Speaker 1: Diversion Podcasts. This is Stephen Talty. I wanted to let
Speaker 1: you know about something we're trying. We've set up an
Speaker 1: email address for listeners to send us your questions about
Speaker 1: the show. Are you curious about something you've heard on
Speaker 1: Hunting the Butcher and want to know more? Is there
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Speaker 1: The voice memos app on iPhone works well. Include your
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Speaker 1: email address is Hunting the Butcher at Diversion Podcasts dot com.
Speaker 1: That's podcasts plural with an S at the end. I'm
Speaker 1: looking forward to hearing your questions. Thanks now on with
Speaker 1: the show. This episode contains descriptions of graphic violence and
Speaker 1: scenes of genocide. Listener's discretion is advised by the winter
Speaker 1: of the mission was coming into focus. Use if you
Speaker 1: reeve had chosen this killed team. They were training under
Speaker 1: the Crabmaga master Emi Lichtenfeld for hours at a time.
Speaker 1: They grunted and kicked and practiced the blow that would
Speaker 1: bring a butcher to his knees. They were the same
Speaker 1: moves that Lichtenfeld had used on Nazi thugs in Hungary.
Speaker 1: The team was confident they would work on Herbert Suckers
Speaker 1: in Brazil. Mio continued to meet with Suckers, trying to
Speaker 1: stoke suckers excitement for his coming wealth and make sure
Speaker 1: he'd be willing to travel somewhere outside of Brazil with
Speaker 1: kunz La. They would go to a restaurant in Kunzla
Speaker 1: would paint a picture deals. Money. Success was all on
Speaker 1: the horizon, he told Suckers. He was getting excited about
Speaker 1: the prospects for tourism in Brazil. So were his partners
Speaker 1: back in Austria. In fact, they were so excited that
Speaker 1: they had encouraged him to look at other countries too.
Speaker 1: What about Chili or Uruguay? Both were up and coming
Speaker 1: in the tourist trade. There were millions to be made.
Speaker 1: Why restrict themselves to Brazil? Zukers was getting excited. He
Speaker 1: needed the money, but more importantly, after being a pariah
Speaker 1: for years, he needed the encouragement that this high roller
Speaker 1: gave him. Neo had sensed almost from the minute he
Speaker 1: met Sukers that the guy was a narcissist, but not
Speaker 1: an ordinary one. Yes, Suckers had been a solo act
Speaker 1: back in the nineteen thirties when he made headlines as
Speaker 1: an aviator, but as he got older, it turned out
Speaker 1: he didn't have to be in the lead role all
Speaker 1: the time. In fact, there's evidence that Suckers sought out
Speaker 1: strong men that he could follow, and it happened in Latvia,
Speaker 1: where he joined a commando unit run by a handsome,
Speaker 1: hard driving killer named Victor Raj. Raj was the leader,
Speaker 1: Zukers the second in command, and now it was happening
Speaker 1: with Kunsla. The truth was that Mia wasn't a leader either,
Speaker 1: not in real life. As I've talked about it was
Speaker 1: a bit of a loner. He lacked confidence, he didn't
Speaker 1: command room. The leaders from ASSAD were pretty sharp judges
Speaker 1: of character. When they promoted one of their agents and
Speaker 1: gave them their own unit, it showed they'd seen something
Speaker 1: in that man. He could be a boss, he could
Speaker 1: motivate man. So far, no one had seen that in Mio.
Speaker 1: Massad knew he was a kind of genius at going undercover,
Speaker 1: but they never offered him his own unit. Me understood why,
Speaker 1: and it's stun so. Maybe that's why he understood Suckers
Speaker 1: so well. In a way, they were alike. They shared
Speaker 1: that same frustration. They've never gotten their do in life.
Speaker 1: I want to be clear, I'm speculating here. Meo never
Speaker 1: talked about this. He never said I felt the butcher's pain.
Speaker 1: He didn't feel his pain, but he recognized it and
Speaker 1: he played on it. I'm Stephen Talty and this as
Speaker 1: good assassin's hunting the butcher. So it's the first to
Speaker 1: find and not be able to get forward til the
Speaker 1: second part was to find the last and healing. We
Speaker 1: must thwart this shameful forces, the end of a trail
Speaker 1: of blood, of horror, the end of a man whose
Speaker 1: name will be written in it. For episode seven, the
Speaker 1: method of death, so Mio was taking Suckers around, winding
Speaker 1: and dining him and talking about trips to other countries.
