1 00:00:07,360 --> 00:00:15,400 Speaker 1: Diversion Podcasts. This is Stephen Talty. I wanted to let 2 00:00:15,440 --> 00:00:19,120 Speaker 1: you know about something we're trying. We've set up an 3 00:00:19,160 --> 00:00:22,480 Speaker 1: email address for listeners to send us your questions about 4 00:00:22,480 --> 00:00:25,759 Speaker 1: the show. Are you curious about something you've heard on 5 00:00:25,840 --> 00:00:28,680 Speaker 1: Hunting the Butcher and want to know more? Is there 6 00:00:28,720 --> 00:00:31,760 Speaker 1: something I haven't covered that you wish I would. I 7 00:00:31,800 --> 00:00:35,240 Speaker 1: want to hear from you. Record yourself asking your question. 8 00:00:35,720 --> 00:00:39,280 Speaker 1: The voice memos app on iPhone works well. Include your 9 00:00:39,360 --> 00:00:42,080 Speaker 1: name and where you're from, and we'll try to answer 10 00:00:42,120 --> 00:00:46,159 Speaker 1: your question on a future episode. The email address is 11 00:00:46,240 --> 00:00:51,440 Speaker 1: Hunting the Butcher at Diversion podcast dot com. Record yourself 12 00:00:51,479 --> 00:00:54,960 Speaker 1: asking a question and email it to me again. The 13 00:00:55,000 --> 00:01:00,680 Speaker 1: email address is Hunting the Butcher at Diversion Podcasts dot com. 14 00:01:00,720 --> 00:01:04,240 Speaker 1: That's podcasts plural with an S at the end. I'm 15 00:01:04,240 --> 00:01:09,319 Speaker 1: looking forward to hearing your questions. Thanks now on with 16 00:01:09,400 --> 00:01:15,560 Speaker 1: the show. This episode contains descriptions of graphic violence and 17 00:01:15,600 --> 00:01:36,559 Speaker 1: scenes of genocide. Listener's discretion is advised by the winter 18 00:01:36,640 --> 00:01:41,360 Speaker 1: of the mission was coming into focus. Use if you 19 00:01:41,480 --> 00:01:44,360 Speaker 1: reeve had chosen this killed team. They were training under 20 00:01:44,400 --> 00:01:49,640 Speaker 1: the Crabmaga master Emi Lichtenfeld for hours at a time. 21 00:01:49,880 --> 00:01:52,720 Speaker 1: They grunted and kicked and practiced the blow that would 22 00:01:52,720 --> 00:01:55,880 Speaker 1: bring a butcher to his knees. They were the same 23 00:01:55,920 --> 00:01:59,880 Speaker 1: moves that Lichtenfeld had used on Nazi thugs in Hungary. 24 00:02:00,480 --> 00:02:03,440 Speaker 1: The team was confident they would work on Herbert Suckers 25 00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:11,360 Speaker 1: in Brazil. Mio continued to meet with Suckers, trying to 26 00:02:11,400 --> 00:02:15,280 Speaker 1: stoke suckers excitement for his coming wealth and make sure 27 00:02:15,320 --> 00:02:18,520 Speaker 1: he'd be willing to travel somewhere outside of Brazil with 28 00:02:18,600 --> 00:02:21,880 Speaker 1: kunz La. They would go to a restaurant in Kunzla 29 00:02:21,919 --> 00:02:26,040 Speaker 1: would paint a picture deals. Money. Success was all on 30 00:02:26,040 --> 00:02:29,360 Speaker 1: the horizon, he told Suckers. He was getting excited about 31 00:02:29,400 --> 00:02:33,320 Speaker 1: the prospects for tourism in Brazil. So were his partners 32 00:02:33,360 --> 00:02:36,880 Speaker 1: back in Austria. In fact, they were so excited that 33 00:02:36,919 --> 00:02:39,200 Speaker 1: they had encouraged him to look at other countries too. 34 00:02:39,960 --> 00:02:43,560 Speaker 1: What about Chili or Uruguay? Both were up and coming 35 00:02:43,560 --> 00:02:46,160 Speaker 1: in the tourist trade. There were millions to be made. 36 00:02:46,440 --> 00:02:51,880 Speaker 1: Why restrict themselves to Brazil? Zukers was getting excited. He 37 00:02:51,960 --> 00:02:55,639 Speaker 1: needed the money, but more importantly, after being a pariah 38 00:02:55,720 --> 00:02:58,960 Speaker 1: for years, he needed the encouragement that this high roller 39 00:02:59,080 --> 00:03:02,360 Speaker 1: gave him. Neo had sensed almost from the minute he 40 00:03:02,400 --> 00:03:05,400 Speaker 1: met Sukers that the guy was a narcissist, but not 41 00:03:05,480 --> 00:03:09,080 Speaker 1: an ordinary one. Yes, Suckers had been a solo act 42 00:03:09,320 --> 00:03:11,840 Speaker 1: back in the nineteen thirties when he made headlines as 43 00:03:11,880 --> 00:03:15,320 Speaker 1: an aviator, but as he got older, it turned out 44 00:03:15,520 --> 00:03:17,359 Speaker 1: he didn't have to be in the lead role all 45 00:03:17,400 --> 00:03:21,239 Speaker 1: the time. In fact, there's evidence that Suckers sought out 46 00:03:21,280 --> 00:03:24,919 Speaker 1: strong men that he could follow, and it happened in Latvia, 47 00:03:25,080 --> 00:03:27,720 Speaker 1: where he joined a commando unit run by a handsome, 48 00:03:27,880 --> 00:03:32,240 Speaker 1: hard driving killer named Victor Raj. Raj was the leader, 49 00:03:32,440 --> 00:03:35,520 Speaker 1: Zukers the second in command, and now it was happening 50 00:03:35,520 --> 00:03:41,040 Speaker 1: with Kunsla. The truth was that Mia wasn't a leader either, 51 00:03:41,360 --> 00:03:44,000 Speaker 1: not in real life. As I've talked about it was 52 00:03:44,040 --> 00:03:46,680 Speaker 1: a bit of a loner. He lacked confidence, he didn't 53 00:03:46,680 --> 00:03:50,320 Speaker 1: command room. The leaders from ASSAD were pretty sharp judges 54 00:03:50,320 --> 00:03:53,520 Speaker 1: of character. When they promoted one of their agents and 55 00:03:53,560 --> 00:03:56,280 Speaker 1: gave them their own unit, it showed they'd seen something 56 00:03:56,280 --> 00:03:59,240 Speaker 1: in that man. He could be a boss, he could 57 00:03:59,320 --> 00:04:03,000 Speaker 1: motivate man. So far, no one had seen that in Mio. 58 00:04:03,920 --> 00:04:06,880 Speaker 1: Massad knew he was a kind of genius at going undercover, 59 00:04:07,400 --> 00:04:10,840 Speaker 1: but they never offered him his own unit. Me understood why, 60 00:04:11,480 --> 00:04:17,760 Speaker 1: and it's stun so. Maybe that's why he understood Suckers 61 00:04:17,839 --> 00:04:22,240 Speaker 1: so well. In a way, they were alike. They shared 62 00:04:22,279 --> 00:04:25,400 Speaker 1: that same frustration. They've never gotten their do in life. 63 00:04:27,279 --> 00:04:30,400 Speaker 1: I want to be clear, I'm speculating here. Meo never 64 00:04:30,440 --> 00:04:33,920 Speaker 1: talked about this. He never said I felt the butcher's pain. 65 00:04:34,760 --> 00:04:38,880 Speaker 1: He didn't feel his pain, but he recognized it and 66 00:04:38,960 --> 00:04:55,640 Speaker 1: he played on it. I'm Stephen Talty and this as 67 00:04:55,680 --> 00:05:04,960 Speaker 1: good assassin's hunting the butcher. So it's the first to 68 00:05:05,560 --> 00:05:08,200 Speaker 1: find and not be able to get forward til the 69 00:05:08,200 --> 00:05:12,000 Speaker 1: second part was to find the last and healing. We 70 00:05:12,640 --> 00:05:16,839 Speaker 1: must thwart this shameful forces, the end of a trail 71 00:05:16,920 --> 00:05:19,440 Speaker 1: of blood, of horror, the end of a man whose 72 00:05:19,520 --> 00:05:31,159 Speaker 1: name will be written in it. For episode seven, the 73 00:05:31,240 --> 00:05:46,680 Speaker 1: method of death, so Mio was taking Suckers around, winding 74 00:05:46,680 --> 00:05:49,360 Speaker 1: and dining him and talking about trips to other countries. 