Speaker 1: When we're newer to something, we need to make it
Speaker 1: happen more. And as we're discovering what the territory is,
Speaker 1: then we can relax that effort and invite it more
Speaker 1: and let it happen.
Speaker 2: Welcome to the one you feed. Throughout time, great thinkers
Speaker 2: have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have, quotes
Speaker 2: like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you
Speaker 2: think ring true. And yet for many of us, our
Speaker 2: thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity,
Speaker 2: self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't
Speaker 2: have instead of what we do. We think things that
Speaker 2: hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not
Speaker 2: just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent,
Speaker 2: and creative effort to make a life worth living. This
Speaker 2: podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in
Speaker 2: the right direction. Feed their good wolf. Thanks for joining us.
Speaker 2: Our guest on this episode is Christian Dillo. He spent
Speaker 2: over twenty years as a residential monastic at the Crestone
Speaker 2: Mountains Zen Center in Colorado. In twenty fifteen, he began
Speaker 2: serving as a guiding teacher at the Boulder Zen Center. Today,
Speaker 2: Christian and Eric discuss his book The Path of Aliveness,
Speaker 2: a contemporary Zen approach to awakening body and mind.
Speaker 3: Hi Christian, welcome to the show.
Speaker 1: Hello, thanks for having me.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm really excited to have you on. We're going
Speaker 3: to be discussing your book, The Path of a Liveness,
Speaker 3: a contemporary Zen approach to awakening body and mind. But
Speaker 3: before we do that, we will start like we always do,
Speaker 3: with the parable. In the parable, there's a grandparent who's
Speaker 3: talking with their grandchild say, in life, there are two
Speaker 3: wolves inside of us that are always at battle. One
Speaker 3: is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and
Speaker 3: bravery and love, and the other's a bad wolf, which
Speaker 3: represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the
Speaker 3: grandchild stops. They think about it for a second, and
Speaker 3: they look up at their grandparent and they say, well,
Speaker 3: which one wins? And the grandparent says, the one you feed.
Speaker 3: So I'd like to start off by asking you what
Speaker 3: that parable means to you in your life and in
Speaker 3: the work that you do.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, obviously there's a lot of wisdom in this parable.
Speaker 1: Anyone who works with their habits knows that you know
Speaker 1: their attention and energy. You give to a particular kind
Speaker 1: of habit will make it strong burn. If you withdraw attention,
Speaker 1: you have the opposite effect. So there's that kind of wisdom.
Speaker 1: In Buddhism, we have a similar idea. It's like if
Speaker 1: you think about your life as a garden. The idea
Speaker 1: is like, there's various seeds, and depending on what seeds
Speaker 1: you water and give nourishment too, you have different plants
Speaker 1: in your garden. So that's quite similar. And when I
Speaker 1: thought about this parable a little bit, there's something that's
Speaker 1: not sitting well with me. Okay, it's like this distinction
Speaker 1: between the good and the bad wolf. We can't experience
Speaker 1: anything good without the contrast to bad. For example, if
Speaker 1: you want to experience good weather, you can only know
Speaker 1: what's good in the weather when you also have experience
Speaker 1: with the bad weather. You know, imagine you only have
Speaker 1: good weather. Then soon enough you make distinctions between certain
Speaker 1: kinds of good weather, and some of the good weather
Speaker 1: becomes bad weather. I feel we need to have respect
Speaker 1: for this bad wolf. And I think if we have
Speaker 1: respect for both wolves, the good and the bad wolf,
Speaker 1: then maybe the good wolf is the wolf we decide
Speaker 1: to live with the wolf we let to be our
Speaker 1: companion and be in our house. And maybe the bad
Speaker 1: wolf is the wild wolf which we allow to be
Speaker 1: around and visit and learn from too, Because when you
Speaker 1: think you are making something good happen in your life,
Speaker 1: if you make too much of a good thing happen
Speaker 1: in your life, then maybe it becomes a bad thing,
Speaker 1: and then you need the other wolf to shake that up. Anyway,
Speaker 1: I want to think of the parable, not so much
Speaker 1: in a black and white manner, but extend some love
Speaker 1: and respect to this bad wolf.
Speaker 3: So something I'm going to be doing a little more
Speaker 3: often is ask you, the listener, to reflect on what
Speaker 3: you're hearing. We strongly believe that knowledge is power, but
Speaker 3: only if combined with action and integration. So before we
Speaker 3: move on, I'd like to ask you what's coming up
Speaker 3: for you as you listen to this. Are there any
Speaker 3: things you're currently doing or feeding your bad wolf that
Speaker 3: might make sense to remove, or any things you could
Speaker 3: do to feed your good wolf that you're not currently doing. So,
Speaker 3: if you have the headspace for it, I'd love if
Speaker 3: you could just pause for a second and ask yourself,
Speaker 3: what's one thing I could do today or tonight to
Speaker 3: feed my good Wolf. Whatever your thing is, a really
Speaker 3: useful strategy can be having something external, a prompt or
Speaker 3: a friend, or a tool that regularly nudges you back
Speaker 3: towards awareness and intentionality. For the past year, I've been
Speaker 3: sending little good Wolf reminders to some of my friends
Speaker 3: and community members, just quick, little SMS messages two times
Speaker 3: per week that give them a little bit of wisdom
Speaker 3: and remind them to pause for a second and come
Speaker 3: off autopilot. If you want, I can send them to
Speaker 3: you too. I do it totally for free, and people
Speaker 3: seem to really love them. Just drop your information at
Speaker 3: oneufeed dot net slash sms and I can send them
Speaker 3: to you. It's totally free, and if you end up
Speaker 3: not liking the little reminders, you can easily opt out.
Speaker 3: That's one you feed dot net slash sms. And now
Speaker 3: back to the episode. It's certainly a parable that at
Speaker 3: first glance makes a lot of sense and your life
Speaker 3: that's really good. And then you get deeper into it
Speaker 3: and you really start to realize, like ostracizing the quote
Speaker 3: unquote bad parts of ourselves doesn't really work, And I
Speaker 3: think that leads us really well into the core idea
Speaker 3: of this book, which is about feeling fully alive. So
Speaker 3: talk to me about what that means to you. What
Speaker 3: does this aliveness or fully alive mean to you.
