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Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet, as a production

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Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative. I'm Bridget Todd and this

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Speaker 1: is There Are No Girls on the Internet. Welcome to

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Speaker 1: There No Girls on the Internet, where we explore the

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Speaker 1: intersection of technology, social media, the Internet, and identity. And

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Speaker 1: this is another installment of our weekly news Roundup where

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Speaker 1: we're rounding out some of the stories that happened online

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Speaker 1: that you might have missed this week. Mike, thank you

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Speaker 1: for being here.

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Speaker 2: Bridget, thanks for having me. Always a pleasure to be here.

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Speaker 1: I should say I am still in Maza Laan, Mexico,

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Speaker 1: where I traveled to see the eclipse. When I recorded

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Speaker 1: the News round Up with Joey the previous week, I

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Speaker 1: had not yet seen the eclipse. Now I have seen

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Speaker 1: the eclipse, I feel that everything has changed. It's like

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Speaker 1: jenniber corn Kid where he says when I tried corn

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Speaker 1: with butter, everything changed. When I saw the eclipse, in totality,

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Speaker 1: everything changed.

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Speaker 2: This is like you're putting butter on corn. Amazing. So

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Speaker 2: where where were you when you saw it?

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Speaker 1: I was out on the beach. You know. I had

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Speaker 1: these like very complicated plans to take a ferry to

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Speaker 1: a small island and then hike up a little area

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Speaker 1: and then I was like, let's just go to the beach,

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Speaker 1: and so the whole it felt like the whole city

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Speaker 1: of Mazatlan came out to the beach to see it.

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Speaker 1: I have never experienced totality, and for a really long time,

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Speaker 1: everybody in my life has been telling me like, oh,

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Speaker 1: totality is amazing, like it's going to change your life,

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Speaker 1: like blah blah blah. Iyes was like, oh, well, I've

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Speaker 1: seen it from my office in eclipse classes from like

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Speaker 1: downtown Washington, DC. Is that not the same thing? And

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Speaker 1: people are like no, And I always felt a little

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Speaker 1: bit raw about it, if I'm being honest. My I

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Speaker 1: did not know this, but my father is an eclipse chaser,

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Speaker 1: and I only learned that when I tried to say

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Speaker 1: that I experienced an eclipse in a partial eclipse in DC,

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Speaker 1: and he was like, no, you haven't. If you haven't

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Speaker 1: been in totality, you haven't experienced shit.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, totality really But he was right, He's right. I

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Speaker 2: mean he didn't have to say so rudely, but totality

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Speaker 2: really is a whole different thing.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 2: Somebody described being in ninety nine percent eclipse as like

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Speaker 2: driving ninety nine percent of the way to Disney World,

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Speaker 2: And I feel that's like a good description, right, Like

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Speaker 2: unless you actually get all the way there, you're not

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Speaker 2: experiencing it. Yeah, the eclipse was beautiful. It was sublime.

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Speaker 2: Can't wait for the next one.

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Speaker 1: Did you see this thing where there was like eclipse backlash.

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Speaker 1: I'm not just talking about all the different wacky conspiracy

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Speaker 1: theories that people said the eclipse was going to trigger,

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Speaker 1: which obviously that's bunk. I mean reasonable people who were like,

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Speaker 1: stop being excited about the eclipse, like you don't have

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Speaker 1: you I'm not going to be pressured into caring about

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Speaker 1: this eclipse. Did you see any of that?

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Speaker 2: I did, and I found it super baffling and sort

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Speaker 2: of like disappointing about society. Yeah, it was like a

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Speaker 2: whole category of content of people expressing anti eclipse sentiment

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Speaker 2: like don't be excited about it, it's not that great.

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Speaker 2: Who cares? And then even after the eclipse, I've seen

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Speaker 2: some content that was like framed that way with like

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Speaker 2: clickbaity headlines about what was the headline that I saw

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Speaker 2: this morning? Just this morning, somebody was like complaining about

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Speaker 2: the eclipse because and then he got into the article

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Speaker 2: and they were like it was so beautiful that now

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Speaker 2: I don't know what to do with myself. But the

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Speaker 2: headline was like clickbaity and anti eclipse, and so it's

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Speaker 2: just I don't know, it's like, can't we have anything

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Speaker 2: nice where we just feel good about something?

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Speaker 1: Well? That's my thing is that post eclipse, I'm actually

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Speaker 1: feeling a lot of, for lack of a better phrase,

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Speaker 1: childlike wonder. Like I think like being around all these

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Speaker 1: people who just wanted to mar at this this celestial

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Speaker 1: magic thing that happened in the sky, and I don't know,

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Speaker 1: it's just like it felt like a whole day where

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Speaker 1: people got to be excited about something that's pure and good,

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Speaker 1: and just like I don't know reading about how the

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Speaker 1: only reason why we get eclipses this is because like,

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Speaker 1: are the sun and the moon happen to be the

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Speaker 1: same size? Is that right?

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Speaker 3: Uh?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it is kind of like I want

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Speaker 2: to say, magical magic isn't the word, but uh yeah,

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Speaker 2: like the the sizes are it seems like quite quite

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Speaker 2: a coincidence that the sizes are so aligned the way

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Speaker 2: that they are considering how far apart these objects are.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and I just think that's nice that it's this

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Speaker 1: like coincidental thing that we as humans just get to experience,

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Speaker 1: and how lucky for us. And yeah, we should have

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Speaker 1: more things that are just purely about Marvel for Marvel's sake,

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Speaker 1: and look up at the sky and wonder. We don't

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Speaker 1: get a lot of opportunities for childlike wonder collectively. So

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Speaker 1: I'm still feeling the warm fuzzies from it, I guess.

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Speaker 1: But I should also say that because I'm in Mexico still,

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Speaker 1: I am still really close to a beach where there

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Speaker 1: are roaming bands, which I learned actually they are called

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Speaker 1: bonda bands. And Mazatlan, Mexico is the place where that

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Speaker 1: tradition of like playing music on the beach and like

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Speaker 1: wandering around. This is the hometown of that tradition. So

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Speaker 1: go Mazatlan, Mexico. But you might hear a little bit

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Speaker 1: of jubilation in the background, is what I'm saying.

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Speaker 2: Oh, that's pretty cool. I like to like the idea

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Speaker 2: of roving bands of musicians traveling up and down the beach,

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Speaker 2: going back to that like childlike wonder at the beauty

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Speaker 2: of nature in the universe. I think that's sort of

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Speaker 2: what that anti eclipse article I read this morning was

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Speaker 2: like pushing back against for complaining about because you know,

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Speaker 2: they had experienced it during the brief, sublimely beautiful moment

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Speaker 2: and then it passed, and the author almost sounded like

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Speaker 2: mad that now they had to go back to their normal,

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Speaker 2: humdrum life and they struggled to remember what it had

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Speaker 2: been like during totality. And you know, I just think

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Speaker 2: anger at the eclipse is one path a person could

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Speaker 2: take to deal with those feelings. Another path could be

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Speaker 2: to try to seek out opportunities to marvel at the

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Speaker 2: world more regularly. Right, Like, our lives don't have to

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Speaker 2: be soul crushing grinds. We can look up and wonder

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Speaker 2: every now and again.

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Speaker 1: Sounds like somebody's in the pocket of Big Eclipse.

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Speaker 2: Mike, Yeah, I'll admit it. I'm on the dole for

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Speaker 2: Big Eclipse.

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Speaker 1: Well, speaking of soul crushing, not everything is childlike wonder.

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Speaker 1: And this is something that I've been experiencing, a childlike

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Speaker 1: sense of rage and infuriation. I guess I might.

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Speaker 2: Say, Yeah, I guess children really do like whatever they're feeling.

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Speaker 2: They just really feel it intensely. Yeah, So what do

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Speaker 2: you feel a childlike rage about? Bridge? So?

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Speaker 1: Francesca Amaouda Rivers is an actor who was cast as

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Speaker 1: Juliet in an upcoming London West End production of Romeo

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Speaker 1: and Juliet alongside Tom Holland, who you might know from

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Speaker 1: those Spider Man movies or datings, and Daia alongside him

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Speaker 1: as Romeo. So the entire production is pretty racially diverse.

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Speaker 1: Because Francesca is a dark skinned black woman, that means

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Speaker 1: that her being cast as Juliet has led to this

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Speaker 1: torrent of racist, sexist online abuse, people saying she's too

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Speaker 1: ugly and too black to be a beautiful Juliet figure

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Speaker 1: and that her casting is quote woke, and that she

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Speaker 1: did not deserve the role. So the Jamie Lloyd Company,

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Speaker 1: which is the company behind the production, put out a

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Speaker 1: statement saying, following the announce of our Romeo and Juliette cast,

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Speaker 1: there has been a barrage of deplorable racial abuse online

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Speaker 1: directed toward a member of our company. This must stop.

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Speaker 1: We are working with a remarkable group of artists. We

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Speaker 1: insist they are free to create work without facing online harassment.

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Speaker 1: Jamie Lloyd, the director of The company said that it

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Speaker 1: would continue to support and protect everyone at our company

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Speaker 1: at all costs. Any abuse will not be tolerated and

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Speaker 1: will be reported. Bullying and harassment have no place online,

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Speaker 1: in our industry or in our wider communities. I will

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Speaker 1: say this statement is good. Like something that I say

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Speaker 1: again and again on this show, is that when somebody

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Speaker 1: is being targeted in this way, you need to show

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Speaker 1: clear and ambiguous support. You need to have a plan

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Speaker 1: in place for what you will do, and you need

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Speaker 1: to make sure that there is no confusion about where

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Speaker 1: you stand and how you are supporting the person targeted.

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Speaker 1: So the fact that the Jamie Lloyd Company didn't ignore

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Speaker 1: it spoke to what was happening right away in very

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Speaker 1: clear terms. This is how I think that organizations and

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Speaker 1: industries should be reacting when somebody somebody is targeted in

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Speaker 1: this way. Luckily, if there is one thing that black

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Speaker 1: women are going to do, it is support each other.

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Speaker 1: More than eight hundred predominantly black women and non binary

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Speaker 1: actors signed on to an open letter in solidarity with Francesca.

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Speaker 1: The letter was organized by and Nola Holmes, actor Susan Wacoma,

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Speaker 1: and writer Somalia Nanie seton, and the letter really has

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Speaker 1: two kind of important bits, one just generally supporting Francesca,

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Speaker 1: and two pointing out that this kind of thing, these

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Speaker 1: kind of racist attacks and harassment, happened to black performers

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Speaker 1: all the time. The letter reads, when news of Francesca's

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Speaker 1: casting and Jamie Lloyd's production of Romeo and Juliet was announced,

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Speaker 1: so many people celebrated and welcomed this news. Many of

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Speaker 1: us took to social media to shower our babysits with

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Speaker 1: love and congratulations. A huge deal for someone so young

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Speaker 1: in their career, a huge rising talent. But then what

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Speaker 1: followed was a too familiar horror that many of us

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Speaker 1: visible black, dark skinned performers have experienced. The racist and

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Speaker 1: misogynistic abuse directed at such a sweet soul has been

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Speaker 1: too much to bear. For a casting announcement of a

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Speaker 1: play to ignite such twisted, ugly abuse is truly embarrassing

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Speaker 1: for those so empty and barren in their own lives

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Speaker 1: that they must meddle in hateful abuse. Also, that is

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Speaker 1: a that is a read like somebody had time when

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Speaker 1: they wrote this letter, so they really drill in on

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Speaker 1: one of my sticking points that in a lot of

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Speaker 1: cases when this kind of thing happens, the people in

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Speaker 1: charge just kind of do nothing. They don't put out

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Speaker 1: a statement. They maybe hope it'll like blow over. Maybe

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Speaker 1: they're privately supporting the person targeted, but like they're not

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Speaker 1: communicating that to the public, and that is that doesn't work.

