1 00:00:03,960 --> 00:00:09,239 Speaker 1: It is more lucrative to stir up, you know, so 2 00:00:09,320 --> 00:00:13,840 Speaker 1: called rivalries or tensions between artists, because what it does 3 00:00:14,360 --> 00:00:18,560 Speaker 1: is it calls for us to claim positions. 4 00:00:19,560 --> 00:00:22,000 Speaker 2: In this episode of making of a rivalry, I take 5 00:00:22,079 --> 00:00:25,640 Speaker 2: us beyond the basketball courts. I attempt to explain why 6 00:00:25,760 --> 00:00:30,400 Speaker 2: rivals and other disciplines also exist in particular with women. 7 00:00:30,640 --> 00:00:33,320 Speaker 2: And please please listen with the patient ear as I 8 00:00:33,400 --> 00:00:38,000 Speaker 2: give my thesis. The perceived rivalry that exists between Caitlin 9 00:00:38,040 --> 00:00:41,519 Speaker 2: Clark and Angel Reese is also akin to the rivalry 10 00:00:41,600 --> 00:00:44,159 Speaker 2: narrative that exists between Beyonce and Taylor Swift. 11 00:00:44,920 --> 00:00:49,320 Speaker 3: I think with these very public rivalries that happen to 12 00:00:49,400 --> 00:00:54,920 Speaker 3: be like vicariously lived through fans, I think that there 13 00:00:54,960 --> 00:00:58,240 Speaker 3: are a lot of parallels between someone like Taylor Swift's 14 00:00:58,640 --> 00:00:59,680 Speaker 3: and Caitlyn Clark. 15 00:01:00,480 --> 00:01:03,280 Speaker 2: There's a certain compulsion in society that pushes us to 16 00:01:03,320 --> 00:01:05,960 Speaker 2: compare women within the same industries, as if there can 17 00:01:06,040 --> 00:01:10,120 Speaker 2: only be room for one to succeed. This mindset always 18 00:01:10,160 --> 00:01:13,400 Speaker 2: fosters a competitive narrative that pits women against each other, 19 00:01:13,880 --> 00:01:18,560 Speaker 2: making it hard to coexist without that noise of comparison. However, 20 00:01:18,640 --> 00:01:23,000 Speaker 2: I also believe when race enters this equation, that rivalry 21 00:01:23,080 --> 00:01:27,160 Speaker 2: intensifies into something far more divisive. It's no longer just 22 00:01:27,200 --> 00:01:30,840 Speaker 2: about competition. It becomes a battleground where you may feel 23 00:01:30,840 --> 00:01:34,040 Speaker 2: a need to choose a side, and the discourse begins 24 00:01:34,080 --> 00:01:39,080 Speaker 2: to shift. This dynamic doesn't just highlight differences, it magnifies them, 25 00:01:39,560 --> 00:01:43,880 Speaker 2: making the rivalry less about individual achievement and more about identity, 26 00:01:44,360 --> 00:01:47,600 Speaker 2: as though your success or my success and my recognition 27 00:01:47,760 --> 00:01:51,320 Speaker 2: or your recognition must come at the cost of others. 28 00:01:53,040 --> 00:01:56,120 Speaker 2: The Superman needed Lex Luthor, the Batman needed the Joker. 29 00:01:56,280 --> 00:01:58,720 Speaker 4: And I don't need to pick to put Angel Rees 30 00:01:58,800 --> 00:02:00,680 Speaker 4: in some kind of villains roll, because I don't consider 31 00:02:00,720 --> 00:02:04,240 Speaker 4: her a villain. But I think every great player needs 32 00:02:04,280 --> 00:02:04,640 Speaker 4: a foil. 33 00:02:04,760 --> 00:02:07,000 Speaker 2: The reason why we watch it women's basketball is not 34 00:02:07,040 --> 00:02:07,920 Speaker 2: just because of one person. 35 00:02:07,920 --> 00:02:08,720 Speaker 5: It's because of me too. 36 00:02:08,800 --> 00:02:08,919 Speaker 1: You know. 37 00:02:08,919 --> 00:02:10,600 Speaker 5: I don't think there should be any criticism for what 38 00:02:10,680 --> 00:02:12,720 Speaker 5: she did. I honestly didn't see it when the game 39 00:02:12,800 --> 00:02:13,520 Speaker 5: was going on, but. 40 00:02:13,800 --> 00:02:17,120 Speaker 6: The story became more compelling and the desire to watch 41 00:02:17,160 --> 00:02:19,080 Speaker 6: and talk about it became more compelling when she had 42 00:02:19,120 --> 00:02:22,800 Speaker 6: a foil. Angel won a national championship. She has four 43 00:02:22,840 --> 00:02:26,000 Speaker 6: million plus followers. She's at the met Gala, Sizza and 44 00:02:26,080 --> 00:02:28,519 Speaker 6: Magde Stallion want to come sit courtside and watch her 45 00:02:28,639 --> 00:02:29,560 Speaker 6: naked sports. 46 00:02:29,600 --> 00:02:32,560 Speaker 2: The Making of a Rivalry a six episode docu series 47 00:02:32,560 --> 00:02:35,720 Speaker 2: that explores the media frenzy surrounding two super novas in 48 00:02:35,800 --> 00:02:39,160 Speaker 2: Kitlin Clark and Angel Reese. I'm your host, Carrie Champion, 49 00:02:39,480 --> 00:02:46,320 Speaker 2: and welcome to the Making of a Rivalry. This past 50 00:02:46,360 --> 00:02:49,880 Speaker 2: summer belonged to women, not only in sport, but also 51 00:02:49,919 --> 00:02:53,120 Speaker 2: in the music industry. It was the summer tour of 52 00:02:53,120 --> 00:02:56,799 Speaker 2: Beyonce and Taylor Swift. The Renaissance Tour grossed over at 53 00:02:56,840 --> 00:03:00,960 Speaker 2: billion dollars reportedly, while the Errors Tour also did the same. 54 00:03:01,800 --> 00:03:04,680 Speaker 2: MPR spoke with the professor of musicology at the Miami 55 00:03:04,760 --> 00:03:08,000 Speaker 2: University and former president of the Society of American Music, 56 00:03:08,440 --> 00:03:11,520 Speaker 2: and she says the perceived rivalry between Beyonce and Taylor 57 00:03:11,560 --> 00:03:14,079 Speaker 2: Swift is beneficial to the music industry. 58 00:03:14,960 --> 00:03:20,239 Speaker 1: It is more lucrative to stir up, you know, so 59 00:03:20,320 --> 00:03:24,920 Speaker 1: called rivalries or tensions between artists, because what it does 60 00:03:25,360 --> 00:03:30,680 Speaker 1: is it calls for us to claim positions. It also 61 00:03:30,840 --> 00:03:33,520 Speaker 1: causes for us to speak with our dollars. 62 00:03:34,080 --> 00:03:35,200 Speaker 2: But more so, it. 63 00:03:35,240 --> 00:03:39,680 Speaker 1: Fuels an industry that's always been based in controversy in 64 00:03:39,720 --> 00:03:43,600 Speaker 1: some type of way, the cultural industry thrives off of that. 65 00:03:44,200 --> 00:03:46,520 Speaker 2: I'll be honest, I don't know much about the history 66 00:03:46,560 --> 00:03:50,160 Speaker 2: between Taylor Swift and Beyonce. I'm more of a Beyonce fan. 67 00:03:50,720 --> 00:03:52,680 Speaker 2: I followed her career since she was a member of 68 00:03:52,720 --> 00:03:55,840 Speaker 2: Destiny's Child. I watched her lead that group to success. 69 00:03:56,600 --> 00:04:00,720 Speaker 2: Beyonce's debut solo album, Dangerously in Love, followed up with 70 00:04:00,840 --> 00:04:04,200 Speaker 2: B Day, launched her into a stratosphere that not only 71 00:04:04,280 --> 00:04:07,280 Speaker 2: set her apart from her peers, but also placed her 72 00:04:07,280 --> 00:04:10,840 Speaker 2: on a trajectory that has solidified her status as one 73 00:04:10,880 --> 00:04:12,800 Speaker 2: of the greatest performers of our generation. 74 00:04:14,120 --> 00:04:20,400 Speaker 3: I think Beyonce, like among music critics, she's very deified, 75 00:04:20,720 --> 00:04:25,000 Speaker 3: and I think that it's because you know, I mean, 76 00:04:25,040 --> 00:04:28,719 Speaker 3: you watch, if you watch the Homecoming documentary, you see 77 00:04:28,760 --> 00:04:34,200 Speaker 3: how hard Beyonce works. She does it all and she's 78 00:04:34,320 --> 00:04:36,400 Speaker 3: been doing it since she was a child. You know, 79 00:04:36,480 --> 00:04:39,839 Speaker 3: that's something she and Taylor have in common. And Beyonce, 80 00:04:39,960 --> 00:04:43,640 Speaker 3: the way that she's navigated different genres, it has been 81 00:04:44,400 --> 00:04:47,440 Speaker 3: so like fascinating to watch the way that she applies 82 00:04:47,480 --> 00:04:51,080 Speaker 3: her musical prowess to so many different forms. 83 00:04:51,640 --> 00:04:54,000 Speaker 2: But for the sake of this docuseries, I needed to 84 00:04:54,040 --> 00:04:58,839 Speaker 2: contextualize the perceived rivalry between the two. When and where 85 00:04:59,279 --> 00:05:01,119 Speaker 2: did this so called rivalry began. 