WEBVTT - Community Self-Defense with The John Brown Gun Club 0:00:03.920 --> 0:00:07.440 Hey, everybody, Robert Evans here, your favorite podcast are also 0:00:07.560 --> 0:00:11.360 legally the only podcaster that that people are allowed to 0:00:11.440 --> 0:00:14.680 enjoy on the internet. Here to introduce a really exciting 0:00:14.680 --> 0:00:17.480 episode of it could happen here. So for the last 0:00:17.800 --> 0:00:19.759 bit of time, I've been in and out of touch 0:00:19.760 --> 0:00:21.920 with a number of members of the Puget Sound John 0:00:21.960 --> 0:00:26.640 Brown Club. They have provided armed self defense groups for 0:00:26.720 --> 0:00:29.840 a couple of different protests in the Washington area over 0:00:29.880 --> 0:00:32.879 the last year and change, UM, and we wanted to 0:00:32.880 --> 0:00:35.560 sit down and talk to them about the ideas behind 0:00:35.680 --> 0:00:38.000 community self defense, how to do it responsibly, how to 0:00:38.000 --> 0:00:41.080 do it irresponsibly. We also had some discussions with them 0:00:41.520 --> 0:00:44.960 about the disasters that happened at the Chop Slash Chaz 0:00:45.080 --> 0:00:48.639 last year. They were not involved with that as an organization, UM, 0:00:48.680 --> 0:00:51.280 but they have some insights on the matter. UM. That's 0:00:51.320 --> 0:00:53.840 going to be coming at you in a separate episode 0:00:53.960 --> 0:00:56.880 or maybe even a couple of episodes in the near future. Today, 0:00:56.920 --> 0:00:59.240 we're just kind of talking about the concepts of armed 0:00:59.360 --> 0:01:03.000 community solf defense. You know, what's responsible, what's irresponsible, how 0:01:03.000 --> 0:01:05.600 people should think about it. I think you'll enjoy the 0:01:05.640 --> 0:01:09.480 conversation here. It is a decent chunk of the folks listening, 0:01:09.560 --> 0:01:12.800 especially the Portlanders, will have experience with UH and that 0:01:12.800 --> 0:01:15.240 that Garrison and I have certainly had experienced with. It 0:01:15.319 --> 0:01:19.880 is people at protests declaring themselves security, sometimes even wearing 0:01:20.080 --> 0:01:23.800 shirts that say security, and picking up a variety of 0:01:23.840 --> 0:01:27.440 weapons off in paintball guns and mace, and using them 0:01:27.560 --> 0:01:32.520 often irresponsibly on other protesters, on on bystanders in the 0:01:32.600 --> 0:01:36.560 name of of of keeping things safe. And UM, I 0:01:36.600 --> 0:01:39.080 think we're pretty clear, and I think most reasonable people 0:01:39.120 --> 0:01:42.640 can see that that's not community self defense, but often 0:01:42.680 --> 0:01:45.840 those people UH certainly claim that what they're doing is 0:01:45.880 --> 0:01:50.600 community self defense. UM. And I'm specifically wanting to start 0:01:50.640 --> 0:01:53.120 by getting a kind of a range of definitions from 0:01:53.120 --> 0:01:56.080 folks as you are, all people who have engaged in 0:01:56.360 --> 0:02:00.640 community self defense, UM, and particularly armed communities self defense. 0:02:01.040 --> 0:02:05.080 What do you see as the actual role of community 0:02:05.120 --> 0:02:08.400 self defense and how should it look as opposed to, 0:02:08.560 --> 0:02:10.720 you know, a guy with a paintball gun yelling at 0:02:10.760 --> 0:02:14.240 kids for tagging a window. Ray You wanna you want 0:02:14.240 --> 0:02:16.280 to kick us off with an answer there, I do 0:02:17.440 --> 0:02:21.600 community defense should be part of the a broad health 0:02:21.639 --> 0:02:25.480 and safety infrastructure set up for a protest movement or 0:02:25.480 --> 0:02:30.359 a community being deliberately vague here, but specifically armed. Community 0:02:30.400 --> 0:02:35.960 defense deals with mitigating lethal and egregious harm to members 0:02:36.000 --> 0:02:40.040 of a community. The goal is forced and foremost prevention, 0:02:40.400 --> 0:02:44.920 mitigation and control of those threats. In my mind, ideally 0:02:45.000 --> 0:02:49.440 community defense would involve no one doing anything, carrying around 0:02:49.440 --> 0:02:52.560 a bunch of really heavy ship and nothing happening, but 0:02:52.919 --> 0:02:56.560 deterring those from harming others. In the absolute worst case, 0:02:56.639 --> 0:02:59.040 it means you have to actually do something that can 0:02:59.080 --> 0:03:02.160 get messy pretty coally. I want to circle back to 0:03:02.200 --> 0:03:03.760 a couple of things. Actually, I do have one one 0:03:03.840 --> 0:03:05.680 quick follow up question for you before we move on 0:03:05.720 --> 0:03:08.919 to the next people. Ray, When you say like carrying 0:03:08.919 --> 0:03:11.680 heavy things and whatnot, I'm wondering what do you think. 