1 00:00:12,080 --> 00:00:16,360 Speaker 1: Welcome to PM Mood then No Talking Points, no Bullshit 2 00:00:16,440 --> 00:00:20,200 Speaker 1: podcast that takes you behind the curtain, off the red carpet, 3 00:00:20,400 --> 00:00:23,079 Speaker 1: and to the front lines of progress with change makers 4 00:00:23,079 --> 00:00:26,520 Speaker 1: and innovators that are doing the work to shift our 5 00:00:26,600 --> 00:00:35,000 Speaker 1: culture and expand their social impact. I am so excited 6 00:00:35,520 --> 00:00:39,400 Speaker 1: to welcome to PM mood. Friend of mine. We will 7 00:00:39,440 --> 00:00:43,640 Speaker 1: also have to talk about our travels Jack Jenkins, who 8 00:00:43,800 --> 00:00:46,760 Speaker 1: is the author of the new book American Prophets, The 9 00:00:46,880 --> 00:00:50,440 Speaker 1: Religious roots of Progressive Politics and ongoing fight for the 10 00:00:50,520 --> 00:00:54,400 Speaker 1: Soul of the Country. It's so funny, Jack, because when 11 00:00:54,440 --> 00:00:57,640 Speaker 1: we talk, it's like we consistently are talking about the 12 00:00:57,640 --> 00:01:01,440 Speaker 1: soul of this country. I gotta tell you, I feel like, 13 00:01:01,480 --> 00:01:06,880 Speaker 1: on a regular basis it's dead. You are I would 14 00:01:06,920 --> 00:01:12,119 Speaker 1: assume maybe a lot more hopeful than I am about religion, 15 00:01:12,360 --> 00:01:16,760 Speaker 1: about the separation between church and state, but about the idea, 16 00:01:16,840 --> 00:01:22,920 Speaker 1: it's almost to me that progressive politics progressive religion almost 17 00:01:22,920 --> 00:01:26,760 Speaker 1: seems like an an oxymoron because of how we have 18 00:01:26,880 --> 00:01:31,200 Speaker 1: been inundated with the religious right. So talk to me 19 00:01:31,280 --> 00:01:35,400 Speaker 1: about the religious left and what led you to the 20 00:01:35,480 --> 00:01:39,200 Speaker 1: development of this book, American Prophets. I'll start with the 21 00:01:39,200 --> 00:01:41,280 Speaker 1: second question, that leads into the first, which is that 22 00:01:41,560 --> 00:01:45,920 Speaker 1: for me, when I first started doing reporting at Religion 23 00:01:45,959 --> 00:01:49,480 Speaker 1: News Service years ago as an intern, I was assigned 24 00:01:49,480 --> 00:01:51,560 Speaker 1: to try to find a faith story in the Occupy 25 00:01:51,600 --> 00:01:54,840 Speaker 1: Wall Street movement, which was happening at the time, and 26 00:01:55,240 --> 00:01:59,440 Speaker 1: I went I was near the Occupy Boston encampment in Boston, 27 00:01:59,600 --> 00:02:02,480 Speaker 1: and I I stumbled over there, and what I found 28 00:02:02,520 --> 00:02:04,240 Speaker 1: when I got there was there was this whole inner 29 00:02:04,240 --> 00:02:06,840 Speaker 1: faith tent where there was all of these activists, and 30 00:02:06,880 --> 00:02:08,800 Speaker 1: that a lot of the people who were helping organize 31 00:02:08,840 --> 00:02:12,400 Speaker 1: the encampment were seminarians and divinity school students, which I 32 00:02:12,400 --> 00:02:15,160 Speaker 1: thought was interesting. And then a lot of the people 33 00:02:15,160 --> 00:02:17,440 Speaker 1: that they were bringing in to speak to kind of 34 00:02:17,440 --> 00:02:20,519 Speaker 1: like critique capitalism and you know, try to critique the 35 00:02:21,200 --> 00:02:25,280 Speaker 1: verious different you know in results of capitalism with labor rights, etc. 36 00:02:25,680 --> 00:02:27,480 Speaker 1: They were bringing in these kind of faith leaders or 37 00:02:27,520 --> 00:02:31,480 Speaker 1: people who were attached to religious institutions, and so I 38 00:02:31,600 --> 00:02:33,080 Speaker 1: was like, you know, I had run into this in 39 00:02:33,080 --> 00:02:35,200 Speaker 1: a vague since before. But what struck me was that 40 00:02:35,280 --> 00:02:38,920 Speaker 1: I was the only reporter following that with a you know, 41 00:02:39,080 --> 00:02:41,880 Speaker 1: religious lens. Now that's not because I was special, because 42 00:02:41,880 --> 00:02:43,760 Speaker 1: I was assigned that by my editor. But it was 43 00:02:43,800 --> 00:02:46,280 Speaker 1: one of those things where I was like, that's interesting 44 00:02:46,320 --> 00:02:49,120 Speaker 1: that there's this dearth of people kind of looking into 45 00:02:49,160 --> 00:02:51,600 Speaker 1: this group. And so as I continued to stay in 46 00:02:51,680 --> 00:02:54,480 Speaker 1: journalism and I ended up in I think progress years later. 47 00:02:54,680 --> 00:02:57,880 Speaker 1: You know, basically my job there was equally split my 48 00:02:57,960 --> 00:03:01,359 Speaker 1: time between covering the religious right and then also kind 49 00:03:01,360 --> 00:03:04,840 Speaker 1: of looking at these you know, more progressive faith communities 50 00:03:04,840 --> 00:03:08,040 Speaker 1: that were advocating for you know, better housing, for communities, 51 00:03:08,080 --> 00:03:10,000 Speaker 1: for a better rent control, you know, to try to 52 00:03:10,000 --> 00:03:13,880 Speaker 1: push back against predatory lending practices, to you know, talk 53 00:03:13,919 --> 00:03:17,120 Speaker 1: about you know, immigrant rights and indigenous rights and fighting 54 00:03:17,160 --> 00:03:19,040 Speaker 1: against climate change, and they're all doing it and they 55 00:03:19,040 --> 00:03:22,359 Speaker 1: would have gatherings with hundreds of people, and then I 56 00:03:22,400 --> 00:03:27,320 Speaker 1: would be the only reporter there. So it's just why, 57 00:03:27,400 --> 00:03:31,160 Speaker 1: why would you think? Why why was that? Why Why 58 00:03:31,200 --> 00:03:34,440 Speaker 1: were you the only one that was interested in covering 59 00:03:35,280 --> 00:03:38,080 Speaker 1: and covering this. So I think there's that goes back 60 00:03:38,120 --> 00:03:40,640 Speaker 1: to your to your first question, which is what happened? 61 00:03:40,760 --> 00:03:43,560 Speaker 1: Why we did this dynamic come to be? And so 62 00:03:43,800 --> 00:03:46,280 Speaker 1: you know, the religious left has always kind of been 63 00:03:46,280 --> 00:03:49,360 Speaker 1: around in American history and various forms or that that 64 00:03:49,400 --> 00:03:51,800 Speaker 1: was the abolitionist movement or the civil rights movement as 65 00:03:51,800 --> 00:03:54,120 Speaker 1: one people often point too, and also around the turn 66 00:03:54,160 --> 00:03:57,240 Speaker 1: of the twentieth century, and the Social Gospel movement, which 67 00:03:57,280 --> 00:04:00,560 Speaker 1: still influences a lot of Christian traditions today, was actually, 68 00:04:00,600 --> 00:04:03,160 Speaker 1: you know, one of the pre eminent religious movements in 69 00:04:03,200 --> 00:04:06,400 Speaker 1: the country and actually had disproportionate influence over American politics. 70 00:04:06,400 --> 00:04:08,720 Speaker 1: And they kind of won. It was the New Deal 71 00:04:09,040 --> 00:04:11,680 Speaker 1: was directly influenced by the Social Gospel movement that was 72 00:04:11,760 --> 00:04:15,320 Speaker 1: critiquing capitalism and the aftermath of the Industrial Revolution. But 73 00:04:15,440 --> 00:04:20,000 Speaker 1: after they won, the fundamentalists, Christian fundamentalists of that time 74 00:04:20,120 --> 00:04:23,279 Speaker 1: kind of, you know, also lost in public. And this 75 00:04:23,360 --> 00:04:25,400 Speaker 1: is a little bit of a simplistic retelling, but they 76 00:04:25,480 --> 00:04:27,599 Speaker 1: kind of pulled back from politics a little bit and 77 00:04:27,640 --> 00:04:30,880 Speaker 1: started creating their own institutions. They created their own schools, 78 00:04:30,960 --> 00:04:34,480 Speaker 1: created their own magazines, their own publishing houses, their own 79 00:04:34,520 --> 00:04:38,040 Speaker 1: radio networks, and their own television network. So by the 80 00:04:38,040 --> 00:04:41,400 Speaker 1: time you got to the seventies, eighties, and particularly the nineties, 81 00:04:41,720 --> 00:04:44,160 Speaker 1: when they decided to re enter politics in a really 82 00:04:44,240 --> 00:04:47,599 Speaker 1: big way, they were bringing with them this huge media 83 00:04:47,640 --> 00:04:50,760 Speaker 1: apparatus that kind of helped funnel and fuel a lot 84 00:04:50,760 --> 00:04:53,480 Speaker 1: of their activism, and they know, kind of really dug 85 00:04:53,520 --> 00:04:56,280 Speaker 1: in around two issues in particular, opposition and same sex 86 00:04:56,360 --> 00:05:00,400 Speaker 1: marriage or just all LGBTQ relationships and identities and or shit, 87 00:05:00,640 --> 00:05:03,919 Speaker 1: and those issues kind of became the lynchpin throughout the 88 00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:06,599 Speaker 1: nineties and into the two thousands, and it's how George W. 89 00:05:06,760 --> 00:05:10,159 Speaker 1: Bush was able to secure such an arousing amount of 90 00:05:10,200 --> 00:05:13,480 Speaker 1: support among Wine Evangelical Protestants in particular in two thousand 91 00:05:13,640 --> 00:05:16,599 Speaker 1: and two thousand and four. What had happened in the 92 00:05:16,680 --> 