Speaker 1: Welcome to five hundred Greatest Songs, a podcast based on
Speaker 1: Rolling Stones hugely popular, influential, and sometimes controversialist.
Speaker 2: I'm Britney Spanos and I'm Rob Sheffield. We're here to
Speaker 2: shed light on the greatest songs ever made and discover
Speaker 2: what makes them so great. This week, we're diving into
Speaker 2: an absolute classic, super Bass by Nicki Minaj.
Speaker 1: The song I've had a lot of fun listening to
Speaker 1: Henripe like all week prior to this.
Speaker 2: Absolutely.
Speaker 3: It places at.
Speaker 1: Number four twenty six on the list, and it was
Speaker 1: released in twenty eleven on as a bonus track, originally
Speaker 1: on the UK edition of Pink Friday, which was Nicki's
Speaker 1: debut album and then ended up becoming her first really,
Speaker 1: really really massive hit as the lead artist.
Speaker 2: Yeah, this was breakthrough hit until this. Who is known
Speaker 2: to really to the general public mostly for features, but
Speaker 2: this was the song that told everybody who the f
Speaker 2: she is. This is where most people heard her for
Speaker 2: the first time, and it shows are off in peak
Speaker 2: form two. So it's a perfect introd.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, Nicki's rise the few years leaning up
Speaker 1: to that was just like so incredible and so amazing.
Speaker 1: I mean, she had released a bunch of mixtapes. She
Speaker 1: released a trio of mixtapes that got a lot of
Speaker 1: people's attention, and we're sort of just like really showing
Speaker 1: off what made her so unique at that time, which
Speaker 1: is like she is one a really excellent rapper. She
Speaker 1: is just like a formidable rapper, but also just like
Speaker 1: so funny and so like she has like these great characters.
Speaker 1: She has like these like great one liners, like you know,
Speaker 1: she kind of was introducing her own cinematic universe almost
Speaker 1: of like like nicky voices and characters and lines like
Speaker 1: you know, it's like like there's always like that joke
Speaker 1: about like her sons.
Speaker 3: Like it's just like you know, how many sons does
Speaker 3: she have? And like it's like kind.
Speaker 1: Of like those types of things like she was introducing
Speaker 1: us with the trio of of mixtapes, ended up getting
Speaker 1: Low Wayne's attention after beating me up Scottie, and that
Speaker 1: ended up getting her signed to Lowayne's label. I mean
Speaker 1: that kind of sets the tone for what will happen
Speaker 1: over the next like two years, but I mean still ongoing,
Speaker 1: but especially those kind of like.
Speaker 3: That first four years of Nicki's career was just kind
Speaker 3: of like hit after hit.
Speaker 1: Of constant Nicki in the Zeigeist moments.
Speaker 2: And just Nikki after Niki never shy about showing off
Speaker 2: her different persona. Remember when she was at the VMA's
Speaker 2: and it was this clip where it was all Roman
Speaker 2: all the way, and it was like, this is what
Speaker 2: she's doing with this spotlight moment is just concentrating on
Speaker 2: one character.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and even just like thinking about how much how
Speaker 1: many hits were packed into this time and even like
Speaker 1: looking back on it, it feels like decades and decades
Speaker 1: upon of like iconic verses and iconic songs and one
Speaker 1: liners from her. But I mean like a lot of
Speaker 1: these are just like released like week after week, like
Speaker 1: a period of time where she was just like churning
Speaker 1: out some of the most memorable moments in pop and
Speaker 1: rap history. And I mean even just like going back,
Speaker 1: like the first two chart hit she had were February
Speaker 1: twenty ten, which ended up being the same year that
Speaker 1: she would later release Pink Friday and its original incarnation
Speaker 1: was a Knockout with Lil Wayne and Up Out My
Speaker 1: Face remix with Mariah Carey were released like in the
Speaker 1: same couple of weeks. In February twenty head, which is
Speaker 1: just like kind of insane to think, Like looking at that,
Speaker 1: I was just like, I cannot believe that is sort
Speaker 1: of that was the back to back of that time
Speaker 1: of like those two songs, which were sort of just
Speaker 1: like began the snowball effect of like constant Nikki hit.
Speaker 2: Gives an idea of her range, right.
Speaker 1: You're right, yeah, I mean she was someone who was
Speaker 1: a go to for a lot of people still is
Speaker 1: like in terms of no matter what genre, no matter
Speaker 1: like what style you or even i mean even like
Speaker 1: Knockout by a Lil Wayne was not typical Lil Wayne track,
Speaker 1: but even just kind of like she was that person
Speaker 1: that if you needed a really great verse, whether you're
Speaker 1: a pop star or like a rock band or like
Speaker 1: an EDM artist, whatever, Like, she was someone that you
Speaker 1: can go to and she would really mesh very well
Speaker 1: with like whatever salad you were doing and bring something
Speaker 1: completely different to it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, very dangerous as a feature, very dangerous to have
Speaker 2: her on your song just because she's likely to dust you.
