WEBVTT - Ken Kwapis - Pt. 2 0:00:05.480 --> 0:00:09.160 I'm Ken Kappas. I am a director. I directed the 0:00:09.320 --> 0:00:19.919 pilot of the Office and many other episodes. Hello listeners, 0:00:20.360 --> 0:00:24.239 it is another day, and that means it's time for 0:00:24.520 --> 0:00:29.440 another episode of the Office Deep Dive. As always, I 0:00:29.480 --> 0:00:34.080 am your host, Brian Baumgartner. Today I am being joined 0:00:34.320 --> 0:00:39.240 once again by our spectacular director Ken Kappas for round 0:00:39.280 --> 0:00:44.040 two of our conversation, and this time we really dive 0:00:44.200 --> 0:00:48.360 straight into his search for the truth, because that's what 0:00:48.440 --> 0:00:52.400 it was right the lengths he took to make sure 0:00:52.479 --> 0:00:58.560 that the show felt real, felt spontaneous, felt improvised, and 0:00:58.600 --> 0:01:01.480 that we as a cast out like we really were 0:01:01.520 --> 0:01:05.200 a part of the dunder Mifflin world. I am just 0:01:05.680 --> 0:01:09.440 in awe of him. That being said, I do want 0:01:09.480 --> 0:01:14.200 to get one thing straight, Ken, Well, he expressed some 0:01:14.319 --> 0:01:19.119 doubts about my abilities in the basketball episode, Season one, 0:01:19.200 --> 0:01:22.000 episode five. For those of you who don't know, he 0:01:22.160 --> 0:01:26.080 said that I was so good and made so many 0:01:26.160 --> 0:01:28.759 shots in a row that it had to have been 0:01:28.920 --> 0:01:33.720 visual effects. Well, sir, first of all, I'm flattered because 0:01:33.720 --> 0:01:35.680 that's hilarious, But I hate to break it to you. 0:01:36.480 --> 0:01:43.399 I am just that good. But enough about me. I 0:01:43.440 --> 0:01:46.160 could talk about me all day. But since we're talking 0:01:46.160 --> 0:01:49.800 about skills, Ken truly has so many of them. We 0:01:49.920 --> 0:01:53.760 owe so much of the office to his vision and 0:01:53.920 --> 0:01:57.640 his talent, and we were so lucky to have him 0:01:57.720 --> 0:02:01.200 on our team. Without further ado, get ready to be 0:02:01.320 --> 0:02:06.000 swept away into the wonderful, magical world of Ken Kappas 0:02:09.960 --> 0:02:17.520 Bubble and Squeak. I love it, Bubble and Squeak, Bubble 0:02:17.520 --> 0:02:32.760 and Squeaker Cookie every month left over from the nat before. Um, 0:02:32.840 --> 0:02:36.800 how do you feel I mean, because you fully committed 0:02:37.240 --> 0:02:41.280 to the documentary concept, how do you feel like that 0:02:41.400 --> 0:02:45.280 influenced the storytelling? Well? I think there. I mean, there's 0:02:45.280 --> 0:02:47.919 a couple of things we did in the pilot and 0:02:48.080 --> 0:02:52.160 and pretty much carried throughout the series. But one of 0:02:52.200 --> 0:02:54.280 them was is that the ideas that the camera is 0:02:54.280 --> 0:02:57.000 actually not always in the right place for the scene 0:02:57.800 --> 0:03:00.400 because as a documentary filmmaker, I'm not sure what the 0:03:00.440 --> 0:03:04.880 scene is. So that occasionally if we made a decision, 0:03:04.919 --> 0:03:08.440 like if if Steve's character makes an entrance from his office, 0:03:08.840 --> 0:03:11.480 that the camera might be over near the water cooler, 0:03:11.560 --> 0:03:13.920 the last place you would really put the camera to 0:03:14.040 --> 0:03:17.440 catch it good, And then Steve would say something which 0:03:17.440 --> 0:03:19.920 would catch our attention, we'd have to whip pan over 0:03:20.000 --> 0:03:23.079 to find him, and ideally, by the time we found him, 0:03:23.080 --> 0:03:25.600 he's finished saying whatever he had to say, so that 0:03:25.680 --> 0:03:27.600 we end up landing on him for a bit of 0:03:27.680 --> 0:03:30.399 dead air. That to me, was one of the key 0:03:30.480 --> 0:03:34.440 strategies in how we we shot. So the Pilot in 0:03:34.520 --> 0:03:39.200 particular has these kind of wonderfully long, weird pauses, and 0:03:39.400 --> 0:03:41.680 part of that is due to the you know, cinema 