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Speaker 1: If you have your own story of being in a

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Speaker 1: cult or a high control group.

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Speaker 2: Or if you've had experience with manipulation or abuse the

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Speaker 2: power that you'd like to share.

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Speaker 1: Leave us a message on our hotline number at three

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Speaker 1: four seven eight six trust.

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Speaker 2: That's three four seven eight six eight seven eight seven eight.

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Speaker 1: Or showed us an email at trustmepod at gmail dot com.

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Speaker 3: Trust me, trust you, Trust me. I'm like a squat person.

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Speaker 3: I've never lived. To you, I've never a live.

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Speaker 2: If you think that one person has all the answers,

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Speaker 2: don't welcome to trust Me. The podcast about cults, extreme

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Speaker 2: belief and manipulation from two suppressive people who've actually experienced it.

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Speaker 2: I'm Lola Blanc.

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Speaker 4: And I'm Megan Elizabeth.

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Speaker 2: Today our guest is Genmuscavage, former Scientology c ORG member

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Speaker 2: and niece of current Scientology leader David miss Gavage. In

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Speaker 2: part one today, she'll tell us about how her grandparents

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Speaker 2: and then parents became scientologists and what it was like

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Speaker 2: growing up in the infamous Sea organization. She'll tell us

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Speaker 2: about the child labor she was forced to do in

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Speaker 2: a place for children called the Ranch, the strong snitching

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Speaker 2: culture there, and the knowledge reports that made it hard

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Speaker 2: to trust anyone.

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Speaker 4: Snitches do not get stitches.

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Speaker 1: In Scientology, we'll hear about the bizarre educational system that

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Speaker 1: punished kids every time they didn't know a word, the

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Speaker 1: fear of Scientology stoked in her of the outside world,

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Speaker 1: and what her relationship with her uncle was like when

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Speaker 1: she was growing up.

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Speaker 2: And next week we will discuss Shelley and whether she

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Speaker 2: thinks Shelley is okay before we get into it with

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Speaker 2: Jenna Meghan. A couple things to talk about today that

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Speaker 2: I guess we'll just discuss together.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, let's do it.

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Speaker 2: So we should quickly note maybe Scientology update.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, cultiest thing of the week.

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Speaker 1: We'll just call some stuff going on in Scientology that

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Speaker 1: you can't really escape from. If you're reading the news,

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Speaker 1: Danny Masterson has gone to prison for thirty years for rape.

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Speaker 1: Scientology was defending him the entire time his wife.

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Speaker 2: Biju or Bijou Phillips, His wife.

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Speaker 4: Recently filed for divorce.

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Speaker 1: This is because Danny has just been called a suppressive person.

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Speaker 1: So to keep this zitting him in jail, she has

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Speaker 1: a daughter with him. She cannot be a Scientologist. She

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Speaker 1: has to leave the group or she just hates Scientology

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Speaker 1: and him and won't go visit him. I have no idea.

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Speaker 1: I'm assuming she'll visit him.

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Speaker 2: But basically, like Scientology had his back and was like

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Speaker 2: really really behind him this whole time, trying to get

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Speaker 2: him off, and it wasn't until he was found guilty

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Speaker 2: that they labeled him a suppressive person, even though they

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Speaker 2: knew the evidence the whole time, because their lawyers were

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Speaker 2: on the case. I mean, it only mattered once it

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Speaker 2: made them look bad up until that point. Rape allegations.

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Speaker 4: Who cares well.

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Speaker 1: The people who were alleging rape were in Scientology, so

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Speaker 1: they were using their own techniques against them, like you're

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Speaker 1: going to be a suppressive person, like this isn't trauma,

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Speaker 1: talking like this isn't like it's just a nightmare.

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Speaker 4: So that's going on in Scientology.

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Speaker 1: It's interesting because in the group there's a lot of

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Speaker 1: different feelings about it. Some people are super mad that

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Speaker 1: Scientology is calling him a suppressive person instead of sticking

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Speaker 1: by him and saying he didn't do these things after

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Speaker 1: they spent so much money defending him and people getting

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Speaker 1: so invested. Other people are like, you called my dad

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Speaker 1: a suppressive person because he did something stupid, and yet

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Speaker 1: you defended this man till the end of time for

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Speaker 1: raping all these women. So it's causing some in group

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Speaker 1: fighting from what I've heard from a friend with family inside.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I wonder how many people will maybe have a

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Speaker 2: little seed of doubt planted after this situation, because I

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Speaker 2: know that if the church that I devoted my life

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Speaker 2: to was like vehemently backing someone with multiple, very credible

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Speaker 2: rape allegations, I would be like, huh, that's weird.

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Speaker 1: Well, you might be like, of course we are because

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Speaker 1: he's innocent, But then as soon as he's found guilty

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Speaker 1: and they're like, yeah, he's suppressive, he was guilty, you'd

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Speaker 1: be like, wait.

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Speaker 2: Why did you do that this whole time? What was

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Speaker 2: that actually about? Like, yeah, it'll be interesting to see

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Speaker 2: if anyone sort of emerges after that, but you know,

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Speaker 2: it takes time, so who knows.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, agreed, It'll be interesting to see what comes of it.

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Speaker 2: Agreed. And then in other cult news, there has been

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Speaker 2: an article about the group that you grew up in.

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Speaker 2: You want to talk about that for a second.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, The BBC just released an article.

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Speaker 2: The title is Robert Corfield, ex Minister of Secretive sect

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Speaker 2: admits to child sex abuse.

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Speaker 4: Yes, so this is on the BBC.

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Speaker 1: It went viral on x apparently, so that's a pretty

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Speaker 1: big deal Twitter.

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Speaker 2: I cannot think of it as that.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah, uh huh.

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Speaker 1: And basically it's one of the ministers in the two

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Speaker 1: y two church just saying, yeah, I raped a kid

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Speaker 1: and yeah, this other person helped me cover it up,

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Speaker 1: but I said sorry to God and everything's cool.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: In the article, it talks about how this man reported

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Speaker 2: himself to his leader, who did absolutely nothing, and then

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Speaker 2: there is another story in the article about a different leader.

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Speaker 1: What happened was the worker who did the sexual assault

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Speaker 1: reported himself to an overseer, and then that overseer, I believe,

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Speaker 1: beat up the victim that had come forward about the

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Speaker 1: worker abusing him.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a quote from a guy who says that

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Speaker 2: he reported his sexual abuse and after he reported it,

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Speaker 2: this overseer quote grabbed my shoulders, yelling at me, slamming

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Speaker 2: my head against a concrete pillar, splitting it open and

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Speaker 2: causing it to bleed. That was because the guy thought

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Speaker 2: he had told someone that he'd been sexually abused. I mean,

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Speaker 2: this is like, it's very crazy stuff.

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Speaker 1: It's a really really dark story and unfortunately it's just

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Speaker 1: echoes of what's happened multiple times. If you want to

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Speaker 1: look up that Ira Hobbes story, he almost killed one

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Speaker 1: of his victims and he was an overseer. So again,

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Speaker 1: still a lot of good people stuck in this mess,

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Speaker 1: and hopefully they will be reading this article. Yeah, it's

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Speaker 1: really heartbreaking and it's nice to see it finally getting

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Speaker 1: the attention it deserves because this no name that it has.

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Speaker 1: You know, we're calling it the two by twos, but

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Speaker 1: they never call it that. They call it nothing. It

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Speaker 1: has no name, so it's been able to go so

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Speaker 1: undetected for so long. I do wish this article would

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Speaker 1: have said two by twos in it, which it doesn't.

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Speaker 1: It just calls it the Church with no Name.

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Speaker 2: I think it says it's often referred to as the

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Speaker 2: Truth or the Way, which you've said, but everyone's kind

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Speaker 2: of calling it the two by twos right now, right right?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, Yeah, I.

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Speaker 1: Hope everybody can get on the same page that they

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Speaker 1: are all the same thing, and it's pretty fucked up.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, thank god for that hotline that yes,

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Speaker 2: those people set up that resource.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, Cynthia Sherry and foreign.

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Speaker 2: Thank you indeed, well, speaking of.

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Speaker 4: Crazy ass religion.

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Speaker 2: Should we talk to Jenna now?

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Speaker 4: Yes, please trust me. Sponsored by zachdoc.

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Speaker 1: It's absolutely exhausting, and this is such an easier way

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Speaker 2: That's ZocDoc dot com slash trust me, ZocDoc dot com

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Speaker 2: slash trust me. Welcome Jennimen Scavage to trust me.

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Speaker 3: Thank you, thanks for having me.

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Speaker 2: I want to start with the kind of history of

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Speaker 2: your family. Both of your parents were born into scientology.

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Speaker 2: Is that right?

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Speaker 3: They weren't born into it. They got into it like

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Speaker 3: a little bit later in their teen years.

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Speaker 2: Okay, how did they end up joining?

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Speaker 3: So on my dad's side, my grandfather like just became

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Speaker 3: interested in it. He had a local church in his

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Speaker 3: area and he started like taking some communication courses and

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Speaker 3: he felt like it made him a better salesman and

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Speaker 3: he started being more successful at his job, and so

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Speaker 3: soon he was like introducing other people there, and that's

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Speaker 3: sort of how he came me.

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Speaker 4: You're already kind of convincing me.

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Speaker 3: Okay, Well that's how it works. Yeah, Yeah, it starts out,

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Speaker 3: you know, sitting something you need a little help with

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Speaker 3: and you know, find your bill that need. Yeah, so

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Speaker 3: well I can tell you my mom's side. Ye, her mother,

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Speaker 3: I believe got into gnetic like maybe she picked it

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Speaker 3: up at a books door and maybe also because she

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Speaker 3: was like a literary person, she like was into some

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Speaker 3: of the science fiction as well from al Ron Hubbard.

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Speaker 3: I think that's how they got into it. And then

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Speaker 3: they started taking like communication courses at the local church

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Speaker 3: there as well.

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Speaker 2: Your grandparents were kind of like dabbling in it more so,

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Speaker 2: and then your parents were the ones who kind of

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Speaker 2: dove in head first.

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Speaker 3: Uh No, Actually, my grandparents like fully got into it.

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Speaker 3: Then my parents were kids and then sort of got

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Speaker 3: dragged along. So like when on my father's side, my

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Speaker 3: grandfather he like up and moved the entire family to

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Speaker 3: England where there was the church there, Saint Hill, and

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Speaker 3: they all moved there and were sort of being full

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Speaker 3: time in scientology when my dad, I think was probably

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Speaker 3: like fifteen or sixteen.

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Speaker 2: I see, I see, Okay, thank you for clarifying that.

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Speaker 2: So the leader of SCIENTI is your uncle David. So

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Speaker 2: your dad and David were both kind of getting into

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Speaker 2: it at the same time.

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Speaker 3: Like what was that process, right, So, like, I'm not

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Speaker 3: like an expert in this, but I'll tell you to

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Speaker 3: the best of what I remember, just because I wasn't

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Speaker 3: alive at that time. But they were in school in Philly,

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Speaker 3: and Dave is younger than my dad. He had asthma.

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Speaker 3: I think that my grandpa really felt that scientology or

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Speaker 3: dynetics helped him with that. It's like sort of a

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Speaker 3: precursor to scientology. Scientology is more is more like spiritual,

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Speaker 3: and dynetics is more like physical. Like it deals with

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Speaker 3: painful memories that are impacting you in your everyday life,

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Speaker 3: and they believe that these memories can sort of have

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Speaker 3: like a direct impact on you physically with like like sickness,

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Speaker 3: psychosomatic illnesses and that sort of thing.