Speaker 1: I mean even you know. That was February twenty ten,
Speaker 1: when she had sort of this debut on the charts
Speaker 1: for the very first time by October twenty ten. Was
Speaker 1: that moment where she had this like really kind of
Speaker 1: incredible breakout moment where she was featured on Monster by
Speaker 1: Kanye West and she is on this song with Kanye,
Speaker 1: with jay Z, with Rick Ross with bony Ver, which
Speaker 1: again just sort of very twenty ten moment that that was.
Speaker 1: But I mean for Nicki to be in twenty ten
Speaker 1: on a track with Kanye and jay Z and Rick
Speaker 1: Ross and to completely steal the show on that song
Speaker 1: was like a mind blowing moment. I think for anyone,
Speaker 1: any lover of rap music at that time. To have
Speaker 1: Nicki Minaj be the person who was at that time
Speaker 1: still a very very very new artist, still just kind
Speaker 1: of gain her bearings on the charts, gain her bearings
Speaker 1: in this world was like pretty insane.
Speaker 3: Like that was.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's like one of the most talked about
Speaker 1: verses I think in history totally.
Speaker 2: It's it's a verse that introduced her and for Kanye
Speaker 2: to put her on that song, Like you said, there's
Speaker 2: a murderers rove talent on that song, a very confident
Speaker 2: song in so many ways, but also just having all
Speaker 2: those people peaking on your own record. But as you said,
Speaker 2: the Nicki verse is one of the most famous verses
Speaker 2: of all time, and she really does steal the show
Speaker 2: on a song that is where everybody is shining, everybody
Speaker 2: is doing an astounding job. It's a great track, but
Speaker 2: Nicky's presence, she just looms all over it.
Speaker 1: It's crazy because I feel like I've, you know, much
Speaker 1: like many people who love this song and love Nikki,
Speaker 1: that is a verse that I'm like, I constantly just
Speaker 1: I like, sometimes it's like a skip ahead because I
Speaker 1: really really need to get to the Nicki verse, because
Speaker 1: sometimes you just have like a you just like really
Speaker 1: need to listen to it. And it's always funny, where
Speaker 1: like if I've done that multiple times in a row
Speaker 1: and I go back and like, oh, yeah, like the
Speaker 1: rest of the song is really good. This is like
Speaker 1: actually a really really great song, and then you get
Speaker 1: to nick and you're like like, yes, but this is
Speaker 1: this is the best part of the song.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, it is the best part of the song. You're
Speaker 2: totally right, yeah. But for her to go from this
Speaker 2: to the popness of super bass opposite sides of her,
Speaker 2: and for those to come out roughly the same time,
Speaker 2: the same fall and showing off opposite sides of what
Speaker 2: she was doing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I think that was what surprised so
Speaker 1: many people, especially lovers of her mixtapes and loved, you know,
Speaker 1: already what she was doing prior to gain sign, prior
Speaker 1: to already starting to make moves on the charts. Like,
Speaker 1: I think people were really shocked at how much of
Speaker 1: a pop girl Nicki was, how much of a pop
Speaker 1: girl she wanted to be, and especially her singing and
Speaker 1: kind of that desire to kind of create these like
Speaker 1: bubblegum pop songs mixed with sort of the hardness of
Speaker 1: her verses and kind of find ways to blend that.
Speaker 1: I think people were genuinely very shocked at what Pink
Speaker 1: Friday ended up sounding like, you know, Pink Friday as
Speaker 1: like sort of like the imagery of it, the way
Speaker 1: that she really like leaned into this kind of beginnings
Speaker 1: of that like EDM moment in pop music that we
Speaker 1: would like really really kind of hear even more in
Speaker 1: coming years, but was very much influenced by Lady Gaga
Speaker 1: and sort of like early Katy Perry and Kesha and
Speaker 1: kind of what was going on with all of those artists.
Speaker 1: I think a lot of people were very shocked at
Speaker 1: like the fact that she was able to very seamlessly
Speaker 1: blend what was happening in in pop with how much
Speaker 1: of like an incredible.
Speaker 3: MC she was.
Speaker 2: Yeah, such an era in pop. Yeah, Brittany era.
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is the very This is a very defining
Speaker 1: era for me personally. But this album in particular, and
Speaker 1: all of the songs that kind of came from Pink
Speaker 1: Friday and then her sophomore album, Pink Friday Roman Reloaded
Speaker 1: like are just like some of the best nikky songs
Speaker 1: and best songs of that era.
Speaker 2: Pink Friday was totally different from what anybody was expecting.
Speaker 2: It's funny because that was a very long awaited album
Speaker 2: that was in an album that people had been waiting for.
Speaker 2: She had been building her rep and it's rare for
Speaker 2: an artist making a debut album to already be so
Speaker 2: famous and so itcclaimed, and so people were really waiting
Speaker 2: for Pink Friday and it turned out to be very different.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Do you have a favorite Pink Friday song.
