Speaker 1: Hey guys, it's the Dog Days of May at the
Speaker 1: metior dot com. Come back here, cat, We're having a
Speaker 1: lot of extra podcast drops articles all about dogs, hunt
Speaker 1: with dogs, nothing about cats. Tune in now.
Speaker 2: If this is the me Eater podcast coming at you, shirtless, severely,
Speaker 2: bug bitten, and in my case, underwear listening podcast, you
Speaker 2: can't predict anything.
Speaker 1: The Meat Eater Podcast is brought to you by first Light.
Speaker 1: Whether you're checking trail cams, hanging deer stands, or scouting
Speaker 1: for ELK, First Light has performance apparel to support every
Speaker 1: hunter in every environment. Check it out at first light
Speaker 1: dot com. F I R S T L I t
Speaker 1: E dot com. Join Today by Jefferson Fisher. I'm excited
Speaker 1: you're here, man. You know, it was mostly excited to
Speaker 1: hear is Krin listen to this?
Speaker 3: You know?
Speaker 1: Do you know this story?
Speaker 3: I kind of just told him, but she knew.
Speaker 1: I was like, Hey, I want to get this, dude,
Speaker 1: Jefferson Fisher on and so it's in her mind and
Speaker 1: in her notes. Meanwhile, she's listening to a podcast what's
Speaker 1: it called Diary Diary of a CEO, and you're on it.
Speaker 1: But she doesn't make the connection. She likes it so
Speaker 1: much she listens to it twice and shares it with people,
Speaker 1: and then one day she's like, oh, wow, that's the
Speaker 1: dude we're having on.
Speaker 4: I thought there were too Jefferson Fisher.
Speaker 5: Yeah, there's a lot of us, tons of us.
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, we're always like kicking around so many names.
Speaker 1: It's hard, you know what I mean. Yeah, we got like,
Speaker 1: oh what about you know, maybe this guy be cool,
Speaker 1: this is whatever. So she's like sort of in her head,
Speaker 1: is this thing I asked about when your book comes out? Yes,
Speaker 1: and then at the same time she's listening to you,
Speaker 1: and then one day has a like, oh that's the dude.
Speaker 5: Well thank you Krin.
Speaker 3: Yeah you bet.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I'm honored to be here. This is the one
Speaker 5: like I was super nerding out about that I got
Speaker 5: to be on this podcast.
Speaker 1: Jefferson Fisher is a by training a trial attorney from Texas,
Speaker 1: but he just published his first book called The Next
Speaker 1: Conversation Argue Less talk more. He's a hunter. I got
Speaker 1: turned on to him. We have we're with the same
Speaker 1: literary agency right Europa. That's right now where I've been
Speaker 1: with Mark at Europa. As I was just turning earlier
Speaker 1: for over twenty years.
Speaker 5: Yeah. Mark is fantastic, and.
Speaker 1: He's the one that kind of like found me and
Speaker 1: moved me from magazine writing into books.
Speaker 5: So he was the one. Oh yeah, okay. So Tess,
Speaker 5: who is kind of his proteges works under him, is
Speaker 5: the one who found me. And she emailed me, just
Speaker 5: a cold email, and I'd had several others, but this
Speaker 5: whatever reason, I read hers and the subject line was literally,
Speaker 5: hello from a literary agent, like that was their subject line.
Speaker 1: Let's pick up line exactly.
Speaker 5: And so I had seen a few and I looked
Speaker 5: it up and I saw, of course you go to
Speaker 5: see they represent and I saw your name and I
Speaker 5: was like, no way, And because your name was on it,
Speaker 5: I said, yes, I'll I'll go with y'all because I mean.
Speaker 1: Like a commission exactly.
Speaker 5: You need to talk to Mark about it, honestly, Yeah,
Speaker 5: because I pretty much said anything was Meat Eater. I
Speaker 5: was buying. I think I bought every book. I've watched
Speaker 5: every episode. Yeah, I got I got the bench Maade
Speaker 5: Meat Eater, and I like I was, I was like yeah,
Speaker 5: man uh. And so it was a huge influence of
Speaker 5: like when I talked to Tess and I was said,
Speaker 5: y'all really represent uh Ranella and she's like, oh yeah,
Speaker 5: he's He's great, and then talked about Danielle I followed
Speaker 5: her before all of her cooking stuff and yeah, and
Speaker 5: so to be here is just super full circle for me. Man,
Speaker 5: that's awesome. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I got turned on to Jefferson about watching his that
Speaker 1: this fellow we talked about shared his video series with me.
Speaker 1: Where you sit in your car, Well, tell what you
Speaker 1: do talk about your video say.
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, so I I this.
Speaker 1: Is good because let me everyone listening this, this is
Speaker 1: highly We're going to demonstrate, this is highly relevant to
Speaker 1: your life. How to communicate. Okay, but also we're going
Speaker 1: to learn today how to communicate in the trickiest hunting
Speaker 1: and fishing scenarios that people encounter, so how to navigate
Speaker 1: the awkward parts. But also you can use this. You
Speaker 1: don't call them tricks, do you?
Speaker 3: No?
Speaker 1: Never, You're not like playing mind games.
Speaker 5: No, I mean I guess you could say they are.
Speaker 1: I mean you'll use these tricks on your wife too.
Speaker 5: Yeah, if you and just don't share this episode with her, yeah,
Speaker 5: oh yeah don't.
Speaker 1: Yeah that's a good point man. Yeah, if you're listening
Speaker 1: with your wife in a car right now, change it
Speaker 1: exactly because later, when you start influencing her heavy duty,
Speaker 1: she's gonna know that. She's gonna be like, you're doing
Speaker 1: that from the podcast.
Speaker 6: It's interesting because if you're if you're writing on this subject,
Speaker 6: you do don't want your reach to expand so far
Speaker 6: that your readers are using it on themselves and then
Speaker 6: all of a sudden it becomes resolete.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 5: I get a lot of comments of people saying, I'm
Speaker 5: using this on my husband or my wife, and I
Speaker 5: don't tell them, and so I'll have people that will say,
Speaker 5: or a couple. I'll have like a mom or a
Speaker 5: dad say I'm using this on my wife. And they
Speaker 5: asked me the day like are you is that from
Speaker 5: that attorney guy?
Speaker 1: Exactly?
Speaker 5: Like I saw that video too, Like I know what
Speaker 5: you're I know what you're trying to do.
Speaker 4: All I can think about is the these aren't the
Speaker 4: druids you're looking for?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 4: Is there a hand mode gesture involved? Subtle on?
Speaker 5: I'd be honest if it was still very much the
Speaker 5: Jedi one that you're using just.
Speaker 1: Right in motion. Yeah. So the video, Yeah, the videos
Speaker 1: you made? Yeah, I make videos.
Speaker 5: I started making videos in my car, so full time
Speaker 5: practicing trial attorney, and I left a big defense from
Speaker 5: that was at and then started my own and I thought, well,
Speaker 5: I need to be on social media, and so I
Speaker 5: started making videos and I thought, I need to have
Speaker 5: the perfect light's the perfect camera, and so I thought,
Speaker 5: I'll just I got my truck, I got my car,
Speaker 5: kids car seat in the back. I'll just make it
Speaker 5: where I'm at. And uh, I thought, well, what I
Speaker 5: need to do. I just tell them what I feel like.
Speaker 5: I know that's how to help people argue and communicate.
Speaker 5: And so I got my phone and said how to
Speaker 5: Argue like a Lawyer, Part one, and then by like
Speaker 5: the fourth video, it had gone viral and then it
Speaker 5: blew up that quick, yeah, really quick, five million followers
Speaker 5: I have. Yeah, I think we're today. I think I
Speaker 5: think we'll hit six million today on Instagram and we
Speaker 5: have about twelve million total on across the platform.
Speaker 1: And obviously at arguing, Yeah, what the whole world's gonna
Speaker 1: be good at arguing?
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah exactly, Yeah, everybody's could be great. So yeah,
Speaker 5: so I've been doing it for a little over two
Speaker 5: years now.
Speaker 4: You started eating video with something catchy like have you
Speaker 4: recently been exposed to that's exactly right.
Speaker 5: Okay, yeah, yeah, messima as best to solid Yeah, exactly
Speaker 5: exactly call this, that's exactly right.
Speaker 1: Your But your video series wasn't meant to The objective
Speaker 1: wasn't to drum up lawyer business.
Speaker 5: No, it never was. And so I found that when
Speaker 5: I was talking about the law, like the first few
Speaker 5: videos I made just to kind of see how Instagram work,
Speaker 5: because it used to not. They didn't always have video.
Speaker 5: I mean video was only to compete with TikTok, and
Speaker 5: I didn't really like it. I just I felt like
Speaker 5: it was trying to sell stuff to everybody. So when
Speaker 5: I started my how to argue like lawyer, it would
Speaker 5: be like how to have a difficult conversation Number one,
Speaker 5: do this too, and do this, three to do this,
Speaker 5: and then that was it. And then those just started
Speaker 5: to really people became where they would say I I
Speaker 5: binge them, where they would just go video after video
Speaker 5: after video, and I never saw any of this. I
Speaker 5: just considered this kind of a hobby and I would
Speaker 5: do it for about thirty minutes after work, between work
Speaker 5: and home, and that's how it happened.
Speaker 1: This has not doing anything. But you know I'm binging
Speaker 1: right now because my wife turned me on to it
Speaker 1: last night. Is this dude that this dude that sings,
Speaker 1: he does like a male and female role of singing
Speaker 1: the most like graphic, awkward, tender exchange.
Speaker 4: Exactly who you're talking So it's.
Speaker 1: So it's so graphic that I'm not going to name
Speaker 1: yeah who he is because I don't want to be complicit.
Speaker 5: Well, you gonna have to share that with you because
Speaker 5: that was so funny.
Speaker 1: I love some of these like very very uh the
Speaker 1: unusual distinct requests.
Speaker 5: Oh, there's no doubt, there's no doubt. And what I
Speaker 5: love so much about this it's just not the videos
Speaker 5: that are great now, it's the comments are hilarious, Like
Speaker 5: you'll go to content just to read the comments. You know,
Speaker 5: people are hilarious. That's my favorite part about But that's
Speaker 5: how we got started in all of this, was just
Speaker 5: the videos in the car.
Speaker 1: What was your first exposure to hunting as a kid.
Speaker 5: Ah, My dad would take me probably six or seven,
Speaker 5: go duck hunting, put me on his shoulders while he
Speaker 5: was waiting. So we down in Texas, down in Texas,
Speaker 5: so we have a few different properties, and this one
Speaker 5: is Touches. Both the Angelina and the Naches River are
Speaker 5: there below Lake Sam Rayburn.
Speaker 1: Is that how you say it from if you're from there,
Speaker 1: Naches Nachus?
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 4: In Montana, we say yeah, what's.
Speaker 5: Inn e c h Yes, yeh.
Speaker 1: I only care about what people for me. The final
Speaker 1: word is what is the dude that lives there? Yeah?
Speaker 5: Exactly, Yeah, being Angelina and n Yeah. Yeah. And so
Speaker 5: there's a it's just a marsh out there, and so
Speaker 5: we would he would take me and we'd shoot or
Speaker 5: he would shoot uh wood ducks and then really yeah,
Speaker 5: and then I'll get taken to go goose hun. We
Speaker 5: go goose hunt every year, almost every year of my life,
Speaker 5: we've gone goose something down in Eagle Lake, which is
Speaker 5: not too far from Katie Houston, west of Houston, big
Speaker 5: Rice Fields. And I was kind of the substitute dog,
Speaker 5: you know, I was did they go find out exactly?
Speaker 5: And there was nothing more exciting. I mean, I would
Speaker 5: just take off to go finally and so come back
Speaker 5: with the geese. And then I think starting about eight
Speaker 5: was the first time I actually started deer hunting with
Speaker 5: the rifle and so early yeah, wait, way early, and
Speaker 5: then I can I switched to bow hunting probably when
Speaker 5: I was about fourteen to fifteen, switch switched. Yeah, hung
Speaker 5: up the gun, no, I mean, yeah, yeah, that's that's
Speaker 5: the difference.
Speaker 1: That's my first question. Avid bow hunters. No, not to
Speaker 1: tack on age like people the only hunt with the bow. Yeah,
Speaker 1: My first question is, yeah, like a felony, you got
Speaker 1: you got something, you got something.
Speaker 6: You just run down all the questions on the four
Speaker 6: four seventh. Exactly have you ever renounced the United States citizenship?
Speaker 5: Yeah, exactly, No, no, not. I did not hang it
Speaker 5: up for good. No, I just that was the first
Speaker 5: time I really took up the bow and had a
Speaker 5: whole lot of fun with it when I was probably
Speaker 5: about fourteen fifteen, raight before I started driving.
Speaker 1: So that's where you're at now. Yeah, bo, your avid
Speaker 1: boat hunter now, yeah, bow.
Speaker 5: Hunter for sure, but also a gun gets the job done.
Speaker 5: So I'm not one of those that My grandfather is
Speaker 5: very much only bow he got to wear because he
Speaker 5: couldn't pull it back because he had shoulder surgery. He
Speaker 5: did it with his teeth.
Speaker 1: Oh want you guys buy him across bow. That's what
Speaker 1: we did. We did.
Speaker 5: We got him cross bow eventually because he was losing
Speaker 5: to me teeth. He started losing to me teeth, and
Speaker 5: so we're like, I said, Papa John, we got to
Speaker 5: do something. So now he's now he's got a crossbow
Speaker 5: that he steps on and pulls it back, and so
Speaker 5: he's one of these he'll hunt un till he can't
Speaker 5: hunt anymore. We actually just had a goose hunt up
Speaker 5: in Lubbock, and that was the first time that he
Speaker 5: didn't get it. He just couldn't get his gun up. Yeah,
Speaker 5: and that was like, really that was really hard. Yeah,
Speaker 5: that was like really really hard on him to realize
Speaker 5: he couldn't get it up fast enough. M So, but yeah,
Speaker 5: hunting has been part of my home up.
Speaker 4: Sounds like he's a good hunter though, because we recently
Speaker 4: hunted with a bunch of guys all in a big
Speaker 4: field set up this winter and there are two older
Speaker 4: guys out there, yea, and they were having a hard
Speaker 4: time being on time, right, But eventually they were like, well,
Speaker 4: I'll screw the rest of you. And you'd look down
Speaker 4: the line. Everybody's all covered up, and you'd look down
Speaker 4: the line and they'd just be up like that.
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's awesome.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 5: See, he he was definitely the one that in our
Speaker 5: family that kept set the tone for the hunting. And yeah,
Speaker 5: he's done. I mean every hunt in Africa he's done,
Speaker 5: Moose up in Alaska, he's done. Bear, he's done. I
Speaker 5: mean he's caribou, you name it. That's like his that's
Speaker 5: his thing.
Speaker 1: I like that you began your book. It's bold you
Speaker 1: begin your book with a hunting story, right.
Speaker 5: I was curious how that was going to be taken.
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, because you could do it and a lot
Speaker 1: of guys would be like, they'd be like, wow, I
Speaker 1: don't want to do that because it might turn people
Speaker 1: on exactly, which you know whatever. But yeah, So I
Speaker 1: always like to applaud people who are just like, hang
Speaker 1: it out there. I had a guy I still want
Speaker 1: to say, Well, I guess I could say his name.
Speaker 5: Now.
Speaker 1: I had a guy one time call me. He was
Speaker 1: married to a very famous singer.
Speaker 5: Okay, what genre did he make? Videos?
Speaker 1: On the under exchange he called He's trying to get
Speaker 1: hold me one time, like passes the messages you want
Speaker 1: to sew it's just like to tell me and he
Speaker 1: tells me flat out. He's a closeted hunter and he
Speaker 1: says he has a game room that you wouldn't know
Speaker 1: was in his house unless he took it to it
Speaker 1: because he can't let anybody know because the business he's
Speaker 1: in and the business's wife's in.
Speaker 5: Wow. Well, I mean I can understand it, but yeah,
Speaker 5: that's the I mean, I can, I can relate to
Speaker 5: that to a little bit, but I don't.
Speaker 1: Want to betray his trust. Yeah, with one phone call,
Speaker 1: He's like he had to tell somebody. I was like,
Speaker 1: I kept thinking there was gonna be like a thing
Speaker 1: in the end, like do you want to be a
Speaker 1: pop singer?
Speaker 4: I don't know.
Speaker 3: You got to put out a hotline confessions to Snake
Speaker 3: so people feel better.
Speaker 1: I like to pull a trigger now and then I
Speaker 1: mean I understand, buddy.
Speaker 7: That satisfying for anything.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I was puzzled though I thought there I
Speaker 1: was just waiting for I thought there's more to the story,
Speaker 1: but I'm not being it. I gotta tell. I gotta
Speaker 1: tell two quick stories I think are pretty funny. You'll
Speaker 1: have to bear with because they're about a guy you
Speaker 1: don't know what everybody else knows them. That's fine, you know,
Speaker 1: Doug Darren I just can't. Every year I take my
Speaker 1: kids since my little boy was four, My fourteen year
Speaker 1: old was four. The first time he went there was
Speaker 1: awesome to hunt Turkey's at Doug's place. Now we go
Speaker 1: during the kiddie season. It's two day long kids season,
Speaker 1: so we go over here. We're just at Doug's place
Speaker 1: and Doug anybody's hung out with them, like is like, uh,
Speaker 1: his adamant that people like he backs in his car
Speaker 1: no matter what. He doesn't call it backing and pointing out.
