1 00:00:00,320 --> 00:00:03,159 Speaker 1: Just a quick heads up. Today's episode talks about pretty 2 00:00:03,160 --> 00:00:04,200 Speaker 1: intense harassment. 3 00:00:05,160 --> 00:00:09,000 Speaker 2: My first instinct was they always get away with this, 4 00:00:09,119 --> 00:00:11,200 Speaker 2: and they're just not going to do it this time. 5 00:00:16,680 --> 00:00:18,400 Speaker 1: There are No Girls on the Internet. As a production 6 00:00:18,440 --> 00:00:25,959 Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative, I'm Bridge Todd and this 7 00:00:26,040 --> 00:00:30,880 Speaker 1: is there are No Girls on the Internet. So I 8 00:00:30,920 --> 00:00:33,840 Speaker 1: have been following the way that rapper Nicki Minaj uses 9 00:00:33,880 --> 00:00:37,239 Speaker 1: social media for a long time, so you probably already know. 10 00:00:37,520 --> 00:00:40,600 Speaker 1: Last week was kind of a doozy. Nicki Minaj got 11 00:00:40,600 --> 00:00:43,800 Speaker 1: into it with fellow rapper Meg the Stallion after Meg 12 00:00:43,880 --> 00:00:47,480 Speaker 1: dropped her chart tapping single Hiss that includes the line 13 00:00:47,840 --> 00:00:50,400 Speaker 1: these hose don't be mad at Megan, These hose mad 14 00:00:50,440 --> 00:00:53,760 Speaker 1: at Megan's Law. Meghan's Law refers to the law that 15 00:00:53,800 --> 00:00:57,240 Speaker 1: makes information available to the public regarding registered sex offenders, 16 00:00:57,600 --> 00:01:01,480 Speaker 1: and while Meg never mentioned Nicki minajh directly, people thought 17 00:01:01,520 --> 00:01:03,440 Speaker 1: this could be a reference to the fact that Nicki 18 00:01:03,440 --> 00:01:06,639 Speaker 1: Minaj's husband, who was convicted of attempted rape in nineteen 19 00:01:06,720 --> 00:01:10,520 Speaker 1: ninety five, received a three year probation sentence after failing 20 00:01:10,520 --> 00:01:13,600 Speaker 1: to register as a sex offender in twenty twenty, so 21 00:01:14,040 --> 00:01:16,800 Speaker 1: Nicki took to Twitter and launched into an anti Meg 22 00:01:16,840 --> 00:01:19,520 Speaker 1: the Stallion rant, I do not have time to break 23 00:01:19,560 --> 00:01:23,080 Speaker 1: down everything she said here, Like Nicki was tweeting NonStop 24 00:01:23,160 --> 00:01:26,400 Speaker 1: for days, but she made light of Meg being shot 25 00:01:26,720 --> 00:01:31,000 Speaker 1: and even praised right wing provocateur Ben Shapiro. So one 26 00:01:31,000 --> 00:01:33,200 Speaker 1: thing to know about Nicki Minaj is that her most 27 00:01:33,319 --> 00:01:37,479 Speaker 1: loyal fans, the Barbs, are kind of scary, Like I'm 28 00:01:37,480 --> 00:01:40,039 Speaker 1: almost afraid to be talking about them now. They have 29 00:01:40,080 --> 00:01:43,320 Speaker 1: a history of online harassment and doxing people in support 30 00:01:43,360 --> 00:01:46,560 Speaker 1: of their queen, Nicki Minaj, to the point where, according 31 00:01:46,560 --> 00:01:50,120 Speaker 1: to The Houston Chronicle, the graveyard where Meg the Stallion's 32 00:01:50,160 --> 00:01:53,520 Speaker 1: late mom is buried had to up their security out 33 00:01:53,600 --> 00:01:56,440 Speaker 1: of concerns the location will be doxed and desecrated by 34 00:01:56,520 --> 00:02:00,560 Speaker 1: Nicki's fans. And all of this is over showing dedication 35 00:02:00,760 --> 00:02:03,880 Speaker 1: for a musical artist. This is far from the first 36 00:02:03,880 --> 00:02:06,000 Speaker 1: time that Nicki's fans have done this kind of thing. 37 00:02:06,360 --> 00:02:09,800 Speaker 1: Last year, I spoke to Kimberley Foster, a cultural critic 38 00:02:09,880 --> 00:02:12,920 Speaker 1: who found herself at the center of Nicki Minaj's most 39 00:02:12,960 --> 00:02:18,760 Speaker 1: toxic fandom. If you're on the Internet, then you probably 40 00:02:18,800 --> 00:02:23,359 Speaker 1: are familiar with the term Stan, originally popularized in Eminem's 41 00:02:23,360 --> 00:02:26,560 Speaker 1: two Thousand Songs of the same name. Stan tells the 42 00:02:26,600 --> 00:02:31,440 Speaker 1: story of an obsessive Eminem fan. In the song, Stan's 43 00:02:31,440 --> 00:02:35,639 Speaker 1: obsession drives him to express his fandom through violent behavior. 44 00:02:36,680 --> 00:02:40,400 Speaker 1: So fast forward to today, where we've kind of dropped 45 00:02:40,400 --> 00:02:43,200 Speaker 1: the fact that Stan's love of Eminem is not a 46 00:02:43,240 --> 00:02:47,079 Speaker 1: healthy one. Today, a Stan is more of a garden 47 00:02:47,160 --> 00:02:52,400 Speaker 1: variety superman, masking the term's dark origins. So I started 48 00:02:52,400 --> 00:02:55,880 Speaker 1: out this episode wondering when did fandom get so toxic? 49 00:02:56,360 --> 00:02:58,639 Speaker 1: But maybe the truth is that it's always been there. 50 00:02:59,600 --> 00:03:04,000 Speaker 1: But what happens when obsessive fans express their love of 51 00:03:04,040 --> 00:03:08,399 Speaker 1: a particular celebrity in ways that are dangerous or even illegal? 52 00:03:09,440 --> 00:03:14,520 Speaker 1: Last week, cultural critic Kimberly Foster found out. So you 53 00:03:14,600 --> 00:03:17,560 Speaker 1: may remember Kimberly Foster from an earlier episode of their 54 00:03:17,720 --> 00:03:20,360 Speaker 1: No Girls on the Internet we did about Jana Jackson. 55 00:03:20,840 --> 00:03:24,080 Speaker 1: Kimberly is a cultural critic. It's her job to put 56 00:03:24,120 --> 00:03:27,440 Speaker 1: opinions and critiques about popular culture into the world via 57 00:03:27,480 --> 00:03:31,240 Speaker 1: the Internet, and she's been doing it for decades. But 58 00:03:31,800 --> 00:03:36,080 Speaker 1: when she tweeted about rapper Nicki Minaj, Kimberly found herself 59 00:03:36,120 --> 00:03:39,520 Speaker 1: at the heart of a targeted harassment campaign waged by 60 00:03:39,680 --> 00:03:45,240 Speaker 1: obsessive Nicki Minaj fans collectively known as the Barbs. Now 61 00:03:45,320 --> 00:03:48,520 Speaker 1: I'm not talking about casual fans or even huge fans. 62 00:03:48,920 --> 00:03:49,960 Speaker 3: The barbs are. 63 00:03:49,840 --> 00:03:54,680 Speaker 1: Something else, entirely people who make their entire online identity 64 00:03:54,840 --> 00:03:59,240 Speaker 1: a shrine to Nicki Minaj. Their Twitter bios include details 65 00:03:59,280 --> 00:04:03,640 Speaker 1: like tweeted by Niki on April fourteen or Nicki follows. 66 00:04:04,160 --> 00:04:08,240 Speaker 1: So when Kimberly tweeted critically about Nicki Minaj, her personal 67 00:04:08,280 --> 00:04:13,120 Speaker 1: information was posted online known as dosing, and worse, she 68 00:04:13,400 --> 00:04:17,080 Speaker 1: and her family got violent threats, and for a lot 69 00:04:17,080 --> 00:04:20,560 Speaker 1: of us, the story might end there. But Kimberly is 70 00:04:20,600 --> 00:04:24,360 Speaker 1: pursuing legal action. So you might be thinking, who cares? 71 00:04:24,520 --> 00:04:28,000 Speaker 1: Isn't this just stupid celebrity drama. But in taking a 72 00:04:28,080 --> 00:04:31,800 Speaker 1: legal stand, Kimberly may very well be setting a precedent 73 00:04:32,080 --> 00:04:34,720 Speaker 1: that shapes online discourse for years to come. 74 00:04:36,200 --> 00:04:40,080 Speaker 2: My name is Kimberly Nicole Foster, and I'm a culture 75 00:04:40,200 --> 00:04:41,640 Speaker 2: critic and YouTuber. 76 00:04:43,080 --> 00:04:45,159 Speaker 1: So first I just have to start by asking, with 77 00:04:45,240 --> 00:04:47,840 Speaker 1: everything going on, how is Kimberly? 78 00:04:47,960 --> 00:04:48,440 Speaker 3: How are you? 79 00:04:50,080 --> 00:04:56,040 Speaker 2: I am surviving? I'm okay, I mean, I've definitely been better, 80 00:04:56,240 --> 00:04:59,760 Speaker 2: but I've also definitely been worse. So that helps me 81 00:04:59,839 --> 00:05:04,920 Speaker 2: ma sane perspective, but not the highlight, not the pinnacle, 82 00:05:05,240 --> 00:05:07,320 Speaker 2: the zenith of my life for sure right now. 83 00:05:08,120 --> 00:05:10,320 Speaker 1: So tell us what happened on September twelfth. 84 00:05:11,080 --> 00:05:16,159 Speaker 2: Yeah, So early in the morning on Monday, September twelfth, 85 00:05:16,600 --> 00:05:22,120 Speaker 2: I was scrolling my Instagram and I came across one 86 00:05:22,160 --> 00:05:27,800 Speaker 2: of those Instagram blogs and they posted something about a 87 00:05:27,880 --> 00:05:32,160 Speaker 2: new beef that Nicki Minaj appeared to be and she 88 00:05:32,320 --> 00:05:37,480 Speaker 2: was saying something on some new app and other young 89 00:05:37,720 --> 00:05:41,159 Speaker 2: women rappers were responding, and it was just a new 90 00:05:41,200 --> 00:05:47,000 Speaker 2: thing brewing. And I went to my timeline on Twitter, 91 00:05:47,040 --> 00:05:51,280 Speaker 2: as I'm want to do, and I tweeted out something 92 00:05:51,320 --> 00:05:55,120 Speaker 2: about it and went to sleep. I mean it was 93 00:05:55,640 --> 00:05:58,640 Speaker 2: three or four o'clock in the morning. I'm barely awake, 94 00:05:59,680 --> 00:06:04,000 Speaker 2: and I wake up the next morning because I'm super 95 00:06:04,040 --> 00:06:07,919 Speaker 2: excited to go to my niece's school and bring them lunch. 96 00:06:08,200 --> 00:06:11,080 Speaker 2: They were having a kind of friends and family day 97 00:06:11,279 --> 00:06:13,240 Speaker 2: and they had invited me to go, and I was 98 00:06:13,240 --> 00:06:15,640 Speaker 2: so excited because I'm obsessed with being the best aunt 99 00:06:15,640 --> 00:06:20,920 Speaker 2: in the world. And I remember picking out my outfit 100 00:06:21,000 --> 00:06:24,360 Speaker 2: that morning and doing my hair, and my niece had 101 00:06:24,400 --> 00:06:27,960 Speaker 2: even warned me, yeah, dressed like a mom, Kim, don't 102 00:06:28,000 --> 00:06:31,359 Speaker 2: dress like a young person. Dressed like a mom, you know, 103 00:06:31,760 --> 00:06:34,640 Speaker 2: no prop tops, no short shorts. And so I'm trying 104 00:06:34,680 --> 00:06:38,600 Speaker 2: to pick out my best cool aunt outfit, and all 105 00:06:38,600 --> 00:06:42,640 Speaker 2: of a sudden, my phone starts that, you know, very 106 00:06:42,720 --> 00:06:46,000 Speaker 2: classic iPhone that tone. 107 00:06:46,080 --> 00:06:47,000 Speaker 1: And I'm hearing it. 108 00:06:47,080 --> 00:06:48,479 Speaker 4: I'm like, who was texting you? 109 00:06:48,640 --> 00:06:48,839 Speaker 3: What? 110 00:06:49,680 --> 00:06:53,240 Speaker 2: And then I keep hearing it, keep hearing it, and 111 00:06:53,240 --> 00:06:56,799 Speaker 2: then I hear the FaceTime tone, and I'm like, WHOA, 112 00:06:56,920 --> 00:07:00,880 Speaker 2: something is happening. And I pick up my phone. Of 113 00:07:00,920 --> 00:07:05,080 Speaker 2: course my lock screen, and all on my lock screen 114 00:07:05,120 --> 00:07:10,920 Speaker 2: there are six or seven messages, and I don't know 115 00:07:10,960 --> 00:07:13,240 Speaker 2: what's happening, but I see the word NICKI on one 116 00:07:13,280 --> 00:07:15,880 Speaker 2: of those messages on the lock screen, and I knew 117 00:07:15,920 --> 00:07:18,240 Speaker 2: exactly what it was. It was like I was in 118 00:07:18,280 --> 00:07:22,800 Speaker 2: a movie. I'd heard about this, I'd seen it happen. 