Speaker 2: It's got to be super bas Yeah.
Speaker 3: I obviously love super Bass, but also a Moment for Life.
Speaker 2: I love Moment for.
Speaker 1: Great one with Drake and I think fly is on
Speaker 1: this this Pink Friday I always get like the Pink
Speaker 1: Friday end up becoming such a franchise for us.
Speaker 2: Of course, there's Pink Friday, then.
Speaker 1: There was the Deluxe I mean this is also like
Speaker 1: one of the more messy eras or beginning of a
Speaker 1: very messy era in the industry where it was kind
Speaker 1: of like you have an album, then there's like the
Speaker 1: deluxe version of the album, and like the like bonus version,
Speaker 1: and then it's like kind of like, okay, which one,
Speaker 1: which one are we.
Speaker 3: Doing right now?
Speaker 1: But there was Pink Friday, then Pink Friday kind of
Speaker 1: the deluxe editions with super Bass, which ended up becoming
Speaker 1: one of the biggest hits from that. Then Pink Friday
Speaker 1: Roman reloaded, then of course Pink Friday two. More recently
Speaker 1: so the Pink Friday franchise has has had a lot
Speaker 1: of bangers from it.
Speaker 2: It will never stop, Will Never Stop. And for Pink
Speaker 2: Friday to concentrate so much on her pop side and
Speaker 2: people are really waiting for a more hardcore sort of approach,
Speaker 2: and that was the time that Monster came out and
Speaker 2: for her to be so hardcore on that song and
Speaker 2: then so many melodies. There was some disappointment at the
Speaker 2: time with the album, but it was just because it
Speaker 2: was so different from people I've been expecting.
Speaker 1: And she really ended up leaning even more into it
Speaker 1: for you know, again with Pink Friday Into Pink Friday
Speaker 1: Roman Reloaded, which came out in twenty twelve, like that
Speaker 1: sort of back to back of those two albums were
Speaker 1: leaning so so heavily into this, like edm sound, I
Speaker 1: mean all she like she really kind of like really
Speaker 1: went for it with all those because there was so
Speaker 1: much of that success with songs like super Bass and
Speaker 1: you know, Moment for Life and then later ended up
Speaker 1: being like Pound the Alarm, Starships, like all those songs
Speaker 1: did so well and you know, ended up becoming like
Speaker 1: a really great defining era for Nicki. But she really
Speaker 1: leaned very, very heavily into it, which I admire that
Speaker 1: she did, even though it was that disappointment to kind
Speaker 1: of like the kind of rapheads who were like, this
Speaker 1: is not the Nikki the mixtape, Nikki, this is not
Speaker 1: the one that we like thought was going to end
Speaker 1: up like sort of being the queen of rap.
Speaker 3: But she ended up doing it very seamlessly.
Speaker 2: She built up such a rep with the mixtapes, and
Speaker 2: the mixtapes really created this hardcore sort of legend for her.
Speaker 2: I mean, she really was already a legend when Pink
Speaker 2: Friday came out, and just the Pink Friday was so
Speaker 2: different from the mixtapes, the idea that Lil Wayne was
Speaker 2: involved tangentially just historically in the creation of her reputation
Speaker 2: and her early.
Speaker 1: Rep and I think like a lot of what she
Speaker 1: was really good at was like she had sort of
Speaker 1: the albums that she was releasing at the time were
Speaker 1: so pop leaning and so kind of her really wanting
Speaker 1: to compete with the big pop stars of that era
Speaker 1: again like the Gagas and the Katies of that of
Speaker 1: that time. But you know, then she would churn out
Speaker 1: these incredible featured versus. I mean, this is like such
Speaker 1: a big part of that Nikki lore and that Nikki
Speaker 1: appeal was like she has had such a great history
Speaker 1: of working with so many artists because she would work
Speaker 1: with like so many of these like excellent rappers like
Speaker 1: put out like the hardest verse on the entire record
Speaker 1: and the like, and then be like and here's starships.
Speaker 2: Totally. I love those mixtapes, those early mixtapes. Yeah, and
Speaker 2: she was so raw, often very filthy, Yeah, and so innovative,
Speaker 2: like you said, in an amazing rapper from the get
Speaker 2: go ye and the personality that she built, I mean,
Speaker 2: going back to them, there's still a lot of that,
Speaker 2: you know, that Barbie obsession, that Parajiku obsession.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I mean super Bass of course has its
Speaker 1: own song that ended up being released officially as a
Speaker 1: single in April twenty eleven, and it was a sleeperhead.
Speaker 1: It ended up taking a few months to actually really
Speaker 1: really rise on the charts and ended up hitting number
Speaker 1: three on the Billboard Hot one hundred, was her highest
Speaker 1: ranking song as a lead artist at the time. And
Speaker 1: I mean, I think that one is such a great
Speaker 1: example of that balance of like the verses are incredible,
Speaker 1: Like it's really peak kind of Nikki rapping. She's putting
Speaker 1: on like the British voice, the like Roman kind of
Speaker 1: tease of Roman in the in Superbass, but also has
Speaker 1: like her showing off or singing. She's singing a bit
Speaker 1: with Esther Dean who co wrote the song, and really
Speaker 1: kind of showcasing that really delicate balance that she she
Speaker 1: was toying with at times, very indelicately like in terms
Speaker 1: of how she'd approach it, but you know that really
Speaker 1: great sort of nicky dual dynamic of like hears like
Speaker 1: her singing pop girl putting an incredible hook, like one
Speaker 1: of the catchiest hooks of a time, known for catchy
Speaker 1: hook with her showcasing that she is a remarkable rapper
Speaker 1: with an incredible and very unique flow that would end
Speaker 1: up being imitated for many years. To come still and
Speaker 1: find that balance on the song.
Speaker 2: The balance is amazing. It's really a perfect sort of
Speaker 2: sizzle reel for everything that she could do and everything
Speaker 2: that she wanted to do, very different from what she'd
Speaker 2: done earlier in her rapper career when she was just
Speaker 2: building up her rep on the mixtapes. This one shows
Speaker 2: the different sort of range that she does. I love
Speaker 2: when she uses the thing accent.
Speaker 1: I love it.
Speaker 2: The English accent on that song is one of my
Speaker 2: favorite moments. She's really got a thing for American guys.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know, I believe I believe she's British.
Speaker 1: You know, you can't tell me differently, but yeah, I
Speaker 1: mean she even just like the way the song starts
Speaker 1: out there is that sort of like very sort of dreamy,
Speaker 1: sparkly like bubble gummy, kind of like synth little flare
Speaker 1: that starts it off, and then she kind of comes
Speaker 1: in like much harder than you anticipate on the song,
Speaker 1: Like she kind of comes in, she's like this one's
Speaker 1: for the boys with the booming system like that, a
Speaker 1: little bit more of that edge into it on top
Speaker 1: of this like very delicate, like sweet and.
Speaker 3: Kind of like airy type of little riff that happens there.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the riff, like and it leads to that chorus,
Speaker 2: which is just such an iconic course just in terms
Speaker 2: of the poppiness of it and just the way it
Speaker 2: repeats the sort of the pop side of Pink Friday. Yeah,
Speaker 2: yet with such hardcore rapping in the middle. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I guess like in the years since Pink Print, Nikki
Speaker 1: has had like a pretty like divisive maybe we'll use
Speaker 1: that word, career and sort of public image over the years.
Speaker 1: I'm curious kind of like what that means for the
Speaker 1: feature of Nicki Minaj.
Speaker 2: As you said, you're a barb and for her to
Speaker 2: sort of take the turn that she took in many ways,
Speaker 2: the Pink Print is sort of the peak when she
Speaker 2: was you know, but tormented genius and what she's done
Speaker 2: the last four years has pissed a lot of people off.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean even starting with Queen, like you know
Speaker 1: that release was it just had like a lot of
Speaker 1: like weird setbacks. And I mean, granted, this was like
Speaker 1: a kind of a weird time in music releasing where
Speaker 1: I remember like Beyonce and Lemonade like going on title
Speaker 1: with a kind of botched rollout of that album in
Speaker 1: a really weird way, and it was just like a
Speaker 1: weird time for digital releases where I think a lot
Speaker 1: of industries and streaming services were still getting their bearings
Speaker 1: with how to do that that it was just like
Speaker 1: that rollout was a little bit weird. She's been in
Speaker 1: a lot of feuds with other specifically female rappers that
Speaker 1: I think has left a really bad taste in people's mouths,
Speaker 1: And that's that for me, has kind of been sort
Speaker 1: of a weird thing to sort of developed because she
Speaker 1: is so iconic and I do very much see her
Speaker 1: as the Queen of rap, but it sucks to see
Speaker 1: her kind of be in constant fights with younger with
Speaker 1: younger women who have all said at different times that
Speaker 1: they are a big fan of her you know, of course,
Speaker 1: a lot of the stuff with her husband and her
Speaker 1: brother and being convicted predators really also sucks. Like it's
Speaker 1: just you know, her relation to them and are kind
Speaker 1: of caping for a lot of men like them, and
Speaker 1: then again entering into feuds with young women who have
Speaker 1: looked up to her and oh a lot to her.
Speaker 1: It's made my relationship with her music very complicated over
Speaker 1: the years. But yeah, I don't know, I think it's
Speaker 1: you know, hasn't slowed down. A lot of a really
Speaker 1: big fandom, a lot of you know, her tour's been
Speaker 1: selling out, She's had a really really massive run with
Speaker 1: her Pink Friday to tour and kind of has announced
Speaker 1: even more dates and all that. So of course it's
Speaker 1: still Nicki Minaogency's still you know, one of the best
Speaker 1: selling artists of all time. But it is sort of
Speaker 1: a confusing place to be actually, because it's like kind
Speaker 1: of stuff that people usually do when they're in their
Speaker 1: like seventies, you know, like artists they are kind of
Speaker 1: like really do not care anymore, and they're kind of like, well, like,
Speaker 1: you know, this new music sucks and led to a
Speaker 1: lot of like kind of weird relationships for her in
Speaker 1: the industry and kind of really confusing, almost kind of
Speaker 1: seemingly like now like isolated place in the music industry
Speaker 1: that Nikki is where that wasn't the case for a really.
Speaker 2: Long time, well really in a world of her own, yeah,
Speaker 2: I mean musically and in every other way.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So I'm wondering what that will mean for the future,
Speaker 1: because I mean I think a lot about the time
Speaker 1: that she sort of came up as an artist, I mean,
Speaker 1: this was every genre music sucks for women, but rap
Speaker 1: has especially been really really hard for a lot of
Speaker 1: women to break through in and to kind of have
Speaker 1: a lot of success. And even with super Bass that
Speaker 1: was like the highest charting single for a female rapper
Speaker 1: since work It at that time, Wow, and Pink Friday
Speaker 1: even becoming like the second and most successful album by
Speaker 1: a female rapper since Miseducation. Like, you know, there was
Speaker 1: a lot of barriers for every woman in rap to
Speaker 1: kind of break through in, and so you know, it's
Speaker 1: been really confusing to kind of see that sort of
Speaker 1: her relationships with other women in the genre sort of
Speaker 1: as it developed over the course of the last decade.
Speaker 3: But musically, like she's still kind of the queen of
Speaker 3: Wrapped Me.
Speaker 1: And after the break we have Manka per Conte to
Speaker 1: talk about super Bass. We are joined by Rolling Stone
Speaker 1: staff writer makaper Conte. Mochapr. Thank you so much for
Speaker 1: joining us today.
Speaker 4: Thank thanks guys again.
Speaker 3: I'm around two, super happy.
Speaker 2: To be this time in person.
Speaker 4: I know the stars aligned.
Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you. Well.
Speaker 1: I wanted to hear about sort of the first time
Speaker 1: you encounter I'm sure it was with the same way
Speaker 1: that everyone else encountered Nicki Minaj, but sort of your
Speaker 1: kind of experience kind of watching those like early years
Speaker 1: of her really blowing up leading up to super Bass.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, my first real, real memory of Nicki
Speaker 4: Minaj is riding the bus with who is now my
Speaker 4: best friend and has been my best friend for eighteen years,
Speaker 4: and we would blast eighty big Piggy and I get
Speaker 4: crazy and we would wrap it and because like on
Speaker 4: the bus, you would just kind of trade music. I
Speaker 4: didn't even imagine what we were listening to music on iPods,
Speaker 4: like because I wouldn't have had a physical mixtape, so
Speaker 4: probably on like our iPods. She was just so weird,
Speaker 4: like the whole spiel. I win you lose on ity
Speaker 4: bity piggy like ben that from top to bottom. And
Speaker 4: I think it was just like it was really exciting
Speaker 4: and of course, like I didn't grow up in an
Speaker 4: era where there were women rappers that were popular at all,
Speaker 4: and so to really watch her from the ground up
Speaker 4: build and like really change the course of like music
Speaker 4: has been really cool.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean there was something kind of surreal happening
Speaker 1: in those years where it was like, especially for young
Speaker 1: women who were listening to her, like this was just
Speaker 1: like someone who was like you knew all the lyrics,
Speaker 1: you were learning it, but also like boys listened to
Speaker 1: her too, like there was like a lot with that,
Speaker 1: you know. Yeah, it was just like this like kind
Speaker 1: of big phenomenon happening in real time as she was
Speaker 1: blowing up as it was happening.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 4: And I think one of the things too, when I
Speaker 4: think I haven't actually thought about like men's relationship with
Speaker 4: Nicki Minas, it's a really interesting point because I was
Speaker 4: listening to I Get Crazy on the way here and
Speaker 4: hearing Wayne and how much synergy they had in her
Speaker 4: being able to come up under him at the time,
Speaker 4: where like Wayne was of course like the hottest he
Speaker 4: had ever been around that time. I wonder like how
Speaker 4: much that had to do with like how universal like
Speaker 4: she became, because eventually she was on every song. She
Speaker 4: was like the tea pain of music.
Speaker 3: Eventually.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean.
Speaker 1: Even just like that psychotomy too, of like her as
Speaker 1: a rapper and her as someone who could be like
Speaker 1: a really great pop star, which is what super Bass
Speaker 1: sort of helped solidify in so many ways. I mean,
Speaker 1: tell me about kind of watching that dichotomy that she
Speaker 1: was really playing with at that time and able to
Speaker 1: like really make such an important part of who she
Speaker 1: was as a as a star. Yeah.
Speaker 4: I remember the reactions around super Bass being really mixed,
Speaker 4: right because it's like, this is this hardcore rapper, This
Speaker 4: is this girl from New York that Wayne just like
Speaker 4: plucked right out of like her neighborhood. Like what is
Speaker 4: she doing in this pink wig and this like little
Speaker 4: dance and little shorts and like making such poppy music.
Speaker 4: But it's like you can see such a through line
Speaker 4: from that to like Megan and Sweetest Pie and Cardi
Speaker 4: and Maroon five or like every other rapper that Maroon
Speaker 4: five is like put on a song like she really
Speaker 4: opened this really interesting door for like rap and particularly
Speaker 4: rap by like women then to be pop music, yeah,
Speaker 4: and to like play with like more traditional like Max
Speaker 4: Martini like pop sounds.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: And there was like a coexisting happening two of those
Speaker 1: two sides of her, where like she was someone who
Speaker 1: was very much letting fy yourself as like one of
Speaker 1: the greatest rappers of all time and someone who can
Speaker 1: like really you know, just like have like this incredible flow,
Speaker 1: but also could make like one of the catchiest top
Speaker 1: forty songs that you ever hear.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's really catchy. I feel like I can't quite
Speaker 4: remember what my reaction was to super Rased. I don't
Speaker 4: think that I loved it. I think I grew to
Speaker 4: like it a lot more, and the way that like
Speaker 4: you grow to like like party in the USA, it's
Speaker 4: just like one of those songs that like we all
Speaker 4: know and like can like bring us joy and we
Speaker 4: kind of commune around. I think I probably thought it
Speaker 4: was kind of silly when it came out, but even
Speaker 4: when I listen to it now, is like she's really
Speaker 4: really rapping on it, and it's it's fun just because
Speaker 4: it's a pop song. She didn't like lose her edge,
Speaker 4: and she seems to have always wanted to be a singer.
Speaker 4: Like I was even listening to Pink Friday too. She
Speaker 4: does so much singing on that it seems to be
Speaker 4: like really important to her, So it seems like she
Speaker 4: always wanted to blend those two things.
Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 2: I'm curious what you thought of Pink Friday in general
Speaker 2: when it came out, because it was really disconcertingly pop.
Speaker 2: The whole album was so pop, it was so different
Speaker 2: from what people have been expecting and hoping for.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I am one of those people that give Pink
Speaker 4: Friday it's flowers because I know how important Nikki is
Speaker 4: to hip hop culture and I know that and that
Speaker 4: being her like mainstream breakthrough is really important. I don't
Speaker 4: think it is that great of an album. I think
Speaker 4: that Nikki does not actually make very good whole albums.
Speaker 4: There is this phenomenon in rap across men and women
Speaker 4: where some people can make incredible songs, but like an
Speaker 4: album requires like movement and storytelling, in curation and like
Speaker 4: making really hard choices, and I feel like it's mostly
Speaker 4: in the beat selection on Pink Friday that I'm just like,
Speaker 4: something about it is a little too cheesy. It's like
Speaker 4: a little too corny. But again, like the Nikki that
Speaker 4: I'm like most drawn to is like the I get crazy,
Speaker 4: itty bitty piggy like even like FTCU on Pink Friday,
Speaker 4: everybody would low uzzy, like I like when there is
Speaker 4: a little more hardness to it or just like a
Speaker 4: little less corn I don't know really how to explain,
Speaker 4: and that might just be a personal difference, but I've
Speaker 4: really really tried with Nikki albums, and I can always
Speaker 4: find more than a handful of really great songs, but
Speaker 4: the whole units, to me are never what I feel
Speaker 4: like she could be capable of. Yeah, even yeah, I
Speaker 4: don't have like a Nikki album that I like, love to.
Speaker 4: My favorite Nicki album so far as Pink Friday too,
Speaker 4: yea and even five songs.
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah.
Speaker 4: Like when people were like, yeah, I don't know about this,
Speaker 4: I was like, this is my favorite thing. But I
Speaker 4: think it's like because she felt so with the times,
Speaker 4: and I'm like, maybe the times that Pink Friday was
Speaker 4: with was whatever was happening in pop music, which maybe
Speaker 4: I wasn't that attuned to at that time.
Speaker 1: It was very like kind of connected to that sort
Speaker 1: of like Kesha type of like like early Gaga, early
Speaker 1: Katy Perry kind.
Speaker 3: Of sound that was happening.
Speaker 1: I'm curious. I mean, I guess the contrast like some
Speaker 1: of your favorite Nikki songs or verses, like I feel
Speaker 1: like she's someone who, you know, I have favorite songs verse,
Speaker 1: but her verses, especially on other people, you know, she's
Speaker 1: a guest first or anything like remixes things like that
Speaker 1: are just so striking. And of course the Monster verse
Speaker 1: is like one of the most famous guest versus maybe
Speaker 1: of all time, you know, and she has like and
Speaker 1: that's one of like I don't even know how like
Speaker 1: a hundred, like one of a hundred, like incredible, you know,
Speaker 1: just really excellent kind of feature She's had, some curious
Speaker 1: kind of what are some of your your favorite Nikki
Speaker 1: I guess you could just call them moments moments.