00:05:21,520 Speaker 1: meantime is that while religious activists had never stopped doing 93 00:05:21,560 --> 00:05:23,560 Speaker 1: what they do, you know, in terms of progressive faith 94 00:05:23,560 --> 00:05:26,960 Speaker 1: activists fighting for racial justice, for instance, or for immigrant rights, 95 00:05:27,000 --> 00:05:30,080 Speaker 1: those movements actually continued to exist. A lot of those 96 00:05:30,279 --> 00:05:34,960 Speaker 1: large institutional organizations that had been mostly attied to white, 97 00:05:35,000 --> 00:05:38,480 Speaker 1: even white mainline Protestantism, because that was what was really, 98 00:05:38,520 --> 00:05:40,599 Speaker 1: you know, understood to be the big political crew in 99 00:05:40,640 --> 00:05:43,240 Speaker 1: the early twentieth century, they had kind of atrophied and died. 100 00:05:43,600 --> 00:05:46,200 Speaker 1: Whereas and so secular you know, we saw this group 101 00:05:46,200 --> 00:05:49,400 Speaker 1: of this growth of the religiously unaffiliated people who don't 102 00:05:49,440 --> 00:05:53,120 Speaker 1: claim one religious group or another, you who may worship 103 00:05:53,200 --> 00:05:55,360 Speaker 1: or go to church on regular basis, but don't claim 104 00:05:55,360 --> 00:05:58,400 Speaker 1: a faith tradition or they're atheists or agnostic. That group 105 00:05:58,440 --> 00:06:01,719 Speaker 1: became the largest single sub set of the Democratic Party. 106 00:06:01,920 --> 00:06:03,839 Speaker 1: Fast forward to two thousand and four or two thousand 107 00:06:03,880 --> 00:06:07,400 Speaker 1: and eight, and while the Democratic Party remained mostly religious 108 00:06:07,400 --> 00:06:09,400 Speaker 1: in terms of people were saying they believe in God 109 00:06:09,480 --> 00:06:12,280 Speaker 1: or affiliate with the faith tradition, the power of these 110 00:06:12,320 --> 00:06:15,880 Speaker 1: activists had changed dramatically. They had they didn't have this 111 00:06:15,960 --> 00:06:18,320 Speaker 1: sort of access to power that they once did. And 112 00:06:18,360 --> 00:06:21,240 Speaker 1: the left in general, nothing on the left looks like 113 00:06:21,440 --> 00:06:24,000 Speaker 1: the religious right, and because it's now more of a 114 00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:27,719 Speaker 1: coalition of coalitions as opposed to like one white group 115 00:06:27,760 --> 00:06:30,160 Speaker 1: of Christians yelling at another white group of Christians. And 116 00:06:30,200 --> 00:06:32,440 Speaker 1: so we have this different system for what the left 117 00:06:32,480 --> 00:06:35,400 Speaker 1: looks like today, and that's where the modern religious left 118 00:06:35,560 --> 00:06:37,279 Speaker 1: kind of emerges. And that's kind of what I cover 119 00:06:37,360 --> 00:06:41,039 Speaker 1: in my book. You know, it's so interesting because one 120 00:06:41,040 --> 00:06:44,719 Speaker 1: of the chapters that I really do want to dig into, 121 00:06:44,920 --> 00:06:49,279 Speaker 1: just given the current climate that we're in, is chapter three, 122 00:06:49,279 --> 00:06:54,440 Speaker 1: when God chooses a Leader. And I think that what 123 00:06:54,640 --> 00:06:59,760 Speaker 1: has become so troubling about the religious right, aside from 124 00:07:00,160 --> 00:07:05,479 Speaker 1: them being zealous. In my opinion is the weaponizing of 125 00:07:05,560 --> 00:07:10,080 Speaker 1: religion and the idea that they have the power white 126 00:07:10,080 --> 00:07:15,880 Speaker 1: evangelical Christians to anoint right a leader. And what we 127 00:07:15,960 --> 00:07:18,960 Speaker 1: have heard over the past three and a half years 128 00:07:19,040 --> 00:07:23,320 Speaker 1: under Donald Trump in so many from so many different people, 129 00:07:23,360 --> 00:07:26,880 Speaker 1: from religious leaders, but then from people withinside of his 130 00:07:27,000 --> 00:07:29,920 Speaker 1: cabinet is referred to Donald Trump as the chosen one, 131 00:07:30,840 --> 00:07:33,240 Speaker 1: referring to him as the one, as the leader that 132 00:07:33,320 --> 00:07:37,040 Speaker 1: God chose for this movement. You open up the chapter 133 00:07:37,160 --> 00:07:40,720 Speaker 1: with talking about Jerry Folwell Junior and Liberty University and 134 00:07:40,760 --> 00:07:44,520 Speaker 1: the speech that Trump gave there and he would later 135 00:07:44,560 --> 00:07:47,440 Speaker 1: come out, you know, obviously to endorse him, and he 136 00:07:47,520 --> 00:07:51,000 Speaker 1: has come out in fervor for Donald Trump. Talk to 137 00:07:51,040 --> 00:07:58,680 Speaker 1: me about the idea of like this deity's deity, this 138 00:07:58,800 --> 00:08:04,600 Speaker 1: idea of like deitizing political leaders and in crowning them 139 00:08:04,640 --> 00:08:07,280 Speaker 1: in some way as if they are above reproach, because 140 00:08:07,320 --> 00:08:10,440 Speaker 1: that's what it seems to me. It was like at first, 141 00:08:10,680 --> 00:08:13,800 Speaker 1: we have these issues, we are singled issue. We don't 142 00:08:13,840 --> 00:08:17,560 Speaker 1: want abortion, so anyone that is against abortion we're going 143 00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:21,200 Speaker 1: to be behind. There's something different about what is being 144 00:08:21,280 --> 00:08:25,160 Speaker 1: done at this particular time with Donald Trump as opposed 145 00:08:25,160 --> 00:08:28,280 Speaker 1: to what happened with the Bushes before him and the 146 00:08:28,360 --> 00:08:31,960 Speaker 1: religious right right, and I think there's a lot of 147 00:08:32,000 --> 00:08:34,800 Speaker 1: different factors going in there, but I think the core 148 00:08:34,880 --> 00:08:36,679 Speaker 1: of what I hear you talking about is this one 149 00:08:36,679 --> 00:08:39,160 Speaker 1: that's actually kind of flummoxed a lot of US religion 150 00:08:39,200 --> 00:08:41,560 Speaker 1: reporters as well, particularly early on in the Trump era, 151 00:08:41,920 --> 00:08:43,880 Speaker 1: is that we're used to one version of what the 152 00:08:43,880 --> 00:08:47,800 Speaker 1: religious right looks like. There's these key actors and theological thinkers, 153 00:08:48,040 --> 00:08:50,920 Speaker 1: and some of them really don't like Trump, and so 154 00:08:50,960 --> 00:08:52,839 Speaker 1: when they came out really hard against him during the 155 00:08:52,880 --> 00:08:56,199 Speaker 1: twenty sixteen campaign, we expected there to be some movement 156 00:08:56,320 --> 00:08:58,920 Speaker 1: among white evangelicals to say, hey, maybe we'll let you 157 00:08:59,000 --> 00:09:01,280 Speaker 1: go back a third party candator kind of looked like 158 00:09:01,280 --> 00:09:03,520 Speaker 1: the way Mormons did. Members of the Church of Jesus 159 00:09:03,559 --> 00:09:06,280 Speaker 1: Christ of Latter day Saints actually did pull away from 160 00:09:06,320 --> 00:09:09,280 Speaker 1: Trump at some level, more so than Why Evangelical Protestants 161 00:09:09,320 --> 00:09:12,880 Speaker 1: by far, but instead he's still some Trump still was 162 00:09:12,920 --> 00:09:15,040 Speaker 1: able to lock in eighty to eighty one percent of 163 00:09:15,040 --> 00:09:18,000 Speaker 1: Why Evangelical Protestants. And as we've gone back and looked 164 00:09:18,040 --> 00:09:21,840 Speaker 1: through that campaign and also looked at his presidency since then, 165 00:09:22,240 --> 00:09:25,920 Speaker 1: what you see is a lot of appeal to Christian nationalism, 166 00:09:25,920 --> 00:09:30,199 Speaker 1: and that is arguably less a theology and more an identity. 167 00:09:30,480 --> 00:09:33,280 Speaker 1: It's more of a marriage of this idea of what 168 00:09:33,280 --> 00:09:35,800 Speaker 1: it means to be an American and an idea of 169 00:09:35,800 --> 00:09:37,880 Speaker 1: what it means to be a Christian. And while there 170 00:09:37,920 --> 00:09:40,839 Speaker 1: are some people who make theological arguments about that or 171 00:09:40,920 --> 00:09:43,480 Speaker 1: like kind of they kind of retell American history in 172 00:09:43,480 --> 00:09:46,959 Speaker 1: a very specific subjective way. One of those figures is 173 00:09:47,080 --> 00:09:49,880 Speaker 1: Roy Moore, for instance, the failed Alabama sent a candidate, 174 00:09:50,120 --> 00:09:52,480 Speaker 1: former judge down there in Alabama. He's kind of one 175 00:09:52,520 --> 00:09:54,920 Speaker 1: of these people who might make a theological or historical 176 00:09:55,000 --> 00:09:58,120 Speaker 1: argument for a lot of Americans, and in white Evangelical 177 00:09:58,400 --> 00:10:02,160 Speaker 1: Protestants in particular, this idea of Christian nationalism. When Donald 178 00:10:02,160 --> 00:10:05,160 Speaker 1: Trump hugs an American flag or then says, you know, 179 00:10:05,240 --> 00:10:08,480 Speaker 1: we don't worship government, we worship God, that's a not 180 00:10:08,600 --> 00:10:11,400 Speaker 1: so subtle dog whistle to these communities that say, hey, 181 00:10:11,800 --> 00:10:13,680 Speaker 1: that's what I am. Now. Some of these people have 182 00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:15,800 