Speaker 1: Well, we can look at it as a bodily feeling,
Speaker 1: and I know for myself for many years, but then
Speaker 1: also in working with other people, there is a tendency
Speaker 1: to want to feel good all of the time. When
Speaker 1: you have a strong desire to feel good all of
Speaker 1: the time, it's easy to associate feeling alive with feeling good.
Speaker 1: Like if I feel loudsy, shitty, you know, not up
Speaker 1: to my best self, then I don't really feel fully alive.
Speaker 1: Took me a long time to figure out that basically,
Speaker 1: I'm excluding all these times when I'm not feeling great
Speaker 1: from my sense of aliveness. And then I begin to investigate, well,
Speaker 1: isn't there a more fundamental sense of being alive that
Speaker 1: underlies both good and bad states? And sure enough, just
Speaker 1: the vividness of sensorial engagement with the world, whether the
Speaker 1: result of that engagement is what I call good or bad,
Speaker 1: there is that sense of a liveness. I notice that
Speaker 1: when I bring attention to the activity of breathing, which
Speaker 1: is really just the sensations of breathing. It's expanding and contracting.
Speaker 1: There's a basic sense of just being. What else can
Speaker 1: I say? Alive? Bodily isn't mentally aware, And this almost
Speaker 1: for me, has a kind of bubbly feeling that's underlying
Speaker 1: whatever content life brings up moment after moments. So that's
Speaker 1: what I call aliveness, and I am noticing that that
Speaker 1: sense is available at all times. My question is how
Speaker 1: do I tune into that?
Speaker 3: Yeah, because aliveness is certainly a concept that resonates with me,
Speaker 3: and it's something that I go, yeah, I want more
Speaker 3: of that. But it's hard not to equate that with
Speaker 3: necessarily having lots of energy. Meaning a lot of times
Speaker 3: when I don't feel quote unquote alive, it's because I
Speaker 3: feel really tired or sort of dull, And so it's
Speaker 3: easy to sort of then take those states and say, well,
Speaker 3: I'm not fully alive. But I think what you're saying
Speaker 3: is even in those moments, there is a way to
Speaker 3: be fully alive, even if the experience you're having is
Speaker 3: one of tieiredness or dullness. Is that accurate?
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's accurate. You could ask yourself, you know, what's
Speaker 1: my objection to tiredness. I mean, I'm asking you, what's
Speaker 1: your objection to being tired?
Speaker 3: It seems to have some feeling in the body that
Speaker 3: I don't quite like. It's an interesting question because I've
Speaker 3: asked myself that a few times, and I don't think
Speaker 3: I have a clear answer yet. Yeah, I mean, obviously,
Speaker 3: some of the time tiredness feels negative because my life
Speaker 3: has a demand on it in that moment that I
Speaker 3: do something which feels harder to do when I'm tired
Speaker 3: versus when I'm energetic. So some of the time I
Speaker 3: think my objection is simply like, Okay, this feels harder
Speaker 3: to do than it would if I had more energy.
Speaker 3: I've shared this on the show a number of times lately.
Speaker 3: One of the things that I used to struggle with
Speaker 3: a lot was depression. And I don't know whether I
Speaker 3: still do or I don't, or it's low mood, but
Speaker 3: one of the things I've realized is that tiredness feels
Speaker 3: to me like depression. I've really learned to ref phrase that.
Speaker 3: You know, at the end of the day, instead of
Speaker 3: thinking I'm depressed or something's wrong, I think I'm tired.
Speaker 3: And that's a completely different framing of that set of sensations.
Speaker 1: Yeah, one thing I share with my students is the
Speaker 1: idea of bodyfulness instead of mindfulness, which is like how
Speaker 1: work that everyone has heard now. And by bodyfulness, I
Speaker 1: mean specifically attending to the bodily sensations that you find
Speaker 1: underneath any interpretation you give it. Like, you have certain
Speaker 1: bodily sensations and you interpret them as depression or you
Speaker 1: interpret them as diaredness, but actually, in the sensations themselves,
Speaker 1: you find no evidence for either depression or tiredness. The
Speaker 1: sensations are just what they are. Okay. So let's say
Speaker 1: that any bodily sensation has a certain level of intensity,
Speaker 1: more or less on some spectrum of intensity. You know,
Speaker 1: your tiredness or or sense of depression has a certain
Speaker 1: kind of intensity. Well, that intensity itself could be framed
Speaker 1: as aliveness. So there's a certain intensity in my tiredness.
Speaker 1: It's like I feel like pull to the ground, away
Speaker 1: from my activity. I can't bring myself to do this,
Speaker 1: Like my eyes are dropping, I'm exhausted. I don't want
Speaker 1: to do anything that's a certain kind of intensity. It's
Speaker 1: not the excitement that most people seek, but it's it's
Speaker 1: an intensity. So your aliveness manifests as this intensity of
Speaker 1: tiredness right now. Now, if I drop my objection and
Speaker 1: I say as fully as possible yes to this experience
Speaker 1: of tiredness, then another world opens up. I give up
Speaker 1: my judgmental framework of like certain states of mind should
Speaker 1: be the case, and now this shouldn't be the case,
Speaker 1: and this unconditional aliveness starts to open up.
Speaker 3: I have a number of questions that come out of
Speaker 3: what you just said. The first would be this intensity
Speaker 3: scale that you're describing. When sensation are on the lower
Speaker 3: end of that scale, are you saying that we're less
Speaker 3: alive in those moments or are you simply saying that
Speaker 3: we can tune in to wherever we are on there
Speaker 3: as a way of just touching this bodyfulness that you're
Speaker 3: talking about.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm saying that it's not that if there's low
Speaker 1: intensity then you're less alive. What I'm noticing is that
Speaker 1: some people have preference for high intensity, some people have
Speaker 1: a preference for low intensity.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, A certain lifestyle evolves from that. I'm saying, what
Speaker 1: would it be like to be more inclusive of the
Speaker 1: whole spectrum of intensity and not try to live in
Speaker 1: accord with your preferences, but discover the other part of
Speaker 1: the spectrum that you don't like so much as much
Speaker 1: as part of your liveness. As anything. You're not going
Speaker 1: to get rid of all the things you don't like
Speaker 1: in life, if all the states of mind you don't like,
Speaker 1: so why not just say yes to them as occurring
Speaker 1: now and then nothing less forever.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it was really interesting earlier where you said, like
Speaker 3: if you only had good weather, you'd start to break
Speaker 3: that good weather up into good and bad weather like that.