Speaker 3: Yeah, when I didn't on his property, he like called
Speaker 3: me out for it.
Speaker 1: That was the first time I discovered, you know what
Speaker 1: it comes from. So his his great Tampa or know,
Speaker 1: his dad got attacked by his own chainsaw one time
Speaker 1: and had to drive himself to like het himself in
Speaker 1: the brisket with the chainsaw good and drove himself to
Speaker 1: a hospital. So Doug's telling he's telling my kids the story.
Speaker 1: And even and even though Doug's dad manages to get
Speaker 1: in his car and drive all the way to the hospital,
Speaker 1: Doug explains my kids, if he had the backed in,
Speaker 1: he'd be dead, wouldn't It's like Doug, And then he
Speaker 1: like got in the car and made it to the hospital.
Speaker 1: But backing out would have been the end of that
Speaker 1: would have been.
Speaker 6: I'm sure that it was the observation of the physician
Speaker 6: that treated him.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I was like, thank god, it's fine to tell
Speaker 1: my kids to back in, but you don't need to
Speaker 1: like at he had backed in, he'd be dead.
Speaker 7: I associate that with volunteer firemen. All the volunteer firemen,
Speaker 7: I know they back in because if they get a
Speaker 7: fire call, they want to be out of there as
Speaker 7: quick as possible.
Speaker 5: Yeah. So somebody who one of my best friends, he's
Speaker 5: now the CEO of the my law firm, and he
Speaker 5: always backs in. That comes from law enforcement. He's been
Speaker 5: a law enforcement his whole life. So that's just ingrained
Speaker 5: to him to.
Speaker 1: I try to do it. I try to do it,
Speaker 1: but I get lazy now. But you know, like about it.
Speaker 1: Either way, you got to back out at some point.
Speaker 5: I I it's like you just you either do it
Speaker 5: at the beginning or you do it at the end.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'll try to like do that the other point.
Speaker 1: This is the end of my my things about Doug.
Speaker 1: But Doug, my buddy Dog's got a buddy keeper and Uh.
Speaker 1: They're talking about another guy getting caught up by his
Speaker 1: own chainsaw, and this guy calls Doug.
Speaker 5: A lot of chang, a lot of incidents, yeah.
Speaker 4: Woodlow management, country.
Speaker 1: Yeah, everything everything is like cutting his cutting that another
Speaker 1: guy gets hurt by his chainsaw and he calls like
Speaker 1: dog finds out, but Doug's not around, and Doug's like
Speaker 1: Keeper's all around, always around. So he calls Keefer to
Speaker 1: notify about the chainsaw injury, and Keifer had a great quote.
Speaker 1: He says, I'm always around, but I'm never quite there.
Speaker 5: That's good. That's good. That needs to be on like
Speaker 5: a magnet or a bumper sticker.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's great.
Speaker 5: That's a great line. Always around but not always there.
Speaker 1: Okay, So your book, Yeah, first book, the next conversation,
Speaker 1: argue less, talk more. I got it. I gotta this
Speaker 1: is a I haven't read it.
Speaker 5: That's fine.
Speaker 1: I read the beginning to tell people cause I feel
Speaker 1: like a lot of times people don't come out come clean.
Speaker 5: Oh yeah, I've been on lots of podcasts and you know,
Speaker 5: good and well, they've never they haven't even cracked that open.
Speaker 5: It's fine, not a problem.
Speaker 1: Nah, how'd you like so you try to take all
Speaker 1: you learned, yeah, and put it in there some of it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it was walking through the book. Yeah.
Speaker 4: The it kind of has to be all you learned,
Speaker 4: because I keep looking at that title and trying to
Speaker 4: make a sequel out of it, and it's hard.
Speaker 5: Yeah right right, Yeah, it's definitive. The conversation after that one,
Speaker 5: the next next conversation, still arguing, Yeah, exact question mark, Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 5: the conversation after the next one. Yeah. So I'm a
Speaker 5: social media that where when I was posting these videos,
Speaker 5: people would leave a comment say, you need to write
Speaker 5: a book, Please write a book, Please write a book. Oh,
Speaker 5: And I thought, well, I guess I'll write a book.
Speaker 5: I mean, I was googling how do you write a book?
Speaker 5: And then Test came along. I mean, that's as simple
Speaker 5: as I say. When you write that in it talks
Speaker 5: about self publishing, really, and I thought I was going
Speaker 5: to self publish it, and then Test came along and
Speaker 5: saved me, and Mark came and saved me. And so
Speaker 5: the idea was I need to I wanted to provide
Speaker 5: the people that follow me my framework with how to
Speaker 5: communicate how I do it, my thoughts on it, so
Speaker 5: that if they want to go and not need me.
Speaker 5: There you go. You don't have to watch my content anymore.
Speaker 5: You got the you got the book. But it's not
Speaker 5: just a summary of every every one of my hit
Speaker 5: viral videos or every one of that. It's not just
Speaker 5: a regurgitation. So it lays out three different rules, talks
Speaker 5: about how to say things with control, say things with confidence,
Speaker 5: and say it to connect. And the idea is that
Speaker 5: people weren't watching my stuff. They handled the last conversation.
Speaker 5: They were watching that the change how they were going
Speaker 5: to handle the next conversation. And that's how this whole
Speaker 5: thing kind of came about. How to help people argue
Speaker 5: less and talk more.
Speaker 1: Tell me about the three things, Yeah, the three like like,
Speaker 1: give me a summation of the.
Speaker 5: What you mean by the whatever the hell you just
Speaker 5: laid out? Yeah? Yeah, whatever that is?
Speaker 1: I can't remember.
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, it's easy to forget. The rule want say
Speaker 5: it with control is all about, rather than trying to
Speaker 5: control the other person, things that you can do with
Speaker 5: within your own body to help control yourself, you know,
Speaker 5: just kind of control. Regulate your own emotions before you
Speaker 5: get into it, not excite the moment, make it worse.
Speaker 5: Same things with confidence is learning about how to find
Speaker 5: your assertive voice. You have people that might overapologize or
Speaker 5: find ways to be really hesitant with their words. This
Speaker 5: is more about how to lean into it and be
Speaker 5: more assertive when you communicate. Three is how to say
Speaker 5: things to connect, which is all about how to handle
Speaker 5: difficult conversations. How do you deliver bad news? How do
Speaker 5: you tell someone though and you're not really sure how
Speaker 5: to deal with that? How do you deal with these
Speaker 5: conversations that you're dreading, you know, while you're brushing your
Speaker 5: teeth and driving there, and you know you got to
Speaker 5: have it, but you don't know how. And so this
Speaker 5: gives a good framework for all of that. I like
Speaker 5: to say that some people might teach you how to
Speaker 5: play an instrument. I teach you the I give you
Speaker 5: the sheet music, I tell you what chords to play.
Speaker 5: That's kind of how.
Speaker 8: Is this Are those rules things that all trial lawyers learn?
Speaker 8: Or is this stuff you learned along the way?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 5: Great question. Now this is law school didn't teach you
Speaker 5: squat about reading. People only teaches how to read the law,
Speaker 5: how to apply case law to certain facts in spot issues. Uh, Now,
Speaker 5: trial trials. Courtroom certainly can give you a lot of
Speaker 5: training and communication. How do you handle conflict? Because everything
Speaker 5: you do you're being watched. You'll probably like this. So
Speaker 5: a lot of your really good attorneys, the ones that
Speaker 5: let's just say make a lot of money, they do
Speaker 5: really well. They won't wear their Rolex and drive their
Speaker 5: Mercedes to the courtroom. They have they have another The
Speaker 5: good ones wear they have a different truck. They have
Speaker 5: like an old beat up eighty seven. Yeah yeah, yeah,
Speaker 5: yeah yeah, And so they wear like the second hand suit.
Speaker 5: They really because as soon as you pull into the
Speaker 5: parking lot, jurors, perspective, jurors, they're all watching you the
Speaker 5: whole way. So if you come in and you have
Speaker 5: like a whole team of five pair of legals, it
Speaker 5: just means the Johnny Cochran approach. Yeah exactly. So you
Speaker 5: have people that kid, oh yeah, because as soon as
Speaker 5: you walk in, they're looking at everything. If you if
Speaker 5: you exactly, So if you come in with a whole
Speaker 5: bunch of people, they're gonna assume you have a whole
Speaker 5: bunch of money. That means your client has put a
Speaker 5: whole lot of money, which means they're trying to hide
Speaker 5: something because they're afraid of this case. So it's it's
Speaker 5: very very tacticals. Soon as you and it starts in
Speaker 5: the parking lot, it really does. But so any anytime
Speaker 5: you go into the courtroom, you're being watched. You have
Speaker 5: your twelve jurors or maybe six if you're in a
Speaker 5: county court. You got the judge, the bailiff, the court reporter,
Speaker 5: opposing counsel pair, legals, people that are back in the audience.
Speaker 5: Everything you do is watched. KA nothing to do with it,
Speaker 5: don't matter. I communicated, but I'm just glad to be here.
Speaker 1: I want to do whatever well I want. I want
Speaker 1: to get your quick feedback from something that happening when
Speaker 1: I was eighteen years old. If this is normal or not.
Speaker 1: I tell the story all the time. I never asked
Speaker 1: someone who would know I had jury duty. And it's
Speaker 1: a it's a crack cocaine trial, criminal trial. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: they're they're pushing for a felony or like a sorry,
Speaker 1: a life sentence for a crack dealer. We go through
Speaker 1: this whole trial and it's like wire tabs and translators,
Speaker 1: you know, and you make it on the jury. I'm
Speaker 1: on the jury. Yeah, I sat through the whole thing. Man,
Speaker 1: that was fascinating. I loved it. So what they had
Speaker 1: to prove is that he had sold a certain threshold
Speaker 1: of crack and they had bought the undercover guys had
Speaker 1: bought like ninety percent of what they needed, okay, just
Speaker 1: so all they needed to do was through money and
Speaker 1: all that other like there has to have been another
Speaker 1: whatever pound. I don't know what the hell was, I remember, right,
Speaker 1: So the whole logic was like, here's all the what
Speaker 1: we bought, and if he sold ten percent more through
Speaker 1: his career, he would have trafficked x quantity of crack, right,
Speaker 1: And we come back very quickly with a guilty verdict.
Speaker 1: The judge was this dude named Mike COBBSA. I'll always
Speaker 1: remember that.
Speaker 5: Okay.
Speaker 1: He says, we do the whole thing. They take the
Speaker 1: guy away, and he says, I'd like you to hang
Speaker 1: tight a minute to the jury, all right, And he says,
Speaker 1: if any of you has any feeling of remorse about
Speaker 1: what you just did, I want to tell you a
Speaker 1: couple of things about that guy and tells us all
Speaker 1: the non admissible evidence, all the double jeopardy ship. Yeah,
Speaker 1: is that normal.
Speaker 5: Very normal. Okay, yeah, it's normal. It is fascinating, it's normal.
Speaker 1: And so he said, and I'm gonna tell you they
Speaker 1: did buy more than they needed.
Speaker 5: Hell yeah yeah.
Speaker 1: And he had this and had that. Yeah, and he's like,
Speaker 1: whatever shot his girlfriend exactly?
Speaker 5: Yeah, any any of it. Yeah, it's very very common.
Speaker 5: And so, and it's criminal trial and civil trial. We
Speaker 5: get to ask questions of the jurors. So after the
Speaker 5: trial is over, if we want, we can ask the panel.
Speaker 5: So we can go and ask them, how do you
Speaker 5: like to trial? What what evidence did you find? We
Speaker 5: know how you room? You know what what what exactly?
Speaker 5: And they and they're free to answer or not u
Speaker 5: But often you have the jurors will come to you
Speaker 5: after the trial, after you're done whatever they've they've ruled
Speaker 5: judgment on it, and then you can get to ask
Speaker 5: them what what piece of evidence did you like, would
Speaker 5: you not like, would you find most compelling? And so
Speaker 5: you'll have some that come up and hug you know,
Speaker 5: your client, just I just want I'm so sorry for
Speaker 5: all you've been through. There's people who hate the other side,
Speaker 5: I mean, or they might hate you. I mean, you've
Speaker 5: never you never know, but yeah, you can definitely talk
Speaker 5: to them.
Speaker 1: So it helps you hone your craft too.
Speaker 5: Big time because you think that the one piece of
Speaker 5: evidence that you thought was so crucial, like no, I
Speaker 5: got to get this in. They didn't care a lock
Speaker 5: about it, didn't even enter their system. They were focused
Speaker 5: on this and you had no idea.
Speaker 1: They're watching your watch.
Speaker 5: Oh yeah, yeah, every little thing because like, for example,
Speaker 5: if let's say I need to other side objects to
Speaker 5: some evidence, and it's what they would call it a
Speaker 5: quick maybe objection battle in front of the jury, which
Speaker 5: you typically don't want to do. But when they say
Speaker 5: can we approach the bench?
Speaker 1: You say that again, I understand. Yeah.
Speaker 5: So let's say I need to object to a piece
Speaker 5: of evidence that's coming in, so objection your honor, whatever
Speaker 5: it is, relevance here, say you name it, and you
Speaker 5: typically will say can we approach, meaning we want to
Speaker 5: go to the bench and have this discover this discussion
Speaker 5: because we don't want the jury to hear it. Jurors
Speaker 5: don't like that because it feels like how come you
Speaker 5: get y'all get to talk and we don't get to
Speaker 5: hear it, like like, oh, what are y'all talking about?
Speaker 5: And they don't. They don't like that. So when you
Speaker 5: have an attorney who's objecting a lot, it's going, what
Speaker 5: are you what are you hiding? What are you not
Speaker 5: wanting me to hear? They'll they'll count that against them.
Speaker 1: Or like, even though the judge says, hey, never mind
Speaker 1: this exactly, even though the judge says specifically they're going
Speaker 1: to object to that, don't pay attention to it.
Speaker 5: They absolutely pay attention to it. And then you watch
Speaker 5: how the people leave when.
Speaker 1: You say to your kids, don't listen to what me
Speaker 1: and mom are going to say.
Speaker 5: Exactly that's exactly right. And so when you leave when
Speaker 5: the judge makes his ruling. Now, it could be we
Speaker 5: could have out in front. I don't have to approach
Speaker 5: the bench. We could just talk. But as soon as
Speaker 5: we're coming back, if you look defeated or you look mad,
Speaker 5: you look upset, let's objected to something and I lost,
Speaker 5: the other side's going to go okay, whatever is about
Speaker 5: to be said, it's going to hurt their case. Like
Speaker 5: they pick up on it even more so you have
Speaker 5: to be really strategic about if it's a fact that
Speaker 5: hurts you, often it's better to just let it in don't.
Speaker 5: Don't try and fight it, because they'll most likely won't
Speaker 5: even pay attention. After lunch. Somebody just had Mexican food.
Speaker 5: They have text mechs on there. You know, somebody's nod
Speaker 5: and somebody's writing notes. The other person's looking off like
Speaker 5: you never know. Like a teacher, you typically don't want
Speaker 5: teachers on your jury, like when we're picking jurors, because
Speaker 5: they'll they whole class. They'll they'll say, well, no if
Speaker 5: you watch the X, Y and Z, and then they
Speaker 5: want they corral everybody in the in the room and
Speaker 5: so they start to teach. Uh and uh. If if
Speaker 5: a teacher is for you, that's the best thing. If
Speaker 5: a teachers against you, you're cooked. You're absolutely cooked. Yeah,
Speaker 5: it's funny how that that works.
Speaker 1: Hmmm. I feel like asking you for hot tips on
Speaker 1: how to get out to jury duty for people that's
Speaker 1: called the entire American.
Speaker 5: Yeah, it is anti American. I mean pretty much. It's
Speaker 5: it's the percentage of even getting to the jury duty
Speaker 5: is very small, I mean actually getting picked, actually getting picked.
Speaker 5: I mean, I think anybody should be part of that experience.
Speaker 5: And then that's just it's a system unlike any other.
Speaker 6: I want nothing more than to serve on a jury. Yeah,
Speaker 6: I've never got I got I got a summons. And
Speaker 6: then I realized that I live because we live outside
Speaker 6: of city limits, I wasn't eligible to be in that
Speaker 6: in that uh trial, and I was just defeated.
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's rough.
Speaker 4: But loving to be on a jury disqualify him from
Speaker 4: being on a jury.
Speaker 5: No.
Speaker 1: I wonder if he said, oh no, I'm just excited
Speaker 1: to be here. I just want to be on a jury.
Speaker 5: Yeah, they like that, like that.
Speaker 6: I have a friend who's been on two incredible juries.
Speaker 6: That's cool, really good stuff.
Speaker 5: Oh yeah, I'll tell you how to get out of
Speaker 5: it if you really want to know. And there's nothing
Speaker 5: wrong with this. It's whenever the so they'll call it.
Speaker 5: In some parts of Texas they say wader, or parts
Speaker 5: of the US they say wa deer.
Speaker 1: They use French in Texas.
Speaker 5: No, in Texas we say ordiar. I call it ordre.
Speaker 5: And so what you do is you take all the jurors.
