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Speaker 1: I'm Ken Kappas. I am a director. I directed the

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Speaker 1: pilot of the Office and many other episodes. Hello listeners,

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Speaker 1: it is another day, and that means it's time for

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Speaker 1: another episode of the Office Deep Dive. As always, I

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Speaker 1: am your host, Brian Baumgartner. Today I am being joined

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Speaker 1: once again by our spectacular director Ken Kappas for round

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Speaker 1: two of our conversation, and this time we really dive

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Speaker 1: straight into his search for the truth, because that's what

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Speaker 1: it was right the lengths he took to make sure

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Speaker 1: that the show felt real, felt spontaneous, felt improvised, and

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Speaker 1: that we as a cast out like we really were

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Speaker 1: a part of the dunder Mifflin world. I am just

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Speaker 1: in awe of him. That being said, I do want

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Speaker 1: to get one thing straight, Ken, Well, he expressed some

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Speaker 1: doubts about my abilities in the basketball episode, Season one,

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Speaker 1: episode five. For those of you who don't know, he

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Speaker 1: said that I was so good and made so many

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Speaker 1: shots in a row that it had to have been

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Speaker 1: visual effects. Well, sir, first of all, I'm flattered because

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Speaker 1: that's hilarious, But I hate to break it to you.

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Speaker 1: I am just that good. But enough about me. I

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Speaker 1: could talk about me all day. But since we're talking

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Speaker 1: about skills, Ken truly has so many of them. We

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Speaker 1: owe so much of the office to his vision and

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Speaker 1: his talent, and we were so lucky to have him

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Speaker 1: on our team. Without further ado, get ready to be

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Speaker 1: swept away into the wonderful, magical world of Ken Kappas

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Speaker 1: Bubble and Squeak. I love it, Bubble and Squeak, Bubble

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Speaker 1: and Squeaker Cookie every month left over from the nat before. Um,

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Speaker 1: how do you feel I mean, because you fully committed

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Speaker 1: to the documentary concept, how do you feel like that

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Speaker 1: influenced the storytelling? Well? I think there. I mean, there's

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Speaker 1: a couple of things we did in the pilot and

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Speaker 1: and pretty much carried throughout the series. But one of

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Speaker 1: them was is that the ideas that the camera is

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Speaker 1: actually not always in the right place for the scene

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Speaker 1: because as a documentary filmmaker, I'm not sure what the

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Speaker 1: scene is. So that occasionally if we made a decision,

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Speaker 1: like if if Steve's character makes an entrance from his office,

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Speaker 1: that the camera might be over near the water cooler,

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Speaker 1: the last place you would really put the camera to

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Speaker 1: catch it good, And then Steve would say something which

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Speaker 1: would catch our attention, we'd have to whip pan over

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Speaker 1: to find him, and ideally, by the time we found him,

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Speaker 1: he's finished saying whatever he had to say, so that

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Speaker 1: we end up landing on him for a bit of

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Speaker 1: dead air. That to me, was one of the key

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Speaker 1: strategies in how we we shot. So the Pilot in

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Speaker 1: particular has these kind of wonderfully long, weird pauses, and

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Speaker 1: part of that is due to the you know, cinema

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Speaker 1: verite style of shooting. When Greg and I held the

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Speaker 1: production meeting for the pilot, and Greg and I had

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Speaker 1: discussed this in advance, but I sort of announced to

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Speaker 1: the people at the production meeting, which includes all the

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Speaker 1: you know, the heads of the different departments make a pair, camera, sound, etcetera,

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Speaker 1: that things that in any other show would get them

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Speaker 1: fired are encouraged in this show. So, for instance, if

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Speaker 1: you are a camera operator and you pan past the

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Speaker 1: subject and then have to like sort of backtrack rather

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Speaker 1: you know sloppily, that's acceptable and actually not acceptable, it's good.

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Speaker 1: So I think that all of those things. We've never

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Speaker 1: talked about it, but hopefully what it did for the

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Speaker 1: cast is make everyone feel like they were on all

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Speaker 1: the time, you know, that wasn't my shot, your shot.

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Speaker 1: It wasn't like, you know, nobody knew when they might

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Speaker 1: be the subject of the scene. Well, and the other

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Speaker 1: thing that you did. You know, traditionally you have marks

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Speaker 1: on the floor that tell the actors where to go,

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Speaker 1: and on the office there were no marks. There were

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Speaker 1: no marks, and they're also in theory. There was no

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Speaker 1: regard for whether you were actually facing the camera at

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Speaker 1: certain times. You know, in a traditional you know, multi

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Speaker 1: camera comedy, everyone is is entered in a very you know,

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Speaker 1: frontal view. But suddenly in our pilot, we were able

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Speaker 1: to do things like just kind of be you know,

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Speaker 1: long for long stretches on a profile, or not quite

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Speaker 1: see someone well. So, I mean, I do think we

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Speaker 1: Greg and I were very specific about scenes that were

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Speaker 1: more like you know, spy camera scenes. And I'm thinking

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Speaker 1: in the pilot, particularly of there's a wonderful scene towards

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Speaker 1: the end at the reception desk with Jim and Pam

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Speaker 1: and Roy. I think Pam actually leaves the reception desk

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Speaker 1: and there's just this long, long moment where like Roy

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Speaker 1: and Jim are just leaning and then Jim finally says

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Speaker 1: something really innocuous and royal like bolts out of there.

