1 00:00:01,560 --> 00:00:04,640 Speaker 1: Welcome to Wellness on MASS. I'm doctor Nicole Saffire. Today 2 00:00:04,680 --> 00:00:06,480 Speaker 1: we are going to take a closer look at the 3 00:00:06,640 --> 00:00:11,400 Speaker 1: childhood vaccine schedule. It's a topic that's becoming increasingly complex 4 00:00:11,520 --> 00:00:14,120 Speaker 1: in recent years. When I was in medical school, you know, 5 00:00:14,200 --> 00:00:16,680 Speaker 1: it's not really something we talked about. We knew it existed, 6 00:00:16,920 --> 00:00:19,079 Speaker 1: and that was it kind of settle science. You don't 7 00:00:19,079 --> 00:00:21,360 Speaker 1: really talk much about. It just is what it is. 8 00:00:22,040 --> 00:00:25,560 Speaker 1: I have learned more about the childhood vaccine schedule over 9 00:00:25,560 --> 00:00:28,200 Speaker 1: the last five years than I think I even spent 10 00:00:28,560 --> 00:00:31,920 Speaker 1: for the preceding fifteen twenty years of my career. But 11 00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:37,400 Speaker 1: here's this situation. Nationally, vaccination rates among children are absolutely slipping. 12 00:00:37,920 --> 00:00:41,880 Speaker 1: CDC data shows that kindergarten coverage for Measles moms and 13 00:00:41,960 --> 00:00:46,120 Speaker 1: rubella that MMR vaccine has fallen to about ninety three percent. 14 00:00:46,800 --> 00:00:49,839 Speaker 1: That's down from over ninety five percent, which is our 15 00:00:49,880 --> 00:00:52,880 Speaker 1: target just a few years ago. Now, I know two 16 00:00:52,880 --> 00:00:55,200 Speaker 1: percent doesn't really sound like that big of a deal, 17 00:00:55,600 --> 00:01:00,320 Speaker 1: but I can tell you that two percent difference it's 18 00:01:00,320 --> 00:01:03,440 Speaker 1: of hundreds of thousands of children, and it's enough to 19 00:01:03,520 --> 00:01:08,400 Speaker 1: fuel localized outbreaks, and that's a problem. At the same time, also, 20 00:01:08,640 --> 00:01:12,960 Speaker 1: vaccination exemptions for kindergarteners have reached the highest levels ever 21 00:01:13,000 --> 00:01:16,080 Speaker 1: recorded in the United States. Now, there are many reasons 22 00:01:16,120 --> 00:01:19,720 Speaker 1: behind this, the lingering fallout of the COVID nineteen mandates, 23 00:01:19,800 --> 00:01:22,880 Speaker 1: which is we all know are a complete disaster and 24 00:01:23,319 --> 00:01:29,360 Speaker 1: uncalled for, increased online misinformation, and just the growing political movement, 25 00:01:29,880 --> 00:01:32,759 Speaker 1: and maybe it's not even political, just the growing movement 26 00:01:33,280 --> 00:01:38,000 Speaker 1: questioning whether mandates belong in schools at all. Florida recently 27 00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:41,400 Speaker 1: announced its intent to remove all vaccine requirements for students, 28 00:01:41,920 --> 00:01:45,600 Speaker 1: this fueling and sparking the national debate about the balance 29 00:01:45,640 --> 00:01:50,760 Speaker 1: between individual choice and community safety. I'll share something personal 30 00:01:50,800 --> 00:01:54,000 Speaker 1: here because I'm an open book. I've always tried to 31 00:01:54,000 --> 00:01:57,280 Speaker 1: be that way as I've entered the public space. My 32 00:01:57,400 --> 00:01:59,600 Speaker 1: own one of my own kiddos, I have three sons, 33 00:01:59,640 --> 00:02:03,000 Speaker 1: you know, one of my own kids in middle school, 34 00:02:03,400 --> 00:02:07,400 Speaker 1: when it came to whooping cough, was fully vaccinated and 35 00:02:07,480 --> 00:02:11,320 Speaker 1: even had been recently boosted. Well, he got whooping cough. 36 00:02:11,680 --> 00:02:13,520 Speaker 1: I mean, it was kind of shocking to us, but 37 00:02:13,560 --> 00:02:15,920 Speaker 1: he got whooping cough. We only knew it because he 38 00:02:16,000 --> 00:02:20,639 Speaker 1: had this characteristic cough that I read about, I heard 39 00:02:20,720 --> 00:02:23,839 Speaker 1: about all throughout my career, but I had actually never 40 00:02:23,919 --> 00:02:26,839 Speaker 1: heard the cough myself. But as soon as I heard 41 00:02:26,840 --> 00:02:29,000 Speaker 1: it in him, my husband and also a doctor, and 42 00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:31,600 Speaker 1: I we looked at each other were like, no, could 43 00:02:31,600 --> 00:02:35,720 Speaker 1: it be sure? Was took him to the pediatrician. 44 00:02:35,440 --> 00:02:36,000 Speaker 2: And it was. 45 00:02:37,040 --> 00:02:40,080 Speaker 1: But that's what it had me thinking that night. You know, 46 00:02:40,120 --> 00:02:42,200 Speaker 1: I was a little bit panicked because when you hear 47 00:02:42,200 --> 00:02:44,640 Speaker 1: about whooping cough, you're concerned about it. I mean, we 48 00:02:44,720 --> 00:02:47,720 Speaker 1: get vaccinated, we don't talk much about whooping cough anymore. 49 00:02:48,240 --> 00:02:51,320 Speaker 1: So I found myself going into a deep literature dive 50 00:02:52,240 --> 00:02:56,240 Speaker 1: all about protessis, which is, you know what causes whooping cough? 51 00:02:57,360 --> 00:03:02,320 Speaker 1: And you know, is it dangerous? In my middle school son, 52 00:03:03,240 --> 00:03:05,280 Speaker 1: why did he get this right after he had just 53 00:03:05,320 --> 00:03:09,240 Speaker 1: been boosted for whooping cough? And it really kind of 54 00:03:09,240 --> 00:03:11,920 Speaker 1: pushed me to look just more critically at how effective 55 00:03:11,960 --> 00:03:14,720 Speaker 1: some of the vaccines still recommended for children really are, 56 00:03:15,800 --> 00:03:18,760 Speaker 1: especially as we know immunity from these vaccines and boosters 57 00:03:18,800 --> 00:03:22,200 Speaker 1: can weigh over time. So when it comes to whooping cough, 58 00:03:22,320 --> 00:03:27,240 Speaker 1: the CDC surveillance data shows about about one percent of 59 00:03:27,320 --> 00:03:31,760 Speaker 1: reported cases in adolescents like those eight eleven to eighteen 60 00:03:31,840 --> 00:03:37,120 Speaker 1: years old, actually required hospitalization. Now, in contrast, fifty percent 61 00:03:37,200 --> 00:03:41,520 Speaker 1: of infants less than six months were hospitalized, So one 62 00:03:41,600 --> 00:03:47,480 Speaker 1: percent of teens adolescents being hospitalized with whooping cough fifty percent. 63 00:03:47,600 --> 00:03:50,800 Speaker 1: Half of the kiddo's, the little ones who are infected 64 00:03:50,840 --> 00:03:54,880 Speaker 1: are in the hospital. Obviously, there's different risks with these populations. 65 00:03:55,520 --> 00:03:59,240 Speaker 1: So whooping cough also nicknamed one hundred day cough, it's 66 00:03:59,240 --> 00:04:01,960 Speaker 1: certainly curate. Let me tell you, my son coughed for 67 00:04:02,000 --> 00:04:04,720 Speaker 1: a very long time. This cough can last like six 68 00:04:04,760 --> 00:04:08,280 Speaker 1: to ten weeks, but really without any long term, long 69 00:04:08,360 --> 00:04:11,480 Speaker 1: lasting effects, just this annoying cough, which by the way, 70 00:04:11,520 --> 00:04:14,600 Speaker 1: is not contagious. It's just an annoying cough. And in 71 00:04:14,640 --> 00:04:20,560 Speaker 1: the US, death and adolescence are extremely rare, with CDC 72 00:04:20,800 --> 00:04:25,799 Speaker 1: data showing no deaths in adolescents. And it's really all 73 00:04:26,000 --> 00:04:29,080 Speaker 1: in just these young kiddos too young to be vaccinated. 74 00:04:29,640 --> 00:04:35,320 Speaker 1: So I was able to sleep soundly that night because 75 00:04:35,320 --> 00:04:38,119 Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, okay, well my son has whooping cough, 76 00:04:38,279 --> 00:04:40,480 Speaker 1: but he's going to be just fine. That was a 77 00:04:40,520 --> 00:04:43,240 Speaker 1: really good thing for me to feel. I didn't have 78 00:04:43,320 --> 00:04:46,400 Speaker 1: to be like, oh my gosh, thankfully my son is vaccinated. 79 00:04:46,400 --> 00:04:49,080 Speaker 1: He's going to be fine. Just my son with this 80 00:04:49,240 --> 00:04:52,640 Speaker 1: infection is going to be fine. That certainly gives comfort 81 00:04:52,720 --> 00:04:57,680 Speaker 1: to a parent. So, but my research really underscore is 82 00:04:57,760 --> 00:05:00,960 Speaker 1: kind of an important truth. Obviously, vaccines are not one 83 00:05:01,000 --> 00:05:04,200 Speaker 1: size fits all, because when you look at some of 84 00:05:04,240 --> 00:05:09,360 Speaker 1: the other illnesses that we vaccinate for, like measles or 85 00:05:09,400 --> 00:05:12,640 Speaker 1: even chicken pox or flu, there's a much higher rate 86 00:05:12,800 --> 00:05:18,839 Speaker 1: of hospitalization in teens than say whooping cough. So I 87 00:05:18,960 --> 00:05:22,000 Speaker 1: wanted to have a conversation with someone who, like me, 88 00:05:23,200 --> 00:05:26,080 Speaker 1: questions the vaccine schedule. And by the way, questioning the 89 00:05:26,160 --> 00:05:29,800 Speaker 1: vaccine schedule, that doesn't mean you're anti vacs. In fact, 90 00:05:29,920 --> 00:05:33,160 Speaker 1: your pro vaccine. You can recognize the importance of vaccines, 91 00:05:33,400 --> 00:05:35,640 Speaker 1: but you can also look at them critically, especially as 92 00:05:35,640 --> 00:05:39,360 Speaker 1: we're facing a crisis within our country of declining vaccine rates. 