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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Bloomberg Penl podcast. I'm Paul swing you

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Speaker 1: along with my co host Lisa Brahma Wicks. Each day

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Speaker 1: we bring you the most noteworthy and useful interviews for

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Speaker 1: you and your money. Whether at the grocery store or

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Speaker 1: the trading floor. Find a Bloomberg Penl podcast on Apple

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Speaker 1: podcast or wherever you listen to podcasts, as well as

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Speaker 1: at Bloomberg dot com. Let's take a look at the

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Speaker 1: currency markets. Sterling down one percent today, uh lois and

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Speaker 1: concerns about a hard Brexit. What does it mean for

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Speaker 1: Sterling and other currencies around the world. We welcome our

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Speaker 1: next guest, Dr wind Thin, Global head of Currency Strategy

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Speaker 1: of Brown Brothers Harriman. Uh he's on the phone with this,

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Speaker 1: Dr Thin, thanks so much for joining us. First, just

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Speaker 1: want to get your thoughts on Sterling here. Where do

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Speaker 1: you think this thing goes given what appears to be

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Speaker 1: increasing odds for a hard Brexit. Ali, first of all,

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Speaker 1: thanks for having me on. So is a pleasure. Look,

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Speaker 1: we're getting the first signs out of the new worst

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Speaker 1: Johnson government, and to me, the signs are not good.

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Speaker 1: That it's a lot of tough talk. He's saying October

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Speaker 1: thirty one, Do or die is so on and so on,

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Speaker 1: And you know they're talking about um doing away with

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Speaker 1: the Irish backstop, but that's a deal breaker for the

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Speaker 1: EU is not gonna go agree to that. So to me,

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Speaker 1: the u K is negotiating from position of weakness. And

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Speaker 1: so these threats that it's gonna be a heartbreakting PLoud?

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Speaker 1: Is it they really meaningless? Um that the EU has

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Speaker 1: already said, Uh, it's pretty much non negotiable at this point. Um.

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Speaker 1: So to me, I think markets coming to grips with Yes,

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Speaker 1: the heartbreaks, it is becoming more and more likely. So

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Speaker 1: what's the downside, Like, what's going to be the floor

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Speaker 1: here for these fears? I'm sorry with the floor? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: So how low can we go for sterling? Oh boy, well,

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Speaker 1: look that's a tough question. I take this take things.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's sort of a weak or a month

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Speaker 1: at a time. That's we think the March low March

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Speaker 1: two thousand seventeen low from on ten's next big target.

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Speaker 1: Let's get there and see what happens. You know, you

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Speaker 1: have some people out there calling with pair dy with dollars.

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Speaker 1: I think that's getting a little far ahead of itself.

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Speaker 1: But look, the only thing I will say is that

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Speaker 1: that the Bank of England did a scenario analysis last fall.

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Speaker 1: Was accused of being a scaremongering, but um, you know

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Speaker 1: that they called for I think somewhere between ten drop

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Speaker 1: and sterling eight percent contraction in GDP in the case

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Speaker 1: of heart Brexit. Look, it's just one scenario, but you know,

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Speaker 1: I think it's sort of any one's guess is as

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Speaker 1: good as anyone others. But let me just say this

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Speaker 1: that Sterling would be would be definitely sold on on

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Speaker 1: a heart brexit. So dr Sin. We have the FED

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Speaker 1: going to announce their decision on Wednesday, We've got the

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Speaker 1: Bank of England, the Bank of Japan also weighing in

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Speaker 1: over the near term. Given that this we're getting, this

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Speaker 1: global reduction in rates, is now the time to be

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Speaker 1: taking a harder look at emerging markets? Well, I've been

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Speaker 1: very cost on emerging markets for most this year, you know,

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Speaker 1: for variety of reasons. So to me, you know, the

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Speaker 1: liquidit story is obviously very positive for e m Um.

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Speaker 1: You know, the zero rates most the world getting lower,

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Speaker 1: the fedback on the cutting bandwagon, um, and so that

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Speaker 1: gives you a national bid for for instance, for emerging

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Speaker 1: market fixed income, you know they're one of the highest

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Speaker 1: yielding assets UM, but if you look at the currency

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Speaker 1: and equity markets, that liquidity story just isn't enough. The

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Speaker 1: global growth stories what's lacking. We've got an ongoing trade

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Speaker 1: war between US and China that's really killing the regional

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Speaker 1: Asian exporters Korea, Taiwan, Malaysia, etcetera. UM, emerging market equities

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Speaker 1: that have underperformed the developed market equities this year. UM.

