Speaker 1: Mother Knows Death presents External Exams with Nicole and Jimmy.
Speaker 2: Hi, guys, today, I want to introduce Her name is
Speaker 2: Lindsay Cotton and she is a sexual assault nurse examiner
Speaker 2: and medical legal death investigator. Did I get that correct?
Speaker 1: You did?
Speaker 2: Okay? Awesome? So I have a bunch of questions to
Speaker 2: ask you, obviously, but maybe it would be better if
Speaker 2: you just started by telling us a little bit about
Speaker 2: what you do for a living.
Speaker 1: Okay, Well, first of all, I'm a registered nurse. I've
Speaker 1: got my VSN and I've been a nurse for about
Speaker 1: eleven years. I'm in Nurse practitioner school right now to
Speaker 1: further my education. My background primarily has been working in
Speaker 1: the emergency room, and during that time I became a
Speaker 1: Saint nurse, which is sexual assault nurse examiner, and what
Speaker 1: that means is I'm taking care of victims of sexual
Speaker 1: assault that present to the emergency room, and in that capacity,
Speaker 1: I'm considered a forensic nurse. But within the last year
Speaker 1: and a half I've broad into that and the county
Speaker 1: that I live in created a forensic nurse position and
Speaker 1: I had to get my MDI, which is medical legal
Speaker 1: death investigator. Certification as well. So I'm under the umbrella
Speaker 1: of the District Attorney's office, and I work for the county,
Speaker 1: and I work with all of our law enforcement agencies,
Speaker 1: and so I kind of wear two hats. So broadly speaking,
Speaker 1: the forendic nurse could mean a lot depending on where
Speaker 1: you live and work, but for me, it means I
Speaker 1: work both as a saying and an MDI.
Speaker 2: Okay, this is so exciting for me to hear about
Speaker 2: this because well, as of right now, I don't think
Speaker 2: Philadelphia has a position like that, and I think it's
Speaker 2: cool that they're deciding to bring in other health professionals
Speaker 2: besides just doctors. So that's cool. So one of the
Speaker 2: questions I had for you was what education you needed
Speaker 2: for this job? And obviously you're already You're a bsn
Speaker 2: correct you said. Okay, So basically, if anybody was a
Speaker 2: nurse right now and they wanted to do this, they could.
Speaker 2: They already have their degree. You have to just take
Speaker 2: an additional certification exam to be a saint that that's
Speaker 2: what you're saying.
Speaker 1: So it depends on the state. Every state is different,
Speaker 1: and in my state you have to take a forty
Speaker 1: hour course to become a saane and they divide it
Speaker 1: up between adult and adolescent and pediatric, so you could
Speaker 1: do both, or you could just do one because some
Speaker 1: people don't like peds or some people love peds and
Speaker 1: that's all they want to do. So I started out
Speaker 1: with that training and at the time, my hospital that
Speaker 1: I worked for paid for that, and from there you
Speaker 1: can become certified through your state and internationally for the
Speaker 1: NDI portion the death investigator. You don't have to be
Speaker 1: a nurse for that. They actually use a lot of
Speaker 1: it's cross training for law enforcement officers, so a lot
Speaker 1: of them will be cops and death investigators. And so
Speaker 1: that is also another forty hour course put on through
Speaker 1: our state. And then you're appointed by your district attorney
Speaker 1: to be the medical legal death investigator. You're also appointed
Speaker 1: by the medical examiner, so it's a little bit more
Speaker 1: formal process, and then at that point you can work
Speaker 1: and the state that I live in, every county is
Speaker 1: totally different. I'm one of just a handful of urns
Speaker 1: that do this job. So I think it makes sense
Speaker 1: that a nurse or a medical person would work this job.
Speaker 1: In terms of death investigation, there's so much complimentary knowledge
Speaker 1: that you have as a nurse and a death investigator
Speaker 1: that law enforcement just won't have. They'll look at it
Speaker 1: more from a criminal lens, whereas we're looking at it
Speaker 1: from a death lens or medical, like what caused this
Speaker 1: person to die? And so we just asked totally different questions.
Speaker 1: And I think that the trend should be that nurses
Speaker 1: get to do this job more and more than traditionally have.
Speaker 2: I agree with you. I used to feel the same
Speaker 2: way because we as a pathology pathologists assistant students rotated
Speaker 2: through the m's office, but they didn't actually employ pathologists
Speaker 2: assistant and I thought that that was really interesting because
Speaker 2: all of the people that were forensic texts there were
Speaker 2: just high school educated and didn't really have any knowledge
Speaker 2: of medicine. And I thought, how awesome it would be
Speaker 2: to have a medical person cutting the bodies and finding
Speaker 2: things along the way to help the doctors because they
Speaker 2: seem so overwhelmed with all the cases and everything. So, yeah,
Speaker 2: I totally with you. So one of the things there
Speaker 2: are questions I like to ask because this was a
Speaker 2: big thing when I went to PA School. When when
Speaker 2: I went to PA School, you graduate and you get
Speaker 2: a job and then there's no jobs, right because there's
Speaker 2: not that many pas in the world compared to like nurses. Right,
Speaker 2: So are there a lot of opportunities for forensic nurses?
Speaker 2: Do you do you know if they're available or have
Speaker 2: you heard of jobs opening?
