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Speaker 1: On this episode of News World, Gary Shapley and Joseph

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Speaker 1: Ziegler made headlines when they testified before Congress, revealing political interference,

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Speaker 1: bureaucratic stonewalling, and outright obstruction in the Hunter Biden cominow

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Speaker 1: case despite overwhelming evidence. They watched as the system bent

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Speaker 1: to protect the powerful, with the IRS, FBI, and DOJ

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Speaker 1: failing to act as independent institutions. Their investigation ultimately led

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Speaker 1: to Hunter Biden's federal conviction, but in a stunning last

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Speaker 1: minute move, President Joe Biden pardoned his son then when

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Speaker 1: even further issuing blanket pardons to other family members before

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Speaker 1: leaving office. But this isn't just about Hunter Biden. It's

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Speaker 1: about two public servants who risked everything to expose corruption,

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Speaker 1: facing Rotelli isolation and intense public scrutiny. Chaplin and Ziegler

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Speaker 1: take us inside the high space battle between truth and

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Speaker 1: power here to discuss their new book, The Whistleblowers Versus

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Speaker 1: the Big Guy. I'm really pleased to welcome my guests

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Speaker 1: Gary Shapley and Joseph Sniegler here, and Joe welcome and

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Speaker 1: thank you for joining me in the News World.

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Speaker 2: Thank you, sir. Great to be here. Great to meet you.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, thank you so much for having us.

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Speaker 1: Let's start Joe with you. Can you start by telling

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Speaker 1: us a little bit about your own background, how you

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Speaker 1: get started at the IRS, and how you first became

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Speaker 1: connected to what became the Hunter Biden case. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely so. I grew up in a small town in

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Speaker 3: northeast Ohio. I'm an Ohio native. While I was there,

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Speaker 3: worked at Ernst and Young prior to coming to the government.

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Speaker 3: Decided to make the move into federal service. Moved over

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Speaker 3: the IRS in twenty ten. Worked a variety of cases,

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Speaker 3: from pharmaceutical drug diversion cases to captive insurance investigations. Worked

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Speaker 3: a plethora of things, and then I was fortunate enough

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Speaker 3: to join what is called the International Tax and Financial

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Speaker 3: Crimes Group. It's a specialty group of agents, some of

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Speaker 3: the best around the nation that work high wealth individuals

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Speaker 3: who are potentially offshoring their assets to evade their income taxes.

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Speaker 3: When it became a part of that group, was looking

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Speaker 3: into another investigation. It was a social media company, foreign

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Speaker 3: social media company and reviewing bank reports. In that case,

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Speaker 3: Hunter Biden was allegedly paying some Russian prostitutes that were

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Speaker 3: also a part of that social media company. So his

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Speaker 3: name came up in the bank reports. Normal course of

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Speaker 3: what I do in my normal job was like, this

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Speaker 3: is unusual. In the bank report, it cited that his

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Speaker 3: ex wife and their divorce and their divorce proceedings claimed

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Speaker 3: that her husband had tax issues got a diamond, very

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Speaker 3: rare diamond that was high value. It really led into

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Speaker 3: more kind of evidence. Started looking at the tax filings

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Speaker 3: and he had unfiled tax returns for multiple years. So

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Speaker 3: I'm like, this looks like a pretty good case. So

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Speaker 3: I elevated it up through the process and that's where

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Speaker 3: the story unfolds.

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Speaker 1: Gary, the same question for you, mean, what led you

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Speaker 1: from AmeriCorps and the Inspectors Generals off of that NSA

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Speaker 1: to IRS criminal investigations.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it's really a call of service. We

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Speaker 2: live in the greatest country on earth, and I always

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Speaker 2: wanted to do the best for this country and provide

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Speaker 2: my services this country, and federal law enforcement seemed to

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Speaker 2: fit where my educational background was and where I found

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Speaker 2: some interest in while I was in the AmeriCorps doing

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Speaker 2: volunteer work and of violence tier income tax assistance site.

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Speaker 2: Oddly enough, so I came over to IRS Criminal Investigation

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Speaker 2: in two thousand and nine. From NSA very quickly got

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Speaker 2: into the Swiss Bank program in about twenty thirteen. I

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Speaker 2: worked at a Department of Justice Tax division for over five years,

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Speaker 2: working in cases like Credit Swiss, you know, the resolved

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Speaker 2: for two point six billion, and then another Credit Swiss

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Speaker 2: for five hundred and eleven million recently, and HSBCPBRS and UBS.

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Speaker 2: So my path took me into the international route. Especially

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Speaker 2: Ziegler had already initiated this investigation when I was a

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Speaker 2: manager elsewhere, and then became the manager of the International

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Speaker 2: Tax and Financial Crimes Group, and then I became Joe

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Speaker 2: supervisor and the supervisor of the Hunter Biden investigation. That's

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Speaker 2: my path.

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Speaker 1: There's a hunter Byen investigation begat into unfold. Did that

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Speaker 1: surprise you, guys? Was that different when you're spending all

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Speaker 1: your time tracking down people who are breaking the law anyway?

