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Speaker 1: Hey everyone, This is Elisa Donovan and welcome to Killer Thriller. Today,

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Speaker 1: I am continuing my conversation with actress and writer Kirsten Vang'sness,

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Speaker 1: but this time we're stepping away from criminal minds and

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Speaker 1: into one of Lifetime's most disturbing true crime films, Amish

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Speaker 1: Stud The Eli Weaver Story. Based on a shocking real case,

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Speaker 1: the film tells the story of Eli Weaver, an Amish

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Speaker 1: husband who secretly created an online identity called Amish stud.

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Speaker 1: He carried on multiple affairs and ultimately conspired with his

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Speaker 1: mistress to murder his wife. But what makes this case

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Speaker 1: so fascinating isn't just the crime itself. It's the psychology

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Speaker 1: behind living a double life, the power of manipulation, and

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Speaker 1: how ordinary people can convince themselves to do the unthinkable.

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Speaker 1: This movie that I just watched, and it's one of

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Speaker 1: these things where you feel like this can't be real,

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Speaker 1: and yet it is. And it's called Amish Stud The

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Speaker 1: Eli Weaver Story. So for people who aren't familiar with

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Speaker 1: the Elia Weaver case, just walk us through what happened.

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Speaker 2: Oh my goodness, you have you do this all the time,

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Speaker 2: But I feel something in my heart when you're talking

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Speaker 2: about real people. I feel in my heart there's a

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Speaker 2: woman in jail, and there's a family that lost people,

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Speaker 2: and most these women that there's a man who did

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Speaker 2: this stuff. Like they're real people that exist. And I

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Speaker 2: it's very strange to like talk about the the worst

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Speaker 2: days of people's lives and be like yeah, and I

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Speaker 2: want to acknowledge that because it is crazy. So the

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Speaker 2: Amish community, you know, which is a very the very

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Speaker 2: very strict religion, and then there's a sort of an

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Speaker 2: adjacent thing, which is Mennonite, which is a slightly less rulsy.

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Speaker 2: So Ambish people are not allowed to drive, they have

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Speaker 2: to wear a certain sort of costume. I'm using. I'm

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Speaker 2: speaking draft and I apologize for any Amish people that

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Speaker 2: have decided to listen to a radio program. So Menonite,

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Speaker 2: they dress modestly, but they can still they can move

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Speaker 2: about the world a little bit more. But Mennonite Amish

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Speaker 2: people can sort of co habitate. And so this guy,

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Speaker 2: Eli Weaver, my understanding is that he did not want

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Speaker 2: to be with his wife anymore. His father was sort

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Speaker 2: of up in the he was higher and higher up

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Speaker 2: in the religion. He maybe he marries this woman you know,

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Speaker 2: she's Amish, they have children. He decides he wants to

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Speaker 2: I mean, who knows what he was doing beforehand, I mean,

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Speaker 2: before all of this. But he goes on a Tinder

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Speaker 2: situation SA sort of and posts a picture of himself

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Speaker 2: and women find him attractive. And these are just women,

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Speaker 2: non Amish women that end up, you know, enjoying spending

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Speaker 2: time with him in a carnal way. And then he

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Speaker 2: starts like suggesting to them, Hey, you like me so

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Speaker 2: much because he's charming. And this is the problem is

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Speaker 2: that charming isn't always good ye And they're like, oh,

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Speaker 2: I like you so much, and he's like, yeah, how

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Speaker 2: much do you like me? Because I got this wife? See,

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Speaker 2: and if we didn't have her in the picture, you'd

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Speaker 2: have all this to yourself. Widget Thank goodness for these

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Speaker 2: women freaks them out and they're like, no, thank you, sir.

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Speaker 2: And meanwhile, how is he getting to these women's houses? Right?

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Speaker 2: How is he getting to go to some other woman?

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Speaker 2: I think it was happening in Ohio? How is he

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Speaker 2: driving into the city to meet these women because he

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Speaker 2: has a horse and buggy, he has a friend, and

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Speaker 2: the friend she barb your character. Yes, she would drive him.

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Speaker 2: And not only that, but and Barb came from a

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Speaker 2: in my understanding, and what I learned is that Barb

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Speaker 2: came from I'm sure she had all kinds of nonsense

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Speaker 2: happened to her when she was young. She was sort of,

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Speaker 2: you know, cut out from the from the group in

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Speaker 2: a way because of her promiscuity and things like that.

