WEBVTT - Calling Bullshit with Jill Louise Busby 0:00:15.396 --> 0:00:25.076 Pushkin from Pushkin Industries. This is Deep Background, the show 0:00:25.116 --> 0:00:28.676 where we explore the stories behind the stories in the news. 0:00:29.236 --> 0:00:34.356 I'm Noah Feldman. Today's conversation on Deep Background grew out 0:00:34.396 --> 0:00:37.756 of an extraordinary new book that I read as part 0:00:37.796 --> 0:00:40.436 of a project of working my way through a whole 0:00:40.556 --> 0:00:44.676 pile of recent books of memoirs and non fiction essays. 0:00:45.436 --> 0:00:49.676 The book is called Unfollow Me Essays on Complicity, and 0:00:49.796 --> 0:00:55.156 it's by a remarkable intellectual called Jill Louise Buzby. Jill 0:00:55.436 --> 0:00:59.116 had worked for years in the nonprofit sector focusing on 0:00:59.276 --> 0:01:05.156 diversity and inclusion when she uploaded a short and powerful 0:01:05.396 --> 0:01:10.076 video in which she called out white liberal progressives and 0:01:10.316 --> 0:01:14.956 the corporate nonprofit machine in which she had been a participant. 0:01:15.956 --> 0:01:18.876 The video went viral, and it helped turn her into 0:01:18.956 --> 0:01:22.836 an Instagram influencer using the screen name Jill is Black. 0:01:23.396 --> 0:01:26.596 In the years that followed, Jill became a widely recognized 0:01:26.676 --> 0:01:32.636 figure on social media, commenting on issues of race and identity. 0:01:32.756 --> 0:01:35.596 In the book, what Jill does is she turns the 0:01:35.716 --> 0:01:41.156 very same sharp knife of her incisive analysis and criticism 0:01:41.196 --> 0:01:46.436 onto herself. The result is a book of searing honesty 0:01:46.716 --> 0:01:52.036 and genuine self reflection about the phenomena of power, identity, 0:01:52.116 --> 0:01:55.236 and race that are occurring in real time today and 0:01:55.356 --> 0:01:58.516 what happens when, through her own success, she starts to 0:01:58.516 --> 0:02:02.356 confront the possibilities of a role of power in an 0:02:02.396 --> 0:02:06.796 infrastructure that she has been deeply committed to criticizing. I'm 0:02:06.836 --> 0:02:10.156 thrilled that Jill agreed to come onto deep background to 0:02:10.196 --> 0:02:13.236 talk about this amazing book, and I know you're going 0:02:13.276 --> 0:02:19.956 to love this conversation as much as I did. Jill, 0:02:20.036 --> 0:02:22.636 thank you so much for being here, and thank you 0:02:22.676 --> 0:02:28.116 for your amazing book, unfollow Me Essays on Complicity, which 0:02:28.116 --> 0:02:30.316 I just had a chance to read. I know it 0:02:30.396 --> 0:02:33.236 just came out and it blew me away. Thank you. 0:02:33.956 --> 0:02:37.036 I want to start by saying something that I felt 0:02:37.116 --> 0:02:40.756 very strongly on reading the book, and that is you 0:02:40.796 --> 0:02:46.156 have an uncanny and exquisitely honed talent for calling bullshit. 0:02:48.236 --> 0:02:52.436 My mother would be so proud. It's definitely a family trait. 0:02:52.596 --> 0:02:55.956 My mother growing up, she could handle almost everything except 0:02:55.996 --> 0:02:59.556 for bullshit, so I knew that that wasn't allowed. One 0:02:59.556 --> 0:03:01.116 of the things I want to try to do in 0:03:01.116 --> 0:03:04.516 this interview is convey to listeners who might not have 0:03:04.516 --> 0:03:06.636 had a chance to read the book yet, and who 0:03:06.716 --> 0:03:09.116 might or might not have known about your online work 0:03:09.236 --> 0:03:13.596 before the book, the layering that's in this amazing book. 0:03:14.276 --> 0:03:16.516 And you know in the book there's this kind of 0:03:16.556 --> 0:03:22.076 subtle process where you start calling bullshit on white people 0:03:22.196 --> 0:03:27.716 with the dear white people mode, then you gradually start 0:03:27.796 --> 0:03:31.636 calling bullshit on black people with the dear Black people mode. Right, 0:03:32.316 --> 0:03:34.796 And then at some point we got to the third level, 0:03:35.156 --> 0:03:37.796 which is in