1 00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:06,200 Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff Mom Never told you from house top 2 00:00:06,240 --> 00:00:14,080 Speaker 1: boards dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm 3 00:00:14,160 --> 00:00:18,400 Speaker 1: Kristen and I'm Caroline. And last fall, a series of 4 00:00:18,440 --> 00:00:21,880 Speaker 1: greeting cards caught mine and a lot of people on 5 00:00:21,920 --> 00:00:26,799 Speaker 1: the internet's attention, which might sound kind of strange because 6 00:00:26,920 --> 00:00:30,480 Speaker 1: greeting cards. Why why the greeting cards matter? Well, these 7 00:00:30,480 --> 00:00:35,159 Speaker 1: were greeting cards that you've probably never really seen before 8 00:00:35,200 --> 00:00:39,240 Speaker 1: because they were greeting cards about miscarriage. And I think 9 00:00:39,240 --> 00:00:42,839 Speaker 1: what's so refreshing and what probably grabbed so many people's 10 00:00:42,880 --> 00:00:48,199 Speaker 1: attention is that the messages on the cards are so open, honest, 11 00:00:48,640 --> 00:00:51,720 Speaker 1: straightforward and to the point, uh, their messages that you 12 00:00:51,720 --> 00:00:55,680 Speaker 1: don't typically see in your average uh sympathy card. Well, yeah, 13 00:00:55,680 --> 00:00:59,160 Speaker 1: because we don't even talk about miscarriage to begin with. 14 00:00:59,320 --> 00:01:04,480 Speaker 1: And when we did a podcast about miscarriage a little 15 00:01:04,520 --> 00:01:07,720 Speaker 1: while back, and one of the things that we focused 16 00:01:07,760 --> 00:01:11,320 Speaker 1: in on is the stigma and taboo around it and 17 00:01:11,360 --> 00:01:14,399 Speaker 1: the fact that a lot of people who experienced them 18 00:01:14,600 --> 00:01:18,280 Speaker 1: rarely talk about it um and end up going through 19 00:01:18,360 --> 00:01:24,080 Speaker 1: sometimes a private grieving process. And so Dr Jessica Zucker, 20 00:01:24,200 --> 00:01:27,400 Speaker 1: who were talking to today, who's an l A based 21 00:01:27,680 --> 00:01:32,840 Speaker 1: clinical psychologist and writer specializing in women's reproductive and maternal 22 00:01:32,920 --> 00:01:40,360 Speaker 1: mental health started this line of greeting cards too foster 23 00:01:40,480 --> 00:01:44,680 Speaker 1: these kinds of conversations UM and myth busting as well 24 00:01:44,800 --> 00:01:48,640 Speaker 1: around miscarriage that we so sorely need, and they were 25 00:01:48,680 --> 00:01:53,440 Speaker 1: inspired by the response that she had after launching the 26 00:01:53,480 --> 00:01:58,960 Speaker 1: hashtag I had a miscarriage in UM, timed with a 27 00:01:59,040 --> 00:02:03,560 Speaker 1: New York Times p that she published about her miscarriage experience, 28 00:02:03,600 --> 00:02:09,040 Speaker 1: which prompted just an outpouring of responses from for mostly women, 29 00:02:09,080 --> 00:02:12,799 Speaker 1: thanking her for saying things that had happened to them similarly, 30 00:02:12,880 --> 00:02:16,280 Speaker 1: but that they've never really felt comfortable or free to 31 00:02:16,320 --> 00:02:20,080 Speaker 1: talk about. Yeah, because despite the fact that about fifteen 32 00:02:20,240 --> 00:02:25,560 Speaker 1: percent of recognized pregnancies end in miscarriage, there is this 33 00:02:25,720 --> 00:02:29,959 Speaker 1: culture of silence and shame and stigma around it that 34 00:02:30,200 --> 00:02:34,240 Speaker 1: somehow it's your own personal failing as a person or 35 00:02:34,280 --> 00:02:37,160 Speaker 1: as a parent that this happened, and that couldn't be 36 00:02:37,200 --> 00:02:40,560 Speaker 1: further from the truth. And breaking that silence and also 37 00:02:41,120 --> 00:02:44,320 Speaker 1: providing more education around this issue has really become a 38 00:02:44,360 --> 00:02:48,560 Speaker 1: personal mission for Dr Zucker, who we're talking to UM 39 00:02:48,560 --> 00:02:52,080 Speaker 1: and for a little bit of background on her, she 40 00:02:52,160 --> 00:02:55,000 Speaker 1: earned a master's ny U in public health with a 41 00:02:55,040 --> 00:02:58,760 Speaker 1: focus on international reproductive issues, and she worked for the 42 00:02:58,800 --> 00:03:02,200 Speaker 1: Harvard School of Public Health. So, in other words, she's 43 00:03:02,200 --> 00:03:05,640 Speaker 1: a real smart lady. Um, and she also earned another 44 00:03:05,720 --> 00:03:09,280 Speaker 1: master's in psychology and human development at Harvard with a 45 00:03:09,320 --> 00:03:14,680 Speaker 1: goal of shifting from global to an interpersonal focus. And 46 00:03:14,720 --> 00:03:19,680 Speaker 1: when she experienced though the sixteen week miscarriage, as she's 47 00:03:19,680 --> 00:03:23,639 Speaker 1: written about, it really again shifted the focus of her 48 00:03:23,800 --> 00:03:26,720 Speaker 1: entire career, as she'll talk to us more about in 49 00:03:26,720 --> 00:03:29,800 Speaker 1: this episode. But we were so happy to have a 50 00:03:29,880 --> 00:03:34,880 Speaker 1: chance to hear from Dr Zucker not only about the 51 00:03:35,120 --> 00:03:38,760 Speaker 1: I Had a Miscarriage greeting cards, but also her insights 52 00:03:38,840 --> 00:03:43,600 Speaker 1: on on these cultural issues that we need to untangle. Yeah, 53 00:03:43,640 --> 00:03:51,520 Speaker 1: and so now let's hear from Dr Zucker. Well, Dr Zucker, 54 00:03:51,600 --> 00:03:54,520 Speaker 1: to get things started, would you mind introducing yourself to 55 00:03:54,800 --> 00:03:56,920 Speaker 1: our listeners and tell them a little bit about your 56 00:03:56,960 --> 00:04:00,640 Speaker 1: background and what you do. Sure, thank you so much 57 00:04:00,640 --> 00:04:03,360 Speaker 1: for having me on your show. Um. My name is 58 00:04:03,440 --> 00:04:06,880 Speaker 1: Dr Jessica Zooker, and I'm a Los Angeles based psychologist 59 00:04:07,040 --> 00:04:11,960 Speaker 1: specializing in women's reproductive and maternal mental health. Last year 60 00:04:12,520 --> 00:04:17,520 Speaker 1: I launched the I Had a miscarriage hashtag campaign with 61 00:04:17,680 --> 00:04:21,919 Speaker 1: my first New York Times Peace and this October I 62 00:04:22,080 --> 00:04:25,560 Speaker 1: launched a line of pregnancy Lost cards. Now you're really 63 00:04:25,600 --> 00:04:31,640 Speaker 1: curious about whether you had envisioned these greeting cards sort 64 00:04:31,640 --> 00:04:35,039 Speaker 1: of as you were putting the hashtag together, or whether 65 00:04:35,080 --> 00:04:37,520 Speaker 1: that was something that came afterwards, sort of how did 66 00:04:37,520 --> 00:04:40,640 Speaker 1: you how did all of that fall into place? Well, 67 00:04:40,839 --> 00:04:45,640 Speaker 1: actually know at that time, um, well, soon after my miscarriage. 68 00:04:45,640 --> 00:04:50,080 Speaker 1: So my miscarriage was a sixteen week loss, uh three 69 00:04:50,160 --> 00:04:54,760 Speaker 1: years ago, and I, you know, had specialized in this 70 00:04:54,920 --> 00:05:00,840 Speaker 1: particular field long before I experienced miscarriage myself, and as 71 00:05:00,839 --> 00:05:03,400 Speaker 1: a psychologist, it was sort of you know, tricky to 72 00:05:04,160 --> 00:05:06,479 Speaker 1: think through do I want to put sort of my 73 00:05:06,600 --> 00:05:10,720 Speaker 1: personal story out there in the world, um, you know, 74 00:05:10,839 --> 00:05:15,320 Speaker 1: because typically therapy is obviously so much more about the 75 00:05:15,640 --> 00:05:19,080 Speaker 1: patient and the person's story who's sitting in front of me. 76 00:05:19,600 --> 00:05:23,679 Speaker 1: But I felt like it would model something that I 77 00:05:23,680 --> 00:05:27,440 Speaker 1: strongly believe in, which is this idea that you know. Unfortunately, 78 00:05:27,480 --> 00:05:30,240 Speaker 1: the research shows that so many women are reporting feeling 79 00:05:30,279 --> 00:05:33,000 Speaker 1: a sense of guilt and shame and self blame after 80 00:05:33,040 --> 00:05:37,240 Speaker 1: a pregnancy loss, and so by initiating this hashtag campaign, 81 00:05:37,279 --> 00:05:40,800 Speaker 1: it was sort of a way to UM and you know, 82 00:05:41,320 --> 00:05:44,279 Speaker 1: alongside the essay that I wrote, which had the you know, 83 00:05:44,320 --> 00:05:48,200 Speaker 