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Speaker 1: On any golf course, the greens are the center of gravity.

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Speaker 1: About forty percent of the shots you hit in a

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Speaker 1: given round on a regulation course will be putts. Around

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Speaker 1: half or more than half of the shots that you

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Speaker 1: hit will be either putts or chips, and any approach

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Speaker 1: shot that you hit, at least any decent approach shot

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Speaker 1: you hit, will interact with the green or it surrounds.

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Speaker 1: So today's topic is a very important one. In this

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Speaker 1: installment of our Golf Architecture one oh one series, we're

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Speaker 1: talking about greens, how they're designed, how they're built, and

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Speaker 1: what makes a good one. I'm Garrett Morrison and this

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Speaker 1: is designing golf as usual in Golf Architecture one oh one.

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Speaker 1: I am joined by my colleague PJ Clark. How you doing, PJ? Hello.

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Speaker 2: I'm excited for this one.

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Speaker 3: Unlike I would say the majority of our prior Golf

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Speaker 3: Architecture one on one experiences, I truly have no idea

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Speaker 3: what I'm walking into today, so I'm very excited for this.

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Speaker 1: So what is it about the topic of greens that

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Speaker 1: that kind of opens up possibilities for you or it

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Speaker 1: makes you wonder where we might be gone with this?

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Speaker 3: I feel like in prior episodes there was maybe a

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Speaker 3: little bit of homework, So I have I had done

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Speaker 3: something no homework. I've done absolutely nothing to get prepared

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Speaker 3: for this. There's not like a It's very open ended,

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Speaker 3: as you just alluded to. Feels like a lot of

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Speaker 3: directions we could go here. Whereas you know, we were

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Speaker 3: doing a history lesson or Mackenzie thirteen principles all things

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Speaker 3: like that, it's very confined to this one specific segment.

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Speaker 3: Whereas greens there are a lot of them. There's actually

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Speaker 3: eighteen of them on basically every golf course possible, So

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Speaker 3: I feel like there's unlimited possibilities that you're about to

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Speaker 3: hit me with right now.

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Speaker 1: It's a big topic, partly because of how important greens

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Speaker 1: are in golf architecture. So yeah, a number of different

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Speaker 1: things that we could talk about related to greens. You know,

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Speaker 1: just to start off, do you have any takes about greens?

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Speaker 1: Have you have you thought about green design, green architecture before? What?

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Speaker 1: What do you like or not like in greens? Have

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Speaker 1: any thoughts come to your mind about this area of

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Speaker 1: golf course design before?

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Speaker 3: Not particularly, I'm when I'm out there playing golf poorly,

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Speaker 3: I'm really just focused on how am I getting the

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Speaker 3: ball in the hole. So I think, you know, there

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Speaker 3: are greens, you know, like punch bowls or funnels, you

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Speaker 3: know those are fun for somebody that's bad that I

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Speaker 3: get to, like, you know, ride a little ridge that

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Speaker 3: could get me closer to the hole. Again, the ball

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Speaker 3: of the games about getting the ball in the hole.

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Speaker 3: But no, I can't say it's something that I actively

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Speaker 3: think about. I understand I'm probably wrong in doing that,

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Speaker 3: so excited to learn why.

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Speaker 1: No, there's no wrong or right here. You know, if

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Speaker 1: you enjoy punch balls, you enjoy punch bowls, that's you know,

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Speaker 1: who doesn't on occasion like to see their ball actually

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Speaker 1: go toward the hole when it gets on the edge

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Speaker 1: of a green Once in a while, Yeah, just once

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Speaker 1: in a while. So you know, I wanted to do

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Speaker 1: this episode partly because we have to do this episode

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Speaker 1: in any kind of one on one series, you got

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Speaker 1: to talk about greens eventually, but also more specifically because

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Speaker 1: I've often seen a divide in the way that greens

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Speaker 1: are discussed among golfers. When non architecture geeks say that

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Speaker 1: a course has good greens, they're typically talking about the

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Speaker 1: condition of those greens, right, they're talking about whether they

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Speaker 1: roll smoothly and quickly. That's good versus bad grains. Good

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Speaker 1: greens are in good shape, bad greens are in bad shape.

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Speaker 1: Is that's something that you've you've picked up on among

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Speaker 1: just among the among the gem pop.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely than thousand percent.

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Speaker 3: That would would basically be the way I or any

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Speaker 3: of my friends would refer to to greens on whether

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Speaker 3: they're beat up or not more than anything else.

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Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, if you want to get along with people

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Speaker 1: in a normal way, if you just want to be normal,

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Speaker 1: then this is this is how you talk about greens.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I get that, So I certainly have that box check.

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Speaker 1: Now when architecture heads say good greens, I think they

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Speaker 1: mean something very different, right, And and that's gonna that's

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Speaker 1: going to kind of be the governing principle of our

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Speaker 1: episode here. What makes a good green beyond it just

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Speaker 1: being smooth and fast? In other words, what makes a

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Speaker 1: green well designed, not just well conditioned. A lot of

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Speaker 1: this is obviously subjective, so so we'll discuss that as

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Speaker 1: we go along. You know, not everybody has to like

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Speaker 1: the same type of design and greens. But I think

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Speaker 1: there's a lot more to this subject than just the

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Speaker 1: condition of the greens, though we will talk about how

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Speaker 1: greens can come to be well conditioned because that has

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Speaker 1: to do with design and construction as well. So admittedly

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Speaker 1: a pretty daunting topic to cover in one episode. You know,

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Speaker 1: in my intro I talked about how many of the

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Speaker 1: shots we hit during a normal round that interact with

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Speaker 1: greens thirty to forty putts per round, depending on how

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Speaker 1: we're putting, you know, a handful of chips and pitches

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Speaker 1: and recoveries from greenside bunkers, and then of course eighteen

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Speaker 1: approach shots assuming those approaches get somewhere in the vicinity

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Speaker 1: of the green. All of these all of these shots

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Speaker 1: are in some way or another engaging with the design

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Speaker 1: and the condition of the greens. So it stands to reason,

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Speaker 1: of course that a golf architect would put an inordinate

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Speaker 1: amount of effort into the design and construction of greens.

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Speaker 1: So very high stakes portion of the golf course for

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Speaker 1: an architect, right.

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Speaker 2: It's a good way of putting it a tie stakes.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it is arguably the most important part, as you

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Speaker 3: said there, So yeah, that's a good way of putting it.

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Speaker 1: If you screw up the greens. Nobody's happy with you.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, now you're spending a lot of time on them,

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Speaker 3: So yeah, that makes sense.

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Speaker 1: All the details need to be right. And the result

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Speaker 1: of this is that greens are the most heavily artificial

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Speaker 1: components of any golf course, especially on a modern golf course.

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Speaker 1: They are more intensively shaped than anything else. They have

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Speaker 1: more drainage and irrigation infrastructure than anything else. So if

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Speaker 1: you really want to assess the abilities of an architect

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Speaker 1: and a construction crew, you need to start with the greens.

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Speaker 1: You look at the greens first to see to see

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Speaker 1: how an architect has performed, and besides that, they just

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Speaker 1: naturally attract the attention of the golfer. CB McDonald had

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Speaker 1: a great quote about this, our old friend C. B. McDonald.

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Speaker 1: He said, putting greens to a golf course are what

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Speaker 1: the face is to a portrait. The clothes the subject wears,

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Speaker 1: the background, whether scenery or whether draperies are simply accessories.

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Speaker 1: The face tells the story and determines the character and

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Speaker 1: quality of the portrait, whether it is good or bad.

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Speaker 1: I think that puts it pretty well. If you have

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Speaker 1: good greens, you probably have a good golf course. The

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Speaker 1: character of the greens is, to a significant degree the

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Speaker 1: character of the golf course. When we take photos of

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Speaker 1: golf courses, think about what you're pointing your camera at.

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Speaker 1: You know, usually you're pointing it at a green, and

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Speaker 1: that is because, yes, indeed, the greens are are the face,

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Speaker 1: and you know, the golf course doesn't really make sense

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Speaker 1: without them. Now, before we get to what makes a

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Speaker 1: good green, because that's the main thing I want to

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Speaker 1: talk about today, what makes a good green, let's talk

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Speaker 1: quickly about Volume two of Frida Egg Golf's coffee table book,

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Speaker 1: Got to do This right, PJ.

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Speaker 2: A lot of greens in this In this book, I

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Speaker 2: would assume a.

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Speaker 1: Lot of photos of greens, a lot of discussion of greens,

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Speaker 1: a lot of good stuff about if you're interested in

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Speaker 1: green design. It's available for pre order right now. Volume

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Speaker 1: two of our Coffee table book. This is our second

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Speaker 1: collection of course profiles, and I think they really give

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Speaker 1: a sense of what we prioritize in golf course coverage.

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Speaker 1: You know, we do hit some we do hit some

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Speaker 1: legendary courses like like Oakmont, North Barrack, Fisher's Island or

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Speaker 1: All Saint George's Pineish number two. But we also show

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Speaker 1: the other side of the coin. Courses like wild Horse

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Speaker 1: in St. Andrew's Beach, two of the best that you

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Speaker 1: can play anywhere for less than one hundred dollars. Both

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Speaker 1: have fantastic greens. In fact, actually Saint Andrew's Beach, a

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Speaker 1: green at Saint Andrew's Beach is going to come up today.

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Speaker 1: We also have a little chapter on on North Haven,

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Speaker 1: a tiny nine holer on the on an island off

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Speaker 1: the coast of Maine, one of my favorite chapters the book.

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Speaker 1: So you know, a big range of golf course coverage here,

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Speaker 1: and you know this is volume two of our of

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Speaker 1: our coffee table book. But it's not like you have

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Speaker 1: to read volume one in order to understand Volume two.

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Speaker 1: This is this is a fresh new collection with its

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Speaker 1: own identity, and we're really proud of it. I think

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Speaker 1: it's extremely beautiful. And I can say that because I

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Speaker 1: had very little to do with the uh you know,

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Speaker 1: only a few of my photographs are actually in the book,

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Speaker 1: and the design of the book was completely out of

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Speaker 1: my hands. And so yeah, it looks it looks awesome.

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Speaker 1: Pre Orders are open now through September fourth to begin

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Speaker 1: shipping on October seventh. Go grab yours at pro shop

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Speaker 1: dot the fried egg dot com. All right, PJ, Let's

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Speaker 1: get into the factors that make a good or well

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Speaker 1: designed green. The first factor is obviously location. Now we

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Speaker 1: talked a bit about this in our one oh one

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Speaker 1: episode on routing right. Finding well suited compelling sites for greens.

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Speaker 1: That means you can, you know, construct the green in

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Speaker 1: a simpler and more efficient way, and you get more

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Speaker 1: natural results. You don't have to completely manufacture a green

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Speaker 1: if you find a good site for it. You want

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Speaker 1: a variety of green sites throughout the course. You know,

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Speaker 1: you can put greens on ridges, you can put them

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Speaker 1: in valleys, you can put them on knolls or in saddles.

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Speaker 1: You can put them on slopes of various kinds, you know,

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Speaker 1: back to front, front to back side slopes. You know,

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Speaker 1: one thing that I always do when I'm walking through

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Speaker 1: a golf course is I look at what the green

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Speaker 1: site is. And sometimes it's hard to tell, because again

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Speaker 1: greens are heavily artificial, and it can be tough to

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Speaker 1: tell what the natural environment initially was. But if you

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Speaker 1: look around the green, look at the terrain, look at

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Speaker 1: what the general kind of movement of the land is doing.

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Speaker 1: Then you can get a sense for what the original

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Speaker 1: location of the green was and get a sense for

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Speaker 1: how much variety the course has achieved in green sites,

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Speaker 1: Courses where every single green is on a ridge or

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Speaker 1: every single green is in a valley are likely to

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Speaker 1: start to feel a little bit repetitive. So you know,

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Speaker 1: my favorite greens, I think are the ones that really

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Speaker 1: use their natural landscapes and don't rely too much on

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Speaker 1: manufactured features for their identity. They may have manufactured features,

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Speaker 1: but the essential character of the green kind of comes

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Speaker 1: from its location. Does that make sense?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I think that.

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Speaker 3: I'm now going through I haven't played a ton of

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Speaker 3: DELF recently, but I got to play yesterday. So now

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Speaker 3: I'm going through yesterday and trying to think back to

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Speaker 3: of green sites and seeing if I came up with

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Speaker 3: anything or missed anything.

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Speaker 2: This is a great picture here.

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Speaker 1: Well, I just brought up a slide show. Now for

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Speaker 1: those who are listening audio only, don't worry. I'm going

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Speaker 1: to describe what's on the slides in a basic way,

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Speaker 1: and it's not going to be totally essential to the

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Speaker 1: experience of this podcast, but we will show some photos

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Speaker 1: of various greens on you in this slide show and

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Speaker 1: they'll be available on YouTube and all that. So the

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Speaker 1: green that I'm showing PJ right now is the third

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Speaker 1: green at Saint Andrew's Beach, a lovely tom Doak golf

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Speaker 1: course in Australia on the Mornington Peninsula. And the reason

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Speaker 1: I chose the third green is that it just has

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Speaker 1: a wonderful natural location and the green just sits in it.

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Speaker 1: It basically sits in a high saddle. There's a ridge

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Speaker 1: and there's kind of a natural notch in that ridge

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Speaker 1: where the green is sitting. And you know, this green

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Speaker 1: derives its character from the landscape. A great site was found,

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Speaker 1: a natural site was found for this green, and that's

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Speaker 1: where it gets its personality from. So these are the

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Speaker 1: kinds of greens that I personally really enjoy, you know,

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Speaker 1: because you're not relying too much on artificiality to create interest.

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Speaker 1: So that is the third green at Saint Andrew's Beach.

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Speaker 1: Any impressions from this photo as you're looking at it

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Speaker 1: right now, PJ.

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Speaker 3: Well, I mean it looks like it's supposed to be there,

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Speaker 3: which I think is kind of what you're getting at right,

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Speaker 3: like it looks obviously trees or bushes, shrubbery was cleared out,

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Speaker 3: but it looks like it is just fits in the

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Speaker 3: surrounding environment, like it was just a patch in the

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Speaker 3: middle of these trees that they stuck a flag in.

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Speaker 3: Like it doesn't look like anything was, you know, move

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Speaker 3: too much or out of place, which is appealing to

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Speaker 3: the eye certainly, like it.

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Speaker 1: Was meant to be a green, and it might be

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Speaker 1: something that you don't even notice as you're playing golf.

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Speaker 1: You're just like, oh, there's a green. But that can

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Speaker 1: be a good thing that a you know, a green

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Speaker 1: does not take you out of the flow of the round,

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Speaker 1: doesn't take you out of the experience. You just feel

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Speaker 1: like you're experiencing the landscape and that the holes are

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Speaker 1: sitting on the land in a way that feels inevitable

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Speaker 1: or natural, and it doesn't even jump out to you.

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Speaker 1: That can be a good thing because you can focus

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Speaker 1: on other things you don't you aren't focusing on what

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Speaker 1: the architect did. But the architect did a lot here.

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Speaker 1: Tom Doak chose a really good site for the green

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Speaker 1: and made the choice not to do much to it.

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Speaker 1: So that's three at St. Andrew's Beach. That's an example

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Speaker 1: of how we'll go through some of these slides here.

