WEBVTT - Pete Dye’s Design Legacy (feat. Scot Sherman) 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:03.760 Pete Dye had one of the most unusual and fruitful 0:00:03.880 --> 0:00:07.160 careers in the history of golf architecture, and in this 0:00:07.240 --> 0:00:11.000 episode we're digging into it. My guest is Scott Sherman, 0:00:11.440 --> 0:00:15.480 the lead designer at Love Golf Design. Last year, Scott 0:00:15.520 --> 0:00:19.439 and Love Golf Design carried out a major restoration of 0:00:19.480 --> 0:00:22.840 Pete Dye's Harbor Town golf Links, and they're also in 0:00:22.880 --> 0:00:27.080 the midst of a multi year series of renovation projects 0:00:27.440 --> 0:00:32.239 at TPC Sawgrass, another pivotal Die Design. We're going to 0:00:32.240 --> 0:00:35.280 talk about all of it. I'm Garrett Morrison, and this 0:00:35.440 --> 0:00:45.479 is Designing Golf, all right. Today's big question why do 0:00:45.600 --> 0:00:50.360 golf architecture nerds love Pete Dye. If you spend any 0:00:50.400 --> 0:00:54.480 time looking at what enthusiasts say about golf course design, 0:00:54.840 --> 0:00:57.360 and since you're listening to this podcast, I assume that 0:00:57.440 --> 0:01:02.160 you do, you might have noticed a contradiction. The same 0:01:02.240 --> 0:01:07.520 people who criticize golf courses for disregarding the natural terrain 0:01:07.800 --> 0:01:10.760 or being too difficult for the average player, or having 0:01:10.760 --> 0:01:15.360 too many trees, or being too narrow to accommodate strategic angles, 0:01:15.720 --> 0:01:19.319 or relying too much on water hazards, those same people 0:01:19.800 --> 0:01:23.040 will often tell you that Pete Dye was a great 0:01:23.400 --> 0:01:28.880 golf architect, which is strange because Pete Dye's courses did 0:01:28.959 --> 0:01:32.319 all of those things that I just mentioned. They usually 0:01:32.360 --> 0:01:35.240 feature a lot of water, some of them are pretty 0:01:35.280 --> 0:01:38.280 narrow and have a lot of trees. Most of them 0:01:38.319 --> 0:01:43.880 are very difficult for an average golfer to play. And obviously, 0:01:43.920 --> 0:01:46.440 if you've ever seen a Pete Die course, you know 0:01:46.560 --> 0:01:51.320 that he wasn't all that interested in naturalism. So what's 0:01:51.320 --> 0:01:55.800 going on here? Why is Die so beloved by people 0:01:55.880 --> 0:02:00.840 who would otherwise seem inclined to criticize them. I think 0:02:00.880 --> 0:02:05.120 there are three main reasons for that. One, Pete Dye 0:02:05.280 --> 0:02:10.240 was genuinely original and innovative. He was constantly trying to 0:02:10.280 --> 0:02:14.960 find new ways of doing things. So, for example, in 0:02:15.000 --> 0:02:18.359 the early nineteen sixties, Die and his wife Alice made 0:02:18.360 --> 0:02:21.760 a trip to Scotland to study the Classic Links courses. 0:02:22.360 --> 0:02:25.280 And I should point out here that this itself was 0:02:25.440 --> 0:02:28.480 unusual for a golf architect at the time. So when 0:02:28.680 --> 0:02:31.920 Dye came back from Scotland, he had this foundation of 0:02:31.960 --> 0:02:35.080 knowledge that not a lot of American golf architects shared, 0:02:35.760 --> 0:02:39.720 and he processed that knowledge in a really interesting and 0:02:39.880 --> 0:02:44.160 original way. He didn't just go about trying to replicate 0:02:44.200 --> 0:02:48.720 Scottish links golf. Instead, he came up with his own 0:02:49.000 --> 0:02:53.400 versions of certain features that he had seen. Famously, he 0:02:53.440 --> 0:02:58.119 started building pop bunkers and shoring up hazards with wooden bulkheads, 0:02:58.200 --> 0:03:01.519 often made out of railroad ties, but he also experimented 0:03:01.560 --> 0:03:07.480 with contour. He captured the eccentricity and irregularity of links 0:03:07.639 --> 0:03:14.280 undulations without just reproducing links undulations. He created a variety 0:03:14.440 --> 0:03:18.079 of rugged textures at his golf courses. A lot of 0:03:18.120 --> 0:03:21.960 these have faded over time, but initially he used many 