1 00:00:03,920 --> 00:00:07,440 Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, Robert Evans here, your favorite podcast are also 2 00:00:07,560 --> 00:00:11,360 Speaker 1: legally the only podcaster that that people are allowed to 3 00:00:11,440 --> 00:00:14,680 Speaker 1: enjoy on the internet. Here to introduce a really exciting 4 00:00:14,680 --> 00:00:17,480 Speaker 1: episode of it could happen here. So for the last 5 00:00:17,800 --> 00:00:19,759 Speaker 1: bit of time, I've been in and out of touch 6 00:00:19,760 --> 00:00:21,920 Speaker 1: with a number of members of the Puget Sound John 7 00:00:21,960 --> 00:00:26,640 Speaker 1: Brown Club. They have provided armed self defense groups for 8 00:00:26,720 --> 00:00:29,840 Speaker 1: a couple of different protests in the Washington area over 9 00:00:29,880 --> 00:00:32,879 Speaker 1: the last year and change, UM, and we wanted to 10 00:00:32,880 --> 00:00:35,560 Speaker 1: sit down and talk to them about the ideas behind 11 00:00:35,680 --> 00:00:38,000 Speaker 1: community self defense, how to do it responsibly, how to 12 00:00:38,000 --> 00:00:41,080 Speaker 1: do it irresponsibly. We also had some discussions with them 13 00:00:41,520 --> 00:00:44,960 Speaker 1: about the disasters that happened at the Chop Slash Chaz 14 00:00:45,080 --> 00:00:48,639 Speaker 1: last year. They were not involved with that as an organization, UM, 15 00:00:48,680 --> 00:00:51,280 Speaker 1: but they have some insights on the matter. UM. That's 16 00:00:51,320 --> 00:00:53,840 Speaker 1: going to be coming at you in a separate episode 17 00:00:53,960 --> 00:00:56,880 Speaker 1: or maybe even a couple of episodes in the near future. Today, 18 00:00:56,920 --> 00:00:59,240 Speaker 1: we're just kind of talking about the concepts of armed 19 00:00:59,360 --> 00:01:03,000 Speaker 1: community solf defense. You know, what's responsible, what's irresponsible, how 20 00:01:03,000 --> 00:01:05,600 Speaker 1: people should think about it. I think you'll enjoy the 21 00:01:05,640 --> 00:01:09,480 Speaker 1: conversation here. It is a decent chunk of the folks listening, 22 00:01:09,560 --> 00:01:12,800 Speaker 1: especially the Portlanders, will have experience with UH and that 23 00:01:12,800 --> 00:01:15,240 Speaker 1: that Garrison and I have certainly had experienced with. It 24 00:01:15,319 --> 00:01:19,880 Speaker 1: is people at protests declaring themselves security, sometimes even wearing 25 00:01:20,080 --> 00:01:23,800 Speaker 1: shirts that say security, and picking up a variety of 26 00:01:23,840 --> 00:01:27,440 Speaker 1: weapons off in paintball guns and mace, and using them 27 00:01:27,560 --> 00:01:32,520 Speaker 1: often irresponsibly on other protesters, on on bystanders in the 28 00:01:32,600 --> 00:01:36,560 Speaker 1: name of of of keeping things safe. And UM, I 29 00:01:36,600 --> 00:01:39,080 Speaker 1: think we're pretty clear, and I think most reasonable people 30 00:01:39,120 --> 00:01:42,640 Speaker 1: can see that that's not community self defense, but often 31 00:01:42,680 --> 00:01:45,840 Speaker 1: those people UH certainly claim that what they're doing is 32 00:01:45,880 --> 00:01:50,600 Speaker 1: community self defense. UM. And I'm specifically wanting to start 33 00:01:50,640 --> 00:01:53,120 Speaker 1: by getting a kind of a range of definitions from 34 00:01:53,120 --> 00:01:56,080 Speaker 1: folks as you are, all people who have engaged in 35 00:01:56,360 --> 00:02:00,640 Speaker 1: community self defense, UM, and particularly armed communities self defense. 36 00:02:01,040 --> 00:02:05,080 Speaker 1: What do you see as the actual role of community 37 00:02:05,120 --> 00:02:08,400 Speaker 1: self defense and how should it look as opposed to, 38 00:02:08,560 --> 00:02:10,720 Speaker 1: you know, a guy with a paintball gun yelling at 39 00:02:10,760 --> 00:02:14,240 Speaker 1: kids for tagging a window. Ray You wanna you want 40 00:02:14,240 --> 00:02:16,280 Speaker 1: to kick us off with an answer there, I do 41 00:02:17,440 --> 00:02:21,600 Speaker 1: community defense should be part of the a broad health 42 00:02:21,639 --> 00:02:25,480 Speaker 1: and safety infrastructure set up for a protest movement or 43 00:02:25,480 --> 00:02:30,359 Speaker 1: a community being deliberately vague here, but specifically armed. Community 44 00:02:30,400 --> 00:02:35,960 Speaker 1: defense deals with mitigating lethal and egregious harm to members 45 00:02:36,000 --> 00:02:40,040 Speaker 1: of a community. The goal is forced and foremost prevention, 46 00:02:40,400 --> 00:02:44,920 Speaker 1: mitigation and control of those threats. In my mind, ideally 47 00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:49,440 Speaker 1: community defense would involve no one doing anything, carrying around 48 00:02:49,440 --> 00:02:52,560 Speaker 1: a bunch of really heavy ship and nothing happening, but 49 00:02:52,919 --> 00:02:56,560 Speaker 1: deterring those from harming others. In the absolute worst case, 50 00:02:56,639 --> 00:02:59,040 Speaker 1: it means you have to actually do something that can 51 00:02:59,080 --> 00:03:02,160 Speaker 1: get messy pretty coally. I want to circle back to 52 00:03:02,200 --> 00:03:03,760 Speaker 1: a couple of things. Actually, I do have one one 53 00:03:03,840 --> 00:03:05,680 Speaker 1: quick follow up question for you before we move on 54 00:03:05,720 --> 00:03:08,919 Speaker 1: to the next people. Ray, When you say like carrying 55 00:03:08,919 --> 00:03:11,680 Speaker 1: heavy things and whatnot, I'm wondering what do you think. 56 00:03:12,760 --> 00:03:14,800 Speaker 1: I'm interested in you and I'll probably ask other people 57 00:03:14,840 --> 00:03:16,880 Speaker 1: to follow up when it when it comes to carrying 58 00:03:16,880 --> 00:03:19,680 Speaker 1: and bringing a firearm to either a protest situation some 59 00:03:19,720 --> 00:03:23,280 Speaker 1: other community self defense situation, what it is going through 60 00:03:23,280 --> 00:03:25,840 Speaker 1: your head when you determine what to bring. Because I've 61 00:03:25,880 --> 00:03:28,280 Speaker 1: seen people carry a variety of different guns from like 62 00:03:28,360 --> 00:03:31,040 Speaker 1: shotguns and in one case is of mos and negat 63 00:03:31,080 --> 00:03:34,280 Speaker 1: to a r S or handguns. Um, what do you 64 00:03:34,320 --> 00:03:37,560 Speaker 1: think is kind of the the logic train. I guess 65 00:03:37,560 --> 00:03:39,680 Speaker 1: that you would take, like, what is the appropriate tool 66 00:03:39,720 --> 00:03:44,920 Speaker 1: to bring like in this situation? So that depends entirely 67 00:03:44,960 --> 00:03:47,680 Speaker 1: on what the anticipated threat is and how one plans 68 00:03:47,720 --> 00:03:52,119 Speaker 1: to mitigate the anticipated threat. There's no correct answer for that. 69 00:03:52,240 --> 00:03:56,360 Speaker 1: Sometimes the answer to mitigate lethal or regious bodily harm 70 00:03:56,440 --> 00:03:59,240 Speaker 1: is not a firearm at all. Indeed, firearms are applicable 71 00:03:59,240 --> 00:04:02,480 Speaker 1: in an extraordiny early narrow range of scenarios, but those 72 00:04:02,600 --> 00:04:06,640 Speaker 1: range of scenarios are catastrophic and need extreme measures to 73 00:04:06,680 --> 00:04:11,200 Speaker 1: be mitigated. So it depends on what if you are 74 00:04:11,280 --> 00:04:14,240 Speaker 1: considering bringing firearm, what is the firearm good at? And 75 00:04:14,480 --> 00:04:16,600 Speaker 1: then you get into the minutia of what firearm is 76 00:04:16,640 --> 00:04:19,720 Speaker 1: good for what thing, which depends on your legal context 77 00:04:19,800 --> 00:04:22,480 Speaker 1: and particular threat. But I think one has to start 78 00:04:22,480 --> 00:04:24,880 Speaker 1: with the question is is the thing I'm bringing able 79 00:04:24,920 --> 00:04:27,840 Speaker 1: to mitigate the type of harm I might see happen 80 00:04:27,880 --> 00:04:31,240 Speaker 1: to my community? And to get a little bit less vague, 81 00:04:32,640 --> 00:04:34,760 Speaker 1: there are people who think that bringing a shotgun is 82 00:04:34,800 --> 00:04:36,680 Speaker 1: a good way to stop a car speeding into a 83 00:04:36,680 --> 00:04:40,719 Speaker 1: crowd when it clearly isn't right. So one has to 84 00:04:40,760 --> 00:04:42,920 Speaker 1: make sure that the tool, whatever they have is you 85 00:04:43,360 --> 00:04:47,279 Speaker 1: is appropriate for the task at hand and the threat 86 00:04:47,320 --> 00:04:51,039 Speaker 1: you anticipate. That was great, Thank you, Ray, Um Katie 87 00:04:51,240 --> 00:04:53,000 Speaker 1: you want to you want to give us your answer next. 88 00:04:53,360 --> 00:04:56,080 Speaker 1: I agree with everything that Race said, and the only 89 00:04:56,080 --> 00:05:00,160 Speaker 1: addition that I'd make is that, UM, it's specifically are 90 00:05:00,320 --> 00:05:06,000 Speaker 1: in our cases generally doesn't mean standing between protesters and police, 91 00:05:07,640 --> 00:05:11,960 Speaker 1: but more guiding protesters, you know, our activists or participants 92 00:05:12,640 --> 00:05:18,080 Speaker 1: away from potential situations of harm. It's like, we can't 93 00:05:18,160 --> 00:05:21,440 Speaker 1: stand in front of police and stop cops from doing 94 00:05:21,440 --> 00:05:24,880 Speaker 1: their job. Like that just gets you arrested and uh 95 00:05:25,200 --> 00:05:27,960 Speaker 1: or worse or worse, and that's not what we're here for. 96 00:05:28,880 --> 00:05:32,720 Speaker 1: So yeah, that's all I wanted to, could you, because 97 00:05:32,720 --> 00:05:34,960 Speaker 1: I have chatted with a couple of your number about this, 98 00:05:35,080 --> 00:05:38,640 Speaker 1: about UM kind of the role that that an armed 99 00:05:38,760 --> 00:05:41,560 Speaker 1: contingent at a protest can play in kind of allowing 100 00:05:42,160 --> 00:05:45,840 Speaker 1: an avenue of retreat, you know, especially during confrontations with 101 00:05:45,960 --> 00:05:50,159 Speaker 1: non state actors. UM, I'm interested in kind of what 102 00:05:50,240 --> 00:05:53,760 Speaker 1: you um, you know, you're not You're not to kind 103 00:05:53,760 --> 00:05:56,799 Speaker 1: of as you did, kind of kind of clarify this conception. 