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Speaker 2: She didn't feel like she was She wasn't particularly confident

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Speaker 2: about herself. And here's this man that she finds attractive

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Speaker 2: who wants to touch her and kiss her and stuff,

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Speaker 2: and she doesn't mind driving him to see these ladies,

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Speaker 2: so she starts doing that. Then he suggests to her,

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Speaker 2: because none of these women are picking up, but he's

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Speaker 2: throwing down, why don't you help me kill my wife

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Speaker 2: because I love you and bless her heart, and she's married.

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Speaker 2: They look up how to kill someone on her computer. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: the story is is that he talked her into shooting

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Speaker 2: his wife, and then when they arrested her in Ohio,

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Speaker 2: my understanding is that she said, can I have a lawyer?

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Speaker 2: And they said, you can have a lawyer if you

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Speaker 2: ask for one, and she didn't understand. My understanding is

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Speaker 2: she did not understand that they they took her saying

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Speaker 2: can I have a lawyer? She thought that that was

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Speaker 2: her asking and that they didn't give it to her,

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Speaker 2: and so she never asked, so she didn't get a lawyer.

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Speaker 2: Then they pushed her. She confessed. She said she couldn't

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Speaker 2: really remember the whole thing about where the gunshot was

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Speaker 2: far away. Close up, she says she never came into

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Speaker 2: the room. The gunshot appears to be close to the chest.

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Speaker 2: They went to Eli, the man who had gone to

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Speaker 2: all these women, and said, well, you call my wife

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Speaker 2: from me, and said, hey, we already got a confession

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Speaker 2: from her. This is my understanding of what happened. I

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Speaker 2: could be wrong. I'm just an actress. They said, do

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Speaker 2: you You don't really need to confess because we have

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Speaker 2: a confession. And so what happened was she came to

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Speaker 2: trial and she was like, I love this mann and

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Speaker 2: when we get out of jail, we're going to be together,

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Speaker 2: blah blah blah. And then he came in and he

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Speaker 2: was the last person to testify against her, and he said, yeah,

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Speaker 2: she did it. I didn't, and so she got more years,

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Speaker 2: more time. Yeah. And when they asked him, why didn't

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Speaker 2: you just divorce your wife. He said, this just seemed easier.

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Speaker 2: This is like, again, unbelievable.

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Speaker 1: So when I'm watching this movie, I'm going this cannot

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Speaker 1: be real. And oftentimes and this is one of those times.

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Speaker 2: And this woman when they went to go to her computer,

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Speaker 2: she had like so many searches on how to kill

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Speaker 2: someone with rat poison. Now she tried to kill his

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Speaker 2: wife with rat poison, but she did the research. Like

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Speaker 2: it's crazy.

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Speaker 1: It's crazy the amount of things that they did that

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Speaker 1: they did not think would be found out. Or I

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Speaker 1: mean the fact that his online name on these dating

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Speaker 1: sites was Amish stud It's like, nope, this is not

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Speaker 1: a fabrication.

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Speaker 2: And believe me, when you get the call to be

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Speaker 2: like hey do you want to be in this movie?

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Speaker 2: And the title I saw it and what was so crazy?

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Speaker 2: This is a true story. I was driving in on

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Speaker 2: my street and my friend, my friend's friend was fixing

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Speaker 2: her screen door. This is crazy story six your screen door.

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Speaker 2: She's like, oh, here, this is my friend and I

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Speaker 2: told you the actor else is Carpenter. I'm like, oh, hi,

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Speaker 2: nice to meet. And I'm like, oh my god, he's

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Speaker 2: so cool. I go back. It was Luke Hi I'm Kirsten.

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Speaker 2: I go back home. I get home and I had

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Speaker 2: known about Luke because Luke was my friend's friend and

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Speaker 2: I know he's I was like, oh, he was in

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Speaker 2: he was in Bros. Uh and I love that movie

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Speaker 2: and he's queer like me, and but he plays a

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Speaker 2: straight guy and a lot of things and and uh.

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Speaker 2: I get home like that night and my agent's like, hey,

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Speaker 2: do you want to do this movie. It's called The

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Speaker 2: Amish Stud and the guy playing the stud is Luke McFarlane.