0:03:22.040 --> 0:03:26.160 different kinds of grasses, different kinds of bunker sand. Even 0:03:27.160 --> 0:03:32.840 basically after his trip to Scotland, Dye reintroduced some wildness 0:03:33.240 --> 0:03:37.360 to American golf course design, and the results were completely 0:03:37.400 --> 0:03:41.440 different from anything else being built at the time. This 0:03:41.480 --> 0:03:45.080 is a fact that he was very conscious of. Pete 0:03:45.160 --> 0:03:49.560 Dye was a contrarian. He wanted to be different. I 0:03:49.600 --> 0:03:54.600 often think about the famous story behind the inspiration for 0:03:54.840 --> 0:03:58.440 Dye's design at Harbortown Golf Links on Hilton Head Island. 0:03:59.280 --> 0:04:02.280 At the same time he was designing Harbortown, A Robert 0:04:02.320 --> 0:04:06.720 Trent Jones golf course was under construction on Hilton Head 0:04:06.760 --> 0:04:11.600 as well. This course was called Palmetto Dunes. Robert Trent Jones, 0:04:11.640 --> 0:04:14.800 of course, was the dominant golf architect of the era. 0:04:15.400 --> 0:04:19.560 Everyone was trying to catch up to him by imitating 0:04:19.600 --> 0:04:24.719 what he was doing. But Die, instead of just imitating 0:04:25.040 --> 0:04:29.160 what he saw at Palmetto Dunes, thought to himself, I'm 0:04:29.200 --> 0:04:32.640 going to do the opposite of that. Here's how he 0:04:32.680 --> 0:04:35.359 describes it in his book, Bury Me in a pop bunker, 0:04:35.360 --> 0:04:39.240 which I would highly recommend to anybody. He writes, as 0:04:39.279 --> 0:04:43.480 I watched the big machinery carve out long teas, huge bunkers, 0:04:43.680 --> 0:04:47.279 and large greens, I wondered how I could design something 0:04:47.800 --> 0:04:52.240 that would separate my identity from his. Somehow, the concept 0:04:52.279 --> 0:04:55.560 of designing small greens and a low profile course crept 0:04:55.600 --> 0:04:59.680 into my brain. Instead of long teas, flowing fairways, and 0:05:00.000 --> 0:05:05.640 elevated large greens, I deliberately chose to design multiple tea positions, 0:05:06.279 --> 0:05:11.320 small to medium size, shot demanding greens, undulating fairways, long 0:05:11.360 --> 0:05:17.559 waist areas, and abrupt, steep pop bunkers. So, in other words, 0:05:18.160 --> 0:05:22.479 Di was intentionally zagging on the Harbor Town project. He 0:05:22.640 --> 0:05:26.560 was thinking like an artist rather than a business person 0:05:27.360 --> 0:05:31.440 or a member of a resort development team, and that's 0:05:31.440 --> 0:05:36.200 something that golf architecture nerds really appreciate. Now. It is 0:05:36.279 --> 0:05:40.200 true that I could occasionally go a little too far 0:05:40.440 --> 0:05:43.919 in his effort to be novel. A quick example would 0:05:43.920 --> 0:05:46.720 be the so called volcano bunkers that he built at 0:05:46.720 --> 0:05:50.760 French Lick in Indiana, which are unique and memorable and 0:05:50.760 --> 0:05:54.280 I would imagine have their fans, but I consider them 0:05:54.279 --> 0:05:58.039 pretty silly, and I can't imagine that they're easy or 0:05:58.160 --> 0:06:03.080 cheap to maintain. Even in cases like that, Though I 0:06:03.240 --> 0:06:07.080 like that Di went for it, his missteps came from 0:06:07.120 --> 0:06:10.880 the same source as his best work, which was a 0:06:11.040 --> 0:06:16.080 genuine willingness to push an experiment, and in a field 0:06:16.480 --> 0:06:20.960 full of people who play it safe, that quality stands out. 0:06:22.360 --> 0:06:26.080 Another reason design enthusiasts love Pete Dye is that he 0:06:26.160 --> 0:06:31.520 knew how to make difficult courses interesting. Anyone can design 0:06:31.560 --> 0:06:35.159 a golf course that produces high scores, but it takes 0:06:35.279 --> 0:06:40.120 real ingenuity and skill to design one that's enjoyable and 0:06:40.240 --> 0:06:44.960 engaging while it's dishing out punishment. And that's what Pete 0:06:45.040 --> 0:06:49.920 Dye was able to do over and over the stadium 0:06:49.920 --> 0:06:53.200 course at TPC Sagrass is maybe the best example