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Speaker 1: So was this in any way different? Just one more

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Speaker 1: guy breaking the law?

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Speaker 3: I actually didn't even know who Hunter Biden was. I

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Speaker 3: saw the last name, I didn't know if it was

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Speaker 3: a nephew, I didn't know if it was a brother.

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Speaker 3: So name really didn't mean anything to me. It was

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Speaker 3: facts of the case, evidence that was in front of me.

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Speaker 3: It really didn't at any point early on in the

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Speaker 3: investigation it really the name Hunter Biden. I mean it

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Speaker 3: was former vice president. Really, when I started digging into

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Speaker 3: the facts, reading the news articles, reading all the information,

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Speaker 3: it really started to become a parent that all the

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Speaker 3: different things that Hunter was involved in, from Ukraine to

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Speaker 3: Romania to China. I mean, what it also said to me,

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Speaker 3: or what it also showed to me, is a lot

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Speaker 3: of the money that he was making just didn't make

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Speaker 3: any sense.

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Speaker 1: If I understand it in just straightforward practical ways, here's

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Speaker 1: the guy who's not filing his income text. That's not

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Speaker 1: a complicated idea.

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Speaker 3: Not filing his income taxes. And then you also had

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Speaker 3: for one of the early on years twenty fourteen, there

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Speaker 3: was a significant amount of money he was earning a

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Speaker 3: million dollars a year from Barisma, and that income was

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Speaker 3: a reporter on a sack return. So now that elevates

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Speaker 3: into a felony crime, a potential tax evasion.

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Speaker 1: What do you think goes on in somebody's mind that

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Speaker 1: they have a million dollars coming in and they don't

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Speaker 1: report it. You know, if you're a real crook, if

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Speaker 1: you're the MAF, if you're a drug cartel. But I mean,

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Speaker 1: here's the guy who, at least at one level was

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Speaker 1: ostensibly normal, and yet he thinks he can take a

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Speaker 1: million bucks and not have to tell anybody about it.

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Speaker 3: That's what goes into our investigations. Is an aspect of

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Speaker 3: evading your income taxes is wilfulness. What was their mensrael,

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Speaker 3: what was their mindset when they decided not to report

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Speaker 3: this income? And that's what elevates something from being a

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Speaker 3: civil issue to being criminal and into our hands. And

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Speaker 3: that's part of what we have to look at. And

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Speaker 3: I mean, like when you look at what's in someone's mind,

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Speaker 3: you look at the evidence, you look at did they

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Speaker 3: take acts to further hide their money from the IRS

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Speaker 3: so that they don't have to pay income taxes on it.

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Speaker 3: We had put forward evidence that showed that Hunter Biden

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Speaker 3: had done that.

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Speaker 1: Do you think people and that just kind of think

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Speaker 1: like they're invisible.

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Speaker 2: I think it's likely that it was purposeful to not

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Speaker 2: report that Ukraine income, right, because they knew that the

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Speaker 2: engagement of his father in Ukraine, and they knew what

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Speaker 2: that looked like, right, And It's similar to why the

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Speaker 2: Department of Justice let the statue limitations toll on the

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Speaker 2: tax charges for twenty fourteen and fifteen, which those were

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Speaker 2: the years that Ukraine Beresma income had come in. So

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Speaker 2: they were trying to hide all the aspects of information

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Speaker 2: coming from Ukraine because they knew underlying what was happening there.

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Speaker 2: And look like, we have to treat all these taxpayers

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Speaker 2: the same at the end of the day, and the

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Speaker 2: wilfulness and the knowledge that he was evading his income

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Speaker 2: taxes was clear by him pleading guilty to all the

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Speaker 2: charges that Joe Ziegeler recommended in the report in California.

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Speaker 1: Do you think that people like that just think that

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Speaker 1: they're in vulnerable.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean at some level they don't believe they're

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Speaker 2: going to get caught. And you know, it's possible that

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Speaker 2: with his connections, he thought that it was never going

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Speaker 2: to come to his front door. And the problem is

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Speaker 2: that the Department Justice did everything they could to make

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Speaker 2: that come true.

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Speaker 1: That's the second big surprise to me. And where your

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Speaker 1: books really important, because you guys, I mean, if you

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Speaker 1: hadn't had the courage to stick to what you were doing,

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Speaker 1: a lot of us would never have shown up because

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Speaker 1: they were trying so hard to bury it. Given all

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Speaker 1: the other big cases you'd handle and the kind of

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Speaker 1: crimes you've been dealing with, were you surprised by the

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Speaker 1: degree to which the Justice Department was actively trying to

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Speaker 1: discourage this case and trying to basically we cover it up.