Speaker 1: been to church and years, some of these people are 183 00:10:16,160 --> 00:10:19,680 Speaker 1: are active worshippers, and but for them there's that shared 184 00:10:19,880 --> 00:10:22,840 Speaker 1: sort of you know, longing for this very particular idea 185 00:10:22,840 --> 00:10:24,840 Speaker 1: of what it means to be a Christian that often, 186 00:10:25,080 --> 00:10:27,160 Speaker 1: you know, when they did a bunch of polls around 187 00:10:27,640 --> 00:10:30,640 Speaker 1: the twenty sixteen election and after that about people who 188 00:10:30,679 --> 00:10:33,760 Speaker 1: would might identify with Christian nationalism, and what you found 189 00:10:34,200 --> 00:10:37,000 Speaker 1: was that these people, disproportionately, compared to the rest of 190 00:10:37,000 --> 00:10:40,560 Speaker 1: the population, say, had negative feelings towards immigrants, had negative 191 00:10:40,600 --> 00:10:44,080 Speaker 1: feelings towards refugees in particular, or to Muslim Americans. They're 192 00:10:44,080 --> 00:10:46,480 Speaker 1: disproportionately more likely to say the police are doing the 193 00:10:46,559 --> 00:10:49,319 Speaker 1: right thing went in their interactions with people of color 194 00:10:49,400 --> 00:10:52,040 Speaker 1: than if they're doing the wrong thing. All things, when 195 00:10:52,080 --> 00:10:53,640 Speaker 1: you start to think about it, are kind of these 196 00:10:53,679 --> 00:10:57,000 Speaker 1: pillars of Trumpism that he used in his campaign in 197 00:10:57,080 --> 00:11:00,880 Speaker 1: twenty sixteen. And so it was actually an in phenomenon 198 00:11:00,960 --> 00:11:04,440 Speaker 1: that's happened that happened around the Trump rise where some 199 00:11:04,480 --> 00:11:07,280 Speaker 1: of the traditional actors the religious right actually kind of 200 00:11:07,280 --> 00:11:11,040 Speaker 1: got unseated and left adrift because they realized they the 201 00:11:11,520 --> 00:11:13,800 Speaker 1: flock that they thought they had who they could you know, 202 00:11:13,840 --> 00:11:17,520 Speaker 1: push in a theological direction, were more driving force behind 203 00:11:17,520 --> 00:11:21,359 Speaker 1: them was more this Christian nationalism rhetoric than the theology 204 00:11:21,400 --> 00:11:24,800 Speaker 1: that they were preaching at say, Wheaton College, and so 205 00:11:25,280 --> 00:11:27,360 Speaker 1: Trump's been a really interesting figure that way. And it 206 00:11:27,360 --> 00:11:30,040 Speaker 1: comes back to exactly what you were saying. Trump's a 207 00:11:30,040 --> 00:11:32,160 Speaker 1: person who can go down to a disaster site in 208 00:11:32,200 --> 00:11:34,200 Speaker 1: the South and meet a bunch of white Christians and 209 00:11:34,240 --> 00:11:37,560 Speaker 1: they hand him bibles for him to sign, to sign, 210 00:11:37,960 --> 00:11:41,960 Speaker 1: to sign. Yeah, I don't understand that. And you have 211 00:11:42,280 --> 00:11:45,360 Speaker 1: You've had you figures like Paula White And who is 212 00:11:45,400 --> 00:11:48,600 Speaker 1: this preacher out of Florida who's some many label as 213 00:11:48,600 --> 00:11:51,600 Speaker 1: a prosperity gospel preacher? Which is this this form of 214 00:11:51,720 --> 00:11:54,640 Speaker 1: Christianity that often says if you believe hard enough, good 215 00:11:54,640 --> 00:11:56,840 Speaker 1: things will come to you, and that often those that 216 00:11:56,880 --> 00:12:00,800 Speaker 1: are those that are wealthy, Right, those are wealthy are 217 00:12:00,840 --> 00:12:04,560 Speaker 1: then perceived to be better if you are. That's how 218 00:12:04,600 --> 00:12:07,680 Speaker 1: I have always broken it down in very basic terms, 219 00:12:07,960 --> 00:12:10,480 Speaker 1: is that if you are wealthy, then that means that 220 00:12:10,559 --> 00:12:12,920 Speaker 1: you are good. That means that you were closest to God. 221 00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:17,240 Speaker 1: And which kind of makes sense in terms of the 222 00:12:17,320 --> 00:12:20,439 Speaker 1: way that poor people are treated in this country right 223 00:12:21,000 --> 00:12:23,760 Speaker 1: by our government. If you are if you are poor, 224 00:12:24,400 --> 00:12:27,480 Speaker 1: being poor is a product, is a failure, is a 225 00:12:27,520 --> 00:12:31,280 Speaker 1: personal failure, right, It is about your laziness. If you 226 00:12:31,360 --> 00:12:35,119 Speaker 1: work hard and you are wealthy, right, then you are rewarded. 227 00:12:35,200 --> 00:12:38,960 Speaker 1: So this intermingling of this idea of prosperity as it 228 00:12:38,960 --> 00:12:41,920 Speaker 1: perceives as it pertains to faith, and then that as 229 00:12:41,960 --> 00:12:45,000 Speaker 1: it pertains to the policies that we put together for 230 00:12:45,080 --> 00:12:48,760 Speaker 1: poor people seem to me to be so disconnected from 231 00:12:48,760 --> 00:12:52,360 Speaker 1: the foundation of Christian faith, right, which is this idea 232 00:12:52,600 --> 00:12:58,000 Speaker 1: of serving most in need. How do we straddle that 233 00:12:58,160 --> 00:13:05,000 Speaker 1: very incredible and working it in America that about poverty 234 00:13:05,480 --> 00:13:10,880 Speaker 1: and about in general. Yeah, I think, you know, to 235 00:13:11,040 --> 00:13:12,720 Speaker 1: tap into a little bit of what you were saying, 236 00:13:12,760 --> 00:13:15,480 Speaker 1: you know, that campaign that there was this conversation that 237 00:13:15,559 --> 00:13:18,480 Speaker 1: developed basically from nineteen seventies on where there are you know, 238 00:13:18,520 --> 00:13:21,600 Speaker 1: there were people in religious contexts referring to the deserving 239 00:13:21,600 --> 00:13:24,800 Speaker 1: and basically undeserving poor. If you're poor, there's that's a 240 00:13:24,840 --> 00:13:28,720 Speaker 1: consequence of capitalism. But the great the people who achieve 241 00:13:28,960 --> 00:13:32,680 Speaker 1: in a capitalist mindset are blessed quite literally the idea 242 00:13:32,720 --> 00:13:35,000 Speaker 1: that that is that is an evidence of their faith. 243 00:13:35,320 --> 00:13:37,240 Speaker 1: And in what it has done is, you know, it 244 00:13:37,320 --> 00:13:41,720 Speaker 1: shores up a very specific capitalistic system. And and actually 245 00:13:41,760 --> 00:13:44,240 Speaker 1: the one thing when I talked about that gap between 246 00:13:44,520 --> 00:13:48,200 Speaker 1: when the fundamentalist Christians kind of lost in the early 247 00:13:48,679 --> 00:13:51,400 Speaker 1: twentieth century, and that came back in the seventies and eighties. 248 00:13:51,520 --> 00:13:53,360 Speaker 1: There was a thing that happened in between that in 249 00:13:53,400 --> 00:13:55,840 Speaker 1: the thirties that I think is really important, which was 250 00:13:55,920 --> 00:14:00,840 Speaker 1: that there was this effort by businesses to back against 251 00:14:00,920 --> 00:14:03,480 Speaker 1: the social Gospel and the results of the New Deal, 252 00:14:03,800 --> 00:14:07,720 Speaker 1: and so they started developing these preaching groups where they 253 00:14:07,760 --> 00:14:12,079 Speaker 1: would rap them preach these sermons that melded capitalism and 254 00:14:12,920 --> 00:14:14,880 Speaker 1: of Christian faith and said that both of them can 255 00:14:14,920 --> 00:14:18,880 Speaker 1: be good. And then they attached a patriotic or nationalist 256 00:14:18,920 --> 00:14:23,280 Speaker 1: identity to that. And that movement grew to thousands and 257 00:14:23,320 --> 00:14:26,000 Speaker 1: thousands of pastors throughout the country, and one of the 258 00:14:26,040 --> 00:14:28,280 Speaker 1: earl in its it was the breeding ground for some 259 00:14:28,320 --> 00:14:31,960 Speaker 1: of the earliest prosperity Gospel preachers in the United States, 260 00:14:32,080 --> 00:14:35,720 Speaker 1: including a guy named Norman Vincent Peale, who was who 261 00:14:35,760 --> 00:14:38,520 Speaker 1: wrote this. He was this successful pastor who many people 262 00:14:38,600 --> 00:14:41,200 Speaker 1: call as one of the first prototypical examples of a 263 00:14:41,280 --> 00:14:44,880 Speaker 1: prosperity Gospel preacher. And he was at one point Donald 264 00:14:44,880 --> 00:14:47,600 Speaker 1: Trump's pastor, and he is one of the only faith 265 00:14:47,680 --> 00:14:50,840 Speaker 1: leaders that Donald Trump has mentioned by name. From his 266 00:14:50,960 --> 00:14:54,360 Speaker 1: past and to be able to reflect on his sermons. Now, 267 00:14:54,480 --> 00:14:57,120 Speaker 1: Norman Vincent Peale might even be weak compared to some 268 00:14:57,160 --> 00:14:59,720 Speaker 1: of the modern prosperity Gospel preachers. But that's one of 269 00:14:59,720 --> 00:15:03,320 Speaker 1: the that some historians that help explain how when Trump 270 00:15:03,360 --> 00:15:06,720 Speaker 1: came into office, these prosperity Gospel pastors and this whole 271 00:15:06,920 --> 00:15:11,080 Speaker 1: strain of Christianity that had not been really politicized, Trump 272 00:15:11,080 --> 00:15:13,760 Speaker 1: brought with them because it you know, some one argument 273 00:15:13,960 --> 00:15:17,120 Speaker 1: is that it reflected his own mindset, his own worldview, 274 00:15:17,360 --> 00:15:20,360 Speaker 1: and it also may have reflected many conservative policies that 275 00:15:20,400 --> 00:15:24,480 Speaker 1: again defend capitalism not only as a virtuous system, but 276 00:15:24,520 --> 00:15:26,720 Speaker 1: are you, but they are you as a Christian system. 