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Speaker 1: Pushkin, Kenny, Babyface, Edmunds is a pillar of R and B.

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Speaker 1: His discography is vast and varied, and in my opinion,

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Speaker 1: he's one of the greatest songwriters of all time. And

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Speaker 1: as a producer, he knows how to get the most

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Speaker 1: natural vocal performances from the best singers. I'm talking powerhouse

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Speaker 1: vocalists like Aretha Franklin, Whitney Houston, Beyonce, Ariana Grande, and

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Speaker 1: Stevie Wonder. As a label owner, Babyface created the Face

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Speaker 1: Records in the late eighties with famed record exec La Reid. Together,

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Speaker 1: they went on to release classic albums from Outcast, TLC

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Speaker 1: and Usher, among others. Although Babyface's career is most often

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Speaker 1: associated with pop and R and B hits, he started

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Speaker 1: writing songs in the singer songwriter tradition, pulling from influences

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Speaker 1: as surprising as James Taylor in The Beatles. He taught

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Speaker 1: himself guitar in sixth grade and started writing songs about

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Speaker 1: young love and heartbreak. Many of those experiences served as

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Speaker 1: inspiration for the hundreds of songs he's written since. On

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Speaker 1: today's episode, I talked to Babyface about those early childhood memories,

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Speaker 1: and he plays a song he wrote in high school

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Speaker 1: that he considers to be the best song he's ever written,

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Speaker 1: and it's never been released. He also talks about how

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Speaker 1: Bootsy Collins christened him Babyface and how his nickname made

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Speaker 1: female fans flock to him at the end of shows.

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Speaker 1: He also reveals how he was on the verge of

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Speaker 1: making a new album with Whitney Houston just a month

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Speaker 1: before she died. This is broken record liner notes for

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Speaker 1: the Digital Age. I'm justin Mitchman. Here's my conversation with

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Speaker 1: the Babyface from the Village Studios in La. How long

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Speaker 1: you've been playing guitar?

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Speaker 2: I started playing when I was in sixth grade, picked

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Speaker 2: it up. It was my most my brother's guitar, but

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Speaker 2: it was he had a little a band that he

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Speaker 2: was saying, and so the guitar player let him music

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Speaker 2: acoustic guitar. Brought it to the house and told us

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Speaker 2: not to touch it.

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Speaker 1: Out of that gos, I touched it. Anytime you tell

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Speaker 1: someone don't touch So it's a long time to do

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Speaker 1: with my kids. Don't touch the panel, don't touch the guitar.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, don't ever, that's a good idea.

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Speaker 1: How impactful you your older brothers on your music sensibility.

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Speaker 2: One brother in particular, Melvin, He was impactful in the

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Speaker 2: sense that he brought in that guitar. He also was

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Speaker 2: in a band Caught the Soul Innovations, and he was

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Speaker 2: like the front man, and it was it was just

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Speaker 2: incredible to watching him. He had a great voice, and

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Speaker 2: I think that's that clearly made me think that maybe

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Speaker 2: I could do something like that. You know, yeah, I

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Speaker 2: wasn't sure though.

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Speaker 1: What was it like seeing him perform?

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Speaker 2: It was great because he was a great performer and

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Speaker 2: he was like he could sing, but also and at

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Speaker 2: the time, this is like sixty nine seventy, this is

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Speaker 2: like when James Brown is hot and the Temptations that everybody,

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Speaker 2: so you had to sing as well as you had

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Speaker 2: to also be able to scream and dance like James Brown.

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Speaker 3: So he used to do all of that.

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Speaker 2: And it was pretty incredible to watch to see that,

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Speaker 2: and ultimately he ended up joining group after seven. And

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Speaker 2: it's funny when I think of who he wasn't after

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Speaker 2: seven the post to who he was as a kid,

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Speaker 2: because he had so much more energy and just dancing

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Speaker 2: and everything as a kid. So it's interesting.

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Speaker 1: What do you think the evolution was for him from

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Speaker 1: fiery James Brown kind of it's interesting.

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Speaker 3: I think he did it really well.

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Speaker 2: But then there was some other people in the neighborhood,

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Speaker 2: this guy named Alvin Omanson who is really good at

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Speaker 2: James Brown. So they used to kind of spar off

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Speaker 2: at each other, and I beat him one day, so

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Speaker 2: I think he decided I'm just gonna singh So doing

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Speaker 2: them splits that wasn't easy.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, was it a competitive thing with you guys? Like

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Speaker 1: when you saw was it was it like I want

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Speaker 1: to I want to do that, but better?

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Speaker 2: It was never competitive to me. I always thought that

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Speaker 2: he had the better voice. I always thought my brother

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Speaker 2: Kevan had the better voice. I was always just kind

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Speaker 2: of like songwriter and and just you know whatever, if

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Speaker 2: I can make my song sound good, And I was

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Speaker 2: always easy, comfortable to be in the back, so it

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Speaker 2: was I didn't have to take the lead. So in

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Speaker 2: that sense, I never competed.

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Speaker 1: What was one of the earliest songs you you loved?

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Speaker 2: I think one of my first memories, uh, I remember

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Speaker 2: in sixth grade there was I mean, obviously I love

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Speaker 2: the Jackson five when they came out, but I also

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Speaker 2: was loved Smoking Robinson the Miracles, and as a matter

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Speaker 2: of fact, one of the first songs I sang in

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Speaker 2: front of a class, I sing two songs, this song

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Speaker 2: I'm a Girl Watcher and Smoking Robinson is here I

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Speaker 2: Go Again. And me and like three other guys, we

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Speaker 2: created a little singing group and sing in front of

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Speaker 2: our class in sixth grade. And that was also the

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Speaker 2: same year that I between sixth and seventh grade, when

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Speaker 2: I sang for my brother's band.

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Speaker 3: They had an event at.

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Speaker 2: My high school, one of those mixers, and they needed

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Speaker 2: somebody to sing of Michael Jackson songs. So my brother

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Speaker 2: auditioned myself and my brother.

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Speaker 3: Kevin, and I won. I don't know how I won.

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Speaker 3: I won, And then you.

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Speaker 2: Know, I sang Who's Loving You in front of this crowd.

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Speaker 2: And that's and the thing that's what's always funny. I

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Speaker 2: can remember for the longest time when I would hear

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Speaker 2: I Want You Back, because that's the music that they

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Speaker 2: would play as I walked on the stage, and I

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Speaker 2: get so nervous just the thought of hearing that and

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Speaker 2: to walk up on that stage, I just be I

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Speaker 2: turned to mess, my heart beat beating hard, and every

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Speaker 2: now and then when I hear it done good to

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Speaker 2: do it could still get me just a little bit

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Speaker 2: to this day.

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Speaker 1: Really, Yeah, that's one of the most joyous songs of

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Speaker 1: all time.

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Speaker 3: Oh showtime.

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Speaker 1: Do you think do you think you've ever gotten over

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Speaker 1: that sort of I don't know if it's stage fright or.

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Speaker 3: I think not.

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Speaker 2: I think it's an interesting thing, those stage fright and

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Speaker 2: those triggers, those things that make you that you can't control.

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Speaker 2: And I think ultimately I thought I learned how to

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Speaker 2: control it. And then a few years ago I did

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Speaker 2: Dancing with the Stars, and I found myself right back

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Speaker 2: in that same place where I couldn't get rid of

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Speaker 2: the nerves.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you know.

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Speaker 2: And then for the longest time, to this day, there's

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Speaker 2: a song that we did. I did a remix of

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Speaker 2: the X Fi House theme, and so now when I

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Speaker 2: hear X Files, I get a little.

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Speaker 1: That song has been kicking my ass for years anyway, terrifying.

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Speaker 2: So it's funny. It's funny how how these triggers can

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Speaker 2: work for you. Yeah, music triggers.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Smoking Robinson, that's a great in terms of a songwriter.

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Speaker 1: I think we.

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Speaker 2: Forget how Smokey was amazing and just and he just

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Speaker 2: did it so natural that I think that's about how

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Speaker 2: we forget because it was like a conversation for him. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: you know, and so he clearly was a huge inspiration.

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Speaker 3: In that way.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, because you were playing guitar, did you gravitate

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Speaker 1: more towards that music, like a Bill Withers or anything.

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Speaker 2: Like that, or I liked Bill Withers, but when I

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Speaker 2: was playing. When I started playing, Bill Withers wasn't around,

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Speaker 2: and I didn't learn how to play the guitar to

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Speaker 2: learn what other guitar players were doing. My brother he

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Speaker 2: come on, he came home and played these chords. So

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Speaker 2: he started that it wasn't that part, and I added

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Speaker 2: that later, but it was first, and I was like,

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Speaker 2: looked at it. I was like, that's crazy. And then

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Speaker 2: I would go and when he'd leave, I'd go in

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Speaker 2: another room and pick up the guitar and try to

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Speaker 2: do it. The other thing is he was right handed,

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Speaker 2: so it was a right handed guitar. So that's why

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Speaker 2: to this day I played upside down.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And so at one point he came to me and said,

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Speaker 2: when he finally he catched me playing it, he walked

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Speaker 2: in and he goes, I don't care what you do,

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Speaker 2: you will never be able to play that as good

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Speaker 2: as me, And that made that pushed me to work

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Speaker 2: harder at doing it, and unfortunately was not here anymore.

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Speaker 2: But I wanted to ask him because I always thought

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Speaker 2: that was mean for him to say. But at the

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Speaker 2: same time, it just occurred to me just here recently.

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Speaker 2: Maybe he was saying that because I was left handed

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Speaker 2: right and I would never be able to finger it

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Speaker 2: the way that he could finger it, so I won't

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Speaker 2: get it quite the same.

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Speaker 3: And now it's a mystery.

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Speaker 1: It's wild that you play so like left handed as beautifully.

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Speaker 1: I just I don't know how you do it.

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Speaker 3: Well, I think it's it's however you pick up anything.

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Speaker 2: If you don't know the rules, then the rules don't count.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely.

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Speaker 2: There are certain things just that it might be easier

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Speaker 2: for me to do with there's certain things that are

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Speaker 2: harder for me to do when it's the right handed.

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Speaker 2: So you just got to figure out your way around it.

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Speaker 1: But I think once I realized you played upside down,

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Speaker 1: and when I listened to your music, your songs sound

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Speaker 1: in a way so different that sometimes I feel like, oh,

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Speaker 1: it makes sense that it's upside down, like it's the

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Speaker 1: or is there less rooted in the bass, And you

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Speaker 1: know it's just just interesting. I hear looseness, you know.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean there's probably something to that. I think.

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Speaker 2: I always like to say, even when I played and

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Speaker 2: learn things on the piano I play, I'm not really

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Speaker 2: a piano player. I learned things to support my songwriting,

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Speaker 2: and that's what I did. Then I turned that into

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Speaker 2: my first song. You know, the song you just played,

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Speaker 2: song I just played. That was like I ended up.

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Speaker 2: I didn't write Here I Go again, I go here

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Speaker 2: I go falling in love again. That was my first song,

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Speaker 2: and I wrote it for a girl because I was

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Speaker 2: like in love and stuff, and.

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Speaker 3: So the guitar really was just an instrument.

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Speaker 2: For me to get these songs out of me. And

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Speaker 2: so I wasn't really trying to learn any songs that

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Speaker 2: were on the radio, and it was all just songwriting.

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Speaker 2: So I was just learning chords to support all my

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Speaker 2: little songs.

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Speaker 1: Wow, And for you, songwriting was about writing songs for

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Speaker 1: the girls you were in love with, crushes.

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Speaker 2: On crushes, and it was it was purely kind of

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Speaker 2: an escape. So to say, wow, it wasn't anything but that.

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Speaker 2: I didn't think they were going to go anywhere. But

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Speaker 2: that was the that was the drive, and you would.

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Speaker 1: Have been like eleven twelve, ten, eleven twelve, yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 2: So started in sixth grade, start picked up, picked it up.

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Speaker 2: Then then by the time eighth grade came, I was

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Speaker 2: kind of folks swinging and had a number of little

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Speaker 2: bands I was part of, and a lot happened in

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Speaker 2: a short amount of time I was. When I look

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Speaker 2: back at it, it's kind of crazy to think of

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Speaker 2: how much we did as a little band, because obviously

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Speaker 2: you will not find today thirteen and fourteen year olds

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Speaker 2: having a band, yeah and trying to play music that way,

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Speaker 2: and yeah, not even in in rock. You know, it's

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Speaker 2: hard to find that period. And back in the day

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Speaker 2: for us, that was we were all trying to be

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Speaker 2: in a band.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. You know, how did you get to Manchild, which

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Speaker 1: was your first group you put a record out with?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And in high school, starting as a sophomore, I

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Speaker 2: joined this well created this band that we called Tarny Silver,

226
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Speaker 2: and we played from my sophomore year to my senior year.

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Speaker 3: We played everything.

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Speaker 2: We were like the go to band for the mixers,

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Speaker 2: the proms and everything, and.

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Speaker 3: In fact, we had did it so much.

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Speaker 2: One year, I think it was my last year as

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Speaker 2: a senior, there was another guy that was challenging us.

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Speaker 2: Decided to challenge us because he said he wanted to

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Speaker 2: play at the mixer that year the homecoming, and I said,

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Speaker 2: I'm fine, we don't, but people were saying, well, no,

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Speaker 2: we think we want tarns Silver to play.

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Speaker 3: So I think their band was called Destiny, and so we.

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Speaker 2: Actually had a school vote about what band will played

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Speaker 2: for the homecoming and we won.

240
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Speaker 3: It was quite disappointing to him, but dave Man.

241
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Speaker 1: Was his name.

242
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Speaker 3: But we played.

243
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Speaker 2: We played all those things, and that was playing these

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Speaker 2: colleges on the weekends. We played for you know, IU

245
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Speaker 2: and Purdue and ball State.

246
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Speaker 3: So we were like semi popular.

247
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Speaker 2: So my senior year, the drummer that we had a

248
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Speaker 2: guy named Rayferd Griffin, who's actually was a really good drummer.

249
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Speaker 2: He went on to play with Jean Lupatti and George

250
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Speaker 2: Duke and Stanley Clark, so he was an incredible player.

251
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Speaker 2: He was an incredible player. He was like way too

252
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Speaker 2: good for us. So he was in our band and

253
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Speaker 2: he was getting ready to go away to college, and

254
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Speaker 2: then our saxophone player he was getting ready to go

255
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Speaker 2: away to college. So the band was gonna break up.

256
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Speaker 2: And it was my senior year, and all of a

257
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Speaker 2: sudden I woke up. I realized and my other friends

258
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Speaker 2: they were all getting ready to go to college as well,

259
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Speaker 2: and I hadn't prepared.

260
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Speaker 3: I was just like being in a band. I didn't

261
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Speaker 3: know what I was going to do.

262
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Speaker 2: And we had this one last show that we did

263
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Speaker 2: at a friend's house and one of the guys, Rayfert Griffin,

264
00:14:20,556 --> 00:14:25,516
Speaker 2: his brother, Reggie Griffin, was a man Child and he

265
00:14:25,676 --> 00:14:31,716
Speaker 2: was an excellent musician, Like he played sacks, he played keyboards, cleaverne,

266
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Speaker 2: and he played a guitar, excellent player. And he came

267
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Speaker 2: and saw our show and he asked me that night

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Speaker 2: if I would consider joining Manchild, And so he saved

269
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Speaker 2: my life at that point because I had no plans,

270
00:14:47,636 --> 00:14:51,596
Speaker 2: no band, and no band, and I did not know

271
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Speaker 2: that they were on track to getting a record deal.