0:03:12.760 --> 0:03:14.800 I'm interested in you and I'll probably ask other people 0:03:14.840 --> 0:03:16.880 to follow up when it when it comes to carrying 0:03:16.880 --> 0:03:19.680 and bringing a firearm to either a protest situation some 0:03:19.720 --> 0:03:23.280 other community self defense situation, what it is going through 0:03:23.280 --> 0:03:25.840 your head when you determine what to bring. Because I've 0:03:25.880 --> 0:03:28.280 seen people carry a variety of different guns from like 0:03:28.360 --> 0:03:31.040 shotguns and in one case is of mos and negat 0:03:31.080 --> 0:03:34.280 to a r S or handguns. Um, what do you 0:03:34.320 --> 0:03:37.560 think is kind of the the logic train. I guess 0:03:37.560 --> 0:03:39.680 that you would take, like, what is the appropriate tool 0:03:39.720 --> 0:03:44.920 to bring like in this situation? So that depends entirely 0:03:44.960 --> 0:03:47.680 on what the anticipated threat is and how one plans 0:03:47.720 --> 0:03:52.119 to mitigate the anticipated threat. There's no correct answer for that. 0:03:52.240 --> 0:03:56.360 Sometimes the answer to mitigate lethal or regious bodily harm 0:03:56.440 --> 0:03:59.240 is not a firearm at all. Indeed, firearms are applicable 0:03:59.240 --> 0:04:02.480 in an extraordiny early narrow range of scenarios, but those 0:04:02.600 --> 0:04:06.640 range of scenarios are catastrophic and need extreme measures to 0:04:06.680 --> 0:04:11.200 be mitigated. So it depends on what if you are 0:04:11.280 --> 0:04:14.240 considering bringing firearm, what is the firearm good at? And 0:04:14.480 --> 0:04:16.600 then you get into the minutia of what firearm is 0:04:16.640 --> 0:04:19.720 good for what thing, which depends on your legal context 0:04:19.800 --> 0:04:22.480 and particular threat. But I think one has to start 0:04:22.480 --> 0:04:24.880 with the question is is the thing I'm bringing able 0:04:24.920 --> 0:04:27.840 to mitigate the type of harm I might see happen 0:04:27.880 --> 0:04:31.240 to my community? And to get a little bit less vague, 0:04:32.640 --> 0:04:34.760 there are people who think that bringing a shotgun is 0:04:34.800 --> 0:04:36.680 a good way to stop a car speeding into a 0:04:36.680 --> 0:04:40.719 crowd when it clearly isn't right. So one has to 0:04:40.760 --> 0:04:42.920 make sure that the tool, whatever they have is you 0:04:43.360 --> 0:04:47.279 is appropriate for the task at hand and the threat 0:04:47.320 --> 0:04:51.039 you anticipate. That was great, Thank you, Ray, Um Katie 0:04:51.240 --> 0:04:53.000 you want to you want to give us your answer next. 0:04:53.360 --> 0:04:56.080 I agree with everything that Race said, and the only 0:04:56.080 --> 0:05:00.160 addition that I'd make is that, UM, it's specifically are 0:05:00.320 --> 0:05:06.000 in our cases generally doesn't mean standing between protesters and police, 0:05:07.640 --> 0:05:11.960 but more guiding protesters, you know, our activists or participants 0:05:12.640 --> 0:05:18.080 away from potential situations of harm. It's like, we can't 0:05:18.160 --> 0:05:21.440 stand in front of police and stop cops from doing 0:05:21.440 --> 0:05:24.880 their job. Like that just gets you arrested and uh 0:05:25.200 --> 0:05:27.960 or worse or worse, and that's not what we're here for. 0:05:28.880 --> 0:05:32.720 So yeah, that's all I wanted to, could you, because 0:05:32.720 --> 0:05:34.960 I have chatted with a couple of your number about this, 0:05:35.080 --> 0:05:38.640 about UM kind of the role that that an armed 0:05:38.760 --> 0:05:41.560 contingent at a protest can play in kind of allowing 0:05:42.160 --> 0:05:45.840 an avenue of retreat, you know, especially during confrontations with 0:05:45.960 --> 0:05:50.159 non state actors. UM, I'm interested in kind of what 0:05:50.240 --> 0:05:53.760 you um, you know, you're not You're not to kind 0:05:53.760 --> 0:05:56.799 of as you did, kind of kind of clarify this conception. 