277 00:15:26,880 --> 00:15:29,120 Speaker 1: And as they've continued to shore that up, the religious 278 00:15:29,200 --> 00:15:32,200 Speaker 1: right aiding them along and along. You know, this is 279 00:15:32,200 --> 00:15:34,400 Speaker 1: why many of the activists you have seen among the 280 00:15:34,440 --> 00:15:37,520 Speaker 1: religious left, whether it's William Barber who's helping lead the 281 00:15:37,520 --> 00:15:41,680 Speaker 1: Poor People's Campaign with Reverent Theo Harris, or Alexandro Accassi 282 00:15:41,760 --> 00:15:44,800 Speaker 1: or Portz who is a Democratic Socialist and decided to 283 00:15:44,880 --> 00:15:48,160 Speaker 1: run for office after attending the Standing Rock demonstrations and 284 00:15:48,200 --> 00:15:51,880 Speaker 1: having a spiritual experience and has since been talking about 285 00:15:51,880 --> 00:15:54,720 Speaker 1: on the stump, you know, fusing faith that appeals to 286 00:15:54,760 --> 00:15:57,080 Speaker 1: the least of these, to the poor, to the destitute, 287 00:15:57,240 --> 00:16:00,240 Speaker 1: you basically have Now we re entered a conversation that 288 00:16:00,280 --> 00:16:03,360 Speaker 1: happened in the beginning of the last century, where the 289 00:16:03,440 --> 00:16:06,400 Speaker 1: poor are saying, maybe these policies aren't working out for me, 290 00:16:06,480 --> 00:16:09,600 Speaker 1: these religious poor, and some folks who have didn't defending 291 00:16:09,720 --> 00:16:14,160 Speaker 1: capitalism under a Christian context are just literally lifting up 292 00:16:14,160 --> 00:16:17,000 Speaker 1: Trump as the chosen one. And these are two very 293 00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:21,800 Speaker 1: different conversations. They're so different, and they're so contradictory to 294 00:16:21,840 --> 00:16:24,480 Speaker 1: one another. And I really don't and I think to me, 295 00:16:24,840 --> 00:16:28,120 Speaker 1: you know, personally, religion has always been something that I 296 00:16:28,200 --> 00:16:32,160 Speaker 1: have kept at Bay. I guess I would consider myself agnostic. 297 00:16:32,400 --> 00:16:35,600 Speaker 1: I'm a verially spiritual person and believe in the connectivity 298 00:16:35,640 --> 00:16:38,760 Speaker 1: of the universe and all people and living things. But 299 00:16:39,400 --> 00:16:44,720 Speaker 1: prescribing to a certain religious ideology has always been something 300 00:16:44,760 --> 00:16:48,400 Speaker 1: that I've kept at Bay because of the way that 301 00:16:48,440 --> 00:16:53,080 Speaker 1: it's constantly weaponized. It's weaponized against the poor, it's weaponized 302 00:16:53,120 --> 00:16:55,880 Speaker 1: against black people. Martin Luther King once said, the most 303 00:16:55,880 --> 00:17:01,280 Speaker 1: segregated time right in America is high noon on Sunday, right, right, 304 00:17:01,640 --> 00:17:05,560 Speaker 1: And so you know, as we are kind of moving 305 00:17:05,680 --> 00:17:11,040 Speaker 1: through what I have been talking about multiple pandemics in 306 00:17:11,080 --> 00:17:14,680 Speaker 1: this country right and witnessing them. We are living through 307 00:17:14,840 --> 00:17:18,560 Speaker 1: the coronavirus, which is an actual global health crisis, but 308 00:17:18,760 --> 00:17:23,120 Speaker 1: has revealed to us the inner workings of the racial 309 00:17:23,400 --> 00:17:26,280 Speaker 1: and racist pandemic that we have been living in in 310 00:17:26,320 --> 00:17:29,520 Speaker 1: this country. And then the capitalist structure that feeds into 311 00:17:29,560 --> 00:17:32,840 Speaker 1: all of that, keeping some at the bottom, namely black 312 00:17:32,880 --> 00:17:36,240 Speaker 1: and brown people, and then the wealthy people at the top. 313 00:17:36,480 --> 00:17:41,840 Speaker 1: But when you have this justification right of prosperity and 314 00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:48,199 Speaker 1: wealth being associated with good, right and godly, how do 315 00:17:48,200 --> 00:17:51,600 Speaker 1: you even come together? How do you bring these two 316 00:17:52,680 --> 00:17:58,000 Speaker 1: very different faiths together in order to even begin to 317 00:17:58,040 --> 00:18:01,320 Speaker 1: save the soul of this country? Like? What is that? Honestly, 318 00:18:01,359 --> 00:18:04,800 Speaker 1: what does that even look like? Right? Because we've been 319 00:18:04,840 --> 00:18:07,800 Speaker 1: battling for the soul of this nation since oh, I 320 00:18:07,800 --> 00:18:10,760 Speaker 1: don't know, the Pilgrims stole it from the Native Americans. 321 00:18:11,040 --> 00:18:14,520 Speaker 1: So it's like in every generation, at every time, we 322 00:18:14,560 --> 00:18:18,160 Speaker 1: are at war right with this idea of what America 323 00:18:18,240 --> 00:18:20,639 Speaker 1: should be, could be, what we want it to be, 324 00:18:21,000 --> 00:18:25,040 Speaker 1: and what it actually is. Right, I think what's a 325 00:18:25,080 --> 00:18:27,840 Speaker 1: really fascinating tention that you're pointing out is that, you know, 326 00:18:28,040 --> 00:18:30,840 Speaker 1: there's this concept of Christianity, right, and people always like 327 00:18:30,880 --> 00:18:33,800 Speaker 1: to remember the abolitionist movement, how many faith leaders are 328 00:18:33,840 --> 00:18:35,800 Speaker 1: were a part of that, and they just leave out 329 00:18:35,840 --> 00:18:37,679 Speaker 1: the part where there was a bunch of pastors who 330 00:18:37,720 --> 00:18:40,040 Speaker 1: propped up the institution of slavery to begin with, right, 331 00:18:40,080 --> 00:18:42,400 Speaker 1: you were saying that this was God's will, and then 332 00:18:42,440 --> 00:18:44,479 Speaker 1: that when we talked about the labor movement, it were similar. 333 00:18:44,480 --> 00:18:46,840 Speaker 1: There were these social gospel types they were arguing for, 334 00:18:46,960 --> 00:18:48,480 Speaker 1: you know, kind of liberating the worker. And then there 335 00:18:48,480 --> 00:18:49,800 Speaker 1: are a lot of people that's saying that, you know, 336 00:18:49,840 --> 00:18:52,680 Speaker 1: maybe the workers deserved it and like. And so there's 337 00:18:52,680 --> 00:18:56,240 Speaker 1: been this constant conversation between religious groups for quite some 338 00:18:56,320 --> 00:18:58,639 Speaker 1: time here in the United States. And then you have 339 00:18:58,760 --> 00:19:01,480 Speaker 1: faith groups, for instance, talk about in the book Indigenous 340 00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:03,760 Speaker 1: rights activists, for whom they say that their faith isn't 341 00:19:03,800 --> 00:19:06,640 Speaker 1: even recognized by culture in general. You know, they say 342 00:19:06,640 --> 00:19:09,160 Speaker 1: that when they're fighting for sacred land and standing rock, 343 00:19:09,280 --> 00:19:11,639 Speaker 1: or protests in the construction of a telescope on the 344 00:19:11,640 --> 00:19:14,280 Speaker 1: top of Mount Chaa in Hawaii, people just don't even 345 00:19:14,320 --> 00:19:16,520 Speaker 1: see their faith is equal as one that they could 346 00:19:16,640 --> 00:19:19,879 Speaker 1: have a con when they're talking about, say Christianity or Judaism. 347 00:19:20,119 --> 00:19:22,680 Speaker 1: And so it's one of those things where we're having 348 00:19:22,920 --> 00:19:25,879 Speaker 1: this debate where there's a reason you have heard of 349 00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:28,040 Speaker 1: people on both sides of this debate, whether it's William 350 00:19:28,080 --> 00:19:30,879 Speaker 1: Barber or someone like Jerry Foward Junior or Robert Jeffries, 351 00:19:31,000 --> 00:19:33,600 Speaker 1: whose sermon when God Chooses a leader, by the way, 352 00:19:33,640 --> 00:19:36,880 Speaker 1: is the sermon he delivered to Trump on his inauguration day, 353 00:19:37,240 --> 00:19:40,240 Speaker 1: where there have been comments where like they both kind 354 00:19:40,240 --> 00:19:43,119 Speaker 1: of infer that the other is a heretic. And the 355 00:19:43,440 --> 00:19:47,120 Speaker 1: implication there is that, you know, these might be very 356 00:19:47,200 --> 00:19:50,439 Speaker 1: different strains of Christianity for whom you know, finding that 357 00:19:50,480 --> 00:19:53,040 Speaker 1: sort of reconciliation. This is just in a Christian context. 