Speaker 1: He told seekers was about making money, but the real
Speaker 1: reason was the job couldn't be done in Brazil. They're
Speaker 1: called out in the suburbs of Rio de Janeiro, the
Speaker 1: well rioting over a Brazilian government. If the mission went badly, too,
Speaker 1: many Jews would face blowback. According to Dr Sarah Valente,
Speaker 1: who studies the legacy of the Holocaust in Brazil and
Speaker 1: who you heard from an episode three, Jews in Brazil
Speaker 1: were now being regularly targeted, not just along ethnic lines,
Speaker 1: but along political and religious lines as well. The represented
Speaker 1: leadership of sixty four disproportionately targeted those who were so
Speaker 1: called subversives, those who did not fit into the you know,
Speaker 1: nationalistic idea of of a Brazil that was dictated and
Speaker 1: ruled by a military government. If you were seen as
Speaker 1: a possible subversive, you were already a threat, and we
Speaker 1: see the cases of many Jews who fell into that category.
Speaker 1: I think it's important for us to mention the role
Speaker 1: of Catholicism in many ways that religios. It still in
Speaker 1: certain ways allows the Jew to be seen as as
Speaker 1: a denier of Christ. So, for example, when we think
Speaker 1: about anti Semitism in the United States today, people are
Speaker 1: not going around in the United States saying the Jews
Speaker 1: have killed Jesus, therefore right. But in the case of
Speaker 1: Latin America, that idea, the da side charge is still
Speaker 1: something that we see in making itself appear in media,
Speaker 1: in in all kinds of um of communications, and so
Speaker 1: during the dictatorship, again the Jew is seen as this
Speaker 1: kind of other. They're not able to convert, they're not
Speaker 1: able to become one of us. And Zukers seemed to
Speaker 1: like the idea of the trips. But there was a catch.
Speaker 1: When Zukers was discovered living in Brazilian nine, protesters had
Speaker 1: tried to get him deported, but it hadn't worked. Here's
Speaker 1: Dr Valente explaining the fallout. The Ministry of Justice, an
Speaker 1: interior affairs replies to the Jewish community, to the it's
Speaker 1: called the Hilitas the Jewish Federation, that there is no
Speaker 1: issue of legality with Cooker's entrant in Brazil. That's basically
Speaker 1: their response. Now there's no issue of legality that we
Speaker 1: have to look into, and so that we could say
Speaker 1: is kind of the official response. The Brazilian government knew
Speaker 1: these allegations. Nothing was ever done to, you know, bring
Speaker 1: him to judgment or anything along these lines. The only
Speaker 1: thing that did happen is that he was not able
Speaker 1: to become a Brazilian citizen. That was the only thing
Speaker 1: that the Jewish Federation was able to stop was that
Speaker 1: he was not granted citizenship. Essentially, Zukers was largely unscathed,
Speaker 1: except for the fact that he couldn't get a passport.
Speaker 1: So now how is Meal supposed to get him out
Speaker 1: of the country if he didn't have the right documents.
Speaker 1: Soon after the trip to Santos with Cosla, Suckers had
Speaker 1: been to see his contact in DPS, the Brazilian Internal
Speaker 1: Security Service. And it's worth remembering Sucers always had powerful
Speaker 1: people looking out for him in the Brazilian government. Dr
Speaker 1: Valente studied the documents Sucers used to apply for permanent residency,
Speaker 1: and it's obvious to her that Brazilian officials would have
Speaker 1: been sympathetic. That's as far as we could say. You
Speaker 1: know of some kind of tangible action by the Ministry
Speaker 1: of Justice in Brazil, is that they did decide to
Speaker 1: hold a process for his petition of naturalization in virtue
Speaker 1: of this kind of uncertainty of information available regarding to
Speaker 1: his life prior to that moment and throughout the process.