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Speaker 4: So he's doing that with David's.

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Speaker 2: As right, Yeah, exactly, and he felt that it was

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Speaker 2: helping his asthma.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. I think that he says that he that it

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Speaker 3: cured it. And you know, between that and his new

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Speaker 3: success with his job and like supposedly his company like said, oh, well,

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Speaker 3: Ron's doing so much better, we need to send everyone

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Speaker 3: there to do a communication course. And so I just

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Speaker 3: think that you know, gave him a community gave him

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Speaker 3: some answers that he was looking for. He told me

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Speaker 3: that he was always looking for answers, like what more

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Speaker 3: there is to life? He was like looking for more. So, yeah,

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Speaker 3: I think it provided that for him.

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Speaker 2: So, while your uncle is sort of rising the ranks

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Speaker 2: over there, you were a member in your own family.

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Speaker 2: Can you talk about the early years of that for you.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So my parents had been in the sea Org,

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Speaker 3: which is the part of scientology that manages all of

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Speaker 3: the rest of scientology. It's a certain group. It's like

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Speaker 3: a military esque organization. All the members like live in

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Speaker 3: in church quarters, they eat there, They work seven days

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Speaker 3: a week, you know, they work all ungodly hours of

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Speaker 3: the day. They signed one billion year contracts. At this point,

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Speaker 3: they're not allowed to have children anymore. They were early on.

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Speaker 3: So my parents were members of that group before I

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Speaker 3: was born and had left and then rejoined when I

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Speaker 3: was two, So they were just re recruited in and

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Speaker 3: I was basically two, so I came with them. And

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Speaker 3: so kids of Seorg members are put into what is

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Speaker 3: called the Cadet Org, which you're considered basically a Seerorg

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Speaker 3: member in training and you're sort of like out of

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Speaker 3: the way of your parents. You spend most of your

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Speaker 3: time at the cadet or wherever that is.

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Speaker 2: You were in that from the age of two or

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Speaker 2: when does that?

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Speaker 3: Yeah?

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Speaker 1: From when I was two, Holy moly, And so so

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Speaker 1: you kind of are like, I'm in the sea.

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Speaker 3: Org.

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Speaker 1: This rule comes along that your members can't have children,

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Speaker 1: so you don't even do you not even think about that?

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Speaker 1: I think you said you were seven when you signed

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Speaker 1: your billionaiere contract. That's a lot for a seven year

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Speaker 1: old to be thinking about.

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Speaker 3: Right for sure? Yeah, I mean I think that when

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Speaker 3: I was four the rule change where see, your members

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Speaker 3: could not have kids anymore. And also there was like

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Speaker 3: a certain amount of family time we would get each

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Speaker 3: day where we would see our parents for like an

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Speaker 3: hour or so, and then that was canceled and it

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Speaker 3: just became where we would see them like for a

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Speaker 3: few hours on either Sunday or Saturday morning. So I

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Speaker 3: mean at that time I was too young to care

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Speaker 3: or even know about wanting to have kids, right, Definitely

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Speaker 3: something I thought about later on.

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Speaker 2: So before this rule, from what I was reading in

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Speaker 2: your book, your parents were on duty fourteen hours a day,

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Speaker 2: seven days a week. But they get this one hour

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Speaker 2: of family time a day in the evening, and then

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Speaker 2: after this that's gone now on duty all day every day,

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Speaker 2: with like a few hour window on the weekends, and

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Speaker 2: that is the only time that you get to spend

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Speaker 2: with them.

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Speaker 3: Basically, yeah, that's right. And even before that, my mom

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Speaker 3: was gone for six months at a time several times

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Speaker 3: because she was working on a project for one of

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Speaker 3: the sea or cruise ships where she was like getting

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Speaker 3: it built and getting the fundraising done for it. So

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Speaker 3: I actually didn't so it was just my dad for

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Speaker 3: a while.

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Speaker 2: What exactly are people doing? I mean, we can speak

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Speaker 2: to your adult experience, but your mom was organizing this

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Speaker 2: cruise ship. Generally speaking, what does the Sea org do?

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Speaker 3: So in scientology, there's different like training levels and counseling

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Speaker 3: levels that you study or that you receive counseling on,

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Speaker 3: and there's like a like all these steps. You start

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Speaker 3: at the bottom and you go to the top. It's

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Speaker 3: called the bridge to total freedom. Everyone starts on the

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Speaker 3: bottom and progresses from there step by step to the top.

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Speaker 3: So the Sea Organization is responsible for delivering the higher

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Speaker 3: the highest levels of this bridge. And it's basically just

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Speaker 3: like a counseling training mixture that they deliver in their

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Speaker 3: specialized classrooms. And that's what the SEA org does. Those

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Speaker 3: levels are like confidential until you're actually doing them. And

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Speaker 3: then outside of that, the se York manages all of Scientology.

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Speaker 4: Oh but they have a lot of power then.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, they're like the highest ranking Scientology organization. So like

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Speaker 3: the international management of Scientology is all SEA ORG members.

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Speaker 2: If you're just regular Scientology member, you can never advance

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Speaker 2: as much as you can advance if you don't join

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Speaker 2: the Sea Org.

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Speaker 3: No, sorry, maybe I explained that wrong. You can definitely

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Speaker 3: do that. It's more that you can only get that

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Speaker 3: those high levels delivered to you at a SEA ORG

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Speaker 3: base see organization place. I see. Yeah. So there's other

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Speaker 3: like lower level Scientology service orgs that are not Sea

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Speaker 3: Org and they can deliver like maybe halfway up that

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Speaker 3: bridge to total freedom, but only the Sea Org can

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Speaker 3: deliver the upper part of it.

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Speaker 2: What happens when you achieve total freedom?

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Speaker 3: Oh?

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Speaker 4: What is total freedom?

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Speaker 2: Oh?

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Speaker 3: My goodness, such a big question. I mean, I I

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00:16:24,080 --> 00:16:27,720
Speaker 3: mean I feel like, so, you know, in scientology they

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00:16:27,760 --> 00:16:32,520
Speaker 3: believe that we are all spiritual beings called Theatan's. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: that from a volcano, correct, right, Yeah, but you don't

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00:16:35,920 --> 00:16:41,520
Speaker 3: know about that until like, oops, till way later. So

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Speaker 3: I never knew about that when I was in scientology.

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00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:47,040
Speaker 3: I learned about it from South Park. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, so the Park kind of blew the lid off,

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Speaker 1: like the final thing that people like, some of the

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Speaker 1: lessons that they get.

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Speaker 3: The big secret.

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Speaker 4: I mean, did that affect people at all?

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Speaker 1: Let's go back to what we were talking about in

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Speaker 1: a second, But like, no, did that ruin it for

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Speaker 1: some people?

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Speaker 4: Were they like, oh, this is that's it? This is it? Yeah,

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Speaker 4: and South Park knows it.

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Speaker 1: Well.

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Speaker 3: I wasn't in when that came out. I don't think.

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Speaker 3: Actually maybe it did, but I didn't watch it or

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00:17:17,240 --> 00:17:20,120
Speaker 3: know about it until after I was out. And this year,

352
00:17:20,160 --> 00:17:22,119
Speaker 3: you don't watch TV, you don't have a cell phone,

353
00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:26,199
Speaker 3: like I didn't have access to the internet, like everything,

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00:17:26,560 --> 00:17:29,480
Speaker 3: like everything I did was just policed all the time,

355
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Speaker 3: you know, so even like to the point of you know,

356
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Speaker 3: there's like a really strong snitching culture where you're supposed

357
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Speaker 3: to report on other people otherwise you get in trouble

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Speaker 3: and you report on yourself all the time because you

359
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Speaker 3: think that if you don't then you're endangering your own

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Speaker 3: personal freedom or well being so so that there's no

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Speaker 3: way to really have access to that. But like you

362
00:17:54,800 --> 00:17:56,560
Speaker 3: are sort of brought up on the idea that if

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00:17:56,600 --> 00:18:00,360
Speaker 3: you do learn about those secrets before you're ready for them,

364
00:18:00,680 --> 00:18:05,600
Speaker 3: that you can you'll be like mentally like damaged permanently,

365
00:18:05,920 --> 00:18:09,159
Speaker 3: like something really bad will happen to you, and that

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Speaker 3: Like before I watched it, I was like, okay, Like

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Speaker 3: it was scary.

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Speaker 2: Wow, Like it'll rip your reality open, and that will like.

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00:18:17,520 --> 00:18:19,960
Speaker 1: Almost like an electricity that your body's not ready for

370
00:18:20,119 --> 00:18:22,840
Speaker 1: or something like it's too high, preperational.

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Speaker 3: Or overwhelmed you. Like we never got the exact specifics

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Speaker 3: on why that would happen, right, but just that it would,

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Speaker 3: So it was like really scary. Even though I wasn't

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Speaker 3: a believer by the time that I watched it, I

375
00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:34,920
Speaker 3: was still like, of.

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Speaker 2: Course, yeah, yeah, that's such a good tactic for people

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Speaker 2: for preventing people from seeking out information about their group

378
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Speaker 2: if they're curious or questioning or whatever.

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Speaker 1: If you, I mean, you can't hear the next level

380
00:18:48,160 --> 00:18:49,919
Speaker 1: of information, you'll like fry yourself.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, reversible.

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00:18:53,080 --> 00:18:55,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, You're like, okay, can I get me m dr

383
00:18:56,040 --> 00:18:57,760
Speaker 1: for that, I guess I'll just stay at my level.

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Speaker 2: Then.

385
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Speaker 4: Trust Me is sponsored by Better Help.

386
00:19:04,720 --> 00:19:06,680
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387
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388
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389
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390
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391
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394
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395
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396
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397
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407
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411
00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:10,439
Speaker 1: Okay, so you were you were explaining total freedom. Apologies,

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00:20:10,440 --> 00:20:14,679
Speaker 1: we got we got a little sidetracked. But Thetans uh yes.

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00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:17,600
Speaker 3: Right, So a thetan is just it's it's you as

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00:20:17,640 --> 00:20:21,120
Speaker 3: the person. You're not your body, and you inhabit bodies

415
00:20:21,280 --> 00:20:24,080
Speaker 3: lifetime after lifetime. If your body dies, you pick up

416
00:20:24,160 --> 00:20:27,920
Speaker 3: another body and so on, and so they believe that

417
00:20:28,040 --> 00:20:32,280
Speaker 3: you as a thetan have like sort of godlike powers

418
00:20:32,320 --> 00:20:36,760
Speaker 3: like you uh are you can create your own universe

419
00:20:36,880 --> 00:20:39,200
Speaker 3: at will. You have like I don't know, all these

420
00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:42,879
Speaker 3: special abilities. And that's and through bad things that have

421
00:20:42,920 --> 00:20:45,440
Speaker 3: happened to us and or bad things that we've done,

422
00:20:45,680 --> 00:20:50,119
Speaker 3: or all that volcano crap, that you've basically become like

423
00:20:50,280 --> 00:20:53,640
Speaker 3: stuck in your body and you're mired down by all

424
00:20:53,720 --> 00:20:56,760
Speaker 3: of these things that are holding you back. And so

425
00:20:56,880 --> 00:21:00,000
Speaker 3: total freedom is essentially getting you back to that native

426
00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:03,880
Speaker 3: state where you are all powerful and so on.