Speaker 5: Everybody's got their pink slips or whatever. They come in
Speaker 5: and it's just like a big cattle call. They're all
Speaker 5: sitting down and so the attorney's lawyers we come up
Speaker 5: and start asking questions, trying to narrow down, and we
Speaker 5: pick who we want on their jury. But it's not
Speaker 5: you can't just say, like dodgeball, I want to pick Steve,
Speaker 5: I want to pick whoever it's it's not that. It's
Speaker 5: by process of elimination. So you have to say who
Speaker 5: you don't want, and whoever is left is who's going
Speaker 5: to be on the jury. I have a number of strikes,
Speaker 5: the other person has. Another attorney has a number of strikes,
Speaker 5: And I can just strike somebody because I don't like
Speaker 5: anything about them. I can just say, oh, I got
Speaker 5: a funny feel about this person, and I strike. It
Speaker 5: can't be a discriminatory reason. But whoever's left is how
Speaker 5: they get on. So if you want to get off
Speaker 5: the jury, be very opinionated at their questions. So if
Speaker 5: they're going to ask a question of you know, how
Speaker 5: do you feel about lawsuits? And if you just answer
Speaker 5: you know, I hate lawsuits, I hate attorneys, I hate
Speaker 5: everything this whole thing, you will not get picked.
Speaker 1: Yeah that's what I figured. You could just play that game,
Speaker 1: or or you just don't even care if someone's guilty
Speaker 1: or not, if they've been accused of a crime hang.
Speaker 5: Them, yeah, I'm telling you yeah, yeah, yeah. Or on
Speaker 5: the civil side, meaning the non criminal side, if it's
Speaker 5: you know, there's way too many lawsuits in the world,
Speaker 5: or you know, I think everybody should just I don't.
Speaker 5: I hate big companies. You're going to get off the
Speaker 5: jury because somebody's going to say you're too opinionated already,
Speaker 5: you're not sharing showing that you're fair and impartial, like uh,
Speaker 5: and this kind of relates to my world.
Speaker 1: I had.
Speaker 5: This is probably about year and a half back. I'm
Speaker 5: taking Vordaire and I'm asking my questions. Is a motor
Speaker 5: vehicle case, and I go sit down. The defence attorney
Speaker 5: stands up and he has his you know, his readers,
Speaker 5: and he's asking his questions and he there's the first
Speaker 5: time I've ever heard anybody ask this, he says. Anybody
Speaker 5: here follow mister Fisher's uh is a social media anybody
Speaker 5: follows social media, and probably about sixty percent of the
Speaker 5: hands we really yeah, I mean, and I never expected
Speaker 5: any of this, Or you're like, how.
Speaker 4: Many of you know I have my book?
Speaker 5: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, And so I got
Speaker 5: signed copies of the truck right exactly, yeah, yeah, and
Speaker 5: so this is anyway, and so he was kind of
Speaker 5: taken back. I was taken back, and I remember looking
Speaker 5: at my client like I didn't expect that either. And
Speaker 5: so because he asked that question, you then have to
Speaker 5: show that each person could be fair and impartial. So
Speaker 5: even if you're related to somebody in the trial, you
Speaker 5: still have the show can you be fair and impartial?
Speaker 5: And so he goes starts going down with every person
Speaker 5: who raised their hand. Can you be fair and impartial?
Speaker 5: Some people go, oh, yeah, yeah, I can still you know,
Speaker 5: take the evidence as it comes, no problem. Well then
Speaker 5: he got to this one lady, this this sweet little lady,
Speaker 5: and he said, man, can you think you can be
Speaker 5: fair and impartial? And she said, no, sir, I don't
Speaker 5: believe I could. And uh he goes He goes, uh
Speaker 5: and uh why would that be, which he should not
Speaker 5: have aascinated. He should have just said well, thank you,
Speaker 5: ma'am and gone on to the next one. And she goes, well,
Speaker 5: you know what, I just watched every one of his videos.
Speaker 5: He is so kind and and genuine, and I think
Speaker 5: if if he has his case with his client, it's
Speaker 5: a real case.
Speaker 1: And then there are several.
Speaker 5: In the audience, you know in the panel who like
Speaker 5: shook their head like yeah, I kind of agree and
Speaker 5: he and he just goes very much. And so we
Speaker 5: went on continue on, and I was like trying not
Speaker 5: the bust out laughing, and we settled the case about
Speaker 5: thirty minutes later. Yeah, that just goes the show. I
Speaker 5: never expected that. Yeah, or I'll have a judge at
Speaker 5: the end of a hearing that I've never been in
Speaker 5: front of before. As we're both leaving with the other attorney,
Speaker 5: he'll say, mister Fisher, I like what you're doing?
Speaker 1: You know that on my wife? Yeah, exactly. Yeah, we
Speaker 1: had a trial tourney right in one time. Amazing on
Speaker 1: some of the details. But he was sharing with us
Speaker 1: that he was doing jury selection, and he didn't tell
Speaker 1: us if he wanted he wanted to be able to
Speaker 1: identify any hunters in the jury. He never said if
Speaker 1: you wanted to get him in or out. But he
Speaker 1: also said he didn't want his logic to be understood
Speaker 1: by the other side. Interesting and he wrote in because
Speaker 1: he said, I asked, do any of you listen to
Speaker 1: the Meat Eater podcast?
Speaker 5: Oh, that's a good way to ask.
Speaker 1: But he never gave me any of the details like
Speaker 1: did he want him in or out?
Speaker 5: He probably it depends depends. So historically plaintiffs benefit, and
Speaker 5: I mean somebody who has the complaint, somebody who's been hurt,
Speaker 5: somebody who's suing somebody else. This is on the civil side,
Speaker 5: it could be on the criminal side too. Those that
Speaker 5: are more right leaning are more likely to say, yes,
Speaker 5: they're guilty. They're more likely to turn down somebody who's
Speaker 5: on a civil lawsuit, so they're gonna they're gonna lean
Speaker 5: in favor of the business, not the person who's hurt. God,
Speaker 5: So the plaintiffs are people who typically lean or benefit
Speaker 5: from somebody who's more let's say, liberal leaning. And then
Speaker 5: you have your blue counties, your red counties. I mean
Speaker 5: it's very much controlled and like the state of Texas
Speaker 5: very red now, and so that leans on what kind
Speaker 5: of jurors you're going to get. So most likely, let's say,
Speaker 5: if most hunters, let's just put a generalized statement, most
Speaker 5: hunters lean a certain way, then that's what he's hoping
Speaker 5: for of that kind of mindset. Now there's always exceptions,
Speaker 5: but that's that's kind of how they roll.
Speaker 1: What my guests wound up being I should have written
Speaker 1: them back. My guess was that it was a maybe
Speaker 1: a poaching case. Oh yeah, And if he wanted to
Speaker 1: trivialize the offense, like it's just an elk who cares?
Speaker 1: Yeah right, you'd want to get all the hunters out
Speaker 1: of there, oh for sure. You know. Then to then
Speaker 1: paint a picture like this, he shot a elk on
Speaker 1: his own place, who gives a shit?
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, or whatever. If it's a poaching case,
Speaker 5: did he say where he lived and we have to
Speaker 5: go find it? And that's fine?
Speaker 1: But yeah, I only remember as much as I'm telling you.
Speaker 5: Yeah, but I mean that's but that just goes to
Speaker 5: show you it's case by case. Like there's some people
Speaker 5: that I would, depending on the facts, I definitely wanted
Speaker 5: my jury. There's some that I would not want a
Speaker 5: million miles from the deliberation room. And so you have
Speaker 5: people that, yeah, if they're a hunter, they're going to
Speaker 5: take conservation a lot more seriously. And yeah, I.
Speaker 4: Had a bench warrant for my arrest.
Speaker 1: I'd like to say one time, his openings are the best.
Speaker 2: I love that.
Speaker 4: I've had a couple just added pure negligence, not out
Speaker 4: of you know, real solid criminal activity.
Speaker 1: Like from not checking your mail, from not checking my mail.
Speaker 4: Yeah yeah. And I was notified that I had a
Speaker 4: bench warrant. I was guiding at the time, so I
Speaker 4: spent a lot of time in the woods, not in
Speaker 4: cell reception and definitely not getting mail.
Speaker 5: Yeah yeah.
Speaker 4: And it was for not paying a parking ticket for
Speaker 4: like a very long time, I think, or a speeding
Speaker 4: ticket or something. And and uh so I go into
Speaker 4: the courtroom, submit my I have my letter, finally, very
Speaker 4: overdue letter, submit it like yeah, great, the you know,
Speaker 4: stand in line over here, the judge you'll see aloud
Speaker 4: in Missoula, and I really dressed basically like I am
Speaker 4: right now. I'm like, oh my god, this is all
Speaker 4: not gonna go well. And so they finally get through,
Speaker 4: get get up to me in my turn and and
Speaker 4: I'm like, yeah, you know, guilty for the ticket. You know,
Speaker 4: can I explain what happened? And just like sure, I said, yeah,
Speaker 4: you know, I spend a lot of time in the
Speaker 4: woods and I don't have access to mail or you know,
Speaker 4: and I'm but I'm in town now and yeah, and
Speaker 4: the judge just like basically said some version of yeah,
Speaker 4: I believe you yeah, but and it was purely based
Speaker 4: off of appearance, right right, right right?
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 4: And so now having this conversation, I am, I'm like,
Speaker 4: I'm wondering if I would have if anything would have changed,
Speaker 4: ad warn your Rolex. Yeah, if I would have gone
Speaker 4: and found a suit or you know, borrowed my buddy's
Speaker 4: ties and stuff like that.
Speaker 5: No, probably not. Like I find that most of your courthouses,
Speaker 5: especially the smaller ones, they're just good small town people,
Speaker 5: and they if you just treat them with kindness, like
Speaker 5: if you're just nice, you're not rude. You know, I
Speaker 5: can't believe I just got this. I mean, the person
Speaker 5: who has all the powers really your county clerk, those
Speaker 5: ladies behind the desk, who's same for like your court coordinator.
Speaker 5: Those are the people who have the real huh power
Speaker 5: in those courthouses. Oh yeah, those are the ones that
Speaker 5: sway the judges because when you're when you're in trial,
Speaker 5: the judge of courtport, the bailiff, they all go back
Speaker 5: to the chamber. You know what they do they talk
Speaker 5: trash on your entire trial. I mean they are they're
Speaker 5: they're kind of laying bets on who's gonna win, what
Speaker 5: evidence is Oh, yeah, they talk, they gossip about everything. Yeah,
Speaker 5: and so they already kind of know in their mind, no,
Speaker 5: that evidence is gonna work, or that's not gonna go well,
Speaker 5: or who's who's winning and who's not winning. So that
Speaker 5: I mean, it's like they're it's like they're they're junk
Speaker 5: TV man. Yeah, yeah, the whole thing. But no, I
Speaker 5: think how you you set it up. I wouldn't have
Speaker 5: changed that because if you're trying well, there is a
Speaker 5: difference between people who let's say, if you wore a
Speaker 5: real nice suit and you dressed all up and then
Speaker 5: you acted like a jerk, yeah, it's never gonna Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 5: they're not gonna go well. But I mean you definitely
Speaker 5: fit the look. So you know, I was at the
Speaker 5: fishing I was at the fishing game.
Speaker 4: There have no reason to believe this.
Speaker 1: Yeah, really, I went to the Fishing Game office with
Speaker 1: a co worker right down the road. Uh huh. Who
Speaker 1: gets arrested while we're in there because of a bench?
Speaker 4: Warn't amazing.
Speaker 7: I've heard.
Speaker 1: I was wondering this is gonna come up.
Speaker 8: Did you stick around to see how it turned out?
Speaker 4: Just so you started reading stuff on the wall.
Speaker 1: Coughton stuffed me.
Speaker 8: Well, you took care of what you had to take
Speaker 8: care of.
Speaker 5: That's awesome and hilarious.
Speaker 1: John, John, where'd you go? Yeah, because like you go
Speaker 1: down and you present your name and they whatever. Unreal
Speaker 1: Coughton stuffed.
Speaker 7: Have you worked any outdoor crimes before?
Speaker 5: No? No, no outdoor crime. So all of my stuff
Speaker 5: is civil. I have a lot of friends that, uh
Speaker 5: to criminal law, you're either on the state side prosecuting
Speaker 5: or you're defending them. I mean, we have our game.
Speaker 5: Ordens are pretty cool. Everybody's really chill down where I'm at.
Speaker 5: So I live in southeast Texas, a little bit north
Speaker 5: of a town called Beaumont. So it's called Silsby. Is
Speaker 5: the is the name of where I live, and just
Speaker 5: deep East Texas.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's like you guys have budhand down there.
Speaker 5: Oh yeah, we got boot yeah huh yeah, definitely definitely.
Speaker 5: So it's uh, it's what I love so much about
Speaker 5: the area is you have your lakes, you have your rivers,
Speaker 5: you you have the golf right there. I'm about forty
Speaker 5: five minutes from which which golf, which I call the
Speaker 5: Gulf of Mexico. That's what everybody wants to correct you nowadays,
Speaker 5: Like it's Gulf of Mexico for me.
Speaker 1: Man, dude, we were doing vo the other day. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we had like we're doing VO for a Mediator episode, Yeah,
Speaker 1: which occurred there. Uh you know, and it was so
Speaker 1: hard to like navigate it. I'm like, I don't know, man,
Speaker 1: Like what do you call it? Yeah? So I said, uh,
Speaker 1: I settled down the Gulf of uh you know.
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's why you can probably do it. This is
Speaker 5: probably the best way you could do it.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 5: So uh yeah, it is.
Speaker 1: So it's like so silly, it is. I think that
Speaker 1: like change names and things. But at the same time,
Speaker 1: it's like it's also it's so silly, but it's also
Speaker 1: like I don't want to get into it. It's like
Speaker 1: a little roar. It's a little language. It's like a
Speaker 1: little hey, I'll show you what it's like to have
Speaker 1: to choose your words real careful all the time. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that conflict. Yeah, yeah, we gotta get in. Okay, who's
Speaker 1: got this first one about? Uh, we're gonna put We're
Speaker 1: gonna put this to the test.
Speaker 5: Now, what do y'all have?
Speaker 1: Everybody's got we got It's just scenarios Okay that you
Speaker 1: can help us walk.
Speaker 8: Through first how to properly execute the insult compliment sandwich.
Speaker 1: But I want to get into this. I want to
Speaker 1: do that. I want to go to specifics first, just
Speaker 1: to get a flavor. Who's got this one? About this
Speaker 1: starts coworkers and girlfriends.
Speaker 4: I don't know who wrote that one, but it's sure good.
Speaker 1: Where to come from?
Speaker 3: Who wrote that one?
Speaker 1: Man?
Speaker 4: I wish we could find out.
Speaker 1: You're just gonna read it for us.
Speaker 4: Yeah, okay, wherever he's admitting of his hit, I don't know.
Speaker 4: It's an open document. Everybody's got access to it.
Speaker 1: Okay, So he's gonna hate you, he's gonna you know,
Speaker 1: I guess, and you're gonna help us think through you
Speaker 1: to help walk through how to handle difficult situations.
Speaker 4: I love it, and at the end of the day,
Speaker 4: whoever wrote it is not not really the point.
Speaker 7: I still love their girlfriends problem.
Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, people write in and message and stuff
Speaker 4: all the time, so we get a lot of you.
Speaker 7: They have a mustache.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 4: Co workers and girlfriends always casually ask about hunting spot locations. Unfortunately,
Speaker 4: they cannot be trusted, not because they are stealing spots,
Speaker 4: but because they don't understand that this information can never
Speaker 4: be brought up in a casual conversation. Ever, the reasoning
Speaker 4: behind my non answers to these questions have already been explained,
Speaker 4: but they continue to ask anyway, So now I just lie,
Speaker 4: which I hate. How do you navigate that scenario?
Speaker 5: So for whoever wrote this in, I would ask them
Speaker 5: this kind of clarifying question and maybe have an idea
Speaker 5: of what they might say. Is is this a conversation
Speaker 5: that's happening in front of other people or is this
Speaker 5: just one on one with whoever this girlfriend or spouse.
Speaker 4: Might be and co workers. Let's not forget the co
Speaker 4: workers part. It can be both, it can be both.
Speaker 5: So you have something. Okay, this is super specific. So
Speaker 5: let's say let's say there's a piece of information that
Speaker 5: you're telling someone I can't tell you that and they're
Speaker 5: having to continually repeat that kind of thing. Do you
Speaker 5: feel that they're just breaking that trust? Are they Is
Speaker 5: it intentional from this other person or is it just
Speaker 5: they're just not thinking about it.
Speaker 4: They're just not thinking about it. It's not internalized on
Speaker 4: the same level as as it's typically like a younger
Speaker 4: hunter versus a more seasoned hunter. Because right, the value
Speaker 4: of that information only increases over time.
Speaker 5: Okay, so give me a little insight here when you
Speaker 5: where are certain spots are? Yeah? Certain spots are they
Speaker 5: this is news to me, Like you just don't if
Speaker 5: you're like, hey, this is a great area, we're not
Speaker 5: going to go. We're not going to tell people that
Speaker 5: we're hunting.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Like yeah, like, uh, this is a this is
Speaker 1: a public land problem, ah okay, or fish or a
Speaker 1: fishing problem.
Speaker 8: You got a circle of trust who you might share
Speaker 8: it with. But then like there's people that you're not
Speaker 8: gonna Yeah.
Speaker 1: So a guy like Cal, Let's say a guy like Cal.