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Speaker 1: We won't again it's an audio medium primarily here, but

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Speaker 1: you'll see some of this stuff on YouTube if you

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Speaker 1: want to. All Right, the second big factor PJ that

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Speaker 1: I think makes a good green after choosing the location

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Speaker 1: is drainage. This isn't the sexiest topic in the world,

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Speaker 1: but it is probably the aspect of green design that

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Speaker 1: architects think about the most and players think about the least. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and yeah, and yet it's it's so important, right it is.

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Speaker 1: When you talk to architects about building greens, they just

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Speaker 1: talk to you about drainage. I mean, the fund design

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Speaker 1: stuff is it comes up later. One component of drainage

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Speaker 1: is obviously site selection. What we just talked about location.

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Speaker 1: You know, you choose locations that naturally drain well, which

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Speaker 1: is why on older courses you often see greens on ridges,

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Speaker 1: greens on high points, or if they're lower, you see

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Speaker 1: greens kind of next to creeks or natural ditches or

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Speaker 1: other drainage elements that were just in the landscape, so

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Speaker 1: that the water goes off the green and onto this

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Speaker 1: lower ground. So finding sites where there's lower ground around

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Speaker 1: it can really help and saw that with the the

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Speaker 1: third hole at San Andrew's Beach. Even though it's kind

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Speaker 1: of sitting low in its a media environment, there are

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Speaker 1: places where it naturally water will naturally drain away from it.

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Speaker 1: Another component of drainage is conjuring. Greens need to be

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Speaker 1: molded so that the water funnels off and either spreads

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Speaker 1: out or goes into drains. So you can't have places

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Speaker 1: on the green where the water pools right, and there

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Speaker 1: are various ways of doing this. You know, this is

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Speaker 1: sometimes where architects can get into a little bit of

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Speaker 1: trouble because if you're contouring the greens so that it

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Speaker 1: drains off, sometimes you do that in ways that don't

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Speaker 1: look very natural or that look contrived in some way.

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Speaker 1: And you know, often on greens that I would consider

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Speaker 1: kind of poorly shaped or poorly executed. You see what

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Speaker 1: are called catch basins, right, and catch basins are these

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Speaker 1: kind of swales around a green with drains at the

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Speaker 1: bottom of them. Sometimes you see them in fair ways

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Speaker 1: as well, where you know the water will obviously just

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Speaker 1: you know, run into the swale and go down the drain.

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Speaker 1: But when you look at them, it's like, oh, well,

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Speaker 1: that's just that's basically just a gutter sitting there around

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Speaker 1: the green. And you know, catch basins can be necessary sometimes,

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Speaker 1: especially on sites that don't naturally have soils that drain quickly,

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Speaker 1: but they have to be executed in ways that don't

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Speaker 1: call attention to themselves. And I'll show you an example

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Speaker 1: here from Bandon Dunes of a green surrounded by catch

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Speaker 1: basins that I think kind of jump out to the

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Speaker 1: eye and do call attention to themselves in a way

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Speaker 1: that I don't find particularly attractive. So this is the

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Speaker 1: third hole Abandoned Dunes. It's a photo from behind the green,

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Speaker 1: and what we see are kind of these symmetrical swales

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Speaker 1: all around the green, each of which has a drain

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Speaker 1: at the bottom of it. And I just think this

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Speaker 1: green could have been carried out in a more kind

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Speaker 1: of naturalistic way that these drainage elements could have could

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Speaker 1: have been executed better. Now I love this golf course.

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Speaker 1: I think Bandon Dunes is a great golf course, but

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Speaker 1: this is one green where where I think, you know,

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Speaker 1: probably the construction crew could have could have done a

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Speaker 1: little bit better. Does that does that?

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Speaker 3: Uh?

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Speaker 1: Can you see what I'm talking about in in this

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Speaker 1: uh in this image PJ.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I I mean it, at least in a way

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Speaker 3: I understand your your critique from this aerial view. At

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Speaker 3: least it's like, I don't think it's unappealing to look

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Speaker 3: at I I I don't mind like the symmetry. It

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Speaker 3: looks a little kind of even on all sides there

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Speaker 3: that in the catch basins, but the existence of the

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Speaker 3: catch basins, I understand what you're you're you're getting at

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Speaker 3: for sure.

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Speaker 1: Okay, that was a quick rundown of green construction and drainage.

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Speaker 1: You know. Just keep in mind that this is what

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Speaker 1: this is what architects are talking about when they talk

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Speaker 1: about building greens.

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Speaker 3: This is something I've never thought of before in my

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Speaker 3: entire life. So I'm I'm I'm here, this is this

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Speaker 3: is already a win. I think for this episode of

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Speaker 3: Golf Architecture, what I want.

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Speaker 1: Perfect Let's get to the third factor that I think

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Speaker 1: makes for a good green, and that is the green's

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Speaker 1: relationship with the rest of the whole. We've talked about

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Speaker 1: this before on Golf Architecture one oh one. This is

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Speaker 1: kind of the central aspect of strategic golf architecture, What

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Speaker 1: is the relationship between the green and what's going on

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Speaker 1: in the fair way and the tea shot. A good green,

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Speaker 1: I think determines the strategic character of the whole. That's

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Speaker 1: the green to tea thinking that we have developed in

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Speaker 1: some past episodes of golf Architecture one O one thinking

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Speaker 1: from the green backwards. The green is really the first

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Speaker 1: thing that you need to contemplate before you understand a

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Speaker 1: golf hole, and I think it's good greens that give

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Speaker 1: you something rich to think about. So the first aspect

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Speaker 1: of the relationship between the green and the rest of

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Speaker 1: the hole is size and receptiveness. Generally, the longer the

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Speaker 1: average approach shot, the bigger and more receptive the green.

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Speaker 1: Large greens allow for more margin for air and kind

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Speaker 1: of suit. The dispersion patterns of longer clubs, broad open

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Speaker 1: fronts with contours that help the ball onto the green

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Speaker 1: can also be used when you're dealing with a long

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Speaker 1: approach shot, so a long par three, a long par four,

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Speaker 1: Generally what you want to see is a larger and

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Speaker 1: more receptive green. And so an example of the distinction

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Speaker 1: between a green that can receive a short approach shot

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Speaker 1: versus a long approach shot would be on the one hand,

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Speaker 1: the seventh hole at Pebble Beach par three, famous par

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Speaker 1: three about it, you know, one hundred or so yard shot,

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Speaker 1: and the green is tiny. Now it has shrunk over time.

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Speaker 1: It's probably smaller than it should be, but certainly it

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Speaker 1: was designed to be partly because the shot that you're

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Speaker 1: hitting into it is very short, and that that size

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Speaker 1: suits the scale of the shot. At the other end

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Speaker 1: of the spectrum, maybe you have a green like the

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Speaker 1: third at Chicago Golf Club, which is a Birt's template,

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Speaker 1: a long par three where players are supposed to be

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Speaker 1: hitting long irons or even woods. And what you see

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Speaker 1: here is a nice big run up into the green,

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Speaker 1: a broad open front. The bunkers are along the sides

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Speaker 1: of the hole, and what you have is a nice

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Speaker 1: big fairway where you can land your ball and let

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Speaker 1: it run up onto the green. And then the green

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Speaker 1: itself is very large, broad receptive, accommodating, but still interesting

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Speaker 1: because you have that little swale in front of it,

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Speaker 1: and so you can kind of run your ball through

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Speaker 1: that swale. And you know, of course it's not an

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Speaker 1: easy shot still because the size of the green is

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Speaker 1: suited to the size of the possible misses that you

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Speaker 1: would have with those longer clubs. So green size is

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Speaker 1: a key component of that relationship between the green and

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Speaker 1: the rest of the hole. But I do think that

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Speaker 1: sometimes this rule is worth violating because it can create

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Speaker 1: really interesting and exciting situations if the green is out

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Speaker 1: of scale with the length of shot being hit. So

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Speaker 1: think about the road hole. What makes that hole exciting, Well,

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Speaker 1: it's the fact that the green is too small for

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Speaker 1: the length of second shot that you're heading into it.

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Speaker 1: And probably part of the reason it's that size is

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Speaker 1: that the hole started as a part five and people

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Speaker 1: were expected to be hitting short third shots into it

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Speaker 1: as opposed to long second shots. But now that we're

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Speaker 1: more commonly hitting long second shots into the well, that's

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00:23:00,840 --> 00:23:05,399
Speaker 1: that's really quite a moment because the green is so

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00:23:05,520 --> 00:23:10,159
Speaker 1: fiercely guarded and it provides such a fine margin for

401
00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:13,480
Speaker 1: error that you just have to pay attention when somebody

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Speaker 1: is hitting hitting a shot into the seventeenth green at

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Speaker 1: Saint Andrew's. So architects can play with the scale of

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Speaker 1: the green in ways that can be interesting, right, And

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Speaker 1: that's one of the kind of mysteries of golf architecture.

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Speaker 1: That's that's where some of the art comes in. When

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Speaker 1: does an architect violate the usual norms of golf course design?

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Speaker 1: You know what I mean?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Well it feels like certainly something you not to

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Speaker 3: say that you can't, but you you shouldn't overdo, right.

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Speaker 3: I think there's there's probably a level to having too

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Speaker 3: many small greens for longer approach chats and ending up

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Speaker 3: and too many bunkers or whatever else that that green.

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Speaker 2: Is not receptive too.

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Speaker 3: But I definitely think some you know, it's always good

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Speaker 3: to get a visual or even strategic kind of change up.

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Speaker 3: Like if I saw this screen at Chicago Golf Club, Like, yeah,

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Speaker 3: there's a lot there's a lot of room for error

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Speaker 3: because you're presumably hitting a longer club in I think

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Speaker 3: there's a way to me, I feel like, I don't

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Speaker 3: know when I look at that, there's way more It

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Speaker 3: seems more fun. You could get way more creative than

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Speaker 3: I you know, the seventh Old Puebble Beach where there's

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Speaker 3: not you have one option, right, like you have to

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Speaker 3: fly it all the way down there and whatever happens happens.

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Speaker 3: Where you could run run something up here and run

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Speaker 3: it through the middle and get it to the back

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Speaker 3: tier there. I if you gave me the option, I

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Speaker 3: feel like, I don't know, seeing the ball on the

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Speaker 3: ground more, I would take that over the alternative.

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Speaker 1: Which is why long approach shots can be so great, right,

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Speaker 1: And it's what we're missing in pro golf right now,

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Speaker 1: is that that spectacle of the ball on the ground.

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Speaker 1: And you know, it's part of why us opens off

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00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:15,920
Speaker 1: and have a long par three makes the players really mad.

436
00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:18,919
Speaker 1: But guess what, when you have long par threes, the

437
00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:21,760
Speaker 1: ball is much more likely to be on the ground

438
00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:25,399
Speaker 1: in entertaining ways. So yeah, I mean going back to

439
00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:27,480
Speaker 1: the seventh green at Pebble Beach, if you had this

440
00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:30,240
Speaker 1: green on a two hundred and fifty yard hole, I'm

441
00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:32,080
Speaker 1: not saying that that would be a good or exciting

442
00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:35,440
Speaker 1: hole at all, right, you know that would be you

443
00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:38,439
Speaker 1: could critique that hole for having a green that's kind

444
00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:40,760
Speaker 1: of out of scale, out of character with the nature

445
00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:43,920
Speaker 1: of the approach shot. But the example of the road

446
00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:47,400
Speaker 1: hole tells you that there's some wiggle room there, there's

447
00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:49,919
Speaker 1: some room to play there. You can you don't have

448
00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:53,959
Speaker 1: to just follow the rules when it comes to the

449
00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:57,280
Speaker 1: size of the green in relation to the length of

450
00:25:57,320 --> 00:26:00,440
Speaker 1: the approach shot. Okay, so size of green is one

451
00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:03,639
Speaker 1: important factor in the relationship between the green and the

452
00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:07,439
Speaker 1: rest of the hole. The other big factor that I

453
00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:10,480
Speaker 1: want to touch on briefly, and only briefly because we've

454
00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:13,280
Speaker 1: already discussed it so much in past episodes of Golf

455
00:26:13,359 --> 00:26:16,240
Speaker 1: Architecture one on one has to do with the orientation

456
00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:20,080
Speaker 1: of the green and the hazards around it. You can

457
00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:24,679
Speaker 1: have an angled green that provides the friendliest landing zone

458
00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:28,760
Speaker 1: to you know, the advantageous side of the fairway that

459
00:26:28,840 --> 00:26:30,840
Speaker 1: kind of opens up to one side of the fairway

460
00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:32,960
Speaker 1: that is maybe difficult to get to and you want

461
00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:36,080
Speaker 1: to give the player a reward for forgetting to that

462
00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:40,040
Speaker 1: side of the fairway. You can have uneven hazard arrangements,

463
00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:43,320
Speaker 1: so a bunker in front of one side of the green,

464
00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:45,280
Speaker 1: but not in front of the other side of the green.

465
00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:48,600
Speaker 1: Bunker's just just on one side, just guarding one side,

466
00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:50,960
Speaker 1: so that you can kind of play around and have

467
00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:57,560
Speaker 1: an opening into the green. Now, those two factors can

468
00:26:57,600 --> 00:27:01,880
Speaker 1: be certainly combined. Right, have an angled green, you can

469
00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:06,400
Speaker 1: have uneven hazard arrangements on the same green. The same

470
00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:10,439
Speaker 1: is true of the third factor here, and that is

471
00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:17,640
Speaker 1: tiltep the most underrated component of a strategic golf hole.

472
00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:22,159
Speaker 1: I think a tilted green that provides a backstop for

473
00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:25,120
Speaker 1: the advantageous side of the fairway, and if you're kind

474
00:27:25,119 --> 00:27:27,080
Speaker 1: of on the wrong side of the fairway, then the

475
00:27:27,119 --> 00:27:30,199
Speaker 1: green runs away from you a little bit. And one

476
00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:33,720
Speaker 1: of my favorite examples of the use of tilt in

477
00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:37,280
Speaker 1: strategic golf architecture is the tenth hole at Augusta National.

478
00:27:38,359 --> 00:27:43,240
Speaker 1: This green is so tilted from right to left, and

479
00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:45,720
Speaker 1: then there's also a bunker just on the right side,

480
00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:50,040
Speaker 1: So that's an example of an uneven hazard arrangement around

481
00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:53,439
Speaker 1: the green. Clearly, the preferred side of the fairway is

482
00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:56,720
Speaker 1: the left here, because you're hitting into the tilt of

483
00:27:56,720 --> 00:27:58,720
Speaker 1: the green. If you're on the right side of the fairway,

484
00:27:59,280 --> 00:28:01,840
Speaker 1: which is where the photo happens to be taken from

485
00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:04,920
Speaker 1: that we're looking at right now, then you're really kind

486
00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:09,520
Speaker 1: of playing across that slope in the difficult way. Your

487
00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:11,720
Speaker 1: ball is going to land and kind of shoot forward,

488
00:28:12,119 --> 00:28:14,639
Speaker 1: whereas if you get over to the left, then your

489
00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:17,840
Speaker 1: ball is going to have more of a tendency to

490
00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:20,199
Speaker 1: stop on the green. But it's tough to get to

491
00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:21,480
Speaker 1: the left side of the fairway because you have to

492
00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:24,399
Speaker 1: hook it around the trees, et cetera. This is how

493
00:28:25,040 --> 00:28:30,120
Speaker 1: green design can enhance strategic golf architecture. So I would

494
00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:34,120
Speaker 1: say if the green's orientation and hazards correspond in some

495
00:28:34,240 --> 00:28:37,320
Speaker 1: kind of logical and interesting way to the design of

496
00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:39,880
Speaker 1: the rest of the hole, that is a big part

497
00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:43,440
Speaker 1: of saying this is a good green. You know, that

498
00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:49,400
Speaker 1: is a key component, all right, So that does it

499
00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:52,680
Speaker 1: for the greens relationship with the rest of the hole.

