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Speaker 1: You're listening to a new segment of Dear Chelsea.

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Speaker 2: Call it Couple's Counseling with Chelsea, where we do couples

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Speaker 2: counseling on all sorts of variations of friends, lovers, families.

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Speaker 2: I'm here with my friends Jenny Mullen and Jason Biggs,

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Speaker 2: and we are going to do some couples counseling. Welcome

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Speaker 2: to my office. Okay, Jason, I want to talk to

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Speaker 2: you about your packing and your neurosis. So you guys

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Speaker 2: travel a lot. You travel a lot with the kids.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, is great.

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Speaker 2: The kids speak German because Jenny speaks German. That's also great. Jason,

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Speaker 2: are you speaking German yet?

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Speaker 3: Nine?

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Speaker 1: Okay, So in.

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Speaker 4: Little he understands a lot.

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Speaker 1: It's creepy you would understand a lot. You guys have

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Speaker 1: been there a lot.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, he understands way too much. It's no longer the

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Speaker 4: secret thing I had with the boys. Now he understands

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Speaker 4: when we're talking about him, which.

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Speaker 3: But also the context is still kid conversations. I mean,

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Speaker 3: obviously they are fluent and so it has gotten more

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Speaker 3: advanced over the years. They can understand pretty much everything.

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Speaker 4: But sometimes I'll say to Sid, like stop asking him

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Speaker 4: like I need to go take him aside and bring

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Speaker 4: it up so that it's his idea, Like stop asking

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Speaker 4: him right.

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Speaker 1: Now, you know.

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Speaker 4: I'll say that in front to Sid and Jason will understand.

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Speaker 1: What are you triangulating your whole family aied front?

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Speaker 3: You, Chelsea, you just touched on one of the most

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Speaker 3: important issues in our relationships.

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Speaker 4: Sometimes I Sid wants something back from Jason. I'm like,

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Speaker 4: you can't keep bringing it up right now. I need

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Speaker 4: to talk to Daddy. Will decide if you can have

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Speaker 4: fortnite first, and then we can present it in a

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Speaker 4: different way, Like if you're going to keep asking him

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Speaker 4: right now, you're not going to get a different answer. Yeah, right,

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Speaker 4: And so I will kind of say that to Sid

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Speaker 4: to kind of nudge him, like, shut the fuck up

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Speaker 4: right now. You're digging a hole.

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Speaker 2: Right, Okay, But that means you're all you're playing both sides.

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Speaker 2: You're playing a little You want to be friends with

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Speaker 2: Sid and you want to be the one trusts sometimes

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Speaker 2: and then and then you're making him into the bad guy.

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Speaker 2: And I would expect nothing less.

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Speaker 4: From you, thank you, Oh my god.

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Speaker 2: And yeah, I would watch your back Jason, if you

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Speaker 2: aren't already watching your back watching.

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Speaker 5: Believe me, this comes up in real couple therapy.

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Speaker 1: I don't know why you're intimating that this is.

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Speaker 5: Not really Sorry, Sorry are other couples?

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Speaker 1: Thank you? It's all I have to say is last night, Jason.

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Speaker 4: I'm sorry I'm cutting you off, but I just you

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Speaker 4: have to hear this because you don't know this.

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Speaker 1: I mean you might have heard this last night. Well

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Speaker 1: I probably was covered underneath a bunch of pillows, okay.

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Speaker 4: You. Jason came in because he's like mother hen like again, neurotic,

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Speaker 4: fixing everything. And he comes in to turn on the

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Speaker 4: air purifier in our room and Sid.

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Speaker 3: Because I lower it during the day to a low

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Speaker 3: level and then at night before they go to bed,

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Speaker 3: I knock it up one as white noise slash purifications.

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Speaker 4: Sid was about to go to sleep and he was

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Speaker 4: literally just like almost out and Jason comes in in.

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Speaker 5: His not frantic, he was very quiet.

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Speaker 4: No, he was frustrated, okay, And Jason's like, well, I'm

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Speaker 4: just turning up the air so that it drowns out

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Speaker 4: all the sound. And it turns to me.

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Speaker 1: He goes, Mom, are re.

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Speaker 5: Okay with this? I did hear? I did hear?

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Speaker 1: Did you say that in English or in German English.

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Speaker 2: Have I died? So?

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Speaker 1: Jason, back to your packing, what do you think is

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Speaker 1: wrong with you? Do you have to pack?

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Speaker 4: What?

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Speaker 2: Two weeks in advance, because otherwise you'll flip your lid

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Speaker 2: if you're not ready to go?

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Speaker 5: Not that far.