Speaker 1: I mean, I have the images of the different documents
Speaker 1: that he used, the documents that he provided to the
Speaker 1: Brazilian consulate. He never once hid his real identity, his
Speaker 1: biographical information, everything is, you know, the correct information. There's
Speaker 1: you don't get a sense that he's trying to hide
Speaker 1: who he was or his activities. And after the Aikman kidnapping,
Speaker 1: Zukris was worried about the Jews and the Israelis, but
Speaker 1: he was confident that the Brazilian government would still have
Speaker 1: his back and he was right. Again, here's Dr Valente.
Speaker 1: So I've actually looked more in detail into about four
Speaker 1: of these Nazis, Gustav Wagner being one of them, and um,
Speaker 1: there are quite a few others, but this is always
Speaker 1: the same. You know. They were able to attain what
Speaker 1: was called a salvo kundo to, which is like it's
Speaker 1: basically a permission that says you're a good person. Um,
Speaker 1: it's almost like an affidavid that you're able to give
Speaker 1: from a the local authorities that says, okay, this person
Speaker 1: is clean. And I should also mention, you know, when
Speaker 1: Aikman was discovered and captured in Argentina in nineteen sixty,
Speaker 1: Kukers became very fearful of what might happen to him
Speaker 1: and his family, and at this time he did not
Speaker 1: hesitate to actually file paperwork with the local authorities to
Speaker 1: ask for a protection for him in his family, and
Speaker 1: he was granted a permission to care for arm because
Speaker 1: in Brazil at the time you couldn't carry far arms,
Speaker 1: and there was Brazilian secret service that was readily available
Speaker 1: to protect him in his family. So Zookers knew he
Speaker 1: could rely on his government contacts. It was natural that
Speaker 1: he'd reach out about the trip he was planning with
Speaker 1: this Austrian businessman. Should he go again. This made me
Speaker 1: think of Marathon Man. The question that every fugitive wants answered.
Speaker 1: Is it safe? Sukers is telling this Brazilian agent about
Speaker 1: kuns La, and the guy was immediately suspicious. It's safe
Speaker 1: to assume that your enemies have not forgotten you, He
Speaker 1: told Sukers. I can protect you here in Sal Paulo,
Speaker 1: but my jurisdiction stops at the border. Once Zukers crossed
Speaker 1: into another country, he was on his own. Chile and
Speaker 1: Uruguay had much smaller Jewish populations. If there was blowback
Speaker 1: from the operation, fewer people would suffer. But there was
Speaker 1: a catch. When Zukers were discovered living in Brazil in
Speaker 1: nineteen fifty, protesters had tried to get him deported. It
Speaker 1: hadn't worked. But it meant that Zukers never became a
Speaker 1: Brazilian citizen, so he didn't have a passport. Kunst talked
Speaker 1: it over with Zukers. The butcher told him there was
Speaker 1: something called an alien's passport, a temporary travel document the
Speaker 1: government could issue that would allow Zukers to travel. It
Speaker 1: costs about thirty dollars Kunsili paid, and the problem was solved.
Speaker 1: They were getting along. Mio even joked about the incident
Speaker 1: with a pistol at the hotel, as was the gun.
Speaker 1: I told Sukers, you have nothing to worry about. I'll
Speaker 1: get it susible to controls a. Zukos grinned back. Most
Speaker 1: of the time he kept a poker face, not disclosing
Speaker 1: his emotions, but this time there was left the lines
Speaker 1: around his eyes, which sparkled this genuine joy. The plan
Speaker 1: seemed to be going smoothly. Suckers was starting to trust
Speaker 1: me O. He bought in, or at least that's what
Speaker 1: Meo thought. What the spy didn't know was that Zukers
Speaker 1: too was playing a part. He pretended he was gung ho.
Speaker 1: What the truth is. He was deeply worried by the
Speaker 1: idea of leaving the country. He even mentioned it to
Speaker 1: his wife. What if this was a trick? Decades on
Speaker 1: the run had made him a warrior? He couldn't help it.
Speaker 1: He knew the twos wanted him, he knew he was
Speaker 1: on various lists. Who's to say this wasn't the nightmare
Speaker 1: he'd been running away from ever since he left Latvia.
Speaker 1: Zukers thought about it. What kuns Law offered was so
Speaker 1: tem It was maybe his last chance at getting rich
Speaker 1: and getting his reputation back. It was too good to
Speaker 1: pass up. He was leaning towards going, but he wasn't sure.
