1 00:00:01,880 --> 00:00:07,640 Speaker 1: Welcome to zero. I'm Kshatti. This week explosions, experiments and 2 00:00:08,080 --> 00:00:25,600 Speaker 1: three D printing. From the outside. Batteries can seem boring, 3 00:00:26,200 --> 00:00:29,520 Speaker 1: but they're a bit like jazz or museums. The people 4 00:00:29,600 --> 00:00:33,240 Speaker 1: that care really care. They become obsessed when they find 5 00:00:33,280 --> 00:00:36,760 Speaker 1: something intriguing and can't stop thinking about it. Everybody wants 6 00:00:36,760 --> 00:00:40,360 Speaker 1: a better battery. There's just infinite demand for better batteries 7 00:00:40,360 --> 00:00:44,120 Speaker 1: that are safer, that our higher performance and those better batteries, 8 00:00:44,120 --> 00:00:46,599 Speaker 1: and not just because you want a smartphone that will 9 00:00:46,680 --> 00:00:49,800 Speaker 1: run for the whole day without needing more juice, but 10 00:00:49,920 --> 00:00:53,080 Speaker 1: also because batteries are powering more of our lives and 11 00:00:53,120 --> 00:00:57,160 Speaker 1: are crucial to making renewable power reliable and their job 12 00:00:57,280 --> 00:01:00,520 Speaker 1: is not done yet. As batteries have become cheaper, people 13 00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:03,000 Speaker 1: want to put them in all kinds of places, and 14 00:01:03,080 --> 00:01:05,960 Speaker 1: that means they need to come in all kinds of shapes. 15 00:01:06,600 --> 00:01:09,720 Speaker 1: You can fold them, they're flexible, they're bendable. So just 16 00:01:09,760 --> 00:01:11,840 Speaker 1: to kind of prove a point we've made like donut 17 00:01:11,840 --> 00:01:15,440 Speaker 1: shape batteries before and fund things like that. That's Christine Howe, 18 00:01:15,560 --> 00:01:19,440 Speaker 1: the founder of Imprint Energy. She's making three D printed 19 00:01:19,640 --> 00:01:23,680 Speaker 1: foldable batteries which can be used as smart labels. Think 20 00:01:23,720 --> 00:01:26,240 Speaker 1: of the last time you ordered something online and got 21 00:01:26,240 --> 00:01:29,120 Speaker 1: a million updates about where it was. Each of those 22 00:01:29,200 --> 00:01:33,000 Speaker 1: updates came from a person interacting with and scanning that package. 23 00:01:33,520 --> 00:01:36,600 Speaker 1: A smart label powered by Imprint's battery can send the 24 00:01:36,680 --> 00:01:40,880 Speaker 1: messages itself. So these are almost like a cell phone 25 00:01:40,880 --> 00:01:43,000 Speaker 1: that's been flattened out and a cellphone that you can 26 00:01:43,080 --> 00:01:45,280 Speaker 1: kind of attach to almost anything, and in that case 27 00:01:45,760 --> 00:01:48,400 Speaker 1: you can actually track where this is anywhere in the world. 28 00:01:48,400 --> 00:01:52,280 Speaker 1: That's scott selphone coverage. That connectivity might not seem important 29 00:01:52,320 --> 00:01:55,320 Speaker 1: if it's just about a pair of shoes, but being 30 00:01:55,360 --> 00:01:58,520 Speaker 1: able to get updates and information about the heat and 31 00:01:58,680 --> 00:02:02,720 Speaker 1: humidity that are exposed to can stop us wasting so 32 00:02:02,800 --> 00:02:06,760 Speaker 1: much stuff. Imprints batteries are being tested by companies that 33 00:02:06,800 --> 00:02:10,520 Speaker 1: ship food and even crop seeds. These packages are particularly 34 00:02:10,639 --> 00:02:14,560 Speaker 1: vulnerable to theft and price couching, and more benignly, it's 35 00:02:14,680 --> 00:02:18,440 Speaker 1: just important that they stay at a certain temperature. With food, 36 00:02:18,840 --> 00:02:21,320 Speaker 1: the lastes on the error of like a third of 37 00:02:21,400 --> 00:02:23,600 Speaker 1: food that's producer just doesn't get to the right place, 38 00:02:23,680 --> 00:02:26,360 Speaker 1: or it gets over ripens or rots along the way. 39 00:02:26,919 --> 00:02:31,200 Speaker 1: Optimizing delivery using technology like imprints can reduce emissions while 40 00:02:31,320 --> 00:02:34,880 Speaker 1: saving on fuel costs. And there's a broader point. As 41 00:02:34,880 --> 00:02:38,040 Speaker 1: the race continues to make new and better batteries, the 42 00:02:38,160 --> 00:02:41,960 Speaker 1: innovations won't only help avoid waste and cut emissions, they'll 43 00:02:42,000 --> 00:02:46,720 Speaker 1: also have applications we can only imagine. Christine has already 44 00:02:46,800 --> 00:02:49,720 Speaker 1: raised twenty five million dollars for imprint Energy, and when 45 00:02:49,760 --> 00:02:52,200 Speaker 1: I visited her last summer in an office park in 46 00:02:52,240 --> 00:02:55,520 Speaker 1: Silicon Valley, they were scrambling to finish an order of 47 00:02:55,560 --> 00:02:59,399 Speaker 1: thousands of batteries, working double shifts to get those batteries 48 00:02:59,480 --> 00:03:03,320 Speaker 1: out the Christine took the Zero team on a tour 49 00:03:03,440 --> 00:03:06,360 Speaker 1: of her small factory and then afterwards sat down to 50 00:03:06,360 --> 00:03:09,320 Speaker 1: talk about how she became a battery person, how she 51 00:03:09,400 --> 00:03:12,440 Speaker 1: went from academia to running a company, and how a 52 00:03:12,520 --> 00:03:29,600 Speaker 1: printaple goop became a working battery. Welcome to the show, Christine, 53 00:03:29,880 --> 00:03:33,840 Speaker 1: thank you. Now, what is the moment that you thought 54 00:03:33,840 --> 00:03:37,560 Speaker 1: batteries are the future? So I went to Berkeley for 55 00:03:38,080 --> 00:03:41,640 Speaker 1: my undergrad degree and grad degree. I studied matual science. 