93 00:05:39,440 --> 00:05:42,480 Speaker 1: We have to figure out what's causing this and what 94 00:05:42,520 --> 00:05:44,720 Speaker 1: can we do to move forward so that people can 95 00:05:44,760 --> 00:05:47,880 Speaker 1: actually trust the public health process all over again. So 96 00:05:48,040 --> 00:05:51,080 Speaker 1: to unpack all of this, I sat down with doctor 97 00:05:51,120 --> 00:05:54,960 Speaker 1: Monique Johannan, senior fellow at Independent Women and author of 98 00:05:55,000 --> 00:05:59,400 Speaker 1: the newly published Rethinking Vaccine Policy, A Case for Humility, 99 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:07,080 Speaker 1: Vision and parental partnerships door Johannon, I have to admit 100 00:06:07,320 --> 00:06:11,800 Speaker 1: I went through your entire Rethinking Vaccine Policy report, and 101 00:06:12,080 --> 00:06:14,240 Speaker 1: I'll be honest, I thought it was very well written. 102 00:06:14,680 --> 00:06:19,480 Speaker 1: I work in academics myself, so obviously I appreach. I 103 00:06:19,560 --> 00:06:23,400 Speaker 1: really appreciate when people bring forth the data they link 104 00:06:23,480 --> 00:06:26,880 Speaker 1: to all their references instead of speaking in hyperbole, and 105 00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:30,120 Speaker 1: that is exactly what you did with this report. Can 106 00:06:30,160 --> 00:06:32,360 Speaker 1: you kind of just talk a little bit about why 107 00:06:32,440 --> 00:06:35,359 Speaker 1: you felt compelled to put this together? Sure? 108 00:06:35,680 --> 00:06:37,559 Speaker 2: First of all, Nicole, thank you so much for having 109 00:06:37,600 --> 00:06:42,279 Speaker 2: me here today. My background really is I've spent twenty 110 00:06:42,360 --> 00:06:46,440 Speaker 2: years writing evidence based medicine guidelines for a variety of organizations, 111 00:06:46,600 --> 00:06:50,760 Speaker 2: and the last place I did that was Change Healthcare, 112 00:06:50,800 --> 00:06:53,839 Speaker 2: where I wrote the guidelines for COVID in twenty twenty 113 00:06:54,320 --> 00:06:57,520 Speaker 2: and I really saw a disconnect that in the literature 114 00:06:57,640 --> 00:07:01,920 Speaker 2: versus what I was hearing health authorities saying at that time. 115 00:07:02,400 --> 00:07:05,200 Speaker 2: That's what led to my initial specific interest in them. 116 00:07:05,800 --> 00:07:08,400 Speaker 2: But the other piece is that I'm currently the CMO 117 00:07:08,560 --> 00:07:12,080 Speaker 2: for an AI healthcare company, and when I look at 118 00:07:12,080 --> 00:07:15,720 Speaker 2: our healthcare system and vaccines in particular, I don't think 119 00:07:15,720 --> 00:07:18,880 Speaker 2: we're optimizing technology and I do think that a lot 120 00:07:18,920 --> 00:07:21,720 Speaker 2: of the challenges we have with vaccines in the vaccine 121 00:07:21,760 --> 00:07:25,080 Speaker 2: schedule would be addressed with technology. So it's a combination 122 00:07:25,200 --> 00:07:29,040 Speaker 2: of my background, that experience, and frankly an administration with 123 00:07:29,120 --> 00:07:31,960 Speaker 2: a will that I thought was actually going to be 124 00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:35,080 Speaker 2: willing to consider looking at this with threshold. 125 00:07:35,840 --> 00:07:38,360 Speaker 1: Well, and you know right now, a lot of the conversation, 126 00:07:38,720 --> 00:07:40,720 Speaker 1: you know, I like to talk about the pendulum swinging 127 00:07:40,760 --> 00:07:43,760 Speaker 1: from one side to the other side. Some people are 128 00:07:43,960 --> 00:07:47,040 Speaker 1: all in, meaning you have to get every single vaccine, 129 00:07:47,080 --> 00:07:50,160 Speaker 1: and if you say anything about any of the recommended 130 00:07:50,200 --> 00:07:54,160 Speaker 1: vaccines on the CDC Childhood schedule, then that makes you 131 00:07:54,200 --> 00:07:56,880 Speaker 1: a Charlotte, and that makes you a conspiracy anti vax 132 00:07:56,960 --> 00:08:00,520 Speaker 1: whatever word they're using that day. You have to be 133 00:08:00,560 --> 00:08:03,280 Speaker 1: all in. But on the other side, you have to 134 00:08:03,280 --> 00:08:06,160 Speaker 1: be all in there it's all or nothing, it seems. 135 00:08:06,360 --> 00:08:09,800 Speaker 1: And so you're coming at this with a very thoughtful approach, 136 00:08:09,880 --> 00:08:13,320 Speaker 1: one that you know, you hear Senator Rampaul talk about 137 00:08:13,400 --> 00:08:16,240 Speaker 1: I've talked about myself, whether it's on TV or the podcast, 138 00:08:16,720 --> 00:08:20,640 Speaker 1: saying we have to reevaluate the vaccine schedule. So what 139 00:08:20,680 --> 00:08:23,880 Speaker 1: we're seeing in Florida with the Florida surch in general 140 00:08:24,080 --> 00:08:26,320 Speaker 1: taking away all vaccine mandates. I mean, that's a whole 141 00:08:26,360 --> 00:08:28,800 Speaker 1: different conversation, but again it kind of gives us that 142 00:08:28,880 --> 00:08:33,760 Speaker 1: whole all or nothing mantra, that mindset, And so what 143 00:08:33,800 --> 00:08:36,640 Speaker 1: you are talking about in your report is not necessarily 144 00:08:36,760 --> 00:08:39,319 Speaker 1: the all or nothing, But maybe we need to have 145 00:08:39,440 --> 00:08:43,560 Speaker 1: conversations about the individual vaccines. Absolutely and cool. 146 00:08:43,760 --> 00:08:46,880 Speaker 2: So when I look at vaccines, I think they're about 147 00:08:46,920 --> 00:08:49,199 Speaker 2: five of them that I feel like are what I 148 00:08:49,200 --> 00:08:52,839 Speaker 2: would consider community obligation vaccines. And of those five, maybe 149 00:08:52,880 --> 00:08:55,720 Speaker 2: one that I would consider the most important, so measles 150 00:08:55,880 --> 00:09:00,559 Speaker 2: and then months rebella diphtheria protests. That's it in terms 151 00:09:00,600 --> 00:09:04,680 Speaker 2: of vaccines for diseases that are really easy to spread 152 00:09:05,200 --> 00:09:08,160 Speaker 2: that if most people don't get them, it's hard for 153 00:09:08,280 --> 00:09:11,640 Speaker 2: people who are at risks to be protected. So, for example, 154 00:09:11,640 --> 00:09:15,480 Speaker 2: with measles, if we don't get to hurd immunity for measles, 155 00:09:15,880 --> 00:09:18,560 Speaker 2: a six month old can't be protected. They're too young 156 00:09:18,640 --> 00:09:22,920 Speaker 2: to get the vaccine and they really depend on herd immunity. 157 00:09:23,640 --> 00:09:26,360 Speaker 2: I cannot make the same case for hepatitis B. And 158 00:09:26,360 --> 00:09:28,719 Speaker 2: when you look at the Florida mandates as they had 159 00:09:28,800 --> 00:09:32,520 Speaker 2: been yes, they required diesels vaccination, but they also required 160 00:09:32,559 --> 00:09:35,600 Speaker 2: hepatities to be vaccination. It's your point about the all 161 00:09:35,720 --> 00:09:40,640 Speaker 2: or nothing depriving school for a disease that isn't actually communicable, 162 00:09:41,080 --> 00:09:44,120 Speaker 2: not in any way questioning the effectiveness of the vaccine. 163 00:09:44,160 --> 00:09:48,200 Speaker 2: I am saying that basically for the community protective vaccines 164 00:09:48,360 --> 00:09:51,880 Speaker 2: to this extent that we consider them if they don't 165 00:09:51,920 --> 00:09:55,760 Speaker 2: think the math for mandates work Settymore, that's sort of 166 00:09:55,800 --> 00:09:58,240 Speaker 2: another issue that I have with them. But to the 167 00:09:58,240 --> 00:10:00,800 Speaker 2: extent that we even think about they need to be 168 00:10:00,840 --> 00:10:04,120 Speaker 2: for the disease is what that really depend on? Community 169 00:10:04,160 --> 00:10:08,120 Speaker 2: protection for diseases for individual protection, and I would put 170 00:10:08,160 --> 00:10:10,840 Speaker 2: hepatitis B in that. I think that's a parent's decision. 