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Speaker 1: The letter reads. Too many times theater companies, broadcasters, producers,

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Speaker 1: and streamers have failed to offer any help or support

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Speaker 1: when they're black artists face racist or misogynistic abuse. Reporting

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Speaker 1: is too often left on the shoulders of the abused,

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Speaker 1: who are then expected to promote said show, which I

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Speaker 1: think is also like a really good point, Like it

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Speaker 1: is a racism and sexism issue, to be sure, like

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Speaker 1: an identity issue, but it's also just like a work

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Speaker 1: place equity issue, right, Like she is meant to promote

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Speaker 1: this project on social media that she is a part of,

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Speaker 1: which will only lead to more of the abuse that

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Speaker 1: she is already shouldering. And so it's not an equitable

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Speaker 1: situation if like, yeah, you're going to be in this play,

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Speaker 1: you need to promote this play on social media, but

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Speaker 1: in order to do that, you just have to individually

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Speaker 1: shoulder this kind of unacceptable racist and sexist harassment that

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Speaker 1: other people in your production are not having to deal with.

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Speaker 1: It's not equitable.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and not just shoulder that. You know, it's not

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Speaker 2: just abuse, but it's coordinated abuse, right, like people across

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Speaker 2: the internet coordinating to target one particular performer, and like,

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Speaker 2: of course that's going to be like too much for

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Speaker 2: one person to take on. Of course, people you know,

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Speaker 2: facing that sort of vast network of international bigots need

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Speaker 2: some institutional support to help hold them up.

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Speaker 1: Yes, letter really speaks to that in a beautiful way.

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Speaker 1: They write, we want to send a clear message to

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Speaker 1: Francesca and all black women performers who face this kind

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Speaker 1: of abuse. We see you, We see the art you

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Speaker 1: managed to produce with not only the pressures that your

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Speaker 1: white colleagues face, but with the added traumatic hurdle of

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Speaker 1: massage noire. We are so excited to watch you shine.

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Speaker 1: So we should talk about what's going on here. One

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Speaker 1: is that I've seen a lot of people say like, oh, well,

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Speaker 1: I'm not I don't have a problem with her that

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Speaker 1: she's black. I have a problem with her is that

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Speaker 1: she's not beautiful. Juliette is meant to be beautiful. She's

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Speaker 1: meant to be beautiful enough to have, you know, Romeo

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Speaker 1: go against his family to be with her. I'm not

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Speaker 1: saying it's a problem because she's a black she's a

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Speaker 1: black woman. I'm saying it's a problem because she's not beautiful.

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Speaker 1: So I think there's a really specific racially coded thing

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Speaker 1: happening here that I can tell you quite a bit about.

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Speaker 1: As a black woman with dark skin, you know, people

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Speaker 1: saying that, oh, well, it's that she's not attractive and

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Speaker 1: Juliette should be attractive, saying that it's not a race issue,

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Speaker 1: it's an attractiveness issue. Is can be such a deeply coded,

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Speaker 1: like racially coded claim, especially when you're talking about a

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Speaker 1: darker skinned black woman with like thick hair, and you know,

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Speaker 1: like I just have heard that my whole life, and

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Speaker 1: it's like, oh, well, it's not a race thing. It's

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Speaker 1: just that you're not pretty because you're a black woman.

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Speaker 1: It's like, well, that does sound look like a race

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Speaker 1: thing to me?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And I mean there are a few things more

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Speaker 2: subjective than beauty.

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Speaker 1: Yes, And it's like the fact that these people could say, like, oh,

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Speaker 1: I'm just talking about beauty standards, the fact that they

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Speaker 1: could try to conveniently divorce all of that from race,

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Speaker 1: from the fact that we live in a white supremacist society,

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Speaker 1: you know, eurocentric beauty standards like all of that. It's like,

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Speaker 1: I don't know, it's like playing in my face, Like

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Speaker 1: it's very clear what's going on, but they don't want

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Speaker 1: it to say what's going on, so they're like, oh, no, no, no,

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Speaker 1: it's not about race. I just don't believe that anybody

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Speaker 1: would ever find a black woman attractive.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And I truly wonder how many of them are,

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Speaker 2: you know, talking saying it's about beauty as an tensional

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Speaker 2: way to like hide the racism that they know that

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Speaker 2: they have within them, versus like how many are just

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Speaker 2: so un self critical and unreflective that they don't see

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Speaker 2: what's going on in their own head. Like that almost

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Speaker 2: is like sadder. I think for somebody to live such

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Speaker 2: an uncritical life that they would not realize that, right,

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Speaker 2: I don't know. Maybe that's just a dumb point.

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Speaker 1: No, I don't think it's a dumb point. So I

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Speaker 1: spent a lot of time digging into what people who

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Speaker 1: are behind this harassment are saying, and I think that

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Speaker 1: you're right. It's clear to me that these are not

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Speaker 1: people who are thinking very deeply about the things that

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Speaker 1: they're saying, the things that they are claiming to feel

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Speaker 1: about this person, and why they're making such a big

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Speaker 1: deal of it. I don't think that they're really analyzing

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Speaker 1: that too deeply. And so I bet these people do

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Speaker 1: think it's not about race, and that like spending a

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Speaker 1: lot of inn and time to talk about whether or

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Speaker 1: not they think this black woman Juliette is pretty enough

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Speaker 1: for a production that they probably would never see, uh,

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Speaker 1: is normal behavior. And I don't think that they're looking

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Speaker 1: at their behavior in any kind of like critical lens.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, because you bring up another good point. Why do

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Speaker 2: they care? Right? Like how many of these people are

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Speaker 2: going to travel to London's West End to take in

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Speaker 2: this Shakespeare production?

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Speaker 1: Okay, So I have been racking my brain trying to

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Speaker 1: figure this out and figure out like what's going on

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Speaker 1: with this? And I think something really particular is happening here.

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Speaker 1: So anybody listening who is into theater, particularly Shakespeare, y'all

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Speaker 1: know that diverse casting and I'm talking diverse with regard

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Speaker 1: to race and gender is pretty common in Shakespeare productions.

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Speaker 1: Like you could see every iteration of race and gender

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Speaker 1: identity in Shakespeare plays if you wanted, Like, diverse casting

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Speaker 1: has been a thing for a while for generations when

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Speaker 1: it comes to Shakespeare, right. But I think that because

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Speaker 1: people are hearing that Tom Holland is in this particular production,

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Speaker 1: they are thinking like, oh, Tom Holland, he is a

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Speaker 1: movie star, right, like he was Spider Man in six

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Speaker 1: Marvel Cinematic Universe superhero movies. So I think that they

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Speaker 1: think this is a movie that is going to be

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Speaker 1: on in the theaters, right. I think that they see

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Speaker 1: Tom Holland Romeo and Juliet, they are making a Romeo

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Speaker 1: and Juliet movie. They do not realize that this is

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Speaker 1: a theatrical production, wherein diverse casting is like commonplace and

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Speaker 1: has been for a really long time. They think it's

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Speaker 1: a film, and so they're like, Oh, it's just a

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Speaker 1: woke Romeo and Juliet, you know, just like all the

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Speaker 1: other times where these kinds of people are like, oh,

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Speaker 1: superhero movies have gotten so woke. They've ruined superhero movies

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Speaker 1: with their diverse casting and their women and their people

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Speaker 1: of color. Right. So I think that's what they think

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Speaker 1: is going on, because that's the only frame of reference

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Speaker 1: they have. Let's just cut the shit. These people don't

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Speaker 1: know anything about Like that is like very clear to me.

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Speaker 1: These are not people who go to the theater. This

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Speaker 1: is not people who have any frame of reference for

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Speaker 1: what is or is not commonplace in theater. They just

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Speaker 1: don't know, right, So they're not only racist and sexist,

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Speaker 1: but they're also philistines. Like when I was researching this,

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Speaker 1: I saw this very angry post that was like performing

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Speaker 1: pretty well in the Jordan Peterson subreddit. The post reads,

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Speaker 1: why do we let woke moralists steal our classic stories

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Speaker 1: of the Western tradition? We have no way to know

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Speaker 1: if this black person was included for a reason besides

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Speaker 1: capitulating to the wokes and virtue signaling, which I will

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Speaker 1: pause there, because Romeo and Juliet is a play about

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Speaker 1: two warring families who have deep divisions. Like, you really

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Speaker 1: can't think of another reason why you might cast a

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Speaker 1: black person in a role about a production about deep divisions.

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Speaker 1: You can't make up any reason why that might make

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Speaker 1: narrative sense within the play other than just like virtue

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Speaker 1: signaling and being woke in.

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Speaker 2: The statement, like, we have no way to know if

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Speaker 2: this black person was included for a reason besides capitulating,

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Speaker 2: like every casting decision needs to be like super justified.

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Speaker 2: Like what what do you mean you have no way

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Speaker 2: to know? Like what business is it of yours?

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Speaker 1: Well, he closes that comment with this is a story

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Speaker 1: which has defined romantic love for generations, and now will

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Speaker 1: be just another example of dun, dun, dun, anti white racism,

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Speaker 1: Like what are you talking about?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, how is an interracial couple falling in love? Anti

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Speaker 2: white racism?

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Speaker 1: Now?

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Speaker 2: It's just it's so stupid, like trying to like logically

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Speaker 2: pick apart the internet writings of an imbecile.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I completely agree, And I don't know

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Speaker 1: how these people would feel about the fact that in

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Speaker 1: Shakespeare's day the characters that are women would probably be

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Speaker 1: played by men in drag. I'm curious how how that

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Speaker 1: hits them.

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Speaker 2: Yeah right, this is like what does he say, like

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Speaker 2: the classic story of the Western tradition? Yeah, it was

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Speaker 2: like two dudes making out on stage? Is that what

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Speaker 2: he loves to see?

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Speaker 1: Something tells me he wouldn't appreciate that either. So the

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Speaker 1: top comment on that Jordan Peterson reddit threat is wow,

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Speaker 1: looks like another box office bust, Like kind of a

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Speaker 1: reference to that idea of like go woke, go broke,

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Speaker 1: that when Hollywood makes movies that feature diverse cast that

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Speaker 1: like they're going woke and that people aren't going to

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Speaker 1: support that. Now, never mind that this particular production of

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Speaker 1: Romeo and Juliet actually sold out within hours. But again,

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Speaker 1: it is not a movie like another box office bust.

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Speaker 1: What are you talking about? These people don't even know

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Speaker 1: what they're mad about.

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Speaker 2: No, they're just what are they mad about? Right? And

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Speaker 2: like they clearly they're mad about something. How sad that

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Speaker 2: they have to direct it at this like young woman, right, Like,

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Speaker 2: can't they find anything more productive to direct that childlike

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Speaker 2: rage at?

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Speaker 1: I will say this though, like, and I don't want

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Speaker 1: to make it sound like I'm speculating on celebrities, because

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Speaker 1: That's not what I like to do. But in the

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Speaker 1: fact that so many other actors, mostly black women actors

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Speaker 1: and non binary black actors, are speaking up for Francesca

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Speaker 1: in that open letter, I'm a little bit surprised that

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Speaker 1: we have not heard Tom Holland speaking up for her.