86 00:05:01,640 --> 00:05:04,839 Speaker 3: My name is Susie Exposito and I'm an independent journalist 87 00:05:04,880 --> 00:05:05,360 Speaker 3: based in. 88 00:05:05,520 --> 00:05:08,440 Speaker 2: La Susie says, Taylor Swift Star was built on a 89 00:05:08,520 --> 00:05:11,800 Speaker 2: loyal fan base in country music. What's at her part 90 00:05:11,839 --> 00:05:13,760 Speaker 2: was her skill set as a prolific writer. 91 00:05:14,000 --> 00:05:17,680 Speaker 3: I'm such a Tailor swift apologist. And it took a 92 00:05:17,720 --> 00:05:21,560 Speaker 3: long time to come around because I think that when 93 00:05:21,640 --> 00:05:23,640 Speaker 3: she was coming up, you know, she was this like 94 00:05:23,760 --> 00:05:27,599 Speaker 3: teen musical prodigy. She's like a machine when it comes 95 00:05:27,640 --> 00:05:31,000 Speaker 3: to writing songs. She's just such a prolific songwriter. And 96 00:05:31,040 --> 00:05:33,840 Speaker 3: she started when she was pretty young, and she started 97 00:05:33,839 --> 00:05:37,120 Speaker 3: in the country music space. And her parents, you know, 98 00:05:37,240 --> 00:05:41,200 Speaker 3: they're they're very wealthy. I think they're both involved in 99 00:05:41,279 --> 00:05:46,000 Speaker 3: like finance before she you know, signed her first record deal, 100 00:05:46,160 --> 00:05:49,080 Speaker 3: they really did help, you know, groom her to become 101 00:05:49,279 --> 00:05:52,200 Speaker 3: a pop superstar, and they had the resources to do it. 102 00:05:52,760 --> 00:05:55,600 Speaker 3: But it also helps that she's just such a good songwriter. 103 00:05:56,520 --> 00:05:59,080 Speaker 3: I know not everyone will agree with me, but just 104 00:05:59,120 --> 00:06:03,640 Speaker 3: thinking about the legacy of like female singer songwriters from 105 00:06:03,680 --> 00:06:07,560 Speaker 3: like the sixties to now. I just think about, you know, 106 00:06:07,640 --> 00:06:12,400 Speaker 3: how we wouldn't have someone like her without without Joni Mitchell, 107 00:06:12,680 --> 00:06:16,760 Speaker 3: or like Loretta Lynn or Bali Parton, Dolly Parton, like 108 00:06:17,120 --> 00:06:19,480 Speaker 3: you know so so Taylor Swift. You know, at first, 109 00:06:19,520 --> 00:06:23,400 Speaker 3: it's like, Okay, she she really started to stand out 110 00:06:23,640 --> 00:06:26,840 Speaker 3: in country music. She's part of this like long legacy 111 00:06:26,880 --> 00:06:29,080 Speaker 3: of women who were very who were speaking from a 112 00:06:29,160 --> 00:06:30,600 Speaker 3: very like empowered place. 113 00:06:30,920 --> 00:06:34,080 Speaker 2: This is not the first time I've heard that explanation, However, 114 00:06:34,200 --> 00:06:37,280 Speaker 2: Susie says, when she left country for pop music, there 115 00:06:37,360 --> 00:06:38,000 Speaker 2: was a shift. 116 00:06:38,279 --> 00:06:42,120 Speaker 3: She eventually, I think became bigger than the pond that 117 00:06:42,160 --> 00:06:44,799 Speaker 3: she was raised in, you know. And when she went pop, 118 00:06:45,360 --> 00:06:48,560 Speaker 3: people got really upset about it. But it just she's 119 00:06:48,600 --> 00:06:50,240 Speaker 3: getting too big for those birches. 120 00:06:50,760 --> 00:06:54,000 Speaker 2: Taylor's music was so transcendent, moving more and more towards 121 00:06:54,000 --> 00:06:56,919 Speaker 2: pop culture, and in two thousand and nine, when she 122 00:06:57,000 --> 00:06:59,680 Speaker 2: won the VMA Moon Award for Best Female Video You 123 00:06:59,720 --> 00:07:03,760 Speaker 2: Belong with Me, Well, that moment, in particular, through controversy, 124 00:07:04,279 --> 00:07:07,800 Speaker 2: solidified her as a star and America's darling. 125 00:07:08,120 --> 00:07:11,440 Speaker 5: I'm really happy for you. I'ma let you finish, but Beyonce. 126 00:07:11,200 --> 00:07:13,119 Speaker 2: Had one of the best videos of all time. 127 00:07:13,360 --> 00:07:17,040 Speaker 3: You know, he famously crashed her acceptance speech for an 128 00:07:17,160 --> 00:07:22,200 Speaker 3: MTV VMA, and you know he was he was trying 129 00:07:22,200 --> 00:07:25,920 Speaker 3: to I mean, he was essentially pitting her against Beyonce, obviously. 130 00:07:26,200 --> 00:07:29,880 Speaker 3: You know, It's set up this rivalry that even to 131 00:07:29,920 --> 00:07:32,720 Speaker 3: this day, I still don't think is totally appropriate. You know, 132 00:07:32,840 --> 00:07:36,760 Speaker 3: I wouldn't even consider like, like Taylor Swift and Beyonce 133 00:07:37,040 --> 00:07:42,160 Speaker 3: both very prolific artists who have like really mastered their craft. 134 00:07:42,760 --> 00:07:46,600 Speaker 3: But you know the way that Kanye set it up. 135 00:07:46,600 --> 00:07:49,440 Speaker 3: He set it up to pit these women against each other, 136 00:07:50,080 --> 00:07:53,720 Speaker 3: and from there there was like a huge media frenzy, 137 00:07:53,920 --> 00:07:59,240 Speaker 3: a frenzy among the fans. And so seeing this, you know, 138 00:07:59,360 --> 00:08:02,400 Speaker 3: just just this tension or I don't even want to 139 00:08:02,440 --> 00:08:05,320 Speaker 3: say tension, it's like outright, you know, outrage. 140 00:08:05,880 --> 00:08:08,280 Speaker 2: Kanye West, for his part, says he wanted Beyonce to 141 00:08:08,280 --> 00:08:11,040 Speaker 2: get her just due. He also says that Taylor Swift 142 00:08:11,080 --> 00:08:13,800 Speaker 2: should thank him because he made her famous. But as 143 00:08:13,840 --> 00:08:17,160 Speaker 2: I'm learning, it seems we're conditioned as a society to 144 00:08:17,240 --> 00:08:20,440 Speaker 2: have women compete against one another, whether it was intentional 145 00:08:20,520 --> 00:08:22,920 Speaker 2: or not. The fan bases have yet to let this go. 146 00:08:23,640 --> 00:08:26,640 Speaker 2: The Taylor versus Beyonce was at an all time high 147 00:08:26,720 --> 00:08:30,080 Speaker 2: this past summer. Their tours were so significant to the 148 00:08:30,120 --> 00:08:34,959 Speaker 2: economy and individual success, but the social conversation always centered 149 00:08:34,960 --> 00:08:37,600 Speaker 2: who is the best between these two supernovas. 150 00:08:38,480 --> 00:08:42,239 Speaker 1: When you look at the rankings of the top tours 151 00:08:42,280 --> 00:08:47,200 Speaker 1: from twenty twenty three, no one is talking about Bruce 152 00:08:47,280 --> 00:08:51,240 Speaker 1: Springstein competing with Ed Sheeran. Why is it that women 153 00:08:51,400 --> 00:08:56,320 Speaker 1: are always hitted against each other? Exceptionalism is measured or 154 00:08:56,440 --> 00:09:02,880 Speaker 1: marked continually changes according to genre of music, sometimes race, 155 00:09:03,360 --> 00:09:09,640 Speaker 1: sometimes generation. You know, it just varies, but hard and fast, 156 00:09:10,480 --> 00:09:12,120 Speaker 1: there's only been space for. 157 00:09:12,200 --> 00:09:14,959 Speaker 2: One woman, and depending on what camp you live in, 158 00:09:15,320 --> 00:09:19,559 Speaker 2: swifty year behind Caitlin Clark or Angel Reese, the narrative 159 00:09:19,679 --> 00:09:23,800 Speaker 2: always comes back to which one do you choose. What 160 00:09:23,920 --> 00:09:26,200 Speaker 2: I've learned is that no matter where you are in 161 00:09:26,240 --> 00:09:28,480 Speaker 2: the world, and I hate to even sound like I 162 00:09:28,520 --> 00:09:30,240 Speaker 2: didn't know I was such a feminist, but it is 163 00:09:30,280 --> 00:09:32,600 Speaker 2: a man's world and the way in which we talk 164 00:09:32,640 --> 00:09:34,840 Speaker 2: about things, the way we view society, the way we 165 00:09:34,920 --> 00:09:37,520 Speaker 2: view women is through a men's lens, and it has 166 00:09:37,559 --> 00:09:40,880 Speaker 2: been that way since the beginning of time. We continue 167 00:09:40,960 --> 00:09:45,640 Speaker 2: to adopt that narrative, that mindset. Societally and also individually. 