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Speaker 1: Now here's a highlight from Coast to Coast AM on iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: And welcome back to Coast to Coast George Nori with you.

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Speaker 2: Back with space historian Robert Zimmerman. His website is behind

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Speaker 2: the Black dot com linked up at Coast tocoastam dot com. Robert,

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Speaker 2: what's the update with the Artemis program to get us

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Speaker 2: back to the Moon?

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Speaker 3: I would strongly expect that the NASA components of that,

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Speaker 3: that's the SOLS rocket and the Orion capsule are going

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Speaker 3: to be canceled sometime in the next year. The NASA

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Speaker 3: spend like sixty billion dollars on these thing about it

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Speaker 3: and making it like a half a dozen capsules, and

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Speaker 3: the rockeymond isn't paid something like between twenty five and

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Speaker 3: thirty billion dollars to make a half another capsules. You yeah, right,

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Speaker 3: I mean, when you think about it in those terms,

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Speaker 3: it's absurd. And the same thing with the SLS rocket.

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Speaker 3: The rocket each launch, depending on who you ask, they

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Speaker 3: estimate the cost of each launch is somewhere between one

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Speaker 3: and four billion dollars each launch. And the cumbersome design

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Speaker 3: of the SOLS rocket means you can do launches more

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Speaker 3: than at best, and it's really never going to be

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Speaker 3: this at best once a year, more likely once every

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Speaker 3: two or three years. You want to have a space

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Speaker 3: program a program once again, you can't do it with

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Speaker 3: that kind of turnout. It's just not conceivable. It it's

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Speaker 3: just not fast enough. Right now, SpaceX is developing Starship

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Speaker 3: Super Heavy, which is more capable than SLS, is going

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Speaker 3: to cost a tenth of the money, I mean, maybe

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Speaker 3: more than that. Like we're talking about only a few

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Speaker 3: million dollars a launch, three usable million, not billion. And

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Speaker 3: it's designed to be manned. It is going to be

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Speaker 3: used as the lunar lander when the NASA eventually gets

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Speaker 3: to the and so this is definitely the future. And

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Speaker 3: I really do expect that the problems in the SLS

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Speaker 3: Orion program in Artomius are significant and were worrisome. NASA

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Speaker 3: is planning to fly the next mission of Artemis on

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Speaker 3: SLS using an Orion capsule with a crew on board,

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Speaker 3: and they want to fly it around the Moon and

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Speaker 3: back to Earth. However, there are serious questions about the

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Speaker 3: heat shield that Orion uses on return to Earth. In

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Speaker 3: the first unmanned flight in twenty two, Ryan came back.

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Speaker 3: He came back seriously damaged it. Boy had been a

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Speaker 3: crew on board, they would not have been earth But

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Speaker 3: the damage was serious with one of my large chunk

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Speaker 3: sections of that heat shield came off. Never seen damage

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Speaker 3: like that before, and there are a lot of reasons why,

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Speaker 3: but NASA has made the decision that the first manned

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Speaker 3: mission with Orion, they're going to use the same heat shield.

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Speaker 3: They're not going to introduce the changes until the next mission.

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Speaker 3: On top of that, the Orion capsule that flew that

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Speaker 3: unmanned mission did not have an environmental system. In other words,

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Speaker 3: there were no people on boards, they didn't bother and

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Speaker 3: stall one. The first time Orion's environmental habitable system to

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Speaker 3: keep people alive is going to be used is on

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Speaker 3: the very first time people fly in Orion. These are

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Speaker 3: the kind of things that FAA does not allow SpaceX

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Speaker 3: to do, and for good reason, and SpaceX agrees you

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Speaker 3: should know what you're doing. And so because of the

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Speaker 3: various issues with the heat shield and with the environmental

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Speaker 3: system and issues with SLS, NASA decided about a month

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Speaker 3: ago to delay that first unmanned that first manned mission

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Speaker 3: around the Moon, delay it from the end of this

