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Speaker 1: Welcome to Zero. I'm Akshatrati. This week sharkskins, plane wings

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Speaker 1: and novel things. One of the best things I get

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Speaker 1: to do in my job is to visit early stage

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Speaker 1: startups full of passionate people coming up with the solutions

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Speaker 1: to the climate problem. Some of them work with the

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Speaker 1: kind of headline grabbing tech you hear about all the time, batteries,

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Speaker 1: carbon capture, and even nuclear fusion. But there's all sorts

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Speaker 1: of weird and wonderful inventions out there which hope to

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Speaker 1: fill in the blank spaces in the net zero puzzle.

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Speaker 2: What we've made here is inspired by sharkskin. It is

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Speaker 2: much more simplified than actual sharkskin. So they're running in

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Speaker 2: this direction. Yeah, and if you your figuzz you can

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Speaker 2: hear that buzzing.

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Speaker 1: That's the voice of Henry Belinski, the founder of micro Tau,

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Speaker 1: and the high pitch noise you can hear it is

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Speaker 1: his finger running back and forth across a thin plastic film.

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Speaker 1: This is the startup's innovation, a textured film that imitates

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Speaker 1: sharkskin to reduce drag on airplanes. To the naked eye,

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Speaker 1: it's basically transparent, but when you look at it under

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Speaker 1: a microscope. You can see these tiny ridges known as riblets,

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Speaker 1: that mimic the pattern seen on sharkskin. Think about it

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Speaker 1: like a high tech wrapping paper, but for planes, all

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Speaker 1: in the service of using less fuel to fly and

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Speaker 1: thus produce fewer emissions. Aviation contributes about two percent of

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Speaker 1: global emissions, and its share is expected to rise in

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Speaker 1: coming decades, so solutions are badly needed. Henry is showing

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Speaker 1: me around a dimly lit room bathed in orange light.

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Speaker 1: This is the lab microtower uses to three D print

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Speaker 1: this film. Henry says the film can reduce fuel consumption

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Speaker 1: on planes by four percent. Now that might not sound

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Speaker 1: like much, but if the film can be rolled out

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Speaker 1: across every lane worldwide, the fuel savings and the emission

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Speaker 1: savings would be huge.

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Speaker 2: So in five to ten years time, we'll will be

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Speaker 2: flying on planes with our Sharkskin on them. But then

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Speaker 2: we'll also be having them in the water in marine applications.

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Speaker 2: We're replicating the patterns that we find in nature, and

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Speaker 2: sharks are step one and a big problem for us

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Speaker 2: to solve with big impact. But there's a whole host

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Speaker 2: of really interesting materials.

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Speaker 1: On today's episode of Zero, we hear from two startups

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Speaker 1: I met in Australia. The companies are trying to solve

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Speaker 1: very different problems, but both want to clean up existing industries. First,

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Speaker 1: we'll hear from Henry at Microtower about where he thinks

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Speaker 1: Sharkskin fits into the future of air travel, and later

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Speaker 1: in the episode we'll meet Stephen Vasaludis, the founder of Novolith,

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Speaker 1: a company trying to introduce a lower carbon form of

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Speaker 1: extracting lithium for batteries. Micro Tawer was founded in twenty sixteen.

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Speaker 1: It raised five point six million Australian dollars in a

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Speaker 1: round led by the country's Clean Energy Finance Corporation. Then

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Speaker 1: it got a three million dollar grant from the Australian government,

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Speaker 1: which will go to fund trials with the country's low

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Speaker 1: cost airline, Jetstar. I joined the startup CEO, Henry Bolinski,

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Speaker 1: at the company's office in the outskirts of Sydney earlier

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Speaker 1: this year. I also talked to Ian Leerman, the head

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Speaker 1: of the Clean Energy Finance Corporation, in a past episode

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Speaker 1: of the podcast. The link is in the show notes

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Speaker 1: if you want to hear more. Henry, Welcome to the show.

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Speaker 2: Thank you, good to be here now.

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Speaker 1: We're going to talk about sharkskin being used for good

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Speaker 1: things Before we do that, how did you come to

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Speaker 1: working on sharkskin applications for stuff?

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Speaker 2: It was an unusual way to get involved. It came

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Speaker 2: about from a global innovation challenge that the US Air

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Speaker 2: Force Research Laboratory posted. It was actually late twenty fifteen

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Speaker 2: that they posted this challenge, and they were looking for

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Speaker 2: ways to reduce their eight billion dollar a year fuel burn.

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Speaker 2: And the line's share of that came from their transport aircraft,

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Speaker 2: so big heavy planes, things like C seventeen one thirties.

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Speaker 1: Well, the Department of Defense in the US is probably

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Speaker 1: one of the largest, if not the largest, emitter of

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Speaker 1: greeno's gases.

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Speaker 2: Yep, so I know the Air Force alone spends about

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Speaker 2: ten billion dollars a year on fuel now, and so yeah,

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Speaker 2: we've got we've got planes flying overhead to demonstrate it

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Speaker 2: just for this podcast. We organize it. Oh no, we're

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Speaker 2: under the flightpath here in Sydney. But it's a it's

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Speaker 2: a nice constant reminder of what we're focusing on. And

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Speaker 2: so ten billion dollar a year in fuel, you're talking

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Speaker 2: on the order of tens of mega tons of carbon

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Speaker 2: being emitted, So at that time they were really just

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Speaker 2: focused on reducing their fuel burn in terms of saving

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Speaker 2: money and also a national security issue because you know

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Speaker 2: they're dependent on being able to burn that. So there

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Speaker 2: was a global challenge. I responded to it.

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Speaker 1: Is it a researcher.