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Speaker 2: Oh met him And I was like what And of course,

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Speaker 2: and I'm with a cisgender straight man, so you know,

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Speaker 2: there's they can get intimidated and you're like, I'm gonna

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Speaker 2: go away to Canada and you know, roll around right.

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Speaker 2: And then when you're like, oh, this is gonna be

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Speaker 2: the funnest thing in the world. Because I'm queer, he's queer.

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Speaker 2: We had the goofiest we had never really met, aside

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Speaker 2: from the you know, the infamous high I mean grain Door.

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Speaker 2: And then I get there. On our first day, we

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Speaker 2: are in a car making out and so much fun.

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Speaker 2: It was like Hi, Hi, and then you're just like like,

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Speaker 2: We're off to the races. Now now everything else is

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Speaker 2: going to be easy. It was felt so at home

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Speaker 2: because a lot of times, because I'm so straight passing,

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Speaker 2: I can get into environments where I'm like, oh, it

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Speaker 2: felt it can be a little heteronormative, which is a

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Speaker 2: hard thing to explain if you're a straight person. You

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Speaker 2: don't know. You're like, oh, I don't know what it's like,

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Speaker 2: because it can be odd. So it felt really freeing

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Speaker 2: to do all the stuff we had to do, and

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Speaker 2: we had a really good time. And anyway, it's crazy

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Speaker 2: because it's so horribly sad but also so crazy. And

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Speaker 2: she was so in love with.

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Speaker 1: She was so in love with him, that's what's so heartbreaking,

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Speaker 1: and that he was leading this double triple, quadruple life

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Speaker 1: like he had so many women.

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Speaker 2: She really thought that this was going to get her,

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Speaker 2: you know, hot dude to love her, which is probably yes.

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Speaker 2: I think she wanted more than anything or her whole life.

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Speaker 1: The court scene at the end with it's so you're

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Speaker 1: heartbreaking in it because you see this woman where her

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Speaker 1: own her actual husband is in the courtroom and he

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Speaker 1: leaves because it's clear that this woman loves someone else, and.

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Speaker 2: What is he doing there?

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Speaker 1: So he leaves her, and then the man that she

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Speaker 1: thinks she's done all this for comes in and essentially

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Speaker 1: lies and says it's all her fault and it's just heartbreak,

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Speaker 1: and it feels like, once again, the woman gets the

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Speaker 1: very short end of the stick here.

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Speaker 2: I think about it all the time. I think about I.

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Speaker 2: I I love I love that. That's the lifetime movie

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Speaker 2: I've gotten to do. Like I love that, Like that's

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Speaker 2: very happy. Yes, I love the whole I loved doing it.

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Speaker 2: I love all of that, And I'm it does not

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Speaker 2: escape me that there's like someone in a jail cell again. Monsters,

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Speaker 2: great monsters, behavior, reprehensible. Don't really know if she even

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Speaker 2: knows what she actually did, Like I don't really know.

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Speaker 2: We will never know did she shoot or did she

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Speaker 2: stand at the doorway and see that she had already

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Speaker 2: been shot and that her brain just went off, Oh wow,

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Speaker 2: So you.

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Speaker 1: Think maybe he did it and they don't know.

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Speaker 2: I don't know because some of the stuff that I

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Speaker 2: read it was like the gunshot was so close and

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Speaker 2: she I believe again speaking in draft, speaking and draft

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Speaker 2: because you're hearing an actress tell you what she remembers.

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Speaker 2: But also you know, all the character choices you make

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Speaker 2: or whatever. But I believe that they even like why

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Speaker 2: detect her or her or whatever? But I she maintained

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Speaker 2: that she never went into the room and the gunshot

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Speaker 2: was close range, so she maintains she had a shotgun

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Speaker 2: from far away and he left to go fishing or something. Right,

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Speaker 2: the children found her. It's like and the and the

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Speaker 2: woman who has been accused Barb will not she'll get

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Speaker 2: out of jail in like twenty thirty three. And I

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Speaker 2: believe I could be wrong, but I think he got out.

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Speaker 1: So we just looked he was up Eli was up

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Speaker 1: for parole, oh and did not make it. And his

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Speaker 1: next parole eligibility is twenty thirty two, so he is

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Speaker 1: still in prison at least.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, she's up for Pearl. I think in twenty thirty three.