358 00:19:53,080 --> 00:19:55,360 Speaker 1: We're not even including the multiple parts of the religious 359 00:19:55,400 --> 00:19:58,000 Speaker 1: left that are not Christian at all, you know, finding 360 00:19:58,000 --> 00:20:01,480 Speaker 1: the reconciliation across difference. There. They they're you know, they're 361 00:20:01,520 --> 00:20:04,360 Speaker 1: they're praying very different prayers, they are preaching to very 362 00:20:04,359 --> 00:20:07,600 Speaker 1: different groups of people, and even during this this pandemic, 363 00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:09,880 Speaker 1: you know, to your point, one of the fascinating things 364 00:20:09,920 --> 00:20:12,720 Speaker 1: I've seen develop is there's essentially been two strains of 365 00:20:12,800 --> 00:20:16,280 Speaker 1: religious activism in the United States. One Christian conservative, there 366 00:20:16,280 --> 00:20:19,320 Speaker 1: have been transaggressions of social distancing across the religious spectrum. 367 00:20:20,040 --> 00:20:23,200 Speaker 1: Conservatives in particular have taken it up as a cause, 368 00:20:23,720 --> 00:20:26,320 Speaker 1: and you know, saying that these these you know, lockdowns 369 00:20:26,359 --> 00:20:29,119 Speaker 1: on their houses of worship have been you know, unfair. 370 00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:32,760 Speaker 1: They've been pastors in Louisiana and Florida that have been arrested, 371 00:20:32,880 --> 00:20:35,040 Speaker 1: and conservative groups like the Liberty Council have come to 372 00:20:35,080 --> 00:20:38,280 Speaker 1: their defense to sue local or state authorities for cracking 373 00:20:38,359 --> 00:20:41,959 Speaker 1: down on worship communities. And then meanwhile, you have groups 374 00:20:41,960 --> 00:20:46,200 Speaker 1: like a Poor People's Campaign launching an initiative called Stay Home, 375 00:20:46,320 --> 00:20:49,960 Speaker 1: Stay Alive because they oppose the reopening of these of 376 00:20:50,080 --> 00:20:52,639 Speaker 1: these states and worship houses of worship, they say, because 377 00:20:52,760 --> 00:20:56,440 Speaker 1: he will disproportionately impact the poor. Or a Union seminary 378 00:20:56,480 --> 00:20:58,440 Speaker 1: in New York teaming up with the ACLU to run 379 00:20:58,480 --> 00:21:01,560 Speaker 1: ads calling for the release of prisoners who are disproportionately 380 00:21:01,760 --> 00:21:04,960 Speaker 1: at risk of contracting the virus, noting that the largest 381 00:21:05,000 --> 00:21:07,720 Speaker 1: COVID clusters in the United States are usually in prisons, 382 00:21:07,840 --> 00:21:10,160 Speaker 1: or the you know, the Jewish group Never Again action 383 00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:13,160 Speaker 1: that was helping organize for the release of immigrant TEA 384 00:21:13,320 --> 00:21:16,719 Speaker 1: detainees who are also disproportionately at risk of contracting this virus. 385 00:21:17,200 --> 00:21:20,040 Speaker 1: And you see the President this past week when he 386 00:21:20,320 --> 00:21:22,920 Speaker 1: released this statement saying that, you know, he wanted to 387 00:21:23,520 --> 00:21:26,880 Speaker 1: push push governors to reopen churches. You know, he's only 388 00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:30,600 Speaker 1: responding to one of those streams of activism and the 389 00:21:30,680 --> 00:21:32,479 Speaker 1: other one that's calling for, like, you know, to pay 390 00:21:32,520 --> 00:21:34,680 Speaker 1: attention to you know, what Christians might call the least 391 00:21:34,680 --> 00:21:37,479 Speaker 1: of these, the poor, the prisoner, the immigrants. That's just 392 00:21:37,520 --> 00:21:40,920 Speaker 1: a it's a completely different theological conversation than the one 393 00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:44,200 Speaker 1: conservative Christians are having right now is calling against these 394 00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:47,960 Speaker 1: shutdowns and for you know, this religious liberty quote unquote 395 00:21:48,040 --> 00:21:50,560 Speaker 1: for worship services, and they're just I know, it's a 396 00:21:50,600 --> 00:21:53,520 Speaker 1: long window way of saying, I haven't even seen many 397 00:21:53,520 --> 00:21:56,240 Speaker 1: conversations happening between these groups when I've gone to some 398 00:21:56,280 --> 00:21:58,680 Speaker 1: of these demonstrations, some of which I chronicle in the book. 399 00:21:58,960 --> 00:22:02,240 Speaker 1: When people, for instance, when protested near Liberty University, these 400 00:22:02,240 --> 00:22:06,000 Speaker 1: red letter Christians, these more progressive evangelicals, they wanted to 401 00:22:06,040 --> 00:22:08,360 Speaker 1: pray with Jerry follow Junior, and instead he put out 402 00:22:08,359 --> 00:22:11,400 Speaker 1: in a restaurant for one of the main organizers. So 403 00:22:11,440 --> 00:22:14,040 Speaker 1: I feel like, that's how big the divide is between 404 00:22:14,080 --> 00:22:17,040 Speaker 1: these computers. And I feel like between that divide, America 405 00:22:17,160 --> 00:22:21,000 Speaker 1: is falling in the cracks, right like, because you know, 406 00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:24,199 Speaker 1: one of the most disturbing images that I've seen, and 407 00:22:24,240 --> 00:22:27,520 Speaker 1: I've seen, you know, several from these reopened protests that 408 00:22:27,560 --> 00:22:29,919 Speaker 1: are happening is a sign that was held by this 409 00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:33,040 Speaker 1: young white girl that said, don't wear a mask. God 410 00:22:33,119 --> 00:22:39,360 Speaker 1: has you covered. And I looked at this image and 411 00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:43,240 Speaker 1: I'm thinking to myself, Oh, there's nowhere for us to 412 00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:48,000 Speaker 1: go from here, right Like, you can't you can't rationalize. 413 00:22:48,040 --> 00:22:52,560 Speaker 1: You can't come up with a factual argument to somebody 414 00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:57,520 Speaker 1: who is telling you that they don't need man made protection, 415 00:22:57,920 --> 00:23:01,520 Speaker 1: They don't need ppees, they don't need masks and gloves 416 00:23:01,560 --> 00:23:05,760 Speaker 1: and sanitizer. You just need to believe in God. The 417 00:23:05,840 --> 00:23:09,439 Speaker 1: assumption would follow. Then what that the hundred thousand people 418 00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:13,200 Speaker 1: who have since died to date of the COVID virus 419 00:23:13,520 --> 00:23:17,960 Speaker 1: are what are all heritas are all exactly? I don't understand. 420 00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:20,879 Speaker 1: It's yeah, I mean that that is the implicit message 421 00:23:20,880 --> 00:23:23,119 Speaker 1: of that of that message is that all of the 422 00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:25,440 Speaker 1: all of the people who have died, were you were 423 00:23:25,440 --> 00:23:28,680 Speaker 1: they not protected? By God, and I think again, I 424 00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:32,640 Speaker 1: don't know how to rationalize with people who, to me 425 00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:38,440 Speaker 1: seem incredibly irrational. Right. And you know your book, I 426 00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:42,840 Speaker 1: I love it because it presents like a different view 427 00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:47,320 Speaker 1: from me. Right, And I'm sure many people about religion 428 00:23:47,359 --> 00:23:50,640 Speaker 1: and the purpose and the role of religion in politics 429 00:23:52,119 --> 00:23:56,120 Speaker 1: because we are so broken and so so shattered as 430 00:23:56,200 --> 00:23:59,760 Speaker 1: a country. I'm assuming the answer is yes, but I 431 00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:03,920 Speaker 1: want you to dig into it more with the removal 432 00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:09,119 Speaker 1: of religion from our government, from our systems be a 433 00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:13,199 Speaker 1: way to begin to heal this country, because if you 434 00:24:13,359 --> 00:24:15,920 Speaker 1: choose one side of the other, one is a losing 435 00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:19,240 Speaker 1: I don't want to knock people's faith, but I want 436 00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:22,920 Speaker 1: to challenge like the foundation of their thinking and who 437 00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:26,600 Speaker 1: they shut out with it. You know, we're supposed to 438 00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:29,119 Speaker 1: have a separation of church and state. We're supposed to 439 00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:34,840 Speaker 1: have these things, but we don't. We and we never have, right, 440 00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:38,040 Speaker 1: And so I feel like different activists who respond to 441 00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:40,919 Speaker 1: your question differently, because it really kind of depends on 442 