Speaker 1: I I think the answer, unfortunately is no. In my state,
Speaker 1: it's so unique. The job that I have, I just
Speaker 1: happened to come across it and was the most qualified applicant.
Speaker 1: I really created the death investigation programs from nothing. Before me,
Speaker 1: there was a death investigator that again was more law
Speaker 1: enforcement trained, and so he just did things totally different,
Speaker 1: and I just saw a lot of opportunity to create
Speaker 1: something new. So I think that if somebody's interested, they
Speaker 1: might have to just be entrepreneurial and very persistent with
Speaker 1: their EM's office or their DA's office and voice why
Speaker 1: they would be good at creating something like what I
Speaker 1: have here, And if anyone's interested in that, they could
Speaker 1: always reach out to me. I think you need a
Speaker 1: lot of support from various different agencies to do that.
Speaker 1: So if it doesn't already exist, you're going to have
Speaker 1: to get creative. Somebody could apply for the Medical Examiner's office.
Speaker 1: Maybe to get their foot in the door. But I
Speaker 1: think as a saying nurse, that's the biggest area where
Speaker 1: you'd have the most opportunity to get started, because hopefully
Speaker 1: one day every single emergency department's going to have a
Speaker 1: sane program. We're nowhere near that at all right now.
Speaker 1: There's a lot of areas that don't have a forensically
Speaker 1: trained nurse to take care of them if they've been
Speaker 1: sexually assaulted. But I mean, broadly speaking, the area of
Speaker 1: forensics is huge. Like, if you live in a metropolitan
Speaker 1: area and you're a forensic nurse and you have saying
Speaker 1: and MDI training, you could go into every single patient
Speaker 1: that might be a domestic violence victim, go in and
Speaker 1: do an assessment. You could do strangulation assessment, pediatric abuse assessment,
Speaker 1: I mean elderly abuse and neglect. I mean it literally
Speaker 1: spans the lifespan. I've caught a lot of elderly neglect
Speaker 1: death cases where law enforcement thinks, oh, this person's old
Speaker 1: and they just died at home and it's nothing suspicious,
Speaker 1: and I review the scene photos and the report and
Speaker 1: I think, oh, hell no, this is this is suspicious,
Speaker 1: and we died into it, and we see they had,
Speaker 1: you know, coint court appointed caregiver, somebody that's legally responsible
Speaker 1: for them and they're doing their job and this person
Speaker 1: died from hypothermia, for example. And we've had a couple
Speaker 1: of those kind of cases, and it's it's it's a
Speaker 1: huge area that has a lot of potential for growth,
Speaker 1: but we're not quite there yet.
Speaker 2: That's that's really interesting. I think you're really onto something,
Speaker 2: and it makes me really excited to hear that you're
Speaker 2: kind of creating that. I really just from a person
Speaker 2: that was heavily involved with the Emmy's office, I see
Speaker 2: your position as a nurse being so valuable that I
Speaker 2: think you're onto something for sure. So I think that's
Speaker 2: really cool that you're I mean, it sucks that you
Speaker 2: have this job that is so dreamy that everybody can't
Speaker 2: just go get right, but but you're starting it. You're
Speaker 2: starting a movement, and it's really cool. So I guess
Speaker 2: that was one of the questions I had for you
Speaker 2: when you were working in the er. You were just
Speaker 2: working as an er nurse, and then they would call
Speaker 2: you in for those specific cases because obviously you're not
Speaker 2: just sitting around twiddling your thumbs. And waiting for them
Speaker 2: to come in.
Speaker 1: Right. Yeah, I've seen it done two different ways. You
Speaker 1: could either be an er nurse working your normal shift,
Speaker 1: and then if a sane patient comes in, you go
Speaker 1: one to one with that patient for a few hours,
Speaker 1: and another nurse picks up your patients and then you
Speaker 1: know with that you're not there's no perk in terms
Speaker 1: of extra pay, You're just you're already on shift. So
Speaker 1: you've just got a different patient load. But that's difficult
Speaker 1: because if the ear is busy and understaffed, which they
Speaker 1: always are, always are, Yeah, that's gonna be hard. And
Speaker 1: so now a lot of hospital systems are moving towards
Speaker 1: a third party. So there are sane companies that train
Speaker 1: their sane nurses and provide twenty four to seven coverage.
Speaker 1: And that's what I do here. So I work for
Speaker 1: company and I cover two different counties and we all
Speaker 1: share twenty four to seven call. It's a very flexible
Speaker 1: work schedule and I choose when I want to work
Speaker 1: and it's it's either twelve or twenty four hour shifts.
Speaker 1: And I'll just get a call from something called medical Messenger.
Speaker 1: They'll call and say, hey, there's a thirty six year
Speaker 1: old female at the certain hospital and they were assaulted,
Speaker 1: you know, two days ago. And then we go in
Speaker 1: and so we will go in and take over for
Speaker 1: that nurse as the forensic nurse and do our exam,
Speaker 1: make recommendations on medications, share that with the physician, and
Speaker 1: then the doctor will order whatever we decide we'll be
Speaker 1: giving that patient. And then at that point our job
Speaker 1: is done, and then the ear nurse takes over to
Speaker 1: medicate that patient and discharge. So we kind of work
Speaker 1: hand in hand, but it's a lot more I think
Speaker 1: time cost effective and time effective because sometimes you'll get
Speaker 1: two calls, you know, one after the other, and so
Speaker 1: I'll be at a hospital taking care of somebody and
Speaker 1: then there's another patient that's showed upwhere else, and so
Speaker 1: we'll have to decide can it wait until I'm done,
Speaker 1: or we just have a huge pool of nurses we
Speaker 1: can call from and say, hey, is anyone ready to
Speaker 1: pick this up?