500
00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:57,280
Speaker 1: We have a few more ideas to get to about

501
00:28:57,280 --> 00:28:59,640
Speaker 1: what makes a good green, but first I want to

502
00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:03,480
Speaker 1: talk about our friends at the Golf Course Superintendent's Association

503
00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:07,720
Speaker 1: of America or GCSAA. This partnership makes a lot of

504
00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:10,720
Speaker 1: sense for us at Friday Golf. Really, our company would

505
00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:13,200
Speaker 1: not exist in its current form today without the help

506
00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:17,760
Speaker 1: and kindness of superintendents. Many of these photos that I'm

507
00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:22,600
Speaker 1: showing to PJ right now in this episode our photos

508
00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:25,360
Speaker 1: that we took because we kind of snuck onto the

509
00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:29,800
Speaker 1: golf course through the maintenance facility. Many mornings we have

510
00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:33,960
Speaker 1: arrived early and emparked our cars in the maintenance facility

511
00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:36,600
Speaker 1: and then gone out onto the golf course to explore

512
00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:40,640
Speaker 1: it and take photos. GCSAA supports more than twenty one

513
00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:44,800
Speaker 1: thousand members worldwide, not only golf course superintendents, but also

514
00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:50,200
Speaker 1: equipment managers, students, and educators. Celebrating its one hundredth anniversary

515
00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:53,760
Speaker 1: this year, GCSAA continues to ensure that its members are

516
00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:57,960
Speaker 1: on the forefront of research, education, innovation, and advocacy through

517
00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:01,280
Speaker 1: a range of programs and services. To learn more, go

518
00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:06,040
Speaker 1: to GCSAA dot org. Check it out. Great organization and

519
00:30:06,120 --> 00:30:10,960
Speaker 1: we're very proud to be working with them. Okay, Next

520
00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:14,880
Speaker 1: up on the docket, PJ for what makes a great green?

521
00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:19,440
Speaker 1: I think we have to consider the examination of a

522
00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:23,840
Speaker 1: player's skill here, and this brings in the subject of

523
00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:29,760
Speaker 1: severity and the subject of consequences for poorly played or

524
00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:35,560
Speaker 1: inaccurate approaches. The right amount of severity and consequence can

525
00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:42,560
Speaker 1: make greens very exciting and properly testing of a player's skill. Right.

526
00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:46,640
Speaker 1: The test is of approach, play, short game shots and putting.

527
00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:51,640
Speaker 1: Augusta National is the ultimate example. Those greens are so

528
00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:59,120
Speaker 1: testing partly because of their severity. Shinnecock Hills also has

529
00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:03,040
Speaker 1: some great ones, very severe greens not in the same

530
00:31:03,040 --> 00:31:06,160
Speaker 1: way as Augustus, though, whereas Augusta Nationals greens have severe

531
00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:11,520
Speaker 1: undulation and tilt, a couple of Shinnacock's have some tilt

532
00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:14,520
Speaker 1: as well. A lot of the danger at Shinnecock Hills

533
00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:19,920
Speaker 1: as greens is around the greens, Right, it's the consequences

534
00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:27,680
Speaker 1: from misplayed approaches. So severity and consequence are are key

535
00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:31,200
Speaker 1: parts of what makes a green testing. But you can

536
00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:34,920
Speaker 1: also have too much of those things, right, Yeah, it

537
00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:40,960
Speaker 1: can also become absurd or one dimensional. Do you do?

538
00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:41,040
Speaker 2: You do?

539
00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:42,840
Speaker 1: You do you have an idea of where that line

540
00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:43,400
Speaker 1: is for you?

541
00:31:46,080 --> 00:31:48,440
Speaker 3: I don't know if I if I do, just off

542
00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:52,360
Speaker 3: the top of my head, but I definitely agree with

543
00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:57,640
Speaker 3: the the theory of it being too one dimensional. Like

544
00:31:57,720 --> 00:32:02,400
Speaker 3: if every hole is so rounded by bunkers, if every

545
00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:05,720
Speaker 3: green is surrounded by bunkers and there's no you know,

546
00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:09,640
Speaker 3: runoff area, or if it's just very thick rough around

547
00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:12,680
Speaker 3: every hole and it's the same thing repetitive, I think

548
00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:13,200
Speaker 3: it would be.

549
00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:17,160
Speaker 2: I think it would be just more repetition than anything else.

550
00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:19,360
Speaker 3: If you get up to every green and you're missing

551
00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:21,800
Speaker 3: in the same spots and you're left with the same

552
00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:24,080
Speaker 3: type of shot I feel like that could get very boring.

553
00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:27,600
Speaker 1: We will talk about that later. I think that that

554
00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:30,640
Speaker 1: fits into another category that I want to get into.

555
00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:34,040
Speaker 1: That the nature of the recovery shots that you hit,

556
00:32:34,120 --> 00:32:36,600
Speaker 1: and that is I think that's a super important aspect

557
00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:40,520
Speaker 1: of a great green. It's the variety of recovery shots

558
00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:44,000
Speaker 1: that result from it. But yeah, you know, as it

559
00:32:44,040 --> 00:32:49,640
Speaker 1: relates to severity and consequence, I think that there's such

560
00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:52,720
Speaker 1: a difference between seeing a tournament played at a place

561
00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:57,000
Speaker 1: like Augusta National or Shinnecock Hills and seeing a tournament

562
00:32:57,040 --> 00:33:01,480
Speaker 1: played at a place like Royal Birkdale, or probably the

563
00:33:01,520 --> 00:33:05,960
Speaker 1: better example is Quail Hollow, where there isn't the same

564
00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:09,800
Speaker 1: sense of severity and consequence When an approach shot is

565
00:33:09,840 --> 00:33:13,840
Speaker 1: sailing into a green at Quail Hollow, generally you weren't

566
00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:16,960
Speaker 1: on the edge of your seat wondering what's going to happen,

567
00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:20,840
Speaker 1: whereas you are at augustin Nashvill, you are at Shinnacock

568
00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:23,760
Speaker 1: and you're on the edge of your seat because you're like,

569
00:33:24,120 --> 00:33:28,000
Speaker 1: you know, there could be many outcomes here. And also

570
00:33:28,240 --> 00:33:31,920
Speaker 1: this player is in the midst of demonstrating great skill.

571
00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:35,400
Speaker 1: If they pull off this shot, then they've really done something,

572
00:33:35,720 --> 00:33:38,320
Speaker 1: you know, and if they don't, then something's going to

573
00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:42,800
Speaker 1: happen to them. And that is I think, very satisfying

574
00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:46,440
Speaker 1: to us. But there is a line. There is a line,

575
00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:49,880
Speaker 1: and it doesn't have to do with fairness, I don't think.

576
00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:52,280
Speaker 1: I think it just has to do with the fact

577
00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:58,640
Speaker 1: that overly severe greens, overly punishing greens, do become one

578
00:33:58,680 --> 00:34:03,720
Speaker 1: dimensional ultimately, and I think an example of that is

579
00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:07,200
Speaker 1: that Shinnacock Hills, the seventh hole, the ra Dan hole

580
00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:11,040
Speaker 1: at Chinnacock. Now, I just said Shinnecock's greens are fantastic.

581
00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:12,920
Speaker 1: It's one of the greatest golf courses in the world.

582
00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:16,920
Speaker 1: But I do think the seventh hole at Shinnacock maybe

583
00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:21,239
Speaker 1: just goes a touch too far with the severity. There

584
00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:25,239
Speaker 1: are very few pen positions, and so really it just

585
00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:28,080
Speaker 1: there's one type of shot that you hit on this hole.

586
00:34:29,040 --> 00:34:33,840
Speaker 1: The margins are so fine that, especially when the wind

587
00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:36,640
Speaker 1: is up, I'm not sure it's really a test of

588
00:34:36,640 --> 00:34:38,799
Speaker 1: a player's ability. I think it has more to do

589
00:34:38,840 --> 00:34:42,000
Speaker 1: with just the luck of hitting one patch of grass.

590
00:34:42,040 --> 00:34:47,560
Speaker 1: It's like one yard left of the other patch of grass. Now,

591
00:34:47,560 --> 00:34:52,280
Speaker 1: the main problem here, I think is likely green speeds,

592
00:34:52,640 --> 00:34:56,480
Speaker 1: which we'll talk about later. Okay, the green has become

593
00:34:56,560 --> 00:35:02,160
Speaker 1: so fast that the tilt of it has become too much.

594
00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:04,799
Speaker 1: There are only a couple of places that you can

595
00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:08,520
Speaker 1: really put the pin and have the ball stay stay

596
00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:12,880
Speaker 1: in place, and so I think that's that's more the

597
00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:15,120
Speaker 1: source of the problem than the design of the green.

598
00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:20,279
Speaker 1: But it's definitely still it's entertaining to play. It's a

599
00:35:20,320 --> 00:35:23,840
Speaker 1: tense moment in the round. There is a joy factor

600
00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:27,160
Speaker 1: of watching great players tackle this hole and either get

601
00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:31,279
Speaker 1: rejected or be relieved when when they aren't rejected. But

602
00:35:32,080 --> 00:35:35,640
Speaker 1: for me, it's just it's just a little bit too much.

603
00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:38,480
Speaker 1: It's just over the line. I don't know what your

604
00:35:38,520 --> 00:35:40,839
Speaker 1: reaction to it was. During during the US Open, PJ

605
00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:43,480
Speaker 1: the seventh green at shnakok Ay, I.

606
00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:44,600
Speaker 2: Mean it it did.

607
00:35:44,640 --> 00:35:48,799
Speaker 3: It kind of felt like the same everybody just ended

608
00:35:48,840 --> 00:35:52,759
Speaker 3: up in the same not the same spot, but it

609
00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:56,200
Speaker 3: didn't feel like anybody was just hitting the green. I

610
00:35:56,280 --> 00:35:58,360
Speaker 3: sat there for a while, I think on Friday, and

611
00:35:58,440 --> 00:36:01,560
Speaker 3: it was just like every group that came through it

612
00:36:01,600 --> 00:36:03,919
Speaker 3: was kind of the same thing. It was everybody would miss,

613
00:36:04,040 --> 00:36:06,600
Speaker 3: maybe one guy would stick it, but it was not like.

614
00:36:08,239 --> 00:36:10,000
Speaker 2: I do think there's an aspect to.

615
00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:15,440
Speaker 3: Almost like fifteen at Berkdale last week, Like, I think

616
00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:19,440
Speaker 3: there's something to be said for like a par feeling

617
00:36:19,520 --> 00:36:22,319
Speaker 3: like a birdie and like a major championship round, like

618
00:36:22,360 --> 00:36:25,440
Speaker 3: you're picking up a shot. Three at Shitnacock was like

619
00:36:25,480 --> 00:36:28,560
Speaker 3: that during the weekend too, I think on Saturday, like

620
00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:32,719
Speaker 3: everybody was bogeying three. I do think, like, I think

621
00:36:32,760 --> 00:36:35,960
Speaker 3: there's a real benefit to that in that you can

622
00:36:36,040 --> 00:36:38,520
Speaker 3: gain a shot on the field by just making par.

623
00:36:39,160 --> 00:36:41,760
Speaker 3: But I do think when it's you know, you're getting

624
00:36:41,760 --> 00:36:44,600
Speaker 3: into a spot where everybody is playing the same shot

625
00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:49,359
Speaker 3: or getting rejected to the same area because of a green, Like, yeah,

626
00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:53,120
Speaker 3: that could be a little boring and repetitive for sure.

627
00:36:54,560 --> 00:36:58,359
Speaker 1: I have my issues with the framework of test that

628
00:36:58,400 --> 00:37:01,600
Speaker 1: we often use when we talk talk about championship golf courses,

629
00:37:02,000 --> 00:37:05,000
Speaker 1: But I don't think we should throw that entirely out

630
00:37:05,080 --> 00:37:08,560
Speaker 1: because you know, certainly part of the role of a

631
00:37:08,560 --> 00:37:11,880
Speaker 1: golf course is to examine a player's skill and to

632
00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:15,600
Speaker 1: identify a worthy champion. And there is a point at

633
00:37:15,640 --> 00:37:22,080
Speaker 1: which a test becomes too unachievable. If a test is

634
00:37:21,719 --> 00:37:27,160
Speaker 1: is not passable at a reasonable rate. Then it no

635
00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:32,440
Speaker 1: longer feels like a proper test. And that's the line

636
00:37:32,680 --> 00:37:37,279
Speaker 1: that the seventh hole at Shinnacock is at least right

637
00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:40,840
Speaker 1: at and maybe over now at the other end of

638
00:37:40,880 --> 00:37:45,720
Speaker 1: the spectrum from seven at Shinnacock, you have bowl greens,

639
00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:49,080
Speaker 1: punch bowl greens, greens that funnel to the middle, you know,

640
00:37:49,200 --> 00:37:53,520
Speaker 1: while fun in moderation. While I think they definitely have

641
00:37:53,560 --> 00:37:56,759
Speaker 1: a place on any golf course, they can wear thin

642
00:37:56,920 --> 00:38:01,320
Speaker 1: quickly because they do flatten the difference between rate good

643
00:38:01,960 --> 00:38:05,960
Speaker 1: and average shots, and they and they narrow the range

644
00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:10,480
Speaker 1: of potential outcomes. It it becomes again one dimensionality becomes

645
00:38:10,560 --> 00:38:14,319
Speaker 1: an issue. So this, this subject of the test of

646
00:38:14,360 --> 00:38:17,880
Speaker 1: the player's skill is it's not something that I that

647
00:38:17,960 --> 00:38:21,239
Speaker 1: I think about that often unless I'm like talking with

648
00:38:21,320 --> 00:38:24,240
Speaker 1: Joseph lamani Our, a colleague who who covers professional golf,

649
00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:26,840
Speaker 1: and you know, if I'm if I'm looking at the

650
00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:29,520
Speaker 1: competitive scene, then I'll then I'll think about test more.

651
00:38:30,040 --> 00:38:33,920
Speaker 1: But the more I I I contemplate this this category,

652
00:38:33,920 --> 00:38:35,799
Speaker 1: the more I think, yeah, it is. It is an

653
00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:39,480
Speaker 1: interesting It is an important aspect of of green design

654
00:38:39,560 --> 00:38:43,600
Speaker 1: that the amount of severity, the amount of consequence dialing

655
00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:48,000
Speaker 1: that in to the right level is pretty key, all right.

656
00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:52,880
Speaker 1: Next factor that makes a good green, and we just

657
00:38:52,920 --> 00:38:55,920
Speaker 1: sort of touched on it with seven at Shinnakok. The

658
00:38:56,000 --> 00:39:00,360
Speaker 1: variety of pin positions. A good green I think offers

659
00:39:00,400 --> 00:39:07,800
Speaker 1: a well differentiated range of pin positions pins and different

660
00:39:08,480 --> 00:39:14,160
Speaker 1: sectors of the green. So right, left, back, front, pins

661
00:39:14,200 --> 00:39:18,719
Speaker 1: of varying difficulty. Right, you have some on knobs, some

662
00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:23,439
Speaker 1: on shelves, some in bowls, some near punishing hazards, right,

663
00:39:23,840 --> 00:39:25,480
Speaker 1: some kind of on the edge near it, near a

664
00:39:25,520 --> 00:39:30,000
Speaker 1: bunker where it's the opportunity for recovery is really difficult,

665
00:39:30,760 --> 00:39:34,560
Speaker 1: you know, and then others that offer more margin for air. Yep.