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Speaker 1: And that's again we're missing a global growth stories. I

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Speaker 1: AM have just recently cut its global growth forecast again

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Speaker 1: warning about the impact of the global trade wars. So

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Speaker 1: you know it to me E MS a mixed bag.

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Speaker 1: I would say fixed income it looks positive from the

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Speaker 1: equity story, but equities and fixed in I'm sorry, and

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Speaker 1: FX are are I think are negative from the global

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Speaker 1: growth story. Here's what I truly don't get, and that's

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Speaker 1: sort of what the dollar is gonna do. So if

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Speaker 1: we just pretend that we get what the market seems

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Speaker 1: to expect point cut from the Fed on Wednesday, maybe

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Speaker 1: sort of, and then we're gonna wait and see how

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Speaker 1: the data pans out. What happens to the dollar. Un

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Speaker 1: that's a good point. Look the to me, I think

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Speaker 1: the person I think the FEDS kind of painting itself

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Speaker 1: from the corner. If you if you close your eyes

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Speaker 1: and said, okay, you told me where the economy is going,

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Speaker 1: with the John's report, where the retail sales are going,

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Speaker 1: and you kind of ignored everything what the FED has

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Speaker 1: been saying, you would say, well, what, of course we're not.

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Speaker 1: We're not cutting race. But the FED has pants stuff

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Speaker 1: in the corner. It tilted device just in the US

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Speaker 1: data was getting better. So to me, it's it's sort

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Speaker 1: of promised this point. But I agree with what your

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Speaker 1: assessment is that we're inna wait and see period. I

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Speaker 1: don't think the FED would be wise to precommit to

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Speaker 1: any further easing given how strong the economy looks right now.

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Speaker 1: We're getting two percent growth to point one percent growth

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Speaker 1: in Q two. That's been prety much trend growth um

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Speaker 1: for the US UM. So the markets I think are

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Speaker 1: overestimating the Fed's capacity of the cut rates. If you

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Speaker 1: look the January FED funds contract, it's still implying nearly

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Speaker 1: three cuts this year, and given what's going on coming,

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Speaker 1: I just don't think that's gonna happen. So once the

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Speaker 1: hopefully the markets recalibrate the FED easy expectations, that should

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Speaker 1: be the next leg higher for the dollar. I remained

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Speaker 1: dollarish just on the underlying strength of the US economy

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Speaker 1: uh and sort of my outlook for FED policy as

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Speaker 1: a result, Dr Winton, thank you so much for joining us.

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Speaker 1: As always. Dr Thani is a global head of currency

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Speaker 1: strategy for Brown Brothers Harriman here in New York. Here's

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Speaker 1: a news flash for you. I may buy an iPhone.

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Speaker 1: I have an iPhone five s E. You know how

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Speaker 1: small that phone is. I may buy one, and Apple

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Speaker 1: definitely wants me to. The company reporting after the closing

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Speaker 1: bell tomorrow expected to make about fifty three billion dollars

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Speaker 1: in sales. Joining US now is Dan, I was Managing

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Speaker 1: director Equity Research at Wedbush Securities. Was a twelve month

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Speaker 1: price target of two thirty five and an outperform rating.

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Speaker 1: Dan no doubt Apple is going to make a lot

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Speaker 1: of money. Is it going to be enough? Look? I

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Speaker 1: think this is just another proved me period for Cook

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Speaker 1: and Cupertino to really show that iPhone demand is stable,

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Speaker 1: to slightly improve and going to his next cycle, especially China,

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Speaker 1: China of all iPhone upgrades. That's going to be the

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Speaker 1: key focus this quarter. We continue think it's gonna be

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Speaker 1: a ho home quarter. That's another step in the right direction. So, Dan,

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Speaker 1: I think if you know, if you're an Apple shareholder today,

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Speaker 1: you have to feel pretty confident that this company can

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Speaker 1: make the big, big pivot from being an iPhone story

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Speaker 1: to being one of services, subscription fees and things like that. Um,

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Speaker 1: how confident are you that this company can make that

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Speaker 1: that pivot? Look, we're confident, and ultimately so the core

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Speaker 1: of our both thesis on the name because iPhones take

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Speaker 1: a step back, three million iPhones in the window of

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Speaker 1: an upgrade opportunity over the next twelve eight months. But

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Speaker 1: the monetation of services, that's the golden goose, and today

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Speaker 1: it's only fiftcent penetrated. And in our opinion four hundred

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Speaker 1: billions to four and fifty billion of the valuation of Apple.

