1 00:00:06,220 --> 00:00:08,540 Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name 2 00:00:08,600 --> 00:00:10,520 Speaker 1: is Robert Lamb. Today is Saturday, so I have a 3 00:00:10,560 --> 00:00:12,980 Speaker 1: vault episode for you. This one originally published 8-19-2025. It 4 00:00:13,110 --> 00:00:18,430 Speaker 1: is going to be The Wallace Line, Part 1. Let's 5 00:00:18,470 --> 00:00:18,720 Speaker 1: do it. 6 00:00:22,370 --> 00:00:25,350 Speaker 2: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of iHeartRadio. 7 00:00:32,280 --> 00:00:34,680 Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name 8 00:00:34,740 --> 00:00:35,400 Speaker 1: is Robert Lamb. 9 00:00:35,800 --> 00:00:36,949 Speaker 2: And I am Joe McCormick. 10 00:00:37,470 --> 00:00:40,210 Speaker 1: And as I mentioned in at least a couple of 11 00:00:40,250 --> 00:00:43,290 Speaker 1: previous episodes of the show, over the summer this year, 2025, 12 00:00:43,270 --> 00:00:48,670 Speaker 1: my family traveled to Indonesia for some snorkeling. And in 13 00:00:48,750 --> 00:00:52,220 Speaker 1: learning all about the local environment of Raja Ampat, the 14 00:00:52,260 --> 00:00:55,860 Speaker 1: guides kept mentioning an individual by the name of Alfred 15 00:00:55,940 --> 00:00:59,900 Speaker 1: Russell Wallace, as well as the faunal boundary named in 16 00:00:59,940 --> 00:01:02,490 Speaker 1: his honor, the Wallace Line. In fact, I would say 17 00:01:02,520 --> 00:01:05,860 Speaker 1: that Wallace was invoked one way or another, nearly as 18 00:01:05,920 --> 00:01:08,460 Speaker 1: much as Darwin was invoked on my visit to the 19 00:01:08,480 --> 00:01:12,860 Speaker 1: Galapagos Islands a couple of years prior. So, yeah, Wallace, 20 00:01:12,900 --> 00:01:15,420 Speaker 1: the Wallace line, I mentioned a lot in terms of 21 00:01:15,459 --> 00:01:18,220 Speaker 1: just describing what was happening in the natural world around 22 00:01:18,300 --> 00:01:20,119 Speaker 1: us and in Indonesia at large. 23 00:01:20,740 --> 00:01:23,340 Speaker 2: That's a funny comparison because, of course, if you know 24 00:01:23,580 --> 00:01:27,600 Speaker 2: one thing about Alfred Russell Wallace... It is probably that 25 00:01:27,740 --> 00:01:30,360 Speaker 2: he was the other guy to come up with a 26 00:01:30,480 --> 00:01:34,220 Speaker 2: version of the theory of evolution by natural selection around 27 00:01:34,260 --> 00:01:37,000 Speaker 2: the same time that Darwin did. Though Darwin tends to 28 00:01:37,030 --> 00:01:39,390 Speaker 2: get most of the credit. And I think in many ways, 29 00:01:39,430 --> 00:01:43,670 Speaker 2: people understand Darwin to have articulated a more rigorous form 30 00:01:43,770 --> 00:01:47,149 Speaker 2: of it. Wallace essentially had the same idea around the 31 00:01:47,190 --> 00:01:47,830 Speaker 2: same time. 32 00:01:48,430 --> 00:01:52,330 Speaker 1: And to be clear, they knew each other. And in fact, 33 00:01:52,940 --> 00:01:56,490 Speaker 1: Alfred Russell Wallace, you know, greatly looked up to Charles Darwin, 34 00:01:56,550 --> 00:02:00,150 Speaker 1: and they were on friendly terms their entire life, even 35 00:02:00,470 --> 00:02:02,790 Speaker 1: though they disagreed on some key issues here and there. 36 00:02:03,230 --> 00:02:06,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, actually, the version of the book that I 37 00:02:06,560 --> 00:02:10,419 Speaker 2: was reading, so it's Wallace's book, The Malay Archipelago, where 38 00:02:10,460 --> 00:02:14,380 Speaker 2: he's writing about his travels and observations in that region 39 00:02:14,400 --> 00:02:16,580 Speaker 2: of the world. The edition of that book that I 40 00:02:16,620 --> 00:02:19,290 Speaker 2: was reading is actually dedicated to Charles Darwin. He says, 41 00:02:19,330 --> 00:02:22,330 Speaker 2: To Charles Darwin and author of The Origin of Species, 42 00:02:22,550 --> 00:02:24,590 Speaker 2: I dedicate this book not only as a token of 43 00:02:24,669 --> 00:02:28,130 Speaker 2: personal esteem and friendship, but also to express my deep 44 00:02:28,350 --> 00:02:32,160 Speaker 2: admiration for his genius and his works. So it's elaborate. 45 00:02:32,220 --> 00:02:34,700 Speaker 2: It seems like no hard feelings there. 46 00:02:35,240 --> 00:02:39,020 Speaker 1: Right, right. It's also been pointed out that they knew 47 00:02:39,080 --> 00:02:40,780 Speaker 1: what each other were up to around the same time. 48 00:02:40,960 --> 00:02:47,590 Speaker 1: And Wallace's work and Wallace's ideas kind of poked Darwin 49 00:02:47,660 --> 00:02:49,609 Speaker 1: and got him to sort of realize, oh, I really 50 00:02:49,630 --> 00:02:51,780 Speaker 1: need to push Darwin forward with on the origin of 51 00:02:51,840 --> 00:02:54,829 Speaker 1: species and maybe not focus on other projects at this 52 00:02:54,870 --> 00:02:55,470 Speaker 1: very moment. 53 00:02:55,750 --> 00:02:57,709 Speaker 2: Stop collecting beetles, write the book. 54 00:02:58,550 --> 00:03:02,790 Speaker 1: Yes. So we'll be talking more about Alfred Russell Wallace 55 00:03:02,810 --> 00:03:05,230 Speaker 1: here shortly. Uh, but as for the Wallace line, uh, 56 00:03:05,850 --> 00:03:07,489 Speaker 1: I'm going to go ahead and throw out the short 57 00:03:07,590 --> 00:03:09,880 Speaker 1: answer of what this is and we'll get into it more, uh, 58 00:03:10,460 --> 00:03:13,680 Speaker 1: later in this episode and in the next episode. But basically, uh, 59 00:03:14,220 --> 00:03:18,990 Speaker 1: it represents the place, um, between the Indonesian islands of 60 00:03:19,050 --> 00:03:22,679 Speaker 1: Bali and Lombok, where the Australian and Asian faunas separate. 61 00:03:22,760 --> 00:03:27,739 Speaker 1: So it separates the Indonesian archipelago between the parts influenced 62 00:03:27,780 --> 00:03:31,850 Speaker 1: by Asian fauna and the parts influenced by Australian fauna. So, 63 00:03:31,910 --> 00:03:36,450 Speaker 1: you know, rhinos, elephants, tigers on one side, kangaroos, monitor lizards, 64 00:03:36,490 --> 00:03:37,490 Speaker 1: and koalas on the other. 65 00:03:37,930 --> 00:03:40,630 Speaker 2: Yes, exactly. With some caveats that we will discuss as 66 00:03:40,670 --> 00:03:42,070 Speaker 2: we move on throughout the series. 67 00:03:43,060 --> 00:03:45,680 Speaker 1: So let's talk a bit about Alfred Russell Wallace here. 68 00:03:46,160 --> 00:03:49,280 Speaker 1: You can look up images of the man, illustrations and photographs. 69 00:03:49,650 --> 00:03:53,510 Speaker 1: He was, of course, a 19th century naturalist, explorer, traveler, 70 00:03:53,890 --> 00:03:59,770 Speaker 1: academic writer, and totally looked the part, you know, English 71 00:03:59,910 --> 00:04:04,240 Speaker 1: beardy guy who's out there in the wild exploring things or, 72 00:04:04,260 --> 00:04:06,560 Speaker 1: you know, back at home in his study writing about them. 73 00:04:07,060 --> 00:04:10,540 Speaker 2: I was almost going to say if Darwin is almond joy. 74 00:04:10,900 --> 00:04:13,620 Speaker 2: Wallace looks like mounds. He just looks like a kind 75 00:04:13,680 --> 00:04:17,339 Speaker 2: of like, I don't know, a less crunchy version of Darwin. 76 00:04:17,580 --> 00:04:19,460 Speaker 2: Kind of a softer, smoother texture. 77 00:04:19,490 --> 00:04:22,370 Speaker 1: Yeah, you could definitely say that. And it holds up 78 00:04:22,400 --> 00:04:25,349 Speaker 1: in many ways. But in other ways, as we'll discuss, 79 00:04:25,550 --> 00:04:28,170 Speaker 1: Alfred Russell Wallace was kind of the almond joy to 80 00:04:28,190 --> 00:04:29,070 Speaker 1: Darwin's mounds. 81 00:04:29,650 --> 00:04:30,029 Speaker 2: Okay. 82 00:04:30,630 --> 00:04:33,870 Speaker 1: So, yeah, Alfred Russell Wallace lived 1823 through 1913. So 83 00:04:33,910 --> 00:04:40,800 Speaker 1: long lived. And a fascinating individual. Multiple books have come 84 00:04:40,880 --> 00:04:42,720 Speaker 1: out in recent years about him. But the one that 85 00:04:42,779 --> 00:04:45,419 Speaker 1: I was mainly looking at is Radical by Nature, The 86 00:04:45,460 --> 00:04:48,860 Speaker 1: Revolutionary Life of Alfred Russell Wallace. And this is by 87 00:04:48,960 --> 00:04:53,520 Speaker 1: James T. Costa. Came out in 2023. And as the 88 00:04:53,580 --> 00:04:56,480 Speaker 1: author points out, yeah, he was like a lot of people. 89 00:04:56,580 --> 00:04:59,820 Speaker 1: He was a complicated individual. And there were certainly some 90 00:04:59,900 --> 00:05:05,099 Speaker 1: seeming contradictions in the way he made sense of the world, 91 00:05:05,490 --> 00:05:09,210 Speaker 1: the natural world. humanity's place in the cosmos and so forth. 92 00:05:09,410 --> 00:05:11,020 Speaker 1: So I'm going to break into a little bit of 93 00:05:11,070 --> 00:05:14,500 Speaker 1: his biography here. I'm not going to go into super detail, 94 00:05:14,540 --> 00:05:15,620 Speaker 1: but I'm going to try and hit some of, I 95 00:05:15,640 --> 00:05:17,880 Speaker 1: think maybe the key points to getting like an overall 96 00:05:17,920 --> 00:05:21,260 Speaker 1: understanding of who this guy was and, and, uh, some 97 00:05:21,279 --> 00:05:23,880 Speaker 1: of the more interesting aspects of his life and certainly 98 00:05:23,900 --> 00:05:28,270 Speaker 1: those contradictions. So he was born to a middle-class Scotch 99 00:05:28,330 --> 00:05:31,270 Speaker 1: English family, a family on his father's side claimed to 100 00:05:31,670 --> 00:05:36,500 Speaker 1: have an ancestral connection to 13th century, uh, noted individual 101 00:05:36,540 --> 00:05:41,529 Speaker 1: William Wallace, the Braveheart guy, for those of you relying 102 00:05:41,850 --> 00:05:43,350 Speaker 1: on cinema for your history. 103 00:05:43,550 --> 00:05:46,590 Speaker 2: For fans of accurate history, yeah. 104 00:05:46,690 --> 00:05:49,979 Speaker 1: But yes, claimed to be descended from William Wallace, whether 105 00:05:50,010 --> 00:05:53,640 Speaker 1: that's true or not, who knows. But he initially worked 106 00:05:53,680 --> 00:05:56,960 Speaker 1: as a surveyor, but remained vitally interested in many aspects 107 00:05:57,000 --> 00:06:00,940 Speaker 1: of the world. So he was interested in botany and 108 00:06:01,830 --> 00:06:04,450 Speaker 1: He had all these other natural history pursuits that he 109 00:06:05,130 --> 00:06:07,010 Speaker 1: was leaning into. And at the same time, he was 110 00:06:07,070 --> 00:06:11,550 Speaker 1: also attending talks about socialism, about spiritualism. He was also 111 00:06:11,570 --> 00:06:12,930 Speaker 1: interested by mesmerism. 112 00:06:13,490 --> 00:06:17,010 Speaker 2: The practices of Franz Mesmer, also known as the theory 113 00:06:17,050 --> 00:06:22,729 Speaker 2: of animal magnetism, not given any credit today. Yeah, yeah, definitely. 114 00:06:22,910 --> 00:06:26,740 Speaker 1: But also gets into sort of the whole hypnosis sphere 115 00:06:27,200 --> 00:06:30,200 Speaker 1: of things for sure. On top of this, he taught, 116 00:06:30,260 --> 00:06:34,400 Speaker 1: he lectured, and of course he read. He was familiar 117 00:06:34,440 --> 00:06:37,790 Speaker 1: with the writings of the time of Alexander von Humboldt, 118 00:06:38,370 --> 00:06:42,370 Speaker 1: of Charles Darwin, and many others. And in part due 119 00:06:42,410 --> 00:06:45,310 Speaker 1: to their inspiration, he decided that he too would go 120 00:06:45,380 --> 00:06:48,020 Speaker 1: out and see the world as a naturalist explorer. 121 00:06:48,610 --> 00:06:51,790 Speaker 2: That's right, because, of course, Darwin became famous for his 122 00:06:51,850 --> 00:06:54,930 Speaker 2: writings about the voyage of the Beagle long before he 123 00:06:54,990 --> 00:06:57,750 Speaker 2: actually published on the origin of species. Before he had 124 00:06:57,810 --> 00:07:00,430 Speaker 2: a theory of evolution, he just had his travelogue of 125 00:07:00,690 --> 00:07:04,390 Speaker 2: observations going around the world on a ship called the Beagle. 