Speaker 4: I love her on My Beautiful, Dark Twisted Fantasy. The
Speaker 4: intro like fairy tale intro. Her voice, her character was
Speaker 4: just so perfect for that and the like lush like
Speaker 4: production under it. It's one of the things that makes
Speaker 4: that album I think so elevated, just like all the
Speaker 4: thought put into it and like finding Nikki to like
Speaker 4: get into that rhythm for it, and that's not even
Speaker 4: like her really really rapping, you know, like she's just
Speaker 4: like kind of playing around there. It's funny. I'm trying
Speaker 4: to think about the older things, but it's like I'm
Speaker 4: thinking about her on a Poundtown remix with Sexy Red,
Speaker 4: I think, yeah, I think that. And that's the thing,
Speaker 4: like when I feel like Niki is keeping up with
Speaker 4: the times, particularly in like rap, but still keeping her
Speaker 4: own unique bend to it is when I like, really
Speaker 4: really like her.
Speaker 2: So yeah, Big Sean Ass remix was like that was Yeah.
Speaker 2: I think of that as like one of the moments
Speaker 2: where she was trying to fit in with the song.
Speaker 2: She wasn't trying to like totally watch the song, but like, yeah,
Speaker 2: that that's a really good That might be my favorite
Speaker 2: Nikki verse of all.
Speaker 4: That's a really really good one.
Speaker 3: I'm a big fan of for Trey Songs collaboration.
Speaker 4: I love that good one.
Speaker 2: It could have been made for you.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I love her verse on Bottoms Up.
Speaker 3: I love her verse.
Speaker 1: I'm little freak by sure, especially that everybody loves Raymond line,
Speaker 1: something that I would just like yeah constantly.
Speaker 4: That's a good one.
Speaker 3: That's a good one.
Speaker 2: That is a great one. That's an alzheimer.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I didn't used to, but now that I listened
Speaker 4: to it, I like her verse on Motorsport a lot ye, Like,
Speaker 4: I think that was a very tense moment. You know,
Speaker 4: there was already tensions kind of brewing between she and
Speaker 4: Cardi before, like everything really really blew up. They're trying
Speaker 4: to collaborate. Cardi has an outstanding verse. I love her
Speaker 4: calling herself the trap Selena. But now I'm thinking about
Speaker 4: how Nikki like kind of like creeps on it, Like
Speaker 4: how like kind of intimidating she is on it. Like
Speaker 4: I really like her attitude in that verse a lot
Speaker 4: more now, And I think that's that's that's like a
Speaker 4: pretty iconic moment for her too, I think, Yeah.
Speaker 1: I mean, I think the thing with Nikki and something
Speaker 1: he brought up a couple of times is like the
Speaker 1: characters and sort of that mix of like she is
Speaker 1: very very funny, and she's very quick with her humor,
Speaker 1: and she also is like she's she's a theater kid,
Speaker 1: like very good at like embodying Roman and embodying like
Speaker 1: all these like different kind of personas in the songs.
Speaker 1: I mean, tell me about how that kind of set
Speaker 1: Nikki apart and also like kind of evolved over the
Speaker 1: course of her career.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, I think it's one of those things,
Speaker 4: you know, like earlier when I was like she was
Speaker 4: so weird, it was like one of the things that
Speaker 4: made her weird, but like also then made her really interesting.
Speaker 4: The Harajuku Barbie character was like really interesting to me,
Speaker 4: her calling herself that, the like Monica Lewinsky references and
Speaker 4: the Nikki Lewinsky character, and like that being about her
Speaker 4: relationship to low Wayne. You know, like everything is means now,
Speaker 4: and I think artists are really encouraged, Like you can
Speaker 4: see like artists being encouraged like Victoria Mane does as
Speaker 4: well to like take memes and make them a part
Speaker 4: of their own body of work. And it's kind of
Speaker 4: like she kind of did that with like things that
Speaker 4: weren't like as well known, but you know, like when
Speaker 4: Stefani previously did like the whole Harajuku thing, So it's
Speaker 4: kind of pulling that in. There's a political reference there,
Speaker 4: so I feel like it, maybe in a weird way,
Speaker 4: is kind of like a precursor to that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I feel like right now, like the the Young
Speaker 1: Money Crew, I mean, especially Nicki and Drake are in
Speaker 1: such like a weird kind of moment I kind of
Speaker 1: make or break I guess, kind of legacy moment, which
Speaker 1: is kind of surreal to even think about, you know,
Speaker 1: the like going just you know, fourteen fifteen years ago
Speaker 1: and just kind of that sort of imperial phase that
Speaker 1: lasted I think longer than I think anyone anticipated that
Speaker 1: it would.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: Nicki, of course, is still she has a massive tour.