119 00:07:23,680 --> 00:07:26,200 Speaker 2: I never paid that much attention to it when it 120 00:07:26,240 --> 00:07:29,280 Speaker 2: was happening, but I'd been vaguely aware. But I knew 121 00:07:29,360 --> 00:07:34,280 Speaker 2: exactly what was happening. And so I'm trying to I 122 00:07:34,320 --> 00:07:37,200 Speaker 2: still have to go to my niecea school. I have 123 00:07:37,320 --> 00:07:40,120 Speaker 2: to bring them lunch, I promised them. And so I'm 124 00:07:40,160 --> 00:07:44,880 Speaker 2: trying to simultaneously focus on getting myself together, getting out 125 00:07:44,880 --> 00:07:49,760 Speaker 2: of the house, being on time, and deal with all 126 00:07:49,800 --> 00:07:54,200 Speaker 2: of this stuff that's coming in. And initially I saw 127 00:07:54,280 --> 00:07:57,640 Speaker 2: the word NICKI and I thought, okay, whatever. 128 00:08:00,120 --> 00:08:00,360 Speaker 3: I mean? 129 00:08:00,400 --> 00:08:01,160 Speaker 1: Did I think I mean? 130 00:08:01,200 --> 00:08:03,480 Speaker 2: I thought, okay, I can deal with this. I can 131 00:08:03,480 --> 00:08:08,600 Speaker 2: deal with this, like, let's focus. And then I remember 132 00:08:08,600 --> 00:08:10,680 Speaker 2: looking at the phone and it was. 133 00:08:12,480 --> 00:08:12,840 Speaker 1: Violent. 134 00:08:13,560 --> 00:08:14,160 Speaker 3: It was. 135 00:08:16,600 --> 00:08:19,680 Speaker 2: I'm gonna shoot you, I'm going to kill your family. 136 00:08:19,800 --> 00:08:22,640 Speaker 2: I'm going to murder you, I'm going to kidnap you. 137 00:08:23,640 --> 00:08:28,360 Speaker 2: I'm going to find where you live, and you're not 138 00:08:28,440 --> 00:08:33,160 Speaker 2: going to be safe. And then it becomes scary. 139 00:08:33,320 --> 00:08:36,960 Speaker 1: Kimberly pretty quickly realized this was not just a few 140 00:08:37,000 --> 00:08:41,120 Speaker 1: people giving her snarky, mean replies on Twitter. This was 141 00:08:41,160 --> 00:08:42,480 Speaker 1: something else entirely. 142 00:08:43,480 --> 00:08:49,520 Speaker 2: Then it gets to be uh oh, because I don't 143 00:08:49,559 --> 00:08:53,199 Speaker 2: know what they know. I don't know how they found 144 00:08:53,200 --> 00:08:56,880 Speaker 2: my phone number at that point. But you can change 145 00:08:56,880 --> 00:09:04,360 Speaker 2: your phone number, but once it gets to I know 146 00:09:04,440 --> 00:09:12,360 Speaker 2: your address and multiple multiple text messages to and even 147 00:09:12,480 --> 00:09:17,440 Speaker 2: you know the initial phone number violation is like whoa 148 00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:22,280 Speaker 2: That's where I'm like, oh, because if this was just tweets, 149 00:09:22,320 --> 00:09:26,520 Speaker 2: you log off Twitter, you're closely like, Okay, I have 150 00:09:26,559 --> 00:09:31,520 Speaker 2: a life, but this is my phone number, the phone 151 00:09:31,559 --> 00:09:35,200 Speaker 2: number that I've had since I was seventeen, eighteen years old. 152 00:09:35,240 --> 00:09:39,000 Speaker 2: I'm thirty three now. I'm not giving it out willy nilly. 153 00:09:39,080 --> 00:09:40,880 Speaker 2: I don't know where they've gotten it. And if they 154 00:09:40,880 --> 00:09:43,240 Speaker 2: found the phone number, what else do you have about me, 155 00:09:43,760 --> 00:09:48,360 Speaker 2: about my family that you're threatening to kidnap and mutilate 156 00:09:48,520 --> 00:09:53,520 Speaker 2: and murder and sexually assault, and so, yeah, there was 157 00:09:53,600 --> 00:09:56,200 Speaker 2: just a lot going on. I do have to show 158 00:09:56,280 --> 00:09:59,440 Speaker 2: up for my nieces. I'm completely distracted the entire time 159 00:09:59,440 --> 00:10:02,400 Speaker 2: that I'm there. Afterwards, I get in my car, I 160 00:10:02,440 --> 00:10:06,800 Speaker 2: call the police. The police say, you can't come in. 161 00:10:07,320 --> 00:10:10,400 Speaker 2: We can't accept anything over the phone. You have to 162 00:10:10,760 --> 00:10:13,360 Speaker 2: do it online. So then I have to drive the 163 00:10:13,520 --> 00:10:17,560 Speaker 2: thirty forty minutes back home and sit down and fill 164 00:10:17,600 --> 00:10:23,920 Speaker 2: out that first police report, which is like, there was. 165 00:10:23,840 --> 00:10:24,920 Speaker 4: A frustrating process. 166 00:10:24,960 --> 00:10:26,800 Speaker 2: I'll say that I won't go too much into that, 167 00:10:29,120 --> 00:10:33,600 Speaker 2: and yeah, it just it just continued. And then I 168 00:10:33,640 --> 00:10:38,920 Speaker 2: saw the screenshots of where things were coming from, you know, 169 00:10:38,960 --> 00:10:45,360 Speaker 2: people circulating my phone number. These Nicki Minaj fans barbs right, 170 00:10:45,400 --> 00:10:49,880 Speaker 2: because if I haven't made it clear, the Nikki is 171 00:10:50,000 --> 00:10:53,360 Speaker 2: Nicki Minaj. And I realized that this is a a 172 00:10:53,440 --> 00:10:59,319 Speaker 2: coordinated campaign of harassment via the quote unquote barbed community. 173 00:11:00,200 --> 00:11:04,319 Speaker 2: And people are sending me screenshots of this person shared 174 00:11:04,360 --> 00:11:07,600 Speaker 2: your number, and they shared it over here and here 175 00:11:07,720 --> 00:11:11,440 Speaker 2: and here, and I see some of these some of 176 00:11:11,480 --> 00:11:16,120 Speaker 2: these Twitter accounts have thousands of followers. I saw one 177 00:11:16,240 --> 00:11:22,000 Speaker 2: Twitter account that had almost sixteen thousand followers of let's 178 00:11:22,040 --> 00:11:24,840 Speaker 2: text her and show her and you're not going to 179 00:11:24,840 --> 00:11:27,680 Speaker 2: get away with this and she'll know better next time. 180 00:11:28,880 --> 00:11:33,360 Speaker 2: And then I see them circulating a screenshot of my 181 00:11:33,440 --> 00:11:37,839 Speaker 2: phone number and what is fortunately my previous home address, 182 00:11:38,800 --> 00:11:42,720 Speaker 2: and I'm like, oh, yeah, that's scary. That's scary not 183 00:11:42,800 --> 00:11:44,960 Speaker 2: only for me now, but it's scary for the person 184 00:11:44,960 --> 00:11:46,240 Speaker 2: who currently lives there. 185 00:11:47,160 --> 00:11:51,360 Speaker 1: Amidst all of this, the threats, the harassment, the slurs, 186 00:11:51,960 --> 00:11:56,640 Speaker 1: Kimberly's first instinct with physical safety. She needed to make 187 00:11:56,679 --> 00:11:59,800 Speaker 1: sure that her, her family, and the people living in 188 00:11:59,800 --> 00:12:02,480 Speaker 1: her building we're all okay, and. 189 00:12:02,480 --> 00:12:08,800 Speaker 2: So yeah, that happens in My first thoughts were my 190 00:12:08,880 --> 00:12:16,079 Speaker 2: first thoughts were I have to make sure I'm safe. 191 00:12:16,400 --> 00:12:18,480 Speaker 2: They are telling me they know where I live. So 192 00:12:18,559 --> 00:12:21,320 Speaker 2: I also had to contact my building. As soon as 193 00:12:21,360 --> 00:12:25,000 Speaker 2: I got back home, I went to the building manager's 194 00:12:25,040 --> 00:12:27,360 Speaker 2: office and explained to her, and she was like, you know, 195 00:12:27,400 --> 00:12:31,160 Speaker 2: because people who aren't extremely online are like, what's happening? 196 00:12:31,280 --> 00:12:31,360 Speaker 3: What? 197 00:12:32,000 --> 00:12:35,000 Speaker 2: And then I have to you know, email her exactly 198 00:12:35,120 --> 00:12:37,040 Speaker 2: you know what's in my phone and she's like, oh my, 199 00:12:37,360 --> 00:12:40,840 Speaker 2: like you know, and they have a responsibility to protect 200 00:12:40,840 --> 00:12:45,240 Speaker 2: the hundreds of other people who live here, you know, 201 00:12:46,160 --> 00:12:48,880 Speaker 2: the police stuff. And then of course people send me 202 00:12:49,360 --> 00:12:56,840 Speaker 2: screenshots of someone tweeting I'm gonna find the kids school. 203 00:12:56,920 --> 00:13:03,520 Speaker 2: I'm looking up the kids school address right now, and 204 00:13:03,559 --> 00:13:06,040 Speaker 2: that of course, anybody who knows me knows that how 205 00:13:06,080 --> 00:13:10,720 Speaker 2: much I loved my nieces and would literally die to 206 00:13:10,760 --> 00:13:13,040 Speaker 2: protect them and jump in front of a moving train. 207 00:13:14,559 --> 00:13:18,480 Speaker 2: I alerted the FBI about that stuff. I mean, it 208 00:13:18,640 --> 00:13:25,080 Speaker 2: was just overwhelming in the truest sense of the word. Yeah, 209 00:13:25,160 --> 00:13:27,120 Speaker 2: and so but I, you know, I was like, Okay, 210 00:13:27,200 --> 00:13:30,800 Speaker 2: you have to keep this together. I'm trying to publicly 211 00:13:30,880 --> 00:13:36,480 Speaker 2: document this because I felt like that is that was 212 00:13:36,520 --> 00:13:43,679 Speaker 2: my only hope. I felt like, I'll say this in 213 00:13:43,720 --> 00:13:46,960 Speaker 2: the last couple of weeks, I've gotten so many messages 214 00:13:47,080 --> 00:13:50,640 Speaker 2: from people about this kind of stuff happening to them 215 00:13:51,080 --> 00:13:57,000 Speaker 2: from that particular stand community, and the recurring theme is 216 00:13:58,480 --> 00:14:03,240 Speaker 2: when it happened to me people new photos have been leaked, 217 00:14:03,480 --> 00:14:06,680 Speaker 2: their phone numbers have been leaked. In fact, on that Monday, 218 00:14:07,080 --> 00:14:10,800 Speaker 2: I wasn't the only person who the barbs docked. 219 00:14:13,400 --> 00:14:14,200 Speaker 1: And decided. 