00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:44,479 Speaker 1: what we really mean by the separation of church and state. Right, 443 00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:47,240 Speaker 1: Because there's one thing to say, you know, no violations 444 00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:49,639 Speaker 1: of the Establishment Clause. A part of our constitution that 445 00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:53,399 Speaker 1: says you can't establish one religion, and that's sometimes been 446 00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:56,480 Speaker 1: interpreted to mean any like religion. In general, you can't 447 00:24:56,480 --> 00:24:59,560 Speaker 1: get preferential treatment to religion as opposed to those who 448 00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:02,760 Speaker 1: are non religists, who often in polling or you know, 449 00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:05,720 Speaker 1: fall behind every other religious category in terms of what 450 00:25:05,760 --> 00:25:08,080 Speaker 1: somebody would vote for. You know, if you're an atheist, um, 451 00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:10,840 Speaker 1: you were, you were, you know, according to polling, significantly 452 00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:13,720 Speaker 1: less likely to be elected than if you were religious 453 00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:17,280 Speaker 1: of almost any other any other religious identity. And so 454 00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:20,000 Speaker 1: I think that there has been this sort of frustration 455 00:25:20,119 --> 00:25:23,239 Speaker 1: among a lot of secular activists saying like, look, you know, 456 00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:26,160 Speaker 1: even even when looking at the religious left, saying, look, 457 00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:28,960 Speaker 1: you know, we're we're excited about the causes you're you're 458 00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:31,000 Speaker 1: supporting we have, we also share a lot of these 459 00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:34,000 Speaker 1: progressive values. But if we just trade the religious right 460 00:25:34,119 --> 00:25:35,960 Speaker 1: for the religious left, then we're just going to end 461 00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:40,560 Speaker 1: up with this other community that occupies space in spaces 462 00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:43,359 Speaker 1: of power that you know, well, the gateway to entries 463 00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:46,560 Speaker 1: you have to believe in, think like I do, and um, 464 00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:48,440 Speaker 1: and if that's the gateway to entry, then then we're 465 00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:51,280 Speaker 1: not going to be there. This is me speaking hypothetically 466 00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:53,600 Speaker 1: on behalf of a secular activist. And to be clear, 467 00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:56,160 Speaker 1: some people who are people of faith hold that exactly. 468 00:25:56,200 --> 00:25:57,720 Speaker 1: You are just articulated. You know, They're like, I go 469 00:25:57,760 --> 00:25:59,399 Speaker 1: to church every Sunday, but I really don't want you 470 00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:03,040 Speaker 1: to preach it me from a presidential podium, right. But 471 00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:05,960 Speaker 1: I think what some of the religious left activists that 472 00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:09,640 Speaker 1: I've spoken to argue is that because the religious left 473 00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:13,159 Speaker 1: in its current iteration is so fundamentally different than the 474 00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:16,480 Speaker 1: religious right, and that the left in its current iteration 475 00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:19,600 Speaker 1: is so much, so much fund elimentally different from the 476 00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:22,600 Speaker 1: religious right, because it is this coalition of coalitions. You 477 00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:25,679 Speaker 1: cannot win unless you get enough of these different groups 478 00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:30,520 Speaker 1: on board that there's significantly more negotiation and compromise and 479 00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:34,040 Speaker 1: you know, just working together to get a goal occurring. 480 00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:36,440 Speaker 1: Then the religious right, ever has to do. The religious 481 00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:39,800 Speaker 1: right cannot compromise. It can just not compromise and still 482 00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:43,760 Speaker 1: influence the Republican Party every election cycle, whereas the religious 483 00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:45,640 Speaker 1: left has had to learn how to like being able 484 00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:48,480 Speaker 1: to be in conversation with atheist agnostics and you know, 485 00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:50,639 Speaker 1: try to elevate them. There are definitely critiques that they 486 00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:53,000 Speaker 1: are not elevated enough even within these movements, but the 487 00:26:53,040 --> 00:26:56,240 Speaker 1: fact that you're hearing people like you. For instance, Peo 488 00:26:56,280 --> 00:26:58,520 Speaker 1: Budh Judge got a lot of attention for talking about 489 00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:01,480 Speaker 1: his faith this last go round. He would begin every 490 00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:03,359 Speaker 1: one of those conversations by saying, but I want to 491 00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:05,560 Speaker 1: be a president of people of all faith and no faith. 492 00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:08,480 Speaker 1: You heard that similar lines articulated by Hory Booker or 493 00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:11,520 Speaker 1: Kamala Harris or Elizabeth Warren or Bernie Sanders. Because they 494 00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:13,960 Speaker 1: understand that you're going to have a hard time winning 495 00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:16,919 Speaker 1: if you're not also able to appeal to secular voters 496 00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:19,480 Speaker 1: who would occupy, who would go to the voting booth 497 00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:22,680 Speaker 1: and vote for a Democrat, and so you know, whether 498 00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:24,760 Speaker 1: they would I think a lot of these activists would 499 00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:27,560 Speaker 1: say that you shouldn't. You know, the removal of religion 500 00:27:27,840 --> 00:27:31,119 Speaker 1: from politics, I'm sorry, the removal of church from state 501 00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:34,800 Speaker 1: is like a foundational tenant. Whether you can extricate faith 502 00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:38,959 Speaker 1: from politics, though, is a significantly different conversation. That's like, 503 00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:41,000 Speaker 1: you know, how could you As long as there are 504 00:27:41,080 --> 00:27:43,800 Speaker 1: religious human beings, religion is in and of itself and 505 00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:46,480 Speaker 1: often a political act. You know, when you organize when 506 00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:48,600 Speaker 1: you make an economy, when you make your own schools, 507 00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:50,840 Speaker 1: when you have your own books that you read, that 508 00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:54,119 Speaker 1: will often have political implications, and so I think it 509 00:27:54,119 --> 00:27:57,960 Speaker 1: would be really difficult to fully ever extricate faith from politics. 510 00:27:57,960 --> 00:28:00,280 Speaker 1: And I think from the activist's point of view, you know, 511 00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:04,520 Speaker 1: they show up to support immigrants because of their sacred texts, 512 00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:07,800 Speaker 1: they show up to support sacred land and indigenous activists 513 00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:10,280 Speaker 1: because of the spiritual beliefs from which they were raised. 