Speaker 1: I'm Ken Kappas. I am a director. I directed the
Speaker 1: pilot of the Office and many other episodes. Hello listeners,
Speaker 1: it is another day, and that means it's time for
Speaker 1: another episode of the Office Deep Dive. As always, I
Speaker 1: am your host, Brian Baumgartner. Today I am being joined
Speaker 1: once again by our spectacular director Ken Kappas for round
Speaker 1: two of our conversation, and this time we really dive
Speaker 1: straight into his search for the truth, because that's what
Speaker 1: it was right the lengths he took to make sure
Speaker 1: that the show felt real, felt spontaneous, felt improvised, and
Speaker 1: that we as a cast out like we really were
Speaker 1: a part of the dunder Mifflin world. I am just
Speaker 1: in awe of him. That being said, I do want
Speaker 1: to get one thing straight, Ken, Well, he expressed some
Speaker 1: doubts about my abilities in the basketball episode, Season one,
Speaker 1: episode five. For those of you who don't know, he
Speaker 1: said that I was so good and made so many
Speaker 1: shots in a row that it had to have been
Speaker 1: visual effects. Well, sir, first of all, I'm flattered because
Speaker 1: that's hilarious, But I hate to break it to you.
Speaker 1: I am just that good. But enough about me. I
Speaker 1: could talk about me all day. But since we're talking
Speaker 1: about skills, Ken truly has so many of them. We
Speaker 1: owe so much of the office to his vision and
Speaker 1: his talent, and we were so lucky to have him
Speaker 1: on our team. Without further ado, get ready to be
Speaker 1: swept away into the wonderful, magical world of Ken Kappas
Speaker 1: Bubble and Squeak. I love it, Bubble and Squeak, Bubble
Speaker 1: and Squeaker Cookie every month left over from the nat before. Um,
Speaker 1: how do you feel I mean, because you fully committed
Speaker 1: to the documentary concept, how do you feel like that
Speaker 1: influenced the storytelling? Well? I think there. I mean, there's
Speaker 1: a couple of things we did in the pilot and
Speaker 1: and pretty much carried throughout the series. But one of
Speaker 1: them was is that the ideas that the camera is
Speaker 1: actually not always in the right place for the scene
Speaker 1: because as a documentary filmmaker, I'm not sure what the
Speaker 1: scene is. So that occasionally if we made a decision,
Speaker 1: like if if Steve's character makes an entrance from his office,
Speaker 1: that the camera might be over near the water cooler,
Speaker 1: the last place you would really put the camera to
Speaker 1: catch it good, And then Steve would say something which
Speaker 1: would catch our attention, we'd have to whip pan over
Speaker 1: to find him, and ideally, by the time we found him,
Speaker 1: he's finished saying whatever he had to say, so that
Speaker 1: we end up landing on him for a bit of
Speaker 1: dead air. That to me, was one of the key
Speaker 1: strategies in how we we shot. So the Pilot in
Speaker 1: particular has these kind of wonderfully long, weird pauses, and
Speaker 1: part of that is due to the you know, cinema
Speaker 1: verite style of shooting. When Greg and I held the
Speaker 1: production meeting for the pilot, and Greg and I had
Speaker 1: discussed this in advance, but I sort of announced to
Speaker 1: the people at the production meeting, which includes all the
Speaker 1: you know, the heads of the different departments make a pair, camera, sound, etcetera,
Speaker 1: that things that in any other show would get them
Speaker 1: fired are encouraged in this show. So, for instance, if
Speaker 1: you are a camera operator and you pan past the
Speaker 1: subject and then have to like sort of backtrack rather
Speaker 1: you know sloppily, that's acceptable and actually not acceptable, it's good.
Speaker 1: So I think that all of those things. We've never
Speaker 1: talked about it, but hopefully what it did for the
Speaker 1: cast is make everyone feel like they were on all
Speaker 1: the time, you know, that wasn't my shot, your shot.