Speaker 3: That is a habit of mind to do that, right,
Speaker 3: And I certainly think that we could look at modern
Speaker 3: culture in that way, in which it seems in some
Speaker 3: cases that what we've done is as our material conditions
Speaker 3: have gotten so so so much better than they used
Speaker 3: to be. We are now, you know, getting even more refined.
Speaker 3: Like you know, I recognize it in myself. It's like
Speaker 3: sixty nine to seventy two degrees are like the only
Speaker 3: if I'm not careful, like the only okay temperature. It's
Speaker 3: like the range narrows right on what's okay? If you're
Speaker 3: not recognizing this way of dividing up, And I mean
Speaker 3: there's the saying can't quote my zen figures enough, but
Speaker 3: it was one of the patriarchs saying something along the
Speaker 3: lines like make the slightest distinction right between things and
Speaker 3: heaven and earth, kind of like you know, divide.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, I think that's exactly right. Luxuries become
Speaker 1: necessities in the course of history.
Speaker 3: It's a good way of saying it. Yeah, that's a
Speaker 3: good way of saying it.
Speaker 1: Once you have certain standards, then you start to expect them.
Speaker 3: Yep.
Speaker 1: I recently moved to a new house in the mountains
Speaker 1: and it has a heating system that basically is dysfunctional.
Speaker 1: There's a wood burning stove, there's in floor heating, but
Speaker 1: most zones are shut down, and I need to use
Speaker 1: the summer to get a new heating system into the house.
Speaker 1: I have a three year old son and he needs
Speaker 1: to sleep in a room that is, you know, in
Speaker 1: that range that you just gave, right, be a little
Speaker 1: warmer for the little bodies. So I have to take
Speaker 1: care of But for myself, it's kind of exciting to
Speaker 1: camp out in my own house, Like I wake up
Speaker 1: because I'm at eight thousand feet at this house is
Speaker 1: like the winter long, so even now in May, you know,
Speaker 1: temperatures are below freezing sometimes, and then you know, I'll
Speaker 1: wake up to a cold house. And so what I'm
Speaker 1: talking about is an openness to somewhat unpredictable conditions. And please,
Speaker 1: I'm conditioned to expect a well heated house right in
Speaker 1: the time and age that I live, and so to
Speaker 1: just feel this openness in myself to say like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm stepping into this cold house and I'm going to
Speaker 1: have to do some work to get a fire going
Speaker 1: and so forth, and just put a jacket on. For
Speaker 1: us modern human beings, it might be important to discover
Speaker 1: that conditions are more workable than we think, right.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Well, I think that's an interesting phrase, workable, right,
Speaker 3: because depending on how you take that phrase, I think
Speaker 3: you're taking it to mean you can work within those
Speaker 3: unpleasant conditions in fruitful ways. But I think for many
Speaker 3: of us what that means is any unpleasant condition, we
Speaker 3: need to work to get rid of it. And that's
Speaker 3: part of the problem, right, is that it's very easy
Speaker 3: when you know something can't change, to simply go, this
Speaker 3: is the way it is, all right, get used to it.
Speaker 3: But considering that we have so many different ways to change,
Speaker 3: so many different sensations. You know, it's cold, make it warmer,
Speaker 3: I'm bored, Get on my phone. I mean, whatever they are,
Speaker 3: we have so many ways of changing it that we
Speaker 3: get hung up in it. You talk later in the
Speaker 3: book about emotional postures, and we'll get into that in
Speaker 3: a second. But I do think there's an emotional posture
Speaker 3: that says anything that I don't like, fix it. It's
Speaker 3: an habituated reaction to I don't like what I'm feeling,
Speaker 3: so I become fixated on changing it. You know, like
Speaker 3: if I'm cold, it's almost like instead of embracing cold
Speaker 3: and trying to be cold, I am suddenly now on
Speaker 3: a mission to eradicate cold, and my brain and starts
Speaker 3: telling me that until I do that, nothing is going
Speaker 3: to be okay.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I speak of mental postures.
Speaker 3: But that's right, you call mental postures.
Speaker 1: So here, maybe we can look at it this way.
Speaker 1: There's a mental posture that says only if this condition
Speaker 1: gets changed, I will be okay, or feel alive or
Speaker 1: feel it's worth living. Or we can look at this
Speaker 1: the other way around and say I find a way
Speaker 1: to feel already alive. Whatever condition there is and then
Speaker 1: I experience the freedom to change certain things and leave
Speaker 1: other things unchanged. So it's not about cultivating a posture
Speaker 1: of passivity and just taking everything as it is and
Speaker 1: not engage with the world. But it is about reversing
Speaker 1: where I'm coming from. Do I need the change in
Speaker 1: order to be okay? Or can I be already okay?
Speaker 1: Experience situations as generally workable, and then change some things.
Speaker 3: Or not right, and thank you for the correction on
Speaker 3: mental postures. I think the mental posture. Let me just
Speaker 3: set aside that phrase for a second. I'd like to
Speaker 3: come back to it and have you explain it. The
Speaker 3: habituated response is uncomfortable change it, whereas what your suggesting
Speaker 3: is we pause that habituated response, we feel into what's
Speaker 3: actually really occurring there. We allow it to be there
Speaker 3: for at least a time, and then we think about
Speaker 3: what the wise response would be.
Speaker 1: Yeah, think about or feel out what an appropriate response
Speaker 1: would be. Sometimes it actually takes too much energy or
Speaker 1: effort to change something just let it be, But sometimes
Speaker 1: it's worth it, so we'll have to feel that out.
Speaker 1: It's a kind of inner craft to make that call.
Speaker 3: I want to talk a little bit about staying on
Speaker 3: this concept of aliveness, and you call it the path
Speaker 3: of aliveness, and you quote a gentleman who's been a
Speaker 3: guest on this show multiple times, Steven C. Hayes, with
Speaker 3: a phrase he has sometimes it's not about feeling better.