514 00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:13,480 Speaker 1: So it really kind of comes down to a negotiation, 515 00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:16,879 Speaker 1: I think, among progressives and the country in general, about 516 00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:21,280 Speaker 1: where is that line where what your religious freedom means 517 00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:25,600 Speaker 1: can impinge on my freedom to do other things. And 518 00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:27,800 Speaker 1: I think the left is having a different version of 519 00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:31,280 Speaker 1: that conversation and the conservatives are, but I would expect 520 00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:33,840 Speaker 1: and I actually this is an interesting question because how 521 00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:36,520 Speaker 1: the religious left has kind of risen into prominence in 522 00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:39,600 Speaker 1: the last three years under Trump. Were Joe Biden the 523 00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:43,560 Speaker 1: presumtive Democratic nominee to become president, I'm curious of whether 524 00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:46,520 Speaker 1: or not that coalition stays together, that religious left coalition 525 00:28:46,560 --> 00:28:50,920 Speaker 1: stays together, and whether a lot of the secular activists 526 00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:54,320 Speaker 1: have been relatively less critical of their activism during the 527 00:28:54,320 --> 00:28:57,720 Speaker 1: Trump era, if we renew that same conversation that I 528 00:28:57,800 --> 00:29:00,240 Speaker 1: heard you having a few minutes ago, to say, hey, look, 529 00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:03,120 Speaker 1: I get it. You're religious, you're showing up, You're you're 530 00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:05,320 Speaker 1: supporting the same cause as I am. But I do 531 00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:07,320 Speaker 1: not want to live in a theocracy, and I don't 532 00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:09,680 Speaker 1: want to live in a universe that only privileges people 533 00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:12,280 Speaker 1: of faith, even if they know they have different faiths. 534 00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:14,560 Speaker 1: So how do we have that have a society where 535 00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:17,800 Speaker 1: where my rights are just as protected as yours? And 536 00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:20,440 Speaker 1: I think that's an ongoing conversation, you know, because one 537 00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:23,600 Speaker 1: of the really eye opening things that I have come 538 00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:28,800 Speaker 1: to realize in this current political time is that the 539 00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:32,560 Speaker 1: right right, whether it be the religious right or the 540 00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:38,080 Speaker 1: political right, and the left are so different in their 541 00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:43,880 Speaker 1: discussion and understanding of liberty and what justice actually looks like, 542 00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:47,800 Speaker 1: and what faith actually is and what I have come 543 00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:51,040 Speaker 1: to understand and I talk I talk about it, spoken 544 00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:53,240 Speaker 1: about it with with several people on PM Moved but 545 00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:56,840 Speaker 1: also also on woke. A f is that it seems 546 00:29:56,880 --> 00:30:01,240 Speaker 1: to me that the right and the religious right, in particular, 547 00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:04,640 Speaker 1: their desire and their understanding of liberty is about their 548 00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:08,840 Speaker 1: ability to persecute and oppress others. Right, it's about it's 549 00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:12,440 Speaker 1: about their freedom to tell other people what they can 550 00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:14,760 Speaker 1: and can't do with their body, what they can and 551 00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:18,440 Speaker 1: can't do with their land, what value they do or 552 00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:22,400 Speaker 1: do not offer to society based on how much money 553 00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:25,840 Speaker 1: they have in their bank accounts. It's the ability to dictate. 554 00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:30,840 Speaker 1: And for me, I don't see there being any reconciliation 555 00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:35,400 Speaker 1: because the religious left has come to the understanding of 556 00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:39,880 Speaker 1: liberty and faith as you being able to practice what 557 00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:42,840 Speaker 1: it is that you choose or do not choose. Right. 558 00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:47,160 Speaker 1: But let's but let's fundamentally connect to the principles of 559 00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:51,560 Speaker 1: uplifting all people right and recognizing that all people are 560 00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:56,360 Speaker 1: human right and should have inalienable rights. And so it's like, 561 00:30:56,600 --> 00:30:59,200 Speaker 1: you know, when we again the you know, the battle 562 00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:02,160 Speaker 1: for the soul of the country, it's something that you know, 563 00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:05,360 Speaker 1: Joe Biden has used that this is his call this 564 00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:07,560 Speaker 1: is this is his calling card for I want to 565 00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:15,800 Speaker 1: point out that before, but he uses it. He used 566 00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:19,840 Speaker 1: it in his opening political ad about the battle for 567 00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:21,840 Speaker 1: the soul of this country, and we hear it all 568 00:31:21,840 --> 00:31:24,040 Speaker 1: the time. So I just want you know, in our 569 00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:26,920 Speaker 1: in our last few minutes together, you to tell me 570 00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:31,200 Speaker 1: what you mean by the battle for the soul of 571 00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:35,560 Speaker 1: America and what that looks like today for you. I'm 572 00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:37,560 Speaker 1: really glad you asked this question, because other people just 573 00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:39,600 Speaker 1: skip over that because they assumed it's a it's a 574 00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:42,280 Speaker 1: it's a presumed understanding, you know, like battle for the soul, 575 00:31:42,280 --> 00:31:45,560 Speaker 1: like whatever. And obviously there's a religious connotation, right, and 576 00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:48,240 Speaker 1: that there is this sort of debate happening between religious 577 00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:52,520 Speaker 1: conservatives and religious liberals, progressives, um leftists about what it 578 00:31:52,560 --> 00:31:56,479 Speaker 1: means to not only to be an American, what it 579 00:31:56,520 --> 00:31:58,760 Speaker 1: means to be a religious American. And you can even 580 00:31:58,840 --> 00:32:00,880 Speaker 1: go all down all the mutations, say what does it 581 00:32:00,920 --> 00:32:03,280 Speaker 1: mean to be a specific kind of Christian or not? 582 00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:07,320 Speaker 1: And so those all all those those theological debates and 583 00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:11,320 Speaker 1: battles are happening at the same time, and they affect 584 00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:13,840 Speaker 1: one another. Right, when Catholics fight amongst each other, that 585 