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Speaker 2: So I really at high school. The year I graduated,

273
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Speaker 2: I joined the band and had a record deal. That's wild,

274
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Speaker 2: and so I got really lucky, you know, And then.

275
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Speaker 1: I want to play I want to play one of

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Speaker 1: the songs off the first record that that you wrote

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Speaker 1: and sang funky situation you guys were going.

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Speaker 2: Man, So, I actually wrote this when I was in

279
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Speaker 2: Turn Silver and uh So I wrote that in high

280
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Speaker 2: school because it was part of it was one of

281
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Speaker 2: our one of the songs that we would actually play,

282
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Speaker 2: you know, when we when we do these gigs. So

283
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Speaker 2: we were obviously inspired. We were heavily inspired by like

284
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Speaker 2: earth Wind and Fire. Then we were also inspired by

285
00:15:48,996 --> 00:15:54,436
Speaker 2: the chick Corea and and Stanley Forever Turned Forever, and

286
00:15:54,476 --> 00:15:56,676
Speaker 2: so we we were like, so we tried to be

287
00:15:56,836 --> 00:15:58,516
Speaker 2: jazzy too, So that's what because it goes to a

288
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Speaker 2: little jazzy and then inspired by Stevie Wonder too and

289
00:16:02,876 --> 00:16:05,076
Speaker 2: all that. So all that was kind of ended up

290
00:16:05,116 --> 00:16:08,556
Speaker 2: being mixed, not done very well, but still the ideas

291
00:16:08,876 --> 00:16:13,876
Speaker 2: was was there, but it was part of being a

292
00:16:13,916 --> 00:16:17,956
Speaker 2: little confused, not really knowing how to put it all together,

293
00:16:18,076 --> 00:16:20,396
Speaker 2: not knowing how to make a hit, not knowing how

294
00:16:20,436 --> 00:16:23,396
Speaker 2: to make something commercial, but just trying to make that

295
00:16:23,436 --> 00:16:26,036
Speaker 2: we thought it was commercial. But that was one of

296
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Speaker 2: the first songs that you know that man Child took

297
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Speaker 2: from me that it's funny to hear it right now,

298
00:16:31,716 --> 00:16:35,076
Speaker 2: and I can. I definitely wrote that on acoustic guitar,

299
00:16:36,396 --> 00:16:39,636
Speaker 2: and I was trying to be like I was trying

300
00:16:39,636 --> 00:16:42,876
Speaker 2: to be funky, you know, funky situation. But we were

301
00:16:42,956 --> 00:16:46,876
Speaker 2: so influenced by earthwinder Fire, so influenced that I went

302
00:16:46,916 --> 00:16:50,116
Speaker 2: to see earth Fire with the silvers and stylistics, and

303
00:16:50,156 --> 00:16:53,036
Speaker 2: I actually had the chance to interview Maurice White.

304
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Speaker 1: And you interviewed Maurice White in the seventies.

305
00:16:55,876 --> 00:16:58,436
Speaker 2: Yes, I lied and said I was a news reporter

306
00:16:58,516 --> 00:17:01,076
Speaker 2: and got in to meet him. And me and my

307
00:17:01,156 --> 00:17:04,316
Speaker 2: friend Darryl, we were so into them Aryl Simpson.

308
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Speaker 3: So we watched the show.

309
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Speaker 2: And they were kind of new there, so nobody was

310
00:17:08,676 --> 00:17:10,796
Speaker 2: completely familiar. It was more of a black thing. They

311
00:17:10,796 --> 00:17:15,316
Speaker 2: hadn't quite crossed over yet. So when we would go,

312
00:17:15,956 --> 00:17:20,436
Speaker 2: we learned their songs and play their songs live. We

313
00:17:20,556 --> 00:17:24,036
Speaker 2: take their whole routines and do it. We did it

314
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Speaker 2: so well that actually, a couple of years later, there

315
00:17:27,716 --> 00:17:30,476
Speaker 2: was a friend of ours that went to was going

316
00:17:30,516 --> 00:17:34,116
Speaker 2: to school in Boston, and he called us in a

317
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Speaker 2: frantic He said, you know, you guys need to sue

318
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Speaker 2: this group. I just saw this group and they stole

319
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Speaker 2: all of your songs and stole your whole act.

320
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Speaker 3: You need to sue talk about.

321
00:17:50,356 --> 00:17:52,996
Speaker 2: That's how earth Wind and Fire we were. So when

322
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Speaker 2: I listened to that record, that's what I hear. I hear,

323
00:17:55,956 --> 00:17:58,716
Speaker 2: I hear all those influences of from Earth Wind and

324
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Speaker 2: Fire to Return Forever to Stevie Wonder, and it's all

325
00:18:05,076 --> 00:18:05,836
Speaker 2: it's all mixed.

326
00:18:05,956 --> 00:18:08,036
Speaker 1: And it sounded a little Parliament too. I was just

327
00:18:08,036 --> 00:18:10,436
Speaker 1: really on the maybe the got some bootsy solo records

328
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Speaker 1: or something that sounded very.

329
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Speaker 2: Not quite yet. I think later on these records never

330
00:18:16,276 --> 00:18:18,996
Speaker 2: came up. But later on I think I was, like

331
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Speaker 2: Reggie was definitely Parliament influence.

332
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Speaker 3: But I think we never really messed with that. We didn't.

333
00:18:23,916 --> 00:18:28,196
Speaker 2: And that's the interesting thing because this band, Manchild, I

334
00:18:28,236 --> 00:18:29,436
Speaker 2: always think that I missed the.

335
00:18:29,356 --> 00:18:30,596
Speaker 3: Group up when I joined it.

336
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Speaker 2: Why is that because the band was so funky before

337
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Speaker 2: and I was just learning funk that was real fun

338
00:18:40,316 --> 00:18:43,396
Speaker 2: yet that was it wasn't all the way there, but

339
00:18:44,116 --> 00:18:46,116
Speaker 2: it was trying to be there, but I was just

340
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Speaker 2: learning it. And the thing is when we were in

341
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Speaker 2: Tarres Silver, before I was asked to join, we used

342
00:18:54,556 --> 00:18:56,276
Speaker 2: to play all these as I told you before we

343
00:18:56,356 --> 00:18:59,796
Speaker 2: used to play all these colleges and they were always

344
00:18:59,916 --> 00:19:03,076
Speaker 2: more of a white audience. So everything we played, all

345
00:19:03,116 --> 00:19:06,476
Speaker 2: they wanted to do is dance and drink and dance,

346
00:19:06,516 --> 00:19:09,436
Speaker 2: and so we thought we were amazing. We're like, this

347
00:19:09,516 --> 00:19:12,916
Speaker 2: is there's nothing, there's no crowd, we can't win. Before

348
00:19:12,956 --> 00:19:15,636
Speaker 2: before we're over there dancing and they're running around them.

349
00:19:16,156 --> 00:19:18,476
Speaker 2: You know, it's the best audience with it, and we

350
00:19:18,556 --> 00:19:21,196
Speaker 2: just thought we had we was the ship. Then one

351
00:19:21,276 --> 00:19:25,476
Speaker 2: day we got a gig to play for Tech High School,

352
00:19:25,716 --> 00:19:28,956
Speaker 2: which was a all black school, and we got it

353
00:19:29,036 --> 00:19:32,436
Speaker 2: to play for their prom and we went and started

354
00:19:32,436 --> 00:19:35,196
Speaker 2: playing and they sat there with their.

355
00:19:35,116 --> 00:19:37,996
Speaker 3: Arms folded looking at us like like what is this ship?

356
00:19:38,716 --> 00:19:41,756
Speaker 2: You know? And we even pulled out one of theirse

357
00:19:41,836 --> 00:19:45,676
Speaker 2: went for O songs I think devotion, thinking that was

358
00:19:45,676 --> 00:19:47,716
Speaker 2: gonna get them. Nope, what is this its Soon as

359
00:19:47,716 --> 00:19:50,356
Speaker 2: we stopped playing, they put on the Ohio players and

360
00:19:50,796 --> 00:19:53,356
Speaker 2: the DJ and they was all on the floor dancing,

361
00:19:54,076 --> 00:19:56,996
Speaker 2: and like realized how how unblack we were at that

362
00:19:57,116 --> 00:20:01,436
Speaker 2: point and.

363
00:20:00,156 --> 00:20:02,196
Speaker 3: How funky we didn't know anything about black and men.

364
00:20:03,076 --> 00:20:06,876
Speaker 2: That same time period, we were asked to go down

365
00:20:06,876 --> 00:20:10,196
Speaker 2: to this little club called the Inn Crowd which is

366
00:20:10,236 --> 00:20:14,076
Speaker 2: where Man Child played, and they let us come down

367
00:20:14,076 --> 00:20:17,596
Speaker 2: there to open up for them. We performed and they

368
00:20:17,596 --> 00:20:21,116
Speaker 2: were kind to us, and then next up came out

369
00:20:21,476 --> 00:20:23,996
Speaker 2: Man Child. They this is the first time seeing them,

370
00:20:24,356 --> 00:20:26,916
Speaker 2: and when they came out, there was like dry ice

371
00:20:26,996 --> 00:20:31,676
Speaker 2: coming out and they did this version of Chaka Khan

372
00:20:32,036 --> 00:20:34,076
Speaker 2: Rufus and Chaka Khan, I'm a backbone.

373
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Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm a woman, I'm a backbone.

374
00:20:35,916 --> 00:20:38,516
Speaker 2: And so the chorus on that was I'm a woman,

375
00:20:38,636 --> 00:20:41,476
Speaker 2: I'm a backbone, and they came out I'm a man child,

376
00:20:41,516 --> 00:20:45,756
Speaker 2: I'm I'm a motherfucker, I'm a man. He was just

377
00:20:45,836 --> 00:20:49,356
Speaker 2: so funky and so it was like, oh my god,

378
00:20:49,436 --> 00:20:54,596
Speaker 2: I didn't know. And then they also included you know,

379
00:20:54,836 --> 00:20:57,236
Speaker 2: returned to Forever Licks and they they were so they

380
00:20:57,236 --> 00:20:59,876
Speaker 2: were very good and Chucky Bush was the key up

381
00:20:59,916 --> 00:21:02,556
Speaker 2: Wheer who was who played with us for a little bit,

382
00:21:02,596 --> 00:21:04,236
Speaker 2: so he was everybody was.

383
00:21:05,156 --> 00:21:05,876
Speaker 3: They were like.

384
00:21:05,916 --> 00:21:09,076
Speaker 2: Next level musicians. I thought that's when they were at

385
00:21:09,196 --> 00:21:13,036
Speaker 2: their best. And when I joined the band, I think

386
00:21:13,076 --> 00:21:16,076
Speaker 2: they were looking to stretch and go further so and

387
00:21:16,156 --> 00:21:20,076
Speaker 2: try to be a little more mellowed and go other places.

388
00:21:21,036 --> 00:21:24,116
Speaker 2: They had the lead singer, this guy named Flash Farrow,

389
00:21:24,436 --> 00:21:26,436
Speaker 2: who was one of the best front men I've ever

390
00:21:26,516 --> 00:21:29,236
Speaker 2: known and ever seen. He was like Mick Jagger, he

391
00:21:29,316 --> 00:21:31,996
Speaker 2: was like he had a rough voice, so the songs

392
00:21:31,996 --> 00:21:34,756
Speaker 2: that I was writing wasn't necessary for him, and I

393
00:21:34,836 --> 00:21:39,556
Speaker 2: was I was singing, writing these softs love songs, and

394
00:21:39,556 --> 00:21:42,676
Speaker 2: and he wasn't really feeling it, and neither was I

395
00:21:42,716 --> 00:21:47,076
Speaker 2: think Bobby the drummer, and they kind of like didn't

396
00:21:47,116 --> 00:21:49,996
Speaker 2: really completely like it. In fact, they gave me a nickname,

397
00:21:50,036 --> 00:21:55,236
Speaker 2: which wasn't a nice nickname, but Waterfall. Really, yeah, all

398
00:21:55,236 --> 00:21:59,036
Speaker 2: you do is waterfall music, you know, and you bring

399
00:21:59,436 --> 00:22:03,516
Speaker 2: stop ringing that fucking ass waterfall music. And that's all

400
00:22:03,556 --> 00:22:06,516
Speaker 2: I knew what to do, except every now and then

401
00:22:06,556 --> 00:22:10,516
Speaker 2: try to do funky situations. But they were like such

402
00:22:11,036 --> 00:22:13,716
Speaker 2: one of the best funk bands and I had ever

403
00:22:13,796 --> 00:22:16,436
Speaker 2: seen and never heard at that particular point, and I

404
00:22:16,436 --> 00:22:21,276
Speaker 2: feel like had they stayed kept that direction, then it

405
00:22:21,396 --> 00:22:22,996
Speaker 2: might have been something else with them. And I think

406
00:22:23,036 --> 00:22:26,556
Speaker 2: I changed that direction. We ended up getting a hit

407
00:22:26,636 --> 00:22:28,916
Speaker 2: song that I wasn't really a party with, especially for you,

408
00:22:28,996 --> 00:22:33,436
Speaker 2: that that did well. But I don't think I think

409
00:22:33,476 --> 00:22:35,636
Speaker 2: it was meant. It was a place for me to

410
00:22:35,756 --> 00:22:38,516
Speaker 2: learn how to how to write music. It helped me

411
00:22:38,596 --> 00:22:41,716
Speaker 2: learn how to do be more urban, do more R

412
00:22:41,756 --> 00:22:44,956
Speaker 2: and B. Because I was like a waterfall kid. I

413
00:22:45,036 --> 00:22:47,916
Speaker 2: listened to James Taylor, and really, you know, when I

414
00:22:47,996 --> 00:22:50,076
Speaker 2: go in my car on Sundays, I love to listen

415
00:22:50,076 --> 00:22:50,796
Speaker 2: to James Taylor.

416
00:22:50,876 --> 00:22:53,756
Speaker 3: So I did like acoustic music. I like John Denver,

417
00:22:55,396 --> 00:22:59,436
Speaker 3: so I like bread great pop songs.

418
00:22:59,556 --> 00:23:02,516
Speaker 2: Yeah, So I was like in the Beatles, so I

419
00:23:02,516 --> 00:23:04,276
Speaker 2: would do that. I was always would be on my

420
00:23:04,316 --> 00:23:07,636
Speaker 2: acoustic guitar, so things would be prettier in that sense,

421
00:23:07,676 --> 00:23:09,956
Speaker 2: and then i'd write them slow songs were pretty that way.

422
00:23:09,996 --> 00:23:12,676
Speaker 2: So I was just kind on a different page.

423
00:23:12,916 --> 00:23:15,516
Speaker 1: When did you get into the Beatles back.

424
00:23:15,356 --> 00:23:15,836
Speaker 3: The same time?

425
00:23:15,876 --> 00:23:21,156
Speaker 2: It was into smoky yeah, because we had a black

426
00:23:21,196 --> 00:23:24,476
Speaker 2: station that was WTLC, and then we had the pop station,

427
00:23:24,556 --> 00:23:28,036
Speaker 2: which was w IP So on Sundays when I would

428
00:23:28,076 --> 00:23:30,636
Speaker 2: go to church, as soon as the choir would be done,

429
00:23:30,636 --> 00:23:33,116
Speaker 2: i'd go sit in the car and I wouldn't listen

430
00:23:33,156 --> 00:23:35,676
Speaker 2: to TLC because it'd be just other church music. So

431
00:23:36,236 --> 00:23:38,796
Speaker 2: that's when I got educated with pop music. That's why

432
00:23:38,836 --> 00:23:41,756
Speaker 2: I first heard James Taylor Wow and listened to the

433
00:23:41,796 --> 00:23:42,436
Speaker 2: pop stations.