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Speaker 1: You know, they are co stars. He is the Romeo

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Speaker 1: to her Juliet. It's entirely possible that maybe he's supporting

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Speaker 1: her privately, which would be nice. But again, I do

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Speaker 1: think that loud, clear public support is the only thing

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Speaker 1: that works in situations like these, right, And I think,

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Speaker 1: especially for somebody like Tom Holland, who is the face

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Speaker 1: of this big Marvel Cinematic Universe Spider Man franchise, you know,

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Speaker 1: certainly like a battlefield for you know, people who get

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Speaker 1: angry about seeing black people or women or people of

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Speaker 1: color in their in their movies. I think having somebody

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Speaker 1: like Tom Holland be like, no, you know, this kind

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Speaker 1: of racist, sexist abuse will not be tolerated. You're not

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Speaker 1: going to do this in our name. You're not gonna like,

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Speaker 1: we don't want to see this as creatives and as

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Speaker 1: storytellers and we don't like it. I think that would

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Speaker 1: go a long way toward creating the conditions where this

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Speaker 1: kind of thing would not be commonplace. And I guess

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Speaker 1: I say that to say that I don't think it

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Speaker 1: should just be on the other black actors. Like the

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Speaker 1: black actors who organize that letter to support Francesca. I

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Speaker 1: think that's great, but it shouldn't just be on them

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Speaker 1: to create a working environment free from this kind of abuse.

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Speaker 1: Everybody should want a workplace where people can just do

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Speaker 1: the jobs that they are hired to do without being

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Speaker 1: harassed for it. Right, that benefits everybody, not just people

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Speaker 1: of color, not just traditionally marginalized people. I'm sure Tom

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Speaker 1: Hall wants a kind of working environment where that kind

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Speaker 1: of thing is not commonplace. Who wouldn't. And I just

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00:22:04,920 --> 00:22:09,760
Speaker 1: think it's just another unfair, unpaid burden that black women

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Speaker 1: actors are being made to shoulder to get us there, right, Like,

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Speaker 1: this is not a system that we created. This is

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Speaker 1: not a system that is benefiting us. However, it is

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Speaker 1: like seems to be on us to be doing the

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Speaker 1: work to fix that system and to get us to

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Speaker 1: a place where that's kind of abuse is not commonplace.

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Speaker 1: And yeah, I just I would like it's like when

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Speaker 1: you are being targeted or harassed at work that is

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Speaker 1: already a so you have to do your job, then

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Speaker 1: you have to shoulder this abuse, and then you have

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Speaker 1: to like be the one that's also doing all the

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Speaker 1: organizing to create the conditions to not have that abuse

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Speaker 1: be commonplace. It's too much. And I just think that

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Speaker 1: for somebody like Tom Holland, who certainly has a lot

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Speaker 1: of privilege as a white male superhero actor. I think

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Speaker 1: I think he can spend a little bit of that

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Speaker 1: privilege getting us, getting us to a better system, a

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Speaker 1: little bit. Not to mention the fact that he is

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Speaker 1: in an interracial relationship. He's in a relationship with Zindea,

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Speaker 1: somebody who I really like because she is really open

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Speaker 1: about the fact that, you know, as a lighter skinned

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Speaker 1: black woman with like long hair, the kind of privilege

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00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:15,879
Speaker 1: that comes along with And so he's in a relationship

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Speaker 1: with somebody who intentionally does a lot of public speaking

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Speaker 1: about the very things that Francesca is dealing with. And yeah,

433
00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:31,320
Speaker 1: I just think that we I wouldn't mind hearing from him.

434
00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:43,800
Speaker 3: Let's take a quick break utter back.

435
00:23:46,320 --> 00:23:48,760
Speaker 1: So we've talked a lot about how AI is being

436
00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:52,440
Speaker 1: used to exploit women's bodies to basically make men rich,

437
00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:55,440
Speaker 1: and this new four or four media report is exactly

438
00:23:55,480 --> 00:24:00,119
Speaker 1: what I mean. AI generated adult content creators are stealing

439
00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:03,800
Speaker 1: from actual human adult content creators. This is all from

440
00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:06,000
Speaker 1: a deeply reported four to four media piece that we

441
00:24:06,040 --> 00:24:07,680
Speaker 1: will link in the show notes. It is a really

442
00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:09,320
Speaker 1: good read. This is one of those stories that I

443
00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:12,200
Speaker 1: definitely recommend, like reading the whole thing The piece says

444
00:24:12,520 --> 00:24:16,280
Speaker 1: people running Instagram accounts for AI generated influencers and nude

445
00:24:16,359 --> 00:24:20,159
Speaker 1: models are downloading popular Instagram reels of real models and

446
00:24:20,200 --> 00:24:23,640
Speaker 1: sex workers, deep faking the AI models face onto them,

447
00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:26,920
Speaker 1: and then using the altered videos to promote paid subscriptions

448
00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:30,359
Speaker 1: to the AI generated models accounts on only fans or

449
00:24:30,359 --> 00:24:34,360
Speaker 1: other competitor sites. In some cases, these AI generated models

450
00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:38,040
Speaker 1: have amassed hundreds of thousands of Instagram followers using almost

451
00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:42,520
Speaker 1: exclusively stolen content. So it is a pretty messed up situation.

452
00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:44,400
Speaker 1: And it's even more messed up when you think about

453
00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:48,240
Speaker 1: the fact that human sex workers and adult content creators

454
00:24:48,280 --> 00:24:51,040
Speaker 1: are often really harshly moderated on the Internet, and so

455
00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:55,280
Speaker 1: while those human content creators are sort of marginalized and

456
00:24:55,320 --> 00:24:57,360
Speaker 1: pushed to the sides on the Internet, here we have

457
00:24:57,600 --> 00:25:02,040
Speaker 1: these AI generated adult content stealing from those humans and

458
00:25:02,080 --> 00:25:05,760
Speaker 1: showing up online. It is really uncanny, like it will

459
00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:09,639
Speaker 1: be the exact same video but with an AI generated

460
00:25:09,680 --> 00:25:13,560
Speaker 1: fake influencer's head like swapped into that human's body like.

461
00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:16,200
Speaker 1: I actually had to really look to see the difference

462
00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:19,600
Speaker 1: between some of these real humans video and the version

463
00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:22,919
Speaker 1: that puts an AI generated contact crater onto her face.

464
00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:27,160
Speaker 2: This sounds like a fun house mirror situation of what

465
00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:30,000
Speaker 2: we have talked about several times with new toifi apps,

466
00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:35,000
Speaker 2: where you know, in the past, people were using these

467
00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:40,760
Speaker 2: apps to put celebrities and real humans faces onto AI

468
00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:46,320
Speaker 2: generated bodies, and now these scammers and bad actors have

469
00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:48,880
Speaker 2: found a way to do the opposite thing of putting

470
00:25:50,320 --> 00:25:53,719
Speaker 2: AI generated faces on human bodies. There's just like no

471
00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:59,240
Speaker 2: end to the ways that people can use AI to

472
00:25:59,280 --> 00:25:59,960
Speaker 2: steal from women.

473
00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:04,480
Speaker 1: It's all scams and sexual exploitation the whole way down.

474
00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:07,080
Speaker 1: And I think you're exactly right. Like we talk a

475
00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:10,679
Speaker 1: ton about what deep fakes means for celebrities, but they

476
00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:13,080
Speaker 1: just goes to show it is not just celebrities who

477
00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:16,959
Speaker 1: are being targeted here, We're talking about ordinary women whose

478
00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:21,040
Speaker 1: bodies are being used without their consent, Like the labor

479
00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:24,560
Speaker 1: and the content that these women are making is being

480
00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:29,160
Speaker 1: stolen from them to make somebody else money. And more disturbingly,

481
00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:32,440
Speaker 1: fal for Media also found that there are very detailed

482
00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:35,240
Speaker 1: instructions on how to do this on YouTube, where they

483
00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:39,639
Speaker 1: recommend stealing reels on Instagram, specifically from small creators and

484
00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:43,520
Speaker 1: small accounts to avoid detection. In one of these instructional videos.

485
00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:47,200
Speaker 1: They say it's a fact that faceless OnlyFans accounts earned

486
00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:50,080
Speaker 1: three times less than once with a face. This opens

487
00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:52,560
Speaker 1: up a lot of possibilities for people to start earning

488
00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:55,119
Speaker 1: more in different ways imaginable. And now it's up to

489
00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:59,400
Speaker 1: you build your own AI influencer and start monetizing your swaps,

490
00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:02,480
Speaker 1: grow your social media accounts, get an account, start an

491
00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:05,520
Speaker 1: only fan, and make it rain. So I We'll say

492
00:27:05,560 --> 00:27:08,520
Speaker 1: something else is that this is like explicitly a money

493
00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:12,000
Speaker 1: making enterprise wherein men feel like they are like turning

494
00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:15,800
Speaker 1: the tables on women who make adult content. Like there's

495
00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:20,320
Speaker 1: a real disdain that these men feel for women who

496
00:27:20,359 --> 00:27:22,520
Speaker 1: sex workers or women who make adult content. Like that

497
00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:25,920
Speaker 1: is very clear, and I think that comments make very

498
00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:29,040
Speaker 1: clear that like this is a thing where men feel

499
00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:34,960
Speaker 1: like women have been exercising economic agency over their own content,

500
00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:37,480
Speaker 1: over their own bodies, over their sexuality, and they want

501
00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:40,160
Speaker 1: to like turn the tables on them. Like in one

502
00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:43,680
Speaker 1: of those YouTube instructional videos. The comments make clear that

503
00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:46,320
Speaker 1: the viewers of that content think that this is like

504
00:27:46,359 --> 00:27:49,840
Speaker 1: a big development for men on the internet. One comment says,

505
00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:52,800
Speaker 1: can finally take all the simps money while being a

506
00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:56,720
Speaker 1: male so comfy. Another one says, this may just be

507
00:27:56,800 --> 00:27:59,720
Speaker 1: the end of influencers and the constant quest for internet

508
00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:03,600
Speaker 1: and vanity. Love this, so it's like when you when

509
00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:06,399
Speaker 1: you really peel that apart, why are these men so

510
00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:11,160
Speaker 1: mad about influencers, about women showing their bodies on the internet,

511
00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:13,600
Speaker 1: like and making money from that, Like, why are they

512
00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:16,119
Speaker 1: It's like they're they clearly have a lot of disdain

513
00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:18,199
Speaker 1: for the women who are doing this, and it kind

514
00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:20,480
Speaker 1: of conveniently leaves out the fact that, like it is

515
00:28:20,560 --> 00:28:23,080
Speaker 1: men who are consuming that adult content. So it's like,

516
00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:25,159
Speaker 1: if anything, this should be mad at themselves. It's this.

517
00:28:25,359 --> 00:28:30,560
Speaker 1: It's this weird combination of like lust and disgust where

518
00:28:30,560 --> 00:28:32,840
Speaker 1: it's like I want to consume this, but I also

519
00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:35,720
Speaker 1: am disgusted by this, and I want to shame her

520
00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:37,960
Speaker 1: for making me want this. Like it's this, you know

521
00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:40,200
Speaker 1: what I'm saying. It's it. I think it reveals it's

522
00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:41,680
Speaker 1: very weird tension.

523
00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:46,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's like a twisted logic. I'm like the

524
00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:50,000
Speaker 2: previous story where you know it was just the nonsensical

525
00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:53,440
Speaker 2: logic of an imbecile. Here it's like a twisted logic

526
00:28:53,720 --> 00:29:00,000
Speaker 2: of yees hating women and also being like strangely jealous

527
00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:06,920
Speaker 2: of them. Yeah, it's it does not seem like the

528
00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:11,560
Speaker 2: behavior or the statements of healthy, well adjusted men.