220 00:14:14,240 --> 00:14:17,120 Speaker 2: I didn't do anything about it because I couldn't. Nobody 221 00:14:17,160 --> 00:14:19,640 Speaker 2: was going to listen to me. I didn't have money 222 00:14:19,640 --> 00:14:23,760 Speaker 2: to afford a lawyer, I only have a couple hundred followers, 223 00:14:24,040 --> 00:14:28,320 Speaker 2: I don't have a platform, and my first instinct was 224 00:14:28,960 --> 00:14:31,600 Speaker 2: they always get away with this, and they're just not 225 00:14:31,720 --> 00:14:34,240 Speaker 2: going to do it this time, and so that really 226 00:14:35,520 --> 00:14:39,280 Speaker 2: motivated my desire to really lay this out and make 227 00:14:39,320 --> 00:14:44,840 Speaker 2: sure that I was going to pursue it via whatever 228 00:14:46,080 --> 00:14:47,400 Speaker 2: avenues were available to me. 229 00:14:49,880 --> 00:14:52,440 Speaker 1: I have to say I talked to a lot of people, 230 00:14:52,880 --> 00:14:55,280 Speaker 1: usually black women, who are at the center of this 231 00:14:55,400 --> 00:14:59,400 Speaker 1: kind of coordinated harassment and online abuse, and they all 232 00:14:59,440 --> 00:15:03,600 Speaker 1: say that like nobody either a it was so difficult 233 00:15:03,640 --> 00:15:05,600 Speaker 1: to describe what was happening the people who were not 234 00:15:06,520 --> 00:15:09,840 Speaker 1: extremely online, and that was incredibly isolating the people that 235 00:15:09,920 --> 00:15:12,400 Speaker 1: I would go to for help didn't really understand what 236 00:15:12,440 --> 00:15:14,160 Speaker 1: I was talking about, So I wasn't able to get 237 00:15:14,160 --> 00:15:18,080 Speaker 1: that help. I didn't have money, support, access to fight back, 238 00:15:18,200 --> 00:15:20,680 Speaker 1: and so I just had to deal with it. And 239 00:15:20,760 --> 00:15:24,080 Speaker 1: I think why I'm so interested in what you're doing 240 00:15:24,120 --> 00:15:26,600 Speaker 1: is because I think it sets a clear precedent that 241 00:15:26,960 --> 00:15:30,080 Speaker 1: this is not acceptable. This is not acceptable online discourse, 242 00:15:30,120 --> 00:15:33,080 Speaker 1: This is not acceptable online behavior and people. It should 243 00:15:33,080 --> 00:15:36,720 Speaker 1: not just be the cost of for you, Kimberly really 244 00:15:36,760 --> 00:15:39,440 Speaker 1: doing your job as a cultural critic, Like this is 245 00:15:39,480 --> 00:15:41,160 Speaker 1: what you're supposed to be doing, this is what you 246 00:15:41,720 --> 00:15:43,560 Speaker 1: this is why I follow you, This is like what like, 247 00:15:44,160 --> 00:15:47,120 Speaker 1: this is your job, It's how you make money. That 248 00:15:47,120 --> 00:15:49,800 Speaker 1: should not just be the cost of Kimberly doing her 249 00:15:49,880 --> 00:15:53,160 Speaker 1: job having these kinds of threats. And another misconception that 250 00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:55,960 Speaker 1: I've seen online a lot is that, oh, Kimberly is 251 00:15:55,960 --> 00:15:59,400 Speaker 1: a public figure, you know, people are allowed to push back. 252 00:15:59,600 --> 00:16:01,560 Speaker 1: The kind of things that I saw with my own 253 00:16:01,640 --> 00:16:05,480 Speaker 1: eyes are violent threats. It's things like I know the 254 00:16:05,560 --> 00:16:08,720 Speaker 1: kid's school address. I saw one where someone was saying 255 00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:11,720 Speaker 1: like very specific things about the building that you lived in, Like, oh, 256 00:16:11,720 --> 00:16:13,520 Speaker 1: you think you are safe because you live in a 257 00:16:13,560 --> 00:16:16,560 Speaker 1: secure building. Well, YadA, YadA YadA, like these this is 258 00:16:16,600 --> 00:16:19,280 Speaker 1: not discourse. This is violent threats and it's against the 259 00:16:19,360 --> 00:16:21,920 Speaker 1: law and you should not have to put up with 260 00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:28,239 Speaker 1: it just because you angered the wrong toxic stand community 261 00:16:28,280 --> 00:16:31,520 Speaker 1: Like that's that's I'm just in all that you are 262 00:16:31,600 --> 00:16:34,400 Speaker 1: trying to set this new precedent that just draws a 263 00:16:34,400 --> 00:16:35,920 Speaker 1: line in the sand for what is it is not 264 00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:39,600 Speaker 1: acceptable online. Yeah. 265 00:16:39,760 --> 00:16:43,840 Speaker 2: I have to say though, I was rather impressed by 266 00:16:43,880 --> 00:16:51,880 Speaker 2: how coordinated not only the dissemination, the distribution of my 267 00:16:53,360 --> 00:16:58,280 Speaker 2: phone number and previous address work, but also the messaging 268 00:16:58,720 --> 00:17:04,640 Speaker 2: that they used around boxing me and harassing me and 269 00:17:04,920 --> 00:17:10,920 Speaker 2: sending me these terroristic threats from account to account to account. 270 00:17:11,240 --> 00:17:13,960 Speaker 2: And these are old accounts, right, And another thing people 271 00:17:13,960 --> 00:17:16,960 Speaker 2: try to push back on, these are trolls. This account 272 00:17:16,960 --> 00:17:23,080 Speaker 2: is from September. There's accounts years old old that they 273 00:17:23,160 --> 00:17:28,040 Speaker 2: are using the same language, they are using the same 274 00:17:28,160 --> 00:17:33,040 Speaker 2: talking points. The word unprovoked came up a lot. Yes, 275 00:17:33,200 --> 00:17:36,920 Speaker 2: you're right, they said you are in public. How why 276 00:17:36,920 --> 00:17:39,600 Speaker 2: do you think that you get to say these things 277 00:17:39,640 --> 00:17:43,200 Speaker 2: publicly and nobody gets to say anything back to you, 278 00:17:43,600 --> 00:17:47,320 Speaker 2: or why do you think that you get to harass 279 00:17:48,840 --> 00:17:57,720 Speaker 2: Nicki Minaje and you don't deserve harassment. One that makes 280 00:17:57,920 --> 00:18:03,280 Speaker 2: no fucking sense, Like that's it's nonsense. Those are nonsensical arguments. 281 00:18:03,359 --> 00:18:07,800 Speaker 2: But seeing it dozens of times, hundreds of times at 282 00:18:07,800 --> 00:18:09,520 Speaker 2: this point over the last couple. 283 00:18:09,240 --> 00:18:10,600 Speaker 5: Of weeks, I'm like WHOA. 284 00:18:11,440 --> 00:18:16,800 Speaker 2: And maybe a week ago a Cardi B stand account 285 00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:22,040 Speaker 2: tweeted me and said they get together in group chats 286 00:18:22,080 --> 00:18:27,360 Speaker 2: and they they figure out what they're going to say. Said, Oh, 287 00:18:27,600 --> 00:18:31,720 Speaker 2: that makes perfect sense. It's like, oh, that is why 288 00:18:31,760 --> 00:18:36,400 Speaker 2: I'm seeing the exact same language from these well established 289 00:18:36,880 --> 00:18:42,520 Speaker 2: stand accounts with thousands of followers and created in twenty fifteen. 290 00:18:43,080 --> 00:18:47,879 Speaker 2: They're all coming together to descend, share these details and 291 00:18:47,920 --> 00:18:52,800 Speaker 2: say the exact same things. It's so well organized, imagined 292 00:18:52,800 --> 00:18:56,600 Speaker 2: if you put this work and effort and intentionality into 293 00:18:56,640 --> 00:18:58,719 Speaker 2: something that's not illegal. 294 00:18:59,560 --> 00:19:01,560 Speaker 1: But but yeah that. 295 00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:08,560 Speaker 2: I say my opinions in public. I don't say things 296 00:19:08,600 --> 00:19:13,240 Speaker 2: that are false or defamatory. I don't say things that 297 00:19:13,280 --> 00:19:18,879 Speaker 2: are untrue. I talk about my feelings, I analyze things. 298 00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:22,440 Speaker 2: I'm very very careful. I'm really really good at my job. 299 00:19:23,280 --> 00:19:26,720 Speaker 2: And no, that does not mean that I deserved to 300 00:19:26,760 --> 00:19:31,120 Speaker 2: be docsed. That does not mean that my family deserves 301 00:19:31,160 --> 00:19:34,760 Speaker 2: to feel whatever they feel. Right now, I'll tell you 302 00:19:34,800 --> 00:19:39,040 Speaker 2: something else. The day that I had to email my 303 00:19:39,520 --> 00:19:45,040 Speaker 2: niece's principal and vice principal and say, these are my 304 00:19:45,119 --> 00:19:49,560 Speaker 2: two nieces. They're in this grade, this is what's happened 305 00:19:49,600 --> 00:19:53,080 Speaker 2: to me. Here are screenshots of what I received. This 306 00:19:53,160 --> 00:19:54,800 Speaker 2: is what I sent to the police. This is the 307 00:19:54,840 --> 00:19:57,880 Speaker 2: police report number. This is what I sent to the 308 00:19:58,040 --> 00:20:01,760 Speaker 2: FBI c seing my sister on that. It wasn't a 309 00:20:01,760 --> 00:20:05,159 Speaker 2: good day. It wasn't and they didn't deserve that, and 310 00:20:05,200 --> 00:20:06,000 Speaker 2: I didn't deserve that. 311 00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:11,119 Speaker 1: Absolutely fucking not. Uh, absolutely not. 312 00:20:14,040 --> 00:20:27,120 Speaker 3: Let's take a quick break at our back. 313 00:20:28,280 --> 00:20:31,439 Speaker 1: It's so interesting that you talk about the coordination, because, 314 00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:34,679 Speaker 1: like I said, I feel like I watched this happen, 315 00:20:35,040 --> 00:20:37,240 Speaker 1: like I watched it unfold, and I watched it get like, 316 00:20:37,760 --> 00:20:41,200 Speaker 1: you know, blow up. And so one of the talking 317 00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:44,120 Speaker 1: points that I saw repeated quite a bit was that 318 00:20:44,600 --> 00:20:49,320 Speaker 1: Kimberly put her address and phone number on the internet herself. 319 00:20:49,800 --> 00:20:53,359 Speaker 1: If you do that willingly, that means it can't be dosing. 320 00:20:53,560 --> 00:20:56,840 Speaker 1: And I saw that so many times repeated that I 321 00:20:56,920 --> 00:20:59,320 Speaker 1: almost was like, well, maybe that's true. Then I took 322 00:20:59,320 --> 00:21:00,840 Speaker 1: a step back. I was like, wait a minute, I 323 00:21:00,880 --> 00:21:04,000 Speaker 1: actually know quite a bit about doxing. That's not correct. 324 00:21:04,280 --> 00:21:07,080 Speaker 1: You know, one thing that people might be surprised to 325 00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:10,159 Speaker 1: learn is that pretty much anybody in the United States, 326 00:21:10,280 --> 00:21:15,040 Speaker 1: our public information is for sale via really sketchy people 327 00:21:15,119 --> 00:21:17,760 Speaker 1: find their websites. And I hate to say it, but 328 00:21:17,880 --> 00:21:20,680 Speaker 1: nine times out of ten, the reason why our information 329 00:21:20,760 --> 00:21:23,240 Speaker 1: is on those websites is not because we put it there. 