171 00:10:12,320 --> 00:10:15,320 Speaker 1: Well, and you know the hepatitis B vaccine that to 172 00:10:15,360 --> 00:10:18,920 Speaker 1: me is the most glaringly obvious one that we certainly 173 00:10:18,920 --> 00:10:21,320 Speaker 1: should have a conversation about and why it is on 174 00:10:21,880 --> 00:10:25,120 Speaker 1: any sort of school mandates for kids going to school, 175 00:10:25,200 --> 00:10:28,040 Speaker 1: especially school aged children. That's hard for me to wrap 176 00:10:28,040 --> 00:10:29,679 Speaker 1: my head around. As you said, it's not like a 177 00:10:29,720 --> 00:10:33,040 Speaker 1: respiratory transmitted virus. It's not highly contagious as like a 178 00:10:33,120 --> 00:10:36,600 Speaker 1: measles or even a chicken pox. It's really risk base, 179 00:10:36,960 --> 00:10:40,520 Speaker 1: and so that doesn't make sense other than you know, 180 00:10:40,600 --> 00:10:43,600 Speaker 1: the knee jerk reflexes when we have an available vaccine, 181 00:10:43,960 --> 00:10:46,880 Speaker 1: all of a sudden it gets put on the CDC recommendation, 182 00:10:47,240 --> 00:10:50,280 Speaker 1: and those recommendations. The CDC loves to say, we're not 183 00:10:50,440 --> 00:10:53,600 Speaker 1: making the mandates, we're not saying they're required, but they 184 00:10:53,760 --> 00:10:56,240 Speaker 1: very well know that when they put that on their 185 00:10:56,320 --> 00:10:59,880 Speaker 1: recommended schedule, that then turns into mandates and requirements and 186 00:11:00,040 --> 00:11:02,280 Speaker 1: so and so forth. And obviously this became the most 187 00:11:02,280 --> 00:11:06,880 Speaker 1: glaringly obvious during COVID. You brought up something which I 188 00:11:06,880 --> 00:11:10,080 Speaker 1: found very interesting in your vaccine report. You talked about 189 00:11:10,200 --> 00:11:13,640 Speaker 1: like the whole constitutional foundation of vaccine mandates, and it 190 00:11:13,720 --> 00:11:16,720 Speaker 1: was really interesting. It was a really interesting read in 191 00:11:16,760 --> 00:11:19,400 Speaker 1: the sense that it was from I think nineteen oh 192 00:11:19,400 --> 00:11:22,840 Speaker 1: five where they compared vaccination to the whole military giraft, 193 00:11:23,320 --> 00:11:26,440 Speaker 1: saying that, well, you send individuals into harm's way for 194 00:11:26,520 --> 00:11:30,199 Speaker 1: the collective good, acknowledging that some will be injured or 195 00:11:30,280 --> 00:11:33,439 Speaker 1: killed in the process. And so the fact that they 196 00:11:33,640 --> 00:11:38,000 Speaker 1: quoted that in you know, legal paperwork when it comes 197 00:11:38,080 --> 00:11:41,440 Speaker 1: to vaccines, I mean, that's really hard, you know, a 198 00:11:41,440 --> 00:11:42,880 Speaker 1: hard pill to swallow. 199 00:11:44,120 --> 00:11:46,679 Speaker 2: And I think that's a history that we lose. So 200 00:11:46,720 --> 00:11:49,760 Speaker 2: the case that you're talking about is Jacobson versus Massachusetts. 201 00:11:50,200 --> 00:11:53,920 Speaker 2: That vaccine was for an adult mandate and the penalty 202 00:11:54,040 --> 00:11:55,880 Speaker 2: was a fine, so it didn't keep you out of 203 00:11:55,920 --> 00:11:56,520 Speaker 2: public life. 204 00:11:56,600 --> 00:11:57,640 Speaker 1: Was that for smallpox? 205 00:11:58,000 --> 00:12:01,280 Speaker 2: It was for smallpox exactly. And there was a minister 206 00:12:01,440 --> 00:12:03,920 Speaker 2: actually there'd been hard to one of his children in 207 00:12:04,040 --> 00:12:06,600 Speaker 2: a small spac scene. He had some clint of conditions. 208 00:12:06,679 --> 00:12:09,520 Speaker 2: He didn't won again, then went to the Supreme Court 209 00:12:09,600 --> 00:12:12,080 Speaker 2: and they said, yes, you know, the reality is we 210 00:12:12,160 --> 00:12:15,960 Speaker 2: have some obligations such that you might be hurt, you 211 00:12:16,040 --> 00:12:18,760 Speaker 2: might even be killed by getting a vaccine. But there 212 00:12:18,760 --> 00:12:21,360 Speaker 2: are vaccines that we can use the police power of 213 00:12:21,360 --> 00:12:24,880 Speaker 2: the state to take away your rights to bodily integrity 214 00:12:25,640 --> 00:12:29,160 Speaker 2: in the name of protecting the community. And so again 215 00:12:29,200 --> 00:12:32,760 Speaker 2: that was a fine. It wasn't until about almost thirty 216 00:12:32,800 --> 00:12:35,079 Speaker 2: years later there was a case called Zuck versus Skiing 217 00:12:35,240 --> 00:12:38,800 Speaker 2: in nineteen twenty two that said kids can't go to 218 00:12:38,880 --> 00:12:42,040 Speaker 2: school if they don't get a smallpox vaccine. There wasn't 219 00:12:42,080 --> 00:12:44,640 Speaker 2: an outbreak or anything at that time, but the Supreme 220 00:12:44,679 --> 00:12:47,960 Speaker 2: Court linked to school. So we've had about one hundred 221 00:12:48,040 --> 00:12:52,120 Speaker 2: years in which even not having an outbreak, the Supreme 222 00:12:52,160 --> 00:12:54,720 Speaker 2: Court had said it's fine to keep kids out of 223 00:12:54,760 --> 00:12:57,920 Speaker 2: school if a community wants to have a mandate for 224 00:12:58,040 --> 00:13:02,920 Speaker 2: particular diseases. So that is something that we haven't really 225 00:13:03,120 --> 00:13:06,920 Speaker 2: completely revisited. There were cases that the Supreme Court danced 226 00:13:06,960 --> 00:13:11,320 Speaker 2: around during COVID, but I do think that was also 227 00:13:11,360 --> 00:13:13,920 Speaker 2: in a time was very different in terms of the 228 00:13:14,040 --> 00:13:17,560 Speaker 2: number of vaccines, and as you pointed out, until nineteen 229 00:13:17,600 --> 00:13:20,839 Speaker 2: eighty six we had very few vaccines. We just see 230 00:13:20,880 --> 00:13:24,240 Speaker 2: this progressive increase after we have a shield law that 231 00:13:24,320 --> 00:13:28,360 Speaker 2: manufacturers manufacturers can't be sued. Every year or two we 232 00:13:28,440 --> 00:13:31,400 Speaker 2: get one or two vaccines added into the schedule. So 233 00:13:31,679 --> 00:13:34,640 Speaker 2: at this point we've done about seventeen diseases that kids 234 00:13:34,679 --> 00:13:38,680 Speaker 2: are getting vaccinated against by age eighteen, So that sort 235 00:13:38,679 --> 00:13:42,000 Speaker 2: of volume, and to your point, once it's on the schedule, 236 00:13:42,200 --> 00:13:44,960 Speaker 2: it just gets added. So you brought a peptidis speed 237 00:13:45,080 --> 00:13:49,680 Speaker 2: forty six states mandated. So from a practical sense, getting 238 00:13:49,720 --> 00:13:52,079 Speaker 2: on the schedule is an excellent way to make sure. 239 00:13:52,080 --> 00:13:53,800 Speaker 2: It's a way to keep kids out of school if 240 00:13:53,800 --> 00:13:54,480 Speaker 2: they don't get it. 241 00:13:55,400 --> 00:13:58,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, you know what I find interesting is you pointed out, 242 00:13:58,320 --> 00:14:00,520 Speaker 1: and I mean you had great charts on it showing 243 00:14:00,600 --> 00:14:04,720 Speaker 1: that the United States, we well most other countries don't 244 00:14:04,920 --> 00:14:08,480 Speaker 1: have mandates for vaccines, but we wreck a quote unquote 245 00:14:08,480 --> 00:14:12,560 Speaker 1: recommend vaccines and ultimately mandate them more than any other country. 246 00:14:12,600 --> 00:14:16,280 Speaker 1: I mean the amount of boosters and so much and 247 00:14:16,320 --> 00:14:19,120 Speaker 1: so forth. And you talk about, you know, the concern 248 00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:22,600 Speaker 1: of the aluminum exposure that's in it, the aluminum salts. 249 00:14:22,720 --> 00:14:25,480 Speaker 1: I suppose it is, and so you know, talk to 250 00:14:25,480 --> 00:14:27,560 Speaker 1: me a little bit about that what you've found in that. 251 00:14:28,280 --> 00:14:31,760 Speaker 2: Sure so aluminum just in case other people don't put 252 00:14:31,760 --> 00:14:35,680 Speaker 2: that background. A lot of vaccines don't work particularly well 253 00:14:35,760 --> 00:14:38,080 Speaker 2: unless they have a kick start, and they also kind 254 00:14:38,080 --> 00:14:41,200 Speaker 2: of need to be doled out over. An aluminum does 255 00:14:41,240 --> 00:14:44,560 Speaker 2: those two things. It acts as a kickstarter for a vaccine, 256 00:14:44,880 --> 00:14:47,080 Speaker 2: and then it's sort of as a train depot station 257 00:14:47,440 --> 00:14:51,680 Speaker 2: that it gradually will doll the dose of vaccine that 258 00:14:51,840 --> 00:14:58,120 Speaker 2: individual shot. It is a toxin, and originally when we 259 00:14:58,200 --> 00:15:02,280 Speaker 2: had the old schedule, we had serio A tennis and PROTESTERICEM. 260 00:15:02,840 --> 00:15:06,920 Speaker 2: We keep adding more and more vaccines that have aluminum 261 00:15:07,000 --> 00:15:09,440 Speaker 2: in them, such that when you look at our schedule 262 00:15:09,520 --> 00:15:12,800 Speaker 2: compared to Europe. It's basically that we have about double 263 00:15:13,160 --> 00:15:16,160 Speaker 2: the amount of most of Europe. Well in England and 264 00:15:16,200 --> 00:15:19,400 Speaker 2: Canada are somewhere in the middle. We have a report 265 00:15:19,440 --> 00:15:21,840 Speaker 2: from CDC that was done a few years ago that 266 00:15:22,080 --> 00:15:24,880 Speaker 2: found on a twenty six percent increase in the risk 267 00:15:24,920 --> 00:15:28,280 Speaker 2: of asthma when you had the US dose of aluminum, 268 00:15:28,440 --> 00:15:31,600 Speaker 2: and they said, oh, that's interesting. But even though the 269 00:15:31,640 --> 00:15:34,480 Speaker 2: CDC had designed this study themselves and it was a 270 00:15:34,560 --> 00:15:37,960 Speaker 2: huge study, they decided that they were just going to 271 00:15:38,040 --> 00:15:42,160 Speaker 2: keep things exactly the same. The issue with aluminum is 272 00:15:42,200 --> 00:15:46,200 Speaker 2: that for nerd developmental disease and for asthma and allergies, 273 00:15:46,760 --> 00:15:48,800 Speaker 2: that is sort of the canary in the coal mine 274 00:15:48,840 --> 00:15:52,320 Speaker 2: for aluminum. When you get to aluminum doses that are 275 00:15:52,360 --> 00:15:56,040 Speaker 2: on the higher end, that's when you really worry about 276 00:15:56,080 --> 00:15:58,520 Speaker 2: those diseases. And I do want to mention that there 277 00:15:58,600 --> 00:16:01,080 Speaker 2: was a study that got done in July of this 278 00:16:01,200 --> 00:16:05,360 Speaker 2: year from Denmark and they looked at aluminum and they said, oh, 279 00:16:05,400 --> 00:16:09,600 Speaker 2: we didn't find any problems. We didn't find any threshold responses. 