75 00:05:50,080 --> 00:05:53,320 Speaker 1: He told seekers was about making money, but the real 76 00:05:53,400 --> 00:05:56,440 Speaker 1: reason was the job couldn't be done in Brazil. They're 77 00:05:56,440 --> 00:05:58,680 Speaker 1: called out in the suburbs of Rio de Janeiro, the 78 00:05:58,839 --> 00:06:05,520 Speaker 1: well rioting over a Brazilian government. If the mission went badly, too, 79 00:06:05,560 --> 00:06:10,480 Speaker 1: many Jews would face blowback. According to Dr Sarah Valente, 80 00:06:10,640 --> 00:06:13,599 Speaker 1: who studies the legacy of the Holocaust in Brazil and 81 00:06:13,640 --> 00:06:16,960 Speaker 1: who you heard from an episode three, Jews in Brazil 82 00:06:17,200 --> 00:06:20,919 Speaker 1: were now being regularly targeted, not just along ethnic lines, 83 00:06:21,360 --> 00:06:25,960 Speaker 1: but along political and religious lines as well. The represented 84 00:06:26,040 --> 00:06:30,720 Speaker 1: leadership of sixty four disproportionately targeted those who were so 85 00:06:30,800 --> 00:06:35,480 Speaker 1: called subversives, those who did not fit into the you know, 86 00:06:35,640 --> 00:06:40,719 Speaker 1: nationalistic idea of of a Brazil that was dictated and 87 00:06:40,839 --> 00:06:44,360 Speaker 1: ruled by a military government. If you were seen as 88 00:06:44,400 --> 00:06:48,600 Speaker 1: a possible subversive, you were already a threat, and we 89 00:06:48,680 --> 00:06:53,080 Speaker 1: see the cases of many Jews who fell into that category. 90 00:06:53,440 --> 00:06:56,320 Speaker 1: I think it's important for us to mention the role 91 00:06:56,400 --> 00:07:01,600 Speaker 1: of Catholicism in many ways that religios. It still in 92 00:07:01,920 --> 00:07:06,680 Speaker 1: certain ways allows the Jew to be seen as as 93 00:07:06,720 --> 00:07:09,920 Speaker 1: a denier of Christ. So, for example, when we think 94 00:07:09,960 --> 00:07:13,320 Speaker 1: about anti Semitism in the United States today, people are 95 00:07:13,320 --> 00:07:15,920 Speaker 1: not going around in the United States saying the Jews 96 00:07:15,960 --> 00:07:19,200 Speaker 1: have killed Jesus, therefore right. But in the case of 97 00:07:19,280 --> 00:07:23,000 Speaker 1: Latin America, that idea, the da side charge is still 98 00:07:23,120 --> 00:07:27,160 Speaker 1: something that we see in making itself appear in media, 99 00:07:27,360 --> 00:07:31,920 Speaker 1: in in all kinds of um of communications, and so 100 00:07:32,160 --> 00:07:34,880 Speaker 1: during the dictatorship, again the Jew is seen as this 101 00:07:35,000 --> 00:07:37,880 Speaker 1: kind of other. They're not able to convert, they're not 102 00:07:37,920 --> 00:07:43,640 Speaker 1: able to become one of us. And Zukers seemed to 103 00:07:43,720 --> 00:07:46,960 Speaker 1: like the idea of the trips. But there was a catch. 104 00:07:47,640 --> 00:07:51,560 Speaker 1: When Zukers was discovered living in Brazilian nine, protesters had 105 00:07:51,600 --> 00:07:55,320 Speaker 1: tried to get him deported, but it hadn't worked. Here's 106 00:07:55,400 --> 00:08:00,120 Speaker 1: Dr Valente explaining the fallout. The Ministry of Justice, an 107 00:08:00,200 --> 00:08:04,160 Speaker 1: interior affairs replies to the Jewish community, to the it's 108 00:08:04,200 --> 00:08:10,720 Speaker 1: called the Hilitas the Jewish Federation, that there is no 109 00:08:10,800 --> 00:08:15,240 Speaker 1: issue of legality with Cooker's entrant in Brazil. That's basically 110 00:08:15,240 --> 00:08:18,240 Speaker 1: their response. Now there's no issue of legality that we 111 00:08:18,320 --> 00:08:20,880 Speaker 1: have to look into, and so that we could say 112 00:08:20,960 --> 00:08:23,880 Speaker 1: is kind of the official response. The Brazilian government knew 113 00:08:23,880 --> 00:08:27,720 Speaker 1: these allegations. Nothing was ever done to, you know, bring 114 00:08:27,800 --> 00:08:31,160 Speaker 1: him to judgment or anything along these lines. The only 115 00:08:31,160 --> 00:08:33,040 Speaker 1: thing that did happen is that he was not able 116 00:08:33,080 --> 00:08:35,080 Speaker 1: to become a Brazilian citizen. That was the only thing 117 00:08:35,120 --> 00:08:38,160 Speaker 1: that the Jewish Federation was able to stop was that 118 00:08:38,200 --> 00:08:43,800 Speaker 1: he was not granted citizenship. Essentially, Zukers was largely unscathed, 119 00:08:44,440 --> 00:08:46,800 Speaker 1: except for the fact that he couldn't get a passport. 120 00:08:47,480 --> 00:08:49,880 Speaker 1: So now how is Meal supposed to get him out 121 00:08:49,880 --> 00:08:52,479 Speaker 1: of the country if he didn't have the right documents. 122 00:08:53,520 --> 00:08:56,920 Speaker 1: Soon after the trip to Santos with Cosla, Suckers had 123 00:08:56,920 --> 00:09:01,199 Speaker 1: been to see his contact in DPS, the Brazilian Internal 124 00:09:01,240 --> 00:09:05,920 Speaker 1: Security Service. And it's worth remembering Sucers always had powerful 125 00:09:05,960 --> 00:09:10,200 Speaker 1: people looking out for him in the Brazilian government. Dr 126 00:09:10,320 --> 00:09:14,640 Speaker 1: Valente studied the documents Sucers used to apply for permanent residency, 127 00:09:15,080 --> 00:09:18,240 Speaker 1: and it's obvious to her that Brazilian officials would have 128 00:09:18,280 --> 00:09:21,480 Speaker 1: been sympathetic. That's as far as we could say. You 129 00:09:21,520 --> 00:09:25,520 Speaker 1: know of some kind of tangible action by the Ministry 130 00:09:25,559 --> 00:09:27,720 Speaker 1: of Justice in Brazil, is that they did decide to 131 00:09:27,760 --> 00:09:32,439 Speaker 1: hold a process for his petition of naturalization in virtue 132 00:09:32,440 --> 00:09:36,040 Speaker 1: of this kind of uncertainty of information available regarding to 133 00:09:36,240 --> 00:09:39,400 Speaker 1: his life prior to that moment and throughout the process. 134 00:09:39,440 --> 00:09:41,800 Speaker 1: I mean, I have the images of the different documents 135 00:09:41,800 --> 00:09:45,120 Speaker 1: that he used, the documents that he provided to the 136 00:09:45,120 --> 00:09:49,760 Speaker 1: Brazilian consulate. He never once hid his real identity, his 137 00:09:50,440 --> 00:09:54,520 Speaker 1: biographical information, everything is, you know, the correct information. There's 138 00:09:55,040 --> 00:09:57,600 Speaker 1: you don't get a sense that he's trying to hide 139 00:09:57,640 --> 00:10:01,920 Speaker 1: who he was or his activities. And after the Aikman kidnapping, 140 00:10:02,280 --> 00:10:05,920 Speaker 1: Zukris was worried about the Jews and the Israelis, but 141 00:10:06,000 --> 00:10:08,800 Speaker 1: he was confident that the Brazilian government would still have 142 00:10:08,880 --> 00:10:13,480 Speaker 1: his back and he was right. Again, here's Dr Valente. 