Speaker 3: It's about feeling better, meaning it's not about making our
Speaker 3: feelings improved, it's about getting better at having feelings. You
Speaker 3: also talk about the path of aliveness being a process
Speaker 3: of ripening, and you say that you've got to find
Speaker 3: the right balance between letting it happen and making it happen.
Speaker 3: And I think this gets to what you and I
Speaker 3: were just kind of talking about, when is it time
Speaker 3: to make something happen and when is it time to
Speaker 3: let something happen? And talk to me about how you
Speaker 3: might feel your way into that. I guess it depends
Speaker 3: on what the situation we're talking about. Is that maybe
Speaker 3: too general a question, I'm not sure.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I can say something general and then if you
Speaker 1: want to, you know, look at an example. That's fine too.
Speaker 1: One of the big figures in the history of zen, Dogan,
Speaker 1: founder of the Soto School in the thirteenth century, has
Speaker 1: this phrase to carry a self forward and actualize the
Speaker 1: ten thousand things. The ten thousand things is the world
Speaker 1: in all its details and nuances. So to carry a
Speaker 1: self forward and actualize the ten thousand things is delusion.
Speaker 1: To let the ten thousand things come forward and actualize
Speaker 1: the self is enlightenment. So this makes the distinction between
Speaker 1: making it happen and letting it happen even bigger. In
Speaker 1: making it happen, you basically establish a self visa via
Speaker 1: the world, and the self ventures out to know the
Speaker 1: world and manipulate the world and change the world in
Speaker 1: accord with this.
Speaker 5: Cells references this Dogan's as this delusion. But to let
Speaker 5: this idea of the self drop, let's say, let's just
Speaker 5: imagine that's possible, meaning establishing a sense of openness so
Speaker 5: that the world, in its nuances we just talked about
Speaker 5: sensations that are not yet interpreted, to let these nuances
Speaker 5: come forward and basically teach the self what to do,
Speaker 5: actualize what the self needs to be at this moment.
Speaker 5: This is called enlightenment, and this is more of a
Speaker 5: posture of letting it happen. So let's think about this
Speaker 5: also in terms of thinking and feeling. If you approach
Speaker 5: the world with a sense that you always already know
Speaker 5: what needs to be done.
Speaker 4: That would be like, oh, I'm making it happen, like
Speaker 4: I know what I believe, I know what's important, and
Speaker 4: then you go make it happen.
Speaker 1: If you take more posture of not knowing, which is
Speaker 1: something that's then emphasizes as you know, now, not knowing
Speaker 1: meaning there's always more about the world than I can
Speaker 1: ever know or say about it. I am letting the
Speaker 1: world assemble a new moment after moment and find out
Speaker 1: what might need to happen. Right I'm letting it happen.
Speaker 1: I'm waiting for the next appropriate action to arise, not
Speaker 1: knowing what it would be. And you know this as
Speaker 1: an interviewer. You know, if you have a preconceived idea
Speaker 1: of how the interview should.
Speaker 4: Be going, right like, then you get a pretty flat thing.
Speaker 4: If you let it happen means like there's unpredictability in
Speaker 4: this situation. You know, you're you're finding out what the
Speaker 4: interaction leads you to, and so then it's more alive.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's a really good example. The other
Speaker 3: example I wanted to talk about was spiritual practice because obviously,
Speaker 3: as a zen teacher and being part of a zen lineage.
Speaker 3: It's not exactly a path of doing nothing. I mean,
Speaker 3: on one hand, it is, but sitting for as long
Speaker 3: as we sit in zazen and meditation going on the
Speaker 3: type of retreats do there is effort there, right, There
Speaker 3: is effort that's happening, and so there is an element
Speaker 3: of making it happen. There's a reason that people engage
Speaker 3: in arduous practice, and there's a sense also of letting
Speaker 3: it happen. And I would say, I think your example
Speaker 3: of interviewing is good.
Speaker 1: I do some.
Speaker 3: Degree of work getting ready, so I feel like I
Speaker 3: know the person's work and I have a sense of
Speaker 3: what's going on, and then, like you said, when I
Speaker 3: get into it, ideally I let it happen. I'll say
Speaker 3: a little bit about that from a spiritual practice perspective,
Speaker 3: because a lot of people get confused on this point, right.
Speaker 3: They go, well, if it all is just going to
Speaker 3: happen on its own, then maybe I don't need to
Speaker 3: do anything to get closer to in life, men are awakening.
Speaker 1: We live as a tangle of habits. Basically, that's a
Speaker 1: great phrase.
Speaker 4: Yep.
Speaker 1: When I say that, I mean all kinds of things
Speaker 1: I mean the way I move my body through the world.
Speaker 1: You now, sometimes you see fathers and sons. Since we're
Speaker 1: both boys, you know, let's say that you can discover
Speaker 1: in yourself like wow, I'm like, I'm doing this just
Speaker 1: like my dad. There's nothing conscious about this. I discovered
Speaker 1: this about you know, the way I drive. At one
Speaker 1: point I was noticing my posture and driving. It's like,
Speaker 1: what am I doing? Why am I doing this? It's like, oh,
Speaker 1: that is how my dad used to drive his car.
Speaker 1: So you're this tangle of habits. It's very physical, and
Speaker 1: then there's also mental habits like the way you think
Speaker 1: about things, emotional habits and so forth. So if you
Speaker 1: just let that happen, then there's no active participation in
Speaker 1: untangling this tangle. So some effort is nes aia I agree.
Speaker 1: So if you think about meditation practice, for example, it's
Speaker 1: quite uncomfortable to sit for extended periods of time not moving.
Speaker 1: But if you trust what say a more experienced practitioner
Speaker 1: demonstrates to you that cultivating this stillness has a positive effect,
Speaker 1: you need to make an effort to just keep sitting
Speaker 1: still for a while. Okay, But as you're making this effort,
Speaker 1: there can be a discovery that there's a stillness in
Speaker 1: your mind that is not manufactured. It's kind of already there.