some ways the most fascinating, where you 0:03:37.836 --> 0:03:41.236 start calling bullshit on yourself. Yes, talk a little bit 0:03:41.276 --> 0:03:45.596 about what the experience was like for you intellectually when 0:03:45.636 --> 0:03:50.516 you were discovering that your capacity to call bullshit drew 0:03:50.556 --> 0:03:55.596 an audience. Right. I always think that people want more 0:03:55.636 --> 0:03:58.276 honesty then they say, I think it makes them feel 0:03:58.316 --> 0:04:00.556 seen in a way that is intimate. And I think 0:04:00.556 --> 0:04:03.036 there was intimacy that I had with my audience and 0:04:03.076 --> 0:04:06.076 trust that was built very quickly because all I really 0:04:06.076 --> 0:04:08.556 had to do was stay consistent with saying things that 0:04:08.596 --> 0:04:12.036 they weren't hearing elsewhere. And I think that's still something 0:04:12.116 --> 0:04:16.436 that I get to do. It's not about intellect, I subjective. 0:04:16.476 --> 0:04:19.436 I don't know what that really means anymore. What I 0:04:19.476 --> 0:04:22.476 do promise is that I'm going to always be doing 0:04:22.516 --> 0:04:25.236 the work of being honest about how I actually feel. 0:04:25.316 --> 0:04:28.316 So I was already doing it personally with my family 0:04:28.396 --> 0:04:30.356 or with myself. It was interesting to me and I 0:04:30.396 --> 0:04:33.156 was very curious about myself. But then really all that 0:04:33.196 --> 0:04:35.476 happened was I began to say it in public, and 0:04:35.556 --> 0:04:38.356 especially as we become again more scripted and people are 0:04:38.396 --> 0:04:41.436 scared to be themselves online. I think, you know, the 0:04:41.436 --> 0:04:43.796 messages that I get now are like, oh, thanks for 0:04:43.836 --> 0:04:47.756 saying the stuff that we're all thinking, and well, that 0:04:47.876 --> 0:04:50.956 means that there is something that is happening where people 0:04:50.956 --> 0:04:52.996 are thinking things and they are scared to show up 0:04:53.036 --> 0:04:55.076 as themselves. And I don't think that's going to push 0:04:55.156 --> 0:04:58.596 us towards more honesty and diversity and inclusion or anti 0:04:58.716 --> 0:05:01.796 racism work to say, Oh, I know what to say now, 0:05:02.156 --> 0:05:06.196 but did we really fix anything with all of these words, 0:05:06.196 --> 0:05:10.076 all of this rhetoric. To me, No, and especially in 0:05:10.076 --> 0:05:11.996 the style in which I was doing it, which was 0:05:12.076 --> 0:05:16.036 one minute monologuing around. You know, I didn't really react 0:05:16.076 --> 0:05:18.516 to headlines because that felt like it was going to 0:05:18.636 --> 0:05:22.716 date my material. So I wasn't doing that. But I 0:05:22.996 --> 0:05:24.996 just I got tired of it, and I started answering 0:05:25.036 --> 0:05:27.356 my own questions, such as, if I were a white 0:05:27.356 --> 0:05:31.356 liberal person and a scary and chaotic society where I 0:05:31.356 --> 0:05:33.436 don't feel like I have a lot of control outside 0:05:33.476 --> 0:05:36.196 of my identity and the idea of privilege, would I 0:05:36.236 --> 0:05:40.316 give that up? Would I genuinely give that up? I mean, 0:05:40.396 --> 0:05:42.916 I don't know. I see people of all identities not 0:05:42.996 --> 0:05:45.596 giving up what they have all the time, including me, 0:05:45.796 --> 0:05:48.436 And we were entertaining this conversation that we didn't understand 0:05:48.516 --> 0:05:50.996 how white people could go and do all of these things, 0:05:51.076 --> 0:05:52.876 but we do them all the time. I pick up 0:05:52.916 --> 0:05:55.116 my phone. I don't know who that affects. I ordered 0:05:55.116 --> 0:05:57.516 from this company. I try not to think about. We 0:05:57.796 --> 0:06:00.676 were all doing this. So eventually it felt silly to 0:06:00.676 --> 0:06:02.836 single out. It could be true, but it felt silly 0:06:02.836 --> 0:06:04.796 in the work that I was doing to keep singling 0:06:04.796 --> 0:06:09.116 out when I was doing some of the same