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Speaker 1: It's a very weird. And so that's a scene where

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Speaker 1: those two characters are not aware that they're being filmed,

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Speaker 1: and we sort of hid behind a buy not a bush,

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Speaker 1: but like a plant. And you know, I think that

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Speaker 1: that was a good example of, particularly for a character

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Speaker 1: like Jim who's hyper aware of the camera, that we

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Speaker 1: get to catch him without you know, him being aware

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Speaker 1: of it. And I think even at the beginning, as

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Speaker 1: I recall, like Steve would have a look directly at

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Speaker 1: the lens and then a look at me standing next

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Speaker 1: to the camera, and I'm gonna have to like rack

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Speaker 1: my brain now a little bit. I think the idea

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Speaker 1: is if he looked at the camera, he was sort

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Speaker 1: of it was something he was doing as if playing

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Speaker 1: to the camera. But if he looked at me, it

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Speaker 1: was because he wanted he was worried that the camera

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Speaker 1: caught something that he didn't want to be seen. And again,

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Speaker 1: I'm I'm not sure exactly, but I know what you mean. Yes, well,

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Speaker 1: I want to skip ahead because you just brought this

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Speaker 1: up and kind of talk about probably the most famous

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Speaker 1: spice shot scene in the series. I told Jenna that

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Speaker 1: nothing could shut down production like a big Jim and

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Speaker 1: Pam moment. Like I was like, if you were scheduled

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Speaker 1: to work that day and you were like, oh, Jim

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Speaker 1: and Pam are gonna kiss. Oh, please shoot me out

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Speaker 1: before because they're gonna talk for a long time. Um,

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Speaker 1: but talk to me a little bit about how that moment.

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Speaker 1: What was that. My recollection was there was a lot

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Speaker 1: of conversation about that and capturing that spy shot of

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Speaker 1: them finally coming in it and doing that kiss, Well,

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Speaker 1: there was a lot of conversation. I think that John

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Speaker 1: and Jenna had a lot of uh, what's the right word. Well,

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Speaker 1: they were anxious about the scene. You know. I spoke

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Speaker 1: with Jenna about this about a year ago, and I

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Speaker 1: went back and looked at the shooting schedule for that

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Speaker 1: episode Casino Night, because I misremembered something. I thought that

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Speaker 1: we shot the kiss like at the very end of

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Speaker 1: the schedule, but in fact we didn't. We shot at

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Speaker 1: and I think the second last day of the schedule.

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Speaker 1: The last day was the night work the you know,

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Speaker 1: the exterior scene between Pam and Jim where they basically

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Speaker 1: break up. It's the penultimate scene before he comes back

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Speaker 1: in and kisses her. So it was just interesting to

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Speaker 1: me that for the two actors, they were playing the

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Speaker 1: outcome before they played the scene. That interesting, and obviously

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Speaker 1: they played both scenes well. But in terms of the

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Speaker 1: camera placement, I definitely remember talking to Greg about, you know,

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Speaker 1: we wanted to a be hidden, and we wanted to

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Speaker 1: find the furthest place to be, and that was that,

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Speaker 1: you know, there's a little glass partition, you know, kind

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Speaker 1: of near where the water cooler is, and we just

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Speaker 1: hid back there. To me, the most interesting thing about

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Speaker 1: the moment is the fact that if you shoot a kiss,

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Speaker 1: traditionally you want to be able to see two faces.

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Speaker 1: And I've you know, directed a few kisses before, and

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Speaker 1: you and there's always like you usually maybe you'll put

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Speaker 1: people in a kind of fifty fifty orientation to the camera,

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Speaker 1: or you have separate shots. But this show, of course,

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Speaker 1: that's not what we do. And I think I don't

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Speaker 1: remember if it was Greg's suggestion or if it if

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Speaker 1: the actors came up with it or that, or maybe

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Speaker 1: they just happened. But we don't see Jenna's reaction to

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Speaker 1: the kiss. We see John and they kiss and they

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Speaker 1: break and I think they look at each other for

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Speaker 1: a beat, and that's the end of the scene. But

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Speaker 1: I think one of the things I've often thought about

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Speaker 1: with that shot is as an audience, you get the

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Speaker 1: pleasure of being Pam. You're being looked at by Jim.

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Speaker 1: You you don't see her reactions, so you get to

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Speaker 1: as an audience kind of right it yourself. And I

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Speaker 1: think that shot and it's you know, very it's very simple,

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Speaker 1: but I think that's to me, the thing that's most

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Speaker 1: noteworthy about it is is is that the the person

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Speaker 1: who's surprised by the kiss, you don't see their face.

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Speaker 1: That's very interesting. It occurs to me too. And this

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Speaker 1: is probably more greg I'll just side and note that.

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Speaker 1: But you know, the idea that because you guys were

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Speaker 1: so concerned about the reality and having it beat in

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Speaker 1: a real place, happening at a real time, there was

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Speaker 1: an insist that around the time the episode aired was

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Speaker 1: when this was happening. So if there weren't any episodes

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Speaker 1: airing over the summer, then the documentary crew was on

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Speaker 1: vacation and we didn't see that. And there was something

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Speaker 1: so compelling in the storytelling going from that kiss where

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Speaker 1: in Friends, right Ross and Rachel kiss, and then when

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Speaker 1: they come back, it's the moment immediately after they kiss,

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Speaker 1: whereas this when we come back again, Jim's gone, and

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Speaker 1: so it's about finding out everything gradually over time, what

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Speaker 1: happened and why he left and the fallout from the kiss.