0:03:41.760 --> 0:03:45.720 verite style of shooting. When Greg and I held the 0:03:45.800 --> 0:03:48.360 production meeting for the pilot, and Greg and I had 0:03:48.360 --> 0:03:51.640 discussed this in advance, but I sort of announced to 0:03:51.760 --> 0:03:54.680 the people at the production meeting, which includes all the 0:03:54.800 --> 0:03:59.880 you know, the heads of the different departments make a pair, camera, sound, etcetera, 0:04:00.360 --> 0:04:03.280 that things that in any other show would get them 0:04:03.360 --> 0:04:08.360 fired are encouraged in this show. So, for instance, if 0:04:08.440 --> 0:04:11.680 you are a camera operator and you pan past the 0:04:11.760 --> 0:04:15.520 subject and then have to like sort of backtrack rather 0:04:15.840 --> 0:04:20.480 you know sloppily, that's acceptable and actually not acceptable, it's good. 0:04:20.960 --> 0:04:24.080 So I think that all of those things. We've never 0:04:24.120 --> 0:04:26.280 talked about it, but hopefully what it did for the 0:04:26.320 --> 0:04:29.680 cast is make everyone feel like they were on all 0:04:29.720 --> 0:04:32.679 the time, you know, that wasn't my shot, your shot. 0:04:32.720 --> 0:04:35.719 It wasn't like, you know, nobody knew when they might 0:04:35.760 --> 0:04:39.160 be the subject of the scene. Well, and the other 0:04:39.240 --> 0:04:42.560 thing that you did. You know, traditionally you have marks 0:04:42.600 --> 0:04:44.800 on the floor that tell the actors where to go, 0:04:44.960 --> 0:04:47.680 and on the office there were no marks. There were 0:04:47.680 --> 0:04:51.479 no marks, and they're also in theory. There was no 0:04:51.600 --> 0:04:54.600 regard for whether you were actually facing the camera at 0:04:54.600 --> 0:04:58.280 certain times. You know, in a traditional you know, multi 0:04:58.279 --> 0:05:01.440 camera comedy, everyone is is entered in a very you know, 0:05:01.680 --> 0:05:05.080 frontal view. But suddenly in our pilot, we were able 0:05:05.080 --> 0:05:07.839 to do things like just kind of be you know, 0:05:08.000 --> 0:05:11.400 long for long stretches on a profile, or not quite 0:05:11.400 --> 0:05:14.360 see someone well. So, I mean, I do think we 0:05:14.520 --> 0:05:18.600 Greg and I were very specific about scenes that were 0:05:18.640 --> 0:05:20.960 more like you know, spy camera scenes. And I'm thinking 0:05:20.960 --> 0:05:24.320 in the pilot, particularly of there's a wonderful scene towards 0:05:24.320 --> 0:05:28.560 the end at the reception desk with Jim and Pam 0:05:28.600 --> 0:05:33.000 and Roy. I think Pam actually leaves the reception desk 0:05:33.040 --> 0:05:36.240 and there's just this long, long moment where like Roy 0:05:36.279 --> 0:05:40.480 and Jim are just leaning and then Jim finally says 0:05:40.560 --> 0:05:43.160 something really innocuous and royal like bolts out of there. 0:05:43.160 --> 0:05:46.800 It's a very weird. And so that's a scene where 0:05:46.839 --> 0:05:50.719 those two characters are not aware that they're being filmed, 0:05:51.040 --> 0:05:54.320 and we sort of hid behind a buy not a bush, 0:05:54.320 --> 0:05:56.880 but like a plant. And you know, I think that 0:05:56.880 --> 0:06:01.360 that was a good example of, particularly for a character 0:06:01.440 --> 0:06:03.919 like Jim who's hyper aware of the camera, that we 0:06:03.960 --> 0:06:07.080 get to catch him without you know, him being aware 0:06:07.080 --> 0:06:09.720 of it. And I think even at the beginning, as 0:06:09.720 --> 0:06:12.800 I recall, like Steve would have a look directly at 0:06:12.839 --> 0:06:15.920 the lens and then a look at me standing next 0:06:15.960 --> 0:06:18.599 to the camera, and I'm gonna have to like rack 0:06:18.680 --> 0:06:20.480 my brain now a little bit. I think the idea 0:06:20.640 --> 0:06:22.880 is if he looked at the camera, he was sort 0:06:22.920 --> 0:06:25.440 of it was something he was doing as if playing 0:06:25.480 --> 0:06:27.200 to the camera. But if he looked at me, it 