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Speaker 2: I was very surprised, so surprised that it took us

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Speaker 2: over two years of seeing this preferential treatment and stopping

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Speaker 2: investigative steps from happening and removing political figure number one

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Speaker 2: from our documentary quests and search warrants for us to

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Speaker 2: finally get to the point where we knew the Department

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Speaker 2: of Justice was trying to hide this investigation. And their

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Speaker 2: conduct afterwards after I became a whistle blower and was

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Speaker 2: coming forward, and after especially Ziegeler did as well, shows

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Speaker 2: what their intent was.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: Their intent was to not charge. They were going to

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Speaker 2: offer a non prosecution agreement to him on May fifteenth,

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty three. And then that was right when I

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Speaker 2: was coming forward to testify in front of Congress. So

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Speaker 2: David Weiss and Delaware said to his ausa, said, we

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Speaker 2: have to get him to plead guilty. So that's when

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Speaker 2: the two misdemeanor plea deal came up, and Chriman Jason Smith,

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Speaker 2: the House Ways and Means Committee put in an amicust

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Speaker 2: brief that had about a thousand pages that were Joe

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Speaker 2: Ziegeler in mind's testimony and the evidence that we provided,

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Speaker 2: so that judge in Delaware throughout that plea deal, I've

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Speaker 2: never seen that. I'm sure it's happened, but I've never

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Speaker 2: seen that happen. This is what DJ tried to do

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Speaker 2: with the case. And then at that point when the

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Speaker 2: judge threw it out, the Department of Justice was completely stuck.

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Speaker 2: They knew we were coming forward with the evidence, so

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Speaker 2: that's when they started doing the right thing, which was

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Speaker 2: charged him with a gun charge. A jury of his

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Speaker 2: peers found him guilty, charged him in California. He pleaded

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Speaker 2: guilty to those violations. So if not for Joe Ziegeler

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Speaker 2: and I risking absolutely everything, this would have never happened.

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Speaker 2: They would have never known what Hunter bind did and

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Speaker 2: President Biden wouldn't have had to lie about pardoning him

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Speaker 2: and then pardon him.

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Speaker 1: I mean, here you are, as individuals up against a

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Speaker 1: huge machine and up against the enormous amount of political power.

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Speaker 1: How did you manage yourselves during this pretty much have

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Speaker 1: been treminiousment of stress.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, there was not only that, but we were facing

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Speaker 3: retaliation at our job, Like there were multiple points to

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Speaker 3: where we were isolated. A lot of the things that

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Speaker 3: we were trying to do, we're just not getting approved,

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Speaker 3: flat out not getting approved. I think that the way

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Speaker 3: Gary and I handled ourselves in the best way possible.

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Speaker 3: We had an extremely good group of attorneys at Empower Oversight,

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Speaker 3: my attorney Dean Zerby.

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Speaker 2: Mark Lydel.

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Speaker 3: We had a great team around us that I think

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Speaker 3: helped us work through the process. But from Gary and

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Speaker 3: I's perspective, we viewed this as a non partisan issue.

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Speaker 3: This was something that is very middle of the road.

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Speaker 3: You have a Department of Justice that's protecting one family

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Speaker 3: from any of this coming to the light of day,

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Speaker 3: and I think that they did not expect Gary and

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Speaker 3: I to be so buttoned up. And I mean we

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Speaker 3: heard from James Comer and various members of Congress that we,

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Speaker 3: who are the best witnesses whistleblowers that they have ever had,

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Speaker 3: testified in front of their committees. Everything we said stood up.

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Speaker 1: When you are working on a large system large bureau

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Speaker 1: credit system and you suddenly stand out and you're prepared

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Speaker 1: to take on the system, and you go out there

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Speaker 1: in public. It's a real risk and it creates real

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Speaker 1: tensions in the larger system. What was it like after

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Speaker 1: you had testified in front of ways and means to

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Speaker 1: go back into the building and to go back into

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Speaker 1: working with the people who realized that you were pursuing

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Speaker 1: the truth in a way that many of them had not.

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Speaker 2: It was actually split right. There's the leadership that is

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Speaker 2: entrenched in the bureaucracy right that they're just going to

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Speaker 2: stay status quo and they can't think outside the box,

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Speaker 2: and they're just really just following whatever Department Justice told

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Speaker 2: them to do. They weren't thinking what was right and wrong.

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Speaker 2: The undercurrent of age and the working folks that create

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Speaker 2: the advantage to complete our mission on a daily basis,

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Speaker 2: they were incredibly supportive, covertly right overtly. No one would

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Speaker 2: say anything, no one would provide any support. No one

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Speaker 2: was really there to help us mentally or to help

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Speaker 2: us down the past. So that was very difficult, a

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Speaker 2: very very difficult time, just being isolated and people fearing

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Speaker 2: to come out and support us.

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Speaker 1: First of one was a great tribute to your personal credibility,

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Speaker 1: in your personal sense of honor and duty. Do you

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Speaker 1: think this is a unique problem that involved the president's

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Speaker 1: son or do you think there's an underlying pattern of

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Speaker 1: hiding from law breaking and protecting powerful people who otherwise

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Speaker 1: would be in deep trouble.

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Speaker 2: I'm not tainted on the system. To me, was hopefully

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Speaker 2: an anomaly, but that's one of the things that the

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Speaker 2: process and procedures that we're going to follow moving forward

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Speaker 2: are going to ensure that no one has given preferential treatment.