104 00:05:57,040 --> 00:05:58,719 Speaker 1: You don't see your role as standing in front of 105 00:05:58,720 --> 00:06:01,719 Speaker 1: the protesters between them the cops and like presenting the 106 00:06:01,760 --> 00:06:04,880 Speaker 1: threat to the cops. What is the utility and kind 107 00:06:04,920 --> 00:06:07,839 Speaker 1: of an active protest situation that you've seen of of 108 00:06:07,839 --> 00:06:12,479 Speaker 1: of what y'all do. So that's a good question. And um, 109 00:06:12,520 --> 00:06:16,680 Speaker 1: if we're doing our job well, then most people think 110 00:06:16,680 --> 00:06:18,760 Speaker 1: we don't do anything at all. Um. A lot of 111 00:06:18,760 --> 00:06:23,720 Speaker 1: what we do is we're watching external potential threats who 112 00:06:23,839 --> 00:06:25,920 Speaker 1: might try to come in. The most common factor these 113 00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:29,720 Speaker 1: days is a car um But generally we're looking for 114 00:06:29,720 --> 00:06:32,840 Speaker 1: folks that might cause trouble and finding ensuring that we're 115 00:06:32,839 --> 00:06:34,880 Speaker 1: not putting ourselves in a position where we're gonna get 116 00:06:34,960 --> 00:06:39,279 Speaker 1: cornered or trapped, and and really you know, just trying 117 00:06:39,279 --> 00:06:42,480 Speaker 1: to help facilitate and work with the facilitators and organizers 118 00:06:43,320 --> 00:06:46,560 Speaker 1: to keep things, you know, progressing in a safe way. 119 00:06:46,680 --> 00:06:50,719 Speaker 1: So as far as what we're protecting against threat wise, 120 00:06:50,880 --> 00:06:53,960 Speaker 1: that that ranges from everything from like angry people who 121 00:06:53,960 --> 00:06:56,200 Speaker 1: are just angry and trying to go home and getting 122 00:06:56,200 --> 00:06:59,320 Speaker 1: blocked by a protest too, people who are who are 123 00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:03,920 Speaker 1: actively looking to do harm to a movement that happens 124 00:07:03,960 --> 00:07:08,120 Speaker 1: to be involved in the protests, or you know, maybe 125 00:07:08,120 --> 00:07:11,520 Speaker 1: it's something as as as specific as a person who's 126 00:07:11,560 --> 00:07:17,360 Speaker 1: looking to specifically do harm to UH organizers. So most 127 00:07:17,360 --> 00:07:20,520 Speaker 1: of the time it's we're focused outward and and just 128 00:07:20,640 --> 00:07:22,960 Speaker 1: making sure that our exits are are covered and that 129 00:07:23,160 --> 00:07:29,480 Speaker 1: we have ways to get people away from potential bad situations. UM, 130 00:07:29,640 --> 00:07:32,320 Speaker 1: that was great, Thank you, Katie Shannon, you want to 131 00:07:32,320 --> 00:07:36,560 Speaker 1: give your answer, it absolutely thanks. I would add there's 132 00:07:36,640 --> 00:07:40,160 Speaker 1: a really critical element to community defense that begins and 133 00:07:40,320 --> 00:07:43,480 Speaker 1: ends with the word community. Obviously, there's a big difference 134 00:07:43,520 --> 00:07:47,840 Speaker 1: between proclaiming yourself security and showing up someplace and being 135 00:07:47,920 --> 00:07:53,239 Speaker 1: there as an intentional community support where the community plays 136 00:07:53,240 --> 00:07:56,480 Speaker 1: a role in you being there and also has some 137 00:07:56,600 --> 00:07:59,840 Speaker 1: influence on that question of what are you carrying and 138 00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:02,600 Speaker 1: what is the response. I think it's just really important 139 00:08:02,840 --> 00:08:07,640 Speaker 1: that you keep the community aspect at the forefront, and 140 00:08:08,800 --> 00:08:12,560 Speaker 1: that's a huge part of our collective work is making 141 00:08:12,600 --> 00:08:20,600 Speaker 1: sure that when we're providing community defense, we're aligning ourselves 142 00:08:20,880 --> 00:08:25,400 Speaker 1: with the desires of the community group that has asked 143 00:08:25,480 --> 00:08:29,160 Speaker 1: us to be there, also filtering it through our judgment 144 00:08:29,240 --> 00:08:33,040 Speaker 1: as to what's safe and appropriate under the circumstances. Using 145 00:08:33,080 --> 00:08:35,920 Speaker 1: some of those filters that Ray mentioned when they were 146 00:08:35,920 --> 00:08:44,360 Speaker 1: answering and what do you see as like like, this 147 00:08:44,440 --> 00:08:47,240 Speaker 1: is something that I kind of gets to both what 148 00:08:47,240 --> 00:08:48,640 Speaker 1: what is an issue with me? And kind of the 149 00:08:48,640 --> 00:08:51,200 Speaker 1: folks who declare themselves a security, which is that they're 150 00:08:51,240 --> 00:08:54,280 Speaker 1: often kind of separating themselves from the rest of the movement, 151 00:08:54,720 --> 00:08:56,880 Speaker 1: specifically in a cop like way to say like, well, 152 00:08:56,880 --> 00:08:59,079 Speaker 1: it's my job to keep you save, even that that means, 153 00:08:59,400 --> 00:09:01,440 Speaker 1: or it's my job to keep things order leaven if 154 00:09:01,480 --> 00:09:04,800 Speaker 1: that means attacking some other people at this protest. One 155 00:09:04,840 --> 00:09:07,960 Speaker 1: of the things that Scott Crowe in is uh in 156 00:09:08,080 --> 00:09:10,880 Speaker 1: Setting Sights, which is a really good book on community 157 00:09:10,960 --> 00:09:15,880 Speaker 1: self defense, does is set out that, um, a key 158 00:09:15,920 --> 00:09:18,400 Speaker 1: aspect of community self defense, as you said, is that 159 00:09:18,440 --> 00:09:21,680 Speaker 1: you're like a member of the community. And I think, 160 00:09:21,679 --> 00:09:25,199 Speaker 1: I guess the question I have is because guns are 161 00:09:25,320 --> 00:09:27,760 Speaker 1: what they are and have the kind of cultural weight 162 00:09:27,840 --> 00:09:32,040 Speaker 1: that they have, it's you people are always people who 163 00:09:32,240 --> 00:09:35,959 Speaker 1: accept being armed as an aspect of their personality are 164 00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:39,520 Speaker 1: always going to be kind of fighting having that dominate 165 00:09:39,559 --> 00:09:44,600 Speaker 1: their personality. And it wouldn't. It's clearly something that a 166 00:09:44,640 --> 00:09:46,960 Speaker 1: lot of people have an issue with. The thing that 167 00:09:47,080 --> 00:09:49,840 Speaker 1: is important is to be a member of the community 168 00:09:49,920 --> 00:09:53,480 Speaker 1: who happens to be armed, as opposed to an armed 169 00:09:53,559 --> 00:09:58,240 Speaker 1: activist whose whose role is being armed, right, Like I 170 00:09:58,240 --> 00:10:00,000 Speaker 1: I mean, do you agree with what I'm saying or 171 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:01,920 Speaker 1: and like I'm wondering how you think about it, because 172 00:10:01,920 --> 00:10:03,520 Speaker 1: this is something that I'm kind of going around in 173 00:10:03,559 --> 00:10:06,640 Speaker 1: my head about as well, because it's it's it's clearly 174 00:10:06,640 --> 00:10:08,640 Speaker 1: where a lot of the problems happen, right that the 175 00:10:08,679 --> 00:10:12,000 Speaker 1: gun becomes central to the identity of the people who 176 00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:15,640 Speaker 1: bring it, which is something that happens to the cops. Yes, 177 00:10:16,160 --> 00:10:20,120 Speaker 1: and also the mentality of separating yourself from the community 178 00:10:20,640 --> 00:10:25,640 Speaker 1: and not being part of the purpose of being there. 