126 00:07:04,800 --> 00:07:07,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, so that seems to very much be the blueprint 127 00:07:07,140 --> 00:07:09,880 Speaker 1: that Wallace has selected for his own life as well. 128 00:07:10,640 --> 00:07:14,860 Speaker 1: And so he departs on a journey to South America, 129 00:07:16,220 --> 00:07:19,500 Speaker 1: particularly focused on the Amazon. And he and his team there, 130 00:07:19,540 --> 00:07:23,040 Speaker 1: they're studying the peoples of these areas, the natural history 131 00:07:23,580 --> 00:07:27,000 Speaker 1: of this region. And then on the return trip, their 132 00:07:27,020 --> 00:07:29,640 Speaker 1: boat catches fire and they're stuck in a life raft for, 133 00:07:29,690 --> 00:07:33,210 Speaker 1: I believe, 10 days and then eventually rescued. So he 134 00:07:33,230 --> 00:07:36,450 Speaker 1: apparently lost all of his notes in this adventure, this 135 00:07:36,490 --> 00:07:38,510 Speaker 1: part of the adventure anyway, but he was still able 136 00:07:38,530 --> 00:07:40,910 Speaker 1: to write multiple papers about it when he got back 137 00:07:41,170 --> 00:07:43,610 Speaker 1: to England and Also, I believe that a number of 138 00:07:43,690 --> 00:07:46,800 Speaker 1: specimens that he'd collected had been shipped back ahead of time. 139 00:07:46,880 --> 00:07:49,800 Speaker 1: So not everything was lost, but a lot was lost 140 00:07:50,020 --> 00:07:52,540 Speaker 1: on that ship. But he wasn't quite done with traveling 141 00:07:52,580 --> 00:07:54,500 Speaker 1: and exploring, which may come as a shock because I 142 00:07:54,550 --> 00:07:56,350 Speaker 1: don't know. I think a lot of us might think 143 00:07:56,390 --> 00:07:58,810 Speaker 1: that once your ship has burned and you've wound up 144 00:07:58,970 --> 00:08:01,650 Speaker 1: in the lifeboat for 10 days, you might have had enough, 145 00:08:02,030 --> 00:08:03,730 Speaker 1: but not so for Wallace. 146 00:08:04,160 --> 00:08:06,200 Speaker 2: I'm going to read later in this episode from a 147 00:08:06,260 --> 00:08:08,820 Speaker 2: chapter in the Malay Archipelago where he's talking about his 148 00:08:08,880 --> 00:08:12,950 Speaker 2: experiences in Bali and Lombok. But he is not above 149 00:08:13,090 --> 00:08:16,910 Speaker 2: complaining about the hardships he faces on his journeys and 150 00:08:16,950 --> 00:08:19,970 Speaker 2: the difficulties he has in doing his work. But it 151 00:08:20,030 --> 00:08:24,120 Speaker 2: is still admirable that he can just face that kind 152 00:08:24,140 --> 00:08:25,380 Speaker 2: of thing and move right on. 153 00:08:25,840 --> 00:08:28,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, and in a way admirable that you can still... 154 00:08:28,960 --> 00:08:31,360 Speaker 1: be irritated by the little stuff later on, you know, 155 00:08:31,520 --> 00:08:34,100 Speaker 1: after having wound up in the lifeboat for 10 days 156 00:08:34,360 --> 00:08:37,000 Speaker 1: to still be able to say, ah, this desk is 157 00:08:37,040 --> 00:08:37,540 Speaker 1: the worst. 158 00:08:37,880 --> 00:08:40,160 Speaker 2: We're going to get some epic complaints about it's hard 159 00:08:40,179 --> 00:08:42,559 Speaker 2: to do science when everything is covered in ants. 160 00:08:43,500 --> 00:08:44,360 Speaker 1: Oh, good goodness. 161 00:08:44,420 --> 00:08:44,770 Speaker 2: I bet it. 162 00:08:44,820 --> 00:08:56,770 Speaker 1: I bet that is true. So anyway, he was not 163 00:08:56,830 --> 00:09:02,070 Speaker 1: done traveling. And after he'd gotten back and he'd published 164 00:09:02,130 --> 00:09:05,429 Speaker 1: a bit about his travels, he soon became fascinated with 165 00:09:05,450 --> 00:09:10,429 Speaker 1: the Malay archipelago or the Indo-Australian archipelago, consisting of what 166 00:09:10,470 --> 00:09:13,770 Speaker 1: is now Indonesia and neighboring nations, also known as the 167 00:09:13,850 --> 00:09:16,610 Speaker 1: East Indies at the time. His subsequent travels in this 168 00:09:16,670 --> 00:09:22,820 Speaker 1: region lasted from 1854 to 1862, so eight years. And 169 00:09:22,860 --> 00:09:26,179 Speaker 1: during this time, he and his hired team collected thousands 170 00:09:26,220 --> 00:09:29,969 Speaker 1: upon thousands of specimens. to return home and go to 171 00:09:30,010 --> 00:09:34,790 Speaker 1: various museums and institutions. I read a BBC article pointed 172 00:09:34,830 --> 00:09:39,750 Speaker 1: out that the number here was something like 125,660 natural 173 00:09:39,790 --> 00:09:43,510 Speaker 1: history specimens, including more than 83,000 beetles. 174 00:09:43,970 --> 00:09:46,959 Speaker 2: So the majority of it was beetles. Yeah, it's just 175 00:09:47,120 --> 00:09:50,520 Speaker 2: a lot of beetles. Well over half. 176 00:09:50,820 --> 00:09:52,320 Speaker 1: I mean, also, it seems like the beetles would be 177 00:09:52,520 --> 00:09:55,820 Speaker 1: relatively easy to send back there. Yeah, It's a lot 178 00:09:55,860 --> 00:09:57,679 Speaker 1: easier to send back a beetle as opposed to, say, 179 00:09:57,710 --> 00:09:58,530 Speaker 1: a Komodo dragon. 180 00:09:58,809 --> 00:10:01,160 Speaker 2: That's true. And once again, we're going to revisit why 181 00:10:01,200 --> 00:10:03,459 Speaker 2: it was so hard sometimes to send things back. 182 00:10:04,179 --> 00:10:06,579 Speaker 1: And of course, he wrote about his travels as well. 183 00:10:06,920 --> 00:10:10,420 Speaker 1: And this is when he wrote the 1869 book, The 184 00:10:10,470 --> 00:10:14,350 Speaker 1: Malay Archipelago. This is the book you were talking about earlier, 185 00:10:14,370 --> 00:10:17,150 Speaker 1: a book that would go on to become an international bestseller. 186 00:10:18,070 --> 00:10:21,070 Speaker 1: describing all the islands he visited, the sorts of natural 187 00:10:21,130 --> 00:10:24,469 Speaker 1: and human elements on each, a little bit of griping 188 00:10:24,530 --> 00:10:28,230 Speaker 1: about the ants and the deaths. But this is a 189 00:10:28,309 --> 00:10:33,230 Speaker 1: book that resonated with people within his profession and within academia, 190 00:10:33,510 --> 00:10:36,410 Speaker 1: but also outside of those boundaries. It was just a 191 00:10:36,429 --> 00:10:38,689 Speaker 1: book that a lot of people read, and it kind 192 00:10:38,710 --> 00:10:43,130 Speaker 1: of made him a celebrity. It cemented his status and 193 00:10:43,210 --> 00:10:45,490 Speaker 1: also ensured that he was able to keep going and 194 00:10:45,510 --> 00:10:51,250 Speaker 1: keep writing later on, certainly after a few economic setbacks 195 00:10:51,260 --> 00:10:52,020 Speaker 1: that he encountered. 196 00:10:52,510 --> 00:10:56,010 Speaker 2: I found it captivating. While we were preparing to record 197 00:10:56,050 --> 00:10:59,130 Speaker 2: this episode, I started reading a couple of chapters from 198 00:10:59,170 --> 00:11:03,830 Speaker 2: this book, mainly because I was looking for Wallace to 199 00:11:04,110 --> 00:11:07,530 Speaker 2: describe a scientific theory that we're going to get into. 200 00:11:07,550 --> 00:11:11,910 Speaker 2: And I ended up not finding really any succinct place 201 00:11:11,960 --> 00:11:13,800 Speaker 2: where he does describe this theory, but I was just 202 00:11:13,860 --> 00:11:16,920 Speaker 2: sucked into the writing because it's so interesting and so good. 203 00:11:17,970 --> 00:11:21,110 Speaker 2: And he in many ways reminds me of his contemporary 204 00:11:21,150 --> 00:11:23,780 Speaker 2: Darwin in that regard, who also, I think, and this, 205 00:11:23,820 --> 00:11:27,099 Speaker 2: of course, doesn't diminish from the validity of his theory, 206 00:11:27,140 --> 00:11:30,080 Speaker 2: but also just like Darwin's books are a great read. 207 00:11:30,200 --> 00:11:32,679 Speaker 2: They're like they're very well written. And I would say 208 00:11:32,720 --> 00:11:33,580 Speaker 2: Wallace's are, too. 209 00:11:33,600 --> 00:11:38,830 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah. The Malay Archipelago, volumes one and two, 210 00:11:40,429 --> 00:11:43,650 Speaker 1: the subtitle here being The Land of the Orangutan and 211 00:11:43,670 --> 00:11:46,449 Speaker 1: the Bird of Paradise, a narrative of travel with sketches 212 00:11:46,550 --> 00:11:47,350 Speaker 1: of man and nature. 213 00:11:47,809 --> 00:11:51,670 Speaker 2: Oh, well, Rob, since he mentions the orangutan in the title, 214 00:11:51,750 --> 00:11:54,280 Speaker 2: you should scroll down in the outline because I included 215 00:11:54,300 --> 00:12:00,500 Speaker 2: a screen capture of the page opposite the title page 216 00:12:00,559 --> 00:12:03,900 Speaker 2: in the 1890 edition I was reading, which has an 217 00:12:03,980 --> 00:12:08,960 Speaker 2: illustration of a brutal orangutan attack where the orangutan is 218 00:12:09,100 --> 00:12:11,319 Speaker 2: jumping on a guy and biting a chunk out of 219 00:12:11,360 --> 00:12:15,340 Speaker 2: his arm. I'm skeptical this happens that much in nature. 220 00:12:16,320 --> 00:12:18,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's generally not the reputation they have today. It's 221 00:12:18,880 --> 00:12:20,800 Speaker 1: so weird, though. This was the second time today I've 222 00:12:20,840 --> 00:12:24,440 Speaker 1: had to think about the possibility of a killer orangutan because, 223 00:12:25,880 --> 00:12:29,069 Speaker 1: as many of you are aware, the actor Terrence Stamp died, 224 00:12:29,390 --> 00:12:32,970 Speaker 1: I believe, over the weekend recently passed. And so there 225 00:12:32,990 --> 00:12:36,090 Speaker 1: was some chatter here and there about his past movies. 226 00:12:36,150 --> 00:12:37,870 Speaker 1: And I was looking around and I realized he was 227 00:12:37,910 --> 00:12:42,080 Speaker 1: in a 1986 film called Link that is about a 228 00:12:42,380 --> 00:12:48,100 Speaker 1: super intelligent... malicious chimpanzee, but the chimpanzee is played by 229 00:12:48,120 --> 00:12:48,720 Speaker 1: an orangutan. 230 00:12:49,240 --> 00:12:51,719 Speaker 2: Oh, okay. I thought you were going in a totally 231 00:12:51,760 --> 00:12:54,739 Speaker 2: different direction. I saw the headline that Terrence Stamp had died, which, 232 00:12:55,280 --> 00:12:58,250 Speaker 2: you know, kneel before Zod. And I don't mean any 233 00:12:58,280 --> 00:13:00,410 Speaker 2: disrespect here, but I truly thought you were going to 234 00:13:00,450 --> 00:13:02,429 Speaker 2: say he died in an orangutan attack. 235 00:13:02,670 --> 00:13:07,989 Speaker 1: No, goodness. No, no, but yeah, this illustration from the 236 00:13:08,030 --> 00:13:10,209 Speaker 1: book definitely made me think of that. But it also 237 00:13:10,230 --> 00:13:12,250 Speaker 1: has a rather sweet image of an orangutan here. 238 00:13:12,670 --> 00:13:17,050 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's both, yeah. But from what I understand, orangutans, 239 00:13:17,110 --> 00:13:20,150 Speaker 2: it's not that they can't attack humans. I think they're 240 00:13:20,320 --> 00:13:23,300 Speaker 2: known generally to only do this when like really threatened 241 00:13:23,360 --> 00:13:25,380 Speaker 2: in some way. They're not generally aggressive. 242 00:13:25,820 --> 00:13:29,640 Speaker 1: One thing we know from the interaction between humans and 243 00:13:29,740 --> 00:13:32,699 Speaker 1: animals is that if the animals can be provoked into 244 00:13:32,760 --> 00:13:35,500 Speaker 1: attacking humans, we will have done it at some point 245 00:13:35,540 --> 00:13:35,920 Speaker 1: or another. 246 00:13:36,360 --> 00:13:38,840 Speaker 2: Yeah. But though, of course, some animals are much easier 247 00:13:38,880 --> 00:13:41,530 Speaker 2: to provoke than others. And orangutans are not usually thought 248 00:13:41,570 --> 00:13:44,880 Speaker 2: to be on the super high end of provocability. However, 249 00:13:44,890 --> 00:13:46,199 Speaker 2: this illustration is sick. 250 00:13:46,400 --> 00:13:50,900 Speaker 1: Yeah, bites him right on the arm. But yeah, in 251 00:13:50,960 --> 00:13:53,480 Speaker 1: this book, though, this is where he does get in 252 00:13:53,640 --> 00:13:57,220 Speaker 1: a bit into the idea of the Wallace line. Now, 253 00:13:57,260 --> 00:14:00,479 Speaker 1: he didn't call it the Wallace line. I believe Darwin's bulldog, 254 00:14:00,520 --> 00:14:04,330 Speaker 1: Thomas Henry Huxley, called it that in his honor. But 255 00:14:04,350 --> 00:14:06,010 Speaker 1: he does get into the concept a little bit. 256 00:14:06,370 --> 00:14:12,150 Speaker 2: Huxley also proposed some modifications to Wallace's original placement of 257 00:14:12,210 --> 00:14:12,610 Speaker 2: the lines. 