0:06:27.240 --> 0:06:29.479 was because he wanted he was worried that the camera 0:06:29.520 --> 0:06:32.160 caught something that he didn't want to be seen. And again, 0:06:32.160 --> 0:06:36.280 I'm I'm not sure exactly, but I know what you mean. Yes, well, 0:06:36.320 --> 0:06:38.120 I want to skip ahead because you just brought this 0:06:38.240 --> 0:06:41.720 up and kind of talk about probably the most famous 0:06:42.080 --> 0:06:47.320 spice shot scene in the series. I told Jenna that 0:06:47.680 --> 0:06:52.320 nothing could shut down production like a big Jim and 0:06:52.400 --> 0:06:56.640 Pam moment. Like I was like, if you were scheduled 0:06:56.680 --> 0:06:59.280 to work that day and you were like, oh, Jim 0:06:59.279 --> 0:07:02.320 and Pam are gonna kiss. Oh, please shoot me out 0:07:02.360 --> 0:07:05.799 before because they're gonna talk for a long time. Um, 0:07:05.839 --> 0:07:08.280 but talk to me a little bit about how that moment. 0:07:08.400 --> 0:07:11.440 What was that. My recollection was there was a lot 0:07:11.480 --> 0:07:15.680 of conversation about that and capturing that spy shot of 0:07:15.720 --> 0:07:18.640 them finally coming in it and doing that kiss, Well, 0:07:18.640 --> 0:07:21.800 there was a lot of conversation. I think that John 0:07:21.840 --> 0:07:26.280 and Jenna had a lot of uh, what's the right word. Well, 0:07:26.320 --> 0:07:28.920 they were anxious about the scene. You know. I spoke 0:07:28.920 --> 0:07:31.520 with Jenna about this about a year ago, and I 0:07:31.560 --> 0:07:35.040 went back and looked at the shooting schedule for that 0:07:35.120 --> 0:07:39.280 episode Casino Night, because I misremembered something. I thought that 0:07:39.320 --> 0:07:41.360 we shot the kiss like at the very end of 0:07:41.360 --> 0:07:43.640 the schedule, but in fact we didn't. We shot at 0:07:44.480 --> 0:07:47.360 and I think the second last day of the schedule. 0:07:47.840 --> 0:07:50.360 The last day was the night work the you know, 0:07:50.400 --> 0:07:53.560 the exterior scene between Pam and Jim where they basically 0:07:53.640 --> 0:07:56.520 break up. It's the penultimate scene before he comes back 0:07:56.520 --> 0:07:59.000 in and kisses her. So it was just interesting to 0:07:59.040 --> 0:08:01.400 me that for the two actors, they were playing the 0:08:01.400 --> 0:08:04.760 outcome before they played the scene. That interesting, and obviously 0:08:04.840 --> 0:08:08.040 they played both scenes well. But in terms of the 0:08:08.080 --> 0:08:11.600 camera placement, I definitely remember talking to Greg about, you know, 0:08:11.640 --> 0:08:15.840 we wanted to a be hidden, and we wanted to 0:08:15.880 --> 0:08:18.800 find the furthest place to be, and that was that, 0:08:18.880 --> 0:08:21.800 you know, there's a little glass partition, you know, kind 0:08:21.800 --> 0:08:23.640 of near where the water cooler is, and we just 0:08:23.760 --> 0:08:26.800 hid back there. To me, the most interesting thing about 0:08:26.800 --> 0:08:30.040 the moment is the fact that if you shoot a kiss, 0:08:30.760 --> 0:08:34.160 traditionally you want to be able to see two faces. 0:08:35.080 --> 0:08:38.000 And I've you know, directed a few kisses before, and 0:08:38.040 --> 0:08:40.880 you and there's always like you usually maybe you'll put 0:08:40.920 --> 0:08:43.880 people in a kind of fifty fifty orientation to the camera, 0:08:44.520 --> 0:08:47.920 or you have separate shots. But this show, of course, 0:08:48.040 --> 0:08:51.240 that's not what we do. And I think I don't 0:08:51.240 --> 0:08:53.679 remember if it was Greg's suggestion or if it if 0:08:53.679 --> 0:08:55.760 the actors came up with it or that, or maybe 0:08:55.760 --> 0:08:58.880 they just happened. But we don't see Jenna's reaction to 0:08:59.000 --> 0:09:03.040 the kiss. We see John and they kiss and they 0:09:03.080 --> 0:09:04.800 break and I think they look at each other for 0:09:04.840 --> 0:09:06.520 a beat, and that's the end of the scene. But 