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Speaker 3: I've I've shortened the window to be sure, but it's

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Speaker 3: I need to be prepared, certainly minimum the day before.

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Speaker 3: I mean everything needs to because also it's not just

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Speaker 3: myself that I'm packing, it's the boys, and it's basically

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Speaker 3: repacking Jenny when she's and by the way, she's not

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Speaker 3: even packing now at this point. She's kind of given

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Speaker 3: it up and now given up. The nanny packs like

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Speaker 3: smoking given off, but still she if the nanny hasn't

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Speaker 3: packed her.

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Speaker 2: Given up, I also have given up packing.

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Speaker 3: I'm sure it's control issue, it's OCD, it's all it's

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Speaker 3: all the things that track for me and my personality.

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Speaker 3: But it's like I can't. First of all, I need

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Speaker 3: to take advantage of the space, and I need to

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Speaker 3: so needs to be.

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Speaker 4: Space military role.

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Speaker 1: And it's very true that you can fit a lot more.

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Speaker 5: In your way more way way unless it's.

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Speaker 1: A sweater, don't roll your sweaters. That actually takes up more.

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Speaker 5: Exactly you fold your sweaters. That's exactly right.

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Speaker 2: Sweatshirts otherwise known as suda there as an Espanol.

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Speaker 1: Now, so that's controlling or OCD, right, is.

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Speaker 3: That it's a touch of all of that. I think

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Speaker 3: it's control issue. I think it's o CD. I don't

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Speaker 3: know what else that would fall under. But it's also

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Speaker 3: like there is that mother hen it's not just about me.

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Speaker 3: There is a sort of need to make sure the

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Speaker 3: family is so everything needs to go like whatever I

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Speaker 3: can control in terms of travel, because so much can

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Speaker 3: go wrong and does go wrong and is out of

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Speaker 3: your control that whatever is possibly in my control, I

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Speaker 3: want to make sure it goes smoothly.

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Speaker 5: And so that means and so that.

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Speaker 2: Means, yeah, we'd like to say one more time that

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Speaker 2: Jason is not Jewish.

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Speaker 3: So that means I'm not walking around with a checklist,

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Speaker 3: but I am. In my mind, I've got a checklist,

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Speaker 3: like are the boys medicines's kids tiling?

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Speaker 5: All kids? This kids too medicated? You know? Are they

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Speaker 5: drug yes? Traveling? You know?

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Speaker 3: Do we charge everything downloaded iPhone's charge? Are the movies

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Speaker 3: downloaded on their iPads are because this is also also

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Speaker 3: I'll say this, I'll say that not only and Jenny

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Speaker 3: might have a counterpoint to this, which I'm curious to hear.

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Speaker 3: But I think it's not just that I feel I

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Speaker 3: need to do it because of my own personal impulses

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Speaker 3: and my own personal deficiencies mentally, but I also feel

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Speaker 3: like it's a reaction to the fact that I'm getting

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Speaker 3: no help on this side. There is zero Like if

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Speaker 3: I had a partner who was also like, there's not

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Speaker 3: room for.

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Speaker 4: Two of us. I've actually like he's enabled me to

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Speaker 4: be we don't know that.

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Speaker 5: We don't know that. You like he's your assistant, Well,

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Speaker 5: never know that because there aren't you.

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Speaker 4: Yes, because because during the pandemic, he's like, I've never

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Speaker 4: seen you use a broom, I've never seen you do

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Speaker 4: these I've never seen you loaded dishrush shore. And I

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Speaker 4: said to him, when I lived alone, who do you

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Speaker 4: think did all this stuff? But now when I when

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Speaker 4: I we paired up, it's like he's enabled me to

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Speaker 4: like not like put.

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Speaker 5: A paper on the rack. My belief that there was

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Speaker 5: never mother.

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Speaker 2: Hands, you were always looking for someone to offload your packing,

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Speaker 2: Isn't that true? You were always looking for some sort

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Speaker 2: of dynamic, whether it was Jason or nanny or maybe

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Speaker 2: even your own children. Like if someone else could do

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Speaker 2: it for you.

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Speaker 5: A hundred could delegate things.

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Speaker 4: I mean, when I first got said from the store,

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Speaker 4: from the store and I had I had a nanny,

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Speaker 4: I realized, whoa, this is ideal. This is what I've

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Speaker 4: always knew, of course, but I think before, before I

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Speaker 4: was with you, I mean, I did all these things.

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Speaker 4: I mean sometimes, yes, like instead of washing the dishes

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Speaker 4: and just throw them away exactly exactly most of the

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Speaker 4: time I had to.

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Speaker 5: And you had roommates that took the trash out, like

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Speaker 5: you know, I.