Speaker 1: I mean, she still has like the Barbs forever, but
Speaker 1: it has been sort of like an interesting few years,
Speaker 1: I guess in sort of her career and like kind
Speaker 1: of her interaction with a lot of younger artists specifically,
Speaker 1: I mean, tell me kind of where that stands for
Speaker 1: you now and sort of how you view Nicki in
Speaker 1: the present day, especially being a fan of Pink for
Speaker 1: you too, and kind of her music still kind of
Speaker 1: being having like really great moments and things like that,
Speaker 1: Like where do you sort of stand in sort of
Speaker 1: your Barb Barb fandom.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm really disappointed, Yeah, And I try to not
Speaker 4: let that take away from the things that she's accomplished.
Speaker 4: In my mind, like I'd never want to like diminish
Speaker 4: her talent in my mind or her impact, but I
Speaker 4: do think that, you know, it's like dark Knight, live
Speaker 4: long enough to see yourself become the villain type thing,
Speaker 4: you know, or die of be a hero, and maybe
Speaker 4: those fourteen years were too long, but I think that's
Speaker 4: kind of what we're seeing happen. And it's funny because
Speaker 4: right like one of the first I think, like og
Speaker 4: Nikki beefs was with Kim and it seemed like there
Speaker 4: was this air that like this older woman was not
Speaker 4: embracing Nicki, or Nikki felt that she wasn't embraced, or
Speaker 4: there was just this like dissonance between generations that she's
Speaker 4: like recreating with so many young women in RAP. And
Speaker 4: it's like everybody who comes into the game cites her
Speaker 4: as an influence, like even after they fall out Lotto
Speaker 4: like other folks I spice, even like you know, she
Speaker 4: says that they're cool, but like you know, techt leaked
Speaker 4: where she was having a hard time processing that relationship,
Speaker 4: like no one has ever took away I think from
Speaker 4: what she's accomplished. But yeah, it is really disappointing to see.
Speaker 4: And then I mean, I think some of like the
Speaker 4: personal choices too in her like personal life have been
Speaker 4: disappointing to see.
Speaker 3: I read this really.
Speaker 4: Interesting thing essay in the New York Times music magazine
Speaker 4: many years ago. The writer was predicting that like these
Speaker 4: this generation of stars would have to fall. But this
Speaker 4: is like maybe like twenty like seventeen that I read
Speaker 4: this something like that. I was in grad school, maybe
Speaker 4: twenty eighteen, and I was like, this person was basically arguing,
Speaker 4: like Beyonce's not and Drake and Kanye and Nikki, these
Speaker 4: people can't all be who they are forever. And I
Speaker 4: was like, well, who's gonna take their place?
Speaker 2: And that.
Speaker 4: Proved true for many years after. But I think that
Speaker 4: person was right, and we're starting to see because like
Speaker 4: there's so much music, there's so much access, there's so
Speaker 4: many different types of women in rap, there's so many
Speaker 4: different attitudes and styles and regions that are reflected in
Speaker 4: particularly women's rap, that like, we don't have to hold
Speaker 4: on to someone, particularly if they're like not nice.
Speaker 3: Yeah you know, yeah, I mean.
Speaker 1: Something that came up for me and wrap within the
Speaker 1: Missy episode and earlier in this episode is just you know,
Speaker 1: how many limited spaces were allowed for women in rap
Speaker 1: music and kind of this like Nikki kind of even
Speaker 1: having to come up in a time where it was
Speaker 1: like sort of just like you have to kind of
Speaker 1: like claw for that space then to be like seen
Speaker 1: as equivalent to you know, the Kanys and jay Z's
Speaker 1: at the moment. You know, it's like, I guess like
Speaker 1: part of me like feels for that in a way,
Speaker 1: but also I feel like I stand.
Speaker 3: Very much at the same place where you are, where
Speaker 3: it's like, you know.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think because you can understand the origins of
Speaker 4: something or you can empathize what the feeling, doesn't necessarily
Speaker 4: mean that you think it's right. Yeah, I think that's
Speaker 4: where it is, right. You know, it's like, yes, you
Speaker 4: did have to claw and climb your way to the top,
Speaker 4: but it's not like that, and none of I think
Speaker 4: the most pop and rap girls want to be that way.
Speaker 4: Lotto and Flow, Milly and Meg are together all the time.
Speaker 4: You know, sometimes it seems like some relationships here and
Speaker 4: there have like dissipated, but it's not always breaking out
Speaker 4: into these like catastrophic fights or like beefs all the time.
Speaker 4: I think that there is an aura in music, particularly
Speaker 4: in women in rap of like we have no reason
Speaker 4: to tear each other down.
Speaker 1: Well, thank you so much for so much, Thanks so
Speaker 1: much for listening to Rolling Stone's five hundred Greatest Songs.
Speaker 1: This podcast is brought to you by Rolling Stone and iHeartMedia.
Speaker 1: Written hosted by Me, Britney Spanos and Rob Sheffield. Executive
Speaker 1: produced by Gus Winner, Jason Vine, Alex Dale and Christian Horde,
Speaker 1: and produced by Jesse Cannon, with music supervision by Eric
Speaker 1: Zeiler