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Speaker 1: Is the services business well fair? But that's not going

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Speaker 1: to be like this quarter or the next quarter, right,

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Speaker 1: So I feel like we've been waiting for the big

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Speaker 1: replacement cycle for a long time. Is it going to happen?

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Speaker 1: Is it going to happen? This year. Is it going

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Speaker 1: to happen with the shift of five G, Like, what's

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Speaker 1: going to be the actual trigger for the volume of

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Speaker 1: phones that we're gonna have to see Apple Cell? Sure,

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Speaker 1: it's a great question. I think five G is going

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Speaker 1: to be the silver bullet catalyst in terms of the

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Speaker 1: core upgrade opportunity. But in between now and then, I

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Speaker 1: think you'll see stable hundred eighty million to two indred

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Speaker 1: million type of iPhone unit years. And if they're able

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Speaker 1: to do that with services being amid to high team grower,

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Speaker 1: this is a stock that continues to get rerated in

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Speaker 1: our opinion, makes new highs. And that's why right now

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Speaker 1: many yelling fire in a crowded theater on Apple, whereas

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Speaker 1: the stock that continues to grind higher, I think to

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Speaker 1: China overhang has been a twenty impact in the stock.

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Speaker 1: So Dan just recently uh app, I think last week

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Speaker 1: actually Apple bought Intel's or announced they're gonna buy Apple's

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Speaker 1: Intel's phone business. What's the strategy behind that acquisition? That's

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Speaker 1: all about five G. That's them doubling down on five G.

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Speaker 1: Intel back was against the wall in terms of ever

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Speaker 1: since the Apple qual Calm truth, Intel that business was

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Speaker 1: basically for sale. They got on the cheap and this

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Speaker 1: is really cook an Apple doubling down on five G

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Speaker 1: going into this next massive cycle. In our opinion, it

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Speaker 1: was a smart acquisition and ultimately was a cheap price.

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Speaker 1: So what do you think it's gonna So how we

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Speaker 1: set up because usually, like the typical play was Apple's

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Speaker 1: going to guide low and then surprise hi and you

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Speaker 1: get that nice boot. That's no longer really the playbook

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Speaker 1: into Apple earnings. So what can we expect when the

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Speaker 1: stock is already treating it to nine to ten? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think this setup is an inline quarter with a

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Speaker 1: beat on services. Really what the street needs. The big

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Speaker 1: focus will be about the September quarter guidance and just quote,

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Speaker 1: we'll call it qualitatively how the company is thinking about

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Speaker 1: iPhone demand going into the next year. But the biggest

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Speaker 1: number is gonna be China. You need to see the

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Speaker 1: China iPhone number. We stabilize to show some sort of

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Speaker 1: slight uptick relative to a you know, we'll quote an

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Speaker 1: improving decline. That's really the key because ultimately Apple stock

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Speaker 1: is going to go up and down with China of

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Speaker 1: iPhone units. And I think there's many out there that

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Speaker 1: I think the anti Apple, call it pro Huaweian China

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Speaker 1: nationalist movement had been a huge negative on iPhone styles,

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Speaker 1: and that's gonna be key for them to show that

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Speaker 1: that's not the case. So Dan, as a reformed and

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Speaker 1: rehabilitating media analysts here, I've often said that exactly. I've

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Speaker 1: often said that, you know, as Apple pivots to more

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Speaker 1: of a services company, they should really think about the

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Speaker 1: content business. And I know they've dipped their toe in

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Speaker 1: the past in terms of creating some content, acquiring some content,

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Speaker 1: but really jumping into the deep end. And I look

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Speaker 1: on the balance sheet with billion dollars in cash, do

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Speaker 1: you think envision over the next several years that we

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Speaker 1: might see Apple make a big content acquisition somewhere along

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Speaker 1: the line. Yeah, that's really been our call. Our call

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Speaker 1: is for coments typically been shy of M and A

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Speaker 1: outside of Beats over the last five years, that they're

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Speaker 1: going to have to signfically acquiring content. I think they

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Speaker 1: do go into deep end the pool on a larger

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Speaker 1: content acquisition. You know, we've talked about meter studios like

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Speaker 1: MGM showny four in terms of ones that can look

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Speaker 1: at I also think it's important when you look at

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Speaker 1: the Intel that was an acquisition a billion dollars. I

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Speaker 1: think it just shows that you're starting to see applicat

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Speaker 1: a lot more equissive. I think contents next step that's

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Speaker 1: key to putting fuel in that content engine on the

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Speaker 1: services side, with that launch coming up later this fall.

