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Speaker 1: My old black dollars.

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Speaker 2: Dona overlanding Rendro.

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Speaker 1: I don't know, Ninth Planet Audio dot com.

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Speaker 3: We're over landing here.

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Speaker 4: Hello everyone. First of all, thank you so much for

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Speaker 4: coming on this journey with me. It has been honestly,

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Speaker 4: really incredible seeing the reactions to each episode and feeling

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Speaker 4: all the support for changing the Boone County High School mascot.

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Speaker 4: So next week we will be sharing episode ten that

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Speaker 4: features my final plea to the school based decision making

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Speaker 4: council about changing the mascot. Ironically, it landed on June

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Speaker 4: teenth of this year, so we were able to join

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Speaker 4: in on Florence's juneteen celebration and catch up with our

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Speaker 4: local supporters. I've also been able to have a few

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Speaker 4: more encouraging conversations, which I'm excited for you all to

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Speaker 4: hear next week. It's very star studded, very fun. As

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Speaker 4: we finish up that episode, and given that everyone's minds

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Speaker 4: are probably preoccupied with the election, I wanted to take

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Speaker 4: a moment today to give you more of an insight

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Speaker 4: on the process of making this podcast over the last year.

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Speaker 4: I'm going to take you back now to about two

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Speaker 4: weeks before the podcast was set to air, I sat

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Speaker 4: down with my producers Dan Sinker and Elizabeth Baquett for

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Speaker 4: more of a casual conversation about everything we experience while

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Speaker 4: making the podcast and what I hope the impact will

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Speaker 4: be beyond changing my high school's mascot. And we will

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Speaker 4: be back next week with episode ten, featuring the conclusion.

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Speaker 4: For now, at least of this journey. I was a

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Speaker 4: leady rebbel, like, what does that even need? The Boone

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Speaker 4: County Rebels will stay, the Boode County Rebels with the

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Speaker 4: image of right here in black and white and.

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Speaker 5: Friends figures is a flag or mask on.

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Speaker 1: Anytime you're trying to mess with tradition, you get to

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Speaker 1: be ready for a serious.

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Speaker 4: Backgrounds from Ninth Planet Audio. I'm Akila Hughes and this

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Speaker 4: is Rebel Spirit looking back.

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Speaker 2: We've got Dan in from Chicago.

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Speaker 4: Yes, we're all in person. I know it's wind in person,

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Speaker 4: not in Kentucky.

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Speaker 1: I know.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it's different. The energy is definitely different. It seems

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Speaker 4: a little bit more supportive. Yeah. So we're just fourteen

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Speaker 4: days out from Rebel Spirit launching and I'm super excited

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Speaker 4: about it. This has been like a year or more

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Speaker 4: in the making. At this point, and so it feels

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Speaker 4: like in some ways like I've been dying for it

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Speaker 4: to come out. And then it's also like the kids

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Speaker 4: are back in school. There's gonna be a lot of

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Speaker 4: eyes on this. So yeah, I mean I would open

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Speaker 4: it to the floor. How's everybody feeling two weeks out

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Speaker 4: from I mean episode one? I adore, So I'm like,

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Speaker 4: I'm excited about it, but yeah, maybe just selfishly from

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Speaker 4: a like I like to put work out into the world,

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Speaker 4: and it's something that we put a lot of work into.

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Speaker 4: But how are you guys feeling good?

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's we've been at this for more than

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Speaker 1: a year, and the first episode especially, it's been done

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Speaker 1: for a while, yeah, you know, and so I am

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Speaker 1: definitely ready.

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Speaker 4: To start dropping the Yes, totally.

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Speaker 1: Like really really excited about it. I mean, the time

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Speaker 1: has been well spent. You know. They are better than when, yeah,

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Speaker 1: than when we first started them. But yeah, I'm definitely

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Speaker 1: ready ready for them to come out.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And it does feel kind of poetic that it's

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Speaker 2: not exactly homecoming week that the first episode is out.

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Speaker 2: It's like the week before, but it is essentially back

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Speaker 2: to school and when we were there a year ago.

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Speaker 2: Essentially starting the process of this campaign.

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Speaker 4: I don't know, there's only a little bit of anxiety

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Speaker 4: because I also have already heard all of the pushback.

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Speaker 4: You know, right, anything new, right? Yeah, No, one's come

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Speaker 4: up with the right like it's it's been the same

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Speaker 4: regurgitated lives for a minute. So I don't feel like

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Speaker 4: anything is going to blindside me. I think it's just

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Speaker 4: going to be you know, people who either don't listen

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Speaker 4: to it and they're still just digging their heels in,

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Speaker 4: or people who never thought about this idea and are like, wow,

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Speaker 4: that seems simple enough, why can't they just change it?

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Speaker 4: So I don't know, lots of feelings like that, just anticipating,

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Speaker 4: but really I can't predict anything at this point.

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Speaker 2: What do you hope people to kind of take away

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Speaker 2: from what the work you've put in and like how

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Speaker 2: to apply that for other people who are trying to

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Speaker 2: make changes.

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Speaker 4: I mean, I think the first thing is I really

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Speaker 4: want people to appreciate the work that went into it,

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Speaker 4: Like we've all been really grinding, We've been coming up

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Speaker 4: with ideas for how to tackle this in a way

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Speaker 4: that I think creatively is really inspiring. Like I'm inspired

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Speaker 4: by the process, and I feel like there are other

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Speaker 4: schools that could do something with this, and it feels

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Speaker 4: like something that lives beyond the podcast. So I hope

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Speaker 4: that people really do think about how they were brought

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Speaker 4: up and where they went to school and things ways

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Speaker 4: that they can be involved in their community. But I

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Speaker 4: also think, like you know, I think that the reality

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Speaker 4: of bureaucracy and the sort of fear that some people

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Speaker 4: have about standing up for anything. I hope that people,

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Speaker 4: you know, take that seriously and take it to heart

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Speaker 4: and recognize that it's not that people aren't trying to

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Speaker 4: make the world a better place necessarily, it's just that

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Speaker 4: there is a lot of pushback. There's a lot of risk,

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Speaker 4: and you know, hopefully when this episode comes out, I'm

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Speaker 4: not like blacklisted canceled and you're like, yeah, she was right,

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Speaker 4: she shouldn't said anything.