0:05:57.040 --> 0:05:58.719 You don't see your role as standing in front of 0:05:58.720 --> 0:06:01.719 the protesters between them the cops and like presenting the 0:06:01.760 --> 0:06:04.880 threat to the cops. What is the utility and kind 0:06:04.920 --> 0:06:07.839 of an active protest situation that you've seen of of 0:06:07.839 --> 0:06:12.479 of what y'all do. So that's a good question. And um, 0:06:12.520 --> 0:06:16.680 if we're doing our job well, then most people think 0:06:16.680 --> 0:06:18.760 we don't do anything at all. Um. A lot of 0:06:18.760 --> 0:06:23.720 what we do is we're watching external potential threats who 0:06:23.839 --> 0:06:25.920 might try to come in. The most common factor these 0:06:26.000 --> 0:06:29.720 days is a car um But generally we're looking for 0:06:29.720 --> 0:06:32.840 folks that might cause trouble and finding ensuring that we're 0:06:32.839 --> 0:06:34.880 not putting ourselves in a position where we're gonna get 0:06:34.960 --> 0:06:39.279 cornered or trapped, and and really you know, just trying 0:06:39.279 --> 0:06:42.480 to help facilitate and work with the facilitators and organizers 0:06:43.320 --> 0:06:46.560 to keep things, you know, progressing in a safe way. 0:06:46.680 --> 0:06:50.719 So as far as what we're protecting against threat wise, 0:06:50.880 --> 0:06:53.960 that that ranges from everything from like angry people who 0:06:53.960 --> 0:06:56.200 are just angry and trying to go home and getting 0:06:56.200 --> 0:06:59.320 blocked by a protest too, people who are who are 0:07:00.000 --> 0:07:03.920 actively looking to do harm to a movement that happens 0:07:03.960 --> 0:07:08.120 to be involved in the protests, or you know, maybe 0:07:08.120 --> 0:07:11.520 it's something as as as specific as a person who's 0:07:11.560 --> 0:07:17.360 looking to specifically do harm to UH organizers. So most 0:07:17.360 --> 0:07:20.520 of the time it's we're focused outward and and just 0:07:20.640 --> 0:07:22.960 making sure that our exits are are covered and that 0:07:23.160 --> 0:07:29.480 we have ways to get people away from potential bad situations. UM, 0:07:29.640 --> 0:07:32.320 that was great, Thank you, Katie Shannon, you want to 0:07:32.320 --> 0:07:36.560 give your answer, it absolutely thanks. I would add there's 0:07:36.640 --> 0:07:40.160 a really critical element to community defense that begins and 0:07:40.320 --> 0:07:43.480 ends with the word community. Obviously, there's a big difference 0:07:43.520 --> 0:07:47.840 between proclaiming yourself security and showing up someplace and being 0:07:47.920 --> 0:07:53.239 there as an intentional community support where the community plays 0:07:53.240 --> 0:07:56.480 a role in you being there and also has some 0:07:56.600 --> 0:07:59.840 influence on that question of what are you carrying and 0:08:00.040 --> 0:08:02.600 what is the response. I think it's just really important 0:08:02.840 --> 0:08:07.640 that you keep the community aspect at the forefront, and 0:08:08.800 --> 0:08:12.560 that's a huge part of our collective work is making 0:08:12.600 --> 0:08:20.600 sure that when we're providing community defense, we're aligning ourselves 0:08:20.880 --> 0:08:25.400 with the desires of the community group that has asked 0:08:25.480 --> 0:08:29.160 us to be there, also filtering it through our judgment 0:08:29.240 --> 0:08:33.040 as to what's safe and appropriate under the circumstances. Using 0:08:33.080 --> 0:08:35.920 some of those filters that Ray mentioned when they were 0:08:35.920 --> 0:08:44.360 answering and what do you see as like like, this 0:08:44.440 --> 0:08:47.240 is something that I kind of gets to both what 0:08:47.240 --> 0:08:48.640 what is an issue with me? And kind of the 0:08:48.640 --> 0:08:51.200 folks who declare themselves a security, which is that they're 0:08:51.240 --> 0:08:54.280 often kind of separating themselves from the rest of the movement, 0:08:54.720 --> 0:08:56.880 specifically in a cop like way to say like, well, 0:08:56.880 --> 0:08:59.079 it's my job to keep you save, even that that means, 0:08:59.400 --> 0:09:01.440 or it's my job to keep things order leaven if 0:09:01.480 --> 0:09:04.800 that means attacking some other people at this protest. One 0:09:04.840 --> 0:09:07.960 of the things that Scott Crowe in is uh in 0:09:08.080 --> 0:09:10.880 Setting Sights, which is a really good book on community 0:09:10.960 --> 0:09:15.880 self defense, does is set out that, um, a key 0:09:15.920 --> 0:09:18.400 aspect of community self defense, as you said, is that 0:09:18.440 --> 0:09:21.680 you're like a member of the community. And I think, 0:09:21.679 --> 0:09:25.199 I guess the question I have is because guns are 0:09:25.320 --> 0:09:27.760 what they are and have the kind of cultural weight 0:09:27.840 --> 0:09:32.040 that they have, it's you people are always people who 0:09:32.240 --> 0:09:35.959 accept being armed as an aspect of their personality are 0:09:36.000 --> 0:09:39.520 always going to be kind of fighting having that dominate 0:09:39.559 --> 0:09:44.600 their personality. And it wouldn't. It's clearly something that a 0:09:44.640 --> 0:09:46.960 lot of people have an issue with. The thing that 0:09:47.080 --> 0:09:49.840 is important is to be a member of the community 0:09:49.920 --> 0:09:53.480 who happens to be armed, as opposed to an armed 0:09:53.559 --> 0:09:58.240 activist whose whose role is being armed, right, Like I 0:09:58.240 --> 0:10:00.000 I mean, do you agree with what I'm saying or 0:10:00.000 --> 0:10:01.920 and like I'm wondering how you think about it, because 0:10:01.920 --> 0:10:03.520 this is something that I'm kind of going around in 0:10:03.559 --> 0:10:06.640 my head about as well, because it's it's it's clearly 0:10:06.640 --> 0:10:08.640 where a lot of the problems happen, right that the 0:10:08.679 --> 0:10:12.000 gun becomes central to the identity of the people who 0:10:12.000 --> 0:10:15.640 bring it, which is something that happens to the cops. Yes, 0:10:16.160 --> 0:10:20.120 and also the mentality of separating yourself from the community 0:10:20.640 --> 0:10:25.640 and not being part of the purpose of being there. 0:10:25.640 --> 0:10:30.000 And so I'll defer to my my comrades here to 0:10:30.040 --> 0:10:31.680 go a little bit further with it, but I would 0:10:31.760 --> 0:10:37.400 just say that there's a significant difference between armed community 0:10:37.480 --> 0:10:42.080 defense and having an intentional presence of armed community defense 0:10:42.920 --> 0:10:48.080 at an event or protest and being a person who 0:10:48.120 --> 0:10:51.080 shows up with a gun. Those are two really different things, 0:10:51.760 --> 0:10:54.640 and so I think that's the that's one of the 0:10:54.760 --> 0:11:02.160 benefits of being part of an organization that does this collectively, 0:11:02.960 --> 0:11:11.640 with accountability, with training, with a known role in the community, 0:11:11.800 --> 0:11:16.200 so that there is um consistency among what we do 0:11:16.240 --> 0:11:21.000 and why we do it, and a history of folks 0:11:21.040 --> 0:11:24.320 understanding that if we're present somewhere, it's because we've been 0:11:24.360 --> 0:11:27.600 asked to be there, and that what we're doing there 0:11:28.040 --> 0:11:32.000 is aligned with and approved of by the people who 0:11:32.000 --> 0:11:36.160 are organizing the event. And then I'll let somebody else 0:11:36.160 --> 0:11:39.400 who's more eloquent than I am uh answered that further 0:11:39.440 --> 0:11:42.960 if they feel like they can. Yeah, I think NOVA 0:11:43.120 --> 0:11:45.680 is up now. If you wanted to give your answer 0:11:45.679 --> 0:11:48.920 and kind of also comment on what we've been chatting about, 0:11:48.960 --> 0:11:51.120 what Channon and I were