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Speaker 1: Is that really Apple's m O I mean, and something

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Speaker 1: I get because they're trying to vertically integrate their business,

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Speaker 1: so they just do it themselves rather than like outsource,

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Speaker 1: if that makes sense. But content is just such a

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Speaker 1: cash burn, I mean, is that really something that they're

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Speaker 1: equipped to get into. That's probably one of the biggest

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Speaker 1: debates in the name because ultimately on the services side,

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Speaker 1: they even lad to the game versus Election, Netflix, Disney

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Speaker 1: and you know it's called streaming vendors. But that is

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Speaker 1: really what they need to further monetize, and that's really

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Speaker 1: going to be a proved me situation for Apple on

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Speaker 1: the content side. But I also view it just step

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Speaker 1: away from content, it's also as a distribution. If you

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Speaker 1: think about what they're really trying to do now with

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Speaker 1: this next services pieces, distribution monetization put further fence around

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Speaker 1: the one point four billion active iOS devices to date.

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Speaker 1: That's the key for Apple and that continues to be

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Speaker 1: the key of the evaluation. It's the install basis to

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Speaker 1: molonization the services. No doubt that's approved me, especially on

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Speaker 1: the streaming side as that continued to be a crowded space.

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Speaker 1: Uh Dan. Cash on the balance that I mentioned about

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Speaker 1: two five billion UM, what do you expect them to do?

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Speaker 1: I'm looking at the dividend yields about one point five percent.

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Speaker 1: What do you expect them to do with that cash?

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Speaker 1: Are they gonna give it back to shareholders perhaps in

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Speaker 1: a more aggressive way, Well, they've probably about being cash

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Speaker 1: on neutral where they're basically given that away through whether

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Speaker 1: it's bad backs for dividends. I think dividends are going

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Speaker 1: to keep that one in half, and I think there's

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Speaker 1: been pressure for them maybe to go up there a

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Speaker 1: quote above two bread and keeping it in the short

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Speaker 1: of suitets about one and a half percent divid and

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Speaker 1: yields key. I think by backs is ultimately going to continue,

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Speaker 1: and ultimately it's really gonna be M and A that's

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Speaker 1: gonna be the trifactor strategy. And I also do think

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Speaker 1: investors have started to get a bit frustrated because the

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Speaker 1: buy back strategy and dividends. It's obviously great for income

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Speaker 1: investors and David investors in any way to see it,

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Speaker 1: but you really want to drive growth here, and when

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Speaker 1: you look at M and A, that's the key. And

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Speaker 1: you know, work at Microsoft. Microsoft's company for many years

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Speaker 1: didn't do M and A. Then they started to get

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Speaker 1: aggressive and Alton, when you look at Lincoln and some

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Speaker 1: of the others, there have been some of the genius

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Speaker 1: acquisitions that Nadella has pulled off. Dana, I have thank

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Speaker 1: you so much for joining us once again. Dan is

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Speaker 1: a managing director equity research for What Bush Securities. Joining

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Speaker 1: us on the phone from New York City taking a

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Speaker 1: look at Apple. Time to check in with Bloomberg Opinion.

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Speaker 1: We're joined by Bloomberg Opinion columnist Max Neeson. Max covers biotech,

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Speaker 1: farmer and healthcare for Bloomberg Opinion. He joins us live

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Speaker 1: in our Bloomberg eleven three oh studios. So, Max, we've

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Speaker 1: got another healthcare deal here, give us the latest. Yeah. Absolutely,

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Speaker 1: So this is a deal that combined ends Viser's legacy

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Speaker 1: unit basically all of its drugs that have lost patent

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Speaker 1: production or facing generic competition along with with some other

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Speaker 1: chunks of its business and are and it's kind of

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Speaker 1: innovative novel branded drugs with with Mylin, which isn't a

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Speaker 1: similar business. It makes generics, it makes biosimilar as it

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Speaker 1: has an OTC business as well, And it's basically a

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Speaker 1: move to to kind of separate Viser's higher margin, more

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Speaker 1: rapidly growing business from something that was increasingly becoming a

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Speaker 1: drag on the company and from Mylin. It's an opportunity

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Speaker 1: to kind of turn the page on on four years

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Speaker 1: of kind of continued share price declines, lots of scandals

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Speaker 1: and overexposure to put's been a really tricky U S

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Speaker 1: generic market. This is a bit of a broader business.