Speaker 1: It wasn't like, you know, nobody knew when they might
Speaker 1: be the subject of the scene. Well, and the other
Speaker 1: thing that you did. You know, traditionally you have marks
Speaker 1: on the floor that tell the actors where to go,
Speaker 1: and on the office there were no marks. There were
Speaker 1: no marks, and they're also in theory. There was no
Speaker 1: regard for whether you were actually facing the camera at
Speaker 1: certain times. You know, in a traditional you know, multi
Speaker 1: camera comedy, everyone is is entered in a very you know,
Speaker 1: frontal view. But suddenly in our pilot, we were able
Speaker 1: to do things like just kind of be you know,
Speaker 1: long for long stretches on a profile, or not quite
Speaker 1: see someone well. So, I mean, I do think we
Speaker 1: Greg and I were very specific about scenes that were
Speaker 1: more like you know, spy camera scenes. And I'm thinking
Speaker 1: in the pilot, particularly of there's a wonderful scene towards
Speaker 1: the end at the reception desk with Jim and Pam
Speaker 1: and Roy. I think Pam actually leaves the reception desk
Speaker 1: and there's just this long, long moment where like Roy
Speaker 1: and Jim are just leaning and then Jim finally says
Speaker 1: something really innocuous and royal like bolts out of there.
Speaker 1: It's a very weird. And so that's a scene where
Speaker 1: those two characters are not aware that they're being filmed,
Speaker 1: and we sort of hid behind a buy not a bush,
Speaker 1: but like a plant. And you know, I think that
Speaker 1: that was a good example of, particularly for a character
Speaker 1: like Jim who's hyper aware of the camera, that we
Speaker 1: get to catch him without you know, him being aware
Speaker 1: of it. And I think even at the beginning, as
Speaker 1: I recall, like Steve would have a look directly at
Speaker 1: the lens and then a look at me standing next
Speaker 1: to the camera, and I'm gonna have to like rack
Speaker 1: my brain now a little bit. I think the idea
Speaker 1: is if he looked at the camera, he was sort
Speaker 1: of it was something he was doing as if playing
Speaker 1: to the camera. But if he looked at me, it
Speaker 1: was because he wanted he was worried that the camera
Speaker 1: caught something that he didn't want to be seen. And again,
Speaker 1: I'm I'm not sure exactly, but I know what you mean. Yes, well,
Speaker 1: I want to skip ahead because you just brought this
Speaker 1: up and kind of talk about probably the most famous
Speaker 1: spice shot scene in the series. I told Jenna that
Speaker 1: nothing could shut down production like a big Jim and
Speaker 1: Pam moment. Like I was like, if you were scheduled
Speaker 1: to work that day and you were like, oh, Jim
Speaker 1: and Pam are gonna kiss. Oh, please shoot me out
Speaker 1: before because they're gonna talk for a long time. Um,
Speaker 1: but talk to me a little bit about how that moment.
Speaker 1: What was that. My recollection was there was a lot
Speaker 1: of conversation about that and capturing that spy shot of
Speaker 1: them finally coming in it and doing that kiss, Well,
Speaker 1: there was a lot of conversation. I think that John
Speaker 1: and Jenna had a lot of uh, what's the right word. Well,
Speaker 1: they were anxious about the scene. You know. I spoke
Speaker 1: with Jenna about this about a year ago, and I
Speaker 1: went back and looked at the shooting schedule for that
Speaker 1: episode Casino Night, because I misremembered something. I thought that
Speaker 1: we shot the kiss like at the very end of
Speaker 1: the schedule, but in fact we didn't. We shot at
Speaker 1: and I think the second last day of the schedule.
Speaker 1: The last day was the night work the you know,
Speaker 1: the exterior scene between Pam and Jim where they basically
Speaker 1: break up. It's the penultimate scene before he comes back
Speaker 1: in and kisses her. So it was just interesting to
Speaker 1: me that for the two actors, they were playing the
Speaker 1: outcome before they played the scene. That interesting, and obviously
Speaker 1: they played both scenes well. But in terms of the
Speaker 1: camera placement, I definitely remember talking to Greg about, you know,
Speaker 1: we wanted to a be hidden, and we wanted to
Speaker 1: find the furthest place to be, and that was that,
Speaker 1: you know, there's a little glass partition, you know, kind
Speaker 1: of near where the water cooler is, and we just
Speaker 1: hid back there. To me, the most interesting thing about
Speaker 1: the moment is the fact that if you shoot a kiss,
Speaker 1: traditionally you want to be able to see two faces.