Speaker 2: Okay, that's cool. So when you go see these patients
Speaker 2: in the hospital, are you the one that's actually collecting
Speaker 2: the specimens from them?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 2: And so what during your training you learn exactly, you know,
Speaker 2: what would you do take fingernail scrapings. Would you do
Speaker 2: that on a person that's live still.
Speaker 1: Or yeah, so again, and that it depends on where
Speaker 1: you live. They'll have different expectations. But so for the
Speaker 1: state that I'm in, I can respond up to one
Speaker 1: hundred and twenty hours after someone's been assaulted. So that's
Speaker 1: five days. That is the number that we use to
Speaker 1: decide if we still have a chance of collecting forensic evidence.
Speaker 1: And I think nationwide that's pretty standard. So five days.
Speaker 1: If somebody is sexually assaulted, they could come into the
Speaker 1: er say hey, I was sexually assaulted, and they may
Speaker 1: or may not want to report to law enforcement. Again,
Speaker 1: that's jurisdictional and it depends. It depends on the age
Speaker 1: and a whole bunch of other factors, but fits your
Speaker 1: average sexual assault patient. Then I would come in and
Speaker 1: do a thorough interview. So I would be asking first
Speaker 1: of all, all the medical questions, like I want to
Speaker 1: know about their medical history just from a nursing perspective,
Speaker 1: the things that are important, And then I'll ask what
Speaker 1: they can remember happen to them. And I'm writing everything down,
Speaker 1: I'm using quotations, I'm being as objective as possible. And
Speaker 1: so there's a chart that we use. It's either paper
Speaker 1: or on the computer. It's about sixteen pages, so it's
Speaker 1: long and it does take a couple of hours. But
Speaker 1: I'm just writing down everything they can remember, and that
Speaker 1: helps dictate the physical exam. If they remember certain things
Speaker 1: like I was pushed down, or I was held down
Speaker 1: by my wrists, or I was choked, those are areas
Speaker 1: where there might be potential DNA, and that will be
Speaker 1: where I swab with sterile Q tips. I will use
Speaker 1: an ultimate light source to look when it's dark with
Speaker 1: this particular light to see if there's body fluids that eliminate.
Speaker 1: I will look at them literally had to toe and
Speaker 1: mark any kind of anything and you kind of bruise
Speaker 1: the area of pain abrasion. I will do a peltic
Speaker 1: exam and same thing. Document anywhere there's pain. If there's
Speaker 1: something that I see, like maybe a hair that doesn't match,
Speaker 1: or one time I saw literally dirt in somebody's vaginal wall,
Speaker 1: I swapped that. And even if they don't remember anything,
Speaker 1: there's pretty much a standard process that all of us
Speaker 1: will use because if you think about a rape, there's
Speaker 1: likely going to be saliva or DNA transfer from aggressive
Speaker 1: handling on somebody's neck or breasts or wrists or thighs
Speaker 1: for example. So there's a lot of swabs that we
Speaker 1: get just no matter what, oral swabs for a DNA
Speaker 1: standard or there might be saliva or seen in there.
Speaker 1: We asked questions like when was the last time you
Speaker 1: had consensual sex? Because maybe that somebody has a partner
Speaker 1: that they just had sex with four days ago and
Speaker 1: that was consensual, but two days ago they were raped,
Speaker 1: and so now there could be different DNA from two
Speaker 1: different people there, and that's important for the forensic lab
Speaker 1: to know.
Speaker 2: Wow, this is so this is really interesting because I
Speaker 2: obviously I don't take care of live patients, so I
Speaker 2: just never I've always been curious about this stuff. So
Speaker 2: on average, and I know it probably varies from place
Speaker 2: to place, but I mean, how many of these types
Speaker 2: of sexual assaults do you see in a week or
Speaker 2: just on average?
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, the area, it's it's so hard to say
Speaker 1: because I share call with about maybe twelve to fourteen
Speaker 1: other nurses, and so I only know what I see.
Speaker 1: I get called a couple of times a month, and
Speaker 1: that's when I see everybody. So I see ages zero
Speaker 1: to one hundred, I mean pedes, adolescents, adults. I'm trained
Speaker 1: for all of that, So definitely a handful of month.
Speaker 1: I don't know what our numbers are for last year.