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Speaker 1: Or lost.

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Speaker 4: For episodes are like a free a KI launch. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: yeah she's detained and you know, we don't have any

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Speaker 4: hostages to exchange. But like, truly, I feel like it

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Speaker 4: is Yeah, it's just such a process that it feels

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Speaker 4: like there was no way to do it in fewer episodes.

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Speaker 4: We had to get to this point and it feels

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Speaker 4: like a real journey, so you.

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Speaker 2: Know, totally, and it's and just to like kind of

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Speaker 2: be clear for people listening, our team is the three

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Speaker 2: of us, yeah, plus are incredible editor Josie and our

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Speaker 2: assistant and that's it. Yeah, so it's a small but

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Speaker 2: mighty team. It's all about just bringing fun and like yeah, and.

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Speaker 4: You know what I mean, like that idea of having

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Speaker 4: people who disagree, you know, still have some value in

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Speaker 4: what we're trying to do there. Like it's not just

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Speaker 4: to say, like the tradition here sucks. It's far bigger

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Speaker 4: than that, where it's like, but you get to be

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Speaker 4: a part of the future of the place. Like you

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Speaker 4: get to write a new story in a new chapter,

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Speaker 4: and how exciting is that? Like how many opportunities do

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Speaker 4: you really get to do that? So I do think that,

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Speaker 4: like it is funny that like in the sort of

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Speaker 4: progressive world, we're having this moment of like, oh, what's

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Speaker 4: that hope feel like? And I'm like, that's what the

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Speaker 4: podcast looks like to me.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean to me, it's you know a thing

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Speaker 1: that I would I would like to think that the

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Speaker 1: folks in Florence could take back from it, but other

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Speaker 1: folks as well, is you know, so much of this

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Speaker 1: has been about these people tried it this way, These

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Speaker 1: people tried it that way, Like there is no one

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Speaker 1: like I think, if anything, to me, like over the

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Speaker 1: course of the year is realizing like, oh, we were

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Speaker 1: just such stupid babie ago, Like we thought we'd show

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Speaker 1: up and they'd be like, yeah, that's great, you know,

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Speaker 1: and just realizing like, you know, you talk to people

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Speaker 1: that have been at this for twenty years, you know,

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Speaker 1: you talk to people that came in at the very

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Speaker 1: end of like in Denver South that was really a

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Speaker 1: fifty year project. You know that that that then the

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Speaker 1: principle comes in at the very end of and is

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Speaker 1: finally able to get it over the line, you know,

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Speaker 1: like and each tactic that a place takes is specific to.

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Speaker 4: That place, you know, and it's never just the one try.

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Speaker 1: Right, you know, it's it's so many tries and it's

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Speaker 1: so many people to that point, right, And I think

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Speaker 1: that that, to me is one of the biggest things

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Speaker 1: that I kind of took away from it was just

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Speaker 1: how many different people we talked to and how you know,

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Speaker 1: while there were shared bits of a playbook, it was

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Speaker 1: always something different. It was always a different way that

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Speaker 1: they had to get this done.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, yeah, Yeah, and kind of speaking to I mean

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Speaker 2: truly the like dozens of people in interviews that were

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Speaker 2: done for the podcast. I'm wondering if there's because I think,

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Speaker 2: you know, one of our sort of additional episodes might

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Speaker 2: kind of be a little bit of a deeper dive

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Speaker 2: on some of the interviews because we were only able

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Speaker 2: to use snippets of what were like half hour or

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Speaker 2: forty five minute interviews. But I'm wondering, from both of

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Speaker 2: you who did the majority of the interviews, is there

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Speaker 2: one that kind of stood out as surprising or really

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Speaker 2: kind of helped kind of shift thoughts on this process,

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Speaker 2: or was just one of the people who kind of

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Speaker 2: had like a light bulb moment for you as as

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Speaker 2: you were talking to them off.

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Speaker 4: The top of my head, just because it was so

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Speaker 4: recent speaking with Jamel Hill, who you know, was outspoken

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Speaker 4: politically on a social network, you know, not on TV,

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Speaker 4: and still faced huge backlash. And instead of you know,

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Speaker 4: taking that and sort of tucking her tail between her

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Speaker 4: legs and being like, oh I learned my lesson, I'm

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Speaker 4: never going to say anything. It opened up a whole

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Speaker 4: additional part of her career and her life, you know,

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Speaker 4: like she found love, she moved on with her life,

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Speaker 4: and she's now able to be a lot more free,

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Speaker 4: and I think that just feels really good. Like that

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Speaker 4: interview was, you know, about this sort of sadness of

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Speaker 4: not being able to find a connection with Sean Alexander

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Speaker 4: to that point and just having her be like, you know,

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Speaker 4: I get why people don't speak out, but also I

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Speaker 4: am a great example of a person who did, and

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Speaker 4: so I don't know, I was really inspired. I find

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Speaker 4: myself thinking back to that conversation a lot.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it's hard to pick one, you know,

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Speaker 1: in part because I will listen back sometimes and be like, oh, right,

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Speaker 1: we did that, yeah, same, you know, like there's been

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Speaker 1: so many over so long. But I think that and

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Speaker 1: it might be because I've listened through that episode a

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Speaker 1: number of times recently. But Bobby Thomas from Denver, South right, Like,

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Speaker 1: at that point when we were when we finally connected

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Speaker 1: with him, we had been trying and trying and trying

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Speaker 1: to connect with people that had made that change, and

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Speaker 1: especially at the administration level, we could not find we

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Speaker 1: could not get anyone.