things 0:06:09.196 --> 0:06:11.876 without the same level of power history. Sure, but I 0:06:12.276 --> 0:06:15.676 understood what we were doing, which is trying to be safe, 0:06:15.836 --> 0:06:20.076 trying to avoid being the other group of people. You 0:06:20.076 --> 0:06:21.396 can say that you want to help them, but you 0:06:21.436 --> 0:06:24.156 never want to be them, right, and in fact, to 0:06:24.196 --> 0:06:26.116 say you want to help somebody is to self define 0:06:26.156 --> 0:06:28.796 as not that right to exactly. You know, one of 0:06:28.836 --> 0:06:33.396 the things that kind I found inspiring and that I 0:06:33.396 --> 0:06:36.316 have myself struggled with is and you just mentioned privilege, 0:06:36.316 --> 0:06:37.596 which is what put it into my mind. And I 0:06:37.636 --> 0:06:39.276 also was thinking this when I was reading your book. 0:06:39.916 --> 0:06:45.476 The formulation check your privilege often translates into acknowledge your privilege. 0:06:46.076 --> 0:06:48.076 And I happen to be someone who's had a lot 0:06:48.076 --> 0:06:50.956 of privilege in my life on pretty much every possible dimension, 0:06:51.636 --> 0:06:55.236 and I have noticed that when I acknowledge and speak 0:06:55.276 --> 0:06:58.716 about those facts, it sounds like to me, at least, 0:06:59.276 --> 0:07:03.116 I'm doubling down on reinforcing my privilege. Like I do 0:07:03.156 --> 0:07:06.796 it because there's a value in being honest about these things. 0:07:06.956 --> 0:07:08.916 And that was the part which I found inspiring. You know, 0:07:08.916 --> 0:07:11.436 you're sort of view of like, just say the truth regardless, 0:07:11.676 --> 0:07:14.396 but sometimes if you say a truth in the context 0:07:14.436 --> 0:07:16.436 where people want you to say, it actually a little bit, 0:07:17.276 --> 0:07:20.036 and then you listen to yourself, you can realize I'm 0:07:20.036 --> 0:07:22.436 actually doing the exact opposite of what the whole check 0:07:22.436 --> 0:07:24.676 your privilege is supposed to do, because in principle, it's 0:07:24.716 --> 0:07:28.996 supposed to be somewhat equalizing, and in fact, I experience 0:07:29.036 --> 0:07:30.636 it is having the opposite effect, Like I think I'm 0:07:30.636 --> 0:07:34.676 making myself less equal. When I start, you know, listening 0:07:34.716 --> 0:07:37.636 the ways in which I've been fortunate in privilege, I start, 0:07:37.916 --> 0:07:40.716 I'm like, Wow, that guy really sounds horrible, Like he 0:07:40.756 --> 0:07:42.316 sounds like he's really trying to like beat it into 0:07:42.396 --> 0:07:45.876 your head. Yeah. I said recently that it feels like 0:07:45.876 --> 0:07:48.836 its own status symbol, like I do this, and I 0:07:48.876 --> 0:07:50.956 do this, and I have a lot of privilege, and like, 0:07:51.036 --> 0:07:53.996 the more you say it, the more you're kind of emphasizing, 0:07:54.396 --> 0:07:57.676 let see what I got that you don't have. Yeah, 0:07:57.796 --> 0:08:01.156 I agree with you. It's not a phrase that I used. 0:08:01.196 --> 0:08:03.596 And even our idea of using privilege is the way 0:08:03.636 --> 0:08:05.756 that we solve this is silly because we know that 0:08:05.796 --> 0:08:08.156 in a few years we're throwing this away. It's going 0:08:08.236 --> 0:08:09.876 to be the next thing that we say, Oh wait, 0:08:09.916 --> 0:08:12.596 actually privilege was a problematic word, and so we'll move 0:08:12.596 --> 0:08:14.636 on to this one. It's it's an evolution, and we 0:08:14.676 --> 0:08:17.356 want the words and the ideas to fix everything right 0:08:17.356 --> 0:08:19.756 now so that we can really go back to our privilege. 