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Speaker 3: this year to the spring of twenty six, about a

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Speaker 3: three to four months away. I already said on my

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Speaker 3: website the minute they made that announcement that twenty six

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Speaker 3: launch date is not realistic. It's not going to happen,

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Speaker 3: because it's traditionally this program is they were supposed to

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Speaker 3: be launching by twenty fifteen, establishing a base on the

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Speaker 3: Moon in twenty fifteen. They didn't get their first launch

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Speaker 3: up until twenty two, seven years later, and that's now

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Speaker 3: two years later, three years later, and they still haven't

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Speaker 3: done a second launch. No man mission, it's for sure,

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Speaker 3: and so I really am expecting that Jack eisaman In,

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Speaker 3: Jared Isisamgan who's now in going to be in charge

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Speaker 3: of NASA. He's a private sector guy, a billionaire. He's

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Speaker 3: talked about how he just doesn't like how NASA operates

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Speaker 3: and when it comes to building things. I really think

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Speaker 3: he's going to take a step in and make some force,

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Speaker 3: some major changes in the entire program. This does not

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Speaker 3: mean Artomist will go away, or our goal to go

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Speaker 3: to the Moon will go away, but it will change.

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Speaker 3: I have recommended in essays on my website that NASA

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Speaker 3: stop trying to be China to the Moon. We've already

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Speaker 3: gotten there. We don't have to prove anything. But what

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Speaker 3: we should do is be focused on doing whatever we

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Speaker 3: can to build this aerospace industry in space. Get it

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Speaker 3: as robust as possible, because if you do, and this

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Speaker 3: is where the space stations come in. If you do,

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Speaker 3: then you have the capabilities to do anything you want

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Speaker 3: in the Solar System much more effectively, much more quickly.

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Speaker 3: It might start a little slower, but before you're done,

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Speaker 3: you'll be wiping the floor with the Chinese, the British,

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Speaker 3: everybody else. So that's what I have suggested they do,

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Speaker 3: and I think we'll do some variation there. It's going

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Speaker 3: to be a political decision because canceling sos a lot

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Speaker 3: of money goes to professional districts. I say he won't

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Speaker 3: have a problem because because these private rocket companies, they're

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Speaker 3: sending money to many districts also, and if you get

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Speaker 3: them going, you kind of won't have anything to play about.

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Speaker 2: Companies like SpaceX get their brain power. Did they rob

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Speaker 2: it from NASA?

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Speaker 3: Absolutely not.

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Speaker 1: No.

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Speaker 3: Actually, I would say that almost nobody at SpaceX has

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Speaker 3: come from NASA because NASA teaches the wrong lessons. It

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Speaker 3: teaches process has to be followed. It teaches you don't

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Speaker 3: do you don't build, fly fail, build again, fly fail,

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Speaker 3: build again. You know, actually fly rockets and see how

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Speaker 3: they work and fix it. NASA follows the philosophy whereby

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Speaker 3: you have to design it so well that it might

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Speaker 3: take a decade to design it. But when you fly,

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Speaker 3: you don't need many test missions. You've done it all

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Speaker 3: on the computer. Not only do I think that approach

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Speaker 3: is bad because you really never computer can never cover

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Speaker 3: you in every aspect. It's much slower and much more expensive.

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Speaker 3: And that way of working is not something that SpaceX

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Speaker 3: wants or any of these private companies. What they instead

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Speaker 3: want is young people coming out of colleges who have

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Speaker 3: had who in college were given the chance to play

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Speaker 3: with engineering, to cut metal, to build things, build satellites,

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Speaker 3: small satellites, build engines, a variety of things, just to

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Speaker 3: learn how that's done and then get into the roll

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Speaker 3: up in their shoulders and actually build things for these companies.

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Speaker 3: Now a NASA has provided a thing relatively few people

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Speaker 3: to these companies, and I think that's generally been a

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Speaker 3: good thing.