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Speaker 4: To, you know, I mean it was it was.

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Speaker 1: Remarkable how many like principles that were there at the

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Speaker 1: time that a change had been made that I reached

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Speaker 1: out to and they were like, oh, yeah, I don't

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Speaker 1: work there anymore, and I don't really talk about that anymore,

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Speaker 1: you know, I mean just and not just didn't work there,

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Speaker 1: but like worked somewhere halfway across the country, you know,

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Speaker 1: like they were able to get the change through and

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Speaker 1: then they got down from it. And like Bobby Thomas,

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Speaker 1: he's not at Denver South, but actually moved up in

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Speaker 1: the in that same district, and so talking with him,

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Speaker 1: to me, there's just a moment in that where he's

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Speaker 1: like it just fills my coat to talk about this,

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Speaker 1: and it was like, oh, me too now.

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Speaker 2: And wasn't he wearing like the shirt he.

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Speaker 1: Had a Rebels thing on? And then he put the.

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Speaker 2: He had a whole thing for the interview.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it was awesome. Yeah, And it's like, yeah, I

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Speaker 4: think just getting to hear someone who was successful talk

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Speaker 4: about like, you know, there was some risk to his family,

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Speaker 4: and you know, I think that maybe the weird sort

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Speaker 4: of like underbelly of such in my mind, very hopeful

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Speaker 4: podcast is like the reality is it's not necessarily safe,

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Speaker 4: Like there are people who are so committed to this

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Speaker 4: ugly history that they will threaten you. But also like

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Speaker 4: seeing him rise above that and to see the school

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Speaker 4: blossom because of it, Like that, that's that hope right now.

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Speaker 2: Totally talking of it, everyone talked about that subtler through

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Speaker 2: line of the pushback, but also like threats that they received.

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Speaker 2: I mean Annie talked about getting a call as a

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Speaker 2: kid and being like it just that being really scary,

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Speaker 2: and you know, Spencer and Jenna and everyone who was

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Speaker 2: sort of in support and Bethany like family members who

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Speaker 2: were against them, and you know, I think for certain people,

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Speaker 2: you know, it maybe is less of like a danger feeling,

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Speaker 2: but certainly it came with its own consequences of kind

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Speaker 2: of speaking out even just like writing it in off

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Speaker 2: it was all it was.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, it's like and people are just so married

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Speaker 4: to it, I mean, in that same vein Yeah, I

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Speaker 4: would say talking with Annie just because I mean we

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Speaker 4: obviously have a great child actor reading the letter, but

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Speaker 4: it is such a powerful letter to get from a child,

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Speaker 4: you know, and I think that like I was inspired

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Speaker 4: by that, Like I you know, when I was in

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Speaker 4: high school. I knew that the rebel was wrong, and

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Speaker 4: I talked to the black kids about it, but I

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Speaker 4: didn't petition the school, you know. I was like, let's

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Speaker 4: just get the hell out.

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Speaker 2: Of here, which is valid, right.

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Speaker 4: Because I'm like, you know, high school is hard enough, totally,

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Speaker 4: and so I think that there, you know, I was

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Speaker 4: heartened by the fact that someone was in the experience

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Speaker 4: and doing it and you know, stuck with it and

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Speaker 4: came back to town years later, and so I'm like,

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Speaker 4: you know what, maybe there's something to that. Maybe I'm

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Speaker 4: not just some weirdo coastal elite.

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Speaker 2: Well, and I thought it was also interesting Curtis Wilkie's

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Speaker 2: perspective on it, being so like truly his whole career,

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Speaker 2: He's eighty three, being a rebel at ole miss and

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Speaker 2: sort of saying, you know, well, the word rebel, I like,

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Speaker 2: I like being you know, against the mainstream and everything.

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Speaker 2: But if some if it's offensive to someone, I'm okay.

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Speaker 1: With the chance.

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Speaker 4: Exactly.

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Speaker 2: It felt so simple, like, yes, you can have strong

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Speaker 2: feelings about it and your history with it and be okay.

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Speaker 4: Exactly with it changing.

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Speaker 2: And that just doesn't seem to exist in.

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Speaker 4: Some totally right, right, And I think, you know, it

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Speaker 4: is this sort of nirational story of like, well, I

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Speaker 4: think we're finally ready. Yeah, I think your grandparents got it.

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Speaker 4: I think your great great grandparents got it. I think

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Speaker 4: now we have a generation that is diverse enough and

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Speaker 4: loud enough, and excited enough about the future and involved enough,

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Speaker 4: because you know, I'm sure there were people along all

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Speaker 4: of these decades that felt it and we're just like,

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Speaker 4: I'm up against too much. Yeah, And so you know,

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Speaker 4: I feel like this is the right moment. And I mean, gosh,

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Speaker 4: the interviews were just great. All yeah, it's all great.

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Speaker 2: And then I'm also wondering. I feel like there were

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Speaker 2: a few sort of surprising moments in the process, separate

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Speaker 2: from sort of the interviews but more locally the conversations

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Speaker 2: that we went to. Yeah, so my question is kind

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Speaker 2: of surprising both good and bad, Like, you know, there

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Speaker 2: are sort of both sides of the coin there, But

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Speaker 2: if there were, if you can kind of speak to

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Speaker 2: maybe a couple of moments that were surprising in a

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Speaker 2: good way, and then obviously we had some surprising in

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Speaker 2: a bad way moment and so totally maybe like one.