143 00:10:14,000 --> 00:10:16,800 Speaker 1: So I've actually looked more in detail into about four 144 00:10:16,880 --> 00:10:22,040 Speaker 1: of these Nazis, Gustav Wagner being one of them, and um, 145 00:10:22,080 --> 00:10:24,680 Speaker 1: there are quite a few others, but this is always 146 00:10:24,720 --> 00:10:26,640 Speaker 1: the same. You know. They were able to attain what 147 00:10:26,720 --> 00:10:30,719 Speaker 1: was called a salvo kundo to, which is like it's 148 00:10:30,720 --> 00:10:33,960 Speaker 1: basically a permission that says you're a good person. Um, 149 00:10:34,000 --> 00:10:36,760 Speaker 1: it's almost like an affidavid that you're able to give 150 00:10:36,880 --> 00:10:40,360 Speaker 1: from a the local authorities that says, okay, this person 151 00:10:40,880 --> 00:10:43,520 Speaker 1: is clean. And I should also mention, you know, when 152 00:10:43,559 --> 00:10:47,680 Speaker 1: Aikman was discovered and captured in Argentina in nineteen sixty, 153 00:10:48,280 --> 00:10:52,760 Speaker 1: Kukers became very fearful of what might happen to him 154 00:10:52,800 --> 00:10:57,120 Speaker 1: and his family, and at this time he did not 155 00:10:57,360 --> 00:11:03,400 Speaker 1: hesitate to actually file paperwork with the local authorities to 156 00:11:03,559 --> 00:11:07,200 Speaker 1: ask for a protection for him in his family, and 157 00:11:07,280 --> 00:11:10,080 Speaker 1: he was granted a permission to care for arm because 158 00:11:10,120 --> 00:11:12,720 Speaker 1: in Brazil at the time you couldn't carry far arms, 159 00:11:13,080 --> 00:11:15,679 Speaker 1: and there was Brazilian secret service that was readily available 160 00:11:15,720 --> 00:11:26,760 Speaker 1: to protect him in his family. So Zookers knew he 161 00:11:26,760 --> 00:11:30,480 Speaker 1: could rely on his government contacts. It was natural that 162 00:11:30,480 --> 00:11:32,600 Speaker 1: he'd reach out about the trip he was planning with 163 00:11:32,640 --> 00:11:37,200 Speaker 1: this Austrian businessman. Should he go again. This made me 164 00:11:37,240 --> 00:11:41,640 Speaker 1: think of Marathon Man. The question that every fugitive wants answered. 165 00:11:42,280 --> 00:11:47,640 Speaker 1: Is it safe? Sukers is telling this Brazilian agent about 166 00:11:47,720 --> 00:11:52,319 Speaker 1: kuns La, and the guy was immediately suspicious. It's safe 167 00:11:52,360 --> 00:11:55,240 Speaker 1: to assume that your enemies have not forgotten you, He 168 00:11:55,320 --> 00:11:58,720 Speaker 1: told Sukers. I can protect you here in Sal Paulo, 169 00:11:59,320 --> 00:12:03,679 Speaker 1: but my jurisdiction stops at the border. Once Zukers crossed 170 00:12:03,720 --> 00:12:08,000 Speaker 1: into another country, he was on his own. Chile and 171 00:12:08,080 --> 00:12:12,079 Speaker 1: Uruguay had much smaller Jewish populations. If there was blowback 172 00:12:12,120 --> 00:12:15,960 Speaker 1: from the operation, fewer people would suffer. But there was 173 00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:19,040 Speaker 1: a catch. When Zukers were discovered living in Brazil in 174 00:12:19,120 --> 00:12:22,840 Speaker 1: nineteen fifty, protesters had tried to get him deported. It 175 00:12:22,880 --> 00:12:25,520 Speaker 1: hadn't worked. But it meant that Zukers never became a 176 00:12:25,559 --> 00:12:30,120 Speaker 1: Brazilian citizen, so he didn't have a passport. Kunst talked 177 00:12:30,160 --> 00:12:33,200 Speaker 1: it over with Zukers. The butcher told him there was 178 00:12:33,240 --> 00:12:37,760 Speaker 1: something called an alien's passport, a temporary travel document the 179 00:12:37,800 --> 00:12:41,559 Speaker 1: government could issue that would allow Zukers to travel. It 180 00:12:41,679 --> 00:12:45,640 Speaker 1: costs about thirty dollars Kunsili paid, and the problem was solved. 181 00:12:46,679 --> 00:12:50,000 Speaker 1: They were getting along. Mio even joked about the incident 182 00:12:50,160 --> 00:12:54,280 Speaker 1: with a pistol at the hotel, as was the gun. 183 00:12:54,520 --> 00:12:58,400 Speaker 1: I told Sukers, you have nothing to worry about. I'll 184 00:12:58,480 --> 00:13:03,360 Speaker 1: get it susible to controls a. Zukos grinned back. Most 185 00:13:03,400 --> 00:13:07,920 Speaker 1: of the time he kept a poker face, not disclosing 186 00:13:08,000 --> 00:13:12,240 Speaker 1: his emotions, but this time there was left the lines 187 00:13:12,320 --> 00:13:20,080 Speaker 1: around his eyes, which sparkled this genuine joy. The plan 188 00:13:20,200 --> 00:13:23,200 Speaker 1: seemed to be going smoothly. Suckers was starting to trust 189 00:13:23,240 --> 00:13:26,480 Speaker 1: me O. He bought in, or at least that's what 190 00:13:26,559 --> 00:13:30,400 Speaker 1: Meo thought. What the spy didn't know was that Zukers 191 00:13:30,440 --> 00:13:33,760 Speaker 1: too was playing a part. He pretended he was gung ho. 192 00:13:34,320 --> 00:13:36,640 Speaker 1: What the truth is. He was deeply worried by the 193 00:13:36,679 --> 00:13:39,480 Speaker 1: idea of leaving the country. He even mentioned it to 194 00:13:39,559 --> 00:13:42,840 Speaker 1: his wife. What if this was a trick? Decades on 195 00:13:42,880 --> 00:13:45,880 Speaker 1: the run had made him a warrior? He couldn't help it. 196 00:13:46,280 --> 00:13:48,600 Speaker 1: He knew the twos wanted him, he knew he was 197 00:13:48,600 --> 00:13:51,680 Speaker 1: on various lists. Who's to say this wasn't the nightmare 198 00:13:51,679 --> 00:13:55,600 Speaker 1: he'd been running away from ever since he left Latvia. 199 00:13:56,400 --> 00:13:59,480 Speaker 1: Zukers thought about it. What kuns Law offered was so 200 00:13:59,679 --> 00:14:03,440 Speaker 1: tem It was maybe his last chance at getting rich 201 00:14:03,840 --> 00:14:07,480 Speaker 1: and getting his reputation back. It was too good to 202 00:14:07,520 --> 00:14:11,480 Speaker 1: pass up. He was leaning towards going, but he wasn't sure. 203 00:14:12,280 --> 00:14:16,720 Speaker 1: He told the Brazilian agent, I've never been a coward. 204 00:14:25,520 --> 00:14:28,320 Speaker 1: This is episode seven. So if you're this far into 205 00:14:28,360 --> 00:14:32,000 Speaker 1: the story, we're assuming you're enjoying Hunting the Butcher. If 206 00:14:32,040 --> 00:14:34,520 Speaker 1: you're listening on Apple podcasts, can I ask you for 207 00:14:34,560 --> 00:14:37,720 Speaker 1: a quick favor? It only takes a minute. Find the 208 00:14:37,760 --> 00:14:40,760 Speaker 1: show on Apple Podcasts, scroll down to the section called 209 00:14:40,880 --> 00:14:44,080 Speaker 1: Ratings and Reviews and tap one of those purple stars, 210 00:14:44,640 --> 00:14:47,680 Speaker 1: hopefully it's the fifth star on the right. Then tap 211 00:14:47,720 --> 00:14:50,640 Speaker 1: that little purple length that says write a review and 212 00:14:50,720 --> 00:14:53,240 Speaker 1: leave a few words about what you think of Hunting 213 00:14:53,240 --> 00:14:56,320 Speaker 1: the Butcher. It really helps get the word out and 214 00:14:56,400 --> 00:15:00,240 Speaker 1: let other listeners know about the podcast much appreciate it did. 215 00:15:00,760 --> 00:15:07,240 Speaker 1: Now on with the show, Neal and Suckers hashed out 216 00:15:07,240 --> 00:15:09,920 Speaker 1: the details of the trip, when they would leave, how 217 00:15:09,960 --> 00:15:13,120 Speaker 1: long they would stay. Then they went to a Japanese 218 00:15:13,160 --> 00:15:16,800 Speaker 1: restaurant to celebrate. When they walked in, the matri d 219 00:15:17,040 --> 00:15:20,080 Speaker 1: rushed over. He showed the two men to a good table, 220 00:15:20,320 --> 00:15:24,360 Speaker 1: gave them v I P. Treatment. Suckers was impressed. He 221 00:15:24,400 --> 00:15:26,520 Speaker 1: didn't know that me had been there a few days earlier, 222 00:15:26,720 --> 00:15:29,440 Speaker 1: making a big splash, tipping the waiters and the matri 223 00:15:29,560 --> 00:15:33,000 Speaker 1: d heavily to make sure they remember him. He didn't 224 00:15:33,000 --> 00:15:36,840 Speaker 1: want to take any chances. We ordered rum and cokes, 225 00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:41,960 Speaker 1: and the drinks arrived. He glanced at Sukers. I noticed 226 00:15:42,480 --> 00:15:46,720 Speaker 1: he drank very slowly. He would start with a small 227 00:15:46,840 --> 00:15:51,160 Speaker 1: sip as if examining the contents of the glass because 228 00:15:51,200 --> 00:15:55,200 Speaker 1: in the late a few minutes, and only then stopped drinking. 