427
00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:07,320
Speaker 2: Who has achieved total freedom within scientology?

428
00:21:07,600 --> 00:21:08,520
Speaker 4: How common thing?

429
00:21:08,880 --> 00:21:12,160
Speaker 3: I don't think anyone has, because they have this thing,

430
00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:15,800
Speaker 3: this sort of like scam going where there's these higher

431
00:21:15,880 --> 00:21:22,840
Speaker 3: levels that haven't been released yet to any scientologists, and

432
00:21:23,119 --> 00:21:25,320
Speaker 3: it's like there's kind of saying that al Ron Hubbard

433
00:21:25,400 --> 00:21:28,840
Speaker 3: left that information behind, but from everything I understand, that's

434
00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:31,719
Speaker 3: not actually true. They have no idea what it is.

435
00:21:32,040 --> 00:21:34,359
Speaker 3: It doesn't exist, and they're sort of saying that we

436
00:21:34,480 --> 00:21:37,159
Speaker 3: have to get all scientologists to a certain level before

437
00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:39,640
Speaker 3: we can release these higher levels.

438
00:21:39,680 --> 00:21:40,680
Speaker 4: These little.

439
00:21:42,040 --> 00:21:45,480
Speaker 2: Post will move forever, forever, be moving.

440
00:21:45,600 --> 00:21:49,280
Speaker 1: And just getting people more select in and more devout

441
00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:51,760
Speaker 1: and more scrupulous about it.

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Speaker 4: That's crazy.

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00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:56,959
Speaker 2: I mean, that's a cult. That's what cold stals.

444
00:21:57,200 --> 00:21:57,480
Speaker 4: Yeah.

445
00:21:57,800 --> 00:22:01,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, So what would life actually like them for a

446
00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:04,320
Speaker 2: child who's a cadet? I mean, what would you be

447
00:22:04,359 --> 00:22:04,920
Speaker 2: doing all day?

448
00:22:05,800 --> 00:22:09,040
Speaker 3: So I went to a place called the Ranch when

449
00:22:09,040 --> 00:22:12,840
Speaker 3: I was six years old, and basically like we woke

450
00:22:12,920 --> 00:22:15,640
Speaker 3: up at six thirty in the morning, we had uniforms.

451
00:22:15,920 --> 00:22:19,840
Speaker 3: We went to a mustard just like a big group meeting.

452
00:22:20,359 --> 00:22:22,280
Speaker 3: It was like run in a military way, like we

453
00:22:22,320 --> 00:22:25,560
Speaker 3: all like we saluted, we said unit one report and

454
00:22:25,600 --> 00:22:28,080
Speaker 3: then we like they're like left face and we all

455
00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:30,760
Speaker 3: they walked through and we all got our uniforms inspected.

456
00:22:30,960 --> 00:22:34,160
Speaker 3: While that was happening, people were inspecting our birthings, our

457
00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:37,719
Speaker 3: dorms to make sure they were clean. We lived like

458
00:22:37,760 --> 00:22:40,679
Speaker 3: there was like seven girls in a dorm that was

459
00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:42,800
Speaker 3: about the size of my living room right now. We

460
00:22:42,840 --> 00:22:45,320
Speaker 3: had like three sets of bunk beds, and then it

461
00:22:45,359 --> 00:22:48,960
Speaker 3: was connected with one bathroom to another dorm with another

462
00:22:49,040 --> 00:22:51,840
Speaker 3: seven girls. So it was like just like two sinks,

463
00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:55,840
Speaker 3: one bathroom and just like a bunch of kids. Anyways,

464
00:22:55,880 --> 00:22:58,960
Speaker 3: So then after we had that little meeting, it was

465
00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:01,359
Speaker 3: like we all had our little duties. Sometimes it was

466
00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:04,200
Speaker 3: like to clean up certain areas of the grounds. Mine

467
00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:07,240
Speaker 3: for a while was to hand out vitamins to kids

468
00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:10,280
Speaker 3: who had any sickness, and then I would like put

469
00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:14,200
Speaker 3: vitamins in people's cups at the breakfast table. Then after breakfast,

470
00:23:14,240 --> 00:23:16,119
Speaker 3: after we did all the dishes and cleaned up, we

471
00:23:16,160 --> 00:23:19,840
Speaker 3: would get like assigned like a manual labor task which

472
00:23:19,880 --> 00:23:23,480
Speaker 3: was like just all things to upgrade the ranch where

473
00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:26,200
Speaker 3: we were living. So it was like could be painting

474
00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:29,679
Speaker 3: a building. It could be like we would have we

475
00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:32,920
Speaker 3: had lots of gardens because we would provide vegetables for

476
00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:36,359
Speaker 3: the base where our parents worked, the International Management Base,

477
00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:39,159
Speaker 3: So we would dig trenches for irrigation. Sometimes we were

478
00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:42,480
Speaker 3: harvesting vegetables. Sometimes we were watching them. There was like

479
00:23:42,520 --> 00:23:44,520
Speaker 3: a ton of rock walls. We would go get them,

480
00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:47,120
Speaker 3: get the rocks from the creek. We would haul those.

481
00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:51,359
Speaker 3: We would plant cactus, plant trees. It was just like

482
00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:55,479
Speaker 3: like just like that sort of like landscaping, manual labor

483
00:23:56,160 --> 00:24:01,880
Speaker 3: until lunch, and then after lunch we had like regular

484
00:24:02,119 --> 00:24:03,480
Speaker 3: like academic studies.

485
00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:05,200
Speaker 4: Oh okay, so but we didn't.

486
00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:08,119
Speaker 3: Have grades or anything like that. It was just like

487
00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:11,199
Speaker 3: self led. We had what were called check sheets, so

488
00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:13,560
Speaker 3: all kids of all ages would be in the same room.

489
00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:17,000
Speaker 3: The teacher wasn't like teaching us things. They were like

490
00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:19,000
Speaker 3: kind of like just telling us to shut up and

491
00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:19,960
Speaker 3: not talk to each other.

492
00:24:20,200 --> 00:24:22,199
Speaker 1: It really impresses me because we talked to a lot

493
00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:25,280
Speaker 1: of people who learned this way. You guys all learned

494
00:24:25,359 --> 00:24:28,080
Speaker 1: to read, and I don't know how you do. Like

495
00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:33,240
Speaker 1: children are so smart, they're so adaptable, Like how is

496
00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:34,040
Speaker 1: that happening?

497
00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:36,439
Speaker 2: So many people are not given a proper education as

498
00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:38,919
Speaker 2: a child, and we're just kind of given a fake education,

499
00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:41,600
Speaker 2: like a cult education or none at all, and somehow

500
00:24:41,640 --> 00:24:45,040
Speaker 2: emerged from it as these like highly articulate.

501
00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:48,720
Speaker 1: Writing books and writers. Yeah, your book's incredible. It's just amazing.

502
00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:51,840
Speaker 3: Thank you. Anyway, I mean we did do a lot

503
00:24:52,119 --> 00:24:57,160
Speaker 3: of reading and a lot of writing specifically, because that's

504
00:24:57,440 --> 00:25:01,119
Speaker 3: how we, like nothing was taught to and so like

505
00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:04,879
Speaker 3: if you in scientology, they believe if you don't understand

506
00:25:04,920 --> 00:25:08,160
Speaker 3: something you're reading, it's because there's a word in that

507
00:25:08,280 --> 00:25:12,359
Speaker 3: text that you don't understand. So you can any like,

508
00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:14,880
Speaker 3: there's no point in asking for help. They're going to say,

509
00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:18,119
Speaker 3: what word don't you understand? They will never explain to

510
00:25:18,119 --> 00:25:21,160
Speaker 3: you a concept. Yeah, So whether it's math or science

511
00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:25,480
Speaker 3: or history, they will never explain anything to you. You

512
00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:28,240
Speaker 3: have to read it and figure it out yourself. And

513
00:25:28,280 --> 00:25:30,280
Speaker 3: if you can't understand it, then you need to look

514
00:25:30,320 --> 00:25:32,320
Speaker 3: up the word that you don't understand. Look it up

515
00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:36,119
Speaker 3: in the dictionary, read each definition, use each one in

516
00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:39,280
Speaker 3: each definition and sentences until you fully understand it and

517
00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:42,960
Speaker 3: learn the etymology of that word. And so there's no help,

518
00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:44,040
Speaker 3: you're not getting any help.

519
00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:44,240
Speaker 4: Yeah.

520
00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:47,280
Speaker 1: And if it's math, that's like I don't the number nine.

521
00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:50,640
Speaker 1: Looking up what nine means doesn't help me do an equation,

522
00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:53,200
Speaker 1: Like that's right, so frustrating.

523
00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:56,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I mean before I was at the ranch,

524
00:25:56,240 --> 00:25:59,359
Speaker 3: there was like it was more like kindergarten. So I

525
00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:02,879
Speaker 3: guess like I taught as that, right, So by the

526
00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:05,680
Speaker 3: time I was at the ranch, even though I was six,

527
00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:08,720
Speaker 3: I was already like reading and writing, and so by

528
00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:11,480
Speaker 3: the time I was there, it was just everything moving

529
00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:12,800
Speaker 3: forward from there.

530
00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:16,440
Speaker 2: It puts the onus on you too, from such a

531
00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:19,280
Speaker 2: young age, like, oh, if I'm not understanding something, it's

532
00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:22,439
Speaker 2: my fault. It's not the text's fault. It's not like

533
00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:26,080
Speaker 2: the purposefully opaque. It's me. I'm the problem because I

534
00:26:26,119 --> 00:26:28,080
Speaker 2: didn't look it up enough or whatever.

535
00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:32,520
Speaker 3: Right, Yes, exactly, that's exactly right. And there's even a

536
00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:36,440
Speaker 3: little bit more pressure on top of that because basically

537
00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:40,120
Speaker 3: how they run the classroom, which is called the course room,

538
00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:43,800
Speaker 3: is they the teacher can come up to you at

539
00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:47,719
Speaker 3: any time and spot check you on words, and like

540
00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:50,560
Speaker 3: if you if they pick a word that's earlier in

541
00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:52,879
Speaker 3: your text, you have to go back to the beginning

542
00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:55,520
Speaker 3: and start your whole course over again from there.

543
00:26:55,680 --> 00:26:56,200
Speaker 2: Oh wow.

544
00:26:56,320 --> 00:26:59,320
Speaker 3: And if you even have like even if you give

545
00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:02,000
Speaker 3: the right deaths for the word, if you have the

546
00:27:02,040 --> 00:27:05,360
Speaker 3: slightest lag, you get like it's like flunk look it up.