330 00:21:23,320 --> 00:21:27,120 Speaker 1: It's because our local city services, you know, the DMV, 331 00:21:27,680 --> 00:21:32,879 Speaker 1: you know, our voter registration are polls. They often sell, 332 00:21:33,040 --> 00:21:37,120 Speaker 1: bundle and sell that data to third party sketchy websites, 333 00:21:37,160 --> 00:21:39,520 Speaker 1: and so it is terrifying. But I just need to 334 00:21:39,520 --> 00:21:42,480 Speaker 1: make very clear that pretty much all of our personal 335 00:21:42,520 --> 00:21:46,320 Speaker 1: information is for sale if somebody wants to buy it online, 336 00:21:46,359 --> 00:21:50,000 Speaker 1: and so that the idea that that would mean that 337 00:21:50,080 --> 00:21:54,240 Speaker 1: it's not then illegal to disseminate that information just doesn't 338 00:21:54,320 --> 00:21:57,919 Speaker 1: just doesn't make any sense. Like that's that's absolutely not true. 339 00:21:58,240 --> 00:22:01,120 Speaker 1: And the fact that I saw that true claim repeated 340 00:22:01,160 --> 00:22:04,800 Speaker 1: so many times just lets me know how savvy folks 341 00:22:04,840 --> 00:22:12,000 Speaker 1: are about disseminating. I will give them accurate sounding, but 342 00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:15,880 Speaker 1: not accurate information that makes them look bad. That makes 343 00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:18,399 Speaker 1: them look look like they haven't done anything wrong. It 344 00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:19,320 Speaker 1: makes you look bad. 345 00:22:19,640 --> 00:22:23,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's mis and disinformation because some people definitely shared 346 00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:28,600 Speaker 2: false information intentionally. But there's a couple of things here. 347 00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:33,560 Speaker 2: Right after this happened, I immediately went to how did 348 00:22:33,560 --> 00:22:34,879 Speaker 2: they give my phone number? Like? 349 00:22:34,960 --> 00:22:36,359 Speaker 5: What? How did that happen? 350 00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:41,200 Speaker 2: And I can totally admit now, I can totally admit 351 00:22:41,280 --> 00:22:44,520 Speaker 2: now that my first instinct was to blame myself, like 352 00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:47,200 Speaker 2: where did I I must have put it up somewhere. 353 00:22:47,240 --> 00:22:50,080 Speaker 2: There's no way that people are digging and looking and 354 00:22:50,119 --> 00:22:52,600 Speaker 2: searching like it's got to be you know, I've been 355 00:22:52,640 --> 00:22:54,520 Speaker 2: on the Internet for a long time. It's got to 356 00:22:54,560 --> 00:22:57,560 Speaker 2: be somewhere. And I just say it's got to be 357 00:22:57,640 --> 00:23:01,439 Speaker 2: somewhere on my YouTube channel. And I went back and 358 00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:05,439 Speaker 2: I checked all of the places. I checked my social media, 359 00:23:06,560 --> 00:23:08,920 Speaker 2: all of the pages that I've had for I've been 360 00:23:08,920 --> 00:23:13,119 Speaker 2: an Internet person for over a decade. It's not anywhere 361 00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:19,000 Speaker 2: publicly accessible. It's not anywhere even privately accessible. And so 362 00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:24,119 Speaker 2: that claim that, honestly, I think people are trying to 363 00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:27,239 Speaker 2: they might have heard something that I said and then 364 00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:30,359 Speaker 2: they're repeating it back to me. As back, It's not true. 365 00:23:30,760 --> 00:23:33,800 Speaker 2: It's just not true. I mean I checked and double 366 00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:38,480 Speaker 2: checked and went through had I probably have thirty Facebook pages, 367 00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:43,239 Speaker 2: Twitter accounts. It's not there. It was not there. And 368 00:23:43,280 --> 00:23:47,600 Speaker 2: so yes, they very they had to be very intentional 369 00:23:47,800 --> 00:23:54,840 Speaker 2: about seeking out that information. But also it's not just 370 00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:57,640 Speaker 2: about the finding of the information, because yes, Bridget as 371 00:23:57,640 --> 00:24:03,879 Speaker 2: you said, unfortunately millions of people don't know that it's 372 00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:08,600 Speaker 2: pretty easy to find out your phone number and your 373 00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:11,879 Speaker 2: and your home address at least the last phone address 374 00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:14,480 Speaker 2: that's on any public I mean, your home address, at 375 00:24:14,560 --> 00:24:17,520 Speaker 2: least the last home address that's on any public record. 376 00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:22,880 Speaker 2: But seeking out that information and sharing it with the 377 00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:29,080 Speaker 2: intention of harassing somebody and threatening them is one hundred percent, 378 00:24:29,760 --> 00:24:38,000 Speaker 2: unequivocally illegal. The distribution of personal information with I mean 379 00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:43,199 Speaker 2: people literally explicitly said, but I'm doxing today, give me 380 00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:45,840 Speaker 2: give me Kim's number. I got something I want to 381 00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:48,640 Speaker 2: say to her. I mean, there's a long we got 382 00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:54,760 Speaker 2: my my drop box, uh with the strange shots, right, 383 00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:57,280 Speaker 2: it's it's it's a lot, it's a lot, right. 384 00:24:58,080 --> 00:24:59,160 Speaker 1: And so when you. 385 00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:08,280 Speaker 2: Say out to create this, as I said, like almost militaristic, 386 00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:16,240 Speaker 2: so careful, organized, I'll call it a campaign of abuse, 387 00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:25,240 Speaker 2: one hundred percent, unequivocally, open and shutcase. I mean, there's 388 00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:28,560 Speaker 2: just that's not even something that I feel the need 389 00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:31,680 Speaker 2: to go back and forth about. But I will say 390 00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:36,639 Speaker 2: this that I have spent hundreds of dollars now to 391 00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:46,119 Speaker 2: have my information scraped from the Internet. People should not 392 00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:50,679 Speaker 2: have to pay hundreds of dollars to make sure that 393 00:25:51,119 --> 00:25:55,960 Speaker 2: they are not susceptible or vulnerable to what happened to 394 00:25:56,000 --> 00:25:58,000 Speaker 2: me on September. 395 00:25:57,520 --> 00:26:01,520 Speaker 5: Twelfth, thirteenth, fourteen, fifteen sixteen. Right, that should not be 396 00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:02,080 Speaker 5: the case. 397 00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:06,280 Speaker 1: The Barbs falsely maintained that Kimberly must have put her 398 00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:10,280 Speaker 1: own information online voluntarily herself at some point or another. 399 00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:14,320 Speaker 1: Otherwise how would they have gotten it to spread. So 400 00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:16,720 Speaker 1: it can't really be doxing if she put her own 401 00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:22,639 Speaker 1: personal information out there, right wrong. Look, the scary reality 402 00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:25,639 Speaker 1: is that pretty much all of our personal information is 403 00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:28,320 Speaker 1: for sale in the United States, whether you put it 404 00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:32,080 Speaker 1: out there yourself or not. We spoke to Sean A. Delavo, 405 00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:35,320 Speaker 1: the EO of the anti doxing service bright Lines, and 406 00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:36,320 Speaker 1: here's what she had to say. 407 00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:42,680 Speaker 4: It is state agencies, whether they're DMVs, that's pretty well documented. 408 00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:47,359 Speaker 4: If they are utilities, if they are law enforcement databases 409 00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:50,680 Speaker 4: that are getting sold to data brokers who are then 410 00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:52,960 Speaker 4: selling them back to us. If it's like ICE or 411 00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:56,280 Speaker 4: some other federal agency, but they're also selling them to 412 00:26:56,359 --> 00:26:58,040 Speaker 4: data brokers. 413 00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:02,080 Speaker 1: Just to make sure I understand, so, state agencies, the DMV, 414 00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:06,879 Speaker 1: my utilities company, my pepco, whatever, they might be the 415 00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:09,640 Speaker 1: ones who are selling this data and making money off 416 00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:12,120 Speaker 1: of it that is putting people at risk. 417 00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:15,040 Speaker 4: They are the ones that are doing. 