529
00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:14,200
Speaker 1: That's definitely one way to put it. And I do

530
00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:17,040
Speaker 1: think it's like I think that what they hate is

531
00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:22,840
Speaker 1: this idea that women have been able to exercise economic agency,

532
00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:25,960
Speaker 1: and they feel like because the people who are consuming

533
00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:29,280
Speaker 1: this content are largely men, that like, men are being

534
00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:34,280
Speaker 1: fleeced into giving money to like human women who make

535
00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:37,040
Speaker 1: only fans content or whatever, and it's like it's like

536
00:29:37,080 --> 00:29:39,760
Speaker 1: they see that as a kind of economic exploitation. But

537
00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:41,960
Speaker 1: it's like, well, you're the one who's spending the money.

538
00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:43,840
Speaker 1: It's it's like, no one is forcing you to spend

539
00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:48,680
Speaker 1: this money. Yeah, but don't hate the woman who is

540
00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:52,360
Speaker 1: making this content because of that dynamic, do you know

541
00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:52,880
Speaker 1: what I'm saying?

542
00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:59,920
Speaker 2: Yeah. And there's also like some more realistic positioning of like,

543
00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:04,000
Speaker 2: we're finally taking this back from the women who have

544
00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:10,760
Speaker 2: been scamming us by making us attracted to them. And

545
00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:12,920
Speaker 2: the way that we're we as men are taking it

546
00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:16,360
Speaker 2: back is to like steal their content so that we

547
00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:20,520
Speaker 2: become the scammers of other men. Like what like it doesn't.

548
00:30:21,520 --> 00:30:22,680
Speaker 2: It doesn't make sense.

549
00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:26,120
Speaker 1: It doesn't make sense. That's a good way to put it, except.

550
00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:29,200
Speaker 2: Because I guess like it does because they're making money, right,

551
00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:31,840
Speaker 2: Like that's that's why they're doing this, to make I mean,

552
00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:33,160
Speaker 2: to steal and make money.

553
00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:36,120
Speaker 1: They're scamming. Yeah, like it does make scams always make sense.

554
00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:41,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, the layers people do it. Yeah, the layers

555
00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:46,320
Speaker 2: of like moralistic misogyny, which is kind of a weird

556
00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:49,960
Speaker 2: phrase in itself, But like that that's the part that

557
00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:53,280
Speaker 2: doesn't make sense. But the stealing and making money, that

558
00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:54,440
Speaker 2: part makes a lot of sense.

559
00:30:54,840 --> 00:30:59,760
Speaker 1: Speaking of adult content online, new anti nude technology is

560
00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:03,040
Speaker 1: to Instagram. So we've talked a lot on the show

561
00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:06,840
Speaker 1: before about sextortion schemes that really blossom on Instagram that

562
00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:10,960
Speaker 1: are mostly targeting young boys, wherein bad actors like lure

563
00:31:11,080 --> 00:31:14,880
Speaker 1: young people into sending them nudes by pretending to be

564
00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:18,400
Speaker 1: interested in them and like doing a long come where

565
00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:21,400
Speaker 1: they pretend that they're in a romantic relationship. And then

566
00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:25,200
Speaker 1: once these bad actors have those images, they then exploit

567
00:31:25,280 --> 00:31:28,160
Speaker 1: and pressure the young people into sending the money or

568
00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:30,280
Speaker 1: they'll release them to their friends and families. It is

569
00:31:30,320 --> 00:31:32,960
Speaker 1: a real problem and to combat that, Instagram announce that

570
00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:35,720
Speaker 1: they are testing out tools to detect when somebody is

571
00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:38,840
Speaker 1: sending a nude image and having that image be blurred

572
00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:41,160
Speaker 1: out in your DMS, where you would have to click

573
00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:43,320
Speaker 1: a button to say like, okay, I want to see

574
00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:46,440
Speaker 1: this image. This feature is going to be automatic for

575
00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:49,680
Speaker 1: Instagram users who are under eighteen, but everybody on Instagram

576
00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:51,760
Speaker 1: is going to be prompted to turn that feature on

577
00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:54,640
Speaker 1: in the coming weeks. So according to Instagram, it will

578
00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:58,040
Speaker 1: use on device machine learning to detect nudes, and it's

579
00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:02,040
Speaker 1: aimed at stopping sextortion schemes that target teenagers. When you

580
00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:03,760
Speaker 1: try to send a nude you'll get a warning that

581
00:32:03,800 --> 00:32:07,200
Speaker 1: says take care when sharing sensitive photos. The photo is

582
00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:11,080
Speaker 1: blurred out because nudity protection is on. Others can screenshot

583
00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:14,000
Speaker 1: or forward your photos without you knowing. You can unsend

584
00:32:14,040 --> 00:32:15,760
Speaker 1: a photo if you change your mind, but there's a

585
00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:18,320
Speaker 1: chance others have already seen it. I don't have much

586
00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:20,080
Speaker 1: to say about this. I mean, I do know that

587
00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:27,239
Speaker 1: Instagram they really have pioneered like nipple detection software, like

588
00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:30,200
Speaker 1: they really are quite good at knowing when there is

589
00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:33,320
Speaker 1: nudity present or even like the suggestion of nudity present

590
00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:37,360
Speaker 1: in images. I kind of one of the reasons I'm

591
00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:40,840
Speaker 1: having trouble with this announcement is that it just seems

592
00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:45,840
Speaker 1: to I just wish that Instagram was offering something better

593
00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:50,320
Speaker 1: than like their nudity detection software. Like I guess it's

594
00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:53,440
Speaker 1: better than nothing, but I've seen Instagram really default to

595
00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:57,000
Speaker 1: like quick fixes to signal that they're doing something, even

596
00:32:57,040 --> 00:32:59,760
Speaker 1: if those quick fixes like really don't solve the problem.

597
00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:02,440
Speaker 1: And I just have been through this a lot with Instagram,

598
00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:04,520
Speaker 1: and I can't help but wonder if they're like, oh, yeah,

599
00:33:04,520 --> 00:33:06,360
Speaker 1: we're gonna get a ton of good press on this,

600
00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:08,840
Speaker 1: like one small feature, and then we can all move on.

601
00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:12,960
Speaker 1: You know, we talked about that horrifying Wall Street Journal

602
00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:20,760
Speaker 1: report about how Instagram is really enabling pedophiles by allowing

603
00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:26,960
Speaker 1: pedophiles to subscribe to the Instagram accounts of children, using

604
00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:30,080
Speaker 1: the loophole that those accounts are like parent run accounts,

605
00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:32,800
Speaker 1: and so you are not, as an adult, allowed to

606
00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:36,280
Speaker 1: use Instagram's subscribe feature where you pay money to get

607
00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:39,640
Speaker 1: exclusive content. You can't subscribe to a child as an adult,

608
00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:42,240
Speaker 1: which makes perfect sense, but the loophole is that if

609
00:33:42,280 --> 00:33:45,120
Speaker 1: that is a parent run account adults can subscribe to

610
00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:47,680
Speaker 1: the accounts of children, and so that whole report was

611
00:33:47,760 --> 00:33:50,200
Speaker 1: kind of a bombshell about how much that is enabling

612
00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:55,080
Speaker 1: pedophiles to get direct access to young people, which is disgusting.

613
00:33:55,520 --> 00:33:58,240
Speaker 1: And so I just think that Instagram here is like

614
00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:01,800
Speaker 1: just counting on everybody reporting this and being like, oh,

615
00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:06,000
Speaker 1: looks like they're really taking it seriously, without actually demonstrating

616
00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:08,360
Speaker 1: that it's going to meaningfully address the problems.

617
00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:14,440
Speaker 2: I agree it is. It seems like a fine good

618
00:34:14,520 --> 00:34:19,200
Speaker 2: feature to have. It's hard to imagine that this is

619
00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:23,960
Speaker 2: really going to put a meaningful curb on the sort

620
00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:28,080
Speaker 2: of sextortion schemes that you talked about earlier, you know,

621
00:34:28,080 --> 00:34:30,960
Speaker 2: when you set up the story, because there's a lot

622
00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:33,560
Speaker 2: of other apps out there that people could easily switch

623
00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:36,400
Speaker 2: over into. And if somebody is running a long con

624
00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:41,840
Speaker 2: on a teenager, you know, talking to them over days,

625
00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:45,600
Speaker 2: maybe weeks, maybe months, it doesn't take a lot of

626
00:34:45,640 --> 00:34:50,919
Speaker 2: imagination to think that they would just suggest let's move

627
00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:53,000
Speaker 2: to a different app, let's go to WhatsApp, let's use

628
00:34:53,040 --> 00:34:57,320
Speaker 2: text message, send me an email, like whatever. Pretty easy workarounds.

629
00:34:58,239 --> 00:35:01,440
Speaker 2: So I think you're right that this is or like

630
00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:05,279
Speaker 2: this protects Instagram and Meta more than I think it's

631
00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:09,360
Speaker 2: going to protect the actual kids. But like, it's not

632
00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:15,680
Speaker 2: a harmful feature. What it really reinforces, though, is how

633
00:35:16,080 --> 00:35:21,120
Speaker 2: sophisticated meta and other tech platforms can be when they

634
00:35:21,160 --> 00:35:26,400
Speaker 2: want to. In terms of identifying harmful content. You know,

635
00:35:26,560 --> 00:35:29,040
Speaker 2: so there's so many other areas, Like you talked about

636
00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:36,800
Speaker 2: the people subscribing to exclusive kids content via the mommy

637
00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:43,520
Speaker 2: blogger accounts. You know, there's racist content really like a

638
00:35:43,560 --> 00:35:49,360
Speaker 2: lot of harmful content out there, setting aside like harmful

639
00:35:49,440 --> 00:35:54,319
Speaker 2: political content, like insurrectionist type content, QAnon stuff. There's so

640
00:35:54,640 --> 00:36:03,560
Speaker 2: much harmful content out there, and this kind of policy here,

641
00:36:03,600 --> 00:36:09,239
Speaker 2: this technology to detect nudes really reveals that all of

642
00:36:09,280 --> 00:36:12,920
Speaker 2: that could be detected and dealt with if the platforms

643
00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:17,240
Speaker 2: like wanted to write. It reinforces the extent to which

644
00:36:18,160 --> 00:36:20,720
Speaker 2: failing to take action on those other types of harmful

645
00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:25,360
Speaker 2: content is a choice, not some sort of technical limitation.

646
00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:32,160
Speaker 1: I completely agree. So, speaking of meta and political content,

647
00:36:32,239 --> 00:36:34,440
Speaker 1: we told you all a while back about Meta deciding

648
00:36:34,480 --> 00:36:38,120
Speaker 1: to deprioritize content related to political and social issues on

649
00:36:38,200 --> 00:36:42,000
Speaker 1: threads and Instagram. I have just anecdotally definitely seen this

650
00:36:42,080 --> 00:36:46,520
Speaker 1: happening and felt the impact on my own feed on Instagram.