547
00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:08,440
Speaker 3: So it's like it's almost like this thing that might

548
00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:11,560
Speaker 3: help an adult in some way, when you're just learning,

549
00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:14,480
Speaker 3: it's like it's not helpful at all. It just like

550
00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:16,800
Speaker 3: puts you in this state of fear. We would also

551
00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:21,800
Speaker 3: get checks on the emeter during this during our academic studies,

552
00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:24,560
Speaker 3: which is basically sort of like a lie detector. You

553
00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:27,920
Speaker 3: hold two cans, you're attached to it, and it has

554
00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:31,080
Speaker 3: a dial and a needle, and in front of the

555
00:27:31,119 --> 00:27:34,960
Speaker 3: whole classroom that they would ask you in your recent studies,

556
00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:37,879
Speaker 3: have you encountered any word you didn't fully understand And

557
00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:40,800
Speaker 3: if the meter responds, then you flunk, and if it doesn't,

558
00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:44,960
Speaker 3: then you pass. But essentially it's like everybody hears if

559
00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:47,040
Speaker 3: you pass, are flunk, which was a big issue for me.

560
00:27:47,080 --> 00:27:49,040
Speaker 3: Maybe it's not a big deal for other people, but.

561
00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:53,480
Speaker 5: I was like, that's so that's so humiliating, and like, yeah,

562
00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:56,879
Speaker 5: it was so embarrassing. So I would like have these

563
00:27:56,920 --> 00:27:59,120
Speaker 5: little ways of getting around it, and when I talk

564
00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:01,520
Speaker 5: to other people, they have their own ways too, But

565
00:28:01,560 --> 00:28:04,680
Speaker 5: I would just have a dictionary open all the time

566
00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:07,359
Speaker 5: because they can't give you a meter check if that

567
00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:09,120
Speaker 5: you already if you're in the middle of looking up

568
00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:13,159
Speaker 5: a word, you know. So it's like the strategy, but

569
00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:15,359
Speaker 5: it's like, am I even studying at this point?

570
00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:18,000
Speaker 3: I'm like trying to avoid the spot check. I can't

571
00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:21,000
Speaker 3: get my questions answered. I'm trying to avoid the meter check.

572
00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:24,800
Speaker 3: It's like this whole other level of ridiculousness.

573
00:28:25,320 --> 00:28:28,520
Speaker 2: And then the emeter, can you explain what it's actually?

574
00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:31,720
Speaker 2: Is it actually measuring anything? Is it like a lie detector?

575
00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:32,400
Speaker 2: Like what is it?

576
00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:37,040
Speaker 3: Yeah? So of course it measures movement and things like that.

577
00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:40,760
Speaker 3: So it's basically like you're holding two cans and it's

578
00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:44,200
Speaker 3: passing a current through your body going back into the

579
00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:48,320
Speaker 3: E meter. And the theory is that if your mind

580
00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:52,560
Speaker 3: influences this current, then it shows up on the E meter.

581
00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:55,800
Speaker 3: So if they ask you a question, your mind like

582
00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:58,280
Speaker 3: sort of like I don't know, change something in the

583
00:28:58,280 --> 00:29:01,440
Speaker 3: current and it shows up on the E meter. So

584
00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:05,280
Speaker 3: whether like so they have names for each of the

585
00:29:05,320 --> 00:29:08,640
Speaker 3: different movements of the needle, So whether or not those

586
00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:13,240
Speaker 3: are true, I mean probably not. I mean everyone in scientology,

587
00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:18,920
Speaker 3: so in order to like finish a counseling procedure, you

588
00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:22,240
Speaker 3: have to have what's called the floating needle. And it's

589
00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:24,440
Speaker 3: like this movement of your needle. That's like back and

590
00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:29,040
Speaker 3: forth and slow and even and rhythmic, and everyone in

591
00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:32,800
Speaker 3: scientology knows how to make their needle float. Like nobody

592
00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:34,880
Speaker 3: talks about this, but you all know, like you're all

593
00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:37,680
Speaker 3: doing your own thing to make this happen, like whether

594
00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:41,440
Speaker 3: it's thinking happy thoughts or like making yourself like feel

595
00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:42,840
Speaker 3: really zen, I don't know.

596
00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:46,280
Speaker 1: It's like slowing your heartbeat down their breathrates or something.

597
00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:47,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, but that does.

598
00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:50,160
Speaker 2: Sound like how you would defeat a light detector test

599
00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:52,560
Speaker 2: as well, because it's just detecting that your heart rate's

600
00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:53,000
Speaker 2: going up.

601
00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:56,640
Speaker 3: Right, it's almost like you dissociate or something, right, you

602
00:29:56,640 --> 00:30:01,800
Speaker 3: know what I mean? Yeah, So so it's doing something. Now,

603
00:30:02,120 --> 00:30:04,440
Speaker 3: it's I don't think that it's like doing what they

604
00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:06,760
Speaker 3: think it does. It's not like if it says that

605
00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:09,480
Speaker 3: you have a word you don't understand, like that's probably

606
00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:12,160
Speaker 3: not true or true half the time. I don't, but

607
00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:15,240
Speaker 3: I but it's it does. It's doing something. I don't

608
00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:15,720
Speaker 3: really know what.

609
00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:20,440
Speaker 1: I had no idea words were so important, but like

610
00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:20,920
Speaker 1: you don't know.

611
00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:23,760
Speaker 4: Anything that, Like scientology is so good.

612
00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:26,080
Speaker 1: I watched you on a YouTube channel or you talk

613
00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:28,720
Speaker 1: to another scientologist, and it was like so fun to

614
00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:30,640
Speaker 1: see you guys just go for it and not have

615
00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:33,480
Speaker 1: to explain everything. But I was like, this is a

616
00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:38,680
Speaker 1: different language. They have seriously mastered the art of like

617
00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:43,280
Speaker 1: making it completely unrelatable to anyone outside.

618
00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:47,480
Speaker 3: I know, it's so hard. It makes it so frustrating.

619
00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:49,800
Speaker 3: When I came out, I just had to like train

620
00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:53,800
Speaker 3: myself for years. I had all these like replacement words

621
00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:56,760
Speaker 3: that I like just had to figure out for everything.

622
00:30:56,760 --> 00:30:59,160
Speaker 3: But it's like learning a new way to talk.

623
00:30:59,520 --> 00:30:59,840
Speaker 4: Yeah.

624
00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:02,720
Speaker 3: Yeah. And then I joke about it too, because you know,

625
00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:04,840
Speaker 3: I have two kids, and I feel like I had

626
00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:07,080
Speaker 3: to do the same thing with them, like to dumb

627
00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:11,600
Speaker 3: everything down that I talked about in regular language for them.

628
00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:13,960
Speaker 3: So I'm like have to like switch my language back

629
00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:14,720
Speaker 3: and forth.

630
00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:20,440
Speaker 4: Constantly, as if being a parent isn't hard enough. Yeah, yes, right.

631
00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:30,400
Speaker 2: Whenever I talk to someone who was a scientologist, I'm like,

632
00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:33,280
Speaker 2: I know that the like technical questions aren't that important,

633
00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:36,160
Speaker 2: but I always want to try to understand generally what

634
00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:39,760
Speaker 2: the belief system is and like, but but scientology is

635
00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:43,760
Speaker 2: so complex and that the like system is, so I

636
00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:47,320
Speaker 2: mean I'm assuming purposely. Yeah, it's difficult to understand and

637
00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:51,920
Speaker 2: complicated it because it's not science that you really can't

638
00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:54,240
Speaker 2: get bogged down by it, and like it's not the point.

639
00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:56,920
Speaker 2: The point is the control, The point is the isolation,

640
00:31:57,440 --> 00:31:59,960
Speaker 2: The point is you know, the culty aspects of it.

641
00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:02,200
Speaker 2: But still it is. It is also just like fascinating

642
00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:05,520
Speaker 2: because there is this charade of it being scientific, And

643
00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:08,600
Speaker 2: I always find that really interesting in cults because usually

644
00:32:08,600 --> 00:32:10,480
Speaker 2: they're so religion based, you know what I mean?

645
00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:14,160
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, that makes sense. I could see how that

646
00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:16,360
Speaker 3: would be like a sort of different or something that

647
00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:17,560
Speaker 3: sets scientology apart.

648
00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:20,600
Speaker 2: First of all, just let's mention that you were forced

649
00:32:20,680 --> 00:32:23,960
Speaker 2: to do child labor. I mean that's labor trafficking of children.

650
00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:28,800
Speaker 2: That's like not acceptable. What was the thinking behind being

651
00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:31,920
Speaker 2: so tough on kids instead of letting them be kids?

652
00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:36,960
Speaker 3: So, like I think that, well, because they believe that

653
00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:41,200
Speaker 3: you're a spiritual being, you're essentially like who's lived trillions

654
00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:44,200
Speaker 3: of years. You just have a small body. You're not

655
00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:48,520
Speaker 3: doesn't mean that you're not like mentally mature or what, right,

656
00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:51,840
Speaker 3: It just means that your body is. And I mean

657
00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:54,840
Speaker 3: I just remember when I was there a lot of it,

658
00:32:55,680 --> 00:32:58,120
Speaker 3: A lot of what we were told was that how

659
00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:00,960
Speaker 3: lucky we were to be there, and we're being given

660
00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:05,080
Speaker 3: food and a place to sleep, and we needed to exchange.

661
00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:08,240
Speaker 3: We needed to do work in exchange for this. And

662
00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:12,880
Speaker 3: if you don't, if you don't, if you don't give

663
00:33:12,960 --> 00:33:15,680
Speaker 3: something in exchange for what you're getting, then you will

664
00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:18,760
Speaker 3: turn out to be a criminal, because only criminals get

665
00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:22,400
Speaker 3: things for free. So it's sort of like presented to

666
00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:23,840
Speaker 3: you as like it's for your own good.

667
00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:27,640
Speaker 4: And did you buy into the whole concept where you like, yep,

668
00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:28,200
Speaker 4: this is.

669
00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:29,360
Speaker 2: I love it?

670
00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:32,600
Speaker 4: Like what was your what was your thought process?

671
00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:36,920
Speaker 3: I was never like I love it, but I I

672
00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:40,920
Speaker 3: was like, Okay, they're saying that that's true. I don't

673
00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:44,120
Speaker 3: want to be a criminal, and I want to be

674
00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:47,040
Speaker 3: with my mom and dad and there, and so as

675
00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:49,440
Speaker 3: soon as I can graduate from the ranch, I'll be

676
00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:52,320
Speaker 3: with them at the base where they're working. So I

677
00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:55,080
Speaker 3: was kind of like, whatever I have to do in

678
00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:59,560
Speaker 3: order to get there, then I'll be good. I mean,

679
00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:01,960
Speaker 3: you don't really have another option. You know, there's no

680
00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:04,400
Speaker 3: one else who who you're thinking that you can go

681
00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:07,720
Speaker 3: live with. You know, you're sort of like so they

682
00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:11,400
Speaker 3: call people in the outside world wogs. I don't actually

683
00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:14,440
Speaker 3: know where that term comes from, but it's like sort

684
00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:18,920
Speaker 3: of like a muggle, And so we're sort of taught

685
00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:21,440
Speaker 3: about them in a way that it's like, oh, they

686
00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:22,520
Speaker 3: don't really know.

687
00:34:22,920 --> 00:34:26,920
Speaker 1: And they're like non playable characters right now, yeah.

688
00:34:27,120 --> 00:34:34,239
Speaker 3: Yeah, right, yeah, exactly what wogs wags is a whole

689
00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:34,719
Speaker 3: different thing.

690
00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:38,600
Speaker 4: Woggs. I don't want to be I want to be.

691
00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:41,160
Speaker 4: I do, but I don't want to be called want

692
00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:42,800
Speaker 4: to I do, but I don't know.