229 00:15:56,120 --> 00:16:00,880 Speaker 1: He behaved like someone afraid of being poisoned. Slipping a 230 00:16:00,960 --> 00:16:04,080 Speaker 1: dose of poison into the butcher's cocktail had been one 231 00:16:04,120 --> 00:16:07,840 Speaker 1: method that Neo had been considering, but now it wasn't 232 00:16:07,880 --> 00:16:11,560 Speaker 1: going to work. Zukers was just too suspicious. But if 233 00:16:11,560 --> 00:16:13,920 Speaker 1: he tasted the champagne or the piece of steak that 234 00:16:14,000 --> 00:16:16,800 Speaker 1: had the poison in it and spit it out and 235 00:16:16,840 --> 00:16:19,320 Speaker 1: then pulled out the gun he always seemed to carry, 236 00:16:20,520 --> 00:16:24,520 Speaker 1: that would be bad. Neo cross poison off the list, 237 00:16:25,040 --> 00:16:28,880 Speaker 1: He'd have to find another way. So they had a 238 00:16:28,920 --> 00:16:34,560 Speaker 1: tentative agreement they would start with Uruguay. Zukers invited Kunsla 239 00:16:34,640 --> 00:16:37,640 Speaker 1: to his house for strutle and coffee and to tell 240 00:16:37,680 --> 00:16:40,200 Speaker 1: the family about the plan. It was as if he 241 00:16:40,240 --> 00:16:42,680 Speaker 1: wanted his children to see that the bad years were 242 00:16:42,720 --> 00:16:45,680 Speaker 1: almost over, that the accusations of being a Nazi in 243 00:16:45,720 --> 00:16:51,040 Speaker 1: a war criminal were beginning to fade. They made every 244 00:16:51,160 --> 00:17:06,000 Speaker 1: sentence I said and closely examined every move I made. Afterward, 245 00:17:06,359 --> 00:17:09,480 Speaker 1: Neo flew to Uruguay and its capital month of the day. 246 00:17:10,760 --> 00:17:12,240 Speaker 1: He wanted to see if it could work in the 247 00:17:12,280 --> 00:17:15,720 Speaker 1: final act of the mission. Jim Piden Lane team, the 248 00:17:15,840 --> 00:17:22,000 Speaker 1: Spanish sailor saw this mountain monte Ville, meaning I see 249 00:17:22,040 --> 00:17:25,000 Speaker 1: a mountain, And to this day we know the capital 250 00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:31,240 Speaker 1: of Uruguay as Montagdeo. Uruguay, between Brazil and Argentina is 251 00:17:31,280 --> 00:17:38,320 Speaker 1: one of the world's purest democracies. It's the traveler making 252 00:17:38,320 --> 00:17:41,359 Speaker 1: the grand tour of South America is well advised to 253 00:17:41,480 --> 00:17:45,920 Speaker 1: fars to take in the easy, congenial mood of Uruguay's metropolis. 254 00:17:47,920 --> 00:17:53,520 Speaker 1: I spoke to the noted Uruguayan writer Fernando Budizoni. Budizoni 255 00:17:53,640 --> 00:17:57,359 Speaker 1: studied the Zuker's case closely and recently published a carefully 256 00:17:57,400 --> 00:18:00,840 Speaker 1: researched book about it in Spanish and tip old los 257 00:18:00,920 --> 00:18:06,560 Speaker 1: k nunka vidaran or those who will never forget. He 258 00:18:06,680 --> 00:18:10,000 Speaker 1: described to me what Montevideo was like in those days. 259 00:18:11,240 --> 00:18:16,600 Speaker 1: Monte Video was that quiet city, somewhat gray, a few 260 00:18:16,640 --> 00:18:21,720 Speaker 1: cars on the streets, important building, well dressed as people. 261 00:18:22,480 --> 00:18:28,520 Speaker 1: It was not a dangelous city like European city, a 262 00:18:28,600 --> 00:18:35,080 Speaker 1: smaller European city, and our architecture it's very similar to 263 00:18:35,200 --> 00:18:41,200 Speaker 1: the Barcelona and Madrid architecture. Meal rented a car, studied 264 00:18:41,200 --> 00:18:44,520 Speaker 1: the map, and started searching for a house. He needed 265 00:18:44,600 --> 00:18:46,760 Speaker 1: something that looked like it could serve as the home 266 00:18:46,800 --> 00:18:51,000 Speaker 1: base for respectable company. It had to look good, it 267 00:18:51,080 --> 00:18:56,840 Speaker 1: had to fool the butcher. Sukers arrived in Montevideo a 268 00:18:56,840 --> 00:19:00,800 Speaker 1: few days later. He was super excited. He probably hadn't 269 00:19:00,880 --> 00:19:03,639 Speaker 1: left Brazil in twenty years, and now he was on 270 00:19:03,640 --> 00:19:09,040 Speaker 1: a vacation with all expenses paid. Budazoni thinks Montevideo might 271 00:19:09,080 --> 00:19:11,880 Speaker 1: have even felt like a kind of homecoming for Zukers 272 00:19:12,600 --> 00:19:16,639 Speaker 1: and for Cooks it was. I think it was like 273 00:19:16,840 --> 00:19:20,920 Speaker 1: going back to Europe after twenty year. He had never 274 00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:24,800 Speaker 1: returned as to Europe from from the end of the war. 275 00:19:26,960 --> 00:19:30,640 Speaker 1: Mio and Suckers checked into the hotel. Then when driving around, 276 00:19:31,240 --> 00:19:34,679 Speaker 1: they spoke to real estate agents, they studied listings, and 277 00:19:34,720 --> 00:19:40,040 Speaker 1: they checked out houses. This was the important thing. Neo 278 00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:43,560 Speaker 1: was starting to condition Zookers, getting it to go in 279 00:19:43,600 --> 00:19:46,399 Speaker 1: and out of strange houses. There weren't a lot of 280 00:19:46,400 --> 00:19:48,879 Speaker 1: places on the market, so Mio said they would come 281 00:19:48,880 --> 00:19:52,600 Speaker 1: back early in the spring and look again. He'd seen enough. 282 00:19:53,200 --> 00:19:58,600 Speaker 1: Uruguay was the place, and Buddhizoni understands why at that 283 00:19:58,760 --> 00:20:04,840 Speaker 1: time you why was a peaceful place, really peaceful, a 284 00:20:04,920 --> 00:20:10,320 Speaker 1: small and democratic country. We were surrounded by the dictatorship 285 00:20:10,640 --> 00:20:15,439 Speaker 1: in Argentina, in Brazil, in Paraguay, and so in my 286 00:20:15,560 --> 00:20:22,160 Speaker 1: country the life was peaceful in Uuay, unlike Brazils, there 287 00:20:22,400 --> 00:20:27,200 Speaker 1: was not the penalty, there were political freedom, and we 288 00:20:27,320 --> 00:20:34,280 Speaker 1: have good relations with Israel. There was not explicit anti 289 00:20:34,320 --> 00:20:39,679 Speaker 1: Semitism in our society, and I think that explain why 290 00:20:39,920 --> 00:20:45,000 Speaker 1: Mosal's choose your way to carry out the ambush against Cucku. 