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Speaker 1: So for the milind Visor tie up, though, isn't the

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Speaker 1: Myland management still going to be like running the whole

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Speaker 1: show or running the board at least? And isn't that

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Speaker 1: bad because don't we like don't like them? I mean

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Speaker 1: a lot of people don't. But it's they're going to

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Speaker 1: be a majority of the board still the chairman, but

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Speaker 1: but the CEO is going to be a long time

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Speaker 1: fiser fed and also they're they're redomiciling back to the

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Speaker 1: US away from from the Netherlands, where they had kind

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Speaker 1: of this complex and strange corporate governance structure that a

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Speaker 1: lot of people didn't like. So they won't be quite

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Speaker 1: as entrenched. And I think the fact that you know, Fiser,

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Speaker 1: a Fiser executive at the end of the day, is

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Speaker 1: going to be someone leading the company and then CEO,

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Speaker 1: how their brush who has been kind of the nexus

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Speaker 1: of a lot of the controversy is moving on. I

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Speaker 1: think there's a perception that that Fiser is is going

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Speaker 1: to be staring to ship to a certain extent. It's

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Speaker 1: also kind of a bigger chuck at the assets also,

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Speaker 1: So I was reading the Bloomberg intelligence note on this

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Speaker 1: deal and I didn't even know there was this subsector

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Speaker 1: of healthcare, the specialty generic drug sector. So generic doesn't

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Speaker 1: sound good to me. Specialty sounds pretty good to me.

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Speaker 1: So specialty generic is this a market that's even growing

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Speaker 1: or is this just it's not really growing. I just

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Speaker 1: gotta get scale and ring as many costs out as

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Speaker 1: I can. So, Uh, the generic side, it's been basically

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Speaker 1: in free fall for the past few years, just a

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Speaker 1: lot of pricing pressure, kind of these buying consortiums of

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Speaker 1: different people in the healthcare industry kind of combining to

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Speaker 1: to kind of force these these prices. Ever downward specialty

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Speaker 1: there's a little bit more room. You know, different people

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Speaker 1: have a different uh definition of that market, whether it's

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Speaker 1: just particularly complicated generics or or things that are still

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Speaker 1: have you know, a brand, but do face potential generic competition,

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Speaker 1: So that market there's a little more potential for growth.

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Speaker 1: The degree to which this organization is going to this

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Speaker 1: new company is gonna be able to grow as is

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Speaker 1: kind of the big swing factor for its valuation. It's

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Speaker 1: a lot of old drugs from Fiser that are going

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Speaker 1: to decline, but those will kind of have to be

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Speaker 1: encountered by by new generic products, by biosimilars, and by

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Speaker 1: basically just doing everything you can to prop up those

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Speaker 1: sales as long as possible. So at the same time, though,

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Speaker 1: they're gonna have a bazillion dollars in debt, right like

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Speaker 1: dolls in debt, I mean, so that's seams rough if

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Speaker 1: you're an our shareholder of this new company. It definitely

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Speaker 1: does for for Milan actually, which which kind of this

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Speaker 1: says a lot about the position there, and they will

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Speaker 1: be less levered after this, after this steal just because

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Speaker 1: you're you're adding a lot of revenue and EBITDA from

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Speaker 1: from Fiser. Uh, you know, it is a lot of debt.

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Speaker 1: But the nice thing about the specialty to Neeric business

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Speaker 1: it does generate a ton of cash, which is why

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Speaker 1: Fiser was able to attack on some debt and and

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Speaker 1: take twelve billion dollars back out of this steel for

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Speaker 1: for the continuing innovative Fiser company. So it is a

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Speaker 1: lot of debt, but they're still going to be able

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Speaker 1: to pay it down and pay a dividend. It's it's

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Speaker 1: uh not as exciting, but it is highly cash generative.

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Speaker 1: So what does Fiser do now that's a two thirty

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Speaker 1: five billion dollar market cap company. What's the growth story here?