258 00:14:13,390 --> 00:14:15,350 Speaker 1: Now we get into the details in a bit, but 259 00:14:15,890 --> 00:14:19,250 Speaker 1: basically the way that Costa describes it in his book 260 00:14:19,410 --> 00:14:25,450 Speaker 1: is it was the realization that there was a growing realization, quote, 261 00:14:25,550 --> 00:14:30,850 Speaker 1: a growing awareness among naturalists that anomalous patterns of distribution 262 00:14:30,950 --> 00:14:34,210 Speaker 1: might provide unique insights into the history of the planet, 263 00:14:34,650 --> 00:14:40,880 Speaker 1: geologically and climatologically. So again, this was This was happening 264 00:14:41,070 --> 00:14:43,050 Speaker 1: with Wallace, but this was happening in other parts of 265 00:14:43,090 --> 00:14:48,270 Speaker 1: the world with naturalists looking at distribution data and saying, hmm, well, 266 00:14:48,290 --> 00:14:51,250 Speaker 1: this is interesting. We have X going on here, Y 267 00:14:51,310 --> 00:14:53,990 Speaker 1: going on here. What does this tell us about how 268 00:14:54,030 --> 00:14:56,950 Speaker 1: the world works, about how species have moved around or 269 00:14:56,990 --> 00:15:00,250 Speaker 1: been moved around, about some of the barriers and potential 270 00:15:00,290 --> 00:15:02,030 Speaker 1: barriers to their movement. 271 00:15:01,670 --> 00:15:05,140 Speaker 2: And so forth? Yeah, and about the abiotic history of 272 00:15:05,180 --> 00:15:08,240 Speaker 2: the planet, like the fact that the distribution of animals 273 00:15:08,320 --> 00:15:11,190 Speaker 2: as you find them today can tell you things about 274 00:15:11,270 --> 00:15:14,830 Speaker 2: the history of climate change on the planet, about ice 275 00:15:14,970 --> 00:15:19,510 Speaker 2: ages and sea levels, and even about underlying geologic activity, 276 00:15:19,890 --> 00:15:23,020 Speaker 2: such as plate tectonics, which would not be, you know, 277 00:15:23,080 --> 00:15:27,140 Speaker 2: fully accepted as a theory, I think, until 1960s or so, much, 278 00:15:27,160 --> 00:15:27,640 Speaker 2: much later. 279 00:15:28,120 --> 00:15:31,860 Speaker 1: So we mentioned the fact that he independently came up 280 00:15:31,900 --> 00:15:34,660 Speaker 1: with the concept of evolution by natural selection around the 281 00:15:34,700 --> 00:15:37,750 Speaker 1: same time as Darwin, and then Darwin kind of pushes 282 00:15:37,810 --> 00:15:42,000 Speaker 1: ahead and gets... on the origin of species out. In 283 00:15:42,120 --> 00:15:45,340 Speaker 1: some ways, Wallace was also an early environmentalist in his 284 00:15:45,420 --> 00:15:50,140 Speaker 1: voice concern over humanity's impact on the planet. And he 285 00:15:50,180 --> 00:15:52,920 Speaker 1: also engaged in a number of social activism causes during 286 00:15:52,970 --> 00:15:58,710 Speaker 1: his life, including women's suffrage, land nationalization, and various sort 287 00:15:58,750 --> 00:16:04,830 Speaker 1: of pacifist and anti-militarism causes. But in an area that 288 00:16:04,890 --> 00:16:08,250 Speaker 1: might seem rather contradictory to all of these scientific pursuits, 289 00:16:08,630 --> 00:16:11,989 Speaker 1: he was also a spiritualist. And not just one in 290 00:16:12,050 --> 00:16:17,010 Speaker 1: his non-academic life, not just like, okay, I'm, you know, scientific, academic, 291 00:16:17,050 --> 00:16:19,800 Speaker 1: a naturalist by day and a spiritualist by night. No, 292 00:16:19,840 --> 00:16:22,520 Speaker 1: he actively wrote on it and attempted to defend it 293 00:16:22,620 --> 00:16:23,740 Speaker 1: in academic writings. 294 00:16:24,280 --> 00:16:28,320 Speaker 2: Now, to clarify, in the context of these 19th century movements, 295 00:16:28,360 --> 00:16:31,180 Speaker 2: when we say a spiritualist, that doesn't mean the same 296 00:16:31,250 --> 00:16:34,110 Speaker 2: thing as like somebody who would say, oh, I'm spiritual today. 297 00:16:34,170 --> 00:16:37,840 Speaker 2: That would This means something more specific about like beliefs 298 00:16:37,920 --> 00:16:40,580 Speaker 2: that you could contact the dead or that you could, 299 00:16:41,020 --> 00:16:45,040 Speaker 2: that living persons could have communication with spirits or other 300 00:16:45,100 --> 00:16:46,940 Speaker 2: beings other than living humans. 301 00:16:47,160 --> 00:16:51,500 Speaker 1: Yeah, we're talking about, specifically here, we're talking about the 302 00:16:51,600 --> 00:16:53,710 Speaker 1: sort of spiritualists that you would go to and there'd 303 00:16:53,730 --> 00:16:57,050 Speaker 1: be a seance or there would, you know, offer generally 304 00:16:57,090 --> 00:16:59,490 Speaker 1: for money to help you connect with the spirits of 305 00:16:59,530 --> 00:17:02,070 Speaker 1: the dead. The kind of people that Houdini did not 306 00:17:02,130 --> 00:17:05,200 Speaker 1: like Uh, the kind of, uh, people, if you're, if 307 00:17:05,220 --> 00:17:07,520 Speaker 1: you watch the gilded age on television, the most recent 308 00:17:07,619 --> 00:17:10,710 Speaker 1: season has, uh, has included this element in its plot. 309 00:17:11,170 --> 00:17:13,530 Speaker 2: Yeah. It's come up on the show before that actually 310 00:17:13,550 --> 00:17:18,139 Speaker 2: a surprising number of people from history and, um, In 311 00:17:18,380 --> 00:17:22,180 Speaker 2: 19th century Europe and America, people who are in many 312 00:17:22,240 --> 00:17:25,940 Speaker 2: ways kind of admirable for their time really got into spiritualism, 313 00:17:26,020 --> 00:17:27,600 Speaker 2: really thought you could talk to the dead. 314 00:17:27,840 --> 00:17:30,990 Speaker 1: Sir Arthur Conan Doyle is a prime example of this, 315 00:17:31,030 --> 00:17:34,830 Speaker 1: really got into it late in life. So, you know, 316 00:17:35,369 --> 00:17:38,629 Speaker 1: it's one of those things where there are multiple pieces 317 00:17:38,710 --> 00:17:41,970 Speaker 1: to it, as I think we've probably discussed in the past. 318 00:17:41,990 --> 00:17:44,990 Speaker 1: On one level, you do have people actively selling you 319 00:17:45,040 --> 00:17:48,389 Speaker 1: this stuff. And on the other, you have people a 320 00:17:48,530 --> 00:17:53,110 Speaker 1: genuine desire on the part of the bereaved to connect 321 00:17:53,470 --> 00:17:57,470 Speaker 1: with the people they miss. And, you know, there's in 322 00:17:57,510 --> 00:18:00,010 Speaker 1: a perfect world, there's probably a balance there between the 323 00:18:00,070 --> 00:18:03,060 Speaker 1: two where no one's exploited and everyone's life is made 324 00:18:03,100 --> 00:18:05,639 Speaker 1: a little easier, but we don't live in such a world. 325 00:18:05,720 --> 00:18:09,020 Speaker 1: And so things will often lean in the wrong direction there. 326 00:18:09,560 --> 00:18:11,619 Speaker 1: But again, not just a naturalist by day and a 327 00:18:11,660 --> 00:18:14,240 Speaker 1: spiritualist by night. Like I say, he wrote papers where 328 00:18:14,280 --> 00:18:17,480 Speaker 1: he defended spiritualism and so forth. Yeah. Now, on the 329 00:18:17,520 --> 00:18:22,350 Speaker 1: other hand, he opposed flat earth pseudoscience of the day 330 00:18:22,410 --> 00:18:25,490 Speaker 1: and wrote against that. And then going back to the 331 00:18:25,530 --> 00:18:29,010 Speaker 1: other side of things, he did involve himself in anti-vaccination 332 00:18:29,090 --> 00:18:32,340 Speaker 1: efforts of the day. This would have been, I believe, measles, 333 00:18:32,580 --> 00:18:35,500 Speaker 1: the vaccine that he was opposed to. But in his 334 00:18:35,560 --> 00:18:37,880 Speaker 1: opposition seems to have been a mix of like sort 335 00:18:37,900 --> 00:18:39,919 Speaker 1: of personal choice, like I don't want to take it. 336 00:18:40,990 --> 00:18:44,869 Speaker 1: that we see similar attitudes today, but also it seemed 337 00:18:44,910 --> 00:18:49,160 Speaker 1: to factor into his view that nature was perfectly balanced already, 338 00:18:49,760 --> 00:18:52,300 Speaker 1: and therefore there was no reason to tip the scales 339 00:18:52,380 --> 00:18:54,660 Speaker 1: as far as diseases go. I don't know. I would 340 00:18:54,680 --> 00:18:56,820 Speaker 1: say that the counterargument to that is that as far 341 00:18:56,859 --> 00:19:00,169 Speaker 1: as diseases and humanity go, that everything is already out 342 00:19:00,190 --> 00:19:04,209 Speaker 1: of balance, and therefore you need the vaccines in place. Well, yeah. 343 00:19:04,290 --> 00:19:07,459 Speaker 2: I mean, a lot of the times people prefer one 344 00:19:07,540 --> 00:19:10,760 Speaker 2: course of action over another because it's more natural. It 345 00:19:10,780 --> 00:19:13,700 Speaker 2: just kind of reflects a vague and not very well 346 00:19:13,740 --> 00:19:17,180 Speaker 2: thought out understanding of what the concept natural really means. 347 00:19:17,200 --> 00:19:18,660 Speaker 2: I mean, there are a lot of things that just 348 00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:22,119 Speaker 2: kind of seem natural to you, but then you investigate 349 00:19:22,160 --> 00:19:24,899 Speaker 2: them and realize they're actually very much the product of 350 00:19:25,140 --> 00:19:27,380 Speaker 2: human intervention in some way. Yeah. 351 00:19:27,400 --> 00:19:29,830 Speaker 1: Plus extinction is natural. It doesn't mean I want it 352 00:19:29,850 --> 00:19:30,890 Speaker 1: for myself. Yeah. 353 00:19:30,910 --> 00:19:33,800 Speaker 2: It is natural to just like all get disease and die. 354 00:19:33,930 --> 00:19:34,270 Speaker 1: Sure. 355 00:19:34,290 --> 00:19:35,189 Speaker 2: I mean, is that good? Yeah. 356 00:19:37,490 --> 00:19:40,800 Speaker 1: So yeah, he was an interesting guy in this. His 357 00:19:40,840 --> 00:19:43,879 Speaker 1: spiritualism especially did put him at odds with many of 358 00:19:43,940 --> 00:19:48,520 Speaker 1: his fellow scientists. And even when it came to evolution 359 00:19:48,840 --> 00:19:53,110 Speaker 1: by natural selection, he argued for a kind of evolution 360 00:19:53,350 --> 00:19:57,750 Speaker 1: driven by the divine, essentially that animals evolve via natural 361 00:19:57,790 --> 00:20:01,300 Speaker 1: selection and humans did to a point, and then some 362 00:20:01,390 --> 00:20:05,859 Speaker 1: other force takes over. Something divine, he didn't actually call 363 00:20:05,880 --> 00:20:09,590 Speaker 1: it a creator because interestingly enough, he himself was a 364 00:20:09,609 --> 00:20:14,410 Speaker 1: religious skeptic. So he at different times self-identified as agnostic 365 00:20:14,490 --> 00:20:17,740 Speaker 1: or just a non-religious person. And so he referred to 366 00:20:17,780 --> 00:20:20,060 Speaker 1: this as an overruling intelligence. 367 00:20:20,920 --> 00:20:24,480 Speaker 2: It's interesting how if you go back just a hundred 368 00:20:24,500 --> 00:20:27,410 Speaker 2: years or so, you get a lot of fine distinctions 369 00:20:27,490 --> 00:20:30,350 Speaker 2: in religious beliefs where the distinctions don't make a lot 370 00:20:30,390 --> 00:20:33,070 Speaker 2: of sense to people today, but they made sense to 371 00:20:33,109 --> 00:20:33,770 Speaker 2: people at the time. 372 00:20:34,250 --> 00:20:38,060 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. He was a firm believer that He thought 373 00:20:38,080 --> 00:20:42,540 Speaker 1: without this overruling intelligence becoming involved, there's no way that 374 00:20:43,080 --> 00:20:46,189 Speaker 1: the human brain or human speech organs or even our 375 00:20:46,230 --> 00:20:50,750 Speaker 1: hands or our bipedal posture could have possibly evolved. There 376 00:20:50,790 --> 00:20:55,190 Speaker 1: had to be some other force, like a monolith, getting 377 00:20:55,230 --> 00:20:59,189 Speaker 1: involved in our advancement. Yeah. And, you know, that's kind 378 00:20:59,210 --> 00:21:00,700 Speaker 1: of a sticky idea. That's why we see it all 379 00:21:00,740 --> 00:21:02,520 Speaker 1: over our science fiction, right? Yeah, yeah. 380 00:21:02,619 --> 00:21:04,399 Speaker 2: And, you know, it's still a common idea. I mean, 381 00:21:04,420 --> 00:21:08,320 Speaker 2: this is formally argued by creationists today, but I mean, 382 00:21:08,440 --> 00:21:11,820 Speaker 2: it's still, it's naturally appealing to look at something very 383 00:21:11,920 --> 00:21:16,220 Speaker 2: complex and think, well, that couldn't have just happened. Of course, 384 00:21:16,580 --> 00:21:19,000 Speaker 2: I think that the leap that you're not able to 385 00:21:19,060 --> 00:21:21,960 Speaker 2: make there is that it happened gradually and by degrees. 