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Speaker 2: But with all the experience that the NASA engineers had

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Speaker 2: over the years, getting to the moon and vice versa

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Speaker 2: and everything else. We didn't tap into that.

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Speaker 3: He's probably George. Let's put some time on this. The

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Speaker 3: engineers that got us to the moon and landed in

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Speaker 3: the nineteen sixties, they're all gone. They're all retired, passed on.

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Speaker 3: Many of them were in private companies like Grummin, which

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Speaker 3: is no longer in business and you know, was absorbed

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Speaker 3: by other companies. The companies that exist now that used

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Speaker 3: to be the big space companies that did all that

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Speaker 3: stuff are companies like boe I don't need to talk

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Speaker 3: at great length about the problem that Boeing has right now.

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Speaker 3: They have been unable to get anything accomplished with Starline

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Speaker 3: and their manned capsule. It's just disgraceful the kind of

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Speaker 3: mistakes they have made. And so I think that that

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Speaker 3: kind of talent isn't there. One of the things SpaceX

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Speaker 3: has done and all these startups is it's tapped into

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Speaker 3: the young generation. There's a story, for example what I covered.

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Speaker 3: SpaceX wanted to get some new software people who's developing

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Speaker 3: reusability and landing. They went to a game conference, a

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Speaker 3: video game conference where there's a lot of software people

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Speaker 3: and it asked anyone who is working on space. We've

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Speaker 3: got some software needs to be written, and you guys

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Speaker 3: can come at this with a different approach and you

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Speaker 3: know how to write software. And they got some people

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Speaker 3: from that. Those they look in different places, and of

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Speaker 3: course everyone would like to work in space, and you

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Speaker 3: know SpaceX is the top, so they get the people.

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Speaker 3: No NASA. And when I give talks to colleges, I

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Speaker 3: can repeatedly tell them why of the students there don't

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Speaker 3: get a job at NASA, You're going to be in

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Speaker 3: a dead end. Get jobs in these private companies. You'll

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Speaker 3: cut metal, you'll build things, you'll fly things, you'll have

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Speaker 3: a lot more fun, and you'll have a career in space.

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Speaker 3: Think about sols once again. At Orion, they've been building

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Speaker 3: that damn rocket and capsule now for twenty years and

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Speaker 3: it's ugly flown. If you're an engineer, you spent your

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Speaker 3: whole career and you're now retiring in university. So the

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Speaker 3: thing take off, the people on board, that's not satisfactory.

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Speaker 3: So yeah, I NASA what we have this. Unfortunately, there's

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Speaker 3: still a cultural attitude that NASA is the top, the one,

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Speaker 3: the gray, they're the ones to talk to. They are not.

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Speaker 3: And the last thing that should be happening is depending

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Speaker 3: on NASA to engineer anything, build anything, or design anything.

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Speaker 3: Where NASA should be doing, which is now doing mostly

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Speaker 3: is if it wants to get a lure land to

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Speaker 3: science instruments on the Moon, it hires a private company

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Speaker 3: to do it, like Blue Ghosts from Fireflight. It's gonna

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Speaker 3: fly and we got two. They put the NASA instruments

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Speaker 3: on it. NASA gets to do the research. But this

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Speaker 3: is a private company that has its Luna land and

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Speaker 3: it's making money on it because it it rented some

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Speaker 3: of the payload space to this Japanese private Luna landa

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Speaker 3: company it can so that they can fly as well.

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Speaker 3: And so we're gonna have two landers and they're privately

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Speaker 3: so they're privately owned. And so yeah, NASA is NASA

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Speaker 3: is not the agency it was in the nineteen sixties

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Speaker 3: and it hasn't been for probably five decades.

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Speaker 2: What's going on with missions to Mars?