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Speaker 4: Of each of those I mean, I think I'm probably

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Speaker 4: speaking for all of us when I say going to

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Speaker 4: the board meeting and being completely blindsided by a coalition

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Speaker 4: of progressive Kentuckians speaking out against SB one fifty, speaking

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Speaker 4: out for trans children, speaking out for like, you know,

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Speaker 4: anything progressive in a town that seems really under wraps

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Speaker 4: and very you know, tightly wound and conservative. That was.

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Speaker 4: I mean, I still teer up every time I think

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Speaker 4: about that, Like I have the pin that we got

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Speaker 4: the rainbow heartpen, and I'm like, I grew up here.

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Speaker 4: I know that this isn't something that you could get

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Speaker 4: away with then, So it's like that feels like such

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Speaker 4: real progress that, Like I it was this moment of like,

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Speaker 4: oh we're not alone. Yeah, we actually have some people

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Speaker 4: who are like already ruffling feathers, already standing up for

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Speaker 4: what's right, you know. And there didn't seem to be

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Speaker 4: so many negative side effects to that, you know what

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Speaker 4: I mean, Like, if anything, they found community in a

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Speaker 4: place where I think people can be very lonely and isolated,

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Speaker 4: and that's why these sort of traditions stick around. It's

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Speaker 4: like no, they're they're reaching out to each other and

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Speaker 4: they're lifting each other up. So that was a great positive.

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Speaker 4: And then obviously miss Junteenth is just like in my

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Speaker 4: mind I would not say a nemesis because not powerful enough. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: just like an annoyance like that situation we right for

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Speaker 4: that week.

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Speaker 1: She was a nemesis right right, in part because she

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Speaker 1: was inescapable. Right everywhere we would turn, she would be there,

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Speaker 1: she'd be leaving messages. We'd show up in a place

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Speaker 1: and she it was whi.

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Speaker 4: It was wild. And I think that, like the reason

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Speaker 4: I can't get past it, like and just be like,

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Speaker 4: say something else negative is because the school district really

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Speaker 4: did seem invested in putting her forward as the black

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Speaker 4: face to say it's fine. Yeah, And when when we

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Speaker 4: had this conversation about it, which we obviously couldn't run

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Speaker 4: in full, I felt just like do you even believe

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Speaker 4: what you're saying? Like that was the I think the

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Speaker 4: disappointment was, like what is what is the endgame here?

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Speaker 4: Because like you you there's no world where you believe

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Speaker 4: this is right, you know what I mean, Like, there's

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Speaker 4: no world where you are a black person who's like

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Speaker 4: I'm actually great with the Confederate theme of the school.

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Speaker 4: And I think that black kids should go to a

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Speaker 4: school like this, and I think that, like, you know,

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Speaker 4: we actually shouldn't change anything else to be more positive

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Speaker 4: or bring in any change, Like I don't buy it,

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Speaker 4: and so I'm like, oh, then, like what's the grift?

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Speaker 4: Like for me? There was no benefit for her, right,

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Speaker 4: And so I was like that sucks. Carrying water for

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Speaker 4: people who literally don't give a shit about you is

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Speaker 4: how I felt. And so just very that was like,

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Speaker 4: I mean for me, gosh, totally pissed me off.

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Speaker 1: And that it that it came literally the night after

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Speaker 1: you had come back from the school board and had

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Speaker 1: had really been quite lifted by what we had seen,

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Speaker 1: Like you know, I mean we really walked into that

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Speaker 1: room and we were like, whoa, this is super full,

351
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Speaker 1: like shit's going down and this is not going to

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Speaker 1: be good. And then it was exactly the opposite of

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Speaker 1: what we had expected. And we really did come back

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Speaker 1: from that night like whoa, Okay, like change is possible.

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Speaker 1: And then you were like I just got a weird

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Speaker 1: voicemail and then it was off to the races, right,

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Speaker 1: And by the end of that week, it was like, oh,

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Speaker 1: this is this is not working.

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Speaker 4: So disheartening.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it was so disheartening.

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Speaker 4: And now I think like at the end of this process,

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Speaker 4: I mean, who knows if it's the end, But at

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Speaker 4: this point in the process, like that so doesn't matter,

364
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Speaker 4: you know what I mean, like we've gotten so much right,

365
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Speaker 4: It's like that was their poultry attempt to, you know,

366
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Speaker 4: just kill the movement. Yeah, and I'm like, great, well

367
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Speaker 4: that was cute. We're gonna keep going.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, and it also it did make us work harder.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, And that's a fact.

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Speaker 1: And that wasn't necessarily a bad thing. You know, Like

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Speaker 1: the number of angles and approaches that we took after

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Speaker 1: that week was was so much more than we had

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Speaker 1: originally kind of envisioned. And the and the people that

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Speaker 1: we you know, that week that we connected with, that's

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Speaker 1: where we met j and b LDG. You know, that's

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Speaker 1: where we met Spencer, That's where you know, there were

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Speaker 1: a number of moments in that in that week that

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Speaker 1: really did kind of send us off in directions that

379
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Speaker 1: we weren't expecting to go. And and I do feel

380
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Speaker 1: like the complete door slam that we got from the

381
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Speaker 1: administration pushed us in a way that ultimately the show

382
00:20:00,440 --> 00:20:03,560
Speaker 1: is better for And I think that people that have

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Speaker 1: listened have gone much further than you know, with us

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Speaker 1: than they would have gone.

385
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Speaker 4: Absolutely, absolutely, and it's you know, it just mirrors reality

386
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Speaker 4: because it is it's like, yeah, you you don't necessarily

387
00:20:15,400 --> 00:20:18,520
Speaker 4: get the easy win. You have to figure out so

388
00:20:18,560 --> 00:20:21,680
Speaker 4: many strategies to figure it out. And yeah, it does

389
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Speaker 4: feel just like we were able to connect with far

390
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Speaker 4: more people who have done far more with their lives

391
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Speaker 4: once we were sort of like you know, pushed out.