of this. 0:06:54.080 --> 0:06:58.000 When Die designed it, his brief was to build the 0:06:58.040 --> 0:07:01.240 most difficult golf course in the world. Usually that kind 0:07:01.240 --> 0:07:04.760 of brief does not result in interesting golf courses, but 0:07:05.320 --> 0:07:08.000 the stadium courses stood the test of time, and a 0:07:08.000 --> 0:07:10.880 big reason for that is that the holes don't just 0:07:11.080 --> 0:07:16.720 punish poor shots, they also test decision making. They test 0:07:16.800 --> 0:07:21.560 risk tolerance. So consider the eighteenth hole, by any standard, 0:07:22.080 --> 0:07:26.360 a very difficult finishing par four. At last year's Players Championship, 0:07:26.720 --> 0:07:29.600 it was the second hardest hole on the course. But 0:07:29.680 --> 0:07:35.559 it's not just straightforwardly sadistic. It's actually a very nuanced hole. 0:07:36.360 --> 0:07:39.000 Off the tee, what you're looking at is a fairway 0:07:39.280 --> 0:07:42.640 running on a right to left diagonal, with a lake 0:07:42.920 --> 0:07:45.440 hard against the left side and trees on the right. 0:07:46.240 --> 0:07:49.280 The fairway is at its widest point about two hundred 0:07:49.280 --> 0:07:51.840 and sixty yards from the back tee, But if you 0:07:51.880 --> 0:07:55.280 play to that relatively safe spot, you'll have a two 0:07:55.400 --> 0:07:58.440 hundred yard approach into a green that tilts toward the 0:07:58.480 --> 0:08:01.400 water and is also guarded by mounting in a pot 0:08:01.440 --> 0:08:07.360 bunker front right. That's a really tough shot. So most 0:08:07.400 --> 0:08:10.520 players try to push up a little more. But the 0:08:10.600 --> 0:08:13.640 problem is the more you push up, the more left 0:08:13.680 --> 0:08:16.560 you have to go, because that's where the fairway is moving. 0:08:17.520 --> 0:08:20.520 So this means you either start your ball over the 0:08:20.560 --> 0:08:25.320 water or carve a right to left t shot into 0:08:25.360 --> 0:08:30.480 the fairway, both of which are very uncomfortable plays, especially 0:08:30.520 --> 0:08:33.600 for right handed pros who are used to hitting a fade. 0:08:34.600 --> 0:08:36.760 So a lot of players end up in the trees 0:08:36.800 --> 0:08:39.560 on the right, which is obviously better than the water 0:08:39.640 --> 0:08:42.880 on the left, but still a very tough spot to 0:08:42.960 --> 0:08:47.560 be you're making par or bogie from there pretty much certainly, 0:08:48.640 --> 0:08:52.120 so every year we see a surprising number of players 0:08:52.160 --> 0:08:55.480 flirting with the water. And I think that's because if 0:08:55.520 --> 0:08:58.840 you pull off that te shot, a three is there 0:08:58.880 --> 0:09:02.200 for the taking its base a short iron or even 0:09:02.200 --> 0:09:06.080 a wedge into a decently receptive green from that angle, 0:09:06.920 --> 0:09:09.120 and on the final whole of the day, when you're 0:09:09.280 --> 0:09:12.920 trying to make the cut, or win the tournament, or 0:09:13.000 --> 0:09:16.040 just make up ground on the field, that is a 0:09:16.200 --> 0:09:22.160 very tempting proposition. So, yes, a difficult golf hole, but 0:09:22.360 --> 0:09:26.720 fascinating to play and watch. All Right, we've talked about 0:09:27.080 --> 0:09:33.160 Dye's originality, and his way of achieving difficulty and interest simultaneously. 0:09:34.240 --> 0:09:37.760 Another big reason he's so beloved by golf architecture nerds 0:09:38.480 --> 0:09:44.080 is that he reintroduced design build methodology to the game. Now, 0:09:44.160 --> 0:09:46.720 this topic deserves a podcast of its own, so I 0:09:46.760 --> 0:09:49.280 won't go as in depth here as I want to, 0:09:50.080 --> 0:09:52.720 But the short of it is that when Dye started 0:09:52.720 --> 0:09:57.080 his career, Robert Trent Jones was turning golf architecture into 0:09:57.280 --> 0:10:00.800 an office job. His approach was to draw up a 0:10:00.840 --> 0:10:03.280 set of plans and then hand them off to a 0:10:03.320 --> 0:10:06.880 construction company, usually a construction company that he himself owned. 