1: all the details of my traumatic loss. You know, it's 84 00:05:48,240 --> 00:05:51,159 Speaker 1: a way to sort of model this idea that we 85 00:05:51,200 --> 00:05:53,839 Speaker 1: can share our stories and we don't infect each other 86 00:05:53,960 --> 00:05:57,200 Speaker 1: by sharing our stories. We can't you know, have a 87 00:05:57,279 --> 00:06:00,560 Speaker 1: loss because we're talking about loss. And we all sort 88 00:06:00,560 --> 00:06:04,839 Speaker 1: of of course know that UM intellectually, but it seems 89 00:06:04,880 --> 00:06:09,480 Speaker 1: that people you know are UM somewhat you know, afraid 90 00:06:09,560 --> 00:06:13,560 Speaker 1: to to share about loss in our culture. UM talking 91 00:06:13,600 --> 00:06:16,440 Speaker 1: about out of water losses and something that that people 92 00:06:16,480 --> 00:06:21,080 Speaker 1: tend to do. So at the time, I was writing 93 00:06:21,120 --> 00:06:26,600 Speaker 1: mostly about the politics of pregnancy lass and then with 94 00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:32,920 Speaker 1: that particular piece I got very personal. And then I 95 00:06:32,960 --> 00:06:35,880 Speaker 1: went on to do an illustrated piece that's up on 96 00:06:35,960 --> 00:06:42,520 Speaker 1: modern lass UM with this really talented cartoonist UM, moving 97 00:06:42,560 --> 00:06:45,640 Speaker 1: away from the essay and sort of trying to give 98 00:06:45,680 --> 00:06:48,359 Speaker 1: people basically like a how to guide on what to 99 00:06:48,400 --> 00:06:51,240 Speaker 1: say and what not to say after somebody experiences a 100 00:06:51,279 --> 00:06:54,640 Speaker 1: pregnancy loss. So soon after that, I think that was 101 00:06:54,680 --> 00:06:58,760 Speaker 1: in the summer UM I conceived of the idea of 102 00:06:58,920 --> 00:07:01,680 Speaker 1: creating these cars. It's and basically it felt like a 103 00:07:01,839 --> 00:07:05,799 Speaker 1: natural next step, you know, sort of trying to reach 104 00:07:05,880 --> 00:07:08,440 Speaker 1: as many people as possible. I have a background in 105 00:07:08,440 --> 00:07:12,000 Speaker 1: international public health and worked in international women's health for 106 00:07:12,080 --> 00:07:16,200 Speaker 1: quite some time, and so I wanted to reach people 107 00:07:16,280 --> 00:07:19,040 Speaker 1: who I might never see in my office. And I 108 00:07:19,080 --> 00:07:22,160 Speaker 1: wanted to provide a way for people to actually connect 109 00:07:22,280 --> 00:07:26,000 Speaker 1: after loss, rather than sort of going to this typical, 110 00:07:26,760 --> 00:07:30,040 Speaker 1: you know, place of silence or oh I just didn't 111 00:07:30,040 --> 00:07:32,280 Speaker 1: know what to say, so I didn't say anything at all. 112 00:07:32,360 --> 00:07:37,880 Speaker 1: This way people can actually connect and provide support in 113 00:07:37,920 --> 00:07:42,440 Speaker 1: a meaningful way. Well, one important conversation that your card 114 00:07:42,600 --> 00:07:46,040 Speaker 1: sparked was what not to say to people in this 115 00:07:46,160 --> 00:07:50,080 Speaker 1: situation and why are sentiments like it happens for a reason, 116 00:07:50,480 --> 00:07:52,720 Speaker 1: or well, at least you know, you can get pregnant 117 00:07:52,920 --> 00:07:59,600 Speaker 1: often so unhelpful. True, people say these things, and I 118 00:07:59,720 --> 00:08:05,440 Speaker 1: think they think somehow that it's helpful or supportive or 119 00:08:05,520 --> 00:08:09,480 Speaker 1: loving by you know, but they don't understand that that 120 00:08:09,640 --> 00:08:14,720 Speaker 1: potentially this minimizes the magnitude of the loss. And for 121 00:08:14,760 --> 00:08:17,200 Speaker 1: a lot of women, you know, a loss of six 122 00:08:17,240 --> 00:08:20,800 Speaker 1: weeks is incredibly meaningful, and for others it isn't. And 123 00:08:21,440 --> 00:08:26,360 Speaker 1: so we can't assume to know how people feel after loss, 124 00:08:26,440 --> 00:08:34,240 Speaker 1: and so to kind of about you know, various latitudes. Um, 125 00:08:34,320 --> 00:08:39,000 Speaker 1: it's just often more hurtful than helpful. The more I've 126 00:08:39,040 --> 00:08:41,480 Speaker 1: thought about these, though, the more I realized that I 127 00:08:41,520 --> 00:08:43,760 Speaker 1: think it's actually a way for the person who's saying 128 00:08:43,800 --> 00:08:46,240 Speaker 1: them to feel better rather than the person they're saying 129 00:08:46,280 --> 00:08:49,480 Speaker 1: it too. So when it comes to sort of the 130 00:08:49,480 --> 00:08:52,120 Speaker 1: opposite of people saying things to make anyone feel better, 131 00:08:52,160 --> 00:08:57,160 Speaker 1: but the more typical silence and the internalized shame that 132 00:08:57,200 --> 00:09:00,520 Speaker 1: can happen around miscarriage, what do you think is in 133 00:09:01,480 --> 00:09:03,920 Speaker 1: in our culture that kind of promotes it And how 134 00:09:04,040 --> 00:09:09,360 Speaker 1: does silencing and not talking about it impact the physical 135 00:09:09,480 --> 00:09:15,360 Speaker 1: and emotional healing process. I think our culture struggles, particularly 136 00:09:15,559 --> 00:09:20,080 Speaker 1: when it comes to out of order losses. So when 137 00:09:20,080 --> 00:09:23,640 Speaker 1: a grandparent dies, people typically know what to do, you know, 138 00:09:23,679 --> 00:09:26,640 Speaker 1: they send a card, they send flowers, they send food, 139 00:09:26,679 --> 00:09:30,280 Speaker 1: they come, you know, they attend the funeral. But with 140 00:09:30,360 --> 00:09:35,240 Speaker 1: a loss like this, people really aren't armed with the 141 00:09:35,280 --> 00:09:39,360 Speaker 1: tools um to talk about it or to sort of 142 00:09:39,520 --> 00:09:46,800 Speaker 1: extend um support because we get just I guess overwhelmed 143 00:09:46,920 --> 00:09:50,120 Speaker 1: by not knowing you know, what to do, and so 144 00:09:50,520 --> 00:09:54,400 Speaker 1: the silence often comes though from not knowing what to do. 145 00:09:55,120 --> 00:09:59,280 Speaker 1: And I think I'm trying with the cards to encourage 146 00:09:59,360 --> 00:10:02,440 Speaker 1: people to almost no longer be able to say this, 147 00:10:02,679 --> 00:10:06,360 Speaker 1: or no longer be able to have an excuse really 148 00:10:06,480 --> 00:10:12,559 Speaker 1: to go silent, because women and you know their partners 149 00:10:12,600 --> 00:10:16,920 Speaker 1: are often in a lot of emotional pain after a 150 00:10:16,960 --> 00:10:22,559 Speaker 1: loss and feel quite confused about the future, bewildered by 151 00:10:22,559 --> 00:10:27,360 Speaker 1: what happened, maybe feeling alienated from their bodies, maybe you know, 152 00:10:27,880 --> 00:10:32,640 Speaker 1: incredibly afraid of the future. So many different things come up, 153 00:10:33,240 --> 00:10:39,120 Speaker 1: and so it's important that we have more of an 154 00:10:39,160 --> 00:10:44,120 Speaker 1: openness and can more easily talk about grief and loss 155 00:10:44,640 --> 00:10:49,040 Speaker 1: and sort of normalize this um And I think in 156 00:10:49,120 --> 00:10:52,280 Speaker 1: part because no one has sort of met this, this thing, 157 00:10:52,520 --> 00:10:56,280 Speaker 1: this developing thing or you know, this the fetus or whatever, 158 00:10:57,920 --> 00:11:04,240 Speaker 1: people don't sort of acknowledge it as a true loss, right, 159 00:11:04,280 --> 00:11:07,160 Speaker 1: so they go on to sort of potentially minimize it 160 00:11:07,200 --> 00:11:10,160 Speaker 1: by saying, well, you know, something's wrong with the baby anywhere. 