Speaker 1: It's more like you need to join that stillness that's
Speaker 1: already there. Rather than creating a stillness. Then you're switching
Speaker 1: over to more letting the stillness happen. You're inviting it
Speaker 1: to take over. That's why I think it's useful to
Speaker 1: speak about a balance between making it happen and letting
Speaker 1: it happen. And in a way, that is also a
Speaker 1: question of maturity. When we're newer to something, we need
Speaker 1: to make it happen more, and as we're discovering what
Speaker 1: the territory is, then we can relax that effort and
Speaker 1: invite it more and let it happen.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 1: All sounds kind of fuzzy, but if you are familiar
Speaker 1: with any kind of art or craft, it's absolutely the
Speaker 1: territory that you work with every day.
Speaker 3: I mean, it certainly is. Think about that as far
Speaker 3: as a guitar player, right, there is a period or
Speaker 3: there are times where I am actively practicing right, I'm
Speaker 3: making an effort, But the times that most matter to
Speaker 3: me are the times when I'm somehow like that's not
Speaker 3: what I'm doing right now. Right now, I'm just going
Speaker 3: to play. And then you relax that effort ideally, and
Speaker 3: then something emerges that you simply, like you said, couldn't
Speaker 3: have manufactured it because two seconds before I played it,
Speaker 3: I didn't know it existed. Yeah right, it simply wasn't there,
Speaker 3: and now here it is.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So in spiritual practice, whatever that is, there would
Speaker 1: be all another conversation, you know, or spiritual mindfullest practice.
Speaker 1: For example, we can define as the intention to bring
Speaker 1: attention to sensation or sensory experiences without thinking about them.
Speaker 1: You're just bringing attention to what you are sensing without
Speaker 1: thinking about it. Well, if we think about this habit
Speaker 1: of mind that things are only real when I have
Speaker 1: packaged them in some kind of conceptual frame, right then
Speaker 1: I need to make an effort to leave that conceptualization
Speaker 1: and that verbalization and that interpretation aside, and I'm making
Speaker 1: an effort to just notice without thinking about it. As
Speaker 1: I'm making that effort, I discover maybe just the briefest
Speaker 1: moments of a mind that can just know sensation without
Speaker 1: thinking about and I discover it as a layer kind
Speaker 1: of off the metaphors card a layer of my mind
Speaker 1: that is possible, that exists, that is available, And as
Speaker 1: I'm tuning into that modality of my mind, it can
Speaker 1: become a little bit more stable. It lasts for a
Speaker 1: longer time, and all of a sudden there's less effort
Speaker 1: in just noticing without thinking about. But I had to
Speaker 1: bring myself to that edge, or else I wouldn't have
Speaker 1: even discovered that dimension the remembering.
Speaker 3: So I'd like to pivot a little bit here and
Speaker 3: talk about the idea of wisdom. It's a phrase that
Speaker 3: you use throughout the book, and you say, wisdom is
Speaker 3: a moment to moment ability to live in accord with
Speaker 3: how things actually exist. Say more about that.
Speaker 1: Well, do we really know how things actually exist? And
Speaker 1: my answer would be no, we don't know things actually exist.
Speaker 1: We could maybe say we know how things don't exist.
Speaker 1: Things do not exist, as our ideas about those things.
Speaker 1: We have all kinds of ideas and beliefs about how
Speaker 1: things actually exist. Well, that's not how they exist. There's
Speaker 1: always more to everything than what we can know and say,
Speaker 1: and this more to be aware of this more, then
Speaker 1: you're in the territory of wisdom. You're allowing this more
Speaker 1: to function through you and in your life moment after moment.
Speaker 1: So how things actually exist is a kind of mystery.
Speaker 1: You're inviting that mystery in your life. This is complicated
Speaker 1: to talk about, but not necessarily complicated to live moment
Speaker 1: after moment. You're inviting that mystery to give you instruction
Speaker 1: how to respond appropriately to the situations.
Speaker 3: So listener, consider this. You're halfway through the episode Integration reminder.
Speaker 3: Remember knowledge is power, but only if combined with action
Speaker 3: and integration. It can be transformative to take a minute
Speaker 3: to synthesize information rather than just ingesting it in a
Speaker 3: detached way. So let's collectively take a moment to pause
Speaker 3: and reflect. What's your one big insight so far and
Speaker 3: how can you put it into practice in your life? Seriously,
Speaker 3: just take a second, pause the audio and reflect. It
Speaker 3: can be so powerful to have these reminders to stop
Speaker 3: and be present. Cant it If you want to keep
Speaker 3: this momentum going that you built with this little exercise,
Speaker 3: I'd encourage you to get on our Good Wolf Reminders
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Speaker 3: insightful little prompts and wisdom from podcast guests. They're a
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Speaker 3: and they're a helpful way to not get lost in
Speaker 3: the busyness and forget what is important. You can join
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Speaker 3: you can get off a list really easily. So far,
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Speaker 3: one you feed dot net slash sms and let's feed
Speaker 3: our good wolves together. Yeah, it's that appropriate response you
Speaker 3: write that, Zen maaster Yunman says the lifetime of teaching
Speaker 3: he got was basically an inappropriate response.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 3: To me, that is kind of one of the big
Speaker 3: things to me that I'm after is an appropriate or
Speaker 3: wise response to things. And I think what you said
Speaker 3: there is really important in that a lot of times
Speaker 3: for me, wisdom does come, as you said, in recognizing
Speaker 3: there may be things going on here that I don't
Speaker 3: yet understand or know. It's that pause where I go, well,
Speaker 3: what else is there that I don't know? And this
Speaker 3: can be really practical, right, Like I used to work
Speaker 3: in the software business and we would come across a
Speaker 3: problem and somebody would describe the problem, and immediately in
Speaker 3: my brain I would, based on a lot of years,
Speaker 3: I would go, I think I know what that problem is.
Speaker 3: I think I know what it is. And a lot
Speaker 3: of times I was right, but a lot of times
Speaker 3: I was wrong. And if I were just to stop
Speaker 3: and go, Okay, that's what I think, but let me
Speaker 3: learn more, let me learn a little bit more, let
Speaker 3: me ask a couple more questions, I could save the
Speaker 3: whole team a ton of effort because if we chased
Speaker 3: what I thought it was, we could waste a lot
Speaker 3: of time going in the exact wrong direction. And it
Speaker 3: was just a matter of stopping my thinking. I know
Speaker 3: that's a very practical example, but the ideas and you
Speaker 3: describe it as a certain humility in not thinking we
Speaker 3: know everything.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I have a question for you. When you
Speaker 1: pause and you are inquiring into this, what else? Or
Speaker 1: this more? Where are you looking?