434
00:23:42,476 --> 00:23:45,316
Speaker 1: What were the James Taylor songs and Beatles songs that

435
00:23:45,396 --> 00:23:46,436
Speaker 1: kind of pulled you in.

436
00:23:46,516 --> 00:23:49,436
Speaker 3: You've Got a Friend Beatles.

437
00:23:49,436 --> 00:23:51,316
Speaker 2: It was everything from I Want to Hold Your Hand

438
00:23:51,356 --> 00:23:53,356
Speaker 2: to Ultimate Yesterday and everything.

439
00:23:53,356 --> 00:23:56,516
Speaker 1: It was everything The Beatles did really gorgeous sound in.

440
00:23:56,756 --> 00:24:01,476
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was just great copyrights. Bottom line. I was

441
00:24:01,516 --> 00:24:04,596
Speaker 2: just soaking all of it in. It didn't always have

442
00:24:04,596 --> 00:24:07,556
Speaker 2: a place to put it, but I still soaked it in.

443
00:24:07,996 --> 00:24:08,116
Speaker 5: Well.

444
00:24:08,116 --> 00:24:10,476
Speaker 1: I gotta say I want to play song for much

445
00:24:10,556 --> 00:24:15,436
Speaker 1: later in your Creator you wrote and produce for Whitney Houston.

446
00:24:15,916 --> 00:24:17,356
Speaker 1: I want to play because it made me think when

447
00:24:17,356 --> 00:24:18,916
Speaker 1: you were talking about that, like coming out of church

448
00:24:18,996 --> 00:24:22,196
Speaker 1: and with the choir and then tuning into you know,

449
00:24:22,196 --> 00:24:25,436
Speaker 1: hearing James Taylor and these things. It's like in your music,

450
00:24:25,796 --> 00:24:28,756
Speaker 1: I feel like I really hear like the combination and

451
00:24:28,836 --> 00:24:32,956
Speaker 1: to the personalness of the singer songwriter thing. And I

452
00:24:32,996 --> 00:24:34,796
Speaker 1: know you're famous for love songs, but in a lot

453
00:24:34,836 --> 00:24:37,796
Speaker 1: of ways, sometimes your love songs to me feel greater

454
00:24:37,916 --> 00:24:41,836
Speaker 1: than just romantic love. It feels almost like a devotional

455
00:24:42,076 --> 00:24:45,156
Speaker 1: kind of thing. And Exhale, which you wrote for Whitney,

456
00:24:45,196 --> 00:24:47,116
Speaker 1: always felt I want to play little that always struck

457
00:24:47,156 --> 00:24:47,636
Speaker 1: me that way.

458
00:24:48,556 --> 00:24:57,436
Speaker 5: Sometimes you're live, sometimes your correct life never tells up

459
00:24:58,996 --> 00:25:00,836
Speaker 5: the windso lies.

460
00:25:02,476 --> 00:25:04,196
Speaker 2: When you've got for rid.

461
00:25:05,956 --> 00:25:07,756
Speaker 5: You a shoe were.

462
00:25:09,236 --> 00:25:11,036
Speaker 1: Oh my god. If there is such thing as a

463
00:25:11,076 --> 00:25:14,116
Speaker 1: perfect song, that's it.

464
00:25:13,676 --> 00:25:15,876
Speaker 3: I remember.

465
00:25:16,996 --> 00:25:21,116
Speaker 2: In writing this because I was thinking of songs that

466
00:25:21,276 --> 00:25:23,596
Speaker 2: you've seen in the other films that were haunting, And

467
00:25:24,076 --> 00:25:26,756
Speaker 2: it was a couple of years before that Bruce Springsteen

468
00:25:26,796 --> 00:25:29,676
Speaker 2: did The Streets of Philadelphia and it was a haunting

469
00:25:29,836 --> 00:25:32,796
Speaker 2: kind of feel. So I wanted this to have a

470
00:25:32,836 --> 00:25:36,676
Speaker 2: haunting kind of thing and wasn't exactly sure I was

471
00:25:36,716 --> 00:25:41,396
Speaker 2: gonna do it. And this song wasn't necessarily always supposed

472
00:25:41,436 --> 00:25:44,676
Speaker 2: to happen because Whitney hadn't necessarily always agreed that she

473
00:25:44,716 --> 00:25:47,756
Speaker 2: would sing on this album. So this is kind of

474
00:25:47,796 --> 00:25:49,916
Speaker 2: like one of the last ones to show up, you know,

475
00:25:50,716 --> 00:25:55,756
Speaker 2: because we ultimately needed a theme song for it, but

476
00:25:56,676 --> 00:25:59,236
Speaker 2: until she sung, it wasn't gonna be one I did.

477
00:25:59,316 --> 00:26:03,396
Speaker 2: I worked hand in hand with Forrest Whitaker, who checked,

478
00:26:03,436 --> 00:26:06,756
Speaker 2: who listened to every song. So I was down at

479
00:26:06,756 --> 00:26:11,316
Speaker 2: the production offices and I had my whole rig there

480
00:26:11,636 --> 00:26:15,396
Speaker 2: and he bringing something for me to put some music to.

481
00:26:16,276 --> 00:26:19,996
Speaker 2: And that's and he'd give me a reference to something

482
00:26:20,076 --> 00:26:22,356
Speaker 2: that he wants something like that was never a reference

483
00:26:22,356 --> 00:26:24,556
Speaker 2: for anything like this, but everything else there might have

484
00:26:24,636 --> 00:26:28,076
Speaker 2: been a reference to. And then I had to kind

485
00:26:28,076 --> 00:26:31,396
Speaker 2: of write for the scene and see if it would fly.

486
00:26:32,116 --> 00:26:35,636
Speaker 2: And I think almost every time I did something, he

487
00:26:36,236 --> 00:26:39,796
Speaker 2: always liked it. And we did all this without Clive

488
00:26:39,836 --> 00:26:43,596
Speaker 2: being a part of it, yeah, which was very chancy,

489
00:26:44,236 --> 00:26:48,556
Speaker 2: but it was for the film. So but this was

490
00:26:48,596 --> 00:26:50,836
Speaker 2: the first time I actually ended something in the Clive

491
00:26:50,876 --> 00:26:52,116
Speaker 2: with Clive had note notes.

492
00:26:53,156 --> 00:26:55,396
Speaker 1: I don't have Clive ears, but yees still, I know

493
00:26:55,476 --> 00:26:56,516
Speaker 1: that's a perfect song.

494
00:26:56,996 --> 00:27:00,516
Speaker 3: Well it just felt good, you know. And it was

495
00:27:00,596 --> 00:27:01,316
Speaker 3: also at.

496
00:27:01,236 --> 00:27:06,196
Speaker 2: An interesting time with Whitney because she wasn't singing as

497
00:27:06,236 --> 00:27:09,636
Speaker 2: strong and there's you know, the big songs, so it

498
00:27:09,716 --> 00:27:11,876
Speaker 2: was it was nice to come in and do something

499
00:27:11,996 --> 00:27:20,196
Speaker 2: chills going for the big you know, I'll always love You,

500
00:27:21,116 --> 00:27:23,876
Speaker 2: So it was it was great to do a left turn.

501
00:27:24,756 --> 00:27:27,636
Speaker 1: Like there's so much wisdom in that. And I mean,

502
00:27:27,636 --> 00:27:29,316
Speaker 1: what is what does the song like that come from?

503
00:27:29,556 --> 00:27:32,756
Speaker 2: It comes from watching the movie, comes from watching and

504
00:27:32,796 --> 00:27:39,076
Speaker 2: watching the relationship with these girls and imagining what what

505
00:27:39,196 --> 00:27:43,676
Speaker 2: Whitney's character would say to those those people. So a

506
00:27:43,676 --> 00:27:45,996
Speaker 2: lot of times you find wisdom and just watching people

507
00:27:46,556 --> 00:27:50,876
Speaker 2: and and and watching how they how they love, or

508
00:27:50,916 --> 00:27:55,476
Speaker 2: how they hurt and how they fuck up, you know,

509
00:27:56,556 --> 00:27:59,116
Speaker 2: and and there's something that you can you can take

510
00:27:59,156 --> 00:28:01,956
Speaker 2: from that. And the one thing I would say today

511
00:28:02,116 --> 00:28:04,276
Speaker 2: is that in terms of writing, with what I say

512
00:28:04,436 --> 00:28:06,716
Speaker 2: in writing today, I see a lot of kids like

513
00:28:06,796 --> 00:28:11,036
Speaker 2: I think, Scissors like an excellent writer because it's not

514
00:28:11,076 --> 00:28:15,396
Speaker 2: just our melodies, but her words and how she says,

515
00:28:15,436 --> 00:28:19,196
Speaker 2: how her words are today, how people would talk and

516
00:28:19,196 --> 00:28:22,116
Speaker 2: how people think. She does it in such a clever way.

517
00:28:22,676 --> 00:28:25,116
Speaker 2: And I'm like a student of that at this particular point,

518
00:28:25,196 --> 00:28:28,756
Speaker 2: learning that because we were able to write simpler things

519
00:28:28,956 --> 00:28:34,116
Speaker 2: before and say these words, and the simplicity of it

520
00:28:33,876 --> 00:28:36,516
Speaker 2: was enough. Today it's got to be a little bit more.

521
00:28:36,996 --> 00:28:38,556
Speaker 2: It's a little bit more clever and a little bit

522
00:28:38,556 --> 00:28:42,516
Speaker 2: more how people think and how people talk today, it

523
00:28:42,556 --> 00:28:46,036
Speaker 2: doesn't we don't talk the same way, we don't hear

524
00:28:46,116 --> 00:28:49,956
Speaker 2: the same way. And so I think because of that,

525
00:28:50,716 --> 00:28:52,476
Speaker 2: I won't say easier to do it. It was just

526
00:28:52,556 --> 00:28:53,036
Speaker 2: of the time.

527
00:28:53,156 --> 00:28:55,036
Speaker 1: I think it was just different. I mean, it's funny

528
00:28:55,036 --> 00:28:58,836
Speaker 1: because I don't think people in the nineties necessarily talk

529
00:28:58,916 --> 00:29:02,116
Speaker 1: like people in the fifties or sixties either, But there

530
00:29:02,156 --> 00:29:07,076
Speaker 1: was a universality still to music that could you know, But.

531
00:29:07,076 --> 00:29:10,396
Speaker 2: I do think things have changed. Don't know that obviously

532
00:29:10,436 --> 00:29:13,116
Speaker 2: that music still connects to people today, and kids are

533
00:29:13,156 --> 00:29:15,876
Speaker 2: read still finding it and they don't necessarily it still

534
00:29:15,916 --> 00:29:19,116
Speaker 2: talks to them. It's just that when you're doing something today,

535
00:29:19,196 --> 00:29:21,636
Speaker 2: you need to talk to them how they talk on

536
00:29:21,676 --> 00:29:22,236
Speaker 2: their level.

537
00:29:23,636 --> 00:29:25,236
Speaker 1: We're going to take a quick break and then we'll

538
00:29:25,236 --> 00:29:32,716
Speaker 1: come back with my conversation with Babyface. We're back with

539
00:29:32,756 --> 00:29:37,676
Speaker 1: more of my conversation with Babyface. What was the creation

540
00:29:37,796 --> 00:29:40,116
Speaker 1: of Girls' Night Out? Like, I could hear a Babyface

541
00:29:40,196 --> 00:29:42,796
Speaker 1: on this new record, but to your point, I can

542
00:29:42,836 --> 00:29:46,316
Speaker 1: definitely also hear you trying to do what you do

543
00:29:46,396 --> 00:29:49,156
Speaker 1: within the context of what the singers now are doing.

544
00:29:49,996 --> 00:29:52,836
Speaker 2: Yeah, the actual concept of Girls Night Out came from

545
00:29:53,156 --> 00:29:56,796
Speaker 2: my partner who helped me put the record together, So

546
00:29:56,916 --> 00:30:00,396
Speaker 2: Rika and So she had come to me and said,

547
00:30:00,436 --> 00:30:06,996
Speaker 2: you know, that's the way it did versus h and versus.

548
00:30:07,596 --> 00:30:11,716
Speaker 2: I got so many more new followers and a lot

549
00:30:11,756 --> 00:30:14,796
Speaker 2: of younger ones, and so she was like, you know,

550
00:30:14,796 --> 00:30:16,476
Speaker 2: you got to figure out a way to connect with them.

551
00:30:16,556 --> 00:30:18,556
Speaker 2: You got you know, you can't just do what you've

552
00:30:18,556 --> 00:30:20,516
Speaker 2: done before because they won't really speak to them. So

553
00:30:21,316 --> 00:30:23,036
Speaker 2: maybe the best way to connect with them when you're

554
00:30:23,036 --> 00:30:27,196
Speaker 2: writing and everything is to work with younger artists like Excel.

555
00:30:27,276 --> 00:30:30,076
Speaker 2: Maybe you work with girls again, yeah, and you connect

556
00:30:30,116 --> 00:30:33,676
Speaker 2: that way. But don't just write it for them. Write

557
00:30:33,716 --> 00:30:37,836
Speaker 2: with them, you know, collaborate with them. Make sure you're

558
00:30:37,876 --> 00:30:40,836
Speaker 2: speaking their language and they speak and you guys can

559
00:30:41,196 --> 00:30:44,036
Speaker 2: actually work together. And that's ultimately what it came down to.

560
00:30:44,396 --> 00:30:49,836
Speaker 2: We went in the studio with each artist basically had

561
00:30:49,836 --> 00:30:52,676
Speaker 2: a data do it, a data write it, and a

562
00:30:52,756 --> 00:30:54,876
Speaker 2: data basic get the basic recording.

563
00:30:55,076 --> 00:30:58,476
Speaker 1: You'd bring in a concept maybe and then we start

564
00:30:58,516 --> 00:31:01,276
Speaker 1: right there, go fresh. Was it nerve wracking and going

565
00:31:01,356 --> 00:31:01,596
Speaker 1: like that?

566
00:31:02,356 --> 00:31:04,436
Speaker 2: No, it was it was either going to work or not.

567
00:31:04,596 --> 00:31:07,196
Speaker 2: You know, there was no pressure. It was like, you know,

568
00:31:07,276 --> 00:31:09,756
Speaker 2: we tried and if it doesn't, it didn't work. There's

569
00:31:10,036 --> 00:31:13,956
Speaker 2: some people came we couldn't figure it out, and some

570
00:31:13,996 --> 00:31:15,916
Speaker 2: people we figured it out, but we have to come

571
00:31:15,956 --> 00:31:18,796
Speaker 2: back and finish it up in terms of odubtion. But

572
00:31:18,836 --> 00:31:22,316
Speaker 2: the basic idea of every song was always done in

573
00:31:22,356 --> 00:31:24,556
Speaker 2: that day. Wow, And that was kind of the magic

574
00:31:24,596 --> 00:31:26,396
Speaker 2: of it a little bit. I mean, look, do I

575
00:31:26,436 --> 00:31:28,836
Speaker 2: feel like I did an album full of hits? No,

576
00:31:30,036 --> 00:31:35,356
Speaker 2: I did an album full of moments, and those moments

577
00:31:35,356 --> 00:31:37,996
Speaker 2: that we whatever happened in that moment, that's what That's

578
00:31:38,036 --> 00:31:39,636
Speaker 2: what we came out with, and we tried to make

579
00:31:39,676 --> 00:31:40,876
Speaker 2: it the best that it could be.