386 00:21:22,810 --> 00:21:25,750 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. And, you know, I often think about this. 387 00:21:25,810 --> 00:21:29,100 Speaker 1: I think that, okay, you know, a much, softened version 388 00:21:29,140 --> 00:21:33,260 Speaker 1: of this is maybe quite reasonable in a quite reasonable 389 00:21:33,300 --> 00:21:36,060 Speaker 1: way to balance science and religious faith. You know, say, well, okay, 390 00:21:36,140 --> 00:21:39,399 Speaker 1: evolution by natural selection is the method by which the 391 00:21:39,440 --> 00:21:42,389 Speaker 1: divine creates life. And why not? Because it seems like 392 00:21:42,430 --> 00:21:45,870 Speaker 1: the very sort of elaborate, long-term method that an eternal 393 00:21:45,910 --> 00:21:49,840 Speaker 1: and all-powerful entity, unconstrained by time, might very well employ. 394 00:21:50,340 --> 00:21:52,260 Speaker 2: Sure. I mean, I think that's what millions of people 395 00:21:52,300 --> 00:21:52,800 Speaker 2: believe today. 396 00:21:53,119 --> 00:21:53,300 Speaker 1: Yeah. 397 00:21:53,680 --> 00:21:54,300 Speaker 2: Nothing wrong with that. 398 00:21:55,000 --> 00:21:57,040 Speaker 1: Yeah. On the other hand, it is worth stressing that 399 00:21:57,119 --> 00:21:59,139 Speaker 1: when you get into the particulars of this sort of 400 00:21:59,180 --> 00:22:04,370 Speaker 1: stance saying, well, OK, everything evolves, but then humans evolve differently. 401 00:22:04,460 --> 00:22:08,090 Speaker 1: Human brains are different because of some divine force. You 402 00:22:08,109 --> 00:22:11,570 Speaker 1: can get into some. really nasty and even racist views 403 00:22:11,670 --> 00:22:14,969 Speaker 1: on human evolution by deciding just where and how you 404 00:22:15,010 --> 00:22:17,030 Speaker 1: want to deploy this theory. Ah, yeah. 405 00:22:17,090 --> 00:22:21,050 Speaker 2: Okay. So appealing to supernatural forces to inject a certain 406 00:22:21,190 --> 00:22:25,600 Speaker 2: specialness into, you know, certain, you know, animals on earth. 407 00:22:25,700 --> 00:22:28,840 Speaker 2: And certainly there's nothing that prevents somebody from thinking that 408 00:22:28,900 --> 00:22:30,780 Speaker 2: some humans are more special than others. 409 00:22:31,160 --> 00:22:33,859 Speaker 1: Right, right. So I'm not saying that was Wallace's whole deal, 410 00:22:33,920 --> 00:22:35,959 Speaker 1: but those are kind of, those are the waters you 411 00:22:35,980 --> 00:22:38,550 Speaker 1: can easily creep into by pursuing this line of thinking. 412 00:22:38,869 --> 00:22:38,989 Speaker 2: Yeah. 413 00:22:39,520 --> 00:22:42,360 Speaker 1: Now, with Wallace, it certainly put him at odds with 414 00:22:42,380 --> 00:22:46,640 Speaker 1: many of his fellow scientists, including Charles Darwin himself, who 415 00:22:47,869 --> 00:22:51,310 Speaker 1: worried that Wallace was hurting their cause by adding this 416 00:22:51,369 --> 00:22:54,990 Speaker 1: caveat to his own take on natural selection. And according 417 00:22:55,030 --> 00:22:56,950 Speaker 1: to Costa, he even wrote to him and said, quote, 418 00:22:57,310 --> 00:23:00,070 Speaker 1: I hope you have not murdered too completely your own 419 00:23:00,170 --> 00:23:04,930 Speaker 1: and my child, referring to the theory of natural selection. Again, 420 00:23:04,950 --> 00:23:09,939 Speaker 1: these two points, were friends and, um, and, and, uh, Wallace, 421 00:23:10,040 --> 00:23:13,260 Speaker 1: you know, continued to respect Darwin the rest of his life. Uh, 422 00:23:13,380 --> 00:23:17,790 Speaker 1: but yeah, Darwin rather bluntly saying, uh, I really wish 423 00:23:17,830 --> 00:23:19,909 Speaker 1: you hadn't put it like that, you know, trying to 424 00:23:19,950 --> 00:23:22,669 Speaker 1: get this theory of natural selection out the door and 425 00:23:22,710 --> 00:23:25,290 Speaker 1: accept it at this point. And you're perhaps muddying the 426 00:23:25,330 --> 00:23:28,030 Speaker 1: waters by coming in with this, uh, you know, your 427 00:23:28,150 --> 00:23:31,050 Speaker 1: unique spiritualist take on everything. Yeah. 428 00:23:31,730 --> 00:23:33,330 Speaker 2: Though, I guess one thing that's supposed to be good 429 00:23:33,369 --> 00:23:35,410 Speaker 2: about being friends is that you can be Frank with 430 00:23:35,450 --> 00:23:35,770 Speaker 2: each other. 431 00:23:35,790 --> 00:23:40,010 Speaker 1: Yeah. But yeah, Wallace seems to have been a guy who, 432 00:23:40,070 --> 00:23:42,210 Speaker 1: as I think Costa puts it at one point, he 433 00:23:42,260 --> 00:23:44,900 Speaker 1: had a lot of adventures and a lot of opinions 434 00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:48,060 Speaker 1: in his life. He was real quick to weigh in 435 00:23:48,140 --> 00:23:51,440 Speaker 1: on things. And well into his 80s, he was still 436 00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:53,700 Speaker 1: doing this. I mean, I think until the end of 437 00:23:53,720 --> 00:23:57,649 Speaker 1: his life, pretty much constantly writing letters, writing his own 438 00:23:57,690 --> 00:24:02,710 Speaker 1: take on different topics. And in fact, in 1904, he 439 00:24:02,730 --> 00:24:05,730 Speaker 1: put out the book, Man's Place in the Universe. And 440 00:24:05,770 --> 00:24:09,980 Speaker 1: in that, he takes his own serious look at the 441 00:24:10,080 --> 00:24:13,800 Speaker 1: idea of life on other planets, especially Mars, because this, 442 00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:16,000 Speaker 1: of course, is the time when we have the whole 443 00:24:16,280 --> 00:24:21,760 Speaker 1: canals of Mars idea out there in everyone's minds. You know, 444 00:24:21,780 --> 00:24:24,010 Speaker 1: the idea that we've seen things on Mars and what 445 00:24:24,030 --> 00:24:26,590 Speaker 1: if they're canals and we get this built up idea 446 00:24:26,790 --> 00:24:29,850 Speaker 1: of their people of some sort on Mars and they're 447 00:24:29,869 --> 00:24:32,330 Speaker 1: a dying race and they're having to build these canals 448 00:24:32,410 --> 00:24:34,750 Speaker 1: and so forth. It really captivated everyone's imagination. 449 00:24:35,060 --> 00:24:38,040 Speaker 2: We've talked about that at some length on episodes in 450 00:24:38,060 --> 00:24:42,179 Speaker 2: the past, and now I don't remember which ones. Did 451 00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:45,139 Speaker 2: that possibly come up in our discussion of the ashen 452 00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:46,180 Speaker 2: light of Venus? 453 00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:48,220 Speaker 1: It might have, yes. 454 00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:49,440 Speaker 2: That's my best guess. 455 00:24:50,020 --> 00:24:52,260 Speaker 1: So this was a 1904 book, and I have not 456 00:24:52,340 --> 00:24:55,139 Speaker 1: read it, but Costa gives his own breakdown of it 457 00:24:55,180 --> 00:24:58,400 Speaker 1: and points out that, okay, he's basically opposing the idea 458 00:24:58,420 --> 00:25:00,830 Speaker 1: of life on Mars on two levels. On one level, 459 00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:06,709 Speaker 1: He is making a very logic-based counter-argument. He himself was 460 00:25:06,750 --> 00:25:09,510 Speaker 1: an astronomer, and he's pointing out things about what was 461 00:25:09,609 --> 00:25:13,270 Speaker 1: known about Mars versus Earth at the time. He just 462 00:25:13,290 --> 00:25:15,830 Speaker 1: did not think it was likely that this was true. 463 00:25:15,910 --> 00:25:19,020 Speaker 1: And of course, as we would find out very shortly thereafter, 464 00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:22,359 Speaker 1: it wasn't true. But as Costa points out, it also 465 00:25:22,420 --> 00:25:26,080 Speaker 1: ran opposite to his belief that humans had a privileged 466 00:25:26,119 --> 00:25:29,530 Speaker 1: place in the cosmos, that we were The end result 467 00:25:29,570 --> 00:25:33,450 Speaker 1: of not only earthly processes, but also cosmic processes as well. 468 00:25:33,930 --> 00:25:37,360 Speaker 1: This getting into the whole idea of humans were special 469 00:25:37,410 --> 00:25:40,659 Speaker 1: because some sort of force beyond us had pushed us 470 00:25:41,180 --> 00:25:44,500 Speaker 1: into these like upper levels of evolution that were denied 471 00:25:44,580 --> 00:25:48,100 Speaker 1: to other, you know, or other organic life forms on Earth. 472 00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:51,840 Speaker 2: So the overruling intelligence of Wallace's view of the universe 473 00:25:51,859 --> 00:25:53,600 Speaker 2: would not have allowed life on Mars. 474 00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:56,159 Speaker 1: Right, right. The whole idea is that we're alone and 475 00:25:56,180 --> 00:25:59,300 Speaker 1: we're special. If we've got life next door as well, 476 00:26:00,500 --> 00:26:03,380 Speaker 1: then that just destroys the whole argument. So that seems 477 00:26:03,420 --> 00:26:06,380 Speaker 1: like it might have also been there, you know, pushing 478 00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:10,920 Speaker 1: his criticism of this idea. Though, to be clear, this book, 479 00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:15,820 Speaker 1: he's also apparently very polite in his takedown of the 480 00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:21,580 Speaker 1: Martian Canal incident. Because he, you know, he's ultimately, you know, 481 00:26:21,619 --> 00:26:24,880 Speaker 1: friends or at least correspondents with everyone that's talking about 482 00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:25,440 Speaker 1: it at the time. 483 00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:29,040 Speaker 2: Boy, I'm sorry if I misunderstood. Did he also have 484 00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:34,199 Speaker 2: like observation based or empirical reasons for doubting canals on Mars? Yes. 485 00:26:34,280 --> 00:26:37,810 Speaker 1: It wasn't just based in his worldview, but no doubt 486 00:26:37,850 --> 00:26:41,070 Speaker 1: that worldview was also pushing him to make all of 487 00:26:41,109 --> 00:26:41,989 Speaker 1: these arguments, you know. 488 00:26:42,410 --> 00:26:45,270 Speaker 2: Okay. So he was right, but for some of the 489 00:26:45,310 --> 00:26:46,850 Speaker 2: right and some of the wrong reasons. 490 00:26:47,340 --> 00:26:49,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, that seems to be the take on it. But again, 491 00:26:49,540 --> 00:27:01,830 Speaker 1: I haven't actually read the book in question. So again, 492 00:27:01,850 --> 00:27:05,149 Speaker 1: that's just a brief overview of the man here. I 493 00:27:05,430 --> 00:27:08,629 Speaker 1: think it highlights some of the inherent contradictions that are 494 00:27:08,650 --> 00:27:11,100 Speaker 1: present there that ultimately are going to be present in anybody. 