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Speaker 1: I just, you know what, it's great. I've never and yes,

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Speaker 1: I mean, I think that's kudos to Greg and writing

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Speaker 1: staff because what's nice about that is information is not

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Speaker 1: served up to you. You have to kind of, you know,

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Speaker 1: discover what's going on, work for it, to have to

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Speaker 1: work for it, and I think it makes you a

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Speaker 1: more attentive viewer, and I think it's more gratifying as

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Speaker 1: an audience member. You're kind of throwing into the deep bend. Wait,

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Speaker 1: what's going on? Why is Jim? What? What desk is this?

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Speaker 1: Where is he? You know, Stanford what? You know? Like

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Speaker 1: it's like you get to kind of you get to

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Speaker 1: kind of uh, you know, do a little detective work

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Speaker 1: as you're watching the episode. You know, one thing about

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Speaker 1: that is it mimics what does happen in our lives.

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Speaker 1: We work with people and then they go away, you know,

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Speaker 1: they leave, they get another job, they get married. So

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Speaker 1: I feel like I mean, I think I've never talked

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Speaker 1: to Greg about it, but I think he was constantly

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Speaker 1: trying to make sure that you know, there was, you know,

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Speaker 1: a sense of the unexpected. How do you feel like

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Speaker 1: the directing the show changed as the show continued. Well,

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Speaker 1: I mean I didn't work on every season, and I

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Speaker 1: took a long break and and I will say that

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Speaker 1: whatever season I was working in, I guess I felt

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Speaker 1: like I just naturally circled back to those impulses that

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Speaker 1: we had during the pilot. Not because I was trying

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Speaker 1: to like, you know, make a point like let's remember

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Speaker 1: what we did. It was more like that's all I

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Speaker 1: knew what to do, so that even though occasionally I

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Speaker 1: would watch an episode and you know, maybe it was

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Speaker 1: covered in a slightly more conventional way than I might have.

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Speaker 1: I think my instinct when I, you know, when I

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Speaker 1: did direct, was to try and um, just kind of

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Speaker 1: respect them the original impulses and and again respect you know,

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Speaker 1: Greg's original ideas to making things a little dirtier a

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Speaker 1: little bit. Yeah. And by the way, it's it's easy

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Speaker 1: to forget those things you go away, you work on

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Speaker 1: a different show or a different film that has a

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Speaker 1: whole other style and then you have come back and

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Speaker 1: unlearned some things. But I feel like, yeah, I mean,

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Speaker 1: I definitely remember. I mean along the way like shooting

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Speaker 1: the hundredth episode Company Picnic, and there was a lot

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Speaker 1: of it was actually a complicated episode for a lot

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Speaker 1: of reasons, including I would just say to all writers,

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Speaker 1: the writer producers don't write complicated dialogue scenes while people

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Speaker 1: are playing volleyball. If there's one thing I learned doing

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Speaker 1: this show that no volleyball while talking. But I remember

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Speaker 1: just feeling like I had to kind of again unlearned

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Speaker 1: things I was doing on different films and shows and

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Speaker 1: kind of go back to kind of the show's roots.

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Speaker 1: So I hope that that was a good thing for

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Speaker 1: everyone to you know that, But you know, but that's

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Speaker 1: that was just my natural instinct was to kind of

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Speaker 1: circle back to the beginning. Absolutely. Did you ever have

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Speaker 1: conversations with other directors who are about to work on

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Speaker 1: who maybe hadn't been on the show yet. Do you

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Speaker 1: remember talking to anybody or get offering any advice on

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Speaker 1: that or well, Greg and I did when he you know,

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Speaker 1: reag and I definitely did. The first episode Greg directed

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Speaker 1: is one of the very best ones. You know. Basketball, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's fantastic. But by the way, Brian, Okay, So I

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Speaker 1: when I first saw the cut of Basketball, I assumed

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Speaker 1: that was a visual effect. No, that wasn't you're doing

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Speaker 1: because how there's like six in a row. I think

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Speaker 1: there's thirteen on the TV there is. There were no

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Speaker 1: ten in a row. And literally when I saw it,

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Speaker 1: I go how how? I literally my mind went to

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Speaker 1: how did they get the money for that effect? They

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Speaker 1: hired me? Really chiefly? Um, yeah, no, that was met. Um.

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Speaker 1: You know before when you were talking also about about

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Speaker 1: having to re remember things, you know, Kevin started to

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Speaker 1: look into the lens quite a bit as the series

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Speaker 1: extended out, um, when he had secrets, when he was

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Speaker 1: being childish about something. And I remember right when the

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Speaker 1: show ended and starting to work on other shows and going,

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Speaker 1: oh god, I can't look in the lens. What am

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Speaker 1: I doing looking at the lens? You're not allowed to

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Speaker 1: do that any any other show. Come on, get it together? Um,

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Speaker 1: so yes, I know what you mean. I definitely remember

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Speaker 1: a feeling, Um, what's the right way to put it? Like,

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Speaker 1: you know, like the Prodigal Son or something that I've

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Speaker 1: been away and come back and would I be accepted.