161 00:11:10,160 --> 00:11:13,480 Speaker 1: Aren't you just glad that it happened this way? And 162 00:11:14,160 --> 00:11:17,680 Speaker 1: you know, looking for silver lining or bright spots when 163 00:11:17,720 --> 00:11:20,720 Speaker 1: there might not be any. Well, and one thing that 164 00:11:21,120 --> 00:11:24,080 Speaker 1: jumps out to me in the cards as well is 165 00:11:24,160 --> 00:11:26,400 Speaker 1: that it allows room for women to not only be 166 00:11:26,720 --> 00:11:29,840 Speaker 1: sad and to grieve, but also to be angry. And 167 00:11:29,880 --> 00:11:34,760 Speaker 1: that was something that you so rarely see in when 168 00:11:34,760 --> 00:11:37,240 Speaker 1: it comes to women in general permissions to be angry, 169 00:11:37,280 --> 00:11:41,440 Speaker 1: but especially in these kinds of situations. It's so true, 170 00:11:41,600 --> 00:11:44,679 Speaker 1: and why can't we have a range of feelings and 171 00:11:44,760 --> 00:11:48,400 Speaker 1: have that be okay? And you know, the truth is, 172 00:11:49,160 --> 00:11:52,480 Speaker 1: feelings aren't facts. So one day we could say, you know, 173 00:11:53,440 --> 00:11:56,959 Speaker 1: loss like the card says, and the next day feel 174 00:11:57,000 --> 00:12:00,160 Speaker 1: it's totally differently about it right or the next or 175 00:12:00,160 --> 00:12:03,400 Speaker 1: a month or year. So feelings change anyway. So again 176 00:12:03,440 --> 00:12:06,360 Speaker 1: it's like, let's we can try a little bit harder, 177 00:12:06,400 --> 00:12:10,240 Speaker 1: I think, to feel comfortable in whatever it is that 178 00:12:10,320 --> 00:12:13,559 Speaker 1: we're feeling, because it will change. Anger, of course, is 179 00:12:13,600 --> 00:12:17,080 Speaker 1: an expected part of of losing something or of being 180 00:12:17,080 --> 00:12:20,360 Speaker 1: afraid to not be able to have what you want, 181 00:12:20,520 --> 00:12:24,760 Speaker 1: and in this case that would be a baby. Well 182 00:12:24,760 --> 00:12:27,640 Speaker 1: do you think that dads could use these cards too? 183 00:12:29,280 --> 00:12:33,319 Speaker 1: I would love them too. I have sent the cards 184 00:12:33,600 --> 00:12:38,720 Speaker 1: to just a few men so far. Um, it's something 185 00:12:38,760 --> 00:12:43,400 Speaker 1: I'm thinking about in terms of the future because I 186 00:12:43,480 --> 00:12:48,280 Speaker 1: realized that, you know, the communication I think in the 187 00:12:48,360 --> 00:12:54,120 Speaker 1: cards it seems a lot more feminine based UM, and 188 00:12:54,200 --> 00:12:57,600 Speaker 1: so yeah, I need to sort of work on that 189 00:12:57,720 --> 00:13:00,280 Speaker 1: a little bit, you know, because it's like, get the 190 00:13:00,320 --> 00:13:02,839 Speaker 1: card that says I'm deeply sorry for your loss, if 191 00:13:02,840 --> 00:13:06,320 Speaker 1: it just stopped there, but because I wrote I'm here always, 192 00:13:06,360 --> 00:13:09,280 Speaker 1: I just felt like a man may not send something 193 00:13:09,320 --> 00:13:13,760 Speaker 1: that says that. So sort of along those same lines, Uh, 194 00:13:13,920 --> 00:13:18,040 Speaker 1: what did you think when Mark Zuckerberg and announcing him 195 00:13:18,080 --> 00:13:23,240 Speaker 1: and his wife's pregnancy also included there's openness about the 196 00:13:23,320 --> 00:13:25,800 Speaker 1: miscarriages that they had experienced along the way too. I 197 00:13:25,800 --> 00:13:29,000 Speaker 1: mean that seemed like a huge milestone, especially for a 198 00:13:29,120 --> 00:13:33,920 Speaker 1: guy to be saying this well, and especially him right, 199 00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:37,400 Speaker 1: so when whenever somebody sort of in the spotlight shares 200 00:13:37,480 --> 00:13:42,440 Speaker 1: their story, it does help to destigmatize UM, an issue 201 00:13:42,480 --> 00:13:44,880 Speaker 1: that many people aren't talking about. So I thought that 202 00:13:44,920 --> 00:13:48,640 Speaker 1: was incredibly powerful, And Good Morning America reached out to 203 00:13:48,679 --> 00:13:51,600 Speaker 1: me a couple of days later and wanted to talk 204 00:13:51,600 --> 00:13:54,520 Speaker 1: to me about the initiation of the hashtag campaign and 205 00:13:55,120 --> 00:13:57,959 Speaker 1: my work around pregnancy loss, because you know, I mean, 206 00:13:58,000 --> 00:14:02,000 Speaker 1: it is interesting, you know, he shared the news once 207 00:14:02,040 --> 00:14:05,520 Speaker 1: they were having a successful pregnancy, and I think that's 208 00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:07,720 Speaker 1: you know, an interesting thing for us to think about 209 00:14:07,720 --> 00:14:11,760 Speaker 1: that oftentimes women who UM aren't sort of in that 210 00:14:11,840 --> 00:14:15,240 Speaker 1: positive place or on the other side, I guess, of 211 00:14:15,240 --> 00:14:18,400 Speaker 1: of their loss, you know, may feel like, well, how 212 00:14:18,440 --> 00:14:21,640 Speaker 1: come we didn't share this sooner? Or um. You know, 213 00:14:21,680 --> 00:14:25,920 Speaker 1: some people are even really advocating for sharing about being 214 00:14:25,960 --> 00:14:30,440 Speaker 1: pregnant a lot sooner because in our culture typically people 215 00:14:30,480 --> 00:14:33,240 Speaker 1: feel a pressure to wait to share their news until 216 00:14:33,280 --> 00:14:37,080 Speaker 1: their twelve weeks along UM because you know, miscarried just 217 00:14:37,680 --> 00:14:41,720 Speaker 1: often happened within the first trimester, and so you know, 218 00:14:41,760 --> 00:14:43,960 Speaker 1: these are just some interesting things to think about. But 219 00:14:44,120 --> 00:14:49,200 Speaker 1: I do think that the more people share their stories, UM, 220 00:14:49,480 --> 00:14:52,520 Speaker 1: the more we melt away this silence that doesn't need 221 00:14:52,560 --> 00:14:56,440 Speaker 1: to exist, and that it actually creates more pain UM 222 00:14:56,800 --> 00:15:00,480 Speaker 1: for the people going through it. Do you think that 223 00:15:00,800 --> 00:15:04,920 Speaker 1: telling people you're pregnant earlier on is part of sort 224 00:15:04,920 --> 00:15:09,280 Speaker 1: of fostering a sense of support and community UM or not. 225 00:15:09,440 --> 00:15:11,880 Speaker 1: What do you advise your patients in terms of sharing 226 00:15:11,880 --> 00:15:18,560 Speaker 1: their pregnancy timeline? Well, I do actually think that UM 227 00:15:19,040 --> 00:15:24,360 Speaker 1: sharing early ken of course bring more support if something 228 00:15:24,400 --> 00:15:28,320 Speaker 1: were to go wrong, because I think this idea that 229 00:15:28,480 --> 00:15:34,200 Speaker 1: not telling doesn't really foster anything except the feeling of 230 00:15:34,280 --> 00:15:36,640 Speaker 1: kind of a loneness, you know. I mean unless somebody 231 00:15:36,800 --> 00:15:40,720 Speaker 1: just personally does want to know, marinate on this exciting 232 00:15:41,360 --> 00:15:44,520 Speaker 1: um experience on their own or just with their partner 233 00:15:44,600 --> 00:15:47,560 Speaker 1: or something, that's one thing. But to not share because 234 00:15:47,720 --> 00:15:51,200 Speaker 1: of a worry that something might go wrong, I don't 235 00:15:51,240 --> 00:15:55,640 Speaker 1: think behooves us as a culture. Um. It doesn't bring 236 00:15:56,320 --> 00:15:59,200 Speaker 1: the support that we do need, whether things go well 237 00:15:59,320 --> 00:16:02,600 Speaker 1: or things don't go well. And in terms of advising 238 00:16:02,600 --> 00:16:06,400 Speaker 1: my patients, I I'm more interested, I think, with with 239 00:16:06,640 --> 00:16:10,160 Speaker 1: the individual in terms of sort of what they're feeling, 240 00:16:10,320 --> 00:16:15,080 Speaker 1: what they're um fears are, what their excitement is all about, 241 00:16:15,120 --> 00:16:19,680 Speaker 1: what their hopes are. UM. So if somebody, for example, 242 00:16:20,320 --> 00:16:24,680 Speaker 1: wants to share early, then I'm you know, supportive of that. 243 00:16:24,840 --> 00:16:28,280 Speaker 1: But if somebody has had let's say, you know, three 244 00:16:28,320 --> 00:16:32,160 Speaker 1: losses or late term terminations because something was wrong with 245 00:16:32,200 --> 00:16:36,960 Speaker 1: the baby or something, and they don't feel um comfortable 246 00:16:37,200 --> 00:16:41,280 Speaker 1: you know sharing with anybody, I understand that too, you know. 247 00:16:41,360 --> 00:16:43,440 Speaker 1: So it really just depends, I think on the individual. 