1 00:00:15,396 --> 00:00:25,076 Speaker 1: Pushkin from Pushkin Industries. This is Deep Background, the show 2 00:00:25,116 --> 00:00:28,676 Speaker 1: where we explore the stories behind the stories in the news. 3 00:00:29,236 --> 00:00:34,356 Speaker 1: I'm Noah Feldman. Today's conversation on Deep Background grew out 4 00:00:34,396 --> 00:00:37,756 Speaker 1: of an extraordinary new book that I read as part 5 00:00:37,796 --> 00:00:40,436 Speaker 1: of a project of working my way through a whole 6 00:00:40,556 --> 00:00:44,676 Speaker 1: pile of recent books of memoirs and non fiction essays. 7 00:00:45,436 --> 00:00:49,676 Speaker 1: The book is called Unfollow Me Essays on Complicity, and 8 00:00:49,796 --> 00:00:55,156 Speaker 1: it's by a remarkable intellectual called Jill Louise Buzby. Jill 9 00:00:55,436 --> 00:00:59,116 Speaker 1: had worked for years in the nonprofit sector focusing on 10 00:00:59,276 --> 00:01:05,156 Speaker 1: diversity and inclusion when she uploaded a short and powerful 11 00:01:05,396 --> 00:01:10,076 Speaker 1: video in which she called out white liberal progressives and 12 00:01:10,316 --> 00:01:14,956 Speaker 1: the corporate nonprofit machine in which she had been a participant. 13 00:01:15,956 --> 00:01:18,876 Speaker 1: The video went viral, and it helped turn her into 14 00:01:18,956 --> 00:01:22,836 Speaker 1: an Instagram influencer using the screen name Jill is Black. 15 00:01:23,396 --> 00:01:26,596 Speaker 1: In the years that followed, Jill became a widely recognized 16 00:01:26,676 --> 00:01:32,636 Speaker 1: figure on social media, commenting on issues of race and identity. 17 00:01:32,756 --> 00:01:35,596 Speaker 1: In the book, what Jill does is she turns the 18 00:01:35,716 --> 00:01:41,156 Speaker 1: very same sharp knife of her incisive analysis and criticism 19 00:01:41,196 --> 00:01:46,436 Speaker 1: onto herself. The result is a book of searing honesty 20 00:01:46,716 --> 00:01:52,036 Speaker 1: and genuine self reflection about the phenomena of power, identity, 21 00:01:52,116 --> 00:01:55,236 Speaker 1: and race that are occurring in real time today and 22 00:01:55,356 --> 00:01:58,516 Speaker 1: what happens when, through her own success, she starts to 23 00:01:58,516 --> 00:02:02,356 Speaker 1: confront the possibilities of a role of power in an 24 00:02:02,396 --> 00:02:06,796 Speaker 1: infrastructure that she has been deeply committed to criticizing. I'm 25 00:02:06,836 --> 00:02:10,156 Speaker 1: thrilled that Jill agreed to come onto deep background to 26 00:02:10,196 --> 00:02:13,236 Speaker 1: talk about this amazing book, and I know you're going 27 00:02:13,276 --> 00:02:19,956 Speaker 1: to love this conversation as much as I did. Jill, 28 00:02:20,036 --> 00:02:22,636 Speaker 1: thank you so much for being here, and thank you 29 00:02:22,676 --> 00:02:28,116 Speaker 1: for your amazing book, unfollow Me Essays on Complicity, which 30 00:02:28,116 --> 00:02:30,316 Speaker 1: I just had a chance to read. I know it 31 00:02:30,396 --> 00:02:33,236 Speaker 1: just came out and it blew me away. Thank you. 32 00:02:33,956 --> 00:02:37,036 Speaker 1: I want to start by saying something that I felt 33 00:02:37,116 --> 00:02:40,756 Speaker 1: very strongly on reading the book, and that is you 34 00:02:40,796 --> 00:02:46,156 Speaker 1: have an uncanny and exquisitely honed talent for calling bullshit. 35 00:02:48,236 --> 00:02:52,436 Speaker 1: My mother would be so proud. It's definitely a family trait. 36 00:02:52,596 --> 00:02:55,956 Speaker 1: My mother growing up, she could handle almost everything except 37 00:02:55,996 --> 00:02:59,556 Speaker 1: for bullshit, so I knew that that wasn't allowed. One 38 00:02:59,556 --> 00:03:01,116 Speaker 1: of the things I want to try to do in 39 00:03:01,116 --> 00:03:04,516 Speaker 1: this interview is convey to listeners who might not have 40 00:03:04,516 --> 00:03:06,636 Speaker 1: had a chance to read the book yet, and who 41 00:03:06,716 --> 00:03:09,116 Speaker 1: might or might not have known about your online work 42 00:03:09,236 --> 00:03:13,596 Speaker 1: before the book, the layering that's in this amazing book. 43 00:03:14,276 --> 00:03:16,516 Speaker 1: And you know in the book there's this kind of 44 00:03:16,556 --> 00:03:22,076 Speaker 1: subtle process where you start calling bullshit on white people 45 00:03:22,196 --> 00:03:27,716 Speaker 1: with the dear white people mode, then you gradually start 46 00:03:27,796 --> 00:03:31,636 Speaker 1: calling bullshit on black people with the dear Black people mode. Right, 47 00:03:32,316 --> 00:03:34,796 Speaker 1: And then at some point we got to the third level, 48 00:03:35,156 --> 00:03:37,796 Speaker 1: which is in some ways the most fascinating, where you 49 00:03:37,836 --> 00:03:41,236 Speaker 1: start calling bullshit on yourself. Yes, talk a little bit 50 00:03:41,276 --> 00:03:45,596 Speaker 1: about what the experience was like for you intellectually when 51 00:03:45,636 --> 00:03:50,516 Speaker 1: you were discovering that your capacity to call bullshit drew 52 00:03:50,556 --> 00:03:55,596 Speaker 1: an audience. Right. I always think that people want more 53 00:03:55,636 --> 00:03:58,276 Speaker 1: honesty then they say, I think it makes them feel 54 00:03:58,316 --> 00:04:00,556 Speaker 1: seen in a way that is intimate. And I think 55 00:04:00,556 --> 00:04:03,036 Speaker 1: there was intimacy that I had with my audience and 56 00:04:03,076 --> 00:04:06,076 Speaker 1: trust that was built very quickly because all I really 57 00:04:06,076 --> 00:04:08,556 Speaker 1: had to do was stay consistent with saying things that 58 00:04:08,596 --> 00:04:12,036 Speaker 1: they weren't hearing elsewhere. And I think that's still something 59 00:04:12,116 --> 00:04:16,436 Speaker 1: that I get to do. It's not about intellect, I subjective. 60 00:04:16,476 --> 00:04:19,436 Speaker 1: I don't know what that really means anymore. What I 61 00:04:19,476 --> 00:04:22,476 Speaker 1: do promise is that I'm going to always be doing 62 00:04:22,516 --> 00:04:25,236 Speaker 1: the work of being honest about how I actually feel. 63 00:04:25,316 --> 00:04:28,316 Speaker 1: So I was already doing it personally with my family 64 00:04:28,396 --> 00:04:30,356 Speaker 1: or with myself. It was interesting to me and I 65 00:04:30,396 --> 00:04:33,156 Speaker 1: was very curious about myself. But then really all that 66 00:04:33,196 --> 00:04:35,476 Speaker 1: happened was I began to say it in public, and 67 00:04:35,556 --> 00:04:38,356 Speaker 1: especially as we become again more scripted and people are 68 00:04:38,396 --> 00:04:41,436 Speaker 1: scared to be themselves online. I think, you know, the 69 00:04:41,436 --> 00:04:43,796 Speaker 1: messages that I get now are like, oh, thanks for 70 00:04:43,836 --> 00:04:47,756 Speaker 1: saying the stuff that we're all thinking, and well, that 71 00:04:47,876 --> 00:04:50,956 Speaker 1: means that there is something that is happening where people 72 00:04:50,956 --> 00:04:52,996 Speaker 1: are thinking things and they are scared to show up 73 00:04:53,036 --> 00:04:55,076 Speaker 1: as themselves. And I don't think that's going to push 74 00:04:55,156 --> 00:04:58,596 Speaker 1: us towards more honesty and diversity and inclusion or anti 75 00:04:58,716 --> 00:05:01,796 Speaker 