280 00:16:09,760 --> 00:16:10,520 Speaker 1: Now I'm kind of a. 281 00:16:10,480 --> 00:16:13,480 Speaker 2: Geek about this stuff, but I will tell you that 282 00:16:13,600 --> 00:16:17,040 Speaker 2: they also made a claim that there's no dose response. 283 00:16:17,360 --> 00:16:20,840 Speaker 2: That's the equivalent scientifically of saying we found in our 284 00:16:20,920 --> 00:16:23,720 Speaker 2: study that the sun rises in the west and it 285 00:16:23,800 --> 00:16:27,520 Speaker 2: sets in the east. It's the thing that something only 286 00:16:27,760 --> 00:16:32,680 Speaker 2: some people did not understand. Aluminum toxicology would say that 287 00:16:32,680 --> 00:16:36,680 Speaker 2: that basically with aluminum, when you get to the kinds 288 00:16:36,680 --> 00:16:39,800 Speaker 2: of higher doses that you have in the US, that's 289 00:16:39,840 --> 00:16:41,400 Speaker 2: when you start to see harms. 290 00:16:41,920 --> 00:16:44,440 Speaker 1: Again, plum was kind of like fluoride that way, like 291 00:16:44,480 --> 00:16:47,720 Speaker 1: an exert amount of fluoride is fine, but it's actually 292 00:16:47,880 --> 00:16:50,080 Speaker 1: it's helpful, But as soon as you get up on 293 00:16:50,160 --> 00:16:53,320 Speaker 1: that curve, it can be you know, deleterious for you. 294 00:16:54,040 --> 00:16:59,280 Speaker 2: Exactly the doses that we see. When Denmark doesn't see 295 00:16:59,320 --> 00:17:02,480 Speaker 2: harm done, they give half the dose that we do. 296 00:17:03,120 --> 00:17:06,160 Speaker 2: They don't give it for essential vaccines. You could still 297 00:17:06,200 --> 00:17:09,600 Speaker 2: get di you could still get the vaccines for diteria, 298 00:17:09,720 --> 00:17:12,360 Speaker 2: for tetanus protestis, you could get it for the pneumonia 299 00:17:12,440 --> 00:17:16,159 Speaker 2: vaccine and still be well within what is probably a 300 00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:20,320 Speaker 2: safe threshold. It's when you start adding hepatitis B, hepatitis A. 301 00:17:21,040 --> 00:17:23,600 Speaker 2: And if I could just mention one other thing, part 302 00:17:23,600 --> 00:17:26,959 Speaker 2: of why we give extra doses is we don't type 303 00:17:27,760 --> 00:17:31,080 Speaker 2: we don't time our vaccines for immunity, so we start 304 00:17:31,119 --> 00:17:35,400 Speaker 2: the diphtheria to protestice vaccine before the kids immune systems 305 00:17:35,440 --> 00:17:39,320 Speaker 2: actually can tolerate them. Part of why Denmark gives less 306 00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:42,879 Speaker 2: is they wait a little longer to give their vaccines 307 00:17:43,440 --> 00:17:46,560 Speaker 2: and therefore they're able to give three shots and we 308 00:17:46,680 --> 00:17:50,040 Speaker 2: give bock. So when we look at it, if our 309 00:17:50,040 --> 00:17:53,040 Speaker 2: schedule not just had Pewer shots and Pewer diseases, but 310 00:17:53,040 --> 00:17:56,240 Speaker 2: if we actually looked at the immunity and the level 311 00:17:56,280 --> 00:17:59,520 Speaker 2: of development that kids have, we have fewer shots, but 312 00:17:59,600 --> 00:18:02,320 Speaker 2: we have better immunity from the chis we get. 313 00:18:02,800 --> 00:18:04,960 Speaker 1: You know that Denmark study, you know, I looked at 314 00:18:04,960 --> 00:18:06,639 Speaker 1: it and obviously a lot of people said, Oh, it 315 00:18:06,680 --> 00:18:10,040 Speaker 1: was reassuring. I agree with what you're saying that they 316 00:18:10,040 --> 00:18:12,960 Speaker 1: do have a lesser amount. I mean they even talk 317 00:18:13,040 --> 00:18:17,080 Speaker 1: about the doses of aluminum that the kids they absorbed 318 00:18:17,119 --> 00:18:20,560 Speaker 1: dose essentially that they were able to estimate there were 319 00:18:20,600 --> 00:18:23,280 Speaker 1: some on the far extremes that had that higher amount 320 00:18:23,480 --> 00:18:25,879 Speaker 1: that would probably equate to the US, but it was 321 00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:29,119 Speaker 1: the minority of the kids in their study, not the majority. 322 00:18:29,880 --> 00:18:32,120 Speaker 1: But what you touched on earlier was that I think 323 00:18:32,160 --> 00:18:35,080 Speaker 1: it's twenty twenty two study put out by people funded 324 00:18:35,119 --> 00:18:39,439 Speaker 1: by the CDC or the NIEIGHT, which essentially said that 325 00:18:39,520 --> 00:18:43,840 Speaker 1: there was a correlation of these the aluminum doses of vaccination, 326 00:18:44,320 --> 00:18:47,360 Speaker 1: specifically in kids who already had exzema, meaning that they're 327 00:18:47,440 --> 00:18:50,600 Speaker 1: hypersensitive as is. And as you're saying, I think it 328 00:18:50,640 --> 00:18:52,359 Speaker 1: was like twenty four if there was a range even 329 00:18:52,400 --> 00:18:56,719 Speaker 1: more these kids had chronic asthma and they likened it 330 00:18:56,760 --> 00:19:00,840 Speaker 1: to the aluminum, and then that's a big That study 331 00:19:00,920 --> 00:19:03,680 Speaker 1: was a big deal, yet nothing came of it, and 332 00:19:03,720 --> 00:19:07,359 Speaker 1: their concluding lines were, well, we need to do more research. 333 00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:08,960 Speaker 1: And by the way, the people who say we need 334 00:19:09,000 --> 00:19:11,879 Speaker 1: to do more research, that's them saying, well, this is 335 00:19:11,920 --> 00:19:14,240 Speaker 1: what we found, but people aren't going to like it, 336 00:19:15,040 --> 00:19:17,199 Speaker 1: so we'll just say we need to do more research, 337 00:19:17,320 --> 00:19:20,320 Speaker 1: just to bias more time. But what happened was in 338 00:19:20,359 --> 00:19:22,560 Speaker 1: the United States they didn't do any more research. And 339 00:19:22,960 --> 00:19:25,440 Speaker 1: I think it was the lead author on that paper, 340 00:19:25,960 --> 00:19:29,119 Speaker 1: A Cent was part of the ACIP committee of the 341 00:19:29,119 --> 00:19:33,439 Speaker 1: CDC recommending the vaccines of COVID vaccines Flew and all 342 00:19:33,480 --> 00:19:35,960 Speaker 1: the other ones. So of course he doesn't want the 343 00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:38,480 Speaker 1: fact that his data shows that there may be harm 344 00:19:38,640 --> 00:19:40,840 Speaker 1: to this vaccine schedule. He's the one who's creating the 345 00:19:40,880 --> 00:19:41,720 Speaker 1: vaccine schedule. 346 00:19:43,119 --> 00:19:46,399 Speaker 2: Absolutely. You know again, this is a big study. The 347 00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:50,399 Speaker 2: three hundred and twenty seven thousand kids. CDC designed it. 348 00:19:50,400 --> 00:19:54,440 Speaker 2: It's a well done study. No research is ever going 349 00:19:54,480 --> 00:19:57,600 Speaker 2: to be perfect. When people say, well it's not being replicated, well, 350 00:19:57,640 --> 00:20:00,960 Speaker 2: if you don't do any more research on this, say 351 00:20:00,960 --> 00:20:04,360 Speaker 2: not only look when I When you're looking at the evidence, 352 00:20:04,440 --> 00:20:06,600 Speaker 2: it sort of tells you a story, and part of 353 00:20:06,600 --> 00:20:09,359 Speaker 2: it is the story of what's in the literature. But 354 00:20:09,400 --> 00:20:12,280 Speaker 2: when you see absent literature, when you see people stop 355 00:20:12,480 --> 00:20:15,719 Speaker 2: doing studies when you get findings that they are inconvenient, 356 00:20:15,800 --> 00:20:18,159 Speaker 2: and that's the way I would describe aluminum. There have 357 00:20:18,200 --> 00:20:21,720 Speaker 2: been a lot of inconvenient things that people just don't 358 00:20:21,720 --> 00:20:26,080 Speaker 2: want to realize, and so there's unfortunately far too little literature. 