just chatting about, Nova, Hi, 0:11:51.200 --> 0:11:55.640 thank you so much. Um. I would say that folks 0:11:55.679 --> 0:11:58.360 like Ray and Katie and of course Shannon really put 0:11:58.400 --> 0:12:01.199 it very succinctly, very well together and answered a lot 0:12:01.200 --> 0:12:03.360 of the things that I was gonna already provided things 0:12:03.360 --> 0:12:05.800 that I was going to add to it. But um, 0:12:05.920 --> 0:12:11.920 the specifically the part about the gun becoming the driving 0:12:12.000 --> 0:12:14.760 factor in somebody's presence at the protest, or the gun 0:12:14.840 --> 0:12:18.679 being a part of the personality of somebody who is 0:12:18.720 --> 0:12:22.960 going to appoint themselves as a guardian towards bunch of people, 0:12:23.320 --> 0:12:28.120 I would I would say that with any responsible community 0:12:28.160 --> 0:12:32.880 community defense role within a protest context, that the act 0:12:32.960 --> 0:12:36.199 of being a body in between a threat and your 0:12:36.280 --> 0:12:40.200 community has to come first, and that the that the 0:12:40.360 --> 0:12:45.839 firearm has to be secondary. Um. Uh, there there was 0:12:45.880 --> 0:12:50.160 an incident on the night of protest where uh many 0:12:50.240 --> 0:12:53.040 of us were at risk of being harmed by a 0:12:53.120 --> 0:12:58.200 vehicle attack, and uh, in retrospect, a firearm would not 0:12:58.240 --> 0:13:02.520 have mitigated that threat terribly well, But the idea of 0:13:02.559 --> 0:13:06.920 being in between a threat such as that and somebody 0:13:06.960 --> 0:13:10.959 else who is possibly more vulnerable than you are for 0:13:11.400 --> 0:13:14.840 a lot more of a significance on that. So the 0:13:14.880 --> 0:13:18.240 firearm being there to respond to a threat and perhaps 0:13:18.360 --> 0:13:22.040 mitigate an active, ongoing deadly threat to your community is 0:13:22.080 --> 0:13:24.880 one thing, But I think the primary thing is going 0:13:24.920 --> 0:13:29.360 to be just putting yourself in harm's way so that 0:13:29.600 --> 0:13:33.680 you can spare that responsibility from somebody possibly more vulnerable 0:13:33.720 --> 0:13:35.720 than you. If that makes sense, that should be the 0:13:35.760 --> 0:13:41.040 primary responsibility. And um, how do you avoid letting that 0:13:41.679 --> 0:13:46.439 turn people doing that into feeling like a separate and 0:13:46.559 --> 0:13:50.679 even elevated chunk of the community, Because that again, that's 0:13:50.720 --> 0:13:52.840 what happens with police. You know this idea that it 0:13:52.840 --> 0:13:54.960 starts as like well, we're here to serve and protect 0:13:55.679 --> 0:13:59.599 um and that that through a variety of toxic alchemies, 0:13:59.600 --> 0:14:12.040 turns to this idea of the thin blue line. What 0:14:12.200 --> 0:14:14.439 is the way you push back on How do you 0:14:14.480 --> 0:14:18.320 actually stop it from going from I'm someone who is 0:14:18.360 --> 0:14:21.320 accepting personal responsibility for the well being of the people 0:14:21.360 --> 0:14:24.160 around me UM and putting my body in between them 0:14:24.160 --> 0:14:28.080 on harm's way if necessary, uh, to I it's my 0:14:28.160 --> 0:14:31.320 job to protect people, to it's my job to you know, 0:14:31.720 --> 0:14:33.880 from turning that into kind of this idea of I 0:14:33.920 --> 0:14:37.520 think stewardship in some ways that like some people in 0:14:37.600 --> 0:14:41.440 law enforcement have where like you're there, they they get 0:14:41.480 --> 0:14:44.080 to tell you what to do because that's their responsibility 0:14:44.120 --> 0:14:46.160 to keep you safe. Like, how do you how do 0:14:46.200 --> 0:14:50.080 you stop that attitude from evolving? Because I've seen it 0:14:50.120 --> 0:14:53.480 happen to people fairly quickly when they put themselves in 0:14:53.560 --> 0:14:56.920 some of these situations sometimes and it's certainly not like 0:14:57.080 --> 0:15:00.440 most people, but it is. It doesn't take a long 0:15:00.520 --> 0:15:04.640 time for somebody to like especially if they're vulnerable, to 0:15:04.880 --> 