Speaker 1: He told the Brazilian agent, I've never been a coward.
Speaker 1: This is episode seven. So if you're this far into
Speaker 1: the story, we're assuming you're enjoying Hunting the Butcher. If
Speaker 1: you're listening on Apple podcasts, can I ask you for
Speaker 1: a quick favor? It only takes a minute. Find the
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Speaker 1: the Butcher. It really helps get the word out and
Speaker 1: let other listeners know about the podcast much appreciate it did.
Speaker 1: Now on with the show, Neal and Suckers hashed out
Speaker 1: the details of the trip, when they would leave, how
Speaker 1: long they would stay. Then they went to a Japanese
Speaker 1: restaurant to celebrate. When they walked in, the matri d
Speaker 1: rushed over. He showed the two men to a good table,
Speaker 1: gave them v I P. Treatment. Suckers was impressed. He
Speaker 1: didn't know that me had been there a few days earlier,
Speaker 1: making a big splash, tipping the waiters and the matri
Speaker 1: d heavily to make sure they remember him. He didn't
Speaker 1: want to take any chances. We ordered rum and cokes,
Speaker 1: and the drinks arrived. He glanced at Sukers. I noticed
Speaker 1: he drank very slowly. He would start with a small
Speaker 1: sip as if examining the contents of the glass because
Speaker 1: in the late a few minutes, and only then stopped drinking.
Speaker 1: He behaved like someone afraid of being poisoned. Slipping a
Speaker 1: dose of poison into the butcher's cocktail had been one
Speaker 1: method that Neo had been considering, but now it wasn't
Speaker 1: going to work. Zukers was just too suspicious. But if
Speaker 1: he tasted the champagne or the piece of steak that
Speaker 1: had the poison in it and spit it out and
Speaker 1: then pulled out the gun he always seemed to carry,
Speaker 1: that would be bad. Neo cross poison off the list,
Speaker 1: He'd have to find another way. So they had a
Speaker 1: tentative agreement they would start with Uruguay. Zukers invited Kunsla
Speaker 1: to his house for strutle and coffee and to tell
Speaker 1: the family about the plan. It was as if he
Speaker 1: wanted his children to see that the bad years were
Speaker 1: almost over, that the accusations of being a Nazi in
Speaker 1: a war criminal were beginning to fade. They made every
Speaker 1: sentence I said and closely examined every move I made. Afterward,
Speaker 1: Neo flew to Uruguay and its capital month of the day.
Speaker 1: He wanted to see if it could work in the
Speaker 1: final act of the mission. Jim Piden Lane team, the
Speaker 1: Spanish sailor saw this mountain monte Ville, meaning I see
Speaker 1: a mountain, And to this day we know the capital
Speaker 1: of Uruguay as Montagdeo. Uruguay, between Brazil and Argentina is
Speaker 1: one of the world's purest democracies. It's the traveler making
Speaker 1: the grand tour of South America is well advised to
Speaker 1: fars to take in the easy, congenial mood of Uruguay's metropolis.
Speaker 1: I spoke to the noted Uruguayan writer Fernando Budizoni. Budizoni
Speaker 1: studied the Zuker's case closely and recently published a carefully
Speaker 1: researched book about it in Spanish and tip old los
Speaker 1: k nunka vidaran or those who will never forget. He
Speaker 1: described to me what Montevideo was like in those days.
Speaker 1: Monte Video was that quiet city, somewhat gray, a few
Speaker 1: cars on the streets, important building, well dressed as people.
Speaker 1: It was not a dangelous city like European city, a
Speaker 1: smaller European city, and our architecture it's very similar to
Speaker 1: the Barcelona and Madrid architecture. Meal rented a car, studied
Speaker 1: the map, and started searching for a house. He needed
Speaker 1: something that looked like it could serve as the home
Speaker 1: base for respectable company. It had to look good, it
Speaker 1: had to fool the butcher. Sukers arrived in Montevideo a
Speaker 1: few days later. He was super excited. He probably hadn't
Speaker 1: left Brazil in twenty years, and now he was on
Speaker 1: a vacation with all expenses paid. Budazoni thinks Montevideo might
Speaker 1: have even felt like a kind of homecoming for Zukers
Speaker 1: and for Cooks it was. I think it was like
Speaker 1: going back to Europe after twenty year. He had never
Speaker 1: returned as to Europe from from the end of the war.