418 00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:18,159 Speaker 1: Wow, this is shocking information to me. You're probably like, oh, yeah, 419 00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:21,440 Speaker 1: buckle up, it gets worse. But I think that would 420 00:27:21,440 --> 00:27:23,200 Speaker 1: be shocking information to both people. 421 00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:26,320 Speaker 4: Right, you would never know it until you went to Floya, 422 00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:30,119 Speaker 4: And I'd say, in addition to utilities, we know that 423 00:27:30,359 --> 00:27:35,000 Speaker 4: courts sell court records, and those usually like so you 424 00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:37,240 Speaker 4: imagine that you get a parking ticket because I lived 425 00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:39,359 Speaker 4: in DC and I can never remember which side of 426 00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:41,439 Speaker 4: the street is street cleaning this week. I get a 427 00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:44,479 Speaker 4: parking ticket, and then there's a traffic court data. If 428 00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:46,560 Speaker 4: I want to go, I don't even think about it 429 00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:48,760 Speaker 4: and pay the ticket. It's like done. But there's a 430 00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:51,760 Speaker 4: record right that has my name, my home address, the 431 00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:53,920 Speaker 4: then number of my car, probably my date of birth, 432 00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:58,919 Speaker 4: the information for my driver's license, plus my car, and 433 00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:01,000 Speaker 4: so that's a court record that would get sold. 434 00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:05,359 Speaker 1: We interviewed this woman, Sean A. Dillillo, who runs a 435 00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:09,080 Speaker 1: company called Brightlines, which specializes in scrubbing people's information off 436 00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:12,080 Speaker 1: the Internet when they become you know, run for office, 437 00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:15,480 Speaker 1: or you know, get targeted. And she talks about how 438 00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:18,359 Speaker 1: it's not cheap, the price point is high, and it 439 00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:21,640 Speaker 1: creates this situation where some people are able to take 440 00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:24,480 Speaker 1: the steps necessary to protect themselves, and it creates this 441 00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:29,200 Speaker 1: kind of permanent, vulnerable underclass that would never have that access. 442 00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:32,000 Speaker 1: And you know, we're talking about if you've ever had 443 00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:34,320 Speaker 1: a driver's license, if you've ever voted, if you've ever 444 00:28:34,359 --> 00:28:36,760 Speaker 1: turned on the heat or the water in an apartment, 445 00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:41,040 Speaker 1: odds are, unless you have taken great steps to prevent it, 446 00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:44,120 Speaker 1: your information is available for sale. That's just the reality. 447 00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:47,000 Speaker 1: It sus what it is, what it is. It should 448 00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:50,400 Speaker 1: not be that way, and you, Kimberly, should not have 449 00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:55,600 Speaker 1: to incur the pretty high personal cost of doing this 450 00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:57,680 Speaker 1: just to be able to do your job as a 451 00:28:57,720 --> 00:29:00,400 Speaker 1: cultural critic, Like we really have to take a step 452 00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:04,640 Speaker 1: back and wonder what kind of world like digital landscape 453 00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:07,400 Speaker 1: we want to have where some people can show up 454 00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:09,280 Speaker 1: safely if they have the money, and the rest of 455 00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:13,040 Speaker 1: everybody else is just vulnerable. That is who is that serving? 456 00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:18,800 Speaker 2: Absolutely, And I will say, you know, I feel a 457 00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:25,400 Speaker 2: responsibility as somebody who has not only a platform, but 458 00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:32,080 Speaker 2: access to resources a great social network, to do as 459 00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:37,760 Speaker 2: much as I can to make a very clear statement 460 00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:42,800 Speaker 2: that there are consequences, as I mentioned before, and I 461 00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:46,920 Speaker 2: am incredibly privileged. Even before this, I feel like I've 462 00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:50,680 Speaker 2: I spent a lot of time wrestling with those privileges 463 00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:56,720 Speaker 2: and trying to be of service, trying to extend myself, 464 00:29:56,880 --> 00:30:02,320 Speaker 2: trying to share what I have in a in a 465 00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:07,880 Speaker 2: thoughtful way, in a responsible way. And I'm only at 466 00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:14,280 Speaker 2: this point because of this, all of these gifts and 467 00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:18,760 Speaker 2: access and resources and things that frankly I did not 468 00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:25,480 Speaker 2: earn coming together and I feel, really, I feel very 469 00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:32,280 Speaker 2: resolute in the fact that what I am doing is 470 00:30:32,320 --> 00:30:35,600 Speaker 2: the right thing to do. You know, people say just 471 00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:38,000 Speaker 2: let it go, you know, like, okay, you're you're on 472 00:30:38,080 --> 00:30:40,640 Speaker 2: the other side of it. You have what you need 473 00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:45,960 Speaker 2: to get, you know, I have two phones. Now, You're good, 474 00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:50,160 Speaker 2: You're they nobody found you, just you. Nobody found your 475 00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:51,440 Speaker 2: new And I'm like. 476 00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:55,720 Speaker 5: No, I can't. I can't let it go because all of. 477 00:30:55,680 --> 00:30:58,840 Speaker 2: These people who've had to you know, they didn't have 478 00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:03,000 Speaker 2: any choices. So yes, I definitely feel that way. It also, 479 00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:07,280 Speaker 2: you know, not to way the you know, not to 480 00:31:07,280 --> 00:31:10,080 Speaker 2: get in my patriotic bag or anything like that. But 481 00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:13,920 Speaker 2: after having so many conversations with lawyers over the past 482 00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:15,200 Speaker 2: couple of weeks. 483 00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:15,960 Speaker 3: With. 484 00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:21,920 Speaker 2: Constitutional scholars, right, people who have like deeply studied this 485 00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:25,000 Speaker 2: stuff and had so many conversations about the First Amendment 486 00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:28,120 Speaker 2: and the rights and protections that we are afforded, not 487 00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:31,880 Speaker 2: only as citizens, but as somebody who does what I 488 00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:33,840 Speaker 2: do for a living, which is, you know, just talk 489 00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:38,239 Speaker 2: about things, hopefully in a responsible manner. And I do 490 00:31:38,280 --> 00:31:44,160 Speaker 2: think I'm very responsible. But a bedrock of our constitution, 491 00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:49,120 Speaker 2: a bedrock of our values as Americans, it's that we 492 00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:55,520 Speaker 2: can speak freely, and you speak freely and you don't 493 00:31:55,560 --> 00:32:03,440 Speaker 2: anticipate any legal kind of backlash. You know, you speak 494 00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:07,000 Speaker 2: freely and that does not give anybody the right to 495 00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:15,680 Speaker 2: threaten you or harm you. I expect when I say 496 00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:18,280 Speaker 2: whatever I want to say, people to go back and 497 00:32:18,280 --> 00:32:22,520 Speaker 2: forth I expect banter, and sometimes on Twitter that banter 498 00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:28,440 Speaker 2: can get a little get feisty. That's like, okay, we're feisty, we'resting. 