580
00:31:41,236 --> 00:31:43,756
Speaker 1: Would you think about music previously like that, like, oh,

581
00:31:43,796 --> 00:31:45,796
Speaker 1: is this an album full of hits versus or were

582
00:31:45,796 --> 00:31:46,756
Speaker 1: you always doing moments?

583
00:31:46,956 --> 00:31:50,076
Speaker 2: Well, sometimes you do want to necessarily do hits. You

584
00:31:50,116 --> 00:31:52,116
Speaker 2: do want to do something that's going to really kind

585
00:31:52,116 --> 00:31:55,236
Speaker 2: of hit everybody, hit everybody in the room, and if

586
00:31:55,236 --> 00:31:56,836
Speaker 2: it's not there, then you want to keep working on

587
00:31:56,916 --> 00:31:58,916
Speaker 2: it and get it, you know. And we didn't have

588
00:31:58,956 --> 00:32:01,556
Speaker 2: that luxury. We just kind of like, this is it,

589
00:32:02,076 --> 00:32:03,756
Speaker 2: this is a moment, and we'll.

590
00:32:03,636 --> 00:32:04,116
Speaker 3: Roll with it.

591
00:32:04,236 --> 00:32:06,716
Speaker 2: Yeah, So in that sense, I do I think I

592
00:32:06,716 --> 00:32:10,156
Speaker 2: could have maybe even made it better, yeah at the time,

593
00:32:11,476 --> 00:32:13,316
Speaker 2: but we just took that moment and that was kind

594
00:32:13,316 --> 00:32:16,716
Speaker 2: of like the experience yehself, you know, That's what I'm saying.

595
00:32:17,276 --> 00:32:20,956
Speaker 2: And because of that, you know, also not just working

596
00:32:20,996 --> 00:32:23,716
Speaker 2: with you know, the girls, but also working with some

597
00:32:23,796 --> 00:32:27,276
Speaker 2: younger producers that come with tracks and things that allowed

598
00:32:27,316 --> 00:32:30,676
Speaker 2: me to also kind of like get into that and

599
00:32:30,716 --> 00:32:33,076
Speaker 2: build from there as well. So it was all an

600
00:32:33,156 --> 00:32:36,476
Speaker 2: effort of trying to speak to an audience that I

601
00:32:36,516 --> 00:32:40,396
Speaker 2: don't normally speak to, but speak to them through another

602
00:32:40,396 --> 00:32:41,276
Speaker 2: form of artistry.

603
00:32:41,276 --> 00:32:43,436
Speaker 3: So to say, yeah, collaboration.

604
00:32:43,036 --> 00:32:45,836
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, out of any of those collaborations, do you

605
00:32:45,836 --> 00:32:49,796
Speaker 1: think you forged any you know, lasting relationships.

606
00:32:49,196 --> 00:32:52,636
Speaker 2: Yes, no question, And I'm sure we'll do more work

607
00:32:52,676 --> 00:32:55,276
Speaker 2: together and that that's great. So I think that the

608
00:32:56,276 --> 00:32:59,596
Speaker 2: process was fun and the results was, you know, came

609
00:32:59,596 --> 00:33:00,076
Speaker 2: out nice.

610
00:33:00,076 --> 00:33:02,396
Speaker 1: So it came out great. I got to say, like,

611
00:33:02,436 --> 00:33:04,596
Speaker 1: you know, it's interesting. Rolling Stone recently put out like

612
00:33:04,636 --> 00:33:07,476
Speaker 1: a list of like two hundred greatest singers. I looked

613
00:33:07,476 --> 00:33:08,676
Speaker 1: at the list and I was like, yeah, it's not

614
00:33:08,756 --> 00:33:10,796
Speaker 1: it's like something like I'll read that one that makes

615
00:33:10,836 --> 00:33:12,116
Speaker 1: sense to me and some of the things. But I

616
00:33:12,156 --> 00:33:14,676
Speaker 1: sort of making just jotting down, like what do I

617
00:33:14,676 --> 00:33:16,796
Speaker 1: think are my favorite singers? And I started putting them down.

618
00:33:16,876 --> 00:33:19,916
Speaker 1: I'm like, man, you know, like maybe it's just a

619
00:33:19,916 --> 00:33:23,236
Speaker 1: time thing. But I didn't really have anyone beyond the nineties,

620
00:33:23,916 --> 00:33:25,876
Speaker 1: and I did sort of think of I don't think

621
00:33:25,916 --> 00:33:29,156
Speaker 1: it was because I'm biased towards that music. But and

622
00:33:29,196 --> 00:33:30,716
Speaker 1: not that there's no good R and B singers. Now

623
00:33:30,956 --> 00:33:34,876
Speaker 1: there's some great singers, but there's no vehicles. Sometimes I

624
00:33:34,876 --> 00:33:37,236
Speaker 1: think these days for like for a great vocalist to

625
00:33:37,276 --> 00:33:39,916
Speaker 1: show how great their vocals are. But it sounds to

626
00:33:39,956 --> 00:33:42,356
Speaker 1: me on this record like you really I don't know,

627
00:33:42,396 --> 00:33:43,876
Speaker 1: I realized, like, man, you really know how to work

628
00:33:43,916 --> 00:33:46,876
Speaker 1: with singers, because these days there's a lot of effects

629
00:33:46,876 --> 00:33:48,996
Speaker 1: on voices and things, but you still found a way

630
00:33:49,036 --> 00:33:51,996
Speaker 1: to kind of create something where they could really drive

631
00:33:52,036 --> 00:33:52,436
Speaker 1: the song.

632
00:33:52,516 --> 00:33:52,716
Speaker 3: Man.

633
00:33:53,196 --> 00:33:57,076
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's it's that's just emotion, so and

634
00:33:57,236 --> 00:33:59,436
Speaker 2: it's it's not about how many rips you do or anything.

635
00:33:59,436 --> 00:34:00,996
Speaker 2: It's really just about our emotion.

636
00:34:01,196 --> 00:34:03,276
Speaker 3: Can you get on it? Yeah, I feel like you've

637
00:34:03,316 --> 00:34:04,196
Speaker 3: been given something.

638
00:34:04,916 --> 00:34:08,876
Speaker 2: There are a lot of really good vocalists girls that

639
00:34:08,956 --> 00:34:13,436
Speaker 2: can sing today. There's a lot of them, and it's

640
00:34:13,476 --> 00:34:16,716
Speaker 2: like there weren't that many back in the day, you know,

641
00:34:17,076 --> 00:34:20,076
Speaker 2: where we could just count on. You know, there was Brandy,

642
00:34:20,156 --> 00:34:23,516
Speaker 2: there was Monica, there was Whitney, you know, Deborah Cox,

643
00:34:23,556 --> 00:34:27,116
Speaker 2: and you know we had a few, but not as

644
00:34:27,156 --> 00:34:30,036
Speaker 2: many as there are today. There's so many girls that

645
00:34:30,116 --> 00:34:33,356
Speaker 2: can really blow and what people that we don't know

646
00:34:33,636 --> 00:34:36,476
Speaker 2: and even as many just as many that you can

647
00:34:36,516 --> 00:34:41,036
Speaker 2: find on on TikTok or the singing wasn't like that before.

648
00:34:41,836 --> 00:34:44,116
Speaker 2: Also the difference in terms of like how even with

649
00:34:45,276 --> 00:34:48,676
Speaker 2: how it used to be so rare to find whether

650
00:34:48,676 --> 00:34:51,596
Speaker 2: it's a white kid or that they could sing sing

651
00:34:52,516 --> 00:34:58,356
Speaker 2: and really have riffs, and that changed completely, Like you

652
00:34:58,356 --> 00:35:00,676
Speaker 2: can find so many of these kids, like these young

653
00:35:00,676 --> 00:35:04,476
Speaker 2: white kids that can like clearly blow and that.

654
00:35:04,796 --> 00:35:06,516
Speaker 1: It sounds like they grew up on gospel.

655
00:35:06,636 --> 00:35:09,956
Speaker 2: Yeah sometimes and that was clearly just left for you know,

656
00:35:10,196 --> 00:35:12,476
Speaker 2: initially there was Tina Marie who was that?

657
00:35:12,556 --> 00:35:13,476
Speaker 3: Who was that girl? Then?

658
00:35:14,996 --> 00:35:15,236
Speaker 1: Yeah?

659
00:35:15,356 --> 00:35:18,596
Speaker 2: Yeah, and she know she was more. Yeah, she got

660
00:35:18,676 --> 00:35:22,356
Speaker 2: a little past sometimes at least a Stan spill got

661
00:35:22,756 --> 00:35:25,236
Speaker 2: a little bit of a pass, but not clearly not

662
00:35:25,396 --> 00:35:29,676
Speaker 2: like not like Tina, I like Tina, not like Celine

663
00:35:29,716 --> 00:35:33,436
Speaker 2: Dion came and just kind of tore it up and

664
00:35:33,716 --> 00:35:37,076
Speaker 2: to really have like could move their voice where where

665
00:35:37,156 --> 00:35:42,116
Speaker 2: Whitney was like okay, she could sing so and that

666
00:35:42,116 --> 00:35:44,396
Speaker 2: that all changed And I think I think it was

667
00:35:44,476 --> 00:35:47,396
Speaker 2: McDonald's anyway, you.

668
00:35:47,316 --> 00:35:48,156
Speaker 1: Think it was McDonald's.

669
00:35:48,276 --> 00:35:54,476
Speaker 3: I'm thing happened. Something was in the water.

670
00:35:56,316 --> 00:35:59,636
Speaker 2: But I think overall just I mean, what the real

671
00:35:59,676 --> 00:36:05,796
Speaker 2: answer is that black music and R and B. So

672
00:36:06,996 --> 00:36:10,756
Speaker 2: it became so infectious that when people listened to things

673
00:36:10,876 --> 00:36:13,476
Speaker 2: enough that it becomes part of them. Yeah, you know,

674
00:36:13,716 --> 00:36:17,196
Speaker 2: And the same thing applies for even like overseas, even

675
00:36:17,196 --> 00:36:20,076
Speaker 2: for like the K pop Yeah, kids.

676
00:36:19,876 --> 00:36:22,716
Speaker 1: Say, man, come on, and that was you man. I mean,

677
00:36:22,836 --> 00:36:25,396
Speaker 1: I feel like we should say that flat out because

678
00:36:26,676 --> 00:36:28,876
Speaker 1: you may not want to, you know, and others and others.

679
00:36:28,956 --> 00:36:30,596
Speaker 2: I was in the group with other people and others

680
00:36:30,676 --> 00:36:32,196
Speaker 2: my question help help influence.

681
00:36:32,356 --> 00:36:34,436
Speaker 1: It's like there's a point R and B was on

682
00:36:34,476 --> 00:36:37,196
Speaker 1: the charts as like race music, you know, by the.

683
00:36:37,196 --> 00:36:41,516
Speaker 2: Nineties, nineties it was it was all included. Nineties it

684
00:36:41,556 --> 00:36:44,396
Speaker 2: was there was not really you could you couldn't tell

685
00:36:44,436 --> 00:36:47,076
Speaker 2: the difference hardly between the R and B chart and

686
00:36:47,116 --> 00:36:47,676
Speaker 2: the pop chart.

687
00:36:47,796 --> 00:36:52,676
Speaker 3: Yeah, because what was black was also pop as well.

688
00:36:52,796 --> 00:36:56,476
Speaker 2: Yeah, Bobby Brown and boised them in and you know,

689
00:36:56,556 --> 00:36:58,836
Speaker 2: even I had some things that were in pop at

690
00:36:58,836 --> 00:37:00,716
Speaker 2: the top tens that I didn't even I didn't know

691
00:37:00,716 --> 00:37:01,556
Speaker 2: that Whipping Piel.

692
00:37:01,476 --> 00:37:05,236
Speaker 3: Was a top ten popping of the year nineteen. I

693
00:37:05,236 --> 00:37:05,596
Speaker 3: didn't know.

694
00:37:05,596 --> 00:37:08,316
Speaker 2: I didn't know it even touched that stuff so because

695
00:37:08,316 --> 00:37:09,956
Speaker 2: I always thought of it just R and B. So,

696
00:37:10,516 --> 00:37:12,476
Speaker 2: but there was a point where it was that now

697
00:37:12,516 --> 00:37:17,556
Speaker 2: it's it's changed again. Where I mean, hip hop is

698
00:37:17,596 --> 00:37:20,436
Speaker 2: the one thing that's you always got to keep watching

699
00:37:20,476 --> 00:37:23,356
Speaker 2: things as you know, know how things will slight. But

700
00:37:23,436 --> 00:37:27,996
Speaker 2: the influence is crazy and it has been and always

701
00:37:27,996 --> 00:37:32,396
Speaker 2: has been. So when when speak people speak of the

702
00:37:32,396 --> 00:37:36,596
Speaker 2: future of R and B in the future, just black

703
00:37:36,716 --> 00:37:39,756
Speaker 2: music in general, it's always here because it's always influencing.

704
00:37:39,836 --> 00:37:41,676
Speaker 1: It always is. And know what's funny, man, It's like,

705
00:37:41,716 --> 00:37:43,716
Speaker 1: you know, rock and roll and hip hop take a

706
00:37:43,756 --> 00:37:46,316
Speaker 1: lot of air out of the room and look great,

707
00:37:46,476 --> 00:37:48,156
Speaker 1: you know, no doubt. But when you think about it,

708
00:37:48,276 --> 00:37:52,356
Speaker 1: R and B really is like the great American art

709
00:37:52,436 --> 00:37:55,476
Speaker 1: form because if you go back nineteen forty, Louis Jordan,

710
00:37:55,516 --> 00:37:59,996
Speaker 1: the nineteen fifties, Ray Charles, nineteen sixty, you got Motown stacks,

711
00:38:00,476 --> 00:38:03,436
Speaker 1: all this great Atlantic artists in the seventies with you know,

712
00:38:03,556 --> 00:38:06,036
Speaker 1: Stevie Finley really come out earth Wind and Fought, and

713
00:38:06,116 --> 00:38:08,676
Speaker 1: you know in the eighties, come on, man, R and

714
00:38:08,716 --> 00:38:10,556
Speaker 1: B is kind always right there.

715
00:38:11,356 --> 00:38:15,556
Speaker 2: It started here, It's in everything. So it always has

716
00:38:15,596 --> 00:38:19,116
Speaker 2: been so, and I think that's that people get. They

717
00:38:19,156 --> 00:38:23,156
Speaker 2: get tunnel vision on just one particular sound and one

718
00:38:23,196 --> 00:38:26,796
Speaker 2: particular thing. I love the changes, and I love to

719
00:38:26,836 --> 00:38:30,156
Speaker 2: see people experimenting with it and and growing making letting

720
00:38:30,236 --> 00:38:30,556
Speaker 2: it grow.

721
00:38:31,236 --> 00:38:36,116
Speaker 1: So can't play a deal song Sweet November. I'm gonna

722
00:38:36,116 --> 00:38:37,276
Speaker 1: play a little, just a little bit of it. I

723
00:38:37,276 --> 00:38:39,276
Speaker 1: feel like this has something to do with with your name.