Speaker 5: Yeah, just as an example, a guy like.
Speaker 1: Cal has a girlfriend says where are you?
Speaker 5: Oh? Okay?
Speaker 1: Then he goes, I'm up on none of your business creek, right, okay?
Speaker 1: Uh what his problem now is someone's gonna go like, hey,
Speaker 1: what's Cal doing? I don't know. He called he sent
Speaker 1: me a picture, you called all these fish?
Speaker 5: Where is he?
Speaker 1: Where is he? Like? He said, he's on none of
Speaker 1: your business creek there? Okay, No, she didn't know that.
Speaker 1: She just was blowing it up.
Speaker 5: There we go.
Speaker 1: But he just knows it's gonna slip and so if
Speaker 1: he goes, I can't tell you.
Speaker 5: I say, I guess what's the problem with that? So
Speaker 5: this would be my thought, This would be my thought
Speaker 5: on that is one. Of course, it's good to know
Speaker 5: that it's not potential from this other person too. They're
Speaker 5: they're only calling because they care. They're probably calling to
Speaker 5: create conversation. It's my guess that they're just generally wanting
Speaker 5: to know where you are. I think if you come
Speaker 5: at it from I'm safe over in the most general
Speaker 5: area that you can be without telling them where exactly
Speaker 5: you are, is probably your best bet, because that sounds
Speaker 5: like the reason they're asking is not really to know
Speaker 5: the information that could slip of getting out. This is
Speaker 5: where we're have this wonderful honey hole. It's that she's
Speaker 5: just asking because she probably just is making conversation, wants
Speaker 5: to know you're safe.
Speaker 1: But problem but the co workers, the coworkers are not
Speaker 1: the co workers of okay, are my coworkers here?
Speaker 5: They're mining for information? Yeah, who are coworkers here in
Speaker 5: this scenario? Are these people you're working with? Or it
Speaker 5: is the people she's working with.
Speaker 1: It's me. I'm like, hey, what'd you get that big
Speaker 1: old buck, You couldn't.
Speaker 4: He can't tell you, right, Steve would be like, boy,
Speaker 4: it looks like cal had a pretty good weekend.
Speaker 1: Where was that? Where where was he?
Speaker 3: Right?
Speaker 4: Okay, So then because there's this totally other scenarios, like
Speaker 4: fishing scenario that we have in common, Steve is gracious
Speaker 4: enough to lend out his boat from time to time.
Speaker 4: We're fishing a lot of the same spots, and in
Speaker 4: that scenario, I'm like, hey, this is what happened, this
Speaker 4: is where I was, and this is what I was
Speaker 4: using because.
Speaker 1: It was my damn boat. Yeah, I said, if I said,
Speaker 1: where did you take my boat? Yeah, that'd be weird.
Speaker 3: Said, he's gonna throw like a tracker in it, you know.
Speaker 1: And let's let's set you a different one. No.
Speaker 5: No, But what I would end it with is one
Speaker 5: it's it's lighthearted, right, So I would come up with
Speaker 5: some kind of phrase that it's really more of a
Speaker 5: humorous joke for you, whether it's like, oh I just
Speaker 5: went down to Mystery City or whatever it was. If
Speaker 5: you're making it a joke that way, it's not her
Speaker 5: taking it like it's serious. So that's kind of like
Speaker 5: a code when I tell you it's here. It's because
Speaker 5: I'm telling you because I can't let anybody know. It's
Speaker 5: not that I don't want you to know. I just can't.
Speaker 5: I can't.
Speaker 1: Yeah, We've built that joke with our kids where I'll
Speaker 1: joke with my kids like tell them it's where none
Speaker 1: your creek flows into business.
Speaker 5: There we are exactly.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 5: Yeah, So a lot of the times humor just adding
Speaker 5: in a little bit of a joke, like if I
Speaker 5: need to, you know, like a grandparent. So this is
Speaker 5: the first time I go into my grandparents' house and
Speaker 5: I remember asking my grandmother. You know, my mama said,
Speaker 5: where's Papov? And she said, ah, he's in his office.
Speaker 5: That meant he was in the bathroom. And so it
Speaker 5: was just a way of like when company was around,
Speaker 5: not letting them know where he was. And so or
Speaker 5: somebody says, where'd you get that? You go out? It
Speaker 5: just fell off the back of a truck, is what
Speaker 5: we would typically say. If I don't want to express
Speaker 5: in somebody, so find some on a metaphor that is
Speaker 5: also cod it.
Speaker 4: Also implies that you, I see you have a wedding ring, right,
Speaker 4: that your brand of humor must not wear off over
Speaker 4: the time it doesn't.
Speaker 5: That's funny, that's funny.
Speaker 1: Okay, here's one. All right, you have a buddy, Okay,
Speaker 1: you're a duck hunter. I'll putting soul. Yeah, you have
Speaker 1: a buddy who is learning to call, learning the duck call.
Speaker 1: They're terrible. You feel that this calling they're doing and
Speaker 1: they insist on calling a lot. Yeah, and it's just
Speaker 1: it's like fingernails on a chalkboard to you. They're trying
Speaker 1: to learn, Yeah, but it's not working right now?
Speaker 5: Right?
Speaker 1: How do you? How do you? How do you?
Speaker 5: How do you approach that? Yeah? So I would I would, Uh,
Speaker 5: it's funny because I've probably been that other kid learned
Speaker 5: how to start doing duck calls. I would begin with
Speaker 5: this phrase. I'm telling you this because like a lot
Speaker 5: of time we're not sure does he use that?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 5: Oh yeah, definitely, Yeah, because a lot of times.
Speaker 1: You don't know. My hackles are up already.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 5: I'm telling you because I'm telling you. It's because I
Speaker 5: love you. I'm telling you it's because you're my best friend.
Speaker 5: I'm telling you because I know you're really excited about
Speaker 5: this game call like whatever it is, whatever it is,
Speaker 5: a lot of times people just don't know why you're
Speaker 5: telling them things.
Speaker 1: You start talking and then.
Speaker 8: You say, like, I'm telling you this because we're here
Speaker 8: to kill ducks. And if you keep calling we're not
Speaker 8: gonna kill that's a you know what.
Speaker 5: I yeah, even if it's a wee thing, I'm telling
Speaker 5: you this because we're here to kill the most amount
Speaker 5: of ducks we can. What you're doing, it's probably not
Speaker 5: the best strategy right now, like just.
Speaker 1: Come flat out yeah.
Speaker 5: Yeah. When you're when you're super indirect, I feel it's
Speaker 5: also like, if it's a hunting buddy, this is the
Speaker 5: person who we speak very direct. I mean, if it's
Speaker 5: me and another guy, it's direct. Conversation is usually not
Speaker 5: that much of a struggle for two dudes who I've
Speaker 5: just become really close. Because when you have a hunting buddy,
Speaker 5: I mean, you can do just about You talk about
Speaker 5: everything when you're in the blind or in the stand,
Speaker 5: and so conversation happens. So it's I wouldn't skirt around
Speaker 5: it at all. But when you say I'm telling you this,
Speaker 5: because a lot of times it's it's the work is
Speaker 5: for you. I guess it works both ways. It's I'm
Speaker 5: one I'm talking about the goal of what I'm wanting
Speaker 5: to say, because most people wait until they're talking to
Speaker 5: figure out what they actually want to say. And then
Speaker 5: at the other side, I'm telling the person why I'm
Speaker 5: telling them that. I mean, you can say X, Y
Speaker 5: and Z, but they're not sure what the point is
Speaker 5: behind it. Yeah, I'd put it out as flat as
Speaker 5: you can.
Speaker 1: Let me complexify it.
Speaker 5: Wonderful.
Speaker 1: There's other individuals present, Yeah, it's everybody doesn't really know
Speaker 1: each other that well. Okay, So here you are in
Speaker 1: a situation like I want to show everybody a good time,
Speaker 1: which means having some success because they're going to enjoy
Speaker 1: that at the same time I do I Am I
Speaker 1: going to humiliate this guy in front of all these
Speaker 1: other people?
Speaker 5: Mm hmm. So yeah, I would. I definitely wouldn't. That
Speaker 5: wouldn't be your default there. I would pass it a
Speaker 5: toss up, toss it up as a question to them,
Speaker 5: or even saying maybe, like give them them a choice.
Speaker 5: So even if you say something like, hey, so maybe
Speaker 5: we I want to I like how you're calling them.
Speaker 5: Let's maybe wait until we're doing X, Y and Z.
Speaker 5: Or let's say you wanted to stop altogether and just say, hey,
Speaker 5: I have some ideas for you on the game call.
Speaker 5: Can you I need you to hold off for a
Speaker 5: few X, Y and Z a few passes and we'll
Speaker 5: try later on the afternoon, maybe when they're not coming
Speaker 5: in as hard.
Speaker 8: So I mean, like, could you be could you be
Speaker 8: like sneaky about it and be like, listen, you need
Speaker 8: to listen to this guy.
Speaker 4: Call for a while?
Speaker 5: Yeah for sure. Yeah, absolutely, ain't nothing wrong with that.
Speaker 5: I mean I think anytime you're also using that as
Speaker 5: like a teaching opportunity because they're trying to get better
Speaker 5: at it. Yeah, I mean, because I know I have
Speaker 5: two cousins of mine that they will they guide over
Speaker 5: in Lake Caddo, which is North Texas, and yeah, they'll
Speaker 5: go and sometimes while they were learning, we'd be with
Speaker 5: a real guide out and duck hunting or something. And
Speaker 5: because they think that they've done a few guides, they're
Speaker 5: just as good as they are. And the real guide
Speaker 5: that who were paying is God. Can y'all we need
Speaker 5: y'all knock it off? And so you know what I've
Speaker 5: heard them go, just go, hey, guys, I need you
Speaker 5: to hold off for a little bit. And then he
Speaker 5: just never tells them when to come back on, you know,
Speaker 5: but that's how they That's also how they learned. So
Speaker 5: everybody's been around that. So it's I do like it.
Speaker 5: It can be really forgiving it, just you can't do
Speaker 5: it at a time where let's say everybody's got their
Speaker 5: schedule together. You spent money on all of this stuff.
Speaker 5: You're here to achieve a goal, and uh so if
Speaker 5: they're hurting that goal, you need to tell them.
Speaker 1: So you you never you wouldn't recommend just letting it be.
Speaker 1: You got to you you recognize the need to address it.
Speaker 5: Definitely. Yeah, well there's some things I would let be.
Speaker 5: But if it's just they're blowing the call and they're
Speaker 5: if they're if they're blowing the ducks, I mean, then yeah,
Speaker 5: I would definitely be saying something, who's got this one?
Speaker 8: This one's mine. This has happened to me at more
Speaker 8: than once, and it'll often come down to who can
Speaker 8: get their stuff together fastest and start running up the trail.
Speaker 8: But you arrive at the trailhead a parking spot at
Speaker 8: the same time as a complete stranger, and there's already
Speaker 8: tension in the air. How to address who's gonna hunt where,
Speaker 8: especially when you've got like a specific spot already in
Speaker 8: mind that you're going to.
Speaker 5: Mm hm and they and they're going to the same sort.
Speaker 8: Well, well it's either you raise them, get ahead of
Speaker 8: them without saying a word to get to your spot,
Speaker 8: or you decide to have a conversation with them and say,
Speaker 8: who's going where I've got? Like how do you? How
Speaker 8: do you get to where? You're like, I'm going to
Speaker 8: this spot?
Speaker 5: You shouldn't you shouldn't.
Speaker 1: Well, no, no, you tell the other guy they shouldn't
Speaker 1: go to.
Speaker 2: Picture.
Speaker 1: You had a boat launch, Okay, okay, okay, it's like
Speaker 1: pre it's like duck season. We had a boat launch.
Speaker 1: Most people that launch boats in this place are going
Speaker 1: to X place. Correct, there's another guy launching right next
Speaker 1: to you.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 1: You could either be like, well not, I'm just gonna
Speaker 1: act like he's not.
Speaker 8: Here and just tear ass out of there.
Speaker 1: Yeah, or you'd be like, let's go. Yeah, so like, hey,
Speaker 1: you know, where are you headed? Because I'm thinking about.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I've I've seen it. Best work where you approach
Speaker 5: that person say hey, hey, you're heading out, heading out? Yeah,
Speaker 5: getting ready? We'll just have you know, a little bit
Speaker 5: of BS and then well you want to I think
Speaker 5: we should make a plan on, you know, where each
Speaker 5: other are going. So another It's one of these things
Speaker 5: where it's always good to just say we instead of hey,
Speaker 5: where you going and they're gonna go. I don't know
Speaker 5: if I should tell you.
Speaker 8: Yeah, because I've I've done it where I've you know,
Speaker 8: approached a person and I've said where are you thinking
Speaker 8: about going? Right, and then they'll say the spot where
Speaker 8: I was, And then I'm in a pickle. Right if
Speaker 8: they were planning on going where I was, then I'm
Speaker 8: like then I got to be like, okay, go ahead.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I like that, like, hey, what should we do here?
Speaker 5: Yeah, whenever you can say kind of you're acknowledging that
Speaker 5: they're they're there, I wouldn't just ignore them. But I
Speaker 5: think it shows a lot of maturity too, just as
Speaker 5: a mature hunter to go up to the person introduce yourself,
Speaker 5: because you're getting to meet another person and be another hunter. Great,
Speaker 5: that's another good contact for you because there are always
Speaker 5: another set of eyes and ears on what's happening. And
Speaker 5: if you could say, hey, I think we should I
Speaker 5: think you okay with us making a plan and where
Speaker 5: each other are going. They're most likely going to say yeah,
Speaker 5: or even if you recommend it, I think we should
Speaker 5: have a plan on. Let's make a game plan if
Speaker 5: that's all right with you, and where we're going, and
Speaker 5: then they'll typically well, I think about going X, Y,
Speaker 5: and Z, or they might just say yeah, that sounds good,
Speaker 5: and that gives you the chance to say, I think
Speaker 5: I'm going to head off, you know, disurrection going to
Speaker 5: cut east around the bind there and then just land
Speaker 5: somewhere around there. If they're going the same place, then
Speaker 5: that's a different that's a different scenario, depends if you're
Speaker 5: really wanting to It's kind of like whoever says it first, yeah,
Speaker 5: you know, whoever kind of claims it.
Speaker 8: I never want I've always been like, where are you going,
Speaker 8: rather than I'm going here.
Speaker 5: Exactly, you know what I mean. Yeah, I've definitely heard
Speaker 5: those kind of people say, well, I'm going this way,
Speaker 5: I don't know where you're going this where I'm going,
Speaker 5: meaning don't even don't even think about going that direction.
Speaker 5: Because I think hunters in particular, as part of the
Speaker 5: the nature of it all, were very territorial, sure, very dominant.
Speaker 5: It's whatever we can to mark our territory, our fishing
Speaker 5: spot or whatever it is.
Speaker 1: So you know, how I got out of this most
Speaker 1: recently was that me and my kid were el Cointon.
Speaker 1: We had this whole plan put together and then we
Speaker 1: get there and there's a truck park there, the trucks
Speaker 1: still running, there's guys in it. So I said to
Speaker 1: my kid, I say, hey, go ask those guys what
Speaker 1: they're doing, because I hate those conversations. Yeah, he came
Speaker 1: back with the report.
Speaker 5: Yeah, it was. It helped.
Speaker 1: Well, they were doing exactly they had exactly, They saw
Speaker 1: exactly what we had.
Speaker 5: Seen, and they were doing the same thing. Well, not
Speaker 5: everybody can have their own scout, you know, but.
Speaker 1: Had, So here's the deal with that approach. Where are
Speaker 1: you going? They said where they're going? And he comes
Speaker 1: back and tells where they're going, and we just went
Speaker 1: to plan B. Had I gone up and said, hey,
Speaker 1: we should since we're both here at the same time,
Speaker 1: we should make a little plan.
Speaker 5: Yeah. I don't think there's anything wrong with that.
Speaker 1: It's because I with the way I approached it. It
Speaker 1: was like I made it. I made it sort of
Speaker 1: binary and lost out right.
Speaker 8: But there's also like this like unwritten rule kind of
Speaker 8: sort of where like if you get to a trailhead
Speaker 8: and there's someone even if they got their thirty seconds
Speaker 8: before you, it's like, well they were here first, right,
Speaker 8: I mean.
Speaker 1: Yeah, But that depends a lot on like what kind
Speaker 1: of sit like, yeah, trailhead, what kind of boat launch,
Speaker 1: But it's there, it can be there. But if it's
Speaker 1: like a boat launch and there's like tons of people, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's just different rules than if it's like some weird bridge.
Speaker 8: Morning and the guy like you know where the gobblers are?
Speaker 5: Yeah. I just think if you if you approach the conversation,
Speaker 5: you can put however terms you want. But if you say,
Speaker 5: you know, hey, we're both here for a good hunt
Speaker 5: this morning, let's let's make a plan out where we're going,
Speaker 5: and and it just opens you up for really the
Speaker 5: whole goal. That's it's another relationship that you could have
Speaker 5: with this person because you're gonna know them, and next
Speaker 5: time you see them again, you're gonna know who they are,
Speaker 5: and it's you're meeting them really for the next time. Yeah,
Speaker 5: that's that's why you're meeting them.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I've got I've got a guy that I've run
Speaker 6: into bear hunting and we ran into each other like
Speaker 6: two springs in a row, and then just over time.