666
00:39:35,920 --> 00:39:39,200
Speaker 1: When you look at a green, when you're playing a green,

667
00:39:39,440 --> 00:39:42,840
Speaker 1: you only see one pin position. But I think a

668
00:39:42,880 --> 00:39:45,319
Speaker 1: good thing to do is to look at the rest

669
00:39:45,360 --> 00:39:47,480
Speaker 1: of the green and consider where the pin can go.

670
00:39:48,640 --> 00:39:52,000
Speaker 1: That's a practice that I think allows people to appreciate

671
00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:55,000
Speaker 1: golf architecture at another level. Not just look at the

672
00:39:55,000 --> 00:39:57,920
Speaker 1: pin that you're playing that day, but look around the

673
00:39:57,920 --> 00:40:01,320
Speaker 1: green and see where the pin could be put. Because

674
00:40:01,320 --> 00:40:05,759
Speaker 1: occasionally a change in pin position changes the character of

675
00:40:05,800 --> 00:40:07,800
Speaker 1: the hole. And here I want to look at the

676
00:40:07,920 --> 00:40:11,600
Speaker 1: ninth Green at Harbortown. Now, if I can describe this

677
00:40:11,640 --> 00:40:15,840
Speaker 1: for audio listeners, it's a crazy looking green, but it

678
00:40:15,960 --> 00:40:23,000
Speaker 1: basically looks like Mickey Mouse. You have two big ears

679
00:40:24,120 --> 00:40:28,879
Speaker 1: and the green kind of forms a boomerang, a reverse boomerang. Right,

680
00:40:30,160 --> 00:40:31,719
Speaker 1: Is that? Have I described that correctly?

681
00:40:32,160 --> 00:40:35,760
Speaker 2: Yeah? I think so. It's like a reverse the Mickey Mouse.

682
00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:36,759
Speaker 2: The Mickey Mouse is.

683
00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:39,680
Speaker 1: The Mickey Mouse. Yeah, just just imagine, just imagine a

684
00:40:39,719 --> 00:40:42,080
Speaker 1: silhouette of Mickey Mouse. So you have these two big

685
00:40:42,120 --> 00:40:45,799
Speaker 1: lobes on the right and the left, and if the

686
00:40:45,840 --> 00:40:47,640
Speaker 1: pin is on the on the one on the right,

687
00:40:48,400 --> 00:40:49,640
Speaker 1: well you kind of want to be on the left

688
00:40:49,680 --> 00:40:52,719
Speaker 1: side of the hole. If the pin is on the

689
00:40:52,760 --> 00:40:54,440
Speaker 1: lobe on the left, well you kind of want to

690
00:40:54,480 --> 00:40:56,960
Speaker 1: be on the right side of the hole. And so

691
00:40:57,640 --> 00:41:02,759
Speaker 1: here the pin position does determine a lot about the

692
00:41:02,840 --> 00:41:06,120
Speaker 1: character of the whole. And I think something that can

693
00:41:06,200 --> 00:41:09,920
Speaker 1: make you say that's a great green is if the

694
00:41:09,960 --> 00:41:13,160
Speaker 1: pin positions are like that. The pin positions really do

695
00:41:13,360 --> 00:41:17,919
Speaker 1: provide a different experience from day to day.

696
00:41:19,960 --> 00:41:21,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think.

697
00:41:22,400 --> 00:41:24,759
Speaker 3: Again, I don't know that it's something that I've ever

698
00:41:24,920 --> 00:41:29,160
Speaker 3: consciously thought about until right now, but yeah, especially if

699
00:41:29,200 --> 00:41:34,399
Speaker 3: it's a course, you're playing a lot. Like you just said,

700
00:41:34,680 --> 00:41:37,480
Speaker 3: the shot on this whole would completely change if it's

701
00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:39,960
Speaker 3: you know, tuck to the right and there's that fall

702
00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:41,719
Speaker 3: off there, like you know where you have to be,

703
00:41:41,960 --> 00:41:46,719
Speaker 3: and it's asking a different question, which is I don't know.

704
00:41:46,760 --> 00:41:48,759
Speaker 3: I think it's cool to have that optionality. I think

705
00:41:48,760 --> 00:41:51,040
Speaker 3: it's probably cool when you're setting up the golf course

706
00:41:51,280 --> 00:41:53,640
Speaker 3: to have an.

707
00:41:53,520 --> 00:41:54,080
Speaker 2: Option to.

708
00:41:55,560 --> 00:41:58,040
Speaker 3: Make people do something completely different. I think it's cool

709
00:41:58,040 --> 00:42:00,880
Speaker 3: if you're playing it for the second or third time whatever,

710
00:42:01,280 --> 00:42:04,560
Speaker 3: that you have a different shot than you had before.

711
00:42:05,719 --> 00:42:07,920
Speaker 2: So yeah, I I you know, just.

712
00:42:09,640 --> 00:42:12,600
Speaker 3: Me knowing nothing objectively speaking, Yeah, it seems like a

713
00:42:12,600 --> 00:42:16,200
Speaker 3: lot of pimpositions is great because why wouldn't it be something.

714
00:42:15,960 --> 00:42:19,840
Speaker 1: Different creates a course within a course, or multiple courses

715
00:42:19,880 --> 00:42:23,799
Speaker 1: within the same course, and that you know, a lot

716
00:42:23,840 --> 00:42:27,239
Speaker 1: of golf courses, especially in the in the early part

717
00:42:27,320 --> 00:42:30,759
Speaker 1: of the twentieth century, were built with the assumption that

718
00:42:30,800 --> 00:42:33,720
Speaker 1: people would be playing them over and over and over again.

719
00:42:34,400 --> 00:42:36,600
Speaker 1: I think we've started to move away from that assumption

720
00:42:36,760 --> 00:42:40,360
Speaker 1: in some modern golf architecture, especially at destination resorts, where

721
00:42:40,800 --> 00:42:43,120
Speaker 1: the assumption is more that people might just be playing

722
00:42:43,200 --> 00:42:47,799
Speaker 1: this course once, Yeah, But there is a level of

723
00:42:47,880 --> 00:42:52,239
Speaker 1: complexity that I think comes from golf architects believing that

724
00:42:52,280 --> 00:42:57,080
Speaker 1: people will play their courses many times. Because if they

725
00:42:57,080 --> 00:43:01,040
Speaker 1: believe that, then they will probably design greens more like

726
00:43:01,080 --> 00:43:05,520
Speaker 1: this one at Harbortown, the ninth Green, where different pin

727
00:43:05,640 --> 00:43:10,400
Speaker 1: positions really do provide a different experience because they're thinking,

728
00:43:10,719 --> 00:43:12,319
Speaker 1: you know, people aren't just going to see one pin

729
00:43:12,400 --> 00:43:15,280
Speaker 1: position at this green, They're going to see multiple ones.

730
00:43:15,600 --> 00:43:17,920
Speaker 1: At tournament courses. It's a good thing to do because

731
00:43:18,480 --> 00:43:21,960
Speaker 1: on different days it's it's a different test, and you

732
00:43:22,040 --> 00:43:24,560
Speaker 1: keep players on their toes. You don't allow them to

733
00:43:24,560 --> 00:43:27,239
Speaker 1: settle into a groove, and that's something you really get

734
00:43:27,239 --> 00:43:29,359
Speaker 1: from the ninth at Harbortown because it is the host

735
00:43:29,440 --> 00:43:30,560
Speaker 1: of the RBC Heritage.

736
00:43:30,920 --> 00:43:33,360
Speaker 3: You also need to make sure that that you don't

737
00:43:33,440 --> 00:43:36,080
Speaker 3: only have pin positions on the right side, because that

738
00:43:36,160 --> 00:43:38,600
Speaker 3: it would not benefit drawers of the golf ball and

739
00:43:38,640 --> 00:43:41,120
Speaker 3: people might tweet about that. So you've got to be

740
00:43:41,160 --> 00:43:43,799
Speaker 3: able to, you know, make sure you stay out of

741
00:43:43,800 --> 00:43:46,880
Speaker 3: the crosshairs from any potential burner accounts on Twitter that

742
00:43:46,920 --> 00:43:49,280
Speaker 3: would tweet about course set up and where the flags

743
00:43:49,360 --> 00:43:51,359
Speaker 3: might be on a given tournament.

744
00:43:51,160 --> 00:43:54,319
Speaker 1: Round the main thing, the main that's the I think.

745
00:43:54,360 --> 00:43:57,080
Speaker 1: I feel like that's the main thing behind decisions and

746
00:43:58,520 --> 00:44:01,520
Speaker 1: course set up, that kind of thing.

747
00:44:01,480 --> 00:44:04,600
Speaker 3: This ever happened before, but if it were to happen,

748
00:44:04,840 --> 00:44:05,640
Speaker 3: you know, you might.

749
00:44:05,520 --> 00:44:06,279
Speaker 2: Want to avoid that.

750
00:44:06,560 --> 00:44:09,879
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that would be crazy if that happened. All Right,

751
00:44:09,920 --> 00:44:12,960
Speaker 1: it's worth taking a little break here, I think to

752
00:44:13,120 --> 00:44:16,919
Speaker 1: talk about green speeds, yeah, because it relates very much

753
00:44:17,040 --> 00:44:22,080
Speaker 1: to this notion of variety and pin positions. So greens

754
00:44:22,160 --> 00:44:28,040
Speaker 1: like those that at Augusta National or Oakmont were designed

755
00:44:28,200 --> 00:44:31,720
Speaker 1: for stimp meter readings in the single digits. Yeah, Oakmont

756
00:44:31,719 --> 00:44:34,759
Speaker 1: has always had relatively fast greens. Augusta National has always

757
00:44:34,800 --> 00:44:37,719
Speaker 1: had relatively fast greens, but relatively is doing a lot

758
00:44:37,719 --> 00:44:41,040
Speaker 1: of work there because back in the you know, even

759
00:44:41,200 --> 00:44:44,759
Speaker 1: just thirty years ago, even forty years ago, greens were

760
00:44:44,800 --> 00:44:48,880
Speaker 1: just way way slower than they are now. The expectations,

761
00:44:48,960 --> 00:44:52,960
Speaker 1: the standards around green speeds were so different just a

762
00:44:52,960 --> 00:44:59,800
Speaker 1: few decades ago. Now, Augusta and Oakmont regularly push thirteen

763
00:45:00,440 --> 00:45:05,640
Speaker 1: to fifteen on the stint meter, and this reduces the

764
00:45:05,680 --> 00:45:10,200
Speaker 1: amount of pinnable area, meaning that pins are put in

765
00:45:10,400 --> 00:45:14,960
Speaker 1: fewer and less interesting positions. When you start to get

766
00:45:15,120 --> 00:45:19,600
Speaker 1: greens that fast, you can't put pins on slopes anymore.

767
00:45:20,040 --> 00:45:21,839
Speaker 1: You have to find the flat areas of the green,

768
00:45:22,520 --> 00:45:25,880
Speaker 1: and again that reduces the amount of pinnable area. It

769
00:45:25,960 --> 00:45:29,919
Speaker 1: reduces the dynamism of the experience from day to day

770
00:45:30,000 --> 00:45:35,240
Speaker 1: because you're taking away from the variety of pin positions. Now,

771
00:45:36,040 --> 00:45:38,719
Speaker 1: that's a less complex test of skill, first of all,

772
00:45:38,880 --> 00:45:42,160
Speaker 1: because puts are going to break less when you put

773
00:45:42,280 --> 00:45:45,400
Speaker 1: pins in flatter areas. If you have pins on slopes,

774
00:45:45,440 --> 00:45:49,040
Speaker 1: then you're more likely to have short puts that you

775
00:45:49,160 --> 00:45:51,640
Speaker 1: have to aim outside the hole to make them. And

776
00:45:51,719 --> 00:45:55,120
Speaker 1: so you know, green speeds flattened the test in that way.

777
00:45:56,480 --> 00:46:00,920
Speaker 1: But the main problem is this is this this issue

778
00:46:00,960 --> 00:46:06,480
Speaker 1: of variety of pin positions. The faster you're greens, the

779
00:46:06,560 --> 00:46:08,840
Speaker 1: fewer the areas that you're going to be able to

780
00:46:08,840 --> 00:46:13,080
Speaker 1: put your pins. And the really unfortunate consequence of high

781
00:46:13,080 --> 00:46:16,000
Speaker 1: green speeds is that a lot of clubs end up

782
00:46:16,040 --> 00:46:19,600
Speaker 1: feeling that they need to soften the slopes of their greens,

783
00:46:19,640 --> 00:46:23,080
Speaker 1: They need to redesign their greens, take away the severity

784
00:46:23,160 --> 00:46:28,040
Speaker 1: and character of their greens, make them flatter, because speeds

785
00:46:27,760 --> 00:46:32,920
Speaker 1: have made the greens dysfunctional have made it so that

786
00:46:33,160 --> 00:46:35,640
Speaker 1: they need to put the pins in the same places

787
00:46:35,640 --> 00:46:38,239
Speaker 1: from day to day. And one thing that happens when

788
00:46:38,239 --> 00:46:40,080
Speaker 1: you put pins in the same places from day to

789
00:46:40,120 --> 00:46:42,360
Speaker 1: day is that the greens get really worn down in

790
00:46:42,400 --> 00:46:44,920
Speaker 1: those particular areas that the wear and tear is not

791
00:46:45,000 --> 00:46:49,120
Speaker 1: spread out as much. And so green speeds are one

792
00:46:49,160 --> 00:46:53,200
Speaker 1: of the biggest problems for golf architecture right now. But

793
00:46:53,280 --> 00:46:56,840
Speaker 1: it's something that people rarely talk about, and it's something

794
00:46:57,040 --> 00:47:00,600
Speaker 1: that it just feels like there's no going back. It

795
00:47:00,640 --> 00:47:03,480
Speaker 1: feels like these clubs are just gonna gonna keep pushing

796
00:47:03,480 --> 00:47:06,440
Speaker 1: the envelope when it when it comes to green speeds.

797
00:47:06,840 --> 00:47:09,160
Speaker 2: Who will be brave enough to go back to single

798
00:47:09,200 --> 00:47:10,360
Speaker 2: digit green speeds?

799
00:47:10,440 --> 00:47:11,080
Speaker 3: Who? Who?

800
00:47:11,080 --> 00:47:15,319
Speaker 4: And when we call on you, yeah, yeah, I mean

801
00:47:16,400 --> 00:47:20,560
Speaker 4: to an extent, Shinnakawk Hills what during this last US

802
00:47:20,640 --> 00:47:23,919
Speaker 4: Open was remarkable because they were only in the ten

803
00:47:24,000 --> 00:47:25,720
Speaker 4: to eleven range.

804
00:47:25,800 --> 00:47:29,799
Speaker 1: It was like, wow, but that's still really fast, you know,

805
00:47:30,480 --> 00:47:33,640
Speaker 1: And it's it is what you're pointing out there, PJ

806
00:47:33,840 --> 00:47:35,520
Speaker 1: is the issue. Who is going to do that? Who's

807
00:47:35,520 --> 00:47:38,480
Speaker 1: gonna stick their neck out and say I'm gonna have

808
00:47:38,560 --> 00:47:42,040
Speaker 1: slower greens? Yeah, you know, there's there's almost kind of

809
00:47:42,080 --> 00:47:45,640
Speaker 1: like a macho aspect to this, where where clubs can't

810
00:47:45,680 --> 00:47:48,400
Speaker 1: be seen as the as the as the WUS that

811
00:47:48,480 --> 00:47:51,640
Speaker 1: has the slower greens, But of course it would be.