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Speaker 2: That or twenty thirty or something that's running in my

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Speaker 2: head and not that, like I don't Yeah, but it

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Speaker 2: is wild because that's exactly the thing. Like I have

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Speaker 2: done some crazy things. I have not heard another human,

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Speaker 2: it's clear, besides myself, but I have done some crazy

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Speaker 2: things on dopamine because I had a crush on somebody. Yes, right, right,

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Speaker 2: It's just that yep, super extended right on massive steroids.

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Speaker 1: What do you think that Barb saw in Eli or

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Speaker 1: was it just that he just paid attention to her that.

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Speaker 2: Same thing that all of us have seen in that.

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Speaker 2: I mean, Goddess, God, all the angels love you. If

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Speaker 2: you have not fallen prey to a fantastic love bomb,

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Speaker 2: I mean all of us have done that. I've gotten

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Speaker 2: engaged to that where I've been like, this seems like

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Speaker 2: a great it.

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Speaker 1: Right, It's literally like the stars in the eyes.

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Speaker 2: Like the car even look like a pictures of me

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Speaker 2: and I have crazy eyes, and I'm like, it's fine,

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Speaker 2: and I've made it's great. It's great, and you don't

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Speaker 2: notice and that you know, I have this show that

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Speaker 2: I wrote about, I'm about to start touring it, and

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Speaker 2: I filmed it because it's incredibly valuable. I think for

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Speaker 2: feminine bet creatures about online dating, we can fall prey

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Speaker 2: to things because there are people. We make assumptions that

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Speaker 2: people are coming with the same intentions as us. Simple

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Speaker 2: and one of the things that I learned in that

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Speaker 2: is that a feminine bet creature, the way our hormones

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Speaker 2: move is when we hardcore make out with somebody, we

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Speaker 2: have a rise in the bonding hormones, right, huge rise.

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Speaker 2: A masculine bent person, the testosterone cancels out that bonding

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Speaker 2: hormone within forty eight hours. So a woman or someone

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Speaker 2: who has a lot of feminine hormones can be chemically

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Speaker 2: addicted to someone they don't even like up to like

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Speaker 2: six months. And wow, and I'm talking hardcore makeout. That

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Speaker 2: doesn't necessarily mean intercourse. That truly means but that physical

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Speaker 2: that like that physical connection, the touch. You can think

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Speaker 2: that and that's what makes us crazy. That's why I mean,

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Speaker 2: I'm all for, like, go do whatever you want with

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Speaker 2: your body, as often as you want, with whoever you want.

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Speaker 2: But I learned the hard way that like, if I

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Speaker 2: make out with somebody, I will get tricked that they

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Speaker 2: are somehow the answer to all of my problems and

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Speaker 2: the greatest thing that has ever existed, and they could

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Speaker 2: never and they're the best. And they like breathing and

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Speaker 2: I like breathing, So clearly, leman to like, I think

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Speaker 2: that is what And you add that someone who's charming

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Speaker 2: someone who I had heard this thing probably from Instagram,

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Speaker 2: but I think it's true. It's like the difference between

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Speaker 2: a narcissist. There there's a key difference with like a

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Speaker 2: narcissist or someone with maybe a bad narcissist, because everybody

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Speaker 2: you know who there are people that will go into

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Speaker 2: a room and they'll look around and they'll be able

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Speaker 2: to look at the people and be able to extract

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Speaker 2: what they want. Right, Oh, I can see what you like,

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Speaker 2: so I'm going to do what I do to extract.

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Speaker 2: There is a version of that that's good, which is

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Speaker 2: where you go into a room and you see, oh,

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Speaker 2: I see what and you both extract and you give.

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Speaker 2: So you both go oh I in exchange. Yeah, I

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Speaker 2: could use that, but you know what, you should meet

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Speaker 2: that person and you so it's like you're connecting things.

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Speaker 2: But there's a certain kind of charisma of someone who

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Speaker 2: has charisma but isn't using it for good for good, right,

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Speaker 2: They're using it for just their own purpose. And and

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Speaker 2: I think that's important for us to realist, because isn't

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Speaker 2: it's fine, but when you're you're lucky enough to have all,

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Speaker 2: it's your job to not use it to prey upon people.