Speaker 1: Mio and Suckers checked into the hotel. Then when driving around,
Speaker 1: they spoke to real estate agents, they studied listings, and
Speaker 1: they checked out houses. This was the important thing. Neo
Speaker 1: was starting to condition Zookers, getting it to go in
Speaker 1: and out of strange houses. There weren't a lot of
Speaker 1: places on the market, so Mio said they would come
Speaker 1: back early in the spring and look again. He'd seen enough.
Speaker 1: Uruguay was the place, and Buddhizoni understands why at that
Speaker 1: time you why was a peaceful place, really peaceful, a
Speaker 1: small and democratic country. We were surrounded by the dictatorship
Speaker 1: in Argentina, in Brazil, in Paraguay, and so in my
Speaker 1: country the life was peaceful in Uuay, unlike Brazils, there
Speaker 1: was not the penalty, there were political freedom, and we
Speaker 1: have good relations with Israel. There was not explicit anti
Speaker 1: Semitism in our society, and I think that explain why
Speaker 1: Mosal's choose your way to carry out the ambush against Cucku.
Speaker 1: Because in Brazil he was very, very protected by the
Speaker 1: political police, and then in Argentina still remembered the adult
Speaker 1: Aisman case, you know, and Paraguay was the was for
Speaker 1: many Nazis. That is why, in my opinion, you know
Speaker 1: why he was the best alternatives, or maybe they are
Speaker 1: the alternatives or the mos Everything was finalized. They'd hit
Speaker 1: the capitol again in a few months and start buying buildings.
Speaker 1: Zukers would go on the payroll. He'd finally get those
Speaker 1: taped up glasses fixed, maybe sell off his boat rental business.
Speaker 1: It was time to celebrate. The two men went to
Speaker 1: a local casino in Montevideo. They played the tables, had
Speaker 1: a few drinks, a good food. When Mia wanted roulette,
Speaker 1: he took the winnings and gave half to Zukers. They
Speaker 1: were partners now, it was like a down payment on
Speaker 1: the dream. Through all of this, Zukers looked relaxed, but
Speaker 1: it wasn't true. Later it would turn out that he'd
Speaker 1: seen something disturbing. While they were having lunch one day,
Speaker 1: he spotted a bunch of dark haired men and women
Speaker 1: at a nearby table. Though he didn't tell kuns La,
Speaker 1: he became convinced these were Israeli spies. Zucker's wife later
Speaker 1: told police in an interview. They were sitting a few
Speaker 1: tables away from Herbert and kuns La. They spoke in
Speaker 1: loud voices and made a lot of noise, as is
Speaker 1: typical of Jews. Neo had no idea this was going on.
Speaker 1: He hadn't noticed the table. It was probably just a
Speaker 1: bunch of locals having a good time. There was no
Speaker 1: backup team trailing him. It was all in Suker's head.
Speaker 1: It was the latest in a series of things that
Speaker 1: worried me. Oh Zuker's tasting his drink for poison, the guns,
Speaker 1: the mention of Joseph Kramer, the Nazi commander. Something else
Speaker 1: came up. A few days later, while they were still
Speaker 1: in Uruguay, they went out for dinner, and after they
Speaker 1: sat down, Zuker spoke to the waiter in Kiddish. He
Speaker 1: was checking to see if the guy knew the language,
Speaker 1: that is, if he was Jewish. The waiter had no
Speaker 1: idea what Sucers was saying. So the butcher switched to Spanish,
Speaker 1: but Mio could not believe it would The butcher, ever
Speaker 1: calmed down, he seemed even more paranoid now that he
Speaker 1: was out of Brazil. It bothered Meo. In fact, the
Speaker 1: mission was beginning to weigh on Meo. He not only
Speaker 1: had to deal with Suker's mistrust, but the anxiety of
Speaker 1: always waiting to be discovered, of being arrested and put
Speaker 1: on trial. He really missed his family. After Abraham, the
Speaker 1: former Massad agent, knows what that's like. And I can
Speaker 1: tell you frankly that I lost most of my friends
Speaker 1: because I was I isolated. That used to fly here.