812
00:47:51,680 --> 00:47:54,759
Speaker 1: It would be so much better for for the playability

813
00:47:54,800 --> 00:47:58,200
Speaker 1: of the golf course and and for the integrity of

814
00:47:58,440 --> 00:48:01,359
Speaker 1: the design of the greens. So I've just gone on

815
00:48:01,520 --> 00:48:03,279
Speaker 1: a bit of a rant there. I want to do

816
00:48:03,480 --> 00:48:06,839
Speaker 1: a sense check with you. Does that make sense how

817
00:48:06,880 --> 00:48:09,600
Speaker 1: green speeds would relate with design in that way?

818
00:48:10,680 --> 00:48:15,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, because I feel like you can't. I don't know,

819
00:48:15,719 --> 00:48:18,800
Speaker 3: if you have a great amount of slope in these greens,

820
00:48:18,920 --> 00:48:20,919
Speaker 3: or you have a pin on a spot where it's

821
00:48:20,960 --> 00:48:25,759
Speaker 3: not reasonable to you basically have to make it, or

822
00:48:25,840 --> 00:48:29,319
Speaker 3: else you're in ginormous amounts of trouble on a high

823
00:48:29,360 --> 00:48:34,480
Speaker 3: speed green, then like, yeah, of course that's not I

824
00:48:34,520 --> 00:48:37,600
Speaker 3: don't want to call it unplayable, but it's certainly not enjoyable.

825
00:48:37,840 --> 00:48:41,279
Speaker 3: Like I mean, do I care from a professional golf

826
00:48:41,280 --> 00:48:45,920
Speaker 3: standpoint if the pros playing are enjoying the golf course, No,

827
00:48:46,360 --> 00:48:46,840
Speaker 3: I don't.

828
00:48:47,360 --> 00:48:48,040
Speaker 2: But from a.

829
00:48:49,680 --> 00:48:53,319
Speaker 3: Recreational play standpoint, like, yeah, I think you got to

830
00:48:53,400 --> 00:48:56,200
Speaker 3: just you know, give a dog a bone almost here,

831
00:48:56,239 --> 00:48:58,080
Speaker 3: and give people like a fighting chance.

832
00:48:58,160 --> 00:49:01,640
Speaker 2: If you want to do this at a a professional tournament, please,

833
00:49:01,680 --> 00:49:04,279
Speaker 2: by all means turn it up. I'll root for I'll

834
00:49:04,320 --> 00:49:05,359
Speaker 2: root for carnage and.

835
00:49:05,280 --> 00:49:08,080
Speaker 3: People complaining no matter what, because it's it's better for

836
00:49:08,120 --> 00:49:12,880
Speaker 3: everybody that way. But I think who will have the

837
00:49:12,960 --> 00:49:18,600
Speaker 3: courage to go back to intricacies on the greens and

838
00:49:18,719 --> 00:49:21,800
Speaker 3: single digit green speeds. I'm happy to throw that gautlet

839
00:49:21,840 --> 00:49:23,120
Speaker 3: out on your behalf right here.

840
00:49:23,440 --> 00:49:28,160
Speaker 1: Anybody who's not hosting a major tournament, yeah, I think

841
00:49:28,239 --> 00:49:30,960
Speaker 1: doesn't have an excuse. I think you can love that.

842
00:49:31,440 --> 00:49:33,720
Speaker 1: You can do it. You know, you get You're free,

843
00:49:34,160 --> 00:49:38,640
Speaker 1: You're free of the shackles of big time professional golf.

844
00:49:39,000 --> 00:49:41,720
Speaker 1: Your greens can be slower, you can retain some character

845
00:49:41,760 --> 00:49:44,160
Speaker 1: in those greens. You can put the pins in interesting places.

846
00:49:44,200 --> 00:49:47,320
Speaker 1: You just need to grow the grass a little bit higher.

847
00:49:47,440 --> 00:49:50,640
Speaker 1: It doesn't doesn't always need to be doesn't always need

848
00:49:50,680 --> 00:49:54,560
Speaker 1: to be slick. All right, Let's go on to the

849
00:49:54,600 --> 00:49:57,000
Speaker 1: next factor that I think makes for a great green,

850
00:49:57,520 --> 00:50:01,200
Speaker 1: and that is the variety of recovery shots, something that

851
00:50:01,239 --> 00:50:05,319
Speaker 1: you referred to earlier underrated aspect of green design when

852
00:50:05,360 --> 00:50:09,960
Speaker 1: you miss a green, what happens and is it engaging?

853
00:50:10,800 --> 00:50:16,920
Speaker 1: Is it varied? You know, this really highlights the design

854
00:50:16,920 --> 00:50:19,480
Speaker 1: of what's around the putting surface, right, which is just

855
00:50:19,520 --> 00:50:22,000
Speaker 1: as important as what's on the putting surface. When you

856
00:50:22,040 --> 00:50:25,399
Speaker 1: think about recovery shots and what happens when you miss

857
00:50:25,440 --> 00:50:28,040
Speaker 1: the green, then you start to think about something that

858
00:50:28,080 --> 00:50:30,440
Speaker 1: people often don't think about, and that is the design

859
00:50:31,080 --> 00:50:36,440
Speaker 1: of the surrounds. You can have a combination of short grass,

860
00:50:36,960 --> 00:50:42,960
Speaker 1: rough native grass, bunkers, and other hazards, and that combination

861
00:50:43,200 --> 00:50:47,720
Speaker 1: can generate a great deal of variety in the short

862
00:50:47,760 --> 00:50:52,160
Speaker 1: game shots around the green. So can contouring right interesting

863
00:50:52,320 --> 00:50:58,760
Speaker 1: contours around the green. Unexpected contours, unpredictable contours can also

864
00:50:59,160 --> 00:51:03,640
Speaker 1: increase the the energy and dynamism of the short game

865
00:51:03,640 --> 00:51:06,440
Speaker 1: shots that you hit around the green. It's it's a

866
00:51:06,440 --> 00:51:11,320
Speaker 1: way for architects to define better and worse misses around

867
00:51:11,360 --> 00:51:14,480
Speaker 1: the greens. Maybe some places it's really hard to recover.

868
00:51:14,560 --> 00:51:18,840
Speaker 1: From other places you're faced with with more of a simple,

869
00:51:18,920 --> 00:51:23,279
Speaker 1: straightforward chip back onto the putting surface. So there are

870
00:51:23,280 --> 00:51:27,720
Speaker 1: a lot of possibilities that you can pursue around greens

871
00:51:27,760 --> 00:51:32,080
Speaker 1: to create a variety of recovery shots. Now this is something.

872
00:51:32,080 --> 00:51:34,959
Speaker 1: It's something I always look at when I walk onto

873
00:51:35,000 --> 00:51:37,240
Speaker 1: a green that I haven't seen before, I look around

874
00:51:37,320 --> 00:51:39,279
Speaker 1: at the surrounds and I consider, well, what if I

875
00:51:39,320 --> 00:51:42,080
Speaker 1: miss there, What would that be like to get back

876
00:51:42,120 --> 00:51:44,719
Speaker 1: onto the putting surface? What if I missed over there?

877
00:51:44,760 --> 00:51:49,239
Speaker 1: Would it be different? Would be interesting? Right? That's it's

878
00:51:49,320 --> 00:51:52,040
Speaker 1: a it's a key set of questions that that you

879
00:51:52,080 --> 00:51:56,239
Speaker 1: could ask about greens to appreciate their design more. And

880
00:51:56,760 --> 00:51:59,759
Speaker 1: you know, the frustrating thing can be sometimes that you

881
00:51:59,760 --> 00:52:02,120
Speaker 1: look around and you're like, well, no matter where I

882
00:52:02,120 --> 00:52:04,040
Speaker 1: miss around this green, it's kind of the same shot.

883
00:52:04,160 --> 00:52:07,000
Speaker 1: Maybe it's surrounded by bunkers and it's just a bunker shot.

884
00:52:07,280 --> 00:52:11,200
Speaker 1: Maybe in the worst case, is simply surrounded by rough

885
00:52:11,640 --> 00:52:15,279
Speaker 1: without much interesting contouring, and you're like, well, that sort

886
00:52:15,320 --> 00:52:20,880
Speaker 1: of flattens the variety and the entertainment factor of missing

887
00:52:21,440 --> 00:52:24,960
Speaker 1: the green here. On the other hand, when greens have

888
00:52:25,000 --> 00:52:28,560
Speaker 1: a good amount of short grass around them, I think

889
00:52:28,600 --> 00:52:32,120
Speaker 1: that's when you're really cooking with gas, right. Short grass

890
00:52:32,200 --> 00:52:38,040
Speaker 1: can bring in that unpredictability and that variety of short

891
00:52:38,040 --> 00:52:42,320
Speaker 1: game shots that I'm really looking for when I consider

892
00:52:42,840 --> 00:52:46,600
Speaker 1: this aspect of green design, and one of my favorite

893
00:52:46,600 --> 00:52:52,440
Speaker 1: examples is the eighth Green at Augusta National remarkable green,

894
00:52:52,719 --> 00:52:56,200
Speaker 1: a very strange green in many ways, just surrounded very

895
00:52:56,239 --> 00:53:01,359
Speaker 1: long and narrow and surrounded by these huge mountains, and

896
00:53:01,400 --> 00:53:04,440
Speaker 1: it's all short grass. And if you miss far to

897
00:53:04,480 --> 00:53:07,160
Speaker 1: the left, you're gonna be in the pine straw and trees.

898
00:53:07,840 --> 00:53:09,880
Speaker 1: But for the most part, when you miss this green,

899
00:53:10,400 --> 00:53:13,840
Speaker 1: you're gonna be in amongst over on the other side,

900
00:53:13,840 --> 00:53:18,080
Speaker 1: of on top of wherever, around these big short grass mounts.

901
00:53:18,560 --> 00:53:21,560
Speaker 1: And there are so many different shots that you could

902
00:53:21,560 --> 00:53:24,600
Speaker 1: potentially face if you miss this green, and so many

903
00:53:24,600 --> 00:53:28,080
Speaker 1: different ways that you could approach those shots. This is

904
00:53:28,120 --> 00:53:31,280
Speaker 1: what I think contour and short grass around the greens

905
00:53:31,560 --> 00:53:37,280
Speaker 1: can bring that just rough and just bunkers never could

906
00:53:37,520 --> 00:53:39,399
Speaker 1: so Eighth Green at Augusta, Nashal I have a great

907
00:53:39,440 --> 00:53:40,080
Speaker 1: example of that.

908
00:53:40,600 --> 00:53:40,719
Speaker 2: Well.

909
00:53:40,800 --> 00:53:45,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, it brings creativity for sure, and I think it

910
00:53:46,120 --> 00:53:47,440
Speaker 3: adds a level of skill.

911
00:53:47,640 --> 00:53:48,960
Speaker 2: Like if you're just.

912
00:53:49,000 --> 00:53:51,800
Speaker 3: In the rough on every hole and you're getting swallowed

913
00:53:51,800 --> 00:53:55,800
Speaker 3: by long grass, that becomes a kind of a Rulette's

914
00:53:55,800 --> 00:53:56,239
Speaker 3: spin on.

915
00:53:58,360 --> 00:54:00,000
Speaker 2: Do you have a lie? Do you have a lie?

916
00:54:00,520 --> 00:54:03,759
Speaker 3: Like that kind of takes a I think a lot

917
00:54:03,800 --> 00:54:07,520
Speaker 3: of the fun out of it. You could just be

918
00:54:07,640 --> 00:54:09,680
Speaker 3: totally hosed, So you could be sitting up and you

919
00:54:09,719 --> 00:54:12,440
Speaker 3: could have have an accurate chip shot, and that certainly

920
00:54:12,480 --> 00:54:15,680
Speaker 3: gets repetitive after every hole. I think eight and Augusta,

921
00:54:15,719 --> 00:54:17,680
Speaker 3: n Ashville is a great example.

922
00:54:17,280 --> 00:54:17,480
Speaker 2: You know.

923
00:54:17,560 --> 00:54:20,000
Speaker 3: I I know a guy who hit a shot over

924
00:54:20,040 --> 00:54:22,120
Speaker 3: the screen, wrote it up one of the other mounds

925
00:54:22,160 --> 00:54:23,839
Speaker 3: and came back down the other side and then made

926
00:54:23,880 --> 00:54:27,760
Speaker 3: a putt to lead the Masters on Sunday like that.

927
00:54:26,800 --> 00:54:30,960
Speaker 1: That Who was this hero and it was this remarkable,

928
00:54:31,600 --> 00:54:33,879
Speaker 1: remarkable and very appealing man.

929
00:54:34,239 --> 00:54:37,200
Speaker 3: Yeah it could be Cameron Young, who's to say, But

930
00:54:38,120 --> 00:54:41,800
Speaker 3: I think that's like a perfect example of a level

931
00:54:41,800 --> 00:54:44,160
Speaker 3: of creativity. Like when he set up for the shot,

932
00:54:44,480 --> 00:54:47,799
Speaker 3: the broadcast wasn't sure if he was intending to do it,

933
00:54:47,920 --> 00:54:49,400
Speaker 3: like it confused.

934
00:54:49,760 --> 00:54:52,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, They're like, oh, that's shot, so where's he going.

935
00:54:53,320 --> 00:54:54,680
Speaker 2: Nobody knew what was happening.

936
00:54:54,760 --> 00:54:57,080
Speaker 3: Everybody just thought he sculled the chip and then it

937
00:54:57,400 --> 00:54:59,560
Speaker 3: came right back down off the mound, and obviously it

938
00:54:59,560 --> 00:55:03,240
Speaker 3: was intense. And I think that is just a level

939
00:55:03,239 --> 00:55:07,480
Speaker 3: of creativity. Even if you don't have like the skill

940
00:55:07,640 --> 00:55:11,960
Speaker 3: necessarily to pull it off, it makes you think more

941
00:55:12,040 --> 00:55:14,120
Speaker 3: than you know, I gotta get up and down of

942
00:55:14,200 --> 00:55:16,400
Speaker 3: a bunker, or oh do I have a lie in

943
00:55:16,440 --> 00:55:16,840
Speaker 3: the rough?

944
00:55:16,920 --> 00:55:17,279
Speaker 1: Like it?

945
00:55:17,480 --> 00:55:20,319
Speaker 3: Just again, it all comes back to for me, like

946
00:55:20,560 --> 00:55:23,719
Speaker 3: I like as somebody who doesn't hit the ball very

947
00:55:23,800 --> 00:55:27,880
Speaker 3: high or anything like, having the ball on the ground

948
00:55:28,160 --> 00:55:31,680
Speaker 3: is cool to me because I think I don't know,

949
00:55:31,760 --> 00:55:34,480
Speaker 3: more things can happen. It adds a lot more variability

950
00:55:34,840 --> 00:55:36,160
Speaker 3: in good ways and bad.