495 00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:14,460 Speaker 1: But maybe you're a little more expressed in the biography 496 00:27:14,859 --> 00:27:16,560 Speaker 1: of Alfred Russell Wallace. Yeah. 497 00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:21,100 Speaker 2: Very interesting character. And so I guess now should we 498 00:27:21,660 --> 00:27:24,080 Speaker 2: move on to talking a bit about the Wallace line, 499 00:27:24,119 --> 00:27:26,100 Speaker 2: at least what the concept is? And then I think 500 00:27:26,260 --> 00:27:29,290 Speaker 2: maybe in part two, we'll get into some more depth 501 00:27:29,350 --> 00:27:32,160 Speaker 2: about it, nuances that have been added to it since 502 00:27:32,220 --> 00:27:33,070 Speaker 2: the time of Wallace. 503 00:27:33,350 --> 00:27:33,629 Speaker 1: Yeah. 504 00:27:34,050 --> 00:27:35,929 Speaker 2: All right. So we alluded to this earlier, but to 505 00:27:35,970 --> 00:27:40,450 Speaker 2: recenter us here, in addition to independently discovering a version 506 00:27:40,490 --> 00:27:43,109 Speaker 2: of the theory of evolution by natural selection, again, around 507 00:27:43,150 --> 00:27:46,240 Speaker 2: the same time Darwin did, Alfred Russell Wallace is also 508 00:27:46,380 --> 00:27:52,500 Speaker 2: widely considered the founder of a field now known as biogeography, 509 00:27:52,940 --> 00:27:56,840 Speaker 2: the study of how life is distributed over the surface 510 00:27:56,960 --> 00:27:59,230 Speaker 2: of the earth. Another way to put it is what 511 00:27:59,310 --> 00:28:02,680 Speaker 2: lives where and why. By the way, you mentioned him earlier, 512 00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:07,380 Speaker 2: but another important contributor to the early study of biogeography 513 00:28:07,460 --> 00:28:12,530 Speaker 2: was the pre-Darwinian German naturalist, Alexander von Humboldt. Very interesting 514 00:28:12,590 --> 00:28:14,250 Speaker 2: figure who we've talked about a good bit on the 515 00:28:14,290 --> 00:28:17,629 Speaker 2: show before. I think one of the main contexts was 516 00:28:18,210 --> 00:28:21,170 Speaker 2: in a summer reading episode we did years ago where 517 00:28:21,190 --> 00:28:23,429 Speaker 2: I was talking about a great biography of him by 518 00:28:23,530 --> 00:28:27,940 Speaker 2: Andrea Wolff called The Invention of Nature. Von Humboldt was 519 00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:31,780 Speaker 2: important in helping to move the burgeoning natural sciences of 520 00:28:31,859 --> 00:28:37,060 Speaker 2: the 19th century away from this long-held Western view of 521 00:28:37,140 --> 00:28:41,120 Speaker 2: nature as a fixed order of discrete entities with eternal 522 00:28:41,220 --> 00:28:44,740 Speaker 2: roles defined by providence, and to replace that with a 523 00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:50,700 Speaker 2: view of nature as a complex and changeable web of relationships, 524 00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:55,959 Speaker 2: these interdependencies that are constantly in flux. Though unlike Darwin 525 00:28:55,980 --> 00:28:59,310 Speaker 2: and Wallace, von Humboldt himself never fully embraced the idea 526 00:28:59,350 --> 00:29:02,550 Speaker 2: that species themselves could evolve. His idea of change was 527 00:29:02,590 --> 00:29:06,910 Speaker 2: more based on the environment and relationships between species. So 528 00:29:07,110 --> 00:29:11,130 Speaker 2: Darwin and Wallace ended up going beyond von Humboldt. But anyway, 529 00:29:11,170 --> 00:29:13,830 Speaker 2: as I said, biogeography is the study of what lives 530 00:29:13,950 --> 00:29:18,310 Speaker 2: where and why. And one of Wallace's most famous observations 531 00:29:18,350 --> 00:29:22,740 Speaker 2: in biogeography is the Wallace line. The Wallace line is 532 00:29:22,820 --> 00:29:27,610 Speaker 2: what's known as a biogeographical boundary line, specifically a faunal 533 00:29:27,690 --> 00:29:31,330 Speaker 2: boundary in this case, meaning a boundary with reference to animals. 534 00:29:31,530 --> 00:29:35,370 Speaker 2: So it's an invisible border where you have one ecosystem 535 00:29:35,410 --> 00:29:38,410 Speaker 2: of animal species on one side of the line and 536 00:29:38,430 --> 00:29:42,320 Speaker 2: a very different collection of animals. on the other. Animal 537 00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:48,100 Speaker 2: populations are not usually divided by hard boundaries. Normally, as 538 00:29:48,140 --> 00:29:52,620 Speaker 2: you wander toward the edge of an animal's population range, 539 00:29:53,310 --> 00:29:57,210 Speaker 2: you will notice a gradual thinning out of the population 540 00:29:57,230 --> 00:30:00,620 Speaker 2: with the number of individuals becoming less and less dense, 541 00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:05,480 Speaker 2: sometimes being replaced more and more gradually with examples of 542 00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:09,140 Speaker 2: different species in the same trophic niche, meaning they compete 543 00:30:09,180 --> 00:30:12,330 Speaker 2: for the same food resources. So you may be moving 544 00:30:12,430 --> 00:30:14,550 Speaker 2: out of the range of one animal species and into 545 00:30:14,570 --> 00:30:18,410 Speaker 2: the range of another gradually, gradually in both cases. For 546 00:30:18,430 --> 00:30:21,210 Speaker 2: the most part, the geographic range of an animal species 547 00:30:21,250 --> 00:30:23,910 Speaker 2: does not end in a hard boundary, but in a 548 00:30:24,030 --> 00:30:29,540 Speaker 2: soft and gradual one. But there are exceptions. Sometimes you 549 00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:32,780 Speaker 2: kind of hit a wall where there is one set 550 00:30:32,820 --> 00:30:35,960 Speaker 2: of animals over here and a pretty different set over there. 551 00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:39,080 Speaker 2: And that is to a large extent what we find 552 00:30:39,180 --> 00:30:41,820 Speaker 2: with Wallace's line, though, as we'll discuss, there are some 553 00:30:41,860 --> 00:30:45,290 Speaker 2: exceptions to this rule and some major nuances added since 554 00:30:45,370 --> 00:30:49,830 Speaker 2: Wallace first proposed this border in in the 1860s. In fact, 555 00:30:50,430 --> 00:30:55,520 Speaker 2: basically all biogeographical boundaries are somewhat permeable. You will find 556 00:30:55,600 --> 00:31:00,320 Speaker 2: exceptions to them, but they tend to denote starker divisions 557 00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:04,200 Speaker 2: in biodiversity than you will find elsewhere in nature. And 558 00:31:04,220 --> 00:31:08,340 Speaker 2: so what's the story of the Wallace Line in particular? Well, 559 00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:12,830 Speaker 2: the Wallace Line passes invisibly through the islands of the 560 00:31:12,850 --> 00:31:17,740 Speaker 2: Malay archipelago in the strait between Borneo and Sulawesi, And 561 00:31:17,780 --> 00:31:21,620 Speaker 2: then further southwest through the Lesser Sunda Islands, cutting between 562 00:31:21,660 --> 00:31:24,900 Speaker 2: the islands of Bali on the west and Lombok on 563 00:31:24,940 --> 00:31:25,520 Speaker 2: the east. 564 00:31:26,420 --> 00:31:28,640 Speaker 1: While we were in Indonesia, we were east of the 565 00:31:28,660 --> 00:31:31,260 Speaker 1: Wallace Line, though we had to fly over it to 566 00:31:31,300 --> 00:31:35,180 Speaker 1: get to Raja Ambat from Jakarta. I will stress, though, 567 00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:37,610 Speaker 1: the pilot did not announce the crossing of the Wallace Line. 568 00:31:38,510 --> 00:31:40,430 Speaker 1: Not that they had to, but I just want to 569 00:31:40,470 --> 00:31:42,650 Speaker 1: make it neat. Of course, you can't see it from 570 00:31:42,670 --> 00:31:43,070 Speaker 1: the plane. 571 00:31:43,730 --> 00:31:46,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. And there's nothing there to see. In fact, 572 00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:52,080 Speaker 2: it's kind of, it's remarkable how invisible it is in 573 00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:55,640 Speaker 2: a way. So I was speaking of the division between 574 00:31:55,680 --> 00:32:00,460 Speaker 2: these multiple land masses, Borneo and Sulawesi and Lombok and Bali. 575 00:32:01,060 --> 00:32:04,750 Speaker 2: The latter division is probably the most striking because the 576 00:32:04,790 --> 00:32:08,750 Speaker 2: Lombok Strait, which passes between Lombok and Bali, is in 577 00:32:08,790 --> 00:32:11,970 Speaker 2: some places only a few dozen kilometers wide. Like if 578 00:32:12,020 --> 00:32:14,160 Speaker 2: the air is clear, you can stand on the shore 579 00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:17,320 Speaker 2: of one island and look across and see the other island. 580 00:32:17,340 --> 00:32:19,760 Speaker 2: You see the higher elevations on the other island. So 581 00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:24,160 Speaker 2: they're very close. And in terms of environmental conditions, they're 582 00:32:24,180 --> 00:32:28,650 Speaker 2: very similar. And yet, when Alfred Russell Wallace studied the 583 00:32:29,450 --> 00:32:32,969 Speaker 2: land animals and the birds of these islands, he noticed 584 00:32:33,010 --> 00:32:36,560 Speaker 2: a pretty stark difference. Wallace writes about some of these 585 00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:40,540 Speaker 2: observations in the book, The Malay Archipelago, again, first published 586 00:32:41,080 --> 00:32:44,320 Speaker 2: in 1869. So the version of this book I was 587 00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:47,340 Speaker 2: looking at is a scan of the 1890 edition. That's 588 00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:50,260 Speaker 2: the one with the sick illustration of the orangutan biting 589 00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:55,140 Speaker 2: the guy. And Wallace writes that the islands of Bali 590 00:32:55,180 --> 00:32:58,500 Speaker 2: and Lombok are most interesting actually because of two things. 591 00:32:59,120 --> 00:33:01,590 Speaker 2: One of them is that he claims that They're the 592 00:33:01,710 --> 00:33:04,370 Speaker 2: only two islands of the whole archipelago in which the 593 00:33:04,410 --> 00:33:09,390 Speaker 2: Hindu religion still maintains itself. And then he also says, quote, 594 00:33:09,770 --> 00:33:13,390 Speaker 2: they form the extreme points of the two great zoological 595 00:33:13,470 --> 00:33:17,810 Speaker 2: divisions of the eastern hemisphere. For although so similar in 596 00:33:17,910 --> 00:33:21,840 Speaker 2: external appearance and in all physical features, they differ greatly 597 00:33:22,100 --> 00:33:25,700 Speaker 2: in their natural productions. So what's the difference in these 598 00:33:25,760 --> 00:33:29,690 Speaker 2: natural productions between the two islands? Again, while there are 599 00:33:29,710 --> 00:33:33,200 Speaker 2: exceptions and some nuances we'll discuss later, the range of 600 00:33:33,580 --> 00:33:37,660 Speaker 2: a ton of major animal groups essentially terminates at this 601 00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:41,760 Speaker 2: tiny ocean gap. On the eastern side, in Lombok, you 602 00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:46,880 Speaker 2: will find native cockatoos and marsupials, the animals associated with 603 00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:50,300 Speaker 2: Australia and New Guinea. And on the western side of 604 00:33:50,340 --> 00:33:53,620 Speaker 2: the gap, in Bali and Borneo, you will not find 605 00:33:53,640 --> 00:33:58,360 Speaker 2: those animals, not natively, unless you find some imported Instead, 606 00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:01,459 Speaker 2: you will find mostly the same animal groups that you 607 00:34:01,520 --> 00:34:05,440 Speaker 2: find in the rest of Asia, including, at least as 608 00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:07,700 Speaker 2: of a few hundred years ago, before many of these 609 00:34:07,770 --> 00:34:13,450 Speaker 2: animals were driven extinct, you would find tigers, rhinos, elephants, 610 00:34:13,550 --> 00:34:16,410 Speaker 2: and bears. So you've got one on one side, one 611 00:34:16,450 --> 00:34:18,390 Speaker 2: on the other, and then you've got, of course, some 612 00:34:18,870 --> 00:34:22,250 Speaker 2: more transitional areas like We'll talk more in part two, 613 00:34:22,310 --> 00:34:24,910 Speaker 2: I think, about the idea of a whole group of 614 00:34:25,050 --> 00:34:28,250 Speaker 2: islands known as Wallacea that are thought of now as 615 00:34:28,290 --> 00:34:32,110 Speaker 2: a kind of transitional island group. But on the island 616 00:34:32,130 --> 00:34:34,630 Speaker 2: of Sulawesi, you will also find more of a mix 617 00:34:34,690 --> 00:34:40,029 Speaker 2: with some native Australian or Australasian fauna and some Asian fauna. Now, 618 00:34:40,070 --> 00:34:42,950 Speaker 2: the question of why is really interesting, and that's something 619 00:34:42,969 --> 00:34:44,690 Speaker 2: we're going to have to come back to. But first, 620 00:34:44,770 --> 00:34:47,819 Speaker 2: I just wanted to get some more color on Wallace 621 00:34:47,860 --> 00:34:51,940 Speaker 2: himself and his travels in in these islands, specifically his 622 00:34:52,020 --> 00:34:57,170 Speaker 2: chapter in the Malay Archipelago on his visits to Bali 623 00:34:57,250 --> 00:35:01,029 Speaker 2: and Lombok. He makes an interesting biographical note that his 624 00:35:01,130 --> 00:35:05,690 Speaker 2: first visit to these islands in 1856 was, quote, somewhat involuntary. 