392
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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, well, and I feel like that kind of

393
00:20:34,080 --> 00:20:37,360
Speaker 2: it's such a small town feel too, for being right

394
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Speaker 2: outside of Cincinnati. It was kind of that vibe of

395
00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:45,800
Speaker 2: like everyone who is involved with the school directly has

396
00:20:46,119 --> 00:20:49,520
Speaker 2: a lot to lose potentially, and it's just not worth

397
00:20:49,560 --> 00:20:52,639
Speaker 2: it for them, which is unfortunate because it feels like

398
00:20:52,640 --> 00:20:56,320
Speaker 2: a selfish choice given the students that they serve, Like

399
00:20:56,800 --> 00:21:01,000
Speaker 2: the board positions are elected, you should be serving your constituents,

400
00:21:01,040 --> 00:21:04,280
Speaker 2: and you know, people are there advocating, and so much

401
00:21:04,359 --> 00:21:08,359
Speaker 2: of the what was frustratingly thrown at us felt just

402
00:21:08,480 --> 00:21:13,480
Speaker 2: like bureaucracy and just like, oh, well, we can't talk

403
00:21:13,520 --> 00:21:16,000
Speaker 2: about this at the board. We don't have any jurisdiction.

404
00:21:16,680 --> 00:21:19,760
Speaker 2: So much run around of just who can do what,

405
00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:23,439
Speaker 2: and the in reality, it's like, if someone of power

406
00:21:23,480 --> 00:21:26,840
Speaker 2: wants this to happen, it would be done. So like

407
00:21:26,880 --> 00:21:31,080
Speaker 2: that's been proven literally in other counties and districts in Kentucky.

408
00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:34,040
Speaker 2: So we've seen that if the board were to mandate

409
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Speaker 2: all the problematic mascots of any sort need to go away,

410
00:21:37,960 --> 00:21:38,600
Speaker 2: then it happened.

411
00:21:38,640 --> 00:21:40,840
Speaker 4: I mean they were able to do it with mister Rebel,

412
00:21:41,080 --> 00:21:43,200
Speaker 4: you know, they were able to do it with the

413
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Speaker 4: Confederate flags in the nineties. So it's like, it is

414
00:21:45,840 --> 00:21:49,119
Speaker 4: kind of this strange, I don't know, it's weird that

415
00:21:49,119 --> 00:21:52,800
Speaker 4: you would rely on that lie when history has shown

416
00:21:52,800 --> 00:21:55,080
Speaker 4: this at your school that like actually just took one

417
00:21:55,119 --> 00:21:57,879
Speaker 4: person standing up and say, but we're not doing that anymore.

418
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Speaker 2: Yeah.

419
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Speaker 1: I mean they have hung a lot of things around,

420
00:22:00,800 --> 00:22:03,080
Speaker 1: a lot of lies for a very long time, right,

421
00:22:03,200 --> 00:22:07,600
Speaker 1: Like whatever lie is convenient at the moment is the

422
00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:10,080
Speaker 1: one that you can hang on to, you know, and

423
00:22:10,119 --> 00:22:12,760
Speaker 1: not a lot of people will question it, you know,

424
00:22:12,880 --> 00:22:15,960
Speaker 1: And I think that that's that was one of the

425
00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:20,040
Speaker 1: really early things for me, was like this Jameston thing.

426
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Speaker 5: Just so clearly not true, and it was like, how

427
00:22:27,119 --> 00:22:30,240
Speaker 5: do we just figure this out, you.

428
00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:35,240
Speaker 1: Know, and just and then and then definitively we did it.

429
00:22:35,480 --> 00:22:37,760
Speaker 1: Just took a lot of looking at archives and to

430
00:22:37,840 --> 00:22:42,200
Speaker 1: be to be you know, I mean, the the Boone

431
00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:48,639
Speaker 1: County Library System, to their credit, digitized everything decades and

432
00:22:48,720 --> 00:22:51,440
Speaker 1: decades of newspapers, which is amazing, Like you don't see

433
00:22:51,480 --> 00:22:53,840
Speaker 1: that in a lot of places. And so we were

434
00:22:53,880 --> 00:22:56,600
Speaker 1: able to do that work and and just shift sift

435
00:22:56,680 --> 00:22:58,920
Speaker 1: through it all. There was no there was no way

436
00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:01,399
Speaker 1: of doing it quick is just read and read and

437
00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:04,160
Speaker 1: read and read and read and finally figure it out.

438
00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:08,120
Speaker 1: But it's like just the convenience of lies, you know,

439
00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:12,679
Speaker 1: and really how easy those lies are to disprove, you know,

440
00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:15,760
Speaker 1: is I think one of the big lessons of this

441
00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:19,080
Speaker 1: is and I mean that's always been true, Like the

442
00:23:19,119 --> 00:23:21,400
Speaker 1: history of racism in America is the history of very

443
00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:26,760
Speaker 1: easily pushed over that everyone will hang on to and

444
00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:29,359
Speaker 1: and it's just that they hang onto it. That power

445
00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:34,320
Speaker 1: hangs onto a weak lie is what keeps that lie around, right,

446
00:23:34,359 --> 00:23:37,880
Speaker 1: But if you can disprove it, it weakens, you know.

447
00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:41,320
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm we don't know yet what the reaction

448
00:23:41,520 --> 00:23:46,880
Speaker 1: of the rebel without a cause exposure, I can't.

449
00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:51,320
Speaker 4: I feel like I'm gonna get blocked on Facebook everybody

450
00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:51,960
Speaker 4: and they're.