Speaker 5: Where I see him and I'm like.
Speaker 1: Hey, howre's it going. And then one time we ended up.
Speaker 6: Shooting an elk out there and uh, we didn't have
Speaker 6: enough game bags with us, and I texted the guy
Speaker 6: and he's like, oh, they got him in the basement
Speaker 6: of the hardware store. Just go down to the basement
Speaker 6: and they've got bags.
Speaker 1: Really.
Speaker 5: Uh, yeah, it's funny.
Speaker 6: It's like I've never met him outside of the context
Speaker 6: of two trucks on a forest service road, and most
Speaker 6: people that I encounter in that way, I think that
Speaker 6: they're an asshole.
Speaker 5: That funny.
Speaker 1: John John Garros, the late John Garrox line was similar.
Speaker 1: He said, there's two kinds of fishermen. Yeah, there's the
Speaker 1: guys you're with in the assholes.
Speaker 5: That's very true. Yeah, it's it's very easy to us
Speaker 5: us versus them, And you just apply that to you
Speaker 5: can apply to the business context. You think of that
Speaker 5: as anything else that's the same way. And I think
Speaker 5: there's also the kind of natural element of we're competing
Speaker 5: for the same animal. Yeah, you know, the sense of
Speaker 5: who's going to be the best warrior out there. Yeah,
Speaker 5: and so it's very easy to get confrontational with people.
Speaker 4: Steve brings up a good scenario. I've told you guys
Speaker 4: this one before, but it's just like an afterwork, right,
Speaker 4: And I was always like very prepared, so because I
Speaker 4: did not want to have any any sort of human
Speaker 4: interaction when I got to my spot, so I'd have
Speaker 4: like my backpack fully rigged up and all I had
Speaker 4: to do is just throw on my back and go right.
Speaker 4: It was just to minimize these scenarios. And this is
Speaker 4: really really steep country. And this car pulls up, guy
Speaker 4: and a kid and guys, hey, where are you going?
Speaker 4: I said, oh, I'm going up on this ridge and
Speaker 4: you go, oh, well, I'm that's where I'm where my
Speaker 4: kid's going, just dropping them off. And it was just
Speaker 4: one of those things where I was like, well, if
Speaker 4: you had a plan, you probably should have said that
Speaker 4: instead of asking and be that kid might get part
Speaker 4: of the way up that thing. There's no no, like,
Speaker 4: there's just not. It wasn't in the realm of a
Speaker 4: realistic possibility that.
Speaker 1: Let me see the kid, yeah where Yeah.
Speaker 4: And so I just left it. I said, okay, Well,
Speaker 4: I'll see him up there and if you get something,
Speaker 4: I'll help him out.
Speaker 5: Yeah, and that's a perfect response. That was kind of yeah, Well,
Speaker 5: it's so funny because like where I'm at, we don't
Speaker 5: there's no public plan. I mean, just don't. You just
Speaker 5: don't have that available.
Speaker 1: So it's a whole other conversation.
Speaker 4: Dad in this scenario did not find that to be
Speaker 4: the perfect response.
Speaker 5: Yeah, well I can't imagine. Yeah, I can imagine. But
Speaker 5: that's one of the reason why I love listening to
Speaker 5: this podcast is because you talk about the public land stuff.
Speaker 1: Were power, there are powers that be Yeah, they would
Speaker 1: prefer that no one had a public plan.
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's unreal. It's unreal to me.
Speaker 1: Spencer hit him with the mushroom question.
Speaker 7: This is like a legal one. What if I serve
Speaker 7: someone mushrooms that get them really sick? Can they sue me?
Speaker 3: Like?
Speaker 5: Am I?
Speaker 7: Can I get in trouble? Phil comes over for a
Speaker 7: dinner party. I serve him a delicious meal of mushrooms.
Speaker 7: But they weren't the mushroom I thought they were.
Speaker 3: Oh, so you don't own a restaurant.
Speaker 4: And Spencer used his words proactively to avoid.
Speaker 7: I think they're chantrell. But it turns out they're a
Speaker 7: jackal lantern and then of those types of ushroomsyeah gets
Speaker 7: you real poison, this gets you real sick. Could I
Speaker 7: get in trouble for that?
Speaker 5: Yeah, you could if they wanted to see Yeah, I
Speaker 5: mean if a private home. Yeah, even if like let's
Speaker 5: say you somehow they were on your back porch balcony,
Speaker 5: uh huh, and they were leaning against a rail and
Speaker 5: that was a rail that you knew you needed to fix,
Speaker 5: but you didn't tell them and they leaned on it
Speaker 5: and just fell off and broke their neck. Oh yeah,
Speaker 5: they can see you. That's why you have homeowners insurance
Speaker 5: hopefully so, because it's even though you're technically they have
Speaker 5: different types of people who come on to a premise,
Speaker 5: and you have licensees, you have guests and invitees, and
Speaker 5: it all depends on the purpose of why you're there.
Speaker 5: So like as a here, like I come here, if
Speaker 5: I I trip on something, I'm not coming up with
Speaker 5: any ideas, you know, Yeah, yeahs Phil, are these wires? Okay? Yeah,
Speaker 5: it's if you came there for the purpose of somebody else. Yeah,
Speaker 5: you can't. You can't be ill liable now there's going
Speaker 5: to be a big difference for you. Well, let's say
Speaker 5: you can sue them, yes, would you probably have likelihood
Speaker 5: of recovery? Probably not. Also, would you ever have a
Speaker 5: friend again with this person?
Speaker 3: Though?
Speaker 7: What what if I, like gave fill the mushrooms and
Speaker 7: he took them home and cooked them. Like I think
Speaker 7: phil that these are shantrails, but they were jackal lanterns.
Speaker 5: It depends on your knowledge. So it goes to an
Speaker 5: element of knowledge. Did you have actual notice? Did you?
Speaker 5: What they would say is what they would call sufficient notice,
Speaker 5: like you knew or should have known, so that that
Speaker 5: should have known will get you. So if you knew
Speaker 5: they caused problems, then then yeah, that could definitely get
Speaker 5: you in trouble if you had no idea whatsoever. Or
Speaker 5: let's say they were illegal to have for whatever reason,
Speaker 5: so it doesn't matter if you had notice of whether
Speaker 5: they were good or bad for you. It's kind of
Speaker 5: like giving contraband for the notice of that's that's it's
Speaker 5: only intended purpose. So one of my favorite uh, just
Speaker 5: because this I know there's a little loft, but one
Speaker 5: of my favorite topics to talk about. So I wrote
Speaker 5: my in law school, you have different journals you can
Speaker 5: be on, and everybody wants to be on the law journal,
Speaker 5: which is the most the top of the writing where
Speaker 5: you write articles that get put into books. And I
Speaker 5: wrote mine on negligent and trustment of a handgun. I
Speaker 5: have a firearm. That was my that was my negligent trustment. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 5: negligent and trustment of a firearm because you have there's
Speaker 5: just different states. It was really to talk about just
Speaker 5: the status of the law.
Speaker 1: Tell people like translate that for people. Yeah, yeah, so
Speaker 1: like entrustment of a firearm, but yeah, yeah, you're talking.
Speaker 5: About cool so meaning that you entrusted a firearm to
Speaker 5: let's say a sixteen year old son who you knew
Speaker 5: had proclivities for violence, who had had brought into the law,
Speaker 5: who played wore video games all the time, and they
Speaker 5: entrusted the gun to the sixteen year old, and the
Speaker 5: six year old committed a shot somebody. But that happens
Speaker 5: too of cases where there was one where a guy
Speaker 5: would have a had a firearm he kept in the office,
Speaker 5: and all the women in the office knew if they
Speaker 5: worked late at night, he had a gun in his desk.
Speaker 5: Should they need it for self defense. Well, one of
Speaker 5: the women was actually having an affair with that guy,
Speaker 5: and when she had an argument with her husband.
Speaker 1: To get your book, she exactly when.
Speaker 5: She had an argument with her husband, she went back
Speaker 5: to the office, grabbed that gun, went to her husband
Speaker 5: and shot him. And so it was a big legal question.
Speaker 5: So she didn't own the gun. He did. He left
Speaker 5: it accessible for her should he need it. But did
Speaker 5: he have the requisite knowledge give than that he knew
Speaker 5: that they were having marital problems. He knew that she
Speaker 5: had talked about shooting her husband. So like all this stuff,
Speaker 5: how it's not his fault.
Speaker 1: So that's the whole thing. That's that's the whole thing.
Speaker 5: So whether I'm say, you know, I know more facts
Speaker 5: on the case that he was very much involved with, Hey,
Speaker 5: you can have this coffee if you want, and I
Speaker 5: mean you can pour this coffee on him. That's fine. No,
Speaker 5: it's fine. You don't have to like continually pushing the
Speaker 5: gun and using the gotta Well, it actually went to
Speaker 5: the appellate court. The jury said yes, that he should.
Speaker 5: He was found liable for negligce and trust of a firearm.
Speaker 5: But the Pellet court in Texas said, no, there's No,
Speaker 5: it did not even recognize the cause of action. So
Speaker 5: my whole article was whether or not to recognize the
Speaker 5: cause of action. Now we recognize in Texas the cause
Speaker 5: of action for a car. Right, so if you if
Speaker 5: you allow your fourteen year old, I give my keys
Speaker 5: or I make my keys access for my fourteen year old,
Speaker 5: and so you can use the truck if you need it.
Speaker 5: And he goes and drives. Now he's not a competent driver,
Speaker 5: he does not have a license for it. He goes
Speaker 5: out and causes an accident, I, as the parent, as
Speaker 5: the owner of that vehicle, I can be held negligent.
Speaker 5: Same thing for companies. They have an employee who they
Speaker 5: know who's caused tons of accidents, and they're going to
Speaker 5: let him drive, knowing that he's calls all kinds of problems.
Speaker 5: You can. It's just a theory of liability, that's all
Speaker 5: it is. But here I was making the legal comparison
Speaker 5: because I just found it so intriguing. Of with a firearm,
Speaker 5: you have a license, you need to show competency to
Speaker 5: use it. Relatively, what's the utility of a card to drive?
Speaker 5: Utility of a weapon is to shoot, so like it
Speaker 5: should should be a higher threshold. So anyway, that was
Speaker 5: that came to mind of like, what's the theory of
Speaker 5: liability there? Several states recognize negligent and trust of a firearm,
Speaker 5: but Texas does not.
Speaker 4: Can I ask one question on this line of thinking?
Speaker 4: So I was given a shotgun and the person who
Speaker 4: gave me the shotgun had the barrels checked to just
Speaker 4: make sure it was still a good shot, old, old,
Speaker 4: side by side, and the probably the second day that
Speaker 4: I used it, it was hunting with with a a
Speaker 4: friend of mine and we finally got into some birds.
Speaker 4: Shot the gun gun shot great, And I went to
Speaker 4: reload the shotgun I had. You know, you always maintained
Speaker 4: good control of your barrels. And I I'm looking at
Speaker 4: I mean, I just remember this so clearly because every
Speaker 4: time crazy stuff happens, it's scary, right. So I'm looking
Speaker 4: at him and I closed the gun and buy am.
Speaker 1: Right, And so I'm like, okay, I must have.
Speaker 4: Had my finger on the trigger. And my friend's like, Jesus,
Speaker 4: that was it? Stupid?
Speaker 1: What are you doing?
Speaker 4: I'm like, well, wait a minute, am I stupid? Right?
Speaker 1: Right?
Speaker 4: Well, I pulled the shells out, put new shells in.
Speaker 4: I'm my fingers clear, the trigger.
Speaker 1: Close, right, I guess they hurting your knuckles, shoulder.
Speaker 4: Yeah, so yeah, took took the gun into a gun
Speaker 4: smith and yeah, there you go inside the action. You know,
Speaker 4: it was just an old gun that had been sitting
Speaker 4: in a Massachusetts basement for a long time and then
Speaker 4: it did that.
Speaker 1: Dude have reason to believe.
Speaker 5: Right, No, No, that wouldn't have passed that.
Speaker 4: That's not negligent entrustment of a firearm.
Speaker 5: No, No, I mean that's not at all. Like I
Speaker 5: am very much a proponent of just because you hand
Speaker 5: the child a BB gun, a pelagon, whatever it is,
Speaker 5: and all of a sudden you should be liable for
Speaker 5: everything they do with Absolutely not. I'm saying it's it's
Speaker 5: there's a level of knowledge. It's really just more for
Speaker 5: the legal like theory discus of it. How much sufficient
Speaker 5: knowledge do you have to have? So you see this
Speaker 5: come into play with of course, with mass shootings, there's
Speaker 5: a student who came to school with something and so
Speaker 5: the parents just had a AK forty seven of the
Speaker 5: you know, at the in the bedroom right there or
Speaker 5: whatever it is.
Speaker 1: And so that's the thing you're seeing lately, those prosecuting parents.
Speaker 5: Correct. Yeah, it's saying you should know better to properly
Speaker 5: store your gun or keep it away from people who
Speaker 5: cannot who should not be allowed to use it. And
Speaker 5: you see this a lot with the children that truly
Speaker 5: have have problems. But you know, in the case I
Speaker 5: was talking about, the guy who owned the gun was
Speaker 5: much more pushing it on to her than what evidence
Speaker 5: could come out for that appellate corps. But anyway, Yeah,
Speaker 5: I just find it so intriguing that if you knew
Speaker 5: giving a gun to somebody that they're likely to cause
Speaker 5: harmed a person, not just because they're they're new their
Speaker 5: kid like competency is just one element. It's also the knowledge.
Speaker 5: So the State of Texas in well the Pella Court said, no,
Speaker 5: you have to have knowledge that they will use the
Speaker 5: gun to harm somebody. So in the case of the
Speaker 5: husband and wife, then the husband should have had the
Speaker 5: knowledge that she would use the gun to kill her husband.
Speaker 5: And that was the that was the great area. But
Speaker 5: that just goes to she.
Speaker 1: Said, do you happen to have anything I can use
Speaker 1: to kill my husband?
Speaker 5: Exactly?
Speaker 1: He said, yeah, this pistol, right, trouble for that.
Speaker 5: Yeah, So then it just goes to a level of
Speaker 5: knowledge that Pello Court said, no, he didn't have sufficient knowledge.
Speaker 5: The fact showed he probably knew that. It's something I
Speaker 5: knew she didn't. I knew they had marital problems, but
Speaker 5: I didn't know she's going to actually kill the guy.
Speaker 5: That was kind of how that works. But that's what
Speaker 5: made when you're talking about the mushrooms of you know
Speaker 5: what if you give it to somebody else, does that
Speaker 5: create a chain of liability? And there's sometimes that. Yeah,
Speaker 5: when you entrust something, but that's what they call it,
Speaker 5: entrusting a chattel is the legal term for it, then
Speaker 5: you can you can in certain situations be liable for
Speaker 5: it pretty well.
Speaker 1: Specially put another one down that I want him to
Speaker 1: jump to, which is asking the permission permissions. Remember that as.
Speaker 7: Yeah, I have a question specifically about like preparing for
Speaker 7: a hard conversation. I ask a lot of folks for
Speaker 7: hunting permission.
Speaker 1: This year.
Speaker 7: I'm trying to hunt a new state, and so I
Speaker 7: identified six landowners, sixteen landowners I wanted to ask permission for,
Speaker 7: and I called sixteen of them a couple saturdays ago
Speaker 7: and asked for permission. The current way I treat that, uh,
Speaker 7: because I like sort of dread it. It's a hard
Speaker 7: conversation and I'm a stranger. I'm asking them for like
Speaker 7: one of the greatest favors they could possibly do for me. Yeah,
Speaker 7: that's how it goes. How how could.
Speaker 1: You send your kids up?
Speaker 4: Question?
Speaker 3: What?
Speaker 7: How can you best prepare for a conversation like that?
Speaker 7: Because the way I currently treat it is I sort
Speaker 7: of spring it on myself. I like prize myself almost.
Speaker 7: I'm like, I can't think about this too much, Like, Okay,
Speaker 7: I'm gonna do this. It's eleven a m. Saturday morning.
Speaker 7: This is just what I'm gonna do it now. And
Speaker 7: so I call all sixteen of these landowners hate it,
Speaker 7: and I rip off.
Speaker 5: The band aid.
Speaker 7: Usually I get like part way into it, it's not
Speaker 7: so bad then, and I'd like, one thing I've done
Speaker 7: is I tell myself the worst thing they can do
Speaker 7: is they say no.
Speaker 5: Sure.
Speaker 7: And then one time I went up to a rancher's
Speaker 7: door and I knocked on his door to ask for
Speaker 7: shed hunting permission. Is dog bit me and I had
Speaker 7: to go. It was way out of day on my
Speaker 7: rabies shot, So I did I go get it rid.
Speaker 7: So actually, the worst thing that could happen to me
Speaker 7: is I get bit by a.
Speaker 1: Dog, but you suit them and got the whole ranch.
Speaker 1: Yeah that's true.
Speaker 7: You're right, maybe, so talk about preparing for a hard
Speaker 7: conversation like asking for haunting permission.
Speaker 5: Yeah, So what I teach for the more difficult conversations
Speaker 5: is using what I call frame for them. And so
Speaker 5: there's a three parts to it. One is you tell
Speaker 5: someone what you want to talk about till you tell
Speaker 5: them how you want to walk away from in the conversation.
Speaker 5: And three, you get their buy in into that frame.
Speaker 5: I see this a lot in the business context, of course,
Speaker 5: where somebody needs to correct a decision. So let's put
Speaker 5: it in context of maybe y'all had a business meeting
Speaker 5: here and you need to correct something that somebody's done.
Speaker 5: So let's say you're gonna have a difficult conversation with Krin.
Speaker 5: It could be as simple as you know, hey, hey Krinn,
Speaker 5: I need to talk to you about some comments you
Speaker 5: made at last Thursday's meeting, and I want to walk
Speaker 5: away with it with the understanding that we can't talk
Speaker 5: about that again. Sound good? And then right there, you
Speaker 5: know exactly what we're talking about exactly what the walk
Speaker 5: away is, and then you're getting to their buy and
Speaker 5: now you don't have to worry about Hey, you remember
Speaker 5: that meeting that we had.
Speaker 1: You've had the whole conversation already.
Speaker 5: Yeah, exactly. So now there's not the anxiety because you're
Speaker 5: only thinking of what. When you're in those situations, you're
Speaker 5: only thinking about what you need to say. You need
Speaker 5: to be thinking what's going to help as you think
Speaker 5: of what they're going to be thinking about, because they're
Speaker 5: going to me think of what what do you what's
Speaker 5: going on here? Uh, there's new element. What's going on?
Speaker 5: Is it's there? The fight or flight's gonna kick in
Speaker 5: of you know, how should I handle this new threat?
Speaker 5: What do you want? Get to the point like that
Speaker 5: kind of stuff.
Speaker 1: Yeah. It's like when you're there at the door, Yeah beautiful, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: like you're so yeah yeah, yeah, there you go, and
Speaker 1: the guys like.
Speaker 8: Who are you?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 5: Yeah exactly, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's the what's that oh
Speaker 5: brother way out though he's shooting the taxman the kids,
Speaker 5: he's like, good boy, yeah yeah yeah. So I love
Speaker 5: frames and they can be used also in the productive sense.
Speaker 5: So let's Let's say you need you want to talk
Speaker 5: to somebody for later today, and you might say, Hey,
Speaker 5: I need to talk to you about the budget for
Speaker 5: tomorrow's meeting. I'm gonna walk away with us being on
Speaker 5: the same page that work, and then right there you
Speaker 5: just like you know, instead of like, hey, you got
Speaker 5: five minutes, and then you're gonna lead. And then what
Speaker 5: typically happens is you go, hey, so I'm thinking, and
Speaker 5: you can tell me if I'm wrong about this, but
Speaker 5: and then you just start kind of wandering and then
Speaker 5: and then the other person is going, where is this going?
Speaker 5: What's the point? And then we have the problem. You
Speaker 5: see this a lot in relationships. You have the tendency
Speaker 5: to want to cut in, Oh you want me to
Speaker 5: do this like no, no, no, no, wait wait wait no,
Speaker 5: that's not it I need because they don't know how
Speaker 5: to land the plane, so they just kind of talk
Speaker 5: and circles. So you can put this in the context
Speaker 5: of needing permission. So if it's hey, I like to
Speaker 5: talk to you about your ranch and I want to
Speaker 5: walk away with getting your permission on being able to
Speaker 5: hunt here, is that all right? Like just having that conversation,
Speaker 5: putting it in a one two three framework. Now you're
Speaker 5: gonna have to tailor it for whatever is most comfortable
Speaker 5: for you. But it's a great way of letting them
Speaker 5: know out at the outset of what's the ask, because
Speaker 5: I find that a lot of your your property owners,
Speaker 5: really anybody, they just want to say get to the point.
Speaker 5: They want as little time as possible with you, and
Speaker 5: so you have a very small window to like just
Speaker 5: say I like to talk with you about X, and
Speaker 5: I would want like I can say maybe, and I
Speaker 5: want to walk away with a feeling or I want
Speaker 5: to that's more of the business sense for you, I
Speaker 5: want to walk away. Ideally, I want to talk with you,
Speaker 5: to walk away with this permission of doing X, Y
Speaker 5: and Z, Like I'm telling you right now, the goal
Speaker 5: for the conversation, what's the finish line for that conversation,
Speaker 5: Because a lot of people will they start talking and
Speaker 5: they just they don't know where they want to land.
Speaker 5: So saying that upfront might help.
Speaker 7: Yeah, a few more notes on that. I find that
Speaker 7: occasionally I've gotten permission because that person was just in
Speaker 7: a really good mood whenever I happen to talk to them,
Speaker 7: or on the contrary, like they just got done yelling
Speaker 7: at their naughty fourteen year old and they're in a
Speaker 7: bad mood.
Speaker 5: Yeah, when I come ask them for this giant.
Speaker 7: Favor, how can I like butter them up or get
Speaker 7: them in a good mood at the offset. So it's,
Speaker 7: you know, increases my chances by percent?
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, assuming too much. Yeah, yeah, I'm in a
Speaker 4: bad mood.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he's tried, you know, being like you know, three
Speaker 1: lawyers walk into a bar, just start out talking.
Speaker 4: About your warranty, your extended warranty.
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Let me tell you. So I was
Speaker 5: this is probably about seven months ago or so, and uh,
Speaker 5: my wife and I were at Target. Really, she was
Speaker 5: a Target. I was just there and.
Speaker 1: Uh watching her.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I was watching her at Target, and uh, we're
Speaker 5: how I while she's a checkout, I really wanted I
Speaker 5: wanted some ice cream. I was at Targets, like, look,
Speaker 5: if I'm gonna be here, I'm gonna get myself some
Speaker 5: ice cream. So I went down and got like one
Speaker 5: of those little bitty small ice creams. They don't have
Speaker 5: any spoons. I don't know what to do about it.
Speaker 5: So I'm thinking, and uh, there's a Starbucks inside this
Speaker 5: Target and so I go up, I don't want anything
Speaker 5: at Starbucks and they don't have just spoons available, and
Speaker 5: so I I. The lady did not look like she
Speaker 5: was in a good mood, and so I my car.
Speaker 5: Here we go. Let's see what we can do. I'll
Speaker 5: walk in. I say I need a miracle. You think
Speaker 5: you can.
Speaker 4: Perform a miracle?
Speaker 5: And she goes, she immediately bright and she goes, I
Speaker 5: just might I said, I said, I got this ice cream,
Speaker 5: I don't got a spoon, And without me even asking,
Speaker 5: she goes, well, I got a spoon you can have
Speaker 5: and went got it and brought it out right there.
Speaker 5: And I said, well, you just you can tell everybody
Speaker 5: he performed a miracle today. And she, I mean she
Speaker 5: we just got to have that. So it's that element
Speaker 5: of humor, that that levity in it that even if
Speaker 5: you were to say knock on the door and say
Speaker 5: I need a miracle from you, or I mean, even
Speaker 5: if it's something that's very lighthearted, they people tend to
Speaker 5: open up just to have a little bit of fun
Speaker 5: and humor as long as the compliments you one, because
Speaker 5: a lot of the times compliments from your someone you're
Speaker 5: asking something for They're like, what do you need? What
Speaker 5: do you want? Oh?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I was joking about the beautiful that's exact jokes,
Speaker 1: like a beautiful ranch you got here right right? Yeah?
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1: The hell is this guy?
Speaker 6: There's gonna be a door, there's gonna be some rancher
Speaker 6: somewhere in eastern Montana. It's like, where'd you get that miracle?
Speaker 1: I need a miracle? Wne.
Speaker 4: I've heard that twenty times this season exactly. Oh yeah,
Speaker 4: that's exactly.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 8: With uh with Spencer scenario, when would be the time
Speaker 8: to bring up like offering to do work in exchange, Like,
Speaker 8: because if you're gonna throw it right out there that
Speaker 8: you're looking for permission, when would you say I'd be willing.
Speaker 5: To Oh so I would put that right in the frame. Yeah,
Speaker 5: so I would say something along the lines of, once
Speaker 5: you say hello, whatever, I like to talk with you
Speaker 5: about your your your beautiful ranch here, and I ideally
Speaker 5: I love to walk away with a relationship where I
Speaker 5: work on this property for you and exchange for permission
Speaker 5: for me to be able to do some hunting.
Speaker 1: Mmmm.
Speaker 5: That worke And I mean like that is out of
Speaker 5: the gate, right out of the gate rather than and
Speaker 5: it's not wasting their time. They're not going to get
Speaker 5: anxious over like, who's this stranger at my door? And
Speaker 5: you're saying it right up front, rather than them going,
Speaker 5: you know, what do you need and you're going, I mean,
Speaker 5: i'll work. I mean in exchange, I'll do.
Speaker 8: They might have said no, but i'll And the thing.
Speaker 5: Is they're already thinking no, I mean right out the gate.
Speaker 5: Before you they even answer open the door, they're thinking no.
Speaker 5: I mean, that's just they're probably not even gonna want
Speaker 5: to come to the door. I mean, how many people
Speaker 5: even when somebody knocks on somebody's door, now, it's like,
Speaker 5: what is this maniac doing here? Like nobody wants to
Speaker 5: be at somebody's house anymore.
Speaker 1: Someone knocked on our door last night. I said to
Speaker 1: my kid, I said, who in the world, I said,
Speaker 1: peek around the corner. Is it a man or a woman?
Speaker 5: Yeah? Exactly exactly. People will just say, so.
Speaker 1: My wife gets up, Yeah, that's awesome. One of those
Speaker 1: dudes tried to do solar. Oh yeah, we got that.
Speaker 4: The other night.
Speaker 3: All of our dogs started barking. We're like, we're gonna
Speaker 3: look at the video cameras.
Speaker 1: I don't like to send them off.
Speaker 4: The door open. I'm like, come on him.
Speaker 1: I do love it.
Speaker 6: When when all the dogs start barking, because then they
Speaker 6: feel like they have to apologize right out of the gate.
Speaker 4: Sure, and you have that for hands.
Speaker 1: I want to hit you with one. I know you're
Speaker 1: like the expert, but I want to hit and w
Speaker 1: I just stumbled into contractors. Yeah, you got something's wrong
Speaker 1: with your You gotta call plumber, right. You know what
Speaker 1: I started doing this is just extremely effective. A guy
Speaker 1: he calls the plumber. A lot of guys are gonna
Speaker 1: want to like puff up a little bit.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 1: What I've started doing and it works so good, is
Speaker 1: to be like, man, when it comes to electrical I'm
Speaker 1: a moron. Yeah. Yeah, Like I look in that mechanical room, dude,
Speaker 1: all I see is like wires and pipes. Right. They're like, oh,
Speaker 1: it's getting aarticular.
Speaker 5: You know, it's image.
Speaker 1: A lot of guys like, well, you know, I try
Speaker 1: to x y and you know, you know I could
Speaker 1: probably figure it out, right, you know, I'm a little busy. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm like, man, I look onto that thing, dude, I
Speaker 1: have no idea what I'm looking.
Speaker 5: At Yeah, that's incredibly effective because it works. Let me
Speaker 5: tell you the reason why. It's because if you instantly
Speaker 5: become the student and they become the teacher, and people
Speaker 5: love to teach, people love to share their knowledge.
Speaker 1: I'm also not lying, yeah, well you have in floor heating.
Speaker 1: When I look at my mechanic, yeah, I don't know
Speaker 1: what I'm doing.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Uh.
Speaker 5: Nate Bargatsi, who I'm a huge fan of, has this
Speaker 5: bit about when people is like his wife is the
Speaker 5: one who knows all the man knowledge. Let's put like
Speaker 5: he knows knows everything. And so she called somebody to
Speaker 5: fix a water heater and he opens up and he's
Speaker 5: like ha, and the guy's like, I'm here here to
Speaker 5: do your water heater. And he's like, yeah, they're in there,
Speaker 5: you know, somewhere, Like he has no idea where it is.
Speaker 1: So he's always like.
Speaker 5: I know nothing about it. And so he's always like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 5: that's I agree. That's probably that we probably do need
Speaker 5: a new one. Just replace the whole thing, you know,
Speaker 5: like you have something to sell, Like it's it's fantastic.
Speaker 5: But yeah, that's an excellent strategy because there's no there's
Speaker 5: no battle of the ego, because we have such a
Speaker 5: feeling of to have any kind of credibility, I have
Speaker 5: to feel like, you know, I did this and I
Speaker 5: tried that, and I did this and I tried that.
Speaker 1: Because dudes feel emasculated.
Speaker 5: Absolutely, but I just emasculate myself and that's genius. It's
Speaker 5: genius to be able to to do the And I
Speaker 5: mean the thing is I think wives pick up on
Speaker 5: this of like it takes a really smart guy to
Speaker 5: be that dumb kind of thing where it's like, no,
Speaker 5: you're just trying to get out of it. Yeah, Like
Speaker 5: I don't know how to fold these clothes. Yeah you do,
Speaker 5: like you just not kind of I'm not very good
Speaker 5: at loading the disc rusher. Yeah you are. It's cool.
Speaker 7: My wife is described it as weaponized and competence. Yeah,
Speaker 7: but she's learned about it, so.
Speaker 5: I love that. Yeah, yeah, absolutely well. And I want
Speaker 5: to also pick up on something too, of the how
Speaker 5: do you kind of break the mold with somebody when
Speaker 5: you're first trying to ask something from them, or really
Speaker 5: anytime and this could be yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, is
Speaker 5: you you say exactly what they're thinking in the reverse way.
Speaker 5: I want to explain it. So let's say if if
Speaker 5: I was going to tell you something and I and
Speaker 5: I said, I don't mean this disuspectfully, and I say something,
Speaker 5: how are you going to take it?
Speaker 1: You're probably the same way when someone says I don't
Speaker 1: want to get political exactly, and I'm like, please don't,
Speaker 1: yeah exactly.
Speaker 5: Exactly, Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And so it's that it's any
Speaker 5: time you say look.
Speaker 1: It's like okay, yeah, then stop talking because you're good.
Speaker 1: Then don't then don't.
Speaker 5: Yeah, one say when somebody says I don't mean to
Speaker 5: be rude, and then they say the rudest thing you've
Speaker 5: ever heard, or whatever it is, you know, I don't,
Speaker 5: I don't mean this to best.
Speaker 1: Exactly exactly.
Speaker 5: The most Yeah, yeah exactly. So instead what you do
Speaker 5: is you flip it. So, in other words, when you're
Speaker 5: coming up to that person, maybe instead of going like,
Speaker 5: I don't want to waste your time, what are they
Speaker 5: thinking you're wasting my time? Instead of exactly now, instead
Speaker 5: you say it for them, instead of instead of saying
Speaker 5: it's not that case when they both know it is,
Speaker 5: because they they're gonna people naturally want to say the
Speaker 5: reverse of what you're thinking. So instead say you're probably
Speaker 5: you probably think I'm wasting your time, and then say it.
Speaker 1: Oh I don't like this.
Speaker 5: Yeah, well that's not and I am, well I am
Speaker 5: wasting Well you could say that of Let's say if you.
Speaker 8: Said forgiving me some of your time, or you.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I don't, because then you're just telling you're confirming.
Speaker 5: I would either you say you probably think I'm here
Speaker 5: to bother you, okay, and then then they'll actually listen,
Speaker 5: because if you say I'm sorry to bother you, it's
Speaker 5: just the opposite. Or if it's let's say you and
Speaker 5: I are in a converse and you don't really trust me,
Speaker 5: are you You're already I can just tell what I'm
Speaker 5: doing as I'm labeling what you're not gonna like about me.
Speaker 5: So it may not be leading with that, but it
Speaker 5: could be something like, look, I know you probably don't
Speaker 5: trust me, and then you're gonna think the opposite rather
Speaker 5: than me saying and now I need you to trust me.
Speaker 5: Here you're automatically going to go no, I don't trust
Speaker 5: anything that you say. So when you have the people
Speaker 5: love to think the opposite. So if I say you
Speaker 5: can't do that, what's the first thing you think of yeah,
Speaker 5: I can. So we have this really quick switch of
Speaker 5: thinking the opposite of whatever you say. So if you
Speaker 5: say it as if on their behalf, now you probably
Speaker 5: think I'm you most likely think X, Y and Z.
Speaker 5: Their head goes, no, I don't you think the opposite
Speaker 5: of It's a It's a really great technique that I
Speaker 5: that I like, what's.
Speaker 1: The movie where it is a is it Mandalorian or something.
Speaker 1: There's like a dangerous seeming person and there's like a
Speaker 1: point in the movie where they say to a person,
Speaker 1: you can stay here and die or come with me
Speaker 1: and live.
Speaker 5: All right, I hope it's some into Lauri and I
Speaker 5: love that show, and it's like, uh, you know, and
Speaker 5: it's sort of presenting a way where the person's.
Speaker 1: Like I'll go with you, yeah, yeahs against all like
Speaker 1: against all visual Yeah, you know what I mean. There's
Speaker 1: like a like a surprising way of yeah. I don't
Speaker 1: even know what that is. As a rhetorical strategy.
Speaker 5: You're just you're narrowing the choices. So whenever you can
Speaker 5: like give them a set of chic you're just.
Speaker 4: You're I mean, I think the actual line is I
Speaker 4: can take you in warm, or I can take you
Speaker 4: in cold.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I know you're right. That's what it is. A
Speaker 1: good war.
Speaker 5: That's so good, What a great line.
Speaker 1: They're like, yeah, I gotta go warm. Yeah, I'll go warm.
Speaker 5: So anytime you you you can give people choices in conversation,
Speaker 5: they they love it. Rather, it's like I say this
Speaker 5: in the book. When you talk about everything, you talk
Speaker 5: about nothing. So when you put a frame around the conversation,
Speaker 5: you actually get very detailed instead of coming in to saying,
Speaker 5: all right, we've got a lot to talk about today.
Speaker 5: Nobody ever feels like you leave the conversation productive. But
Speaker 5: if you can eliminate the just one thing, you're gonna
Speaker 5: be a whole lot better. But yeah, that's what that's
Speaker 5: what comes to mind for me.
Speaker 7: Can can you talk about having a hard conversation in
Speaker 7: person versus over the phone. I find that if I'm
Speaker 7: looking for permissions, it takes more, uh like more courage
Speaker 7: for me to go up to somebody's front door and
Speaker 7: talk to them then call them over the phone, But
Speaker 7: the outcome is usually better in person. It's it's harder
Speaker 7: for them to tell me no when I'm standing in.
Speaker 1: Front of them with the little child. Yeah, I have
Speaker 1: one of those, Yeah, one of anytime, I got one
Speaker 1: on crutches. Right now, you bring that kid?
Speaker 5: Do you have a wheelchair for him to exactly?
Speaker 1: I don't wative.
Speaker 7: Can you talk about thinking.
Speaker 6: That I'm manipulating you with this small child.
Speaker 4: And he's dying to talk?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, the uh Well, going to them always in person,
Speaker 5: it's always much better. There's that element of people have
Speaker 5: a harder time saying no when you're in person than
Speaker 5: over the phone because you're talking to them, same reason
Speaker 5: why people and YouTube comments will say anything, but they
Speaker 5: never say in front of you. Yeah, it's a whole
Speaker 5: I mean, it's just a whole different level of credibility
Speaker 5: and humanity to it. And whenever they can see how
Speaker 5: you look right and you can go, Okay, this person's
Speaker 5: a genuine person, or this person doesn't look trustworthy. Maybe
Speaker 5: it's just how you're dressed. Maybe it's how you're carrying yourself,
Speaker 5: maybe it's how you're smiling, maybe it's I mean, they
Speaker 5: just go, I just I don't know something about you.
Speaker 5: I just like And so that element always gets you
Speaker 5: far because they're already while you're talking, they are calculating
Speaker 5: everything about from your eyes to how you're standing. Is
Speaker 5: this a person I can trust? And so we I
Speaker 5: mean i'd see that with jurors. I mean, jurors have
Speaker 5: a we are humans, we have a sixth sense about us,
Speaker 5: knowing when someone's genuine or not. Like the worst thing
Speaker 5: a witness can do on the stand is try and
Speaker 5: fail sympathy. If they're trying to like drum up tears.
Speaker 5: I mean, the jury will crucify them. A jury will
Speaker 5: oh yeah, you'll tank your case quickly. If somebody if
Speaker 5: they feel like somebody's faking it, you're done. You're done
Speaker 5: because they go, this person's a liar. I don't like
Speaker 5: anything about this person.
Speaker 4: I feel like that's got to be good to see.
Speaker 4: It's got to make you feel good about humanity. Yeah,
Speaker 4: oh yeah, yeah yeah.
Speaker 1: I mean when you get permissions, don't go up and start.
Speaker 5: Crying, right exactly, right, yeah, yeah, you know what. Yeah,
Speaker 5: this reminds me of the time I broke.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah yeah.
Speaker 5: So when you're I I also would think it's the
Speaker 5: landowner when somebody has the guts to come all that way,
Speaker 5: drive all that way and come to you face to face,
Speaker 5: so they would say, you know, I don't care if
Speaker 5: it's a man or woman. But if that's the term
Speaker 5: main a man or whatever it is, you know, you
Speaker 5: come up and talk to me. And that's absolutely So
Speaker 5: I did this once. Uh it wasn't hunting, but I
Speaker 5: needed this location for something with a trial, and this
Speaker 5: guy owned the property. I talked him on the phone.
Speaker 5: He said no, immediate, no, no, no. But I waited
Speaker 5: a week, went to his house, knocked on his door.
Speaker 5: I wasn't wearing a suit, just wore regular clothes and
Speaker 5: told him what I was there for. And he goes, yeah,
Speaker 5: that's fine, you can do that, I mean, and nothing
Speaker 5: really changed.
Speaker 3: She didn't say that you were the person who called.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 5: No, No, I didn't say that I was a person
Speaker 5: who called, but he I didn't leave with that, but
Speaker 5: he did ask are you the one that called? And
Speaker 5: I said, yeah, I am, but I wanted to meet
Speaker 5: you in person, And so that just changed the dynamic.
Speaker 5: When there's something about a handshake, there's something about, you know,
Speaker 5: looking somebody in the eye where that sends a different frequency,
Speaker 5: a different signal of trustworthiness in the conversation. It's easy
Speaker 5: to say no to a telemarket or whoever, or just
Speaker 5: not answer the.
Speaker 3: Phone, Randall, can you hit him with two of yours?
Speaker 3: I feel like are on the same wavelength.
Speaker 4: I like him.
Speaker 6: This is by the way, this is Oh, do you
Speaker 6: have a hunting trip planned this one and a friend
Speaker 6: asked to join you? You don't want them to come
Speaker 6: either because you want to go alone. You think they'll
Speaker 6: ruin the experience, or you don't think they'll enjoy the experience.
Speaker 6: How do you tell them that they can't join you
Speaker 6: without jeopardizing the relationship?
Speaker 5: That's a great question.
Speaker 3: Uh.
Speaker 5: And this kind of speaks a little bit to the
Speaker 5: compliment insult sandwich a little bit which I'm looking forward
Speaker 5: to discuss it. It's this so where I've seen it
Speaker 5: gone bad as people lead with the oh, man, you know,
Speaker 5: i'd love to you know, you're my best friend. Oh
Speaker 5: you know I loved and they just they shower the compliment,
Speaker 5: they shower the the fluff and then uh then they
Speaker 5: end it with the word. But that's that's what happens.
Speaker 5: I mean in relationships. I love you, Hey, I love you,
Speaker 5: but you're driving me crazy, or you know, you're have
Speaker 5: a difficult conversation and you say, yeah, you're you're fantastic.
Speaker 5: How's everything going is good, listen uh, and then everything
Speaker 5: takes like that's that's how it happens. Is you have
Speaker 5: that conversation, Hey, how's it going good? Every family's good,
Speaker 5: so listen uh, and then all of a sudden, you know,
Speaker 5: the whole tenor of the conversation changes. And so the
Speaker 5: same with the butt. You're gonna break up with somebody,
Speaker 5: it's I you're so great. You know, I've loved everything
Speaker 5: we've done together. But and then they just know it's
Speaker 5: it's what the word butt does is delete everything in
Speaker 5: front of it, because it just shows that you didn't
Speaker 5: really care.
Speaker 1: Sure.
Speaker 5: It just has a way of just backspace, backspace, backspace.
Speaker 5: So what I would recommend for this friend instead of going,
Speaker 5: oh man, you know, I'd love for you to come.
Speaker 5: But instead of that, I would I tell people to
Speaker 5: flip it. Start with the no. Now, I wouldn't just
Speaker 5: leave with no period. For your friend. It's it's it's
Speaker 5: your buddy, it's it's your power. I I like to
Speaker 5: say things when I'm really uncomfortable about it, say I
Speaker 5: made a promise to myself, because then then they can't
Speaker 5: ever disagree with it, they can't like argue with it.
Speaker 5: If you say, look, I promised myself I was gonna
Speaker 5: do a solo hunting trip this year. I'd love for
Speaker 5: you to come on the next one. I'd love for
Speaker 5: you to come in. Uh, it's just not gonna work
Speaker 5: out this time around, as simple as that. It's gonna
Speaker 5: work instead of oh, man, you know, I love to
Speaker 5: you for you to come, but I'm just gonna I'm
Speaker 5: just gonna go buy myself on this one. Thanks. Mm hmm.
Speaker 5: That's gonna feel a little bit less instead of I
Speaker 5: say this. It's the same kind of technique when I
Speaker 5: say you need to if it's you who needs to
Speaker 5: turn down an invitation, So it's flip it if you
Speaker 5: need to turn down an invitation. We typically saw Jo.
Speaker 1: Just please Randall come with me, right. I would love
Speaker 1: it you came with me. Yeah, he don't want to go.
Speaker 5: But he doesn't want to go. Uh, instead of the
Speaker 5: man I'd love to you know I would, but but
Speaker 5: but I but I can't make it. You know, I
Speaker 5: got What happens is we have the tendency to over explain.
Speaker 5: You know, I love to, but you know I got
Speaker 5: the I got the dog, you know, and I gotta
Speaker 5: I got a tree that's growing in the yard, Like.
Speaker 1: We have this make up the dumbest things.
Speaker 5: You know, it's anything anything, and everything ends up being
Speaker 5: you know, I got, I'm busy and you know life
Speaker 5: and I got you have three.
Speaker 4: Tariffs my ankles.
Speaker 5: It's this economy, you know. As soon as and there's
Speaker 5: that tendency you say so much that the other person
Speaker 5: just goes, Look if you just didn't want to come,
Speaker 5: just tell me, you know, it becomes disingenuous in a sense.
Speaker 5: So what I teaches you start with the no, and
Speaker 5: then you have then you instead of the gratitude the know.
Speaker 5: You begin with the know, then end with the gratitude.
Speaker 5: So instead of that thank you but I can't or
Speaker 5: thank you so much, I'm not going to do it. Uh,
Speaker 5: lead with the no. I can't make it. I hope
Speaker 5: it's a wonderful time. I've heard a whole lot of
Speaker 5: good things about it. Let me know how it goes,
Speaker 5: or I can't make it this go around, I'd love
Speaker 5: to thank you so much for inviting me. Like that's
Speaker 5: how usually goes. We'll say thank you, thank you so
Speaker 5: much for inviting me, but I can't make it. Yea,
Speaker 5: Instead say I can't make it. Thank you so much
Speaker 5: for thinking of me and invite me means a lot.
Speaker 5: I hope it's a great time. Like if you can
Speaker 5: the same thing, like if there's a new coffee shop,
Speaker 5: if you invited me to go with coffee and I
Speaker 5: couldn't make it and say no, I'd love to, but
Speaker 5: but I can't. It would be as simple as beginning.
Speaker 5: So let's put it in a framework, begin with the no.
Speaker 5: NeXT's gratitude three is if you can sprinkle in some kindness,
Speaker 5: So that is I can't make it today, Thank you
Speaker 5: so much for inviting me. I hope it's a great time.
Speaker 5: Or I heard it's a great place, or you know,
Speaker 5: I hope you hope you shoot him straight. Whatever it is.
Speaker 5: That's that's a much better way to handle it. Got you.
Speaker 1: Yeah, my body he used to have. He used to
Speaker 1: give breaking up advice for how to break up with people.
Speaker 1: I've been out of that game for a long long time.
Speaker 5: But was he just like painhandling this on the street,
Speaker 5: or like, well, he would.
Speaker 1: Tell you, I used to work for my buddy Ronnie.
Speaker 1: So he would tell the guys. So Ronnie, like a
Speaker 1: lot of guys would work for Ronnie at the age
Speaker 1: when we worked for Ronnie was when you were you know, eighteen,
Speaker 1: nineteen twenty whatever. And so he would be irritated with
Speaker 1: these guys that would be in these relationships that they're together,
Speaker 1: broke up together, broke up. So he had like this
Speaker 1: school of thought on breakups. I love that he didn't.
Speaker 1: Like he would advise, when you break up with someone,
Speaker 1: you can never give the idea that there's something they
Speaker 1: could do to improve things. Right, it's just not working out.
Speaker 5: That's so true.
Speaker 1: We just don't right, So true. Ronnie would say, it's this.
Speaker 1: He would advise you to go say this has nothing
Speaker 1: to do with you. This is just entirely me. We're done, Okay, Yeah,
Speaker 1: do you like that? That was what he advised because
Speaker 1: he's like, anytime you go, well, it's just I feel well,
Speaker 1: it's it's the yeah, you're creating a thing like well
Speaker 1: maybe if I change yes, yeah, and it's just like,
Speaker 1: it really has nothing to do with you. This is
Speaker 1: my it's just me, like, we're done.
Speaker 5: Yeah. So this is the category I put this in
Speaker 5: on having a sensitive conversation. It's a little bit different
Speaker 5: because most of the time in sensitive conversations let's say
Speaker 5: you need to fire somebody, let them go. Let's say
Speaker 5: you need to break up. I mean that's essentially what
Speaker 5: that is.
Speaker 1: Uh.
Speaker 5: We have the tendency to begin with the small talk
Speaker 5: of let's say you need to let somebody go. They
Speaker 5: sit down in your office and he goes, so, how
Speaker 5: you doing everything? Good as your how's your mom? How's
Speaker 5: y'all do do? I saw you all went fishing the
Speaker 5: other day. You didn'ty good?
Speaker 1: We're exactly were you fishing? Yeah exactly, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.
Speaker 1: And then and then you turn it.
Speaker 5: Then you go so listen, uh and they know, Okay,
Speaker 5: it's the worst something's coming. This is terrible, Uh, the
Speaker 5: worst thing ever. Or the same thing with the if
Speaker 5: you're having a conversation with your girlfriend and go, I've
Speaker 5: really enjoyed being together. All of a sudden you're talking
Speaker 5: in past tense, right, all of a sudden you're in
Speaker 5: past tense, and they're like, oh, what's happening?
Speaker 1: Hey?
Speaker 5: I think you're so great, you know, I really love
Speaker 5: what And they're just waiting for it the whole entire time,
Speaker 5: and it's it's.
Speaker 1: Not really yeah yeah, yeah exactly, and then it's like
Speaker 1: it's not you, it's me.
Speaker 4: You remember that. Yeah, yeah, that we were together.
Speaker 1: Yeah was like, you know, I've enjoyed our time, but uh,
Speaker 1: no reason to think we're not going to continue exactly.
Speaker 5: You know, whenever you say like, you know, I think
Speaker 5: the world of you, like that kind of stuff, that
Speaker 5: kind of stuff is like they know something is coming.
Speaker 5: Instead when it's instead of using that fluff language, you
Speaker 5: tell them this is going to be difficult, and you
Speaker 5: can apply this for anything, and you this is so
Speaker 5: instead of the fluff, you begin with something that sounds
Speaker 5: like this is going to be a hard conversation. Or
Speaker 5: it can be as simple as this is going to
Speaker 5: be a difficult conversation, or you're going to say you're
Speaker 5: not gonna like what I have to say?
Speaker 8: What about the one like your old man used to
Speaker 8: give you, Like this is gonna hurt you more than
Speaker 8: it's gonna hit me.
Speaker 5: Yeah that Oh yeah, it's always a lie. You know,
Speaker 5: it's always a lie. But if they if if even
Speaker 5: if they you said something like you're not gonna like
Speaker 5: what I have to say, or this is gonna come
Speaker 5: as a surprise to you, or this isn't gonna be
Speaker 5: fun to discuss whatever that is. That is what you're
Speaker 5: doing is preparing them, like readying them for that conversation.
Speaker 5: Because if I set you down and we're gonna have
Speaker 5: a talk and I said, Krin, you're not gonna like
Speaker 5: what I have to say, You're gonna kind of you're
Speaker 5: gonna kind of like ready yourself to be like okay.
Speaker 5: Like that's how your your brain first is gonna say okay,
Speaker 5: and then you're gonna deliver the pitch. Yeah, yeah, whatever
Speaker 5: it is. So, but that's how it would say. So
Speaker 5: let's say we needed to break up or something. It'd say, look, grin'
Speaker 5: this is gonna or I could put on me I'm
Speaker 5: having a our time. I would put it as I
Speaker 5: don't like this conversation, or I've been really dreading this conversation,
Speaker 5: something as simple as that, like showing a little bit
Speaker 5: of vulnerability of I've really been dreading this conversation we're
Speaker 5: about to have, or I'm not gonna like this conversation,
Speaker 5: whatever that is. And then the next thing out of
Speaker 5: your mouth is we need to it's it's time, we
Speaker 5: need to break up, mm blah blah blah. Or let's
Speaker 5: say you need to let them.
Speaker 1: Go down some time, time things down.
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, that kind of stuff is that can be painful.
Speaker 5: So instead of the let's say, if I need to
Speaker 5: fire you, you come in say this might come as
Speaker 5: a shock to you. I need to let you go. Hm,
Speaker 5: you've been You've been a fantastic Now I'm giving the conversation.
Speaker 5: Yeah yeah, now see now I'm given the compliment Like
Speaker 5: now now I'm giving the compliment of you've been a
Speaker 5: great part of the team. Left having you, I'm looking
Speaker 5: forward to after that. Yes, now you're kind of like
Speaker 5: trying to show because now it's genuine. Now it's genuine
Speaker 5: instead of the hand yeah, instead of you being nervous,
Speaker 5: instead of you being nervous, instead of you saying you're
Speaker 5: such a great part of the team. You know, we
Speaker 5: really And now they're thinking where's this going? Where's this going?
Speaker 5: When you lead with the exactly exactly, But everybody's always
Speaker 5: waiting for the butt, they're waiting for the down, they're
Speaker 5: always thinking the worst. So if you lead with the
Speaker 5: this is going to be a difficult conversation. I need
Speaker 5: to let you go. You've been an awesome part of
Speaker 5: the team, and I look forward to where you go
Speaker 5: in your career. It's just it's just not going to
Speaker 5: be here. I mean that kind of thing is way
Speaker 5: more credibility like that, or even if you lead with
Speaker 5: like yeah, and I look forward to helping you, you know,
Speaker 5: move forward and wherever you're going to be in your career.
Speaker 5: If you feel like this is somebody you really enjoyed
Speaker 5: and you really do wish the best for them, because
Speaker 5: it's because then they'll start switching the conversation to where
Speaker 5: they go next, what happens next. Rather than complaining about
Speaker 5: the present and saying what's wrong with me? What could
Speaker 5: I have done better? You're staying the decision has been
Speaker 5: on and even if I say no, this is a
Speaker 5: me decision. So that that's that's kind of like the
Speaker 5: what Ronnie was saying. Ronnie, right, I'm saying that this
Speaker 5: is this is uh, this is a me things.
Speaker 1: I wish he could clean it up.
Speaker 4: Right now. It doesn't subscribe to your Instagram channel?
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, so you a finessed that a little.
Speaker 1: What what what I'm picking up about what you're talking about.
Speaker 1: I don't know if you frame it this way in
Speaker 1: your book, but a lot of it is people think
Speaker 1: of conversations a lot of times where they're living and
Speaker 1: they're trying to jump in the other person's head. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but a lot of what you're saying would kind of
Speaker 1: it almost makes it easier for the deliverer. Yes, Like
Speaker 1: I could picture if you're dreading firing somebody right right,
Speaker 1: it's terrible, Like I've had this, it's terrible.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 1: If you just came and then you're doing the well,
Speaker 1: how's this, how's that?
Speaker 5: It's all for you.
Speaker 1: Yeah, if you just said, like you, I have some
Speaker 1: bad I have some some bad news to deliver to you. Yeah,
Speaker 1: all of a sudden, you're probably going.
Speaker 5: Dude exactly, and then everything else becomes downhill easier because
Speaker 5: what you're doing when you're trying to lead with before you,
Speaker 5: because the whole conversation is bad news, you're just putting
Speaker 5: a label on the whole thing. So if I were
Speaker 5: to sit down and you sit down and go, I
Speaker 5: got bad news. Like my team, I have a very
Speaker 5: small team. But if anything's going on what they do
Speaker 5: with me that I've asked for, they say, You're not
Speaker 5: gonna like what I'm about to say. That's what they say.
Speaker 5: So I'll pick up the phone and the first thing
Speaker 5: they'll say is Jefferson, you're not gonna like what I
Speaker 5: have to say, Or they'll say you're not gonna like this.
Speaker 5: That's what they'll do. I'll say, They'll say you're not
Speaker 5: gonna like this, and I'll always go, okay, I'm ready,
Speaker 5: And whatever I'm thinking of is not as bad as
Speaker 5: what they say. You know, I always think of to
Speaker 5: the worst, like possible scenario. So that's when they pick
Speaker 5: up the phone they say, you're not gonna like this,
Speaker 5: I'll go ready. No, I mean, that's typically how I
Speaker 5: handle it. But yeah, any it's it's much kinder on
Speaker 5: the other person. So in terms of let's talk benefits,
Speaker 5: it's much kinder on the other person because they're not
Speaker 5: getting this, where are we going with this? I'm getting anxious,
Speaker 5: they feel the hammer being dropped. Yeah, you're getting straight
Speaker 5: to the point. So a lot of the ways that
Speaker 5: clarity is is kindness. Being direct can be a lot
Speaker 5: of a relief, and it's much better on you because
Speaker 5: instead of looking at this big hill I gotta get over,
Speaker 5: I'm I'm I'm used the front door. That's what is
Speaker 5: there for.
Speaker 8: That's kind of a lot different than the duck blind
Speaker 8: bad caller thing because you could use it on the
Speaker 8: bad caller.
Speaker 5: Yeah yeah you could, Yeah, you certainly could. You may
Speaker 5: don't want to do that in the blind with them
Speaker 5: while you're trying to call that.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 4: The line in that scenario I've always used is now's
Speaker 4: not the time to practice.
Speaker 1: That's a great one.
Speaker 5: That's a great one.
Speaker 4: Today we're here to kill stuff.
Speaker 1: Yeah, practice, I want to hear with a very quick one.
Speaker 1: It's a life or death one muscle control. Someone's practicing
Speaker 1: bad muscle control. You just right, how do you hit them?
Speaker 1: You just got to hit them.
Speaker 4: Right front door?
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I have had a trial
Speaker 5: coach and in law school he would the whole point
Speaker 5: would be instead of just trying to say things, help,
Speaker 5: hope that Jerry figures it out, they use the front door.
Speaker 5: That's what is there for. And so it's that kind
Speaker 5: of mentality when you're talking about life or death, when
Speaker 5: you're talking about we could really injure somebody, you be
Speaker 5: direct as you can. There's no sugar coating, there's no
Speaker 5: I really care so much about your feelings. This is
Speaker 5: we're saving lives.
Speaker 1: You know, I love you, man, Yeah, you know, I
Speaker 1: love hanging out with you. Yeah, yeah, it's great to
Speaker 1: have you here, you know, but uh, yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: sometimes I notice your muslim at my forehead.
Speaker 5: Exactly exactly exactly.
Speaker 4: It's currently aimed at my ankle. Yeah, I don't like
Speaker 4: that either.
Speaker 5: But yeah, yeah, there's definitely sometimes for true conversation. But
Speaker 5: when you're out in the field like that, yeah, sometimes
Speaker 5: you just gotta you gotta lay it out because it's, uh,
Speaker 5: it's either that or your ankle. It's kind of the mandalorian.
Speaker 1: Who's got this one that's in purple right now.
Speaker 4: Do you ever run across trial attorneys where you're like, now,
Speaker 4: it's not not the time to practice here, go get go,
Speaker 4: get yourself a coach.
Speaker 5: Uh are you talking about like ed in trial and
Speaker 5: co with your I mean typically not, because you have
Speaker 5: like a first chair, second chair. There's kind of a hierarchy.
Speaker 5: I I like going to trials by myself at the
Speaker 5: table because I don't want the jury thinking that I
Speaker 5: have like a huge team. So I will only bring
Speaker 5: one pair legal and they'll sit in the back. I
Speaker 5: don't have like a whole and I carry my own boxes.
Speaker 5: I don't have the others. I have like a pair
Speaker 5: of legal brings in like all their boxes, and they're
Speaker 5: the ones that they think that they're like the talent.
Speaker 5: They have to sit at the table and everybody else
Speaker 5: bring them snacks and stuff. Anyway, Uh yeah, I probably
Speaker 5: probably not, not in the trial sense, but there are
Speaker 5: times in it, let's say, in a deposition, they'll like
Speaker 5: try and slide you questions that you think you should ask,
Speaker 5: and sometimes they're valuable. But I've had it where I've
Speaker 5: had like a very new associate where I read the
Speaker 5: first one and it was like an absolute horrible question,
Speaker 5: Like it was absolutely not I'm not gonna because I
Speaker 5: know in my head if I asked that that's what's
Speaker 5: going to happen. He doesn't have that knowledge yet, so
Speaker 5: instead he might just pass it and without looking I
Speaker 5: just pass it back. You know. It's like we'll talk
Speaker 5: about it in a break. Let me use as a
Speaker 5: teaching moment. But I like that your head's thinking. I
Speaker 5: like that you're trying to It's like that, I like
Speaker 5: that you're trying to practice. I like that you're trying
Speaker 5: to be part of what we're doing. Now is not
Speaker 5: the time, Let's.
Speaker 1: Do one more because it was a good one. Randall
Speaker 1: you you're one about money.
Speaker 6: Oh yes, Uh, you would like to spend or may
Speaker 6: have already spent an excessive amount of money on a
Speaker 6: trip or piece of gear. How do you rationalize it
Speaker 6: to your partner or to a friend. Okay, Like sometimes
Speaker 6: you have like a a stupid purchase and people are like, wow,
Speaker 6: you spent money on that or whatever.
Speaker 4: I mean, I feel like this is one of the awkward.
Speaker 6: Conversations that that you run into.
Speaker 1: Now.
Speaker 6: It's like, how do you old a case for something
Speaker 6: that is valuable to you but maybe not to other people?
Speaker 2: Oh?
Speaker 4: Yeah. Sometimes you have like a friend and you know
Speaker 4: all about them, and all of a sudden they show
Speaker 4: up with a brand new track and you're like, god,
Speaker 4: I hope somebody died. Yeah, you can't have. You shouldn't
Speaker 4: be getting a new.
Speaker 5: Track, right, Yeah, it's like the last thing they should
Speaker 5: be doing.
Speaker 1: If you're talking about in a relationship, when you pool
Speaker 1: your money and you've got to go buy something you
Speaker 1: can't you want to, you don't still want to be
Speaker 1: bothered trying to explain why you had to buy it.
Speaker 8: I don't know if it's a big expense and you're
Speaker 8: you're like springing it on them, afterwards.
Speaker 1: Well, that's where we're here to ask the extent and.
Speaker 7: To add context. We've we pulled our audience before five
Speaker 7: hundred listeners asked a question, have you ever lied to
Speaker 7: a significant other about the price of gear? And it
Speaker 7: was over seventy percent of them have lied to a
Speaker 7: significant other.
Speaker 5: They probably lied on that too, They probably I've obfuscated
Speaker 5: the price of gear yeah, yeah.
Speaker 7: Okay, rather than you were like massaging the truth.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I'll never say it was like, I'll be like
Speaker 6: it was about two hundred dollars, two hundred and eighty
Speaker 6: nine dollars.
Speaker 5: Yeah, And you find, like, I feel like the conversation
Speaker 5: is a little different when it's a spouse or a
Speaker 5: significant other versus just a buddy.
Speaker 1: You don't be a business partner, no, I mean partner.
Speaker 5: Yeah yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4: I was present at the return of an item that
Speaker 4: I had no interest in Randalls no, no, no, of
Speaker 4: my girlfriend okay, and and we we don't pull money.
Speaker 4: But I started laughing and I was like, that's how
Speaker 4: much that cost? Yeah? And you know it was a
Speaker 4: guy executing the exchange and he's like, you didn't tell
Speaker 4: her about this?
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's hilarious.
Speaker 4: My girlfriend, it's like it's not his money.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, I mean.
Speaker 4: It's a point, funny funny.
Speaker 5: I mean, like, so it comes to mind for me,
Speaker 5: is yeah, if you're pulling money, there's a very big difference.
Speaker 5: You just all of a sudden show up with, you know,
Speaker 5: a thousand dollars worth of hunting. I feel like clothes
Speaker 5: are so expensive now that you don't at least have
Speaker 5: that conversation about it. Now. To me, a lot of
Speaker 5: it is it's none other business. If it's a partner,
Speaker 5: I'm I'm gonna want to have that conversation if you
Speaker 5: can beforehand, unless you're unless you're just unless you're okay
Speaker 5: with having the fight about it later.
Speaker 6: I'm wondering how to set myself up for success in
Speaker 6: those types of conversations.
Speaker 4: Yeah, you come across a hot deal trying to keep.
Speaker 1: The relationships together. Yeah, relationship together. You're trying to get
Speaker 1: what your stuff.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I don't want to say like, hey, I know
Speaker 6: this is really stupid, Okay, but there's this.
Speaker 5: Basically how he did that. He's how he did that.
Speaker 5: I know this is really stupid, but yeah.
Speaker 6: See that's that's what I'm wondering. I mean, now, I'm
Speaker 6: my instincts. You've turned my head on all my instincts
Speaker 6: in these types of conversations where I'll over explain the
Speaker 6: benefits of going on said trip or or purchasing said item. Yeah,
Speaker 6: you know, how do we how do we set ourselves
Speaker 6: up for success? I like the idea of argue less,
Speaker 6: talk more, but I'd also like to win.
Speaker 9: Yeah, you know, I'm going to tell you about a
Speaker 9: gun that i'd like, and we're gonna walk away from
Speaker 9: this conversation with you understanding.
Speaker 1: That I should get this. We're gonna walk away from
Speaker 1: this conversation with me owning that gun. Yeah, yeah, yeah, Yeah.
Speaker 3: I feel like that's probably not exactly what he teaches.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a little different.
Speaker 5: It's slightly different. Like I think there's also what I
Speaker 5: have seen work is as one is whether or not
Speaker 5: you give the permission to even buy the purchase, Because
Speaker 5: if you feel like you have to get permission, then
Speaker 5: then you feel like you have to hold court on
Speaker 5: whether it is or not worth your time, is or
Speaker 5: not worth your and the you have to feel like
Speaker 5: you're over explaining, and then we get frustrated having to
Speaker 5: justify a world that they don't understand.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 5: And so instead of the hey, so I'm hoping to buy,
Speaker 5: I would switch it to I'm going to buy and
Speaker 5: that sounds a lot more definite of Hey, I'm going
Speaker 5: to go buy a rifle. And also this is this
Speaker 5: element too of and this applies to a lot of
Speaker 5: different contexts. But I say, when it comes to giving
Speaker 5: your case on something, don't be a waterfall. Be a
Speaker 5: well meaning. Instead of feeling like I have to anticipate
Speaker 5: all of your questions and I have to go ahead
Speaker 5: and fend off every arrow you're gonna send shoot my way,
Speaker 5: and I have to just blah blah blah blah blah
Speaker 5: blah blah blah, which is only going to guarantee you're
Speaker 5: gonna get a lot more questions about it. Be a
Speaker 5: well meaning, they're going to have to ask a question.
Speaker 5: You'd be very short. They're going to have to ask
Speaker 5: a question. I do this with a depositions, So I
Speaker 5: trained my witnesses to make the attorney ask the question.
Speaker 5: So don't just try and I guess where they're going
Speaker 5: with their questioning. Don't try and give the more. The
Speaker 5: longer of an answer you give, you're guaranteed to get
Speaker 5: more questions period. It's the same thing with asking anybody
Speaker 5: for anything. So if you're just gonna say, hey, I'm
Speaker 5: going out to purchase this gun nitas for this whatever trip,
Speaker 5: allow don't try and anticipate the question. Just allow them
Speaker 5: to to ask.
Speaker 1: Yeah, what if you come in and you act like
Speaker 1: you're mad about it?
Speaker 5: I got yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, that's probably a really
Speaker 5: good technique. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, it's like I gotta
Speaker 5: do this, Like then you act like it's a big
Speaker 5: uh inconvenience.
Speaker 1: Oh it'll be okay, sweet, just pick a good one.
Speaker 5: Yeah yeah, yeah, well well that's true. You can you could, uh,
Speaker 5: you could try and do that and get them on
Speaker 5: your side. Go get you a good one.
Speaker 4: But opportunity a lifetime. It's pre cited in does that exist.
Speaker 7: Yeah, you can try crying randall. If that doesn't work.
Speaker 1: Yeah, a little kid.
Speaker 5: You have a kid with a cast about.
Speaker 8: Getting to the friends, Like, do you've not got to
Speaker 8: justify that?
Speaker 6: Like no, no, I mean no, no, yeah, no, I
Speaker 6: don't know. It's just I was just trying not to
Speaker 6: make it about my marriage.
Speaker 5: Yeah, you know, so what would happen? My grandfather would
Speaker 5: say it a little bit, Yeah, my grandfather would use
Speaker 5: this line. He'd say it found its way to me.
Speaker 5: That's what he'd say, Hey, I just it's found its
Speaker 5: way to me. Like that's like he just he went
Speaker 5: out and bought way too many fishing rods or whatever
Speaker 5: it is. Lures he didn't. I remember, he came in
Speaker 5: with like a huge he learned about, like he could
Speaker 5: buy in bulk. And so we had these lures called
Speaker 5: slugos and yeah, yeah, yeah and so and uh when
Speaker 5: they first came out and uh, he goes. First thing
Speaker 5: he says was they just they found their way to me,
Speaker 5: you know, like yeah exactly. They're like, oh okay, all.
Speaker 1: Right, we're gonna wrap it up. But uh, everybody check
Speaker 1: out the next conversation. I'm gonna you know how I said,
Speaker 1: didn't read it. Yeah, I'm gonna read it.
Speaker 5: Oh awesome, thanks, I'm not lying.
Speaker 1: It sits on my bed, it sits on my stack.
Speaker 5: Yeah, thank you. Man.
Speaker 1: You're waiting behind. You're in line behind a book about
Speaker 1: jaguars and a book about Kate Buffalo. Oh all right,
Speaker 1: this comes up.
Speaker 5: This I'm honored.
Speaker 1: The next conversation, argue, let's talk more. Jefferson Fisher, thanks
Speaker 1: many learn how to get all kinds of permissions, all
Speaker 1: kinds of guns.
Speaker 4: There you go.
Speaker 1: I'm looking for how to get on public lands.
Speaker 7: I really respect Goodreads ratings. Your book has a four
Speaker 7: point six to two. That's outstanding, awesome. It's hard to
Speaker 7: find a book about four point five.
Speaker 1: So really fantastic congratulation. Thank you very much.
Speaker 5: I appreciate it.
Speaker 1: Ladies, gentlemen, Jefferson Fisher, thanks for coming on.
Speaker 5: Thanks man, Thank you