693
00:34:43,040 --> 00:34:44,040
Speaker 3: You're a scientilogist.

694
00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:46,840
Speaker 4: But it's like already insulting me. It's a good word.

695
00:34:47,239 --> 00:34:48,560
Speaker 2: It does sound insulting.

696
00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:52,880
Speaker 3: A wog does kind of sound insulting, but but like

697
00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:55,640
Speaker 3: an insult from them, right, it's a good thing.

698
00:34:55,920 --> 00:34:57,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, it is a good thing.

699
00:34:57,680 --> 00:34:58,040
Speaker 4: It is.

700
00:34:58,239 --> 00:35:01,040
Speaker 3: It is sort of with wogs. We were sort of

701
00:35:01,080 --> 00:35:03,400
Speaker 3: like treated like they were a little bit scary because

702
00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:06,000
Speaker 3: we always had to have like what was called a

703
00:35:06,080 --> 00:35:09,279
Speaker 3: shore story, which was like like what we would tell

704
00:35:09,280 --> 00:35:12,120
Speaker 3: them if they asked us, Like so just say if

705
00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:14,920
Speaker 3: I was like with my dad on a weekend day

706
00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:16,759
Speaker 3: or the few hours that I had with then we

707
00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:18,800
Speaker 3: went out to breakfast, and they're like, where do you

708
00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:21,480
Speaker 3: go to school? Like I was supposed to have some

709
00:35:21,719 --> 00:35:24,359
Speaker 3: story or something that I was supposed to say, like,

710
00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:26,839
Speaker 3: but it was never the truth, and I never really

711
00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:29,000
Speaker 3: understood why. I was like, why can't I tell them

712
00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:31,680
Speaker 3: the truth? Like, so it was always like I was

713
00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:34,480
Speaker 3: hiding something. So I knew that I could say the

714
00:35:34,520 --> 00:35:37,240
Speaker 3: wrong thing to woggs and I could get in trouble

715
00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:38,960
Speaker 3: or it could be a problem. So it sort of

716
00:35:39,000 --> 00:35:43,120
Speaker 3: just added to this separation and made the wog world

717
00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:46,000
Speaker 3: more scary to me. And also we were taught that

718
00:35:46,080 --> 00:35:50,040
Speaker 3: like in regular public schools, there's like drugs and like

719
00:35:50,239 --> 00:35:53,040
Speaker 3: psychiatrists are there and they like mess with your mind.

720
00:35:53,040 --> 00:35:56,400
Speaker 3: They drugged children, and so it just like all seemed

721
00:35:56,760 --> 00:35:59,200
Speaker 3: so scary to me because I didn't know any wogs.

722
00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:02,120
Speaker 3: I knew zero walks. I was only surrounded by other

723
00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:05,200
Speaker 3: kids like me and who had parents in the New

724
00:36:05,239 --> 00:36:05,920
Speaker 3: York as well.

725
00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:08,759
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, I mean that's a very scary. Those are

726
00:36:08,840 --> 00:36:14,160
Speaker 2: very scary stories to be telling children. Classic outsider demonization,

727
00:36:14,480 --> 00:36:17,400
Speaker 2: another way to keep people isolated. But you were spending

728
00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:20,280
Speaker 2: so little time with your parents, Like was it difficult

729
00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:22,799
Speaker 2: to connect with them, Like did you feel like you

730
00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:24,239
Speaker 2: had a strong relationship with them?

731
00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:27,640
Speaker 3: So I feel like as a kid, there's like, especially

732
00:36:27,640 --> 00:36:32,200
Speaker 3: as a younger kid, it's like you're biologically wanting to

733
00:36:32,239 --> 00:36:35,200
Speaker 3: do that no matter what, Like you're just like you

734
00:36:35,239 --> 00:36:36,920
Speaker 3: want to be with your parents. You want them to

735
00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:42,560
Speaker 3: love you, you want them to accept you. And so a

736
00:36:42,560 --> 00:36:44,200
Speaker 3: lot of the time when I was at the ranch,

737
00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:46,439
Speaker 3: from when I was six i was twelve, my mom

738
00:36:46,560 --> 00:36:49,319
Speaker 3: was away, Like you know before how she had been

739
00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:52,800
Speaker 3: at the at the cruise ship. She then was in

740
00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:55,600
Speaker 3: Los Angeles while I was at the ranch, which was

741
00:36:55,600 --> 00:36:59,239
Speaker 3: in hemet, and then later she was in Florida at

742
00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:04,240
Speaker 3: their big scientology center there, and so it was mostly

743
00:37:04,280 --> 00:37:06,640
Speaker 3: just my dad, who I would see for a few

744
00:37:06,680 --> 00:37:10,719
Speaker 3: hours on Sunday morning and you know, he would like

745
00:37:10,840 --> 00:37:13,800
Speaker 3: make breakfast for me and we had a few hours

746
00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:16,360
Speaker 3: together and then I would go back to the ranch.

747
00:37:16,719 --> 00:37:18,440
Speaker 3: So at that time, you know, I just wanted to

748
00:37:18,440 --> 00:37:21,279
Speaker 3: see both of my parents more. But I think that

749
00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:25,719
Speaker 3: when I started to hit puberty, I was like I

750
00:37:25,800 --> 00:37:28,319
Speaker 3: wasn't feeling that as much. Like I was kind of

751
00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:31,799
Speaker 3: like I don't really know them that much, you know,

752
00:37:32,080 --> 00:37:36,080
Speaker 3: and that urge to always be with them a sort

753
00:37:36,120 --> 00:37:39,879
Speaker 3: of I started to feel the effects of not having

754
00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:40,719
Speaker 3: been with them at all?

755
00:37:42,040 --> 00:37:44,920
Speaker 1: Was your dad competitive at all with David? Was he

756
00:37:45,280 --> 00:37:49,320
Speaker 1: jealous that he was raising up the rising up the ranks.

757
00:37:49,600 --> 00:37:53,440
Speaker 3: I didn't get that idea at all. I think that,

758
00:37:54,000 --> 00:37:56,200
Speaker 3: you know, he didn't maybe like how he was treated

759
00:37:56,239 --> 00:37:59,400
Speaker 3: by Dave some of the time. But I but my

760
00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:03,680
Speaker 3: dad wasn't like didn't have the same like drive for power.

761
00:38:03,920 --> 00:38:08,560
Speaker 3: He was like pretty friendly and like easy going. I

762
00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:12,880
Speaker 3: guess he didn't have that like that insatiable thing inside

763
00:38:12,880 --> 00:38:14,600
Speaker 3: of him that Dave seemed to have.

764
00:38:15,360 --> 00:38:19,040
Speaker 2: How did you know Dave? Well, little like who was

765
00:38:19,080 --> 00:38:19,719
Speaker 2: he to you?

766
00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:21,000
Speaker 4: Yeah? How'd he treat you?

767
00:38:21,480 --> 00:38:24,200
Speaker 3: So? When I was like a younger kid, he was

768
00:38:24,239 --> 00:38:26,520
Speaker 3: like my uncle and he was really sweet to me,

769
00:38:26,719 --> 00:38:29,279
Speaker 3: Like whenever he saw me, you'd give me a hug.

770
00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:32,759
Speaker 3: He would send me Christmas presents. He would like if

771
00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:36,799
Speaker 3: I was at the International Management Base, like visiting because

772
00:38:36,800 --> 00:38:39,799
Speaker 3: sometimes the kids would work in the kitchens there, like

773
00:38:39,960 --> 00:38:42,359
Speaker 3: just to help out or do other things. He would

774
00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:44,799
Speaker 3: like grab me, put me on the back of his motorcycle,

775
00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:48,439
Speaker 3: take me to his office. I was close with his wife,

776
00:38:48,520 --> 00:38:53,080
Speaker 3: my aunt Shelley, and so he was really sweet to me.

777
00:38:53,239 --> 00:38:55,360
Speaker 3: But as I got a little bit older, I started

778
00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:57,640
Speaker 3: to see that people were really afraid of him, and

779
00:38:57,680 --> 00:39:00,480
Speaker 3: I could sort of see him do little things. I

780
00:39:00,520 --> 00:39:04,160
Speaker 3: could tell that he knew things that weren't a big deal,

781
00:39:04,320 --> 00:39:06,279
Speaker 3: but you can you just like start picking up on

782
00:39:06,320 --> 00:39:10,240
Speaker 3: these dynamics a little bit more the older that you get,

783
00:39:10,440 --> 00:39:13,720
Speaker 3: and like what you know, Like I would just see

784
00:39:14,600 --> 00:39:17,640
Speaker 3: staff like him ask them questions and they would be

785
00:39:17,680 --> 00:39:20,040
Speaker 3: like afraid or like there's just like a few little

786
00:39:20,040 --> 00:39:24,400
Speaker 3: incidentss where like like like one time when I was

787
00:39:24,440 --> 00:39:27,440
Speaker 3: in Florida, I was visiting my mom because she was

788
00:39:27,719 --> 00:39:30,800
Speaker 3: posted there and so I didn't like it was a visit,

789
00:39:30,880 --> 00:39:33,279
Speaker 3: like after not seeing her for like a year, and

790
00:39:33,960 --> 00:39:37,560
Speaker 3: she and my uncle Dave was in town and she

791
00:39:37,640 --> 00:39:38,920
Speaker 3: was like, Okay, I don't want you to come to

792
00:39:38,960 --> 00:39:41,480
Speaker 3: this office area while he's here. And normally I would

793
00:39:41,520 --> 00:39:44,920
Speaker 3: eat lunch with her, and so I went there anyways

794
00:39:45,120 --> 00:39:47,280
Speaker 3: because I wanted to send this letter to my brother.

795
00:39:47,719 --> 00:39:50,920
Speaker 3: And then he came in and I like ran away,

796
00:39:51,280 --> 00:39:54,080
Speaker 3: and he was like, Jenna, why are you running away

797
00:39:54,239 --> 00:39:56,759
Speaker 3: from me? And I was like oh, and I was

798
00:39:56,800 --> 00:39:59,319
Speaker 3: like clueless. I was like, oh, because my mom told

799
00:39:59,360 --> 00:40:03,440
Speaker 3: me not to be here. You're here, And then my

800
00:40:03,480 --> 00:40:08,560
Speaker 3: mom was like, no, I didn't, Yes, you did. It's

801
00:40:08,680 --> 00:40:10,480
Speaker 3: like I can just tell that my mom was like

802
00:40:10,719 --> 00:40:12,480
Speaker 3: afraid of him or trying to hide or it was

803
00:40:12,560 --> 00:40:14,759
Speaker 3: just like stuff like that. And as you wound up

804
00:40:14,840 --> 00:40:17,080
Speaker 3: being just like really nice about it, he's like, well,

805
00:40:17,120 --> 00:40:21,240
Speaker 3: you don't need to be afraid of me, and then yeah,

806
00:40:21,280 --> 00:40:23,759
Speaker 3: so but it was still I could see or like

807
00:40:23,840 --> 00:40:26,280
Speaker 3: sometimes they would like take me out of the room,

808
00:40:26,719 --> 00:40:28,760
Speaker 3: and I knew he would be like screaming at people,

809
00:40:29,840 --> 00:40:32,120
Speaker 3: which wasn't that weird of a concept because we got

810
00:40:32,120 --> 00:40:34,200
Speaker 3: screamed out all the time, and we screamed at each

811
00:40:34,200 --> 00:40:38,080
Speaker 3: other all the time as kids, So it wasn't like

812
00:40:38,160 --> 00:40:40,479
Speaker 3: I was almost like, well, I know he's screaming at someone.