291 00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:50,600 Speaker 1: Because in Brazil he was very, very protected by the 292 00:20:50,600 --> 00:20:56,200 Speaker 1: political police, and then in Argentina still remembered the adult 293 00:20:56,200 --> 00:21:00,439 Speaker 1: Aisman case, you know, and Paraguay was the was for 294 00:21:00,600 --> 00:21:06,000 Speaker 1: many Nazis. That is why, in my opinion, you know 295 00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:09,159 Speaker 1: why he was the best alternatives, or maybe they are 296 00:21:09,280 --> 00:21:24,359 Speaker 1: the alternatives or the mos Everything was finalized. They'd hit 297 00:21:24,400 --> 00:21:27,280 Speaker 1: the capitol again in a few months and start buying buildings. 298 00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:31,040 Speaker 1: Zukers would go on the payroll. He'd finally get those 299 00:21:31,080 --> 00:21:35,040 Speaker 1: taped up glasses fixed, maybe sell off his boat rental business. 300 00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:38,520 Speaker 1: It was time to celebrate. The two men went to 301 00:21:38,520 --> 00:21:41,879 Speaker 1: a local casino in Montevideo. They played the tables, had 302 00:21:41,920 --> 00:21:45,840 Speaker 1: a few drinks, a good food. When Mia wanted roulette, 303 00:21:46,160 --> 00:21:48,920 Speaker 1: he took the winnings and gave half to Zukers. They 304 00:21:48,920 --> 00:21:51,960 Speaker 1: were partners now, it was like a down payment on 305 00:21:52,040 --> 00:21:57,240 Speaker 1: the dream. Through all of this, Zukers looked relaxed, but 306 00:21:57,320 --> 00:22:00,320 Speaker 1: it wasn't true. Later it would turn out that he'd 307 00:22:00,359 --> 00:22:03,640 Speaker 1: seen something disturbing. While they were having lunch one day, 308 00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:06,000 Speaker 1: he spotted a bunch of dark haired men and women 309 00:22:06,359 --> 00:22:09,520 Speaker 1: at a nearby table. Though he didn't tell kuns La, 310 00:22:09,840 --> 00:22:16,359 Speaker 1: he became convinced these were Israeli spies. Zucker's wife later 311 00:22:16,400 --> 00:22:19,960 Speaker 1: told police in an interview. They were sitting a few 312 00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:22,760 Speaker 1: tables away from Herbert and kuns La. They spoke in 313 00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:25,680 Speaker 1: loud voices and made a lot of noise, as is 314 00:22:25,800 --> 00:22:30,359 Speaker 1: typical of Jews. Neo had no idea this was going on. 315 00:22:30,760 --> 00:22:33,040 Speaker 1: He hadn't noticed the table. It was probably just a 316 00:22:33,080 --> 00:22:36,359 Speaker 1: bunch of locals having a good time. There was no 317 00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:39,960 Speaker 1: backup team trailing him. It was all in Suker's head. 318 00:22:41,040 --> 00:22:43,159 Speaker 1: It was the latest in a series of things that 319 00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:47,480 Speaker 1: worried me. Oh Zuker's tasting his drink for poison, the guns, 320 00:22:47,720 --> 00:22:51,680 Speaker 1: the mention of Joseph Kramer, the Nazi commander. Something else 321 00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:53,920 Speaker 1: came up. A few days later, while they were still 322 00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:57,080 Speaker 1: in Uruguay, they went out for dinner, and after they 323 00:22:57,119 --> 00:23:01,320 Speaker 1: sat down, Zuker spoke to the waiter in Kiddish. He 324 00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:03,240 Speaker 1: was checking to see if the guy knew the language, 325 00:23:03,720 --> 00:23:06,639 Speaker 1: that is, if he was Jewish. The waiter had no 326 00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:10,840 Speaker 1: idea what Sucers was saying. So the butcher switched to Spanish, 327 00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:14,840 Speaker 1: but Mio could not believe it would The butcher, ever 328 00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:19,040 Speaker 1: calmed down, he seemed even more paranoid now that he 329 00:23:19,080 --> 00:23:33,520 Speaker 1: was out of Brazil. It bothered Meo. In fact, the 330 00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:37,440 Speaker 1: mission was beginning to weigh on Meo. He not only 331 00:23:37,520 --> 00:23:40,560 Speaker 1: had to deal with Suker's mistrust, but the anxiety of 332 00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:44,280 Speaker 1: always waiting to be discovered, of being arrested and put 333 00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:50,040 Speaker 1: on trial. He really missed his family. After Abraham, the 334 00:23:50,119 --> 00:23:53,800 Speaker 1: former Massad agent, knows what that's like. And I can 335 00:23:53,840 --> 00:23:57,480 Speaker 1: tell you frankly that I lost most of my friends 336 00:23:57,560 --> 00:24:01,760 Speaker 1: because I was I isolated. That used to fly here. 337 00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:04,720 Speaker 1: And even when you walk in Israel, you walk from 338 00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:07,280 Speaker 1: it's not nine to five, you can walk from six 339 00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:12,560 Speaker 1: till midnight every day. You work very hard, and and 340 00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:15,120 Speaker 1: you don't see your kids maybe or you can see 341 00:24:15,119 --> 00:24:17,960 Speaker 1: them only in the morning before you go again to 342 00:24:18,119 --> 00:24:20,439 Speaker 1: your walk. So in this kind of work, and you 343 00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:24,560 Speaker 1: have secrets all the time. Usually you you don't have friends. Yeah, 344 00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:29,119 Speaker 1: maybe you have friends from Mossad, okay, but yes, you're paid. 345 00:24:31,119 --> 00:24:34,240 Speaker 1: It was a lonely existence in which he never got 346 00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:37,600 Speaker 1: to reveal his true self and was constantly afraid of 347 00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:41,399 Speaker 1: slipping up and destroying not only the mission but his 348 00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:46,119 Speaker 1: own life. Every double agent faced the same thing, but 349 00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:48,480 Speaker 1: now me, it was really starting to feel it. It 350 00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:51,399 Speaker 1: was the price of being undercover. Just because he was 351 00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:55,680 Speaker 1: good at it didn't mean it was easy. Here's Gad Samran, 352 00:24:56,160 --> 00:24:59,239 Speaker 1: the other ex Messade agent you've heard from, talking about this. 353 00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:02,800 Speaker 1: This is quite unique. I can I can only you know, 354 00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:07,879 Speaker 1: given my postal account, and had also worked under cover 355 00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:12,840 Speaker 1: also in Arab countries. It's a huge mental Boden and 356 00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:16,320 Speaker 1: and and Neo. I've done it so naturally