248 00:16:43,480 --> 00:16:47,280 Speaker 1: I mean, we we grieve so differently, and you know, 249 00:16:47,840 --> 00:16:51,000 Speaker 1: some like I said earlier, some people have an early 250 00:16:51,080 --> 00:16:53,960 Speaker 1: loss and grief. Some people have an early loss and 251 00:16:54,120 --> 00:16:56,680 Speaker 1: don't some people have a late loss and see it, 252 00:16:57,600 --> 00:17:00,800 Speaker 1: you know, want to sort of see it is like, oh, 253 00:17:00,840 --> 00:17:04,360 Speaker 1: this is a sign or you know something. And so 254 00:17:04,440 --> 00:17:08,119 Speaker 1: we we just kind of deal with our um grief 255 00:17:08,280 --> 00:17:12,760 Speaker 1: and our losses in such different and individual ways, and 256 00:17:12,800 --> 00:17:16,439 Speaker 1: so I think it just helps us to have a 257 00:17:16,520 --> 00:17:21,240 Speaker 1: broader sense of normalizing all of that. Well, and I 258 00:17:21,280 --> 00:17:25,040 Speaker 1: have to wonder as well, how much of the sort 259 00:17:25,040 --> 00:17:30,159 Speaker 1: of recommendation to wait to tell um later in a 260 00:17:30,200 --> 00:17:34,879 Speaker 1: pregnancy is more to protect the person who's pregnant from 261 00:17:35,080 --> 00:17:37,800 Speaker 1: more disappointment and sense of loss, or more to protect 262 00:17:38,000 --> 00:17:41,600 Speaker 1: us so that we, you know, have less of this 263 00:17:41,800 --> 00:17:44,720 Speaker 1: kind of awkward grief that we're obviously not so great 264 00:17:44,840 --> 00:17:49,320 Speaker 1: dealing with. That's exactly what I think. Yeah, yeah, And 265 00:17:49,320 --> 00:17:52,639 Speaker 1: why is it so awkward? See? I think it's so fascinating, 266 00:17:52,680 --> 00:17:56,560 Speaker 1: Like why is it hard for us to simply say 267 00:17:56,880 --> 00:18:00,240 Speaker 1: I'm so sorry for your loss and I'm here. Because 268 00:18:00,560 --> 00:18:02,360 Speaker 1: some of my patients say, you know, they don't love 269 00:18:02,400 --> 00:18:04,399 Speaker 1: when people say to them, tell me what I can 270 00:18:04,480 --> 00:18:06,600 Speaker 1: do for you. It's like, we'll just do something for me. 271 00:18:06,880 --> 00:18:08,280 Speaker 1: I don't need to have to tell you what to 272 00:18:08,320 --> 00:18:11,280 Speaker 1: do for me or whatever. So it's it's so simple, 273 00:18:11,840 --> 00:18:16,959 Speaker 1: so we can simply say, you know, I'm here and 274 00:18:17,040 --> 00:18:19,040 Speaker 1: we are going to hear more from our chat with 275 00:18:19,160 --> 00:18:33,880 Speaker 1: Dr Zucker and we come right back from a quick break. Well, 276 00:18:33,880 --> 00:18:36,080 Speaker 1: I was reading through a lot of the comments on 277 00:18:36,359 --> 00:18:39,760 Speaker 1: your New York Times column, which was fantastic and just 278 00:18:40,240 --> 00:18:43,879 Speaker 1: incredible to see all of the stories that we're coming 279 00:18:43,880 --> 00:18:46,680 Speaker 1: out of that, and just the relief that so many 280 00:18:46,840 --> 00:18:50,240 Speaker 1: women felt having an opportunity to share. And going back 281 00:18:50,280 --> 00:18:52,080 Speaker 1: to what you said a few minutes ago about how 282 00:18:52,359 --> 00:18:56,080 Speaker 1: we don't infect each other by sharing our stories. Um, 283 00:18:56,119 --> 00:18:58,879 Speaker 1: there was one comment or who noted that she was 284 00:18:59,119 --> 00:19:02,919 Speaker 1: afraid to talk about her miscarriage for fear that it 285 00:19:03,000 --> 00:19:09,520 Speaker 1: might jinks future pregnancies. So how might someone you know, 286 00:19:09,560 --> 00:19:12,560 Speaker 1: how how would you work through that kind of worry? 287 00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:14,439 Speaker 1: And I mean was that a worry that you had 288 00:19:14,480 --> 00:19:18,679 Speaker 1: to kind of work through with your own pregnancies as well? Well, 289 00:19:18,760 --> 00:19:21,200 Speaker 1: that's a good question. You mean my subsequent pregnancy after 290 00:19:21,280 --> 00:19:30,160 Speaker 1: my loss. Yeah, I was terrified for the entire pregnancy, 291 00:19:30,359 --> 00:19:36,080 Speaker 1: and I you know, had the testing done, the chromosomal 292 00:19:36,080 --> 00:19:39,679 Speaker 1: testing done, um as early as possible, and got you 293 00:19:39,720 --> 00:19:43,520 Speaker 1: know the news that things were healthy. But I nevertheless 294 00:19:43,760 --> 00:19:48,639 Speaker 1: I had a really hard time believing it. And um 295 00:19:48,680 --> 00:19:52,200 Speaker 1: that's in part you know why I created that hard 296 00:19:52,280 --> 00:19:56,760 Speaker 1: that is about being pregnant after pregnancy loss, because if 297 00:19:57,320 --> 00:20:02,360 Speaker 1: one in four pregnancies result in loss, that means there's 298 00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:05,600 Speaker 1: so many women walking around in bodies that have lost 299 00:20:05,600 --> 00:20:09,560 Speaker 1: something that they wanted um and especially if they go 300 00:20:09,680 --> 00:20:13,239 Speaker 1: on to get pregnant again. It's sort of like that 301 00:20:13,280 --> 00:20:17,520 Speaker 1: means there's so many people experiencing fear um at least 302 00:20:17,520 --> 00:20:20,960 Speaker 1: for for some period of time. And so in terms 303 00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:24,840 Speaker 1: of you know, this idea of jinxing, the way I 304 00:20:24,840 --> 00:20:27,199 Speaker 1: would work through that with a patient is really talking 305 00:20:27,240 --> 00:20:31,239 Speaker 1: about like, you know, it makes sense. You're anxious, you know, 306 00:20:31,920 --> 00:20:36,160 Speaker 1: you're worried that by talking about bad things or things 307 00:20:36,200 --> 00:20:40,000 Speaker 1: that could go wrong, that somehow just even putting that 308 00:20:40,119 --> 00:20:42,760 Speaker 1: energy out there are those words you know out there 309 00:20:42,800 --> 00:20:45,639 Speaker 1: that somehow that's going to make it happen. And and 310 00:20:45,680 --> 00:20:48,440 Speaker 1: that's sort of magical thinking, right. It's just like that's 311 00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:51,520 Speaker 1: what our kids say, like, oh, the moon is following me, 312 00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:57,159 Speaker 1: you know, um so, and that it tends to happen 313 00:20:57,200 --> 00:21:01,560 Speaker 1: more after trauma or after loss or with increased anxiety, 314 00:21:01,680 --> 00:21:04,679 Speaker 1: that we think that somehow we can impact things that 315 00:21:04,720 --> 00:21:09,480 Speaker 1: we really can't. So by talking about you know, disease 316 00:21:09,880 --> 00:21:14,399 Speaker 1: or terror, or or or pregnancy loss or any of 317 00:21:14,400 --> 00:21:18,720 Speaker 1: these you know, difficult and awful things, it doesn't increase 318 00:21:18,760 --> 00:21:22,800 Speaker 1: the likelihood of them happening. Well, what would you say 319 00:21:22,880 --> 00:21:26,040 Speaker 1: helped you the most in processing your own loss and 320 00:21:26,080 --> 00:21:30,000 Speaker 1: then going on to try again? M hmm. I think 321 00:21:30,119 --> 00:21:34,120 Speaker 1: that the way that I've made piece, I guess with 322 00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:38,360 Speaker 1: my experience is really through my writing. Of course, I'm 323 00:21:38,640 --> 00:21:42,240 Speaker 1: a big advocate of being in therapy, so that kind 324 00:21:42,240 --> 00:21:46,000 Speaker 1: of goes about sayings since I'm a psychologist. But uh, 325 00:21:46,040 --> 00:21:50,280 Speaker 1: in addition to that, writing about my experience really helped me, 326 00:21:51,560 --> 00:21:57,159 Speaker 1: you know, sort of investigate various crevices of my pain, 327 00:21:57,480 --> 00:22:03,040 Speaker 1: of my of the complexity of loss. I have connected 328 00:22:03,080 --> 00:22:07,320 Speaker 1: with so many wonderful women in organizations worldwide at this point. 329 00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:10,280 Speaker 1: That also helped me get through my loss because I 330 00:22:10,359 --> 00:22:14,000 Speaker 1: felt such a sense of community and connectedness that I 331 00:22:14,040 --> 00:22:18,800 Speaker 1: wouldn't have felt otherwise. Um. So yeah, I mean, I 332 00:22:20,359 --> 00:22:22,359 Speaker 1: I went on to get pregnant, I think about four 333 00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:26,280 Speaker 1: months after my loss, and each day you know, had 334 00:22:26,320 --> 00:22:31,719 Speaker 1: its struggles, and so I think though the more that 335 00:22:31,840 --> 00:22:35,439 Speaker 1: I sort of again looked at each element. Why do 336 00:22:35,520 --> 00:22:39,520 Speaker 1: women feel ashamed? Why are we blaming ourselves? Why? You know, 337 00:22:39,680 --> 00:22:42,080 Speaker 1: how can it be that the statistics are this high 338 00:22:42,160 --> 00:22:45,520 Speaker 1: and we're living though, in a culture that's basically silent 339 00:22:45,600 --> 00:22:51,520 Speaker 1: about something so normative and and typical. Um. And so, 340 00:22:52,160 --> 00:22:56,000 Speaker 1: you know, getting deep into all of that from I 341 00:22:56,040 --> 00:22:59,159 Speaker 1: guess the political perspective and then also the personal really 342 00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:04,320 Speaker 1: helped me feel I guess capable of walking through this again. 343 00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:09,160 Speaker 1: But until my daughter was born, UM, I was worried. 344 00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:12,720 Speaker 1: So you mentioned writing, and it reminds me of how 345 00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:16,600 Speaker 1: I've heard a lot of therapists recommend women who have 346 00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:20,880 Speaker 1: had traumatic birth experiences right their birth story as part 347 00:23:20,880 --> 00:23:23,160 Speaker 1: of the healing process and write it over and over again, 348 00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:27,440 Speaker 1: however many times they need to. Would you also recommend, 349 00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:31,320 Speaker 1: you know, maybe women should be writing their miscarriage stories 350 00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:33,680 Speaker 1: as well, or there's still birth stories. I mean, what 351 00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:39,000 Speaker 1: it sounds like that was such a therapeutic process for you. Yeah, 352 00:23:39,280 --> 00:23:44,080 Speaker 1: I think that's an important question, you know, because, um, 353 00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:47,800 Speaker 1: you would think because I initiated this hashtag, which is 354 00:23:47,960 --> 00:23:50,480 Speaker 1: so public and sort of like you know, puts it 355 00:23:50,560 --> 00:23:53,440 Speaker 1: out here in such a major way, that I might 356 00:23:53,520 --> 00:23:57,520 Speaker 1: feel like, oh, everyone should probably do this. I I 357 00:23:57,640 --> 00:24:03,800 Speaker 1: think writing is inevitably helpful for a lot of people. Um, 358 00:24:03,840 --> 00:24:06,480 Speaker 1: But whether or not they kind of share that privately, 359 00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:09,479 Speaker 1: you know, publicly or keep it private, I think is 360 00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:14,000 Speaker 1: totally up to them. So um, you know, because some 361 00:24:14,119 --> 00:24:16,880 Speaker 1: people have had reactions to some of my writing like, well, 362 00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:19,520 Speaker 1: not everybody feels this way or not everybody has to 363 00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:22,800 Speaker 1: talk about it or not everybody has to, you know, 364 00:24:23,359 --> 00:24:27,359 Speaker 1: um start a campaign related to it. And I I 365 00:24:27,359 --> 00:24:31,680 Speaker 1: couldn't agree more. I just feel like this is something 366 00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:34,800 Speaker 1: that I need to do, and it's so connected to 367 00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:37,520 Speaker 1: my work and it's so now connected to my heart 368 00:24:37,560 --> 00:24:41,560 Speaker 1: that I can't not do it. But I think, yes, 369 00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:44,840 Speaker 1: writing about a traumatic birth experience sounds like a very 370 00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:49,640 Speaker 1: important way to process the pain. And you know, therapy, 371 00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:52,800 Speaker 1: of course can be helpful because therapy is typically you know, 372 00:24:52,840 --> 00:24:54,960 Speaker 1: maybe once a week for fifty minutes or twice a 373 00:24:55,000 --> 00:25:00,280 Speaker 1: week whatever. Um. Writing is just can be continuous and 374 00:25:00,359 --> 00:25:04,600 Speaker 1: it's right there, um dependent paper. So I think, yeah, 375 00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:10,480 Speaker 1: I think that's a really important, uh healing possibility. Well, 376 00:25:10,520 --> 00:25:13,560 Speaker 1: along those lines, I'm interested in hearing in the wake 377 00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:16,480 Speaker 1: of both the hashtag and the cards and all of 378 00:25:16,520 --> 00:25:21,320 Speaker 1: the attention that they've gotten. Have you learned anything from 379 00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:24,359 Speaker 1: the people who are participating in the hashtag or anything 380 00:25:24,359 --> 00:25:27,560 Speaker 1: that's surprised you were you surprised by any of the 381 00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:30,000 Speaker 1: things that you heard from people who had gone through 382 00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:36,600 Speaker 1: this as well. I think I'm surprised by, you know, 383 00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:41,679 Speaker 1: the fact that so many people feel ashamed, and you know, 384 00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:44,320 Speaker 1: now it's I've read so much of the research now, 385 00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:46,720 Speaker 1: and so I guess I shouldn't be surprised that I'm 386 00:25:46,760 --> 00:25:53,800 Speaker 1: still I'm concerned riot that this many women are feeling 387 00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:59,399 Speaker 1: a sense of alienation from their bodies or in their bodies, 388 00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:04,680 Speaker 1: and feeling less at home in their skin and thinking 389 00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:08,479 Speaker 1: that somehow, you know, maybe by exercising or having sex 390 00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:11,400 Speaker 1: or having a sip of wine, you know that somehow 391 00:26:11,520 --> 00:26:16,520 Speaker 1: they created this loss. And uh so I've heard just 392 00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:19,160 Speaker 1: so much of that, you know, over the years now 393 00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:23,439 Speaker 1: since I came out with my story, you know, women 394 00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:27,320 Speaker 1: sharing that somehow, you know, did they do that? Did 395 00:26:27,320 --> 00:26:29,960 Speaker 1: they do something to deserve this, which is again, you know, 396 00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:34,000 Speaker 1: an example of magical thinking, where it's like people actually 397 00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:37,200 Speaker 1: think that maybe oh if I maybe I didn't want 398 00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:40,040 Speaker 1: to babe badly enough, and that's why this happened, or 399 00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:44,160 Speaker 1: you know, maybe it's because I wasn't nice to someone 400 00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:47,040 Speaker 1: in junior high and so this is the harma or 401 00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:51,200 Speaker 1: you know, some sort of boomerang effect, you know, and 402 00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:55,960 Speaker 1: again that's just not possible. And so it's that that 403 00:26:57,040 --> 00:27:01,200 Speaker 1: is disheartening to know that this people are feeling this way. 404 00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:03,679 Speaker 1: And again this is part of my sort of inspiration 405 00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:07,520 Speaker 1: for talking so much about it and trying to be 406 00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:12,119 Speaker 1: part of culture that's normalizing grief rather than keeping it 407 00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:17,440 Speaker 1: quiet or or you know, lathering on more shame. Well, 408 00:27:17,480 --> 00:27:21,040 Speaker 1: we're really curious, especially since the podcast is stuff mom 409 00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:24,200 Speaker 1: never told you. You were always curious about advice from 410 00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:28,320 Speaker 1: moms to daughters. And if your daughter ever gets pregnant, 411 00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:30,639 Speaker 1: what what do you think your advice will be just 412 00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:37,359 Speaker 1: for the whole experience. Mm hmm. That's such an important question. 413 00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:39,920 Speaker 1: You know. It's interesting that you say that, because this 414 00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:45,480 Speaker 1: morning I was changing her out of her pajamas into 415 00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:48,800 Speaker 1: her pose and changing her diaper and just kind of 416 00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:52,360 Speaker 1: gazing into her eyes and thinking about all that I've 417 00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:56,400 Speaker 1: been through and what kind of took to to get 418 00:27:56,400 --> 00:27:59,800 Speaker 1: her I guess um, and how different I feel about 419 00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:02,639 Speaker 1: her in a way. Then then I felt after having 420 00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:05,119 Speaker 1: my son, you know, when when pregnancy had been so 421 00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:09,359 Speaker 1: easy and um, and I hadn't known sort of heartbreak 422 00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:14,520 Speaker 1: at that point. And UM, so I well, I hope 423 00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:20,119 Speaker 1: that I make her proud, um so, you know, meaning 424 00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:24,679 Speaker 1: like when she's older or old enough to know that 425 00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:27,080 Speaker 1: this is something that I've done with my life, you 426 00:28:27,119 --> 00:28:30,720 Speaker 1: know that I created these cards and that I'm hoping 427 00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:34,639 Speaker 1: to help you know, impact or society in terms of 428 00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:37,840 Speaker 1: the discussion around all this. I hope that she even 429 00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:42,560 Speaker 1: would feel comfortable with whatever feelings arise for her in 430 00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:48,160 Speaker 1: terms of getting pregnant, um, you know, or choosing not 431 00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:51,760 Speaker 1: to get pregnant, or if she were to have a loss, 432 00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:55,600 Speaker 1: you know, to be able to kind of express herself 433 00:28:55,720 --> 00:29:00,280 Speaker 1: whatever the feelings might be. I actually have one, um 434 00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:05,000 Speaker 1: final question that maybe could help give some perspective to 435 00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:09,640 Speaker 1: our listeners. Um. You know, there there is such a struggle, 436 00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:11,880 Speaker 1: it seems like, to figure out the right thing to 437 00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:17,160 Speaker 1: say to someone who's experienced such a loss. And I'm wondering, 438 00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:22,440 Speaker 1: from your perspective, what happens both emotionally and sort of 439 00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:26,000 Speaker 1: in your social and family circle. What what happens once 440 00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:30,560 Speaker 1: all of those condolences and cards and hugs have stopped 441 00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:33,120 Speaker 1: because it seems like, you know, with the awkwardness in 442 00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:37,240 Speaker 1: our culture that we feel around loss, everyone else is 443 00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:43,000 Speaker 1: so ready to move on. But where does that leave you? Yes, 444 00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:47,640 Speaker 1: and thank you for bringing this up. I really try 445 00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:51,920 Speaker 1: to drive home a sense of consistency in a majority 446 00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:56,000 Speaker 1: of the cards that I created, so that people would understand, like, 447 00:29:56,360 --> 00:29:58,960 Speaker 1: you know, I'm here for you right now and I'm 448 00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:01,720 Speaker 1: here for you always or if you want to call 449 00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:04,120 Speaker 1: me morning, noon and night. Do you know it's like, 450 00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:12,880 Speaker 1: because I felt very alone at some point, um, soon 451 00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:16,200 Speaker 1: after my loss, and all the love was there, all 452 00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:20,160 Speaker 1: the support was available, but I still I felt pretty isolated. 453 00:30:20,440 --> 00:30:24,040 Speaker 1: Um because typically what a month later people aren't gonna, 454 00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:28,160 Speaker 1: you know, call you up and ask about how you're 455 00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:31,920 Speaker 1: feeling about your loss. Why not? I'm not quite sure, 456 00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:38,560 Speaker 1: but I needed that, And um that's why I think 457 00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:41,040 Speaker 1: these cards can be sent sort of at any time, 458 00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:45,880 Speaker 1: you know, And I think that we need to kind 459 00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:52,880 Speaker 1: of be more comfortable in the uncomfortablelity that law springs. 460 00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:56,160 Speaker 1: So again, you know, if it's a grandparent, it feels 461 00:30:56,240 --> 00:31:00,280 Speaker 1: very different. I think people you know might ask about 462 00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:03,960 Speaker 1: it if you were particularly close to that person, or 463 00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:05,800 Speaker 1: they may not because it was a kind of a 464 00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:08,680 Speaker 1: normative loss. You know, hopefully they lived along and meaningful 465 00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:13,040 Speaker 1: life and so uh that's that. But I think with 466 00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:15,880 Speaker 1: something like this again, it's people are hoping that you 467 00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:19,480 Speaker 1: forget about it, or that you move into getting pregnant 468 00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:21,880 Speaker 1: again and you focus on the good news, or you 469 00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:28,880 Speaker 1: focus on something you know, quote unquote positive, and then 470 00:31:28,920 --> 00:31:32,520 Speaker 1: you're kind of stuck though with these feelings on your own. 471 00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:37,080 Speaker 1: So I would urge people to try to show up 472 00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:41,520 Speaker 1: her people later. So even you know, six months after 473 00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:45,080 Speaker 1: a loss. And now I'm of course biased in terms 474 00:31:45,120 --> 00:31:47,800 Speaker 1: of my loss was, you know, so much later than 475 00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:52,000 Speaker 1: the typical loss. So someone with a way earlier laws 476 00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:55,000 Speaker 1: may not be resonating with what I'm saying. They may 477 00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:56,960 Speaker 1: not want someone to bring it up six months later. 478 00:31:57,400 --> 00:31:58,880 Speaker 1: But I know for me, it would have been so 479 00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:01,760 Speaker 1: helpful if if and just kind of texted me saying, 480 00:32:01,800 --> 00:32:03,720 Speaker 1: you know, just thinking of you, if you ever want 481 00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:05,280 Speaker 1: to talk, or you ever want to scream, or you 482 00:32:05,320 --> 00:32:07,840 Speaker 1: ever want to then, or you ever want to just 483 00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:13,960 Speaker 1: you know, tell me the whole story or not at all, whatever. Anything. 484 00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:17,960 Speaker 1: I just felt there was kind of this closed door 485 00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:22,800 Speaker 1: after a certain period of time. Now, I'm just curious 486 00:32:23,360 --> 00:32:28,080 Speaker 1: as someone so busy. You have two kids, you're practicing therapists, 487 00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:31,120 Speaker 1: you have the cards, you have hashtag that went viral, 488 00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:35,920 Speaker 1: So what possibly could be the next Oh, that is 489 00:32:35,920 --> 00:32:39,959 Speaker 1: a very good question. I I would like to know 490 00:32:40,040 --> 00:32:46,520 Speaker 1: that too. Um, raising these little people and continuing on 491 00:32:46,600 --> 00:32:49,239 Speaker 1: in in this work, you know. So I don't know. 492 00:32:49,480 --> 00:32:52,520 Speaker 1: I mean, there's a part of me that wants to 493 00:32:52,560 --> 00:32:56,480 Speaker 1: commit to a book. There's a part of me that doesn't. Um. 494 00:32:56,520 --> 00:33:00,080 Speaker 1: I just I don't know yet. I'm not sure that 495 00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:03,800 Speaker 1: I know that this is definitely something I will keep 496 00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:07,000 Speaker 1: that for quite some time. Well, we're very glad to 497 00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:10,360 Speaker 1: hear that, because we're we're so excited to share this 498 00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:14,680 Speaker 1: interview with our listeners because anytime we have talked about 499 00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:18,280 Speaker 1: miscarriage on the podcast, which is when we shared the 500 00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:23,600 Speaker 1: link about your cards, just an outpouring of um of 501 00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:28,320 Speaker 1: responses from people. They're so so eager and just longing 502 00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:30,000 Speaker 1: to talk about it and to hear about it and 503 00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:33,000 Speaker 1: to feel comforted from it. So we really really do 504 00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:35,480 Speaker 1: appreciate you taking the time. Glad. Yeah, I really just 505 00:33:35,560 --> 00:33:39,240 Speaker 1: hope that it creates a sense of connectedness and community. 506 00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:43,560 Speaker 1: And again because the statistics are so high, I just 507 00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:49,000 Speaker 1: I want people to feel less alone, less ashamed, um, 508 00:33:49,120 --> 00:34:00,440 Speaker 1: and less self conscious about it. So thank you again 509 00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:03,800 Speaker 1: so much to Dr Jessica Zucker for talking to us 510 00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:08,480 Speaker 1: about her work and about miscarriage and still birth. And 511 00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:11,160 Speaker 1: if you'd like to learn more about her, you can 512 00:34:11,160 --> 00:34:14,280 Speaker 1: go to her website at Dr Jessica Zucker dot com, 513 00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:17,760 Speaker 1: which is also where you can buy the Pregnancy Loss 514 00:34:18,160 --> 00:34:21,200 Speaker 1: greeting cards and sympathy cards UM. And if you also 515 00:34:21,239 --> 00:34:25,600 Speaker 1: want to learn more about just the basic facts surrounding miscarriage, 516 00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:27,880 Speaker 1: you should head over to stuff Mo'm Never told you 517 00:34:28,160 --> 00:34:31,000 Speaker 1: dot com and listen to the podcast that we did 518 00:34:31,200 --> 00:34:34,640 Speaker 1: about that and listeners. I'm I'm really curious to hear 519 00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:40,000 Speaker 1: how this conversation has resonated with you and your experience. 520 00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:42,120 Speaker 1: Mom Stuff at how stuff works dot com is where 521 00:34:42,160 --> 00:34:44,879 Speaker 1: you can email us. You can also tweet us at 522 00:34:44,920 --> 00:34:48,279 Speaker 1: mom Stuff podcast or messages on Facebook, and we've got 523 00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:56,600 Speaker 1: a couple of messages to share with you right now. Well, 524 00:34:56,640 --> 00:34:59,960 Speaker 1: I have a letter here UM from Jeffrey in response 525 00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:03,160 Speaker 1: to our knitting episode. I just finished listening to the 526 00:35:03,239 --> 00:35:05,480 Speaker 1: knitting episode and wanted to write in about one of 527 00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:09,520 Speaker 1: my New Year's resolutions, learning to crochet. Owing to the 528 00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:11,600 Speaker 1: fact that I, like you too, have tried to learn 529 00:35:11,600 --> 00:35:14,400 Speaker 1: to knit in the past. To my ultimate despair, I 530 00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:16,680 Speaker 1: decided to see if my hands took any more easily 531 00:35:16,680 --> 00:35:19,160 Speaker 1: to the crochet hook. As it turns out, my brain 532 00:35:19,239 --> 00:35:21,840 Speaker 1: totally wraps around it's so much more easily than it 533 00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:25,000 Speaker 1: did knitting. I definitely recommend trying it as a triumphant 534 00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:28,200 Speaker 1: trade for knitting, if that particular failure haunts you as 535 00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:30,920 Speaker 1: it haunted me. I'm only a few weeks in, but 536 00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:33,319 Speaker 1: already making great headway and getting used to how it 537 00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:36,720 Speaker 1: feels in my hands. But the real reason I'm writing 538 00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:39,279 Speaker 1: is more to the gendered subject matter you brought up 539 00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:42,360 Speaker 1: in the episode. Being a gay male in New York City, 540 00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:45,359 Speaker 1: I don't much get askance looks if I pull out 541 00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:48,440 Speaker 1: my work in public. It's New York and no one cares. 