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Speaker 1: It's substantially better than it was prior to uh this

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Speaker 1: when the steel was announced. Now it can kind of

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Speaker 1: focus on medicines that have a longer pack life, have

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Speaker 1: more room to kind of grow and expand as opposed

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Speaker 1: to being saddled with you know, just this year alone Lyrica.

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Speaker 1: It's a pain drug. I'm sure you've seen the ads

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Speaker 1: for it all over the place. That that just lost

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Speaker 1: that just is facing a generic launch. So that's gonna

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Speaker 1: cost them billions of dollars in sales over the next

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Speaker 1: several years and basically wipe out and if they've kept

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Speaker 1: it around, wipe out much of the benefit from from

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Speaker 1: what is going well from any new launches. So this

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Speaker 1: will be a much better looking business from a growth

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Speaker 1: perspective and also a more focused one. It can instead

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Speaker 1: of kind of managing this this beheamoth of of a

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Speaker 1: diversified business. It continues to to narrow the focus on

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Speaker 1: on just putting out new medicines that that will have

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Speaker 1: an opportunity to expand. So what other big companies quickly

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Speaker 1: need to be sold off? Jan j trimmed down. So,

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Speaker 1: Jane J. I think if there's one that's never going

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Speaker 1: to do it, they're the one. They They've they've kind

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Speaker 1: of always made the case that, you know, origin our

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Speaker 1: business works better, we like the stability of having another unit.

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Speaker 1: But I think there's no far of a business out

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Speaker 1: there that won't consider trying to kind of separate out

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Speaker 1: some of their their older medicines, because that really does

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Speaker 1: create a lot of trouble, creates a lot of volatility

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Speaker 1: where you're kind of constantly fighting the battle between new

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Speaker 1: and old medicines. Max Nison, thanks so much. Bloomberg Opinion

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Speaker 1: Columns Max Nis and you can read more on this

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Speaker 1: and other stories from Bloomberg Opinion at Bloomberg dot com,

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Speaker 1: slash Opinion and on the Terminal by typing O P

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Speaker 1: I n Go. Yeah, we want to take a look

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Speaker 1: at the commercial real estate business. We're seeing signs that

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Speaker 1: in certain parts of the country, UH might be softening

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Speaker 1: a little bit. To get the latest, we turned to

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Speaker 1: Tarrell Gates. Tarrell's the chief executive officer of Vertus real

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Speaker 1: Estate Capital with three point four billion dollars and assets

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Speaker 1: under management, based in Austin, Texas. U Tarrell, thanks so

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Speaker 1: much for joining us. I just wonder if we could

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Speaker 1: start off with you giving is just kind of state

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Speaker 1: of the commercial real estate market. Where are we today? Well,

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Speaker 1: we've been in a tenure expansion, just like every other

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Speaker 1: risk asset class out there. Um, we're at all time

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Speaker 1: highs when it comes to valuations, So that gives a

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Speaker 1: lot of people pause. Having said that, UM, we continue

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Speaker 1: to go. We continue to have a very positive environment

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Speaker 1: for commercial real estate investments. And when you look at

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Speaker 1: real estate relative to other risk asset classes like stocks

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Speaker 1: and bonds and private equity and commodities, et cetera. You

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Speaker 1: can say, from a relative beauty perspective, a relative beauty contest,

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Speaker 1: it looks really quite good compared to the other asset classes.

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Speaker 1: So how much of it doing well is because we

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Speaker 1: have low global central bank rates and how much of

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Speaker 1: it is actually the underlying demand and line business is

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Speaker 1: doing really well? You know, it's it's really both, right,

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Speaker 1: So your first point is really important because what's unusual

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Speaker 1: about the current escalated valuations is we don't have a

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Speaker 1: private debt bubble like we've had in the past. When

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Speaker 1: you look at the last several bubbles of commercial real estate,

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Speaker 1: obviously the most recent being the global financial crisis or

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Speaker 1: two thousand six, two thousand seven leading into o A,

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Speaker 1: you know, we had some really aggressive lending standards going

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Speaker 1: on that doesn't exist today. Now. Some would argue we

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Speaker 1: have a bit of an equity bubble which is fueled

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Speaker 1: by a debt bubble on the public sector balance sheet. Right,

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Speaker 1: So the federal government obviously, through all of its easy measures,

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Speaker 1: has levered up its balance sheet, pumped a lot of