651
00:36:46,560 --> 00:36:48,920
Speaker 1: Like I feel like when I scroll Instagram these days,

652
00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:51,680
Speaker 1: which is like less and less and less. I feel like,

653
00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:56,840
Speaker 1: is thirty percent kind of viral videos and stuff like

654
00:36:56,880 --> 00:37:00,000
Speaker 1: that of like people that I don't follow, maybe twenty

655
00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:03,920
Speaker 1: percent people that I actually have chosen to follow, and

656
00:37:03,960 --> 00:37:05,880
Speaker 1: then like the rest of it is like ads and

657
00:37:05,960 --> 00:37:08,439
Speaker 1: just like scammy stuff. It just like doesn't feel good

658
00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:10,360
Speaker 1: and I certainly don't feel like I'm like learning a

659
00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:14,680
Speaker 1: lot from scrolling Instagram. Well now, hundreds of political and

660
00:37:14,760 --> 00:37:19,719
Speaker 1: news content creators, including activists and meme account administrators and journalists,

661
00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:23,000
Speaker 1: signed on to an open letter asking Meta to reverse

662
00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:25,640
Speaker 1: his decision to limit the reach of accounts posting political

663
00:37:25,719 --> 00:37:29,160
Speaker 1: content on threads and Instagram. So Washington Post reports that,

664
00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:31,719
Speaker 1: just as I suspected when this was first announced, it

665
00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:35,640
Speaker 1: is impacting people who make content related to being marginalized

666
00:37:35,719 --> 00:37:39,080
Speaker 1: or like marginalized identity in some way. The piece reads

667
00:37:39,120 --> 00:37:42,280
Speaker 1: the decisions alarmed users who post about social issues including

668
00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:46,440
Speaker 1: LGBTQ rights, women's rights, racial inequality, and disability, and independent

669
00:37:46,480 --> 00:37:49,279
Speaker 1: journalists and content creators say they've struggled to reach their

670
00:37:49,320 --> 00:37:52,000
Speaker 1: audiences in recent weeks since the change was rolled out.

671
00:37:52,160 --> 00:37:56,840
Speaker 1: The limits, they say, have significantly impacted creators who are black, female, disabled,

672
00:37:56,880 --> 00:38:00,000
Speaker 1: and LGBTQ. So none of this surprise of me because

673
00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:03,960
Speaker 1: Facebook just has a whole track record of suppressing content

674
00:38:04,160 --> 00:38:09,040
Speaker 1: related to marginalized people through moderation and inequities and things

675
00:38:09,080 --> 00:38:11,480
Speaker 1: like that. This is stuff that we know about Facebook.

676
00:38:11,760 --> 00:38:13,839
Speaker 1: How it works now is that you have to intentionally

677
00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:16,640
Speaker 1: opt in to get content about political issues. We'll put

678
00:38:16,640 --> 00:38:18,520
Speaker 1: directions on how to do that in the show notes.

679
00:38:19,000 --> 00:38:20,680
Speaker 1: But the folks who signed the letter say that it

680
00:38:20,680 --> 00:38:22,600
Speaker 1: should be the other way around. We should be given

681
00:38:22,640 --> 00:38:25,560
Speaker 1: the option to opt out of political content. The letter reads,

682
00:38:26,160 --> 00:38:28,799
Speaker 1: as users of metas platform, we did not choose to

683
00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:32,200
Speaker 1: automatically opt out of receiving suggested political content on civic

684
00:38:32,239 --> 00:38:35,960
Speaker 1: activism and news updates. Removing political recommendations as a default

685
00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:40,040
Speaker 1: setting and consequently stopping people from seeing suggested political content

686
00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:44,120
Speaker 1: poses a serious threat to political engagement, education, and activism.

687
00:38:44,560 --> 00:38:47,400
Speaker 1: So I should also add that we still don't really

688
00:38:47,719 --> 00:38:51,800
Speaker 1: have clarity on exactly how Facebook is determining, like whose

689
00:38:51,840 --> 00:38:56,279
Speaker 1: experiences are political and whose aren't. I could look at

690
00:38:56,360 --> 00:38:58,879
Speaker 1: Facebook's track record and make some guesses as to how

691
00:38:58,880 --> 00:39:01,400
Speaker 1: they are doing that. All they have really said is

692
00:39:01,440 --> 00:39:04,400
Speaker 1: like things that are pretty vague. They say. Political content

693
00:39:04,520 --> 00:39:07,960
Speaker 1: under the new restrictions includes any content that touches on

694
00:39:08,080 --> 00:39:11,480
Speaker 1: politics or, in Meta's words, topics that affect a group

695
00:39:11,480 --> 00:39:15,680
Speaker 1: of people and or society at large, which like that

696
00:39:15,840 --> 00:39:18,600
Speaker 1: is so vague that it's clear to me that that's

697
00:39:18,640 --> 00:39:23,080
Speaker 1: like purposely vague. These topics include content about LGBTQ and

698
00:39:23,120 --> 00:39:26,680
Speaker 1: women's rights, as well as posts about racial and disability discrimination.

699
00:39:27,600 --> 00:39:30,680
Speaker 1: Many creators also have reported that the filter's restrict content

700
00:39:30,800 --> 00:39:33,400
Speaker 1: on seemingly unrelated topics.

701
00:39:34,040 --> 00:39:37,440
Speaker 2: This really reminds me to the first story that we

702
00:39:38,000 --> 00:39:42,280
Speaker 2: talked about about the actor who is receiving so much

703
00:39:42,920 --> 00:39:48,799
Speaker 2: online hate and Tom Holland not more vocally standing up

704
00:39:48,840 --> 00:39:54,759
Speaker 2: to support her. You know, it seems like Instagram is

705
00:39:54,880 --> 00:40:01,120
Speaker 2: really trying to just create a pleasant, non threatening, non

706
00:40:02,280 --> 00:40:11,279
Speaker 2: controversial experience. Uh. And I think it's easy to, yeah,

707
00:40:11,360 --> 00:40:16,720
Speaker 2: not want to rock the boat. And when people are

708
00:40:16,760 --> 00:40:20,919
Speaker 2: not part of groups that are receiving targeted hate, ah,

709
00:40:21,840 --> 00:40:23,640
Speaker 2: it can be a lot easier to just like look

710
00:40:23,680 --> 00:40:26,080
Speaker 2: the other way and not want to feel and say

711
00:40:26,320 --> 00:40:28,400
Speaker 2: and like, you know, in this case, be like, Oh,

712
00:40:28,440 --> 00:40:30,759
Speaker 2: it's it's political content, We're not going to include that

713
00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:36,480
Speaker 2: on the platform. People talking about their experiences being LGBTQ

714
00:40:38,239 --> 00:40:44,520
Speaker 2: in this you know, current climate of trans hate and

715
00:40:44,600 --> 00:40:48,920
Speaker 2: how But like that's so harmful to just not to

716
00:40:49,200 --> 00:40:54,839
Speaker 2: exclude that any conversation about that. It just feels. Yeah,

717
00:40:54,880 --> 00:40:58,919
Speaker 2: I think that that letter is exactly right, that it

718
00:40:58,960 --> 00:41:04,719
Speaker 2: is not just cruel of Instagram to exclude any kind

719
00:41:04,760 --> 00:41:10,640
Speaker 2: of content that discusses people's experiences facing discrimination or whatever

720
00:41:10,640 --> 00:41:15,200
Speaker 2: their experiences are. But it's like reckless to pretend as if,

721
00:41:16,920 --> 00:41:20,760
Speaker 2: you know, we can have a conversation that doesn't include

722
00:41:20,800 --> 00:41:24,359
Speaker 2: those things. Like what a harmful, reckless conversation that would be.

723
00:41:24,560 --> 00:41:26,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I have so much to say about

724
00:41:26,120 --> 00:41:29,200
Speaker 1: that one. I think that Facebook is trying to tell

725
00:41:29,280 --> 00:41:32,200
Speaker 1: us something that I just we know is not true. Right, So,

726
00:41:32,520 --> 00:41:34,719
Speaker 1: for instance, if you're a theater buff and you're really

727
00:41:34,760 --> 00:41:37,879
Speaker 1: interested in theater, this is the story that we led

728
00:41:37,920 --> 00:41:41,439
Speaker 1: with about Francesca's racist sexist harassment. Is that a theater

729
00:41:41,640 --> 00:41:44,000
Speaker 1: story or a political story because it deals with race.

730
00:41:44,160 --> 00:41:47,360
Speaker 1: Facebook is trying to act as if your people's interests

731
00:41:47,440 --> 00:41:51,360
Speaker 1: are so siloed that identity and things like politics and

732
00:41:51,400 --> 00:41:55,120
Speaker 1: social issues don't bleed into that. That's not true. Theater

733
00:41:55,400 --> 00:41:58,359
Speaker 1: is a political issue. That first story illustrates that. It's

734
00:41:58,360 --> 00:42:01,440
Speaker 1: not that Francesca was like making it a political issue.

735
00:42:01,480 --> 00:42:03,760
Speaker 1: Other people were making it a political issue, and therefore

736
00:42:04,120 --> 00:42:06,440
Speaker 1: that story about theater it's also a race issue, is

737
00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:11,759
Speaker 1: also a political issue. Movies, entertainment, sports, technology, those things

738
00:42:11,760 --> 00:42:14,960
Speaker 1: are identity issues. They are political issues, they are social issues,

739
00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:17,680
Speaker 1: and pretending like that's not how we live our lives

740
00:42:17,920 --> 00:42:20,000
Speaker 1: is just it's a farce. I think that anybody who

741
00:42:20,040 --> 00:42:22,960
Speaker 1: is of any kind of like marginalized identity or also

742
00:42:23,280 --> 00:42:26,840
Speaker 1: not from any kind of marginalized identity, is really familiar

743
00:42:26,960 --> 00:42:30,160
Speaker 1: with the ways that there are all these intersections of

744
00:42:30,200 --> 00:42:32,399
Speaker 1: the way we live our lives and our identity in

745
00:42:32,880 --> 00:42:35,400
Speaker 1: all of these other things that might not look so

746
00:42:35,840 --> 00:42:38,359
Speaker 1: identity driven on its face. And so one I think

747
00:42:38,440 --> 00:42:41,360
Speaker 1: that Instagram is like totally trying to pee on our

748
00:42:41,440 --> 00:42:43,239
Speaker 1: leg and tell us it's raining to quote my girl,

749
00:42:43,320 --> 00:42:47,760
Speaker 1: judge Judy two. Facebook has had a huge direct hand

750
00:42:47,920 --> 00:42:53,680
Speaker 1: in polarizing our democracy, polarizing our communities. Right, they've made

751
00:42:53,760 --> 00:42:56,160
Speaker 1: money off of that. I don't even think that Facebook

752
00:42:56,160 --> 00:42:59,040
Speaker 1: would disagree that they've done that. Their internal reporting makes

753
00:42:59,040 --> 00:43:00,680
Speaker 1: that very clear that they have. I've had a huge

754
00:43:00,719 --> 00:43:02,839
Speaker 1: direct hand in that, and I've made money from that.

755
00:43:03,200 --> 00:43:05,880
Speaker 1: To now turn around and be like, oh, well, we

756
00:43:05,920 --> 00:43:07,399
Speaker 1: don't want to do anything. We don't want to show

757
00:43:07,400 --> 00:43:09,759
Speaker 1: people anything that's going to rile them up. Bit, you

758
00:43:09,840 --> 00:43:11,520
Speaker 1: made a bunch of money off of riving people up,

759
00:43:11,560 --> 00:43:13,680
Speaker 1: and so now to tell me that I can't post

760
00:43:13,800 --> 00:43:17,320
Speaker 1: about my experiences after you have made money and contributed

761
00:43:17,360 --> 00:43:20,040
Speaker 1: to a climate where people are polarized, it just doesn't work.

762
00:43:20,239 --> 00:43:22,239
Speaker 1: I'm not I'm just not willing to accept that.