359 00:20:26,760 --> 00:20:29,359 Speaker 2: The other part that bugs me about this Danish study 360 00:20:29,480 --> 00:20:32,840 Speaker 2: is it was published in an American medical journal, and 361 00:20:32,880 --> 00:20:37,840 Speaker 2: it was absolutely intended to reassure in American audience. The 362 00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:42,000 Speaker 2: core aluminum studies, the core aluminum toxicology literature. They don't 363 00:20:42,040 --> 00:20:42,600 Speaker 2: even cite. 364 00:20:43,520 --> 00:20:46,359 Speaker 1: There is author I think the author of the US 365 00:20:46,440 --> 00:20:49,920 Speaker 1: study from the CDC on the ASET Committee. He commented 366 00:20:49,960 --> 00:20:52,440 Speaker 1: on it. I saw it in an interview or something somewhere. 367 00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:54,399 Speaker 1: He's like, Oh, it's it's great to see the study. 368 00:20:54,440 --> 00:20:57,240 Speaker 1: It's so reassuring. I'm like, so, are you admitting that 369 00:20:57,520 --> 00:21:01,080 Speaker 1: your data was flawed because you're our data actually seemed 370 00:21:01,119 --> 00:21:03,919 Speaker 1: pretty on point for someone who loves to criticize data. 371 00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:08,639 Speaker 1: So it was that it's hard to not feel that 372 00:21:08,680 --> 00:21:11,720 Speaker 1: people's personal opinions and the push for the mandates, which, 373 00:21:11,960 --> 00:21:15,120 Speaker 1: by the way, listen, you know, I guess I can 374 00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:17,840 Speaker 1: ask you this question, but when it comes to vaccine mandates, 375 00:21:18,119 --> 00:21:20,720 Speaker 1: you know, do you think that these mandates serve and 376 00:21:20,760 --> 00:21:23,919 Speaker 1: an effective tool in achieving herd immunity or do they 377 00:21:23,960 --> 00:21:27,080 Speaker 1: actually they more risk infringing on personal freedoms? Like what 378 00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:30,439 Speaker 1: is your take on these mandates, especially like measles, Like 379 00:21:30,480 --> 00:21:33,040 Speaker 1: we're talking about we've already kind of agreed we need 380 00:21:33,080 --> 00:21:36,480 Speaker 1: to revisit the vaccine schedule because we think we're overdoing 381 00:21:36,520 --> 00:21:39,840 Speaker 1: it for many reasons. But what about the school mandates 382 00:21:39,840 --> 00:21:41,240 Speaker 1: and some of the other things, I mean, the fact 383 00:21:41,240 --> 00:21:43,639 Speaker 1: that Florida is trying to eradicate them entirely. 384 00:21:44,520 --> 00:21:47,359 Speaker 2: Sure, some of the best things you can make for 385 00:21:47,520 --> 00:21:50,520 Speaker 2: mandates is they give us an infrastructure. There are some 386 00:21:50,680 --> 00:21:54,240 Speaker 2: logistics to my kids going to school and I have 387 00:21:54,359 --> 00:21:56,439 Speaker 2: to do my vaccine, so I'm going to set up 388 00:21:56,440 --> 00:21:58,680 Speaker 2: my well child visit. I'm going to get this shot. 389 00:21:58,840 --> 00:22:02,280 Speaker 2: There are logistics. Most parents who do not get vaccinated, 390 00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:06,600 Speaker 2: for example, who homeschool are not homeschooling because there are mantles. 391 00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:09,919 Speaker 2: They are homeschooling because they want more control over their 392 00:22:09,960 --> 00:22:14,200 Speaker 2: kids schooling. But the reality is if you look after 393 00:22:14,359 --> 00:22:17,879 Speaker 2: COVID at the number of kids who left formal in 394 00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:24,280 Speaker 2: person school, you basically read to us about nine percent 395 00:22:24,320 --> 00:22:26,760 Speaker 2: of kids, you know, kind of depending on the numbers 396 00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:31,800 Speaker 2: are in homeschools or micro schools or schools or online charter. 397 00:22:33,080 --> 00:22:36,679 Speaker 2: Basically you need ninety five percent of all kids. But 398 00:22:36,840 --> 00:22:39,080 Speaker 2: right now we don't even have ninety five percent of 399 00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:42,960 Speaker 2: kids in school. So literally the math for mandates does 400 00:22:43,040 --> 00:22:45,840 Speaker 2: not work for measles. It is impossible, even if you 401 00:22:45,880 --> 00:22:49,080 Speaker 2: get rid of all exemptions, to actually get to a 402 00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:52,560 Speaker 2: national measles herd immunity based on the number of kids 403 00:22:52,600 --> 00:22:55,720 Speaker 2: who left school. Because public health authorities that it was 404 00:22:55,800 --> 00:22:57,960 Speaker 2: fine to shut down schools for more than a year, 405 00:22:58,440 --> 00:23:01,439 Speaker 2: those kids didn't go back to school. And that's a 406 00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:04,480 Speaker 2: reality that I think our public health infrastructure and for 407 00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:07,639 Speaker 2: example AAP, I don't think they've really caught up with 408 00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:10,720 Speaker 2: the math of this. When you only have ninety three 409 00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:14,760 Speaker 2: to ninety four percent or so of kids who are 410 00:23:15,040 --> 00:23:18,719 Speaker 2: in for some school, depending on the state, you cannot 411 00:23:18,840 --> 00:23:22,520 Speaker 2: get to hurt immunity with for measles, with a man 412 00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:25,960 Speaker 2: the mass just doesn't work. So I do think you 413 00:23:26,080 --> 00:23:27,280 Speaker 2: recommend just doing. 414 00:23:27,080 --> 00:23:29,160 Speaker 1: Away with them, because I would say I would argue 415 00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:31,600 Speaker 1: that I guess that they have heard immunity at least 416 00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:33,919 Speaker 1: in the classroom, which is a place for measles to 417 00:23:34,080 --> 00:23:35,159 Speaker 1: spread very quickly. 418 00:23:36,320 --> 00:23:39,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, So the problem I have and the challenge I 419 00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:42,159 Speaker 2: think what happened in Florida is they do sort of 420 00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:44,679 Speaker 2: a purpose. So if we're going to take something away, 421 00:23:44,760 --> 00:23:48,320 Speaker 2: we have to offer something else in instead. So Florida, 422 00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:51,400 Speaker 2: for example, could have changed their ability to tech outreach. 423 00:23:51,560 --> 00:23:53,840 Speaker 2: They could have changed the ability to opt. You know 424 00:23:53,880 --> 00:23:58,760 Speaker 2: that texting could be better. They could offer other different strategies. 425 00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:02,520 Speaker 2: They could a more liberal strategy in terms of allowing 426 00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:06,159 Speaker 2: kids to get vaccinated later. There are a variety of 427 00:24:06,200 --> 00:24:10,000 Speaker 2: other strategies that have been tried internationally to increase uptake 428 00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:14,439 Speaker 2: of measeless vaccination. So the problem I have with what 429 00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:17,840 Speaker 2: Florida did is not that you know, I can conceptually 430 00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:21,000 Speaker 2: understand what they're getting at, and I think to do 431 00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:25,920 Speaker 2: it for everything without something to substitute what is a mistake. 432 00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:28,920 Speaker 2: From my perspective, I do think, for example, pulling them 433 00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:32,080 Speaker 2: for preakfast at a steam would have made a lot 434 00:24:32,119 --> 00:24:34,639 Speaker 2: of sense. And then working to what can we do 435 00:24:34,760 --> 00:24:38,480 Speaker 2: to fill the gap we're talking about measles, that's me 436 00:24:38,760 --> 00:24:42,480 Speaker 2: or even allowing more liberal exemption policies, because the reality 437 00:24:42,560 --> 00:24:47,240 Speaker 2: is even with exemption policies, kids will actually stay in school. 438 00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:51,200 Speaker 2: You know, when California made their exemptions so so tight 439 00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:55,200 Speaker 2: and d of all exemptence, It's true the vaccinations did 440 00:24:55,320 --> 00:24:57,800 Speaker 2: go up among the kids who stayed in school. The 441 00:24:57,880 --> 00:25:00,359 Speaker 2: number of kids who have left formal school double them. 442 00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:06,720 Speaker 2: So the reality is every single state tightened up. Basically, 443 00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:12,040 Speaker 2: I will increased in medical and increasing kings. 