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Speaker 1: liquidity into the system, which has driven valuations across all

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Speaker 1: risk asset categories very high. Simultaneously, that liquidity has also

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Speaker 1: influenced demand, so you have a scenario where there is

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Speaker 1: a lot of demand. As you suggest, unemployment is very

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Speaker 1: low GPS growing albeit slower than most people expected to

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Speaker 1: at this particular point in the cycle. Um and have

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Speaker 1: expensive pricing, but all the rest of the fundamentals remain

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Speaker 1: really pretty positive. So Tarah, I know you guys, your firm,

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Speaker 1: you focused on alternative property type investments. Give us a

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Speaker 1: sense of what those given us some examples of what

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Speaker 1: those would look like for you guys. Yeah, absolutely, So

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Speaker 1: we don't invest in what's known as the basic food

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Speaker 1: groups of commercial real estate, which is where about all

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Speaker 1: institutional real estate assets are held, things like multi family

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Speaker 1: and office and industrial and hospitality and retail. Of course,

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Speaker 1: where we focus instead is in property segments that we

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Speaker 1: have found to be resilient during economic downturns, things like

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Speaker 1: health your assets, so that would be senior living, medical, office,

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Speaker 1: and related things like educational assets, student housing, charter schools,

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Speaker 1: early at and then probably our biggest conviction asset class

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Speaker 1: right now is what we call workforce housing. Workforce housing

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Speaker 1: is simply quality, affordable housing for the average US renter.

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Speaker 1: You guys well know, particularly where you're located, we have

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Speaker 1: a housing affordability crisis in this country and for a

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Speaker 1: number of years we've been trying to be part of

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Speaker 1: the solution to that particular crisis, and we think you

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Speaker 1: can deliver attractive risk adjusted returns investing in that space.

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Speaker 1: So you're definitely not alone in particular. You know, I

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Speaker 1: know that KKR is putting a lot of money into

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Speaker 1: specifically things like senior housing. Um, what are valuations like,

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Speaker 1: how have they changed? How much more competition do you

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Speaker 1: have right now? You know, we've seen a lot of

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Speaker 1: new entrants into our categories of the last several years.

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Speaker 1: And bring up KKR. If we took the top ten,

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Speaker 1: the ten largest fund managers in the commercial real estate space,

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Speaker 1: I think about seven of those have made investments in

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Speaker 1: my property types in the last four or five years,

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Speaker 1: which was not the case prior. What it's done is,

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Speaker 1: on one hand, it's really challenging because it's driven valuations higher,

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Speaker 1: as you would imagine, but it's typically valuations in portfolios,

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Speaker 1: So we see portfolio premiums today higher than they've ever been. However,

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Speaker 1: one off deals still art have not grown at the

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Speaker 1: same rate as we've seen portfolio deals, so you can

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Speaker 1: still find value if you will, in the cracks and

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Speaker 1: the crevices. The other thing is is when you look

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Speaker 1: at the big guys when they come into a space,

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Speaker 1: that also, I guess you would say validates the space.

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Speaker 1: It creates more liquidity. So we see far more liquidity

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Speaker 1: when we go to sell assets today, and we are

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Speaker 1: always actively buying and we're always actively selling now typically

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Speaker 1: when we buy, we're buying one off and when we sell,

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Speaker 1: we're selling a portfolio, and we see a lot of

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Speaker 1: liquidity for that for those kind of transactions, more so

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Speaker 1: than we've ever seen in the past. So I think

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Speaker 1: there's a there's a lot of positives despite valuations being

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Speaker 1: impacted with which make it harder to buy but better

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Speaker 1: to sell. Arrol Gates, thank you so much for joining

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Speaker 1: us Terro Gates as chief executive officer for Vertus real

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Speaker 1: Estate Capital based in Austin, Texas, giving us a breakdown

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Speaker 1: of the commercial real estate market. Thanks for listening to

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Speaker 1: the Bloomberg P and L podcast. You can subscribe and

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00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:06,280
Speaker 1: listen to interviews at Apple Podcasts or whatever podcast platform

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00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:09,400
Speaker 1: you prefer. I'm Paul Sweeney, I'm on Twitter at pt Sweeney.

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Speaker 1: I'm Lisa abram Woyit's I'm on Twitter at Lisa abram

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Speaker 1: Woits one before the podcast. You can always catch us worldwide.

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Speaker 1: I'm Bloomberg Radio