Speaker 3: Well, I guess it depends on the domain. I mean
Speaker 3: some of it. I'm looking in my mind. I'm using
Speaker 3: questions to turn the thing around different ways, right, Like
Speaker 3: working with an emotional situation, A question is like what
Speaker 3: am I making this mean? And what else could it mean? Right,
Speaker 3: recognizing that I'm giving it a meaning almost automatically and instantly,
Speaker 3: but relaxing that and saying what else could it mean?
Speaker 3: But then there's also the senses of you know, what
Speaker 3: am I feeling in my body? My emotions. It's trying
Speaker 3: to tune in on multiple levels and look at things
Speaker 3: from multiple positions or viewpoints.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I operate with a concept that I got from
Speaker 1: the American philosopher and psychotherapist Eugene Gentlen. He invented that
Speaker 1: phrase felt sense in his philosophy. The felt sense is
Speaker 1: pivotal k. But let's say, experience, how do you discover
Speaker 1: what a felt sense is? It's like the easiest for
Speaker 1: most people is like you bring attention to the center
Speaker 1: of your body. It's like drop your attention from your
Speaker 1: head down into warlike your belly, and from this center
Speaker 1: of your body start to feel maybe the whole body.
Speaker 1: Maybe you can say that feel what you feel all
Speaker 1: over the body. Okay, so that's a necessary skill in
Speaker 1: order to begin to understand what is meant by felt says.
Speaker 1: But now the idea is every situation is represented in
Speaker 1: the body. Every situation will elicit a certain felt sense.
Speaker 1: So you can try this out, and I use the
Speaker 1: word situation in a very wide way, like the situation
Speaker 1: could be the relationship you have with another person, and
Speaker 1: you can think of that relationship, say like, oh, the
Speaker 1: relationship to person X. What's the felt sense of this relationship?
Speaker 1: And then you would need time to explicate in words,
Speaker 1: in understanding all the things that are relevant and knowable
Speaker 1: to you about this relationship. And it's basically inexhaustible. There's
Speaker 1: all kinds of nuances and aspects in this relationship that
Speaker 1: you've never articulated. That's the more. That's the more. So
Speaker 1: if somebody presents a problem to you you're a software engineer,
Speaker 1: there's always something in the background that they haven't presented yet,
Speaker 1: but that is already part of their presentation, and you
Speaker 1: can start to tune into that. How do you do that?
Speaker 1: You're not doing it necessarily with a kind of focused,
Speaker 1: inquiring mind. You can do it by dropping back into
Speaker 1: this felt sense that is a representation of the whole situation,
Speaker 1: and you can use different metaphors dig more in that soil,
Speaker 1: like what else is there? But the same is true
Speaker 1: for say, your experience of a song. Since you're a
Speaker 1: guitar player. Right, music's maybe important to you. So like
Speaker 1: you listen to a song and it brings up a
Speaker 1: complex felt sense. Now, if somebody asked you about what's
Speaker 1: so intriguing to you about the song? Why do you
Speaker 1: like it so much? If you now pause and don't
Speaker 1: say the obvious thing, like, oh, it's because such an
Speaker 1: I like this kind of music, or you know it's
Speaker 1: my favorite artist or whatever. If you now pause and
Speaker 1: really investigate, inquire into feel out what is it about
Speaker 1: this song, you discover new things. In my view, it's
Speaker 1: a dialogue between a bodily felt sense and a conceptual
Speaker 1: mind that is in constant sense making mode. It's always
Speaker 1: trying to make sense of complexity. And wisdom is to
Speaker 1: know that we only grasp little bits and pieces of
Speaker 1: that depth. So I think it's important for all kinds
Speaker 1: of pursuits. It's practical, but it's also very artistic. Now,
Speaker 1: for example, an artist, when do you know that something
Speaker 1: is complete? When do you know a poem is complete
Speaker 1: and you don't want to do more editing work on it, Well,
Speaker 1: there's just a felt sense about it. It's like now
Speaker 1: it's complete, right, And then you have to learn to
Speaker 1: respect that, because if you keep editing, you might destroy
Speaker 1: your boem. You know, it gets worse by doing more
Speaker 1: to it.
Speaker 3: You know, when you talk about that felt sense and
Speaker 3: the body component of it, neither the conceptual understanding nor
Speaker 3: the felt sense alone are sufficient, because as you said,
Speaker 3: we are a tangle of habits to a certain degree, right,
Speaker 3: and so a lot of times, you know, particularly people
Speaker 3: who are severely traumatized, I'm going to use that as
Speaker 3: an example for what all of us have to a
Speaker 3: slightly lesser degree, is that we know people who are
Speaker 3: severely traumatized are having a felt sense of being terrified
Speaker 3: in a situation in which there is no terror, right.
Speaker 3: And so if you only go off felt sense, you
Speaker 3: don't evolve. You know, there has to be some degree
Speaker 3: of bringing the mind in that says, hey, this is happening,
Speaker 3: and this is happening, and I love what you said.
Speaker 3: It's like a dialogue between these things. And I think
Speaker 3: that a lot of times people tend to really advocate
Speaker 3: strongly for one of those or the other. You have
Speaker 3: the logic people who are just talking about how your
Speaker 3: brain and you rationalize it out, and then you have
Speaker 3: the other people who are like just trust your gut.
Speaker 3: Just trust your gut, like in any situation, I'm like, wow, okay,
Speaker 3: And as a middle way kind of guy, I'm always
Speaker 3: in a little of both. But I love what you
Speaker 3: actually said there, the dialogue between the two being so valuable,
Speaker 3: and also then knowing like which one do I tend
Speaker 3: to over rely on? You know which side of that
Speaker 3: dialogue does most of the talking, and maybe then let
Speaker 3: the other partner have a little bit more to say
Speaker 3: as we sense make That's another good phrase.
Speaker 1: It may be a little bit more complex. I'll use
Speaker 1: another phrase that your gene Genlen coined. It is carrying forward.