451
00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:52,560
Speaker 5: Like, no ship.

452
00:23:55,080 --> 00:23:57,440
Speaker 1: And maybe I'm naive, but I don't know how you

453
00:23:57,480 --> 00:24:00,919
Speaker 1: stand that up still sure that, yeah, because it is

454
00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:05,280
Speaker 1: so flimsy. Yeah, and it is so disproved right well.

455
00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:07,639
Speaker 2: And beyond that, I mean, even just looking in the

456
00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:12,080
Speaker 2: library at the yearbooks and all of the like images

457
00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:14,760
Speaker 2: of mister Rebel, all the Confederate images, the literal like

458
00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:19,160
Speaker 2: slave day that they had was all so clearly problematic.

459
00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:22,000
Speaker 2: And I think what's interesting is when even we had

460
00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:27,399
Speaker 2: one of the Louisville Public Radio covered the Juneteenth when

461
00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:29,560
Speaker 2: we were there and you know, showing that reporter some

462
00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:31,280
Speaker 2: of the photos and like what was in near book.

463
00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:32,840
Speaker 2: I mean, she was just shocked.

464
00:24:33,040 --> 00:24:35,080
Speaker 4: She was like, this is real. This in like the

465
00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:36,800
Speaker 4: fact that it was not in nineteen fifty but it

466
00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:39,000
Speaker 4: was in the eighties and ninety It's like, and.

467
00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:42,040
Speaker 2: So the fact that there isn't a desire to distance

468
00:24:42,040 --> 00:24:46,760
Speaker 2: from that but rather to claim that as.

469
00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:48,520
Speaker 4: The history, it's just so well, you know what it

470
00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:49,920
Speaker 4: is at the end of the day. And like I

471
00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:53,080
Speaker 4: think I've said it before, but it's like it's cowardice.

472
00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:56,119
Speaker 4: It's like you can look at the reality of history

473
00:24:56,160 --> 00:24:58,560
Speaker 4: and say, you know what, the people who came before

474
00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:01,920
Speaker 4: me were wrong. Fortunately they were wrong and the thing

475
00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:04,400
Speaker 4: they did hurt people, and we can be better now,

476
00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:07,280
Speaker 4: or you can make up one hundred lies that like

477
00:25:07,560 --> 00:25:11,239
Speaker 4: anybody with eyes and eyes that work can look at

478
00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:15,320
Speaker 4: them and say, guess what that's not James Dean. Yeah, no,

479
00:25:15,359 --> 00:25:18,880
Speaker 4: one's confused about it. Like he was never in the yearbook.

480
00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:20,600
Speaker 4: They didn't mention him when he died. I mean, like

481
00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:24,320
Speaker 4: these are this is obvious stuff, and it's like you

482
00:25:24,440 --> 00:25:26,639
Speaker 4: have to wonder, like if you're in that deep of

483
00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:28,800
Speaker 4: denial to make this up and then stand by it

484
00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:32,800
Speaker 4: when it's like we're looking at the thing well and even.

485
00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:35,240
Speaker 2: Hearing just anecdotally from like Quincy when he talked about

486
00:25:35,280 --> 00:25:36,560
Speaker 2: the shooting machine still.

487
00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:37,399
Speaker 4: Has moster rebel on it.

488
00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:41,119
Speaker 2: And then throughout the year we've seen sort of images

489
00:25:41,280 --> 00:25:44,159
Speaker 2: pop up with you know, it being on uniforms that

490
00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:47,520
Speaker 2: were sold at Walgreens and the wrestling shorts and things

491
00:25:47,560 --> 00:25:50,680
Speaker 2: like that. It's just so clear, and we talked about

492
00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:53,879
Speaker 2: it in the podcast that until the rebel's name is gone,

493
00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:57,000
Speaker 2: that's always going to be an aspect of it. As

494
00:25:57,080 --> 00:25:59,960
Speaker 2: much as they say that there's no more Confederate or

495
00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:03,880
Speaker 2: Cerebel imagery. It's like twenty twenty four and still there.

496
00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:06,520
Speaker 4: Right, so and how happy I mean, I again if

497
00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:10,000
Speaker 4: they don't ever change the name. But they're like, it's

498
00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:13,000
Speaker 4: the James Dan Rebels. Now everybody's wearing little leather jackets

499
00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:19,560
Speaker 4: and we're all greasers and we have emotional problems, like sure, sure, okay, fine,

500
00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:22,040
Speaker 4: but it's like there's no like you're saying you can't

501
00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:25,399
Speaker 4: divorce those two things, like, and they're not going to

502
00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:27,399
Speaker 4: commit to doing James Dean and they're not going to

503
00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:30,520
Speaker 4: get the rights to Star Wars. Maybe that should have

504
00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:31,399
Speaker 4: been our angle all along.

505
00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:36,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, George Lucas is on board with allowing high schools.

506
00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:40,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, the Star Wars. There is a team from Mascot

507
00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:43,960
Speaker 4: d B called the Millennium Falcons. Cool but they're just Falcons.

508
00:26:43,960 --> 00:26:45,960
Speaker 4: But they like started the school in two thousands, So

509
00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:49,440
Speaker 4: like that's sick, that's actually but that's what I feel like.

510
00:26:49,480 --> 00:26:52,800
Speaker 2: There's such an opportunity to be cool and creative and right,

511
00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:55,879
Speaker 2: you know, I think in I can't quite remember which episode,

512
00:26:55,880 --> 00:26:57,800
Speaker 2: but you know, there's an episode where we kind of

513
00:26:57,840 --> 00:27:01,439
Speaker 2: speak to some of the local things that it could be, like,

514
00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:04,919
Speaker 2: you know, there are various there's cool birds and like

515
00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:07,479
Speaker 2: different types of butterflies that are local to the area.