0:08:19.796 --> 0:08:22.036 So I try not to get too deeply invested in 0:08:22.076 --> 0:08:24.836 the language that we're using, stating what you are is 0:08:24.876 --> 0:08:28.276 not working on it even when I do it. When 0:08:28.276 --> 0:08:32.436 you started writing the book and you hit on at 0:08:32.516 --> 0:08:34.836 some point presumably in the writing process, that you were 0:08:34.836 --> 0:08:37.356 going to do to yourself as it were what you 0:08:37.436 --> 0:08:39.516 had done onto others. Yes, you know that's in some 0:08:39.556 --> 0:08:42.596 way what this book is an exercise in. You've mentioned 0:08:42.596 --> 0:08:44.676 a few times that you thought of it as engaging 0:08:44.716 --> 0:08:46.996 with the ego. I've also heard you say this in 0:08:46.996 --> 0:08:48.916 a few other interviews that you've given that I've listened to. 0:08:49.556 --> 0:08:52.756 You've referred to the online persona, the Jilli's Black persona 0:08:52.796 --> 0:08:55.196 as having a lot of quote unquote ego in it. 0:08:55.196 --> 0:08:59.156 Your word, and it made me wonder, do you mean 0:08:59.156 --> 0:09:01.436 to hint sort of that the persona in the book 0:09:01.516 --> 0:09:04.316 is sort of the super ego, you know? And then 0:09:04.596 --> 0:09:06.476 I don't know where the it fits into this exactly, 0:09:06.636 --> 0:09:09.116 but you know it is playing a big role because 0:09:09.436 --> 0:09:12.076 the way that the your persona in a way was 0:09:12.116 --> 0:09:14.916 able to succeed just by saying stuff that everyone thinks 0:09:14.916 --> 0:09:16.796 that no one says. And that's what it is all about, right, 0:09:16.836 --> 0:09:19.396 It is all about doing the thing that you kind 0:09:19.396 --> 0:09:21.516 of want to do. That everyone's telling you not to 0:09:21.556 --> 0:09:23.636 do and then you just do it and it works. 0:09:23.796 --> 0:09:26.716 So I was wondering if any of that was in play, 0:09:26.756 --> 0:09:30.676 that kind of psychoanalytic troika was in play, or whether 0:09:30.956 --> 0:09:32.916 you were using you go in a different, maybe more 0:09:32.996 --> 0:09:36.876 vernacular way. I am using it in a more vernacular way. 0:09:36.916 --> 0:09:38.716 But I think the way that you've described it as 0:09:38.716 --> 0:09:42.076 also true. I think it's not just what I was saying. 0:09:42.116 --> 0:09:43.436 I think it was also the way that I was 0:09:43.436 --> 0:09:48.036 saying it, which was self righteously, which was doing it, 0:09:48.316 --> 0:09:50.276 you know, in a way that the drama that I 0:09:50.276 --> 0:09:52.916 had taken for many years allowed me to do it. 0:09:52.996 --> 0:09:57.716 There was I was sort of I mean, I knew 0:09:57.876 --> 0:10:01.156 that it could work, you know. So it's not like 0:10:01.196 --> 0:10:03.196 I just fell into it and I hoped that it 0:10:03.276 --> 0:10:06.676 would because I'm so noble. I also felt like if 0:10:06.756 --> 0:10:09.436 I were at that time smart enough to get this 0:10:09.476 --> 0:10:12.436 stuff out, it would be so universal that everybody would 0:10:12.436 --> 0:10:15.956 love it. That also wasn't true. But yeah, the super 0:10:16.036 --> 0:10:19.156 ego there, setting out to write this book and doing 0:10:19.316 --> 0:10:22.036 unto myself is as I was doing on others, is 0:10:22.036 --> 0:10:24.836 a great description of it. And I don't I don't 0:10:24.836 --> 0:10:27.836 know that I need to label it anything other than 0:10:28.036 --> 0:10:31.076 the attempt to do that that seems beautiful enough for me. 0:10:31.636 --> 0:10:34.676 Why does nobody do this? I mean, why does nobody 0:10:35.116 --> 0:10:39.476 do unto themselves what they do unto others. It's so 0:10:39.676 --> 0:10:44.596 powerful and it's so honest, and it must, in some 0:10:44.676 --> 0:10:49.676 ways feel like incredibly liberating, self liberating. Is it just 0:10:49.676 --> 0:10:52.636 that we're all scared of what will happen of, you know, 0:10:52.716 --> 0:10:56.316 like laying ourselves bear? What enabled you to do it? 0:10:57.676 --> 0:11:01.116 What enabled me to do it was an accountability from 0:11:01.276 --> 0:11:05.356 people that I trusted, who saw me as unhappy and 0:11:05.356 --> 0:11:08.196 we're willing to disagree with me. People that I really 0:11:08.236 --> 0:11:11.436 cared about, like my mother, who eventually was like, how 0:11:11.476 --> 0:11:13.676 do you feel saying all of the stuff about