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Speaker 2: Everyone goes through the process right and I won't be

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Speaker 2: bullied into not working a case that should be worked.

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Speaker 2: And we're just going to do the right things moving forward.

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Speaker 2: So are there people that do the wrong things that

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Speaker 2: don't get caught. Yeah, that happens every day. But if

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Speaker 2: they come across my desk and Joe Ziegler's desk, I

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Speaker 2: can absolutely guarantee you they'll be treated the same as

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Speaker 2: any other person that comes in front of our desk.

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Speaker 2: This engaged in wrongdoing, and we're going to make sure

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Speaker 2: that the right thing's done.

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Speaker 1: Given the lessons we're learning from this, Congress should do

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Speaker 1: to strengthen the protection of whistleblowers and to strengthen the

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Speaker 1: ability to surface these things and bring them in public position.

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Speaker 2: Senator Grassley has been fantastic. He's the patron saint of

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Speaker 2: whistleblowers and he's a guy that supports people coming forward

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Speaker 2: and getting the protections that they need that become whistleblowers

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Speaker 2: and the protections. You think that there are protections for whistleblowers,

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Speaker 2: but the actual process and procedures of whistleblowers or that

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Speaker 2: you blow the whistle and then if you retaliate against

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Speaker 2: or you're fired, you're retaliated against and you're fired, and

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Speaker 2: the law doesn't allow for those proactive protections of whistleblowers.

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Speaker 2: We have to get a team together as whistleblowers and

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Speaker 2: we have to fight and prove that we're retaliated against. So, yeah,

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Speaker 2: we're working with Chairman Smith's office and we're providing some

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Speaker 2: of our lessons learned from our perspective on strengthening whistleblower laws.

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Speaker 2: That's really what this book is all about. This is

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Speaker 2: why we're really kind of taking an additional risk here

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Speaker 2: as whistleblowers. We want to support future whistleblowers, current whistleblowers.

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Speaker 2: So all the profits from this book end up going

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Speaker 2: to the nonprofit that supports whistleblowers. So that's our new

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Speaker 2: mission is to help whistleblowers come forward and get the

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Speaker 2: protections that they need to protect themselves.

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Speaker 1: Senator Grasse has really had an amazing impact. Hasn't he

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Speaker 1: really creating a much more practical and less dangerous environment

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Speaker 1: for whistleblowers than existed twenty or thirty years coming. Here's

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Speaker 1: a guy who's in his nineties, still goes to farms

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Speaker 1: every weekend, visits all ninety nine counties in Iowa every year,

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Speaker 1: is very tough and been very firm. Did you find

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Speaker 1: working with him sort of an interesting experience?

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Speaker 2: He was incredible. He's so read in and he is

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Speaker 2: so steadfast and his protection of whistle blowers and supporting whistleblowers.

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Speaker 2: I mean, he just an amazing individual, amazing person, and

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Speaker 2: I can't say enough good things about him. Joe, what's

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Speaker 2: your perspective? You look at the back of the book.

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Speaker 3: I mean he put his words, he put his mouth

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Speaker 3: to support our book, and I think Gary said this.

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Speaker 3: I want to mention this. I think that this is

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Speaker 3: so important. Gary and I are not going to make

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Speaker 3: a cent off this book. We're still current federal employees.

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Speaker 3: So one thing that Gary and I and I think

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Speaker 3: that this has often overlooked is that we want to

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Speaker 3: be a support mechanism for future and current whistleblowers. We

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Speaker 3: want to show people, here is the right path to follow,

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Speaker 3: Here's what you can do to bring your truth to

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Speaker 3: the light of day. And that's why I think it's

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Speaker 3: so important that the proceeds from this book are going

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Speaker 3: to the nonprofit so that we can have money in there.

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Speaker 3: And not only that, but the book really details what

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Speaker 3: we went through the investigation, what was going on our

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Speaker 3: personal life, and it really is a blueprint for people

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Speaker 3: to see what a whistleblower is feeling as they're going

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Speaker 3: through this entire process. While you have this other story

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Speaker 3: about the Biden family and what they were involved in.

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Speaker 1: Seems to me that what you all did would not

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Speaker 1: have happened without you, without people courageously taking on the

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Speaker 1: whole system. They were just going to cover it up.

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Speaker 3: They did not expect Joe Zigler, Gary Shapley to be

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Speaker 3: involved in this investigation. It was apparent very early on

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Speaker 3: that Department of Justice wanted to investigate the case but

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Speaker 3: really didn't want to charge Hunter Biden. At the end

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Speaker 3: of the day, that was by their actions, by what

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Speaker 3: they were saying. You look at the terms that some

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Speaker 3: of the prosecutors were saying optics. I don't know anywhere

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Speaker 3: in the Department of Justice manual where it says optics

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Speaker 3: should play into how you move forward with an investigation

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Speaker 3: or how you make decisions. And it was very apparent

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Speaker 3: that the Delaware US Attorney's Office David Weiss, were more

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Speaker 3: concerned with their reputations how they looked, compared to actually

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Speaker 3: working a proper investigation.