1: racism work to say, Oh, I know what to say now, 76 00:05:02,156 --> 00:05:06,196 Speaker 1: but did we really fix anything with all of these words, 77 00:05:06,196 --> 00:05:10,076 Speaker 1: all of this rhetoric. To me, No, and especially in 78 00:05:10,076 --> 00:05:11,996 Speaker 1: the style in which I was doing it, which was 79 00:05:12,076 --> 00:05:16,036 Speaker 1: one minute monologuing around. You know, I didn't really react 80 00:05:16,076 --> 00:05:18,516 Speaker 1: to headlines because that felt like it was going to 81 00:05:18,636 --> 00:05:22,716 Speaker 1: date my material. So I wasn't doing that. But I 82 00:05:22,996 --> 00:05:24,996 Speaker 1: just I got tired of it, and I started answering 83 00:05:25,036 --> 00:05:27,356 Speaker 1: my own questions, such as, if I were a white 84 00:05:27,356 --> 00:05:31,356 Speaker 1: liberal person and a scary and chaotic society where I 85 00:05:31,356 --> 00:05:33,436 Speaker 1: don't feel like I have a lot of control outside 86 00:05:33,476 --> 00:05:36,196 Speaker 1: of my identity and the idea of privilege, would I 87 00:05:36,236 --> 00:05:40,316 Speaker 1: give that up? Would I genuinely give that up? I mean, 88 00:05:40,396 --> 00:05:42,916 Speaker 1: I don't know. I see people of all identities not 89 00:05:42,996 --> 00:05:45,596 Speaker 1: giving up what they have all the time, including me, 90 00:05:45,796 --> 00:05:48,436 Speaker 1: And we were entertaining this conversation that we didn't understand 91 00:05:48,516 --> 00:05:50,996 Speaker 1: how white people could go and do all of these things, 92 00:05:51,076 --> 00:05:52,876 Speaker 1: but we do them all the time. I pick up 93 00:05:52,916 --> 00:05:55,116 Speaker 1: my phone. I don't know who that affects. I ordered 94 00:05:55,116 --> 00:05:57,516 Speaker 1: from this company. I try not to think about. We 95 00:05:57,796 --> 00:06:00,676 Speaker 1: were all doing this. So eventually it felt silly to 96 00:06:00,676 --> 00:06:02,836 Speaker 1: single out. It could be true, but it felt silly 97 00:06:02,836 --> 00:06:04,796 Speaker 1: in the work that I was doing to keep singling 98 00:06:04,796 --> 00:06:09,116 Speaker 1: out when I was doing some of the same things 99 00:06:09,196 --> 00:06:11,876 Speaker 1: without the same level of power history. Sure, but I 100 00:06:12,276 --> 00:06:15,676 Speaker 1: understood what we were doing, which is trying to be safe, 101 00:06:15,836 --> 00:06:20,076 Speaker 1: trying to avoid being the other group of people. You 102 00:06:20,076 --> 00:06:21,396 Speaker 1: can say that you want to help them, but you 103 00:06:21,436 --> 00:06:24,156 Speaker 1: never want to be them, right, and in fact, to 104 00:06:24,196 --> 00:06:26,116 Speaker 1: say you want to help somebody is to self define 105 00:06:26,156 --> 00:06:28,796 Speaker 1: as not that right to exactly. You know, one of 106 00:06:28,836 --> 00:06:33,396 Speaker 1: the things that kind I found inspiring and that I 107 00:06:33,396 --> 00:06:36,316 Speaker 1: have myself struggled with is and you just mentioned privilege, 108 00:06:36,316 --> 00:06:37,596 Speaker 1: which is what put it into my mind. And I 109 00:06:37,636 --> 00:06:39,276 Speaker 1: also was thinking this when I was reading your book. 110 00:06:39,916 --> 00:06:45,476 Speaker 1: The formulation check your privilege often translates into acknowledge your privilege. 111 00:06:46,076 --> 00:06:48,076 Speaker 1: And I happen to be someone who's had a lot 112 00:06:48,076 --> 00:06:50,956 Speaker 1: of privilege in my life on pretty much every possible dimension, 113 00:06:51,636 --> 00:06:55,236 Speaker 1: and I have noticed that when I acknowledge and speak 114 00:06:55,276 --> 00:06:58,716 Speaker 1: about those facts, it sounds like to me, at least, 115 00:06:59,276 --> 00:07:03,116 Speaker 1: I'm doubling down on reinforcing my privilege. Like I do 116 00:07:03,156 --> 00:07:06,796 Speaker 1: it because there's a value in being honest about these things. 117 00:07:06,956 --> 00:07:08,916 Speaker 1: And that was the part which I found inspiring. You know, 118 00:07:08,916 --> 00:07:11,436 Speaker 1: you're sort of view of like, just say the truth regardless, 119 00:07:11,676 --> 00:07:14,396 Speaker 1: but sometimes if you say a truth in the context 120 00:07:14,436 --> 00:07:16,436 Speaker 1: where people want you to say, it actually a little bit, 121 00:07:17,276 --> 00:07:20,036 Speaker 1: and then you listen to yourself, you can realize I'm 122 00:07:20,036 --> 00:07:22,436 Speaker 1: actually doing the exact opposite of what the whole check 123 00:07:22,436 --> 00:07:24,676 Speaker 1: your privilege is supposed to do, because in principle, it's 124 00:07:24,716 --> 00:07:28,996 Speaker 1: supposed to be somewhat equalizing, and in fact, I experience 125 00:07:29,036 --> 00:07:30,636 Speaker 1: it is having the opposite effect, Like I think I'm 126 00:07:30,636 --> 00:07:34,676 Speaker 1: making myself less equal. When I start, you know, listening 127 00:07:34,716 --> 00:07:37,636 Speaker 1: the ways in which I've been fortunate in privilege, I start, 128 00:07:37,916 --> 00:07:40,716 Speaker 1: I'm like, Wow, that guy really sounds horrible, Like he 129 00:07:40,756 --> 00:07:42,316 Speaker 1: sounds like he's really trying to like beat it into 130 00:07:42,396 --> 00:07:45,876 Speaker 1: your head. Yeah. I said recently that it feels like 131 00:07:45,876 --> 00:07:48,836 Speaker 1: its own status symbol, like I do this, and I 132 00:07:48,876 --> 00:07:50,956 Speaker 1: do this, and I have a lot of privilege, and like, 133 00:07:51,036 --> 00:07:53,996 Speaker 1: the more you say it, the more you're kind of emphasizing, 134 00:07:54,396 --> 00:07:57,676 Speaker 1: let see what I got that you don't have. Yeah, 135 00:07:57,796 --> 00:08:01,156 Speaker 1: I agree with you. It's not a phrase that I used. 136 00:08:01,196 --> 00:08:03,596 Speaker 1: And even our idea of using privilege is the way 137 00:08:03,636 --> 00:08:05,756 Speaker 1: that we solve this is silly because we know that 138 00:08:05,796 --> 00:08:08,156 Speaker 1: in a few years we're throwing this away. It's going 139 00:08:08,236 --> 00:08:09,876 Speaker 1: to be the next thing that we say, Oh wait, 140 00:08:09,916 --> 00:08:12,596 Speaker 1: actually privilege was a problematic word, and so we'll move 141 00:08:12,596 --> 00:08:14,636 Speaker 1: on to this one. It's it's an evolution, and we 142 00:08:14,676 --> 00:08:17,356 Speaker 1: want the words and the ideas to fix everything right 143 00:08:17,356 --> 00:08:19,756 Speaker 1: now so that we can really go back to our privilege. 144 00:08:19,796 --> 00:08:22,036 Speaker 1: So I try not to get too deeply invested in 145 00:08:22,076 --> 00:08:24,836 Speaker 1: the language that we're using, stating what you are is 146 00:08:24,876 --> 00:08:28,276 Speaker 1: not working on it even when I do it. When 147 00:08:28,276 --> 00:08:32,436 Speaker 1: you started writing the book and you hit on at 148 00:08:32,516 --> 00:08:34,836 Speaker 1: some point presumably in the writing process, that you were 149 00:08:34,836 --> 00:08:37,356 Speaker 1: going to do to yourself as it were what you 150 00:08:37,436 --> 00:08:39,516 Speaker 1: had done onto others. Yes, you know that's in some 151 00:08:39,556 --> 00:08:42,596 Speaker 1: way what this book is an exercise in. You've mentioned 152 00:08:42,596 --> 00:08:44,676 Speaker 1: a few times that you thought of it as engaging 153 00:08:44,716 --> 00:08:46,996 Speaker 1: with the ego. I've also heard you say this in 154 00:08:46,996 --> 00:08:48,916 Speaker 1: a few other interviews that you've given that I've listened to. 155 00:08:49,556 --> 00:08:52,756 Speaker 1: You've referred to the online persona, the Jilli's Black persona 156 00:08:52,796 --> 00:08:55,196 Speaker 1: as having a lot of quote unquote ego in it. 157 00:08:55,196 --> 00:08:59,156 Speaker 1: Your word, and it made me wonder, do you mean 158 00:08:59,156 --> 00:09:01,436 Speaker 1: to hint sort of that the persona in the book 159 00:09:01,516 --> 00:09:04,316 Speaker 1: is sort of the super ego, you know? And then 160 00:09:04,596 --> 00:09:06,476 Speaker 1: I don't know where the it fits into this exactly, 161 00:09:06,636 --> 00:09:09,116 Speaker 1: but you know it is playing a big role because 162 00:09:09,436 --> 00:09:12,076 Speaker 1: the way that the your persona in a way was 163 00:09:12,116 --> 00:09:14,916 Speaker 1: able to succeed just by saying stuff that everyone thinks 164 00:09:14,916 --> 00:09:16,796 Speaker 1: that no one says. And that's what it is all about, right, 165 00:09:16,836 --> 00:09:19,396 Speaker 1: It is all about doing the thing that you kind 166 00:09:19,396 --> 00:09:21,516 Speaker 1: of want to do. That everyone's telling you not to 167 00:09:21,556 --> 00:09:23,636 Speaker 1: do and then you just do it and it works. 168 00:09:23,796 --> 00:09:26,716 Speaker 1: So I was wondering if any of that was in play, 169 00:09:26,756 --> 00:09:30,676 Speaker 1: that kind of psychoanalytic troika was in play, or whether 170 00:09:30,956 --> 00:09:32,916 Speaker 1: you were using you go in a different, maybe more 171 00:09:32,996 --> 00:09:36,876 Speaker 1: vernacular way. I am using it in a more vernacular way. 172 00:09:36,916 --> 00:09:38,716 Speaker 1: But I think the way that you've described it as 173 00:09:38,716 --> 00:09:42,076 Speaker 1: also true. I think it's not just what I was saying. 174 00:09:42,116 --> 00:09:43,436 Speaker 1: I think it was also the way that I was 175 00:09:43,436 --> 00:09:48,036 Speaker 1: saying it, which was self righteously, which was doing it, 176 00:09:48,316 --> 00:09:50,276 Speaker 1: you know, in a way that the drama that I 177 00:09:50,276 --> 00:09:52,916 Speaker 1: had taken for many years allowed me to do it. 178 00:09:52,996 --> 00:09:57,716 Speaker 1: There was I was sort of I mean, I knew 179 00:09:57,876 --> 00:10:01,156 Speaker 1: that it could work, you know. So it's not like 180 00:10:01,196 --> 00:10:03,196 Speaker 1: I just fell into it and I hoped that it 181 00:10:03,276 --> 00:10:06,676 Speaker 1: would because I'm so noble. I also felt like if 182 00:10:06,756 --> 00:10:09,436 Speaker 1: I were at that time smart enough to get this 183 00:10:09,476 --> 00:10:12,436 Speaker 1: stuff out, it would be so universal that everybody would 184 00:10:12,436 --> 00:10:15,956 Speaker 1: love it. That also wasn't true. But yeah, the super 185 00:10:16,036 --> 00:10:19,156 Speaker 1: ego there, setting out to write this book and doing 186 00:10:19,316 --> 00:10:22,036 Speaker 1: unto myself is as I was doing on others, is 187 00:10:22,036 --> 00:10:24,836 Speaker 1: a great description of it. And I don't I don't 188 00:10:24,836 --> 00:10:27,836 Speaker 1: know that I need to label it anything other than 189 00:10:28,036 --> 00:10:31,076 Speaker 1: the attempt to do that that seems beautiful enough for me. 190 00:10:31,636 --> 00:10:34,676 Speaker 1: Why does nobody do this? I mean, why does nobody 191 00:10:35,116 --> 00:10:39,476 Speaker 1: do unto themselves what they do unto others. It's so 192 00:10:39,676 --> 00:10:44,596 Speaker 1: powerful and it's so honest, and it must, in some 193 00:10:44,676 --> 00:10:49,676 Speaker 1: ways feel like incredibly liberating, self liberating. Is it just 194 00:10:49,676 --> 00:10:52,636 Speaker 1: that we're all scared of what will happen of, you know, 195 00:10:52,716 --> 00:10:56,316 Speaker 1: like laying ourselves bear? What enabled you to do it? 196 00:10:57,676 --> 00:11:01,116 Speaker 1: What enabled me to do it was an accountability from 197 00:11:01,276 --> 00:11:05,356 Speaker 1: people that I trusted, who saw me as unhappy and 198 00:11:05,356 --> 00:11:08,196 Speaker 1: we're willing to disagree with me. People that I really 199 00:11:08,236 --> 00:11:11,436 Speaker 1: cared about, like my mother, who eventually was like, how 200 00:11:11,476 --> 00:11:13,676 Speaker 1: do you feel saying all of the stuff about white 201 00:11:13,716 --> 00:11:16,796 Speaker 1: people online? And you know, and of course it comes 202 00:11:16,836 --> 00:11:20,356 Speaker 1: with like blocking people, ignoring people, telling them all all 203 00:11:20,396 --> 00:11:26,676 Speaker 1: of the things that go along with social media. It's again, 204 00:11:27,876 --> 00:11:31,996 Speaker 1: I just I got exhausted, you know, and I couldn't 205 00:11:31,996 --> 00:11:35,556 Speaker 1: be myself, which is also exhausting. So I was hiding 206 00:11:36,116 --> 00:11:39,636 Speaker 1: all of this other stuff about myself, identity wise, maybe 207 00:11:39,676 --> 00:11:42,596 Speaker 1: even privilege wise, things that were really happening in the 208 00:11:42,676 --> 00:11:44,956 Speaker 1: rooms that I described. I was hiding all of it, 209 00:11:45,156 --> 00:11:48,916 Speaker 1: and that is very tiring, and so I derive a 210 00:11:48,916 --> 00:11:52,436 Speaker 1: lot of pleasure from getting to finally say, Okay, here's 211 00:11:52,476 --> 00:11:55,196 Speaker 1: what was going on behind the scene. So it's not 212 00:11:55,276 --> 00:11:58,596 Speaker 1: that it doesn't come with benefits. But I also I 213 00:11:58,636 --> 00:12:00,356 Speaker 1: don't think that most people have to I think we're 214 00:12:00,356 --> 00:12:03,996 Speaker 1: fine with the persona, so you know, all right, maybe 215 00:12:03,996 --> 00:12:05,956 Speaker 1: it's it's waiting for somebody to go first. And I 216 00:12:05,956 --> 00:12:08,196 Speaker 1: don't think I'm the first one to do this kind 217 00:12:08,236 --> 00:12:11,476 Speaker 1: of work. I think I'm amongst the first to do 218 00:12:11,516 --> 00:12:14,036 Speaker 1: it from the position that I held on the Internet. 219 00:12:14,676 --> 00:12:17,076 Speaker 1: I want to ask you about blocking, which I've heard 220 00:12:17,076 --> 00:12:19,996 Speaker 1: you referred to just now and other times. And I 221 00:12:20,076 --> 00:12:22,516 Speaker 1: was actually listening to in preparation for our conversation, I 222 00:12:22,556 --> 00:12:24,556 Speaker 1: was listening to a podcast interview that you had given, 223 00:12:24,996 --> 00:12:28,236 Speaker 1: and you talked about how you had a tendency, you know, 224 00:12:28,276 --> 00:12:32,156 Speaker 1: if someone was questioning what you were doing, you blocked them, 225 00:12:32,156 --> 00:12:35,356 Speaker 1: and it made me immediately want to ask you. Blocking 226 00:12:35,436 --> 00:12:37,516 Speaker 1: is like some new thing, right, it's a product of 227 00:12:37,556 --> 00:12:40,636 Speaker 1: social media. Before social media, we didn't have even the 228 00:12:40,676 --> 00:12:44,516 Speaker 1: concept really of blocking in this way. Is there a 229 00:12:44,556 --> 00:12:48,316 Speaker 1: special pleasure, human pleasure in the act of blocking, Like 230 00:12:48,356 --> 00:12:49,796 Speaker 1: did we like, do we need a German word to 231 00:12:50,036 --> 00:12:52,916 Speaker 1: describe that you need human pleasure? I think we always 232 00:12:52,996 --> 00:12:55,836 Speaker 1: need a German word to describe anything, first of all. 233 00:12:55,876 --> 00:13:00,276 Speaker 1: But I'd only blocked in the beginning. It was what 234 00:13:00,396 --> 00:13:03,556 Speaker 1: people did, and I did what people did, but I 235 00:13:03,596 --> 00:13:06,316 Speaker 1: didn't get enough pleasure out of that because then they 236 00:13:06,316 --> 00:13:09,956 Speaker 1: were gone. So eventually what I like to do is engage. 237 00:13:10,076 --> 00:13:13,356 Speaker 1: I'd like to screenshot it for my audience. So that 238 00:13:13,476 --> 00:13:16,476 Speaker 1: was step two, which was a lot of fun. Then 239 00:13:16,516 --> 00:13:19,916 Speaker 1: I was like, hey, chill, this is ridiculous and why 240 00:13:19,956 --> 00:13:21,916 Speaker 1: are you doing this and who are you performing for? 241 00:13:22,196 --> 00:13:25,996 Speaker 1: And so then I started engaging in the direct messages 242 00:13:26,116 --> 00:13:29,676 Speaker 1: with people. Again I derived pleasure from that also because 243 00:13:29,716 --> 00:13:31,956 Speaker 1: I got to use my brain to figure out why 244 00:13:31,956 --> 00:13:35,876 Speaker 1: they were the way that they were. So, you know, blocking, Yeah, 245 00:13:35,916 --> 00:13:39,916 Speaker 1: it's new, and these days I find it to be 246 00:13:39,996 --> 00:13:43,476 Speaker 1: very performative because people don't block in silence. They tell 247 00:13:43,596 --> 00:13:46,396 Speaker 1: us that they're going to do it, or they warn 248 00:13:46,636 --> 00:13:48,876 Speaker 1: us that they will. You know, I've seen a lot 249 00:13:48,916 --> 00:13:51,436 Speaker 1: of things go online where here's an example of who 250 00:13:51,516 --> 00:13:53,956 Speaker 1: you don't want to be. Don't be this guy because 251 00:13:53,956 --> 00:13:56,516 Speaker 1: I told him off and then I blocked him. So 252 00:13:56,796 --> 00:13:58,796 Speaker 1: you know, it seems pretty performative, and I think it's 253 00:13:58,796 --> 00:14:00,796 Speaker 1: something we wish that we could do in real life. 254 00:14:00,796 --> 00:14:02,476 Speaker 1: But we only wish that we could do it in 255 00:14:02,476 --> 00:14:05,636 Speaker 1: real life because we've been doing it on social media. Probably, 256 00:14:05,756 --> 00:14:08,196 Speaker 1: But you've just say super suggestive, and it's something I've 257 00:14:08,196 --> 00:14:13,476 Speaker 1: actually wondered about. Whether our impulse to block people in 258 00:14:13,596 --> 00:14:17,996 Speaker 1: other formats in life might be derivative of the technology 259 00:14:18,036 --> 00:14:20,756 Speaker 1: in a way, right, Like, until arguably, until you could 260 00:14:21,316 --> 00:14:26,516 Speaker 1: block somebody as a technological matter, yes, you wouldn't think 261 00:14:26,676 --> 00:14:30,716 Speaker 1: of trying to block them at a that's a grander level. 262 00:14:30,876 --> 00:14:32,756 Speaker 1: You might think other things, I want to boycott them, 263 00:14:32,956 --> 00:14:34,636 Speaker 1: or you know, I don't want to ever hear their 264 00:14:34,716 --> 00:14:37,076 Speaker 1: names again. But then I wonder if you think that 265 00:14:37,116 --> 00:14:40,596 Speaker 1: there is some connection between our impulse collective impulse it's 266 00:14:40,636 --> 00:14:43,196 Speaker 1: right left center, it's everybody to sort of, you know, 267 00:14:43,276 --> 00:14:45,356 Speaker 1: silence people who are different from from we are in 268 00:14:45,396 --> 00:14:51,356 Speaker 1: this moment, and the actually technological capacity to block somebody, 269 00:14:51,396 --> 00:14:54,116 Speaker 1: Like did the person who invented the blocking button actually 270 00:14:54,156 --> 00:14:56,036 Speaker 1: have a bigger social impact than the person who invented 271 00:14:56,036 --> 00:14:59,436 Speaker 1: the like button? Oh? Great, I can't answer this question, 272 00:14:59,436 --> 00:15:01,956 Speaker 1: but I hope that you find a guest who can't 273 00:15:01,996 --> 00:15:05,876 Speaker 1: because I'm going to be listening. It seems impactful, and 274 00:15:05,956 --> 00:15:08,676 Speaker 1: of course you know it's hard to remove it from 275 00:15:08,756 --> 00:15:11,836 Speaker 1: cancer culture or whatever we're calling it today. That feels 276 00:15:11,876 --> 00:15:15,636 Speaker 1: better for us, but I think that it does feel 277 00:15:16,276 --> 00:15:20,276 Speaker 1: increasingly more threatening that we can block people in this way. 278 00:15:20,436 --> 00:15:22,876 Speaker 1: And I will not say threatening in my identities or 279 00:15:22,956 --> 00:15:25,596 Speaker 1: the society and how I'm treated. I just mean me 280 00:15:25,756 --> 00:15:27,876 Speaker 1: the human who showed up to this planet to do 281 00:15:27,956 --> 00:15:29,836 Speaker 1: some work and is now like, do I get to 282 00:15:29,916 --> 00:15:32,436 Speaker 1: do that within the confines of these rules of the 283 00:15:32,436 --> 00:15:36,276 Speaker 1: inorganic society? And I think we all have that human desire. 284 00:15:36,356 --> 00:15:38,756 Speaker 1: So when people say they're scared of cancel culture, maybe 285 00:15:38,756 --> 00:15:41,316 Speaker 1: we should get more specific and say, do I get 286 00:15:41,356 --> 00:15:43,276 Speaker 1: to be a full human here as long as this 287 00:15:43,636 --> 00:15:45,676 Speaker 1: thing exists? Not to say that I didn't make a 288 00:15:45,716 --> 00:15:47,796 Speaker 1: mistake or do something wrong, but do I get to recover, 289 00:15:47,916 --> 00:15:52,476 Speaker 1: bounce back? Do I continue having, you know, a human experience? 290 00:15:52,996 --> 00:15:55,516 Speaker 1: Do I get to learn? I don't know. So it 291 00:15:55,556 --> 00:16:09,596 Speaker 1: does seem to be intensifying. We'll be right back. One 292 00:16:09,636 --> 00:16:12,156 Speaker 1: of the phrases, Jill, that you use a lot that 293 00:16:12,196 --> 00:16:15,036 Speaker 1: I'm really interested in is being in the rooms or 294 00:16:15,036 --> 00:16:17,556 Speaker 1: in these rooms. And actually, the first time I heard 295 00:16:17,596 --> 00:16:19,916 Speaker 1: you say it, I was like, huh, Like, isn't that 296 00:16:19,956 --> 00:16:23,196 Speaker 1: an AA phrase? You know, the A people talk about 297 00:16:23,236 --> 00:16:24,876 Speaker 1: the rooms as sort of you know, the places where 298 00:16:24,876 --> 00:16:27,516 Speaker 1: the conversation happens. You're not using it that way. You're 299 00:16:27,556 --> 00:16:30,036 Speaker 1: more using it in the like lin Manuel Miranda, you 300 00:16:30,036 --> 00:16:33,196 Speaker 1: know the room where it happens kind of a space 301 00:16:33,756 --> 00:16:37,836 Speaker 1: where certain elites have a certain kind of conversation and 302 00:16:37,996 --> 00:16:42,156 Speaker 1: engage in a certain kind of social performance with each other. First, 303 00:16:42,196 --> 00:16:43,676 Speaker 1: I guess I want to know if I am hearing 304 00:16:43,756 --> 00:16:46,676 Speaker 1: you correctly when you use that formulation, and then I'm 305 00:16:46,756 --> 00:16:51,516 Speaker 1: really curious about why that is a subject of interest 306 00:16:51,556 --> 00:16:53,716 Speaker 1: to you you. It's a subject of total fascination to me 307 00:16:53,756 --> 00:16:55,556 Speaker 1: and it always has been, although I've never used that 308 00:16:55,596 --> 00:16:58,356 Speaker 1: particular phrase for it. It's sort of why this podcast 309 00:16:58,436 --> 00:17:00,516 Speaker 1: is called Deep Background, because I was interested in trying 310 00:17:00,556 --> 00:17:03,516 Speaker 1: to ask people about what happens in spaces of power 311 00:17:04,076 --> 00:17:07,636 Speaker 1: where the general public isn't allowed in, and then asking 312 00:17:07,676 --> 00:17:10,116 Speaker 1: people to say something about what's going on behind there. 313 00:17:10,636 --> 00:17:12,236 Speaker 1: But I want to know sort of am I getting you, 314 00:17:12,276 --> 00:17:14,876 Speaker 1: and also why you're so interested in that. Then we 315 00:17:14,876 --> 00:17:18,076 Speaker 1: can talk about what happens in the rooms. Yes, you 316 00:17:18,116 --> 00:17:21,596 Speaker 1: are getting me. However, you and I go into different rooms, 317 00:17:21,596 --> 00:17:25,636 Speaker 1: and we go into them differently. So as a black 318 00:17:25,756 --> 00:17:27,836 Speaker 1: queer woman going into the room, I have a lot 319 00:17:27,916 --> 00:17:30,756 Speaker 1: more on the line than you do, and my conversations 320 00:17:30,756 --> 00:17:33,356 Speaker 1: are different because I should know better. And the truth 321 00:17:33,516 --> 00:17:36,396 Speaker 1: is is if your group got to the place where 322 00:17:36,396 --> 00:17:38,196 Speaker 1: you keep saying you hope they get you wouldn't be 323 00:17:38,196 --> 00:17:40,436 Speaker 1: in the room anymore. And I don't see anybody giving 324 00:17:40,476 --> 00:17:45,996 Speaker 1: up any money, any vacations, any magazine covers anything, any homes. 325 00:17:46,036 --> 00:17:48,316 Speaker 1: But you should know better because you're part of the 326 00:17:48,356 --> 00:17:52,596 Speaker 1: group that you're saying is experiencing the greatest harm that's 327 00:17:52,596 --> 00:17:56,116 Speaker 1: out there. And so the steaks aren't as high, you know, 328 00:17:56,156 --> 00:17:59,196 Speaker 1: But if you had those steaks on your shoulders going 329 00:17:59,236 --> 00:18:01,756 Speaker 1: into the room, how could you ever forget It's not 330 00:18:01,836 --> 00:18:07,156 Speaker 1: just you know, toasting with whoever else is there. But 331 00:18:07,516 --> 00:18:10,596 Speaker 1: I do see that there is a conflict. There is 332 00:18:10,676 --> 00:18:12,636 Speaker 1: some kind of conflict, and we at least need to 333 00:18:12,676 --> 00:18:14,996 Speaker 1: talk about the conflict of But how could you be 334 00:18:15,116 --> 00:18:19,356 Speaker 1: you without them? So what I hear you saying, and 335 00:18:19,356 --> 00:18:22,516 Speaker 1: I'm fascinated by this and I'm learning a lot from it, 336 00:18:22,516 --> 00:18:28,036 Speaker 1: sounds like it imposes an incredibly high standard on yourself 337 00:18:28,356 --> 00:18:32,356 Speaker 1: and anyone else who would say, look, because of who 338 00:18:32,436 --> 00:18:34,796 Speaker 1: I am, I am supposed to be, and I am 339 00:18:34,796 --> 00:18:40,916 Speaker 1: profoundly aware of the demand for equality, the problematics of privilege. Right. 340 00:18:40,956 --> 00:18:42,436 Speaker 1: I'm in the room, as you're saying, as a black 341 00:18:42,476 --> 00:18:46,596 Speaker 1: queer woman. And yet if I really took that seriously, 342 00:18:46,596 --> 00:18:48,796 Speaker 1: there would be no rooms. Right, And I hear you 343 00:18:48,876 --> 00:18:50,716 Speaker 1: loud and clear and as a kind of calling bullshit. 344 00:18:50,716 --> 00:18:54,956 Speaker 1: It's incredibly powerful. But it also imposes, by implication, like 345 00:18:54,996 --> 00:19:00,276 Speaker 1: a higher standard on the intersectional representative person that it 346 00:19:00,356 --> 00:19:04,076 Speaker 1: imposes on anybody else. But I'm talking about the people 347 00:19:04,076 --> 00:19:06,076 Speaker 1: who are like me. Is it a high standard? I 348 00:19:06,076 --> 00:19:08,276 Speaker 1: do have a high standard now in my real life. 349 00:19:08,276 --> 00:19:11,156 Speaker 1: What I'm going to say is I just wish we 350 00:19:11,156 --> 00:19:13,476 Speaker 1: would say the truth if you want to be in there. 351 00:19:13,516 --> 00:19:16,156 Speaker 1: Because I wrote the book. I wrote the book, I 352 00:19:16,156 --> 00:19:19,436 Speaker 1: wrote the book proposal, I have an editor and agent. 353 00:19:19,636 --> 00:19:21,756 Speaker 1: All of that. I'm trying to sell it right now. 354 00:19:21,756 --> 00:19:25,036 Speaker 1: So all of that is me. Okay, that is happening 355 00:19:25,036 --> 00:19:27,396 Speaker 1: to me. I'm doing this interview right now. This to me, 356 00:19:27,876 --> 00:19:29,876 Speaker 1: I thought of that before I said I want to evolue. 357 00:19:30,036 --> 00:19:32,516 Speaker 1: It's like, you know, now I'm clearly part of the 358 00:19:32,596 --> 00:19:34,916 Speaker 1: system too. And I was like, all right, well that's true. 359 00:19:34,916 --> 00:19:37,796 Speaker 1: It's hard to avoid that, right, that would be bullshit. 360 00:19:37,956 --> 00:19:39,796 Speaker 1: But I think what I'm seeing is I find that 361 00:19:39,836 --> 00:19:42,996 Speaker 1: it's dangerous for us to not say that this is 362 00:19:43,036 --> 00:19:46,316 Speaker 1: what's happening, because then it imposes the higher standard on 363 00:19:46,596 --> 00:19:49,436 Speaker 1: people where it's like, oh, but keep lying and saying 364 00:19:49,436 --> 00:19:51,516 Speaker 1: that we're this moral and this nobel whatever, And I'm 365 00:19:51,556 --> 00:19:54,596 Speaker 1: looking to free people from the idea that you aren't 366 00:19:54,916 --> 00:19:57,316 Speaker 1: more complex than this, that it's just like we're going 367 00:19:57,396 --> 00:19:59,356 Speaker 1: to save the world. And also I'm in this room 368 00:19:59,356 --> 00:20:01,916 Speaker 1: just so lie about it. I just don't want you 369 00:20:01,956 --> 00:20:04,916 Speaker 1: to lie about it, because then we keep trying for 370 00:20:05,036 --> 00:20:08,596 Speaker 1: something that doesn't really exist as opposed to something that does. 371 00:20:09,196 --> 00:20:12,236 Speaker 1: Will be complicit. You will, if you want these things here, 372 00:20:12,236 --> 00:20:14,316 Speaker 1: you will be complicit. What does that look like for you? 373 00:20:14,516 --> 00:20:16,836 Speaker 1: It's the same as starting this off by saying I 374 00:20:16,916 --> 00:20:19,756 Speaker 1: engage with a million things every day that make me 375 00:20:19,996 --> 00:20:22,436 Speaker 1: just as complicit as anybody else. But if I get 376 00:20:22,716 --> 00:20:25,436 Speaker 1: a get out of jail free card for myself based 377 00:20:25,476 --> 00:20:27,996 Speaker 1: on identities, when I know that I know better that 378 00:20:28,036 --> 00:20:30,076 Speaker 1: doesn't make any sense. If you're just giving that to 379 00:20:30,076 --> 00:20:32,156 Speaker 1: me because you feel sorry that I have identities that 380 00:20:32,196 --> 00:20:35,396 Speaker 1: are harmed in again, inorganic society, then don't give it 381 00:20:35,396 --> 00:20:37,276 Speaker 1: to me at all. I am a human being. I 382 00:20:37,316 --> 00:20:41,036 Speaker 1: have enough intellect to say, oh, I'm being indulgent, or 383 00:20:41,036 --> 00:20:43,516 Speaker 1: oh I don't care about anybody else. So it's like 384 00:20:44,076 --> 00:20:46,356 Speaker 1: I do know better sometimes, and I trust that other 385 00:20:46,356 --> 00:20:48,756 Speaker 1: people know better more than they're saying, because I'm also 386 00:20:48,836 --> 00:20:51,676 Speaker 1: having those private conversations with them. You can go and 387 00:20:52,116 --> 00:20:55,276 Speaker 1: talk about this person who doesn't agree with you politically, 388 00:20:55,796 --> 00:20:59,396 Speaker 1: but you don't agree with you politically, so you know, 389 00:20:59,516 --> 00:21:01,636 Speaker 1: I think there is a self righteousness that I practice 390 00:21:01,676 --> 00:21:05,796 Speaker 1: online that yes, I am trying to remedy in society 391 00:21:05,796 --> 00:21:08,276 Speaker 1: because I contribute it to that. And so this first 392 00:21:08,276 --> 00:21:11,756 Speaker 1: book is really undoing part of what I have done, 393 00:21:11,876 --> 00:21:15,036 Speaker 1: which is create a harder world for people to be 394 00:21:15,116 --> 00:21:19,156 Speaker 1: honest about what they feel and think. There's a chapter 395 00:21:19,236 --> 00:21:22,916 Speaker 1: in the book which walks through like a DM based 396 00:21:22,916 --> 00:21:26,076 Speaker 1: conversation that you have with someone who's self presenting as 397 00:21:26,076 --> 00:21:30,836 Speaker 1: a proud boy so a white supremacist, and not only 398 00:21:30,836 --> 00:21:33,876 Speaker 1: do you give us an account of the conversation, you're like, 399 00:21:34,036 --> 00:21:38,636 Speaker 1: totally empathetically engaged with him, and you make some degree 400 00:21:38,636 --> 00:21:43,396 Speaker 1: of humanizing progress in which somehow it seems as though 401 00:21:43,396 --> 00:21:46,676 Speaker 1: it's at least possible that the two of you are 402 00:21:47,356 --> 00:21:51,196 Speaker 1: having some form of communication. Yet it also connects up 403 00:21:51,236 --> 00:21:54,236 Speaker 1: to this question of is it okay to be empathetic 404 00:21:54,236 --> 00:21:58,996 Speaker 1: to people who, at least by their persona, are reprehensible 405 00:21:59,196 --> 00:22:04,956 Speaker 1: and repugnant? Reprehensible or repugnant. Wow, when you have to 406 00:22:04,956 --> 00:22:08,316 Speaker 1: come back from that, that is really really hard. Yeah, 407 00:22:08,436 --> 00:22:13,716 Speaker 1: I am aligned with people that are reprehensible and repugnant. 408 00:22:14,796 --> 00:22:19,716 Speaker 1: So we find out about people that we believed in 409 00:22:20,396 --> 00:22:23,556 Speaker 1: every day now and we thought we were aligned with them, 410 00:22:23,556 --> 00:22:26,236 Speaker 1: and then they do this big, horrible thing and suddenly 411 00:22:26,276 --> 00:22:29,236 Speaker 1: we have to act like we were never in agreement 412 00:22:29,276 --> 00:22:30,996 Speaker 1: with it, where we never knew who they were, and 413 00:22:31,396 --> 00:22:34,876 Speaker 1: that's not working either. The truth of the matter is 414 00:22:34,956 --> 00:22:37,876 Speaker 1: is we had a conversation. It is a civil conversation. 415 00:22:38,596 --> 00:22:41,156 Speaker 1: In the chapter, by saying nope doesn't mean you can 416 00:22:41,196 --> 00:22:43,916 Speaker 1: do it all the time with everybody, or that I 417 00:22:43,956 --> 00:22:46,676 Speaker 1: have some special skill with this person the things that 418 00:22:46,716 --> 00:22:50,276 Speaker 1: are said to me reprehensible and repugnant. Sure, and he 419 00:22:50,356 --> 00:22:53,076 Speaker 1: believed them, and I believe what I believe, and there's 420 00:22:53,116 --> 00:22:56,516 Speaker 1: some stuff that I've believed that has been pretty horrible, 421 00:22:56,676 --> 00:22:59,996 Speaker 1: not as extreme, definitely, And well, I guess it's not 422 00:23:00,036 --> 00:23:03,636 Speaker 1: my job to say is dangerous, but I've believed things, 423 00:23:03,676 --> 00:23:05,836 Speaker 1: and I don't understand why we keep talking to people 424 00:23:05,876 --> 00:23:11,236 Speaker 1: who believe what they believe, Like he's going off of 425 00:23:11,276 --> 00:23:14,756 Speaker 1: his own belief system, and so all I can really 426 00:23:14,796 --> 00:23:16,796 Speaker 1: do is talk to him in a way where I 427 00:23:16,876 --> 00:23:20,676 Speaker 1: gain information. I'm obsessed with this idea of how one 428 00:23:20,716 --> 00:23:24,196 Speaker 1: talks to people who really really believe something when that 429 00:23:24,236 --> 00:23:27,676 Speaker 1: thing is wrong on some dimension, you know, factually wrong, 430 00:23:27,876 --> 00:23:29,556 Speaker 1: then how do you get people to not think of 431 00:23:29,596 --> 00:23:33,956 Speaker 1: the thing is factually wrong, morally or ethically wrong, even 432 00:23:34,036 --> 00:23:36,596 Speaker 1: esthetically wrong, like someone just has terrible taste in something 433 00:23:36,596 --> 00:23:38,836 Speaker 1: and you want to talk them out of it. And 434 00:23:38,876 --> 00:23:42,756 Speaker 1: I'm totally obsessed with this question. And I always say 435 00:23:42,796 --> 00:23:44,356 Speaker 1: when people ask me, like, well, how do you try 436 00:23:44,356 --> 00:23:45,716 Speaker 1: to do that? And I do try to do it, 437 00:23:46,156 --> 00:23:48,716 Speaker 1: I always say, well, I start by trying to figure 438 00:23:48,756 --> 00:23:52,276 Speaker 1: out what that person believes his or her big picture 439 00:23:52,396 --> 00:23:56,156 Speaker 1: values are, and then try to suggest that it maybe 440 00:23:56,156 --> 00:23:58,276 Speaker 1: would be more consistent with their beliefs or values to 441 00:23:58,356 --> 00:24:00,876 Speaker 1: think some other thing. And I think the whole thing 442 00:24:00,996 --> 00:24:03,636 Speaker 1: is like trying on clothes, you know, in a mall 443 00:24:03,756 --> 00:24:05,596 Speaker 1: or something like that, back when people did that, right, 444 00:24:05,636 --> 00:24:07,276 Speaker 1: you know, all you can ever really do is try 445 00:24:07,276 --> 00:24:09,636 Speaker 1: on a garment and say to a person, hey, try 446 00:24:09,636 --> 00:24:11,436 Speaker 1: this on, look in the marri and see if you 447 00:24:11,516 --> 00:24:15,636 Speaker 1: like who you are in this garment. And if you do, hey, man, 448 00:24:15,876 --> 00:24:18,236 Speaker 1: you might want to buy it. And if not, fair 449 00:24:18,356 --> 00:24:21,516 Speaker 1: enough like walk away. And I have this, I guess 450 00:24:21,596 --> 00:24:25,076 Speaker 1: naive fantasy that by doing that sometimes you can get 451 00:24:25,116 --> 00:24:28,956 Speaker 1: people to re examine. And I have the feeling that 452 00:24:29,036 --> 00:24:30,956 Speaker 1: if I ask you that you would say, yeah, that's 453 00:24:30,956 --> 00:24:33,756 Speaker 1: really that's very naive or that's not like the right 454 00:24:33,756 --> 00:24:36,596 Speaker 1: way to go about it. But maybe I'm misreading that 455 00:24:36,796 --> 00:24:39,756 Speaker 1: the way you related to your own conversation in that chapter. 456 00:24:40,796 --> 00:24:42,836 Speaker 1: I actually do have genuine hope, and that it's just 457 00:24:42,876 --> 00:24:48,476 Speaker 1: scary to say, I feel like I am, you know, 458 00:24:48,796 --> 00:24:51,316 Speaker 1: saying something that could get me canceled to say that 459 00:24:51,356 --> 00:24:54,196 Speaker 1: I have hope almost in a group of people, but 460 00:24:54,276 --> 00:24:58,516 Speaker 1: I do. That's the genuine answer, is that I felt 461 00:24:59,076 --> 00:25:02,396 Speaker 1: better even though he was saying things that I imagined 462 00:25:02,476 --> 00:25:06,716 Speaker 1: he would say to me that we're terrible. I still 463 00:25:06,716 --> 00:25:09,596 Speaker 1: felt better afterwards. First of all, I had a firsthand count. 464 00:25:09,636 --> 00:25:12,716 Speaker 1: And you know, in the book, I say that we 465 00:25:12,756 --> 00:25:15,476 Speaker 1: sort of thank each other after this, and we're very 466 00:25:15,516 --> 00:25:19,636 Speaker 1: like polite with each other. And I see some hope 467 00:25:19,636 --> 00:25:22,716 Speaker 1: in it. I see some hope in that because I've changed. 468 00:25:23,596 --> 00:25:25,436 Speaker 1: I've changed that I have to believe in that for 469 00:25:25,476 --> 00:25:28,036 Speaker 1: someone else or else, I think that I'm bigger than 470 00:25:28,116 --> 00:25:30,556 Speaker 1: someone else, or that I have more awareness than someone else, 471 00:25:30,596 --> 00:25:32,276 Speaker 1: and I don't think that's true, or else I'm setting 472 00:25:32,276 --> 00:25:34,756 Speaker 1: myself up for another ego battle. But if I change, 473 00:25:34,796 --> 00:25:37,236 Speaker 1: then yeah, he can, and I can change from that 474 00:25:37,276 --> 00:25:39,916 Speaker 1: conversation too. I can learn to talk to people differently. 475 00:25:39,996 --> 00:25:43,076 Speaker 1: So it was reciprocal and we both got something. And 476 00:25:43,156 --> 00:25:45,756 Speaker 1: maybe we don't get the nice shiny bow on it 477 00:25:45,796 --> 00:25:47,476 Speaker 1: that people would like to say that we got we 478 00:25:47,596 --> 00:25:51,596 Speaker 1: solved racism, but we got something, and these days, why not. 479 00:25:52,156 --> 00:25:55,316 Speaker 1: It's getting so out of control you might as well try. 480 00:25:55,516 --> 00:25:57,196 Speaker 1: And I think a lot of this is that I 481 00:25:57,276 --> 00:26:00,356 Speaker 1: might as well try while I'm here because the other 482 00:26:00,436 --> 00:26:04,716 Speaker 1: isn't working. Being negative about everything that I see out there, 483 00:26:04,716 --> 00:26:08,276 Speaker 1: calling everything problematic, or saying that everybody is evil except 484 00:26:08,276 --> 00:26:11,356 Speaker 1: for me, seems like I think I live a really big, important, 485 00:26:11,396 --> 00:26:14,396 Speaker 1: magic life, and I don't. I think I'm here with 486 00:26:14,436 --> 00:26:16,956 Speaker 1: other people who are in all of their own stuff 487 00:26:16,996 --> 00:26:18,436 Speaker 1: and all of their own trauma, and all of their 488 00:26:18,476 --> 00:26:20,556 Speaker 1: own belief systems, and we're doing it together, whether we 489 00:26:20,596 --> 00:26:23,156 Speaker 1: like it or not. I absolutely have that hope. It 490 00:26:23,276 --> 00:26:27,436 Speaker 1: is scary, but I'd like to have it anyway. I 491 00:26:27,436 --> 00:26:29,636 Speaker 1: find that profoundly moving. In at the same time that 492 00:26:29,676 --> 00:26:31,236 Speaker 1: I say that, I'm afraid that if I say it's 493 00:26:31,236 --> 00:26:34,356 Speaker 1: profoundly moving, like I screw it up for you. I 494 00:26:34,396 --> 00:26:40,356 Speaker 1: want to close by asking you about so far what 495 00:26:40,396 --> 00:26:44,876 Speaker 1: you've experienced as the downsides of honesty relative to the 496 00:26:44,956 --> 00:26:48,556 Speaker 1: upsides you write in the book about being aware that 497 00:26:48,596 --> 00:26:50,396 Speaker 1: there could be a lot of downsides to talking in 498 00:26:50,436 --> 00:26:53,036 Speaker 1: the honest way that you're doing it now. Book's been 499 00:26:53,036 --> 00:26:56,396 Speaker 1: out for a bit more than a month. Seems to 500 00:26:56,436 --> 00:26:59,676 Speaker 1: be in my world, at least the people who read 501 00:26:59,716 --> 00:27:02,596 Speaker 1: it love it and are really interested in it. Have 502 00:27:02,756 --> 00:27:05,756 Speaker 1: you been experiencing any of the downsides of this kind 503 00:27:05,756 --> 00:27:09,396 Speaker 1: of honesty yet or is it sort of like its 504 00:27:09,436 --> 00:27:12,796 Speaker 1: own reward to be honest like this so far it's 505 00:27:12,836 --> 00:27:16,596 Speaker 1: its own reward. I think that the people who don't 506 00:27:16,636 --> 00:27:18,876 Speaker 1: love it I expected wouldn't love it, and so that 507 00:27:18,956 --> 00:27:21,796 Speaker 1: makes sense to me. But for the most part, it's 508 00:27:21,836 --> 00:27:24,836 Speaker 1: been well received. At least the people who are reaching 509 00:27:24,836 --> 00:27:28,476 Speaker 1: out to me have received it well. And yeah, that 510 00:27:28,556 --> 00:27:31,236 Speaker 1: gives me some hope. First of all, I finally get 511 00:27:31,436 --> 00:27:36,236 Speaker 1: to go out into the world with vulnerability, like the 512 00:27:36,276 --> 00:27:38,436 Speaker 1: vulnerability that's present in this book. That's new for me. 513 00:27:39,276 --> 00:27:42,636 Speaker 1: I've been hiding behind us smug persona for a very 514 00:27:42,676 --> 00:27:46,716 Speaker 1: long time, and now I feel very exposed in a way. 515 00:27:46,756 --> 00:27:48,716 Speaker 1: That is a relief. But also when I meet people 516 00:27:48,996 --> 00:27:50,956 Speaker 1: and we connect around this book, it feels like a 517 00:27:50,996 --> 00:27:53,756 Speaker 1: real connection. It doesn't feel like that same thing where 518 00:27:53,756 --> 00:27:57,036 Speaker 1: we believe the same six things and now you love me. No, 519 00:27:57,196 --> 00:28:01,036 Speaker 1: it feels like we're connecting around something deeper. It's been 520 00:28:01,116 --> 00:28:03,796 Speaker 1: kind of amazing, actually better than I thought it would 521 00:28:03,796 --> 00:28:07,236 Speaker 1: have gone. And so I guess that's the part of 522 00:28:07,276 --> 00:28:08,996 Speaker 1: the book that I got wrong is all of my 523 00:28:09,156 --> 00:28:11,196 Speaker 1: I doubt that it was going to be such a 524 00:28:12,436 --> 00:28:14,676 Speaker 1: I don't know something that turned people against me, and 525 00:28:15,036 --> 00:28:17,316 Speaker 1: that wasn't true, and so I would say, well great 526 00:28:17,476 --> 00:28:21,156 Speaker 1: to everybody else. I think that this could bring us 527 00:28:21,196 --> 00:28:24,076 Speaker 1: closer or whatever your honesty is, I think there's the 528 00:28:24,156 --> 00:28:26,316 Speaker 1: chance that could bring you closer to people, not further away. 529 00:28:26,356 --> 00:28:28,436 Speaker 1: And I didn't believe that going in. So that's a 530 00:28:28,556 --> 00:28:32,916 Speaker 1: huge lesson for me. Some humility in like, no, what 531 00:28:32,956 --> 00:28:36,516 Speaker 1: you're saying is also not so big, and you know 532 00:28:36,716 --> 00:28:39,156 Speaker 1: knew that it's going to create the splash you thought 533 00:28:39,196 --> 00:28:42,196 Speaker 1: it would either maybe it'll be just a soft sort 534 00:28:42,236 --> 00:28:45,436 Speaker 1: of hug of a book. So yeah, I feel very hopeful. 535 00:28:46,316 --> 00:28:49,156 Speaker 1: Thank you for writing a book that is unflinchingly honest. 536 00:28:49,436 --> 00:28:51,716 Speaker 1: And if it is a soft hug of a book, 537 00:28:51,716 --> 00:28:53,556 Speaker 1: it's a soft hug from someone who knows how to 538 00:28:53,596 --> 00:28:55,836 Speaker 1: call bullshit. But I really want to I want to 539 00:28:55,876 --> 00:28:58,476 Speaker 1: thank you. I want to recommend the book to listeners. 540 00:28:58,516 --> 00:29:02,156 Speaker 1: De Louis buzbys unfollow me Essays on Complicity, which is 541 00:29:02,996 --> 00:29:05,116 Speaker 1: the most honest book that you will read this year, 542 00:29:05,596 --> 00:29:08,636 Speaker 1: and I think of genuine value to all of us 543 00:29:08,756 --> 00:29:11,556 Speaker 1: in a moment where little self reflection can go a 544 00:29:11,596 --> 00:29:13,516 Speaker 1: long way. Thank you very much, and I hope when 545 00:29:13,556 --> 00:29:17,476 Speaker 1: you have your ethic of Postcomplicity ready book form or otherwise, 546 00:29:17,476 --> 00:29:18,916 Speaker 1: you'll come back and we can talk more about it. 547 00:29:18,996 --> 00:29:21,796 Speaker 1: I appreciate it and thank you for reading and sharing 548 00:29:21,796 --> 00:29:35,036 Speaker 1: this book. We'll be right back. As I listened to 549 00:29:35,116 --> 00:29:39,356 Speaker 1: Jill Louise Busby, I had the constant feeling that you 550 00:29:39,436 --> 00:29:43,516 Speaker 1: get when you're listening to a genuine intellectual working out 551 00:29:43,596 --> 00:29:47,716 Speaker 1: a very complex set of issues. In Jill's case, the 552 00:29:47,876 --> 00:29:51,716 Speaker 1: format in which she's been working on fundamental questions of 553 00:29:51,796 --> 00:29:58,196 Speaker 1: human connection, honesty, authenticity, race, and bullshit is the format 554 00:29:58,276 --> 00:30:02,636 Speaker 1: of our contemporary lives, the world of diversity and inclusion, 555 00:30:02,956 --> 00:30:06,476 Speaker 1: the persona that we produce on social media, and now 556 00:30:06,716 --> 00:30:10,796 Speaker 1: the literary reflection on all of that, complete with calling 557 00:30:10,876 --> 00:30:15,836 Speaker 1: attention to the honesties and dishonesties of the self. In 558 00:30:15,876 --> 00:30:18,956 Speaker 1: a way, almost all great essayists all the way back 559 00:30:18,956 --> 00:30:23,556 Speaker 1: to Montaigne have been interested in exactly this phenomenon. Where 560 00:30:23,756 --> 00:30:27,236 Speaker 1: is the truth as I depict it about myself? Where 561 00:30:27,356 --> 00:30:29,356 Speaker 1: is the truth as I try to depict it with 562 00:30:29,436 --> 00:30:32,156 Speaker 1: reference to the rest of the world. What Jill is 563 00:30:32,196 --> 00:30:37,956 Speaker 1: profoundly adding to that frame is her searing willingness to 564 00:30:38,116 --> 00:30:42,236 Speaker 1: be honest and to call bullshit on every institutional actor 565 00:30:42,356 --> 00:30:45,716 Speaker 1: in our current world who is trying to make sense 566 00:30:45,716 --> 00:30:48,236 Speaker 1: of things and, at least in principle, to make the 567 00:30:48,276 --> 00:30:53,196 Speaker 1: world a better place. Her standard is high, so high 568 00:30:53,236 --> 00:30:55,996 Speaker 1: that I could certainly never survive it, and so high 569 00:30:56,076 --> 00:30:59,516 Speaker 1: that she herself, subjecting herself to that level of scrutiny, 570 00:30:59,876 --> 00:31:04,596 Speaker 1: finds herself wanting as well. And yet from this analysis 571 00:31:04,956 --> 00:31:07,516 Speaker 1: comes not a throw your hands up in the air 572 00:31:07,556 --> 00:31:13,116 Speaker 1: and give up, but rather a radically reformulated possibility of 573 00:31:13,156 --> 00:31:18,596 Speaker 1: communication and connection and something that Jill herself was not 574 00:31:18,716 --> 00:31:22,716 Speaker 1: afraid to call hope. All of that in a moment. 575 00:31:22,756 --> 00:31:26,956 Speaker 1: Where As Jill herself suggests, just saying that you might 576 00:31:26,996 --> 00:31:31,116 Speaker 1: be hopeful is itself an invitation for somebody to be 577 00:31:31,476 --> 00:31:35,236 Speaker 1: very frustrated with you. They say that every society gets 578 00:31:35,236 --> 00:31:38,276 Speaker 1: the government that it deserves, well, it may also be 579 00:31:38,316 --> 00:31:41,596 Speaker 1: true that every historical moment gets the intellectual life that 580 00:31:41,636 --> 00:31:45,756 Speaker 1: it deserves. Measured by that criterion, I don't always think 581 00:31:45,796 --> 00:31:48,596 Speaker 1: that our current era is doing that well, but hearing 582 00:31:48,716 --> 00:31:54,196 Speaker 1: Jill gives me some hope. Genuine thinkers with genuinely remarkable 583 00:31:54,276 --> 00:31:57,796 Speaker 1: ideas have the capacity to shape the way we are 584 00:31:57,796 --> 00:32:00,876 Speaker 1: thinking about some of the hard problems that face us. 585 00:32:00,916 --> 00:32:05,716 Speaker 1: All until the next time I speak to you, breathe deep, think, 586 00:32:05,756 --> 00:32:09,276 Speaker 1: deep thoughts, and if it gives you some hope, have 587 00:32:09,316 --> 00:32:13,516 Speaker 1: a little fun. If you're a regular listener, you know 588 00:32:13,716 --> 00:32:17,196 Speaker 1: I love communicating with you here on Deep Background. I 589 00:32:17,236 --> 00:32:20,636 Speaker 1: also really want that communication to run both ways. I 590 00:32:20,716 --> 00:32:22,756 Speaker 1: want to know what you think are the most important 591 00:32:22,796 --> 00:32:25,636 Speaker 1: stories of the moment and what kinds of guests you 592 00:32:25,636 --> 00:32:28,516 Speaker 1: think you would be useful to hear from. More So, 593 00:32:28,556 --> 00:32:32,076 Speaker 1: I'm opening a new channel of communication. To access it, 594 00:32:32,396 --> 00:32:35,676 Speaker 1: just go to my website Noah Dashfelman dot com. You 595 00:32:35,716 --> 00:32:38,556 Speaker 1: can sign up from my newsletter and you can tell 596 00:32:38,596 --> 00:32:41,836 Speaker 1: me exactly what's on your mind, something that would be 597 00:32:41,916 --> 00:32:45,396 Speaker 1: really valuable to me and I hope to you too. 598 00:32:46,916 --> 00:32:50,036 Speaker 1: Deep Background is brought to you by Pushkin Industries. Our 599 00:32:50,076 --> 00:32:53,676 Speaker 1: producer is mo La Board, our engineer is Bentaladay, and 600 00:32:53,756 --> 00:32:58,636 Speaker 1: our showrunner is Sophie Crane mckibbn. Editorial support from noahm Osband. 601 00:32:59,156 --> 00:33:03,316 Speaker 1: Theme music by Luis Garat at Pushkin. Thanks to Mia Lobell, 602 00:33:03,596 --> 00:33:08,316 Speaker 1: Julia Barton, Lydia Jane Cott, Heather Faine, Carlie mcgliori, Maggie 603 00:33:08,316 --> 00:33:12,076 Speaker 1: Taylor Xandler, and Jacob Weisberg. You can find me on 604 00:33:12,116 --> 00:33:15,116 Speaker 1: Twitter at Noah R. Feldman. I also write a column 605 00:33:15,116 --> 00:33:17,916 Speaker 1: for Bloomberg Opinion, which you can find at bloomberg dot 606 00:33:17,916 --> 00:33:22,756 Speaker 1: com slash Feldman. 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