56 00:03:42,040 --> 00:03:44,480 Speaker 1: My dad was actually matual scientists, and so I decided, 57 00:03:44,560 --> 00:03:46,200 Speaker 1: I'm going to try this out and if it works, 58 00:03:46,280 --> 00:03:48,520 Speaker 1: that's great. It's not. You know, I can change my mind, 59 00:03:48,880 --> 00:03:53,360 Speaker 1: and I really didn't have an understanding of what I 60 00:03:53,360 --> 00:03:56,840 Speaker 1: wanted to do, but I answered an undergraduate ad to 61 00:03:56,920 --> 00:03:59,920 Speaker 1: become a researcher in a group that was setting battery 62 00:04:00,280 --> 00:04:03,400 Speaker 1: and so I just wanted a way to make a 63 00:04:03,440 --> 00:04:06,360 Speaker 1: little bit of money through the year and to help out. 64 00:04:06,640 --> 00:04:09,720 Speaker 1: But I got really lucky because the grad student that 65 00:04:09,760 --> 00:04:12,440 Speaker 1: I was helping, his name is Dan Steinert. He was 66 00:04:12,560 --> 00:04:17,240 Speaker 1: a very extremely passionate person about batteries and just wanted 67 00:04:17,240 --> 00:04:20,080 Speaker 1: to solve really hard tech problems and that was just 68 00:04:20,120 --> 00:04:23,719 Speaker 1: really infectious. I just got very obsessed with it as well, 69 00:04:24,040 --> 00:04:27,359 Speaker 1: and since then, you know, I've just been also obsessed 70 00:04:27,440 --> 00:04:31,640 Speaker 1: with making better batteries. Being from Berkeley, we were very 71 00:04:31,720 --> 00:04:36,080 Speaker 1: influenced by the clean tech sustainability focused there as well. 72 00:04:36,480 --> 00:04:40,120 Speaker 1: So it was really by kind of luck and inspired 73 00:04:40,160 --> 00:04:43,440 Speaker 1: by just somebody who had infinite passion for this field. 74 00:04:43,680 --> 00:04:47,560 Speaker 1: And then between finishing your grad studies and founding Imprint Energy, 75 00:04:48,200 --> 00:04:50,880 Speaker 1: what do you do a lot along the way. So 76 00:04:51,120 --> 00:04:54,840 Speaker 1: when I started researching batteries as an undergrad, I was 77 00:04:54,880 --> 00:04:58,800 Speaker 1: looking at lithium ion chemistries and like everybody else, trying 78 00:04:58,839 --> 00:05:02,880 Speaker 1: to squeeze as much density and performance out of really 79 00:05:03,040 --> 00:05:07,359 Speaker 1: unusual materials. And as time went on, you know, I 80 00:05:07,360 --> 00:05:10,200 Speaker 1: became a safety officer and had to deal with many 81 00:05:10,240 --> 00:05:13,200 Speaker 1: explosions in the lab. So I just got I think 82 00:05:13,200 --> 00:05:15,960 Speaker 1: a little bit tired of lithium. Chemistries are just difficult 83 00:05:15,960 --> 00:05:17,840 Speaker 1: to work with, and I knew there were all these 84 00:05:17,839 --> 00:05:20,599 Speaker 1: sort of problems with the materials themselves and the safety 85 00:05:20,600 --> 00:05:25,120 Speaker 1: of these chemistries. Most electronic devices are powered by lithium 86 00:05:25,160 --> 00:05:29,000 Speaker 1: ion batteries your cell phone, your laptop, your electric car. 87 00:05:29,640 --> 00:05:32,800 Speaker 1: But these batteries back in so much energy that if 88 00:05:32,800 --> 00:05:37,080 Speaker 1: they get damaged, it can lead to catastrophic fires. In 89 00:05:37,160 --> 00:05:40,080 Speaker 1: for example, like a warehouse, two palettes run into each other, 90 00:05:40,279 --> 00:05:43,000 Speaker 1: and there was a lithium power tracker that looked like 91 00:05:43,000 --> 00:05:45,760 Speaker 1: the size of a cell phone in between those two palettes. 92 00:05:45,800 --> 00:05:48,679 Speaker 1: They literally exploded, you know, and then damage a bunch 93 00:05:48,680 --> 00:05:51,159 Speaker 1: of inventory as well. So a lot of these retailers 94 00:05:51,160 --> 00:05:53,560 Speaker 1: are being pushed to the point of saying, hey, we 95 00:05:53,680 --> 00:05:56,279 Speaker 1: have to eliminate any sort of the dangerous you know, 96 00:05:56,320 --> 00:05:59,120 Speaker 1: oftentimes lithium batteries in the warehouse because there's just too 97 00:05:59,200 --> 00:06:01,800 Speaker 1: much commotion here, there's too much risk of damage or 98 00:06:01,920 --> 00:06:05,680 Speaker 1: flammability risk. Or whatever. So grad school, Christine had a 99 00:06:05,720 --> 00:06:08,839 Speaker 1: problem to solve, and the solution lay in non lithium 100 00:06:08,839 --> 00:06:12,240 Speaker 1: mine Chemistries. I got inspired by taking a trip out 101 00:06:12,279 --> 00:06:15,040 Speaker 1: to Japan for the summer, and while I was there, 102 00:06:15,160 --> 00:06:19,200 Speaker 1: I was in a lab that wanted to print three 103 00:06:19,279 --> 00:06:24,040 Speaker 1: D batteries using really next gen printing technology. I was 104 00:06:24,080 --> 00:06:27,200 Speaker 1: supposed to be the lithium battery person that would help 105 00:06:27,279 --> 00:06:30,120 Speaker 1: them print these materials. But I go to this facility 106 00:06:30,320 --> 00:06:34,080 Speaker 1: and it's literally like an office space without any safety 107 00:06:34,160 --> 00:06:36,960 Speaker 1: exhaust or glove boxes. So there's no way we're going 108 00:06:37,000 --> 00:06:40,680 Speaker 1: to handle these dangerous lithium materials. And so it almost 109 00:06:40,680 --> 00:06:43,520 Speaker 1: felt like our project wasn't able to take off the ground. 