625 00:35:05,710 --> 00:35:10,720 Speaker 2: He was trying to get a ship to take him 626 00:35:10,739 --> 00:35:15,000 Speaker 2: to Makassar on Sulawesi from Singapore, but he couldn't for 627 00:35:15,060 --> 00:35:17,860 Speaker 2: some reason, and his journey got diverted to these islands 628 00:35:18,260 --> 00:35:21,109 Speaker 2: at the east end of Java. And he writes that 629 00:35:21,250 --> 00:35:23,190 Speaker 2: if he had been able to get the passage he 630 00:35:23,290 --> 00:35:26,880 Speaker 2: wanted from Singapore, he probably never would have gone to them, quote, 631 00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:29,700 Speaker 2: and should have missed some of the most important discoveries 632 00:35:29,900 --> 00:35:32,040 Speaker 2: of my whole expedition to the East. 633 00:35:32,660 --> 00:35:36,719 Speaker 1: So just pure travel mishaps playing into, again, the most 634 00:35:36,760 --> 00:35:38,080 Speaker 1: important discoveries of his career. 635 00:35:38,520 --> 00:35:40,620 Speaker 2: So, Robert, are you cool if I read some passages 636 00:35:40,660 --> 00:35:41,399 Speaker 2: from Wallace here? 637 00:35:41,420 --> 00:35:42,630 Speaker 1: Yeah, let's have it. 638 00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:44,840 Speaker 2: Okay, this will give us a flavor of his writing 639 00:35:45,140 --> 00:35:48,419 Speaker 2: and some of his experiences in Bali and Lombok, both 640 00:35:48,620 --> 00:35:52,210 Speaker 2: those that inform... the formulation of the idea of the 641 00:35:52,250 --> 00:35:55,490 Speaker 2: Wallace line, and also just some interesting stuff he comes across. 642 00:35:55,969 --> 00:35:59,560 Speaker 2: So first of all, there's a passage where he's describing 643 00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:04,299 Speaker 2: the terraced agriculture of Bali, where he says, he says, quote, 644 00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:08,400 Speaker 2: a slightly undulating plain extends from the seacoast about 10 645 00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:11,380 Speaker 2: or 12 miles inland, where it is bounded by a 646 00:36:11,489 --> 00:36:15,550 Speaker 2: fine range of wooded and cultivated hills, houses and villages 647 00:36:15,670 --> 00:36:19,390 Speaker 2: marked out by dense clumps of coconut palms and tamarind 648 00:36:19,430 --> 00:36:22,570 Speaker 2: and other fruit trees, are dotted about in every direction, 649 00:36:22,950 --> 00:36:26,549 Speaker 2: while between them extend luxuriant rice grounds, watered by an 650 00:36:26,590 --> 00:36:29,380 Speaker 2: elaborate system of irrigation that would be the pride of 651 00:36:29,430 --> 00:36:32,640 Speaker 2: the best cultivated parts of Europe. The whole surface of 652 00:36:32,680 --> 00:36:37,080 Speaker 2: the country is divided into irregular patches, following the undulations 653 00:36:37,140 --> 00:36:40,220 Speaker 2: of the ground, from many acres to a few perches 654 00:36:40,300 --> 00:36:44,319 Speaker 2: in extent, each of which is itself perfectly level, but 655 00:36:44,390 --> 00:36:47,210 Speaker 2: stands a few inches or several feet above or below 656 00:36:47,290 --> 00:36:50,299 Speaker 2: those adjacent to it. Every one of those patches can 657 00:36:50,320 --> 00:36:52,739 Speaker 2: be flooded or drained at will by means of a 658 00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:55,810 Speaker 2: system of ditches and small channels into which are diverted 659 00:36:55,850 --> 00:36:59,310 Speaker 2: the whole of streams that descend from the mountains. Every 660 00:36:59,370 --> 00:37:02,710 Speaker 2: patch now bore crops in various stages of growth, some 661 00:37:02,770 --> 00:37:05,580 Speaker 2: almost ready for cutting, and all in the most flourishing 662 00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:10,540 Speaker 2: condition and of the most exquisite green tints. Oh, that's nice. 663 00:37:10,560 --> 00:37:12,399 Speaker 1: I would say succulent, even. 664 00:37:12,750 --> 00:37:17,570 Speaker 2: Yeah, I found his writing style very vivid. It really 665 00:37:17,630 --> 00:37:19,890 Speaker 2: calls pictures to the mind in a way that a 666 00:37:19,910 --> 00:37:23,989 Speaker 2: lot of older writing, especially, you don't quite get that 667 00:37:25,090 --> 00:37:28,730 Speaker 2: immediate connection to the visual imagination. Something about Wallace's style 668 00:37:28,770 --> 00:37:29,390 Speaker 2: does for me. 669 00:37:29,430 --> 00:37:31,359 Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a sense of awe here as well. 670 00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:34,360 Speaker 2: Yeah. But anyway, from here, Wallace goes on to describe 671 00:37:34,420 --> 00:37:38,299 Speaker 2: his attempts to collect a few specimens in Bali. So 672 00:37:38,360 --> 00:37:41,890 Speaker 2: he says... In so well-cultivated a country, it was not 673 00:37:41,950 --> 00:37:45,090 Speaker 2: to be expected that I could do much in natural history. 674 00:37:46,230 --> 00:37:49,430 Speaker 2: Kind of makes sense, right? Like it's harder to collect 675 00:37:49,469 --> 00:37:54,250 Speaker 2: specimens from all of this well-kept farmland. Yeah, from the farmland, yeah. 676 00:37:54,550 --> 00:37:58,190 Speaker 2: And my ignorance of how important a locality this was 677 00:37:58,350 --> 00:38:02,650 Speaker 2: for the elucidation of geographical distribution of animals caused me 678 00:38:02,730 --> 00:38:06,910 Speaker 2: to neglect obtaining some specimens, which I never met with again. 679 00:38:07,950 --> 00:38:10,210 Speaker 2: One of these was a weaver bird with a bright 680 00:38:10,270 --> 00:38:14,340 Speaker 2: yellow head, which built its bottle-shaped nests by dozens on 681 00:38:14,380 --> 00:38:18,620 Speaker 2: some trees near the beach. It was the Plosius hypoxanthus, 682 00:38:18,860 --> 00:38:22,400 Speaker 2: a native of Java, and here at the extreme limits 683 00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:26,100 Speaker 2: of its range westerly. I shot and preserved specimens of 684 00:38:26,200 --> 00:38:30,420 Speaker 2: a wagtail thrush, an oriole, and some starlings, all species 685 00:38:30,480 --> 00:38:33,980 Speaker 2: found in Java, and some of them peculiar to that island. 686 00:38:34,600 --> 00:38:37,940 Speaker 2: I also obtained some beautiful butterflies, richly marked with black 687 00:38:37,980 --> 00:38:40,799 Speaker 2: and orange on a white ground, and which were the 688 00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:44,710 Speaker 2: most abundant insects in the country lanes. Among these was 689 00:38:44,770 --> 00:38:49,070 Speaker 2: a new species, which I have named Pieris tamar. Okay, 690 00:38:49,110 --> 00:38:52,750 Speaker 2: so that's his experience in Bali. He doesn't collect a 691 00:38:52,810 --> 00:38:55,930 Speaker 2: lot of specimens because he doesn't know how significant this 692 00:38:55,969 --> 00:38:57,270 Speaker 2: place is going to be. And he got here by 693 00:38:57,489 --> 00:39:00,910 Speaker 2: accident anyway, didn't even expect to go here, notices a 694 00:39:00,930 --> 00:39:04,129 Speaker 2: few things. But it's all the Western fauna. It's all 695 00:39:04,190 --> 00:39:06,360 Speaker 2: the same kind of stuff you would see in Java, 696 00:39:06,719 --> 00:39:09,399 Speaker 2: the same kind of stuff you would see grouped with 697 00:39:09,460 --> 00:39:12,859 Speaker 2: other animal species generally in Asia. But then he moves 698 00:39:13,040 --> 00:39:16,380 Speaker 2: on in his ship to Lombok. And he notes, by 699 00:39:16,400 --> 00:39:20,430 Speaker 2: the way, that traversing the strait, sometimes the weather or 700 00:39:20,469 --> 00:39:23,629 Speaker 2: the chop in the strait can be pretty rough. And 701 00:39:24,290 --> 00:39:27,690 Speaker 2: there's a story of him pulling all of his things 702 00:39:27,750 --> 00:39:31,810 Speaker 2: ashore and being very grateful to get all of his 703 00:39:31,850 --> 00:39:34,890 Speaker 2: specimens and bags and stuff on shore. And the locals 704 00:39:34,950 --> 00:39:37,030 Speaker 2: tell him, oh, it's good that you did. The sea 705 00:39:37,090 --> 00:39:39,200 Speaker 2: is hungry and it takes everything it can eat. 706 00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:41,740 Speaker 1: Oh, the South Sea Queen, perhaps. 707 00:39:42,520 --> 00:39:45,259 Speaker 2: Yes, though I was thinking of his loss of all 708 00:39:45,280 --> 00:39:49,359 Speaker 2: of his previous stuff from the other boat. But yeah, 709 00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:51,980 Speaker 2: so he moves on to Lombok and here he notes 710 00:39:52,300 --> 00:39:56,600 Speaker 2: finding bird species that are not like the bird species 711 00:39:57,020 --> 00:39:59,160 Speaker 2: on the other island. They are more similar to those 712 00:39:59,219 --> 00:40:03,259 Speaker 2: found in Australia and New Guinea. He writes, quote, The 713 00:40:03,300 --> 00:40:06,290 Speaker 2: country around was pretty and novel to me, consisting of 714 00:40:06,370 --> 00:40:10,830 Speaker 2: abrupt volcanic hills enclosing flat valleys or open plains. The 715 00:40:10,870 --> 00:40:14,089 Speaker 2: hills were covered with a dense scrubby bush of bamboos 716 00:40:14,170 --> 00:40:17,370 Speaker 2: and prickly trees and shrubs. The plains were adorned with 717 00:40:17,450 --> 00:40:20,650 Speaker 2: hundreds of noble palm trees, and in many places with 718 00:40:20,710 --> 00:40:25,180 Speaker 2: a luxuriant shrubby vegetation. Birds were plentiful and very interesting, 719 00:40:25,520 --> 00:40:28,340 Speaker 2: and I now saw for the first time many Australian 720 00:40:28,440 --> 00:40:32,260 Speaker 2: forms that are quite absent from the islands westward. Small 721 00:40:32,360 --> 00:40:37,779 Speaker 2: white cockatoos were abundant, and their loud screams, conspicuous white color, 722 00:40:38,120 --> 00:40:41,690 Speaker 2: and pretty yellow crests rendered them a very important feature 723 00:40:41,730 --> 00:40:44,830 Speaker 2: in the landscape. This is the most westerly point on 724 00:40:44,870 --> 00:40:47,330 Speaker 2: the globe where any of the family are to be found. 