0:15:06.920 get in that position. So how do you, especially if 0:15:06.920 --> 0:15:09.600 you're approaching it from an organizational standpoint, right, You're an 0:15:09.680 --> 0:15:13.520 organization made up of people who come to do this, 0:15:13.680 --> 0:15:15.720 how do you fight back against that? Like, what is 0:15:15.720 --> 0:15:21.960 the active kind of counter programming? If you will? I'd 0:15:22.000 --> 0:15:26.080 see I don't have an easy answer for that question, 0:15:26.480 --> 0:15:28.640 to be completely honest with you, but I say that 0:15:28.680 --> 0:15:32.080 the closest thing uh to an answer to that would 0:15:32.080 --> 0:15:37.440 be that and almost you know, monastic devotion to the 0:15:37.600 --> 0:15:41.720 task that was acts asked of you by the group 0:15:41.840 --> 0:15:45.720 that asked you there. Um. So if somebody asked us 0:15:45.720 --> 0:15:48.400 to be a part of a march and to simply 0:15:48.440 --> 0:15:52.600 look outward for external threats and to be willing to 0:15:52.640 --> 0:15:55.040 respond to those threats of need be again putting our 0:15:55.080 --> 0:15:58.200 bodies in harm's way, but also be willing to respond 0:15:58.240 --> 0:16:03.400 to legal force and kind should the worst case scenario arise. Um, 0:16:04.520 --> 0:16:08.960 I'd say that the ultimate accountability rest with the people 0:16:09.000 --> 0:16:14.200 who asked you to be there. Uh. And there's no 0:16:14.320 --> 0:16:17.720 easy answer as to what that mechanism of accountability looks like. 0:16:18.760 --> 0:16:22.160 But you know, in several layers, that would start with 0:16:22.760 --> 0:16:25.800 your teammates, the people who are part of your organization 0:16:25.840 --> 0:16:28.480 that asked you to be that is asked to be there. 0:16:28.520 --> 0:16:32.160 So other members of of j B G C H 0:16:32.720 --> 0:16:35.960 are you know definitely going to try and keep each 0:16:35.960 --> 0:16:42.440 other accountable. But it's also the larger, the the the 0:16:42.440 --> 0:16:44.600 the the larger contingent of the action that you're a 0:16:44.640 --> 0:16:49.400 part of. UH, to be ultimately willing to back down 0:16:49.520 --> 0:16:54.000 from whatever you're doing if a concern is voiced by 0:16:54.000 --> 0:16:59.240 that community. And I wish I had a better way 0:16:59.240 --> 0:17:04.520 to word that, uh, But just the the the the 0:17:04.720 --> 0:17:09.320 constant vigilance within oneself against overstepping the boundaries that were 0:17:09.320 --> 0:17:14.240 clearly set by people who invited you into a space. UM. 0:17:14.280 --> 0:17:16.159 That's really the best answer I can give for that 0:17:16.240 --> 0:17:19.960 at the moment without further percolating. Well, I mean, yeah, 0:17:20.080 --> 0:17:22.480 for for one thing, I think this is the reason 0:17:22.520 --> 0:17:25.080 we're having this conversation, and I'm getting ahead of us 0:17:25.119 --> 0:17:27.720 a little, is because this is still very much a 0:17:27.760 --> 0:17:31.200 developing thing on the left and and I don't think 0:17:31.200 --> 0:17:34.840 anybody has all the answers on how to do it well, 0:17:34.880 --> 0:17:39.880 although I think an increasing number of folks except the necessity. UM. 0:17:39.920 --> 0:17:42.560 So I think that's part of the reason for the conversation, 0:17:42.720 --> 0:17:45.520 is this like continuing exploration of how to actually do 0:17:45.600 --> 0:17:48.480 this responsibly. UM. But I do think you hit on 0:17:48.520 --> 0:17:53.440 something important there when you talked about the that you're 0:17:53.480 --> 0:17:57.159 there at the invitation of a community, as opposed to 0:17:57.800 --> 0:18:01.240 you are there too to police or to maintain order. 