white 0:11:13.716 --> 0:11:16.796 people online? And you know, and of course it comes 0:11:16.836 --> 0:11:20.356 with like blocking people, ignoring people, telling them all all 0:11:20.396 --> 0:11:26.676 of the things that go along with social media. It's again, 0:11:27.876 --> 0:11:31.996 I just I got exhausted, you know, and I couldn't 0:11:31.996 --> 0:11:35.556 be myself, which is also exhausting. So I was hiding 0:11:36.116 --> 0:11:39.636 all of this other stuff about myself, identity wise, maybe 0:11:39.676 --> 0:11:42.596 even privilege wise, things that were really happening in the 0:11:42.676 --> 0:11:44.956 rooms that I described. I was hiding all of it, 0:11:45.156 --> 0:11:48.916 and that is very tiring, and so I derive a 0:11:48.916 --> 0:11:52.436 lot of pleasure from getting to finally say, Okay, here's 0:11:52.476 --> 0:11:55.196 what was going on behind the scene. So it's not 0:11:55.276 --> 0:11:58.596 that it doesn't come with benefits. But I also I 0:11:58.636 --> 0:12:00.356 don't think that most people have to I think we're 0:12:00.356 --> 0:12:03.996 fine with the persona, so you know, all right, maybe 0:12:03.996 --> 0:12:05.956 it's it's waiting for somebody to go first. And I 0:12:05.956 --> 0:12:08.196 don't think I'm the first one to do this kind 0:12:08.236 --> 0:12:11.476 of work. I think I'm amongst the first to do 0:12:11.516 --> 0:12:14.036 it from the position that I held on the Internet. 0:12:14.676 --> 0:12:17.076 I want to ask you about blocking, which I've heard 0:12:17.076 --> 0:12:19.996 you referred to just now and other times. And I 0:12:20.076 --> 0:12:22.516 was actually listening to in preparation for our conversation, I 0:12:22.556 --> 0:12:24.556 was listening to a podcast interview that you had given, 0:12:24.996 --> 0:12:28.236 and you talked about how you had a tendency, you know, 0:12:28.276 --> 0:12:32.156 if someone was questioning what you were doing, you blocked them, 0:12:32.156 --> 0:12:35.356 and it made me immediately want to ask you. Blocking 0:12:35.436 --> 0:12:37.516 is like some new thing, right, it's a product of 0:12:37.556 --> 0:12:40.636 social media. Before social media, we didn't have even the 0:12:40.676 --> 0:12:44.516 concept really of blocking in this way. Is there a 0:12:44.556 --> 0:12:48.316 special pleasure, human pleasure in the act of blocking, Like 0:12:48.356 --> 0:12:49.796 did we like, do we need a German word to 0:12:50.036 --> 0:12:52.916 describe that you need human pleasure? I think we always 0:12:52.996 --> 0:12:55.836 need a German word to describe anything, first of all. 0:12:55.876 --> 0:13:00.276 But I'd only blocked in the beginning. It was what 0:13:00.396 --> 0:13:03.556 people did, and I did what people did, but I 0:13:03.596 --> 0:13:06.316 didn't get enough pleasure out of that because then they 0:13:06.316 --> 0:13:09.956 were gone. So eventually what I like to do is engage. 0:13:10.076 --> 0:13:13.356 I'd like to screenshot it for my audience. So that 0:13:13.476 --> 0:13:16.476 was step two, which was a lot of fun. Then 0:13:16.516 --> 0:13:19.916 I was like, hey, chill, this is ridiculous and why 0:13:19.956 --> 0:13:21.916 are you doing this and who are you performing for? 0:13:22.196 --> 0:13:25.996 And so then I started engaging in the direct messages 0:13:26.116 --> 0:13:29.676 with people. Again I derived pleasure from that also because 0:13:29.716 --> 0:13:31.956 I got to use my brain to figure out why 0:13:31.956 --> 0:13:35.876 they were the way that they were. So, you know, blocking, Yeah, 0:13:35.916 --> 0:13:39.916 it's new, and these days I find it to be 0:13:39.996 --> 0:13:43.476 very performative because people don't block in silence. They tell 0:13:43.596 --> 0:13:46.396 us that they're going to do it, or they warn 0:13:46.636 --> 0:13:48.876 us that they will. You know, I've seen a lot 0:13:48.916 --> 0:13:51.436 of things go online where here's an example of who 0:13:51.516 --> 0:13:53.956 you don't want to be. Don't be this guy because 0:13:53.956 --> 0:13:56.516 I