499 00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:33,920 Speaker 2: I love a little witty rep Barte. I definitely did 500 00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:40,680 Speaker 2: not expect this level of an invasion of privacy or 501 00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:44,200 Speaker 2: this level of trauma, and I don't accept it. 502 00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:50,280 Speaker 1: So it's unacceptable, and I think you're right. I think 503 00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:54,520 Speaker 1: the point is the silencing effect. I think what it's 504 00:32:54,560 --> 00:32:56,680 Speaker 1: trying to do is to be is to make it 505 00:32:56,760 --> 00:33:02,320 Speaker 1: clear that negative cal critique of certain people will not 506 00:33:02,360 --> 00:33:04,560 Speaker 1: be tolerated. And if you do it, this is what's 507 00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:06,680 Speaker 1: going to happen to you. And I think it takes 508 00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:10,800 Speaker 1: a certain kind of person to say, no, I'm allowed 509 00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:13,800 Speaker 1: to do my job. I'm not going to accept this. 510 00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:16,600 Speaker 1: And I was talking earlier before you and I got 511 00:33:16,640 --> 00:33:18,480 Speaker 1: on about how excited I was to talk to you 512 00:33:18,520 --> 00:33:21,880 Speaker 1: because I think this could set an entire a real 513 00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:29,440 Speaker 1: digital precedent about how discourse works on today's Internet. I 514 00:33:29,480 --> 00:33:32,280 Speaker 1: think what you're doing, I think it's going to set 515 00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:34,800 Speaker 1: a really interesting precedent. I think it's going to like 516 00:33:35,120 --> 00:33:38,360 Speaker 1: this feels like legacy building stuff, Like I think people 517 00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:40,840 Speaker 1: will go back and be studying this in like media 518 00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:42,520 Speaker 1: and digital criticism courses. 519 00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:48,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm trying to write size this in my mind 520 00:33:48,200 --> 00:33:51,440 Speaker 2: because we're talking about. 521 00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:52,680 Speaker 3: S. 522 00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:57,560 Speaker 2: Pop culture commentary is what we're really talking about here. 523 00:33:57,640 --> 00:34:02,040 Speaker 2: But I agree with you Bridget. When I have talked 524 00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:09,040 Speaker 2: about what happened and the docsing and the threats of murder, 525 00:34:09,239 --> 00:34:15,960 Speaker 2: sexual assault, kidnapping, more than a few people, honestly, a 526 00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:19,440 Speaker 2: surprising number of people who I thought were relatively reasonable, 527 00:34:19,640 --> 00:34:22,200 Speaker 2: said well, if you knew that these people do that, 528 00:34:22,239 --> 00:34:24,360 Speaker 2: why would you even talk about that person? 529 00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:27,200 Speaker 5: I'm like, wait, what. 530 00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:39,040 Speaker 2: We're talking about a global superstar. We're talking about a 531 00:34:39,040 --> 00:34:43,960 Speaker 2: person who regularly releases music, a lot of the music 532 00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:47,960 Speaker 2: that I have said that I like and enjoy. A 533 00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:51,799 Speaker 2: person who less than a couple of weeks before this 534 00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:57,600 Speaker 2: thing happened was on the VMAs accepting the Video Vanguard 535 00:34:57,640 --> 00:35:01,719 Speaker 2: Award and doing a fifteen minute perform. I mean the 536 00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:07,360 Speaker 2: idea that if you know that this particular standum, this 537 00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:11,840 Speaker 2: span community is rapid, why would you say anything about 538 00:35:12,040 --> 00:35:18,359 Speaker 2: their person. It's just it makes absolutely no sense. And yes, 539 00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:24,360 Speaker 2: the idea that forever and ever, nobody and you know, again, 540 00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:29,600 Speaker 2: we're not I'm very aware of things that are happening 541 00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:33,680 Speaker 2: like globally, right, people's I mean literal lives are at 542 00:35:33,760 --> 00:35:37,279 Speaker 2: risk and their rights are being stripped. To me, even 543 00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:40,480 Speaker 2: in the United States right with what's happened. It's not 544 00:35:40,640 --> 00:35:46,640 Speaker 2: that I understand, it's not that, but it really is 545 00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:53,440 Speaker 2: an attempt to strike fear in people's hearts, right, Like 546 00:35:53,640 --> 00:35:59,880 Speaker 2: it's on this kind of micro scale. It is a 547 00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:05,080 Speaker 2: about fear and intimidation and you know the words you mentioned, 548 00:36:05,120 --> 00:36:09,600 Speaker 2: silencing and just like of the pettiest shit imaginable. But 549 00:36:09,719 --> 00:36:11,719 Speaker 2: also it's like really important. 550 00:36:12,640 --> 00:36:14,840 Speaker 5: It's really important also because. 551 00:36:16,920 --> 00:36:21,080 Speaker 2: Since this has happened, I've seen other I mean have 552 00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:27,320 Speaker 2: witnessed this happened to another pop culture YouTuber, but also 553 00:36:27,719 --> 00:36:34,840 Speaker 2: I have seen other writers and journalists and YouTubers podcasters 554 00:36:34,920 --> 00:36:40,080 Speaker 2: who have experienced similar things, not only from this fandom, 555 00:36:40,120 --> 00:36:44,200 Speaker 2: definitely from this s fandom, definitely from this fandom, but 556 00:36:44,280 --> 00:36:46,839 Speaker 2: from others as well. And eventually we got to say 557 00:36:46,920 --> 00:36:54,520 Speaker 2: enough is enough, Right, somebody's got to not necessarily punishment, 558 00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:57,840 Speaker 2: because that's not my orientation in the world. But I 559 00:36:57,880 --> 00:37:03,560 Speaker 2: am certainly about justice, and some times justice means consequences. 560 00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:07,920 Speaker 1: I'm with you, and I want to be clear, This 561 00:37:08,040 --> 00:37:10,799 Speaker 1: is me saying this, This is my opinion and my take. 562 00:37:11,880 --> 00:37:15,000 Speaker 1: I the reason why I think what you're doing is 563 00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:20,239 Speaker 1: so important is because I cannot ignore the ways that 564 00:37:20,280 --> 00:37:24,960 Speaker 1: I have seen the same kind of strategy creep into 565 00:37:25,000 --> 00:37:28,880 Speaker 1: our political landscape. And so, yeah, we're talking about Nicki Minaj, 566 00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:32,759 Speaker 1: a pop star, a celebrity. That's the meat of this 567 00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:35,840 Speaker 1: conversation that we're having, you and me. But I have 568 00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:39,120 Speaker 1: seen the way that the same strategy like it's It 569 00:37:39,160 --> 00:37:42,080 Speaker 1: reminds me a lot of how Trump used Trump used 570 00:37:42,120 --> 00:37:45,160 Speaker 1: social media, right, and so the way that the same 571 00:37:45,280 --> 00:37:49,879 Speaker 1: exact thing is creeping into our political discourse and becoming acceptable, 572 00:37:50,239 --> 00:37:52,480 Speaker 1: I see a lot of parallels, and I think that 573 00:37:52,560 --> 00:37:55,040 Speaker 1: we might be in a very different political and social 574 00:37:55,120 --> 00:37:57,719 Speaker 1: situation today in twenty twenty two if we had not 575 00:37:57,880 --> 00:38:01,080 Speaker 1: established a precedent that this was a acceptable way to 576 00:38:01,120 --> 00:38:07,320 Speaker 1: behave online. That if one powerful, big voiced figure gives 577 00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:11,160 Speaker 1: the right kind of wink wink, nod nod signal, they 578 00:38:11,160 --> 00:38:12,960 Speaker 1: don't come out and say it. They never come out 579 00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:15,200 Speaker 1: and say it. I'm being very clear about that, but 580 00:38:15,280 --> 00:38:18,080 Speaker 1: they might give the right kind of signals. The people 581 00:38:18,239 --> 00:38:22,640 Speaker 1: who are obsessively following that one figure know exactly what 582 00:38:22,680 --> 00:38:24,600 Speaker 1: to do, they know exactly how to coordinate, and it's 583 00:38:24,719 --> 00:38:27,360 Speaker 1: very effective. That is a precedent that I feel like 584 00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:30,320 Speaker 1: has become more and more acceptable in our online discourse. 585 00:38:30,480 --> 00:38:31,759 Speaker 1: And I think that we would be in a very 586 00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:36,520 Speaker 1: different political situation had somebody said, wait a minute, not acceptable. 587 00:38:36,719 --> 00:38:38,799 Speaker 1: And so I know that it might not seem like, 588 00:38:39,360 --> 00:38:41,640 Speaker 1: you know, it might seem like we're talking about celebrities 589 00:38:41,640 --> 00:38:44,080 Speaker 1: and pop culture and stands, but I think it's so 590 00:38:44,200 --> 00:38:47,160 Speaker 1: much deeper than that, and I think it really illustrates 591 00:38:47,160 --> 00:38:52,080 Speaker 1: something else going on politically, socially, and digitally in our culture. 592 00:38:52,120 --> 00:38:54,120 Speaker 1: And again, this is my opinion, This is me saying 593 00:38:54,120 --> 00:38:55,520 Speaker 1: that this is what I have witnessed. 