0:10:07.960 --> 0:10:11.520 This allowed Jones to scale up his business and to 0:10:11.600 --> 0:10:15.080 design a tremendous number of golf courses across the world. 0:10:16.200 --> 0:10:20.120 Die didn't work this way. He was famously averse to 0:10:20.240 --> 0:10:24.560 formal plans and he much preferred to work things out 0:10:24.600 --> 0:10:28.080 in the ground with a shovel and a bulldozer. He 0:10:28.280 --> 0:10:34.360 was intensely collaborative. His wife, Alice, his most trusted design advisor, 0:10:35.080 --> 0:10:39.280 made critical contributions to every project that Dyes company was 0:10:39.280 --> 0:10:43.800 involved in. So the courses evolved as they were being built, 0:10:44.440 --> 0:10:47.480 and the effect of this is that die'es courses have 0:10:47.559 --> 0:10:51.880 a handmade quality to them. Yes, they are clearly manufactured, 0:10:52.880 --> 0:10:56.320 but they're interesting to look at because they're shaped with 0:10:56.400 --> 0:11:00.840 such care and individual attention. You don't see a lot 0:11:00.880 --> 0:11:04.920 of cookie cutter stuff at Die's best courses. His features 0:11:05.480 --> 0:11:10.240 are really varied and irregular. His mounding, for instance, is 0:11:10.360 --> 0:11:16.320 chaotic and unpredictable, very different from the tidy containment mounding 0:11:16.880 --> 0:11:22.560 that was typical on courses built during his period. There's 0:11:22.600 --> 0:11:27.040 just an appealing strangeness to Dye's shaping that I think 0:11:27.160 --> 0:11:31.640 comes from his devotion to the on site boots on 0:11:31.679 --> 0:11:36.480 the ground craft of golf architecture. And this approach turned 0:11:36.480 --> 0:11:39.800 out to be very influential because Die passed it on. 0:11:40.679 --> 0:11:44.000 He was like an NFL coach who produces a lot 0:11:44.040 --> 0:11:49.400 of other really good NFL coaches. Pete Dye trained Bill Corr, 0:11:49.800 --> 0:11:53.679 He trained Tom Doak. He trained Rod Whitman and Jim 0:11:53.800 --> 0:11:57.640 Orbina and Tim Liddy and Bobby Weed and many others 0:11:58.280 --> 0:12:02.320 who in turn a huge number of the up and 0:12:02.360 --> 0:12:07.360 coming designers who will define the next era of golf architecture. 0:12:08.200 --> 0:12:12.840 Often their courses look nothing like Dies, but his methods 0:12:13.240 --> 0:12:17.360 are in their DNA. So that's your answer to the 0:12:17.559 --> 0:12:22.280 apparent contradiction that I started with. Certainly, Pete Dye did 0:12:22.320 --> 0:12:26.040 a lot of things that current enthusiasts claim to dislike, 0:12:26.960 --> 0:12:30.840 but he did it with such originality and such a 0:12:30.960 --> 0:12:35.440 contrarian spirit and such a sense for the nuances of 0:12:35.559 --> 0:12:40.480 strategy and psychology that people who are passionately into golf 0:12:40.559 --> 0:12:44.720 architecture just can't help but love his courses. And on 0:12:44.800 --> 0:12:48.160 top of that, he introduced a design build workflow that 0:12:48.200 --> 0:12:51.400 has produced most of the greatest golf courses of the 0:12:51.440 --> 0:12:56.640 past thirty years. That's why golf architecture nerds appreciate and 0:12:56.720 --> 0:13:01.040 respect Pete Dies so much, even if his work doesn't 0:13:01.120 --> 0:13:05.920 really resemble what we usually like. All Right, I'd like 0:13:06.000 --> 0:13:09.360 to dive deeper into a couple of specific Pete Die 0:13:09.400 --> 0:13:12.600 golf courses. For that, I'll bring on Scott Sherman, who 0:13:12.640 --> 0:13:16.720 is the lead designer at Love Golf Design alongside Davis 0:13:16.720 --> 0:13:19.920 Love the third and Mark Love. Scott has developed a 0:13:20.040 --> 0:13:24.880 kind of specialty in Pete Die renovation and restoration. He 0:13:24.880 --> 0:13:27.320 helped to prepare the Ocean course at Kiawa Island for 0:13:27.360 --> 0:13:30.719 the twenty twenty one PGA Championship, and he restored an 0:13:30.720 --> 0:13:35.880 excellent early Die Design called Delray Dunes in Florida. Most recently, 0:13:36.120 --> 0:13:40.000 and most relevantly