0:09:06.640 --> 0:09:09.200 I think one of the things I've often thought about 0:09:09.240 --> 0:09:13.960 with that shot is as an audience, you get the 0:09:14.000 --> 0:09:20.199 pleasure of being Pam. You're being looked at by Jim. 0:09:20.280 --> 0:09:22.640 You you don't see her reactions, so you get to 0:09:22.760 --> 0:09:25.760 as an audience kind of right it yourself. And I 0:09:25.800 --> 0:09:28.440 think that shot and it's you know, very it's very simple, 0:09:29.200 --> 0:09:32.840 but I think that's to me, the thing that's most 0:09:32.880 --> 0:09:36.480 noteworthy about it is is is that the the person 0:09:36.520 --> 0:09:39.880 who's surprised by the kiss, you don't see their face. 0:09:40.840 --> 0:09:44.880 That's very interesting. It occurs to me too. And this 0:09:44.960 --> 0:09:47.480 is probably more greg I'll just side and note that. 0:09:47.520 --> 0:09:50.720 But you know, the idea that because you guys were 0:09:50.840 --> 0:09:55.120 so concerned about the reality and having it beat in 0:09:55.120 --> 0:09:59.160 a real place, happening at a real time, there was 0:09:59.320 --> 0:10:02.840 an insist that around the time the episode aired was 0:10:02.960 --> 0:10:07.840 when this was happening. So if there weren't any episodes 0:10:07.960 --> 0:10:11.640 airing over the summer, then the documentary crew was on 0:10:11.720 --> 0:10:15.200 vacation and we didn't see that. And there was something 0:10:15.320 --> 0:10:20.359 so compelling in the storytelling going from that kiss where 0:10:20.360 --> 0:10:23.079 in Friends, right Ross and Rachel kiss, and then when 0:10:23.080 --> 0:10:25.760 they come back, it's the moment immediately after they kiss, 0:10:26.160 --> 0:10:30.600 whereas this when we come back again, Jim's gone, and 0:10:30.640 --> 0:10:35.280 so it's about finding out everything gradually over time, what 0:10:35.480 --> 0:10:38.760 happened and why he left and the fallout from the kiss. 0:10:38.760 --> 0:10:42.480 I just, you know what, it's great. I've never and yes, 0:10:42.559 --> 0:10:45.600 I mean, I think that's kudos to Greg and writing 0:10:45.640 --> 0:10:50.440 staff because what's nice about that is information is not 0:10:50.600 --> 0:10:53.679 served up to you. You have to kind of, you know, 0:10:53.800 --> 0:10:55.960 discover what's going on, work for it, to have to 0:10:56.000 --> 0:10:57.560 work for it, and I think it makes you a 0:10:57.600 --> 0:11:01.240 more attentive viewer, and I think it's more gratifying as 0:11:01.280 --> 0:11:04.440 an audience member. You're kind of throwing into the deep bend. Wait, 0:11:04.480 --> 0:11:07.000 what's going on? Why is Jim? What? What desk is this? 0:11:07.040 --> 0:11:09.560 Where is he? You know, Stanford what? You know? Like 0:11:09.640 --> 0:11:11.640 it's like you get to kind of you get to 0:11:11.760 --> 0:11:14.560 kind of uh, you know, do a little detective work 0:11:14.559 --> 0:11:17.800 as you're watching the episode. You know, one thing about 0:11:17.880 --> 0:11:21.120 that is it mimics what does happen in our lives. 0:11:21.160 --> 0:11:23.440 We work with people and then they go away, you know, 0:11:23.600 --> 0:11:27.000 they leave, they get another job, they get married. So 0:11:27.080 --> 0:11:29.680 I feel like I mean, I think I've never talked 0:11:29.720 --> 0:11:32.600 to Greg about it, but I think he was constantly 0:11:32.600 --> 0:11:35.520 trying to make sure that you know, there was, you know, 0:11:35.559 --> 0:11:56.600 a sense of the unexpected. How do you feel like 0:11:56.640 --> 0:12:01.560 the directing the show changed as the show continued. Well, 0:12:01.600 --> 0:12:05.719 I mean I didn't work on every season, and I 0:12:06.559 --> 0:12:09.360 took a long break and and I will say that 0:12:09.920 --> 0:12:13.320 whatever season I was working in, I guess I felt 0:12:13.360 --> 0:12:18.360 like I just naturally circled back to those impulses that 0:12:18.440 --> 0:12:22.360 we had during the pilot. Not because I was trying 