763
00:43:22,840 --> 00:43:28,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like they broke our democracy. And then they were like, oh,

764
00:43:28,280 --> 00:43:31,200
Speaker 2: you know what, this is getting too messy. We're just

765
00:43:31,239 --> 00:43:34,600
Speaker 2: gonna like leave it. Like, no, you broke it. You

766
00:43:34,800 --> 00:43:40,760
Speaker 2: created this huge information ecosystem, uh, and like intentionally shaped

767
00:43:40,800 --> 00:43:43,840
Speaker 2: it and distorted it from what it was. You have

768
00:43:43,880 --> 00:43:49,839
Speaker 2: a responsibility to try to fix it. And like I'm

769
00:43:49,840 --> 00:43:52,960
Speaker 2: not saying that, like it's meta's responsibility to fix democracy.

770
00:43:53,400 --> 00:43:57,800
Speaker 2: But yeah, they, like you said, they had a huge

771
00:43:57,960 --> 00:44:01,879
Speaker 2: direct hand in creating the climate that we now have

772
00:44:02,080 --> 00:44:08,480
Speaker 2: of like polarization and riling people up, and they just

773
00:44:08,520 --> 00:44:10,480
Speaker 2: want to walk away and wash their hands of the

774
00:44:10,480 --> 00:44:15,200
Speaker 2: whole thing. It's at least they're consistent.

775
00:44:15,840 --> 00:44:18,200
Speaker 1: So that is exactly what Nicole Gill, who is a

776
00:44:18,239 --> 00:44:21,239
Speaker 1: co founder at Accountable Tech, which is the organization that

777
00:44:21,320 --> 00:44:23,680
Speaker 1: organized this letter. That's exactly what Nicole Gill had to say.

778
00:44:24,000 --> 00:44:26,080
Speaker 1: And I think she points out something really important here

779
00:44:26,120 --> 00:44:28,799
Speaker 1: is that they're making this decision right before a big

780
00:44:28,840 --> 00:44:31,200
Speaker 1: election year. It's not just a big election year for

781
00:44:31,200 --> 00:44:34,200
Speaker 1: the United States. Multiple countries around the world will have

782
00:44:34,280 --> 00:44:37,640
Speaker 1: elections this year, Nicole Gill said in a statement. Limiting

783
00:44:37,640 --> 00:44:40,279
Speaker 1: the reach of creators without notice or definition of what

784
00:44:40,360 --> 00:44:44,440
Speaker 1: constitutes political content threatens their identities and livelihoods, while leaving

785
00:44:44,520 --> 00:44:47,239
Speaker 1: hundreds of millions of users without access to critical news

786
00:44:47,239 --> 00:44:51,240
Speaker 1: content during the biggest global election year in history. Today's

787
00:44:51,280 --> 00:44:55,200
Speaker 1: fragmented media environment that meta helped create has resulted in

788
00:44:55,239 --> 00:44:58,760
Speaker 1: social media platforms having outsize influence over the way information

789
00:44:58,880 --> 00:45:02,040
Speaker 1: is presented and disseminated, and this decision will have negative

790
00:45:02,040 --> 00:45:05,640
Speaker 1: effects both on and off their platforms. And I guess,

791
00:45:05,680 --> 00:45:08,200
Speaker 1: like to your point, like that's what I think, like,

792
00:45:08,239 --> 00:45:12,239
Speaker 1: we shouldn't have to just rely on Mark Zuckerberg and

793
00:45:12,480 --> 00:45:16,920
Speaker 1: Adam Mosseerri to determine whose experience and whose life is

794
00:45:17,000 --> 00:45:20,200
Speaker 1: politics and whose isn't We already know how they use

795
00:45:20,239 --> 00:45:22,000
Speaker 1: that power when they when they have it, they don't

796
00:45:22,080 --> 00:45:24,080
Speaker 1: use it well, they don't use it equitably, right, And

797
00:45:24,120 --> 00:45:25,759
Speaker 1: so I don't think that we should just allow them

798
00:45:25,760 --> 00:45:29,400
Speaker 1: to create and maintain this system that marginalizes people who

799
00:45:29,440 --> 00:45:31,960
Speaker 1: are already marginalized, and they get to make money off

800
00:45:32,000 --> 00:45:34,360
Speaker 1: of it, right, Like going back to that Francesca Romeo

801
00:45:34,400 --> 00:45:37,640
Speaker 1: and Juliet story. I didn't decide that my existence as

802
00:45:37,640 --> 00:45:39,880
Speaker 1: a black woman is political. Other people did, and so

803
00:45:39,960 --> 00:45:42,480
Speaker 1: telling me that I can't then talk about that and

804
00:45:42,480 --> 00:45:44,759
Speaker 1: that if I do, I'm going to be deprioritized, I

805
00:45:44,800 --> 00:45:46,400
Speaker 1: don't accept that. I don't think that we should be

806
00:45:46,440 --> 00:45:51,440
Speaker 1: relying on these wealthy, white, straight ciss tech leaders and

807
00:45:51,480 --> 00:45:55,480
Speaker 1: billionaires to define whose experiences count as politics and who's don't.

808
00:45:56,040 --> 00:46:00,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, I some of the I like to just like

809
00:46:00,680 --> 00:46:04,080
Speaker 2: close my eyes and imagine a world, like an alternate,

810
00:46:04,640 --> 00:46:08,279
Speaker 2: parallel universe where I don't know, maybe Mark Zuckerberg got

811
00:46:08,360 --> 00:46:10,719
Speaker 2: like hit on the head, or maybe he took some

812
00:46:10,880 --> 00:46:14,239
Speaker 2: LSD and had a revelation or something and decided to

813
00:46:14,360 --> 00:46:19,399
Speaker 2: like radically change what he's doing and instead of like

814
00:46:19,560 --> 00:46:24,400
Speaker 2: dumping forty six billion dollars into the metaverse, which like

815
00:46:24,880 --> 00:46:27,160
Speaker 2: just earned that money up. What if he had taken

816
00:46:27,800 --> 00:46:30,960
Speaker 2: like a fraction of that and put it towards like

817
00:46:31,120 --> 00:46:35,719
Speaker 2: research and innovating in a way to like increase literacy

818
00:46:35,960 --> 00:46:40,320
Speaker 2: and connection and compassion among their users, right, Like, wouldn't

819
00:46:40,320 --> 00:46:41,120
Speaker 2: that have been nice?

820
00:46:41,400 --> 00:46:43,640
Speaker 1: Knowing him, he'd find a way to muck that up to.

821
00:46:49,040 --> 00:46:49,200
Speaker 2: More.

822
00:46:49,239 --> 00:47:02,520
Speaker 3: After a quick break, let's get right back into it.

823
00:47:04,280 --> 00:47:06,040
Speaker 1: So I do have a little bit of news kind

824
00:47:06,040 --> 00:47:08,960
Speaker 1: of on that front, which is that lawmakers unveiled a

825
00:47:09,040 --> 00:47:12,040
Speaker 1: new proposal that would for the first time give consumers

826
00:47:12,120 --> 00:47:14,799
Speaker 1: broad rights to control how tech companies like Meta and

827
00:47:14,840 --> 00:47:18,319
Speaker 1: TikTok and Google use their personal data. I say this

828
00:47:18,360 --> 00:47:20,759
Speaker 1: a lot, but surprisingly here in the United States we

829
00:47:20,800 --> 00:47:23,440
Speaker 1: do not have any real data privacy protections here, which

830
00:47:23,600 --> 00:47:25,719
Speaker 1: again every time I say it blows my mind. But

831
00:47:25,880 --> 00:47:29,440
Speaker 1: if this proposal succeeds, it could establish something again to

832
00:47:29,480 --> 00:47:32,480
Speaker 1: the European Union's landmark privacy law known as the General

833
00:47:32,560 --> 00:47:36,360
Speaker 1: Data Protection Regulation or the GDPR, and kind of attempt

834
00:47:36,480 --> 00:47:41,080
Speaker 1: to curb this like totally unregulated wild wild west that

835
00:47:41,120 --> 00:47:43,080
Speaker 1: we have in the United States where all of our

836
00:47:43,120 --> 00:47:45,479
Speaker 1: personal data is just for sale by the highest bidder

837
00:47:45,520 --> 00:47:48,040
Speaker 1: whoever wants to use it to make money. That's the situation,

838
00:47:48,160 --> 00:47:52,400
Speaker 1: and so this could ring in some of that if passed.

839
00:47:53,000 --> 00:47:57,200
Speaker 2: Thank god, it's wild that it's twenty twenty four and

840
00:47:59,640 --> 00:48:02,000
Speaker 2: we're just getting around to this in this country now.

841
00:48:02,040 --> 00:48:05,799
Speaker 2: It is completely banana pants that we do not have

842
00:48:05,960 --> 00:48:09,840
Speaker 2: any laws protecting our data privacy.

843
00:48:10,239 --> 00:48:13,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I was just reading about how the

844
00:48:13,719 --> 00:48:18,400
Speaker 1: FCC just i think yesterday, passed a law that internet

845
00:48:18,440 --> 00:48:22,040
Speaker 1: service providers have to give the same way that when

846
00:48:22,040 --> 00:48:24,280
Speaker 1: you buy a box of cereal, it has the nutritional

847
00:48:24,320 --> 00:48:25,960
Speaker 1: label that tells you what's in it and all the

848
00:48:26,000 --> 00:48:28,840
Speaker 1: different things that are in it. Internet service providers will

849
00:48:28,880 --> 00:48:34,080
Speaker 1: now be forced by law to clearly include a breakdown

850
00:48:34,120 --> 00:48:36,520
Speaker 1: of the broad band facts that you're paying for, so

851
00:48:36,640 --> 00:48:39,319
Speaker 1: like the monthly price of your internet, you know, the

852
00:48:39,680 --> 00:48:43,440
Speaker 1: additional charges, all of that, and they have to clearly

853
00:48:43,680 --> 00:48:46,640
Speaker 1: label this both online and at physical stores. It looks

854
00:48:46,760 --> 00:48:48,960
Speaker 1: almost exactly like the nutritional label that you would find

855
00:48:48,960 --> 00:48:51,279
Speaker 1: on a box of cereal. And what I was so

856
00:48:51,360 --> 00:48:54,000
Speaker 1: struck by by that story is that, first of all,

857
00:48:54,080 --> 00:48:55,680
Speaker 1: the fact that we did it, that there was nothing

858
00:48:55,800 --> 00:48:58,640
Speaker 1: requiring that kind of clarity to consumers to begin with,

859
00:48:58,719 --> 00:49:02,360
Speaker 1: and the fact that internet service providers like Comcast really

860
00:49:02,600 --> 00:49:04,400
Speaker 1: fought this. They were like, no, we shouldn't have to

861
00:49:04,440 --> 00:49:07,160
Speaker 1: do this, and it just really struck me of like,

862
00:49:07,840 --> 00:49:09,960
Speaker 1: y'all just want to scam. Y'all just want to take

863
00:49:10,000 --> 00:49:11,920
Speaker 1: people for a ride. You just want to bait and switch,

864
00:49:11,960 --> 00:49:14,239
Speaker 1: and you want that the ability to do that to

865
00:49:14,280 --> 00:49:17,640
Speaker 1: be protected and enshrined by law, your ability to scam

866
00:49:17,640 --> 00:49:19,640
Speaker 1: and lie to people. And so I remember when I

867
00:49:19,680 --> 00:49:22,319
Speaker 1: moved into a new apartment signing up for Comcast and

868
00:49:22,320 --> 00:49:24,640
Speaker 1: they were giving me like a deal on Internet and

869
00:49:24,840 --> 00:49:26,640
Speaker 1: being like, okay, so is this deal going to be

870
00:49:26,960 --> 00:49:30,000
Speaker 1: forever or is this a you know, an introductory rate

871
00:49:30,040 --> 00:49:31,759
Speaker 1: and then it's going to go up And they were like, oh,

872
00:49:31,800 --> 00:49:34,360
Speaker 1: it's the deal forever and deal forever, deal forever. I

873
00:49:34,400 --> 00:49:35,799
Speaker 1: was like, are you sure? Are you sure? Are you sure?