to this episode, he and Love Golf 0:13:40.040 --> 0:13:44.320 Design carried out a restoration of Harbortown Golf Links last year. 0:13:44.559 --> 0:13:47.520 This is the host of the annual Heritage Tournament on 0:13:47.559 --> 0:13:51.080 the PGA Tour, and they are also heading up an 0:13:51.080 --> 0:13:55.479 ongoing renovation plan at the stadium course at TPC Sawgrass, 0:13:55.559 --> 0:13:59.400 the annual site of the Players Championship. Basically, there's a 0:13:59.400 --> 0:14:03.400 lot going on in Scott's world related to Pete Dye, 0:14:04.000 --> 0:14:05.720 so I thought this would be a good time to 0:14:05.720 --> 0:14:09.720 bring them on and talk specifically about what's happening at 0:14:09.720 --> 0:14:20.240 Harbortown and Sawgrass. Let's get to it all, right, Scott Sherman, 0:14:20.440 --> 0:14:21.440 Welcome to the podcast. 0:14:21.720 --> 0:14:23.040 Good morning, Garrett. How are you. 0:14:23.440 --> 0:14:24.760 I'm doing pretty well. How about you? 0:14:25.040 --> 0:14:28.560 So keeping busy but as I said, better than I deserve. 0:14:29.800 --> 0:14:33.720 Yeah, you you have certainly been very busy lately, and 0:14:33.760 --> 0:14:37.120 we're going to be talking about a little bit of 0:14:37.240 --> 0:14:40.320 what you've been doing lately. But first of all, I 0:14:40.320 --> 0:14:42.520 want to I want to chat a bit about your 0:14:43.000 --> 0:14:46.640 your history with Pete Dye. The subject of this episode 0:14:46.680 --> 0:14:50.560 here is Die his design style, some of his courses. 0:14:51.600 --> 0:14:55.600 You began your career, as I understand it, working with 0:14:55.920 --> 0:14:58.360 Pete and Alice Dye at Kiwa Island. 0:14:58.480 --> 0:15:02.560 That's where I met them. Actually, like a lot of us, 0:15:02.680 --> 0:15:07.080 I was captivated as a teenager by the first watching 0:15:07.160 --> 0:15:12.240 TPC Sawgrass on television, not knowing that I would want 0:15:12.280 --> 0:15:16.680 to be a golf designer one day. Fast forward many 0:15:16.800 --> 0:15:21.080 years in the first time I really thought about being 0:15:21.120 --> 0:15:26.240 in the business was in college. And the first time 0:15:26.280 --> 0:15:30.960 I had ever set foot on Harbortown, ironically, was in 0:15:31.040 --> 0:15:35.560 nineteen eighty nine. That was called the Nabisco Championship back 0:15:35.560 --> 0:15:39.760 in those days, the forerunner of the Tour Championship walked 0:15:39.800 --> 0:15:43.680 that golf course after the fourteenth hole, I thought to myself, 0:15:43.760 --> 0:15:48.280 I need to go find Pete and Alice. So made 0:15:48.360 --> 0:15:51.760 my way to Kiowa while it was under construction, and 0:15:51.800 --> 0:15:54.360 that's really where I connected with some of their staff. 0:15:54.480 --> 0:15:56.880 To be honest with you, some of the guys out 0:15:56.920 --> 0:15:59.440 in the field, but Pete and Alice had moved there 0:15:59.480 --> 0:16:04.520 to do that project at Kiowa. So I wrote them 0:16:04.520 --> 0:16:08.280 a letter and got a response from Alice, a letter 0:16:08.320 --> 0:16:12.400 I have to this day kept in my file. So 0:16:12.440 --> 0:16:15.600 that would have been you know, late eighty nine, early 0:16:15.720 --> 0:16:20.640 ninety and lo and behold, they connected me with Perry 0:16:20.720 --> 0:16:24.200 Dye who was working on some projects with them, and 0:16:24.320 --> 0:16:27.240 I first, you know, went to work with the Die 0:16:27.320 --> 0:16:32.360 family out in Denver, Colorado as part of their bigger staff, 0:16:32.440 --> 0:16:36.400 and got together with Pete and Alice out there actually, 0:16:37.560 --> 0:16:39.760 and then was sent to Hawaii to build my first 0:16:39.760 --> 0:16:42.760 golf course, which was not bad duty, but it was 0:16:42.800 --> 0:16:47.120 a very difficult project. So that's how that sort of happened. 0:16:48.080 --> 0:16:51.400 And ironically having been at Harbor Town and now all 0:16:51.440 --> 0:16:54.920 these years later helping them with their work there and 0:16:55.200 --> 0:16:58.360 the ocean course at Kiowa and as you mentioned, TPC 0:16:58.520 --> 0:17:02.720 Sawgrass as we're working right now. So it's just crazy. 0:17:03.840 --> 0:17:08.480 What are some of the initial experiences you had in 0:17:08.520 --> 0:17:12.720 the kind of Die family system that taught you things 0:17:12.760 --> 0:17:15.640 about golf course architecture and construction. 0:17:16.720 --> 0:17:21.040 Well, so my first memory of anything at all would 0:17:21.040 --> 0:17:24.520 have been walking on the ocean course, which was just 0:17:24.640 --> 0:17:27.320 it looked like the moon, you know, just a big 0:17:27.359 --> 0:17:32.520 old moonscape out there of sand and movement and whatnot. 0:17:32.920 --> 0:17:34.800 So I didn't have a clue what I was looking at. 0:17:35.440 --> 0:17:38.680 And when I got to Denver, it was hired properly 0:17:40.560 --> 0:17:43.919 Perry their son, their older son, said hey, look, you 0:17:44.000 --> 0:17:47.560 need to understand what we do in our style. And 0:17:47.640 --> 0:17:50.640 I had a feel for it. But he was gracious 0:17:50.760 --> 0:17:53.080 enough to send me to some of their golf courses 0:17:53.119 --> 0:17:56.080 that were well known and had been built years before, 0:17:56.600 --> 0:18:00.760 and he immersed me in photography that was sort of 0:18:01.960 --> 0:18:06.800 archived at their office in Denver. Their their photographer, Kenny May, 0:18:06.880 --> 0:18:11.840 their family photographer, availed me of any any golf course 0:18:11.840 --> 0:18:14.600 that they had ever built all over the world, and 0:18:14.640 --> 0:18:18.960 so I immersed myself in photography, which many years later, 0:18:19.119 --> 0:18:23.040 ironically has has come back. So that's where it sort 0:18:23.040 --> 0:18:26.439 of started. Get a feel for what we do, and 0:18:26.480 --> 0:18:30.120 then they started teaching me about the strategy. Here's how 0:18:30.160 --> 0:18:34.000 we think about golf holes. Pete always mentioned building in 0:18:34.040 --> 0:18:38.160 a third dimension, you know, as you know, there's there's 0:18:38.400 --> 0:18:43.159 lots of features that cast shadows and look more intimidating 0:18:43.200 --> 0:18:46.680 than they really are. So my earliest memories are of 0:18:46.920 --> 0:18:50.080 really studying their golf courses over a pretty short period 0:18:50.119 --> 0:18:53.320 of time. And then off I was sent to Hawaii 0:18:53.359 --> 0:18:55.760 to build this golf course in the middle of the 0:18:55.800 --> 0:18:59.960 Monowilly Valleys as they call it, and that's where it's 0:19:00.080 --> 0:19:00.600 or started. 0:19:01.960 --> 0:19:06.960 Do any stories come to mind from these early years about, 0:19:07.080 --> 0:19:10.640 you know, how construction was done on a Pete Dye 0:19:10.720 --> 0:19:16.159 golf course. I mean, clearly, this firm, this family had 0:19:16.880 --> 0:19:19.919 an approach to golf course construction that was different from 0:19:20.480 --> 0:19:24.439 that of other golf architecture firms. You may not have 0:19:24.480 --> 0:19:26.719 been aware of that because this was your you know, 0:19:26.760 --> 0:19:29.479 this was these were some of your first experiences in 0:19:29.520 --> 0:19:32.840 building golf But what was distinctive about the way that 0:19:33.280 --> 0:19:36.200 construction was done in the kind of die method? 0:19:36.880 --> 0:19:39.680 Well, and of course I knew nothing different other than 0:19:41.040 --> 0:19:43.679 when I got to my first project. So I was 0:19:43.800 --> 0:19:49.160 partly a design associate and partly construction manager as it were, 0:19:49.640 --> 0:19:52.159 and I was put in a ditch right from the 0:19:52.160 --> 0:19:54.840 beginning and told you need to learn how to build 0:19:54.840 --> 0:19:57.800 these golf courses from the ground up, which has served 0:19:57.840 --> 0:20:01.600 us well to this day. So I really didn't know 0:20:01.640 --> 0:20:05.040 any other way than to really build a golf course 0:20:05.480 --> 0:20:07.760 and designed it. At the same time, I think Pete 0:20:07.760 --> 0:20:10.440 would have even said he was a golf course builder 0:20:11.320 --> 0:20:14.160 much more than a golf course designer, and certainly didn't 0:20:14.280 --> 0:20:18.280 use the term too much golf architect. But we learned 0:20:18.320 --> 0:20:21.720 to build golf courses, and that's how we still do it. Yes, 0:20:21.800 --> 0:20:25.760 we have to deal with AutoCAD and plans and permitting 0:20:25.800 --> 0:20:28.680 and all that sort of thing, but that only gets 0:20:28.720 --> 0:20:31.480 you about eighty percent of the way. And we build 0:20:31.480 --> 0:20:35.359 a golf course and the features sort of reveal themselves 0:20:35.440 --> 0:20:39.560 as we impose our will here and there and work 0:20:39.640 --> 0:20:44.560 with sites, you know, somewhat minimalistically sometimes, but sometimes we 0:20:44.640 --> 0:20:47.440 have to impose our will. But we're really, we're really 0:20:47.480 --> 0:20:50.680 at the heart of it, golf course builders. And that's 0:20:50.840 --> 0:20:53.480 just how I learned, and of course is I got 0:20:53.560 --> 0:20:56.560 to know other people in the business and other people 0:20:56.600 --> 0:20:59.639 that work for the Die family. That's exactly how they 0:20:59.760 --> 0:21:03.439 learned to bill golf courses, folks like Bill Coohr and 0:21:03.520 --> 0:21:06.639 Tom Doak, and you go on and on. I'm really 0:21:06.680 --> 0:21:10.280 sort of the third generation, you know, Pete and Alice 0:21:10.359 --> 0:21:13.560 being the first generation, and folks like Bill Cooorr being 0:21:14.080 --> 0:21:17.240 you know, the second generation. I'm a younger generation, and 0:21:17.320 --> 0:21:21.320 I certainly didn't work on as many golf courses as 0:21:21.520 --> 0:21:25.760 lots of other guys did and gals, but certainly was 0:21:26.240 --> 0:21:30.199 very very influenced by the building process, much more so 0:21:31.080 --> 0:21:35.119 than the design process, and to this day it's a 0:21:35.200 --> 0:21:39.040 necessary evil to get things on paper and be able 0:21:39.040 --> 0:21:41.800 to permit and land plan and all that sort of thing. 0:21:42.440 --> 0:21:47.000 But I guess the instinctive part of what we do 0:21:47.400 --> 0:21:50.680 is the building part, the part that's fun, the part 0:21:50.760 --> 0:21:54.679 where you just feel, I feel comfortable standing on the 0:21:54.680 --> 0:21:57.320 ground and making it happen. You know, with all the 0:21:57.359 --> 0:21:59.679 fellows that we deal with the golf course builders at 0:21:59.680 --> 0:22:00.399 this point one. 0:22:01.480 --> 0:22:04.240 Were you building greens at this point? 0:22:05.119 --> 0:22:08.280 Yes? Absolutely, you know, how did. 0:22:08.080 --> 0:22:08.879 That process go? 0:22:09.080 --> 0:22:09.359 It was? 0:22:09.400 --> 0:22:12.480 I mean, because different architects have different approaches to building greens, 0:22:12.480 --> 0:22:15.320 and it's pretty interesting. I mean, Bill Corer and Tom 0:22:15.359 --> 0:22:18.880 Doak approach building greens differently. Tom Doak kind of has 0:22:18.920 --> 0:22:21.720 his associates go out and mess around with it and 0:22:22.359 --> 0:22:24.800 come up with these ideas, and then Tom comes in 0:22:24.840 --> 0:22:27.800 and edits. You know, these are very broad strokes here. 0:22:28.200 --> 0:22:31.000 Bill is more like, you know, he'll he'll figure out 0:22:31.000 --> 0:22:33.880 the concept of the green and have a pretty specific 0:22:33.920 --> 0:22:36.359 idea of what he wants done, and then they go 0:22:36.400 --> 0:22:38.919 out and execute that. What was the nature of that 0:22:38.960 --> 0:22:40.920 process for you in the die system. 