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Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, it was truly. I always remember. I

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Speaker 1: always remember how happy everyone was when you came back.

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Speaker 1: I'm glad the but you know, I I it's funny.

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Speaker 1: I was thinking about something I did in the in

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Speaker 1: the early episodes. I don't know if other directors did it.

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Speaker 1: I think it ended, but that was the idea that

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Speaker 1: during our you know, talking head interviews, that I used

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Speaker 1: to sit next to the camera. Yes, and I think

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Speaker 1: that that was not something that other directors did as much,

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Speaker 1: or maybe not at all. I never talked to anyone

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Speaker 1: about it, but I remember like coming back after a

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Speaker 1: few seasons, and definitely at the towards at the end

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Speaker 1: to that, Like you know, Jenna thought it was strange

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Speaker 1: suddenly that I was there sitting at the camera again

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Speaker 1: because it had been a while since that had done well.

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Speaker 1: It's it's funny. I was always I was of two

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Speaker 1: minds because you're such an open person and you and

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Speaker 1: I believe that the energy that you you give out,

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Speaker 1: you're creating an environment and you're wanting as the interviewer

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Speaker 1: to just be present for the actor who's talking. So

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Speaker 1: for me, if there was someone there who was you know,

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Speaker 1: I'm picking up you know, very concerned, learned about the words,

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Speaker 1: were thinking about something else and looking down that wasn't

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Speaker 1: helpful to have that. It was way easier for me

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Speaker 1: to look at a mark than to look at somebody

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Speaker 1: who was doing something that wasn't helpful to me. I know.

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Speaker 1: There were also occasions, especially with some of our writer directors,

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Speaker 1: um that could not stop laughing, So it was way

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Speaker 1: better get them in the corner or in the other room,

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Speaker 1: um to be right there. I do remember the beginning

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Speaker 1: of the series that one of the things, and I'm

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Speaker 1: not a writer, well I don't fancy myself a writer,

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Speaker 1: but I remember hoping that we could actually have a

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Speaker 1: conversation that would lead into the scripted talking headline. And

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Speaker 1: that was something you know, we did on occasion. And

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Speaker 1: again I make no claim of being able to improv,

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Speaker 1: but it was like, what could I set up that

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Speaker 1: would kind of lead to the line? Yes, and that

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Speaker 1: that you know, but I do think after a while

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Speaker 1: that wasn't necessary, but it was a fun thing to

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Speaker 1: do at the top of the series. Absolutely. I do remember,

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Speaker 1: by the way, when you were talking about being trapped

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Speaker 1: at work and now I remember something Greg and I discussed,

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Speaker 1: and that was where those interviews would be shot. So

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Speaker 1: they're generally two places, and one angle, of course is

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Speaker 1: each actor sits with the glass facing the bullpen behind them,

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Speaker 1: and the other places with your back to the wall

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Speaker 1: the opposite wall. And I remember Greg very specifically saying

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Speaker 1: he loved the idea that that frame would have a

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Speaker 1: little sliver of the window in it, but just a

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Speaker 1: little bit, because there's no reason to see that you

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Speaker 1: could get out. And those are and and I remember

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Speaker 1: that see all a lot of where John's John shots

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Speaker 1: are well, I think and I had totally forgotten about this,

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Speaker 1: that John's was toward the outside because he dreamt of

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Speaker 1: getting out. Absolutely, that was absolutely part of that was

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Speaker 1: the subtext of I mean, it wasn't his subtext, but

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Speaker 1: that was Greg's idea that you know, I love that

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Speaker 1: that there was enough, there was something that objectively told

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Speaker 1: the story of his hopes and his dreams. You know,

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Speaker 1: whereas Kevin, most of the characters was shot so you

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Speaker 1: could only see the bullpen the office because that's where

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Speaker 1: they were going to be forever. Yes, I remember that

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Speaker 1: that's actually and yet that angle on John only featured

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Speaker 1: a little bit of that window exactly. How was shooting

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Speaker 1: outside of the bullpen? I mean, we have these physical

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Speaker 1: barriers that exist within the office. How was moving outside

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Speaker 1: as as we started to, you know, especially after the

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Speaker 1: first two seasons and going more to locations. Did that

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Speaker 1: create more issues to keep the style and the look

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Speaker 1: of the show the same? Or let me I'll just

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Speaker 1: speak about one episode, and that's Booze Cruise because obviously

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Speaker 1: we sure we shot on a real boat. Where were

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Speaker 1: we and Cavi Long Beach. And one of the things

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Speaker 1: I loved is and I didn't choose the boat, Gregg

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Speaker 1: chose the boat, But the boat for me was like

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Speaker 1: very claustrophobic. I felt like we were it was like

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Speaker 1: just dunder Mifflin floating in the water. I mean, I

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00:20:17,359 --> 00:20:20,880
Speaker 1: felt like everything about that space was very tight constricted.

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Speaker 1: It was hard to shoot in it. Kind of again,

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Speaker 1: it sort of recreated the conditions of the workplace on

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Speaker 1: the water. So in a funny way, I like the

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Speaker 1: fact that, you know, sometimes we'd go on location and

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Speaker 1: we'd basically be in the same kind of place. Yes,

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00:20:36,920 --> 00:20:39,960
Speaker 1: we're on vacation for a fun night out, and we're

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Speaker 1: just actually in the office again, um well, booze cruise.