110 00:06:43,880 --> 00:06:46,320 Speaker 1: But when we thought about it, we thought, well, why 111 00:06:46,320 --> 00:06:50,200 Speaker 1: don't we process a much safer material? And zinc kept 112 00:06:50,200 --> 00:06:52,680 Speaker 1: coming up as like, well, this is much safer, you 113 00:06:52,720 --> 00:06:56,240 Speaker 1: don't need all that overhead, and so that was a 114 00:06:56,279 --> 00:06:59,640 Speaker 1: pivotal turn for me. I went from focusing on lithium 115 00:06:59,640 --> 00:07:03,080 Speaker 1: batteries to zinc because I realize just much easier material 116 00:07:03,120 --> 00:07:06,360 Speaker 1: to handle, It's much easier to process, it's earth abundant. 117 00:07:06,880 --> 00:07:10,760 Speaker 1: So once we started focusing on zinc, we realize we 118 00:07:10,840 --> 00:07:14,080 Speaker 1: could process these zinc batteries differently than how their main 119 00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:18,600 Speaker 1: in double as Today the double or triple A battery 120 00:07:18,680 --> 00:07:21,840 Speaker 1: that you most commonly handle is not a lithium and battery. 121 00:07:22,240 --> 00:07:25,120 Speaker 1: Those are made with metals like zinc and manganese, which 122 00:07:25,160 --> 00:07:28,760 Speaker 1: are far less likely to cause fires. Christine uses the 123 00:07:28,800 --> 00:07:32,320 Speaker 1: same chemistry but with some very important tweaks to make 124 00:07:32,400 --> 00:07:36,720 Speaker 1: imprint energies batteries which can be printed. Christine took us 125 00:07:36,720 --> 00:07:39,320 Speaker 1: on a tour as they were actually doing this. The 126 00:07:39,400 --> 00:07:42,880 Speaker 1: batteries start as raw materials that come in giant sex 127 00:07:44,040 --> 00:07:47,520 Speaker 1: like bags of large bags of rice and la or beans, 128 00:07:47,560 --> 00:07:50,680 Speaker 1: but they've got powders in them. Our batteries literally start 129 00:07:50,680 --> 00:07:54,440 Speaker 1: off as powders and solvents that we kind of blend together. 130 00:07:55,400 --> 00:07:57,600 Speaker 1: So you know, for example, like our zinc collectro, it's 131 00:07:57,600 --> 00:08:00,160 Speaker 1: got zinc powder, it's got some binder that holds its gether, 132 00:08:00,200 --> 00:08:02,680 Speaker 1: and it's got a solvent that makes it flow. And 133 00:08:02,840 --> 00:08:06,080 Speaker 1: same with that magni sack side cathode, and then behind 134 00:08:06,160 --> 00:08:08,800 Speaker 1: us over here and over here a bunch of mixers 135 00:08:08,800 --> 00:08:11,760 Speaker 1: that look like you're kind of home kitchen egg mixer, 136 00:08:12,040 --> 00:08:15,520 Speaker 1: but ten times bigger. And then using the giant mixer. 137 00:08:15,800 --> 00:08:18,920 Speaker 1: All of those powders are turned into a very special goop. 138 00:08:19,280 --> 00:08:21,680 Speaker 1: It looks a little like glue, the kind you used 139 00:08:21,680 --> 00:08:24,680 Speaker 1: to play with in school and get all over your fingers. 140 00:08:25,560 --> 00:08:29,320 Speaker 1: It's this kind of white pace. It's pretty viscous. It 141 00:08:29,360 --> 00:08:33,320 Speaker 1: does flow, but it's also quite pasty and thick. And 142 00:08:33,360 --> 00:08:38,400 Speaker 1: so we're actually printing this by squeezing it through a sensil, 143 00:08:38,840 --> 00:08:41,240 Speaker 1: and that sensil has a pattern on it, So whatever 144 00:08:41,360 --> 00:08:44,280 Speaker 1: shape you want to print from a battery perspective, you 145 00:08:44,360 --> 00:08:47,560 Speaker 1: just cut out that sensil shape. So literally today we've 146 00:08:47,600 --> 00:08:51,120 Speaker 1: got four rectangles that we're printing on each substrate, but 147 00:08:51,240 --> 00:08:55,559 Speaker 1: it could be four hearts. While finishing a PhD, Christine 148 00:08:55,600 --> 00:08:57,920 Speaker 1: started to look into the Internet of Things as a 149 00:08:58,000 --> 00:09:01,280 Speaker 1: route to using her research. If you haven't heard of 150 00:09:01,280 --> 00:09:05,679 Speaker 1: this term yet, the Internet of things or IoT. It's 151 00:09:05,720 --> 00:09:09,959 Speaker 1: the connection of physical objects fridges, thermostats, or even packages 152 00:09:10,280 --> 00:09:14,000 Speaker 1: to the Internet, and many of these devices required batteries. 