874
00:49:35,840 --> 00:49:37,480
Speaker 1: They were like, oh, yeah, your price will never go up.

875
00:49:37,719 --> 00:49:39,840
Speaker 1: Well that was a lie because my price did go up.

876
00:49:39,840 --> 00:49:43,200
Speaker 1: And then they were like, oh, well it was this

877
00:49:43,320 --> 00:49:45,239
Speaker 1: or that we had to add thief. And it's like

878
00:49:45,600 --> 00:49:48,359
Speaker 1: people deserve clarity, like it should be a given that

879
00:49:48,400 --> 00:49:51,319
Speaker 1: people are knowing what they are being asked to pay

880
00:49:51,400 --> 00:49:53,040
Speaker 1: for like this idea that you should just be able

881
00:49:53,080 --> 00:49:55,200
Speaker 1: to obscure that and it's fine. And not only is

882
00:49:55,239 --> 00:49:57,719
Speaker 1: it fine that like it is your right as a corporation.

883
00:49:58,280 --> 00:50:00,040
Speaker 1: I don't know. I just the fact that we we

884
00:50:00,080 --> 00:50:03,080
Speaker 1: are finally now just getting around and being like, oh wait,

885
00:50:03,760 --> 00:50:06,759
Speaker 1: maybe consumers do deserve some protections. Maybe it shouldn't just

886
00:50:06,800 --> 00:50:09,960
Speaker 1: be like, fuck, you pay me and I can lie

887
00:50:10,000 --> 00:50:12,960
Speaker 1: to your face like maybe that's not a helpful dynamic

888
00:50:12,960 --> 00:50:13,520
Speaker 1: for anybody.

889
00:50:13,960 --> 00:50:16,719
Speaker 2: I love how raw you are about this Comcast bill,

890
00:50:16,880 --> 00:50:21,640
Speaker 2: like a decade ago that yeah, you're still like grinding

891
00:50:21,640 --> 00:50:24,759
Speaker 2: this axe and we're like, we finally have a bill

892
00:50:24,840 --> 00:50:29,960
Speaker 2: to protect privacy. You know what the real like thing is, though.

893
00:50:30,120 --> 00:50:32,720
Speaker 1: Mike, I was in grad school. I had no money

894
00:50:32,760 --> 00:50:37,720
Speaker 1: when that bill increased. I mean I asked, in every

895
00:50:37,719 --> 00:50:40,720
Speaker 1: which way is my bill going to get going to increase?

896
00:50:40,760 --> 00:50:43,120
Speaker 1: And they insured me No. I even had my dad,

897
00:50:43,160 --> 00:50:45,239
Speaker 1: who is so good on the phone dealing with like

898
00:50:45,640 --> 00:50:48,640
Speaker 1: salespeople and like that kind of thing. I called him

899
00:50:48,680 --> 00:50:50,600
Speaker 1: while he was in the room to coach me through

900
00:50:50,760 --> 00:50:52,320
Speaker 1: what to ask to make sure because I was like,

901
00:50:52,360 --> 00:50:54,440
Speaker 1: I really cannot afford if my bill goes up and

902
00:50:54,480 --> 00:50:56,200
Speaker 1: when my bill went up. Yeah, I was heated. I

903
00:50:56,239 --> 00:50:58,000
Speaker 1: was mad. I'm still mad ten years later.

904
00:50:58,440 --> 00:50:59,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, I can oh a minute I.

905
00:51:01,920 --> 00:51:02,480
Speaker 1: Comcast.

906
00:51:03,160 --> 00:51:06,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean if yeah, we're gonna go down this path.

907
00:51:06,800 --> 00:51:09,239
Speaker 2: I remember years ago when I lived in Madison, when

908
00:51:09,239 --> 00:51:10,560
Speaker 2: I was going to grad school there, there were a

909
00:51:10,600 --> 00:51:14,279
Speaker 2: couple internet service providers in town, and I think every

910
00:51:14,360 --> 00:51:16,759
Speaker 2: year I would like switch from one to the other

911
00:51:16,880 --> 00:51:19,840
Speaker 2: so I could get some kind of promotional deal. What

912
00:51:19,920 --> 00:51:24,239
Speaker 2: a stupid way to like manage one's internet right, And

913
00:51:24,280 --> 00:51:29,319
Speaker 2: it just especially given how central the Internet is to

914
00:51:30,040 --> 00:51:33,000
Speaker 2: so many functions of day to day life. Like we

915
00:51:33,120 --> 00:51:36,000
Speaker 2: use it to communicate, we use it to work, we

916
00:51:36,200 --> 00:51:38,320
Speaker 2: use it for entertainment, we use it to get information

917
00:51:38,640 --> 00:51:41,680
Speaker 2: about the world so that we can be civic participants.

918
00:51:42,480 --> 00:51:48,400
Speaker 2: It's so absolutely critical to everything we do. And that

919
00:51:48,560 --> 00:51:52,600
Speaker 2: just makes it even more mind blowing that we still

920
00:51:52,880 --> 00:51:58,080
Speaker 2: have no federal laws protecting our privacy when we are

921
00:51:58,120 --> 00:51:59,120
Speaker 2: on the Internet.

922
00:51:59,560 --> 00:52:01,879
Speaker 1: Yes, such to the Internet, like the UN says, it's

923
00:52:01,880 --> 00:52:04,080
Speaker 1: a human right, but it's like to go through it,

924
00:52:04,080 --> 00:52:05,920
Speaker 1: I have to deal with an Internet service provider that

925
00:52:06,040 --> 00:52:08,040
Speaker 1: is allowed to lie to me and scam me and

926
00:52:08,080 --> 00:52:11,000
Speaker 1: exploit me. I don't think so. So this last thing

927
00:52:11,040 --> 00:52:13,120
Speaker 1: I wanted to talk about, it's not really news, but

928
00:52:13,200 --> 00:52:15,799
Speaker 1: it's something that I find deeply interesting that I just

929
00:52:15,840 --> 00:52:17,680
Speaker 1: wanted to share with all of you. So in our

930
00:52:17,719 --> 00:52:20,520
Speaker 1: Andrew Huberman two part episode, which, by the way, thanks

931
00:52:20,520 --> 00:52:23,000
Speaker 1: to all of y'all for listening. We've gotten such interesting

932
00:52:23,000 --> 00:52:25,319
Speaker 1: feedback from that episode. Thank you for going down that

933
00:52:25,440 --> 00:52:27,400
Speaker 1: rabbit hole with me, because it was certainly a rabbit

934
00:52:27,400 --> 00:52:28,840
Speaker 1: hole as I wanted to go down, so thank you

935
00:52:28,920 --> 00:52:31,879
Speaker 1: for letting me do that. But I ended that episode

936
00:52:32,120 --> 00:52:35,440
Speaker 1: talking about how I really feel like podcasting is this

937
00:52:35,480 --> 00:52:40,239
Speaker 1: tricky space where listeners really trust podcasters and help podcasts,

938
00:52:40,280 --> 00:52:43,839
Speaker 1: for whatever reason, kind of automatically convey a certain level

939
00:52:43,880 --> 00:52:46,480
Speaker 1: of authority. I've talked about it on the podcast before,

940
00:52:46,520 --> 00:52:50,319
Speaker 1: but I have noticed these TikTok videos where people look

941
00:52:50,520 --> 00:52:53,400
Speaker 1: like they are recording a podcast in a podcast studio.

942
00:52:53,760 --> 00:52:55,840
Speaker 1: There's a microphone in front of them. They've got like

943
00:52:55,920 --> 00:52:59,359
Speaker 1: the neon sign behind them, but I know I can

944
00:52:59,400 --> 00:53:01,920
Speaker 1: tell that that mic is not turned on, and in

945
00:53:01,920 --> 00:53:04,160
Speaker 1: some cases it's not even plugged into anything. It's just

946
00:53:04,160 --> 00:53:05,759
Speaker 1: like a prop that is in front of them.

947
00:53:05,840 --> 00:53:05,960
Speaker 3: Right.

948
00:53:06,000 --> 00:53:08,560
Speaker 1: I've seen that where I'm like, fact, this the way

949
00:53:08,600 --> 00:53:13,040
Speaker 1: this setup doesn't make any sense because when I record

950
00:53:13,080 --> 00:53:15,520
Speaker 1: my podcast, it looks like you can just tell that

951
00:53:15,600 --> 00:53:19,040
Speaker 1: there are wires everywhere your microphone is plugged into something

952
00:53:19,080 --> 00:53:21,919
Speaker 1: that is recording. It's not just sitting wirelessly in front

953
00:53:21,920 --> 00:53:24,040
Speaker 1: of you, like like's where where's the audio that you're

954
00:53:24,080 --> 00:53:27,439
Speaker 1: uploading going to? You know, Well, my suspicions have been

955
00:53:27,480 --> 00:53:30,680
Speaker 1: confirmed by this piece in Bloomberg breaking down the cottage

956
00:53:30,719 --> 00:53:35,120
Speaker 1: industry of hired actors who are you know, selling their

957
00:53:35,160 --> 00:53:38,600
Speaker 1: services on websites like fiver, who take money to make

958
00:53:38,680 --> 00:53:43,400
Speaker 1: fake podcasts as user generated content style advertising. They even

959
00:53:43,440 --> 00:53:46,040
Speaker 1: have an upsell where they will make a fake podcast

960
00:53:46,400 --> 00:53:49,040
Speaker 1: in front of one of those glowing neon signs to

961
00:53:49,080 --> 00:53:51,960
Speaker 1: make it look like a real podcast. So in the

962
00:53:52,000 --> 00:53:54,080
Speaker 1: piece they talk to this guy named Wolf who is

963
00:53:54,120 --> 00:53:56,799
Speaker 1: like always in these tiktoks that make it look like

964
00:53:56,840 --> 00:53:59,840
Speaker 1: he is podcasting, wherein he's like talking up a product

965
00:54:00,120 --> 00:54:03,080
Speaker 1: asually mentioning it's benefits and why he loves it. Maybe

966
00:54:03,080 --> 00:54:06,520
Speaker 1: you'll think this podcast feels slightly excessive and it's enthusiasm

967
00:54:06,640 --> 00:54:10,239
Speaker 1: for a particular thing. But TikTok's content onslought doesn't leave

968
00:54:10,320 --> 00:54:13,719
Speaker 1: much time for questioning. The takeaway is here's a passionate

969
00:54:13,719 --> 00:54:17,880
Speaker 1: person speaking authoritatively on a podcast. In reality, these clips

970
00:54:17,920 --> 00:54:20,920
Speaker 1: are not coming from podcasts. In fact, Wolf is being

971
00:54:21,000 --> 00:54:23,640
Speaker 1: paid one hundred and ninety five dollars for each of

972
00:54:23,680 --> 00:54:27,120
Speaker 1: these one minute advertisements designed to look like a podcast.