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Speaker 1: The seven seconds of silence that happened between Jim and Pam.

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Speaker 1: Was that an organic moment that happened. Did you have

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Speaker 1: to fight for that time of silence or I don't know,

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Speaker 1: Just talk me through that a little bit, like the

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Speaker 1: shooting of it and or the decision to allow it

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Speaker 1: to stay in. I mean, the length of the silence

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Speaker 1: was not something we planned obviously to the second, but

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Speaker 1: I think you know, John and Jenna both knew that,

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Speaker 1: you know, there were no rules about pace, and so

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Speaker 1: it was not objectionable to, you know, let the moment linger.

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Speaker 1: I don't remember when we shot it feeling like, oh

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Speaker 1: my god, this is it. We've broken the record for

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Speaker 1: longest moment around, of course, but I do remember mostly

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Speaker 1: that it was that it felt very truthful. It could

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Speaker 1: have been half that length, It didn't really matter. It was,

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Speaker 1: you know, it just felt very truthful, and I turned

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Speaker 1: in my cut and it probably worked with Greg on

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Speaker 1: the cut, but it was Greg who ultimately, you know,

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Speaker 1: fought to keep it in at that length. I only

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Speaker 1: hope that by that point in the in the series,

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Speaker 1: it wasn't that big a fight because it was clear

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Speaker 1: what we were doing, and what we were doing was

365
00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:07,119
Speaker 1: compelling for me. It's that classic thing of you know,

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Speaker 1: if you're involved, it doesn't you don't feel that the

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00:22:10,880 --> 00:22:14,159
Speaker 1: time passing, you know, you're just you're involved, you know.

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Speaker 1: And and and for those two actors, again, they were

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Speaker 1: just so invested in that moment. I don't think they

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Speaker 1: had a clue that they were, you know, stretching the

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Speaker 1: limits of what's acceptable on a broadcast our television. Right.

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Speaker 1: Maybe they were, maybe they were so Greg approached you

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Speaker 1: about coming back for the finale, or he asked you,

374
00:22:54,600 --> 00:22:57,199
Speaker 1: or how did that come about? He asked me to

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Speaker 1: come back for the finale. It had been two or

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Speaker 1: three seasons since I worked on the show. But I

377
00:23:03,920 --> 00:23:07,720
Speaker 1: think Greg wanted to create a sense of coming full

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Speaker 1: circle and returning to the show's origins. And I also

379
00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:16,080
Speaker 1: was a little daunted by the fact that and this

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00:23:16,160 --> 00:23:19,399
Speaker 1: is a good thing, that so many of the characters,

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Speaker 1: so many of the characters who began the series, you know,

382
00:23:22,840 --> 00:23:26,680
Speaker 1: in secondary roles. Everybody's role had grown and and and

383
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Speaker 1: everybody had a complicated story to tell, and uh, how

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Speaker 1: are we going to do that? Well? It took longer

385
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Speaker 1: than a normal show that's for sure. It's like a

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Speaker 1: feature length finality. How involved were you leading up to

387
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Speaker 1: the table read? You know, the table read became a

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00:23:45,359 --> 00:23:50,919
Speaker 1: very big deal, as you recall, with a humongous audience

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Speaker 1: in this giant auditorium on some location. I can't even

390
00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:59,000
Speaker 1: remember where it was. But here's how I I wasn't.

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Speaker 1: Here's what I up and with the table reading is

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Speaker 1: you know, I I was used to reading the scene description,

393
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Speaker 1: and so I just sort of casually said to Greg,

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00:24:07,080 --> 00:24:09,159
Speaker 1: would you like me to read the scene description? And

395
00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:13,760
Speaker 1: he said absolutely not. I thought, WHOA, Okay, I don't

396
00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:16,520
Speaker 1: need to read it. Little did I realize what he

397
00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:19,359
Speaker 1: was planning. He was planning this sort of table reading

398
00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:24,120
Speaker 1: extravag answer. Yes, yes, had you read it before? Oh yeah,

399
00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:27,960
Speaker 1: I definitely because we none of us had, really no,

400
00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:30,840
Speaker 1: I mean we had the scripts delivered. I mean, if

401
00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:34,119
Speaker 1: some people did, it was because they had a soft morning,

402
00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:37,440
Speaker 1: you know. By by later in the seasons, we were not.

403
00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:40,040
Speaker 1: And it wasn't a product of them keeping it a secret.

404
00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:43,600
Speaker 1: They just they were working and we were shooting, and

405
00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:45,639
Speaker 1: then suddenly it would be table read day and there

406
00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:49,080
Speaker 1: would be an episode in the in this trailer, well,

407
00:24:49,119 --> 00:24:52,639
Speaker 1: I would definitely. I read the finale, and I was

408
00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:57,680
Speaker 1: also part of the discussions about Steve's cameo appearance, right,

409
00:24:57,760 --> 00:24:59,240
Speaker 1: I guess I don't know if you could call it

410
00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:04,200
Speaker 1: a cameo appear. It's his return and how we were

411
00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:07,879
Speaker 1: planning to keep it a secret. It's still remarkable to

412
00:25:07,880 --> 00:25:10,760
Speaker 1: me that it was kept a secret, considering the fact