813
00:40:40,520 --> 00:40:43,520
Speaker 3: I'm not an idiot. This is like that's normal. But

814
00:40:43,640 --> 00:40:45,520
Speaker 3: I could tell that they were like trying to hide

815
00:40:45,560 --> 00:40:48,640
Speaker 3: it or something like that from me, so that it

816
00:40:48,719 --> 00:40:52,080
Speaker 3: wasn't scary. So yeah, that's how it was when I

817
00:40:52,120 --> 00:40:55,759
Speaker 3: was little, and you know, the older I got, I

818
00:40:55,840 --> 00:40:58,080
Speaker 3: did not see him as much. I had like a

819
00:40:58,360 --> 00:41:04,040
Speaker 3: couple encounters with him that weren't great, and then sort

820
00:41:04,080 --> 00:41:06,200
Speaker 3: of just like learning about after like a lot of

821
00:41:06,200 --> 00:41:08,440
Speaker 3: the bad things that happened to me. He was like

822
00:41:08,480 --> 00:41:12,279
Speaker 3: behind them and sort of orchestrating it, but having other

823
00:41:12,320 --> 00:41:13,520
Speaker 3: people do the work on it.

824
00:41:13,800 --> 00:41:17,040
Speaker 2: Right, Can you explain why everyone was screaming at each

825
00:41:17,040 --> 00:41:22,440
Speaker 2: other all the time? Why was that so normal?

826
00:41:22,680 --> 00:41:25,480
Speaker 3: I mean just at the ranch as kids like we were,

827
00:41:25,640 --> 00:41:28,080
Speaker 3: it was like you were working on doing the heavy labor,

828
00:41:28,080 --> 00:41:33,560
Speaker 3: and it was like, get to work, we can't run. Yeah, totally. Yeah.

829
00:41:33,600 --> 00:41:36,600
Speaker 3: And like even in the classroom when we were trying

830
00:41:36,600 --> 00:41:39,080
Speaker 3: to do our academic studies, like I would sometimes try

831
00:41:39,120 --> 00:41:40,760
Speaker 3: to ask my friend, I was like, can you explain

832
00:41:40,800 --> 00:41:43,320
Speaker 3: this to me? And it wasn't like it was literally

833
00:41:43,360 --> 00:41:46,920
Speaker 3: like Jenna, shut the fuck up, Oh my god, like

834
00:41:48,440 --> 00:41:52,920
Speaker 3: totally normal. It wasn't like please be quiet, It was

835
00:41:52,920 --> 00:41:57,880
Speaker 3: like shut the fuck up. I don't know. I'm almost like,

836
00:41:58,080 --> 00:41:59,160
Speaker 3: can you explain why not?

837
00:41:59,360 --> 00:42:02,400
Speaker 2: I mean, just right sound healthy?

838
00:42:04,920 --> 00:42:07,360
Speaker 4: I mean it does sound a little freeing. Why do

839
00:42:07,440 --> 00:42:09,560
Speaker 4: I keep like like wiking little.

840
00:42:10,120 --> 00:42:12,360
Speaker 2: Megan is joining right off?

841
00:42:13,280 --> 00:42:14,680
Speaker 4: I don't want to be No.

842
00:42:15,560 --> 00:42:18,200
Speaker 2: Two things that you talked about that I wanted to

843
00:42:18,239 --> 00:42:21,760
Speaker 2: ask about. One was chits. It was like an ethics

844
00:42:21,800 --> 00:42:25,400
Speaker 2: folder full of chits. What is that again? The language?

845
00:42:25,680 --> 00:42:29,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, so there is a policy and scientology that's called

846
00:42:29,880 --> 00:42:33,239
Speaker 3: knowledge reports, and it basically says that if you know

847
00:42:33,320 --> 00:42:37,200
Speaker 3: of anybody else slacking off or doing anything that violates

848
00:42:37,239 --> 00:42:40,520
Speaker 3: any of the rules, if you do not report them,

849
00:42:40,719 --> 00:42:43,360
Speaker 3: you are an accessory to whatever they did and you

850
00:42:43,360 --> 00:42:46,840
Speaker 3: will have the same punishment. And there's variations of the

851
00:42:47,040 --> 00:42:51,080
Speaker 3: knowledge report. Some are chits, like it's like a birthing chit,

852
00:42:51,200 --> 00:42:53,239
Speaker 3: if you if you didn't do your cleaning station. It's

853
00:42:53,280 --> 00:42:56,280
Speaker 3: all these like or if you didn't clean your birthing enough,

854
00:42:56,440 --> 00:42:58,919
Speaker 3: you know, or if you're late, you get a late chit.

855
00:42:59,239 --> 00:43:02,440
Speaker 3: There's just all the these versions of knowledge reports. Basically,

856
00:43:02,760 --> 00:43:04,719
Speaker 3: there's a million different kinds of reports, but they're all

857
00:43:04,760 --> 00:43:09,360
Speaker 3: knowledge reports, and it's all just snitching. And these these reports,

858
00:43:09,400 --> 00:43:11,800
Speaker 3: you get one copy of it, and then there's that

859
00:43:12,120 --> 00:43:14,520
Speaker 3: ethics section. They get the other copy and that gets

860
00:43:14,560 --> 00:43:17,360
Speaker 3: filed in your ethics folder, and you just have like

861
00:43:17,400 --> 00:43:20,160
Speaker 3: all these ethics folders that are building up the whole

862
00:43:20,160 --> 00:43:21,359
Speaker 3: time you're in scientology.

863
00:43:21,600 --> 00:43:25,120
Speaker 2: I can imagine it would be so difficult to trust anyone, yeah,

864
00:43:25,120 --> 00:43:28,200
Speaker 2: because everyone could tell on you at any moment, and

865
00:43:28,200 --> 00:43:30,080
Speaker 2: they're encouraged to absolutely.

866
00:43:30,120 --> 00:43:32,319
Speaker 3: That's how it is. It's like you don't really know

867
00:43:32,560 --> 00:43:36,520
Speaker 3: who your friends are, or your friend is told constantly

868
00:43:36,520 --> 00:43:39,360
Speaker 3: that they're not your friend. If they're not reporting you,

869
00:43:39,840 --> 00:43:44,200
Speaker 3: they're enanging your spiritual freedom. And so it's like this

870
00:43:44,280 --> 00:43:48,200
Speaker 3: whole conundrum, and I think different people wind up dealing

871
00:43:48,239 --> 00:43:51,000
Speaker 3: with it in different ways. Like I think some people

872
00:43:51,040 --> 00:43:53,960
Speaker 3: are like, great, I'll just write a chit on everybody.

873
00:43:54,080 --> 00:43:57,279
Speaker 3: I'll write a knowledge report all the time. I don't

874
00:43:57,280 --> 00:43:59,319
Speaker 3: know if it's because I grew up in it, but

875
00:43:59,480 --> 00:44:02,319
Speaker 3: I only wrote reports on people who I had, like

876
00:44:02,400 --> 00:44:09,960
Speaker 3: some personal reports on my friends. And I think that you, like,

877
00:44:10,239 --> 00:44:12,400
Speaker 3: I don't know, you kind of knew who was like

878
00:44:12,440 --> 00:44:13,360
Speaker 3: that and who wasn't.

879
00:44:13,640 --> 00:44:15,960
Speaker 4: Did you know who wrote the chat about you?

880
00:44:16,080 --> 00:44:19,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, because you would get a copy of it. This

881
00:44:19,160 --> 00:44:21,840
Speaker 3: is one kind of chit that they weren't required to

882
00:44:21,880 --> 00:44:25,719
Speaker 3: send you a copy of it, so sometimes you didn't know.

883
00:44:25,840 --> 00:44:27,120
Speaker 3: But mostly yes.

884
00:44:27,160 --> 00:44:28,320
Speaker 4: What a war zone?

885
00:44:28,760 --> 00:44:30,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know.

886
00:44:30,719 --> 00:44:33,479
Speaker 3: I mean between that getting spot checked like randomly throughout

887
00:44:33,520 --> 00:44:35,920
Speaker 3: the day for the misunderstood words, getting meter check, and

888
00:44:35,960 --> 00:44:38,480
Speaker 3: getting chits written on you, it's like, I mean, there's

889
00:44:38,520 --> 00:44:43,040
Speaker 3: so many other little things that are just so ridiculous

890
00:44:43,280 --> 00:44:46,680
Speaker 3: that we were just dealing with all day. It's like

891
00:44:46,800 --> 00:44:49,799
Speaker 3: being beaten down by all this like minutia and all

892
00:44:49,800 --> 00:44:50,720
Speaker 3: these little rules.

893
00:44:51,080 --> 00:44:53,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, you would be in a constant state

894
00:44:53,440 --> 00:44:57,200
Speaker 2: of hypervigilance. I would imagine, which cannot which isn't good

895
00:44:57,239 --> 00:44:59,759
Speaker 2: for anyone, but I imagine especially it developed a young,

896
00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:04,000
Speaker 2: developing child. Was there any part of your life where

897
00:45:04,040 --> 00:45:06,000
Speaker 2: you were like, oh, I can relax now, or this

898
00:45:06,160 --> 00:45:07,640
Speaker 2: I can actually enjoy myself.

899
00:45:08,640 --> 00:45:12,319
Speaker 3: I mean, I guess like on the few hours that

900
00:45:12,400 --> 00:45:15,520
Speaker 3: I was with my dad, I felt that way, like

901
00:45:15,880 --> 00:45:18,440
Speaker 3: he would like make breakfast for me, or we would

902
00:45:18,440 --> 00:45:21,200
Speaker 3: go out to eat somewhere, and I felt like that.

903
00:45:21,400 --> 00:45:23,680
Speaker 3: But you know, when I look back at it, even then,

904
00:45:24,239 --> 00:45:26,279
Speaker 3: it wasn't like I was like could be telling my

905
00:45:26,400 --> 00:45:29,680
Speaker 3: dad all the things that I didn't like or anything

906
00:45:29,800 --> 00:45:35,160
Speaker 3: like that. So we didn't really have playtime, or it's

907
00:45:35,239 --> 00:45:38,160
Speaker 3: not like we had like a regular like watch a

908
00:45:38,200 --> 00:45:41,759
Speaker 3: movie time or anything like that. I mean, even like

909
00:45:42,000 --> 00:45:44,360
Speaker 3: when we would sit down to eat our meals, we

910
00:45:44,440 --> 00:45:47,360
Speaker 3: had assigned tables. But at the table, someone was the

911
00:45:47,480 --> 00:45:50,239
Speaker 3: steward for that week and they would be responsible for

912
00:45:50,280 --> 00:45:52,879
Speaker 3: bringing all the food. But there was also a kid

913
00:45:52,960 --> 00:45:56,200
Speaker 3: who was assigned the president and the treasurer. So there's

914
00:45:56,239 --> 00:45:59,520
Speaker 3: always like some job connected even with just like eating

915
00:45:59,520 --> 00:46:02,520
Speaker 3: your meal. Why it's just ridiculous.