516
00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:11,600
Speaker 2: There could be something really neat about it. And it's

517
00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:14,720
Speaker 2: just so not anything right right.

518
00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:17,040
Speaker 4: I mean, one thing that's funny that didn't get in

519
00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:19,439
Speaker 4: the podcast, but something somewhere where we sort of started

520
00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:22,439
Speaker 4: was the fact that like Daniel Boone is a person

521
00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:26,600
Speaker 4: who is deeply discredited throughout history. His bones aren't even

522
00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:29,119
Speaker 4: in Kentucky. And it's like, so it's like, I do

523
00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:31,320
Speaker 4: think that there is almost this long.

524
00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:36,760
Speaker 1: That was like one of the very first planning calls

525
00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:38,480
Speaker 1: that me and you had, and it.

526
00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:41,960
Speaker 3: Was just like, oh my god, how deep are we

527
00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:45,359
Speaker 3: going here, Like we've exposed one line now we're realizingly

528
00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:48,560
Speaker 3: right Boone County is named after a guy who isn't

529
00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:49,560
Speaker 3: buried there, like.

530
00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:52,399
Speaker 1: Who lies might be a black man in his grave.

531
00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:55,119
Speaker 1: And the one like it was just oh my god,

532
00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:56,680
Speaker 1: that was like an hour where.

533
00:27:56,480 --> 00:27:58,080
Speaker 4: It was I bought a book.

534
00:27:58,320 --> 00:28:00,000
Speaker 1: Further down we go.

535
00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:06,520
Speaker 4: It's like very Daniel Boone like scaffolding of life when

536
00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:08,439
Speaker 4: you think of it that way, like this is just

537
00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:13,080
Speaker 4: the longest history of lying it's like it does feel

538
00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:14,920
Speaker 4: more lighthearted in the end, where you're like, oh, these

539
00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:18,080
Speaker 4: people are just lyars on way down, Like you got

540
00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:21,160
Speaker 4: to just say listen, we're gonna start telling the truth

541
00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:25,000
Speaker 4: now today. Sorry about all that weird stuff because like

542
00:28:25,320 --> 00:28:28,000
Speaker 4: it is just this interesting history where I'm like, that's

543
00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:29,760
Speaker 4: it's very fascinating.

544
00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:31,920
Speaker 2: Okay, my last question, well whatever, you can keep talking.

545
00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:34,480
Speaker 2: But my last question, for the most part, is like,

546
00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:37,760
Speaker 2: how has this changed, if at all, your relationship with

547
00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:41,240
Speaker 2: your hometown and how you feel about it again, both

548
00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:43,280
Speaker 2: good and bad. Like there's probably people that we met

549
00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:45,640
Speaker 2: along this, you know, this process that you, as a

550
00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:48,600
Speaker 2: high school student would have been thrilled to know about,

551
00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:51,920
Speaker 2: but maybe didn't exist then. So yeah, I mean you've

552
00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:54,240
Speaker 2: spent you know, we've made a few trips back, so

553
00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:55,440
Speaker 2: you spent some more time there.

554
00:28:55,640 --> 00:28:58,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, I guess I'll start with the good.

555
00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:01,560
Speaker 4: I do think that like Amber Hoffman, that group of people,

556
00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:05,160
Speaker 4: you know, the librarians, the women we met at Juneteenth

557
00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:07,920
Speaker 4: who were running for office, Like there seems to be

558
00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:11,960
Speaker 4: some whispers of hope there in a way that like

559
00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:14,840
Speaker 4: truly there was none of that growing up. Like I

560
00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:18,040
Speaker 4: can't express enough how Like when I say it's changed,

561
00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:23,280
Speaker 4: it has changed monumentally in my lifetime. I think that,

562
00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:26,560
Speaker 4: you know, I've spoken to a few friends who are

563
00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:30,200
Speaker 4: from small places in the South who are now in

564
00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:34,920
Speaker 4: New York or Chicago or LA or Nashville, and even

565
00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:37,400
Speaker 4: people who were like progressive but could not talk about

566
00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:39,520
Speaker 4: it in high school, who I've known for years and

567
00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:44,000
Speaker 4: years who are in the South again but didn't choose

568
00:29:44,080 --> 00:29:48,560
Speaker 4: Kentucky and didn't choose Florence. And so like, the thing

569
00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:50,600
Speaker 4: that we all keep kind of coming back to is like,

570
00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:54,920
Speaker 4: why why is this place worth saving? And I think

571
00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:58,400
Speaker 4: that it's always been very clear for me because I'm like, well,

572
00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:00,240
Speaker 4: there are other kids who are gonna have to go

573
00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:03,200
Speaker 4: through this, and like it sucked having to consistently be

574
00:30:03,320 --> 00:30:06,040
Speaker 4: like I'm rooting for this where I'm I'm competing on

575
00:30:06,120 --> 00:30:09,120
Speaker 4: behalf of this thing. It's on the outfit I have

576
00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:13,440
Speaker 4: to wear, like it's you know, that was awful. So

577
00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:16,280
Speaker 4: like it's enough. But then there's also just the conversations

578
00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:18,040
Speaker 4: with those people who are like, well, I just never

579
00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:21,560
Speaker 4: go home again. Yeah, And so like I think that

580
00:30:22,360 --> 00:30:26,560
Speaker 4: if the backlash to this is something where it's dangerous

581
00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:28,560
Speaker 4: to go back, or my mom has to move or

582
00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:32,920
Speaker 4: you know, just like whatever I've had to think about,

583
00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:37,160
Speaker 4: like am I okay? Never like using that airport to

584
00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:40,920
Speaker 4: get to Cincinnati and like never stopping. And I don't