724
00:38:41,196 --> 00:38:53,716
Speaker 6: But time that will read bad love that.

725
00:38:56,596 --> 00:38:59,556
Speaker 1: Wow, man, that's that's a great song.

726
00:39:00,316 --> 00:39:04,196
Speaker 2: I wrote that right out of high school. Out of

727
00:39:04,236 --> 00:39:07,796
Speaker 2: high school, yeah it was. It was because I was

728
00:39:07,796 --> 00:39:12,076
Speaker 2: a man child. So second year or something seventy eight

729
00:39:12,156 --> 00:39:15,836
Speaker 2: or so, seventy eight seventy nine, right in that time.

730
00:39:16,756 --> 00:39:21,396
Speaker 3: So this was a girl. It was like this one girl.

731
00:39:21,436 --> 00:39:22,356
Speaker 3: She was like the most.

732
00:39:22,796 --> 00:39:25,396
Speaker 2: While we were in high school, we were really good friends,

733
00:39:26,156 --> 00:39:27,796
Speaker 2: and there's no way I would have ever thought I

734
00:39:27,796 --> 00:39:30,956
Speaker 2: would have been with her. But when I got out

735
00:39:30,996 --> 00:39:33,796
Speaker 2: of high school, we we started talking and then we

736
00:39:33,876 --> 00:39:34,796
Speaker 2: actually started dating.

737
00:39:34,836 --> 00:39:38,116
Speaker 3: I remember Daryl was like, how how was this even happening?

738
00:39:38,156 --> 00:39:39,356
Speaker 3: How do you have her?

739
00:39:40,356 --> 00:39:45,516
Speaker 2: And then I remember we went to go see Brookshields

740
00:39:45,836 --> 00:39:50,876
Speaker 2: Endless Love. We saw Endless Love together and then something happened.

741
00:39:51,036 --> 00:39:56,316
Speaker 3: I think right before we were going away in Manchild.

742
00:39:57,156 --> 00:39:59,356
Speaker 2: All of a sudden she stopped calling me and I

743
00:39:59,356 --> 00:40:02,836
Speaker 2: couldn't I couldn't reach her, and I don't know what happened,

744
00:40:03,236 --> 00:40:05,836
Speaker 2: but it was just like we're just like broken up.

745
00:40:06,836 --> 00:40:08,916
Speaker 2: And then there was no cell phones. There was no

746
00:40:08,956 --> 00:40:10,436
Speaker 2: good you couldn't return the phone, and.

747
00:40:10,596 --> 00:40:11,476
Speaker 1: The social media.

748
00:40:12,516 --> 00:40:15,596
Speaker 3: It was just done. And I was really messed up

749
00:40:15,636 --> 00:40:15,996
Speaker 3: about it.

750
00:40:16,036 --> 00:40:20,316
Speaker 2: And and that's when I wrote this, you know, because

751
00:40:20,476 --> 00:40:22,156
Speaker 2: you know, that was the time period. It was in

752
00:40:22,196 --> 00:40:24,956
Speaker 2: the fall, and sudden I was thinking maybe maybe when

753
00:40:24,996 --> 00:40:27,956
Speaker 2: I come back, maybe maybe this November, we'll get back

754
00:40:27,996 --> 00:40:30,516
Speaker 2: together and find it. So that was actually a love

755
00:40:30,596 --> 00:40:33,196
Speaker 2: song that was written way back then.

756
00:40:33,396 --> 00:40:36,396
Speaker 1: And would you have written the words or would you

757
00:40:36,436 --> 00:40:38,796
Speaker 1: write the words for piano and wrote it's at the piano?

758
00:40:38,996 --> 00:40:40,996
Speaker 2: Yeah, wow, So.

759
00:40:41,556 --> 00:40:44,556
Speaker 1: Because it's kind of beautiful even just divorced from the music,

760
00:40:44,596 --> 00:40:47,276
Speaker 1: if you just look at the words like high level.

761
00:40:47,436 --> 00:40:47,636
Speaker 1: You know.

762
00:40:48,116 --> 00:40:50,716
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was when autumn first arrived you when my

763
00:40:50,796 --> 00:40:52,276
Speaker 2: lady we're dating.

764
00:40:52,516 --> 00:40:54,676
Speaker 1: It was the second ign of attom. We shared a feeling.

765
00:40:54,756 --> 00:40:58,436
Speaker 2: Yeah, come on, that's it's like we started dating and

766
00:40:58,476 --> 00:41:00,556
Speaker 2: then all of a sudden, we like I remember, it

767
00:41:00,596 --> 00:41:04,236
Speaker 2: was raining and like it looks like something's going.

768
00:41:04,236 --> 00:41:04,796
Speaker 3: To happen here.

769
00:41:04,916 --> 00:41:07,756
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like which that's an interesting song because that

770
00:41:08,756 --> 00:41:11,836
Speaker 2: the history of this song too. It's also that it's

771
00:41:11,876 --> 00:41:13,916
Speaker 2: the song that ultimately got me to be able to

772
00:41:13,956 --> 00:41:18,276
Speaker 2: sing on the Deal album because I did this. I

773
00:41:18,356 --> 00:41:23,276
Speaker 2: recorded this song, did the demo. I had always always

774
00:41:23,316 --> 00:41:24,756
Speaker 2: had the song, but when I got in the Deal,

775
00:41:24,836 --> 00:41:28,956
Speaker 2: I actually demoed it. And this isn't very far from

776
00:41:28,956 --> 00:41:32,396
Speaker 2: the demo at all. And so when we were working

777
00:41:32,396 --> 00:41:36,956
Speaker 2: on the second album for the Deal, Redick call Away

778
00:41:36,956 --> 00:41:39,356
Speaker 2: from Midnight Star was supposed to produce her album and

779
00:41:39,756 --> 00:41:42,316
Speaker 2: he did not because they had fell out with our

780
00:41:42,356 --> 00:41:44,956
Speaker 2: manager and our manager was the same manager they had,

781
00:41:44,996 --> 00:41:47,116
Speaker 2: so they didn't want to do anything everything to do

782
00:41:47,156 --> 00:41:50,036
Speaker 2: with us. So it was suddenly in our hands, me

783
00:41:50,076 --> 00:41:54,676
Speaker 2: in LA's hands too. Did Griffy said you guys should

784
00:41:54,676 --> 00:41:58,356
Speaker 2: produce it, and we were a little afraid, but we

785
00:41:58,516 --> 00:42:02,676
Speaker 2: thought we'd try. And this song I had submitted to

786
00:42:03,596 --> 00:42:07,556
Speaker 2: dig Griffy to see if I could place it on

787
00:42:07,596 --> 00:42:12,076
Speaker 2: the Whispers. I also sent the song, gave the song

788
00:42:12,116 --> 00:42:15,156
Speaker 2: to Luther hoping that he would sing wow, and he

789
00:42:15,276 --> 00:42:18,796
Speaker 2: never answered on it, but I got it case tape

790
00:42:18,836 --> 00:42:21,796
Speaker 2: to him so he would potentially do it too, And

791
00:42:21,836 --> 00:42:25,356
Speaker 2: so it never got to the Whispers because Dick Griffy

792
00:42:26,276 --> 00:42:28,316
Speaker 2: had heard it and he said, who is this? LA

793
00:42:28,356 --> 00:42:31,276
Speaker 2: told him this is you know, Kenny. I wasn't babyface

794
00:42:31,356 --> 00:42:35,676
Speaker 2: yet and he goes, this is Kenny, goes, so why

795
00:42:35,956 --> 00:42:37,996
Speaker 2: give this whispers? Why don't you guys do this song

796
00:42:38,476 --> 00:42:42,916
Speaker 2: on your album? And then La says, well, we don't

797
00:42:42,956 --> 00:42:45,156
Speaker 2: have anybody that can sing it, and said, what are

798
00:42:45,156 --> 00:42:48,636
Speaker 2: you talking about? You got who's singing this? He said, oh,

799
00:42:48,676 --> 00:42:50,956
Speaker 2: it's Kenny singing it. He said, well, how come he singing?

800
00:42:50,996 --> 00:42:55,036
Speaker 2: He said, because he's not the lead singer. And Dick

801
00:42:55,116 --> 00:42:58,556
Speaker 2: said that's stupid. He should be singing. Then LA had

802
00:42:58,556 --> 00:43:01,676
Speaker 2: to have a group meeting to see if I could sing,

803
00:43:02,476 --> 00:43:06,276
Speaker 2: and once they had the group meeting, they voted me

804
00:43:06,356 --> 00:43:11,236
Speaker 2: not to sing. Still, I had no problem with it

805
00:43:11,436 --> 00:43:14,436
Speaker 2: because I wasn't trying to be a singer. Every time

806
00:43:14,476 --> 00:43:16,316
Speaker 2: I was doing these songs. It wasn't like I was

807
00:43:16,316 --> 00:43:18,716
Speaker 2: thinking I was gonna do a record with it. It's

808
00:43:18,756 --> 00:43:19,756
Speaker 2: just me writing songs.

809
00:43:20,436 --> 00:43:21,396
Speaker 1: What you do.

810
00:43:22,076 --> 00:43:26,236
Speaker 2: And so Dick Grify came back said, well, if this

811
00:43:26,316 --> 00:43:28,956
Speaker 2: ain't on the album, if he ain't singing it, then

812
00:43:28,996 --> 00:43:33,476
Speaker 2: you guys ain't got no album. So that's how I

813
00:43:33,556 --> 00:43:35,556
Speaker 2: was able to sing Sweet November on that album.

814
00:43:35,956 --> 00:43:38,996
Speaker 1: What were they saying, you can't sing you that it's

815
00:43:39,036 --> 00:43:40,036
Speaker 1: a beautiful vocal.

816
00:43:40,116 --> 00:43:42,956
Speaker 2: They didn't want me to sing because they were already

817
00:43:42,956 --> 00:43:43,756
Speaker 2: two lead singers.

818
00:43:43,836 --> 00:43:47,116
Speaker 1: Got it okay, So it was a it's a power thing.

819
00:43:47,476 --> 00:43:49,796
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, like, look, we got our singers. We

820
00:43:49,836 --> 00:43:51,796
Speaker 2: don't need any any more confusion.

821
00:43:51,876 --> 00:43:52,956
Speaker 3: And I got that. I wasn't.

822
00:43:53,156 --> 00:43:55,556
Speaker 2: I did not join the group to be a singer

823
00:43:56,276 --> 00:44:00,196
Speaker 2: at all, and so Sweet November is ended up being

824
00:44:00,196 --> 00:44:03,276
Speaker 2: that song that you know, it's a heartfelt song with

825
00:44:03,356 --> 00:44:05,956
Speaker 2: a song that ultimately got me to start singing in

826
00:44:05,996 --> 00:44:06,916
Speaker 2: the group to begin with.

827
00:44:07,036 --> 00:44:09,076
Speaker 1: And it kind of solidified your name right.

828
00:44:09,556 --> 00:44:12,356
Speaker 2: Well, the name had nothing to do with that. The

829
00:44:12,436 --> 00:44:17,076
Speaker 2: name just came because everybody in the deal had a

830
00:44:17,076 --> 00:44:24,996
Speaker 2: great name. It was La, Ko d Carlos Stick and

831
00:44:25,076 --> 00:44:29,476
Speaker 2: Kenny Edmands and we were looking around trying to find names.

832
00:44:29,516 --> 00:44:33,476
Speaker 2: We tried Romeo not really it, and a couple other

833
00:44:33,556 --> 00:44:36,716
Speaker 2: names they were doing. Nothing was sticking until one day

834
00:44:36,916 --> 00:44:39,716
Speaker 2: La and Ko were in the studio working with Bootsy,

835
00:44:39,956 --> 00:44:43,876
Speaker 2: helping Bootsy do a demo and I walked in the

836
00:44:43,916 --> 00:44:48,996
Speaker 2: studio and Bootsy looks at me, he goes, Babyface, and

837
00:44:49,076 --> 00:44:50,996
Speaker 2: that was kind of like where it started. I didn't

838
00:44:51,076 --> 00:44:53,156
Speaker 2: like the name. I thought it was a little soft,

839
00:44:53,196 --> 00:44:56,356
Speaker 2: and I didn't like it all, but he said Babyface anyway.

840
00:44:56,396 --> 00:45:00,556
Speaker 2: So then this was probably in eighty five, so much

841
00:45:00,636 --> 00:45:04,756
Speaker 2: after the song. So we're like now eighty five, we're

842
00:45:04,796 --> 00:45:09,916
Speaker 2: out on tour. So d goes one night. I would

843
00:45:09,916 --> 00:45:13,356
Speaker 2: sing this song every night. One night you'd go, that's

844
00:45:13,396 --> 00:45:17,716
Speaker 2: Kenny Edmans, give it up to Kenny Edmans, and you know,

845
00:45:17,756 --> 00:45:19,236
Speaker 2: there'd be a little bit of love, a little bit

846
00:45:19,276 --> 00:45:23,516
Speaker 2: of something. But then one night he said give it

847
00:45:23,596 --> 00:45:28,236
Speaker 2: up to Babyface. It was a completely different reaction, and

848
00:45:28,476 --> 00:45:30,436
Speaker 2: that night a whole bunch of girls came back looking

849
00:45:30,436 --> 00:45:34,476
Speaker 2: for Babyface. I sung that song every night the same

850
00:45:34,516 --> 00:45:37,076
Speaker 2: I swear it was not any different, but singing it

851
00:45:37,116 --> 00:45:41,796
Speaker 2: as Babyface suddenly made it a whole other thing, which

852
00:45:41,996 --> 00:45:44,316
Speaker 2: just taught us a lesson of just being commercial and

853
00:45:44,436 --> 00:45:48,516
Speaker 2: name and everything branding, you know. So it was a

854
00:45:48,596 --> 00:45:52,036
Speaker 2: lesson and I became very comfortable when the girls came back.

855
00:45:52,076 --> 00:45:55,596
Speaker 3: I was comfortable with having the new Babyface at that point. Yeah, yeah, questions.

856
00:45:56,076 --> 00:46:00,796
Speaker 1: So that song was really personal. Yeah, exhale was more

857
00:46:01,396 --> 00:46:02,596
Speaker 1: from watching the movie.

858
00:46:02,956 --> 00:46:03,836
Speaker 3: Watching the movie.

859
00:46:04,116 --> 00:46:06,716
Speaker 1: You don't necessarily have to write from personal experience, you can,

860
00:46:07,156 --> 00:46:08,916
Speaker 1: you can, you can watch others, and.

861
00:46:09,196 --> 00:46:13,156
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's really about watching others and how they how

862
00:46:13,196 --> 00:46:16,716
Speaker 2: they feel, and how they imagining having to go through that.

863
00:46:16,796 --> 00:46:19,996
Speaker 2: I'm always asked, how are you able to write for women? Yeah,

864
00:46:20,876 --> 00:46:23,116
Speaker 2: and I said, if you just kind of think of

865
00:46:23,156 --> 00:46:25,196
Speaker 2: it and think of whatever they go through and think

866
00:46:25,236 --> 00:46:29,116
Speaker 2: out how you'd feel, you know, it's not that hard

867
00:46:29,156 --> 00:46:29,876
Speaker 2: to figure out.

868
00:46:30,236 --> 00:46:33,676
Speaker 3: Damn, that's fucked up, I feel, you know, think all

869
00:46:33,756 --> 00:46:34,596
Speaker 3: right about that, you know.