594 00:38:56,840 --> 00:39:01,640 Speaker 2: Just to be clear, Yeah, exactly what you're saying. That 595 00:39:01,760 --> 00:39:10,719 Speaker 2: polarization is ubiquitous. It's everywhere, and it leaves us unable 596 00:39:10,960 --> 00:39:21,480 Speaker 2: to determine boundaries, you know, reasonable boundaries, and where we 597 00:39:21,520 --> 00:39:24,440 Speaker 2: will go and where we won't go, and what we 598 00:39:24,520 --> 00:39:26,400 Speaker 2: will do and what we won't do, and what we 599 00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:31,120 Speaker 2: should and shouldn't say. And that loss of the ability 600 00:39:31,160 --> 00:39:39,279 Speaker 2: to right size things in our minds, to assess responsible discourse, 601 00:39:41,160 --> 00:39:44,880 Speaker 2: it has really really dire consequences I have to say, 602 00:39:44,960 --> 00:39:48,319 Speaker 2: you know, jousts and jobs, you know, verbal jousts and. 603 00:39:48,360 --> 00:39:50,000 Speaker 5: Jobs I love, I live for. 604 00:39:53,160 --> 00:39:55,799 Speaker 2: I you know, I don't have a problem, you know, 605 00:39:55,840 --> 00:39:58,640 Speaker 2: going back and forth with people about why I don't 606 00:39:59,239 --> 00:40:01,759 Speaker 2: like somebody's me music, or why I disagree with their 607 00:40:01,800 --> 00:40:07,960 Speaker 2: actions and behaviors. But what this experience for me has 608 00:40:08,040 --> 00:40:12,960 Speaker 2: made clear. Over the past couple of weeks, I've done 609 00:40:12,960 --> 00:40:15,200 Speaker 2: a lot of reading and research, and so many different 610 00:40:15,200 --> 00:40:18,799 Speaker 2: people have brought all of these resources to me, and 611 00:40:19,200 --> 00:40:28,360 Speaker 2: books and podcasts and documentaries about fanatic violence, fan violence extremism, 612 00:40:29,640 --> 00:40:33,560 Speaker 2: and it's so clear that even when we're just talking 613 00:40:33,600 --> 00:40:37,560 Speaker 2: about something like a pop culture figure, that there is 614 00:40:37,600 --> 00:40:43,840 Speaker 2: so much opportunity for this stuff to escalate in ways 615 00:40:43,880 --> 00:40:54,400 Speaker 2: that are devastating, life changing, tragic. I feel incredibly traumatized 616 00:40:54,560 --> 00:41:01,400 Speaker 2: from the many days of harassment and abuse and threats 617 00:41:01,400 --> 00:41:04,799 Speaker 2: that I experienced, but there is so much more than 618 00:41:04,840 --> 00:41:10,160 Speaker 2: that at stake. People have been killed over fanatic violence. 619 00:41:10,160 --> 00:41:14,439 Speaker 2: I mean, even somebody recently brought up you know, John 620 00:41:14,520 --> 00:41:17,640 Speaker 2: Hinckley Junior. I was born in the eighties, so I 621 00:41:17,640 --> 00:41:20,799 Speaker 2: don't know people don't know this right, but you know, 622 00:41:20,880 --> 00:41:27,400 Speaker 2: the person who shot Ronald Draken right, and he was 623 00:41:27,440 --> 00:41:35,000 Speaker 2: like obsessed with Jody Jody Foster right. And yes, that 624 00:41:35,160 --> 00:41:38,960 Speaker 2: was decades ago, but there are so many examples of 625 00:41:39,640 --> 00:41:43,759 Speaker 2: people literally showing up literally, I mean, the fact that 626 00:41:43,960 --> 00:41:49,759 Speaker 2: my former address was circulating in that way caused me 627 00:41:49,840 --> 00:41:54,680 Speaker 2: such cause for concern because there have been numerous cases 628 00:41:54,760 --> 00:41:59,200 Speaker 2: of fans showing up at people's homes to defend the 629 00:41:59,320 --> 00:42:04,440 Speaker 2: honor of the person that they stand. The fact I 630 00:42:04,520 --> 00:42:07,560 Speaker 2: had to to share the threats with the FBI because 631 00:42:07,600 --> 00:42:12,759 Speaker 2: I know I live in Texas months after Uvaldi. I mean, like, 632 00:42:12,840 --> 00:42:13,880 Speaker 2: this stuff is real. 633 00:42:14,200 --> 00:42:14,880 Speaker 5: It's real. 634 00:42:15,200 --> 00:42:20,120 Speaker 2: People die, people are traumatized. Forever they're harmed, they have 635 00:42:20,200 --> 00:42:25,799 Speaker 2: to move. Fortunately I didn't have to move, but like 636 00:42:26,120 --> 00:42:29,120 Speaker 2: that stuff, I mean, people when some people are telling 637 00:42:29,160 --> 00:42:32,640 Speaker 2: me about their new photos getting leaked and then they 638 00:42:32,760 --> 00:42:37,080 Speaker 2: have to tell their parents or their job about these 639 00:42:37,120 --> 00:42:41,520 Speaker 2: images are circulating me about me online and you're never 640 00:42:41,560 --> 00:42:43,320 Speaker 2: going to be able to live that down. 641 00:42:44,200 --> 00:42:44,840 Speaker 1: That's real. 642 00:42:45,080 --> 00:42:52,400 Speaker 2: That's life changing stuff stuff. And I wish that the 643 00:42:52,480 --> 00:42:56,360 Speaker 2: people who hold this enormous influence and who recognize that 644 00:42:56,400 --> 00:43:00,880 Speaker 2: they hold this enormous influence because they understand how to 645 00:43:00,880 --> 00:43:03,640 Speaker 2: activate their fan base, and they're really intentional about doing 646 00:43:03,680 --> 00:43:07,120 Speaker 2: it for all kinds of reasons. I wish that they 647 00:43:07,120 --> 00:43:10,280 Speaker 2: would be much more cognizant of the fact that, yeah, 648 00:43:10,440 --> 00:43:11,040 Speaker 2: right now. 649 00:43:10,840 --> 00:43:11,399 Speaker 5: It's just. 650 00:43:13,960 --> 00:43:17,480 Speaker 2: You, ugly monkey bitch. I guess you're gonna have to 651 00:43:17,760 --> 00:43:19,719 Speaker 2: bleep this out, you know. And I also got all 652 00:43:19,840 --> 00:43:24,520 Speaker 2: kinds of slurs. Oh, I'm a black woman from Texas. 653 00:43:24,600 --> 00:43:28,040 Speaker 2: I've never had seen the inWORD directed in me hard 654 00:43:28,360 --> 00:43:34,560 Speaker 2: er that many times. Oh, it's crazy. Right now, it's 655 00:43:34,680 --> 00:43:37,239 Speaker 2: I'm going to I know where you live. I'm going 656 00:43:37,280 --> 00:43:40,440 Speaker 2: to kidnap you, I'm going to mutilate you. I'm gonna 657 00:43:41,239 --> 00:43:44,840 Speaker 2: pull put a bullet in your sibling's brain. But it 658 00:43:44,840 --> 00:43:55,560 Speaker 2: could easily be death or disfigurement or real physical bodily harm. 659 00:43:56,400 --> 00:44:03,239 Speaker 2: And not actively discouraging the people that you understand you 660 00:44:03,320 --> 00:44:08,560 Speaker 2: have all of this influence on. Not actively discouraging it 661 00:44:08,560 --> 00:44:15,719 Speaker 2: strikes me as not right. I'll say it's not right more. 662 00:44:15,760 --> 00:44:29,160 Speaker 3: After a quick break, let's get right back into it. 663 00:44:30,280 --> 00:44:34,759 Speaker 1: How do you think fandom and stand culture got so toxic? Like, 664 00:44:34,800 --> 00:44:37,400 Speaker 1: what do you think happened that got us here where 665 00:44:37,760 --> 00:44:40,680 Speaker 1: someone out of a love of a musician or a 666 00:44:40,719 --> 00:44:43,520 Speaker 1: public figure who they do not know, would behave in 667 00:44:43,560 --> 00:44:45,840 Speaker 1: this way because for me, and I think for most people, 668 00:44:46,400 --> 00:44:48,480 Speaker 1: there is not a person on this earth who was 669 00:44:48,520 --> 00:44:53,120 Speaker 1: not a blood relative to me that I would have 670 00:44:53,239 --> 00:44:56,560 Speaker 1: this kind of reaction about. Certainly not anybody that I 671 00:44:56,640 --> 00:44:59,239 Speaker 1: don't know. And so it seems like for some of 672 00:44:59,320 --> 00:45:02,200 Speaker 1: us is probably so difficult to even imagine what you're 673 00:45:02,239 --> 00:45:04,279 Speaker 1: going through. What do you think God is here? 674 00:45:04,400 --> 00:45:04,480 Speaker 3: Like? 675 00:45:04,520 --> 00:45:05,680 Speaker 1: How did we get here? 676 00:45:07,960 --> 00:45:15,319 Speaker 2: I think people are incredibly isolated. People are lonely. They're 677 00:45:15,360 --> 00:45:21,040 Speaker 2: looking for a community, and the way that you express 678 00:45:21,080 --> 00:45:26,360 Speaker 2: your fidelity to this particular community is by behaving in 679 00:45:26,600 --> 00:45:33,080 Speaker 2: very extreme ways. I think the pandemic exacerbated this, but 680 00:45:33,560 --> 00:45:37,120 Speaker 2: obviously it existed before that. You just brought up the 681 00:45:37,640 --> 00:45:43,359 Speaker 2: Donald Trump example. But I've learned a lot about the 682 00:45:43,400 --> 00:45:50,359 Speaker 2: way that these stand communities work, and it's almost like 683 00:45:50,400 --> 00:45:55,080 Speaker 2: they operate as like chosen families. 684 00:45:55,200 --> 00:45:55,440 Speaker 3: You know. 685 00:45:55,680 --> 00:46:00,319 Speaker 2: I don't want to misappropriate that language from the the 686 00:46:00,520 --> 00:46:05,200 Speaker 2: LGBTQ plus community, but it's like they support each other. 687 00:46:06,000 --> 00:46:09,160 Speaker 2: I mean, this is public, so I can say this. 688 00:46:10,760 --> 00:46:15,040 Speaker 2: I after I was tweeting about what happened to me, 689 00:46:16,200 --> 00:46:19,640 Speaker 2: I saw one of the stand accounts tweet to somebody 690 00:46:19,680 --> 00:46:23,319 Speaker 2: don't apologize to her, We'll raise money for you. If 691 00:46:23,360 --> 00:46:25,480 Speaker 2: you need a legal defense, We'll raise money for you. 692 00:46:25,520 --> 00:46:28,879 Speaker 2: Don't apologize to her, don't take it back, don't delete it. 693 00:46:28,920 --> 00:46:32,719 Speaker 2: And I was like, oh, y'all are really like there's 694 00:46:32,960 --> 00:46:35,360 Speaker 2: very much a feeling of we're in this together. 