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Speaker 1: Because it certainly seems that some of this is based

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Speaker 1: on Barb's loneliness, right, And.

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Speaker 3: You look at it.

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Speaker 2: You look at pictures of her and like, bless her heart,

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Speaker 2: Like it doesn't seem it seems like you know, I

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Speaker 2: think a lot of times if someone had like a

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Speaker 2: skin issue when they're growing up, it makes you really insecure.

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Speaker 2: And I think it looks like she had that, Like

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Speaker 2: there are things that you know and you're growing up

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Speaker 2: in Mennonite and if she was promiscuous and you want

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Speaker 2: you feel valuable or you want to use your body

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Speaker 2: for fun and then you have to dress a certain

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Speaker 2: way and cover up this, there's like a lot of

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Speaker 2: things happening. Yeah, yeah, a lot of things.

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Speaker 1: And and his you know, exploitation of the religion, the

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Speaker 1: way he controls his wife and twisting the language to

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Speaker 1: make her submissive and do things that he wants her

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Speaker 1: to do, and her insides are going, this isn't what

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Speaker 1: my religion says, Like she can she is questioning that,

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Speaker 1: and then that's ultimately what gets her killed.

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Speaker 2: Like yeah, and I think and also the other thing

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Speaker 2: in that, I mean, we're giving away the movie, but

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Speaker 2: you should still watch it. It's it's a it's it's

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Speaker 2: strange because you're like, you can't believe this is happening.

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Speaker 2: But like he was in love he actually wasn't in

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Speaker 2: love with this other woman. They they don't explore that

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Speaker 2: a lot in the movie, but there And that's the

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Speaker 2: other thing you have to remember is there's incredibly reasonable

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Speaker 2: people that will do some crazy stuff. There was a

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Speaker 2: woman who was.

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Speaker 1: Like, you know, which one was he in love with

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Speaker 1: in real life? The one that wouldn't that wouldn't say

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Speaker 1: you stay with him, hung out with her kids and stuff.

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Speaker 2: Yes, he was like trying to like he wanted to

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Speaker 2: be with her. And I think that just like any

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Speaker 2: good uh uh, you know whatever, whatever he he has

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Speaker 2: working on him. Uh, it's like there's moments of him

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Speaker 2: where he can be the best. That woman was getting

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Speaker 2: the best of him, the best of him. And then

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Speaker 2: you think about what's going on with his wife, and

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Speaker 2: if you if you like there's a part of it.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I'm I'm like, Okay, if he had had

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Speaker 2: appropriate learning about consent or or a woman's sexual response

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Speaker 2: cycle or whatever, right, and he cared about that, and

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Speaker 2: let's say he wants to do a little power play

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Speaker 2: with his wife, there's an appropriate way to talk about that,

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Speaker 2: you know what I mean. But they're amassed and we're

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Speaker 2: losing some some resources, you know what I mean. So

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Speaker 2: there's a lot of stuff happening.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Also, because he wasn't getting physically what he wanted from

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Speaker 1: that woman, he continued to give.

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Speaker 2: Her the best. It's like that has to be a part.

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Speaker 1: Of the narcissism in some way, like I will make

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Speaker 1: her want me and the way I need to be wanted,

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Speaker 1: you know, And.

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Speaker 2: That's when it works, right, that's when if you can

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Speaker 2: get if they can fall in love with someone who

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Speaker 2: never really gives them what they want, then that person

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Speaker 2: is just pebbling. And I'm not saying that anybody out

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Speaker 2: there who is in love with a narcissts like that's

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Speaker 2: how to get them, because that is how to get them.

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Speaker 2: But you have to be able to do it organically,

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Speaker 2: because that you stop then all it all. You have

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Speaker 2: to run away. Those of you who are out there

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Speaker 2: with one, just just go get out, start entertaining the ideas. Now,

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Speaker 2: just start your imagine it. We're here from the future

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Speaker 2: to tell right, it does not get better. I just

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Speaker 2: like get better, no matter how many times they tell

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Speaker 2: you that they're you know, and no matter how many

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Speaker 2: voice memos you leave to yourself that this type Nope, sorry, yep.

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Speaker 1: And this I feel like this story it really reminds

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Speaker 1: us that human nature doesn't change and it doesn't discriminate

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Speaker 1: dependent upon what religion you are, where you live, what

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Speaker 1: your sexual orientation is.

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Speaker 2: Like, human nature is human nature is human nature, and

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Speaker 2: I mean it's wonderful, but you know, I feel like

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Speaker 2: it's just always a reminder that we can act like

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Speaker 2: a human animal or act out of our human spirit,

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Speaker 2: and it is a choice. And sometimes whether it's avoiding

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Speaker 2: cake or not stabbing someone in the face, the acting

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Speaker 2: and human spirit can be a little uncomfortable.

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Speaker 1: It can be a little uncomfortable. There is something about

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Speaker 1: this because of the premeditation of it.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes on the show we talk about impulsive things that

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Speaker 1: happen and murders in that way. But this was so premeditated,

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Speaker 1: and it's like he this kind of slow brainwashing almost

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Speaker 1: that he does of her, And look.

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Speaker 2: What there's it can go both ways. I don't know.

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Speaker 2: I'm not in that woman's I wasn't in her mind.

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Speaker 2: I would like, I don't know. It gets me through

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Speaker 2: the night thinking like, oh is it that? I mean,

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Speaker 2: this gets me through the night when I think about

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Speaker 2: all the horrible things that people do. I think, like,

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Speaker 2: oh my gosh, is it that they had it so

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Speaker 2: bad that they just assume like, well, too bad, you know,

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Speaker 2: like nobody came for me. So I don't care? Or

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Speaker 2: are there just people? I mean, it's just a question.

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Speaker 2: And I don't know. I'm not that person. I don't

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Speaker 2: wander through the world and go like it doesn't matter

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Speaker 2: whether that person lives or dies, and you know, like

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Speaker 2: I and I guess there are people like that, but

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Speaker 2: I'm constantly if you really extrapolate what you're thinking, like

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Speaker 2: you're really thinking that, are you really thinking it through?

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Speaker 2: Or when you think that you want a certain kind

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Speaker 2: of person or whatever person gone? Are you Are you

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Speaker 2: understanding that they're connected to other people? Are you understanding

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Speaker 2: that they have a mom and that they baby? You

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Speaker 2: understanding looks like like right, there's like a compartmentalization.

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Speaker 1: It must be, you know if or or are all

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Speaker 1: of the people that do these things in some form

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Speaker 1: of mental disorder.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, they think that everybody evaporates like in a video game,

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Speaker 2: like because that's not how it worked, Like, so I

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Speaker 2: don't and I don't know, is that like is that

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Speaker 2: a special skill? That I have to put myself in

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Speaker 2: the shoes that those people.

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Speaker 1: Well, I think part of being a human being is

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Speaker 1: having or a healthy which there's a broad spectrum of

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Speaker 1: what that is. But of being a healthy person is

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Speaker 1: having some amount of empathy, some amount of understanding one another.

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Speaker 2: And I mean, and again there.

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Speaker 1: Are some people that are really unjust on the edge

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Speaker 1: of that.

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Speaker 2: I can't really but I think that there's times I

400
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Speaker 2: have loads of empathy, I think, but there are times,

401
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Speaker 2: for whatever reason, that I have to be like, what

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Speaker 2: would be the normal person empathetically this situation, right, you

403
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Speaker 2: know what I mean? And that is that is still okay,

404
00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:19,919
Speaker 2: it's behavior. Let's get in trouble for the things you

405
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Speaker 2: think right, right?

406
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Speaker 1: And we can all have big feelings and they can

407
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Speaker 1: be overwhelming.

408
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Speaker 2: They don't always get to act on them.

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Speaker 1: And even like in Jail, he's hitting on the woman

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Speaker 1: who works in the store in the movie, Like, do

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Speaker 1: you know if that was dramatic license or if that

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Speaker 1: was real?

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Speaker 2: I don't. I want to believe it's real. It's got

414
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Speaker 2: to be real, you know what I mean. He's got

415
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Speaker 2: to be using that for something, ye don't. I don't

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Speaker 2: think that's the other thing is that, like you know,

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Speaker 2: there are certain kinds of people, Like I've talked to

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Speaker 2: my therapist about this, because I have I'm fascinated, you know,

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Speaker 2: by why why.