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Speaker 1: Ironically, that kind of blew up on him, didn't it.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely they ended up looking bad, not good.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well, you know, it was a hard burden to

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Speaker 2: get there. David Weiss never imagined or Meyrick Garland never

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Speaker 2: imagined in one hundred years that Joe and I would

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Speaker 2: have figured out what the legal process was to be

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Speaker 2: able to put tax information in the public sphere legally

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Speaker 2: with an active investigation ongoing. It's never been done before,

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Speaker 2: and they knew that, so their risk was very low.

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Speaker 2: They just assumed that we do something wrong and then

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Speaker 2: we could get smeared and fired and discredited and all

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Speaker 2: the way into the middle of twenty twenty three. They're

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Speaker 2: trying to make the case disappear. This wouldn't have happened

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Speaker 2: without Joe and I and and I don't mean to

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Speaker 2: be pretentious, but it's just the facts.

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Speaker 3: What's so terrifying is that when I decided to become

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Speaker 3: a whistleblower and we were removed from the investigation, that

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Speaker 3: was my breaking point. I decided to come forward, and

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Speaker 3: I actually wrote a heartfelt email to the Commissioner of

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Speaker 3: the IRS at the time, Danny Warfol, basically saying that

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Speaker 3: this is a huge risky agency. You don't understand what

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Speaker 3: the repercussions of this are. And it really was something

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Speaker 3: that I thought that the commissioner would want to read.

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Speaker 3: That come to find out later that the Deputy commissioner

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Speaker 3: at the time actually deleted that email from his inbox.

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Speaker 3: And I had also come to find out that that

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Speaker 3: email was sent to Department of Justice, to our internal

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Speaker 3: ig to investigate me for doing something wrong. So here

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Speaker 3: is this agent trying to do the right thing, and

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Speaker 3: they're doing exactly what you shouldn't do, retaliating against that whistleblower.

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Speaker 1: You will really illustrate the American system at its best,

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Speaker 1: that courageous people willing to take real risk can take

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Speaker 1: on the entire system and force it to confront a

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Speaker 1: problem that it was desperately trying to avoid. And in a sense,

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Speaker 1: it seems to me that's a tremendous comment on the

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Speaker 1: ultimate potential for citizens to influence their government and to

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Speaker 1: take on corruption and to take on the powers of beaming.

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Speaker 1: Is that too positive and optimistic exploration?

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Speaker 2: Not from my perspective. Look, thank you for saying that

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Speaker 2: this federal government is not perfect, not every employee is perfect,

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Speaker 2: not every process is perfect, But there are people like

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Speaker 2: Joe and I out there. We are here for public service.

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Speaker 2: We are here to make this place better. In the

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Speaker 2: bureaucracy wants to fight those improvements day in and day out.

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Speaker 2: But even going through this process, I'll never be the same.

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Speaker 2: I probably took ten years off my life, if not more,

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Speaker 2: with the stress that happened. But with all that being said,

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Speaker 2: I would do it again if I had to. And

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Speaker 2: I'm optimistic that we can turn this around. Maybe not

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Speaker 2: make it perfect, but we can make improvements here that

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Speaker 2: the American people will see and will have more confidence

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Speaker 2: in the irs and their government, and I hope that

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Speaker 2: we're beacons for that for the American people.

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Speaker 1: When you look at all the cases you two have

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Speaker 1: handled in your careers, to what accent are these kind

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Speaker 1: of cases like the Hunter Biden case and anomaly and

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Speaker 1: to what extent in general does the system work pretty well?

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Speaker 3: That's a great question. I mean Gary and I as

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Speaker 3: senior advisors, I mean what we're trying to figure out

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Speaker 3: is is this a systemic issue or is this an anomaly?

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Speaker 3: What can we do to create further guardrails, potential policy

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Speaker 3: that is going to treat every taxpayer the same, that

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Speaker 3: is going to ensure that the right thing is done

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Speaker 3: when these investigation, these audits, whatever the IRS may be

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Speaker 3: doing are done. Like Gary said before, I hope this

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Speaker 3: is an anomaly. But what I'm very concerned with is

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Speaker 3: you have a lot of bureaucrats, career government employees who

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Speaker 3: are sitting in positions who have tremendous power, and when

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Speaker 3: you have that, obviously they lean one side of the

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Speaker 3: aisle left or right, and they're having a huge influence

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Speaker 3: on what is done specifically at Department of Justice. And

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Speaker 3: what I've been encouraged by is through this administration is

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Speaker 3: that they're trying to take a a hard stance and

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Speaker 3: an effort to clean house, to prevent some of these things,

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Speaker 3: to make our government as a political when you work

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Speaker 3: with Department of Justice, when you work with the irs

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Speaker 3: as possible.

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Speaker 1: Maybe I'm reading too much into this, but you all

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Speaker 1: stand for the depth as we approach our two hundred

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Speaker 1: and fiftieth anniversary as a country. But you sort of

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Speaker 1: really along with sender Grass. They stand for the notion

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Speaker 1: that citizens have the right to take on the biggest machine,

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Speaker 1: the most corrupt politician, the most powerful people, and that

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Speaker 1: the larger American system in the end will rally to

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Speaker 1: the citizens if they have enough courage and will in

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Speaker 1: fact find a way to make things work, which we're seeing.