told him off and then I blocked him. So 0:13:56.796 --> 0:13:58.796 you know, it seems pretty performative, and I think it's 0:13:58.796 --> 0:14:00.796 something we wish that we could do in real life. 0:14:00.796 --> 0:14:02.476 But we only wish that we could do it in 0:14:02.476 --> 0:14:05.636 real life because we've been doing it on social media. Probably, 0:14:05.756 --> 0:14:08.196 But you've just say super suggestive, and it's something I've 0:14:08.196 --> 0:14:13.476 actually wondered about. Whether our impulse to block people in 0:14:13.596 --> 0:14:17.996 other formats in life might be derivative of the technology 0:14:18.036 --> 0:14:20.756 in a way, right, Like, until arguably, until you could 0:14:21.316 --> 0:14:26.516 block somebody as a technological matter, yes, you wouldn't think 0:14:26.676 --> 0:14:30.716 of trying to block them at a that's a grander level. 0:14:30.876 --> 0:14:32.756 You might think other things, I want to boycott them, 0:14:32.956 --> 0:14:34.636 or you know, I don't want to ever hear their 0:14:34.716 --> 0:14:37.076 names again. But then I wonder if you think that 0:14:37.116 --> 0:14:40.596 there is some connection between our impulse collective impulse it's 0:14:40.636 --> 0:14:43.196 right left center, it's everybody to sort of, you know, 0:14:43.276 --> 0:14:45.356 silence people who are different from from we are in 0:14:45.396 --> 0:14:51.356 this moment, and the actually technological capacity to block somebody, 0:14:51.396 --> 0:14:54.116 Like did the person who invented the blocking button actually 0:14:54.156 --> 0:14:56.036 have a bigger social impact than the person who invented 0:14:56.036 --> 0:14:59.436 the like button? Oh? Great, I can't answer this question, 0:14:59.436 --> 0:15:01.956 but I hope that you find a guest who can't 0:15:01.996 --> 0:15:05.876 because I'm going to be listening. It seems impactful, and 0:15:05.956 --> 0:15:08.676 of course you know it's hard to remove it from 0:15:08.756 --> 0:15:11.836 cancer culture or whatever we're calling it today. That feels 0:15:11.876 --> 0:15:15.636 better for us, but I think that it does feel 0:15:16.276 --> 0:15:20.276 increasingly more threatening that we can block people in this way. 0:15:20.436 --> 0:15:22.876 And I will not say threatening in my identities or 0:15:22.956 --> 0:15:25.596 the society and how I'm treated. I just mean me 0:15:25.756 --> 0:15:27.876 the human who showed up to this planet to do 0:15:27.956 --> 0:15:29.836 some work and is now like, do I get to 0:15:29.916 --> 0:15:32.436 do that within the confines of these rules of the 0:15:32.436 --> 0:15:36.276 inorganic society? And I think we all have that human desire. 0:15:36.356 --> 0:15:38.756 So when people say they're scared of cancel culture, maybe 0:15:38.756 --> 0:15:41.316 we should get more specific and say, do I get 0:15:41.356 --> 0:15:43.276 to be a full human here as long as this 0:15:43.636 --> 0:15:45.676 thing exists? Not to say that I didn't make a 0:15:45.716 --> 0:15:47.796 mistake or do something wrong, but do I get to recover, 0:15:47.916 --> 0:15:52.476 bounce back? Do I continue having, you know, a human experience? 0:15:52.996 --> 0:15:55.516 Do I get to learn? I don't know. So it 0:15:55.556 --> 0:16:09.596 does seem to be intensifying. We'll be right back. One 0:16:09.636 --> 0:16:12.156 of the phrases, Jill, that you use a lot that 0:16:12.196 --> 0:16:15.036 I'm really interested in is being in the rooms or 0:16:15.036 --> 0:16:17.556 in these rooms. And actually, the first time I heard 0:16:17.596 --> 0:16:19.916 you say it, I was like, huh, Like, isn't that 0:16:19.956 --> 0:16:23.196 an AA phrase? You know, the A people talk about 0:16:23.236 --> 0:16:24.876 the rooms as sort of you know, the places where 0:16:24.876 --> 0:16:27.516 the conversation happens. You're not using it that way. You're 0:16:27.556 --> 0:16:30.036 more using it in the like lin Manuel Miranda, you 0:16:30.036 --> 0:16:33.196 know the room where it happens kind of a space 0:16:33.756 --> 0:16:37.836 where