Speaker 1: And even when you walk in Israel, you walk from
Speaker 1: it's not nine to five, you can walk from six
Speaker 1: till midnight every day. You work very hard, and and
Speaker 1: you don't see your kids maybe or you can see
Speaker 1: them only in the morning before you go again to
Speaker 1: your walk. So in this kind of work, and you
Speaker 1: have secrets all the time. Usually you you don't have friends. Yeah,
Speaker 1: maybe you have friends from Mossad, okay, but yes, you're paid.
Speaker 1: It was a lonely existence in which he never got
Speaker 1: to reveal his true self and was constantly afraid of
Speaker 1: slipping up and destroying not only the mission but his
Speaker 1: own life. Every double agent faced the same thing, but
Speaker 1: now me, it was really starting to feel it. It
Speaker 1: was the price of being undercover. Just because he was
Speaker 1: good at it didn't mean it was easy. Here's Gad Samran,
Speaker 1: the other ex Messade agent you've heard from, talking about this.
Speaker 1: This is quite unique. I can I can only you know,
Speaker 1: given my postal account, and had also worked under cover
Speaker 1: also in Arab countries. It's a huge mental Boden and
Speaker 1: and and Neo. I've done it so naturally that I
Speaker 1: think that the future worlds maybe he could have done
Speaker 1: a very nice career. Habima Israeli National Theater for MEO
Speaker 1: Act one was coming to an end. It was time
Speaker 1: for the Massad agent to return to Paris. He'd gotten
Speaker 1: as close at the butcher as was possible. He had
Speaker 1: all the information on Uruguay and what it would take
Speaker 1: to carry out a mission there, and he was beginning
Speaker 1: to sketch out the details of the assassination. They parted
Speaker 1: like old friends. Neo told Suckers they would see each
Speaker 1: other soon, and then he boarded a flight back to France. Hey,
Speaker 1: this is Stephen Talty, the host of this podcast, Good
Speaker 1: Assassin's Hunting the Butcher. As I've mentioned a couple of
Speaker 1: times on the show, this podcast project came out of
Speaker 1: my work on a related book called The Good Assassin.
Speaker 1: If you want to explore other parts of this story,
Speaker 1: check it out. It's not just a book version of
Speaker 1: the podcast. I spend time on different aspects of the mission.
Speaker 1: There are chapters diving into World War Two history that
Speaker 1: we didn't cover in the podcast, and the book works
Speaker 1: as a kind of a companion to the listening experience.
Speaker 1: The paperback edition just arrived. You can purchase a copy
Speaker 1: of The Good Assassin on Amazon, Apple Books, and on
Speaker 1: bookshop dot Org. Thanks. While in Brazil, New had little
Speaker 1: idea what was going on in Germany and in the
Speaker 1: whole amnesty debate. There were articles about it even in
Speaker 1: the South Pollo papers. It was turning into a global issue.
Speaker 1: Here's what some of the American radio coverage sounded like.
Speaker 1: The German constitution places a maximum twenty year limit on
Speaker 1: the prosecution of any crimes people arose to power by
Speaker 1: tampering with a self same constitution, and the bond government
Speaker 1: wants no repetition of that it believes that the Democratic
Speaker 1: Society for a Sunnian violability of basic law. This is
Speaker 1: not to say that the West German government is not
Speaker 1: doing anything about these problems, if legal experts are studying
Speaker 1: the statue of limitations, but the statue of limitations has
Speaker 1: an importance aside from the question of punishing the criminals.
Speaker 1: The fact that twenty years have passed means that almost
Speaker 1: half of West Germany's fifty million people are too young
Speaker 1: to remember anything at all a brought the war or
Speaker 1: Hitler in this thousand year right. A very high percentage
Speaker 1: reached stage of awareness only in the ten years since
Speaker 1: the country was made independent. It is quite natural that
Speaker 1: these younger people are sick and tired of hearing about
Speaker 1: the sins of their elders. Not that they deny those sins.