that I 357 00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:21,400 Speaker 1: think that the future worlds maybe he could have done 358 00:25:21,440 --> 00:25:27,920 Speaker 1: a very nice career. Habima Israeli National Theater for MEO 359 00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:31,200 Speaker 1: Act one was coming to an end. It was time 360 00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:34,040 Speaker 1: for the Massad agent to return to Paris. He'd gotten 361 00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:36,520 Speaker 1: as close at the butcher as was possible. He had 362 00:25:36,560 --> 00:25:39,000 Speaker 1: all the information on Uruguay and what it would take 363 00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:41,440 Speaker 1: to carry out a mission there, and he was beginning 364 00:25:41,440 --> 00:25:46,720 Speaker 1: to sketch out the details of the assassination. They parted 365 00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:50,360 Speaker 1: like old friends. Neo told Suckers they would see each 366 00:25:50,400 --> 00:26:05,600 Speaker 1: other soon, and then he boarded a flight back to France. Hey, 367 00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:08,760 Speaker 1: this is Stephen Talty, the host of this podcast, Good 368 00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:12,040 Speaker 1: Assassin's Hunting the Butcher. As I've mentioned a couple of 369 00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:15,240 Speaker 1: times on the show, this podcast project came out of 370 00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:18,200 Speaker 1: my work on a related book called The Good Assassin. 371 00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:21,040 Speaker 1: If you want to explore other parts of this story, 372 00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:24,080 Speaker 1: check it out. It's not just a book version of 373 00:26:24,080 --> 00:26:27,479 Speaker 1: the podcast. I spend time on different aspects of the mission. 374 00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:30,679 Speaker 1: There are chapters diving into World War Two history that 375 00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:33,560 Speaker 1: we didn't cover in the podcast, and the book works 376 00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:36,280 Speaker 1: as a kind of a companion to the listening experience. 377 00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:40,639 Speaker 1: The paperback edition just arrived. You can purchase a copy 378 00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:44,840 Speaker 1: of The Good Assassin on Amazon, Apple Books, and on 379 00:26:44,920 --> 00:27:02,760 Speaker 1: bookshop dot Org. Thanks. While in Brazil, New had little 380 00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:05,439 Speaker 1: idea what was going on in Germany and in the 381 00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:09,520 Speaker 1: whole amnesty debate. There were articles about it even in 382 00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:13,240 Speaker 1: the South Pollo papers. It was turning into a global issue. 383 00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:16,919 Speaker 1: Here's what some of the American radio coverage sounded like. 384 00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:21,480 Speaker 1: The German constitution places a maximum twenty year limit on 385 00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:25,400 Speaker 1: the prosecution of any crimes people arose to power by 386 00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:29,160 Speaker 1: tampering with a self same constitution, and the bond government 387 00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:33,040 Speaker 1: wants no repetition of that it believes that the Democratic 388 00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:38,040 Speaker 1: Society for a Sunnian violability of basic law. This is 389 00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:40,560 Speaker 1: not to say that the West German government is not 390 00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:44,679 Speaker 1: doing anything about these problems, if legal experts are studying 391 00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:48,040 Speaker 1: the statue of limitations, but the statue of limitations has 392 00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:51,439 Speaker 1: an importance aside from the question of punishing the criminals. 393 00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:55,240 Speaker 1: The fact that twenty years have passed means that almost 394 00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:58,680 Speaker 1: half of West Germany's fifty million people are too young 395 00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:01,200 Speaker 1: to remember anything at all a brought the war or 396 00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:05,160 Speaker 1: Hitler in this thousand year right. A very high percentage 397 00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:08,240 Speaker 1: reached stage of awareness only in the ten years since 398 00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:11,639 Speaker 1: the country was made independent. It is quite natural that 399 00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:14,639 Speaker 1: these younger people are sick and tired of hearing about 400 00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:18,119 Speaker 1: the sins of their elders. Not that they deny those sins. 401 00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:20,840 Speaker 1: They are aware of them, but they leave the denials 402 00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:27,200 Speaker 1: to those more guilty than they m But the radio 403 00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:32,000 Speaker 1: reports and newspaper articles didn't tell what was happening behind 404 00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:40,880 Speaker 1: the scenes. The two Nazi hunters to Via Friedman and 405 00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:45,160 Speaker 1: Simon Wiesenthal, We're working on issue nearly full time, and 406 00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:48,200 Speaker 1: they were starting to see results. A few American companies 407 00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:52,280 Speaker 1: announced the boycott of German goods. This upset a lot 408 00:28:52,280 --> 00:28:55,080 Speaker 1: of people. In Berlin, the German ambassador said there was 409 00:28:55,320 --> 00:28:59,600 Speaker 1: excessive agitation going on in the United States. People were 410 00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:02,400 Speaker 1: writing letters, a lot of them, which is what you 411 00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:04,840 Speaker 1: did in the mid sixties when you wanted to pressure 412 00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:08,920 Speaker 1: a government. German embassies and consulates around the world have 413 00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:13,600 Speaker 1: been bombarded with petitions and deputations, wrote