725 00:40:47,930 --> 00:40:52,150 Speaker 2: Some small honeysuckers of the genus Telotus and the strange 726 00:40:52,350 --> 00:40:57,440 Speaker 2: mound maker Megapodius guldii are also here, first met on 727 00:40:57,480 --> 00:41:02,219 Speaker 2: the traveler's journey eastward. The Megapodius birds, by the way, 728 00:41:02,260 --> 00:41:04,399 Speaker 2: these are these, you may have read about these before, 729 00:41:04,440 --> 00:41:08,630 Speaker 2: these mound builder birds that are native to Australia and 730 00:41:08,690 --> 00:41:13,440 Speaker 2: New Guinea. where they will build mounds. He describes, actually, 731 00:41:13,480 --> 00:41:16,319 Speaker 2: in a passage, the locals telling him about how they 732 00:41:16,340 --> 00:41:19,720 Speaker 2: build mounds out of anything they can get, garbage or whatever, 733 00:41:19,820 --> 00:41:22,540 Speaker 2: and the locals know what to look for in one 734 00:41:22,580 --> 00:41:24,979 Speaker 2: of these mounds to know when there will be eggs 735 00:41:25,060 --> 00:41:28,560 Speaker 2: in it that are good for snatching. In fact, I'll 736 00:41:28,580 --> 00:41:31,100 Speaker 2: just read a passage from Wallace. He says, The mounds 737 00:41:31,140 --> 00:41:33,180 Speaker 2: are to be met with here and there in dense 738 00:41:33,300 --> 00:41:37,190 Speaker 2: thickets and are great puzzles to strangers who cannot understand 739 00:41:37,250 --> 00:41:40,730 Speaker 2: who can possibly have heaped together cartloads of rubbish in 740 00:41:40,790 --> 00:41:44,430 Speaker 2: such out-of-the-way places. And when they inquire of the natives, 741 00:41:44,530 --> 00:41:47,810 Speaker 2: they are but little wiser, for it almost always appears 742 00:41:47,870 --> 00:41:50,690 Speaker 2: to them the wildest romance to be told that it 743 00:41:50,770 --> 00:41:54,870 Speaker 2: is done all by birds. Excuse me, that it is 744 00:41:54,989 --> 00:41:57,170 Speaker 2: all done by birds, but that does sound like the 745 00:41:57,210 --> 00:41:58,140 Speaker 2: wildest romance. 746 00:41:58,160 --> 00:41:58,799 Speaker 1: Yeah. 747 00:41:59,690 --> 00:42:01,169 Speaker 2: Now, here I want to come to the part where 748 00:42:01,310 --> 00:42:05,150 Speaker 2: Wallace describes the difficulties of the physical part of his work, 749 00:42:05,330 --> 00:42:09,050 Speaker 2: collecting and preserving specimens. I've alluded to this several times, 750 00:42:09,130 --> 00:42:13,890 Speaker 2: but this passage really gripped me. So Wallace says, quote, 751 00:42:29,530 --> 00:42:33,660 Speaker 2: Ants swarmed in nearly every part of it, and dogs, cats, 752 00:42:33,800 --> 00:42:38,739 Speaker 2: and fowls entered it at pleasure. Besides this, it was 753 00:42:38,800 --> 00:42:41,520 Speaker 2: the parlor and reception room of my host, and I 754 00:42:41,560 --> 00:42:44,540 Speaker 2: was obliged to consult his convenience, and that of the 755 00:42:44,580 --> 00:42:48,240 Speaker 2: numerous guests who visited us. My principal piece of furniture 756 00:42:48,360 --> 00:42:51,280 Speaker 2: was a box, which served me as a dining table, 757 00:42:51,680 --> 00:42:55,279 Speaker 2: a seat when skinning birds, and as the receptacle of 758 00:42:55,320 --> 00:42:58,669 Speaker 2: the birds when skinned and dried. To keep them free 759 00:42:58,730 --> 00:43:02,130 Speaker 2: from ants, we borrowed with some difficulty an old bench, 760 00:43:02,290 --> 00:43:05,370 Speaker 2: the four legs of which, being placed in coconut shells 761 00:43:05,469 --> 00:43:09,830 Speaker 2: filled with water, kept us tolerably free from these pests. 762 00:43:10,390 --> 00:43:13,290 Speaker 2: The box and the bench were, however, literally the only 763 00:43:13,370 --> 00:43:16,170 Speaker 2: places where anything could be put away, and they were 764 00:43:16,210 --> 00:43:20,220 Speaker 2: generally well-occupied by two insect boxes and about a hundred 765 00:43:20,280 --> 00:43:23,609 Speaker 2: bird skins in the process of drying. It may therefore 766 00:43:23,640 --> 00:43:26,810 Speaker 2: be easily conceived that when anything bulky or out of 767 00:43:26,850 --> 00:43:30,049 Speaker 2: the common way was collected, the question, where is it 768 00:43:30,110 --> 00:43:32,930 Speaker 2: to be put, was rather a difficult one to answer. 769 00:43:33,370 --> 00:43:37,470 Speaker 2: All animal substances, moreover, require some time to dry thoroughly, 770 00:43:37,890 --> 00:43:41,230 Speaker 2: emit a very disagreeable odor while doing so, and are 771 00:43:41,290 --> 00:43:47,230 Speaker 2: particularly attractive to ants, flies, dogs, rats, cats, and other vermin, 772 00:43:47,710 --> 00:43:52,330 Speaker 2: calling for especial cautions and constant supervision, which under the 773 00:43:52,390 --> 00:43:57,169 Speaker 2: circumstances above described were impossible. Oh, man, I was getting 774 00:43:57,290 --> 00:44:00,370 Speaker 2: so stressed just reading that, trying to think where to 775 00:44:00,430 --> 00:44:03,550 Speaker 2: put the bird skin, where to put the dead whatever 776 00:44:03,610 --> 00:44:06,250 Speaker 2: I just found. Where can it go that it's not 777 00:44:06,290 --> 00:44:08,050 Speaker 2: just going to be swarmed with ants? And the whole 778 00:44:08,110 --> 00:44:11,399 Speaker 2: time you've got ants everywhere, and it's all stinking because 779 00:44:11,420 --> 00:44:13,480 Speaker 2: you're skinning it and then hiding it in a box 780 00:44:13,540 --> 00:44:15,279 Speaker 2: that's the only other thing in the room with you. 781 00:44:15,300 --> 00:44:19,740 Speaker 1: And all manner of scavengers are... coming in to peek 782 00:44:19,840 --> 00:44:23,180 Speaker 1: in and see what's going on with your dead animals. Yeah, 783 00:44:23,300 --> 00:44:28,629 Speaker 1: it seems like quite an experience. And also, Wallace, quite 784 00:44:28,650 --> 00:44:32,270 Speaker 1: a house guest to have staying as well, right? 785 00:44:33,430 --> 00:44:36,700 Speaker 2: I mean, one thing he notes, at least the parts 786 00:44:36,780 --> 00:44:39,239 Speaker 2: I was reading, is he makes a special note of 787 00:44:39,480 --> 00:44:42,540 Speaker 2: the hospitality he encounters everywhere he goes. It seems like 788 00:44:42,950 --> 00:44:46,520 Speaker 2: He just keeps running into very nice, very helpful, accommodating people. 789 00:44:46,640 --> 00:44:48,839 Speaker 2: And he's like, I was received very, you know, with 790 00:44:48,920 --> 00:44:53,400 Speaker 2: all this graciousness and all that. So I just get 791 00:44:53,420 --> 00:44:56,259 Speaker 2: the feeling from reading that he's a nice guest to have. 792 00:44:56,300 --> 00:45:00,310 Speaker 2: He's very appreciative, you know, very polite, I think. Probably, 793 00:45:00,350 --> 00:45:00,649 Speaker 2: at least. 794 00:45:00,670 --> 00:45:03,470 Speaker 1: Yeah, skins a lot of birds, collects a lot of beetles, 795 00:45:03,630 --> 00:45:04,750 Speaker 1: but a nice guy. 796 00:45:05,090 --> 00:45:08,790 Speaker 2: Does stink up your house really bad. And there are 797 00:45:08,870 --> 00:45:12,380 Speaker 2: already ants, but he probably attracts way, way more. Yes, 798 00:45:13,560 --> 00:45:16,779 Speaker 2: this is actually something I almost always find interesting in 799 00:45:16,860 --> 00:45:21,270 Speaker 2: reading books about science history is just the practical physical 800 00:45:21,410 --> 00:45:25,590 Speaker 2: annoyances and problems with trying to do the core work, 801 00:45:25,670 --> 00:45:29,230 Speaker 2: the core physical work of your discipline, whether that's collecting 802 00:45:29,290 --> 00:45:33,750 Speaker 2: specimens and preparing them to be preserved. or doing experiments 803 00:45:33,810 --> 00:45:36,629 Speaker 2: or whatever, you know, there are always little like problems 804 00:45:36,730 --> 00:45:38,850 Speaker 2: like this where it's like, I can't do it because 805 00:45:38,890 --> 00:45:41,110 Speaker 2: this thing doesn't fit right. Or I don't have the 806 00:45:41,150 --> 00:45:43,350 Speaker 2: kind of table I need or, you know, or there's 807 00:45:43,370 --> 00:45:46,890 Speaker 2: ants on everything. By the way, if you if you 808 00:45:46,910 --> 00:45:49,029 Speaker 2: work in any area of research out there and you 809 00:45:49,070 --> 00:45:52,279 Speaker 2: want to write into the show about your experiences of 810 00:45:52,320 --> 00:45:54,920 Speaker 2: this kind, please do contact at stuff to blow your 811 00:45:54,940 --> 00:45:57,520 Speaker 2: mind dot com. I always find these things interesting. Yeah. 812 00:45:57,600 --> 00:45:58,680 Speaker 1: Tell us about your fieldwork. 813 00:45:59,050 --> 00:46:01,570 Speaker 2: What is your Wallace's Room full of ants? 814 00:46:12,160 --> 00:46:12,360 Speaker 1: All right. 815 00:46:12,400 --> 00:46:14,500 Speaker 2: Can I flag one more thing from this chapter by 816 00:46:14,540 --> 00:46:18,460 Speaker 2: Wallace about a boundary of sorts, but not a faunal one? 817 00:46:19,040 --> 00:46:20,860 Speaker 1: Yeah, I know what you're going to cover here. And 818 00:46:21,260 --> 00:46:23,290 Speaker 1: this is an interesting one that I was reading about 819 00:46:23,310 --> 00:46:24,669 Speaker 1: in my book as well. 820 00:46:25,030 --> 00:46:27,430 Speaker 2: Yeah, okay. So Wallace, by the way, he's about to 821 00:46:27,489 --> 00:46:30,560 Speaker 2: refer to somebody named Manuel. Manuel is one of his 822 00:46:30,620 --> 00:46:33,500 Speaker 2: local guides. So this is a guy he's been working 823 00:46:33,540 --> 00:46:36,500 Speaker 2: with and has good relations with. But he says, a 824 00:46:36,800 --> 00:46:39,920 Speaker 2: Bornean Malay who had been for many years resident here 825 00:46:40,040 --> 00:46:43,140 Speaker 2: said to Manuel, one thing is strange in this country, 826 00:46:43,160 --> 00:46:51,510 Speaker 2: the scarcity of ghosts. How so? Asked Manuel. Why, you know, 827 00:46:51,690 --> 00:46:54,930 Speaker 2: said the Malay. That in our countries, to the westward, 828 00:46:55,090 --> 00:46:57,930 Speaker 2: if a man dies or is killed, we dare not 829 00:46:58,030 --> 00:47:00,790 Speaker 2: pass near the place at night, for all sorts of 830 00:47:00,910 --> 00:47:04,290 Speaker 2: noises are heard, which show that ghosts are about. But 831 00:47:04,370 --> 00:47:07,410 Speaker 2: here there are numbers of men killed, and their bodies 832 00:47:07,469 --> 00:47:10,470 Speaker 2: lie unburied in the fields and by the roadside, and 833 00:47:10,510 --> 00:47:12,900 Speaker 2: yet you can walk by them at night and never 834 00:47:13,000 --> 00:47:15,839 Speaker 2: hear or see anything at all, which is not the 835 00:47:15,860 --> 00:47:19,140 Speaker 2: case in our country, as you know very well. Certainly 836 00:47:19,239 --> 00:47:22,029 Speaker 2: I do, said Manuel. And so it was settled that 837 00:47:22,130 --> 00:47:26,009 Speaker 2: ghosts were very scarce, if not altogether unknown, in Lombok. 838 00:47:26,890 --> 00:47:29,160 Speaker 2: And then Wallace goes on to make a comment that 839 00:47:29,300 --> 00:47:33,540 Speaker 2: I didn't know how to take at first, but I 840 00:47:33,800 --> 00:47:36,620 Speaker 2: initially read this as maybe some kind of dry humor. 