Speaker 1: They are aware of them, but they leave the denials
Speaker 1: to those more guilty than they m But the radio
Speaker 1: reports and newspaper articles didn't tell what was happening behind
Speaker 1: the scenes. The two Nazi hunters to Via Friedman and
Speaker 1: Simon Wiesenthal, We're working on issue nearly full time, and
Speaker 1: they were starting to see results. A few American companies
Speaker 1: announced the boycott of German goods. This upset a lot
Speaker 1: of people. In Berlin, the German ambassador said there was
Speaker 1: excessive agitation going on in the United States. People were
Speaker 1: writing letters, a lot of them, which is what you
Speaker 1: did in the mid sixties when you wanted to pressure
Speaker 1: a government. German embassies and consulates around the world have
Speaker 1: been bombarded with petitions and deputations, wrote the Los Angeles Times,
Speaker 1: letters and telegrams in the thousands. Protesters showed up on
Speaker 1: the streets in New York. Dozens of men and women
Speaker 1: marched up and down Park Avenue with science reading no
Speaker 1: Statute of Limitations for mass murder and Jewish survivors of
Speaker 1: Nazi persecution. Vicenthal was spending money. He bought advertising space
Speaker 1: in newspapers all over the world and published the letter
Speaker 1: he'd written, along with the signatures of the two famous scientists. Politicians,
Speaker 1: writers and others signed it. It got a lot of attention.
Speaker 1: Someone even gave Visenthal the private number of former First
Speaker 1: Lady Jackie Kennedy, who made calls to help the movement.
Speaker 1: It was encouraging. Still, the only people that really mattered
Speaker 1: with the men and women in the German Parliament and
Speaker 1: what they were thinking. Nobody really knew. The debate played
Speaker 1: out in German newspapers and on the radio and TV.
Speaker 1: Supporters of the amnesty argued that jailing more x Nazis,
Speaker 1: many of whom held high positions and companies in the government,
Speaker 1: would crippled Germany's economy. The Justice Ministry of Germany in
Speaker 1: nineteen sixty four, for example, was almost identical to Hitler's
Speaker 1: Reich Ministry of Justice. The faces were mostly the same,
Speaker 1: only the name plates on the doors had been changed.
Speaker 1: What were you going to do? Empty the place out
Speaker 1: because of what those men had done during the war?
Speaker 1: Who would run the courts? Who would run the country?
Speaker 1: They weren't estimated two hundred blood judges, men who had
Speaker 1: served under the Third Reich still on the bench. If
Speaker 1: Freeman and the other activists truly wanted to jail every
Speaker 1: Nazi and participate in the murder of a Jew, Germany
Speaker 1: could come to a grinding halt. As count or intuitive
Speaker 1: as it sounded. If the world truly wanted the new
Speaker 1: Germany to flourish, it had to allow some Nazis to
Speaker 1: remain free. If you didn't, people would get angry. They'd
Speaker 1: resent us even more than they already did. It was
Speaker 1: a weird idea. If you prosecute Nazis for murderer, they'll
Speaker 1: get more Nazis, not fewer. The parallel was World War One.
Speaker 1: The harsh terms of the Versailles peace treaty had triggered
Speaker 1: a conspiracy theory among Germans, the famous stabbed in the
Speaker 1: back idea. Hitler had been obsessed by this theory. Now
Speaker 1: the pro statute forces were saying that more Nazi trials
Speaker 1: would start a backlash. Some sense to warning, if you
Speaker 1: don't back off, will stop feeling remorseful and start feeling angry.
Speaker 1: Behind such arguments lay an unpleasant truth, one that to
Speaker 1: Via Freedman had known for years. Hitler had enjoyed far
Speaker 1: wider and deeper support than anyone in Germany wanted to admit.
Speaker 1: The former Auschwitz judge Heinz Dukes would later say approximately
Speaker 1: ninety percent of the Germans, as activists and fellow travelers,
Speaker 1: translated the murderous ideology of the National socialist regime into action.
Speaker 1: Germans preferred the guilty few theory of the Holocaust, the
Speaker 1: idea that Hitler and a handful of other men had
Speaker 1: forced Germans to become accomplices in the genocide of Jews.