695 00:46:35,520 --> 00:46:39,080 Speaker 5: It's all of. 696 00:46:39,040 --> 00:46:42,400 Speaker 2: Us against the world, it's all of us against any 697 00:46:42,520 --> 00:46:45,759 Speaker 2: attack or outsider. And it just so happened that on 698 00:46:45,800 --> 00:46:50,239 Speaker 2: that Monday, I was the quote unquote threatening force. But yes, 699 00:46:50,320 --> 00:46:53,359 Speaker 2: that's how they mount up together. And I just think 700 00:46:53,440 --> 00:47:00,799 Speaker 2: that I'm sure that you've seen the new studies scholarship 701 00:47:00,880 --> 00:47:04,440 Speaker 2: about how just generally sad people are, you know, in 702 00:47:04,480 --> 00:47:08,799 Speaker 2: twenty twenty two, despite us seeming to have all of 703 00:47:08,840 --> 00:47:15,080 Speaker 2: these new means of connection, despite us being online all 704 00:47:15,200 --> 00:47:21,240 Speaker 2: day every day and the surveillance state expanding every second 705 00:47:21,280 --> 00:47:25,520 Speaker 2: of every day, people just do not have that many 706 00:47:25,800 --> 00:47:30,920 Speaker 2: deep intimate relationships, those connections that really ground us and 707 00:47:31,640 --> 00:47:35,799 Speaker 2: keep us mentally well. And I think that these kind 708 00:47:35,800 --> 00:47:40,680 Speaker 2: of banned communities, these obsessive communities, are a byproduct of 709 00:47:42,080 --> 00:47:47,720 Speaker 2: our culture in the United States, and honestly, globally, we're 710 00:47:47,080 --> 00:47:52,919 Speaker 2: just we're just not dealing with these these technological evolutions 711 00:47:52,960 --> 00:47:53,560 Speaker 2: the way. 712 00:47:53,360 --> 00:47:57,000 Speaker 5: That we thought we would. It's just. 713 00:48:00,239 --> 00:48:04,000 Speaker 2: I have realized over the past few years, especially since 714 00:48:04,040 --> 00:48:11,960 Speaker 2: the pandemic, that my IRL community, my family, the new 715 00:48:11,960 --> 00:48:14,600 Speaker 2: friends that I've made, the old friends that I've had, 716 00:48:14,880 --> 00:48:20,720 Speaker 2: romantic relationships, that is what sustains me. I love my job, 717 00:48:20,840 --> 00:48:26,440 Speaker 2: I love the building community. Digitally, it saved my life 718 00:48:26,440 --> 00:48:29,839 Speaker 2: in a really bad time. But I got to see 719 00:48:29,880 --> 00:48:33,080 Speaker 2: people and hug them and look them in the eyes 720 00:48:33,280 --> 00:48:37,000 Speaker 2: and share a meal with them. That is what brings 721 00:48:37,000 --> 00:48:41,279 Speaker 2: me the most joy. And I think I realize that's 722 00:48:41,280 --> 00:48:45,160 Speaker 2: an incredible privilege that I don't take for granted, and 723 00:48:45,200 --> 00:48:47,000 Speaker 2: a lot of people are not privileged in that way. 724 00:48:48,160 --> 00:48:51,200 Speaker 1: Wow, what empathy I have to I'm reminded of this 725 00:48:51,280 --> 00:48:54,400 Speaker 1: Janelle Mona quote. We come in peace, but we mean business. 726 00:48:54,440 --> 00:48:58,080 Speaker 1: You're like, I'm looking for justice, but I have empathy, Like, 727 00:48:58,840 --> 00:49:00,160 Speaker 1: I don't know if I would be able to to 728 00:49:00,200 --> 00:49:06,240 Speaker 1: be capable of the kind of empathetic assessment of what's 729 00:49:06,280 --> 00:49:09,000 Speaker 1: happening emotionally with some of these people. The way that 730 00:49:09,040 --> 00:49:11,080 Speaker 1: you are, I think that really speaks to your characters. 731 00:49:12,040 --> 00:49:19,840 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, and I'll say you can find that community 732 00:49:20,520 --> 00:49:26,760 Speaker 2: and find joy in being able to use that community 733 00:49:27,000 --> 00:49:34,640 Speaker 2: to exercise violent expressions of power, right Like I think 734 00:49:34,680 --> 00:49:38,600 Speaker 2: that the communities that we are able to build and 735 00:49:38,719 --> 00:49:43,160 Speaker 2: take part in, we are empowered by them. We feel 736 00:49:43,239 --> 00:49:47,480 Speaker 2: power within them, and that guides so many of our actions. 737 00:49:48,160 --> 00:49:51,400 Speaker 2: And some of those actions are good, positive actions, and 738 00:49:51,480 --> 00:50:00,440 Speaker 2: some of them are objectively, I let's say, objectively, them 739 00:50:00,600 --> 00:50:08,719 Speaker 2: are potentially very harmful. And I think that people are 740 00:50:08,840 --> 00:50:14,279 Speaker 2: using the communities that they've built for negative, negative ends, 741 00:50:14,280 --> 00:50:17,440 Speaker 2: and I definitely do not. I do not have empathy 742 00:50:17,480 --> 00:50:20,880 Speaker 2: for that whatsoever. I can empathize with what draws you 743 00:50:20,920 --> 00:50:25,680 Speaker 2: to a community, but I do not empathize or understand 744 00:50:25,920 --> 00:50:32,520 Speaker 2: at all the desire to rally around abuse and threats 745 00:50:32,640 --> 00:50:36,719 Speaker 2: and harassment. And yes, Janelle Money, one hundred percent right, 746 00:50:37,320 --> 00:50:42,920 Speaker 2: My natural orientation in the world is empathy. That guides 747 00:50:42,960 --> 00:50:46,920 Speaker 2: my politics. I believe in grace. My dad died when 748 00:50:46,920 --> 00:50:49,640 Speaker 2: he was fifty, but before he died, he said, the 749 00:50:49,719 --> 00:50:53,919 Speaker 2: only thing you can't come back from his death. And 750 00:50:54,600 --> 00:50:59,360 Speaker 2: I believe that you make mistakes and you do bad things, 751 00:51:00,120 --> 00:51:04,600 Speaker 2: you hurt people, and then you do whatever you can 752 00:51:04,760 --> 00:51:10,200 Speaker 2: to make it right. You invest yourself in repairing harm 753 00:51:10,480 --> 00:51:15,359 Speaker 2: and making amends and explaining to your community why what 754 00:51:15,440 --> 00:51:17,560 Speaker 2: you did was wrong and why you shouldn't do that 755 00:51:17,600 --> 00:51:20,440 Speaker 2: in the future. And I think that the people who 756 00:51:20,520 --> 00:51:27,560 Speaker 2: participated in this against me, this organized campaign of abuse 757 00:51:27,600 --> 00:51:30,799 Speaker 2: and harassment, I don't think they have to suffer for 758 00:51:30,840 --> 00:51:31,920 Speaker 2: the rest of their lives. 759 00:51:32,480 --> 00:51:35,000 Speaker 1: I don't want to ruin somebody's life forever. 760 00:51:35,040 --> 00:51:38,080 Speaker 2: I don't want to make sure you can never rent 761 00:51:38,239 --> 00:51:40,759 Speaker 2: an apartment, or that you can never buy a car, 762 00:51:41,000 --> 00:51:43,920 Speaker 2: you can't get into college, or that your children have 763 00:51:44,040 --> 00:51:48,759 Speaker 2: to suffer. That's not my aim. But my aim is 764 00:51:48,800 --> 00:51:55,200 Speaker 2: to My aim is to encourage people to invest in 765 00:51:55,239 --> 00:51:59,839 Speaker 2: the things that I believe in, which is you cause 766 00:52:00,400 --> 00:52:01,280 Speaker 2: you make it right. 767 00:52:03,480 --> 00:52:07,720 Speaker 1: Words to live by. That is a good motto, Kimberly, 768 00:52:08,200 --> 00:52:10,359 Speaker 1: How can folks support you? 769 00:52:10,480 --> 00:52:10,719 Speaker 3: Like? Is? 770 00:52:10,800 --> 00:52:13,040 Speaker 1: Are there ways that people can support you in what 771 00:52:13,120 --> 00:52:14,399 Speaker 1: you're going through right now? 772 00:52:15,400 --> 00:52:19,240 Speaker 2: Yeah? I do have a go fund Me, which I 773 00:52:19,280 --> 00:52:22,640 Speaker 2: went back and forth a long time about, but after 774 00:52:22,920 --> 00:52:27,120 Speaker 2: maybe about a dozen people asking how they could support, 775 00:52:27,320 --> 00:52:29,480 Speaker 2: I did set up the go fund me. And now 776 00:52:29,560 --> 00:52:34,759 Speaker 2: I am just so incredibly grateful for the now one 777 00:52:34,840 --> 00:52:38,920 Speaker 2: hundred people who have donated to the go fund me 778 00:52:39,239 --> 00:52:44,160 Speaker 2: to help pay for lawyers. Oh my goodness, I did 779 00:52:44,200 --> 00:52:44,719 Speaker 2: not know. 780 00:52:44,719 --> 00:52:47,359 Speaker 5: How I mean. I guess I knew, but I didn't. 781 00:52:47,040 --> 00:52:52,359 Speaker 2: Really know how expensive retaining lawyers is and investigators, and 782 00:52:53,040 --> 00:52:54,319 Speaker 2: oh I've already. 783 00:52:54,040 --> 00:52:56,600 Speaker 5: Spent thousands of dollars, So. 784 00:52:57,280 --> 00:53:01,360 Speaker 2: I appreciate everybody who was given to that. You can 785 00:53:01,719 --> 00:53:05,080 Speaker 2: follow me on social media. I actually am not going 786 00:53:05,200 --> 00:53:08,080 Speaker 2: to be tweeting about it as much anymore since things 787 00:53:08,239 --> 00:53:12,280 Speaker 2: are rolling and uh my counsel has said, you gotta 788 00:53:12,560 --> 00:53:15,600 Speaker 2: you gotta real it in and it's like, okay, you're right, 789 00:53:16,360 --> 00:53:18,480 Speaker 2: we are right. We'll set this aside for a second. 790 00:53:18,560 --> 00:53:21,760 Speaker 2: But yeah, if you're if you're interested in supporting the cause, 791 00:53:22,200 --> 00:53:26,040 Speaker 2: I definitely welcome anybody who you know, can spare a 792 00:53:26,040 --> 00:53:30,160 Speaker 2: couple of dollars. You don't have to uh support sharing 793 00:53:30,200 --> 00:53:36,680 Speaker 2: the story, talking about it, advocating on behalf of other 794 00:53:36,760 --> 00:53:39,560 Speaker 2: people who have experienced that. That is enough for me. 795 00:53:40,880 --> 00:53:44,279 Speaker 2: I'm gonna be okay, I am. I have such a 796 00:53:44,320 --> 00:53:47,000 Speaker 2: great support system and I'm so grateful. I have such 797 00:53:47,080 --> 00:53:50,120 Speaker 2: great networks, and I could not thank them enough. I 798 00:53:50,160 --> 00:53:53,239 Speaker 2: would not be here if not for them. But if 799 00:53:53,280 --> 00:53:56,759 Speaker 2: you see this happening to somebody else, please reach out 800 00:53:56,800 --> 00:53:59,440 Speaker 2: to them, support them, help them in the ways that 801 00:53:59,520 --> 00:54:02,880 Speaker 2: you know how Wow, because most people aren't me. 802 00:54:07,800 --> 00:54:09,800 Speaker 1: Got a story about an interesting thing in tech, or 803 00:54:09,920 --> 00:54:11,759 Speaker 1: just want to say hi? You can read us at 804 00:54:11,800 --> 00:54:14,520 Speaker 1: Hello at tangody dot com. You can also find transcripts 805 00:54:14,520 --> 00:54:16,960 Speaker 1: for today's episode at tengody dot com. There Are No 806 00:54:17,040 --> 00:54:19,080 Speaker 1: Girls on the Internet was created by me Bridget Todd. 807 00:54:19,480 --> 00:54:22,840 Speaker 1: It's a production of iHeartRadio and Unbossed creative. Jonathan Stricklet 808 00:54:22,960 --> 00:54:25,680 Speaker 1: is our executive producer. Tari Harrison is our producer and 809 00:54:25,719 --> 00:54:29,479 Speaker 1: sound engineer. Michael Almado is our contributing producer. I'm your host, 810 00:54:29,520 --> 00:54:32,279 Speaker 1: Bridget Todd. If you want to help us grow, rate 811 00:54:32,360 --> 00:54:32,920 Speaker 1: and review. 812 00:54:32,760 --> 00:54:33,879 Speaker 3: Us on Apple Podcasts. 813 00:54:34,560 --> 00:54:37,399 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, check out the iHeartRadio app, 814 00:54:37,400 --> 00:54:50,560 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.