870
00:46:35,116 --> 00:46:38,716
Speaker 2: And as a kid that was always falling in love

871
00:46:39,236 --> 00:46:40,236
Speaker 2: and thinking I was in.

872
00:46:40,156 --> 00:46:41,476
Speaker 1: Love, feeling like you were in love.

873
00:46:42,796 --> 00:46:45,476
Speaker 2: You know, that's what it was. My very first song

874
00:46:45,636 --> 00:46:48,556
Speaker 2: was about a girl named round the new bould always

875
00:46:48,556 --> 00:46:51,236
Speaker 2: say her name, and that was in here I Go

876
00:46:51,276 --> 00:46:54,796
Speaker 2: falling in love again. And the second song that I

877
00:46:54,836 --> 00:46:58,116
Speaker 2: wrote that I clearly remember was about the same girl,

878
00:46:58,356 --> 00:47:00,796
Speaker 2: which was two years later, from sixth grade to eighth grade,

879
00:47:00,796 --> 00:47:03,596
Speaker 2: because she broke my heart what's called the Better Taste

880
00:47:03,596 --> 00:47:09,236
Speaker 2: of Life. Oh those are feelings that I that I

881
00:47:09,276 --> 00:47:11,796
Speaker 2: had and everything was exaggerated. I had written a song

882
00:47:11,836 --> 00:47:14,916
Speaker 2: called so Shy, So there were pieces. There would be

883
00:47:14,956 --> 00:47:17,436
Speaker 2: pieces of things, of songs that I would write. I

884
00:47:17,476 --> 00:47:20,156
Speaker 2: wrote a song called Anita, wrote a song called Shelley.

885
00:47:21,196 --> 00:47:23,756
Speaker 2: One of the best songs I ever wrote was a

886
00:47:23,756 --> 00:47:27,476
Speaker 2: song called Last Song Forever, which was I wrote that

887
00:47:27,516 --> 00:47:30,516
Speaker 2: when I was in my senior year, never recorded. I

888
00:47:30,516 --> 00:47:32,236
Speaker 2: think so. I think I let a group recorded as

889
00:47:32,356 --> 00:47:33,476
Speaker 2: they turned into a gospel.

890
00:47:33,516 --> 00:47:34,516
Speaker 1: Do you remember any of it?

891
00:47:34,796 --> 00:47:34,996
Speaker 3: Yeah?

892
00:47:35,076 --> 00:47:36,116
Speaker 1: Could you play a little of it?

893
00:47:36,236 --> 00:47:37,836
Speaker 3: I don't know what my voice is like right now.

894
00:47:42,596 --> 00:47:50,276
Speaker 5: When I think Spanish, I remember a special feeling sweet Shore.

895
00:47:54,476 --> 00:47:55,436
Speaker 3: Then I think.

896
00:47:57,156 --> 00:48:01,956
Speaker 5: Spanish show moments. Those were special times. You told me

897
00:48:02,116 --> 00:48:02,716
Speaker 5: you can.

898
00:48:07,476 --> 00:48:08,116
Speaker 3: You know when.

899
00:48:09,516 --> 00:48:13,796
Speaker 4: This will blown away? I hope you know my now,

900
00:48:14,316 --> 00:48:23,556
Speaker 4: my love will always. I love you for usually know

901
00:48:23,916 --> 00:48:31,396
Speaker 4: man love King and no Beeta LEAs song for ound.

902
00:48:34,356 --> 00:48:36,796
Speaker 4: I gotta love you.

903
00:48:40,676 --> 00:48:42,916
Speaker 1: Then not do right now?

904
00:48:44,116 --> 00:48:52,476
Speaker 2: And that's a little Pisa anyway. So that was in

905
00:48:52,556 --> 00:48:56,596
Speaker 2: my senior year. I wrote that song for a girl

906
00:48:56,636 --> 00:49:03,036
Speaker 2: that that liked be for a long time. And it's funny,

907
00:49:03,036 --> 00:49:06,716
Speaker 2: it's interesting. It was it was a it was a

908
00:49:06,716 --> 00:49:12,956
Speaker 2: white girl that liked me and in high school at

909
00:49:12,956 --> 00:49:16,356
Speaker 2: that time, it was like, you don't you don't do that.

910
00:49:17,596 --> 00:49:21,996
Speaker 2: And we were friends and we and we did music together.

911
00:49:22,036 --> 00:49:25,076
Speaker 2: We liked doing music together, and Darryl and everybody would

912
00:49:25,116 --> 00:49:27,716
Speaker 2: go to her house and write, write music and create music,

913
00:49:27,756 --> 00:49:30,836
Speaker 2: and so we always vibe with each other. And she

914
00:49:31,076 --> 00:49:33,036
Speaker 2: really got a crush on me. She was like, she

915
00:49:33,156 --> 00:49:35,316
Speaker 2: lived really close to the school and I lived so

916
00:49:35,396 --> 00:49:38,116
Speaker 2: far away. She was like asking, let me come over

917
00:49:38,116 --> 00:49:39,556
Speaker 2: to your house and pick you up and take you to.

918
00:49:39,556 --> 00:49:40,316
Speaker 3: School in the morning.

919
00:49:40,356 --> 00:49:42,676
Speaker 2: And she went to do everything in the world for me,

920
00:49:42,716 --> 00:49:45,476
Speaker 2: and I was like, that's great, but I didn't want

921
00:49:45,596 --> 00:49:49,876
Speaker 2: this girl to that same inund neighborhood picking me up

922
00:49:49,916 --> 00:49:51,956
Speaker 2: and stuff. And so I was like and I just

923
00:49:51,996 --> 00:49:55,076
Speaker 2: realized at the point I was like being very it

924
00:49:55,116 --> 00:49:58,116
Speaker 2: was almost like reverse racism to a certain extent for me.

925
00:49:58,276 --> 00:50:00,716
Speaker 2: And I was like, well, what about a lot of heat.

926
00:50:00,756 --> 00:50:03,196
Speaker 2: I'm sure what a brought heat? And back then they

927
00:50:03,236 --> 00:50:07,116
Speaker 2: call you times and stuff like that. Yeah, but in

928
00:50:07,156 --> 00:50:09,756
Speaker 2: our school that was you know, it wasn't like it

929
00:50:09,796 --> 00:50:14,836
Speaker 2: was it never happened, but it would sometimes. So one

930
00:50:14,876 --> 00:50:17,596
Speaker 2: point she had gone away to on a spring trip,

931
00:50:18,116 --> 00:50:20,916
Speaker 2: so she went down to Florida or something, and when

932
00:50:20,956 --> 00:50:25,356
Speaker 2: she was gone, I really missed her. So I thought

933
00:50:25,396 --> 00:50:27,916
Speaker 2: to myself, you know what, forget it.

934
00:50:28,076 --> 00:50:28,556
Speaker 3: I don't care.

935
00:50:28,676 --> 00:50:31,396
Speaker 2: I don't care what color she is, I don't care

936
00:50:31,436 --> 00:50:34,996
Speaker 2: any When she comes back, I'm going to tell her,

937
00:50:35,036 --> 00:50:37,676
Speaker 2: let's do this. And she came back. She had a tan,

938
00:50:37,796 --> 00:50:43,276
Speaker 2: she was fine as but I waited too long. When

939
00:50:43,316 --> 00:50:47,036
Speaker 2: she came back, she had changed at that point. She

940
00:50:47,116 --> 00:50:51,996
Speaker 2: wasn't interested anymore because she had tried and she finally

941
00:50:51,996 --> 00:50:55,436
Speaker 2: met someone else. I waited too long, and then that

942
00:50:55,596 --> 00:50:59,636
Speaker 2: was it. And then I wrote that song, and it

943
00:50:59,716 --> 00:51:02,396
Speaker 2: was just interesting to me because it was like, you know,

944
00:51:02,436 --> 00:51:05,236
Speaker 2: when someone's pushing for you to like you and trying

945
00:51:05,236 --> 00:51:08,356
Speaker 2: to like you, and you're pushing them away for reasons,

946
00:51:08,396 --> 00:51:10,516
Speaker 2: not because of how you feel, but because of what

947
00:51:10,556 --> 00:51:14,756
Speaker 2: everybody else thinks. And when if I had it just

948
00:51:15,916 --> 00:51:19,596
Speaker 2: not cared about that, yeah, then it maybe it would

949
00:51:19,636 --> 00:51:22,556
Speaker 2: have been different. But then it had that not happened,

950
00:51:22,596 --> 00:51:24,236
Speaker 2: I don't know if I'd written the song, so you

951
00:51:24,236 --> 00:51:24,676
Speaker 2: wouldn't have.

952
00:51:24,836 --> 00:51:27,356
Speaker 1: The best song you ever wrote. How many other great

953
00:51:27,356 --> 00:51:28,676
Speaker 1: songs do you have sitting.

954
00:51:28,636 --> 00:51:29,236
Speaker 3: I'm not sure.

955
00:51:29,596 --> 00:51:31,836
Speaker 2: There's a lot of things I can remember back in

956
00:51:31,876 --> 00:51:34,636
Speaker 2: those days, just stuff I've written on the guitar. I

957
00:51:34,636 --> 00:51:37,636
Speaker 2: can go through things to see songs that I've written

958
00:51:37,636 --> 00:51:40,996
Speaker 2: over the years I don't necessarily love, but it feels

959
00:51:41,036 --> 00:51:42,876
Speaker 2: like a lot of the things that I wrote that

960
00:51:42,956 --> 00:51:45,676
Speaker 2: were heartfelt from the guitar. I don't necessarily think they're

961
00:51:46,116 --> 00:51:48,676
Speaker 2: commercial songs, but their songs that I love. You know.

962
00:51:49,356 --> 00:51:52,716
Speaker 1: Yeah, you did that record playlist like maybe fifteen or

963
00:51:52,716 --> 00:51:54,836
Speaker 1: so years ago. It was kind of more like it

964
00:51:54,876 --> 00:51:57,236
Speaker 1: was sort of more just you an acoustic in a way.

965
00:51:57,596 --> 00:51:59,396
Speaker 1: It was covering some of the songs some of the

966
00:51:59,436 --> 00:52:01,436
Speaker 1: things that inspired me, you know, But doing a record

967
00:52:01,436 --> 00:52:04,596
Speaker 1: of like that with originals would be Yeah, maybe it

968
00:52:04,636 --> 00:52:06,996
Speaker 1: would be cool capture.

969
00:52:06,716 --> 00:52:10,276
Speaker 2: A moment right throughout it all, there were songs that

970
00:52:10,436 --> 00:52:12,996
Speaker 2: would I would write and these feelings that I would have,

971
00:52:13,076 --> 00:52:16,356
Speaker 2: you know, as a kid, And that's what the whole

972
00:52:16,396 --> 00:52:19,236
Speaker 2: idea of Waterfall came from doing things like that.

973
00:52:20,956 --> 00:52:22,756
Speaker 1: We're gonna pause for a quick break and then come

974
00:52:22,796 --> 00:52:30,396
Speaker 1: back with the rest of my conversation with Babyface. We're

975
00:52:30,436 --> 00:52:34,076
Speaker 1: back with the rest of my interview with Babyface. You

976
00:52:34,076 --> 00:52:35,996
Speaker 1: didn't mention her name with the girl that you wrote

977
00:52:36,076 --> 00:52:37,876
Speaker 1: Sweet November four. Do you ever know what happened to her?

978
00:52:37,916 --> 00:52:38,836
Speaker 1: Did you ever figure that out?

979
00:52:38,916 --> 00:52:43,156
Speaker 2: Yes? She lives in Indianapolis. And did I ever follow

980
00:52:43,236 --> 00:52:44,596
Speaker 2: up and ask about what happened?

981
00:52:45,276 --> 00:52:46,236
Speaker 3: I did.

982
00:52:46,956 --> 00:52:49,196
Speaker 2: She said she had just met someone else and felt

983
00:52:49,196 --> 00:52:53,196
Speaker 2: really bad about how it ended, and I don't really care.

984
00:52:53,316 --> 00:52:56,036
Speaker 2: I even met with round the new boat. I met

985
00:52:56,036 --> 00:52:58,556
Speaker 2: with her from the whole sixth grade thing. That's a

986
00:52:58,636 --> 00:53:02,196
Speaker 2: whole long story. And I actually talked to her as

987
00:53:02,236 --> 00:53:05,956
Speaker 2: well because I wanted to see I was so interested

988
00:53:05,996 --> 00:53:08,876
Speaker 2: to find out if my memory was the same. Yeah,

989
00:53:09,276 --> 00:53:13,836
Speaker 2: did did things happen the way that I thought they happened?

990
00:53:13,996 --> 00:53:15,516
Speaker 1: Did they kind of remember the same?

991
00:53:15,556 --> 00:53:17,876
Speaker 2: It was pretty close? Pretty close, It was pretty It

992
00:53:17,916 --> 00:53:22,876
Speaker 2: was pretty pretty hon it, which was mind blowing to

993
00:53:22,916 --> 00:53:25,236
Speaker 2: me that I, you know, that I really remembered it

994
00:53:25,396 --> 00:53:26,316
Speaker 2: kind of the right way.

995
00:53:26,676 --> 00:53:30,316
Speaker 1: So wow, it seems like you carry things, you know,

996
00:53:30,516 --> 00:53:30,956
Speaker 1: like with you.

997
00:53:31,996 --> 00:53:38,676
Speaker 2: My memory of those days stay with me because there

998
00:53:38,756 --> 00:53:42,916
Speaker 2: was something very powerful about when you're young and when

999
00:53:42,956 --> 00:53:44,956
Speaker 2: you're in love and how powerful that is, and that

1000
00:53:45,076 --> 00:53:48,636
Speaker 2: that feeling you want to die, you know. That's like

1001
00:53:49,396 --> 00:53:52,396
Speaker 2: when I wrote Breathe Again, I was writing from that

1002
00:53:52,516 --> 00:53:55,316
Speaker 2: perspective of like thinking, you know, if you leave me,

1003
00:53:55,516 --> 00:53:58,836
Speaker 2: I'll never breathe again, and that kind of desperate thing

1004
00:53:58,916 --> 00:54:01,996
Speaker 2: that kids feel because it's the first time and it's

1005
00:54:02,036 --> 00:54:07,036
Speaker 2: like everything is, you know, amplified by a million yes.

1006
00:54:07,396 --> 00:54:11,236
Speaker 2: And I used to love to go to that space sometimes.

1007
00:54:11,236 --> 00:54:13,516
Speaker 2: If I'm writing a love song, a heartfelt love song,

1008
00:54:13,756 --> 00:54:16,316
Speaker 2: then it's great to go to that space too, you know,

1009
00:54:16,956 --> 00:54:19,916
Speaker 2: as a reference, you know, for those feelings, so.

1010
00:54:19,876 --> 00:54:21,156
Speaker 1: You can conjure up that.

1011
00:54:21,636 --> 00:54:24,916
Speaker 2: So as I carry these stories, I carry those feelings too, amazing,

1012
00:54:24,956 --> 00:54:28,116
Speaker 2: you know, and able to call on those in that way.

1013
00:54:28,276 --> 00:54:30,436
Speaker 1: We should listen to just a bit of breathing. I

1014
00:54:30,476 --> 00:54:49,636
Speaker 1: love hearing your songs, if you're cool with it.