951
00:55:36,600 --> 00:55:43,120
Speaker 1: Makes it more fun and honestly easier for regular players

952
00:55:43,719 --> 00:55:47,160
Speaker 1: like you and me, but introduces a different level of

953
00:55:47,239 --> 00:55:51,560
Speaker 1: challenge for guys like Cameron Young. Now I'm not saying

954
00:55:51,600 --> 00:55:53,920
Speaker 1: that short grass around the greens is going to produce

955
00:55:54,000 --> 00:55:56,799
Speaker 1: higher scores. What's going to produce higher scores is if

956
00:55:56,840 --> 00:55:59,520
Speaker 1: you grow up the rough right around the greens and

957
00:55:59,560 --> 00:56:03,640
Speaker 1: make it a super thick and yeah, if your goal

958
00:56:03,760 --> 00:56:07,480
Speaker 1: is to have a plus eight winning score, then that's

959
00:56:07,480 --> 00:56:11,600
Speaker 1: what you're gonna do. But as we saw in the

960
00:56:11,640 --> 00:56:14,520
Speaker 1: past at Shinnacok Hills when they had rough right up

961
00:56:14,520 --> 00:56:20,960
Speaker 1: around the greens, it yes made those chips difficult when

962
00:56:21,000 --> 00:56:23,560
Speaker 1: you're chipping back onto a fast and fern putting surface

963
00:56:23,600 --> 00:56:27,160
Speaker 1: from a buried lie in the thick rough, but it

964
00:56:27,200 --> 00:56:30,920
Speaker 1: also stopped the ball from going to interesting places. Yeah,

965
00:56:31,000 --> 00:56:32,960
Speaker 1: you'd miss over the back of the eleventh green at

966
00:56:32,960 --> 00:56:35,960
Speaker 1: Shinnacock and your ball would stop on that slope. It

967
00:56:36,000 --> 00:56:40,200
Speaker 1: wouldn't run away from the hole on that slope. And

968
00:56:40,280 --> 00:56:42,239
Speaker 1: so that's the trade off. That's what we have to

969
00:56:42,320 --> 00:56:45,280
Speaker 1: keep in mind when we say rough around the greens

970
00:56:45,360 --> 00:56:48,879
Speaker 1: or rough anywhere is the key is that it it

971
00:56:49,080 --> 00:56:52,680
Speaker 1: grabs that ball and the next shot may be very difficult.

972
00:56:52,719 --> 00:56:54,880
Speaker 1: It may be easier to hit a chip off of

973
00:56:54,920 --> 00:56:57,040
Speaker 1: short grass than it is to hit a chip out

974
00:56:57,040 --> 00:57:00,759
Speaker 1: of deep, deep rough. But the t eat off is clear.

975
00:57:01,640 --> 00:57:04,120
Speaker 1: You get you get more interesting shots, You get more

976
00:57:04,200 --> 00:57:08,560
Speaker 1: varied shots after missing a green when you have a

977
00:57:08,560 --> 00:57:10,440
Speaker 1: good amount of short grass, or at least if you

978
00:57:10,520 --> 00:57:15,080
Speaker 1: have some combination of rough and short grass and bunkers

979
00:57:15,120 --> 00:57:18,960
Speaker 1: and and other other hazards around the green. So variety

980
00:57:19,000 --> 00:57:19,360
Speaker 1: is the key.

981
00:57:19,760 --> 00:57:22,280
Speaker 3: It can't be the same thing every time like that

982
00:57:22,280 --> 00:57:25,800
Speaker 3: that and and if it is the same thing every time,

983
00:57:25,960 --> 00:57:28,680
Speaker 3: I would prefer it be short grass just because of

984
00:57:28,760 --> 00:57:34,600
Speaker 3: the variability aspect of of what you what players can

985
00:57:34,680 --> 00:57:36,840
Speaker 3: do from from there, more than anything else.

986
00:57:37,400 --> 00:57:40,440
Speaker 1: I'm with you on that next factor that makes a

987
00:57:40,440 --> 00:57:47,480
Speaker 1: great green originality we'll talk just a little bit about originality, creativity,

988
00:57:47,840 --> 00:57:50,920
Speaker 1: inventiveness of design. Kind of a tricky thing to talk

989
00:57:50,920 --> 00:57:54,240
Speaker 1: about because it's really it's really a you know it

990
00:57:54,280 --> 00:57:57,280
Speaker 1: when you see it thing, right, And it also depends

991
00:57:57,320 --> 00:57:59,920
Speaker 1: on your experience, right if you if you're somebody who

992
00:57:59,920 --> 00:58:02,440
Speaker 1: hasn't seen a lot of different greens at a lot

993
00:58:02,440 --> 00:58:06,560
Speaker 1: of different courses, you may not have an immediate sense

994
00:58:06,640 --> 00:58:10,160
Speaker 1: of what's original and what's not, because it's presumably all

995
00:58:10,240 --> 00:58:14,120
Speaker 1: pretty new to you. But to me, the greens that

996
00:58:14,200 --> 00:58:17,960
Speaker 1: make you stop and say, I haven't quite seen anything

997
00:58:18,040 --> 00:58:22,720
Speaker 1: like that before are the most engaging ones, or at

998
00:58:22,760 --> 00:58:24,960
Speaker 1: least the ones that make you feel like you're dealing

999
00:58:25,000 --> 00:58:29,360
Speaker 1: with some kind of fresh execution of a standard concept.

1000
00:58:29,480 --> 00:58:32,280
Speaker 1: And that can be the case in template greens on C. B.

1001
00:58:32,440 --> 00:58:37,280
Speaker 1: MacDonald and SETH Rayner courses. I wouldn't call those greens

1002
00:58:37,280 --> 00:58:41,840
Speaker 1: original because by definition they're not original. But when you

1003
00:58:41,880 --> 00:58:44,640
Speaker 1: play the Burt's at Chicago Golf Club, which we just

1004
00:58:44,680 --> 00:58:49,520
Speaker 1: looked at, or you play the particular rendition of the

1005
00:58:49,800 --> 00:58:55,160
Speaker 1: Dan at National Golf Links, then you really do feel

1006
00:58:55,200 --> 00:58:58,440
Speaker 1: like something fresh is happening there because of the location

1007
00:58:58,560 --> 00:59:01,520
Speaker 1: of the green, because of the particular execution of the details,

1008
00:59:02,280 --> 00:59:06,080
Speaker 1: and so there is this sense of freshness and originality

1009
00:59:06,560 --> 00:59:12,000
Speaker 1: to any great green. Now, the easiest and probably best

1010
00:59:12,080 --> 00:59:15,600
Speaker 1: route to originality is taking inspiration from the specificities of

1011
00:59:15,640 --> 00:59:21,120
Speaker 1: the natural train. Nature is an endless source of originality,

1012
00:59:21,160 --> 00:59:23,520
Speaker 1: and if you just follow its cues, then then you're

1013
00:59:23,520 --> 00:59:27,040
Speaker 1: going to have results that feel new, you know, because

1014
00:59:27,080 --> 00:59:30,160
Speaker 1: there's no other patch of ground like that in the world.

1015
00:59:30,560 --> 00:59:32,880
Speaker 1: And if you just rely on that, then then you

1016
00:59:33,160 --> 00:59:36,720
Speaker 1: are generally in pretty good shape. Great example of this

1017
00:59:36,840 --> 00:59:40,080
Speaker 1: is the is the fourth green at Royal Saint George's.

1018
00:59:40,320 --> 00:59:42,520
Speaker 1: I have it labeled on the screen right now, is

1019
00:59:42,560 --> 00:59:46,600
Speaker 1: the fifth green, And that's killing me. But only only

1020
00:59:46,640 --> 00:59:49,040
Speaker 1: the YouTube audience is going to see that, So I'm

1021
00:59:49,080 --> 00:59:51,800
Speaker 1: sorry that was a typo. This is the fourth green

1022
00:59:51,920 --> 00:59:53,040
Speaker 1: at Royal Saint George's.

1023
00:59:53,240 --> 00:59:55,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is crazy, and look at that.

1024
00:59:57,080 --> 00:59:59,280
Speaker 1: I'm not going to even really try to describe it,

1025
00:59:59,320 --> 01:00:02,520
Speaker 1: but it's basically just this big green that's draped over

1026
01:00:03,160 --> 01:00:07,400
Speaker 1: a natural shelf. It's tilting strongly from left to right,

1027
01:00:07,960 --> 01:00:11,400
Speaker 1: and it's just sitting there right, It's just sitting there

1028
01:00:11,440 --> 01:00:14,480
Speaker 1: on the ground and it's a great piece of ground

1029
01:00:15,120 --> 01:00:17,800
Speaker 1: and that's all the green is doing. Now, I could

1030
01:00:17,800 --> 01:00:20,280
Speaker 1: go into how it corresponds to the strategy as a whole,

1031
01:00:20,320 --> 01:00:24,640
Speaker 1: and it does its job brilliantly in that way. But

1032
01:00:24,680 --> 01:00:27,160
Speaker 1: when you look at this green, you think, I haven't

1033
01:00:27,160 --> 01:00:29,880
Speaker 1: seen anything like that before. And the reason you haven't

1034
01:00:29,880 --> 01:00:32,280
Speaker 1: seen anything like that before is that this piece of

1035
01:00:32,360 --> 01:00:36,000
Speaker 1: land is its own unique thing, and the green just

1036
01:00:36,200 --> 01:00:39,640
Speaker 1: uses it. It is just set on it, and it's

1037
01:00:39,680 --> 01:00:42,080
Speaker 1: quite beautiful, and it is the fourth green and not

1038
01:00:42,160 --> 01:00:50,280
Speaker 1: the fifth green. Now, manufactured originality is definitely possible, but

1039
01:00:50,360 --> 01:00:53,040
Speaker 1: it takes a lot of skill because a lot of

1040
01:00:53,040 --> 01:00:59,160
Speaker 1: people try to manufacture originality and fall short. Because we're humans,

1041
01:00:59,400 --> 01:01:04,000
Speaker 1: We're limited. We don't have the same creative capabilities of nature, right,

1042
01:01:04,040 --> 01:01:10,880
Speaker 1: and we have to admit that in humility to we

1043
01:01:10,920 --> 01:01:12,760
Speaker 1: have to admit our limitations sometimes.

1044
01:01:12,760 --> 01:01:17,680
Speaker 2: But yes, can't go Jurassic Park golf course. Unfortunately.

1045
01:01:18,360 --> 01:01:23,040
Speaker 1: Yeah you can, but you need to have extraordinary skill.

1046
01:01:24,640 --> 01:01:28,160
Speaker 1: And you can really tell when when somebody has that

1047
01:01:28,560 --> 01:01:32,360
Speaker 1: talent of being able to manufacture originality. Now, no architect

1048
01:01:32,440 --> 01:01:36,000
Speaker 1: I think can do it on every green, on every

1049
01:01:36,040 --> 01:01:39,320
Speaker 1: golf course that he or she builds. You know, you

1050
01:01:39,480 --> 01:01:43,680
Speaker 1: have to sometimes be more natural in your approach. But

1051
01:01:43,920 --> 01:01:48,000
Speaker 1: I think that the course Old Barnwell, a recent design

1052
01:01:48,600 --> 01:01:54,240
Speaker 1: by Brian Schneider and Blake Conant, has some very manufactured greens,

1053
01:01:54,640 --> 01:01:56,800
Speaker 1: like the eighth green, which we're looking at right now,

1054
01:01:57,600 --> 01:02:04,400
Speaker 1: that do feel original and don't seem particularly contrived or

1055
01:02:04,640 --> 01:02:08,520
Speaker 1: or you know, overly based on other sources, or or

1056
01:02:08,920 --> 01:02:11,560
Speaker 1: just like they you know, they don't belong there, that

1057
01:02:11,960 --> 01:02:17,000
Speaker 1: they're executed really well. But some of them are very artificial.

1058
01:02:18,320 --> 01:02:22,600
Speaker 1: The key, however, is a variety. And you know, sometimes

1059
01:02:22,600 --> 01:02:24,480
Speaker 1: the most daring thing that you can do, the most

1060
01:02:24,480 --> 01:02:27,240
Speaker 1: original thing you can do, is just set the green

1061
01:02:27,320 --> 01:02:30,600
Speaker 1: on the land. And another example of that would be

1062
01:02:31,280 --> 01:02:34,880
Speaker 1: at the same golf course, the eighteenth hole at Old Barnwell.

1063
01:02:34,880 --> 01:02:36,080
Speaker 1: What are you seeing here, PJ.

1064
01:02:38,040 --> 01:02:42,800
Speaker 3: It's it's just sitting in the middle of a patch

1065
01:02:42,800 --> 01:02:46,560
Speaker 3: of grass, right, It's just yeah, there's nothing there, It's

1066
01:02:46,680 --> 01:02:47,360
Speaker 3: just a flag.

1067
01:02:47,600 --> 01:02:49,280
Speaker 2: And then the putting surface.

1068
01:02:49,800 --> 01:02:54,200
Speaker 1: It is completely unified with the land around it. There's

1069
01:02:54,520 --> 01:02:58,440
Speaker 1: there's basically nothing that you can see that was constructed here. Now.

1070
01:02:58,520 --> 01:03:00,480
Speaker 1: I do know that, you know, if you things a

1071
01:03:00,520 --> 01:03:03,040
Speaker 1: few contours, a few details are pushed here and there,

1072
01:03:03,600 --> 01:03:07,440
Speaker 1: but the putting surface the eighteenth hole at Old Barnwell

1073
01:03:07,880 --> 01:03:10,280
Speaker 1: just really sits on the land. Now, what you can't

1074
01:03:10,280 --> 01:03:11,960
Speaker 1: really see in this photo is that it is very

1075
01:03:12,000 --> 01:03:16,880
Speaker 1: significantly tilted right because it sits on terrain that naturally

1076
01:03:16,920 --> 01:03:21,400
Speaker 1: tilts it. There is there is a strong pole toward

1077
01:03:21,800 --> 01:03:24,000
Speaker 1: the left side of the green as you're as you're

1078
01:03:24,000 --> 01:03:28,200
Speaker 1: playing into it. But uh, this is the the kind

1079
01:03:28,240 --> 01:03:31,560
Speaker 1: of variety that that you need in approaches across a

1080
01:03:31,560 --> 01:03:34,040
Speaker 1: golf course. You had the eighth green, which is heavily

1081
01:03:34,080 --> 01:03:37,320
Speaker 1: manufactured but does feel original, does feel like a fresh idea,

1082
01:03:37,800 --> 01:03:40,480
Speaker 1: and then you have the eighteenth green, which is literally

1083
01:03:40,600 --> 01:03:45,600
Speaker 1: just sitting on the ground. Okay, so originality key component.

1084
01:03:46,400 --> 01:03:49,720
Speaker 1: Often that originality is going to come from nature, but

1085
01:03:49,920 --> 01:03:54,880
Speaker 1: sometimes if you have real proficiency, then as an architect

1086
01:03:55,000 --> 01:03:58,440
Speaker 1: you can create some originality. The next factor that I

1087
01:03:58,440 --> 01:04:01,160
Speaker 1: want to talk about PJ and I. I want to

1088
01:04:01,320 --> 01:04:05,680
Speaker 1: follow up originality with this for a reason, and that

1089
01:04:05,840 --> 01:04:11,400
Speaker 1: is elegance. Sometimes architects do try too hard to be

1090
01:04:11,440 --> 01:04:16,280
Speaker 1: original and the result of that is a chaotic mess

1091
01:04:16,560 --> 01:04:21,120
Speaker 1: of contours and just craziness. Right, Wildness is not the

1092
01:04:21,160 --> 01:04:25,400
Speaker 1: same thing as originality, And it seems to me that

1093
01:04:25,440 --> 01:04:31,080
Speaker 1: occasionally architects are really trying to manufacture that sense of freshness,

1094
01:04:32,040 --> 01:04:38,400
Speaker 1: but they forget that elegance is also an important component.