Speaker 1: That's a great question, and I'm curious. But I live
Speaker 1: in more of a rural area and so it's not
Speaker 1: going to be as high as like Portland, Oregon, for example,
Speaker 1: or me or something like that. So but of the
Speaker 1: ones that we see, I mean, it's just different every
Speaker 1: single time. You always learn something. When you're done. We
Speaker 1: do a lot of peer review and share things that
Speaker 1: are helpful to each other because you know it's hit
Speaker 1: and miss or feast or famine. I always say, it's
Speaker 1: like you could go a couple of months without a
Speaker 1: call and then you start to feel rusty. So we
Speaker 1: do a lot of meetings with the team and share
Speaker 1: forensic photos that are important. And I mean, pediatrics is
Speaker 1: a whole other beast in terms of trying to do
Speaker 1: an exam like that on a toddler, for example, a baby,
Speaker 1: Like it's just it's so hard and then you're dealing
Speaker 1: with the parents and the emotions that come with that.
Speaker 2: So yeah, that was one of my questions. I had
Speaker 2: for you. I was always able to disconnect from the
Speaker 2: pediatric autopsies at Children's Hospital, but when I went to
Speaker 2: the eme's office and saw abuse and kids getting killed
Speaker 2: by for even car accidents, it really kind of fucked
Speaker 2: me up. Yeah, so I was, But I know that
Speaker 2: there's people that are designed to fit every aspect of
Speaker 2: this world. That's what makes it great. Right. Do you
Speaker 2: have what case would bring more emotion to you? Have
Speaker 2: you ever had any kind of emotion because you have
Speaker 2: to be in the room like the squared away one
Speaker 2: that's just that's doing your job and not get distracted
Speaker 2: by that stuff. But have have you ever had any
Speaker 2: cases that make you feel emotional or you think about
Speaker 2: all night when you go home or something like that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure, I do.
Speaker 2: I mean, trust listen, I get it because I'm able
Speaker 2: to turn it off like and have no emotions most
Speaker 2: of the time. But yeah, I could recall a few
Speaker 2: cases that I was that you know, a baby that
Speaker 2: died on Christmas Eve or something, you know, just like
Speaker 2: things like that that I go home and it stays
Speaker 2: in my mind when normally I'm pretty desensitized to it.
Speaker 2: I get that you have to disconnect for your job.
Speaker 1: I know I do have some that come to mind,
Speaker 1: for sure, and I think I compartmentalized pretty well, but
Speaker 1: you just can't help some of those that stick in
Speaker 1: your mind that are just like extra horrifically sad and unnecessary.
Speaker 1: And I think that the ones that are the worst
Speaker 1: are the ones where there's just obvious signs of abuse
Speaker 1: and neglect combined with the sexual abuse, because it's just
Speaker 1: all the things that are so terrible for this kid.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's so it just sucks that we live in
Speaker 2: a world like this. You just don't want to think
Speaker 2: that anybody would, especially a child. It's just yeah, so gross.
Speaker 2: But how did you So you did you start off
Speaker 2: school like you did RN and BSN. You've gone through
Speaker 2: this whole thing. So you were an RN and were
Speaker 2: even a BSM prior to even taking the certification for sane.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was a BSN right from the start. So
Speaker 1: when I first said nurse, I just got my four
Speaker 1: year out of the way and then went into the
Speaker 1: er and then my second year as nursing as when
Speaker 1: I became a sane. So I've done it for a
Speaker 1: long time.
Speaker 2: So you've based you've always been an R nurse that's
Speaker 2: all you ever like what I guess the question I'm
Speaker 2: getting at is how did you know that this was
Speaker 2: because you seem like this is a good fit for you.
Speaker 2: You're very you're you're very into it and you're gonna
Speaker 2: make changes in the field, and I love that. So
Speaker 2: how did you know that that's something that was going
Speaker 2: to be your, like your thing?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I I wouldn't say I was interested in forensics Initially.
Speaker 1: I always knew I wanted to do the er because
Speaker 1: I thought the adrenaline is great. It totally suits me.
Speaker 1: I'm cool, calm, and collected ninety nine percent of the time,
Speaker 1: and it just it was also an area where I
Speaker 1: like taking care of people, but I don't want to
Speaker 1: take care of them for days and days and days.
Speaker 1: I like when they come in and then they leave.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's that's good, right.
Speaker 1: And the same thing came about just because we didn't
Speaker 1: have that coverage in our county and so our manager
Speaker 1: asked everybody, Hey, does anybody want to do this? And
Speaker 1: I volunteered. So I think three or four of us
Speaker 1: went and got trained at And at first I thought
Speaker 1: that was like just a lot, because I'd never had
Speaker 1: I don't think I'd had any sane patients at that point.
Speaker 1: And the training is just incredibly heavy. It is so sad,
Speaker 1: and and it just has to be that way. There's
Speaker 1: no other way to get somebody prepared to appropriately take
Speaker 1: care of a rape victim than case studies and pictures
Speaker 1: and examples of like the worst of the worst. So
Speaker 1: it was definitely eye opening. But then once you start
Speaker 1: taking care of your first couple of patients, I was
Speaker 1: just I loved it. I was I was like, I
Speaker 1: felt like I did a good job because I was
Speaker 1: able to empathize but also be objective and just take
Speaker 1: good care of them. And I know that also most
Speaker 1: people say I could never do that, and those are
Speaker 1: the people I don't want taking care of those patients.
Speaker 1: It's got to be the select few that are meant
Speaker 1: to do that kind of work. And there's a lot
Speaker 1: of times where we'll get nurses totally trained up and
Speaker 1: it's deer in headlights for them, and they do a
Speaker 1: couple of exams just shadowing, and they'll say, I can't
Speaker 1: do this, And to me, that's no big loss, because
Speaker 1: you don't. If you think you can't do it, then
Speaker 1: you can't do it. And I don't want you taking
Speaker 1: care of patients like that when they're going to be
Speaker 1: so vulnerable and emotional and maybe altered. I mean, you
Speaker 1: just have to be the best you can to take
Speaker 1: care of them in that moment, because you're also going
Speaker 1: to have other healthcare providers, doctors, law enforcement that are
Speaker 1: going to have an attitude towards people like this. And
Speaker 1: I see it still more than i'd like to, where
Speaker 1: somebody has an attitude like, well, if she wasn't so drunk,
Speaker 1: maybe that wouldn't have happened, you know, or whatever she
Speaker 1: was wearing like that wouldn't have happened, or it's suggestive
Speaker 1: or something, and that's just that's bullshit. So if anybody
Speaker 1: has that kind of attitude towards somebody like that, then
Speaker 1: screw that and they shouldn't be taking care of patients
Speaker 1: at all.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's true, because there's actually a case, I don't know,
Speaker 2: I'm sure you've heard of it, that there was an
Speaker 2: LSU student that was raped by two I think it
Speaker 2: was two fellow college students and then she got out
Speaker 2: of they let her out of the car on the street,
Speaker 2: and then a car drove by and like killed her.
Speaker 2: I don't know if it just happened recently, but yeah,
Speaker 2: the defense team is obviously trying to say that she
Speaker 2: was drunk, and they have proof that she you know,
Speaker 2: it just it really pisses me off, and from a
Speaker 2: mother's perspective of sending your kid away to college. But
Speaker 2: in a case like that, for example, because you're talking
Speaker 2: about a lot like taking care of live people and stuff,
Speaker 2: but case like that, would you be involved with collecting
Speaker 2: specimens for the autopsy too, or you only deal with
Speaker 2: live people.
Speaker 1: No, I could totally do it on a decedent. But
Speaker 1: I had a case a while back where it was
Speaker 1: somebody that committed to a side a female, a young female.
Speaker 1: And you know, suicide's a hard concept for people to grasp,
Speaker 1: and especially family to understand why somebody does that. And
Speaker 1: I got a call from a family member begging me
Speaker 1: to do a saane exam on her daughter just because
Speaker 1: she thought, well, maybe she was raped and that's why
Speaker 1: she killed herself, and she just didn't. She was looking
Speaker 1: for a reason, and I get that, But what it
Speaker 1: came down to is there was no no anything to
Speaker 1: lead us to believe that she was sexually assaulted or
Speaker 1: touched or anything. There was just history there and it
Speaker 1: wasn't enough for us to be able to do a
Speaker 1: sane exam. But it brought up the question, and so
Speaker 1: I started asking other death investigators around me and even
Speaker 1: our state medical examiner, do you ever do sain kits
Speaker 1: on someone's that's deceased. And the collective answer was pretty
Speaker 1: much no. I mean, because as soon as somebody dies,
Speaker 1: their tissues are deteriorating and things are changing, you're going
Speaker 1: to lose evidence if the body's then moved and put
Speaker 1: into a body bag and transported. I mean, there's just
Speaker 1: so many factors that come into play when somebody's dead
Speaker 1: that it would be difficult to do a proper scene exam.
Speaker 1: And also just manipulating the tissues. I mean, you know
Speaker 1: what a body feels like when they're dead. It would
Speaker 1: be really hard. And I was told also that using
Speaker 1: those que tits to collect evidence on tissue where the
Speaker 1: person is dead, you're just going to get a lot
Speaker 1: of that other gunk on there that's not It would
Speaker 1: be hard for the Friends of Glad to do whatever
Speaker 1: it is that they do, So I just in my experience,
Speaker 1: it's not been done, and our emmy made it sound
Speaker 1: like it would be very unlikely to happen. But Okay,
Speaker 1: that's just my experience.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I understand that. So but if there was a
Speaker 2: they did an autopsy on someone and there were clear
Speaker 2: signs of sexual assault, then they then in those cases
Speaker 2: they would do that obviously.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and we do have kits available in the works,
Speaker 1: so they must be there for a reason. But yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't see why you couldn't just do some some
Speaker 1: swabs and see what you get. It wouldn't bear.
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Speaker 2: great book. Getting back to so, you were saying that
Speaker 2: when you were working in the er that you would
Speaker 2: just get paid the same salary because you were already
Speaker 2: on shift. But do you know anything This is kind
Speaker 2: of a personal question. I'm not trying to ask you,
Speaker 2: like how much you make, but I'm just asking for
Speaker 2: people that may be interested in the field. Do you
Speaker 2: get paid, like on average, the same as you would
Speaker 2: if you were just still working in the er or
Speaker 2: do you as because I feel like the more specialized
Speaker 2: you are, the more you should get paid personally, But
Speaker 2: I don't know if that's true in your field.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's I would say it's not. Of the different
Speaker 1: companies I've worked for, a lot of them are nonprofits
Speaker 1: and so that they don't have a lot of money
Speaker 1: to give, and so you know, the perks would be
Speaker 1: they'd pay for your training and your education and your
Speaker 1: recertification and things like that. But when you're doing the job.
Speaker 1: In my experience, it's been I'll get paid like five
Speaker 1: dollars an hour to be on call, so five dollars
Speaker 1: times however many hours I won't call, and then if
Speaker 1: I get called in, I would get a lump sum
Speaker 1: based on if it's day shift or night shift, and
Speaker 1: I might get a differential on the holidays, or a
Speaker 1: different rate if it's pediatrics versus adult. So there's a
Speaker 1: couple of variables there, and it's not big money at all.
Speaker 1: I think that one hundred percent of the nurses, this
Speaker 1: is all their second job, and so it's extra income.
Speaker 1: It's not benefited. It's not like you get any perks.
Speaker 1: It's just it's just going to be some extra money
Speaker 1: for you. But you know, for everybody that loves it,
Speaker 1: it's totally worth it. And I've worked for different companies
Speaker 1: that have paid drastically different and it's nice when you
Speaker 1: get paid more, but I still will do it even
Speaker 1: getting paid less, because it's important and I love it.
Speaker 1: And then it can lead to other things, like it
Speaker 1: led to the death investigation job that I have.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I find that just in general. I remember
Speaker 2: when I rotated at the Emmy's office. I really wanted
Speaker 2: to do autopsies there as a job, and they said
Speaker 2: they would hire me, but they basically were like, you're
Speaker 2: getting paid, like we pay the text like it was
Speaker 2: something really. I mean this was back in two thousand
Speaker 2: and seven, but they were getting paid like thirty twenty
Speaker 2: eight or thirty thousand dollars a year with the exception
Speaker 2: of like being able to work overtime and get more,
Speaker 2: but then basically working forty hours, you know, or eighty
Speaker 2: hours a week to get to get a normal like salary,
Speaker 2: I think, and in forensics in jail, I mean this,
Speaker 2: I only have experience with Philadelphia, so but I think
Speaker 2: that it seems like they don't really because it's a
Speaker 2: government job kind of, so they don't pay, they don't
Speaker 2: have money, and it's unfortunate because when you're talking, I
Speaker 2: think about how important your job is it, but that
Speaker 2: doesn't always that doesn't always equal like what you would
Speaker 2: get paid to do something like that. But obviously you
Speaker 2: do it because you you know, people do it because
Speaker 2: they love it and that's that's cool. Have you you were?
Speaker 2: So what's what is the follow through with your cases?
Speaker 1: So?
Speaker 2: For example, if you work on someone, do you get
Speaker 2: do you find out like what happened, if any of
Speaker 2: the evidence you collected yielded something, if there was any
Speaker 2: kind of prosecution or anything in regards to your particular cases.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so if you're proactive, you might be able to
Speaker 1: find that out. Every county should have something like a
Speaker 1: start which a sexual assault Response team or NDT, A
Speaker 1: multidisciplinary team, and that might be quarterly where you have
Speaker 1: all different key players like the district attorney or prosecuting attorneys,
Speaker 1: law enforcement detectives, the SAANE nurses, the advocacy center staff
Speaker 1: get together quarterly, for example, and meet and discuss cases
Speaker 1: that have happened in that past past quarter. So you
Speaker 1: if you go to those and participate, then yeah, you
Speaker 1: might find that out because because they would have that information.
Speaker 1: But also cases that go to court and are prosecuted,
Speaker 1: then you would likely be subpoanut and so then you
Speaker 1: would definitely find out what happened. So there are times
Speaker 1: when you will, but there's a lot of times when
Speaker 1: you'll just never see or hear from them again.
Speaker 2: Okay, that was That was Actually another question I had
Speaker 2: for you was you have to go to court, so
Speaker 2: there is a chance that you would have to go
Speaker 2: to court on some cases. Yeah, oh my god, have
Speaker 2: you ever have you ever gone to court yet? Or no?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I have a couple of times. It's always you
Speaker 1: always get nervous because you know your chart's up there
Speaker 1: and by dissecting every single thing you said, and you're noticing, God,
Speaker 1: my handwriting is terrible, or spell that I look like
Speaker 1: an idiot, and they just really hammer you big time
Speaker 1: about you know, why are you so qualified to be
Speaker 1: there to do that job? And it makes you kind
Speaker 1: of second guess yourself, or at least the defense tries
Speaker 1: to do that. But yeah, it's happened, and usually people
Speaker 1: don't get much time, but sometimes they do or it
Speaker 1: could be a third strike offense and they get life
Speaker 1: in prison, and that always feels really good.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's I went to court once with the Emmy,
Speaker 2: well a couple of times actually, and those defense attorneys
Speaker 2: were just giving it to them, you know, they were
Speaker 2: really trying to screw them up, and it just was
Speaker 2: it was really it was a cool experience for me
Speaker 2: because I was just kind of in the audience watching
Speaker 2: like a real life law and order situation. But for them,
Speaker 2: I thought like, oh my god, that would strust me
Speaker 2: out so bad.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's not fun, but you also just have to
Speaker 1: realize it's part of your job and you're just being
Speaker 1: honest and speaking to what happened in that moment. And
Speaker 1: the biggest thing is you just have to document everything,
Speaker 1: you know, just don't leave any room for interpretation.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and always just think this is going to court
Speaker 2: so someone else is going to be in this chart
Speaker 2: or whatever.
Speaker 1: Every single time, and yeah, assume every chart is going
Speaker 1: to go to court.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Also, so I saw that you have an Instagram
Speaker 2: account that's at forensic dot nurse correct h that it's cool.
Speaker 2: I checked it out. I hope that a bunch of
Speaker 2: our people will start following you. You can get more
Speaker 2: followers and kind of spread the word about that. Trust me,
Speaker 2: so many nurses, so so many nurses say they would
Speaker 2: they want to know if they could do my job,
Speaker 2: and it would really be a pain in the ass
Speaker 2: for you to become a PA after you're a nurse
Speaker 2: because you have to go to school all over again. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and this is I think it's more interesting than my job.
Speaker 1: Well, yeah it is.
Speaker 2: And on.
Speaker 1: There's just a lot of opportunities for growth, so people
Speaker 1: can make it what it it needs to be in
Speaker 1: the community that they live in. But you just don't
Speaker 1: usually have that knowledge that this even exists. So I
Speaker 1: think I don't have that many followers, but of the
Speaker 1: ones that I do, I've just had genuine interest from
Speaker 1: people that are pre nursing or nursing students or they've
Speaker 1: been nurses for a long time. And they just messaged
Speaker 1: me and asked, how do I get into this? It's
Speaker 1: exactly what I want to do, and the other to
Speaker 1: answer a question you had earlier. Another reason I fell
Speaker 1: into this was because I have always had an interest
Speaker 1: in law enforcement. I've always thought being a detective would
Speaker 1: be a fascinating and satisfying and I've also just really
Speaker 1: kind of come to love the world of helping victims
Speaker 1: of sex trafficking or human trafficking, and so I've learned
Speaker 1: a lot about that through my saying training. And I
Speaker 1: before I became a forensic nurse, like as the death investigator,
Speaker 1: I was so burned out with nursing. I had done
Speaker 1: it long enough that I was bitter and hated going
Speaker 1: to work every day, and I wanted a career change,
Speaker 1: and so I looked into becoming a police officer. And
Speaker 1: so I did all the testing that was needed and
Speaker 1: interviews and things like that, and I made it to
Speaker 1: the chiefs interview of the agency that I wanted to
Speaker 1: work for. But that was like January of twenty and
Speaker 1: then COVID kicked off, and so they ended up switching
Speaker 1: their hiring to just lateral transfers instead of new officers,
Speaker 1: So that kind of derailed me at that time, but
Speaker 1: ultimately it led me to this jobs though it worked
Speaker 1: out in the end. But I just have always had
Speaker 1: that love of the law enforcement side and criminal shenanigans
Speaker 1: that happened. Just it aligns with being an er nurse
Speaker 1: or even a nurse in general, where you just have
Speaker 1: that dark, sarcastic, extensive humor and it meshes very well.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's so cool. It's like so exciting to meet
Speaker 2: you and talk to you about this because I've always wondered.
Speaker 2: I've heard that there's forensic nurses, but I don't. I'm
Speaker 2: not a nurse, and so many people that are in
Speaker 2: the gross room are so this this is going to
Speaker 2: be so interesting for them to hear. I guess that's
Speaker 2: all I have. Really, that's all I had to ask.
Speaker 2: Do you have anything that I completely didn't think of?
Speaker 1: Or oh, I don't think so. I mean, I think
Speaker 1: we hit all the high points as far as addressing
Speaker 1: if somebody is interested, what they could do, you know,
Speaker 1: locally to kind of look into it. Just just ask
Speaker 1: questions in job shadow, I think that's my biggest piece
Speaker 1: of advice, is to seek out the information that you're
Speaker 1: wanting and if there's somebody that you know that has
Speaker 1: a job you're interested in, see if you can shadow
Speaker 1: them and interview them yourself.
Speaker 2: So what are the rules as far as that goes?
Speaker 2: Because things have changed a lot obviously over since I
Speaker 2: started to Like I used to be able to have
Speaker 2: college students that just wanted to see an autopsy that
Speaker 2: might be interested in pathology to come and now you know,
Speaker 2: fast forward, it's a hippa. We don't want anyone in
Speaker 2: the autopsy room that's not supposed to be in there.
Speaker 2: You know, they get a little crazy with that. So
Speaker 2: let's say a nursing a nurse or a nursing student
Speaker 2: wanted to shadow you. I mean they can't really go
Speaker 2: on a real call with you, right or how does
Speaker 2: that work?
Speaker 1: That would probably just be a case by case basis.
Speaker 1: I think if it was your run of the mill
Speaker 1: death scene that I went to, it might be allowed.
Speaker 1: I would have to clear it with the people that
Speaker 1: I work for. But if it's something potentially criminal, then yeah,
Speaker 1: we usually don't let anybody come in and participate in
Speaker 1: anyway because I mean, you might be subpoena to yourself
Speaker 1: if you're there and so, but it also depends on
Speaker 1: your medical examiner, like mine is very open to teaching
Speaker 1: and having people watch. So I have invited some of
Speaker 1: the people that are interested to come shadow and autopsy
Speaker 1: because I do assist with those as well, and I've
Speaker 1: had a nurse shadow me for some of the things
Speaker 1: that I do. Sometimes we'll just sit down and talk
Speaker 1: about it, just because it's natural to have questions, like
Speaker 1: the things that you're asking are the things that other
Speaker 1: people ask, And nurses will say, how do you get
Speaker 1: blood from a dead person? Like I can't even figure
Speaker 1: that out? And then I tell them and I show
Speaker 1: them and it's mind blowing because it's just completely different
Speaker 1: than working with a live person.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think shadow I always say that too because
Speaker 2: on so for our fields, for a pathologists assistant, it's like, you, really,
Speaker 2: there's not really many things you could do. You could
Speaker 2: work in surgical pathology or autopsy, but like that's it.
Speaker 2: So if you don't like it, you're stuck with it, basically.
Speaker 2: And so many of my classmates and students that have
Speaker 2: gone through the program haven't shadowed someone prior and they
Speaker 2: don't even know. Like even my classmates had no idea
Speaker 2: what the job was going to be when they graduated,
Speaker 2: and I was already working at the hospital, so I
Speaker 2: would bring them in and be like, hey, this is
Speaker 2: where you're going to work all the time, and you know,
Speaker 2: show them and stuff. But it makes no sense to
Speaker 2: sign up for that huge tuition bill and go through
Speaker 2: all that hard college and then not really know that
Speaker 2: you want to do something, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, that's how I felt about nursing, and I
Speaker 1: just fell into it and I didn't know what else
Speaker 1: I wanted to do when I was nineteen, and I
Speaker 1: just have been persistent and made it something that I
Speaker 1: do enjoy and I'm grateful that it pays the bills
Speaker 1: and provides job security, but I've never loved it. But
Speaker 1: the job that I have now I love. So it
Speaker 1: took a while, but I.
Speaker 2: Could tell that you love it. That's it all worked
Speaker 2: out good. But you look like you're like around my age, right,
Speaker 2: So it was when we were younger and getting ready
Speaker 2: to go to school, that's what you did. You were
Speaker 2: a nurse's Yeah, they were like, you're going to be
Speaker 2: a nurse, and that's what girls did, right, And now
Speaker 2: it's that's why I love your profession, because I think
Speaker 2: you're gonna like you said something that I've heard myself say,
Speaker 2: which is nobody knew this existed. And that's what got
Speaker 2: me to start my Instagram because I was like, nobody
Speaker 2: in the world knows how cool this stuff is that's
Speaker 2: going on behind the scenes. So I think you're going
Speaker 2: to be an innervative person in this field, and it
Speaker 2: just makes me really excited that I got to talk
Speaker 2: to you.
Speaker 1: Yeah, this has been great, and so.
Speaker 2: Yeah, guys, just follow her on Instagram at forensic dot
Speaker 2: nurse and I'll also get some information off of her
Speaker 2: to put on this post as far as like additional
Speaker 2: resources that you could or if you even want to
Speaker 2: give out your information because you might get a flood
Speaker 2: of people and asking you questions.
Speaker 1: Yeah. The other thing I'll just say real fast is
Speaker 1: that I asked n International Association of Forensic Nurses is
Speaker 1: like the certification you'd have to have so you can
Speaker 1: be a member and you'd get newsletters and information you
Speaker 1: can get certified through them, and all kinds of trainings
Speaker 1: that are free or for a small cost, and then
Speaker 1: they have annual oh gosh, what do they call that
Speaker 1: when you meet every year conference. But yeah, conferences, and
Speaker 1: I went last year in Dallas and it was a blast.
Speaker 1: It's so much information. So if you even think you're
Speaker 1: interested in forensics, just join the IFN and then they
Speaker 1: have tons of information as well.
Speaker 2: Could nurses go to that conference that aren't saying, like,
Speaker 2: could any nurse go to that conference just to see
Speaker 2: if they would be interested in that world? Yeah, that's
Speaker 2: really cool.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you would just pay a little more being a
Speaker 1: non member, but I mean, just do it, and a
Speaker 1: lot of hospitals would probably pay for that if they
Speaker 1: think that that might be something that they're wanting, is
Speaker 1: to provide saying coverage, then you could use that as
Speaker 1: a way to kind of get your foot in the
Speaker 1: door and get trained that way.
Speaker 2: Okay, all right, well thank you so much, Linda. It
Speaker 2: was awesome meeting you. It was well, thank you all right, thanks,
Speaker 2: thank you for listening to mother nos death. As a reminder,
Speaker 2: my training is as a pathologist's assistant. I have a
Speaker 2: master's level education and specialized in anatomy and pathology education.
Speaker 2: I am not a doctor and I have not diagnosed
Speaker 2: or treated anyone dead or alive without the assistance of
Speaker 2: a licensed medical doctor. This show, My website and social
Speaker 2: media accounts are designed to educate and inform people based
Speaker 2: on my experience working in pathology, so they can make
Speaker 2: healthier decisions regarding their life and well being. Always remember
Speaker 2: that science is changing every day and the opinions expressed
Speaker 2: in this episode are based on my knowledge of those
Speaker 2: subjects at the time of publication. If you are having
Speaker 2: a medical problem, have a medical question, or having a
Speaker 2: medical emergency, please contact your physician or visit an urgent
Speaker 2: care center, emergency room, or or hospital. Please rate, review,
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