0:12:22.400 --> 0:12:25.840 to like, you know, make a point like let's remember 0:12:25.880 --> 0:12:28.160 what we did. It was more like that's all I 0:12:28.240 --> 0:12:31.520 knew what to do, so that even though occasionally I 0:12:31.520 --> 0:12:33.800 would watch an episode and you know, maybe it was 0:12:33.880 --> 0:12:37.200 covered in a slightly more conventional way than I might have. 0:12:37.640 --> 0:12:39.480 I think my instinct when I, you know, when I 0:12:39.520 --> 0:12:42.960 did direct, was to try and um, just kind of 0:12:43.000 --> 0:12:46.960 respect them the original impulses and and again respect you know, 0:12:47.000 --> 0:12:50.520 Greg's original ideas to making things a little dirtier a 0:12:50.520 --> 0:12:53.240 little bit. Yeah. And by the way, it's it's easy 0:12:53.320 --> 0:12:55.680 to forget those things you go away, you work on 0:12:55.679 --> 0:12:58.320 a different show or a different film that has a 0:12:58.440 --> 0:13:00.560 whole other style and then you have come back and 0:13:00.679 --> 0:13:03.560 unlearned some things. But I feel like, yeah, I mean, 0:13:03.600 --> 0:13:06.840 I definitely remember. I mean along the way like shooting 0:13:06.960 --> 0:13:09.760 the hundredth episode Company Picnic, and there was a lot 0:13:09.840 --> 0:13:13.439 of it was actually a complicated episode for a lot 0:13:13.480 --> 0:13:16.959 of reasons, including I would just say to all writers, 0:13:17.360 --> 0:13:22.360 the writer producers don't write complicated dialogue scenes while people 0:13:22.400 --> 0:13:27.080 are playing volleyball. If there's one thing I learned doing 0:13:27.120 --> 0:13:33.720 this show that no volleyball while talking. But I remember 0:13:33.800 --> 0:13:37.120 just feeling like I had to kind of again unlearned 0:13:37.160 --> 0:13:40.640 things I was doing on different films and shows and 0:13:40.720 --> 0:13:43.560 kind of go back to kind of the show's roots. 0:13:43.600 --> 0:13:46.040 So I hope that that was a good thing for 0:13:46.080 --> 0:13:49.280 everyone to you know that, But you know, but that's 0:13:49.360 --> 0:13:51.520 that was just my natural instinct was to kind of 0:13:51.760 --> 0:13:56.559 circle back to the beginning. Absolutely. Did you ever have 0:13:57.640 --> 0:14:02.040 conversations with other directors who are about to work on 0:14:02.080 --> 0:14:04.120 who maybe hadn't been on the show yet. Do you 0:14:04.120 --> 0:14:07.720 remember talking to anybody or get offering any advice on 0:14:07.760 --> 0:14:10.640 that or well, Greg and I did when he you know, 0:14:10.720 --> 0:14:13.920 reag and I definitely did. The first episode Greg directed 0:14:14.000 --> 0:14:16.520 is one of the very best ones. You know. Basketball, Yeah, 0:14:16.640 --> 0:14:19.680 it's fantastic. But by the way, Brian, Okay, So I 0:14:19.800 --> 0:14:22.479 when I first saw the cut of Basketball, I assumed 0:14:22.640 --> 0:14:27.160 that was a visual effect. No, that wasn't you're doing 0:14:27.760 --> 0:14:31.200 because how there's like six in a row. I think 0:14:31.560 --> 0:14:35.840 there's thirteen on the TV there is. There were no 0:14:36.040 --> 0:14:38.080 ten in a row. And literally when I saw it, 0:14:38.080 --> 0:14:41.080 I go how how? I literally my mind went to 0:14:41.640 --> 0:14:45.840 how did they get the money for that effect? They 0:14:45.920 --> 0:14:53.040 hired me? Really chiefly? Um, yeah, no, that was met. Um. 0:14:53.560 --> 0:14:56.200 You know before when you were talking also about about 0:14:56.240 --> 0:14:59.840 having to re remember things, you know, Kevin started to 0:15:00.160 --> 0:15:03.320 look into the lens quite a bit as the series 0:15:03.880 --> 0:15:07.720 extended out, um, when he had secrets, when he was 0:15:08.880 --> 0:15:12.360 being childish about something. And I remember right when the 0:15:12.360 --> 0:15:15.360 show ended and starting to work on other shows and going, 0:15:15.520 --> 0:15:17.440 oh god, I can't look in the lens. What am 0:15:17.440 --> 0:15:20.080 I doing looking at the lens? You're not allowed to 0:15:20.120 --> 0:15:25.400 do that any any other show. Come on, get it together? Um, 0:15:25.560 --> 0:15:28.440 so yes, I know what you mean. I definitely remember 0:15:29.080 --> 0:15:32.480 a feeling, Um, what's the right way to put it? Like, 0:15:32.520 --> 0:15:34.760 you know, like the Prodigal Son or something that I've 0:15:34.800 --> 0:15:37.640 been away and come back and would I be accepted. 