Speaker 1: And I've you know, directed a few kisses before, and
Speaker 1: you and there's always like you usually maybe you'll put
Speaker 1: people in a kind of fifty fifty orientation to the camera,
Speaker 1: or you have separate shots. But this show, of course,
Speaker 1: that's not what we do. And I think I don't
Speaker 1: remember if it was Greg's suggestion or if it if
Speaker 1: the actors came up with it or that, or maybe
Speaker 1: they just happened. But we don't see Jenna's reaction to
Speaker 1: the kiss. We see John and they kiss and they
Speaker 1: break and I think they look at each other for
Speaker 1: a beat, and that's the end of the scene. But
Speaker 1: I think one of the things I've often thought about
Speaker 1: with that shot is as an audience, you get the
Speaker 1: pleasure of being Pam. You're being looked at by Jim.
Speaker 1: You you don't see her reactions, so you get to
Speaker 1: as an audience kind of right it yourself. And I
Speaker 1: think that shot and it's you know, very it's very simple,
Speaker 1: but I think that's to me, the thing that's most
Speaker 1: noteworthy about it is is is that the the person
Speaker 1: who's surprised by the kiss, you don't see their face.
Speaker 1: That's very interesting. It occurs to me too. And this
Speaker 1: is probably more greg I'll just side and note that.
Speaker 1: But you know, the idea that because you guys were
Speaker 1: so concerned about the reality and having it beat in
Speaker 1: a real place, happening at a real time, there was
Speaker 1: an insist that around the time the episode aired was
Speaker 1: when this was happening. So if there weren't any episodes
Speaker 1: airing over the summer, then the documentary crew was on
Speaker 1: vacation and we didn't see that. And there was something
Speaker 1: so compelling in the storytelling going from that kiss where
Speaker 1: in Friends, right Ross and Rachel kiss, and then when
Speaker 1: they come back, it's the moment immediately after they kiss,
Speaker 1: whereas this when we come back again, Jim's gone, and
Speaker 1: so it's about finding out everything gradually over time, what
Speaker 1: happened and why he left and the fallout from the kiss.
Speaker 1: I just, you know what, it's great. I've never and yes,
Speaker 1: I mean, I think that's kudos to Greg and writing
Speaker 1: staff because what's nice about that is information is not
Speaker 1: served up to you. You have to kind of, you know,
Speaker 1: discover what's going on, work for it, to have to
Speaker 1: work for it, and I think it makes you a
Speaker 1: more attentive viewer, and I think it's more gratifying as
Speaker 1: an audience member. You're kind of throwing into the deep bend. Wait,
Speaker 1: what's going on? Why is Jim? What? What desk is this?
Speaker 1: Where is he? You know, Stanford what? You know? Like
Speaker 1: it's like you get to kind of you get to
Speaker 1: kind of uh, you know, do a little detective work
Speaker 1: as you're watching the episode. You know, one thing about
Speaker 1: that is it mimics what does happen in our lives.
Speaker 1: We work with people and then they go away, you know,
Speaker 1: they leave, they get another job, they get married. So
Speaker 1: I feel like I mean, I think I've never talked
Speaker 1: to Greg about it, but I think he was constantly
Speaker 1: trying to make sure that you know, there was, you know,
Speaker 1: a sense of the unexpected. How do you feel like
Speaker 1: the directing the show changed as the show continued. Well,
Speaker 1: I mean I didn't work on every season, and I
Speaker 1: took a long break and and I will say that
Speaker 1: whatever season I was working in, I guess I felt
Speaker 1: like I just naturally circled back to those impulses that
Speaker 1: we had during the pilot. Not because I was trying
Speaker 1: to like, you know, make a point like let's remember
Speaker 1: what we did. It was more like that's all I
Speaker 1: knew what to do, so that even though occasionally I
Speaker 1: would watch an episode and you know, maybe it was
Speaker 1: covered in a slightly more conventional way than I might have.
Speaker 1: I think my instinct when I, you know, when I
Speaker 1: did direct, was to try and um, just kind of
Speaker 1: respect them the original impulses and and again respect you know,
Speaker 1: Greg's original ideas to making things a little dirtier a
Speaker 1: little bit. Yeah. And by the way, it's it's easy
Speaker 1: to forget those things you go away, you work on
Speaker 1: a different show or a different film that has a
Speaker 1: whole other style and then you have come back and
Speaker 1: unlearned some things. But I feel like, yeah, I mean,
Speaker 1: I definitely remember. I mean along the way like shooting
Speaker 1: the hundredth episode Company Picnic, and there was a lot
Speaker 1: of it was actually a complicated episode for a lot
Speaker 1: of reasons, including I would just say to all writers,
Speaker 1: the writer producers don't write complicated dialogue scenes while people
Speaker 1: are playing volleyball. If there's one thing I learned doing
Speaker 1: this show that no volleyball while talking. But I remember
Speaker 1: just feeling like I had to kind of again unlearned
Speaker 1: things I was doing on different films and shows and
Speaker 1: kind of go back to kind of the show's roots.
Speaker 1: So I hope that that was a good thing for
Speaker 1: everyone to you know that, But you know, but that's
Speaker 1: that was just my natural instinct was to kind of
Speaker 1: circle back to the beginning. Absolutely. Did you ever have
Speaker 1: conversations with other directors who are about to work on
Speaker 1: who maybe hadn't been on the show yet. Do you
Speaker 1: remember talking to anybody or get offering any advice on
Speaker 1: that or well, Greg and I did when he you know,
Speaker 1: reag and I definitely did. The first episode Greg directed
Speaker 1: is one of the very best ones. You know. Basketball, Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's fantastic. But by the way, Brian, Okay, So I
Speaker 1: when I first saw the cut of Basketball, I assumed
Speaker 1: that was a visual effect. No, that wasn't you're doing
Speaker 1: because how there's like six in a row. I think
Speaker 1: there's thirteen on the TV there is. There were no
Speaker 1: ten in a row. And literally when I saw it,
Speaker 1: I go how how? I literally my mind went to
Speaker 1: how did they get the money for that effect? They
Speaker 1: hired me? Really chiefly? Um, yeah, no, that was met. Um.
Speaker 1: You know before when you were talking also about about
Speaker 1: having to re remember things, you know, Kevin started to
Speaker 1: look into the lens quite a bit as the series
Speaker 1: extended out, um, when he had secrets, when he was
Speaker 1: being childish about something. And I remember right when the
Speaker 1: show ended and starting to work on other shows and going,
Speaker 1: oh god, I can't look in the lens. What am
Speaker 1: I doing looking at the lens? You're not allowed to
Speaker 1: do that any any other show. Come on, get it together? Um,
Speaker 1: so yes, I know what you mean. I definitely remember
Speaker 1: a feeling, Um, what's the right way to put it? Like,
Speaker 1: you know, like the Prodigal Son or something that I've
Speaker 1: been away and come back and would I be accepted.
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, it was truly. I always remember. I
Speaker 1: always remember how happy everyone was when you came back.
Speaker 1: I'm glad the but you know, I I it's funny.
Speaker 1: I was thinking about something I did in the in
Speaker 1: the early episodes. I don't know if other directors did it.
Speaker 1: I think it ended, but that was the idea that
Speaker 1: during our you know, talking head interviews, that I used
Speaker 1: to sit next to the camera. Yes, and I think
Speaker 1: that that was not something that other directors did as much,
Speaker 1: or maybe not at all. I never talked to anyone
Speaker 1: about it, but I remember like coming back after a
Speaker 1: few seasons, and definitely at the towards at the end
Speaker 1: to that, Like you know, Jenna thought it was strange
Speaker 1: suddenly that I was there sitting at the camera again
Speaker 1: because it had been a while since that had done well.
Speaker 1: It's it's funny. I was always I was of two
Speaker 1: minds because you're such an open person and you and
Speaker 1: I believe that the energy that you you give out,
Speaker 1: you're creating an environment and you're wanting as the interviewer
Speaker 1: to just be present for the actor who's talking. So
Speaker 1: for me, if there was someone there who was you know,
Speaker 1: I'm picking up you know, very concerned, learned about the words,
Speaker 1: were thinking about something else and looking down that wasn't
Speaker 1: helpful to have that. It was way easier for me
Speaker 1: to look at a mark than to look at somebody
Speaker 1: who was doing something that wasn't helpful to me. I know.
Speaker 1: There were also occasions, especially with some of our writer directors,
Speaker 1: um that could not stop laughing, So it was way
Speaker 1: better get them in the corner or in the other room,
Speaker 1: um to be right there. I do remember the beginning
Speaker 1: of the series that one of the things, and I'm
Speaker 1: not a writer, well I don't fancy myself a writer,
Speaker 1: but I remember hoping that we could actually have a
Speaker 1: conversation that would lead into the scripted talking headline. And
Speaker 1: that was something you know, we did on occasion. And
Speaker 1: again I make no claim of being able to improv,
Speaker 1: but it was like, what could I set up that
Speaker 1: would kind of lead to the line? Yes, and that
Speaker 1: that you know, but I do think after a while
Speaker 1: that wasn't necessary, but it was a fun thing to
Speaker 1: do at the top of the series. Absolutely. I do remember,
Speaker 1: by the way, when you were talking about being trapped
Speaker 1: at work and now I remember something Greg and I discussed,
Speaker 1: and that was where those interviews would be shot. So
Speaker 1: they're generally two places, and one angle, of course is
Speaker 1: each actor sits with the glass facing the bullpen behind them,
Speaker 1: and the other places with your back to the wall
Speaker 1: the opposite wall. And I remember Greg very specifically saying
Speaker 1: he loved the idea that that frame would have a
Speaker 1: little sliver of the window in it, but just a
Speaker 1: little bit, because there's no reason to see that you
Speaker 1: could get out. And those are and and I remember
Speaker 1: that see all a lot of where John's John shots
Speaker 1: are well, I think and I had totally forgotten about this,
Speaker 1: that John's was toward the outside because he dreamt of
Speaker 1: getting out. Absolutely, that was absolutely part of that was
Speaker 1: the subtext of I mean, it wasn't his subtext, but
Speaker 1: that was Greg's idea that you know, I love that
Speaker 1: that there was enough, there was something that objectively told
Speaker 1: the story of his hopes and his dreams. You know,
Speaker 1: whereas Kevin, most of the characters was shot so you
Speaker 1: could only see the bullpen the office because that's where
Speaker 1: they were going to be forever. Yes, I remember that
Speaker 1: that's actually and yet that angle on John only featured
Speaker 1: a little bit of that window exactly. How was shooting
Speaker 1: outside of the bullpen? I mean, we have these physical
Speaker 1: barriers that exist within the office. How was moving outside
Speaker 1: as as we started to, you know, especially after the
Speaker 1: first two seasons and going more to locations. Did that
Speaker 1: create more issues to keep the style and the look
Speaker 1: of the show the same? Or let me I'll just
Speaker 1: speak about one episode, and that's Booze Cruise because obviously
Speaker 1: we sure we shot on a real boat. Where were
Speaker 1: we and Cavi Long Beach. And one of the things
Speaker 1: I loved is and I didn't choose the boat, Gregg
Speaker 1: chose the boat, But the boat for me was like
Speaker 1: very claustrophobic. I felt like we were it was like
Speaker 1: just dunder Mifflin floating in the water. I mean, I
Speaker 1: felt like everything about that space was very tight constricted.
Speaker 1: It was hard to shoot in it. Kind of again,
Speaker 1: it sort of recreated the conditions of the workplace on
Speaker 1: the water. So in a funny way, I like the
Speaker 1: fact that, you know, sometimes we'd go on location and
Speaker 1: we'd basically be in the same kind of place. Yes,
Speaker 1: we're on vacation for a fun night out, and we're
Speaker 1: just actually in the office again, um well, booze cruise.
Speaker 1: The seven seconds of silence that happened between Jim and Pam.
Speaker 1: Was that an organic moment that happened. Did you have
Speaker 1: to fight for that time of silence or I don't know,
Speaker 1: Just talk me through that a little bit, like the
Speaker 1: shooting of it and or the decision to allow it
Speaker 1: to stay in. I mean, the length of the silence
Speaker 1: was not something we planned obviously to the second, but
Speaker 1: I think you know, John and Jenna both knew that,
Speaker 1: you know, there were no rules about pace, and so
Speaker 1: it was not objectionable to, you know, let the moment linger.
Speaker 1: I don't remember when we shot it feeling like, oh
Speaker 1: my god, this is it. We've broken the record for
Speaker 1: longest moment around, of course, but I do remember mostly
Speaker 1: that it was that it felt very truthful. It could
Speaker 1: have been half that length, It didn't really matter. It was,
Speaker 1: you know, it just felt very truthful, and I turned
Speaker 1: in my cut and it probably worked with Greg on
Speaker 1: the cut, but it was Greg who ultimately, you know,
Speaker 1: fought to keep it in at that length. I only
Speaker 1: hope that by that point in the in the series,
Speaker 1: it wasn't that big a fight because it was clear
Speaker 1: what we were doing, and what we were doing was
Speaker 1: compelling for me. It's that classic thing of you know,
Speaker 1: if you're involved, it doesn't you don't feel that the
Speaker 1: time passing, you know, you're just you're involved, you know.
Speaker 1: And and and for those two actors, again, they were
Speaker 1: just so invested in that moment. I don't think they
Speaker 1: had a clue that they were, you know, stretching the
Speaker 1: limits of what's acceptable on a broadcast our television. Right.
Speaker 1: Maybe they were, maybe they were so Greg approached you
Speaker 1: about coming back for the finale, or he asked you,
Speaker 1: or how did that come about? He asked me to
Speaker 1: come back for the finale. It had been two or
Speaker 1: three seasons since I worked on the show. But I
Speaker 1: think Greg wanted to create a sense of coming full
Speaker 1: circle and returning to the show's origins. And I also
Speaker 1: was a little daunted by the fact that and this
Speaker 1: is a good thing, that so many of the characters,
Speaker 1: so many of the characters who began the series, you know,
Speaker 1: in secondary roles. Everybody's role had grown and and and
Speaker 1: everybody had a complicated story to tell, and uh, how
Speaker 1: are we going to do that? Well? It took longer
Speaker 1: than a normal show that's for sure. It's like a
Speaker 1: feature length finality. How involved were you leading up to
Speaker 1: the table read? You know, the table read became a
Speaker 1: very big deal, as you recall, with a humongous audience
Speaker 1: in this giant auditorium on some location. I can't even
Speaker 1: remember where it was. But here's how I I wasn't.
Speaker 1: Here's what I up and with the table reading is
Speaker 1: you know, I I was used to reading the scene description,
Speaker 1: and so I just sort of casually said to Greg,
Speaker 1: would you like me to read the scene description? And
Speaker 1: he said absolutely not. I thought, WHOA, Okay, I don't
Speaker 1: need to read it. Little did I realize what he
Speaker 1: was planning. He was planning this sort of table reading
Speaker 1: extravag answer. Yes, yes, had you read it before? Oh yeah,
Speaker 1: I definitely because we none of us had, really no,
Speaker 1: I mean we had the scripts delivered. I mean, if
Speaker 1: some people did, it was because they had a soft morning,
Speaker 1: you know. By by later in the seasons, we were not.
Speaker 1: And it wasn't a product of them keeping it a secret.
Speaker 1: They just they were working and we were shooting, and
Speaker 1: then suddenly it would be table read day and there
Speaker 1: would be an episode in the in this trailer, well,
Speaker 1: I would definitely. I read the finale, and I was
Speaker 1: also part of the discussions about Steve's cameo appearance, right,
Speaker 1: I guess I don't know if you could call it
Speaker 1: a cameo appear. It's his return and how we were
Speaker 1: planning to keep it a secret. It's still remarkable to
Speaker 1: me that it was kept a secret, considering the fact
Speaker 1: that he, you know, his appearance in the finale is
Speaker 1: at a wedding where they were like, you know a
Speaker 1: lot of people, yes, So I don't it doesn't make
Speaker 1: any sense to me that it was kept secret, but
Speaker 1: it was. I will say that I was pestered by
Speaker 1: different news people and uh, I honed my you know,
Speaker 1: fibbing skills quite well. Well, I somehow knew the day before,
Speaker 1: or a couple of days before, I knew that it
Speaker 1: was coming. Why did you feel that was important for
Speaker 1: him to come back, or did you Well, I mean,
Speaker 1: aside from the just you know, the kind of excitement
Speaker 1: getting the whole gang back together again, I mean, I
Speaker 1: feel like it it's sort of speaks a lot to
Speaker 1: Michael's care act that he would show up for the wedding.
Speaker 1: Just emotionally, it felt like where Michael was. I mean
Speaker 1: that Michael's evolution over the course of the series, it
Speaker 1: made perfect sense that he wasn't going to miss that absolutely.
Speaker 1: Why do you think that The Office has not just maintained,
Speaker 1: but why is the show more popular now than it
Speaker 1: was even when it aired. What is it about the
Speaker 1: show that you think you know that so many people
Speaker 1: respond to? Yeah, I wonder if all there were Let
Speaker 1: me think about that. I have ag that's a good question. Oh,
Speaker 1: I have an answer. I feel like the continuing popularity
Speaker 1: of the show has a lot to do with the
Speaker 1: fact that most of us do work in really dreary
Speaker 1: jobs and feel trapped in the workplace, and I feel like,
Speaker 1: in a funny way, the show really honors that experience.