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Speaker 3: Would they do that?

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Speaker 1: Again?

422
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Speaker 2: Why would they? Why? And and you know you want

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Speaker 2: to get in there and you want to try to

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Speaker 2: fix it or you want to try to make sense

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Speaker 2: of it, and and it all boils down. I think

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Speaker 2: all boys my understanding. It's like we all have this

427
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Speaker 2: little kid, this little victim, this little something that's living

428
00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:18,520
Speaker 2: inside of us, right, and we get hurt and we

429
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Speaker 2: act out out of that. And I think that people

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Speaker 2: who have these big masks on that are doing terrible things,

431
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Speaker 2: they have that too. The difference is they can't access it.

432
00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:32,160
Speaker 2: They don't even know it's there. They don't have the

433
00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:36,600
Speaker 2: wiring to go into their body and go, hey, it's okay.

434
00:25:37,359 --> 00:25:42,480
Speaker 2: And they don't have the wiring to understand that wonder

435
00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:49,240
Speaker 2: doesn't come that the God, wonder, nature, beauty doesn't come

436
00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:53,040
Speaker 2: from anything but inside their own body. So like you

437
00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:56,760
Speaker 2: and I can sunset and be like, look at what

438
00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:02,240
Speaker 2: something the mystery of it all is made. But somebody

439
00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:07,000
Speaker 2: who isn't, who isn't who can do these things. My

440
00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:11,880
Speaker 2: understanding is they don't literally have the wiring to understand

441
00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:16,240
Speaker 2: that there's things bigger than them, right, And that is

442
00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:21,840
Speaker 2: heartbreakingly sad and also lets you know like how hopeless

443
00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:24,640
Speaker 2: it is for them. Right. The best they can do

444
00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:26,280
Speaker 2: is like do no harm.

445
00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:29,239
Speaker 1: Right, Like that would be the best case scenario is

446
00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:30,880
Speaker 1: to just not hurt.

447
00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:33,880
Speaker 2: Why they would hurt other people is because they literally

448
00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:37,240
Speaker 2: don't have the wiring to go in their own body.

449
00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:40,920
Speaker 2: So they're just kind of walking around the world and

450
00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:44,879
Speaker 2: poking at other things with a stick, either by you know,

451
00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:48,960
Speaker 2: you know, collecting massive amounts of money that they don't need,

452
00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:53,280
Speaker 2: or hurting people or whatever. They're just doing that because

453
00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:57,480
Speaker 2: they need to see something get affected, because they don't

454
00:26:57,520 --> 00:27:02,560
Speaker 2: have it inside their to be able to stare at

455
00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:07,520
Speaker 2: the universe and realize how massively significant and simultaneously important

456
00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:08,000
Speaker 2: that they are.

457
00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:12,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I think that's partly sociopathic, right. I mean,

458
00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:14,520
Speaker 1: I hate to like throw these words around, like I

459
00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:17,160
Speaker 1: fully know what they mean, and I you know, I'm

460
00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:20,119
Speaker 1: not a scientist, but I think that is part of it.

461
00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:23,920
Speaker 2: But it is not having that in there. But then

462
00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:26,800
Speaker 2: there are people and I think they are sociopathic people

463
00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:28,359
Speaker 2: who could do this, who can be like, hey, wait,

464
00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:32,560
Speaker 2: what would be the normal appropriate response to this? What

465
00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:34,600
Speaker 2: should I be doing? You know what I mean? And

466
00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:37,520
Speaker 2: they don't have the wiring necessarily be like, oh ah,

467
00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:42,000
Speaker 2: and those people probably make really great surgeons or or

468
00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:45,520
Speaker 2: like or serial killers. But I'm saying there must be

469
00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:47,160
Speaker 2: good jobs, yes, good jobs for that.

470
00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:50,480
Speaker 1: Where you're you're because they say technicians and very.