1095
01:04:39,880 --> 01:04:42,600
Speaker 1: You know. Probably my favorite greens are the ones that

1096
01:04:43,280 --> 01:04:46,960
Speaker 1: achieve everything we've talked about to this point while being

1097
01:04:47,000 --> 01:04:50,960
Speaker 1: relatively simple, or at least not seeming to have any

1098
01:04:51,600 --> 01:04:58,120
Speaker 1: unnecessary elements. Right, Elegance in design is achieving what you

1099
01:04:58,240 --> 01:05:02,280
Speaker 1: need to achieve with exactly the right number of moves

1100
01:05:02,720 --> 01:05:05,960
Speaker 1: and no more. If the architect makes too many moves,

1101
01:05:07,080 --> 01:05:11,360
Speaker 1: then the green design can become muddled and incoherent, and

1102
01:05:12,480 --> 01:05:14,560
Speaker 1: you're looking at the contours and you're you're saying, Okay, well,

1103
01:05:14,560 --> 01:05:17,800
Speaker 1: why is that there? What does that correspond to in

1104
01:05:17,840 --> 01:05:20,400
Speaker 1: the rest of the hole? What's the purpose of that?

1105
01:05:21,400 --> 01:05:24,480
Speaker 1: Is that really creating extra interest in the short game,

1106
01:05:24,520 --> 01:05:27,200
Speaker 1: recovery shots or a pin position that is that is

1107
01:05:27,240 --> 01:05:30,840
Speaker 1: genuinely interesting or or is that just not needed? So

1108
01:05:31,280 --> 01:05:34,920
Speaker 1: I love greens that do a lot while seeming to

1109
01:05:35,000 --> 01:05:40,040
Speaker 1: do relatively little. Good example of that is the fifteenth

1110
01:05:40,120 --> 01:05:43,720
Speaker 1: green at the North Course at Los Angeles Country Club.

1111
01:05:44,000 --> 01:05:47,240
Speaker 1: This is a short par three. In this image PJ,

1112
01:05:47,360 --> 01:05:50,400
Speaker 1: we're looking at the green from the back. It is

1113
01:05:50,520 --> 01:05:56,160
Speaker 1: a crescent shaped green, very narrow in some parts of it.

1114
01:05:56,560 --> 01:05:59,320
Speaker 1: The back section of it is wider than the front

1115
01:05:59,360 --> 01:06:03,520
Speaker 1: section of it, and between those two sections back in front,

1116
01:06:03,920 --> 01:06:08,360
Speaker 1: there's a big bump, yep, just like a buried elephant

1117
01:06:08,880 --> 01:06:11,640
Speaker 1: right there in the middle of the green. And that's

1118
01:06:11,680 --> 01:06:16,800
Speaker 1: it right Otherwise there's some bunkers around it. But this

1119
01:06:16,960 --> 01:06:19,800
Speaker 1: green is really just about that shape that I described,

1120
01:06:19,800 --> 01:06:23,400
Speaker 1: the crescent shape and that bump in the middle, and

1121
01:06:23,480 --> 01:06:25,560
Speaker 1: think about all the variety that you can get from that.

1122
01:06:25,640 --> 01:06:27,640
Speaker 1: You can put the pin in the front this very

1123
01:06:27,760 --> 01:06:32,320
Speaker 1: very narrow, tiny sliver of putting surface. It is the

1124
01:06:32,360 --> 01:06:37,040
Speaker 1: shortest shot, but it's very exacting because you really have

1125
01:06:37,120 --> 01:06:40,680
Speaker 1: to you have to hit a narrow area. Then you

1126
01:06:40,720 --> 01:06:44,160
Speaker 1: have the back section where yeah, more margin for error

1127
01:06:44,200 --> 01:06:47,200
Speaker 1: back there, but it's a longer shot and it's somewhat

1128
01:06:47,200 --> 01:06:49,680
Speaker 1: concealed from the tee. And then you have that bump

1129
01:06:49,760 --> 01:06:51,360
Speaker 1: in the middle. Just imagine what you can do with

1130
01:06:51,400 --> 01:06:53,680
Speaker 1: that bump. You can put the pin right behind it

1131
01:06:53,760 --> 01:06:55,560
Speaker 1: if you want to, you can put it right in

1132
01:06:55,600 --> 01:06:59,120
Speaker 1: front of it. That bump is It can can create

1133
01:06:59,680 --> 01:07:05,160
Speaker 1: so much much fun stuff in this hole. But again elegance,

1134
01:07:06,200 --> 01:07:09,520
Speaker 1: It achieves a lot with relatively few moves.

1135
01:07:09,920 --> 01:07:12,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's really not a lot going on here, but

1136
01:07:12,680 --> 01:07:15,200
Speaker 2: it is. You could do a whole bunch of that.

1137
01:07:15,240 --> 01:07:19,160
Speaker 1: It's very cool, Yeah, and that's that's that is I

1138
01:07:19,200 --> 01:07:23,360
Speaker 1: think the factor that gets lost in modern design. Sometimes.

1139
01:07:23,440 --> 01:07:27,520
Speaker 1: I appreciate that a lot of architects are going for originality.

1140
01:07:27,560 --> 01:07:31,000
Speaker 1: They're going there. They want to make something fresh and new,

1141
01:07:31,040 --> 01:07:33,840
Speaker 1: and that's a good impulse, but that has to be

1142
01:07:33,960 --> 01:07:38,439
Speaker 1: tempered by elegance, because I think that you know, any

1143
01:07:38,520 --> 01:07:43,920
Speaker 1: any kind of art that that I love, has this

1144
01:07:44,040 --> 01:07:46,600
Speaker 1: aspect of elegance about it. I don't know about upj,

1145
01:07:46,800 --> 01:07:51,920
Speaker 1: but you know, I like literature where the author doesn't

1146
01:07:51,960 --> 01:07:55,560
Speaker 1: seem to be doing much and yet a lot is achieved,

1147
01:07:56,400 --> 01:08:01,200
Speaker 1: or movies where you know it it doesn't seem overly intricate,

1148
01:08:01,280 --> 01:08:04,120
Speaker 1: but but actually there's there's a lot there when when

1149
01:08:04,200 --> 01:08:07,720
Speaker 1: you look at it. This is It's a common theme

1150
01:08:07,760 --> 01:08:09,760
Speaker 1: for me in the stuff that I really respond to.

1151
01:08:09,840 --> 01:08:11,840
Speaker 1: I know not everybody feels the same way. There are

1152
01:08:11,840 --> 01:08:17,600
Speaker 1: those who embrace maximalism and like that exuberance of a

1153
01:08:17,640 --> 01:08:20,479
Speaker 1: piece of art where there's a lot going on, But

1154
01:08:20,520 --> 01:08:24,439
Speaker 1: personally I take the most joy in things that are

1155
01:08:24,640 --> 01:08:29,840
Speaker 1: are simple yet subtly complex. How do you feel.

1156
01:08:29,880 --> 01:08:32,200
Speaker 3: I can tell by this conversation you're really fired up

1157
01:08:32,240 --> 01:08:35,639
Speaker 3: about the Avengers doomsday trailer from this week. Oh God,

1158
01:08:36,160 --> 01:08:39,400
Speaker 3: you're really You're ready to go December eighteenth. You're gonna

1159
01:08:39,400 --> 01:08:40,639
Speaker 3: be there at midnight. You're ready.

1160
01:08:40,680 --> 01:08:44,040
Speaker 1: I just watched this trailer yesterday. I was like, oh God,

1161
01:08:44,080 --> 01:08:44,760
Speaker 1: that looks bad.

1162
01:08:45,880 --> 01:08:48,759
Speaker 2: What would you say? The Avengers, Douesday of Greens are.

1163
01:08:52,600 --> 01:08:57,320
Speaker 1: Maybe that? God, it's said that Ryder cup Course, Marcos Simone,

1164
01:09:00,439 --> 01:09:02,840
Speaker 1: this is a lot going on. Just threw everything at it.

1165
01:09:03,360 --> 01:09:05,479
Speaker 1: But there's not, you know, not much of a point

1166
01:09:05,520 --> 01:09:06,679
Speaker 1: aside from making money.

1167
01:09:07,960 --> 01:09:10,600
Speaker 2: I like that. That's good. I like that.

1168
01:09:13,600 --> 01:09:16,040
Speaker 1: Oh man, it doesn't look like a doesn't look like

1169
01:09:16,040 --> 01:09:19,640
Speaker 1: a good movie. There have been some Marvel movies. I like,

1170
01:09:19,680 --> 01:09:20,880
Speaker 1: what what happened.

1171
01:09:20,560 --> 01:09:24,600
Speaker 2: Here looks like it's gonna be real bad, very very concerning.

1172
01:09:24,880 --> 01:09:26,360
Speaker 1: But I mean it just doesn't look you look at

1173
01:09:26,360 --> 01:09:28,960
Speaker 1: the trailer. There's some shots where it's like, oh, they're

1174
01:09:29,000 --> 01:09:34,720
Speaker 1: just standing in like a back lot in Burbank, and

1175
01:09:34,880 --> 01:09:37,000
Speaker 1: it's just they're surrounded by c g I and it

1176
01:09:37,000 --> 01:09:37,799
Speaker 1: feels that way.

1177
01:09:37,920 --> 01:09:40,000
Speaker 3: So here we'll tie this back to golf courses down.

1178
01:09:40,000 --> 01:09:42,400
Speaker 3: What are your thoughts on the Odyssey and all of

1179
01:09:42,200 --> 01:09:45,240
Speaker 3: the practical effects. There's a lot going on, but it's

1180
01:09:45,320 --> 01:09:48,040
Speaker 3: it's a real piece of art. How would you relate

1181
01:09:48,120 --> 01:09:50,800
Speaker 3: that to to to a green and door golf course?

1182
01:09:51,640 --> 01:09:54,240
Speaker 1: Well, this is a really interesting question, PJ. Have you

1183
01:09:54,240 --> 01:09:55,280
Speaker 1: seen The Odyssey yet?

1184
01:09:55,520 --> 01:09:58,799
Speaker 2: I haven't. It's it's my this weekend. I'm still hoping

1185
01:09:58,920 --> 01:09:59,759
Speaker 2: that I could get.

1186
01:10:01,000 --> 01:10:03,439
Speaker 1: I'm max screen. Yeah, the seventy millimeter screens are in

1187
01:10:03,560 --> 01:10:05,760
Speaker 1: limited supply. There's one kind of near me that I'm

1188
01:10:05,800 --> 01:10:08,920
Speaker 1: actually thinking about going and seeing it again, but that

1189
01:10:09,080 --> 01:10:12,360
Speaker 1: might be too much. Well, yeah, I think there is

1190
01:10:12,400 --> 01:10:14,840
Speaker 1: an interesting link here. It might not be immediately what

1191
01:10:14,880 --> 01:10:17,560
Speaker 1: we're talking about with elegance, though I think there is

1192
01:10:17,600 --> 01:10:21,200
Speaker 1: an elegance to Christopher Nolan's movies. The dialogue is relatively minimal,

1193
01:10:21,240 --> 01:10:23,840
Speaker 1: but there's a lot in it. Though I wouldn't say

1194
01:10:23,880 --> 01:10:27,280
Speaker 1: that that the verbal aspect of Christopher Nolan's movies is

1195
01:10:27,400 --> 01:10:31,040
Speaker 1: like the best thing about them. The writing is not

1196
01:10:31,120 --> 01:10:34,240
Speaker 1: often the thing that you go to see Christopher Nolan

1197
01:10:34,320 --> 01:10:38,680
Speaker 1: movie for, but just this sensation of sitting in a

1198
01:10:38,760 --> 01:10:44,360
Speaker 1: theater and watching something that you know actually happened, not

1199
01:10:44,439 --> 01:10:47,919
Speaker 1: happened historically obviously, contrary to a lot of the online discourse,

1200
01:10:47,960 --> 01:10:52,400
Speaker 1: this is a fantastical narrative which we can do whatever

1201
01:10:52,520 --> 01:10:58,920
Speaker 1: we want with. But you know that he filmed so

1202
01:10:59,080 --> 01:11:01,439
Speaker 1: much of what we're seeing on the screen. Yes, there

1203
01:11:01,479 --> 01:11:04,760
Speaker 1: are some special effects, but we know that Nolan. We

1204
01:11:04,800 --> 01:11:08,400
Speaker 1: trust Christopher Nolan to keep that to a minimum. And

1205
01:11:08,439 --> 01:11:13,360
Speaker 1: so when they're on a ship in the storm tossed see,

1206
01:11:14,400 --> 01:11:16,840
Speaker 1: we know that what we're seeing on screen was actually

1207
01:11:16,920 --> 01:11:19,920
Speaker 1: experienced by these actors and the people who made the movie.

1208
01:11:20,280 --> 01:11:23,880
Speaker 1: We know when they're huddled inside that Trojan horse in

1209
01:11:23,920 --> 01:11:27,280
Speaker 1: close quarters, peeing and pooping on each.

1210
01:11:27,160 --> 01:11:29,960
Speaker 2: Other, they shoved an Imax camera in there.

1211
01:11:30,000 --> 01:11:31,720
Speaker 1: So they put an Imax camera in there, and they

1212
01:11:31,760 --> 01:11:33,960
Speaker 1: actually put the actors in there in the cold water

1213
01:11:34,840 --> 01:11:39,559
Speaker 1: and experienced that. And there is a visceral excitement to

1214
01:11:39,680 --> 01:11:42,880
Speaker 1: actually seeing something real. And by the way, that is

1215
01:11:42,920 --> 01:11:46,000
Speaker 1: what is sort of alienating about some of the recent

1216
01:11:46,080 --> 01:11:48,640
Speaker 1: Marvel movies, where you watch it and you just know

1217
01:11:48,760 --> 01:11:51,800
Speaker 1: that none of this has any weight of reality to it.

1218
01:11:53,479 --> 01:11:57,760
Speaker 1: And yes, to me, that does relate to golf course

1219
01:11:57,800 --> 01:12:00,720
Speaker 1: designed to green design in the sense that you look

1220
01:12:00,720 --> 01:12:02,880
Speaker 1: at a green like the fourth Green at Royal Saint

1221
01:12:02,960 --> 01:12:07,479
Speaker 1: George's and you just know there's there's reality to that green,

1222
01:12:07,640 --> 01:12:13,719
Speaker 1: that there's there. You are experiencing something topographically real, and

1223
01:12:14,840 --> 01:12:19,200
Speaker 1: that excitement is hard to replace with with anything manufactured.

1224
01:12:19,640 --> 01:12:23,200
Speaker 1: Architects of great skill can can get close, but but

1225
01:12:23,320 --> 01:12:25,120
Speaker 1: there's nothing quite like it.

1226
01:12:25,680 --> 01:12:27,960
Speaker 3: I think we might need to do a golf architecture

1227
01:12:28,000 --> 01:12:32,200
Speaker 3: one oh one where you just compare famous golf courses

1228
01:12:32,200 --> 01:12:33,880
Speaker 3: to movies for me, because I think that would be

1229
01:12:33,960 --> 01:12:36,600
Speaker 3: really beneficial probably for my life, Like I need to

1230
01:12:36,640 --> 01:12:39,880
Speaker 3: know who the tom Cruise of golf architecture is. That's

1231
01:12:39,880 --> 01:12:42,120
Speaker 3: trying to get everybody to come back out to the

1232
01:12:42,240 --> 01:12:43,160
Speaker 3: out to the movies.

1233
01:12:43,479 --> 01:12:45,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, but kind of does the same thing over and

1234
01:12:45,160 --> 01:12:47,920
Speaker 1: over again. Even if that thing is like there's.