153 00:09:14,760 --> 00:09:18,720 Speaker 1: Given the trends in sensors and Internet of things, we 154 00:09:18,840 --> 00:09:21,959 Speaker 1: realized that there'd be this interesting opportunity to integrate these 155 00:09:22,000 --> 00:09:25,839 Speaker 1: types of safe batteries in lots of devices, and so 156 00:09:26,000 --> 00:09:28,200 Speaker 1: I spent a lot of time on the mature science 157 00:09:28,200 --> 00:09:30,800 Speaker 1: side of that, trying to make these materials work, trying 158 00:09:30,800 --> 00:09:33,480 Speaker 1: to get some sort of proof of concept that these 159 00:09:33,520 --> 00:09:37,160 Speaker 1: batteries had good performance, they could be processed. And I 160 00:09:37,280 --> 00:09:40,120 Speaker 1: just got really lucky. This doesn't happen to every grad student, 161 00:09:40,240 --> 00:09:43,800 Speaker 1: but my project actually worked. I had some really compelling data, 162 00:09:43,880 --> 00:09:46,720 Speaker 1: and so in my last year as a grad student, 163 00:09:46,960 --> 00:09:50,760 Speaker 1: I started publishing that data, going out on the conference 164 00:09:50,800 --> 00:09:54,200 Speaker 1: circuit talking about my work, and a consistent message that 165 00:09:54,240 --> 00:09:57,000 Speaker 1: came back from big companies that were at these talks 166 00:09:57,080 --> 00:09:59,880 Speaker 1: was that they wanted to get their hands on this technology. 167 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:01,960 Speaker 1: I was kind of the first time, I'm sure to 168 00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:04,840 Speaker 1: think about, like, well, what does happen to academic research. 169 00:10:04,920 --> 00:10:07,560 Speaker 1: Does it stay you know, in the four walls of 170 00:10:07,640 --> 00:10:09,640 Speaker 1: hers Mining building, which is where I did all my 171 00:10:09,679 --> 00:10:11,960 Speaker 1: research as a grad student, or is there a way 172 00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:14,240 Speaker 1: for this technology to get out? And that was the 173 00:10:14,320 --> 00:10:16,920 Speaker 1: first time, you know, me and also my advisors and 174 00:10:16,960 --> 00:10:21,360 Speaker 1: mentors started to talk about commercialization and using different vehicles, 175 00:10:21,360 --> 00:10:24,920 Speaker 1: whether it's licensing or startups, to pull technology out of 176 00:10:24,960 --> 00:10:28,520 Speaker 1: the university. And so, you know, after emotionally sort of 177 00:10:28,559 --> 00:10:32,200 Speaker 1: switching gears from being a researcher really just fixated on 178 00:10:32,240 --> 00:10:36,040 Speaker 1: solving a hard problem to somebody really interested in bringing 179 00:10:36,080 --> 00:10:40,480 Speaker 1: technology to the real world. That inspired this idea that 180 00:10:40,520 --> 00:10:44,120 Speaker 1: we could start a company in Print Energy to commercialize 181 00:10:44,600 --> 00:10:48,280 Speaker 1: cool technology. So what aio did you found the company 182 00:10:48,400 --> 00:10:51,319 Speaker 1: and how many years before you actually made the product 183 00:10:51,360 --> 00:10:55,520 Speaker 1: that somebody would buy. I graduated like Christmas two ten, 184 00:10:55,840 --> 00:10:59,600 Speaker 1: and we incorporated the company like December two and ten, 185 00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:03,000 Speaker 1: and so this is my first and only real full 186 00:11:03,040 --> 00:11:07,840 Speaker 1: time job, you know, outside of school essentially, so for 187 00:11:08,040 --> 00:11:12,120 Speaker 1: four or five years we incubated on campus. We essentially 188 00:11:12,200 --> 00:11:14,319 Speaker 1: kind of paid the equivalent of like a gym membership 189 00:11:14,559 --> 00:11:18,000 Speaker 1: to stay on campus, use the facilities, and we got 190 00:11:18,000 --> 00:11:20,280 Speaker 1: to keep the ip as Imprint Energy as an entity, 191 00:11:20,400 --> 00:11:22,320 Speaker 1: but we got to kind of get the benefit of 192 00:11:22,360 --> 00:11:25,360 Speaker 1: still being in that academic space and having access to 193 00:11:25,400 --> 00:11:28,520 Speaker 1: all that incredible equipment and all the smart people. We 194 00:11:28,600 --> 00:11:31,800 Speaker 1: had a lot of student interns that helped build those 195 00:11:31,840 --> 00:11:34,600 Speaker 1: early prototypes. So it took some time. You know, batteries 196 00:11:34,600 --> 00:11:38,400 Speaker 1: are really challenging in that to stabilize and understand the chemistry, 197 00:11:38,440 --> 00:11:39,800 Speaker 1: you have to make a lot of batteries and you 198 00:11:39,880 --> 00:11:41,840 Speaker 1: have to test a lot. You can't get away with 199 00:11:41,880 --> 00:11:44,400 Speaker 1: just making one and then just go into market. So 200 00:11:44,440 --> 00:11:46,160 Speaker 1: it took us some time there, and in that time 201 00:11:46,400 --> 00:11:50,080 Speaker 1: we bootstrapped the company. We entered a lot of business competitions. 202 00:11:50,120 --> 00:11:53,839 Speaker 1: We probably made under one hundred thousand in various competitions. 