841 00:47:37,040 --> 00:47:40,279 Speaker 2: But he follows this up by saying, I would observe, however, 842 00:47:40,450 --> 00:47:42,969 Speaker 2: that as the evidence is purely negative, we should be 843 00:47:43,030 --> 00:47:46,670 Speaker 2: wanting in scientific caution if we accepted this fact as 844 00:47:46,730 --> 00:47:51,700 Speaker 2: sufficiently well-established. that sounded like a kind of humorous understatement 845 00:47:51,739 --> 00:47:54,279 Speaker 2: to me, but now Rob, now that we've talked about 846 00:47:54,320 --> 00:47:59,620 Speaker 2: his interest in spiritualism, that assessment actually seems like he 847 00:47:59,840 --> 00:48:03,739 Speaker 2: is interested in me. He is maybe actually interested in 848 00:48:03,780 --> 00:48:07,319 Speaker 2: doing a scientific catalog of where ghosts exist because he 849 00:48:07,400 --> 00:48:11,280 Speaker 2: views them as quite likely a real phenomenon and something 850 00:48:11,300 --> 00:48:15,779 Speaker 2: that can be scientifically documented. And he is being, you know, 851 00:48:15,860 --> 00:48:19,009 Speaker 2: somewhat skeptical in his methodology here. He's like, well, we 852 00:48:19,050 --> 00:48:22,010 Speaker 2: only have the negative evidence here, so we can't fully 853 00:48:22,050 --> 00:48:25,990 Speaker 2: say that this is a rule. But here's somebody saying 854 00:48:26,010 --> 00:48:28,489 Speaker 2: you don't get ghosts in Lombok, you do get them 855 00:48:28,530 --> 00:48:28,930 Speaker 2: over here. 856 00:48:28,950 --> 00:48:32,170 Speaker 1: Yeah, this is a great point, because I think definitely 857 00:48:32,230 --> 00:48:33,590 Speaker 1: at this point in his life, he was at the 858 00:48:33,650 --> 00:48:38,160 Speaker 1: very least quite open to the idea that ghosts were real, 859 00:48:38,180 --> 00:48:42,090 Speaker 1: that there was some sort of spiritual essence out there. Yeah. 860 00:48:42,190 --> 00:48:45,129 Speaker 2: And the really interesting aspect of that belief, at least 861 00:48:45,170 --> 00:48:48,730 Speaker 2: to me, being the assumption that you could study this 862 00:48:48,790 --> 00:48:50,930 Speaker 2: phenomenon in a scientific way. I mean, I think a 863 00:48:51,050 --> 00:48:55,480 Speaker 2: lot of times you would have people who might be 864 00:48:55,620 --> 00:48:59,700 Speaker 2: scientists or naturalists or natural philosophers in this era who 865 00:49:00,060 --> 00:49:05,300 Speaker 2: have supernatural beliefs, but they don't approach the supernatural beliefs 866 00:49:05,520 --> 00:49:09,529 Speaker 2: as open to investigation the same way their beliefs about the, 867 00:49:09,670 --> 00:49:12,859 Speaker 2: you know, the forces governing the natural world are. And 868 00:49:13,060 --> 00:49:16,080 Speaker 2: Wallace seems to be saying like, no, yeah, we could 869 00:49:16,100 --> 00:49:17,410 Speaker 2: just we could study this. 870 00:49:17,890 --> 00:49:20,150 Speaker 1: Yeah. And I think we definitely have to look. at 871 00:49:20,190 --> 00:49:22,489 Speaker 1: it within the context of the time to a time 872 00:49:22,530 --> 00:49:25,760 Speaker 1: during which there are so many advancements are taking place. 873 00:49:26,160 --> 00:49:29,819 Speaker 1: And Wallace, along with Darwin and others, are like right 874 00:49:29,840 --> 00:49:34,120 Speaker 1: there on the front lines pushing this this theory of 875 00:49:34,239 --> 00:49:36,580 Speaker 1: what is going to become known as as the theory 876 00:49:36,620 --> 00:49:40,020 Speaker 1: of evolution, the theory of natural selection. And and therefore, 877 00:49:40,080 --> 00:49:43,400 Speaker 1: like there's probably this this spirit of we can figure 878 00:49:43,460 --> 00:49:45,920 Speaker 1: it all out. And we see this elsewhere as well, 879 00:49:45,940 --> 00:49:48,540 Speaker 1: where people like, yes, we can we can actually measure 880 00:49:48,580 --> 00:49:50,500 Speaker 1: these things. We can look and try and figure out 881 00:49:50,520 --> 00:49:54,780 Speaker 1: what happens to consciousness when life ends. And in Wallace's 882 00:49:54,840 --> 00:49:59,020 Speaker 1: case in particular, we we know that he comes to 883 00:49:59,200 --> 00:50:02,469 Speaker 1: see some sort of continuation of the soul here. as 884 00:50:02,550 --> 00:50:07,299 Speaker 1: being some special vibe, some sort of higher intelligence as 885 00:50:07,340 --> 00:50:11,160 Speaker 1: being key to how evolution is working. And therefore, you know, 886 00:50:11,239 --> 00:50:13,220 Speaker 1: he just sees it as part of the works. And therefore, 887 00:50:13,239 --> 00:50:16,000 Speaker 1: it's something that you surely can prove out because we're 888 00:50:16,320 --> 00:50:19,399 Speaker 1: proving out the other aspects of how the natural world 889 00:50:19,460 --> 00:50:22,870 Speaker 1: is working. And if ghosts are part of it, if 890 00:50:22,910 --> 00:50:25,110 Speaker 1: the spirit is part of it, then he should be 891 00:50:25,130 --> 00:50:26,950 Speaker 1: able to prove that as well. Yeah. 892 00:50:27,270 --> 00:50:29,390 Speaker 2: I mean, in a way, you could look at an 893 00:50:29,510 --> 00:50:34,410 Speaker 2: interest in spiritualism as As a way of, you know, 894 00:50:34,430 --> 00:50:37,650 Speaker 2: I think that none of the underlying phenomena were actually real, 895 00:50:37,710 --> 00:50:42,690 Speaker 2: but as an attempt to empirically interact with the spirit world. 896 00:50:43,450 --> 00:50:43,689 Speaker 1: Yeah. 897 00:50:43,989 --> 00:50:46,810 Speaker 2: As opposed to just like having beliefs about it, but 898 00:50:46,850 --> 00:50:50,549 Speaker 2: those beliefs being something that, you know, you don't interface 899 00:50:50,610 --> 00:50:51,830 Speaker 2: with or interact with. 900 00:50:52,370 --> 00:50:55,700 Speaker 1: Right, right. Now, at the same time, of course, obviously, 901 00:50:55,760 --> 00:50:59,000 Speaker 1: like entering in any kind of scientific enterprise with these 902 00:50:59,060 --> 00:51:01,520 Speaker 1: concepts in mind, you can end up putting blinders up 903 00:51:01,540 --> 00:51:05,480 Speaker 1: for yourself. And you can end up maybe engaging in 904 00:51:05,520 --> 00:51:09,480 Speaker 1: some of these questions without complete neutrality. Right. 905 00:51:09,540 --> 00:51:11,060 Speaker 2: And I mean, of course, I think that is what 906 00:51:11,100 --> 00:51:13,680 Speaker 2: we actually see in a lot of attempts to get 907 00:51:13,719 --> 00:51:16,759 Speaker 2: really into the subject. But I would say that in principle, 908 00:51:16,920 --> 00:51:20,299 Speaker 2: if there were spirits that made contact with the living 909 00:51:20,410 --> 00:51:23,490 Speaker 2: on a regular basis, that's something that you could study. 910 00:51:24,150 --> 00:51:26,730 Speaker 2: You know, it might be difficult to study because might 911 00:51:26,750 --> 00:51:29,350 Speaker 2: be more like the study of psychology or something than 912 00:51:29,390 --> 00:51:32,450 Speaker 2: like the study of uh of biology or nature yeah 913 00:51:32,510 --> 00:51:34,710 Speaker 2: but uh but it could be something you could you 914 00:51:34,750 --> 00:51:36,490 Speaker 2: could look into in a systematic. 915 00:51:36,050 --> 00:51:39,319 Speaker 1: Way right right and even the division of ghosts as 916 00:51:39,360 --> 00:51:42,100 Speaker 1: well i mean especially in a place like indonesia you 917 00:51:42,120 --> 00:51:45,400 Speaker 1: know it it ultimately speaks to other questions about the 918 00:51:45,440 --> 00:51:48,509 Speaker 1: flow of ideas and the flow of religious faiths uh 919 00:51:48,530 --> 00:51:51,170 Speaker 1: you know in a widespread and again as we've stressed 920 00:51:51,230 --> 00:51:56,150 Speaker 1: very large spread out country that has various cultures wound 921 00:51:56,210 --> 00:51:59,850 Speaker 1: up in it, various religious faiths. So that ultimately becomes 922 00:51:59,890 --> 00:52:03,750 Speaker 1: the more interesting question, I think, outside of Wallace's viewpoint is, well, 923 00:52:03,790 --> 00:52:06,310 Speaker 1: why would there be a tradition of ghosts here and 924 00:52:06,390 --> 00:52:08,330 Speaker 1: not here? What does that say about the people? 925 00:52:08,630 --> 00:52:11,110 Speaker 2: Well, right, exactly. I mean, I think that's a fully 926 00:52:11,190 --> 00:52:14,160 Speaker 2: legitimate and fascinating question to look into, not the question 927 00:52:14,200 --> 00:52:16,980 Speaker 2: of are there literally ghosts here and not ghosts here, 928 00:52:17,040 --> 00:52:18,940 Speaker 2: but like, why do you get these different beliefs and 929 00:52:18,960 --> 00:52:22,399 Speaker 2: traditions in different cultures? You know, how does history feed 930 00:52:22,460 --> 00:52:26,350 Speaker 2: into the developments One thing I would note is that 931 00:52:26,410 --> 00:52:30,549 Speaker 2: Wallace says that, so he recounts this conversation where this 932 00:52:30,630 --> 00:52:32,839 Speaker 2: guy who comes from Borneo says, hey, yeah, we've got 933 00:52:32,880 --> 00:52:37,140 Speaker 2: ghosts back home. They don't have ghosts here. Wallace does 934 00:52:37,200 --> 00:52:39,780 Speaker 2: note that the people of Lombok did describe a belief 935 00:52:39,840 --> 00:52:42,940 Speaker 2: to him that some men had the power to transform 936 00:52:42,980 --> 00:52:45,870 Speaker 2: into crocodiles in order to eat their enemies. So that's 937 00:52:45,910 --> 00:52:49,609 Speaker 2: pretty cool. Seems different than a ghost, though. 938 00:52:49,770 --> 00:52:52,839 Speaker 1: Yeah, and I'm not sure how crocodile transformation would like 939 00:52:52,860 --> 00:52:56,560 Speaker 1: how that ends up being interpreted by like European spiritualism 940 00:52:56,600 --> 00:52:59,460 Speaker 1: of the time. But that's still fascinating. 941 00:52:59,880 --> 00:53:02,640 Speaker 2: Oh, I can just imagine the kind of distinction made like, oh, 942 00:53:02,760 --> 00:53:05,730 Speaker 2: you know, our spirits are very real and legitimate. Nobody 943 00:53:05,830 --> 00:53:08,730 Speaker 2: actually transforms into crocodiles. That's ridiculous. 944 00:53:10,150 --> 00:53:12,170 Speaker 1: All right. Well, we're going to go ahead and close 945 00:53:12,190 --> 00:53:13,930 Speaker 1: out this episode of Stuff to Blow Your Mind right here, 946 00:53:13,969 --> 00:53:15,650 Speaker 1: but we'll be back for a part two on the 947 00:53:15,690 --> 00:53:19,750 Speaker 1: Wallace line. We'll discuss the concept in more detail and 948 00:53:19,870 --> 00:53:22,750 Speaker 1: probably get into some specific examples too. Right. 949 00:53:23,430 --> 00:53:25,589 Speaker 2: In the next episode, we'll go into more detail about 950 00:53:26,489 --> 00:53:29,310 Speaker 2: why it exists to the extent that it does, as 951 00:53:29,350 --> 00:53:32,009 Speaker 2: well as sort of updates to the concept, like the 952 00:53:32,070 --> 00:53:33,270 Speaker 2: idea of Wallacea. 953 00:53:33,770 --> 00:53:37,290 Speaker 1: Yeah. In the meantime, certainly write in and tell us 954 00:53:37,350 --> 00:53:39,669 Speaker 1: all about your adventures in this part of the world, 955 00:53:39,730 --> 00:53:44,489 Speaker 1: other parts of the world, and of course, your fieldwork. Researchers, 956 00:53:44,700 --> 00:53:46,640 Speaker 1: write in about your fieldwork. We would love to hear 957 00:53:46,700 --> 00:53:51,489 Speaker 1: from you, as well as recommendations for Future episodes of 958 00:53:51,510 --> 00:53:53,509 Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind, we always have an ear 959 00:53:53,550 --> 00:53:55,250 Speaker 1: open for good ideas. 960 00:53:55,930 --> 00:53:59,040 Speaker 2: That's right. What is your equivalent of Wallace's dissecting room 961 00:53:59,380 --> 00:54:03,259 Speaker 2: with every surface covered in ants? The box full of 962 00:54:03,300 --> 00:54:06,520 Speaker 2: bird skins and so forth. Emitting odors. 963 00:54:06,960 --> 00:54:09,180 Speaker 1: Yeah, maybe it's not your work life either. Maybe it's 964 00:54:09,200 --> 00:54:09,859 Speaker 1: your personal life. 965 00:54:10,200 --> 00:54:10,670 Speaker 2: Yeah, write in. 966 00:54:10,780 --> 00:54:13,010 Speaker 1: We'd love to hear from you. And just a reminder, 967 00:54:13,050 --> 00:54:14,830 Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is primarily a science and 968 00:54:14,870 --> 00:54:17,549 Speaker 1: culture podcast with core episodes on Tuesdays and Thursdays. But 969 00:54:17,590 --> 00:54:19,770 Speaker 1: on Fridays, we set aside most serious concerns to just 970 00:54:19,790 --> 00:54:21,870 Speaker 1: talk about a weird film on Weird House Cinema. 971 00:54:22,210 --> 00:54:25,630 Speaker 2: Huge thanks, as always, to our excellent audio producer, J.J. Posway. 972 00:54:26,090 --> 00:54:27,529 Speaker 2: If you would like to get in touch with us 973 00:54:27,570 --> 00:54:29,950 Speaker 2: with feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest 974 00:54:30,010 --> 00:54:31,950 Speaker 2: a topic for the future, or just to say hello, 975 00:54:32,030 --> 00:54:42,840 Speaker 2: you can email us at contact at stufftoblowyourmind.com. Stuff to 976 00:54:42,860 --> 00:54:45,620 Speaker 2: Blow Your Mind is a production of iHeartRadio. For more 977 00:54:45,640 --> 00:54:49,450 Speaker 2: podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app. Apple Podcasts are 978 00:54:49,469 --> 00:54:51,090 Speaker 2: wherever you listen to your favorite shows.