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Speaker 1: I think in the Hunter Biden case.

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Speaker 2: We are examples of why this country's the greatest country owner.

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Speaker 2: Right Like our forefathers created a system that was meant

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Speaker 2: to move and to be flexible and to change and

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Speaker 2: to take on new opinions and ideas, and it's all

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Speaker 2: driven by the people, right And I think that one

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Speaker 2: of the things that gave me strength through this whole

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Speaker 2: process was that I knew I was doing the right thing.

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Speaker 2: I knew that I was coming forward for the right reasons,

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Speaker 2: and I knew that the American people were going to

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Speaker 2: see the things that the government was trying to hide

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Speaker 2: in their dark places, right, And I was hoping that

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Speaker 2: I was the light, or I was bringing some of

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Speaker 2: the light forward so that the American people can say, look, like,

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Speaker 2: you know what, maybe I don't agree with those guys,

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Speaker 2: but they came forward, and if someone else doesn't agree

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Speaker 2: with something, they can come forward following what Joe and

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Speaker 2: Gary did and really affect positive change and keep this

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Speaker 2: country the great country that it is.

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Speaker 1: I have to ask one other things which I've never understood,

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Speaker 1: and that is the whole process. Hunter Biden forgets his laptop,

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Speaker 1: but this place they got who's repaired it finally gets

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Speaker 1: started of waiting, and so the laptop gets surfaced in

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Speaker 1: a way that it's really worthy of being in a movie.

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Speaker 1: And then the system tries to pretend the laptop doesn't exist.

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Speaker 1: There's this astonishing effort, including fifty one senior intelligence officers

436
00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:17,000
Speaker 1: who deliberately lie about the nature of the laptop. So

437
00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:19,560
Speaker 1: if you look at the effort to cover up the

438
00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:25,560
Speaker 1: mistake that Hunter made, it's a remarkable story. When did

439
00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:29,879
Speaker 1: you all become convinced that the laptop was real and

440
00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:32,720
Speaker 1: that it was at the heart of helping us understand

441
00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:33,840
Speaker 1: what was going on?

442
00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:38,200
Speaker 3: Well, I mean, as the lead investigator on the case,

443
00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:41,000
Speaker 3: it was extremely early on. It was a meeting with

444
00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:44,200
Speaker 3: the FBI to where they said, hey, we know about

445
00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:48,400
Speaker 3: this laptop. It's at this laptop prepare shop. And then

446
00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:52,679
Speaker 3: that's when we obtained the laptop and through my search warrant,

447
00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:55,679
Speaker 3: we were able to look at the contents of what

448
00:26:55,880 --> 00:26:59,320
Speaker 3: was on that laptop. And there were multiple search warrants

449
00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:02,240
Speaker 3: that were done through this investigation. And I think that

450
00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:05,840
Speaker 3: that's one thing that is overlooked in this is there

451
00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:09,159
Speaker 3: was also a media cover up. There was a media

452
00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:14,280
Speaker 3: censorship that they didn't want this. It was discredit, discredit, discredit,

453
00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:20,720
Speaker 3: it's misinformation. When this was valid information, they couldn't dispute it,

454
00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:24,760
Speaker 3: and the media companies went to great lengths to suppress

455
00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:27,760
Speaker 3: the information. Almost like they went to great lengths to

456
00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:30,399
Speaker 3: try and suppress the information. I can tell you it

457
00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:33,280
Speaker 3: was a struggle for Gary and I when we were

458
00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:35,639
Speaker 3: coming through the whistleblower process. We had a ton of

459
00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:38,520
Speaker 3: media interest in it, but what was disappointing for me

460
00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:41,840
Speaker 3: is it was a limited amount of media interest on

461
00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:44,800
Speaker 3: the left side of politics, and we tried to do

462
00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:48,480
Speaker 3: a concerted effort to be as middle centrists of the road,

463
00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:51,800
Speaker 3: going on different media platforms to get the story out.

464
00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:55,600
Speaker 1: But you felt pretty clearly early on that this was

465
00:27:55,640 --> 00:27:56,240
Speaker 1: the real deal.

466
00:27:57,160 --> 00:27:59,679
Speaker 2: We knew laptop was real very early on, especially in

467
00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:02,160
Speaker 2: Zeke knew it and he confirmed it very early on.