203 00:11:54,320 --> 00:11:56,520 Speaker 1: The first one I think we won was just an 204 00:11:56,520 --> 00:11:59,520 Speaker 1: inter Berkeley competition, and I remember the check size being 205 00:11:59,720 --> 00:12:01,559 Speaker 1: sent five hundred dollars and we thought we were rich. 206 00:12:01,679 --> 00:12:04,240 Speaker 1: We bought a screen printer with that money. Then we 207 00:12:04,320 --> 00:12:07,560 Speaker 1: kind of graduated to applying for grants and that brought 208 00:12:07,640 --> 00:12:10,240 Speaker 1: us into the realm of bringing hundreds of thousands or 209 00:12:10,280 --> 00:12:13,000 Speaker 1: even millions of dollars into the company. So that helped 210 00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:18,200 Speaker 1: funded that early kind of development chemistry, stabilization, proof of 211 00:12:18,240 --> 00:12:22,240 Speaker 1: concept stage of just us understanding this chemistry. I think 212 00:12:22,280 --> 00:12:26,360 Speaker 1: about twenty fourteen fifteen time frame. We started to get good, 213 00:12:26,360 --> 00:12:29,240 Speaker 1: consistent results and so we raised our Series A and 214 00:12:29,400 --> 00:12:32,959 Speaker 1: that gave us a larger infusion of resources to hire 215 00:12:33,280 --> 00:12:35,320 Speaker 1: a team to move to the space. So we move 216 00:12:35,679 --> 00:12:39,440 Speaker 1: straight to Alameda from Berkeley. It's the same facility we 217 00:12:39,520 --> 00:12:42,480 Speaker 1: walked around. These batteries are being manufactured in a space 218 00:12:42,679 --> 00:12:45,440 Speaker 1: no bigger than your average classroom, and it is the 219 00:12:45,480 --> 00:12:49,199 Speaker 1: smallest battery factory I have seen, not just because Imprint 220 00:12:49,320 --> 00:12:52,880 Speaker 1: Energy is a startup, but because the innovative process just 221 00:12:53,120 --> 00:13:00,600 Speaker 1: requires less space. Takes like tens of meters of space 222 00:13:00,800 --> 00:13:04,760 Speaker 1: in a large scale battery facility to be able to 223 00:13:04,800 --> 00:13:08,120 Speaker 1: make tens of thousands of batteries in general. Yeah, so 224 00:13:08,160 --> 00:13:11,000 Speaker 1: it's a much more compact process. So overall, and the 225 00:13:11,080 --> 00:13:16,280 Speaker 1: workhorse of our processing is printing, drying, and then laminating. 226 00:13:16,400 --> 00:13:19,640 Speaker 1: There's some finishing processes of the customer wants holes punched 227 00:13:19,640 --> 00:13:21,520 Speaker 1: in a certain place, or if they wanted to attach 228 00:13:21,600 --> 00:13:24,920 Speaker 1: to something. But you know, to make a say like 229 00:13:24,920 --> 00:13:28,559 Speaker 1: a lithium battery could take anywhere from ten to multiple 230 00:13:28,600 --> 00:13:32,400 Speaker 1: dozens of different equipment and different stations. So it's very simple. 231 00:13:35,720 --> 00:13:40,120 Speaker 1: We've gone through a very interesting journey looking for product 232 00:13:40,200 --> 00:13:43,600 Speaker 1: market fit with customers. Batteries are really interesting in that 233 00:13:44,040 --> 00:13:46,680 Speaker 1: everybody wants a better battery, and so we get approached 234 00:13:46,679 --> 00:13:51,400 Speaker 1: by customers from little things to like massive things all 235 00:13:51,440 --> 00:13:55,000 Speaker 1: the time. There's just infinite demand for better batteries that 236 00:13:55,040 --> 00:13:57,679 Speaker 1: are safer that our higher performance, and so what's been 237 00:13:57,720 --> 00:14:01,520 Speaker 1: challenging for us is narrowing that and saying, okay, you know, 238 00:14:01,679 --> 00:14:04,000 Speaker 1: our initial markets are really going to be in this 239 00:14:04,080 --> 00:14:07,640 Speaker 1: one space, and we're best positioned to be that solution 240 00:14:07,760 --> 00:14:10,560 Speaker 1: in that market. So that took us some time. You know, 241 00:14:10,600 --> 00:14:12,920 Speaker 1: we did a lot of projects with customers and we 242 00:14:13,000 --> 00:14:15,640 Speaker 1: made a lot of amazing things, but it took us 243 00:14:15,640 --> 00:14:18,440 Speaker 1: some time to land on this IoT smart label market 244 00:14:18,480 --> 00:14:23,240 Speaker 1: as this huge growth opportunity that has no other real 245 00:14:23,360 --> 00:14:26,160 Speaker 1: good solution. It wasn't really until the last couple of 246 00:14:26,240 --> 00:14:28,800 Speaker 1: years that we got there. So we're now at a 247 00:14:28,800 --> 00:14:32,640 Speaker 1: phase today where we've got orders from customers and they're 248 00:14:32,640 --> 00:14:34,120 Speaker 1: on the order of one hundreds of thousands of units. 249 00:14:34,160 --> 00:14:37,240 Speaker 1: We're about to negotiate a million unit contract with one 250 00:14:37,280 --> 00:14:39,760 Speaker 1: of our customers, and we're at a scale up phase. 251 00:14:39,960 --> 00:14:42,000 Speaker 1: And what that means is we need to be able 252 00:14:42,080 --> 00:14:45,520 Speaker 1: to make this battery in huge volume and also more 253 00:14:45,560 --> 00:14:48,960 Speaker 1: cost effectively. And along that journey, you know, it's been 254 00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:51,440 Speaker 1: more than ten years. I've always thought every day was 255 00:14:51,480 --> 00:14:53,800 Speaker 1: like a really hard day, but scaling up is really hard, 256 00:14:54,240 --> 00:14:57,400 Speaker 1: and so we're kind of living our hardest lessons and 257 00:14:58,040 --> 00:15:02,240 Speaker 1: finding our hardest battles now because making a thing in 258 00:15:02,400 --> 00:15:06,360 Speaker 1: huge volume, cost effectively and delighting your customers over and 259 00:15:06,400 --> 00:15:18,320 Speaker 1: over again is just really really challenging. After the break, 260 00:15:18,400 --> 00:15:21,120 Speaker 1: how Christine raised money to go from a prototype group 261 00:15:21,240 --> 00:15:24,560 Speaker 1: to working batteries, and how she transitioned from academia to 262 00:15:24,640 --> 00:15:27,280 Speaker 1: running a company. By the way, if you want to 263 00:15:27,360 --> 00:15:29,720 Speaker 1: check out what these batteries look like, we have some 264 00:15:29,760 --> 00:15:44,520 Speaker 1: pictures online and a link in the show notes. Most 265 00:15:44,560 --> 00:15:48,200 Speaker 1: industries that shift their products long distances plan for a 266 00:15:48,240 --> 00:15:51,840 Speaker 1: certain amount of waste. The pharma industry, Christine says, can 267 00:15:51,880 --> 00:15:54,280 Speaker 1: see up to forty percent loss in the supply chain. 