471
00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:53,159
Speaker 2: My understanding is that narcissists. I've seen this happen in

472
00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:58,959
Speaker 2: real time. It's fascinating. I have touched this. Narcissists and

473
00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:02,520
Speaker 2: people that are like true clinically bananas like that. And

474
00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:05,320
Speaker 2: I say that with compassion because I'm bananas too in

475
00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:09,000
Speaker 2: my own way, me too. Our nervous system, yes, their

476
00:28:09,080 --> 00:28:12,800
Speaker 2: their nervous system. They get calmer when they lie. Were

477
00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:15,400
Speaker 2: you and I we got caught out on something? Are

478
00:28:15,800 --> 00:28:20,080
Speaker 2: our nervous sys is all crazy? They get calmer because

479
00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:23,879
Speaker 2: the idea is not to be truthful. The idea is

480
00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:26,480
Speaker 2: to get what you want, okay, what you want right.

481
00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:28,520
Speaker 2: So that's why they can go and they can lie

482
00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:31,280
Speaker 2: in a courtroom or about something that happened because it

483
00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:34,320
Speaker 2: doesn't matter whether it's true or not isn't that crazy?

484
00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:37,760
Speaker 1: Yes, that is so fascinating, and it completely makes sense,

485
00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:41,120
Speaker 1: right because then it's simply about exactly right, like the

486
00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:43,680
Speaker 1: nervous because just as you said, if I even do

487
00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:47,560
Speaker 1: like a little fib about something or feel like I

488
00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:51,320
Speaker 1: might have hurt someone, it's like I can barely you know, breathe.

489
00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:54,560
Speaker 2: I'm like sweating, and I feel we have an internal

490
00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:57,240
Speaker 2: locust that is telling you which way to point. They

491
00:28:57,240 --> 00:28:59,720
Speaker 2: don't have that. The only thing that's pointing is what

492
00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:03,920
Speaker 2: they want. So it's like it's a very gross robot.

493
00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:06,000
Speaker 2: I would not be surprised if we find out that

494
00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:09,240
Speaker 2: all the robots, all all the narcissis are robots, right,

495
00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:12,000
Speaker 2: I mean right, they're not. It's sad. It's just the

496
00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:14,440
Speaker 2: mom and dad didn't hug them and they didn't go

497
00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:14,959
Speaker 2: to therapy.

498
00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:18,000
Speaker 1: Well, and this is you know, of all the things

499
00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:21,640
Speaker 1: that we talk about on this podcast, you know, ninety

500
00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:24,760
Speaker 1: nine point nine percent of the time, the source of

501
00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:29,080
Speaker 1: these things are you know, loneliness, lack of love, a

502
00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:34,800
Speaker 1: need for uh physical touch or being cared for, Like

503
00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:36,160
Speaker 1: all of these really aame.

504
00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:42,240
Speaker 2: What shame, what sha does to people, What an unexamined

505
00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:45,680
Speaker 2: shame does to be yes, yes, terrible.

506
00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:52,040
Speaker 1: Yes, well, I you are so wonderful and you've got

507
00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:54,840
Speaker 1: like such a great spirit. I'm so happy to have

508
00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:57,600
Speaker 1: met you, even on the screen, and I feel we're

509
00:29:57,600 --> 00:29:58,840
Speaker 1: connected with our tigers.

510
00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:01,880
Speaker 2: I know, I know. I love it. This was fun.

511
00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:03,320
Speaker 2: I really you are great.

512
00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:06,959
Speaker 1: And Eli the Amish stud The Eli Weavers Story is

513
00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:08,000
Speaker 1: streaming now.

514
00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:09,520
Speaker 2: Everyone should watch it.

515
00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:13,160
Speaker 1: And Criminal Minds Evolution.

516
00:30:13,120 --> 00:30:16,479
Speaker 2: Evolution it's currently on where currently you can see it

517
00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:19,240
Speaker 2: on Paramount Plus up to season nineteen. I have no

518
00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:23,760
Speaker 2: idea when season twenty comes out, And uh, what else

519
00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:26,240
Speaker 2: can I tell you about? I do a show called

520
00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:31,360
Speaker 2: Kirsten's Agenda on YouTube about local politics in Los Angeles.

521
00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:35,160
Speaker 2: But I think it's fascinating all kinds of politics wherever

522
00:30:35,480 --> 00:30:39,400
Speaker 2: you are and great and if you can spell my name,

523
00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:42,760
Speaker 2: which is Kirsten Banksnas you can find me on Instagram.

524
00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:46,840
Speaker 2: And when my TikTok account becomes real again, I'll be

525
00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:47,320
Speaker 2: on that too,