542 00:35:48,680 --> 00:35:50,960 Speaker 1: I'm crocheting on the subway. The guy next to me 543 00:35:51,040 --> 00:35:54,440 Speaker 1: might be conducting an imaginary orchestra. However, my husband and 544 00:35:54,480 --> 00:35:56,600 Speaker 1: I are planning a move to a more rural area 545 00:35:56,680 --> 00:35:59,759 Speaker 1: this summer, where I imagine the level of at least 546 00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:02,600 Speaker 1: in initial surprise might be a good bit higher. I 547 00:36:02,640 --> 00:36:05,160 Speaker 1: don't expect a lot of judgment attached, but the occurrence 548 00:36:05,160 --> 00:36:08,720 Speaker 1: of a man crocheting is probably less common and outside 549 00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:11,440 Speaker 1: of major city environments. I think people tend to notice 550 00:36:11,480 --> 00:36:15,960 Speaker 1: more and ask more questions, inadvertently revealing their assumptions or biases. 551 00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:18,879 Speaker 1: I think it's an interesting phenomenon and wonder if there's 552 00:36:18,920 --> 00:36:22,040 Speaker 1: anything else you two might know about the connections between 553 00:36:22,080 --> 00:36:26,120 Speaker 1: gender and sexuality stigmas, and metropolitan living versus rural living. 554 00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:28,840 Speaker 1: I think some things they are easily assumed or just 555 00:36:28,920 --> 00:36:31,800 Speaker 1: taking as common sense, but I don't know much about 556 00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:35,000 Speaker 1: research to support what we all infer i e. City 557 00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:37,160 Speaker 1: folk are more high minded and our tolerant, while the 558 00:36:37,200 --> 00:36:40,279 Speaker 1: country folk are quicker to scrutinize your question validity. It 559 00:36:40,360 --> 00:36:42,719 Speaker 1: might make an interesting episode, unless I've missed one in 560 00:36:42,719 --> 00:36:45,359 Speaker 1: the past, and all of that from a brief history 561 00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:48,120 Speaker 1: of knitting. Thank you for a super fun show. I'm 562 00:36:48,120 --> 00:36:50,920 Speaker 1: a dedicated listener to several House to Folks podcasts and 563 00:36:50,920 --> 00:36:53,440 Speaker 1: appreciate all the work you guys do to educate us 564 00:36:53,480 --> 00:36:56,800 Speaker 1: in an entertaining way. Well, thank you, Jeffrey. We appreciate 565 00:36:56,800 --> 00:36:59,320 Speaker 1: you listening, and no we haven't done an episode looking 566 00:36:59,400 --> 00:37:03,879 Speaker 1: at stigmas and gender in city versus rural living, but 567 00:37:04,360 --> 00:37:07,279 Speaker 1: I guess that's something tangentially. It's kind of a thing 568 00:37:07,320 --> 00:37:09,600 Speaker 1: we touch on in a lot of our episodes. Yeah, 569 00:37:09,760 --> 00:37:12,319 Speaker 1: it reminded me of our Farmer James episode where we 570 00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:18,040 Speaker 1: talk about the queer farming movement. So they're definitely rural 571 00:37:18,080 --> 00:37:21,360 Speaker 1: areas out there that are super progressive and very organic 572 00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:24,880 Speaker 1: as well. Delicious radishes. Thanks Jeffrey. Well, I've got a 573 00:37:24,920 --> 00:37:27,880 Speaker 1: let her here from Heather about our feminist marriage episode, 574 00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:30,799 Speaker 1: and she writes, I started listening to your podcast when 575 00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:33,560 Speaker 1: I had an awful commute two hours each way. Oh 576 00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:36,399 Speaker 1: my goodness, Heather, and I enjoyed it so much I've 577 00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:39,000 Speaker 1: continued even though I no longer have the commute. In fact, 578 00:37:39,000 --> 00:37:41,520 Speaker 1: I often listen while I'm cooking and have a bit 579 00:37:41,520 --> 00:37:43,799 Speaker 1: of a chuckle about listening to a feminist podcast while 580 00:37:43,840 --> 00:37:47,960 Speaker 1: engaging in such a stereotypically gendered activity. Not only have 581 00:37:48,040 --> 00:37:50,360 Speaker 1: your podcast helped me to embrace my feminism, but it 582 00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:52,799 Speaker 1: also feels like a great way to engage in intellectual 583 00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:57,080 Speaker 1: discourse post grad school. What wonderful compliments. Thank you, Heather. 584 00:37:57,800 --> 00:37:59,680 Speaker 1: She goes on to say. I want to especially thank 585 00:37:59,680 --> 00:38:02,000 Speaker 1: you for your episode on the feminist marriage, which struck 586 00:38:02,040 --> 00:38:04,800 Speaker 1: a very personal chord for me. Specifically, it helped me 587 00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:07,080 Speaker 1: to articulate some of the things I've been dealing with 588 00:38:07,360 --> 00:38:10,440 Speaker 1: and also to feel less alone in the process. My 589 00:38:10,560 --> 00:38:13,440 Speaker 1: husband and I got married in December fourteen after a 590 00:38:13,440 --> 00:38:16,799 Speaker 1: whirl win romance. We met online, and he proposed after 591 00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:19,680 Speaker 1: only three months on the lot where we built our house. 592 00:38:20,080 --> 00:38:22,399 Speaker 1: I know I would want to roll my eyes if 593 00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:25,040 Speaker 1: this had not actually happened to me. I feel grateful 594 00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:27,320 Speaker 1: to have found someone so wonderful to share my life 595 00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:29,000 Speaker 1: with and to have a great story about it. But 596 00:38:29,120 --> 00:38:32,440 Speaker 1: still there's something almost sad about going from an independent 597 00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:35,640 Speaker 1: woman to being described as someone's wife. Don't get me 598 00:38:35,680 --> 00:38:37,920 Speaker 1: wrong in a day to day since I'm very happy. 599 00:38:38,280 --> 00:38:40,640 Speaker 1: It's more on a philosophical level that I struggle with 600 00:38:40,640 --> 00:38:43,719 Speaker 1: the labels and expectations. On top of that, we live 601 00:38:43,760 --> 00:38:46,800 Speaker 1: in Texas, so there is a very real societal pressure 602 00:38:46,840 --> 00:38:50,160 Speaker 1: to conform to certain relationship norms. My husband is very 603 00:38:50,160 --> 00:38:53,279 Speaker 1: supportive and understanding, and we have the occasional discussion rather 604 00:38:53,320 --> 00:38:56,240 Speaker 1: than the blowouts described by Meg Keane. I do agree 605 00:38:56,239 --> 00:39:00,160 Speaker 1: that it's an ongoing process though, and I also leave 606 00:39:00,200 --> 00:39:02,680 Speaker 1: it is important to recognize and be able to articulate 607 00:39:02,719 --> 00:39:06,120 Speaker 1: how you're feeling. Thanks for your hard work. I'm finding 608 00:39:06,280 --> 00:39:10,600 Speaker 1: the latter much easier and I feel more normal for it. Well, 609 00:39:10,640 --> 00:39:13,879 Speaker 1: thank you so much Heather for writing and I'm so 610 00:39:13,960 --> 00:39:16,960 Speaker 1: happy to hear that the podcast has been a source 611 00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:20,560 Speaker 1: of comfort for you and listeners. Again, we want to 612 00:39:20,560 --> 00:39:23,000 Speaker 1: hear from you as well. Mom Stuff at how stuff 613 00:39:23,000 --> 00:39:25,399 Speaker 1: works dot com is our email address and for links 614 00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:27,200 Speaker 1: to all of our social media as well as all 615 00:39:27,200 --> 00:39:31,880 Speaker 1: of our blogs, videos, and podcasts, with links to Dr 616 00:39:32,120 --> 00:39:35,719 Speaker 1: Jessica Zucker's work so you can learn more about her. 617 00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:39,080 Speaker 1: Head on over to stuff Mom Never Told You dot 618 00:39:39,120 --> 00:39:46,239 Speaker 1: com for moralness and thousands of other topics. Does it 619 00:39:46,320 --> 00:39:55,280 Speaker 1: how stuff works dot com