444 00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:15,919 Speaker 1: Do you think I mean this place? I feel like 445 00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:19,040 Speaker 1: we are in such a you know, a place where 446 00:25:19,119 --> 00:25:21,920 Speaker 1: public trust is I felt it was an all time 447 00:25:21,960 --> 00:25:25,160 Speaker 1: low at COVID, but I didn't realize that we could 448 00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:28,199 Speaker 1: even get lower than that, and I think, you know, 449 00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:31,440 Speaker 1: RFK Junior at the HHS Secretary is doing a lot 450 00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:33,760 Speaker 1: of great things in the sense that he's looking and 451 00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:36,840 Speaker 1: talking about things that no one has in decades, and 452 00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:41,840 Speaker 1: they're very important things. But my concern is that it's 453 00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:43,720 Speaker 1: affecting public trust even more. 454 00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:45,120 Speaker 2: Your thoughts. 455 00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:50,200 Speaker 1: Beendulum. We were over here, now we've gone this way, 456 00:25:50,359 --> 00:25:51,399 Speaker 1: like where's the center? 457 00:25:52,119 --> 00:25:55,520 Speaker 2: Right? So I do think RFP. Junior really there's a 458 00:25:55,520 --> 00:25:57,800 Speaker 2: lot of important revisiting. You know, I read through the 459 00:25:57,840 --> 00:26:00,199 Speaker 2: MAHA report on kids that came out this week, so 460 00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:03,960 Speaker 2: talking about food, talking about exercise and stress for kids, 461 00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:07,600 Speaker 2: looking at over medicalization for kids. I think all of 462 00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:12,080 Speaker 2: these are really important topics. I also think his advisor 463 00:26:12,119 --> 00:26:16,560 Speaker 2: on vaccines is Martin Poltz, who is somebody who's publicly 464 00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:20,560 Speaker 2: talked about being in favor of measles vaccination. So whatever 465 00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:24,919 Speaker 2: people are saying about his opinions and scenes, I do 466 00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:29,040 Speaker 2: think he has people who are not a no vaccines 467 00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:33,040 Speaker 2: And when I listened to him and I've read his books, 468 00:26:33,359 --> 00:26:37,320 Speaker 2: he's not all out against every single vaccine. He just 469 00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:40,040 Speaker 2: I think more than anything, he has a discussion that 470 00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:42,840 Speaker 2: says probably there are some things we are crediting to 471 00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:46,400 Speaker 2: vaccines that when you look at the big Star sanitation, 472 00:26:46,800 --> 00:26:49,359 Speaker 2: we've played a role that there's some other So I 473 00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:53,199 Speaker 2: do think that there's a lot more nuanced. But I 474 00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:57,119 Speaker 2: also think some of this is frankly anti administration. I 475 00:26:57,160 --> 00:27:02,000 Speaker 2: think that there are very logicalhatory administrations. Yeah, I think 476 00:27:02,119 --> 00:27:05,000 Speaker 2: that when you look at the evidence for the lack 477 00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:08,679 Speaker 2: of evidence for COVID vaccination and people, including kids who 478 00:27:08,760 --> 00:27:13,000 Speaker 2: are healthy, that evidence is at best week And I 479 00:27:13,119 --> 00:27:16,760 Speaker 2: do actually from a scientific standpoint, from an evidentiary standpoint, 480 00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:19,600 Speaker 2: I agree with the decisions for that the FDA took. 481 00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:23,040 Speaker 2: I think that they are evidence based decisions. But I 482 00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:26,679 Speaker 2: think that, let me just say this, some of this 483 00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:31,480 Speaker 2: is definitional. Definitional. So during the Biden administration, the definition 484 00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:35,040 Speaker 2: of what a vaccine was was changed. So anything that 485 00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:38,720 Speaker 2: causes an immune response is a vaccine. Now that's not 486 00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:40,719 Speaker 2: the way it used to be. You used to actually 487 00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:42,720 Speaker 2: have to show that it was something that showed a 488 00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:47,639 Speaker 2: benefit in preventing disease, for preventing harm. That's not the 489 00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:51,639 Speaker 2: case anymore. So when these agencies say these are evidence based, 490 00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:56,760 Speaker 2: all COVID vaccine does, it increases an immune response for 491 00:27:56,960 --> 00:28:00,600 Speaker 2: people who are healthy. That is what the evidence shows. 492 00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:05,439 Speaker 2: So I do think unfortunately there's a lot things. Maybe 493 00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:11,639 Speaker 2: stylistically in terms of HIHS, you know that people are 494 00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:14,840 Speaker 2: latching onto. But I think in terms of the evidence 495 00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:19,280 Speaker 2: just going to say for vaccines, consistently they agreement with 496 00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:20,200 Speaker 2: what he's been saying. 497 00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:24,119 Speaker 1: So your take home if they could just do what 498 00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:25,920 Speaker 1: could they do to try and get us on the 499 00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:28,840 Speaker 1: right step from a public health standpoint, but also a 500 00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:31,639 Speaker 1: public perception stampoint sure? 501 00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:35,040 Speaker 2: I think so from back for vaccines, I think we 502 00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:38,320 Speaker 2: need to step I think we need to focus on 503 00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:41,000 Speaker 2: the vaccines that are for community protection. And again, if 504 00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:43,560 Speaker 2: I'm going to pick one, it's musles. I think the 505 00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:47,880 Speaker 2: potential risk of really getting to endemic musles it's a 506 00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:50,880 Speaker 2: disaster if we would ever get back. We have a 507 00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:53,560 Speaker 2: lot of outbreaks. Now, this is something that I think 508 00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:54,360 Speaker 2: is really important. 509 00:28:54,960 --> 00:28:57,000 Speaker 1: You know, part of the folio in that too, seeing 510 00:28:57,080 --> 00:28:59,640 Speaker 1: is polio has been found in more water and like 511 00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:00,520 Speaker 1: you're have been. 512 00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:05,800 Speaker 2: Is an interesting one. So it is interesting because the 513 00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:08,520 Speaker 2: fact we have given for polio for the last twenty 514 00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:12,160 Speaker 2: five years does nothing to stop an individual from getting polio. 515 00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:14,200 Speaker 2: It does nothing to stop transmission. 516 00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:19,320 Speaker 1: But neurological effects absolutely that this is a big deal. 517 00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:22,040 Speaker 2: Well it is so nicole. But here's the question you 518 00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:25,760 Speaker 2: would ask you, and again I'm not being cavalier about polio. 