the Los Angeles Times, 414 00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:17,880 Speaker 1: letters and telegrams in the thousands. Protesters showed up on 415 00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:21,040 Speaker 1: the streets in New York. Dozens of men and women 416 00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:24,440 Speaker 1: marched up and down Park Avenue with science reading no 417 00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:29,360 Speaker 1: Statute of Limitations for mass murder and Jewish survivors of 418 00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:37,920 Speaker 1: Nazi persecution. Vicenthal was spending money. He bought advertising space 419 00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:41,080 Speaker 1: in newspapers all over the world and published the letter 420 00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:46,280 Speaker 1: he'd written, along with the signatures of the two famous scientists. Politicians, 421 00:29:46,600 --> 00:29:50,240 Speaker 1: writers and others signed it. It got a lot of attention. 422 00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:54,440 Speaker 1: Someone even gave Visenthal the private number of former First 423 00:29:54,520 --> 00:29:57,800 Speaker 1: Lady Jackie Kennedy, who made calls to help the movement. 424 00:29:58,720 --> 00:30:02,000 Speaker 1: It was encouraging. Still, the only people that really mattered 425 00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:05,120 Speaker 1: with the men and women in the German Parliament and 426 00:30:05,200 --> 00:30:10,720 Speaker 1: what they were thinking. Nobody really knew. The debate played 427 00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:13,360 Speaker 1: out in German newspapers and on the radio and TV. 428 00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:17,680 Speaker 1: Supporters of the amnesty argued that jailing more x Nazis, 429 00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:20,360 Speaker 1: many of whom held high positions and companies in the government, 430 00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:24,720 Speaker 1: would crippled Germany's economy. The Justice Ministry of Germany in 431 00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:29,000 Speaker 1: nineteen sixty four, for example, was almost identical to Hitler's 432 00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:32,520 Speaker 1: Reich Ministry of Justice. The faces were mostly the same, 433 00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:35,080 Speaker 1: only the name plates on the doors had been changed. 434 00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:38,240 Speaker 1: What were you going to do? Empty the place out 435 00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:40,280 Speaker 1: because of what those men had done during the war? 436 00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:43,680 Speaker 1: Who would run the courts? Who would run the country? 437 00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:47,920 Speaker 1: They weren't estimated two hundred blood judges, men who had 438 00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:51,239 Speaker 1: served under the Third Reich still on the bench. If 439 00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:53,960 Speaker 1: Freeman and the other activists truly wanted to jail every 440 00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:57,400 Speaker 1: Nazi and participate in the murder of a Jew, Germany 441 00:30:57,440 --> 00:31:00,600 Speaker 1: could come to a grinding halt. As count or intuitive 442 00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:03,320 Speaker 1: as it sounded. If the world truly wanted the new 443 00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:07,000 Speaker 1: Germany to flourish, it had to allow some Nazis to 444 00:31:07,080 --> 00:31:11,440 Speaker 1: remain free. If you didn't, people would get angry. They'd 445 00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:15,880 Speaker 1: resent us even more than they already did. It was 446 00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:19,480 Speaker 1: a weird idea. If you prosecute Nazis for murderer, they'll 447 00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:23,720 Speaker 1: get more Nazis, not fewer. The parallel was World War One. 448 00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:27,320 Speaker 1: The harsh terms of the Versailles peace treaty had triggered 449 00:31:27,320 --> 00:31:31,040 Speaker 1: a conspiracy theory among Germans, the famous stabbed in the 450 00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:35,080 Speaker 1: back idea. Hitler had been obsessed by this theory. Now 451 00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:38,120 Speaker 1: the pro statute forces were saying that more Nazi trials 452 00:31:38,280 --> 00:31:42,240 Speaker 1: would start a backlash. Some sense to warning, if you 453 00:31:42,280 --> 00:31:47,200 Speaker 1: don't back off, will stop feeling remorseful and start feeling angry. 454 00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:51,400 Speaker 1: Behind such arguments lay an unpleasant truth, one that to 455 00:31:51,560 --> 00:31:55,720 Speaker 1: Via Freedman had known for years. Hitler had enjoyed far 456 00:31:55,840 --> 00:31:59,719 Speaker 1: wider and deeper support than anyone in Germany wanted to admit. 457 00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:07,000 Speaker 1: The former Auschwitz judge Heinz Dukes would later say approximately 458 00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:12,960 Speaker 1: ninety percent of the Germans, as activists and fellow travelers, 459 00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:19,600 Speaker 1: translated the murderous ideology of the National socialist regime into action. 460 00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:26,080 Speaker 1: Germans preferred the guilty few theory of the Holocaust, the 461 00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:28,960 Speaker 1: idea that Hitler and a handful of other men had 462 00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:32,720 Speaker 1: forced Germans to become accomplices in the genocide of Jews. 463 00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:37,760 Speaker 1: This absolved most citizens of their own guilt. Individual Germans 464 00:32:37,800 --> 00:32:41,400 Speaker 1: almost never admitted playing a part in the Holocaust. If 465 00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:44,720 Speaker 1: trials were allowed to go on indefinitely and prosecutors were 466 00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:47,680 Speaker 1: free to track down every officer and soldier who had 467 00:32:47,720 --> 00:32:51,080 Speaker 1: murdered somebody during the war, a deeper and more disturbing 468 00:32:51,120 --> 00:32:54,960 Speaker 1: portrait of the Holocaust would emerge. This is what people 469 00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:59,000 Speaker 1: were saying, as if that was a bad thing. But 470 00:32:59,120 --> 00:33:02,280 Speaker 1: that's exactly what free Men and the others wanted. They 471 