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Speaker 3: All right? So we have two rovers on Mars right

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Speaker 3: now that are functioning, Curiosity and Perseverance. I cover them

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Speaker 3: on a regular basis because especially Curiosity, it is roaming

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Speaker 3: amid mountains and we've never had a rover really roving

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Speaker 3: about mid mountains on a mountain side. So the views

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Speaker 3: of spectacular and I always approached this from a first

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Speaker 3: point of view. I think my readers will prefer that

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Speaker 3: as well, you know, so I post pictures to try

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Speaker 3: to get a sense of that Curiosity's been there for

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Speaker 3: more than a more than a decade and it's still

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Speaker 3: functioning and working well. It's climbing mount shop in Gale

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Speaker 3: Crater and it's doing really good work, and it's once

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Speaker 3: again the views of spectacular the other over perseverance, it

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Speaker 3: has finally left the crater to zero that it landed within.

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Speaker 3: It landed in zero crater because there was this delta

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Speaker 3: that had flown in through a gap in the Creator's

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Speaker 3: rim that filled part of the crater floor, and it

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Speaker 3: was very intriguing to look at from orbite images. While

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Speaker 3: they spent the last two or three years since landing

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Speaker 3: exploring that delta and the rim of the crater. They've

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Speaker 3: now climbed the rim and they've climbed down onto the

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Speaker 3: other side and they're moving west into a region of

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Speaker 3: more that is known to have a great deal of

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Speaker 3: minerals of potential mining value and they're going to be

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Speaker 3: exploring that area at length. That the area west of

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Speaker 3: zero Crator is a very high potential mining region and

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Speaker 3: Pervance is going to explore that over the next few years.

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Speaker 2: It's exciting, though, isn't it.

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Speaker 3: Oh gosh? You know, when I look at pictures coming

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Speaker 3: back from Curiosity and I post them, I don't see

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Speaker 3: other websites doing this that cover space, and I'm surprised.

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Speaker 3: You know, on almost a weekly basis, I can post

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Speaker 3: a spectacular image showing the barren, alien environment and landscape

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Speaker 3: of Mars and from the positions that we've never had

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Speaker 3: spacecraft in before. You know, all the early rovers landed

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Speaker 3: in very flat, safe places, so the views were not

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Speaker 3: particularly interesting. Curiosity and Perseverance are in are in very

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Speaker 3: interesting terrain, producing very cool visuals. So I posted because yes,

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Speaker 3: it's exciting. It's it's science fiction but real, you know.

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Speaker 3: And I am surprised that I seem to be the

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Speaker 3: only one in the space business who does this on

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Speaker 3: a regular basis. But I do, and it's really fun

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Speaker 3: when I do it. It's it's like the last one

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Speaker 3: for Carrio. People go to my website and do a

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Speaker 3: search for curiosity. You'll see a lot of those pictures.

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Speaker 3: The last one was looking out on their future route

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Speaker 3: along the side of the mountain. That's contoying along the

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Speaker 3: side of the mountain right now, and in the distance

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Speaker 3: you could see, of course, the rim of the crater

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Speaker 3: twenty thirty miles away in the age and the floor

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Speaker 3: of the crater, and they're like two thousand feet up

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Speaker 3: from the floor right now, So up there they're climbing.

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Speaker 2: Are we going to continue to land on asteroids?

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Speaker 3: Robert, Well, there are no, there are no. Let mean

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Speaker 3: we phrase that we have right now one mission heading

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Speaker 3: towards the potentially dangerous asteroid Apolfice. That's the Osiris Rex

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Speaker 3: mission renamed Osias apex. It it went to Benu, it

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Speaker 3: got samples, it delivered defense of samples to Earth, and

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Speaker 3: then they repurposed it to go to to Apolfas now

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Speaker 3: is potentially dangerous. It will make a close fly by

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Speaker 3: the Earth in twenty nine. It's not expected to be

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Speaker 3: able to hit the Earth for at least two hundred

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Speaker 3: more years, if not many more years after that. Is so,

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Speaker 3: the dangerous is slim.

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Speaker 1: Listen to more Coast to Coast am every weeknight at

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Speaker 1: one am Eastern and go to Coast to coastam dot

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