Speaker 1: So when you are able to make sense of your
Speaker 1: felt sense conceptually, there is a fittingness that we can
Speaker 1: also a sense like there will be a shift in
Speaker 1: your felt sense when you hit the mark say you're
Speaker 1: using the right phrase or you're playing the right note,
Speaker 1: and then it's like, oh, yeah, yeah, that's right, this
Speaker 1: is what's needed now that would be your sense of appropriateness.
Speaker 1: You learn to trust that sense of appropriateness and say
Speaker 1: oh I'm going to go with this, yes, yes, right,
Speaker 1: then something shifts. So I use the word articulation here,
Speaker 1: your articulation of The felt sense is an integral part
Speaker 1: of the process because when it's fitting, your felt sense
Speaker 1: shifts into something else. It actually becomes something new from
Speaker 1: which new steps arise. If you do something that is
Speaker 1: not in accord with your felt sense, you continue to
Speaker 1: experience a certain sense of stuckness. Yeah, you did something,
Speaker 1: but it didn't carry it forward in an appropriate way.
Speaker 1: So it's not only that we decide between like which
Speaker 1: part do we let speak like the feeling or the thinking.
Speaker 1: It is to recognize that the two are completely dependent
Speaker 1: on each other. You need to learn to first articulate
Speaker 1: and trust that certain things are the right next steps
Speaker 1: for you. There's nobody else who can take that step,
Speaker 1: and as that happens, your feeling shifts in your life
Speaker 1: actually evolves in some kind of appropriate way. So yeah,
Speaker 1: dialogue and always checking with your body full presence whether
Speaker 1: this is indeed the right next step to take.
Speaker 3: What do you think is happening in cases where we
Speaker 3: feel really certain. So let me go back to my
Speaker 3: software example. I learned that lesson the hard way because
Speaker 3: I felt I would form an answer in my mind
Speaker 3: of what was happening, and it felt right, like everything
Speaker 3: inside me went yep. Okay, that all feels good.
Speaker 2: But it was wrong.
Speaker 3: What is happening in those cases? Because we do know
Speaker 3: that one of the big problems is I mean, philosophers
Speaker 3: would say this has been a big problem for a
Speaker 3: long time, but it was articulated by I can't remember who,
Speaker 3: which was basically, the idiots are extremely sure of themselves
Speaker 3: and the people who people who don't know for sure
Speaker 3: don't have as much to say about it. So there
Speaker 3: is a lot of people who run through life with
Speaker 3: a certainty that I think feels to them right. Is
Speaker 3: it the certainty that is the problem there? Not the
Speaker 3: felt sense of rightness, but the certainty that causes there
Speaker 3: not to be a deeper inquiry what do you think
Speaker 3: is happening there? And I guess what I'm pushing back
Speaker 3: on a little bit is this sense that what will
Speaker 3: feel right inside of us is necessarily right.
Speaker 1: I can't really speak for other people, huh. I can
Speaker 1: only sort of extrapolate from my own experience. And then
Speaker 1: I see sort of when I work closely with others,
Speaker 1: is like, oh, is that happening for them too? And
Speaker 1: it looks like, yeah, it's happening for them too. But
Speaker 1: let me speak about my own experience. There are myriad
Speaker 1: ways in which we lead ourselves into disembodiment. And what
Speaker 1: I mean by that is like, there are many ways
Speaker 1: that we disconnect from our body, and we live mostly
Speaker 1: then in our conceptual minds and also in our belief systems.
Speaker 1: And this disembodied functioning serves a purpose. It actually serves
Speaker 1: the purpose of creating certainty. It can feel more grounded
Speaker 1: to know what's what and what you believe, and then
Speaker 1: from that sense of certainty, yes, certain feelings come to
Speaker 1: alster this to your point, it's like, how embodied are
Speaker 1: you in that moment where you are so certain? Is
Speaker 1: really the question. It's like, what if you do pause
Speaker 1: but your thinking mind aside for a moment, drop lower
Speaker 1: in your body and feel the situation. How much certainty
Speaker 1: is there in any situation? Well, when I do that,
Speaker 1: I don't find certainty. Ever, there is no certainty that
Speaker 1: is there in a general way. There's more like a
Speaker 1: momentary sense of this is a good next step. Right,
Speaker 1: this is a good next step, and that's all. And
Speaker 1: then the situation already shifts, and then there needs to
Speaker 1: be basically another openness for like what is now the
Speaker 1: next good step? Because you can't live life in generalities.
Speaker 1: I mean, this sounds like a cliche, but life is
Speaker 1: a process, and process means that you go from one
Speaker 1: moment into the next, and then there is basically a
Speaker 1: new openness for like what comes as the next follow
Speaker 1: up step, right, So there can be no certainty about that.
Speaker 1: So again I'm repeating myself, but I think what you're
Speaker 1: bringing up the question really is how embodied are you
Speaker 1: in that moment when you experience that much certainty? And
Speaker 1: my sense is that the idiot that you're bringing up
Speaker 1: is not embodied.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's an interesting thing for me to check out experientially,
Speaker 3: like when I feel certain, if I drop down into
Speaker 3: a felt sense, what is actually there. I'm over using
Speaker 3: this software example, right, but just because it's one that
Speaker 3: we've started with that happened far enough in the past
Speaker 3: that I can't really say, like, was I embodied at all?
Speaker 3: So I want to come back to something we touched
Speaker 3: on earlier that we didn't really talk about, which is
Speaker 3: mental postures. Will you explain what that phrase means to you?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it's transferring basically the meaning of what
Speaker 1: we experience physically a posture to what we can experience
Speaker 1: with the mind, Like let's say you have a posture
Speaker 1: of sitting and lying down and standing, and can we
Speaker 1: use that kind of experienced difference in the mind. It's
Speaker 1: basically frameworks of experiencing that it also feel a certain way. So,
Speaker 1: for example, you could imagine a mental posture of gratitude,
Speaker 1: like many people recommend that find what you can be
Speaker 1: grateful for in your life. If you string moments of
Speaker 1: finding gratitude together, maybe that starts to coalesce as a
Speaker 1: mental posture of gratitude. That is something that you were
Speaker 1: coming from more or less automatically. And some people were
Speaker 1: raised that way or acculturated in that mental posture of
Speaker 1: gratitude that they wouldn't even notice it, you know, maybe
Speaker 1: their parents had it and then it just was part
Speaker 1: of how they were brought up. And for some of us,
Speaker 1: it's like we need to as we talked earlier, we
Speaker 1: need to make an effort now. Similarly, in relationship to wisdom,
Speaker 1: we could have a mental posture of not knowing. Right
Speaker 1: there's the posture of already knowing in the posture of
Speaker 1: not knowing, and it's really up to each of us
Speaker 1: to find out. As you're coming from the posture of
Speaker 1: expertise and already knowing, and as you're coming from the
Speaker 1: posture of not knowing? What's the difference? Like that actually
Speaker 1: relates to the two wolves almost it's like what do
Speaker 1: you feed? Do you feed the posture of not knowing?