585
00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:43,000
Speaker 4: want to feel that way. Like there's a lot I

586
00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:45,840
Speaker 4: do think there's so much hope there, Like truly the

587
00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:48,920
Speaker 4: Florence y'all's what they were able to achieve, the fact

588
00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:52,360
Speaker 4: that it's something to do the fact that there are sidewalks,

589
00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:56,600
Speaker 4: which I harp on it on a podcast, like these

590
00:30:56,600 --> 00:30:59,040
Speaker 4: are things that I think are valuable, and I think

591
00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:02,400
Speaker 4: that the history is in and so it's like there's

592
00:31:02,440 --> 00:31:05,280
Speaker 4: no loss to me. But I do feel like my

593
00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:08,360
Speaker 4: my only trepidation is like I don't want it to

594
00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:10,800
Speaker 4: be a place where I can never go again, even

595
00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:13,080
Speaker 4: if it's somewhere I don't go, you know, all the

596
00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:16,480
Speaker 4: time in the future. I guess just to say I

597
00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:20,320
Speaker 4: think that, like this is such a worthwhile process, like

598
00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:22,960
Speaker 4: it's worked that I'm really proud of, not just because

599
00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:25,880
Speaker 4: I think the podcast is amazing, which I do. I

600
00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:29,280
Speaker 4: think it's like as a product, wonderful, like we should

601
00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:32,200
Speaker 4: be very proud of, like how hard we worked and

602
00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:35,400
Speaker 4: how many amazing people we got to speak with, Like

603
00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:38,640
Speaker 4: that feels like a real privilege, but beyond just like

604
00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:40,560
Speaker 4: it being good in that way, Like I think that

605
00:31:40,800 --> 00:31:44,239
Speaker 4: I have also learned that when you are trying to

606
00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:48,280
Speaker 4: do something positive, people will just find it and find you.

607
00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:51,160
Speaker 4: Like the moment we met Amber Hoffman, she must have

608
00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:54,200
Speaker 4: mentioned us to a few people. Suddenly I'm getting emails

609
00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:56,040
Speaker 4: from people who are like, this is so great. I

610
00:31:56,080 --> 00:31:58,200
Speaker 4: just wanted to tell you to keep going, or you know,

611
00:31:58,280 --> 00:32:01,640
Speaker 4: I'm trying to do something similar, like this sounds really interesting.

612
00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:05,479
Speaker 4: When I posted the trailer for the podcast over the summer,

613
00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:07,800
Speaker 4: I got so many messages from people who were like,

614
00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:09,440
Speaker 4: I went to a college that was the Rebels, and

615
00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:11,240
Speaker 4: I hate that about it. I went to a high

616
00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:13,440
Speaker 4: school that was like this, and it makes so much

617
00:32:13,440 --> 00:32:15,280
Speaker 4: sense to me now, but I back then, you know,

618
00:32:15,320 --> 00:32:18,200
Speaker 4: I played football there, Like there is this growth that

619
00:32:18,240 --> 00:32:21,239
Speaker 4: you get to see in this, you know, excitement around it.

620
00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:24,440
Speaker 4: And then the other thing was just like getting messages

621
00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:26,400
Speaker 4: from people who were lucky enough to be at a

622
00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:29,960
Speaker 4: school that maybe didn't change from a problematic mascot, but

623
00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:32,800
Speaker 4: they were there when they were consolidating school, so they

624
00:32:32,800 --> 00:32:35,440
Speaker 4: got to choose their mascot and it was, you know,

625
00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:37,480
Speaker 4: the nineties, so they got to choose something cool and

626
00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:39,880
Speaker 4: they're like, oh my gosh, we're the Wave and our

627
00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:42,840
Speaker 4: colors are teal and purple and it's like in Virginia

628
00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:45,080
Speaker 4: or something, and You're like, this is like the fact

629
00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:47,560
Speaker 4: that you're so excited to share, this is what I'm

630
00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:49,760
Speaker 4: hoping for. So I think that what I learned was

631
00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:52,600
Speaker 4: like just the idea of like, I'm not the only

632
00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:56,000
Speaker 4: person thinking that we should do something better here, and

633
00:32:56,280 --> 00:32:59,480
Speaker 4: people who want to help you change something will find you.

634
00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:01,200
Speaker 4: So it's like, I think it's just it's worth the

635
00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:06,520
Speaker 4: risk totally. That's what I got. Rebel Spirit is a

636
00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:10,080
Speaker 4: production of Ninth Planet Audio and association with iHeart Podcasts.

637
00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:13,280
Speaker 4: Reporting and writing by me Akuila Hughes. I'm also an

638
00:33:13,320 --> 00:33:19,120
Speaker 4: executive producer and the host. Produced by Dan Sinker, edited

639
00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:19,760
Speaker 4: by Josie A.

640
00:33:19,840 --> 00:33:20,720
Speaker 5: Zahm Our.

641
00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:24,560
Speaker 4: Assistant editor is Jennifer Dean. Music composed by Charlie Sun,

642
00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:28,280
Speaker 4: Sound design and mixing by Josie A. Zahmb Our. Production

643
00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:32,320
Speaker 4: coordinator is Kyle Hinton. Our clearance coordinator is Anna Sunenshine.

644
00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:36,640
Speaker 4: Production accounting by Dill pret Sing. Additional research support from

645
00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:39,880
Speaker 4: Janis Dillard. Special thanks to Jay Becker and the whole

646
00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:44,080
Speaker 4: team at BLDG the Florence y'alls, Amber Hoffman, and Leslie Chambers.

647
00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:47,840
Speaker 4: Executive producers for Ninth Planet Audio are Elizabeth Baquet and

648
00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:51,680
Speaker 4: Jimmy Miller