168 00:09:46,400 --> 00:09:49,760 Speaker 2: We never compare men the way we compare women. And 169 00:09:49,840 --> 00:09:53,200 Speaker 2: who started that men? Who's the prettiest, who's the skinniest, 170 00:09:53,200 --> 00:09:56,520 Speaker 2: who's the tallest, And we've adopted that, And so these 171 00:09:56,559 --> 00:10:00,880 Speaker 2: perceived rivalries only come about and our minds and in 172 00:10:00,920 --> 00:10:05,160 Speaker 2: our heads based on this masculine society that we live in. 173 00:10:06,440 --> 00:10:09,880 Speaker 2: When making of a rivalry returns the comparisons that extend 174 00:10:09,920 --> 00:10:12,840 Speaker 2: beyond the court, Caitlin Clark is cast as a figure 175 00:10:12,880 --> 00:10:17,600 Speaker 2: akin to Taylor Swift, while Angel Reese embodies the essence 176 00:10:17,760 --> 00:10:24,920 Speaker 2: of Beyonce. I'm fascinated about how powerful Taylor Swift is 177 00:10:24,960 --> 00:10:27,080 Speaker 2: and why she has such a loyal fan base that 178 00:10:27,200 --> 00:10:31,200 Speaker 2: spans generations. I always say women ages eight to eighty 179 00:10:31,520 --> 00:10:34,920 Speaker 2: are the foundation of Swifties. That's based on my street science. 180 00:10:35,120 --> 00:10:37,920 Speaker 2: It's not a fact, but I'm sure I'm not far off. 181 00:10:38,679 --> 00:10:42,600 Speaker 2: I've noticed that when people watch Taylor Swift, they identify 182 00:10:42,640 --> 00:10:45,160 Speaker 2: with her in a way that feels very similar to 183 00:10:45,200 --> 00:10:48,320 Speaker 2: the basketball fans who identify with Caitlyn Clark. 184 00:10:49,600 --> 00:10:54,880 Speaker 5: Justin Tinsley, senior reporter with ESPN's and Scape. Yeah, so 185 00:10:55,360 --> 00:10:59,720 Speaker 5: It's funny because my wife she listens to a ton 186 00:10:59,760 --> 00:11:04,040 Speaker 5: of music, and back when we first started dating, she 187 00:11:04,120 --> 00:11:06,240 Speaker 5: was like, oh, yeah, I'm listening to this Taylor Swift album. 188 00:11:06,240 --> 00:11:08,680 Speaker 5: I'm not really like, I'm not a Swiftie, but I 189 00:11:08,800 --> 00:11:11,200 Speaker 5: like some of her songs. And I knew who Taylor 190 00:11:11,240 --> 00:11:14,280 Speaker 5: Swift was before we started dating, but like you, I 191 00:11:14,360 --> 00:11:16,680 Speaker 5: was like, it's not really my cup of tea. I 192 00:11:16,679 --> 00:11:18,800 Speaker 5: don't really I know she's at that point in time, 193 00:11:19,200 --> 00:11:23,160 Speaker 5: she was quote unquote just a superstar. Now she's like, 194 00:11:24,080 --> 00:11:26,800 Speaker 5: I don't even know what what's past the megastar. 195 00:11:26,920 --> 00:11:30,760 Speaker 2: I don't know, Clark a supernova. 196 00:11:30,800 --> 00:11:32,600 Speaker 5: Sad that's what we going to show with for the 197 00:11:32,600 --> 00:11:35,440 Speaker 5: second this conversation. She's a supernova. So over the last 198 00:11:35,520 --> 00:11:38,640 Speaker 5: couple of years, I've tried to do my due diligence 199 00:11:38,679 --> 00:11:41,320 Speaker 5: and just read up on her and understand what the 200 00:11:41,360 --> 00:11:44,360 Speaker 5: phenomenon is about her, even if you know, she's not 201 00:11:44,440 --> 00:11:46,120 Speaker 5: my cup of tea, but I'm a journalist. I need 202 00:11:46,160 --> 00:11:50,080 Speaker 5: to know, you know, why things are so important. And 203 00:11:50,880 --> 00:11:54,920 Speaker 5: what I found about Taylor Swift is this is even 204 00:11:54,960 --> 00:11:58,760 Speaker 5: before Travis Kelce in the NFL, before that conversation, her 205 00:11:58,960 --> 00:12:04,520 Speaker 5: music really connected with the younger generations of American And 206 00:12:04,559 --> 00:12:06,680 Speaker 5: if you go back through the history of music in 207 00:12:06,720 --> 00:12:11,440 Speaker 5: this country, if a music can galvanize the young people, 208 00:12:12,000 --> 00:12:14,720 Speaker 5: you're gonna have that is that is the type of 209 00:12:14,760 --> 00:12:17,960 Speaker 5: power that you can't put a dollar sign behind because 210 00:12:18,040 --> 00:12:20,120 Speaker 5: because those young people are going to grow older with 211 00:12:20,240 --> 00:12:22,920 Speaker 5: your music and they're going to, like base I don't 212 00:12:22,920 --> 00:12:24,679 Speaker 5: want to say, pledge their allegiance to you, but like 213 00:12:24,720 --> 00:12:27,400 Speaker 5: they're gonna stand behind you. And if you look at 214 00:12:27,400 --> 00:12:31,280 Speaker 5: Taylor Swift and you look at the reaction she gets 215 00:12:31,320 --> 00:12:35,120 Speaker 5: when you know, former President Donald Trump says he hates 216 00:12:35,160 --> 00:12:37,840 Speaker 5: her on social media, you saw the backlash against that. 217 00:12:38,320 --> 00:12:42,160 Speaker 5: You see when she endorses a candidate for president that 218 00:12:43,320 --> 00:12:46,400 Speaker 5: voter registration increases in some states by nearly a million. 219 00:12:46,480 --> 00:12:49,920 Speaker 5: Young people, Like that's power. Forget the you know her 220 00:12:50,440 --> 00:12:53,200 Speaker 5: ears toward grosses over a billion dollars, Like, yes, we 221 00:12:53,360 --> 00:12:56,600 Speaker 5: know that, but that's like significant type of power. And 222 00:12:56,640 --> 00:12:59,320 Speaker 5: so when you look at a Caitlin Clark and you 223 00:12:59,360 --> 00:13:02,040 Speaker 5: look at the fact they're like, yes, the ratings are up, 224 00:13:02,080 --> 00:13:07,040 Speaker 5: and that's great. But when you see the emotional response 225 00:13:07,120 --> 00:13:10,240 Speaker 5: that a lot of people get from watching her play basketball, 226 00:13:10,360 --> 00:13:13,599 Speaker 5: watching her break these records, you realize, like, yo, this 227 00:13:13,840 --> 00:13:18,679 Speaker 5: isn't just basketball here, It's deeper than that. So when 228 00:13:18,720 --> 00:13:21,520 Speaker 5: you call it the Caitlyn Clark effect and you look 229 00:13:21,559 --> 00:13:26,360 Speaker 5: at the impact that Caitlyn Clark has had on women's 230 00:13:26,400 --> 00:13:30,560 Speaker 5: basketball as a whole, you really can't deny it. It 231 00:13:30,600 --> 00:13:33,960 Speaker 5: may not be apples to apples, but like you understand 232 00:13:34,040 --> 00:13:38,160 Speaker 5: where the comparison comes from, because she has a ton 233 00:13:38,480 --> 00:13:41,760 Speaker 5: of power as it relates to basketball. 234 00:13:42,559 --> 00:13:46,439 Speaker 2: And you say, look at the response of watching her play. 235 00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:49,560 Speaker 2: Talk to me a little bit more about that. It's 236 00:13:49,600 --> 00:13:53,960 Speaker 2: more than a visceral experience, right, it means so much more. 237 00:13:54,520 --> 00:13:56,760 Speaker 2: I want to know what it means to her fan base. 238 00:13:57,200 --> 00:14:00,720 Speaker 5: You know, she's coming around at such a time when 239 00:14:00,800 --> 00:14:02,800 Speaker 5: and this sometimes this is a negative thing too, she 240 00:14:02,880 --> 00:14:06,680 Speaker 5: comes around at the time we're as connected as we've 241 00:14:06,720 --> 00:14:10,160 Speaker 5: ever been. You know, Caitlyn Clark hits twelve threes in 242 00:14:10,200 --> 00:14:12,520 Speaker 5: a college game and next thing you know, ESPN or 243 00:14:12,559 --> 00:14:14,720 Speaker 5: House of Highlights are over time. They're posting it on 244 00:14:14,760 --> 00:14:17,880 Speaker 5: their Instagram and it's getting hundreds of thousands of views 245 00:14:17,880 --> 00:14:21,200 Speaker 5: and hundreds of thousands of comments. That's how you create 246 00:14:21,280 --> 00:14:24,640 Speaker 5: conversations beyond the game. Because even when the game is off, 247 00:14:24,640 --> 00:14:27,920 Speaker 5: people are still sharing the highlights. People are still saying like, yo, 248 00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:30,680 Speaker 5: you have to watch this person play this game. Like 249 00:14:30,720 --> 00:14:34,560 Speaker 5: it is appointment viewing. It's not just important to the 250 00:14:34,600 --> 00:14:40,520 Speaker 5: game of basketball. It's a cultural groundswell, and very few 251 00:14:40,560 --> 00:14:45,880 Speaker 5: players actually do that for their respective sports. Like in 252 00:14:45,920 --> 00:14:49,000 Speaker 5: a world where everything is on our phones now, there 253 00:14:49,040 --> 00:14:52,240 Speaker 5: are very few things that are still considered appointment viewing. 254 00:14:52,520 --> 00:14:56,160 Speaker 5: Or when this athlete comes to town, you got to 255 00:14:56,200 --> 00:14:58,720 Speaker 5: go see them play. It's like when Michael Jordan was playing, like, oh, 256 00:14:58,920 --> 00:15:01,560 Speaker 5: Jordan's coming to DC, we gotta go watch and play, 257 00:15:01,640 --> 00:15:04,160 Speaker 5: or Jordan's coming to you from LA Jordan's coming to 258 00:15:04,160 --> 00:15:06,400 Speaker 5: play the Lakers. We gotta go see Michael Jordan. 259 00:15:06,440 --> 00:15:10,120 Speaker 2: I don't need to see him trash crash and she 260 00:15:10,320 --> 00:15:11,520 Speaker 2: you will still go to boom. 261 00:15:11,800 --> 00:15:14,480 Speaker 5: That's the thing about it too. But you know she 262 00:15:14,760 --> 00:15:17,200 Speaker 5: holds she holds this type of power. 263 00:15:17,640 --> 00:15:21,320 Speaker 2: Caitlin Clark's power has launched a movement in women's sports. 264 00:15:21,720 --> 00:15:25,000 Speaker 2: Her power has taken the WNBA from the shadows and 265 00:15:25,080 --> 00:15:27,720 Speaker 2: centered the sport in a way like we have never seen. 266 00:15:28,520 --> 00:15:32,320 Speaker 2: Her power to me is very similar to that of 267 00:15:32,360 --> 00:15:36,080 Speaker 2: Taylor Swift's and when I think of Angel Reese. She 268 00:15:36,200 --> 00:15:39,000 Speaker 2: embodies much of what Beyonce has already given us through 269 00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:45,680 Speaker 2: her music. It's power, unapologetic, and a commanding presence. Justin Tinsley. 270 00:15:45,840 --> 00:15:50,640 Speaker 5: Once again, Angel Reese has a responsibility that so many 271 00:15:50,680 --> 00:15:54,240 Speaker 5: people in this country will never truly be able to 272 00:15:54,560 --> 00:15:59,000 Speaker 5: understand what it's like. And even though I empathize, I 273 00:15:59,080 --> 00:16:02,040 Speaker 5: still won't know been a young black woman in America 274 00:16:02,560 --> 00:16:04,880 Speaker 5: with a lot of talent and you're not afraid to 275 00:16:04,920 --> 00:16:11,400 Speaker 5: speak your mind. That scares this country to death because 276 00:16:11,560 --> 00:16:14,160 Speaker 5: for so long, the role, especially you know, the role 277 00:16:14,240 --> 00:16:17,480 Speaker 5: of women in this country was to be seen and 278 00:16:17,560 --> 00:16:21,240 Speaker 5: not heard, and definitely for black women. And as foolish 279 00:16:21,280 --> 00:16:24,480 Speaker 5: as it was, so many people in twenty twenty four 280 00:16:24,640 --> 00:16:27,840 Speaker 5: still have this thought. So many people still feel like 281 00:16:27,960 --> 00:16:31,080 Speaker 5: her expressing herself is a form of violence, or her 282 00:16:31,120 --> 00:16:35,120 Speaker 5: expressing herself is to destroy another person, when in reality 283 00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:39,160 Speaker 5: is she's just taking her individuality and showcasing it to 284 00:16:39,200 --> 00:16:43,080 Speaker 5: the world, like I will never ever forget that LSU 285 00:16:43,240 --> 00:16:46,800 Speaker 5: IOWA National Championship game, and you know she obviously did that. 286 00:16:46,840 --> 00:16:50,280 Speaker 5: She pointed to her finger. I in the moment, I 287 00:16:50,360 --> 00:16:52,640 Speaker 5: had no clue it was going to become what it became. 288 00:16:53,200 --> 00:16:55,920 Speaker 5: I was like, Yo, this is this is Angel Reese's 289 00:16:55,960 --> 00:16:59,600 Speaker 5: star turn. Like she's been a star within college basketball. 290 00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:06,159 Speaker 5: Now she's about to be this like cultural recognizable figure 291 00:17:06,240 --> 00:17:09,120 Speaker 5: that goes just beyond the game of basketball. She's this 292 00:17:09,359 --> 00:17:12,600 Speaker 5: you know, she's this tall black girl. She's got Baltimore 293 00:17:12,640 --> 00:17:16,320 Speaker 5: to the core in her personality and it sticks out 294 00:17:16,359 --> 00:17:20,320 Speaker 5: in a way for me. That was beautiful and I 295 00:17:20,359 --> 00:17:24,840 Speaker 5: loved it, but I'll never forget. Soon as she did that, 296 00:17:25,680 --> 00:17:28,719 Speaker 5: I started getting texts from people I started seeing on 297 00:17:28,760 --> 00:17:31,920 Speaker 5: social media like oh, this is very class list of her, 298 00:17:32,160 --> 00:17:35,600 Speaker 5: Like she's she's trying to show the game, and like, oh, 299 00:17:35,720 --> 00:17:37,399 Speaker 5: she doesn't deserve this moment. 300 00:17:37,480 --> 00:17:41,000 Speaker 2: I'm like, but to your original point, is her responsibility 301 00:17:41,040 --> 00:17:42,520 Speaker 2: to be her unauthentic self? 302 00:17:43,440 --> 00:17:47,399 Speaker 5: Yeah, her responsibility is to beat herself. It is irresponsible 303 00:17:47,440 --> 00:17:50,280 Speaker 5: to be your unauthentic self. And people say they want 304 00:17:50,320 --> 00:17:53,000 Speaker 5: that all the time. They say they want that, but 305 00:17:53,359 --> 00:17:56,160 Speaker 5: a lot of people want I'll just say Andrew Reeson 306 00:17:56,440 --> 00:17:59,240 Speaker 5: in this case, for the sake of this conversation at 307 00:17:59,560 --> 00:18:03,600 Speaker 5: a lot of people want andre rees to be her 308 00:18:04,680 --> 00:18:07,280 Speaker 5: their their version of authenticity, I guess is what I'm 309 00:18:07,280 --> 00:18:10,400 Speaker 5: trying to say, Like Okay, how I see authenticity If 310 00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:12,840 Speaker 5: she fits in that mold, and guess what she's authentic. 311 00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:16,000 Speaker 5: If she doesn't fit that mold, and guess what she's inauthentic. 312 00:18:16,320 --> 00:18:19,720 Speaker 5: She's a show boat, she's bad for the sport x Y. 313 00:18:19,840 --> 00:18:23,000 Speaker 5: And we saw these conversations and it was just a 314 00:18:23,080 --> 00:18:28,080 Speaker 5: microcosm of being a black woman in America in so 315 00:18:28,119 --> 00:18:31,879 Speaker 5: many cases, like she had just achieved this rare level 316 00:18:32,080 --> 00:18:35,119 Speaker 5: of success in the organized sports. She just won a 317 00:18:35,200 --> 00:18:39,159 Speaker 5: national championship. She had beat the darling of the sport 318 00:18:39,400 --> 00:18:41,800 Speaker 5: and Caitlin Clark and IOWA, who were the biggest story 319 00:18:41,840 --> 00:18:45,680 Speaker 5: in sports that year, honestly, and the only thing people 320 00:18:45,800 --> 00:18:48,200 Speaker 5: can talk about with her was just like, oh, she's 321 00:18:48,240 --> 00:18:50,760 Speaker 5: a show boat. That was very rude of her. 322 00:18:51,040 --> 00:18:53,280 Speaker 2: And that also has everything to do with being a woman. 323 00:18:53,480 --> 00:18:55,200 Speaker 5: Yeah, everything that has to do with being a woman 324 00:18:55,320 --> 00:18:56,720 Speaker 5: in particular, Black woman. 325 00:18:56,640 --> 00:19:01,480 Speaker 2: In particular, Black woman in particular. And so I just 326 00:19:01,520 --> 00:19:03,479 Speaker 2: want to go back because I'm trying to understand what 327 00:19:03,520 --> 00:19:06,280 Speaker 2: you're saying, because I think it's I think it is powerful. 328 00:19:06,920 --> 00:19:11,639 Speaker 2: Her responsibility. With great power comes great responsibility. Yeah, and 329 00:19:11,720 --> 00:19:15,560 Speaker 2: her responsibility is to be her authentic self. Yeah, perhaps 330 00:19:15,680 --> 00:19:19,639 Speaker 2: to create a new mold of what should be. Yeah, 331 00:19:19,800 --> 00:19:22,800 Speaker 2: is that what we are saying here? She is she 332 00:19:22,920 --> 00:19:25,760 Speaker 2: in a in a realm in which she will be 333 00:19:25,880 --> 00:19:29,239 Speaker 2: the person to illustrate what it should and can look like. 334 00:19:29,320 --> 00:19:32,440 Speaker 2: If that is true, Yeah, that is a black woman. 335 00:19:32,880 --> 00:19:36,320 Speaker 5: That's absolutely you know, it's her responsibility. It's not her 336 00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:40,680 Speaker 5: responsibility to just do it by herself. It's her responsibility 337 00:19:40,960 --> 00:19:45,040 Speaker 5: to do her part in that. Now, the really difficult 338 00:19:45,040 --> 00:19:49,840 Speaker 5: part is maintaining that responsibility and acting on that responsibility. 339 00:19:50,040 --> 00:19:52,879 Speaker 5: She's going to have so much pushback for that. 340 00:19:53,520 --> 00:19:56,280 Speaker 2: But being authentic isn't for the week, as we see 341 00:19:56,320 --> 00:19:58,640 Speaker 2: with Angel and as we have seen with Beyonce through 342 00:19:58,680 --> 00:20:02,080 Speaker 2: the years, case point super Bowl twenty thirteen. 343 00:20:02,280 --> 00:20:06,240 Speaker 3: I think about, for example, just I mean the uproar 344 00:20:06,400 --> 00:20:11,600 Speaker 3: there always is whenever she expresses any kind of I 345 00:20:11,600 --> 00:20:15,320 Speaker 3: don't know, any kind of opinion really, or like I 346 00:20:15,359 --> 00:20:17,680 Speaker 3: think about the time that she performed the Super Bowl 347 00:20:17,800 --> 00:20:23,000 Speaker 3: where she opened and Coldplay was there, and her performance 348 00:20:23,160 --> 00:20:26,520 Speaker 3: it like evoked memories of like the Black Panthers and 349 00:20:26,560 --> 00:20:30,400 Speaker 3: like their history and they're like very pro black agenda. 350 00:20:30,560 --> 00:20:33,120 Speaker 3: So obviously a lot of people I think in white 351 00:20:33,160 --> 00:20:37,040 Speaker 3: America got really threatened by that, they were like shut 352 00:20:37,119 --> 00:20:41,760 Speaker 3: up and saying, don't force us to like acknowledge your 353 00:20:42,600 --> 00:20:47,000 Speaker 3: opinion or your lived experience anything like that. You know, 354 00:20:47,280 --> 00:20:51,040 Speaker 3: I feel like people and I will say again, it's 355 00:20:51,560 --> 00:20:54,680 Speaker 3: about racial relations in the United States. I think non 356 00:20:54,720 --> 00:20:56,840 Speaker 3: black people in the US, a lot of them they 357 00:20:56,880 --> 00:21:01,600 Speaker 3: see a very like pro black mormans or they seen 358 00:21:01,720 --> 00:21:04,479 Speaker 3: artists taking a pro black stance, and they regard it 359 00:21:04,480 --> 00:21:07,760 Speaker 3: as really threatening. And I think that that has been 360 00:21:07,840 --> 00:21:11,400 Speaker 3: what has underpinned, you know, like some of the criticism 361 00:21:11,440 --> 00:21:14,879 Speaker 3: of Beyonce. She is a very pro black artist. I 362 00:21:14,880 --> 00:21:18,879 Speaker 3: think it's a beautiful thing. And it's part it's like 363 00:21:19,040 --> 00:21:23,200 Speaker 3: so key to her expression as an artist. How could 364 00:21:23,240 --> 00:21:27,480 Speaker 3: she like extricate herself from that. That would be ridiculous. 365 00:21:27,760 --> 00:21:29,760 Speaker 3: But it's also what makes so much of her work 366 00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:37,199 Speaker 3: so like beautiful and intellectually stimulating, you know. But I 367 00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:39,760 Speaker 3: think that is what underpins the whole thing. 368 00:21:40,880 --> 00:21:43,320 Speaker 5: Everyone knows that the Grammys Album of the Year is 369 00:21:43,359 --> 00:21:45,600 Speaker 5: one of the major awards of the night, which is 370 00:21:45,600 --> 00:21:47,879 Speaker 5: why they always wait to the end to give it out. 371 00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:52,800 Speaker 5: Beyonce has more Grammys than anyone in history bar none. 372 00:21:53,240 --> 00:21:56,800 Speaker 5: Michael Jackson, Stevie Wonder, Elvis, Presley, you name them, like, 373 00:21:56,880 --> 00:21:58,960 Speaker 5: she has more Grammy Awards than all of them, but 374 00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:01,240 Speaker 5: she doesn't have Album of the Year. And when you 375 00:22:01,359 --> 00:22:03,720 Speaker 5: look back at her catalog and you think back on 376 00:22:04,119 --> 00:22:07,439 Speaker 5: some of those major albums, especially especially the ones that 377 00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:11,080 Speaker 5: have come out over the last decade plus the fours 378 00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:16,199 Speaker 5: or the self titled Lemonade, Lemonade didn't get one. If 379 00:22:16,240 --> 00:22:18,160 Speaker 5: we remember the Hysterician. 380 00:22:17,720 --> 00:22:20,040 Speaker 2: This woman told us about how she with the fight 381 00:22:20,359 --> 00:22:23,080 Speaker 2: she put her. They went on a whole public tour 382 00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:25,960 Speaker 2: explaining how they got back, and she still didn't win. 383 00:22:26,520 --> 00:22:28,880 Speaker 2: What even I do. 384 00:22:29,119 --> 00:22:31,360 Speaker 5: Adele one that year and Adele got up there was. 385 00:22:31,320 --> 00:22:34,280 Speaker 2: Like I don't deserve this. She was like, I don't 386 00:22:34,280 --> 00:22:34,920 Speaker 2: deserve that. 387 00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:39,240 Speaker 5: So when Jay got up and said that I believe 388 00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:41,040 Speaker 5: it was at the last Grammys. I believe it was 389 00:22:41,080 --> 00:22:44,879 Speaker 5: last year's Grammys, and he was talking specifically about Album 390 00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:47,240 Speaker 5: of the Year in terms of just like, yeah, it's funny, 391 00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:51,560 Speaker 5: she's achieved so much. She's in this rare class of 392 00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:55,680 Speaker 5: musicians to ever live. But you still hold that from 393 00:22:55,720 --> 00:22:58,080 Speaker 5: her because it is still it still feels like for 394 00:22:58,119 --> 00:22:59,639 Speaker 5: the most part, if you look at the history of 395 00:22:59,640 --> 00:23:03,520 Speaker 5: Album of the Year, it is predominantly won by white artists. 396 00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:07,679 Speaker 5: It is like one of those last beacons of whiteness 397 00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:12,280 Speaker 5: that exists in American music. And that's not to say that, 398 00:23:12,359 --> 00:23:14,800 Speaker 5: you know, black artists haven't won that, but when you 399 00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:17,800 Speaker 5: look at it, it's overwhelmingly white artists who have won 400 00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:21,240 Speaker 5: the Album of the Year. And she every year she's lost, 401 00:23:21,520 --> 00:23:25,600 Speaker 5: she's lost it to a white superstar, whether it be 402 00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:28,600 Speaker 5: Adele or whether it be Taylor Swift. And now we're 403 00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:33,639 Speaker 5: basically barreling towards the same type of matchup in February 404 00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:36,320 Speaker 5: when the Grammys come, because you obviously you know Taylor's 405 00:23:36,359 --> 00:23:38,800 Speaker 5: album is She's gonna get nominated for Album of the Year. 406 00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:41,840 Speaker 5: We know Beyonce and Cowboy Carter gonna gonna get nominated 407 00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:44,480 Speaker 5: for Album of the Year. So these same conversations that 408 00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:47,320 Speaker 5: we have been having with it, it feels like for 409 00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:51,040 Speaker 5: the last decade plus, ad nauseum, we're gonna have them again. 410 00:23:51,280 --> 00:23:55,000 Speaker 5: And so we're gonna see if this album Cowboy Carter, 411 00:23:55,080 --> 00:23:58,680 Speaker 5: which was shut out of the Country Music Awards, actually 412 00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:01,320 Speaker 5: wins a Grammy for albur Album of the Year. So 413 00:24:01,560 --> 00:24:04,520 Speaker 5: when we take that conversation and we look at somebody 414 00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:09,560 Speaker 5: like Angel Reese, and we see that regardless of the 415 00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:12,159 Speaker 5: talent that she is brought forth to the game, and 416 00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:14,240 Speaker 5: not just the talent that she's brought up to the game, 417 00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:18,359 Speaker 5: the charisma that you know, my little cousins, they say, Riz, 418 00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:21,960 Speaker 5: now I'm all out the loop. But she she's brought 419 00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:26,520 Speaker 5: so much you know, swagger and personality to the game 420 00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:28,320 Speaker 5: that scares people. 421 00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:33,679 Speaker 3: I think music journalists, I can say that we have 422 00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:37,320 Speaker 3: been at odds with the Recording Academy for many years, 423 00:24:37,560 --> 00:24:42,600 Speaker 3: and I think it's while I can't say what any 424 00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:46,520 Speaker 3: of the people behind the scenes intend, we have speculated 425 00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:49,680 Speaker 3: for many years that it's like, Okay, when is Beyonce 426 00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:51,359 Speaker 3: going to get her due? When is she going to 427 00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:53,919 Speaker 3: get that album of the Year prist? We think that 428 00:24:53,960 --> 00:24:59,440 Speaker 3: there have been so many albums that qualified. Yet every year, 429 00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:03,560 Speaker 3: at the end of the night, you know, she just happened, 430 00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:03,920 Speaker 3: and she. 431 00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:07,640 Speaker 2: Handles herself with so much grace. She still attends these 432 00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:10,520 Speaker 2: I would never I see why jay Z was so upset. 433 00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:14,840 Speaker 2: Now I get it. I'm like, why, okay, A get 434 00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:17,280 Speaker 2: it he said this young lady, And I just would 435 00:25:17,960 --> 00:25:21,959 Speaker 2: why she like this so candles herself because she doesn't 436 00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:25,879 Speaker 2: have she does not get the same grace that she 437 00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:30,720 Speaker 2: is given. And I liken that to what Angel is 438 00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:34,680 Speaker 2: dealing with. Angel is a different generation. Angel Reese has 439 00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:38,000 Speaker 2: been unapologetic about who she is, and she says, Okay, 440 00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:39,639 Speaker 2: if you want me to be a villain, I'll be 441 00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:42,600 Speaker 2: a villain. But she doesn't like that role. She doesn't 442 00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:45,560 Speaker 2: want to be assigned that role, and she has been 443 00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:50,760 Speaker 2: assigned that role. And I don't understand in these worlds. 444 00:25:51,040 --> 00:25:53,359 Speaker 2: The only thing that I can say the commonality is 445 00:25:53,359 --> 00:25:56,720 Speaker 2: is that they're black women. Two different women from two 446 00:25:56,760 --> 00:26:00,440 Speaker 2: different worlds, one an athlete, the other a music icon, 447 00:26:00,840 --> 00:26:05,280 Speaker 2: but their shared experience remains strikingly similar. Angel Rees and 448 00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:09,000 Speaker 2: Beyonce both represent more than their respective fields. They become 449 00:26:09,040 --> 00:26:12,960 Speaker 2: symbols of strength, identity, and culture. The same is true 450 00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:16,440 Speaker 2: for Kaitlyn Clark and Taylor Swift. Both are super novas, 451 00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:20,399 Speaker 2: adored in their own spheres as America's darlings. Their talent 452 00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:23,879 Speaker 2: and success have propelled them into the spotlight, but with 453 00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:27,879 Speaker 2: that fame comes a unique challenge. They often find themselves 454 00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:30,480 Speaker 2: pushing back against sections of their fan base or the 455 00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:34,080 Speaker 2: public who attempt to co opt their names for political 456 00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:35,040 Speaker 2: or personal gain. 457 00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:39,159 Speaker 3: I mean like maybe Kaitlyn's just a maybe she's a 458 00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:43,680 Speaker 3: Taylor Swift fan, maybe she also wants to vote for Kamala. 459 00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:44,920 Speaker 5: But the way that. 460 00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:50,840 Speaker 3: Conservatives have rallied around Kaitlyn Clark like so hard, you know, 461 00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:55,280 Speaker 3: because going back to like what it means for white womanhood, 462 00:26:56,040 --> 00:27:00,280 Speaker 3: It's just like they have such a parasocial relationship with her, 463 00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:02,200 Speaker 3: the same way that a lot of Taylor Swift fans 464 00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:06,040 Speaker 3: have a parisocial relationship with her, you know, where they 465 00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:11,320 Speaker 3: project all of their opinions and desires onto these people 466 00:27:11,359 --> 00:27:14,160 Speaker 3: they don't know. And so like Kaitlin Clark doing something 467 00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:18,679 Speaker 3: as I think innocuous is parting a photo on Instagram 468 00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:23,080 Speaker 3: where Taylor is holding a cat and making an endorsement 469 00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:27,639 Speaker 3: of Gamala as a childless cat lady herself. 470 00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:29,600 Speaker 5: Yeah. 471 00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:31,480 Speaker 3: I don't know what Kaitlin was thinking, but I don't 472 00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:34,800 Speaker 3: think she needed to like apologize or take it back. 473 00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:37,680 Speaker 3: It should be about the basketball. 474 00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:37,760 Speaker 1: You know. 475 00:27:38,119 --> 00:27:43,040 Speaker 3: That's what these women are like putting their all into, 476 00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:48,399 Speaker 3: is the game. And the fact that the WNBA is 477 00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:53,800 Speaker 3: like it's like peak popularity right now and is possible. 478 00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:57,080 Speaker 3: I mean, it's popularity is probably only going to grow 479 00:27:57,160 --> 00:28:00,560 Speaker 3: even more. I think that's amazing. I think it's awesome 480 00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:05,760 Speaker 3: that we're seeing like such a broad spectrum of like 481 00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:09,240 Speaker 3: like genders as well in the WNBA, just like a 482 00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:14,920 Speaker 3: bunch of really strong women who are just like I 483 00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:17,600 Speaker 3: don't know, showing us that there's so many different ways 484 00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:20,600 Speaker 3: to be a woman and like to be in your 485 00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:25,720 Speaker 3: power and be at the top of your game. And 486 00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:29,200 Speaker 3: what's so sad to me is the way that people 487 00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:33,880 Speaker 3: use Caitlin Clark as like a stand in for their 488 00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:38,400 Speaker 3: own political beliefs and insecurities, you know, like people who 489 00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:42,720 Speaker 3: who feel like the white population is threatened, you know, 490 00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:47,240 Speaker 3: these like extremists taking her up is like their trophy. 491 00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:49,840 Speaker 3: And I think it's very similar to the way that 492 00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:53,520 Speaker 3: like the alt right took up Taylor Swift as their trophy, 493 00:28:54,120 --> 00:28:57,960 Speaker 3: you know, many years ago, and you had these like 494 00:28:58,040 --> 00:29:01,720 Speaker 3: alt right websites, these whites premises websites, I should say, 495 00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:04,160 Speaker 3: you know, like Daily Stormer being like, oh, Taylor Swift 496 00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:09,400 Speaker 3: is our hero, you know, and like the fact that 497 00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:12,320 Speaker 3: she started to take she had to take a stand politically, 498 00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:14,160 Speaker 3: I think after that because she didn't want to be 499 00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:18,560 Speaker 3: affiliated with these people, and it took it took years, 500 00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:20,240 Speaker 3: you know, and I'm sure it took a lot of 501 00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:24,280 Speaker 3: likea like it took a lot of brain racking to 502 00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:26,280 Speaker 3: figure out, Okay, how do I how do I stand 503 00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:28,960 Speaker 3: up for myself and also stand up for like the 504 00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:33,000 Speaker 3: people who be alright, is attacking you know, many of 505 00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:36,400 Speaker 3: whom are her fans. I think that Taylor Swift had 506 00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:41,920 Speaker 3: to take a stance. And for Caitlin Clark, I think, 507 00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:45,640 Speaker 3: you know, I just I feel for her in that 508 00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:51,080 Speaker 3: she is so talented, just objectively like extremely talented. One 509 00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:55,200 Speaker 3: of the biggest of this generation and her legacy is 510 00:29:56,040 --> 00:30:01,360 Speaker 3: you know, being threatened by the people who are using 511 00:30:01,440 --> 00:30:05,960 Speaker 3: her success in bad faith against black women. I think 512 00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:07,920 Speaker 3: that's so sad and I don't want that to be 513 00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:11,600 Speaker 3: part of her legacy. I don't think she does. I 514 00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:16,240 Speaker 3: feel like Angel Reese is getting an extraordinary level of hate, 515 00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:23,640 Speaker 3: and it's really just because it's like how people are 516 00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:27,000 Speaker 3: using the game in general in bad faith. Whatever happens 517 00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:30,600 Speaker 3: in the game, they project their politics onto it, they 518 00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:36,080 Speaker 3: project their own personal prejudices onto it. Just let these 519 00:30:36,120 --> 00:30:40,200 Speaker 3: women play ball, you know, Like, at the end of 520 00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:42,480 Speaker 3: the day, why can't a woman play ball? 521 00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:45,800 Speaker 2: So now it's time for me to say the uncomfortable 522 00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:50,400 Speaker 2: part out loud. The perceived rivalry has helped music and sport. 523 00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:54,280 Speaker 2: We can clearly see the financial success, but their power, 524 00:30:55,160 --> 00:31:00,920 Speaker 2: their individual power, is undeniable. When we return, with power 525 00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:03,800 Speaker 2: comes great responsibility, and we can see it in real 526 00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:07,360 Speaker 2: time how these women are using their power for good. 527 00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:12,040 Speaker 2: We preview episode six. Everyone watches women's sports. 528 00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:21,920 Speaker 4: What we see constantly that is a thread throughout this 529 00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:24,000 Speaker 4: league is that these women are used to fighting for 530 00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:26,400 Speaker 4: every scrap of dignity that they have, for fighting for 531 00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:31,400 Speaker 4: the respect, for fighting for equity in every part of 532 00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:32,080 Speaker 4: what they do. 533 00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:33,600 Speaker 2: So fighting ain't nothing to them. 534 00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:36,280 Speaker 4: Like to be a women's basketball player, I would even 535 00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:37,360 Speaker 4: limit it to basketball, To. 536 00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:39,200 Speaker 2: Be a female athlete is resistance. 537 00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:43,200 Speaker 4: It's innate resistance in itself, and so they're used to 538 00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:44,520 Speaker 4: taking that stand. 539 00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:47,680 Speaker 2: So you can threaten them with taking. 540 00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:50,040 Speaker 4: Something away, but they're like, we already not getting paid 541 00:31:50,040 --> 00:31:52,280 Speaker 4: what we should, so that's not doing anything to them. 542 00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:55,440 Speaker 4: So I think it's just always been part of the 543 00:31:55,520 --> 00:31:59,760 Speaker 4: league's unofficial DNA that this league stands for resistance. 544 00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:03,240 Speaker 2: The saying that everyone watches women's sports is no longer 545 00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:06,880 Speaker 2: just a cliche. It has become a movement, a shift 546 00:32:06,880 --> 00:32:10,840 Speaker 2: in the cultural landscape. Women's sports has found its rightful 547 00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:14,239 Speaker 2: place in today's America. In this era, women are not 548 00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:18,960 Speaker 2: only playing the sport, they're commanding attention, rewriting narratives, and 549 00:32:19,160 --> 00:32:24,880 Speaker 2: standing firmly in their power. When you think about the WNBA, 550 00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:29,080 Speaker 2: how do they fit so perfectly at the intersection of 551 00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:32,440 Speaker 2: sports and cultures, sports and politics. 552 00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:36,680 Speaker 4: Because they have every intersection ramming against each other. So 553 00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:39,640 Speaker 4: you have a third of the league that is LGBTQ plus. 554 00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:43,960 Speaker 4: You have obviously a league of all women, so there's 555 00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:47,040 Speaker 4: a gender aspect. Then you have even more nuanced the 556 00:32:47,040 --> 00:32:48,960 Speaker 4: fact that seventy percent of the league is black women. 557 00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:52,160 Speaker 4: So you have like all these things sort of cramming 558 00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:55,640 Speaker 4: against each other in a way. That is, their identities 559 00:32:55,720 --> 00:32:58,640 Speaker 4: are very much a part of the story of the league. 560 00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:00,000 Speaker 2: You can't escape. 561 00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:04,240 Speaker 4: So yes, if there's an attack and a threat on 562 00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:07,480 Speaker 4: the LGBTQ plus community, it's an attack on the league. 563 00:33:07,520 --> 00:33:09,400 Speaker 4: If there's an attack on black women, it's an attack 564 00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:11,360 Speaker 4: on the league. If there's an attack on women, it's 565 00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:15,920 Speaker 4: an attack on the league. So that dynamic of resistance 566 00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:19,080 Speaker 4: is just there, whether people. 567 00:33:18,920 --> 00:33:20,120 Speaker 5: Want to accept it or not. 568 00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:24,280 Speaker 4: We're now in a generation where there are little girls 569 00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:25,600 Speaker 4: growing up to watch the WBA. 570 00:33:25,800 --> 00:33:25,960 Speaker 2: See. 571 00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:28,000 Speaker 4: That wasn't the case for Cheryl Swoops, that wasn't the 572 00:33:28,040 --> 00:33:29,800 Speaker 4: case for Cheryl Miller. There wasn't a case for so 573 00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:32,360 Speaker 4: many of the women who started this leader of this 574 00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:35,760 Speaker 4: league is like now in the WNBA, and the growth 575 00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:38,719 Speaker 4: of it and the fan base is multi generational, and 576 00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:41,920 Speaker 4: that's what you want to see. And I remember her 577 00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:45,200 Speaker 4: saying that like Maya Moore was her favorite player, and 578 00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:47,200 Speaker 4: it dawned on me, like, oh my god, We're finally 579 00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:49,880 Speaker 4: in the generation where the women playing actually grew up 580 00:33:49,960 --> 00:33:53,640 Speaker 4: watching the women they play with, like, which which is wild. 581 00:33:54,280 --> 00:33:57,760 Speaker 4: So you know, I think, you know, for her, I 582 00:33:57,800 --> 00:34:03,120 Speaker 4: hope that. I mean, she clearly understands what that means, 583 00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:07,080 Speaker 4: but I hope she understands the responsibility of that. And 584 00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:09,279 Speaker 4: I think so I think she does. Like I wasn't 585 00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:11,879 Speaker 4: trying to indicate that she did not like that. That's 586 00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:14,799 Speaker 4: a real thing, that's a real responsibility. And so what 587 00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:17,320 Speaker 4: it says to me that even with the upst of downs, 588 00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:20,320 Speaker 4: this league was always here to stay. 589 00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:25,680 Speaker 2: Everyone watches women's sports. I'll see y'all next week. Thanks 590 00:34:25,680 --> 00:34:31,279 Speaker 2: for listening to the making of a Rivalry The Making 591 00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:34,000 Speaker 2: of a Rivalry. Caitlin Clark Versus Angel Reese is a 592 00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:36,800 Speaker 2: Be Honest production in partnership with the Black Effect Podcast 593 00:34:36,880 --> 00:34:40,520 Speaker 2: Network in iHeart Women's Sports. Written and executive produced by 594 00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:45,080 Speaker 2: me Carrie Champion. Supervising producer is Arlene Santana, Produced by 595 00:34:45,160 --> 00:34:48,640 Speaker 2: Jock Vice Thomas, Sound designed and mastered by Dwayne Crawford. 596 00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:52,680 Speaker 2: Associate producer Olablucile Shabby. Naked Sports is a part of 597 00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:58,280 Speaker 2: the Black Effect Podcast Network in iHeart Media. Hey everybody, 598 00:34:58,280 --> 00:35:01,040 Speaker 2: if you're new to Naked Sports, well become to the podcast. 599 00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:03,520 Speaker 2: And for those who've been with us since season one, 600 00:35:03,719 --> 00:35:06,160 Speaker 2: thank you for right now. We're kicking off season four 601 00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:09,400 Speaker 2: with this six episode docu series that you're listening to 602 00:35:09,560 --> 00:35:12,880 Speaker 2: right now, and after that, Naked Sports will continue to 603 00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:16,160 Speaker 2: live at the intersection of sports, politics, and culture for 604 00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:19,160 Speaker 2: covering all things from the presidential race to the WNBA 605 00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:22,600 Speaker 2: Rookie of the Year contests. This season will be bold, 606 00:35:22,680 --> 00:35:26,280 Speaker 2: as you can already tell, no holds barred, but also 607 00:35:26,440 --> 00:35:30,440 Speaker 2: we'll bring you that same vulnerable storytelling technique that makes 608 00:35:30,520 --> 00:35:33,719 Speaker 2: our show so very unique. We appreciate you for being 609 00:35:33,760 --> 00:35:37,000 Speaker 2: here and thank you all for the support. We'll talk 610 00:35:37,040 --> 00:35:37,880 Speaker 2: to you next week.