0:15:37.800 --> 0:15:42.320 Oh my gosh, it was truly. I always remember. I 0:15:42.360 --> 0:15:45.640 always remember how happy everyone was when you came back. 0:15:46.160 --> 0:15:50.600 I'm glad the but you know, I I it's funny. 0:15:50.600 --> 0:15:55.320 I was thinking about something I did in the in 0:15:55.360 --> 0:15:59.280 the early episodes. I don't know if other directors did it. 0:15:59.800 --> 0:16:01.920 I think it ended, but that was the idea that 0:16:02.000 --> 0:16:04.920 during our you know, talking head interviews, that I used 0:16:04.960 --> 0:16:08.360 to sit next to the camera. Yes, and I think 0:16:08.400 --> 0:16:12.080 that that was not something that other directors did as much, 0:16:12.160 --> 0:16:14.600 or maybe not at all. I never talked to anyone 0:16:14.600 --> 0:16:18.000 about it, but I remember like coming back after a 0:16:18.000 --> 0:16:20.680 few seasons, and definitely at the towards at the end 0:16:20.720 --> 0:16:23.960 to that, Like you know, Jenna thought it was strange 0:16:24.080 --> 0:16:26.320 suddenly that I was there sitting at the camera again 0:16:26.320 --> 0:16:30.240 because it had been a while since that had done well. 0:16:30.280 --> 0:16:34.360 It's it's funny. I was always I was of two 0:16:34.360 --> 0:16:39.600 minds because you're such an open person and you and 0:16:39.680 --> 0:16:43.560 I believe that the energy that you you give out, 0:16:44.160 --> 0:16:48.560 you're creating an environment and you're wanting as the interviewer 0:16:48.640 --> 0:16:51.720 to just be present for the actor who's talking. So 0:16:51.840 --> 0:16:57.760 for me, if there was someone there who was you know, 0:16:57.840 --> 0:17:01.120 I'm picking up you know, very concerned, learned about the words, 0:17:01.240 --> 0:17:04.720 were thinking about something else and looking down that wasn't 0:17:04.720 --> 0:17:07.080 helpful to have that. It was way easier for me 0:17:07.119 --> 0:17:09.560 to look at a mark than to look at somebody 0:17:09.560 --> 0:17:12.600 who was doing something that wasn't helpful to me. I know. 0:17:12.680 --> 0:17:16.120 There were also occasions, especially with some of our writer directors, 0:17:16.640 --> 0:17:21.480 um that could not stop laughing, So it was way 0:17:21.520 --> 0:17:25.320 better get them in the corner or in the other room, 0:17:25.480 --> 0:17:28.639 um to be right there. I do remember the beginning 0:17:28.640 --> 0:17:31.040 of the series that one of the things, and I'm 0:17:31.080 --> 0:17:33.920 not a writer, well I don't fancy myself a writer, 0:17:34.000 --> 0:17:38.000 but I remember hoping that we could actually have a 0:17:38.000 --> 0:17:42.560 conversation that would lead into the scripted talking headline. And 0:17:42.640 --> 0:17:45.479 that was something you know, we did on occasion. And 0:17:45.520 --> 0:17:49.280 again I make no claim of being able to improv, 0:17:49.320 --> 0:17:51.199 but it was like, what could I set up that 0:17:51.240 --> 0:17:54.320 would kind of lead to the line? Yes, and that 0:17:54.480 --> 0:17:56.439 that you know, but I do think after a while 0:17:57.080 --> 0:17:59.159 that wasn't necessary, but it was a fun thing to 0:17:59.160 --> 0:18:02.119 do at the top of the series. Absolutely. I do remember, 0:18:02.119 --> 0:18:03.879 by the way, when you were talking about being trapped 0:18:03.880 --> 0:18:07.399 at work and now I remember something Greg and I discussed, 0:18:07.760 --> 0:18:10.919 and that was where those interviews would be shot. So 0:18:11.000 --> 0:18:15.000 they're generally two places, and one angle, of course is 0:18:15.400 --> 0:18:20.280 each actor sits with the glass facing the bullpen behind them, 0:18:20.359 --> 0:18:23.439 and the other places with your back to the wall 0:18:23.920 --> 0:18:27.639 the opposite wall. And I remember Greg very specifically saying 0:18:27.680 --> 0:18:30.720 he loved the idea that that frame would have a 0:18:30.760 --> 0:18:33.520 little sliver of the window in it, but just a 0:18:33.560 --> 0:18:37.040 little bit, because there's no reason to see that you 0:18:37.040 --> 0:18:40.600 could get out. And those are and and I remember 0:18:40.640 --> 0:18:43.800 that see all a lot of where John's John shots 0:18:43.800 --> 0:18:47.200 are well, I think and I had totally forgotten about this, 0:18:47.560 --> 0:18:52.959 that John's was toward the outside because he dreamt of 0:18:53.119 --> 0:18:57.639 getting out. Absolutely, that was absolutely part of that was 0:18:57.720 --> 0:19:00.760 the subtext of I mean, it wasn't his subtext, but 0:19:00.840 --> 0:19:04.960 that was Greg's idea that you know, I love that 0:19:04.960 --> 0:19:08.840 that there was enough, there was something that objectively told 0:19:08.880 --> 0:19:11.280 the story of his hopes and his dreams. You know, 0:19:11.480 --> 0:19:15.480 whereas Kevin, most of the characters was shot so you 0:19:15.520 --> 0:19:19.480 could only see the bullpen the office because that's where 0:19:19.520 --> 0:19:23.639 they were going to be forever. Yes, I remember that 0:19:23.640 --> 0:19:27.159 that's actually and yet that angle on John only featured 0:19:27.200 --> 0:19:31.840 a little bit of that window exactly. How was shooting 0:19:31.960 --> 0:19:34.880 outside of the bullpen? I mean, we have these physical 0:19:35.119 --> 0:19:39.359 barriers that exist within the office. How was moving outside 0:19:39.400 --> 0:19:42.439 as as we started to, you know, especially after the 0:19:42.480 --> 0:19:45.679 first two seasons and going more to locations. Did that 0:19:45.920 --> 0:19:49.320 create more issues to keep the style and the look 0:19:49.320 --> 0:19:53.359 of the show the same? Or let me I'll just 0:19:53.359 --> 0:19:56.160 speak about one episode, and that's Booze Cruise because obviously 0:19:56.160 --> 0:19:59.200 we sure we shot on a real boat. Where were 0:19:59.240 --> 0:20:02.920 we and Cavi Long Beach. And one of the things 0:20:02.960 --> 0:20:06.879 I loved is and I didn't choose the boat, Gregg 0:20:07.000 --> 0:20:10.439 chose the boat, But the boat for me was like 0:20:10.600 --> 0:20:13.399 very claustrophobic. I felt like we were it was like 0:20:13.480 --> 0:20:17.359 just dunder Mifflin floating in the water. I mean, I 0:20:17.359 --> 0:20:20.880 felt like everything about that space was very tight constricted. 0:20:20.960 --> 0:20:23.480 It was hard to shoot in it. Kind of again, 0:20:24.200 --> 0:20:27.520 it sort of recreated the conditions of the workplace on 0:20:27.600 --> 0:20:30.960 the water. So in a funny way, I like the 0:20:31.000 --> 0:20:33.760 fact that, you know, sometimes we'd go on location and 0:20:33.800 --> 0:20:36.560 we'd basically be in the same kind of place. Yes, 0:20:36.920 --> 0:20:39.960 we're on vacation for a fun night out, and we're 0:20:40.119 --> 0:20:45.119 just actually in the office again, um well, booze cruise. 0:20:45.520 --> 0:20:50.760 The seven seconds of silence that happened between Jim and Pam. 0:20:50.960 --> 0:20:55.280 Was that an organic moment that happened. Did you have 0:20:55.359 --> 0:20:59.119 to fight for that time of silence or I don't know, 0:20:59.200 --> 0:21:01.240 Just talk me through that a little bit, like the 0:21:01.280 --> 0:21:04.200 shooting of it and or the decision to allow it 0:21:04.280 --> 0:21:07.160 to stay in. I mean, the length of the silence 0:21:07.320 --> 0:21:12.280 was not something we planned obviously to the second, but 0:21:12.400 --> 0:21:15.000 I think you know, John and Jenna both knew that, 0:21:15.080 --> 0:21:19.920 you know, there were no rules about pace, and so 0:21:20.080 --> 0:21:23.879 it was not objectionable to, you know, let the moment linger. 