1015
00:54:52,156 --> 00:54:55,756
Speaker 2: That song was when I was writing it. I did

1016
00:54:55,756 --> 00:54:59,476
Speaker 2: the music first, and I was writing in and I

1017
00:54:59,556 --> 00:55:02,596
Speaker 2: was actually writing it for another artist, writing for an

1018
00:55:02,636 --> 00:55:05,916
Speaker 2: artist named MacArthur who was Melvin Gentry, who was part

1019
00:55:05,956 --> 00:55:08,716
Speaker 2: of a Nice Star. And initially I was coming up

1020
00:55:08,716 --> 00:55:11,836
Speaker 2: with the track for his album. And then as I

1021
00:55:11,876 --> 00:55:14,276
Speaker 2: did that and those chords came to me and those

1022
00:55:14,676 --> 00:55:17,396
Speaker 2: lyrics in my hand said oh no, this is not

1023
00:55:17,796 --> 00:55:22,916
Speaker 2: for him, this is this is a tony song, you know,

1024
00:55:23,396 --> 00:55:27,316
Speaker 2: and then all of a sudden, it just you know,

1025
00:55:27,436 --> 00:55:31,436
Speaker 2: like flushed in the whole idea of it. And I

1026
00:55:31,476 --> 00:55:34,876
Speaker 2: was able to go back to that that little kid,

1027
00:55:35,516 --> 00:55:39,316
Speaker 2: you know, that was like destroyed in eighth grade and

1028
00:55:39,316 --> 00:55:41,956
Speaker 2: and thinking of those words. And that's that's how you know,

1029
00:55:41,996 --> 00:55:44,836
Speaker 2: you go to those moments, and that's how you can

1030
00:55:45,956 --> 00:55:50,436
Speaker 2: revisit those feelings again and again. It doesn't always have

1031
00:55:50,476 --> 00:55:51,996
Speaker 2: to be what's going on in your life now. It

1032
00:55:52,356 --> 00:55:55,636
Speaker 2: could be about either watching someone or going back to

1033
00:55:55,676 --> 00:55:57,876
Speaker 2: his actual feeling that you may have had someone.

1034
00:55:58,036 --> 00:56:01,316
Speaker 1: Yeah. Wow, you tell me about your relationship with Darryl Simmons,

1035
00:56:01,476 --> 00:56:03,196
Speaker 1: Like a strong partnership you guys have. Man.

1036
00:56:03,396 --> 00:56:04,596
Speaker 3: Daryl's a great guy. Darryl.

1037
00:56:05,196 --> 00:56:08,716
Speaker 2: I know him since I was in I think ninth grade.

1038
00:56:09,316 --> 00:56:10,676
Speaker 2: He used to come over to my house. He was

1039
00:56:10,676 --> 00:56:12,756
Speaker 2: friends with my brother when I was in eighth grade

1040
00:56:12,796 --> 00:56:16,516
Speaker 2: and he used to come over. And his memory of

1041
00:56:16,596 --> 00:56:20,236
Speaker 2: me was that he had heard that I had a

1042
00:56:20,276 --> 00:56:24,116
Speaker 2: microphone and they had a band, and I think I

1043
00:56:24,156 --> 00:56:27,436
Speaker 2: had a microphone and my brother Michael played guitar as well,

1044
00:56:27,756 --> 00:56:32,156
Speaker 2: and so they started this band and I was still

1045
00:56:32,156 --> 00:56:35,316
Speaker 2: playing guitar a little bit, but the guitar electric guitar

1046
00:56:35,356 --> 00:56:38,596
Speaker 2: I had, I shared it with my brother Michael and

1047
00:56:38,636 --> 00:56:40,716
Speaker 2: Michael would take the guitar and leave it on at

1048
00:56:40,716 --> 00:56:41,636
Speaker 2: rehearsal all the time.

1049
00:56:41,716 --> 00:56:43,676
Speaker 3: It's the wrongest in the world.

1050
00:56:44,516 --> 00:56:46,796
Speaker 2: But it was when I first kind of met there

1051
00:56:46,836 --> 00:56:50,716
Speaker 2: where he was like wanting me to be in the band.

1052
00:56:50,756 --> 00:56:53,956
Speaker 2: But my brother Michael, he voted against it because he

1053
00:56:54,036 --> 00:56:56,916
Speaker 2: used to want me in it. So it was a

1054
00:56:56,996 --> 00:57:00,716
Speaker 2: little bit later where we met me and my other

1055
00:57:00,756 --> 00:57:03,516
Speaker 2: friend and manual officer where we had just became this

1056
00:57:04,396 --> 00:57:07,276
Speaker 2: little singing thing called the Elements, and we had this

1057
00:57:07,316 --> 00:57:11,316
Speaker 2: group called the Elements, which all of it's a long story,

1058
00:57:11,316 --> 00:57:15,436
Speaker 2: but basically Daryl joined that group and we became, you know, friends.

1059
00:57:15,476 --> 00:57:18,156
Speaker 2: And I was always a writer and Daryl sometimes would

1060
00:57:18,156 --> 00:57:22,796
Speaker 2: be around helped me write. And then sometimes it wasn't

1061
00:57:22,836 --> 00:57:24,356
Speaker 2: that he would help me write, it's just that his

1062
00:57:24,516 --> 00:57:26,116
Speaker 2: being there, mate, all of a sudden, I would think

1063
00:57:26,116 --> 00:57:29,556
Speaker 2: of something sometimes, as you have a person that doesn't

1064
00:57:29,556 --> 00:57:32,196
Speaker 2: know I always write the songs, but them just being

1065
00:57:32,236 --> 00:57:33,436
Speaker 2: there all of a sudden, you think of something that

1066
00:57:33,476 --> 00:57:36,196
Speaker 2: you wouldn't have thought of. You know, it's just their energy.

1067
00:57:36,516 --> 00:57:38,396
Speaker 2: It kind of helps in songwriting.

1068
00:57:38,716 --> 00:57:40,476
Speaker 1: I think it was a communication thing. That's just like

1069
00:57:40,476 --> 00:57:41,756
Speaker 1: the way you guys communicated.

1070
00:57:42,236 --> 00:57:43,796
Speaker 2: Yeah, It's just one of the kind of thing, is

1071
00:57:43,836 --> 00:57:45,676
Speaker 2: I don't you just might think of a word that

1072
00:57:45,756 --> 00:57:47,956
Speaker 2: you might be joking around something, and then all of

1073
00:57:47,956 --> 00:57:50,876
Speaker 2: a sudden, the word hits you. They helped kind of

1074
00:57:50,876 --> 00:57:54,836
Speaker 2: help you get your creative juices going. It's not always

1075
00:57:54,876 --> 00:57:58,556
Speaker 2: particularly always just songwriting and stuff. Sometimes it's just their vibe.

1076
00:57:57,996 --> 00:58:02,396
Speaker 2: And you know, we've been friends ever since. I've a

1077
00:58:02,436 --> 00:58:05,916
Speaker 2: few friends, a couple of friends for sure that I've

1078
00:58:05,956 --> 00:58:09,556
Speaker 2: known since I was a kid, you know, and that's

1079
00:58:09,676 --> 00:58:12,516
Speaker 2: rare to have, you know, to be friends with people

1080
00:58:12,556 --> 00:58:13,036
Speaker 2: for that long.

1081
00:58:13,436 --> 00:58:16,356
Speaker 1: Well, especially when you're in inhabiting the world that you're

1082
00:58:16,396 --> 00:58:19,076
Speaker 1: you're in and must be really grounding and great.

1083
00:58:19,676 --> 00:58:22,516
Speaker 2: It's it's it's a blessing in that way, and not

1084
00:58:22,636 --> 00:58:26,156
Speaker 2: everybody is in it. Like it's just having somebody from

1085
00:58:26,196 --> 00:58:28,716
Speaker 2: Indianapolis that kind of knew you when you're growing up

1086
00:58:28,796 --> 00:58:31,556
Speaker 2: and and seeing you change, you know, seeing seeing you

1087
00:58:31,556 --> 00:58:33,436
Speaker 2: go through the changes in your life and who you've

1088
00:58:33,436 --> 00:58:35,516
Speaker 2: become and who you were at the time.

1089
00:58:35,996 --> 00:58:37,156
Speaker 1: Do you still write with them ever?

1090
00:58:37,756 --> 00:58:40,076
Speaker 2: We don't write that much together, but we talk all

1091
00:58:40,076 --> 00:58:40,956
Speaker 2: the time.

1092
00:58:41,116 --> 00:58:43,316
Speaker 1: Yeah, when was the last time you guys got together?

1093
00:58:43,396 --> 00:58:45,796
Speaker 2: And I think I mean that was part of the love.

1094
00:58:45,836 --> 00:58:50,316
Speaker 2: Marriage divorce intended the return of the tender love. He

1095
00:58:50,356 --> 00:58:52,956
Speaker 2: doesn't writing with me there in the last ten years

1096
00:58:53,036 --> 00:58:55,916
Speaker 2: or so. Yeah, it's I think when you're a writer

1097
00:58:55,996 --> 00:59:00,036
Speaker 2: that's writing today and you're constantly writing with younger writers,

1098
00:59:00,476 --> 00:59:03,156
Speaker 2: the writing kind of changes and so you lean towards

1099
00:59:03,236 --> 00:59:06,716
Speaker 2: other people in terms of like when you because because

1100
00:59:06,716 --> 00:59:09,556
Speaker 2: they're they're speaking differently, and if you're not doing it

1101
00:59:09,596 --> 00:59:12,276
Speaker 2: on a continuous basis, what you have to offer is

1102
00:59:12,276 --> 00:59:13,076
Speaker 2: in quite the same.

1103
00:59:13,116 --> 00:59:16,116
Speaker 1: So yeah, yeah, I do want to ask all the

1104
00:59:16,116 --> 00:59:18,556
Speaker 1: great singers you work with. You wrote a song that

1105
00:59:18,596 --> 00:59:20,716
Speaker 1: Aretha did Willing to Forgive.

1106
00:59:20,956 --> 00:59:22,316
Speaker 3: Yeah, there was a hit for her.

1107
00:59:23,036 --> 00:59:24,316
Speaker 1: What was working with Aretha?

1108
00:59:24,476 --> 00:59:28,076
Speaker 2: Like? That was surreal to actually go in with the

1109
00:59:28,076 --> 00:59:31,876
Speaker 2: Aretha Franklin. And she was so nice to me. She

1110
00:59:32,796 --> 00:59:35,516
Speaker 2: wasn't always nice to everybody, so that's why I felt privileged.

1111
00:59:36,836 --> 00:59:39,916
Speaker 2: She was such a pro. She like, you get you

1112
00:59:39,996 --> 00:59:44,596
Speaker 2: maybe get one, you maybe get three runs down maybe,

1113
00:59:44,996 --> 00:59:46,676
Speaker 2: but she'll come and say I'm gonna do it once,

1114
00:59:46,876 --> 00:59:50,076
Speaker 2: I'm gonna do it twice, and that's it, you know.

1115
00:59:50,716 --> 00:59:53,876
Speaker 1: And could you kind of direct her beforehand, say hey,

1116
00:59:54,636 --> 00:59:55,036
Speaker 1: you know.

1117
00:59:55,636 --> 00:59:57,476
Speaker 2: Every now and then she might let you, but for

1118
00:59:57,516 --> 00:59:59,716
Speaker 2: the most part she just kind of like she'd do

1119
00:59:59,756 --> 01:00:03,316
Speaker 2: her homework and then she she'd go. I mean, she

1120
01:00:03,356 --> 01:00:04,956
Speaker 2: would have been with me and we were able to

1121
01:00:04,996 --> 01:00:09,076
Speaker 2: do some things. But I think probably my fondest experience

1122
01:00:10,196 --> 01:00:16,436
Speaker 2: with Rita was doing Hurt psych hel Xcel the way

1123
01:00:16,476 --> 01:00:19,516
Speaker 2: she she's that was a one time through. That was

1124
01:00:19,556 --> 01:00:25,876
Speaker 2: one time wow, and it was just unbelievable. Oh and

1125
01:00:25,996 --> 01:00:28,876
Speaker 2: I think my best work with her, and I ended

1126
01:00:28,956 --> 01:00:31,916
Speaker 2: up doing kind of the greatest hits records with her

1127
01:00:31,916 --> 01:00:35,316
Speaker 2: with we were doing covers and stuff, but to be honest,

1128
01:00:35,356 --> 01:00:39,236
Speaker 2: her voice wasn't quite the same anymore. It was like

1129
01:00:39,436 --> 01:00:42,476
Speaker 2: you could hear what she could what she was trying

1130
01:00:42,516 --> 01:00:45,956
Speaker 2: to do, but it wasn't quite the same anymore. But

1131
01:00:46,116 --> 01:00:50,316
Speaker 2: so having her have done that with her psych hell,

1132
01:00:51,436 --> 01:00:53,756
Speaker 2: she loved the song and she and she's singing like

1133
01:00:53,836 --> 01:00:54,356
Speaker 2: she loved it.

1134
01:00:54,716 --> 01:00:56,956
Speaker 1: Her voice was still her voice at that point, and

1135
01:00:58,356 --> 01:01:01,076
Speaker 1: hearing it in like just us in a studio space was.

1136
01:01:01,276 --> 01:01:02,836
Speaker 2: H It was like just like here, she just came in

1137
01:01:02,876 --> 01:01:06,476
Speaker 2: and she said, let's go, let's do it, and it

1138
01:01:06,516 --> 01:01:08,756
Speaker 2: was it was done unbelievable.

1139
01:01:09,316 --> 01:01:10,956
Speaker 1: You told me the story making end of the Road.

1140
01:01:11,996 --> 01:01:15,796
Speaker 2: So end of the Road was written for Boomerang. Went

1141
01:01:15,876 --> 01:01:18,716
Speaker 2: to see the movie before it was all the music

1142
01:01:18,796 --> 01:01:21,796
Speaker 2: was there, and there was one particular scene that I

1143
01:01:21,796 --> 01:01:25,716
Speaker 2: thought would have worked great, and we got the word

1144
01:01:25,796 --> 01:01:31,636
Speaker 2: that boyster Man might do the song. So I definitely

1145
01:01:31,876 --> 01:01:36,676
Speaker 2: was writing the song in a very old Philly kind of,

1146
01:01:36,716 --> 01:01:42,276
Speaker 2: you know way, so that whole sound of Philadelphia, so

1147
01:01:42,436 --> 01:01:45,236
Speaker 2: because that's where they were from, So definitely writing in

1148
01:01:45,756 --> 01:01:49,396
Speaker 2: that kind of like that. And so as I as

1149
01:01:49,436 --> 01:01:52,876
Speaker 2: I started putting it together, I had a little house

1150
01:01:52,876 --> 01:01:56,396
Speaker 2: in Atlanta that I would go to write up my

1151
01:01:56,516 --> 01:02:00,476
Speaker 2: songs for this project in general, and so I got

1152
01:02:00,516 --> 01:02:01,116
Speaker 2: it pretty far.

1153
01:02:02,036 --> 01:02:03,036
Speaker 3: I was pretty excited about it.

1154
01:02:03,036 --> 01:02:04,716
Speaker 2: I written that most of the words and stuff, and

1155
01:02:04,756 --> 01:02:07,796
Speaker 2: then I then I called Daryl over to see as

1156
01:02:07,876 --> 01:02:10,956
Speaker 2: to I really got one, and Daryl was like, this

1157
01:02:11,076 --> 01:02:14,556
Speaker 2: is one, and so I demoed it and he helped.

1158
01:02:14,396 --> 01:02:15,036
Speaker 3: Me finish it up.