Speaker 1: And UH speak very personally. My you know, I have
Speaker 1: a brother who is younger than me, who works at
Speaker 1: a store in our hometown, and when you go in,
Speaker 1: you know, behind the counter of the store are all
Speaker 1: the Office bobble heads, all of them. And I think,
Speaker 1: in a weird way, it's less about the fact that
Speaker 1: I worked on the show and more about the fact
Speaker 1: that working people connect with these characters. Let me ask
Speaker 1: you this, do you think The Office contributed to or
Speaker 1: the culture sort of at the time, and reality television
Speaker 1: started to become larger, and here we were doing a
Speaker 1: scripted television show to have it attempt to be done really,
Speaker 1: I mean, Randall Einhorn and Matt Stone where reality TV
Speaker 1: camera people. I don't know. I just there's something interesting
Speaker 1: there to me about that. Reality TV started happening, you know,
Speaker 1: unmasked at that time, and here we were a rifted
Speaker 1: comedy show attempting to do the same thing. I don't know.
Speaker 1: I will say that a lot of people you know
Speaker 1: that I talked to about the show assumed that it
Speaker 1: was improvised, and are they're surprised when I say it
Speaker 1: was actually very carefully scripted. Obviously scripted to sound, you know,
Speaker 1: off the cuff at times, but it wasn't a show
Speaker 1: like imagine Curb your Enthusiasm. Is that I've never worked
Speaker 1: on it, but I imagine it's mostly improvised or Christopher
Speaker 1: guests films, which were remarkable, But the office was the opposite.
Speaker 1: It was very and I hate the word formatted, so
Speaker 1: I won't use it, but it was a very well crafted.
Speaker 1: Each week was a well crafted script. So I feel
Speaker 1: like in a way. It probably fooled people, and it
Speaker 1: may have created a you know, it may have said
Speaker 1: an example that other people followed in the wrong ways. Farthing,
Speaker 1: because it was actually very much about you know, there's
Speaker 1: so much good writing craft going on, and I think
Speaker 1: the fact that people were fooled into thinking it was
Speaker 1: spontaneous or improvised as a tribute to how well written
Speaker 1: it was written and directed. Yes, absolutely, Um, what are
Speaker 1: you most proud of about your contribution to the show
Speaker 1: or the show itself? I'm very proud of the fact
Speaker 1: that there were a lot of naysayers at the beginning.
Speaker 1: There are a lot of people who said this will fail,
Speaker 1: and that it didn't fail. Actually it it succeeded, But
Speaker 1: it succeeded on its own terms. And that's what I'm
Speaker 1: proud of. That's so great. Put on your headphones for
Speaker 1: one second. Hey, will you play that clip? I thought
Speaker 1: it was weird when you picked us to make a documentary,
Speaker 1: but all in all, I think an ordinary paper company
Speaker 1: like Dundermith Flynn was a great subject for a documentary.
Speaker 1: There's a lot of beauty and ordinary things. Isn't that
Speaker 1: kind of the point? Oh? Yeah, that is the point.
Speaker 1: That's why it's continued to be popular. Okay, so well,
Speaker 1: I mean that. I mean, to me, what that says
Speaker 1: is that's what Greg thought. The point was, what do
Speaker 1: you think you think beauty and the ordinary? Yeah, I
Speaker 1: mean I also feel like they they you know, just
Speaker 1: as a director, it was such a pleasure and a
Speaker 1: privilege to kind of do something that didn't go down
Speaker 1: the middle of the road, and I think audiences respect that,
Speaker 1: and I love that about the show. I actually do
Speaker 1: remember a different ending to the finale as I recall.