00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:05,240 Speaker 1: believed the full truth of what happened during the war 472 00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:10,360 Speaker 1: had never been acknowledged. Here's Freemen from a memoir he 473 00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:15,880 Speaker 1: wrote in the early sixties. Millions of Germans today were 474 00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:19,880 Speaker 1: a decade and a half ago Nazis thoughtful people are 475 00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:22,640 Speaker 1: troubled by the fact that the new generation rising in 476 00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:26,440 Speaker 1: Germany today does not fully know the enormity of the 477 00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:30,280 Speaker 1: crimes that were committed. The textbooks in Germany do not 478 00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:34,160 Speaker 1: spell out the hideous, unspeakable crimes that were committed by 479 00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:40,200 Speaker 1: men and women who are themselves parents, grandparents, relatives of 480 00:33:40,280 --> 00:33:44,520 Speaker 1: young Germans. How can we be sure that the leader 481 00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:48,720 Speaker 1: loving German people will not again follow in the footsteps 482 00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:53,080 Speaker 1: of a power mad dictator if today's generation of Germans 483 00:33:53,120 --> 00:33:57,720 Speaker 1: does not know and fully understand the history of the 484 00:33:57,840 --> 00:34:04,440 Speaker 1: Nazi period. Freeman didn't know about Massad's mission to assassinate 485 00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:07,720 Speaker 1: Herbert Suckers, but there's little doubt he would have approved. 486 00:34:08,640 --> 00:34:11,719 Speaker 1: He was working the corridors of power. But his campaign 487 00:34:12,160 --> 00:34:16,800 Speaker 1: lacks something. It needed a face, a real life monster, 488 00:34:17,200 --> 00:34:19,399 Speaker 1: to show what kind of Nazis were still walking free 489 00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:23,480 Speaker 1: in the world. Hitler was gone, Doctor Mangela was in hiding. 490 00:34:24,160 --> 00:34:27,720 Speaker 1: They needed someone who done terrible things and was still free. 491 00:34:28,520 --> 00:34:37,759 Speaker 1: That role would be filled by Herbert Suckers. It was 492 00:34:37,840 --> 00:34:43,600 Speaker 1: late October. Neo was playing touchdown in Paris. He went 493 00:34:43,640 --> 00:34:46,760 Speaker 1: to his apartment, kissed his wife, played with his kids. 494 00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:49,040 Speaker 1: He slept in his own bed for the first time 495 00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:53,719 Speaker 1: in six weeks. He was himself again. He didn't have 496 00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:57,399 Speaker 1: to pretend. After a few days, your reefs summoned Meo. 497 00:34:59,080 --> 00:35:01,400 Speaker 1: He went back to the Massi department to meet the 498 00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:04,720 Speaker 1: three other men Youreif had selected for the killed team, 499 00:35:04,920 --> 00:35:11,400 Speaker 1: Laser Sudi, zev Amid and multi Ka. Fear Meal had 500 00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:14,840 Speaker 1: brought a suitcase back with him from Brazil. It was 501 00:35:14,920 --> 00:35:20,280 Speaker 1: filled with stuff, notes, maps, flight schedules. You had saved 502 00:35:20,320 --> 00:35:22,960 Speaker 1: everything that had the smallest part to play in the operation. 503 00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:26,920 Speaker 1: He'd written out a description of Zuker's home to lay 504 00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:30,920 Speaker 1: out the drawer with the guns everything. There was a 505 00:35:30,960 --> 00:35:34,600 Speaker 1: section on how scarce rental cars were in Uruguay. The 506 00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:37,520 Speaker 1: team would need multiple cars, so that was something they'd 507 00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:39,720 Speaker 1: have to take care of as soon as they landed. 508 00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:43,520 Speaker 1: Meal listed what documents you needed to check into a 509 00:35:43,560 --> 00:35:47,200 Speaker 1: hotel as a foreigner, and a master list of hotels 510 00:35:47,239 --> 00:35:50,560 Speaker 1: they could use. The men began sorting the documents and 511 00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:54,480 Speaker 1: putting them into separate files. Now the team had to 512 00:35:54,520 --> 00:35:57,280 Speaker 1: sort through it all and begin checking and double checking 513 00:35:57,440 --> 00:36:01,280 Speaker 1: every detail. They had to decide on how to eliminate 514 00:36:01,320 --> 00:36:03,919 Speaker 1: the butcher, and they had to get their own cover 515 00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:10,120 Speaker 1: I entities. The team now had five months until March, 516 00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:14,080 Speaker 1: five months until the vote in the German Parliament that 517 00:36:14,120 --> 00:36:18,680 Speaker 1: would spell victory or defeat. They felt the weight of 518 00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:23,400 Speaker 1: history on them. They were thinking of future generations. So 519 00:36:23,640 --> 00:36:26,520 Speaker 1: much rested on this mission, and if they could actually 520 00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:31,680 Speaker 1: pull it off, it wouldn't be until much later, In fact, 521 00:36:32,040 --> 00:36:35,680 Speaker 1: until it was too late that they realized the mistakes 522 00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:52,000 Speaker 1: they were making. Good assassins. Hunting the Butcher is a 523 00:36:52,040 --> 00:36:55,800 Speaker 1: production of Diversion Podcasts in association with I Heart Radio. 524 00:36:56,719 --> 00:37:00,440 Speaker 1: This season is written and hosted by Stephen Tulty, produced 525 00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:04,719 Speaker 1: and directed by Scott Waxman and Jacob Bronstein. Executive producers 526 00:37:04,719 --> 00:37:09,000 Speaker 1: Scott Waxman and Mark Francis. Story editing by Jacob Bronstein, 527 00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:14,360 Speaker 1: with editorial direction from Scott Waxman and Mangesh At Tickedur Editing, 528 00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:17,880 Speaker 1: mixing and sound designed by Mark Francis with the voices 529 00:37:17,960 --> 00:37:23,960 Speaker 1: of Nick Afka, Thomas Armory, Angle, Andrew Polk, Mindy Escobar, Leants, 530 00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:29,480 Speaker 1: Steve Rautman, and Stefan Rudnitsky. Theme music by Tyler Cash. 531 00:37:30,160 --> 00:37:34,640 Speaker 1: Archival research by Adam Shapiro. Thanks to Oran Rosenbaum at 532 00:37:34,719 --> 00:38:00,040 Speaker 1: ut A Diversion Podcasts. It