0:18:01.400 --> 0:18:04.399 Like the idea of approaching it as if you were 0:18:04.480 --> 0:18:08.320 to guess strikes me as a really good idea, UM, 0:18:08.480 --> 0:18:13.959 in order to keep yourself on a certain behavioral um standpoint, 0:18:14.040 --> 0:18:16.879 like I'm I'm I'm here at the request of this 0:18:16.920 --> 0:18:19.760 community as their guest, as opposed to I am here 0:18:19.800 --> 0:18:25.120 to protect this community. You know, absolutely, that's a that's 0:18:25.119 --> 0:18:27.720 a That's a perfect way to summarize what I was 0:18:27.760 --> 0:18:30.840 trying to go for with that one. I think that 0:18:30.920 --> 0:18:35.439 the ultimately to be averse to being put in a 0:18:35.440 --> 0:18:39.199 position of power or authority is the best way to 0:18:39.280 --> 0:18:44.280 check against that um and to simply be a servant 0:18:44.680 --> 0:18:48.000 to the community that is again inviting you into that 0:18:48.119 --> 0:18:54.879 space and putting yourself in a servile is not the 0:18:54.960 --> 0:18:57.240 right word. I'm looking for a different word for that, 0:18:57.359 --> 0:19:02.920 but a a position of service, a true position like 0:19:02.920 --> 0:19:08.040 like yes, what what what community defense should be is 0:19:08.160 --> 0:19:11.960 ultimately a service and a burden rather than a reward 0:19:12.240 --> 0:19:19.280 of responsibility and power over your fellow community members. Okay, yeah, great, 0:19:19.520 --> 0:19:22.560 I think next was Ray again, Um, you had something 0:19:22.600 --> 0:19:26.280 to say there. Yeah, I'll finish that thought in my 0:19:26.320 --> 0:19:29.080 notes under the section of what happens when things go right. 0:19:29.600 --> 0:19:32.359 I think one thing that can go right is normalizing 0:19:32.720 --> 0:19:36.960 that firearms are just a thing that can be around 0:19:37.160 --> 0:19:40.040 and they don't have to be your entire ass personality, 0:19:40.160 --> 0:19:43.280 nor do they have to be a differentiating factor. Indeed, 0:19:43.359 --> 0:19:45.800 I think one of the successes there are not many, 0:19:45.880 --> 0:19:50.520 but of community defense in the Chop was normalizing the 0:19:50.560 --> 0:19:52.840 idea that people can have firearms and they're not an 0:19:52.840 --> 0:19:57.000 inherent threat. Um. Thinking of people who are armed often 0:19:57.040 --> 0:19:59.560 and we're pointed out routinely, and I was like, Nah, 0:20:00.000 --> 0:20:03.400 he's He's a cool dude, you know, just a guy 0:20:03.680 --> 0:20:06.919 just like the thing. It's like, you know, do you 0:20:06.960 --> 0:20:08.719 really think the black guy is going to shoot up 0:20:08.760 --> 0:20:11.119 the chop? I don't know that. He's totally fine. I 0:20:11.160 --> 0:20:14.400 know him. His jokes are great. Um. Again, an overhearing 0:20:14.400 --> 0:20:18.040 of these kind of conversations, it helps you know, firearms 0:20:18.040 --> 0:20:20.199 become like part of the tapestry of life, not this 0:20:20.280 --> 0:20:23.880 differentiating factor, not a beauty item, not something to write 0:20:23.920 --> 0:20:26.280 your personality around. It's just like they're there and that 0:20:26.840 --> 0:20:28.879 they can be good, bad, right, wrong, or in different 0:20:29.480 --> 0:20:31.879 and I think that normalizing effect is one of the 0:20:31.960 --> 0:20:34.760 successes community defense can have. And I'm happy to talk 0:20:34.760 --> 0:20:37.280 about other things that community defense can normalize, but I 0:20:37.280 --> 0:20:40.520 wanted to emphasize the you just have a firearm. You're 0:20:40.520 --> 0:20:42.240 not talking about it, you're not touching it, you're not 0:20:42.280 --> 0:20:44.399 thinking about it. You know people have that. It's just 0:20:44.520 --> 0:20:47.200 around and it became pretty chill. And there is kind 0:20:47.200 --> 0:20:50.520 of the Chop specifically, there's an area where firearms just 0:20:50.600 --> 0:20:54.800 kind of were around and nothing happened really and that 0:20:54.920 --> 0:20:59.600 was kind of wonderful in my mind. So from my 0:20:59.600 --> 0:21:04.960 experience with UH, with the club, UH, it's basically the 0:21:05.440 --> 0:21:08.680 even though we're the John Brown Gun Club, the guns 0:21:08.720 --> 0:21:14.000 are like the last thing that we even consider, like, UH, 0:21:14.119 --> 0:21:16.480 it would technically if we were to actually rename the club, 0:21:16.480 --> 0:21:19.440 it would be the John Brown de Escalation Club. UM. 0:21:19.520 --> 