973
00:54:27,560 --> 00:54:30,080
Speaker 1: On the freelance service website fiver, where he sells his

974
00:54:30,160 --> 00:54:34,040
Speaker 1: service to brands, Wolf claims, I will make a UGC podcast,

975
00:54:34,160 --> 00:54:37,880
Speaker 1: video ad or a user generated content ad using the

976
00:54:37,880 --> 00:54:40,720
Speaker 1: client's own script to talk about the product. The custom

977
00:54:40,800 --> 00:54:43,480
Speaker 1: neon sign is an up charge. So this is just

978
00:54:43,880 --> 00:54:46,880
Speaker 1: fascinating to me. Honestly, it actually kind of sounds like

979
00:54:46,920 --> 00:54:48,640
Speaker 1: a pretty good racket. He says that he makes almost

980
00:54:48,719 --> 00:54:52,360
Speaker 1: twenty thousand dollars a month doing this like France. If

981
00:54:52,440 --> 00:54:54,759
Speaker 1: y'all are listening and you want this, not only do

982
00:54:54,840 --> 00:54:57,000
Speaker 1: I have a podcast, Mike, I actually even know how

983
00:54:57,040 --> 00:54:58,279
Speaker 1: to turn it on. So if you want to give

984
00:54:58,280 --> 00:54:59,520
Speaker 1: me twenty k a month to do this, I will

985
00:54:59,560 --> 00:55:00,560
Speaker 1: gladly do for you.

986
00:55:01,160 --> 00:55:05,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, no doubt. We'll even throw a neon sign for free,

987
00:55:05,719 --> 00:55:09,920
Speaker 2: no up charge, part of the basic package.

988
00:55:10,760 --> 00:55:12,879
Speaker 1: So a lot of the services they are hawking, which

989
00:55:12,880 --> 00:55:16,160
Speaker 1: I guess doesn't really surprise me. Are crypto or like

990
00:55:16,200 --> 00:55:20,520
Speaker 1: financial services or like men's health and wellness related friend

991
00:55:20,520 --> 00:55:22,920
Speaker 1: of the show Ryan at one of my favorite newsletters,

992
00:55:23,000 --> 00:55:27,760
Speaker 1: Garbage Day, he called them weird gen z hustlebrow influencers,

993
00:55:27,800 --> 00:55:30,399
Speaker 1: which I love that. I love that name for them.

994
00:55:30,760 --> 00:55:34,879
Speaker 1: So Ryan's theory is that during COVID, the podcast mic

995
00:55:34,960 --> 00:55:38,440
Speaker 1: became a symbol of authority or a visual signal of importance,

996
00:55:38,760 --> 00:55:41,200
Speaker 1: sort of like how during the era of peak ted Talk,

997
00:55:41,480 --> 00:55:44,000
Speaker 1: a bunch of guys would film themselves on stages, add

998
00:55:44,040 --> 00:55:46,680
Speaker 1: some inspirational music, and then post it to Facebook. If

999
00:55:46,680 --> 00:55:49,040
Speaker 1: there's a microphone in front of you, I assume the

1000
00:55:49,120 --> 00:55:52,520
Speaker 1: logic goes it means you're important enough to record, which

1001
00:55:52,600 --> 00:55:54,640
Speaker 1: I can tell you. Anybody can buy a podcast mic

1002
00:55:54,760 --> 00:55:56,360
Speaker 1: like it doesn't mean anything.

1003
00:55:56,760 --> 00:55:59,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, you can get with for like sixty bucks, especially

1004
00:55:59,239 --> 00:56:00,719
Speaker 2: if you're not gonna plug it. You know, you don't

1005
00:56:00,719 --> 00:56:03,480
Speaker 2: even need to. Who cares about quality when it's not

1006
00:56:03,600 --> 00:56:04,000
Speaker 2: plugged in.

1007
00:56:04,360 --> 00:56:07,040
Speaker 1: It sounds like there was one kind of white whale

1008
00:56:07,080 --> 00:56:10,399
Speaker 1: TikTok video that made Ryan like skeptical that these people

1009
00:56:10,400 --> 00:56:13,880
Speaker 1: were making actual podcasts. It was this very viral TikTok

1010
00:56:13,920 --> 00:56:16,240
Speaker 1: of a woman in front of a podcast Mike talking

1011
00:56:16,280 --> 00:56:19,840
Speaker 1: about how she would like sexually please her husband. It

1012
00:56:19,880 --> 00:56:22,600
Speaker 1: went super viral on Twitter. But then Ryan was like,

1013
00:56:22,760 --> 00:56:25,160
Speaker 1: what the hell podcast is this? Even like there wasn't

1014
00:56:25,160 --> 00:56:27,239
Speaker 1: a watermark or any kind of branding with like a

1015
00:56:27,239 --> 00:56:29,920
Speaker 1: show name on it and everything. If you were publishing

1016
00:56:30,000 --> 00:56:32,319
Speaker 1: a podcast clip, you would probably put the name of

1017
00:56:32,320 --> 00:56:34,400
Speaker 1: the podcast that you wanted people to listen to on

1018
00:56:34,440 --> 00:56:36,759
Speaker 1: that clip. It didn't have that. And it turns out

1019
00:56:36,800 --> 00:56:39,680
Speaker 1: this woman just as a content creator who was making

1020
00:56:39,800 --> 00:56:42,320
Speaker 1: this as a way to promote her only fans, which

1021
00:56:42,400 --> 00:56:44,399
Speaker 1: I don't have many a problem with, Like good for her.

1022
00:56:44,760 --> 00:56:48,239
Speaker 1: But Ryan connects this to a darker trend in kind

1023
00:56:48,280 --> 00:56:52,360
Speaker 1: of the overlap of podcasting and marketing where they have

1024
00:56:52,560 --> 00:56:55,000
Speaker 1: this thing that I've definitely seen where it will be

1025
00:56:55,120 --> 00:56:58,600
Speaker 1: like a pod a real podcast, where part of the

1026
00:56:58,600 --> 00:57:01,520
Speaker 1: way that they are marketing their podcas is making these

1027
00:57:01,719 --> 00:57:06,520
Speaker 1: short viral clips of them interviewing is too strong, really

1028
00:57:06,640 --> 00:57:08,960
Speaker 1: just like humiliating a woman on the podcast, Like the

1029
00:57:09,000 --> 00:57:11,719
Speaker 1: podcast whatever is really known for this, and Fresh and

1030
00:57:11,760 --> 00:57:13,799
Speaker 1: Fit was really known for this, where they would have

1031
00:57:13,880 --> 00:57:18,120
Speaker 1: they would make these very short videos of them like

1032
00:57:18,480 --> 00:57:20,880
Speaker 1: humiliating a woman who has gone on the podcast, and

1033
00:57:20,880 --> 00:57:23,520
Speaker 1: then that video would go viral. He writes, there's an

1034
00:57:23,680 --> 00:57:28,160
Speaker 1: entire universe of post Andrew Tait sexuality and relationship podcasts

1035
00:57:28,280 --> 00:57:30,720
Speaker 1: that put young women in front of microphones, ask them

1036
00:57:30,720 --> 00:57:33,440
Speaker 1: outrageous questions and turn it into viral clips and then

1037
00:57:33,520 --> 00:57:36,880
Speaker 1: let audiences tear them apart. Some of these podcasts even

1038
00:57:36,920 --> 00:57:41,680
Speaker 1: have like casting calls on their websites to find new guests.

1039
00:57:42,400 --> 00:57:47,240
Speaker 1: I hate this. So maybe making fake podcasts to hawk

1040
00:57:47,560 --> 00:57:52,680
Speaker 1: items is one thing, But this dynamic where microphone plus

1041
00:57:52,680 --> 00:57:59,720
Speaker 1: misogyny equals authority equals profit, that dynamic is a little

1042
00:57:59,720 --> 00:58:00,560
Speaker 1: bit more toxic.

1043
00:58:00,920 --> 00:58:03,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a lot going on there. It was this

1044
00:58:03,560 --> 00:58:06,400
Speaker 2: was just kind of like a sort of weird, funny

1045
00:58:06,440 --> 00:58:08,680
Speaker 2: story until it took that dark turn at the end.

1046
00:58:09,200 --> 00:58:12,200
Speaker 1: I think that the fact that podcasters like Fresh and

1047
00:58:12,240 --> 00:58:14,840
Speaker 1: Fit and Andrew Tate that they know that this kind

1048
00:58:14,920 --> 00:58:18,720
Speaker 1: of thing does go viral on social media. It just

1049
00:58:18,760 --> 00:58:22,439
Speaker 1: really is about the fact that massogyny and massage noir

1050
00:58:22,600 --> 00:58:24,960
Speaker 1: and all of that will always find a welcome home

1051
00:58:25,000 --> 00:58:26,880
Speaker 1: on the Internet. Like, I think this is not a bug.

1052
00:58:26,920 --> 00:58:28,920
Speaker 1: It's a feature of the internet landscape that we have

1053
00:58:29,120 --> 00:58:32,120
Speaker 1: where a video where a man in front of a

1054
00:58:32,160 --> 00:58:35,560
Speaker 1: microphone is humiliating a woman that will always find an audience,

1055
00:58:35,600 --> 00:58:38,479
Speaker 1: and I think it is. I wanted to talk about

1056
00:58:38,480 --> 00:58:40,880
Speaker 1: this as sort of like a funny, weird thing, but

1057
00:58:41,000 --> 00:58:43,880
Speaker 1: it does. It does connect back to that very real

1058
00:58:44,040 --> 00:58:49,600
Speaker 1: dynamic where massage, noir and massogyny will always be profitable online,

1059
00:58:49,640 --> 00:58:52,280
Speaker 1: which is why we need to have a better Internet

1060
00:58:52,360 --> 00:58:53,920
Speaker 1: landscape that doesn't allow for that.

1061
00:58:54,200 --> 00:58:57,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, if only meta would start excluding that kind of

1062
00:58:57,840 --> 00:59:01,640
Speaker 2: content rather than political exactly.

1063
00:59:02,280 --> 00:59:04,680
Speaker 1: Well, Mike, thank you so much for being here.

1064
00:59:05,000 --> 00:59:07,600
Speaker 2: Bridget, thanks for having me. I hope you have a

1065
00:59:07,640 --> 00:59:10,040
Speaker 2: safe trip home from Maza Lan and to the.

1066
00:59:09,920 --> 00:59:11,760
Speaker 1: Rest of you, thanks for listening. We will see you

1067
00:59:11,800 --> 00:59:18,040
Speaker 1: on the Internet. If you're looking for ways to support

1068
00:59:18,040 --> 00:59:20,520
Speaker 1: the show, check out our merch store at teangody dot

1069
00:59:20,520 --> 00:59:24,160
Speaker 1: com slash store. Got a story about an interesting thing

1070
00:59:24,160 --> 00:59:26,160
Speaker 1: in tech, or just want to say hi, You can

1071
00:59:26,240 --> 00:59:28,480
Speaker 1: reach us at Hello at tenggody dot com. You can

1072
00:59:28,480 --> 00:59:31,440
Speaker 1: also find transcripts for today's episode at teng Goody dot com.

1073
00:59:31,560 --> 00:59:33,240
Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet was created by

1074
00:59:33,240 --> 00:59:36,600
Speaker 1: me Bridget tod It's a production of iHeartRadio and Unboss Creative,

1075
00:59:37,120 --> 00:59:40,720
Speaker 1: edited by Joey pat Jonathan Strickland is our executive producer.

1076
00:59:41,040 --> 00:59:44,280
Speaker 1: Tari Harrison is our producer and sound engineer. Michael Amado

1077
00:59:44,360 --> 00:59:47,360
Speaker 1: is our contributing producer. I'm your host, Bridget Todd. If

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Speaker 1: you want to help us grow, rate and review us.

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Speaker 3: On Apple Podcasts.

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Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, check out the iHeartRadio app,

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Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts