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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics,

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Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of

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Speaker 1: today's best minds, and Bob Woodward says Trump is far

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Speaker 1: worse than Richard Nixon, and he would know. We have

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Speaker 1: such a great show for you today. The Nation's jeet

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Speaker 1: here talks Donald Trump's continued to send into madness. Then

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Speaker 1: we'll talk to author Jonathan Alter about his new book

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Speaker 1: American Reckoning, inside Trump's trial and my own. But first

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Speaker 1: the news.

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Speaker 2: So, Molly, last night, you and I were on stage

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Speaker 2: doing our file Day of Politics as unusual, our little

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Speaker 2: tour with Rick Wilson, and we missed out on mister

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Speaker 2: Trump doing what I would call some demented behavior of us,

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Speaker 2: swaying back and forth on stage. When I watched this

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Speaker 2: last night, I literally just kept saying what the fuck

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Speaker 2: very loudly through my house.

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Speaker 1: Trump told his supporters to go out and vote on

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Speaker 1: January fifth. A few much.

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Speaker 2: I like it.

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Speaker 1: I like it then the election, but still a good call.

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Speaker 1: I think Republicans should definitely go vote on January fifth.

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Speaker 1: He rambled about the late great Hannibal Lecter, you may

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Speaker 1: remember him. Then somebody fainted and another person fainted, so

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Speaker 1: he stood frozen and silent on stage as music played

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Speaker 1: for thirty seven minutes. Thirty seven minutes.

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Speaker 2: Listening to the Shrek soundtrack, at points.

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Speaker 1: His soundtrack, which included ave Maria a lot of good

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Speaker 1: stuff in there, but also thirty seven minutes of standing

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Speaker 1: on stage sort of voguing for the crowd.

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Speaker 2: I would call it a light sway sachet type thing.

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Speaker 1: A sort of be bomp okay, Yes, yes, imagine if

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Speaker 1: a Democrat, imagine if Joe Biden did that. Yeah, they

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Speaker 1: would be Molly Hemingway, the whole Federalist crew, the Wall

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Speaker 1: Street Journal opinion page. They would be screaming from the rooftops.

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Speaker 2: Well, since he's really losing his mind today, he's at

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Speaker 2: the Economic Club of Chicago and talking to Bloomberg editor

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Speaker 2: in chief John Micklethwaite, Which, if I fucked that pronunciation up,

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Speaker 2: I'll punch in later. What'd you see here? Today?

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Speaker 1: Molly Trump is focused on his economic agenda.

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Speaker 3: I'm sure he is.

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Speaker 1: Right, which includes whatever. So he has about two moves

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Speaker 1: when it comes to economy. One is tariff's. He says

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Speaker 1: that a ten percent tariff, which he has vowed to

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Speaker 1: impose on all other countries importing the US is insufficient

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Speaker 1: to bring jobs back to the country. For that outcome,

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Speaker 1: you need tariffs of fifty percent. So fifty percent tariff

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Speaker 1: will mean that what are you buying. You're buying a

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Speaker 1: thing of hangers. Right, your hangars will cost instead of

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Speaker 1: costing five bucks for ten hangars, it will cost eight

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Speaker 1: bucks for ten hangars, or seven dollars and fifty cents,

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Speaker 1: and everything will get more expensive, which will be inflationary.

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Speaker 1: The moderator the edit entry food, Bloomberg said, tariffs have

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Speaker 1: another side. You could be plunging America into the biggest

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Speaker 1: trade war. Trump says, no, all you have to do

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Speaker 1: is build the plant in the United States and then

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Speaker 1: you don't have any tariffs.

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Speaker 2: Huh. Those immigrants that are going to leave.

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Speaker 1: I want to play his answer on government spending.

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Speaker 4: That's tremendous. Will give me an example of something you

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Speaker 4: will do that will get rid of governments.

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Speaker 3: But let me give you an example.

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Speaker 4: When I came into government, I was the first example

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Speaker 4: coming forward. This is going forward because it's the same thing.

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Speaker 4: When I first sat down, a general came into my

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Speaker 4: office and he said, sir, it's nice to meet you.

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Speaker 4: When you please sign this.

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Speaker 1: I said, what is it.

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Speaker 4: It's a contract for a new air force one which

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Speaker 4: is actually two planes, not one two Boeing seven forty seven.

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Speaker 4: And I said, how much is it? Five point seven

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Speaker 4: billion dollars. It's the hell of an expensive plane. But

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Speaker 4: there's reasons for that. He said, nope, I'm not signing it.

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Speaker 4: I said, who negotiated BARACKU, Sai and Obama. I said,

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Speaker 4: I'm not signing it. Why because he because there's a

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Speaker 4: lot of fat. He said, I'm not signing. It's got

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Speaker 4: to have it three on it. Anyway, long story short,

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Speaker 4: some of you have heard this.

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Speaker 3: I got it down.

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Speaker 4: Too, because first week they cut off four hundred million,

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Speaker 4: he said, I'll cut I met with the head of Boeing. Wait, Dennis,

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Speaker 4: I said, Dennis got to have a three. Five point

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Speaker 4: seven is too much? Five point seven billion? He said,

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Speaker 4: the most I'll take off is four hundred million dollars.

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Speaker 4: I said, well, let's not bad for one conversation. So

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Speaker 4: I got it down. I said, nope, I'm not accepting.

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Speaker 4: Then he took off two more. Then he took off anyway.

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Speaker 4: Two months went by, three months went by. I thought

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Speaker 4: we blew the deal. And I was okay with me.

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Speaker 4: I didn't care. But we should have a new are

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Speaker 4: force one when we see these planes from Saudi Arabia,

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Speaker 4: from different countries brand new, and ours is like thirty

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Speaker 4: two years old, and it's a very different plane. It's

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Speaker 4: much smaller plane. Yeah, the whole thing. The United States

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Speaker 4: should have.

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Speaker 2: The best plane, something real same well.

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Speaker 1: And also like, so he's going to lessen government spending

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Speaker 1: by trying to cheat his vendors, right, I mean, that's

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Speaker 1: that is I'm not sure that's a scalable answer. The

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Speaker 1: thing that I was the most upset by was that

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Speaker 1: Trump wants to influence the FED moves. So remember one

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Speaker 1: of the things that Project twenty twenty five wants to

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Speaker 1: do is to make the FED, the DOJ, many aspects

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Speaker 1: of the sort of the non partisan actors in the

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Speaker 1: federal government to be partisan hacks arm of the Donald

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Speaker 1: Trump campaign. And that's what's happening here. Trump says he

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Speaker 1: wants to influence FED move and then he sort of

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Speaker 1: said he wouldn't order them, but he definitely thinks he's

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Speaker 1: smarter than the chairman of the FED who he actually installed,

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Speaker 1: Jerome Palell. And he says, in fact, look, I think

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Speaker 1: it's the greatest job in government. You show up to

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Speaker 1: the office once a month and say, let's flip a coin,

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Speaker 1: and everyone talks about you like you're a god. He added,

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Speaker 1: I think I'm better than he would be. I think

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Speaker 1: I'm better than most people would be in the position.

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Speaker 1: By the way, somebody give me this kind of self

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Speaker 1: esteem because I never think, oh my god, I'm better

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Speaker 1: than this person. I mean, like, oh, to be a

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Speaker 1: mediocre white guy. I don't think I should be allowed

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Speaker 1: to order it. Oh, okay, well that's nice. But I

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Speaker 1: think I have the right to put in comments as

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Speaker 1: to whether or not interest rate should go up or down.

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Speaker 1: By the way, all he wants is for them to

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Speaker 1: go down. He also refused to answer whether or not

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Speaker 1: Google should be broken up. Again. He basically just meandered

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Speaker 1: and talked about something else. And then when Mikaelwithe asked him,

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Speaker 1: can you say yes or no? Have you talked to

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Speaker 1: Vladimir Putin since being president? Trump was like, no, but

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Speaker 1: if I had, it would have been great, which is

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Speaker 1: he didn't say no. He said I won't comment on that,

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Speaker 1: and he said, but I will tell you that if

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Speaker 1: I did, it's a smart thing. So there you go.

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Speaker 1: If he did, it's a smart thing. What do you

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Speaker 1: want to bet he did.

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Speaker 2: I'm not betting against that.

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Speaker 1: So that's Trump at the Economic Club of Chicago. Though

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Speaker 1: at least he did talk and not just sway to

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Speaker 1: the wind, and for that we should all be impressed

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Speaker 1: that he at least tried to answer some questions. Get

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Speaker 1: here is a contributor to the nation and the host

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Speaker 1: of the time of Monsters. Welcome Back, Too Fast Politics.

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Speaker 3: Jed here always good to be on the program.

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Speaker 1: So I am so glad to have you on this podcast,

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Speaker 1: and I have so many things I want to talk

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Speaker 1: to you about, the first of which is Donald Trump's

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Speaker 1: little dance thirty seven minutes of bopping' and Weavin.

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Speaker 3: I wanted the woke to use liberals, Wade, I mean,

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Speaker 3: you're complaining he gives like two hours of advocating fascism

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Speaker 3: and the mass deportations and spreading horrific conspiracy theories that

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Speaker 3: could get people killed, and then he gives you something

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Speaker 3: different where he's just swaying gently to like, you know,

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Speaker 3: the village people. Yeah, abra ave Maria, yeah, exactly. Why

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Speaker 3: not celebrate the fact that this is the most benign

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Speaker 3: Donald Trump we've ever seen. Why not have a president

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Speaker 3: who's a swaying tree.

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Speaker 1: A swaying tree, well.

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Speaker 3: Moves to the wind. This is like him and his

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Speaker 3: best i've ever seen. I have followed this guy since

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Speaker 3: the nineteen eighties. I've never seen such a benign you know,

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Speaker 3: just sort of smile like Grandpa after you've given him

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Speaker 3: a lot of worphying.

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Speaker 1: So I'm going to give you listeners of full context. Here.

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Speaker 1: Donald Trump was in South Dakota being interviewed by South

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Speaker 1: Dakota Governor Christy Nome, who is most famous for killing

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Speaker 1: her puppy. And again, the Washington Post just absolutely got

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Speaker 1: it right here. They said Trump sways and bops to

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Speaker 1: music for thirty nine minutes in bizarre town hall episode.

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Speaker 1: The scene comes as Vice President Kamala Harris has called

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Speaker 1: Trump seventy eight unstable and called into question his mental acuity.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, aget, I want to set up for Donald Trump here. Well,

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Speaker 3: you wanted to be talking to Christy Nole and like, well,

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Speaker 3: what about like the best way to kill domestic pets? No, right,

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Speaker 3: the suthlist was good. It's the Trump favorites. I'm always

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Speaker 3: in favor of bringing.

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Speaker 1: Oh, the town hall was in Pennsylvania. I'm sorry the

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Speaker 1: town hall was in Pennsylvania, but it was with South

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Speaker 1: Dakota Governor Christine. Thank you Seamus for that fact check.

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Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, So again I have to say, what more

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Speaker 3: do you people want? I believe that you know they

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Speaker 3: were because of the sort of heat waves. I think

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Speaker 3: that there were some people in the audience who had.

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Speaker 1: Two different passed out.

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Speaker 3: Yeah exactly. Trump showing the leadership and command that you

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Speaker 3: want with someone who's gonna might have his finger on

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Speaker 3: the nuclear button, said the best thing to do right

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Speaker 3: now not get overheated with political rhetoric, but like if

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Speaker 3: we all slay gently, we can create a wind that

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Speaker 3: will help the people in the audience revive. I have

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Speaker 3: to say, a masterful performance from the former president.

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Speaker 1: Yeah exactly. I want to just square the circle here.

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Speaker 1: He's seventy eight years old. He's the oldest person to

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Speaker 1: ever run for president. He makes Reagan. I mean Reagan

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Speaker 1: was like almost a decade younger when he ran, and

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Speaker 1: until July, he was running against someone who was older

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Speaker 1: than him, President Biden. And he made his whole case

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Speaker 1: against President Biden was that President Biden was too old

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Speaker 1: and too doddering.

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Speaker 3: And he sees an opportunity there. You had a campaign

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Speaker 3: that was all about Joe Biden being too old and

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Speaker 3: you know, raising these important issues about age, and then

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Speaker 3: once Biden, like you know, did a huge disservice to

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Speaker 3: the country by withdrawing in the Trump's no, no, no. We

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Speaker 3: have to make these issues key to the political campaign.

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Speaker 3: And I will take the role that Joe Biden had.

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Speaker 3: I will even go far beyond anything Joe Biden never

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Speaker 3: did in terms of flaking out, not just at this event,

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Speaker 3: but at other events, somehow pronouncing words in the strangest

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Speaker 3: possible ways, meandering and re associating, which my friend's English

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Speaker 3: professors will tell me is a form of post Wadern

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Speaker 3: discourse called the weave. Yes, the weave and you know

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Speaker 3: like which too much of the public is a good

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Speaker 3: public service on the issue of Yes. In an aging society,

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Speaker 3: you want to be seeing the doctor. You want to

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Speaker 3: be getting those cognitive tasks. I say, he's doing us

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Speaker 3: all a favor.

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Speaker 1: Yes, exactly, he's doing He's reminding us about what it

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Speaker 1: is that the stakes are. The other thing I want

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Speaker 1: to talk to you about is so Trump has this

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Speaker 1: closing message, and it's like authoritarianism. For example, I want

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Speaker 1: to talk about Aurora. So when Aurora, he said, I'm

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Speaker 1: going to invoke this act that's a wartime act. It's

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Speaker 1: called it's a law from the seventeen hundreds. It's the

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Speaker 1: Alien Enemies Act of seventeen ninety eight. It gives the

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Speaker 1: president power to detain or deport foreign enemy as could

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Speaker 1: be broadly applied to target any non citizens. By the way,

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Speaker 1: that's me, not you, because you live in Canada whereas

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Speaker 1: we'll soon live. I'm kidding. I will never leave this

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Speaker 1: country unless I'm deported, which could be possible. He did

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Speaker 1: this at Aurora. I feel like this should be the

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Speaker 1: only story.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely no. I think Trump and his people

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Speaker 3: are basic betting that you know, they can win this

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Speaker 3: election on anti immigration shysteria, and also being willing to

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Speaker 3: do far more than any government has in decades. I mean,

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Speaker 3: there are, you know, in Kenaian American history examples of

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Speaker 3: pretty horrific anti immigrant action, but I mean Trump wants

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Speaker 3: to revive that. I think the act that he wants

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Speaker 3: to revive was pretty specifically one of the foundation stones

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Speaker 3: for the interrement of Japanese Americans is basically an attack

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Speaker 3: on the idea of citizenship has come to be in America,

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Speaker 3: especially after the Civil War, the idea of sort of

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Speaker 3: birthright citizenship, and the idea that you know, like a

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Speaker 3: naturalized citizen, someone who's an immigrant gives a citizen, is

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Speaker 3: a citizen, and you know, like trying to create a

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Speaker 3: class of provisional citizens, your citizens. You know, as long

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Speaker 3: as you make Trump happy, and if he doesn't like you,

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Speaker 3: doesn't like the color of your skin or just what

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Speaker 3: you right, and will unleash the full force of the

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Speaker 3: military and police against it. Yeah, I think that. I mean,

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Speaker 3: there's a couple of interesting things. Is one of which is,

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Speaker 3: you know, you know, don't hear about inflation that much anymore,

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Speaker 3: you don't hear. But like a lot of other issues,

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Speaker 3: this is the one issue. And you know, one could

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Speaker 3: argue that this has always been the core of trump Ism,

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Speaker 3: you know, going back to coming down the elevator and

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Speaker 3: talking about Mexican rapists. But this is what it has

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Speaker 3: come down to. And you know the issue is, you know,

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Speaker 3: are there enough Americans who will blame immigrants and CEO

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Speaker 3: and think that there's enough of a trouble with immigrants

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Speaker 3: that they're willing to suspend the Constitution. I'm cautiously hopeful

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Speaker 3: that there aren't enough Americans, but it's much closer than

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Speaker 3: it should be.

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Speaker 1: We have no idea. Yeah. During this town hall, which

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Speaker 1: is pretty wacky, was on October fourteenth, he told his

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Speaker 1: supporters to go out and vote. On January fifth, he

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Speaker 1: talked about the late great Hannibal Lecter, who you and

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Speaker 1: I know is not real. He acted confused when asked

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Speaker 1: if they should end the event and play a walk

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Speaker 1: off song, and then he stood frozen and silent on

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Speaker 1: stage as music played for thirty plus minutes.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I know, I mean, I having the whole music.

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Speaker 3: I mean it is a very I mean I would

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Speaker 3: encourage listeners to, like just to watch some of the

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Speaker 3: clips around. It's very bizarre because you could tell that

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Speaker 3: the people around him are like kind of puzzled, like, well,

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Speaker 3: why is he doing this? What's exactly going on? And

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Speaker 3: it is you know, I mean, people use a very sundowning,

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Speaker 3: but I think that this is something that's maybe even

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Speaker 3: a little bit of more extreme. And you can just

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Speaker 3: see this in Trump's rhetoric, right, you know, tought would

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Speaker 3: it just be giving a meandering speech and occasion you mentioned,

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Speaker 3: you know, like, well, you know what if I just

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Speaker 3: went to the beach and like, you know, just relax there,

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Speaker 3: or you know, like sometimes I just want to get

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Speaker 3: in a truck and just like drive. And I think

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Speaker 3: that the technical term in psychology is, if not quite

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Speaker 3: suicidal ideation, maybe end bass ideation. Trump is kind of

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Speaker 3: trying to imagine the end is near. How am I

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Speaker 3: going to finish it off? How am I going to

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Speaker 3: get in a good position to see the white light.

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Speaker 1: The other thing I'm struck by is like one of

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Speaker 1: the things that we have so removed ourselves from because

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Speaker 1: we've been living in this election cycle for what feels

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Speaker 1: like one hundred years, is that Donald Trump is still

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Speaker 1: running for president in order to avoid all of his

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Speaker 1: criminal charges.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, well no, I mean that's the only reason he's

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Speaker 3: running for president. I kind of feel at this point

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Speaker 3: there's something a little bit different. I do kind of

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Speaker 3: feel if people always said a line, well, it's like

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Speaker 3: the producers. He doesn't really want it, but.

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Speaker 1: He wants to win. I think because he doesn't want

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Speaker 1: to go to jail.

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Speaker 3: I think that's wrong. But he wants to win. But

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Speaker 3: he wants this time more than even in the past.

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Speaker 3: He wants to win for like purely utilitary and self

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Speaker 3: interested reasons, and I'm not sure his heart is in it,

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Speaker 3: and so he kind of I mean in terms of

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Speaker 3: what I'm talking about, like these kind of like meandering speeches.

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Speaker 3: This is something a little bit different than before. Like

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Speaker 3: I think he's thinking about the end of his life,

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Speaker 3: the end of the road, much more than he ever has.

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Speaker 1: We're all thinking about that our own lives. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's been a decade of covering this guy, and we're

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Speaker 1: all very tired.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, well he's tired. He's tired too, Like he can't

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Speaker 3: even pretend anymore to care. And it's like he's like decided,

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Speaker 3: like you know, like no, I don't want to take questions.

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Speaker 3: I don't want to talk to this South the Quota

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Speaker 3: bulhunt for this audience of Pennsylvania hillbillies. I just want

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Speaker 3: to like, you know, sway in the wind and listen

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Speaker 3: to the Maria. Yeah, listen to my music, you know,

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Speaker 3: put on a few show tunes.

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Speaker 1: He just loves show tunes.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. I think, you know, like if you could somehow

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Speaker 3: arrange the scenario where he gets to, you know, sit

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Speaker 3: on the beach and listen to Andrew Lloyd Weber until

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Speaker 3: the white Light comes to get him.

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Speaker 1: So let's just talk about last week. I saw the

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Speaker 1: Apprentice movie, which Trump is very angry about. He truth

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Speaker 1: quote unquote truth about it.

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Speaker 3: Well, he gave the best possible review because I actually

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Speaker 3: think I know the movie is doing, but I actually

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Speaker 3: think that this will help the movie quite a bit.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and I watched the movie, and you know, I

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Speaker 1: grew up in this city, My parents grew up in

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Speaker 1: this city. The you know, my grandfather knew Roy Cone

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Speaker 1: because Roy Cone was involved in the House on American

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Speaker 1: Activities and putting my grandfather in jail for his political beliefs.

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, he was like McCarthy's like second of command.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, as I'm watching this movie, and you know, one

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Speaker 1: of the things about this movie is Jeremy Strong from

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Speaker 1: Succession is like an incredible does an incredible character study

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Speaker 1: of Roy Cohne and Roy Cone is probably one of

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Speaker 1: the most interesting and evil characters in American political life.

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Speaker 1: And he touched on all of these things. But also

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Speaker 1: you had in this movie Roger Stone and it just

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Speaker 1: was a very it struck me as it reminded me

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Speaker 1: again There's questions about whether or not how much of

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Speaker 1: how successful Roy Cone was in making Donald Trump, crafting

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Speaker 1: Donald Trump into his image, or if Donald Trump was

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Speaker 1: always like that, but it was still I thought quite interesting.

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I know, I know, actually do think that

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Speaker 3: Roy Cone is one of the expealitions of who Donald

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Speaker 3: Trump is. Not to say that, you know, he took

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Speaker 3: this young, unison, decent man and corrupted him. Yeah, Rather,

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Speaker 3: I mean Trump already had a rotten in his soul,

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Speaker 3: but I mean Roy Cohne was the figure who out

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Speaker 3: in the ropes. And the thing is, people forget this

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Speaker 3: but Roy Cone, because Roy conn is such a villain,

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Speaker 3: you know, was so involved with McCarthyism, was a corrupt

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Speaker 3: lawyer who like basically owned a lot of judges that

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Speaker 3: was disbarred, and was a self hating gay man who

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Speaker 3: you know, like such a vicious figure. But he was

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Speaker 3: also a power in the land. I mean Roy Cohn

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Speaker 3: in the sort of seventies and eighties, you know, like

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Speaker 3: at any top New York party would be hanging out,

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Speaker 3: and he would hang out with people from the liberal

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Speaker 3: media because he could do people favors, right, like Barbara Walters,

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Speaker 3: you know, bless her soul was very close to Roy Cone,

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Speaker 3: and so Roy Cone knew that particular New York power

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Speaker 3: structure which is all about so her favors and but

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Speaker 3: also getting the dirt like he was able. He's only

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Speaker 3: he's like a terrible lawyer in terms of knowing the law,

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Speaker 3: but he knew the dirt on all the judges and

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Speaker 3: he knew how to blackmail them, right, And so I

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Speaker 3: think absolutely, I don't think you can make sense of

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Speaker 3: Donald from without how to say interestingly enough, I mean

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Speaker 3: he said, you know, thumbs down from Donald Trump for

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Speaker 3: the movie. But rogers Stold actually gave me a good

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Speaker 3: recommendation where he said, you know, I knew Roy Cohen

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Speaker 3: and you know this movie.

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Speaker 1: It really does seem like Roy Kahn.

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, yeah, No, no, no, I mean no, And

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Speaker 3: it's I mean, I think that the movie captures, uh,

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Speaker 3: you know, like an important part of the story which

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Speaker 3: I think people outside of New York in particular weren't understand.

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Speaker 3: There is that New York world. The late novelist Sidney's

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Speaker 3: Ion described it.

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Speaker 1: Which is called sid giont.

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Speaker 3: Yes, Sid which is all about like Markers, It's all

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Speaker 3: about favors, it's all about the back room deals that

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Speaker 3: you can do, and that's you know, that's a big

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Speaker 3: part of Trump's path to power in terms of show business,

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Speaker 3: but also the relationship with the National A Choir. And

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Speaker 3: then also you know, like the basic roy Cone code,

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Speaker 3: which is like you never apologize, never forgive, you always

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Speaker 3: on the attack, you know. I mean that is the

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Speaker 3: Trump methodology. So I don't know how much time you

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Speaker 3: want to do like sort of psychologue, but I mean

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Speaker 3: that's Trump at his peak. You know, the movie is

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Speaker 3: the young Trump learning his ropes, but like, you know,

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Speaker 3: what we saw over the weekend was, you know, this

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Speaker 3: is the end of the road for the guy, cautiously

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Speaker 3: opul He doesn't win.

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Speaker 1: But I do think the point of like this world

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Speaker 1: being just sort of a by gone world that he

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Speaker 1: is sort of the last vestiges of is pretty interesting.

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Speaker 1: I want you to sort of talk about how Harris

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Speaker 1: can win this thing.

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Speaker 3: Okay, the race is a lot tighter than it is,

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Speaker 3: but I don't want to do too much backseat driving

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Speaker 3: because I think, right, they've actually been doing a lot

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Speaker 3: of the right things.

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Speaker 1: Yeah that's what I think too.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm a super fan of like touting the Chinese

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Speaker 3: or Alberta Gonzalez as much.