Speaker 1: Or do you feed the posture of knowing? Now, in
Speaker 1: my view, it's not so much one or the other
Speaker 1: black and white. It's more of like, can you shift
Speaker 1: because you see what the effects are if you do
Speaker 1: too much of the posture of expertise, then you know
Speaker 1: you can shift over a little bit more to the
Speaker 1: question of dark knowing, or similarly, gratitude or taking drinks
Speaker 1: for brand.
Speaker 3: Pitt so listener and thinking about all that and the
Speaker 3: other great wisdom from today's episode. If you're going to
Speaker 3: isolate just one top insight that you're taking away, what
Speaker 3: would it be? Not your top ten, not the top five?
Speaker 1: Just one? What is it?
Speaker 3: Think about it?
Speaker 1: Got it? Now?
Speaker 3: I ask you, what's one tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny little
Speaker 3: thing you can do today to put it in practice?
Speaker 3: Or maybe just take a baby step towards it. Remember,
Speaker 3: little by little, a little becomes a lot. Profound change
Speaker 3: happens as a result of aggregated tiny actions, not massive
Speaker 3: heroic effort. If you're not already on our good Wolf
Speaker 3: Reminder SMS list, I'd highly recommend it as a tool
Speaker 3: you can leverage to remind you to take those vital
Speaker 3: baby steps forward. You can get on there at oneufeed
Speaker 3: dot net slash sms. It's totally free, and once you're
Speaker 3: on there, I'll send you a couple text messages a
Speaker 3: week with little reminders and nudges. Here's what I recently
Speaker 3: shared to give you an idea of the type of
Speaker 3: stuff I send. Keep practicing even if it seems hopeless.
Speaker 3: Don't strive for perfection, aim for consistency, and no matter what,
Speaker 3: keep showing up for yourself. That was a great gem
Speaker 3: from recent guests Light Watkins. And if you're on the
Speaker 3: fence about joining, remember it's totally free and easy to unsubscribe.
Speaker 3: If you want to get in, I'd love to have
Speaker 3: you there. Just go to one feed dot net slash sms.
Speaker 3: All right back to it. You describe a mental posture
Speaker 3: that I really love, and you said one example. A
Speaker 3: cultural mental posture is that space separates in our perception.
Speaker 3: Objects receive their independent identity through the separating space between them.
Speaker 3: But you were introduced to the view that space connects.
Speaker 3: Say more about that. I love that change in posture
Speaker 3: of the way we just look at things.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I would say the mental posture of space
Speaker 1: separates is rooted in a worldview that basically says, what
Speaker 1: is the world? The world is a collection of independent things,
Speaker 1: and then secondarily those independent things are also related. So
Speaker 1: you and I are different people, and then there's other
Speaker 1: objects in the rooms that we're in, lights and computers
Speaker 1: and screens and stuff, and these are all things, and
Speaker 1: all the things taken together, that's the world. And then
Speaker 1: we have to think about how these things are interrelated.
Speaker 1: If you have that worldview, you are likely to have
Speaker 1: a mental posture of space separates. And if I'm in
Speaker 1: conversation with someone, I'm sitting here and you're sitting over there,
Speaker 1: then I perceive the space between us as basically separating us. Alternatively,
Speaker 1: we could say the world is a field of interactivity,
Speaker 1: and what we call objects are things basically come out
Speaker 1: of that field, temporary even for our bodies. Right, It's
Speaker 1: like we think we are born, like we enter the
Speaker 1: stage of the world, and when we die, we leave
Speaker 1: the stage of the world. But I think of us
Speaker 1: human beings and any being really more as like mushrooms.
Speaker 1: It's like there's the field of the world, and then
Speaker 1: you come out of it, and you're there for a while,
Speaker 1: and then you disappear back into the world. So, if
Speaker 1: that's your view, there's never a time where you are
Speaker 1: disconnected from everything else that happens in space. Now, more
Speaker 1: practically speaking, if I'm in conversation with someone, I actually
Speaker 1: have the practice of widening my sense of space and
Speaker 1: feeling like person I'm talking to and I we are
Speaker 1: in a bubble of space, and we are living in
Speaker 1: this shared space, And this makes a huge difference how
Speaker 1: I feel related to people if like, I'm just in
Speaker 1: my own bubble and here's this other bubble, and now
Speaker 1: we have to think about, like how do we connect.
Speaker 1: If space is already an developing connecting medium, the effort
Speaker 1: to connect is basically near zero.
Speaker 3: I love that when that one really jumped out to
Speaker 3: me in the book, and that idea of a bubble,
Speaker 3: I think that's a really interesting way to frame a
Speaker 3: conversation between two people. Yeah, it's just a beautiful idea
Speaker 3: that kind of takes us to the end here. You
Speaker 3: and I are going to continue in the post show conversation,
Speaker 3: and I want to talk about You give a list
Speaker 3: of different practices of emotional freedom, and I would like
Speaker 3: to explore a few of those in the post show conversation. Listeners,
Speaker 3: if you would like to hear this wonderful conversation that
Speaker 3: Christian and I are about to have lots of other
Speaker 3: conversations with other guests that are only available in our
Speaker 3: community and ad free episodes. You can become part of
Speaker 3: our community by going to oneufeed dot net slash join Christian.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much.
Speaker 3: It's been a real pleasure to talk with you. I'm
Speaker 3: really glad that Paul introduced us and I really enjoyed it.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much. I was very nourishing for me too.
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