certain elites have a certain kind of conversation and 0:16:37.996 --> 0:16:42.156 engage in a certain kind of social performance with each other. First, 0:16:42.196 --> 0:16:43.676 I guess I want to know if I am hearing 0:16:43.756 --> 0:16:46.676 you correctly when you use that formulation, and then I'm 0:16:46.756 --> 0:16:51.516 really curious about why that is a subject of interest 0:16:51.556 --> 0:16:53.716 to you you. It's a subject of total fascination to me 0:16:53.756 --> 0:16:55.556 and it always has been, although I've never used that 0:16:55.596 --> 0:16:58.356 particular phrase for it. It's sort of why this podcast 0:16:58.436 --> 0:17:00.516 is called Deep Background, because I was interested in trying 0:17:00.556 --> 0:17:03.516 to ask people about what happens in spaces of power 0:17:04.076 --> 0:17:07.636 where the general public isn't allowed in, and then asking 0:17:07.676 --> 0:17:10.116 people to say something about what's going on behind there. 0:17:10.636 --> 0:17:12.236 But I want to know sort of am I getting you, 0:17:12.276 --> 0:17:14.876 and also why you're so interested in that. Then we 0:17:14.876 --> 0:17:18.076 can talk about what happens in the rooms. Yes, you 0:17:18.116 --> 0:17:21.596 are getting me. However, you and I go into different rooms, 0:17:21.596 --> 0:17:25.636 and we go into them differently. So as a black 0:17:25.756 --> 0:17:27.836 queer woman going into the room, I have a lot 0:17:27.916 --> 0:17:30.756 more on the line than you do, and my conversations 0:17:30.756 --> 0:17:33.356 are different because I should know better. And the truth 0:17:33.516 --> 0:17:36.396 is is if your group got to the place where 0:17:36.396 --> 0:17:38.196 you keep saying you hope they get you wouldn't be 0:17:38.196 --> 0:17:40.436 in the room anymore. And I don't see anybody giving 0:17:40.476 --> 0:17:45.996 up any money, any vacations, any magazine covers anything, any homes. 0:17:46.036 --> 0:17:48.316 But you should know better because you're part of the 0:17:48.356 --> 0:17:52.596 group that you're saying is experiencing the greatest harm that's 0:17:52.596 --> 0:17:56.116 out there. And so the steaks aren't as high, you know, 0:17:56.156 --> 0:17:59.196 But if you had those steaks on your shoulders going 0:17:59.236 --> 0:18:01.756 into the room, how could you ever forget It's not 0:18:01.836 --> 0:18:07.156 just you know, toasting with whoever else is there. But 0:18:07.516 --> 0:18:10.596 I do see that there is a conflict. There is 0:18:10.676 --> 0:18:12.636 some kind of conflict, and we at least need to 0:18:12.676 --> 0:18:14.996 talk about the conflict of But how could you be 0:18:15.116 --> 0:18:19.356 you without them? So what I hear you saying, and 0:18:19.356 --> 0:18:22.516 I'm fascinated by this and I'm learning a lot from it, 0:18:22.516 --> 0:18:28.036 sounds like it imposes an incredibly high standard on yourself 0:18:28.356 --> 0:18:32.356 and anyone else who would say, look, because of who 0:18:32.436 --> 0:18:34.796 I am, I am supposed to be, and I am 0:18:34.796 --> 0:18:40.916 profoundly aware of the demand for equality, the problematics of privilege. Right. 0:18:40.956 --> 0:18:42.436 I'm in the room, as you're saying, as a black 0:18:42.476 --> 0:18:46.596 queer woman. And yet if I really took that seriously, 0:18:46.596 --> 0:18:48.796 there would be no rooms. Right, And I hear you 0:18:48.876 --> 0:18:50.716 loud and clear and as a kind of calling bullshit. 0:18:50.716 --> 0:18:54.956 It's incredibly powerful. But it also imposes, by implication, like 0:18:54.996 --> 0:19:00.276 a higher standard on the intersectional representative person that it 0:19:00.356 --> 0:19:04.076 imposes on anybody else. But I'm talking about the people 0:19:04.076 --> 0:19:06.076 who are like me. Is it a high standard? I 0:19:06.076 --> 0:19:08.276 do have a high standard now in my real life. 0:19:08.276 --> 0:19:11.156 What I'm going to say is I just wish we 0:19:11.156 --> 0:19:13.476 would say the truth if you want to be in there. 