1235
01:12:47,760 --> 01:12:50,680
Speaker 2: A banger though that thing, that thing goes.

1236
01:12:51,000 --> 01:12:54,120
Speaker 1: Well relating it, relating what we were just talking about there.

1237
01:12:54,240 --> 01:12:57,040
Speaker 1: That the sense of reality and the sense of actually

1238
01:12:57,640 --> 01:13:00,679
Speaker 1: doing things and capturing them on camera. I think that's

1239
01:13:00,680 --> 01:13:02,840
Speaker 1: a big reason why Top Gun Maverick was such a

1240
01:13:02,840 --> 01:13:05,240
Speaker 1: big hit. It's like, oh my god, these people are

1241
01:13:05,240 --> 01:13:08,880
Speaker 1: in planes. They're actually in there in these planes getting

1242
01:13:08,920 --> 01:13:11,599
Speaker 1: hit by the g forces. Yeah, they're not like shooting

1243
01:13:11,600 --> 01:13:15,400
Speaker 1: at each other. Actually we know that, but you can

1244
01:13:15,479 --> 01:13:19,600
Speaker 1: feel that there is a real thing happening to the

1245
01:13:19,640 --> 01:13:24,800
Speaker 1: actor in the plane, and that is so exciting, and I, yeah,

1246
01:13:24,880 --> 01:13:28,439
Speaker 1: I feel the same, so much the same about golf courses.

1247
01:13:30,800 --> 01:13:32,280
Speaker 2: I think there's a lot of meat on this bone.

1248
01:13:32,320 --> 01:13:33,680
Speaker 3: I think we might have to come back to this

1249
01:13:33,680 --> 01:13:35,640
Speaker 3: because now I'm extra excited about it.

1250
01:13:36,479 --> 01:13:38,559
Speaker 1: You know what we should do sometime soon. PJ is

1251
01:13:38,600 --> 01:13:41,240
Speaker 1: like a golf architecture one on one mail bag where

1252
01:13:41,240 --> 01:13:43,960
Speaker 1: we can kind of get into get into fun topics

1253
01:13:44,000 --> 01:13:46,120
Speaker 1: like this, get some questions from readers. You can come

1254
01:13:46,200 --> 01:13:48,479
Speaker 1: up with questions. I think a mail bag would be

1255
01:13:49,200 --> 01:13:50,800
Speaker 1: would be a good idea. At some point there we

1256
01:13:50,840 --> 01:13:54,519
Speaker 1: go book it final point that I'd love to make

1257
01:13:54,680 --> 01:13:57,519
Speaker 1: about what makes a good green And I do want

1258
01:13:57,560 --> 01:14:00,360
Speaker 1: to apologize in retrospect right now this has been a

1259
01:14:00,479 --> 01:14:02,760
Speaker 1: very biased episode where I've just been talking about things

1260
01:14:02,800 --> 01:14:06,519
Speaker 1: that I like. And you know, the point of a

1261
01:14:06,560 --> 01:14:09,439
Speaker 1: one oh one class is too is to bring the students,

1262
01:14:09,520 --> 01:14:12,439
Speaker 1: have the students think their own thoughts and and create

1263
01:14:12,439 --> 01:14:15,400
Speaker 1: their own knowledge, and not to not to press your

1264
01:14:15,400 --> 01:14:17,240
Speaker 1: opinions on that too much as the professor.

1265
01:14:17,320 --> 01:14:18,040
Speaker 2: Don't worry about me.

1266
01:14:18,200 --> 01:14:21,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess I have strong opinions about this kind

1267
01:14:21,360 --> 01:14:24,120
Speaker 1: of stuff, but I'm I'm always willing to hear pushback.

1268
01:14:25,400 --> 01:14:28,720
Speaker 1: The final component would have to be the attractiveness of

1269
01:14:28,760 --> 01:14:32,080
Speaker 1: the shaping and the finished work of a green. So

1270
01:14:32,160 --> 01:14:36,400
Speaker 1: how are the artificial elements of the green shaped to

1271
01:14:36,479 --> 01:14:42,160
Speaker 1: correspond to and blend in with the environment around the green.

1272
01:14:43,240 --> 01:14:47,240
Speaker 1: So the shaping that connects the artificial features of a

1273
01:14:47,240 --> 01:14:50,360
Speaker 1: green to the surrounding landscape is called a tie in.

1274
01:14:51,479 --> 01:14:54,760
Speaker 1: Tie In is a key key term here, and it's

1275
01:14:54,840 --> 01:14:58,560
Speaker 1: it is what it sounds like, tying in your manufactured

1276
01:14:58,600 --> 01:15:01,920
Speaker 1: features if the environment, you.

1277
01:15:01,880 --> 01:15:04,880
Speaker 3: Know, I heard a lot about this last week, came up,

1278
01:15:05,000 --> 01:15:06,880
Speaker 3: came up quite a bit, the.

1279
01:15:06,880 --> 01:15:10,160
Speaker 1: Tie ins at Royal Birkdale. And I will say, you know,

1280
01:15:11,400 --> 01:15:14,759
Speaker 1: I and maybe some other architecture nerds can can maybe

1281
01:15:14,760 --> 01:15:20,479
Speaker 1: get too offended about about substandard tie ins at places

1282
01:15:20,479 --> 01:15:22,760
Speaker 1: like Royal Birkdale. And I do think that, you know,

1283
01:15:22,840 --> 01:15:25,240
Speaker 1: some of the tie in work, the the the kind

1284
01:15:25,240 --> 01:15:29,479
Speaker 1: of interface between the new greens and the natural dune

1285
01:15:29,560 --> 01:15:32,960
Speaker 1: environment at Royal Birkdale. I will stand by that they're

1286
01:15:33,000 --> 01:15:36,240
Speaker 1: not good, but they're also not terrible, you know, They're

1287
01:15:36,240 --> 01:15:38,280
Speaker 1: not They're not the worst I've ever seen, and so

1288
01:15:38,320 --> 01:15:40,439
Speaker 1: I don't want to get too overboard about that. I

1289
01:15:40,479 --> 01:15:45,080
Speaker 1: still think Royal Birkdale is a wonderful championship venue, but

1290
01:15:45,200 --> 01:15:50,280
Speaker 1: that is something that really that especially when you're talking

1291
01:15:50,280 --> 01:15:52,840
Speaker 1: about we began this episode talking about some of the

1292
01:15:53,200 --> 01:15:58,920
Speaker 1: differences in perspective between the general golfer and the died

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Speaker 1: in the wool architecture. When it comes to tie ins,

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Speaker 1: that is a subject that architecture nerds can take very

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01:16:05,040 --> 01:16:09,280
Speaker 1: very seriously, and potentially too seriously. But there's an important

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Speaker 1: point here, and it's that the tie ins make the

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Speaker 1: green feel like it belongs there. There's a lot of

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Speaker 1: different ways to do great golf architecture, and it doesn't

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Speaker 1: necessarily all have to be naturalistic. And I want to

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Speaker 1: show you a final photo here of the tenth hole

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01:16:26,760 --> 01:16:31,120
Speaker 1: at Cape Arundle, which is a course in Maine designed

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Speaker 1: by Walter Travis. When you look at this green, the

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Speaker 1: tenth green, there's kind of a big false front and

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01:16:37,320 --> 01:16:39,799
Speaker 1: then it goes to that it rolls into a middle

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Speaker 1: section and then there's a raised shelf in the back

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Speaker 1: and it's all kind of pushed up from the surrounding landscape.

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Speaker 1: When you look at this. You aren't necessarily thinking, Wow,

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Speaker 1: that's all really nicely connected with the natural environment, though

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Speaker 1: I think the actual tie ins between the high parts

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01:16:58,360 --> 01:17:01,040
Speaker 1: of the green and what's around it are at least

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01:17:01,080 --> 01:17:06,439
Speaker 1: smooth and nicely, nicely shaped and everything. But you don't

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01:17:06,479 --> 01:17:08,200
Speaker 1: look at that green and think, oh, that was just

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01:17:08,240 --> 01:17:11,280
Speaker 1: sitting there in the landscape. It's clearly a manufactured thing.

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Speaker 1: But I think it looks really beautiful, right, that it

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01:17:15,040 --> 01:17:20,080
Speaker 1: looks compelling, and not because it's natural, but just because

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Speaker 1: it itself is an interesting thing to look at, and

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Speaker 1: some skill has been exercised in shaping this thing and

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Speaker 1: turning it into almost like a piece of art. I

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Speaker 1: guess the point is that I don't necessarily think a

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01:17:32,520 --> 01:17:37,280
Speaker 1: green's shaping has to be natural in order to be successful,

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Speaker 1: all right, So just to quickly summarize the factors that

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01:17:41,360 --> 01:17:47,880
Speaker 1: can make a great green. One location, two drainage, three,

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01:17:48,240 --> 01:17:51,439
Speaker 1: the relationship with the rest of the whole four, the

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01:17:51,560 --> 01:17:56,920
Speaker 1: test of the player's skill. Five, a variety of pin positions. Six,

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01:17:57,160 --> 01:18:03,679
Speaker 1: a variety of recovery shots seven, originality, eight elegance nine

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Speaker 1: the attractiveness of the shaping and finish work. We've covered

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Speaker 1: a lot of ground there, PJ. Any takeaways, anythings that

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Speaker 1: will stick with you as as interesting about this particular lesson.

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Speaker 2: As somebody who doesn't hit a lot of greens in

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Speaker 2: my day to day life.

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Speaker 3: I think I'm most when I walk up to a green,

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Speaker 3: I'm most focused on all right, like where where did

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Speaker 3: I miss?

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Speaker 2: Where should I have missed? What is the miss?

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Speaker 3: And it does get I think I'm I might and

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Speaker 3: I'm probably harping too much on it. But from like

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Speaker 3: a recreational standpoint, like where the variety of of of

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Speaker 3: recovery shots I think is pretty important. Like I think

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01:18:54,520 --> 01:18:57,519
Speaker 3: you have to give people a you have to give

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01:18:57,560 --> 01:19:02,759
Speaker 3: people a chance to even play, but be it shouldn't

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Speaker 3: be the same thing every single time.

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Speaker 1: You have to make something happen for them. Yeah, yeah, absolutely,

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01:19:07,080 --> 01:19:09,160
Speaker 1: you have to give them, give them some kind of

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01:19:09,200 --> 01:19:12,920
Speaker 1: reason to engage with the next shot, for sure. And

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Speaker 1: that can sometimes be overlooked because you know, maybe an

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Speaker 1: architect who is a former professional golfer might assume that

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Speaker 1: people aren't really missing greens that much, but we do,

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Speaker 1: of course, you know, to us, PJ, what's around the

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01:19:25,600 --> 01:19:26,839
Speaker 1: green is extremely important.

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Speaker 3: So that's what I think maybe more and I unders

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Speaker 3: says that's probably objectively wrong in this instance. But I

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Speaker 3: do think from a professional golf standpoint, I think the

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Speaker 3: point about are some greens too small or penalizing in

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Speaker 3: ways that could deeply affect a tournament, and the reward

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Speaker 3: is disproportionate for hitting a certain green or finding a

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Speaker 3: certain spot because there's only one pin position on a

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Speaker 3: certain green. I think that is, you know, it's something

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Speaker 3: that that I don't know if I was like totally

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01:20:10,479 --> 01:20:14,600
Speaker 3: thinking about on a from a bird's eye view in

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Speaker 3: the middle of a tournament, but I think I have

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Speaker 3: a better understanding of that now for for next time.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, And I think the key for me is

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01:20:22,960 --> 01:20:27,920
Speaker 1: that it's not you know, pros would definitely frame this

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Speaker 1: as a fairness issue, but for me, the more important

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Speaker 1: thing is whether the green is still multi dimensional. Because

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Speaker 1: if a green is overly severe or overly penalizing or

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Speaker 1: too small for the shop that's being hit into it,

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Speaker 1: it's not that that's that that's wrong or against the law.

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Speaker 1: It's more that it just isn't as interesting as it

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Speaker 1: possibly could be, and and that that is a balance

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Speaker 1: that an architect has to strike when designing a green.

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Speaker 1: For sure, all Right, well, thank you very much, PJ.

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01:21:01,960 --> 01:21:04,760
Speaker 1: This was fun as always. Hope you got a lot

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01:21:04,760 --> 01:21:07,280
Speaker 1: out of this episode. And yeah, I like the idea

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01:21:07,280 --> 01:21:09,800
Speaker 1: of doing a mail bag next time, just trying to

1376
01:21:09,960 --> 01:21:13,080
Speaker 1: just fielding a bunch of random questions. It feels like

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01:21:13,160 --> 01:21:16,639
Speaker 1: this one on one series has gotten to the point

1378
01:21:16,680 --> 01:21:19,880
Speaker 1: where we can kind of pause on the topics that

1379
01:21:19,960 --> 01:21:23,720
Speaker 1: we're pursuing and and and see say where people are

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01:21:24,640 --> 01:21:26,559
Speaker 1: in this process. But I know a lot of listeners

1381
01:21:26,560 --> 01:21:30,960
Speaker 1: are enjoying these episodes a great deal and I appreciate that.

1382
01:21:31,040 --> 01:21:33,599
Speaker 1: I think a lot of people are are are living

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01:21:33,600 --> 01:21:34,639
Speaker 1: it right along with you, PJ.

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01:21:35,720 --> 01:21:37,040
Speaker 2: Awesome, this was a blast.

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01:21:37,479 --> 01:21:41,720
Speaker 3: I'm glad we got into movie minute there, but we

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01:21:41,800 --> 01:21:43,680
Speaker 3: tried to tie it back so maybe we could do

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01:21:43,720 --> 01:21:45,559
Speaker 3: more of that in the mailback.

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01:21:45,680 --> 01:21:46,600
Speaker 2: But thanks for having me.

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01:21:46,680 --> 01:21:57,000
Speaker 1: This was a blast. Thanks PJ. This episode of Designing

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01:21:57,000 --> 01:22:01,679
Speaker 1: Golf was produced by Will Balsam. Thank you. Will keep

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01:22:01,680 --> 01:22:05,719
Speaker 1: in mind that Frida Egg Golf Volume two, our coffee

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01:22:05,720 --> 01:22:09,519
Speaker 1: table book, is available for pre order right now go

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01:22:09,600 --> 01:22:13,280
Speaker 1: to pro shop dot Thefrida Egg dot com. We're proud

1394
01:22:13,280 --> 01:22:16,280
Speaker 1: of what we have produced there. These these course profiles

1395
01:22:16,280 --> 01:22:19,480
Speaker 1: that we write, the photos associated with them, the illustrations

1396
01:22:19,880 --> 01:22:23,360
Speaker 1: that Cameron Hurdis and Matt Rushis do are are are

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01:22:23,400 --> 01:22:27,519
Speaker 1: pretty excellent and so check this out. And you know,

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01:22:27,560 --> 01:22:29,719
Speaker 1: if you want a good deal on your coffee table book,

1399
01:22:29,960 --> 01:22:32,320
Speaker 1: then join us in Fridagg Golf Club. Go to the

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01:22:32,320 --> 01:22:34,920
Speaker 1: Fridagg dot com slash membership to see what Friday Golf

1401
01:22:34,920 --> 01:22:37,280
Speaker 1: Club is all about. But lots of fun to be

1402
01:22:37,360 --> 01:22:40,040
Speaker 1: had there as well. Thank you for listening and we'll

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01:22:40,080 --> 01:22:42,439
Speaker 1: be back again soon with another episode.