916
00:46:03,239 --> 00:46:06,160
Speaker 1: I don't know, to get people used to having power,

917
00:46:06,239 --> 00:46:10,160
Speaker 1: to submitting to power to make everything.

918
00:46:10,560 --> 00:46:12,640
Speaker 2: I mean to me, it seems like you could connect

919
00:46:12,800 --> 00:46:15,560
Speaker 2: at meals and you could like actually develop bonds.

920
00:46:15,719 --> 00:46:18,839
Speaker 4: Yeah, people, So you're just like making people not do that.

921
00:46:19,320 --> 00:46:20,600
Speaker 2: Maybe I don't know.

922
00:46:20,640 --> 00:46:22,920
Speaker 3: I mean, I guess the president and the treasurer didn't

923
00:46:22,920 --> 00:46:25,759
Speaker 3: really do anything, but it was just still like just

924
00:46:25,840 --> 00:46:29,759
Speaker 3: another duty. Like I mean, I had three cleaning stations

925
00:46:29,760 --> 00:46:32,719
Speaker 3: in one given day. You know, I was either the

926
00:46:32,760 --> 00:46:36,400
Speaker 3: steward or the treasure you know, at meal times. And

927
00:46:36,440 --> 00:46:38,880
Speaker 3: then there was my job giving up vitamins. And then

928
00:46:38,880 --> 00:46:41,239
Speaker 3: there was the manual labor, and then there was the

929
00:46:41,680 --> 00:46:46,440
Speaker 3: studying academically, and then there was like the scientology studies

930
00:46:46,440 --> 00:46:48,879
Speaker 3: which we did in the evening. And then on top

931
00:46:48,960 --> 00:46:51,480
Speaker 3: of that, we had other little duties that were like

932
00:46:51,760 --> 00:46:54,360
Speaker 3: in case of a fire, you have to go evacuate

933
00:46:54,400 --> 00:46:57,920
Speaker 3: this building or so there was just so many levels.

934
00:46:57,960 --> 00:47:00,400
Speaker 3: So to even like have a day off, would have

935
00:47:00,520 --> 00:47:03,400
Speaker 3: to submit for approval, and I would have to have

936
00:47:03,400 --> 00:47:06,320
Speaker 3: a replacement for each of these duties. Every cleaning station,

937
00:47:06,400 --> 00:47:09,480
Speaker 3: I had, I would have to get another kid to say,

938
00:47:09,680 --> 00:47:11,320
Speaker 3: I'll cover you for this day.

939
00:47:11,239 --> 00:47:12,120
Speaker 2: As a child.

940
00:47:12,320 --> 00:47:15,120
Speaker 1: You're calling off work as a child and giving your

941
00:47:15,160 --> 00:47:17,120
Speaker 1: co Wow.

942
00:47:17,520 --> 00:47:20,920
Speaker 3: Yeah. So sometimes people just look at like the heavy

943
00:47:21,000 --> 00:47:24,520
Speaker 3: labor aspect of it, or the words aspected. But those

944
00:47:24,800 --> 00:47:27,160
Speaker 3: like those are so important, of course, but it's all

945
00:47:27,360 --> 00:47:31,319
Speaker 3: these little other things that were keeping track of. We

946
00:47:31,360 --> 00:47:34,279
Speaker 3: each had our own statistic for our job that we

947
00:47:34,360 --> 00:47:36,959
Speaker 3: had to mark on a graph, not just every week,

948
00:47:37,000 --> 00:47:40,319
Speaker 3: we had to market every day and compare how much

949
00:47:40,360 --> 00:47:42,960
Speaker 3: we had done that day to the day before. And

950
00:47:43,040 --> 00:47:45,799
Speaker 3: not only that, but when we were in the classroom,

951
00:47:46,120 --> 00:47:49,040
Speaker 3: when we were studying, we also had to keep track

952
00:47:49,080 --> 00:47:52,640
Speaker 3: of our student points, which was like three points for

953
00:47:52,680 --> 00:47:56,160
Speaker 3: every definition you looked up, like ten points for every

954
00:47:56,280 --> 00:47:58,600
Speaker 3: page you read. So it's like we're keeping track of

955
00:47:58,640 --> 00:48:01,360
Speaker 3: so many things in a day. I'm like, if only

956
00:48:01,680 --> 00:48:07,439
Speaker 3: I could get my kids to do this. I don't

957
00:48:07,480 --> 00:48:08,799
Speaker 3: know how the man is do it.

958
00:48:09,120 --> 00:48:11,880
Speaker 4: I mean their torture essentially.

959
00:48:11,640 --> 00:48:14,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, we're good kids, compliant, Like that's what I was wondering, Like,

960
00:48:14,560 --> 00:48:17,040
Speaker 2: were there rebellious kids or did everyone just kind of

961
00:48:17,120 --> 00:48:18,200
Speaker 2: do what they were supposed to do.

962
00:48:18,520 --> 00:48:21,920
Speaker 3: There were a few rebellious kids, but it was like

963
00:48:22,239 --> 00:48:24,840
Speaker 3: they would get assigned to another group which was called

964
00:48:24,880 --> 00:48:28,120
Speaker 3: like the Governess group, or there was a precursor to it,

965
00:48:28,200 --> 00:48:31,520
Speaker 3: but where they were basically isolated from other people, weren't

966
00:48:31,520 --> 00:48:34,360
Speaker 3: allowed to talk to them, and they would do even

967
00:48:34,440 --> 00:48:35,680
Speaker 3: heavier manual labor.

968
00:48:35,960 --> 00:48:36,440
Speaker 2: Oh wow.

969
00:48:36,680 --> 00:48:40,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, And so you know, sometimes those kids were older kids.

970
00:48:40,400 --> 00:48:42,719
Speaker 3: On a couple occasions they were younger kids, but there

971
00:48:42,760 --> 00:48:45,520
Speaker 3: was sort of nowhere to go, Like where where could they?

972
00:48:45,680 --> 00:48:48,160
Speaker 3: Like they could rebel great, now they're in trouble.

973
00:48:48,480 --> 00:48:49,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, there's a price to pay.

974
00:48:50,520 --> 00:48:53,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, and and like like then what they all the

975
00:48:53,960 --> 00:48:56,799
Speaker 3: only place to go from being rebellious is to back

976
00:48:56,840 --> 00:48:58,279
Speaker 3: to being compliant.

977
00:48:57,880 --> 00:48:58,719
Speaker 2: Right, right?

978
00:48:59,080 --> 00:49:01,719
Speaker 1: Did you feel like you're any special treatment because for

979
00:49:01,840 --> 00:49:04,480
Speaker 1: your uncle was or did other people think that you were?

980
00:49:04,680 --> 00:49:05,800
Speaker 1: Did that make it difficult?

981
00:49:06,120 --> 00:49:10,760
Speaker 3: So? I think that in some ways I got special

982
00:49:10,840 --> 00:49:13,080
Speaker 3: treatment in that well, I do think that some of

983
00:49:13,080 --> 00:49:16,160
Speaker 3: the adults were nicer to me. In general, I was

984
00:49:16,160 --> 00:49:18,400
Speaker 3: doing all the same work and all the same duties

985
00:49:18,440 --> 00:49:21,360
Speaker 3: and everything else that everyone else was doing. But like,

986
00:49:21,440 --> 00:49:23,640
Speaker 3: for instance, me being allowed to visit my mom in

987
00:49:23,719 --> 00:49:27,279
Speaker 3: Florida like other people didn't have that. But also other

988
00:49:27,320 --> 00:49:31,120
Speaker 3: people didn't have their mom gone, but actually some people

989
00:49:31,160 --> 00:49:33,319
Speaker 3: did have one of their parents who was completely non

990
00:49:33,400 --> 00:49:39,080
Speaker 3: in scientology. So I think that I got better treatment,

991
00:49:39,280 --> 00:49:42,280
Speaker 3: and I think that I got much worse treatment because

992
00:49:42,360 --> 00:49:45,359
Speaker 3: for the same reasons, for the reason of my name,

993
00:49:45,400 --> 00:49:47,640
Speaker 3: I got to read worse and better at times.

994
00:49:47,840 --> 00:49:51,759
Speaker 2: Right, the constant tracking all of the little things you

995
00:49:51,760 --> 00:49:55,600
Speaker 2: have to do every day, it's so systematized because you know,

996
00:49:55,760 --> 00:49:59,239
Speaker 2: the cults overwhelmed people's time, the overwhelmed people's time and

997
00:49:59,320 --> 00:50:02,920
Speaker 2: their like having to have a task at all times,

998
00:50:02,960 --> 00:50:05,400
Speaker 2: because then you're not going to like connect with anyone

999
00:50:05,440 --> 00:50:08,560
Speaker 2: and then share with anyone or like think yeah, yeah,

1000
00:50:08,600 --> 00:50:11,160
Speaker 2: start to think maybe this isn't the way, Like you

1001
00:50:11,160 --> 00:50:13,879
Speaker 2: don't have time to do that because you're just constantly

1002
00:50:14,160 --> 00:50:17,799
Speaker 2: there's constantly a task, and then you're isolated within that

1003
00:50:18,000 --> 00:50:20,600
Speaker 2: as well, because there's no fun, there's no connection, there's

1004
00:50:20,600 --> 00:50:22,759
Speaker 2: no free time. I mean, it just sounds miserable.

1005
00:50:23,080 --> 00:50:25,759
Speaker 3: I'm sorry, No, I mean that's fine. I mean that's

1006
00:50:25,800 --> 00:50:31,839
Speaker 3: the I haven't experienced the opposite of that, so it'd

1007
00:50:31,880 --> 00:50:34,440
Speaker 3: be a lot worse. Yeah, if you went from something

1008
00:50:34,480 --> 00:50:37,120
Speaker 3: different and then into that, Like for instance, my brother

1009
00:50:37,840 --> 00:50:40,840
Speaker 3: was like eight when we came back in and he

1010
00:50:40,880 --> 00:50:42,600
Speaker 3: had a little bit of time in the regular world,

1011
00:50:42,600 --> 00:50:45,200
Speaker 3: and I can imagine that. Okay, on one hand, it's

1012
00:50:45,320 --> 00:50:48,160
Speaker 3: nice that he got some regular time, but it's almost

1013
00:50:48,280 --> 00:50:54,160
Speaker 3: worse too that you would be having this contrast there. Right, Wow,

1014
00:50:54,400 --> 00:50:56,359
Speaker 3: I'm missing out on all these great things I could

1015
00:50:56,360 --> 00:50:57,160
Speaker 3: be experiencing.

1016
00:50:57,440 --> 00:50:57,879
Speaker 1: Right. Yeah.

1017
00:50:57,920 --> 00:50:59,760
Speaker 2: People used to ask me, I mean, it was nowhere

1018
00:50:59,800 --> 00:51:02,480
Speaker 2: near what scientology does at all, because I had a

1019
00:51:02,560 --> 00:51:05,080
Speaker 2: relatively normal childhood. But people will ask me that sometimes

1020
00:51:05,120 --> 00:51:07,800
Speaker 2: about Mormonism as well. They're like, was it so weird?

1021
00:51:07,920 --> 00:51:10,799
Speaker 2: And I'm like, seem normal to me. Baptisms for the dead,

1022
00:51:10,800 --> 00:51:12,200
Speaker 2: that was just the thing that we did. I mean,

1023
00:51:12,239 --> 00:51:14,560
Speaker 2: I don't know, I didn't know anything else.