468
00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:05,920
Speaker 2: Obviously you're like, well, how can you and Joe sit

469
00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:09,200
Speaker 2: there and see these fifty one intel folks say these

470
00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:11,280
Speaker 2: things in the media and put their names on this

471
00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:14,679
Speaker 2: letter if the record shows that at that time I

472
00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:17,520
Speaker 2: was sending emails to the Delaware US Attorney's office saying

473
00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:19,480
Speaker 2: that we had to have discussions about this, and it

474
00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:22,879
Speaker 2: prompted a very long meeting about the laptop that I

475
00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:26,840
Speaker 2: documented in detail and delivered that to House Ways and

476
00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:29,639
Speaker 2: Means Committee, who made that document public. And it clearly

477
00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:32,639
Speaker 2: shows that it was Hunter Biden's laptop, that none of

478
00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:35,520
Speaker 2: the information on there was manipulated. And these are one

479
00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:38,400
Speaker 2: of the things that helped confirm, like other journalists like

480
00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:42,320
Speaker 2: Randon Devine who was working the laptop story, that helped

481
00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:45,400
Speaker 2: them confirm that it was accurate. The second was is

482
00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:48,600
Speaker 2: that because Joe and I came forward, Hunter Biden got

483
00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:52,560
Speaker 2: charged with that gun charge in Delaware. And what did

484
00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:55,120
Speaker 2: the government, What did the Department of Justice enter into

485
00:28:55,120 --> 00:29:00,280
Speaker 2: evidence in that gun trial that laptop? It was absolutely his.

486
00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:03,400
Speaker 2: They knew it was his whole time, and they allowed

487
00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:07,240
Speaker 2: the media narrative and censorship to occur to try to

488
00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:07,880
Speaker 2: cover that up.

489
00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:11,120
Speaker 1: My sense, I mean even in politics for a fairly

490
00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:15,080
Speaker 1: length of time. If the truth about the laptop had

491
00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:18,320
Speaker 1: come out before the election in twenty I think that

492
00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:21,720
Speaker 1: Biden would have lost badly because the laptop had so

493
00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:25,520
Speaker 1: many different things in it that were crazy, particularly the

494
00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:28,440
Speaker 1: relationship with Ukraine, that were just indefensible.

495
00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:31,880
Speaker 2: There are many items that I believe were run afoul

496
00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:36,520
Speaker 2: of the election the rules of thumb as Department Justice

497
00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:39,440
Speaker 2: of Meeric Garland call it right. There were search warrants

498
00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:42,760
Speaker 2: in June twenty twenty, physical search warrants of Joe Biden's

499
00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:46,440
Speaker 2: guesthouse and some other locations that they didn't allow happen.

500
00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:48,960
Speaker 2: And then they basically gave us a cease and desist

501
00:29:49,040 --> 00:29:54,480
Speaker 2: from all investigative activity and the election meddling memorandum signed

502
00:29:54,520 --> 00:29:57,960
Speaker 2: by Merrick Garland clearly states that you can't choose to

503
00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:01,960
Speaker 2: or fail to take investiga negative steps for the purpose

504
00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:07,000
Speaker 2: of affecting in reality or in appearance, any election. And

505
00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:12,440
Speaker 2: they didn't let us continue this investigation six seven months

506
00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:15,600
Speaker 2: before the election even occurred. And that's why our day

507
00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:17,800
Speaker 2: of action where we actually went out and attempted to

508
00:30:18,040 --> 00:30:21,680
Speaker 2: interview Hunter, Biden and others, that occurred on December eighth

509
00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:24,479
Speaker 2: of twenty twenty. It was held. It was held, It

510
00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:27,480
Speaker 2: was held until after the election, and then they even

511
00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:29,680
Speaker 2: held it a couple of weeks after the election because

512
00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:32,400
Speaker 2: they said, oh, it's a contested election, so we can't

513
00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:36,040
Speaker 2: do it. So then of course FBI tips off Secret

514
00:30:36,120 --> 00:30:40,520
Speaker 2: Service and the Biden transition team about these impending interviews

515
00:30:40,560 --> 00:30:43,640
Speaker 2: and how that's not obstruction. I have no idea.

516
00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:47,120
Speaker 1: When you put your career on the line in some ways,

517
00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:49,320
Speaker 1: your life on the line, when you do what you

518
00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:54,560
Speaker 1: believe is absolutely true, and you really make progress, and

519
00:30:54,600 --> 00:31:00,560
Speaker 1: then President Biden steps in, doesn't just pardon Hunter but

520
00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:03,480
Speaker 1: issues this very strange pardon for everybody who's not even

521
00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:07,600
Speaker 1: charged with anything. I mean, as people who've tried to

522
00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:10,760
Speaker 1: enforce the law, what was your reaction to.

523
00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:15,680
Speaker 3: That, so havn't worked this investigation since twenty eighteen. I

524
00:31:15,720 --> 00:31:18,120
Speaker 3: really didn't have any reaction to it. I mean, that's

525
00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:20,880
Speaker 3: the president. He has the ability to do that, and

526
00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:24,280
Speaker 3: that's his right in the Office of the Presidency. What

527
00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:28,640
Speaker 3: I found very comical was that Gary and I to

528
00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:34,600
Speaker 3: government employees, continually changed the narrative from Joe Biden and

529
00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:37,880
Speaker 3: the White House. If you look back at I never

530
00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:42,480
Speaker 3: had any involvement with my son's businesses to I never

531
00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:46,040
Speaker 3: benefited financially from my son's businesses. I never talked to

532
00:31:46,080 --> 00:31:49,120
Speaker 3: my son about his businesses. The narrative continued to shift