519 00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:28,280 Speaker 2: If you look at the exposure rates that we have 520 00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:30,760 Speaker 2: in the United States, you know when people come in 521 00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:33,040 Speaker 2: because we only see it when there's you know, there's 522 00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:36,480 Speaker 2: some strains that can be imported. Literally, the risk of 523 00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:40,120 Speaker 2: getting polio neurolytic polio in the United States if you're 524 00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:43,880 Speaker 2: exposed is one in ten million, so, which is actually 525 00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:47,800 Speaker 2: that's the math for the risk of the vaccine. So 526 00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:50,560 Speaker 2: I'm going to make the case that you're probably putting 527 00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:52,920 Speaker 2: your kid at greater risk if you're driving your kid 528 00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:57,560 Speaker 2: to school of having a neurologic problem, then you're by 529 00:29:57,640 --> 00:30:00,440 Speaker 2: not getting the polio vaccine. And let me say this 530 00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:01,200 Speaker 2: my opinion. 531 00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:04,440 Speaker 1: That's a great analogy because I use that all the 532 00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:07,880 Speaker 1: time speaking about the COVID vaccine. I'm like, if you're 533 00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:09,840 Speaker 1: able to drive your kid to school and you're not 534 00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:12,480 Speaker 1: worried about that, you know, they're probably going to be 535 00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:15,280 Speaker 1: okay if they get COVID and they're healthy, you know, 536 00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:17,600 Speaker 1: whereas the vaccine has a higher risk. 537 00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:21,840 Speaker 2: I just think that parents make them and should make, frankly, 538 00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:25,960 Speaker 2: a lot of decisions about their kids. And while I understand, yeah, 539 00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:28,680 Speaker 2: I have an MPH, I understand the instinct to want 540 00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:31,760 Speaker 2: to be protective and paternalistic about the way we protect 541 00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:35,880 Speaker 2: our kids. But the reality is this is not a 542 00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:39,280 Speaker 2: disease that kids are at high risk of having complications for. 543 00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:43,040 Speaker 2: I do not think that kids shouldn't get it. Maybe 544 00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:45,840 Speaker 2: just be very much on record, I think kids should 545 00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:49,320 Speaker 2: get the inactivated polio vaccine, but I think any case 546 00:30:49,360 --> 00:30:51,800 Speaker 2: that you are going to make you but a person 547 00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:55,840 Speaker 2: might make that the polio vaccine we give now is 548 00:30:55,880 --> 00:30:59,440 Speaker 2: protecting other kids. I disagree with them in terms of 549 00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:02,720 Speaker 2: the kinds of risks that we let parents make and 550 00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:06,160 Speaker 2: the way they raise their kids. I think we let 551 00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:09,000 Speaker 2: them have from believes, we let them drive their kids 552 00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:12,520 Speaker 2: to school. There are certain risks that I think taking 553 00:31:12,560 --> 00:31:15,800 Speaker 2: away parents' rights to make medical decisions for their kids 554 00:31:16,120 --> 00:31:20,120 Speaker 2: if there's not a community benefit, I chafe it them. 555 00:31:21,560 --> 00:31:24,160 Speaker 1: If you can make very strong, valid arguments, and like 556 00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:26,240 Speaker 1: I said, I read through your whole report and it's 557 00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:29,959 Speaker 1: very fact based and which I appreciate. You're not hyperbolic 558 00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:32,520 Speaker 1: and you're what you say at all. I just I 559 00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:36,400 Speaker 1: wish that we could put it together so something like 560 00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:38,480 Speaker 1: for me to read it. I mean, I actually you 561 00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:40,440 Speaker 1: wrote it in a way that anyone could read it, 562 00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:44,080 Speaker 1: like you don't have to be a physician or an academic. 563 00:31:45,120 --> 00:31:47,240 Speaker 1: But I wish that we could all kind of come 564 00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:50,840 Speaker 1: together and aghs. They could really put something concise out 565 00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:53,840 Speaker 1: and that could be, you know, the start, instead of 566 00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:56,200 Speaker 1: we keep having these conversations back and forth and these 567 00:31:56,200 --> 00:31:58,640 Speaker 1: little things keep happening, and all it's doing is creating 568 00:31:58,640 --> 00:32:02,280 Speaker 1: a sense of chaos and it's just not helping us 569 00:32:02,320 --> 00:32:05,080 Speaker 1: move forward as a nation. And so I wish that 570 00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:07,200 Speaker 1: they could kind of like what you did, but then 571 00:32:07,320 --> 00:32:10,360 Speaker 1: just take that and say, these are our recommendations, these 572 00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:13,000 Speaker 1: are the risks. Give it to the parents, give it 573 00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:15,400 Speaker 1: to the pediatricians, and say you all need to work 574 00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:19,000 Speaker 1: together and let's figure it out. I guess that's but 575 00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:22,840 Speaker 1: I also think it's dangerous to let like measles go 576 00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:24,040 Speaker 1: completely unchecked. 577 00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:26,200 Speaker 2: I think the part of where we are is it's 578 00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:29,560 Speaker 2: so polarized right now. I actually don't think it's an if. 579 00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:33,920 Speaker 2: I do think we're we're headed towards getting regional pandemic disease. 580 00:32:34,120 --> 00:32:36,720 Speaker 2: I do worry that in the Southeast we're going to 581 00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:41,080 Speaker 2: have a situation in which measles becomes the reality for 582 00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:44,840 Speaker 2: some kids in some parts of the country, and a reminder, 583 00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:49,120 Speaker 2: they tend twenty years to claw before before the vaccine, 584 00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:52,760 Speaker 2: almost four million kids got measles every year, and hundreds 585 00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:56,440 Speaker 2: of them died. And the kids who died were babies 586 00:32:56,760 --> 00:33:01,040 Speaker 2: who really they cannot get vaccinated. When we think about this, 587 00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:04,120 Speaker 2: I am very much for parents' rights to make medical 588 00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:07,080 Speaker 2: decisions about their kids. But the kids who are going 589 00:33:07,120 --> 00:33:09,960 Speaker 2: to suffer if we get back to endemic measles are 590 00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:13,200 Speaker 2: going to be kids who cannot get vaccinated. This is 591 00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:18,520 Speaker 2: something that again, well I am a