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Speaker 1: As they have ignore should you be that's not for you.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's not for me. But also I'm not sure,

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Speaker 3: like if I'm actually like looking at the numbers, you know,

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Speaker 3: it seems like there's still she's a little bit lagging

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Speaker 3: still with young people, people of color, and sort of

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Speaker 3: white working cost So like I actually think, like you know,

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Speaker 3: like I think a traditional Democratic campaign of the type

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Speaker 3: that Joe Biden you know, ran in twenty twenty and

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Speaker 3: Obama around in twenty twelve are the way to go,

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Speaker 3: Like you know, do the union halls spend just a

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Speaker 3: lot of time in those Midwestern states, just shore up

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Speaker 3: those I mean, this is a little bit of good news,

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Speaker 3: which is, you know, you look at the early numbers

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Speaker 3: in Pennsylvania and in Michigan especially like you know, like

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Speaker 3: Detroit and Flint are like you know, forty percent return

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Speaker 3: rate much higher than the rest of the state. So yeah,

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00:22:55,400 --> 00:22:58,040
Speaker 3: I mean, like if I think, like locking down the

434
00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:01,760
Speaker 3: urban vote, which is like people of color, black voters,

435
00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:04,120
Speaker 3: young voters, I think that puts you over the top.

436
00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:06,360
Speaker 3: And I think, like for me, that's what I would

437
00:23:06,400 --> 00:23:08,840
Speaker 3: concentrate on. I know that they also have hopes of

438
00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:11,960
Speaker 3: you know, expending in the suburbs of Philadelphia with this

439
00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:14,320
Speaker 3: never Trump stuff. But yeah, I'm looking at them. I

440
00:23:14,359 --> 00:23:16,680
Speaker 3: think there's just a lot more you know, votes from

441
00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:19,520
Speaker 3: the base than there is, like any more juice to

442
00:23:19,520 --> 00:23:21,159
Speaker 3: be squeezed out of that never Trump.

443
00:23:21,359 --> 00:23:24,240
Speaker 1: The big question is can you get the nikky Haley

444
00:23:24,359 --> 00:23:29,679
Speaker 1: voters without alienating the people that you need your base,

445
00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:33,320
Speaker 1: that you need to juice. And I think that is

446
00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:35,560
Speaker 1: the tension that you're explaining, right.

447
00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:37,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, I know that is the tension. I mean's partially.

448
00:23:37,520 --> 00:23:39,720
Speaker 3: I mean, I'm not so much worried about alien because

449
00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:42,040
Speaker 3: I think the people who the Democratic base understands a

450
00:23:42,040 --> 00:23:43,720
Speaker 3: problem with Trump. I mean, I just I just think

451
00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:45,679
Speaker 3: there in terms of juicing up the numbers of getting

452
00:23:45,680 --> 00:23:48,479
Speaker 3: people out there, you know, even though it's country but Obama,

453
00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:51,119
Speaker 3: I thought, you know, having Obama out there is good.

454
00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:53,480
Speaker 3: I just think that you have to That's where I

455
00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:55,600
Speaker 3: would concentrate the energy. And I think, you know, the

456
00:23:55,640 --> 00:23:59,600
Speaker 3: one the way to unify this very fragmented coalition is

457
00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:02,120
Speaker 3: remind people about Trump, which I think that they're doing

458
00:24:02,119 --> 00:24:04,520
Speaker 3: more of. I think that the closing message is about

459
00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:06,080
Speaker 3: the dangers of Trump and.

460
00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:08,679
Speaker 1: The good news is Trump is reminding people of Trump

461
00:24:08,920 --> 00:24:09,800
Speaker 1: absolutely absolutely.

462
00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:13,200
Speaker 3: I know Trump is in different ways, both in terms

463
00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:15,760
Speaker 3: of the scary Trump who's like calling for basically a

464
00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:20,400
Speaker 3: race war against immogrants, and the more benign grandfather Trump,

465
00:24:20,440 --> 00:24:23,119
Speaker 3: who's kind of like swaying to music and is like

466
00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:25,200
Speaker 3: you're wonder You're like, well, you know, it's this actually

467
00:24:25,359 --> 00:24:27,000
Speaker 3: going to be president. I mean, I think both of

468
00:24:27,040 --> 00:24:30,159
Speaker 3: those things, because I mean the other aspect is Vance,

469
00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:32,359
Speaker 3: who they decided. I mean, I think I thought it

470
00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:34,720
Speaker 3: was a mistake to like go benign on Vance and

471
00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:38,520
Speaker 3: the vice president because like, if it's Trump, Trump is scary,

472
00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:41,440
Speaker 3: and they did a good job early of like Vance

473
00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:42,200
Speaker 3: is weird.

474
00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:45,080
Speaker 1: But Advance is really scary too, though.

475
00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:46,960
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, and it won't be I mean, the thing is,

476
00:24:47,040 --> 00:24:50,280
Speaker 3: if you have a sundowning Trump as president, it will

477
00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:53,040
Speaker 3: be Advance and all these guls from the Aratis Foundation.

478
00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:56,920
Speaker 3: So so I actually think, like, yeah, like just reminding

479
00:24:57,000 --> 00:25:00,320
Speaker 3: people of all the Project twenty twenty five, how you know,

480
00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:04,400
Speaker 3: like weird and freaky Advances and how deal like unstable

481
00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:08,240
Speaker 3: Trump is both in his own authoritarian stakes and also

482
00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:11,120
Speaker 3: he's like sundowning before our very eyes.

483
00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:14,480
Speaker 1: And also one last thing is that I really think

484
00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:18,200
Speaker 1: that what I saw when I was watching that debate,

485
00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:22,000
Speaker 1: the ad vice presidential debate, was that if fascism comes

486
00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:24,960
Speaker 1: to this country, maybe we escape at this time. But

487
00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:28,520
Speaker 1: it did feel like if it comes, it comes wrapped

488
00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:32,160
Speaker 1: up in a Harvard Degrae telling you that they're going

489
00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:35,800
Speaker 1: to fix Obamacare or not that they're going to end it. Yeah.

490
00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:38,760
Speaker 3: No, absolutely absolutely. I mean I think that these that

491
00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:43,159
Speaker 3: sort of slick, sleep ivy league of authoritarianism is always

492
00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:46,560
Speaker 3: the end game here with the federalist society authoritarianism. But

493
00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:48,679
Speaker 3: those guys can never went on their own. They needed

494
00:25:49,119 --> 00:25:53,320
Speaker 3: you know, Trump's genuine popular touch and ability to reach people.

495
00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:57,119
Speaker 3: I think actually in that sense, like the additional anti

496
00:25:57,119 --> 00:26:00,600
Speaker 3: advancing that they did was very important and was very effective,

497
00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:03,239
Speaker 3: and I'm a little bit disappointed that they've you know,

498
00:26:03,359 --> 00:26:06,119
Speaker 3: backed away from that, and that is the true price

499
00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:08,600
Speaker 3: of this kind of you know, attempt to get the

500
00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:11,040
Speaker 3: never trumpet. They decide to go easy on Vans and

501
00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:13,800
Speaker 3: the vice presidential debate. You know, you said, the election's

502
00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:16,240
Speaker 3: gone on forever, but like if we're living in France

503
00:26:16,320 --> 00:26:18,679
Speaker 3: or England or Canada, you know, three weeks is the

504
00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:21,880
Speaker 3: election like it's it's the three weeks, the last three

505
00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:24,639
Speaker 3: weeks where you really make the sprint and make the case,

506
00:26:24,680 --> 00:26:26,879
Speaker 3: and that's when people have to pay attention. So I

507
00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:29,320
Speaker 3: don't actually think it's too late for the Harris campaign

508
00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:31,720
Speaker 3: to do any of the stuff I talked about.

509
00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:33,480
Speaker 1: Thank you, thank you, Thank you.

510
00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:36,640
Speaker 3: Read here always great to talking news.

511
00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:40,400
Speaker 1: Are you concerned about Project twenty twenty five and how

512
00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:44,120
Speaker 1: awful Trump's second term could be? Well so are we,

513
00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:46,639
Speaker 1: which is why we teamed up with iHeart to make

514
00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:50,320
Speaker 1: a limited series with the experts on what a disaster

515
00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:54,480
Speaker 1: Project twenty twenty five would be for America's future. Right now,

516
00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:57,840
Speaker 1: we have just released the final episode of this five

517
00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:01,920
Speaker 1: episode series. They're all about by looking up Molly john

518
00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:05,560
Speaker 1: Fast Project twenty twenty five on YouTube, and if you

519
00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:09,240
Speaker 1: are more of a podcast person and not say a YouTuber,

520
00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:12,080
Speaker 1: you can hit play and put your phone in the

521
00:27:12,119 --> 00:27:15,200
Speaker 1: lock screen and it will play back just like a podcast.

522
00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:18,800
Speaker 1: All five episodes are online now. We need to educate

523
00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:22,440
Speaker 1: Americans on what Trump's second term would or could do

524
00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:25,440
Speaker 1: to this country, so please watch it and spread the word.

525
00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:32,680
Speaker 1: Jonathan Alter is the author of the substack Old Goats

526
00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:37,800
Speaker 1: and his latest book is called American Reckoning, Inside Trump's

527
00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:44,480
Speaker 1: Trial and My Own. Welcome to Fast Politics, Jonathan Alter.

528
00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:46,359
Speaker 5: How are you, Mollie.

529
00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:52,240
Speaker 1: Great to have you so, Jonathan, you are a legend.

530
00:27:52,960 --> 00:28:00,960
Speaker 1: You are longtime just journalist who's done everything written and everywhere,

531
00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:06,199
Speaker 1: has been covering this White House, covering the trial, and

532
00:28:06,280 --> 00:28:09,080
Speaker 1: now you have a new book I do.

533
00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:15,360
Speaker 5: It's called American Reckoning, Inside Trump's Trial and My Own.

534
00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:19,879
Speaker 5: So basically, Molly, as you say, I've been covering politics

535
00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:23,960
Speaker 5: for a really long time. This is my twelfth presidential campaign,

536
00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:29,960
Speaker 5: and I interviewed nine American presidents. But I started either before, during,

537
00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:34,040
Speaker 5: or after their presidencies. But I started having a kind

538
00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:38,040
Speaker 5: of a crisis of faith in the common sense of

539
00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:40,480
Speaker 5: the half of the American public.

540
00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:42,240
Speaker 3: And so I think when.

541
00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:45,120
Speaker 5: I say my trial, what I mean is the trial

542
00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:48,600
Speaker 5: the ordeal that so many of us have gone through

543
00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:53,400
Speaker 5: with this wicked man, Donald Trump, and he's shaken some

544
00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:56,520
Speaker 5: of my faith. So this is sort of how I

545
00:28:56,600 --> 00:29:00,920
Speaker 5: came to this idea of covering the trial. And I

546
00:29:01,040 --> 00:29:05,600
Speaker 5: was in the courtroom in Manhattan all twenty three days.

547
00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:08,320
Speaker 5: I was one of the only reporters who was there

548
00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:11,400
Speaker 5: for the duration of the trial, and I saw this

549
00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:15,120
Speaker 5: man from just a few feet away, you know, basically

550
00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:19,320
Speaker 5: all the time. You know, sometimes when I'd be sitting

551
00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:21,920
Speaker 5: on the aisle, you know, he'd walk past me in

552
00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:24,800
Speaker 5: and out of court, I'd be like three inches from him,

553
00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:28,200
Speaker 5: over and over and over again. Over the course of

554
00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:31,520
Speaker 5: his trial, I witnessed what I think has to be

555
00:29:31,720 --> 00:29:34,600
Speaker 5: considered one of the most dramatic moments of the twenty

556
00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:38,920
Speaker 5: first century, where a majority or person said guilty, guilty, guilty,

557
00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:43,880
Speaker 5: thirty four times. And this was the first ever trial

558
00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:47,720
Speaker 5: of the American President. And I wanted to be there

559
00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:51,600
Speaker 5: and see it and bear witness to it for very

560
00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:53,840
Speaker 5: personal reasons that I explained in the book.

561
00:29:54,160 --> 00:29:56,480
Speaker 1: So tell us some of those personal reasons.

562
00:29:56,960 --> 00:29:59,960
Speaker 5: Well, in twenty twenty three, I had this dream of

563
00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:04,800
Speaker 5: about my late father, and the dream was something about

564
00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:09,680
Speaker 5: my dad, cigarettes, vodka, and a gun. And I couldn't

565
00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:12,640
Speaker 5: really figure out what it was. And then I kind

566
00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:16,520
Speaker 5: of puzzled through why was I dreaming about Dad's cigarettes, vodka,

567
00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:19,239
Speaker 5: and a gun. And the reason was that he had

568
00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:22,120
Speaker 5: told me a story. Died about ten years ago when

569
00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:25,720
Speaker 5: he was shot down over Hungary during World War Two.

570
00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:29,719
Speaker 5: He was a navigator Bombedier on be twenty four, and

571
00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:35,160
Speaker 5: he was under orders to use his revolver to destroy

572
00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:39,160
Speaker 5: the Norden bomb site. Vombiteer it's used didn't work very well.

573
00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:42,400
Speaker 5: It was a primitive computer and it didn't work in

574
00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:44,560
Speaker 5: the cloud, so it didn't really help my dad very

575
00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:48,360
Speaker 5: much dropping bombs. But those were his orders. So when

576
00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:53,040
Speaker 5: they were shot down and made emergency landing, emptied his revolver,

577
00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:57,040
Speaker 5: his gun into the device, came out with his hands up,

578
00:30:57,080 --> 00:30:59,520
Speaker 5: and it turned out they were Russian Soviets, and they

579
00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:03,040
Speaker 5: spent the night at where they were shot down drinking

580
00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:08,720
Speaker 5: vodka with Soviets. They traded their disabled aircraft for partns

581
00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:11,640
Speaker 5: of cigarettes and safe passage back in your base. So

582
00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:13,720
Speaker 5: that's what the dream was about. But it got me

583
00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:19,920
Speaker 5: thinking about my father leaving Purdue University in nineteen forty two,

584
00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:23,560
Speaker 5: right after Pearl Harbor and enlisting and going to fight

585
00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:27,480
Speaker 5: for democracy. He goes away for more than three years

586
00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:30,959
Speaker 5: from home to fight for an idea for democracy, and

587
00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:33,640
Speaker 5: you know who else did that? Molly. George H. W.

588
00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:37,640
Speaker 5: Bush was the youngest pilot in the Navy, enlisted on

589
00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:40,760
Speaker 5: his eighteenth birthday, and when I was covering is a

590
00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:43,920
Speaker 5: nineteen eighty eight campaign, and there were a lot of

591
00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:48,440
Speaker 5: descriptions of his being shot down in the Pacific, and

592
00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:51,280
Speaker 5: at the time he said was asked, what were you

593
00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:53,880
Speaker 5: thinking about? And he said, I was thinking about Barbara

594
00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:56,360
Speaker 5: and where my next meal would come from, whether I'd

595
00:31:56,360 --> 00:31:58,840
Speaker 5: be rescued, which he was by submarine, and I was

596
00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:02,200
Speaker 5: thinking about the separation church in State. And we all

597
00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:06,240
Speaker 5: snickered at that, And I'm actually ashamed of having snickered

598
00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:09,800
Speaker 5: at that, because he really was going to fight for

599
00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:15,240
Speaker 5: the Constitution and for democracy. And so I said to myself, Okay,

600
00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:18,920
Speaker 5: your father went and risked his life for democracy. What

601
00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:21,400
Speaker 5: are you going to do to defend democracy?

602
00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:22,720
Speaker 3: What will you do?

603
00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:26,120
Speaker 5: How can you use your gills? Everybody has a different

604
00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:28,040
Speaker 5: role to play. You know, if you're a lawyer, you

605
00:32:28,120 --> 00:32:30,560
Speaker 5: needed to go to a battleground state and make sure

606
00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:33,160
Speaker 5: that you're there to you know, as a poll watcher

607
00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:37,320
Speaker 5: or troubleshooter, to make sure that Republicans are not preventing

608
00:32:37,360 --> 00:32:40,560
Speaker 5: people from voting. You know, if you're wealthier, you need

609
00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:43,080
Speaker 5: to give money. Everybody's got something that they can do.

610
00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:45,640
Speaker 5: And so I was sort of thinking, well, what can

611
00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:47,560
Speaker 5: I do I don't have to risk my life to

612
00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:50,760
Speaker 5: do it like Dad. And that then took me back

613
00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:53,720
Speaker 5: to an interview that I did with Richard Nixon. So

614
00:32:53,840 --> 00:32:56,520
Speaker 5: in nineteen eighty eight, I wanted to meet Nixon for

615
00:32:56,680 --> 00:32:59,560
Speaker 5: a quote. So I made arrangements for him to come

616
00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:04,160
Speaker 5: to new where I was then working in covering politics

617
00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:08,120
Speaker 5: and writing a column for twenty years, and Nixon came

618
00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:10,800
Speaker 5: in the fall of nineteen eighty eight. I asked him,

619
00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:15,320
Speaker 5: how will history remember Ronald Reagan? And he said, well,

620
00:33:15,520 --> 00:33:19,440
Speaker 5: you have to distinguish the great history and the historians, because.

621
00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:21,240
Speaker 3: The historians are like you. They're liberal.

622
00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:23,840
Speaker 5: It's you're a conservative, you go into business. If you're

623
00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:27,080
Speaker 5: a liberal, you write history or journalists. And in thinking

624
00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:30,000
Speaker 5: back on this, I realized that this man who had

625
00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:34,800
Speaker 5: been hate watching little boy Nixon had seeing me, had

626
00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:37,840
Speaker 5: my number. The only thing I bring is bearing witness,

627
00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:42,240
Speaker 5: using whatever I can do as a journalist to bear

628
00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:46,160
Speaker 5: witness and make a contribution that way. So that's a

629
00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:50,960
Speaker 5: very long winded explanation for why I wanted to cover

630
00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:53,400
Speaker 5: the trial. And first I tried to cover the you

631
00:33:53,440 --> 00:33:56,000
Speaker 5: know what I call the coup trial and Washington and

632
00:33:56,080 --> 00:33:58,920
Speaker 5: Jack Smith case, and then that, of course, was delayed

633
00:33:58,960 --> 00:34:03,320
Speaker 5: by the immunity question after I had been credentialed for it.

634
00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:06,800
Speaker 5: I got credentialed for Belanie trial in Manhattan through the

635
00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:11,000
Speaker 5: Washington Pumply magazine many years ago instarted writing articles for

636
00:34:11,080 --> 00:34:12,600
Speaker 5: the New York Times opinion section.

637
00:34:13,080 --> 00:34:18,480
Speaker 1: Was there I'm hoping you could explain to our listeners,

638
00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:23,279
Speaker 1: for example, in some ways, Trump is his own thing, right,

639
00:34:23,360 --> 00:34:27,960
Speaker 1: his own singular threat to American democracy that is in

640
00:34:28,040 --> 00:34:32,720
Speaker 1: itself unlike anything we've ever seen. That said, in some ways,

641
00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:35,760
Speaker 1: I mean, you can listen to Trump's speeches, not now

642
00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:39,239
Speaker 1: because he's so diminished, but in twenty sixteen, and you

643
00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:41,799
Speaker 1: could get two or three minutes where if you close

644
00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:46,239
Speaker 1: your eyes, you'd hear Richard Nixon right, and even with

645
00:34:46,440 --> 00:34:50,239
Speaker 1: Reagan right, make America great again. You know, the aspects

646
00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:56,759
Speaker 1: of performative politics, the belief in really in nothing, a

647
00:34:56,880 --> 00:35:00,439
Speaker 1: sort of nihilistic quest for power. What do you you think,

648
00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:03,040
Speaker 1: as someone who has covered politics for such a long time,

649
00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:08,840
Speaker 1: distinguishes Trump and Trumps from say, Newt Gandridge trying to

650
00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:10,719
Speaker 1: burn down the entire Congress.

651
00:35:11,160 --> 00:35:13,759
Speaker 5: Well, just to talk about Nixon for a second. So

652
00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:16,799
Speaker 5: there are some very clear comparisons. When I was in

653
00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:20,480
Speaker 5: the courtroom, you know, I realized that Watergate, a lot

654
00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:24,320
Speaker 5: of it was about finding hush money, right and paying

655
00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:28,120
Speaker 5: off the Watergate burglars with hush money, and Nixon approved

656
00:35:28,120 --> 00:35:28,960
Speaker 5: that cover up.

657
00:35:29,120 --> 00:35:30,640
Speaker 3: And you know the hush.

658
00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:33,520
Speaker 5: Money, well, Prump was basically the same thing. It was

659
00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:37,960
Speaker 5: Trump covering up Michael Phone's hush money view. So you know,

660
00:35:38,040 --> 00:35:41,200
Speaker 5: there are comparisons like that, and in some ways there

661
00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:46,000
Speaker 5: were elements of Watergate that were significantly worse. But Nixon,

662
00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:50,120
Speaker 5: even though he liked Trump, believed that politics was essentially

663
00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:54,160
Speaker 5: the mobilization of resentments. Nixon, you know, had his own

664
00:35:54,680 --> 00:35:58,120
Speaker 5: grievances that he nursed that were in some ways similar

665
00:35:58,200 --> 00:36:03,200
Speaker 5: to Trump's. And Nixon arguably committed more war crimes than

666
00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:08,040
Speaker 5: so wise he was worse. But when Nixon would play

667
00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:11,560
Speaker 5: the Wraith card, for instance, with his Southern strategy, he

668
00:36:11,800 --> 00:36:16,680
Speaker 5: and other politicians of the early sixties and seventies, they

669
00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:22,280
Speaker 5: used code words or dog whistles. Nixon's famous code word

670
00:36:22,480 --> 00:36:26,239
Speaker 5: in nineteen sixty eight was law and order. There's a

671
00:36:26,440 --> 00:36:31,920
Speaker 5: big difference between law and order. And they're eating dogs

672
00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:34,640
Speaker 5: and pets. You know, the Haitians are coming to get

673
00:36:34,680 --> 00:36:41,840
Speaker 5: you right. So Trump's racism is much much more raw, vicious,

674
00:36:41,880 --> 00:36:45,640
Speaker 5: and dangerous than anything that ever came out of Richard

675
00:36:45,760 --> 00:36:51,399
Speaker 5: Nixon's or George Wallace. Many Trump supporters are the either

676
00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:57,120
Speaker 5: elderly former Wallace supporders or the children of Walason. Wallace

677
00:36:57,239 --> 00:37:00,520
Speaker 5: ran twice with President nineteen sixty eight since them too,

678
00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:04,279
Speaker 5: and he didn't get as far as Trump, so you know,

679
00:37:04,320 --> 00:37:08,960
Speaker 5: he never was in serious danger of becoming president. So

680
00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:12,960
Speaker 5: we're actually a lot worse off in terms of a

681
00:37:13,040 --> 00:37:16,719
Speaker 5: racist demmagou now than we were at the height of

682
00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:21,760
Speaker 5: George Wallace. Right, So this is worse. And you talked

683
00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:25,000
Speaker 5: about these other you know, Nixon and Reagan.

684
00:37:24,719 --> 00:37:28,759
Speaker 1: Not nude gangrage, weaponizing the federal government against itself. But

685
00:37:28,920 --> 00:37:30,600
Speaker 1: I get where you're going with this. I want you

686
00:37:30,680 --> 00:37:34,560
Speaker 1: to sort of explain though, a little bit about you

687
00:37:34,600 --> 00:37:37,520
Speaker 1: were supposed to cover the Jack Smith trial. That trial

688
00:37:38,120 --> 00:37:41,319
Speaker 1: did not happen because of MAGA. Judge threw it out, right,

689
00:37:41,560 --> 00:37:46,360
Speaker 1: which is like pretty egregious that nothing happened. Then she

690
00:37:46,560 --> 00:37:48,160
Speaker 1: just threw it out and that was it.

691
00:37:48,360 --> 00:37:51,160
Speaker 5: Maybe someday that was not the trial that I was

692
00:37:51,200 --> 00:37:54,560
Speaker 5: potential to cover. That's the word to try with Eileen Cannon,

693
00:37:55,000 --> 00:37:58,160
Speaker 5: and she's a Trump lackey who threw that out. But

694
00:37:58,880 --> 00:38:02,200
Speaker 5: if Harris win, Jack Smith can go back and do

695
00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:05,080
Speaker 5: what he did in the Washington what I call the

696
00:38:05,120 --> 00:38:08,440
Speaker 5: coup trial, the big trial for trying to govern in

697
00:38:08,520 --> 00:38:11,319
Speaker 5: the documents case, he can go back and you know,

698
00:38:11,440 --> 00:38:14,839
Speaker 5: reindict Trump. If Harris wins. If Harris doesn't win, all

699
00:38:14,960 --> 00:38:17,640
Speaker 5: these cases all go away, all of them. By the way,

700
00:38:17,800 --> 00:38:20,000
Speaker 5: I thought at the time I wrote the book that

701
00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:24,319
Speaker 5: the Georgia and New York cases could possibly survive. But

702
00:38:24,719 --> 00:38:27,040
Speaker 5: I've been told by lawyers who would be wise to

703
00:38:27,080 --> 00:38:30,279
Speaker 5: getting rid of them to jump wins. But so they

704
00:38:30,280 --> 00:38:33,480
Speaker 5: can bring up the monologal documents another way, they can

705
00:38:33,520 --> 00:38:36,279
Speaker 5: Reindicke and so this is not an end of the

706
00:38:37,080 --> 00:38:41,640
Speaker 5: And tim shut in Washington was the big rial of

707
00:38:41,719 --> 00:38:45,600
Speaker 5: some trying to overcurrent the election that you know Jack

708
00:38:45,600 --> 00:38:49,000
Speaker 5: Smith is making progress on, and they carved out a

709
00:38:49,120 --> 00:38:53,399
Speaker 5: very compelling argument that would get past the Supreme Court

710
00:38:53,520 --> 00:38:57,600
Speaker 5: decision on immunity for official Act. And they are basically

711
00:38:57,640 --> 00:39:01,080
Speaker 5: going to argue next year if wins the election, and

712
00:39:01,120 --> 00:39:03,960
Speaker 5: they have a trial, which in all likelihood is Larry

713
00:39:03,960 --> 00:39:08,120
Speaker 5: tribesays in all likelihood there will be this mother of

714
00:39:08,280 --> 00:39:13,200
Speaker 5: all constitutional trials next year if Harris wins, because they've

715
00:39:13,239 --> 00:39:16,080
Speaker 5: been able to establish in their arguments that I think

716
00:39:16,120 --> 00:39:19,319
Speaker 5: even the Supreme Court will likely recognize that Trump was

717
00:39:19,320 --> 00:39:23,120
Speaker 5: acting as a candidate when he was telling Brad Rathensberger,

718
00:39:23,440 --> 00:39:26,160
Speaker 5: you know, I need eleven thousand, seven hundred rods. He

719
00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:30,359
Speaker 5: wasn't acting in his official capacity as president. So that's

720
00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:35,720
Speaker 5: what Supreme Court said. They drew this distinction official and unofficial,

721
00:39:35,920 --> 00:39:38,920
Speaker 5: and going to be very hard for Trump to argue

722
00:39:38,960 --> 00:39:42,000
Speaker 5: that his actions as a candidate were official. It will

723
00:39:42,040 --> 00:39:45,800
Speaker 5: mean that some of his conversations with lawyers who worked

724
00:39:45,800 --> 00:39:49,000
Speaker 5: in the White House will be carved out of this case,

725
00:39:49,160 --> 00:39:52,399
Speaker 5: in the same way that Hope Hicks his testimony from

726
00:39:52,440 --> 00:39:56,520
Speaker 5: when she was communication director, who was very incriminating testimony,

727
00:39:56,680 --> 00:40:00,600
Speaker 5: will be carved out of Trump's felony conviction in New York.

728
00:40:01,000 --> 00:40:04,880
Speaker 5: But there's enough other evidence that he will go down anyway,

729
00:40:04,920 --> 00:40:08,360
Speaker 5: and I believe that it will be held uphelding Yal, I mean.

730
00:40:08,239 --> 00:40:12,000
Speaker 1: Aren't you sort of horrified at the miscarriage of justice here, Like,

731
00:40:12,239 --> 00:40:17,080
Speaker 1: here's a guy who literally tried to overturn the election,

732
00:40:17,719 --> 00:40:21,239
Speaker 1: and he has managed to punt or get rid of

733
00:40:21,320 --> 00:40:24,600
Speaker 1: all of his cases, and now he is running for

734
00:40:24,800 --> 00:40:27,239
Speaker 1: president just like a normal candidate. I mean, doesn't that

735
00:40:27,280 --> 00:40:31,400
Speaker 1: strike you as like an incredible failing on the part

736
00:40:31,480 --> 00:40:32,840
Speaker 1: of the justice system.

737
00:40:33,200 --> 00:40:37,320
Speaker 5: Yes, broadly speaking, I deal with a lot in American reckoning,

738
00:40:38,080 --> 00:40:40,959
Speaker 5: and because when I say, you know, inside Trump's trial,

739
00:40:41,000 --> 00:40:44,200
Speaker 5: in my own my own reckoning is with having some

740
00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:48,319
Speaker 5: of my illusions about the American people, uh and the

741
00:40:48,440 --> 00:40:52,000
Speaker 5: justice system shaken. So I used to like to identify

742
00:40:52,040 --> 00:40:57,520
Speaker 5: myself as JFK called himself an idealist without illusions, and

743
00:40:57,600 --> 00:41:00,160
Speaker 5: I realized they had more illusions, maybe than I thought.

744
00:41:00,239 --> 00:41:02,200
Speaker 5: I think a lot of other people feel the same way.

745
00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:04,759
Speaker 5: But when you say that he got away with it,

746
00:41:04,880 --> 00:41:08,400
Speaker 5: he did not. In the felony case, He's going to

747
00:41:08,440 --> 00:41:12,800
Speaker 5: this election as a convicted felon and he's awaiting sentencing.

748
00:41:13,160 --> 00:41:16,560
Speaker 5: On November twenty sixth, and for reasons that related to

749
00:41:16,600 --> 00:41:20,719
Speaker 5: the immunity decision, Judge Wan Mshan delayed sentencing, but he

750
00:41:20,760 --> 00:41:24,319
Speaker 5: didn't eliminate sentencing. He will be sentenced, and I think

751
00:41:24,360 --> 00:41:26,560
Speaker 5: there's a decent chance that he will be sentenced to

752
00:41:27,440 --> 00:41:30,600
Speaker 5: short jail time in a country club jail at the

753
00:41:30,680 --> 00:41:33,680
Speaker 5: end of November, so you know, he won't start serving

754
00:41:33,719 --> 00:41:36,720
Speaker 5: that sentence until his appeals are exhausted, but he will

755
00:41:36,719 --> 00:41:40,120
Speaker 5: be sentenced. So the idea that the criminal justice system,

756
00:41:40,200 --> 00:41:44,399
Speaker 5: you know, completely failed, I don't think is accurate. And

757
00:41:44,440 --> 00:41:49,160
Speaker 5: we saw basic accountability on May thirtieth when that Jerry

758
00:41:49,239 --> 00:41:52,799
Speaker 5: Ford person said guilty thirty four times, and this was

759
00:41:52,840 --> 00:41:56,360
Speaker 5: a very gratifying moment. It should be seen as a

760
00:41:56,400 --> 00:42:00,239
Speaker 5: gratifying moment, and I think it is very much part

761
00:42:00,239 --> 00:42:03,440
Speaker 5: of the subtext of this campaign or even the text

762
00:42:03,440 --> 00:42:07,080
Speaker 5: of it. So as the Hutchinson, the former Republican governor

763
00:42:07,080 --> 00:42:10,479
Speaker 5: of Arkansas, that he cannot vote for Donald Trump because

764
00:42:10,480 --> 00:42:14,360
Speaker 5: he's the convicted fela and tom La Harris as the prosecutor,

765
00:42:14,520 --> 00:42:18,640
Speaker 5: has framed this election in part as prosecutor versus perp

766
00:42:19,000 --> 00:42:21,960
Speaker 5: and that's one of the reasons she's doing well, is

767
00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:25,160
Speaker 5: that he is a convicted felon. That very much helps

768
00:42:25,280 --> 00:42:26,240
Speaker 5: the Aras campaign.

769
00:42:26,560 --> 00:42:28,520
Speaker 1: Do you have something you want to tell us about

770
00:42:28,520 --> 00:42:32,279
Speaker 1: in the book that is sort of new that you're

771
00:42:32,360 --> 00:42:33,120
Speaker 1: excited about.

772
00:42:33,600 --> 00:42:35,719
Speaker 5: Yeah, there's a lot that's new in the book about

773
00:42:35,719 --> 00:42:40,520
Speaker 5: what happened inside that surreal courtroom where the trial wasn't televised,

774
00:42:40,640 --> 00:42:43,840
Speaker 5: so people who were not there got only a tiny

775
00:42:44,040 --> 00:42:47,279
Speaker 5: bit of just the barest headlines of what it was

776
00:42:47,320 --> 00:42:49,680
Speaker 5: actually like inside the courtroom. So there's a lot of

777
00:42:49,760 --> 00:42:51,799
Speaker 5: new stuff about that. But then I also have a

778
00:42:51,840 --> 00:42:56,520
Speaker 5: section called black Swan Summer, which is about how Nancy

779
00:42:56,600 --> 00:43:02,080
Speaker 5: Pelosi maneuvered Joe Biden off the ticket, and as she said,

780
00:43:02,160 --> 00:43:05,480
Speaker 5: she will go to her grave without describing exactly what

781
00:43:05,600 --> 00:43:07,960
Speaker 5: she and Biden talked about, but I got the outlines

782
00:43:08,000 --> 00:43:10,799
Speaker 5: of it and more about it than anybody has so far,

783
00:43:10,840 --> 00:43:15,239
Speaker 5: including Bob Woodward with his Tony Blinken story. So basically

784
00:43:15,600 --> 00:43:20,680
Speaker 5: what happened was that after the June twenty seventh debate,

785
00:43:21,120 --> 00:43:25,640
Speaker 5: at first Alosi thought it was survivable, as she said publicly,

786
00:43:25,719 --> 00:43:29,080
Speaker 5: but then she started seeing polls from House members and

787
00:43:29,120 --> 00:43:31,839
Speaker 5: their race as House members who were expected to win,

788
00:43:32,400 --> 00:43:34,480
Speaker 5: and they were in deep trouble. And what she really

789
00:43:34,480 --> 00:43:38,319
Speaker 5: cares about is the House, right, She's an institutional, So

790
00:43:38,920 --> 00:43:42,759
Speaker 5: she made a secret visit to the White House to

791
00:43:42,800 --> 00:43:46,000
Speaker 5: see her friend of forty years, Joe Biden. Not on

792
00:43:46,080 --> 00:43:50,040
Speaker 5: any log the existence of the trip, I revealed for

793
00:43:50,080 --> 00:43:52,880
Speaker 5: the first time. She did not show him any of

794
00:43:52,960 --> 00:43:56,200
Speaker 5: those polls. She did not say, Joe, it's time to go.

795
00:43:56,719 --> 00:44:00,600
Speaker 5: She said, I'm here for you, Joe, hear for you.

796
00:44:00,680 --> 00:44:04,400
Speaker 5: I know this is a difficult time. Let's talk. Let's talk.

797
00:44:04,440 --> 00:44:07,799
Speaker 5: And then that led to a series of conversations on

798
00:44:07,880 --> 00:44:12,480
Speaker 5: the telephone, the upshot of which was, as somebody very

799
00:44:12,480 --> 00:44:15,319
Speaker 5: close to Pelosi told me, she can cut off your

800
00:44:15,360 --> 00:44:18,080
Speaker 5: head and you won't even know it. And what she

801
00:44:18,200 --> 00:44:22,880
Speaker 5: did was she began the process of getting him to

802
00:44:22,920 --> 00:44:26,080
Speaker 5: think about it, and then she pressured him on Morning

803
00:44:26,160 --> 00:44:29,080
Speaker 5: Joe on July tenth, which when she said that he

804
00:44:29,160 --> 00:44:31,600
Speaker 5: hadn't made a decision yet, when he actually had made

805
00:44:31,600 --> 00:44:36,680
Speaker 5: a decision, which was strong. That then ignored everybody else

806
00:44:36,719 --> 00:44:40,000
Speaker 5: in the Democratic Party that they could start pressuring him,

807
00:44:40,040 --> 00:44:44,200
Speaker 5: the donors and everybody else. But she was annoyed at

808
00:44:44,239 --> 00:44:51,640
Speaker 5: that moment, even resentful of the men, meaning Clinton, Obama, Jeffreys, Schumer,

809
00:44:51,960 --> 00:44:55,520
Speaker 5: and she thought the men were quote m Ia, and

810
00:44:56,000 --> 00:45:01,400
Speaker 5: she wondered, why are my the only blow by fingerprints

811
00:45:01,480 --> 00:45:02,400
Speaker 5: on the knife.

812
00:45:02,600 --> 00:45:03,560
Speaker 3: This is pretty.

813
00:45:03,320 --> 00:45:07,640
Speaker 5: Dramatic stuff that she pulled off, this feat, this brilliant,

814
00:45:08,239 --> 00:45:12,680
Speaker 5: brilliant political feat, until she was joined a week later

815
00:45:13,200 --> 00:45:17,040
Speaker 5: by the men who eventually got in gear and showed

816
00:45:17,320 --> 00:45:21,719
Speaker 5: Biden the bad polling. Initially she had to launch this

817
00:45:21,920 --> 00:45:24,040
Speaker 5: historic effort to get him off the ticket. And then

818
00:45:24,040 --> 00:45:26,719
Speaker 5: I also learned from somebody very close to Biden that

819
00:45:26,880 --> 00:45:30,520
Speaker 5: COVID was the last straw, that without COVID, he probably

820
00:45:30,520 --> 00:45:32,600
Speaker 5: would have toughed it out, run out the clock, and

821
00:45:32,680 --> 00:45:35,080
Speaker 5: he would be the nominee right now, head a certain

822
00:45:35,120 --> 00:45:38,040
Speaker 5: defeat when he got COVID and he saw that split

823
00:45:38,120 --> 00:45:43,320
Speaker 5: screen of Trump and him getting off the airplane coughing,

824
00:45:43,440 --> 00:45:46,919
Speaker 5: and he realized that he had to seriously consider whether

825
00:45:46,960 --> 00:45:48,400
Speaker 5: it's step down from the ticket.

826
00:45:48,600 --> 00:45:54,080
Speaker 1: Jonathan, this is so incredibly important and fascinating. We will

827
00:45:54,239 --> 00:45:57,759
Speaker 1: all be just digging in this book. Thank you, thank you,

828
00:45:57,920 --> 00:45:59,239
Speaker 1: thank you, thank.

829
00:45:58,960 --> 00:46:04,759
Speaker 5: You, thanks much for having me. Malia, no moment.

830
00:46:04,520 --> 00:46:10,840
Speaker 2: Cofecly Jesse Kennon Maley Jung fasts. So I'm going to

831
00:46:10,920 --> 00:46:13,760
Speaker 2: shock you here. Seems like the right wing was trying

832
00:46:13,760 --> 00:46:15,640
Speaker 2: to smear to Wall. So it's a day ending and

833
00:46:15,680 --> 00:46:16,680
Speaker 2: why what do you see here?

834
00:46:17,000 --> 00:46:23,799
Speaker 1: So they had this account which was more recent was

835
00:46:23,880 --> 00:46:28,960
Speaker 1: recently known as the ABC quote unquote whistleblower Hoaxter. So

836
00:46:29,200 --> 00:46:32,600
Speaker 1: a far right account on acts, the one that had

837
00:46:33,480 --> 00:46:37,839
Speaker 1: the handle is called doc net YouTube, which sounds very,

838
00:46:38,000 --> 00:46:43,080
Speaker 1: very very legit had a lengthy post over the weekend

839
00:46:43,640 --> 00:46:46,719
Speaker 1: that they had received information that Walls had an inappropriate

840
00:46:46,719 --> 00:46:50,239
Speaker 1: relationship with the minor. This account had previously blown up

841
00:46:50,239 --> 00:46:53,799
Speaker 1: for its claims that ABC had a whistleblower proving that

842
00:46:54,040 --> 00:46:58,319
Speaker 1: President Vice President Harris had gotten the questions before the debate. Well,

843
00:46:58,320 --> 00:47:03,839
Speaker 1: the proof never materialized. Numerous politicians, including MTG Donald Trump,

844
00:47:03,960 --> 00:47:08,319
Speaker 1: jumped on the story. So I'm gonna go with that

845
00:47:08,480 --> 00:47:13,000
Speaker 1: this is not true, And in fact, we know it's

846
00:47:13,080 --> 00:47:18,200
Speaker 1: not true because, as noted by numerous users, the dates

847
00:47:18,200 --> 00:47:20,799
Speaker 1: at the top of the email are inconsistent. Well, some

848
00:47:20,880 --> 00:47:27,319
Speaker 1: correctly feature commas, others didn't, indicating that the emails are fabricated. Ironically,

849
00:47:27,400 --> 00:47:32,080
Speaker 1: another popular account known as Agent Self FBI first identified

850
00:47:32,120 --> 00:47:37,640
Speaker 1: the user errors. So it's just a completely silly made

851
00:47:37,719 --> 00:47:41,360
Speaker 1: up thing. An anonymous X account made it up. But

852
00:47:41,480 --> 00:47:44,280
Speaker 1: you know X is now a place for fake news,

853
00:47:44,360 --> 00:47:47,440
Speaker 1: and the right runs with fake news whether or not.

854
00:47:47,600 --> 00:47:48,480
Speaker 1: It's trail.

855
00:47:49,200 --> 00:47:50,239
Speaker 2: That sounds about right.

856
00:47:50,760 --> 00:47:54,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, So that in itself is our moment of fuckery.

857
00:47:54,600 --> 00:47:59,759
Speaker 1: Doctor net YouTube on X and X's crazy miss Him

858
00:47:59,760 --> 00:48:05,160
Speaker 1: from Flooding is our moment of fuckery. That's it for

859
00:48:05,239 --> 00:48:11,560
Speaker 1: this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in every Monday, Wednesday, Thursday,

860
00:48:12,040 --> 00:48:15,960
Speaker 1: and Saturday to hear the best minds in politics make

861
00:48:16,080 --> 00:48:20,000
Speaker 1: sense of all the chaos. If you enjoyed this podcast,

862
00:48:20,040 --> 00:48:22,719
Speaker 1: please send it to a friend or an enemy and

863
00:48:22,880 --> 00:48:24,280
Speaker 1: keep the conversation going