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Speaker 4: Lived alone, Jason, I lived alone.

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Speaker 5: She did take the trash out the other night, first

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Speaker 5: time I've ever seen her do it.

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Speaker 3: Trash downs, no, of course not no. We have a

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Speaker 3: trash shoot in the hallway right across. But hold on,

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Speaker 3: but here's the best there. It couldn't be an easier

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Speaker 3: task given our building and the trash shooting across the

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Speaker 3: hall like it is so so easy.

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Speaker 5: You're really getting on me now, and I come back

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Speaker 5: in the apartment.

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Speaker 1: We're here for.

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Speaker 4: The one thing that I did something great, and you're

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Speaker 4: gonna talk about it.

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Speaker 5: Well, I think this is funny.

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Speaker 1: Hold on, you did not do something great?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 1: The throwing trash out into a shoot is like what

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Speaker 1: I would say to someone if they But she's gonna,

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Speaker 1: did you do anything today? I like, you, bet?

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Speaker 2: I did?

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Speaker 1: You fucking bet I did.

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Speaker 5: But that's her.

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Speaker 3: She's like, what do you mean I took out the

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Speaker 3: trash today? Don't even get on me about this, this, this,

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Speaker 3: and this. It's like, uh, okay anyway. But she didn't

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Speaker 3: even complete the task because I came back in. I like,

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Speaker 3: had some trash and I go, I opened the trash

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Speaker 3: can and I throw it in the trash and I realized,

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Speaker 3: I go.

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Speaker 5: There's a fucking bag in the trash.

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Speaker 3: I go, Jenny, You know when you take the trash out,

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Speaker 3: there is another step in the process. You have to

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Speaker 3: put a new bag in the cant Oh okay, she

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Speaker 3: was a lost gone into space something else.

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Speaker 2: You was thinking, right, what about the cooking at your house?

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Speaker 2: Who's in charge of that?

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Speaker 1: You do a lot of cooking, Yeah, because you do

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Speaker 1: your dictator lunch.

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Speaker 2: Yes, And what about you cook too, though, Jason, don't

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Speaker 2: you who's who's holding the fort down?

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Speaker 1: On that.

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Speaker 4: I usually do the cooking for the kids, and then

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Speaker 4: Jason will do like a weekend pasta and.

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Speaker 5: Roast a chicken.

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Speaker 2: Right, because you can only eat like two things, right

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Speaker 2: because of your situation?

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Speaker 1: Or have you been able to eat more nuts?

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Speaker 4: I mean I don't. Yeah, I eat more things. I

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Speaker 4: guess you love you really just love I love a

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Speaker 4: fucking nuts.

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Speaker 1: I've never seen anyone eat nuts.

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Speaker 2: You actually turn into a squirrel when I squirrel out

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Speaker 2: Sophie my friend also you you guys know she fucking

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Speaker 2: loves nuts too.

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Speaker 1: What kind of you guys have made me so turned

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Speaker 1: off by nuts that I can't even eat them anymore.

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Speaker 5: But it's not even like good nuts, like a roasted peanuts.

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Speaker 5: It's like a tiger nut with me.

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Speaker 2: And then Jenny eats it and she can somehow take

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Speaker 2: like fourteen bites have one.

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Speaker 3: Peanut, and then and then because this is yeah, and

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Speaker 3: then yeah, and then because this is healthy, she'll leave

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Speaker 3: like a half a bite and then put that aside

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Speaker 3: and be like, Okay, that's I didn't eat the whole thing.

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Speaker 1: So and then who cleans up after you? Guys?

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Speaker 5: Oh my god, are you kidding me to? This is

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Speaker 5: fucking this bad.

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Speaker 1: I knew the answer to before I asked him.

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Speaker 5: This is truly for me.

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Speaker 4: I can't wait for Jason to listen to this back

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Speaker 4: and be like, WHOA.

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Speaker 3: I really really was hard on her.

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Speaker 2: So I think he's just exposing you, you know what,

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Speaker 2: for what we all know to be true. I mean,

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Speaker 2: some people are very good at a certain group of things.

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Speaker 1: I'm with you. I can't do anything.

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Speaker 2: My dog Pete in the house the other day and

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Speaker 2: I waited for someone to arrive because.

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Speaker 1: I didn't know what what. I was like, these are

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Speaker 1: wood floors.

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Speaker 2: I don't know what to use is it's just regular

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Speaker 2: And I was like, you know what, it's better just

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Speaker 2: back away.

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Speaker 5: Someone's I will make this worse. Yeah, ROLLI.

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Speaker 2: He's like, you know, you can just use paper towel,

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Speaker 2: and I'm like, I don't think that's right.