libertarian at heart, 592 00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:21,520 Speaker 2: there are things that we have moral obligations to each 593 00:33:21,560 --> 00:33:24,760 Speaker 2: other as members of society. We cannot get back to 594 00:33:24,800 --> 00:33:27,840 Speaker 2: a disease that will affect four million kids, and frankly, 595 00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:32,200 Speaker 2: measels parties back to nine year olds and that works 596 00:33:32,280 --> 00:33:35,560 Speaker 2: because it's not usually a severe disease, and the kids 597 00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:37,960 Speaker 2: who were old enough to go to a party, the 598 00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:41,120 Speaker 2: kids who died, the kids who had complications with babies 599 00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:46,280 Speaker 2: who depended like older siblings actually getting vaccinated. That's the 600 00:33:46,280 --> 00:33:48,400 Speaker 2: reality that I feel like we're missing with this. 601 00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:52,720 Speaker 1: Well. I truly appreciate you coming on Wellness Unmasked talking 602 00:33:52,760 --> 00:33:56,040 Speaker 1: about this. It's an important conversation, and you know, voices 603 00:33:56,120 --> 00:33:58,720 Speaker 1: like yours who've really done research know what they're talking about. 604 00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:01,640 Speaker 1: Not one size fits all all. That's exactly the voices 605 00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:03,600 Speaker 1: we need in the room right now. So thank you. 606 00:34:03,840 --> 00:34:06,680 Speaker 1: I love to report and I'm going to tell people 607 00:34:06,680 --> 00:34:06,960 Speaker 1: about it. 608 00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:09,520 Speaker 2: Thank you so much, Nicaule. Thanks for having me on. 609 00:34:09,680 --> 00:34:12,200 Speaker 1: You're listening to Wellness and mass We'll be right back 610 00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:18,400 Speaker 1: with more. Well, that was a jam packed conversation, a 611 00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:22,080 Speaker 1: lot of information. Honestly that to have a real conversation 612 00:34:22,160 --> 00:34:24,560 Speaker 1: about the vaccine schedule, it would go on for days, 613 00:34:24,880 --> 00:34:27,520 Speaker 1: not just a short podcast episode, but you kind of 614 00:34:27,600 --> 00:34:30,640 Speaker 1: understand the gist of what we're talking about. Vaccines have 615 00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:34,680 Speaker 1: been one of medicine's greatest success stories, nearly eradicating diseases 616 00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:38,640 Speaker 1: like polioned measles, specifically here in the United States. Yet 617 00:34:38,680 --> 00:34:42,800 Speaker 1: the reality today it's obviously more complicated. CDC data showing 618 00:34:42,880 --> 00:34:45,480 Speaker 1: the exemptions are on the rise, vaccination rates are on 619 00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:49,560 Speaker 1: the decline, and so we're also starting to see resurgence 620 00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:53,399 Speaker 1: of illnesses once considered under control. We're seeing a lot 621 00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:56,759 Speaker 1: of outbreaks of measles, obviously, we are seeing some flu. 622 00:34:57,000 --> 00:35:00,600 Speaker 1: We're seeing a lot more whooping cough as well, my 623 00:35:00,760 --> 00:35:03,720 Speaker 1: son being one of them. So when we look closely 624 00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:06,120 Speaker 1: at the data, one of the biggest questions that comes 625 00:35:06,200 --> 00:35:11,040 Speaker 1: up is if certain vaccines aren't actually preventing transmission, do 626 00:35:11,160 --> 00:35:14,479 Speaker 1: they really need to be routinely given in lower risk 627 00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:20,280 Speaker 1: populations like whooping call vaccine and healthy adolescents. By continuing 628 00:35:20,360 --> 00:35:24,880 Speaker 1: to recommend every vaccine across every age group, regardless of 629 00:35:24,960 --> 00:35:28,680 Speaker 1: the risk level, we may be actually undermining public trust. 630 00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:31,680 Speaker 1: We saw this with COVID. What happened with covid. They 631 00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:37,680 Speaker 1: kept pushing COVID vaccines in every age group, including healthy adolescents, 632 00:35:38,160 --> 00:35:41,480 Speaker 1: even when they were about the lowest risk population, and 633 00:35:41,600 --> 00:35:43,480 Speaker 1: on top of it, they were one of the more 634 00:35:43,640 --> 00:35:47,839 Speaker 1: higher risk populations for side effects. Well what happened, Well, 635 00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:50,520 Speaker 1: all of a sudden you have parents saying, forget it, 636 00:35:50,640 --> 00:35:52,840 Speaker 1: I'm not giving my kids the COVID vaccine. And you 637 00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:55,120 Speaker 1: know what they also stopped doing. They stopped giving them 638 00:35:55,200 --> 00:35:58,960 Speaker 1: flu shots too. Now, maybe in teens flu shots aren't 639 00:35:58,960 --> 00:36:01,960 Speaker 1: as necessary as school age kids. But I can tell 640 00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:05,760 Speaker 1: you school age kids have about a three times hospitalization 641 00:36:05,960 --> 00:36:09,640 Speaker 1: rate from flu, then they do COVID. But because they 642 00:36:09,719 --> 00:36:13,799 Speaker 1: pushed COVID just like it was as good and as 643 00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:17,200 Speaker 1: beneficial as like measles and flu, all of a sudden, 644 00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:19,320 Speaker 1: parents are like, forget it, you're pushing. You push that 645 00:36:19,440 --> 00:36:22,120 Speaker 1: COVID vaccine on us. Now the data is showing they 646 00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:24,840 Speaker 1: probably didn't even need it. Now I'm just going to 647 00:36:24,880 --> 00:36:27,880 Speaker 1: stop doing the vaccines in total. So if we just 648 00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:32,280 Speaker 1: could narrow the schedule to prioritize vaccines with maximum proven 649 00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:37,000 Speaker 1: benefits like decreasing transmission and focusing on the high risk groups, 650 00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:40,640 Speaker 1: we could restore confidence in the system and help people 651 00:36:40,760 --> 00:36:44,400 Speaker 1: take the most critical vaccines more seriously. Each one has 652 00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:48,080 Speaker 1: a different level of effectiveness, durability, and just overall impact 653 00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:51,719 Speaker 1: on community health, and in an era of growing skepticism 654 00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:55,960 Speaker 1: and declining uptake, we have to be especially careful because 655 00:36:56,120 --> 00:37:01,640 Speaker 1: every recommendation should be rooted in maximum demonstrateable benefit, otherwise 656 00:37:01,680 --> 00:37:05,720 Speaker 1: we risk further eroding the trust. My conversation with doctor 657 00:37:05,800 --> 00:37:09,360 Speaker 1: Monique Jonahan was a reminder that while we can debate 658 00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:13,839 Speaker 1: policies like forlerda's decision to remove mandates. What matters most 659 00:37:14,040 --> 00:37:18,640 Speaker 1: is that families receive clear, honest information to make decisions 660 00:37:18,680 --> 00:37:22,800 Speaker 1: that balance both individual health and public safety. That's what 661 00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:25,680 Speaker 1: I'm trying to do in my own household, and so 662 00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:28,840 Speaker 1: I want to make sure that everyone has the information 663 00:37:29,719 --> 00:37:32,839 Speaker 1: to make the best choices for their own family. Thanks 664 00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:35,480 Speaker 1: for listening to Wellness on Mass on America's number one 665 00:37:35,560 --> 00:37:39,360 Speaker 1: podcast network, iHeart. Follow Wellness on Mass with doctor Nicole 666 00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:42,840 Speaker 1: Saffire and start listening on the free iHeartRadio app or 667 00:37:42,880 --> 00:37:45,120 Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts, and we will see you 668 00:37:45,239 --> 00:37:45,640 Speaker 1: next time.