1159
01:02:15,076 --> 01:02:18,676
Speaker 2: And initially I thought the song was so strong, I

1160
01:02:18,716 --> 01:02:21,876
Speaker 2: almost considered trying to keep it for myself, you know,

1161
01:02:22,876 --> 01:02:25,916
Speaker 2: but I wasn't going to be an artist on this

1162
01:02:26,036 --> 01:02:30,876
Speaker 2: Boomerang thing. But hindsight, there's no question it was supposed

1163
01:02:30,916 --> 01:02:34,196
Speaker 2: to be boised them in when they started singing and

1164
01:02:34,236 --> 01:02:35,716
Speaker 2: it was it was automatic.

1165
01:02:36,356 --> 01:02:38,196
Speaker 3: So we just flew up there to Philadelphia.

1166
01:02:38,196 --> 01:02:40,356
Speaker 2: They were on tour and they came in, had just

1167
01:02:40,436 --> 01:02:44,156
Speaker 2: one afternoon to sing it down and uh, and that's

1168
01:02:44,156 --> 01:02:46,276
Speaker 2: how we that's that's how we started.

1169
01:02:46,596 --> 01:02:50,356
Speaker 1: Is it true that wasn't vocally in the best shape

1170
01:02:50,716 --> 01:02:51,276
Speaker 1: Wanya was.

1171
01:02:51,996 --> 01:02:54,756
Speaker 2: They were on tour, so he was like a little

1172
01:02:54,756 --> 01:02:56,836
Speaker 2: bit of a cold and stuff like that, and they

1173
01:02:56,876 --> 01:02:58,596
Speaker 2: were all kind of a little bit because they were

1174
01:02:58,636 --> 01:03:01,756
Speaker 2: out there singing. But it was fine, you know. Obviously

1175
01:03:03,036 --> 01:03:04,956
Speaker 2: it was new for all of us because like we

1176
01:03:04,996 --> 01:03:09,316
Speaker 2: hadn't worked with a group like that before, and so

1177
01:03:09,396 --> 01:03:11,876
Speaker 2: coming up with these parts. They were great because they

1178
01:03:11,916 --> 01:03:13,756
Speaker 2: could help come up with parts on top of it

1179
01:03:13,836 --> 01:03:16,636
Speaker 2: and a lot of the notes were already there because

1180
01:03:16,636 --> 01:03:18,636
Speaker 2: I had done armies and stuff, and then they were

1181
01:03:18,636 --> 01:03:21,436
Speaker 2: built on top of it and created on the spot,

1182
01:03:22,756 --> 01:03:25,876
Speaker 2: and it felt like it just felt like it was

1183
01:03:25,876 --> 01:03:29,476
Speaker 2: a natural thing, you know, and it's ultimately that rolled

1184
01:03:29,476 --> 01:03:31,116
Speaker 2: over into you know, I'll make Love to you.

1185
01:03:31,636 --> 01:03:35,356
Speaker 1: Incredible. Yeah, setting up in my room at such a

1186
01:03:35,356 --> 01:03:38,436
Speaker 1: different groove from from from so many songs of that era.

1187
01:03:38,596 --> 01:03:42,316
Speaker 2: Even Yeah, it was sitting up in my room was

1188
01:03:42,356 --> 01:03:45,716
Speaker 2: once again going back to funky situation, you know, be

1189
01:03:45,796 --> 01:03:48,676
Speaker 2: trying to figure out how to do funk, you know,

1190
01:03:49,236 --> 01:03:53,476
Speaker 2: way years later, just trying to give something that was

1191
01:03:53,476 --> 01:03:56,516
Speaker 2: supposed to be just be one particular scene. I think

1192
01:03:56,956 --> 01:04:02,636
Speaker 2: the the music that was there in the scene first

1193
01:04:02,676 --> 01:04:07,236
Speaker 2: was Aliah back and forth, and I needed to have

1194
01:04:07,276 --> 01:04:08,796
Speaker 2: something that just kind of grooved a little bit.

1195
01:04:08,876 --> 01:04:10,876
Speaker 3: So that was what I came up with.

1196
01:04:10,836 --> 01:04:13,716
Speaker 2: And I hadn't and I knew it was going to

1197
01:04:13,756 --> 01:04:16,316
Speaker 2: be for Brandy, So I was trying to imagine how

1198
01:04:16,356 --> 01:04:18,356
Speaker 2: she would sing it, you know, Yeah, and then when

1199
01:04:18,396 --> 01:04:21,076
Speaker 2: she came and sing it out, blown away, how.

1200
01:04:20,916 --> 01:04:21,516
Speaker 3: Good she is.

1201
01:04:21,916 --> 01:04:23,236
Speaker 1: That's such a cool vocal mass.

1202
01:04:23,396 --> 01:04:28,116
Speaker 2: She's just so good. She's Brandy is so good. I

1203
01:04:28,156 --> 01:04:30,956
Speaker 2: think I can put Brandy up in the top ten

1204
01:04:31,076 --> 01:04:37,116
Speaker 2: of like singers. In terms of studio singers. There aren't

1205
01:04:37,236 --> 01:04:39,316
Speaker 2: very many that can they are as good as she is.

1206
01:04:39,556 --> 01:04:42,156
Speaker 1: Wow, they just aren't even at that young age.

1207
01:04:42,236 --> 01:04:44,676
Speaker 2: Even at that young age, there just aren't very many.

1208
01:04:44,716 --> 01:04:47,156
Speaker 2: She's like, she's a beast.

1209
01:04:47,396 --> 01:04:49,236
Speaker 1: Who else would you put on that list?

1210
01:04:49,436 --> 01:04:51,156
Speaker 2: I mean, some people you put on the list based

1211
01:04:51,196 --> 01:04:53,836
Speaker 2: off because their their vocals are just crazy. I mean,

1212
01:04:53,916 --> 01:04:57,596
Speaker 2: obviously Whitney you know, yeah, because it's Whitney Houston. What

1213
01:04:57,636 --> 01:05:00,996
Speaker 2: I'm talking about is not just great voice, but also

1214
01:05:01,076 --> 01:05:05,396
Speaker 2: somebody just knows how to really just kill it every time.

1215
01:05:05,596 --> 01:05:08,516
Speaker 2: It just sounds almost perfect every time. I don't know

1216
01:05:08,556 --> 01:05:12,356
Speaker 2: that I could. Brandy's just one of those people I

1217
01:05:12,396 --> 01:05:14,756
Speaker 2: think I was impressed by, you know, I was very

1218
01:05:14,756 --> 01:05:20,996
Speaker 2: impressed by Money Loan and when she's singing scissors, yeah,

1219
01:05:21,116 --> 01:05:27,036
Speaker 2: I'm ridiculous. So there are people that you know that

1220
01:05:27,236 --> 01:05:30,036
Speaker 2: just have it. I mean the list could probably I

1221
01:05:30,076 --> 01:05:33,636
Speaker 2: could probably go down and listen get more. But I

1222
01:05:33,676 --> 01:05:36,516
Speaker 2: would always just say that in terms of somebody I

1223
01:05:36,516 --> 01:05:39,596
Speaker 2: always feel that's underrated would be Brandy.

1224
01:05:40,076 --> 01:05:42,236
Speaker 1: Is there was there anyone you wanted to work with

1225
01:05:42,276 --> 01:05:43,956
Speaker 1: that you just missed? Like you mentioned the Lea, I

1226
01:05:43,956 --> 01:05:44,516
Speaker 1: was thinking.

1227
01:05:45,356 --> 01:05:47,676
Speaker 3: Child, I've always wanted to work with her.

1228
01:05:47,996 --> 01:05:49,596
Speaker 1: I think, isn't she making music right now?

1229
01:05:49,876 --> 01:05:53,676
Speaker 2: She's got yeah no, but that doesn't meaning because she's

1230
01:05:53,716 --> 01:05:55,556
Speaker 2: got so much pain in her voice that I would

1231
01:05:55,636 --> 01:05:56,436
Speaker 2: love to work with that.

1232
01:05:56,636 --> 01:06:00,476
Speaker 3: So that's that's the one that sticks. I always got it.

1233
01:06:00,596 --> 01:06:02,916
Speaker 1: I just want to play one more cut. So this

1234
01:06:02,916 --> 01:06:04,996
Speaker 1: this was some of the Preacher's Wife's soundtrack. My heart

1235
01:06:05,036 --> 01:06:05,716
Speaker 1: is calling.

1236
01:06:10,236 --> 01:06:15,516
Speaker 5: Because I'm trying too. But when I swear.

1237
01:06:18,356 --> 01:06:24,756
Speaker 1: Reservations, my spectization there, it's incredible.

1238
01:06:24,796 --> 01:06:26,716
Speaker 3: Man, I'd do it better today.

1239
01:06:27,236 --> 01:06:28,116
Speaker 1: What would you do different?

1240
01:06:28,756 --> 01:06:32,876
Speaker 2: The groove wasn't The groove was good, but it wasn't

1241
01:06:32,916 --> 01:06:35,676
Speaker 2: like Whitney was all the way on the pocket with it.

1242
01:06:35,796 --> 01:06:39,076
Speaker 3: Is that why it be? Uh? And I would have

1243
01:06:39,116 --> 01:06:40,396
Speaker 3: made this core stronger?

1244
01:06:40,796 --> 01:06:41,116
Speaker 1: Okay?

1245
01:06:41,756 --> 01:06:41,956
Speaker 3: Yeah?

1246
01:06:42,476 --> 01:06:44,836
Speaker 1: Was it tough working with Whitney? Like was it similar

1247
01:06:44,836 --> 01:06:46,516
Speaker 1: to reatha where you'd only get a couple of takes?

1248
01:06:46,796 --> 01:06:48,276
Speaker 3: Whitney would shot she worked.

1249
01:06:48,476 --> 01:06:49,076
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1250
01:06:49,596 --> 01:06:52,956
Speaker 2: Our problem would be we'd be sitting around joking and

1251
01:06:53,036 --> 01:06:55,556
Speaker 2: laughing and stuff all the time, and okay, it should

1252
01:06:55,556 --> 01:06:58,716
Speaker 2: work and uh, and then we finally get it down.

1253
01:06:58,796 --> 01:07:00,476
Speaker 2: But a lot of times we would just be always

1254
01:07:00,556 --> 01:07:01,356
Speaker 2: laughing about stuff.

1255
01:07:01,596 --> 01:07:03,756
Speaker 1: So one of the great joys of my life is

1256
01:07:03,756 --> 01:07:07,516
Speaker 1: that we got three Michael albums with Quincy and then uh.

1257
01:07:07,556 --> 01:07:09,076
Speaker 1: But one of my I wish we could have got

1258
01:07:09,196 --> 01:07:12,276
Speaker 1: like a full Whitney baby face record, you know.

1259
01:07:13,356 --> 01:07:16,356
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think there would have been a shot at

1260
01:07:16,396 --> 01:07:19,316
Speaker 2: that that she, you know, had she lived longer, we

1261
01:07:19,316 --> 01:07:22,396
Speaker 2: were certainly in talk to doing work together again.

1262
01:07:22,636 --> 01:07:23,836
Speaker 1: You guys were talking again.

1263
01:07:24,076 --> 01:07:27,716
Speaker 2: Clive had called me and and said, you know, she's ready.

1264
01:07:27,876 --> 01:07:30,476
Speaker 3: I think she's about ready to do this. And then

1265
01:07:30,516 --> 01:07:33,116
Speaker 3: she you know, you know she was.

1266
01:07:33,236 --> 01:07:36,356
Speaker 2: She was right on the road of turning everything around

1267
01:07:36,356 --> 01:07:37,636
Speaker 2: and getting it back.

1268
01:07:37,796 --> 01:07:40,796
Speaker 1: When was that Clive call in comparison to maybe a

1269
01:07:40,836 --> 01:07:45,036
Speaker 1: month before, were starting to collect songs already and not

1270
01:07:45,116 --> 01:07:45,476
Speaker 1: yet I was.

1271
01:07:45,756 --> 01:07:47,636
Speaker 3: I was waiting to see if it was true.

1272
01:07:48,196 --> 01:07:51,036
Speaker 2: We didn't see whether her voice was back there because

1273
01:07:51,356 --> 01:07:53,356
Speaker 2: I wanted to do it with her when her voice

1274
01:07:53,396 --> 01:07:56,396
Speaker 2: was in shape. And yeah, and I wanted it, you know,

1275
01:07:56,396 --> 01:07:58,236
Speaker 2: because I loved working with Whitney, you know.

1276
01:07:58,316 --> 01:08:01,796
Speaker 1: So was there ever a chance to do more work

1277
01:08:01,796 --> 01:08:03,876
Speaker 1: in the nineties, like beyond the soundtrack because it was

1278
01:08:03,876 --> 01:08:05,796
Speaker 1: a big gas like nineteen ninety nineteen ninety eight, and

1279
01:08:05,836 --> 01:08:06,716
Speaker 1: there's like a big yeah.

1280
01:08:06,796 --> 01:08:09,716
Speaker 2: I think we were just thinks she was just on

1281
01:08:09,756 --> 01:08:11,276
Speaker 2: a different page and I was on a different page

1282
01:08:11,276 --> 01:08:14,316
Speaker 2: at that point. You know, man, the way she interprets this,

1283
01:08:15,836 --> 01:08:18,236
Speaker 2: see some of Me with you one of the greatest question.

1284
01:08:20,076 --> 01:08:23,956
Speaker 1: Man, Well, thank you so much. We appreciate you using

1285
01:08:23,956 --> 01:08:30,276
Speaker 1: this was great. Thanks again the Babyface for talking through

1286
01:08:30,276 --> 01:08:32,996
Speaker 1: his career and playing for us. You can hear a

1287
01:08:33,036 --> 01:08:35,876
Speaker 1: playlist of all of our favorite Babyface songs, along with

1288
01:08:35,956 --> 01:08:40,876
Speaker 1: others he's written and produced. At broken record podcast dot com.

1289
01:08:40,996 --> 01:08:43,596
Speaker 1: You can subscribe to our YouTube channel at YouTube dot

1290
01:08:43,636 --> 01:08:46,716
Speaker 1: com slash broken Record Podcast. We can find all of

1291
01:08:46,716 --> 01:08:49,876
Speaker 1: our new episodes. You can follow us on Twitter at

1292
01:08:49,956 --> 01:08:53,716
Speaker 1: broken Record. Broken Record is produced with help from Leah Rose,

1293
01:08:53,916 --> 01:08:58,316
Speaker 1: Jason Gambrell, Ben Tolliday, and Eric Sander. Our editor is

1294
01:08:58,356 --> 01:09:02,356
Speaker 1: Sophie Craig. Broken Record is a production of Pushkin Industries.

1295
01:09:02,516 --> 01:09:04,876
Speaker 1: If you love this show and others from Pushkin, consider

1296
01:09:04,916 --> 01:09:09,076
Speaker 1: subscribing to Pushkin Points. Pushkin Plus is a podcast subscription

1297
01:09:09,356 --> 01:09:12,796
Speaker 1: that offers bonus content an uninterrupted ad free listening for

1298
01:09:12,916 --> 01:09:15,636
Speaker 1: four ninety nine a month. Look for Pushkin Plus on

1299
01:09:15,716 --> 01:09:18,916
Speaker 1: Apple podcast subscriptions, and if you like the show, please

1300
01:09:18,956 --> 01:09:21,996
Speaker 1: remember to share, rate, and review us on your podcast app.

1301
01:09:22,476 --> 01:09:25,396
Speaker 1: Our theme music is by Kenny Beats. I'm justin Richmond.