Speaker 1: The original ending was, you know, the night before, or
Speaker 1: rather the night of the story, the story that all
Speaker 1: the characters decide they need to take the plant planty
Speaker 1: plant that's in the bullpen, that's been in the bullpen
Speaker 1: for nine seasons, like sad looking plant and everybody, somebody,
Speaker 1: maybe I don't know, is a Kevin. Somebody makes a
Speaker 1: suggestion that Planting needs to be liberated, Planting needs to escape,
Speaker 1: and so everyone marches out of the office with a
Speaker 1: two or three of the characters carrying Planty and everyone's
Speaker 1: chanting Planty, Planty. The entire ensemble then goes outside of
Speaker 1: the building in the parking lot in front of the
Speaker 1: under Mifflin's building and they plant planty And the original ending,
Speaker 1: as Greg and I discussed, was that, you know, everyone
Speaker 1: kind of wanders away. Everyone's been drinking, and everyone's you know,
Speaker 1: feeling a little sad, but in festive, and we hold
Speaker 1: on this empty parking lot with the plant newly planted,
Speaker 1: the one that was under Mifflin is now outside. And
Speaker 1: as I recall, Greg's original plan was that there'd be
Speaker 1: a dissolved through to the next morning, and you just
Speaker 1: see the empty parking lot at dawn with this plant
Speaker 1: in its new home. Fascinating. I totally forgot that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's great, and um, I'm not surprised that Greg decided
Speaker 1: to end with Pam's drawing. I mean, it's fantastic, it's wonderful,
Speaker 1: and and yes, Pam's final speech about finding the beauty
Speaker 1: in the ordinary is certainly it could not be a
Speaker 1: better summation statement. But going back to the offbeatness of
Speaker 1: the show, I must say I loved the idea of
Speaker 1: a show that ended with a shot of an empty
Speaker 1: parking lot and a plant plant. It's amazing. That's amazing. Well,
Speaker 1: we you know, I talked to Jenna some about it,
Speaker 1: and you know I was saying to her, or like
Speaker 1: if the Office was a was a being a person,
Speaker 1: or that Pam was clearly the heart of the show. Obviously,
Speaker 1: she's you know, has the love interest with Jim. Dwight
Speaker 1: describes her as his best friend um in the end,
Speaker 1: and you know she's the one that has the last
Speaker 1: moment with Michael when he's leaving, and it's interesting that
Speaker 1: it it goes back to her. I do think she
Speaker 1: was the emotional heart of the show. Well, you know,
Speaker 1: I mean, I guess the only thing I would add
Speaker 1: to that is the show is a comedy, but within
Speaker 1: it is a romantic story. And the romantic story is
Speaker 1: not played for laughs. The romantic story is grounded and
Speaker 1: real and in a very you know, old fashioned sense.
Speaker 1: This is a show with clowns and lovers, yes, and
Speaker 1: a different show is different, you know, a wonderful show
Speaker 1: like Friend. The romantic storylines are funny, yes, But in
Speaker 1: the Office, Pam and Jim, we don't love them because
Speaker 1: of the laughs. We love them because of how you know,
Speaker 1: rounded and real that relationship is well and we couldn't
Speaker 1: because both Jenna and John aren't funny, so we wouldn't
Speaker 1: be able we wouldn't be able to. Thank God, I
Speaker 1: wasn't written that. I didn't say that because, um, I
Speaker 1: just so appreciate you being Oh. I mean, I am
Speaker 1: so honored that you gave us any time. And I
Speaker 1: just want you to know, just watching things through again
Speaker 1: and just you as a person, I love you, and
Speaker 1: I just I want you to know how much I
Speaker 1: respect you and give you full credit for the world
Speaker 1: that was created on the office with Greg. I love
Speaker 1: you too, and I miss you, my girls. It's been
Speaker 1: so I'm just so excited that you're doing this too.
Speaker 1: And it was also it's so comfortable to talk to
Speaker 1: you about this good I felt like, like, let's just
Speaker 1: talk about let's just talk about exactly. Um, thanks so much.
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, well you heard it here, folks. Instead
Speaker 1: of talking about the beauty of ordinary things, I could
Speaker 1: have been talking about the beauty of planting this whole time.
Speaker 1: And you know what, maybe that's not such a bad idea. Ken,
Speaker 1: thank you so much for taking the time to come
Speaker 1: talk to me. I so appreciate it. And to all
Speaker 1: of my listeners you know this, I appreciate you as well.
Speaker 1: Make sure to tune in next week or another behind
Speaker 1: the scenes look at the show in a brand new
Speaker 1: interview with editor Extraordinarior Dave Rogers. Oh, and don't forget
Speaker 1: you can order our very new and very exciting book,
Speaker 1: Welcome to dunder Mifflin, The Ultimate Oral History of the Office,
Speaker 1: on Amazon right now. Trust me, you are not going
Speaker 1: to want to miss it. But in the meantime, I
Speaker 1: just need you to do one thing, have a fan
Speaker 1: freaky tastic week. The Office. Deep Dive is hosted and
Speaker 1: executive produced by me Brian baum Gartner, alongside our executive
Speaker 1: producer Lang Lee. Our senior producer is Tessa Kramer. Our
Speaker 1: producers for this episode are Liz Hayes and Diego Tapia.
Speaker 1: My main man in the booth is Alec Moore. Our
Speaker 1: theme song Bubble and Squeak, performed by my great friend
Speaker 1: Creed Bratton, and the episode was mixed by seth Olandskip