1024
00:51:15,520 --> 00:51:18,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, And also just thinking about the high control of

1025
00:51:18,280 --> 00:51:20,319
Speaker 1: religion I was raised, and like I'll think sometimes like

1026
00:51:20,520 --> 00:51:23,640
Speaker 1: would this person have been able to do that? And

1027
00:51:23,680 --> 00:51:26,960
Speaker 1: I'm like, no, Like nobody outside of it would be

1028
00:51:27,040 --> 00:51:30,319
Speaker 1: able to do it because they weren't made to, right,

1029
00:51:30,840 --> 00:51:35,800
Speaker 1: Like babies sat through our long meetings silently.

1030
00:51:35,480 --> 00:51:37,920
Speaker 2: Because crying was weren't punishment.

1031
00:51:38,200 --> 00:51:40,279
Speaker 4: Yes, but you just do what you have to do.

1032
00:51:40,960 --> 00:51:44,200
Speaker 1: It's so strange how adaptable we are as kids. And

1033
00:51:44,400 --> 00:51:47,400
Speaker 1: it must be so crazy to have your own children

1034
00:51:47,440 --> 00:51:51,040
Speaker 1: now and see the whole thing now through the eyes

1035
00:51:51,080 --> 00:51:53,960
Speaker 1: of a mother and being like, whoa, it just must

1036
00:51:54,000 --> 00:51:55,160
Speaker 1: be a wild experience.

1037
00:51:55,560 --> 00:51:58,319
Speaker 3: Yeah, that is the best. That's the closest I get

1038
00:51:58,400 --> 00:52:02,680
Speaker 3: to having the other experience, And that's the and And

1039
00:52:02,719 --> 00:52:05,520
Speaker 3: you're right, it's like, you know now, going through that

1040
00:52:05,600 --> 00:52:10,080
Speaker 3: with them, it is like it like I was like, okay,

1041
00:52:10,480 --> 00:52:12,480
Speaker 3: you know, I went through that, but I'm fine. And

1042
00:52:12,520 --> 00:52:15,480
Speaker 3: when you see all the opportunities they have, all the

1043
00:52:15,560 --> 00:52:18,080
Speaker 3: love that they get, all the love that I give them,

1044
00:52:18,360 --> 00:52:21,000
Speaker 3: it's like, wow, I really missed out on a lot

1045
00:52:21,680 --> 00:52:23,319
Speaker 3: and really got a lot of things that I wish

1046
00:52:23,360 --> 00:52:27,640
Speaker 3: I missed out. Yeah, yeah, yeah, So that does help

1047
00:52:27,680 --> 00:52:31,560
Speaker 3: me see the like stark difference between their childhood and mine.

1048
00:52:31,800 --> 00:52:35,080
Speaker 2: And that concludes Part one. Stay tuned next week for

1049
00:52:35,360 --> 00:52:38,280
Speaker 2: part two. There's a lot more to get into. Megan.

1050
00:52:39,760 --> 00:52:43,359
Speaker 2: Do you think that you would spend the night at

1051
00:52:43,360 --> 00:52:44,680
Speaker 2: the Celebrity Center.

1052
00:52:44,520 --> 00:52:47,920
Speaker 1: Oh, the Scientology Celebrity Center on Franklin. That's the most

1053
00:52:47,960 --> 00:52:50,040
Speaker 1: beautiful place I've ever seen in my entire life that

1054
00:52:50,080 --> 00:52:52,279
Speaker 1: I tried to move into and they told me this

1055
00:52:52,400 --> 00:52:53,520
Speaker 1: is the Scientology Center.

1056
00:52:53,560 --> 00:52:55,719
Speaker 4: Not an apartment complex. Yes, I would.

1057
00:52:55,640 --> 00:52:58,000
Speaker 2: Wait the Franklin. What does the Celebrity Center? Not the

1058
00:52:58,040 --> 00:52:58,759
Speaker 2: Sunset One?

1059
00:52:58,960 --> 00:52:59,360
Speaker 4: I think so?

1060
00:52:59,480 --> 00:53:02,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, OK, because there's too many centers, to be honest, and.

1061
00:53:02,480 --> 00:53:04,560
Speaker 1: Maybe they have too at this point. Honestly, there's so

1062
00:53:04,600 --> 00:53:10,080
Speaker 1: many celebs clamoring. True, yes, if it's the Franklin One. Indeed,

1063
00:53:10,560 --> 00:53:12,400
Speaker 1: my friend used to live across the street and she

1064
00:53:12,520 --> 00:53:15,239
Speaker 1: had a cat that was like an outdoor cat, and

1065
00:53:15,280 --> 00:53:17,399
Speaker 1: I always wanted to put a little camera in its

1066
00:53:17,440 --> 00:53:19,640
Speaker 1: bell and just have it run around and there because

1067
00:53:19,719 --> 00:53:21,279
Speaker 1: I want to see.

1068
00:53:21,280 --> 00:53:24,799
Speaker 4: Inside that place so badly. And yeah, I would spend

1069
00:53:24,800 --> 00:53:27,160
Speaker 4: the night there. It's really creepy what she said.

1070
00:53:27,200 --> 00:53:29,120
Speaker 1: I don't know if it was in this week's episode

1071
00:53:29,200 --> 00:53:31,399
Speaker 1: or if we're getting into the next but like there's

1072
00:53:31,480 --> 00:53:34,279
Speaker 1: people in trouble in those places that are like living

1073
00:53:34,320 --> 00:53:36,480
Speaker 1: in the basement just doing manual labor.

1074
00:53:36,640 --> 00:53:39,200
Speaker 2: That yeah, being supervised at all times. I think we'll

1075
00:53:39,200 --> 00:53:42,400
Speaker 2: talk about that next week. But yeah, it is fucking crazy.

1076
00:53:42,520 --> 00:53:46,200
Speaker 1: You have to stick around for next week's episod episode, y'all.

1077
00:53:46,239 --> 00:53:50,120
Speaker 1: It's it's wild, like it definitely. I mean my spending

1078
00:53:50,160 --> 00:53:52,640
Speaker 1: the night would be more of a detective journey and

1079
00:53:52,680 --> 00:53:54,160
Speaker 1: not just a celebrity.

1080
00:53:54,239 --> 00:53:54,520
Speaker 4: Stay.

1081
00:53:54,880 --> 00:53:57,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, let me say that. I mean, like I said,

1082
00:53:57,680 --> 00:53:59,880
Speaker 2: I spent those three hours there. I think that was

1083
00:54:00,080 --> 00:54:00,600
Speaker 2: enough for me.

1084
00:54:00,920 --> 00:54:01,280
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1085
00:54:01,480 --> 00:54:03,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's so long. It was really long, three hours.

1086
00:54:04,040 --> 00:54:06,520
Speaker 4: What would you say the like smell was, Does it

1087
00:54:06,560 --> 00:54:09,040
Speaker 4: smell like a mall? Does it smell like an old house?

1088
00:54:09,160 --> 00:54:10,640
Speaker 4: Does it smell like an H and M.

1089
00:54:10,680 --> 00:54:13,280
Speaker 2: I feel like it smells like a museum, because it

1090
00:54:12,960 --> 00:54:15,680
Speaker 2: was literally it is like a museum. Like they take you,

1091
00:54:15,680 --> 00:54:18,480
Speaker 2: you know, they take you to like watch a little

1092
00:54:18,520 --> 00:54:20,640
Speaker 2: movie about l Ron Hubbard and look at all of

1093
00:54:20,680 --> 00:54:23,120
Speaker 2: his like stuff and like give you this whole spiel

1094
00:54:23,120 --> 00:54:26,120
Speaker 2: about what an amazing person he was. I don't remember specifically,

1095
00:54:26,120 --> 00:54:28,279
Speaker 2: but it was it definitely felt like, oh, they're taking

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00:54:28,320 --> 00:54:30,640
Speaker 2: us through the like museum experience. And then we went

1097
00:54:30,680 --> 00:54:34,120
Speaker 2: into the like test rooms, which I vaguely I don't

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00:54:34,160 --> 00:54:35,920
Speaker 2: really I don't remember a smell.

1099
00:54:35,960 --> 00:54:38,480
Speaker 1: But okay, I thought you're gonna say I don't remember anything,

1100
00:54:38,520 --> 00:54:39,320
Speaker 1: and I was like, they.

1101
00:54:39,160 --> 00:54:40,239
Speaker 4: Got to right.

1102
00:54:41,880 --> 00:54:44,239
Speaker 2: Classroom kind of but no, it was like just a

1103
00:54:44,280 --> 00:54:45,959
Speaker 2: big room where they separate people.

1104
00:54:46,560 --> 00:54:47,200
Speaker 4: This is very weird.

1105
00:54:47,360 --> 00:54:51,960
Speaker 1: Anyway, Okay, Well, next week's episode has even more what

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00:54:52,000 --> 00:54:52,440
Speaker 1: do you I mean?

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00:54:52,480 --> 00:54:53,800
Speaker 4: Can you call it juice?

1108
00:54:53,840 --> 00:54:57,360
Speaker 1: It's it's so sad that seems flippant to call it that,

1109
00:54:57,560 --> 00:55:00,799
Speaker 1: but it does. She goes deeper on all of these

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Speaker 1: topics and more, so, please stick around for next week's episode.

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00:55:04,880 --> 00:55:06,560
Speaker 4: As always, remembered to riatas.

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00:55:06,440 --> 00:55:10,520
Speaker 1: Five stars and buy our merch, buy our merch, and

1113
00:55:11,239 --> 00:55:14,400
Speaker 1: remember to follow your Oh you have another one.

1114
00:55:14,280 --> 00:55:17,120
Speaker 2: Which is at bit dot l y slash trust me Merch.

1115
00:55:17,440 --> 00:55:18,720
Speaker 4: Those shirts are so cute.

1116
00:55:18,760 --> 00:55:22,200
Speaker 1: And then finally, remember to follow your gut, watch out

1117
00:55:22,200 --> 00:55:22,720
Speaker 1: for red.

1118
00:55:22,560 --> 00:55:31,680
Speaker 2: Flags and never ever trust me h Ley. Trust Me

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00:55:31,719 --> 00:55:35,440
Speaker 2: as produced by Kirsten Woodward, Gabby Rapp and Steve Delemator.

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00:55:35,000 --> 00:55:36,960
Speaker 4: With special thanks to Stacy Para.

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00:55:36,840 --> 00:55:39,279
Speaker 2: And our theme song was composed by Holly amber Church.

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00:55:39,520 --> 00:55:42,400
Speaker 1: You can find us on Instagram at trust Me Podcast,

1123
00:55:42,560 --> 00:55:45,919
Speaker 1: Twitter at trust Me Cult Pod, or on TikTok at

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00:55:46,000 --> 00:55:47,640
Speaker 1: trust Me Cult Podcast.

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00:55:47,840 --> 00:55:51,200
Speaker 2: I'm Ula Lola on Instagram and Ola Lola on Twitter.

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00:55:50,920 --> 00:55:54,560
Speaker 1: And I am Megan Elizabeth eleven on Instagram and Babraham

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00:55:54,640 --> 00:55:55,680
Speaker 1: Hicks on Twitter.

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00:55:55,840 --> 00:55:58,160
Speaker 2: Remember to rate and review and spread the word