0:21:23.720 We would like most of the time any um any 0:21:23.800 --> 0:21:25.960 anything that's gone on. Even when I did visit the 0:21:26.000 --> 0:21:28.359 Chop and there were some weird stuff going on, like 0:21:28.920 --> 0:21:34.960 Brother Matthew being Brother Matthew. People were um using their 0:21:34.960 --> 0:21:39.600 skills to um to to d escalate situation, to calm 0:21:39.640 --> 0:21:42.800 calm out, calm down, individuals to make sure that that 0:21:43.040 --> 0:21:48.560 whatever hostility they have would be abated through just verbal 0:21:48.720 --> 0:21:52.679 verbal communications. Talked about that in a little more detail 0:21:52.720 --> 0:21:54.040 because I don't know who. I mean, I was at 0:21:54.080 --> 0:21:56.199 the Chazz briefly, but I don't know who brother Matthew was, 0:21:56.320 --> 0:21:59.480 or like what incident you're talking about. Something is a 0:21:59.720 --> 0:22:03.840 guy who shows up up here all around the Seattle 0:22:03.880 --> 0:22:06.520 area and also I think he's even said up in 0:22:06.520 --> 0:22:10.440 Portland as well. Um got preacher guy gets in everybody's faces, 0:22:11.160 --> 0:22:16.160 usually not liked by everybody, super afraid of snakes, thanks Jerry. Um. 0:22:16.200 --> 0:22:20.520 But yeah, he like like he's he's a person who 0:22:20.640 --> 0:22:25.160 drives off of confrontation and uses the Bible as as 0:22:25.200 --> 0:22:30.720 his mode of of operation. But um, I remember distinctly 0:22:30.800 --> 0:22:34.720 at at the chop Um he was getting it, getting 0:22:34.720 --> 0:22:39.439 into it with people. But everybody who was around tried 0:22:39.480 --> 0:22:42.119 to talk him down. They tried to chill make him 0:22:42.200 --> 0:22:46.679 chill out, even though he was continually screaming for attention 0:22:46.840 --> 0:22:53.320 and just being weird. But um but in the end, um, 0:22:53.359 --> 0:22:58.399 like that's just like that happens more often with protests 0:22:58.680 --> 0:23:03.520 situations or more situations or direct action situations where we're 0:23:03.560 --> 0:23:07.040 asked to be a part of it by the organizers 0:23:07.240 --> 0:23:11.320 and and as um Ray had mentioned and Nova had mentioned, UM, 0:23:11.400 --> 0:23:15.840 we like we're asked to be there and we're not 0:23:15.920 --> 0:23:17.800 just asking and then we suddenly show up, like we 0:23:17.960 --> 0:23:21.800 get involved with the people who are organizing, any of 0:23:21.840 --> 0:23:25.520 the partners that they that they that they get that 0:23:25.640 --> 0:23:29.320 they bring into it. We try to learn as much 0:23:29.400 --> 0:23:33.520 about what's going on with them, who are the threats, where, 0:23:33.520 --> 0:23:36.439 where the event is, how the event is um going 0:23:36.480 --> 0:23:38.880 to be thought of. We ask a lot of questions 0:23:38.880 --> 0:23:41.439 about it, Like we plan and plan and plan and 0:23:41.480 --> 0:23:44.840 plan to make sure that everything is super safe or 0:23:44.840 --> 0:23:48.919 as safe as possible based on all known variables and UH, 0:23:48.960 --> 0:23:50.920 and then the stuff that's unknown, we do our best 0:23:50.920 --> 0:23:54.880 to mitigate that somehow. Yes we are armed, but that's 0:23:54.920 --> 0:23:57.400 like the last thing that we ever even think of, 0:23:57.480 --> 0:24:00.960 and that's even in our planning. We say flat out 0:24:01.640 --> 0:24:05.320 de escalate first, um. If things start to ratch it up, 0:24:05.760 --> 0:24:09.320 respond in kind. So like if someone you know, like 0:24:09.440 --> 0:24:12.320 tries to like I don't know, like starts to fistfight, 0:24:12.440 --> 0:24:15.960 We're not going to pull out a gun on someone 0:24:15.960 --> 0:24:19.760 who wants to box somebody on the street. We're going 0:24:19.800 --> 0:24:25.280 to do our best to stop so stop them through 0:24:25.320 --> 0:24:28.720 other means, like whether if it's just to block a 0:24:28.720 --> 0:24:32.359 punch or whatever. But the first things and foremost is 0:24:32.640 --> 0:24:37.160 de escalation. Calm, calm that person down and tell them 0:24:37.200 --> 0:24:40.600