268 00:15:54,920 --> 00:15:58,240 Speaker 1: It's one reason they produce more drugs than needed, knowing 269 00:15:58,280 --> 00:16:01,480 Speaker 1: that there will be losses. The food industry can have 270 00:16:01,520 --> 00:16:06,240 Speaker 1: comparable losses, especially during transport. The emissions linked to waste 271 00:16:06,280 --> 00:16:09,480 Speaker 1: are a major challenge, one that Christine hopes to solve 272 00:16:09,520 --> 00:16:14,200 Speaker 1: by powering smart labels with printable batteries. But getting there 273 00:16:14,320 --> 00:16:18,560 Speaker 1: means scaling production of these batteries fast. So right now 274 00:16:18,560 --> 00:16:21,160 Speaker 1: we're kind of in a race. We literally have a 275 00:16:21,280 --> 00:16:23,760 Speaker 1: unit target today. I think the target was four hundred 276 00:16:23,840 --> 00:16:26,000 Speaker 1: or five hundred batteries. I think we met it, but 277 00:16:26,040 --> 00:16:28,360 Speaker 1: we're trying to catch up. We're on the hook to 278 00:16:28,560 --> 00:16:32,920 Speaker 1: deliver thousands of batteries this month, and with summer vacations 279 00:16:33,040 --> 00:16:35,760 Speaker 1: and things, you know. In some cases like equipment going down, 280 00:16:35,920 --> 00:16:39,520 Speaker 1: we've had to recover time. So we've actually been running 281 00:16:39,520 --> 00:16:42,600 Speaker 1: extended shifts to the interview. You're getting on the line. Yeah, yeah, 282 00:16:42,680 --> 00:16:44,760 Speaker 1: I mean all of us are on the hook essentially, 283 00:16:44,800 --> 00:16:46,880 Speaker 1: So I ask you guys to join the line if 284 00:16:46,880 --> 00:16:50,840 Speaker 1: you have extra high ideas. So in the scale of phase, 285 00:16:51,000 --> 00:16:54,120 Speaker 1: capital is still key. How much more money have you 286 00:16:54,200 --> 00:16:56,200 Speaker 1: raised since? And like how much do you need to 287 00:16:56,280 --> 00:17:00,440 Speaker 1: raise because you're also getting revenue. Yeah, yeah, So over 288 00:17:00,520 --> 00:17:04,040 Speaker 1: the lifetime of the company, in terms of institutional funding, 289 00:17:04,400 --> 00:17:07,359 Speaker 1: we've raised a total about twenty five million or so. 290 00:17:07,920 --> 00:17:12,880 Speaker 1: We've completed a Series B over basically during COVID, so 291 00:17:12,920 --> 00:17:15,639 Speaker 1: we're gearing up to raise a much larger Series C. 292 00:17:16,320 --> 00:17:19,160 Speaker 1: In that Series AID to B phase, we've really been 293 00:17:19,680 --> 00:17:24,800 Speaker 1: not just validating technology, but validating our customer and market targets. 294 00:17:25,240 --> 00:17:28,520 Speaker 1: Series C is really about scaling and getting to the 295 00:17:28,560 --> 00:17:31,359 Speaker 1: point where we can build a profitable business, and so 296 00:17:31,400 --> 00:17:35,280 Speaker 1: we're anticipating that we'll probably raise another twenty thirty million 297 00:17:35,359 --> 00:17:38,960 Speaker 1: dollars to build up that capability and capacity. Lots of 298 00:17:39,080 --> 00:17:43,879 Speaker 1: entrepreneurs start companies, but not all entrepreneurs who have PhDs 299 00:17:43,920 --> 00:17:47,479 Speaker 1: and battery science start companies. So what's been your learning 300 00:17:47,880 --> 00:17:51,199 Speaker 1: going from being an expert in the subject area right 301 00:17:51,320 --> 00:17:54,560 Speaker 1: to being able to not just use that expertise for 302 00:17:54,720 --> 00:17:58,560 Speaker 1: that subject, but also have business skills alongside. I talked 303 00:17:58,560 --> 00:18:02,280 Speaker 1: to a lot of PhD with the aspiration of being entrepreneur, 304 00:18:02,320 --> 00:18:04,760 Speaker 1: and I think a lot about my own experience too. 305 00:18:04,880 --> 00:18:09,600 Speaker 1: I think the pH experience is actually really both magical 306 00:18:09,640 --> 00:18:13,040 Speaker 1: and frustrating. It's a test of character. You know, you're 307 00:18:13,520 --> 00:18:18,160 Speaker 1: required to spend years studying things and ultimately becoming an 308 00:18:18,160 --> 00:18:20,560 Speaker 1: expert at something, and so that requires putting in the 309 00:18:20,640 --> 00:18:24,240 Speaker 1: time and putting a lot of effort. My PAH experience 310 00:18:24,359 --> 00:18:28,360 Speaker 1: was that I was the ultimate owner of my project. 