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Speaker 1: So you're doing all the cleaning.

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Speaker 2: And then when you guys argue, do you have is

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Speaker 2: it okay for you to argue in front of the

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Speaker 2: kids or do you try to keep it away from

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Speaker 2: the kids.

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Speaker 1: I feel like you guys probably just argue in front

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Speaker 1: of the kids.

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Speaker 4: We bicker in front of the kids. I don't know,

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Speaker 4: do we argue in front of the kids. Some sid

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Speaker 4: would be like, oh, my parents are always fighting. You know.

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Speaker 4: It's like, but he has an idea. He's so fucking

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Speaker 4: like privileged and like, you know, I said him one night,

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Speaker 4: I was like, yeah, I'm putting in your room and

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Speaker 4: you're going to sleep by yourself, and he screams into

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Speaker 4: the hallway. You would do that to an innocent child,

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Speaker 4: you know. So it's like his version of reality, yes,

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Speaker 4: is just so far off, Like he doesn't understand when

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Speaker 4: we bicker even you know, he's like, oh.

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Speaker 5: Here they go again.

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Speaker 4: It's right, you have no idea, but it lands.

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Speaker 3: I guess it's a good sign because we don't. I mean,

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Speaker 3: the house I grew up in was constant fighting, operatic, loud,

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Speaker 3: always screaming and stuff.

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Speaker 5: So that was the one. And Jenny grew up in

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Speaker 5: a house where they just didn't they ran.

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Speaker 3: Right, which is also not new people always new people, Yeah, exactly,

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Speaker 3: they flee and start a new thing, like there wasn't

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Speaker 3: fighting because they wasn't around long enough to fight, which

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Speaker 3: is also not healthy. We grew up in the opposite end.

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Speaker 3: The healthy thing is like, yeah, couples that love each

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Speaker 3: other get into disagreements, there is bickering, there are fights.

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Speaker 3: Sometimes we do our best. We do maybe and maybe

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Speaker 3: I can do better. Maybe we can do better. I

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Speaker 3: know I can do better. Because of the two of us,

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Speaker 3: I will be the one that will get louder, quicker

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Speaker 3: for sure, and I have a harder time. Jenny, because

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Speaker 3: of her family of origin, can be like, all right,

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Speaker 3: I'm out, Like can leave and just be like we're

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Speaker 3: not doing this now, whereas I'm like, what, no, I

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Speaker 3: need resolution.

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Speaker 5: This feels like abandonment. I can't. I need to fix this.

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Speaker 5: Stay in a fight.

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Speaker 3: I'll stay in a fight, ironically in the hopes of

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Speaker 3: ending the fight, whereas Jenny will just leave the fight

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Speaker 3: in the hopes of ending the fight.

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Speaker 5: But that actually triggers me more.

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Speaker 3: It's it's that's part of our many dances that we

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Speaker 3: do where we do trigger each other, but we do

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Speaker 3: our best to not do it in front of the kids. Jenny,

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Speaker 3: for a long time, even the bickering, because again she

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Speaker 3: did not grow up with bickering or any any type

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Speaker 3: of fighting, was like we you know, we'd be in

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Speaker 3: couples therapy and she'd be like and he just we

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Speaker 3: were fighting, screaming in front and I was like, well, Jenny,

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Speaker 3: hold on, we have done that. But the fight you're

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Speaker 3: referring to was literally us just disagreeing in like her

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Speaker 3: definition of what a fight was in front of the

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Speaker 3: kids has changed as her as like she's I believe

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Speaker 3: in my speaking out of turn. You've realize like, oh, yeah,

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Speaker 3: this happens, this is okay, and some of it is

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Speaker 3: okay to happen in front of the kids.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I think you're right. I think that's right.

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Speaker 2: Like, who doesn't have disagreement, it's scarier if there isn't anything,

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Speaker 2: well then yeah, then it's like you're describing your childhood right,

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Speaker 2: your family dynamic. But the good thing is that Jason

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Speaker 2: has been to so much therapy so that he's a

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Speaker 2: willing participant in actually resolution and conflict, like dealing with conflict,

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Speaker 2: not conflict avoidant, because conflict avoiding doesn't get anybody anywhere.

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Speaker 2: And we'll be back with this worry about when Jenny

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Speaker 2: and Jason went scuba diving and she left Jason for dead.

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Speaker 2: You can check out Jenny mull and substack The Best

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Speaker 2: Friend Experience and her new side hustle The Shirts Off

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Speaker 2: My Back, where you can buy fabulous vintage clothes, and

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Speaker 2: you can also check out Jenny and Jason co hosting

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Speaker 2: Dinner in a Movie on TBS