0:19:13.516 --> 0:19:16.156 Because I wrote the book. I wrote the book, I 0:19:16.156 --> 0:19:19.436 wrote the book proposal, I have an editor and agent. 0:19:19.636 --> 0:19:21.756 All of that. I'm trying to sell it right now. 0:19:21.756 --> 0:19:25.036 So all of that is me. Okay, that is happening 0:19:25.036 --> 0:19:27.396 to me. I'm doing this interview right now. This to me, 0:19:27.876 --> 0:19:29.876 I thought of that before I said I want to evolue. 0:19:30.036 --> 0:19:32.516 It's like, you know, now I'm clearly part of the 0:19:32.596 --> 0:19:34.916 system too. And I was like, all right, well that's true. 0:19:34.916 --> 0:19:37.796 It's hard to avoid that, right, that would be bullshit. 0:19:37.956 --> 0:19:39.796 But I think what I'm seeing is I find that 0:19:39.836 --> 0:19:42.996 it's dangerous for us to not say that this is 0:19:43.036 --> 0:19:46.316 what's happening, because then it imposes the higher standard on 0:19:46.596 --> 0:19:49.436 people where it's like, oh, but keep lying and saying 0:19:49.436 --> 0:19:51.516 that we're this moral and this nobel whatever, And I'm 0:19:51.556 --> 0:19:54.596 looking to free people from the idea that you aren't 0:19:54.916 --> 0:19:57.316 more complex than this, that it's just like we're going 0:19:57.396 --> 0:19:59.356 to save the world. And also I'm in this room 0:19:59.356 --> 0:20:01.916 just so lie about it. I just don't want you 0:20:01.956 --> 0:20:04.916 to lie about it, because then we keep trying for 0:20:05.036 --> 0:20:08.596 something that doesn't really exist as opposed to something that does. 0:20:09.196 --> 0:20:12.236 Will be complicit. You will, if you want these things here, 0:20:12.236 --> 0:20:14.316 you will be complicit. What does that look like for you? 0:20:14.516 --> 0:20:16.836 It's the same as starting this off by saying I 0:20:16.916 --> 0:20:19.756 engage with a million things every day that make me 0:20:19.996 --> 0:20:22.436 just as complicit as anybody else. But if I get 0:20:22.716 --> 0:20:25.436 a get out of jail free card for myself based 0:20:25.476 --> 0:20:27.996 on identities, when I know that I know better that 0:20:28.036 --> 0:20:30.076 doesn't make any sense. If you're just giving that to 0:20:30.076 --> 0:20:32.156 me because you feel sorry that I have identities that 0:20:32.196 --> 0:20:35.396 are harmed in again, inorganic society, then don't give it 0:20:35.396 --> 0:20:37.276 to me at all. I am a human being. I 0:20:37.316 --> 0:20:41.036 have enough intellect to say, oh, I'm being indulgent, or 0:20:41.036 --> 0:20:43.516 oh I don't care about anybody else. So it's like 0:20:44.076 --> 0:20:46.356 I do know better sometimes, and I trust that other 0:20:46.356 --> 0:20:48.756 people know better more than they're saying, because I'm also 0:20:48.836 --> 0:20:51.676 having those private conversations with them. You can go and 0:20:52.116 --> 0:20:55.276 talk about this person who doesn't agree with you politically, 0:20:55.796 --> 0:20:59.396 but you don't agree with you politically, so you know, 0:20:59.516 --> 0:21:01.636 I think there is a self righteousness that I practice 0:21:01.676 --> 0:21:05.796 online that yes, I am trying to remedy in society 0:21:05.796 --> 0:21:08.276 because I contribute it to that. And so this first 0:21:08.276 --> 0:21:11.756 book is really undoing part of what I have done, 0:21:11.876 --> 0:21:15.036 which is create a harder world for people to be 0:21:15.116 --> 0:21:19.156 honest about what they feel and think. There's a chapter 0:21:19.236 --> 0:21:22.916 in the book which walks through like a DM based 0:21:22.916 --> 0:21:26.076 conversation that you have with someone who's self presenting as 0:21:26.076 --> 0:21:30.836 a proud boy so a white supremacist, and not only 0:21:30.836 --> 0:21:33.876 do you give us an account of the conversation, you're like, 0:21:34.036 --> 0:21:38.636 totally empathetically engaged with him, and you make some degree 0:21:38.636 --> 0:21:43.396 of humanizing progress in which somehow it seems as though 0:21:43.396 --> 0:21:46.676