533
00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:52,360
Speaker 3: as Gary and I continue to go through the Whistlelower

534
00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:56,200
Speaker 3: process provide additional evidence to House Ways and Means Committee,

535
00:31:56,320 --> 00:31:59,080
Speaker 3: so that narrative continued to shift. Same thing with the

536
00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:02,800
Speaker 3: partons I will never pardon my son. It's fought out,

537
00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:06,360
Speaker 3: no pardoning my son, the preemptive pardon that has never

538
00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:10,040
Speaker 3: been done before. And then ultimately they changed that narrative

539
00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:12,400
Speaker 3: and now they do it. So what I found was

540
00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:16,640
Speaker 3: very comical that we could have by us speaking the truth,

541
00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:20,600
Speaker 3: that the Presidency of the United States had to change

542
00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:24,400
Speaker 3: their narrative continually throughout the four years of his presidency.

543
00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:27,880
Speaker 1: Of course, that does fit the Emerson vision that one

544
00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:31,160
Speaker 1: man in the truth is a majority and that's the

545
00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:33,280
Speaker 1: best of the ideal American system.

546
00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:35,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's correct, And the pardon didn't have a lot

547
00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:38,160
Speaker 2: of effect on us, right, that was up to the president.

548
00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:40,520
Speaker 2: It was a power afforded to the president. But we

549
00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:43,880
Speaker 2: were successful here. You know, we brought to the American

550
00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:46,320
Speaker 2: people to put in front of the American people what

551
00:32:46,600 --> 00:32:49,840
Speaker 2: Department Justice was trying to do. They were trying to

552
00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:53,480
Speaker 2: give this preferential treatment and to hide the conduct of

553
00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:58,120
Speaker 2: a very powerful family from coming forward. And if we

554
00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:00,680
Speaker 2: didn't come forward, the American people would know it, we

555
00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:03,680
Speaker 2: wouldn't learn the lessons that we learned to try to

556
00:33:03,720 --> 00:33:07,520
Speaker 2: create a better processing system. Now, so the pardon didn't

557
00:33:07,520 --> 00:33:09,880
Speaker 2: really affect us. I think we were still very successful

558
00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:12,920
Speaker 2: and proven correct here, and I think that that's the

559
00:33:12,960 --> 00:33:14,880
Speaker 2: basis for all a bunch of positive change.

560
00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:20,880
Speaker 1: Now, what I'm struck with is that you two are

561
00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:25,800
Speaker 1: literally classically American. There's this very deep tradition in the

562
00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:29,520
Speaker 1: American system that's just about the point that the whole

563
00:33:29,560 --> 00:33:33,520
Speaker 1: thing is totally screwed up. Somebody has the courage to

564
00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:38,000
Speaker 1: step out, take huge risks and somehow in the end

565
00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:41,920
Speaker 1: the truth wins. And I think what's fascinating is that

566
00:33:42,040 --> 00:33:46,760
Speaker 1: your book, the Whistleblowers versus the big Guy, two special agents,

567
00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:51,280
Speaker 1: the Biden crime family, and a corrupt eurocracy. This is

568
00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:53,800
Speaker 1: in a way a perfect book for our two hundred

569
00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:57,560
Speaker 1: and fiftieth birthday, because it is the deepest American tradition

570
00:33:58,520 --> 00:34:01,840
Speaker 1: that one person in the truth is the majority, and

571
00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:04,480
Speaker 1: that if you have the courage to stick to it,

572
00:34:05,520 --> 00:34:08,160
Speaker 1: that in the end the system will drift towards the

573
00:34:08,200 --> 00:34:11,799
Speaker 1: truth and away from the lies. And you two personify that,

574
00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:15,000
Speaker 1: and you've paid a real price for it. And e

575
00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:17,960
Speaker 1: every American citizen hoose the two of you a debt

576
00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:21,840
Speaker 1: of gratitude for the commitment and the courage Theyve Champ.

577
00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:24,160
Speaker 2: Thank you so much. I really appreciate that.

578
00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:25,839
Speaker 3: Yeah, thank you so much.

579
00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:32,200
Speaker 1: Thank you to my guest Gary Shapley and Joseph Siegler.

580
00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:36,080
Speaker 1: News World is produced by Gingish Threet sixty and iHeartMedia.

581
00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:41,520
Speaker 1: Our executive producer is Guarzie Sloan. Our researcher is Rachel Peterson.

582
00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:45,200
Speaker 1: The artwork for the show was created by Steve Penley

583
00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:49,080
Speaker 1: Special thanks to the team at Gingers Sweet sixty. If

584
00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:51,239
Speaker 1: you've been enjoying news World, I hope you'll go to

585
00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:54,560
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts and both rate us with five stars and

586
00:34:54,640 --> 00:34:57,120
Speaker 1: give us a review so others can learn what it's

587
00:34:57,120 --> 00:35:00,640
Speaker 1: all about. Join me on sub sect at English three

588
00:35:00,719 --> 00:35:04,760
Speaker 1: sixty dot net. I'm new Genglish. This is Neutrop