311 00:18:28,560 --> 00:18:31,679 Speaker 1: There was nobody else who was going to drive this 312 00:18:31,720 --> 00:18:34,040 Speaker 1: project forward except for me. I had to become really 313 00:18:34,040 --> 00:18:38,119 Speaker 1: self reliant, really innovative and creative. But a lot of 314 00:18:38,240 --> 00:18:41,280 Speaker 1: motivation had to come from within. People who get their 315 00:18:41,320 --> 00:18:45,120 Speaker 1: PhD are actually inherently really driven. They've got a lot 316 00:18:45,119 --> 00:18:47,640 Speaker 1: of that motivation within them, and it's a really great 317 00:18:47,680 --> 00:18:51,800 Speaker 1: skill from an entrepreneurial standpoint. What I was really challenged 318 00:18:51,800 --> 00:18:57,600 Speaker 1: with was working together in teams and building trust with people. 319 00:18:57,800 --> 00:18:59,399 Speaker 1: I knew I didn't want to be a lone wolf, 320 00:18:59,400 --> 00:19:01,480 Speaker 1: but at the same time, I was used to doing 321 00:19:01,520 --> 00:19:04,480 Speaker 1: everything myself. When you start a company, there's just so 322 00:19:04,560 --> 00:19:06,520 Speaker 1: much to do. There's no way you can be the 323 00:19:06,560 --> 00:19:10,520 Speaker 1: one person that does everything. And so building trusts in 324 00:19:10,640 --> 00:19:13,640 Speaker 1: others and realizing, hey, there might be somebody that's even 325 00:19:13,720 --> 00:19:17,280 Speaker 1: better position to do this hard thing than me has 326 00:19:17,320 --> 00:19:21,000 Speaker 1: been a really interesting exercise over time. One of the 327 00:19:21,040 --> 00:19:24,719 Speaker 1: greatest gifts I ever I think got from that standpoint, 328 00:19:25,119 --> 00:19:28,640 Speaker 1: from an entrepreneurial standpoint, is I got pregnant four years ago. 329 00:19:28,880 --> 00:19:31,600 Speaker 1: I had a child, had to stay away on maternity 330 00:19:31,640 --> 00:19:34,479 Speaker 1: leave for a number of months, and it drove me crazy, 331 00:19:34,640 --> 00:19:37,160 Speaker 1: you know, like I wanted to be here, see what's 332 00:19:37,160 --> 00:19:40,960 Speaker 1: gone on, solve problems alongside my team, but I had 333 00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:45,359 Speaker 1: to step away, I had to disengage. When I came back, 334 00:19:45,440 --> 00:19:48,160 Speaker 1: I realized, I've got an empty plate, and I can 335 00:19:48,280 --> 00:19:49,880 Speaker 1: choose what I can put on this plate. I don't 336 00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:52,520 Speaker 1: have to do everything. I can choose the things that 337 00:19:52,880 --> 00:19:55,000 Speaker 1: I am best leverage to do, and I can trust 338 00:19:55,040 --> 00:19:57,320 Speaker 1: that all the other things are happening. And so being 339 00:19:57,320 --> 00:20:01,680 Speaker 1: away actually showed me that the machine actually kept rolling 340 00:20:01,800 --> 00:20:04,439 Speaker 1: forward and actually the machine was working really well. So 341 00:20:04,480 --> 00:20:07,679 Speaker 1: I think that transition from being self reliant and working 342 00:20:07,720 --> 00:20:10,119 Speaker 1: on your own and being kind of successful on your 343 00:20:10,119 --> 00:20:12,480 Speaker 1: own to working in a team was one of the 344 00:20:12,560 --> 00:20:15,520 Speaker 1: major leaps that I had to go through from being 345 00:20:15,560 --> 00:20:20,480 Speaker 1: a PC student to an entrepreneur. As well as making 346 00:20:20,520 --> 00:20:23,920 Speaker 1: finish batteries, Christine tells us in the factory that her 347 00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:27,000 Speaker 1: crew is shipping the materials and licensing the know how 348 00:20:27,240 --> 00:20:30,840 Speaker 1: for other manufacturers to make our print the batteries themselves. 349 00:20:31,480 --> 00:20:33,359 Speaker 1: We're in the middle of actually doing that tech trance 350 00:20:33,400 --> 00:20:37,600 Speaker 1: for two manufacturers in different countries right now. Our manufacturing 351 00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:40,760 Speaker 1: partners print labels. They literally print a label that might 352 00:20:40,760 --> 00:20:43,000 Speaker 1: go around your toy or a label that's on a 353 00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:46,560 Speaker 1: T shirt. They're used to really simple processes, and so 354 00:20:46,640 --> 00:20:49,360 Speaker 1: we've tried to make our process fit in with that 355 00:20:49,560 --> 00:20:53,320 Speaker 1: kind of workflow. You're doing something that's quite unusual where 356 00:20:53,680 --> 00:20:58,480 Speaker 1: you are essentially giving the entire process from the powder 357 00:20:58,640 --> 00:21:01,480 Speaker 1: that we looked at a way to making of the battery, 358 00:21:01,720 --> 00:21:05,480 Speaker 1: from the printing and the ceiling to somebody else to 359 00:21:05,560 --> 00:21:07,400 Speaker 1: make it. You know, how do you feel about that? Yeah, 360 00:21:07,480 --> 00:21:10,440 Speaker 1: because you have to maintain a certain level of quality, 361 00:21:10,480 --> 00:21:14,080 Speaker 1: and that's right. Yeah, so's there's a couple elements of that. 362 00:21:14,560 --> 00:21:19,680 Speaker 1: The reason why it's important to have a portable process 363 00:21:19,680 --> 00:21:22,879 Speaker 1: from start to finish is that so if our battery 364 00:21:23,280 --> 00:21:26,720 Speaker 1: is made here and the smart labels assembled, you know, 365 00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:30,760 Speaker 1: a different continent, than shipping that battery from one place 366 00:21:30,800 --> 00:21:34,960 Speaker 1: to another adds costs and complexity and time. And so 367 00:21:35,320 --> 00:21:37,160 Speaker 1: what we're seeing in the industry is that they're trying 368 00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:40,280 Speaker 1: to consolidate all that manufacturing in one place. So what 369 00:21:40,320 --> 00:21:43,840 Speaker 1: you can actually imagine is these label companies not just 370 00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:46,919 Speaker 1: you know, assembling the label, but starting from making the 371 00:21:46,960 --> 00:21:51,080 Speaker 1: batteries themselves and then ultimately assembling the whole thing under 372 00:21:51,119 --> 00:21:53,720 Speaker 1: one roof. That's not how things are done today right now. 373 00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:57,360 Speaker 1: One components made in one location, another components made another, 374 00:21:57,520 --> 00:21:59,360 Speaker 1: and then there's somebody who kind of takes those lego 375 00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:02,720 Speaker 1: blocks and assembles them together. But you know, with the 376 00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:06,560 Speaker 1: complexity of logistics and supply chains, we're finding that that's 377 00:22:06,640 --> 00:22:13,200 Speaker 1: just too complex and too costly and too vulnerable. If 378 00:22:13,240 --> 00:22:16,000 Speaker 1: you had a billboard outside your house with a message 379 00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:18,679 Speaker 1: of the world, what would it say, Keep moving forward? 380 00:22:18,960 --> 00:22:22,920 Speaker 1: You know, just keep going. I've been with this company, 381 00:22:22,960 --> 00:22:26,160 Speaker 1: but also just looking at batteries for a really long time, 382 00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:29,000 Speaker 1: and there's and people ask me all the time, like 383 00:22:29,040 --> 00:22:31,800 Speaker 1: how can you dedicate yourself and spend so much time 384 00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:35,320 Speaker 1: doing one thing and focus on one thing? And there's 385 00:22:35,359 --> 00:22:38,080 Speaker 1: just a lot of joy when you keep at it, 386 00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:43,600 Speaker 1: keep moving forward. That was a fascinating conversation. We're not 387 00:22:43,640 --> 00:22:45,719 Speaker 1: going to keep you for much longer, you know. Let 388 00:22:45,800 --> 00:22:48,520 Speaker 1: you go back to the assembly line and hit that goal. 389 00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:57,840 Speaker 1: Thank you so much. I keep thinking about Christine's question 390 00:22:58,119 --> 00:23:00,240 Speaker 1: because it's a question I asked when I was in 391 00:23:00,280 --> 00:23:04,000 Speaker 1: grad school finishing my PhD. What does happen to research? 392 00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:07,840 Speaker 1: Where does it go? Too often? It just gets published 393 00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:11,680 Speaker 1: in a journal and is never heard of again. Christine 394 00:23:11,720 --> 00:23:14,840 Speaker 1: started this process ten years ago. The funding environment for 395 00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:20,240 Speaker 1: battery startups is easier now, especially with the Inflation Reduction Act, which, 396 00:23:20,280 --> 00:23:22,200 Speaker 1: by the way, you can hear more about in our 397 00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:26,960 Speaker 1: other episodes with alizad Lea Stokes and Bill Gates. Thanks 398 00:23:26,960 --> 00:23:30,560 Speaker 1: for listening to Zero. If you liked this episode, please rate, review, 399 00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:34,480 Speaker 1: and subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. We've had some 400 00:23:34,640 --> 00:23:37,760 Speaker 1: lovely reviews from listeners recently, so thank you to everyone 401 00:23:37,840 --> 00:23:40,960 Speaker 1: who's taken the time to write something. Share this with 402 00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:43,119 Speaker 1: a friend, or send it to someone who gets a 403 00:23:43,119 --> 00:23:46,560 Speaker 1: lot of packages delivered. If you've got a suggestion for 404 00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:48,879 Speaker 1: a guest or topic, or something you just want us 405 00:23:48,920 --> 00:23:51,600 Speaker 1: to look into, get in touch at zero pod at 406 00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:55,720 Speaker 1: Bloomberg dot net. Our producer is Oscar Boyd and senior 407 00:23:55,760 --> 00:23:59,400 Speaker 1: producer is Christine driscoll. Our theme music is by Wonderly 408 00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:04,880 Speaker 1: Special thanks to Banquet Wiswynathan and Kira Bindram. I'm Akshatrati 409 00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:09,880 Speaker 1: back next week.