179 00:10:25,640 --> 00:10:30,000 Speaker 1: And so I'll defer to my my comrades here to 180 00:10:30,040 --> 00:10:31,680 Speaker 1: go a little bit further with it, but I would 181 00:10:31,760 --> 00:10:37,400 Speaker 1: just say that there's a significant difference between armed community 182 00:10:37,480 --> 00:10:42,080 Speaker 1: defense and having an intentional presence of armed community defense 183 00:10:42,920 --> 00:10:48,080 Speaker 1: at an event or protest and being a person who 184 00:10:48,120 --> 00:10:51,080 Speaker 1: shows up with a gun. Those are two really different things, 185 00:10:51,760 --> 00:10:54,640 Speaker 1: and so I think that's the that's one of the 186 00:10:54,760 --> 00:11:02,160 Speaker 1: benefits of being part of an organization that does this collectively, 187 00:11:02,960 --> 00:11:11,640 Speaker 1: with accountability, with training, with a known role in the community, 188 00:11:11,800 --> 00:11:16,200 Speaker 1: so that there is um consistency among what we do 189 00:11:16,240 --> 00:11:21,000 Speaker 1: and why we do it, and a history of folks 190 00:11:21,040 --> 00:11:24,320 Speaker 1: understanding that if we're present somewhere, it's because we've been 191 00:11:24,360 --> 00:11:27,600 Speaker 1: asked to be there, and that what we're doing there 192 00:11:28,040 --> 00:11:32,000 Speaker 1: is aligned with and approved of by the people who 193 00:11:32,000 --> 00:11:36,160 Speaker 1: are organizing the event. And then I'll let somebody else 194 00:11:36,160 --> 00:11:39,400 Speaker 1: who's more eloquent than I am uh answered that further 195 00:11:39,440 --> 00:11:42,960 Speaker 1: if they feel like they can. Yeah, I think NOVA 196 00:11:43,120 --> 00:11:45,680 Speaker 1: is up now. If you wanted to give your answer 197 00:11:45,679 --> 00:11:48,920 Speaker 1: and kind of also comment on what we've been chatting about, 198 00:11:48,960 --> 00:11:51,120 Speaker 1: what Channon and I were just chatting about, Nova, Hi, 199 00:11:51,200 --> 00:11:55,640 Speaker 1: thank you so much. Um. I would say that folks 200 00:11:55,679 --> 00:11:58,360 Speaker 1: like Ray and Katie and of course Shannon really put 201 00:11:58,400 --> 00:12:01,199 Speaker 1: it very succinctly, very well together and answered a lot 202 00:12:01,200 --> 00:12:03,360 Speaker 1: of the things that I was gonna already provided things 203 00:12:03,360 --> 00:12:05,800 Speaker 1: that I was going to add to it. But um, 204 00:12:05,920 --> 00:12:11,920 Speaker 1: the specifically the part about the gun becoming the driving 205 00:12:12,000 --> 00:12:14,760 Speaker 1: factor in somebody's presence at the protest, or the gun 206 00:12:14,840 --> 00:12:18,679 Speaker 1: being a part of the personality of somebody who is 207 00:12:18,720 --> 00:12:22,960 Speaker 1: going to appoint themselves as a guardian towards bunch of people, 208 00:12:23,320 --> 00:12:28,120 Speaker 1: I would I would say that with any responsible community 209 00:12:28,160 --> 00:12:32,880 Speaker 1: community defense role within a protest context, that the act 210 00:12:32,960 --> 00:12:36,199 Speaker 1: of being a body in between a threat and your 211 00:12:36,280 --> 00:12:40,200 Speaker 1: community has to come first, and that the that the 212 00:12:40,360 --> 00:12:45,839 Speaker 1: firearm has to be secondary. Um. Uh, there there was 213 00:12:45,880 --> 00:12:50,160 Speaker 1: an incident on the night of protest where uh many 214 00:12:50,240 --> 00:12:53,040 Speaker 1: of us were at risk of being harmed by a 215 00:12:53,120 --> 00:12:58,200 Speaker 1: vehicle attack, and uh, in retrospect, a firearm would not 216 00:12:58,240 --> 00:13:02,520 Speaker 1: have mitigated that threat terribly well, But the idea of 217 00:13:02,559 --> 00:13:06,920 Speaker 1: being in between a threat such as that and somebody 218 00:13:06,960 --> 00:13:10,959 Speaker 1: else who is possibly more vulnerable than you are for 219 00:13:11,400 --> 00:13:14,840 Speaker 1: a lot more of a significance on that. So the 220 00:13:14,880 --> 00:13:18,240 Speaker 1: firearm being there to respond to a threat and perhaps 221 00:13:18,360 --> 00:13:22,040 Speaker 1: mitigate an active, ongoing deadly threat to your community is 222 00:13:22,080 --> 00:13:24,880 Speaker 1: one thing, But I think the primary thing is going 223 00:13:24,920 --> 00:13:29,360 Speaker 1: to be just putting yourself in harm's way so that 224 00:13:29,600 --> 00:13:33,680 Speaker 1: you can spare that responsibility from somebody possibly more vulnerable 225 00:13:33,720 --> 00:13:35,720 Speaker 1: than you. If that makes sense, that should be the 226 00:13:35,760 --> 00:13:41,040 Speaker 1: primary responsibility. And um, how do you avoid letting that 227 00:13:41,679 --> 00:13:46,439 Speaker 1: turn people doing that into feeling like a separate and 228 00:13:46,559 --> 00:13:50,679 Speaker 1: even elevated chunk of the community, Because that again, that's 229 00:13:50,720 --> 00:13:52,840 Speaker 1: what happens with police. You know this idea that it 230 00:13:52,840 --> 00:13:54,960 Speaker 1: starts as like well, we're here to serve and protect 231 00:13:55,679 --> 00:13:59,599 Speaker 1: um and that that through a variety of toxic alchemies, 232 00:13:59,600 --> 00:14:12,040 Speaker 1: turns to this idea of the thin blue line. What 233 00:14:12,200 --> 00:14:14,439 Speaker 1: is the way you push back on How do you 234 00:14:14,480 --> 00:14:18,320 Speaker 1: actually stop it from going from I'm someone who is 235 00:14:18,360 --> 00:14:21,320 Speaker 1: accepting personal responsibility for the well being of the people 236 00:14:21,360 --> 00:14:24,160 Speaker 1: around me UM and putting my body in between them 237 00:14:24,160 --> 00:14:28,080 Speaker 1: on harm's way if necessary, uh, to I it's my 238 00:14:28,160 --> 00:14:31,320 Speaker 1: job to protect people, to it's my job to you know, 239 00:14:31,720 --> 00:14:33,880 Speaker 1: from turning that into kind of this idea of I 240 00:14:33,920 --> 00:14:37,520 Speaker 1: think stewardship in some ways that like some people in 241 00:14:37,600 --> 00:14:41,440 Speaker 1: law enforcement have where like you're there, they they get 242 00:14:41,480 --> 00:14:44,080 Speaker 1: to tell you what to do because that's their responsibility 243 00:14:44,120 --> 00:14:46,160 Speaker 1: to keep you safe. Like, how do you how do 244 00:14:46,200 --> 00:14:50,080 Speaker 1: you stop that attitude from evolving? Because I've seen it 245 00:14:50,120 --> 00:14:53,480 Speaker 1: happen to people fairly quickly when they put themselves in 246 00:14:53,560 --> 00:14:56,920 Speaker 1: some of these situations sometimes and it's certainly not like 247 00:14:57,080 --> 00:15:00,440 Speaker 1: most people, but it is. It doesn't take a long 248 00:15:00,520 --> 00:15:04,640 Speaker 1: time for somebody to like especially if they're vulnerable, to 249 00:15:04,880 --> 00:15:06,920 Speaker 1: get in that position. So how do you, especially if 250 00:15:06,920 --> 00:15:09,600 Speaker 1: you're approaching it from an organizational standpoint, right, You're an 251 00:15:09,680 --> 00:15:13,520 Speaker 1: organization made up of people who come to do this, 252 00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:15,720 Speaker 1: how do you fight back against that? Like, what is 253 00:15:15,720 --> 00:15:21,960 Speaker 1: the active kind of counter programming? If you will? I'd 254 00:15:22,000 --> 00:15:26,080 Speaker 1: see I don't have an easy answer for that question, 255 00:15:26,480 --> 00:15:28,640 Speaker 1: to be completely honest with you, but I say that 256 00:15:28,680 --> 00:15:32,080 Speaker 1: the closest thing uh to an answer to that would 257 00:15:32,080 --> 00:15:37,440 Speaker 1: be that and almost you know, monastic devotion to the 258 00:15:37,600 --> 00:15:41,720 Speaker 1: task that was acts asked of you by the group 259 00:15:41,840 --> 00:15:45,720 Speaker 1: that asked you there. Um. So if somebody asked us 260 00:15:45,720 --> 00:15:48,400 Speaker 1: to be a part of a march and to simply 261 00:15:48,440 --> 00:15:52,600 Speaker 1: look outward for external threats and to be willing to 262 00:15:52,640 --> 00:15:55,040 Speaker 1: respond to those threats of need be again putting our 263 00:15:55,080 --> 00:15:58,200 Speaker 1: bodies in harm's way, but also be willing to respond 264 00:15:58,240 --> 00:16:03,400 Speaker 1: to legal force and kind should the worst case scenario arise. Um, 265 00:16:04,520 --> 00:16:08,960 Speaker 1: I'd say that the ultimate accountability rest with the people 266 00:16:09,000 --> 00:16:14,200 Speaker 1: who asked you to be there. Uh. And there's no 267 00:16:14,320 --> 00:16:17,720 Speaker 1: easy answer as to what that mechanism of accountability looks like. 268 00:16:18,760 --> 00:16:22,160 Speaker 1: But you know, in several layers, that would start with 269 00:16:22,760 --> 00:16:25,800 Speaker 1: your teammates, the people who are part of your organization 270 00:16:25,840 --> 00:16:28,480 Speaker 1: that asked you to be that is asked to be there. 271 00:16:28,520 --> 00:16:32,160 Speaker 1: So other members of of j B G C H 272 00:16:32,720 --> 00:16:35,960 Speaker 1: are you know definitely going to try and keep each 273 00:16:35,960 --> 00:16:42,440 Speaker 1: other accountable. But it's also the larger, the the the 274 00:16:42,440 --> 00:16:44,600 Speaker 1: the the larger contingent of the action that you're a 275 00:16:44,640 --> 00:16:49,400 Speaker 1: part of. UH, to be ultimately willing to back down 276 00:16:49,520 --> 00:16:54,000 Speaker 1: from whatever you're doing if a concern is voiced by 277 00:16:54,000 --> 00:16:59,240 Speaker 1: that community. And I wish I had a better way 278 00:16:59,240 --> 00:17:04,520 Speaker 1: to word that, uh, But just the the the the 279 00:17:04,720 --> 00:17:09,320 Speaker 1: constant vigilance within oneself against overstepping the boundaries that were 280 00:17:09,320 --> 00:17:14,240 Speaker 1: clearly set by people who invited you into a space. UM. 281 00:17:14,280 --> 00:17:16,159 Speaker 1: That's really the best answer I can give for that 282 00:17:16,240 --> 00:17:19,960 Speaker 1: at the moment without further percolating. Well, I mean, yeah, 283 00:17:20,080 --> 00:17:22,480 Speaker 1: for for one thing, I think this is the reason 284 00:17:22,520 --> 00:17:25,080 Speaker 1: we're having this conversation, and I'm getting ahead of us 285 00:17:25,119 --> 00:17:27,720 Speaker 1: a little, is because this is still very much a 286 00:17:27,760 --> 00:17:31,200 Speaker 1: developing thing on the left and and I don't think 287 00:17:31,200 --> 00:17:34,840 Speaker 1: anybody has all the answers on how to do it well, 288 00:17:34,880 --> 00:17:39,880 Speaker 1: although I think an increasing number of folks except the necessity. UM. 289 00:17:39,920 --> 00:17:42,560 Speaker 1: So I think that's part of the reason for the conversation, 290 00:17:42,720 --> 00:17:45,520 Speaker 1: is this like continuing exploration of how to actually do 291 00:17:45,600 --> 00:17:48,480 Speaker 1: this responsibly. UM. But I do think you hit on 292 00:17:48,520 --> 00:17:53,440 Speaker 1: something important there when you talked about the that you're 293 00:17:53,480 --> 00:17:57,159 Speaker 1: there at the invitation of a community, as opposed to 294 00:17:57,800 --> 00:18:01,240 Speaker 1: you are there too to police or to maintain order. 295 00:18:01,400 --> 00:18:04,399 Speaker 1: Like the idea of approaching it as if you were 296 00:18:04,480 --> 00:18:08,320 Speaker 1: to guess strikes me as a really good idea, UM, 297 00:18:08,480 --> 00:18:13,959 Speaker 1: in order to keep yourself on a certain behavioral um standpoint, 298 00:18:14,040 --> 00:18:16,879 Speaker 1: like I'm I'm I'm here at the request of this 299 00:18:16,920 --> 00:18:19,760 Speaker 1: community as their guest, as opposed to I am here 300 00:18:19,800 --> 00:18:25,120 Speaker 1: to protect this community. You know, absolutely, that's a that's 301 00:18:25,119 --> 00:18:27,720 Speaker 1: a That's a perfect way to summarize what I was 302 00:18:27,760 --> 00:18:30,840 Speaker 1: trying to go for with that one. I think that 303 00:18:30,920 --> 00:18:35,439 Speaker 1: the ultimately to be averse to being put in a 304 00:18:35,440 --> 00:18:39,199 Speaker 1: position of power or authority is the best way to 305 00:18:39,280 --> 00:18:44,280 Speaker 1: check against that um and to simply be a servant 306 00:18:44,680 --> 00:18:48,000 Speaker 1: to the community that is again inviting you into that 307 00:18:48,119 --> 00:18:54,879 Speaker 1: space and putting yourself in a servile is not the 308 00:18:54,960 --> 00:18:57,240 Speaker 1: right word. I'm looking for a different word for that, 309 00:18:57,359 --> 00:19:02,920 Speaker 1: but a a position of service, a true position like 310 00:19:02,920 --> 00:19:08,040 Speaker 1: like yes, what what what community defense should be is 311 00:19:08,160 --> 00:19:11,960 Speaker 1: ultimately a service and a burden rather than a reward 312 00:19:12,240 --> 00:19:19,280 Speaker 1: of responsibility and power over your fellow community members. Okay, yeah, great, 313 00:19:19,520 --> 00:19:22,560 Speaker 1: I think next was Ray again, Um, you had something 314 00:19:22,600 --> 00:19:26,280 Speaker 1: to say there. Yeah, I'll finish that thought in my 315 00:19:26,320 --> 00:19:29,080 Speaker 1: notes under the section of what happens when things go right. 316 00:19:29,600 --> 00:19:32,359 Speaker 1: I think one thing that can go right is normalizing 317 00:19:32,720 --> 00:19:36,960 Speaker 1: that firearms are just a thing that can be around 318 00:19:37,160 --> 00:19:40,040 Speaker 1: and they don't have to be your entire ass personality, 319 00:19:40,160 --> 00:19:43,280 Speaker 1: nor do they have to be a differentiating factor. Indeed, 320 00:19:43,359 --> 00:19:45,800 Speaker 1: I think one of the successes there are not many, 321 00:19:45,880 --> 00:19:50,520 Speaker 1: but of community defense in the Chop was normalizing the 322 00:19:50,560 --> 00:19:52,840 Speaker 1: idea that people can have firearms and they're not an 323 00:19:52,840 --> 00:19:57,000 Speaker 1: inherent threat. Um. Thinking of people who are armed often 324 00:19:57,040 --> 00:19:59,560 Speaker 1: and we're pointed out routinely, and I was like, Nah, 325 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:03,400 Speaker 1: he's He's a cool dude, you know, just a guy 326 00:20:03,680 --> 00:20:06,919 Speaker 1: just like the thing. It's like, you know, do you 327 00:20:06,960 --> 00:20:08,719 Speaker 1: really think the black guy is going to shoot up 328 00:20:08,760 --> 00:20:11,119 Speaker 1: the chop? I don't know that. He's totally fine. I 329 00:20:11,160 --> 00:20:14,400 Speaker 1: know him. His jokes are great. Um. Again, an overhearing 330 00:20:14,400 --> 00:20:18,040 Speaker 1: of these kind of conversations, it helps you know, firearms 331 00:20:18,040 --> 00:20:20,199 Speaker 1: become like part of the tapestry of life, not this 332 00:20:20,280 --> 00:20:23,880 Speaker 1: differentiating factor, not a beauty item, not something to write 333 00:20:23,920 --> 00:20:26,280 Speaker 1: your personality around. It's just like they're there and that 334 00:20:26,840 --> 00:20:28,879 Speaker 1: they can be good, bad, right, wrong, or in different 335 00:20:29,480 --> 00:20:31,879 Speaker 1: and I think that normalizing effect is one of the 336 00:20:31,960 --> 00:20:34,760 Speaker 1: successes community defense can have. And I'm happy to talk 337 00:20:34,760 --> 00:20:37,280 Speaker 1: about other things that community defense can normalize, but I 338 00:20:37,280 --> 00:20:40,520 Speaker 1: wanted to emphasize the you just have a firearm. You're 339 00:20:40,520 --> 00:20:42,240 Speaker 1: not talking about it, you're not touching it, you're not 340 00:20:42,280 --> 00:20:44,399 Speaker 1: thinking about it. You know people have that. It's just 341 00:20:44,520 --> 00:20:47,200 Speaker 1: around and it became pretty chill. And there is kind 342 00:20:47,200 --> 00:20:50,520 Speaker 1: of the Chop specifically, there's an area where firearms just 343 00:20:50,600 --> 00:20:54,800 Speaker 1: kind of were around and nothing happened really and that 344 00:20:54,920 --> 00:20:59,600 Speaker 1: was kind of wonderful in my mind. So from my 345 00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:04,960 Speaker 1: experience with UH, with the club, UH, it's basically the 346 00:21:05,440 --> 00:21:08,680 Speaker 1: even though we're the John Brown Gun Club, the guns 347 00:21:08,720 --> 00:21:14,000 Speaker 1: are like the last thing that we even consider, like, UH, 348 00:21:14,119 --> 00:21:16,480 Speaker 1: it would technically if we were to actually rename the club, 349 00:21:16,480 --> 00:21:19,440 Speaker 1: it would be the John Brown de Escalation Club. UM. 350 00:21:19,520 --> 00:21:23,720 Speaker 1: We would like most of the time any um any 351 00:21:23,800 --> 00:21:25,960 Speaker 1: anything that's gone on. Even when I did visit the 352 00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:28,359 Speaker 1: Chop and there were some weird stuff going on, like 353 00:21:28,920 --> 00:21:34,960 Speaker 1: Brother Matthew being Brother Matthew. People were um using their 354 00:21:34,960 --> 00:21:39,600 Speaker 1: skills to um to to d escalate situation, to calm 355 00:21:39,640 --> 00:21:42,800 Speaker 1: calm out, calm down, individuals to make sure that that 356 00:21:43,040 --> 00:21:48,560 Speaker 1: whatever hostility they have would be abated through just verbal 357 00:21:48,720 --> 00:21:52,679 Speaker 1: verbal communications. Talked about that in a little more detail 358 00:21:52,720 --> 00:21:54,040 Speaker 1: because I don't know who. I mean, I was at 359 00:21:54,080 --> 00:21:56,199 Speaker 1: the Chazz briefly, but I don't know who brother Matthew was, 360 00:21:56,320 --> 00:21:59,480 Speaker 1: or like what incident you're talking about. Something is a 361 00:21:59,720 --> 00:22:03,840 Speaker 1: guy who shows up up here all around the Seattle 362 00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:06,520 Speaker 1: area and also I think he's even said up in 363 00:22:06,520 --> 00:22:10,440 Speaker 1: Portland as well. Um got preacher guy gets in everybody's faces, 364 00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:16,160 Speaker 1: usually not liked by everybody, super afraid of snakes, thanks Jerry. Um. 365 00:22:16,200 --> 00:22:20,520 Speaker 1: But yeah, he like like he's he's a person who 366 00:22:20,640 --> 00:22:25,160 Speaker 1: drives off of confrontation and uses the Bible as as 367 00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:30,720 Speaker 1: his mode of of operation. But um, I remember distinctly 368 00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:34,720 Speaker 1: at at the chop Um he was getting it, getting 369 00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:39,439 Speaker 1: into it with people. But everybody who was around tried 370 00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:42,119 Speaker 1: to talk him down. They tried to chill make him 371 00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:46,679 Speaker 1: chill out, even though he was continually screaming for attention 372 00:22:46,840 --> 00:22:53,320 Speaker 1: and just being weird. But um but in the end, um, 373 00:22:53,359 --> 00:22:58,399 Speaker 1: like that's just like that happens more often with protests 374 00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:03,520 Speaker 1: situations or more situations or direct action situations where we're 375 00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:07,040 Speaker 1: asked to be a part of it by the organizers 376 00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:11,320 Speaker 1: and and as um Ray had mentioned and Nova had mentioned, UM, 377 00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:15,840 Speaker 1: we like we're asked to be there and we're not 378 00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:17,800 Speaker 1: just asking and then we suddenly show up, like we 379 00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:21,800 Speaker 1: get involved with the people who are organizing, any of 380 00:23:21,840 --> 00:23:25,520 Speaker 1: the partners that they that they that they get that 381 00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:29,320 Speaker 1: they bring into it. We try to learn as much 382 00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:33,520 Speaker 1: about what's going on with them, who are the threats, where, 383 00:23:33,520 --> 00:23:36,439 Speaker 1: where the event is, how the event is um going 384 00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:38,880 Speaker 1: to be thought of. We ask a lot of questions 385 00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:41,439 Speaker 1: about it, Like we plan and plan and plan and 386 00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:44,840 Speaker 1: plan to make sure that everything is super safe or 387 00:23:44,840 --> 00:23:48,919 Speaker 1: as safe as possible based on all known variables and UH, 388 00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:50,920 Speaker 1: and then the stuff that's unknown, we do our best 389 00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:54,880 Speaker 1: to mitigate that somehow. Yes we are armed, but that's 390 00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:57,400 Speaker 1: like the last thing that we ever even think of, 391 00:23:57,480 --> 00:24:00,960 Speaker 1: and that's even in our planning. We say flat out 392 00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:05,320 Speaker 1: de escalate first, um. If things start to ratch it up, 393 00:24:05,760 --> 00:24:09,320 Speaker 1: respond in kind. So like if someone you know, like 394 00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:12,320 Speaker 1: tries to like I don't know, like starts to fistfight, 395 00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:15,960 Speaker 1: We're not going to pull out a gun on someone 396 00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:19,760 Speaker 1: who wants to box somebody on the street. We're going 397 00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:25,280 Speaker 1: to do our best to stop so stop them through 398 00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:28,720 Speaker 1: other means, like whether if it's just to block a 399 00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:32,359 Speaker 1: punch or whatever. But the first things and foremost is 400 00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:37,160 Speaker 1: de escalation. Calm, calm that person down and tell them 401 00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:40,600 Speaker 1: to go away or just to chill out or whatever 402 00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:44,679 Speaker 1: the whatever is necessary. I mean de escalation. All of 403 00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:47,600 Speaker 1: the best community self defense that I've personally watched has 404 00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:51,800 Speaker 1: been de escalation. Um, you know, they're They're not the 405 00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:54,680 Speaker 1: only situations I've seen. I've seen force used a couple 406 00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:57,920 Speaker 1: of times in situations that were necessary, but by far, 407 00:24:58,160 --> 00:25:03,360 Speaker 1: de escalation is the thing I've seen, um actually protect 408 00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:07,320 Speaker 1: people in dicey situations the most, um, And generally that's 409 00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:10,080 Speaker 1: that's going to be the case. Yeah. I know for myself, 410 00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:14,440 Speaker 1: Like my attitude is we all go home. Everybody who 411 00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:19,040 Speaker 1: shows up there goes home, not to the hospital, not 412 00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:23,040 Speaker 1: to jail, or not to the morgue. We all go home. Yeah, 413 00:25:23,119 --> 00:25:25,399 Speaker 1: I think that's definitely seems like the best way to 414 00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:39,080 Speaker 1: look at it. So into the specific question of how 415 00:25:39,119 --> 00:25:42,760 Speaker 1: not to become a cop in this position and become 416 00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:46,399 Speaker 1: the gun, the only way I've been able to do 417 00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:50,679 Speaker 1: anything in that regard has been to not have that 418 00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:54,240 Speaker 1: be my primary thing that I fulfilled. I'm part of 419 00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:57,480 Speaker 1: a community, and I'm a mechanical person this community. I 420 00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:02,080 Speaker 1: try to have my mission and be not that other 421 00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:04,879 Speaker 1: skill set or that other access to being of an 422 00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:11,040 Speaker 1: aid to a community, be my actual purpose in the community. 423 00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:18,040 Speaker 1: If that makes any sense. M. Yeah, that makes complete sense. 424 00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:21,800 Speaker 1: Um and yeah, I think is the healthiest way to 425 00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:24,679 Speaker 1: to deal with it. So, something I've been wondering about 426 00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:29,680 Speaker 1: as so I'm like not armed at all, So I 427 00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:32,000 Speaker 1: guess I'm on like the other the other side of defense, 428 00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:35,080 Speaker 1: of the sort of community self defense. I think that 429 00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:37,399 Speaker 1: people show up to protests. Um. And So something I 430 00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:40,520 Speaker 1: was wondering about is is the relationship between this stuff 431 00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:43,800 Speaker 1: and you know, between the sort of com mentality development 432 00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:48,600 Speaker 1: and the difficulty of sort of integrating the community, of 433 00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:54,639 Speaker 1: having organizations that are basically independent security groups and not 434 00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:59,240 Speaker 1: for example, like taking like I don't know, take like 435 00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:02,040 Speaker 1: a historical examled like there was a thing in China 436 00:27:02,119 --> 00:27:04,440 Speaker 1: you'd see a lot in like the nine hundreds were 437 00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:07,680 Speaker 1: you know, you'd have armed pickets, right, and so you 438 00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:09,680 Speaker 1: you have an armed force there, but the armed force 439 00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:11,320 Speaker 1: is like you know, this is this is like a 440 00:27:11,359 --> 00:27:13,560 Speaker 1: branch of the union, right, And that's that's how they 441 00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:16,080 Speaker 1: sort of like like that that was the sort of 442 00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:18,680 Speaker 1: solution to how do you stop cops syndrome? Is that 443 00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:22,080 Speaker 1: you know, they're they're they're basically like a part of 444 00:27:22,119 --> 00:27:29,120 Speaker 1: another community organization. And so I'm curious what you all 445 00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:32,480 Speaker 1: think about what the sort of I guess that the 446 00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:37,400 Speaker 1: strengths and weaknesses of being an independent or having having 447 00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:44,600 Speaker 1: sort of independent security organizations versus having I guess, subsections 448 00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:47,600 Speaker 1: of other organizations that are armed. Yeah, I feel like 449 00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:50,639 Speaker 1: I can offer a unique perspective here as someone who's 450 00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:55,880 Speaker 1: been privy to multiple angles of this, including separate organizations, 451 00:27:56,200 --> 00:27:58,920 Speaker 1: ones integrated with others, and ones that are sort of 452 00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:02,640 Speaker 1: just parts of the community. I don't think there's any 453 00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:07,000 Speaker 1: like inherent sort of best answer here. I do think 454 00:28:07,040 --> 00:28:10,879 Speaker 1: being part of a separate organization makes it harder to 455 00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:15,639 Speaker 1: be in the community versus of the community, meaning you 456 00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:18,359 Speaker 1: came from the community and now you're sort of kind 457 00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:22,680 Speaker 1: of separate but not really UM like JB in particular 458 00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:25,439 Speaker 1: has a perpetual problem with people saying, oh, you know, 459 00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:29,199 Speaker 1: John Brown will do X. And this is something that 460 00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:32,880 Speaker 1: has been discussed and often this is to people's immense fire. 461 00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:34,639 Speaker 1: I don't want to speak for everyone here, but it 462 00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:37,440 Speaker 1: does seem to be that so seldom does one wish 463 00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:40,960 Speaker 1: to be said, oh, hello, It's kind of like saying, oh, 464 00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:43,080 Speaker 1: the union will solve this, and it's like, turns out 465 00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:46,880 Speaker 1: you're the union buddy, um right, and never referred to 466 00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:49,280 Speaker 1: being in the first person. So I do think being 467 00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:52,000 Speaker 1: embedded into other groups or being sort of this loose 468 00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:55,920 Speaker 1: diffuse group can make it easier to be part of 469 00:28:55,960 --> 00:29:00,160 Speaker 1: the community because of the structural forces that make that, um, 470 00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:03,800 Speaker 1: it is easier to get there. A separate organization can 471 00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:09,400 Speaker 1: help focus and codify certain procedures training, you know, make 472 00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:12,320 Speaker 1: sure that people have some sort of unified goals and values, 473 00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:14,880 Speaker 1: at the expense of making it a bit harder to 474 00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:19,360 Speaker 1: integrate into one's community. I think given the era we're in, 475 00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:22,960 Speaker 1: I'm not surprised we see many many approaches to community 476 00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:31,240 Speaker 1: defense with varying effectiveness at different times, including JBS perspective. Yeah, 477 00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:36,760 Speaker 1: and um, I guess I'm interested as we are as 478 00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:38,680 Speaker 1: we move on here, and like, one of the one 479 00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:42,600 Speaker 1: of the questions I see is how do you the 480 00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:45,720 Speaker 1: difficulty and kind of you don't want to have a 481 00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:50,640 Speaker 1: situation where there's absolutely no where the community self defense 482 00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:53,120 Speaker 1: contention is anyone who shows up with a gun, because 483 00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:55,760 Speaker 1: then anyone can show up with a gun, and you 484 00:29:55,880 --> 00:29:58,360 Speaker 1: as someone else who's showing up with a weapinar potentially 485 00:29:58,440 --> 00:30:03,600 Speaker 1: like if that person and uh makes a bad decision, 486 00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:05,440 Speaker 1: that's going to I mean as it as it has 487 00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:08,800 Speaker 1: in the past, that has significant repercussions on everybody else. 488 00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:12,080 Speaker 1: And I that is one of the thorny or points 489 00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:15,000 Speaker 1: because I I do one of the things I see 490 00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:19,120 Speaker 1: is valuable. Someone mentioned earlier, like the nice thing about 491 00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:22,560 Speaker 1: it just in not being firearms being normalized, not as 492 00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:25,080 Speaker 1: a like gun culture thing, but as this is just 493 00:30:25,120 --> 00:30:27,920 Speaker 1: a thing that is present in the community. And I 494 00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:31,040 Speaker 1: saw that a lot in Rojabo, right, that everybody was 495 00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:33,720 Speaker 1: armed m or at least the significant chunk of the 496 00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:36,600 Speaker 1: populace had access to arms, but nobody was showing off 497 00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:39,600 Speaker 1: with them. They were not like anybody's like like piece 498 00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:41,880 Speaker 1: of identity. They were just one of the tools like 499 00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:44,360 Speaker 1: a like a like a spade or a shovel that 500 00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:47,640 Speaker 1: were present in the community. Um okay, I think I've 501 00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:49,960 Speaker 1: skipped over a couple of people. I wanted to give 502 00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:53,640 Speaker 1: thud a chance to talk. That's actually very much should 503 00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:55,560 Speaker 1: have in line with But the point I was going 504 00:30:55,600 --> 00:30:58,320 Speaker 1: to make, which is, for me, a huge part of 505 00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:04,400 Speaker 1: community defend is making sure that the aspect that is 506 00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:07,800 Speaker 1: defending the community is not alienated from the community because 507 00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:12,800 Speaker 1: it isn't concentrated in just a few people. Because I 508 00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:15,840 Speaker 1: think one of the other things that we emphasize the 509 00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:20,680 Speaker 1: lots with outside of direct protest actions is you try 510 00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:25,320 Speaker 1: to teach people how to safely operate firearms, but also 511 00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:29,200 Speaker 1: to give firearms the respect that they deserve. That firearms 512 00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:31,680 Speaker 1: are not there so that you are badass. Firearms are 513 00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:34,360 Speaker 1: not there because you know you're going to get into 514 00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:37,280 Speaker 1: a gunfight. And it's well, the first rule, I mean, 515 00:31:37,320 --> 00:31:38,760 Speaker 1: one of the one of the things that we stress 516 00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:42,320 Speaker 1: sort of beyond the basic four rules of gun safety 517 00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:45,080 Speaker 1: is the first rule of gunpipe is don't get into 518 00:31:45,120 --> 00:31:48,680 Speaker 1: a gunpipe. That it's you know, you want to exhaust 519 00:31:48,840 --> 00:31:54,400 Speaker 1: every possible option that you have. And when the community 520 00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:59,360 Speaker 1: at large is engaged and like prey with saying that 521 00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:01,200 Speaker 1: it's sort of it comes from wized that oh, we're 522 00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:05,240 Speaker 1: not relying on these several people to keep us safe, 523 00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:09,320 Speaker 1: but that in fact, as an entire collective we are 524 00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:12,240 Speaker 1: keeping a safe and that gives recognition the fact that 525 00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:15,240 Speaker 1: some people it's not it's not the right choice for 526 00:32:15,280 --> 00:32:20,000 Speaker 1: them to carry again for one reason or another, and 527 00:32:20,040 --> 00:32:25,000 Speaker 1: the at the same time, the power that is present 528 00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:31,240 Speaker 1: in that particular tool is dispersed to the point where 529 00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:38,240 Speaker 1: it doesn't you know, you don't have people getting self 530 00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:42,360 Speaker 1: aggrandizing thoughts because of the fact that they're possessing firearms. 531 00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:46,000 Speaker 1: And I think that's something that we, you know, work 532 00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:49,120 Speaker 1: really hard to instill in evil in a variety of context, 533 00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:52,440 Speaker 1: and I think is really critical to this question. So 534 00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:57,720 Speaker 1: the question that trying to summarize, UM, what the question 535 00:32:57,840 --> 00:32:59,959 Speaker 1: was earlier, What the strengths and weaknesses of having an 536 00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:05,000 Speaker 1: organized armed response are UM. One of the things that 537 00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:09,800 Speaker 1: that I wanted to bring up is the historical context 538 00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:14,280 Speaker 1: of armed response, specifically community armed response in Seattle. UM. 539 00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:19,240 Speaker 1: I did some digging and found in a book called 540 00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:22,320 Speaker 1: History of Seattle from the Earliest Settlement to the Present Time, 541 00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:27,880 Speaker 1: Volume two, which I started pouring through and found that 542 00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:32,000 Speaker 1: there was in eighteen seventy four there was a group 543 00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:35,840 Speaker 1: called the Seattle Amateur Rifle Association, which least Land for 544 00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:39,280 Speaker 1: a range on current present day Capitol Hill. Um like 545 00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:42,440 Speaker 1: right where the train station is if you're familiar with 546 00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:46,160 Speaker 1: the area, so like right where protests always happened these days. 547 00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:49,920 Speaker 1: Later on, there's record record in eight seventy seven of 548 00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:54,960 Speaker 1: the Seattle Rifle Team organizing and shooting contests, and then 549 00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:58,800 Speaker 1: later on in six which is a number that probably 550 00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:01,000 Speaker 1: rings a bell the China. These riots, as they called 551 00:34:01,040 --> 00:34:05,400 Speaker 1: them at the time, happened which was sort of the 552 00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:08,360 Speaker 1: start of the labor movement where everyone decided that Chinese 553 00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:11,360 Speaker 1: immigrants were the cause of all of our woes, that 554 00:34:11,440 --> 00:34:15,000 Speaker 1: the low wages being paid to Chinese immigrants were because 555 00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:17,960 Speaker 1: of Chinese immigrants and not racism. So they decided to 556 00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:22,600 Speaker 1: run every person who looked Chinese out of town. Literally. 557 00:34:22,880 --> 00:34:27,960 Speaker 1: They referred to this as the Tacoma method, and that's 558 00:34:27,960 --> 00:34:31,120 Speaker 1: what they did in Takemma exactly. It started there and 559 00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:37,879 Speaker 1: there was a February seven, this massive, angry racist mob 560 00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:40,600 Speaker 1: tried to push all of the Chinese folks out of 561 00:34:40,719 --> 00:34:44,040 Speaker 1: Seattle or anyone they thought might look like Chinese, and 562 00:34:44,800 --> 00:34:47,040 Speaker 1: they tried to push them onto a steamboat, but there 563 00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:50,360 Speaker 1: weren't there wasn't enough room for them all there um 564 00:34:50,560 --> 00:34:53,160 Speaker 1: cops got involved, a bunch of other stuff happened. They 565 00:34:53,200 --> 00:34:57,920 Speaker 1: decided no, give them time in court. But in the 566 00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:03,120 Speaker 1: process uh of making this decision, you know, the racist 567 00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:08,400 Speaker 1: got a mob together and we're basically just going to 568 00:35:08,480 --> 00:35:11,280 Speaker 1: try and put a stop to this before the legal 569 00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:15,440 Speaker 1: proceedings could to go forward. So they reached out to 570 00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:17,919 Speaker 1: local allies and arms. They had the Home Guards, which 571 00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:20,560 Speaker 1: I'm not exactly sure exactly what the Home Guards were, 572 00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:24,040 Speaker 1: but I assume there's something related to National Guard later on, 573 00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:29,440 Speaker 1: or maybe just an extension of military. But the Home 574 00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:33,680 Speaker 1: Guards and the Seattle Rifles as well as the University Cadets, 575 00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:37,840 Speaker 1: which I'm assuming are of course soldiers in training, and 576 00:35:38,280 --> 00:35:42,360 Speaker 1: pulled them all out and made a community self defense 577 00:35:42,360 --> 00:35:44,560 Speaker 1: group out of them. They didn't put a rifle line 578 00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:48,480 Speaker 1: and held the mob back and enabled those folks to 579 00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:52,560 Speaker 1: get you know, safely, to have their day in court, um, 580 00:35:52,600 --> 00:35:54,600 Speaker 1: and then to protect them for a while afterward. They 581 00:35:54,640 --> 00:36:00,719 Speaker 1: actually organized a sort of a watch because they didn't 582 00:36:00,760 --> 00:36:04,160 Speaker 1: have enough police to to manage the mob. They use 583 00:36:04,239 --> 00:36:07,600 Speaker 1: books from the Seattle Rifles and these other groups to 584 00:36:08,120 --> 00:36:10,759 Speaker 1: uh to sort of bolster the police forces and keep 585 00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:15,239 Speaker 1: peace in the town. So the sort of thing that 586 00:36:15,239 --> 00:36:18,120 Speaker 1: we do is a long standing historical presence. But I 587 00:36:18,160 --> 00:36:19,680 Speaker 1: think there's a lot of things you can look at 588 00:36:19,680 --> 00:36:22,759 Speaker 1: the history of and sort of take lessons from so 589 00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:27,520 Speaker 1: um as as very mentioned, a unified response is of 590 00:36:27,560 --> 00:36:30,960 Speaker 1: course a huge benefit of having a huge strength of 591 00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:34,920 Speaker 1: having an organized armed group. Uh. And it's it's literally 592 00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:37,759 Speaker 1: if someone reaches out and says we need help, help 593 00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:40,560 Speaker 1: is available. Um. But there are a lot of weaknesses. 594 00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:45,759 Speaker 1: Businesses and clubs can be held liable legally, and this 595 00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:48,239 Speaker 1: is an endemic problem within gun laws. It stands the 596 00:36:48,280 --> 00:36:51,880 Speaker 1: laws are written such that they effectively there that it 597 00:36:51,920 --> 00:36:54,839 Speaker 1: comes down to situational context to determine how a gun 598 00:36:54,920 --> 00:36:58,160 Speaker 1: law should be enforced. And the law will never be 599 00:36:58,239 --> 00:37:00,319 Speaker 1: on the side of a group trying to abolish parts 600 00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:03,920 Speaker 1: of the law. So you have to be very careful 601 00:37:03,960 --> 00:37:09,160 Speaker 1: about how you how especially an organized or formally organized 602 00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:13,400 Speaker 1: armed group has to be very cheerful about how they 603 00:37:13,520 --> 00:37:19,399 Speaker 1: But there there worked in play with that in mind. Yeah, 604 00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:22,000 Speaker 1: that was great, And I was unaware, actually I was 605 00:37:22,040 --> 00:37:24,120 Speaker 1: aware of the of the riots. I was unaware of 606 00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:27,600 Speaker 1: that part of the history, which is fascinating, UM and 607 00:37:28,080 --> 00:37:31,560 Speaker 1: I think very important. Yeah, Ray did you want to 608 00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:36,919 Speaker 1: explain the threat onion? Yeah, the integrated threat onion. So 609 00:37:37,040 --> 00:37:40,520 Speaker 1: this is kind of a well known meme in certain 610 00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:45,920 Speaker 1: circles slash actual thing, and it's designed to help you 611 00:37:46,000 --> 00:37:50,640 Speaker 1: understand how to like mitigate threat and sorry, integrated survivability 612 00:37:50,640 --> 00:37:56,120 Speaker 1: onion mitigate threats. Right. So the teel deer is, you know, 613 00:37:56,160 --> 00:37:58,560 Speaker 1: do you want to try to preserve life by having 614 00:37:58,560 --> 00:38:00,440 Speaker 1: body armor and hoping a bullet it's you in the 615 00:38:00,440 --> 00:38:02,680 Speaker 1: body armor, or do you want to preserve life by 616 00:38:02,719 --> 00:38:04,799 Speaker 1: I don't know, not showing the funk up to something 617 00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:08,360 Speaker 1: where you might get shot. And the idea is it's 618 00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:11,480 Speaker 1: it's a meme because so often, you know, people are like, oh, 619 00:38:11,520 --> 00:38:13,040 Speaker 1: they want to get in there and get and get 620 00:38:13,040 --> 00:38:15,719 Speaker 1: engaged with conflict and be the hero. And the answer is, 621 00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:17,399 Speaker 1: you know, you could just like not go there, right, 622 00:38:17,440 --> 00:38:19,239 Speaker 1: and it would probably be a lot easier to do that. 623 00:38:20,280 --> 00:38:23,959 Speaker 1: But there's some real weight to the survivability onion, which 624 00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:27,280 Speaker 1: is like, there are many many ways to mitigate threats 625 00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:30,480 Speaker 1: to yourself in your community, and very often the most 626 00:38:30,560 --> 00:38:34,680 Speaker 1: boring and mundane answer is probably the one that's going 627 00:38:34,680 --> 00:38:37,040 Speaker 1: to actually result in the biggest impact. And the heroic 628 00:38:37,120 --> 00:38:40,520 Speaker 1: answer is probably the absolute worst answer and only what 629 00:38:40,600 --> 00:38:43,319 Speaker 1: you rely on if everything else has gone to hell. 630 00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:47,840 Speaker 1: So that's someone I think it was thund spoken to 631 00:38:48,600 --> 00:38:52,439 Speaker 1: alluded to the threat onion and ways to mitigate harm 632 00:38:52,520 --> 00:38:55,000 Speaker 1: to oneself and one's community, and I had to repeat 633 00:38:55,040 --> 00:38:59,200 Speaker 1: it because it's this, this meme that's been coming up forever. Yeah, 634 00:38:59,239 --> 00:39:02,000 Speaker 1: and it is like the basic idea of the thread 635 00:39:02,040 --> 00:39:05,560 Speaker 1: onion is that you have like this again you if 636 00:39:05,640 --> 00:39:07,160 Speaker 1: you think of it in layers. That's why they call 637 00:39:07,200 --> 00:39:10,400 Speaker 1: it an onion um of like things that protect you, 638 00:39:10,560 --> 00:39:13,200 Speaker 1: and the things that provide the most protection are stuff 639 00:39:13,280 --> 00:39:16,480 Speaker 1: like not being seen or present when somebody wants to 640 00:39:16,520 --> 00:39:20,320 Speaker 1: harm you, um, not or being behind cover when somebody 641 00:39:20,360 --> 00:39:21,920 Speaker 1: wants to harm you. And the thing that offers the 642 00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:24,920 Speaker 1: least protection is having body armor. You know. It's this 643 00:39:25,120 --> 00:39:28,719 Speaker 1: the idea that like um, the things that people buy 644 00:39:28,800 --> 00:39:32,640 Speaker 1: and and focus on because they look cool, UM are 645 00:39:33,040 --> 00:39:36,440 Speaker 1: all things that offer less protection than situational awareness and 646 00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:40,040 Speaker 1: good judgment. UM is kind of the actual like lesson 647 00:39:40,120 --> 00:39:42,520 Speaker 1: I think to take out of the threat onion, that 648 00:39:42,520 --> 00:39:44,920 Speaker 1: would be my opinion on the matter. This has been 649 00:39:44,960 --> 00:39:47,520 Speaker 1: it could happen here, that's all for this week. Find 650 00:39:47,600 --> 00:39:50,200 Speaker 1: us at happen here pot on Instagram and Twitter, and 651 00:39:50,239 --> 00:39:52,000 Speaker 1: find the rest of her shows at cool Zone Media 652 00:39:52,040 --> 00:39:58,799 Speaker 1: in the same places. It could Happen Here is a 653 00:39:58,800 --> 00:40:01,440 Speaker 1: production of cool zone me Media. For more podcasts from 654 00:40:01,480 --> 00:40:04,399 Speaker 1: cool zone Media, visit our website cool zone media dot com, 655 00:40:04,520 --> 00:40:06,279 Speaker 1: or check us out on the I Heart Radio app, 656 00:40:06,320 --> 00:40:09,640 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can 657 00:40:09,680 --> 00:40:12,359 Speaker 1: find sources for It could Happen Here, updated monthly at 658 00:40:12,400 --> 00:40:15,640 Speaker 1: cool zone media dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.