0:22:40.760 --> 0:22:46.600 Well, at the beginning, so interestingly enough, I was sent 0:22:46.680 --> 0:22:50.240 to Hawaii, and the crew that built the ocean course 0:22:50.240 --> 0:22:54.000 at Kiowa for the ninety one Ryder Cup left Kiowa, 0:22:54.320 --> 0:22:56.640 picked me up in Denver, and we went to Hawaii 0:22:56.640 --> 0:22:59.920 to build this golf course. So that crew of folks, 0:23:00.119 --> 0:23:05.040 Steve Mann, Keith Sparkman, lots of guys that were at 0:23:05.119 --> 0:23:09.080 Kiawa taught me here's how you do it, and they 0:23:09.080 --> 0:23:12.080 would hand me bundles of flags and put my rear 0:23:12.200 --> 0:23:15.040 end on a sand pro or a tractor. I tried 0:23:15.080 --> 0:23:18.320 to do some work on a bulldozer' maybe too a 0:23:18.480 --> 0:23:21.200 d D and too impatient to sit on a bulldozer 0:23:21.280 --> 0:23:24.119 all day. I've got to be roaming the site. But 0:23:24.200 --> 0:23:27.879 I did learn to run some small equipment and do 0:23:27.960 --> 0:23:30.480 that a little bit less now these days, but still 0:23:30.920 --> 0:23:35.479 enjoy doing that. But we would literally you have a 0:23:35.480 --> 0:23:39.240 green site that was roughed in, and the guys would 0:23:39.280 --> 0:23:41.280 flag it out or I would flag it out, and 0:23:41.680 --> 0:23:44.160 we would just start playing with the dirt. As I say, 0:23:44.240 --> 0:23:48.520 the construction part of it have kind of a concept. 0:23:48.880 --> 0:23:51.280 I guess I have personally moved on to doing some 0:23:51.400 --> 0:23:55.040 green sketches, which helps us sort of anchor where we 0:23:55.119 --> 0:23:59.240 start and move the dirt around back in those days 0:23:59.680 --> 0:24:02.800 build in USGA green, we would build the core of 0:24:02.840 --> 0:24:05.479 the green, in other words, sixteen inches down in the 0:24:05.640 --> 0:24:08.359 in the dirt. And I always struggle with that. I 0:24:08.520 --> 0:24:11.399 like to like to build the whole green complex with 0:24:11.680 --> 0:24:15.200 all of the features as they would be finished, and 0:24:15.240 --> 0:24:19.720 then core it out and build, you know, ourselves a green. 0:24:20.280 --> 0:24:23.240 But so you know, it's always very different how we 0:24:23.320 --> 0:24:26.200 do these things. But that's that's the way. I started, 0:24:26.800 --> 0:24:29.399 just out in the field flagging out greens and figuring 0:24:29.400 --> 0:24:32.919 out the best way it fits in there strategically, and 0:24:32.960 --> 0:24:35.520 then we would mess with the contours physically with the 0:24:35.600 --> 0:24:38.360 sand pro, with the box blade and the tractor. 0:24:39.400 --> 0:24:43.080 Yeah, I've heard I've heard versions of that from various 0:24:43.119 --> 0:24:46.800 people who have worked with Pete Dye and with Perry 0:24:46.840 --> 0:24:50.399 Dye and others associated with the family, that that is 0:24:50.480 --> 0:24:52.439 kind of the problem. You really go out and play 0:24:52.480 --> 0:24:54.879 with it for a while and see what works, and 0:24:54.960 --> 0:24:57.240 then and then you come in kind of with the 0:24:57.240 --> 0:24:59.680 critical mind and shape it from there, which is a 0:25:00.119 --> 0:25:03.200 very interesting process, and it's it's got to be one 0:25:03.320 --> 0:25:07.639 that's that's tough for clients to deal with sometimes because 0:25:07.680 --> 0:25:08.760 you don't know what you. 0:25:08.760 --> 0:25:13.560 Have no idea yes, they're scared to death, but you know, 0:25:13.840 --> 0:25:15.879 at this point in our career we have a history, 0:25:16.400 --> 0:25:18.840 uh that that sort of shows them that that we 0:25:19.160 --> 0:25:20.160 kind of know what we're doing. 0:25:20.200 --> 0:25:23.280 But yes, it can scare them to death because and 0:25:23.359 --> 0:25:28.359 I learned some freedom from Pete by watching him answer 0:25:28.480 --> 0:25:31.280 questions of clients who would say, well, what are you 0:25:31.320 --> 0:25:32.800 going to do here? And what are you going to 0:25:32.880 --> 0:25:34.920 do there? And why did you do this or why 0:25:34.920 --> 0:25:36.760 did you do that? And he would just say, I 0:25:36.760 --> 0:25:42.160 don't know. Just felt right, I don't know, Okay, I mean, 0:25:42.200 --> 0:25:45.880 it is a creative process, you know. It's it's you're 0:25:45.920 --> 0:25:48.680 not building a four wall structure that walls have to 0:25:48.720 --> 0:25:51.399 be in a certain spot. So it just gave us 0:25:51.400 --> 0:25:56.080 some some freedom. And I guess to carry that on 0:25:56.200 --> 0:25:59.360