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Speaker 2: No, I was actually getting admitted as a lawyer at

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Speaker 2: the time, but I do have a physics background, and

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Speaker 2: so I was looking at these kind of online open

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Speaker 2: innovation challenges. The thing I was interested in is whether

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Speaker 2: you could find new problems to solve with old technologies,

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Speaker 2: especially by looking to outside industries. So I tried a

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Speaker 2: number of these open innovation challenges, and this air Force

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Speaker 2: one came out. They knew about this idea of shark

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Speaker 2: skin and that the microscopic patterns that you find on

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Speaker 2: shark skin have the effect of reducing drag, and these

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Speaker 2: microopak patterns reduced drag, but they didn't really know how

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Speaker 2: to practically implement them on a huge service area like

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Speaker 2: an aircraft, And so I proposed kind of modifying a

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Speaker 2: computer chip manufacturing method called pholotography. It's a way of

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Speaker 2: printing things that are even smaller than what you need

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Speaker 2: for sharkskin with light and put that in and frankly

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Speaker 2: didn't expect to hear anything back, but was selected as

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Speaker 2: one of ten awards from around the world and went

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Speaker 2: and pitched at an air Force base in Daton, Ohio

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Speaker 2: where the right brothers are from the right Perdison Air

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Speaker 2: Force Base. There was a whole process, but ultimately one

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Speaker 2: a contract to build and develop and demonstrate this technology,

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Speaker 2: and that's when I founded the company in twenty sixteen.

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Speaker 1: So sharkskin looked pretty smooth. I've not touched a shark,

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Speaker 1: but I'm assuming it's very small the changes that you

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Speaker 1: are trying to replicate.

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Speaker 2: You're right, So they do look smooth, and sharks are

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Speaker 2: very efficient swimmers, and you would usually think that a

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Speaker 2: smooth surface is the best way to move through air

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Speaker 2: or water. What they're covered in, though, is if you

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Speaker 2: do touch them, they feel more like sampaper because they're

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Speaker 2: these microscopic ridges on the skin of the shark.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: Those ridges are known as riblets, so they know sharks

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Speaker 2: have developed them of millions of years with the beneficiaries

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Speaker 2: of that great R and D. But the first work

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Speaker 2: sort of humans looking at this has happened a while

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Speaker 2: Agore originally done by NASA about replicating these microscopic patterns.

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Speaker 1: So you're just you're kind of piggybacking off NASA's on

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Speaker 1: science or US governments on science work, but actually showing

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Speaker 1: them how to build it and apply it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. So so NASA did that original work. So they

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Speaker 2: made them on the sort of a millimeter scale that

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Speaker 2: knew that you need to them down to the micrometer scale,

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Speaker 2: so fractions of the width of a human hair is

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Speaker 2: what we're talking about to get it to work in aviation.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, definitely the beneficiaries of not just NASSA, but

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Speaker 2: a whole lot of work has been done the intervening

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Speaker 2: years throughout academia and different research institutions.

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Speaker 1: And so you propose this idea of making this stuff

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Speaker 1: although you didn't have any equipment, you had never done

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Speaker 1: it before.

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Speaker 2: No, I was Henry from Sydney, and I am very

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Speaker 2: lucky that the US government but also the entire advisory

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Speaker 2: committee there took a punt on myself and also the

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Speaker 2: team that I pulled together. So yeah, I definitely am

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Speaker 2: lucky to work with very smart people on this too.

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Speaker 1: And so now six seven years on, you are making stuff, yes,

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Speaker 1: and we've got a tour of your facility and there

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Speaker 1: is light printing happening. But just walk us through you

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Speaker 1: briefly the steps involved in making this stuff, and then

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Speaker 1: what happens once you do make these films? Right, they're

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Speaker 1: basically plastic sheets.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so we're essentially it's a pre fabricated film that

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Speaker 2: you stick on to the outside of a plane, very

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Speaker 2: similar to other films that are already applied to planes

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Speaker 2: that are usually done for advertising or graphical purposes. So

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Speaker 2: the way that we may factor and that kind of

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Speaker 2: is our core IP and differentiator, is this process we

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Speaker 2: call direct contactless microfabrication or DCM. That's basically this process

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Speaker 2: where we grow the structures, these microscopic patterns. So again,

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Speaker 2: these ridges space about half the width of human hair.

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Speaker 2: We grow them with lights, so we get a material

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Speaker 2: that cures when it's hit by a ultraviolet light. We

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Speaker 2: lay down a layer of this material. It will remain

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Speaker 2: liquid or uncured until it's exposed, and then we have

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Speaker 2: an optical system that projects that sharkskin patent into the

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Speaker 2: surface and grows the structures from the bottom up. The

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Speaker 2: reason why I'm being particular on that point is what's

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Speaker 2: distinct from typical three D printing is three D printing

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Speaker 2: is usually really two D printing done over and over again.

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Speaker 2: You print a layer in two D and then you

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Speaker 2: do it so on and so forth. We actually can

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Speaker 2: print entire three D structures only at the microscale in

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Speaker 2: a single exposure step through this process in this effect.

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Speaker 1: So explain drag and how exactly this thing reduces drag.

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Speaker 2: So drag is the force that a body moving through

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Speaker 2: a fluid experiences. So a shark has to expend energy

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Speaker 2: to push through the water, or a plane has to

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Speaker 2: burn fuel to push through the air. If you can

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Speaker 2: reduce that drag, you can reduce amount of energy that

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Speaker 2: you have to burn. The way that these structures work,

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Speaker 2: it's counterintuitive. Usually a smoother surface is better when it

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Speaker 2: comes to reducing drag. But what sharks have worked out

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Speaker 2: is if you have these specific ridge designs, you can

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Speaker 2: interact with a phenomenon that's known as hepinvortices. So if

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Speaker 2: you zoom down to that microscopic scale in what's called

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Speaker 2: turbulent flow, so when the flow is all messy, which

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Speaker 2: is most of the flow that anything experiences, especially planes.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I think one visual is an incense stick.

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Speaker 1: If you burn it in a closed room, you get

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Speaker 1: this nice stream. If you move your hand around it

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Speaker 1: and it just becomes chaotic, and that's kind of turbulance.

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Speaker 2: Right, exactly right. So when it's all nice, clean streams

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Speaker 2: of smoke, you can see, that's lamina flow, where everything's

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Speaker 2: ordered and predictable. And then eventually, if you wait long enough,

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Speaker 2: the top of that will get all messy and swell around,

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Speaker 2: and that's turbulent flow. Now, on a plane or on

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Speaker 2: a shark, most of the flow is turbulent flow. And

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Speaker 2: if you zoom in small enough, there are these very

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Speaker 2: predictable structures called hairpin vortices. They're kind of in the

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Speaker 2: shape of a hairpin, funnily enough, through about the diameter

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Speaker 2: of a human hair. They're very predictable according to your

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Speaker 2: flow conditions, and they provide additional scrubbing and energy on

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Speaker 2: that surface, which essentially means more friction drag, more drag

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Speaker 2: that's applying to the surface that's moving through the fluid.

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Speaker 2: But if you can make these ridges just narrower than

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Speaker 2: the diameter of that vortex, then you can actually exclude

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Speaker 2: it from the surface and it doesn't fit in between

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Speaker 2: the ridges. And only interacts with these very sharp peaks.

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Speaker 2: The result of that is that you get a net

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Speaker 2: drag reduction effect because they're not actually interacting with the

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Speaker 2: surface completely. Again, sharks get the credit for coming up

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Speaker 2: with this idea, and it works incredibly well. So with

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Speaker 2: the material that we have made to date and sort

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Speaker 2: of our our current generation of product, we reliably get

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Speaker 2: an eight percent friction drag saving. That'll have a different

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Speaker 2: impact depending on the application, but on a typical tube

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Speaker 2: and we're getting aircraft, you've got half of your drag

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Speaker 2: being friction drag, so that eight percent becomes a four

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Speaker 2: percent net efficiency gain, So four percent less fuel burned,

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Speaker 2: four percent less carbon emissions.

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Speaker 1: Well, you give sharks credit. It's not like they were

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Speaker 1: thinking about it. It's just that they kept swimming in

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Speaker 1: the water and the more efficient ones one out and

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Speaker 1: then they got evolved into the beast that they are

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Speaker 1: beautiful as they are.

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Speaker 2: I can't claim to know the inner workings of shouts,

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Speaker 2: but they definitely are the ones that came up with it.

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Speaker 2: So whether they thought of it or.

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Speaker 1: Not, so what kind of impact do you think you

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Speaker 1: can have?

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Speaker 2: So today global aviation spends about turning to billion dollars

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Speaker 2: on fuel, producing about a billion tons of carbon, and

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Speaker 2: we could be with our current products saving up to

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Speaker 2: about four percent of that. On individual, say wide body aircraft,

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Speaker 2: we can be saving on the order of a million

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Speaker 2: dollars of fuel a year and three thousand tons of carbon.

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Speaker 2: And that's where we're currently at. And the other thing,

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Speaker 2: which which I referred to when I showed you the

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Speaker 2: lab and the tour, we really want to leverage the

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Speaker 2: fact that we can make new designs and improve those savings.

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Speaker 2: And we also work with the University of Melbourne. They'll

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Speaker 2: be building us a dedicated testing facility so we can

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Speaker 2: start rapidly iterating the different designs that we can make,

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Speaker 2: test them in the testing facility and improve that performance.

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Speaker 2: And we're nowhere near any sort of physical limit as

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Speaker 2: to what kind of efficiency gains we can be getting

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Speaker 2: when it comes to functional surfaces and how we can

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Speaker 2: improve the efficiency of aviation. So we want to push

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Speaker 2: that up closer to ten percent.

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Speaker 1: And what will be required to pass what would be

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Speaker 1: a pretty strict regulatory environment.

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Speaker 2: Yes, so you're right. Aviation is a highly regulated industry,

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Speaker 2: which is great. That's why we're safely flying on planes

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Speaker 2: and not worrying about them falling out of the sky,

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Speaker 2: and so we need to make sure that we fit

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Speaker 2: within that regulatory process. We have a great model for

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Speaker 2: how we can get onto aircraft, which is the graphical

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Speaker 2: films are referred to earlier, so they're already films that

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Speaker 2: are up to spec and applied to aircraft and flown

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Speaker 2: on aircraft regularly. So we're installing in the same procedures,

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Speaker 2: the same way, the same kinds of materials and passing

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Speaker 2: those material specs and that's the method that we're using

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Speaker 2: for we've got some upcoming flight trials, so we just

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Speaker 2: had a project announced with some funding from the Australian

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Speaker 2: through government, which is in partnership with Jetstar, which is

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Speaker 2: our biggest low cost carrier here in Australia, and so

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Speaker 2: we're taking that approach by using their existing framework of

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Speaker 2: how they get films on and that's great for the

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Speaker 2: purpose of flight trials and initial applications. When it comes

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Speaker 2: to launching this and putting this on many aircraft and

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Speaker 2: really having the impact that we want to have, we'll

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Speaker 2: be getting what's called a supplemental type certificate, which is

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Speaker 2: an approved change to an existing aircraft.

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Speaker 1: And these films which they put on for advertising, etc.

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Speaker 1: They take them off after a year or two. If

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Speaker 1: that you're going to have to keep them on planes

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Speaker 1: which last ten to twenty.

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Speaker 2: Years, Yes and no, you're correct. The graphical films are

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Speaker 2: typically removed within say a year or so, but there

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Speaker 2: are products out there that have flown for over eight years,

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Speaker 2: so there is precedent in terms of having them on

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Speaker 2: for longer. That's about the period of time that we

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Speaker 2: want our product to last. And the reason we're not

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Speaker 2: looking at longer than that is there are very well

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Speaker 2: defined maintenance checks that are done on aircraft for the

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Speaker 2: same reason and of keeping them safe. And you'll have

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Speaker 2: a heavy maintenance check, which depending on the aircraft and

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Speaker 2: how it's operated, could be every five to ten years,

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Speaker 2: and that's where all of the paint will be stripped

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Speaker 2: off the plane and will be checked down to the

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Speaker 2: core structure of the plane and then it will be repainted.

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Speaker 2: So lasting any longer than that is not really relevant

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Speaker 2: for our product, but you're right, we definitely want to

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Speaker 2: make sure that we're lasting that period of time. The

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Speaker 2: business case is still very much attractive even if it

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Speaker 2: was only a two year product. But we're looking to

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Speaker 2: make that last as long as possible again to have

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Speaker 2: that impact.

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Speaker 1: And on the dour we saw the lab and the

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Speaker 1: testing facility. It's relatively small for what you need to

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Speaker 1: do now, but where are you going to manufacture at

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Speaker 1: scale if you're going to cover entire planes with this material?

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Speaker 2: Yes, so the facility that you saw here today that

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Speaker 2: core technology. We talked about the way that we manufacture

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Speaker 2: and essentially what we develop here are the materials and

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Speaker 2: kind of the key manufacturing inputs to manufacture large amounts

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Speaker 2: of product at scale. Those inputs go to a continuous

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Speaker 2: role for roll manufacturing process and we currently work with

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Speaker 2: different third party manufacturers where we go and have access

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Speaker 2: to their existing production lines. We're about to know the

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Speaker 2: production run on the order of say a commu's worth material,

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Speaker 2: which is plenty for us to do a couple of

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Speaker 2: flight trials. And then when it comes to scaling up

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Speaker 2: that manufacturing first, our first manufacturing scale facility will be

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Speaker 2: here in Australia. But the volumes that we're talking about

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Speaker 2: we expect to be building these in locations in the

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Speaker 2: geography is where close to the markets that we need

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Speaker 2: to ultimately serve. So so we'll have something in Europe,

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Speaker 2: something in the US. Is how we'll do this in

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Speaker 2: the long term.

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Speaker 1: The applications, though, don't have to be just restricted to aplanes.

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Speaker 1: Drag is a problem for all sorts of things, anything

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Speaker 1: that moves really, whether it's in water or on the road.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's exactly right. Obviously, we're focused on aviation at

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Speaker 2: the moment, and there is a reason for that. Aviation

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Speaker 2: is very hard to abate industry. There's a trillion dollars

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Speaker 2: of planes flying today which aren't going to be thrown

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Speaker 2: away anytime soon, earning about two hundred million dollars worth

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Speaker 2: of fuel and producing about a billion tons of carbon.

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Speaker 2: So we're getting very clear signals that this is a

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Speaker 2: problem that the market wants us to solve first. But

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Speaker 2: we're also looking at other applications further down the line,

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Speaker 2: so we can be applying this to ships, say cargo ships,

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Speaker 2: to improve their efficiency as well. I had a couple

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Speaker 2: of other things, yes, because I listened to your episode

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Speaker 2: about flying cars. I listened to that and I was like, oh,

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Speaker 2: that's probably why you want to talk to us, because

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Speaker 2: you're skeptical about the transition of aviation to electric Exactly

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Speaker 2: and I think that's a big part of what we're

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Speaker 2: trying to solve, something which I think is why we're

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Speaker 2: getting a lot of traction in aviation. The entire industry

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Speaker 2: is committed to net zero by twenty fifty, and there

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Speaker 2: is not a clear easy shot to get there.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean that's true for many industries, but particularly

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Speaker 1: true for our aviation.

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Speaker 2: Yes, and even your colleague you were talking to said

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Speaker 2: he's bullish on electric aviation and hydroen aviation and best

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Speaker 2: case scenario that solves short and medium whole flight, there

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Speaker 2: is no way that it's going to be doing wide

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Speaker 2: body along whul flights. But the other thing, and the

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Speaker 2: reason why I made reference to the fact there's about

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Speaker 2: a trillion dollars worth of planes burning fuel and operation today,

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Speaker 2: not to mention all the planes that are being manufactured

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Speaker 2: still to be burning fuel, is we need to think

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Speaker 2: about something which has an impact in the next five

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Speaker 2: to ten years. We can't just sort of hold on

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Speaker 2: for a new breakthrough in battery or hydrogen technology. I

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Speaker 2: think it's very necessary and very excited for those things

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Speaker 2: to come online, but it's an even longer regulatory road

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Speaker 2: to get new platforms.

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Speaker 1: Off for sure. And even if you do get electric

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Speaker 1: and hydrogen planes working, any amount of efficiency gain that

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Speaker 1: you get for them, the easier their job becomes because

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Speaker 1: then you have to put fewer batteries on, you have

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Speaker 1: to put less fuel on. So efficiency is this weapon

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Speaker 1: that few people think off or use as effectively as

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Speaker 1: you can use to get to net zero.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and so I think where we're coming at this

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Speaker 2: is in the near term, we want to have an

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Speaker 2: impact on the existing global fleet. You know, every airline's

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Speaker 2: committed to say one half percent efficiency gains the plane,

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Speaker 2: just buy new planes. We can be a part of

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Speaker 2: that solution to not only help them achieve that, but

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Speaker 2: save money in the process. You're not paying a grain premium,

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Speaker 2: you're saving fuel in the process. But as electric and hydrogen,

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Speaker 2: you know, alternative powered aviation comes online, they'll be doing

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Speaker 2: really short hops initially, and if maybe an extra five

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Speaker 2: percent efficiency unlocks La to San Francisco, there's a huge

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Speaker 2: impact there and we really want to be able to

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Speaker 2: help with that transition as we have these alternative aviation

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Speaker 2: platforms coming online.

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Speaker 1: Well, thanks for the tour. Nice to see sharks in

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Speaker 1: a better light than a lot of people.

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Speaker 2: Think Sharks are great.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely. Since recording this interview, Microtower has begun flight trials

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Speaker 1: off its technology and plans for it to be rolled

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Speaker 1: out more broadly on commercial jets in twenty twenty five

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Speaker 1: after the break. To meet net zero, we need enough

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Speaker 1: batteries for a billion electric cars and lithium is a

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Speaker 1: crucial part of that equation. Is there a cleaner way

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Speaker 1: to source it? While I was in Australia, I also

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Speaker 1: met up with Stephen vas Ludis, CEO of Novalith, a

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Speaker 1: company that wants to reduce the carbon emissions that come

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Speaker 1: from extracting lithium. Like Microtao, Novallyith is another company that

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Speaker 1: has raised money with the support of the Clean Energy

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Speaker 1: Finance Corporation, first two point five million Australian dollars in

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty one, and then it completed a twenty three

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Speaker 1: million dollar rais. I met Stephen at the Novlith office

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Speaker 1: in Sydney. Now we're going to talk about lithium mining

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Speaker 1: and what it is that Novalith, your company is doing

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Speaker 1: to make it more efficient and even maybe carbon negative,

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Speaker 1: which is a bold claim. But before that, how do

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Speaker 1: you come to do this?

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Speaker 3: So in terms of I guess the origin story. Sam

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Speaker 3: chemical engineer by background. I worked in a number of

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Speaker 3: industries prior to novelith oil and gas, conventional chemical engineering,

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Speaker 3: you know, try to make things cleaner and greener, and

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Speaker 3: that's really been the big push for me over the

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Speaker 3: last decade or so, and that's what led to the

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Speaker 3: genesis of Novel Earth. Looking at the way the world

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Speaker 3: is moving, right, we desperately need to electrify. The only

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Speaker 3: way for us to do that is by using lithium

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Speaker 3: at large scale, and the conventional means of lithium production

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Speaker 3: are not particularly quick, clean, or cost effective.

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Speaker 1: Well, most people won't know this because most people haven't

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Speaker 1: thought about lithium mining. They've thought about lithium's used in

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Speaker 1: batteries because everybody has a smartphone and they have lithium

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Speaker 1: in batteries.

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Speaker 3: And now EV's is a big push as well.

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Speaker 1: Right exactly. But let's go from the basics of how

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Speaker 1: lithium is mined and processed.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so in terms of lithium, you have kind of

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Speaker 3: two main sources of lithium. So you have your contentle brands,

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Speaker 3: So the lithium triangle in South America, so that's Argentina, Chiliblivia.

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Speaker 1: And that's basically liquids that are found under the Earth,

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Speaker 1: which are very highly concentrated in different types of salts,

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Speaker 1: including lithium in them. Correct, And so you just pull

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Speaker 1: out a lot of liquid, you put it in these

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Speaker 1: salt pans, let them dry, take what's left, which is

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Speaker 1: usually some type of powder, and then make chemicals out

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Speaker 1: of them.

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Speaker 3: Exactly. That's very much your Brian's right. They, you know,

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Speaker 3: take their lithium chloride powder or slurry ship off to

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Speaker 3: China to refine into a lithium chemical. The other way

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Speaker 3: of getting lithium is from rock, and so the vast

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Speaker 3: majority of kind of rock based lithium, so about sixty

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Speaker 3: percent of the world supply comes from Western Australia in

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Speaker 3: the form of spodymene, and that's a hard rock. There's

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Speaker 3: other sources of lithium so soft rocks, such in North

438
00:21:29,160 --> 00:21:32,000
Speaker 3: America and Europe, but the vast majority at the moment

439
00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:33,760
Speaker 3: is from that hard rock based resource.

440
00:21:33,800 --> 00:21:36,760
Speaker 1: And we've got some SPoD being here that you showed me.

441
00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:39,080
Speaker 1: I mean, I've not been to a lithium mind, but

442
00:21:40,119 --> 00:21:43,600
Speaker 1: the pieces of rock you're showing me are all different colored,

443
00:21:43,680 --> 00:21:46,439
Speaker 1: like there's green and there's white, and there's purple and

444
00:21:46,520 --> 00:21:51,040
Speaker 1: even yellow. I thought mine rocks would look lamer.

445
00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:54,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, look, I think we're actually in a pretty cool

446
00:21:54,680 --> 00:21:57,720
Speaker 3: game with the lithium rocks. Lithium rocks generally all look

447
00:21:57,760 --> 00:21:59,960
Speaker 3: quite pretty, and there's one hundred and one different types

448
00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:02,840
Speaker 3: of kind of lithium bearing ores. They all look pretty cool,

449
00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:04,840
Speaker 3: I mean, except maybe the clays. The clays are I

450
00:22:04,880 --> 00:22:07,280
Speaker 3: guess a bit boring, right, They just look like a clay.

451
00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:12,880
Speaker 1: And so you take either rock or brine, and then

452
00:22:12,880 --> 00:22:13,880
Speaker 1: what do you have to do next?

453
00:22:13,920 --> 00:22:16,880
Speaker 3: So the conventional process is, you know, once you've kind

454
00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:19,440
Speaker 3: of mind it, you've then concentrated to increase the amount

455
00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:21,040
Speaker 3: of lithium from you know, so you're one or two

456
00:22:21,080 --> 00:22:23,480
Speaker 3: percent to say five or six percent. You then ship

457
00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:26,320
Speaker 3: that spodyman concentrate to China, and about you know, eighty

458
00:22:26,320 --> 00:22:28,399
Speaker 3: to ninety ten of the world's lithium is currently refined

459
00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:30,480
Speaker 3: in China or roads lead to China in the lithium

460
00:22:30,520 --> 00:22:32,480
Speaker 3: game at the moment, and I think the world is

461
00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:34,320
Speaker 3: trying to change that, but it'll take a little while

462
00:22:34,520 --> 00:22:36,439
Speaker 3: for that to pick up. But yeah, so once it

463
00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:39,240
Speaker 3: gets to the the lithium refinery, depending on the source

464
00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:42,440
Speaker 3: of lithium. There's a quite a complicated and long winded

465
00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:45,760
Speaker 3: chemical process, but in a nutshell, you heat it up,

466
00:22:45,840 --> 00:22:47,840
Speaker 3: you hit it with a very very strong acid. So

467
00:22:47,920 --> 00:22:51,239
Speaker 3: sulfuric acid, sulfuric acid us A SULFORG generally comes off

468
00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:53,560
Speaker 3: the back of oil and gas, right desulfurization.

469
00:22:53,800 --> 00:22:56,399
Speaker 1: Just so people know, sulfuric acid is one of the

470
00:22:56,440 --> 00:22:57,760
Speaker 1: strongest acids there is.

471
00:22:57,920 --> 00:23:00,200
Speaker 3: Definitely, Yes, it's not something you really want to leave

472
00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:01,879
Speaker 3: out in the kitchen table. And if you're working with it,

473
00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:04,320
Speaker 3: I mean there's a lot of safety considerations that you

474
00:23:04,359 --> 00:23:06,480
Speaker 3: need to take into account. And again that's one of

475
00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:08,320
Speaker 3: the things that we're trying to move away from, is

476
00:23:08,359 --> 00:23:10,560
Speaker 3: in terms of using quite a harmful chemical, not only

477
00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:13,200
Speaker 3: for personnel but also from the environment.

478
00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:17,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, even though lithium mindes are located in places with

479
00:23:17,359 --> 00:23:22,040
Speaker 1: relatively high concentrations, lithium only makes up a small percentage

480
00:23:22,119 --> 00:23:25,160
Speaker 1: of all the material that is dug up. Steve told

481
00:23:25,160 --> 00:23:28,440
Speaker 1: me it's only a few kilograms for every thousand kilograms

482
00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:32,359
Speaker 1: of mind material. So to separate the lithium you want

483
00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:36,760
Speaker 1: from the materials you don't want, miners use sulfuric acid.

484
00:23:37,720 --> 00:23:41,280
Speaker 1: It does the job because it's highly chemically reactive. But

485
00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:44,800
Speaker 1: that also creates a whole bunch of other problems. First,

486
00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:48,320
Speaker 1: it's not selective, which means other metals contained in the

487
00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:53,120
Speaker 1: mind material are also extracted alongside lithium, creating a complex

488
00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:57,840
Speaker 1: chemical soup that you have to further purify. Second, it's toxic,

489
00:23:58,160 --> 00:24:00,880
Speaker 1: so managing it and getting rid of a way safely

490
00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:04,440
Speaker 1: is expensive. Nobile It's idea is to do a way

491
00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:09,080
Speaker 1: with sulfuric acid altogether and use carbonic acid instead, which

492
00:24:09,119 --> 00:24:11,960
Speaker 1: can be made by mixing CO two with water.

493
00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:15,440
Speaker 3: So when you mix CO two in water, you form

494
00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:17,160
Speaker 3: carbonic acid. It's the same thing you're using a soda

495
00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:19,199
Speaker 3: stream at home. Yeah, right, but you don't think of

496
00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:20,919
Speaker 3: it as an acid, right. You can drink it.

497
00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:24,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, but if you drink too much soda, your teeth

498
00:24:24,080 --> 00:24:26,320
Speaker 1: go bad, and that's because it's acidic.

499
00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:29,240
Speaker 3: Correct, correct, So don't drink too much soda as a

500
00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:31,920
Speaker 3: general kind of like health this claim hehet. But yeah,

501
00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:33,919
Speaker 3: you don't worry about the kids playing with it. You

502
00:24:33,960 --> 00:24:35,720
Speaker 3: make it, and it's great to have with a slice

503
00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:38,760
Speaker 3: of lemon. But under the right conditions, we can actually

504
00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:41,480
Speaker 3: use that SEO too. Water mixture very very effectively and

505
00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:45,320
Speaker 3: efficiently to extract lithium from the lithium bearing oles directly

506
00:24:45,359 --> 00:24:47,520
Speaker 3: as a lithium carbonate. And that's kind of like the

507
00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:49,479
Speaker 3: little Noblis black box and our pattern.

508
00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:56,000
Speaker 1: The lithium used inside lithium ion batteries isn't pure lithium. Instead,

509
00:24:56,200 --> 00:25:00,479
Speaker 1: it exists as a salt, either lithium hydroxide or what

510
00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:05,400
Speaker 1: nouvlid makes lithium carbonate. In using carbonic acid to turn

511
00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:09,080
Speaker 1: mind lithium to lithium carbonate, the startup can skip over

512
00:25:09,119 --> 00:25:13,440
Speaker 1: the step where sulfuric acid is normally used. Because carbonic

513
00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:17,360
Speaker 1: acid is a weak acid. It also produces less toxic waste,

514
00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:20,879
Speaker 1: and what waste it does produce is much easier and

515
00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:25,040
Speaker 1: thus cheaper to handle safely. However, to make a weak

516
00:25:25,119 --> 00:25:29,240
Speaker 1: acid work as effectively as a strong acid, nouvlith had

517
00:25:29,240 --> 00:25:34,199
Speaker 1: to design a different process of extraction. So you have

518
00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:37,000
Speaker 1: the black box. Yes that's the IP, but it's patented

519
00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:39,640
Speaker 1: so you can talk about what's public right, what is it? Yees?

520
00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:41,000
Speaker 3: So I mean I feel free to look up for

521
00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:43,760
Speaker 3: those of you who do enjoy digging in patterns. If

522
00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:46,159
Speaker 3: you imagine putting a little bit of spodgyman in a

523
00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:48,159
Speaker 3: glass subside one on the table. Not very much is

524
00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:50,080
Speaker 3: going to happen, right, you will form lithium carbonate. But

525
00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:52,280
Speaker 3: we'll be talking about this inside three is time. And

526
00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:54,840
Speaker 3: so with that process, the way we've managed to do

527
00:25:54,880 --> 00:25:56,239
Speaker 3: this and ast you found that it works really really

528
00:25:56,280 --> 00:25:59,400
Speaker 3: well is by changing temperatures and pressures, and so under

529
00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:02,080
Speaker 3: a very strict set of conditions, we find that we

530
00:26:02,119 --> 00:26:05,399
Speaker 3: can very effectively extract that lithium. And the other thing

531
00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:07,280
Speaker 3: we've looked into is the type of reactors that we're

532
00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:09,720
Speaker 3: looking to use. So going to you know, chemical engineering again,

533
00:26:09,760 --> 00:26:11,879
Speaker 3: there's one hundred and one way to do something. We

534
00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:14,960
Speaker 3: found for our process that a fluidized bed reactor works

535
00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:17,760
Speaker 3: really really well. We can get great extraction efficiencies and

536
00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:20,240
Speaker 3: control that mass transfer, which is what we're.

537
00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:22,879
Speaker 1: As bad reactor, which is a chemical engineer. I know

538
00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:25,080
Speaker 1: what it is, but now that I think about it,

539
00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:27,399
Speaker 1: it's a really interesting name because it sounds like a

540
00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:28,280
Speaker 1: massage table.

541
00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:33,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, yes, well it's to be fun like you can

542
00:26:33,320 --> 00:26:35,040
Speaker 3: kind of imagine it, right, So if you get a

543
00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:37,439
Speaker 3: straw and you kind of blow bubbles at the bottom

544
00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:39,280
Speaker 3: of a glass fall with a bit of sand, right,

545
00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:42,760
Speaker 3: you're effectively making a fluidized bed reactor, and so you

546
00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:44,640
Speaker 3: can see the bubbles kind of passing through the sand

547
00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:46,680
Speaker 3: and it's all kind of jiggling about and doing its thing.

548
00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:48,359
Speaker 3: And that's really what we're doing, just a large.

549
00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:51,880
Speaker 1: Scale massaging the spodamine with lots of acid.

550
00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:54,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, to get our lithium carbonate.

551
00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:58,080
Speaker 1: But you also made this bold claim saying well we

552
00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:02,320
Speaker 1: can make carbon negative lithium, which you're going to have

553
00:27:02,359 --> 00:27:06,360
Speaker 1: to explain. So a, what is the carbon cost of lithium?

554
00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:09,640
Speaker 1: Why is there a carbon cost to lithium, and how

555
00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:10,960
Speaker 1: is it that you're going to negated?

556
00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:13,040
Speaker 3: Yes, so in terms of that, well, we're currently doing

557
00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:15,040
Speaker 3: able to work on confirming whether we can truly be

558
00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:17,840
Speaker 3: carbon negative. Well, that's definitely our goal. Given that way

559
00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:20,080
Speaker 3: use COO too. You know, there's a really good chance

560
00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:22,680
Speaker 3: of us us achieving that goal. And so in terms

561
00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:25,320
Speaker 3: of I guess the relative carbon intensity, right, if you

562
00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:27,520
Speaker 3: look at the conventional process, you find that the vast

563
00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:29,320
Speaker 3: majority of CO two is emitted in that middle piece,

564
00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:30,480
Speaker 3: so the chemical refining piece.

565
00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:34,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's interesting. People would think mining it, which requires

566
00:27:34,119 --> 00:27:37,719
Speaker 1: a lot of energy and moving it then putting it

567
00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:41,680
Speaker 1: either on trains or ships, would be the biggest carbon cost.

568
00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:45,119
Speaker 1: But actually it's the chemicals. It's the treatment of the

569
00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:48,359
Speaker 1: ore that is really the carbon intensive.

570
00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:50,119
Speaker 3: Definitely, and it's the productions of the chemicals. So in

571
00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:52,760
Speaker 3: the production of the softior acid you need for your process,

572
00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:54,880
Speaker 3: you're producing a ton of CO two. And so when

573
00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:57,800
Speaker 3: we compare novelist technology to the conventional, you know, and

574
00:27:57,840 --> 00:28:00,440
Speaker 3: the conventional sitting between say fifteen and two tons of

575
00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:02,560
Speaker 3: CO two putun of lithium chemical and it is jurisdic

576
00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:05,320
Speaker 3: and specific. We were less than half of that, and

577
00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:07,000
Speaker 3: it's already you know, well on the way to being

578
00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:08,479
Speaker 3: carbon neutral, carbon negative.

579
00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:13,639
Speaker 1: Yeah, still ways of the carbon negative. Part of Novolid's

580
00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:17,400
Speaker 1: claim is still just theory. Carbonic acid can be made

581
00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:20,400
Speaker 1: by mixing water with CO two that has been captured

582
00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:24,280
Speaker 1: from the atmosphere. The acid can be combined with waste

583
00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:27,760
Speaker 1: metals from the lithium or to form carbonates that can

584
00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:31,320
Speaker 1: be stored underground, effectively locking the CO two out of

585
00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:35,520
Speaker 1: the atmosphere forever. This is something that is already being

586
00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:39,000
Speaker 1: done by carbon removal companies climb Works and carb Fix

587
00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:43,640
Speaker 1: in Iceland at a small scale. So the theory does work,

588
00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:47,160
Speaker 1: but to make carbon negative lithium novolith will have to

589
00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:50,640
Speaker 1: store away more carbon dioxide than produced by the rest

590
00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:53,640
Speaker 1: of the process. And I'll remain skeptical till I see

591
00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:54,320
Speaker 1: the results.

592
00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:57,160
Speaker 3: So for SPoD, you mean the way we can reduce

593
00:28:57,160 --> 00:29:00,760
Speaker 3: the carbon intensities by using grhinoisols the power grenoil electricity.

594
00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:03,080
Speaker 3: At the moment, everything is coal diesel. I mean it's

595
00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:05,400
Speaker 3: really dirty in terms of the power. Looking forward, we

596
00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:08,600
Speaker 3: can significantly decrease the carbon intensity by using greener sources

597
00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:10,880
Speaker 3: of energy. And then further that if we do have

598
00:29:11,040 --> 00:29:13,920
Speaker 3: these carbonatable materials right, so effectively the spent or the

599
00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:16,640
Speaker 3: stuff that goes to waste, if we can add value

600
00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:20,280
Speaker 3: to that by carbonating that using either COO two emitted

601
00:29:20,320 --> 00:29:23,040
Speaker 3: by the power plant that the mine is they're currently

602
00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:25,520
Speaker 3: using to powers operations. There's a lot of conventional industry

603
00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:27,320
Speaker 3: that needs a place to put its coe too, and

604
00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:29,480
Speaker 3: we can help them store that zo too, infects that

605
00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:32,680
Speaker 3: too whilst producing a very very important and high value

606
00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:33,719
Speaker 3: lithium chemical product.

607
00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:37,480
Speaker 1: And you should acknowledge that while lithium has a carbon

608
00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:41,560
Speaker 1: cost and it's substantial, the amount of carbonate avoids through

609
00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:46,520
Speaker 1: the use of batteries and electric vehicles is much much greater.

610
00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:49,920
Speaker 1: But if you're going to scale green technologies, we ought

611
00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:53,080
Speaker 1: to be much more careful about the carbon cost of

612
00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:54,320
Speaker 1: building those technologies.

613
00:29:54,400 --> 00:29:56,720
Speaker 3: I completely agree, and that's what we need lithium, right

614
00:29:56,840 --> 00:29:59,959
Speaker 3: if you're looking through relative carbon reduction or the gatement

615
00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:02,560
Speaker 3: if you like, of transitioning towards an extory future. I

616
00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:04,960
Speaker 3: mean it is gigatons, several gig times. It is tremendous,

617
00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:06,040
Speaker 3: and we need to get there.

618
00:30:06,280 --> 00:30:06,440
Speaker 1: You know.

619
00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:10,080
Speaker 3: Our thesis is we need lithium, We need now, well yesterday,

620
00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:12,160
Speaker 3: to be honest, and we need to cost effectively, but

621
00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:14,360
Speaker 3: it has to be environmently friendly. There's no point in

622
00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:17,720
Speaker 3: using technologies which really kind of use the bones of

623
00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:20,280
Speaker 3: old dinosaurs right to kind of prop up the screen future.

624
00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:22,000
Speaker 3: And so that's what we have to try and make

625
00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:24,959
Speaker 3: it sustainable as possible, so you know, really be part

626
00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:26,719
Speaker 3: of that same ethos that we're kind of pushing towards.

627
00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:29,520
Speaker 1: And so we've got a tour of your facility and

628
00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:33,200
Speaker 1: you've done this at a lab scale that you're making

629
00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:36,280
Speaker 1: kilograms of this on a day to day basis, but

630
00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:38,960
Speaker 1: of course we're talking tons here, and so how many

631
00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:41,840
Speaker 1: years before we have thousands of tons in production using

632
00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:42,520
Speaker 1: this method.

633
00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:44,479
Speaker 3: So we're sitting at kind of like keylot scale, right.

634
00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:46,800
Speaker 3: We've done our lab and bench stop testing and that's

635
00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:49,200
Speaker 3: taken us two years to get to the stage where

636
00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:51,360
Speaker 3: we're not confident in scaling up to our pilot plants.

637
00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:54,680
Speaker 3: And so this year we while we're currently building our

638
00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:57,640
Speaker 3: pilot plant facility in Alexandria and City in Australia, and

639
00:30:57,720 --> 00:31:01,080
Speaker 3: we'll have multiple pilot plants on side seeing tens of

640
00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:03,480
Speaker 3: kilos of lithium chemical per day. So if things go

641
00:31:03,560 --> 00:31:05,800
Speaker 3: the way that we were planning them to, we will

642
00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:09,040
Speaker 3: have our first facility, our commercial administration plant operating by

643
00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:11,280
Speaker 3: twenty twenty six, twenty twenty seven, and then scale of

644
00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:14,000
Speaker 3: that'll be between you know, one and five thousand tons pernum.

645
00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:15,760
Speaker 1: And where will it be based?

646
00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:18,240
Speaker 3: Very good question. So if you're looking at where lithium

647
00:31:18,320 --> 00:31:21,080
Speaker 3: is primarily based, a Western Australia has a tremendous amount

648
00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:24,080
Speaker 3: of spodyman but the US, right, the US is pushing

649
00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:26,520
Speaker 3: very very hard into on shoring it's critical mineral supply

650
00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:29,600
Speaker 3: and really supporting this battery production in our electric future.

651
00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:32,600
Speaker 3: And at this stage it's looking like either US. There's

652
00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:35,240
Speaker 3: a lot of local quality lithum resources and tons of

653
00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:37,120
Speaker 3: lithium in general, which the need to find a better

654
00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:39,200
Speaker 3: way to process a Western Australia, which is where the

655
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Speaker 3: vast majority of kind of the hard rockithum comes from

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Speaker 3: at the moment. There's a lot of support from the

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Speaker 3: government in the US, which is very attractive for not

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Speaker 3: only US but anybody looking to hasten that transition. And

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Speaker 3: so if we can get support from the US, and

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Speaker 3: given the credituality of lithium in general, think we will

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Speaker 3: be able to it makes a lot of sense for us.

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Speaker 1: Well, thank you and good luck scaling up.

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Speaker 3: No, thanks very much for having me. It was great.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Zero. If you liked this episode,

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00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:09,520
Speaker 1: please take a moment to rate or review the show

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Speaker 1: on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Share this episode with a

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Speaker 1: friend or with someone who is scared of sharks. Get

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Speaker 1: in touch at zero pod at Bloomberg dot Net. Zero's

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Speaker 1: producer is Oscar Boyd and senior producer is Christine Driskell.

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Speaker 1: Our theme music is composed by Wonderly Special thanks to

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Speaker 1: Kirra Bindrim and Luke Mills. I'm Akshatrati back next week.