413
00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:13,040
Speaker 1: that he, you know, his appearance in the finale is

414
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Speaker 1: at a wedding where they were like, you know a

415
00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:19,640
Speaker 1: lot of people, yes, So I don't it doesn't make

416
00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:21,560
Speaker 1: any sense to me that it was kept secret, but

417
00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:27,080
Speaker 1: it was. I will say that I was pestered by

418
00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:32,760
Speaker 1: different news people and uh, I honed my you know,

419
00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:38,760
Speaker 1: fibbing skills quite well. Well, I somehow knew the day before,

420
00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:40,879
Speaker 1: or a couple of days before, I knew that it

421
00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:43,480
Speaker 1: was coming. Why did you feel that was important for

422
00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:50,720
Speaker 1: him to come back, or did you Well, I mean,

423
00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:53,960
Speaker 1: aside from the just you know, the kind of excitement

424
00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:57,040
Speaker 1: getting the whole gang back together again, I mean, I

425
00:25:57,040 --> 00:25:59,320
Speaker 1: feel like it it's sort of speaks a lot to

426
00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:01,600
Speaker 1: Michael's care act that he would show up for the wedding.

427
00:26:01,840 --> 00:26:05,640
Speaker 1: Just emotionally, it felt like where Michael was. I mean

428
00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:08,240
Speaker 1: that Michael's evolution over the course of the series, it

429
00:26:08,359 --> 00:26:11,440
Speaker 1: made perfect sense that he wasn't going to miss that absolutely.

430
00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:18,080
Speaker 1: Why do you think that The Office has not just maintained,

431
00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:21,840
Speaker 1: but why is the show more popular now than it

432
00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:24,679
Speaker 1: was even when it aired. What is it about the

433
00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:28,320
Speaker 1: show that you think you know that so many people

434
00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:33,080
Speaker 1: respond to? Yeah, I wonder if all there were Let

435
00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:38,080
Speaker 1: me think about that. I have ag that's a good question. Oh,

436
00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:43,040
Speaker 1: I have an answer. I feel like the continuing popularity

437
00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:44,399
Speaker 1: of the show has a lot to do with the

438
00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:49,360
Speaker 1: fact that most of us do work in really dreary

439
00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:54,160
Speaker 1: jobs and feel trapped in the workplace, and I feel like,

440
00:26:54,560 --> 00:26:57,320
Speaker 1: in a funny way, the show really honors that experience.

441
00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:02,480
Speaker 1: And UH speak very personally. My you know, I have

442
00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:04,920
Speaker 1: a brother who is younger than me, who works at

443
00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:07,840
Speaker 1: a store in our hometown, and when you go in,

444
00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:11,520
Speaker 1: you know, behind the counter of the store are all

445
00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:15,640
Speaker 1: the Office bobble heads, all of them. And I think,

446
00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:18,840
Speaker 1: in a weird way, it's less about the fact that

447
00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:20,680
Speaker 1: I worked on the show and more about the fact

448
00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:24,920
Speaker 1: that working people connect with these characters. Let me ask

449
00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:28,720
Speaker 1: you this, do you think The Office contributed to or

450
00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:33,120
Speaker 1: the culture sort of at the time, and reality television

451
00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:38,280
Speaker 1: started to become larger, and here we were doing a

452
00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:44,480
Speaker 1: scripted television show to have it attempt to be done really,

453
00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:47,879
Speaker 1: I mean, Randall Einhorn and Matt Stone where reality TV

454
00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:51,600
Speaker 1: camera people. I don't know. I just there's something interesting

455
00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:56,480
Speaker 1: there to me about that. Reality TV started happening, you know,

456
00:27:56,720 --> 00:28:00,320
Speaker 1: unmasked at that time, and here we were a rifted

457
00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:04,359
Speaker 1: comedy show attempting to do the same thing. I don't know.

458
00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:07,320
Speaker 1: I will say that a lot of people you know

459
00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:09,199
Speaker 1: that I talked to about the show assumed that it

460
00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:13,399
Speaker 1: was improvised, and are they're surprised when I say it

461
00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:18,520
Speaker 1: was actually very carefully scripted. Obviously scripted to sound, you know,

462
00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:21,960
Speaker 1: off the cuff at times, but it wasn't a show

463
00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:26,440
Speaker 1: like imagine Curb your Enthusiasm. Is that I've never worked

464
00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:29,840
Speaker 1: on it, but I imagine it's mostly improvised or Christopher

465
00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:33,680
Speaker 1: guests films, which were remarkable, But the office was the opposite.

466
00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:36,760
Speaker 1: It was very and I hate the word formatted, so

467
00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:39,760
Speaker 1: I won't use it, but it was a very well crafted.

468
00:28:40,480 --> 00:28:43,760
Speaker 1: Each week was a well crafted script. So I feel

469
00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:46,320
Speaker 1: like in a way. It probably fooled people, and it

470
00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:48,520
Speaker 1: may have created a you know, it may have said

471
00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:52,520
Speaker 1: an example that other people followed in the wrong ways. Farthing,

472
00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:56,160
Speaker 1: because it was actually very much about you know, there's

473
00:28:56,200 --> 00:29:00,160
Speaker 1: so much good writing craft going on, and I think

474
00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:02,720
Speaker 1: the fact that people were fooled into thinking it was

475
00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:05,800
Speaker 1: spontaneous or improvised as a tribute to how well written

476
00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:10,560
Speaker 1: it was written and directed. Yes, absolutely, Um, what are

477
00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:14,640
Speaker 1: you most proud of about your contribution to the show

478
00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:20,840
Speaker 1: or the show itself? I'm very proud of the fact

479
00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:24,720
Speaker 1: that there were a lot of naysayers at the beginning.