Speaker 1: This absolved most citizens of their own guilt. Individual Germans
Speaker 1: almost never admitted playing a part in the Holocaust. If
Speaker 1: trials were allowed to go on indefinitely and prosecutors were
Speaker 1: free to track down every officer and soldier who had
Speaker 1: murdered somebody during the war, a deeper and more disturbing
Speaker 1: portrait of the Holocaust would emerge. This is what people
Speaker 1: were saying, as if that was a bad thing. But
Speaker 1: that's exactly what free Men and the others wanted. They
Speaker 1: believed the full truth of what happened during the war
Speaker 1: had never been acknowledged. Here's Freemen from a memoir he
Speaker 1: wrote in the early sixties. Millions of Germans today were
Speaker 1: a decade and a half ago Nazis thoughtful people are
Speaker 1: troubled by the fact that the new generation rising in
Speaker 1: Germany today does not fully know the enormity of the
Speaker 1: crimes that were committed. The textbooks in Germany do not
Speaker 1: spell out the hideous, unspeakable crimes that were committed by
Speaker 1: men and women who are themselves parents, grandparents, relatives of
Speaker 1: young Germans. How can we be sure that the leader
Speaker 1: loving German people will not again follow in the footsteps
Speaker 1: of a power mad dictator if today's generation of Germans
Speaker 1: does not know and fully understand the history of the
Speaker 1: Nazi period. Freeman didn't know about Massad's mission to assassinate
Speaker 1: Herbert Suckers, but there's little doubt he would have approved.
Speaker 1: He was working the corridors of power. But his campaign
Speaker 1: lacks something. It needed a face, a real life monster,
Speaker 1: to show what kind of Nazis were still walking free
Speaker 1: in the world. Hitler was gone, Doctor Mangela was in hiding.
Speaker 1: They needed someone who done terrible things and was still free.
Speaker 1: That role would be filled by Herbert Suckers. It was
Speaker 1: late October. Neo was playing touchdown in Paris. He went
Speaker 1: to his apartment, kissed his wife, played with his kids.
Speaker 1: He slept in his own bed for the first time
Speaker 1: in six weeks. He was himself again. He didn't have
Speaker 1: to pretend. After a few days, your reefs summoned Meo.
Speaker 1: He went back to the Massi department to meet the
Speaker 1: three other men Youreif had selected for the killed team,
Speaker 1: Laser Sudi, zev Amid and multi Ka. Fear Meal had
Speaker 1: brought a suitcase back with him from Brazil. It was
Speaker 1: filled with stuff, notes, maps, flight schedules. You had saved
Speaker 1: everything that had the smallest part to play in the operation.
Speaker 1: He'd written out a description of Zuker's home to lay
Speaker 1: out the drawer with the guns everything. There was a
Speaker 1: section on how scarce rental cars were in Uruguay. The
Speaker 1: team would need multiple cars, so that was something they'd
Speaker 1: have to take care of as soon as they landed.
Speaker 1: Meal listed what documents you needed to check into a
Speaker 1: hotel as a foreigner, and a master list of hotels
Speaker 1: they could use. The men began sorting the documents and
Speaker 1: putting them into separate files. Now the team had to
Speaker 1: sort through it all and begin checking and double checking
Speaker 1: every detail. They had to decide on how to eliminate
Speaker 1: the butcher, and they had to get their own cover
Speaker 1: I entities. The team now had five months until March,
Speaker 1: five months until the vote in the German Parliament that
Speaker 1: would spell victory or defeat. They felt the weight of
Speaker 1: history on them. They were thinking of future generations. So
Speaker 1: much rested on this mission, and if they could actually
Speaker 1: pull it off, it wouldn't be until much later, In fact,
Speaker 1: until it was too late that they realized the mistakes
Speaker 1: they were making. Good assassins. Hunting the Butcher is a
Speaker 1: production of Diversion Podcasts in association with I Heart Radio.
Speaker 1: This season is written and hosted by Stephen Tulty, produced
Speaker 1: and directed by Scott Waxman and Jacob Bronstein. Executive producers
Speaker 1: Scott Waxman and Mark Francis. Story editing by Jacob Bronstein,
Speaker 1: with editorial direction from Scott Waxman and Mangesh At Tickedur Editing,
Speaker 1: mixing and sound designed by Mark Francis with the voices
Speaker 1: of Nick Afka, Thomas Armory, Angle, Andrew Polk, Mindy Escobar, Leants,
Speaker 1: Steve Rautman, and Stefan Rudnitsky. Theme music by Tyler Cash.
Speaker 1: Archival research by Adam Shapiro. Thanks to Oran Rosenbaum at
Speaker 1: ut A Diversion Podcasts. It