0:21:24.480 --> 0:21:27.160 I don't remember when we shot it feeling like, oh 0:21:27.160 --> 0:21:29.560 my god, this is it. We've broken the record for 0:21:29.680 --> 0:21:35.159 longest moment around, of course, but I do remember mostly 0:21:35.240 --> 0:21:38.240 that it was that it felt very truthful. It could 0:21:38.280 --> 0:21:41.840 have been half that length, It didn't really matter. It was, 0:21:42.000 --> 0:21:45.840 you know, it just felt very truthful, and I turned 0:21:45.880 --> 0:21:48.520 in my cut and it probably worked with Greg on 0:21:48.600 --> 0:21:51.800 the cut, but it was Greg who ultimately, you know, 0:21:51.880 --> 0:21:56.240 fought to keep it in at that length. I only 0:21:56.280 --> 0:21:58.920 hope that by that point in the in the series, 0:21:59.000 --> 0:22:01.160 it wasn't that big a fight because it was clear 0:22:01.240 --> 0:22:02.960 what we were doing, and what we were doing was 0:22:03.160 --> 0:22:07.119 compelling for me. It's that classic thing of you know, 0:22:08.160 --> 0:22:10.760 if you're involved, it doesn't you don't feel that the 0:22:10.880 --> 0:22:14.159 time passing, you know, you're just you're involved, you know. 0:22:14.280 --> 0:22:18.320 And and and for those two actors, again, they were 0:22:18.359 --> 0:22:21.280 just so invested in that moment. I don't think they 0:22:21.320 --> 0:22:23.439 had a clue that they were, you know, stretching the 0:22:23.480 --> 0:22:27.200 limits of what's acceptable on a broadcast our television. Right. 0:22:27.600 --> 0:22:52.080 Maybe they were, maybe they were so Greg approached you 0:22:52.119 --> 0:22:54.360 about coming back for the finale, or he asked you, 0:22:54.600 --> 0:22:57.199 or how did that come about? He asked me to 0:22:57.280 --> 0:23:01.159 come back for the finale. It had been two or 0:23:01.200 --> 0:23:03.879 three seasons since I worked on the show. But I 0:23:03.920 --> 0:23:07.720 think Greg wanted to create a sense of coming full 0:23:07.720 --> 0:23:12.840 circle and returning to the show's origins. And I also 0:23:13.000 --> 0:23:16.080 was a little daunted by the fact that and this 0:23:16.160 --> 0:23:19.399 is a good thing, that so many of the characters, 0:23:19.440 --> 0:23:21.919 so many of the characters who began the series, you know, 0:23:22.840 --> 0:23:26.680 in secondary roles. Everybody's role had grown and and and 0:23:27.280 --> 0:23:31.880 everybody had a complicated story to tell, and uh, how 0:23:31.920 --> 0:23:36.119 are we going to do that? Well? It took longer 0:23:36.160 --> 0:23:38.119 than a normal show that's for sure. It's like a 0:23:38.160 --> 0:23:42.879 feature length finality. How involved were you leading up to 0:23:42.920 --> 0:23:45.240 the table read? You know, the table read became a 0:23:45.359 --> 0:23:50.919 very big deal, as you recall, with a humongous audience 0:23:50.960 --> 0:23:54.760 in this giant auditorium on some location. I can't even 0:23:54.760 --> 0:23:59.000 remember where it was. But here's how I I wasn't. 0:23:59.400 --> 0:24:01.960 Here's what I up and with the table reading is 0:24:02.119 --> 0:24:04.679 you know, I I was used to reading the scene description, 0:24:04.920 --> 0:24:06.919 and so I just sort of casually said to Greg, 0:24:07.080 --> 0:24:09.159 would you like me to read the scene description? And 0:24:09.200 --> 0:24:13.760 he said absolutely not. I thought, WHOA, Okay, I don't 0:24:13.760 --> 0:24:16.520 need to read it. Little did I realize what he 0:24:16.600 --> 0:24:19.359 was planning. He was planning this sort of table reading 0:24:19.400 --> 0:24:24.120 extravag answer. Yes, yes, had you read it before? Oh yeah, 0:24:24.200 --> 0:24:27.960 I definitely because we none of us had, really no, 0:24:28.600 --> 0:24:30.840 I mean we had the scripts delivered. I mean, if 0:24:30.920 --> 0:24:34.119