480
00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:29,760
Speaker 1: There are a lot of people who said this will fail,

481
00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:36,880
Speaker 1: and that it didn't fail. Actually it it succeeded, But

482
00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:40,320
Speaker 1: it succeeded on its own terms. And that's what I'm

483
00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:45,440
Speaker 1: proud of. That's so great. Put on your headphones for

484
00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:49,000
Speaker 1: one second. Hey, will you play that clip? I thought

485
00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:53,560
Speaker 1: it was weird when you picked us to make a documentary,

486
00:29:54,160 --> 00:29:59,080
Speaker 1: but all in all, I think an ordinary paper company

487
00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:02,800
Speaker 1: like Dundermith Flynn was a great subject for a documentary.

488
00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:08,760
Speaker 1: There's a lot of beauty and ordinary things. Isn't that

489
00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:17,760
Speaker 1: kind of the point? Oh? Yeah, that is the point.

490
00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:20,520
Speaker 1: That's why it's continued to be popular. Okay, so well,

491
00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:22,760
Speaker 1: I mean that. I mean, to me, what that says

492
00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:26,440
Speaker 1: is that's what Greg thought. The point was, what do

493
00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:30,560
Speaker 1: you think you think beauty and the ordinary? Yeah, I

494
00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:33,600
Speaker 1: mean I also feel like they they you know, just

495
00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:36,600
Speaker 1: as a director, it was such a pleasure and a

496
00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:38,960
Speaker 1: privilege to kind of do something that didn't go down

497
00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:43,560
Speaker 1: the middle of the road, and I think audiences respect that,

498
00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:48,080
Speaker 1: and I love that about the show. I actually do

499
00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:52,960
Speaker 1: remember a different ending to the finale as I recall.

500
00:30:53,040 --> 00:30:56,440
Speaker 1: The original ending was, you know, the night before, or

501
00:30:56,520 --> 00:30:59,920
Speaker 1: rather the night of the story, the story that all

502
00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:04,040
Speaker 1: the characters decide they need to take the plant planty

503
00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:08,080
Speaker 1: plant that's in the bullpen, that's been in the bullpen

504
00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:13,960
Speaker 1: for nine seasons, like sad looking plant and everybody, somebody,

505
00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:16,880
Speaker 1: maybe I don't know, is a Kevin. Somebody makes a

506
00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:21,240
Speaker 1: suggestion that Planting needs to be liberated, Planting needs to escape,

507
00:31:21,560 --> 00:31:26,120
Speaker 1: and so everyone marches out of the office with a

508
00:31:26,320 --> 00:31:29,400
Speaker 1: two or three of the characters carrying Planty and everyone's

509
00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:35,000
Speaker 1: chanting Planty, Planty. The entire ensemble then goes outside of

510
00:31:35,040 --> 00:31:38,160
Speaker 1: the building in the parking lot in front of the

511
00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:43,760
Speaker 1: under Mifflin's building and they plant planty And the original ending,

512
00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:46,680
Speaker 1: as Greg and I discussed, was that, you know, everyone

513
00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:51,080
Speaker 1: kind of wanders away. Everyone's been drinking, and everyone's you know,

514
00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:54,520
Speaker 1: feeling a little sad, but in festive, and we hold

515
00:31:54,560 --> 00:31:59,200
Speaker 1: on this empty parking lot with the plant newly planted,

516
00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:02,320
Speaker 1: the one that was under Mifflin is now outside. And

517
00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:05,120
Speaker 1: as I recall, Greg's original plan was that there'd be

518
00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:07,680
Speaker 1: a dissolved through to the next morning, and you just

519
00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:10,320
Speaker 1: see the empty parking lot at dawn with this plant

520
00:32:10,760 --> 00:32:17,160
Speaker 1: in its new home. Fascinating. I totally forgot that. Yeah,

521
00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:23,200
Speaker 1: that's great, and um, I'm not surprised that Greg decided

522
00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:27,280
Speaker 1: to end with Pam's drawing. I mean, it's fantastic, it's wonderful,

523
00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:32,000
Speaker 1: and and yes, Pam's final speech about finding the beauty

524
00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:35,640
Speaker 1: in the ordinary is certainly it could not be a

525
00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:40,959
Speaker 1: better summation statement. But going back to the offbeatness of

526
00:32:41,080 --> 00:32:44,520
Speaker 1: the show, I must say I loved the idea of

527
00:32:44,560 --> 00:32:47,480
Speaker 1: a show that ended with a shot of an empty

528
00:32:47,520 --> 00:32:53,880
Speaker 1: parking lot and a plant plant. It's amazing. That's amazing. Well,

529
00:32:53,920 --> 00:32:57,680
Speaker 1: we you know, I talked to Jenna some about it,

530
00:32:57,840 --> 00:33:00,280
Speaker 1: and you know I was saying to her, or like

531
00:33:00,320 --> 00:33:03,520
Speaker 1: if the Office was a was a being a person,

532
00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:09,000
Speaker 1: or that Pam was clearly the heart of the show. Obviously,

533
00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:12,640
Speaker 1: she's you know, has the love interest with Jim. Dwight

534
00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:16,400
Speaker 1: describes her as his best friend um in the end,

535
00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:20,800
Speaker 1: and you know she's the one that has the last

536
00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:26,600
Speaker 1: moment with Michael when he's leaving, and it's interesting that

537
00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:29,160
Speaker 1: it it goes back to her. I do think she

538
00:33:29,280 --> 00:33:33,360
Speaker 1: was the emotional heart of the show. Well, you know,

539
00:33:33,560 --> 00:33:35,680
Speaker 1: I mean, I guess the only thing I would add

540
00:33:35,720 --> 00:33:41,680
Speaker 1: to that is the show is a comedy, but within

541
00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:45,640
Speaker 1: it is a romantic story. And the romantic story is

542
00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:48,959
Speaker 1: not played for laughs. The romantic story is grounded and

543
00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:52,240
Speaker 1: real and in a very you know, old fashioned sense.

544
00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:56,160
Speaker 1: This is a show with clowns and lovers, yes, and

545
00:33:56,600 --> 00:33:59,520
Speaker 1: a different show is different, you know, a wonderful show

546
00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:03,960
Speaker 1: like Friend. The romantic storylines are funny, yes, But in

547
00:34:04,040 --> 00:34:08,400
Speaker 1: the Office, Pam and Jim, we don't love them because

548
00:34:08,440 --> 00:34:11,200
Speaker 1: of the laughs. We love them because of how you know,

549
00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:15,080
Speaker 1: rounded and real that relationship is well and we couldn't

550
00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:19,880
Speaker 1: because both Jenna and John aren't funny, so we wouldn't

551
00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:22,600
Speaker 1: be able we wouldn't be able to. Thank God, I

552
00:34:22,680 --> 00:34:26,960
Speaker 1: wasn't written that. I didn't say that because, um, I

553
00:34:27,080 --> 00:34:30,799
Speaker 1: just so appreciate you being Oh. I mean, I am

554
00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:33,840
Speaker 1: so honored that you gave us any time. And I

555
00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:36,960
Speaker 1: just want you to know, just watching things through again

556
00:34:37,120 --> 00:34:40,440
Speaker 1: and just you as a person, I love you, and

557
00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:42,520
Speaker 1: I just I want you to know how much I

558
00:34:42,560 --> 00:34:46,880
Speaker 1: respect you and give you full credit for the world

559
00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:50,000
Speaker 1: that was created on the office with Greg. I love

560
00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:52,560
Speaker 1: you too, and I miss you, my girls. It's been

561
00:34:52,640 --> 00:34:54,680
Speaker 1: so I'm just so excited that you're doing this too.

562
00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:58,400
Speaker 1: And it was also it's so comfortable to talk to

563
00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:00,960
Speaker 1: you about this good I felt like, like, let's just

564
00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:05,759
Speaker 1: talk about let's just talk about exactly. Um, thanks so much.

565
00:35:06,120 --> 00:35:22,160
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, well you heard it here, folks. Instead

566
00:35:22,200 --> 00:35:26,120
Speaker 1: of talking about the beauty of ordinary things, I could

567
00:35:26,160 --> 00:35:30,480
Speaker 1: have been talking about the beauty of planting this whole time.

568
00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:35,800
Speaker 1: And you know what, maybe that's not such a bad idea. Ken,

569
00:35:36,400 --> 00:35:38,160
Speaker 1: thank you so much for taking the time to come

570
00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:41,960
Speaker 1: talk to me. I so appreciate it. And to all

571
00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:45,960
Speaker 1: of my listeners you know this, I appreciate you as well.

572
00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:49,840
Speaker 1: Make sure to tune in next week or another behind

573
00:35:49,840 --> 00:35:52,720
Speaker 1: the scenes look at the show in a brand new

574
00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:58,560
Speaker 1: interview with editor Extraordinarior Dave Rogers. Oh, and don't forget

575
00:35:59,360 --> 00:36:04,080
Speaker 1: you can order our very new and very exciting book,

576
00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:08,480
Speaker 1: Welcome to dunder Mifflin, The Ultimate Oral History of the Office,

577
00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:12,360
Speaker 1: on Amazon right now. Trust me, you are not going

578
00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:14,359
Speaker 1: to want to miss it. But in the meantime, I

579
00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:17,560
Speaker 1: just need you to do one thing, have a fan

580
00:36:17,920 --> 00:36:29,120
Speaker 1: freaky tastic week. The Office. Deep Dive is hosted and

581
00:36:29,200 --> 00:36:33,520
Speaker 1: executive produced by me Brian baum Gartner, alongside our executive

582
00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:37,759
Speaker 1: producer Lang Lee. Our senior producer is Tessa Kramer. Our

583
00:36:37,760 --> 00:36:41,440
Speaker 1: producers for this episode are Liz Hayes and Diego Tapia.

584
00:36:41,840 --> 00:36:44,880
Speaker 1: My main man in the booth is Alec Moore. Our

585
00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:48,480
Speaker 1: theme song Bubble and Squeak, performed by my great friend

586
00:36:48,560 --> 00:36:52,359
Speaker 1: Creed Bratton, and the episode was mixed by seth Olandskip