00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:17,000 Speaker 1: can have national implications. In fact, the opening chapter of 586 00:32:17,040 --> 00:32:20,240 Speaker 1: my book is about how Catholic nuns and Catholic groups 587 00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:23,520 Speaker 1: in particular had a disproportionate impact on getting the Affordable 588 00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:26,920 Speaker 1: Care Act passed, but they only did that by defying 589 00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:30,280 Speaker 1: the Catholic bishops who were not supportive of the final 590 00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:32,640 Speaker 1: version of the Affordable Care Act, and the nuns came 591 00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:35,320 Speaker 1: out and gave a lot of Catholic lawmakers covered. So 592 00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:39,560 Speaker 1: those inner fights, that those internal debates, even within religious traditions, 593 00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:43,640 Speaker 1: can have very large impact. But I think what it 594 00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:45,520 Speaker 1: means to have a soul of a country obviously that 595 00:32:45,560 --> 00:32:49,800 Speaker 1: has both a explicitly religious definition as well as this 596 00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:53,200 Speaker 1: more rhetorical definition, and I think they overlap, and that 597 00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:57,600 Speaker 1: whether you come to that conversation from a perspective of 598 00:32:57,600 --> 00:32:59,960 Speaker 1: faith or spirituality, or whether you come to that conversation 599 00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:03,000 Speaker 1: with trying to, you know, from a more secular mindset, 600 00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:05,640 Speaker 1: what we're really talking about here is that how are 601 00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:08,920 Speaker 1: we allowed to treat each other? And how are we 602 00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:13,920 Speaker 1: allowed you know, what are their priorities? And who are 603 00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:16,640 Speaker 1: their priorities that we are going to lift up in 604 00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:18,640 Speaker 1: this country? You know, the people that I talk about. 605 00:33:18,800 --> 00:33:20,880 Speaker 1: There's a reason I call the book American Profits, and 606 00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:25,640 Speaker 1: that's because the religious left often uses the mechanism of protests. 607 00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:28,600 Speaker 1: That's what it's been most successful in wielding. And part 608 00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:30,880 Speaker 1: of the reason for that is that while the religious 609 00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:33,240 Speaker 1: right has been very successful at the ballot box and 610 00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:35,479 Speaker 1: in the courts. And to be clear, there are elements 611 00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:37,600 Speaker 1: of the religious left in which they have been successful 612 00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:39,920 Speaker 1: in certain scenarios when it comes to showing up on 613 00:33:39,960 --> 00:33:43,120 Speaker 1: election day. But the part of the reason they are 614 00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:46,120 Speaker 1: using the vehicle of protests is that that is the 615 00:33:46,240 --> 00:33:50,000 Speaker 1: vehicle of influencing power that those who often don't have 616 00:33:50,120 --> 00:33:54,720 Speaker 1: power still have access to. They're able to influence institutions 617 00:33:54,760 --> 00:33:58,240 Speaker 1: through protests because they're not the institutions don't recognize their 618 00:33:58,240 --> 00:34:01,400 Speaker 1: power reflexively to begin with, you know, That's where we're 619 00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:04,400 Speaker 1: going back to. It's like, these are people in communities 620 00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:07,800 Speaker 1: clamoring for society and for the powers that be to 621 00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:11,040 Speaker 1: even recognize the validity of their faiths and the validity 622 00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:14,200 Speaker 1: of their people. And that's what I think a battle 623 00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:16,880 Speaker 1: for a soul really is is is what are you 624 00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:19,279 Speaker 1: willing to you know, whether that's a religious soul you know, 625 00:34:19,520 --> 00:34:22,520 Speaker 1: which you answer to a higher power, or a secular 626 00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:26,360 Speaker 1: soul that answers to everybody immediately around you. The effect 627 00:34:26,480 --> 00:34:29,120 Speaker 1: is very similar, which is that what are you willing 628 00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:32,480 Speaker 1: to be as a country and who are we collectively 629 00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:35,160 Speaker 1: going to decide to care about? Well, that is a 630 00:34:35,239 --> 00:34:39,320 Speaker 1: question that I feel like will almost never be answered, 631 00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:42,480 Speaker 1: you know. To be honest, I feel like each generation, 632 00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:47,879 Speaker 1: each administration, has their own idea of what that means. Right, 633 00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:52,120 Speaker 1: Who is deserving? Who isn't? American prophets, Jack, I'm so 634 00:34:52,200 --> 00:34:54,640 Speaker 1: proud of you. This is amazing. I want to tell 635 00:34:54,840 --> 00:34:57,560 Speaker 1: folks so that they know that I met you five 636 00:34:57,719 --> 00:35:01,759 Speaker 1: years ago on a trip that we were both on 637 00:35:02,120 --> 00:35:07,279 Speaker 1: to Israel and Palestine, which forever changed my perspective on 638 00:35:07,320 --> 00:35:11,360 Speaker 1: a lot of things. Who was It was a hard 639 00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:16,400 Speaker 1: fucking trip? It was. It was tough. It was exhausting mentally, emotionally, 640 00:35:16,440 --> 00:35:19,000 Speaker 1: experience was like every everything it was. Yeah, it was 641 00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:21,640 Speaker 1: a tough trip. Have you been back? I have not 642 00:35:21,680 --> 00:35:24,040 Speaker 1: been back. I've wanted to. Have you been back? Since? No, 643 00:35:24,200 --> 00:35:26,279 Speaker 1: I have not, and I have, and I honestly I 644 00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:28,600 Speaker 1: have wanted to. When we left, I said that I 645 00:35:28,640 --> 00:35:32,279 Speaker 1: would never go back because of how traumatic the experience was. 646 00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:35,000 Speaker 1: Just I just have you know, and this is going 647 00:35:35,080 --> 00:35:37,480 Speaker 1: to sound very interesting in this particular moment, being a 648 00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:41,360 Speaker 1: black queer woman in America, I had never seen such 649 00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:46,040 Speaker 1: overt discrimination and oppression in my entire life, and that 650 00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:48,960 Speaker 1: means a lot coming from me. I had never and 651 00:35:49,040 --> 00:35:51,160 Speaker 1: it was just like one of the most and the 652 00:35:51,239 --> 00:35:54,840 Speaker 1: way in which religion again was used, is used to 653 00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:58,560 Speaker 1: do that, to create one group that should be oppressed 654 00:35:58,680 --> 00:36:02,080 Speaker 1: because they're deemed as voler less than has always sat 655 00:36:02,120 --> 00:36:05,839 Speaker 1: with me so like so deeply. Yeah, it was. It 656 00:36:05,920 --> 00:36:09,840 Speaker 1: was an interesting experience. Yeah, I carry it with me. 657 00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:12,279 Speaker 1: I mean I've I've written many stories based off of 658 00:36:12,280 --> 00:36:14,800 Speaker 1: the reporting I did in that trip and and it 659 00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:17,600 Speaker 1: has informed a lot of things I've done since then 660 00:36:17,640 --> 00:36:19,640 Speaker 1: as well. And I think it's, you know, it's one 661 00:36:19,680 --> 00:36:21,799 Speaker 1: of those things where as a reporter, you know, I'm 662 00:36:21,800 --> 00:36:24,799 Speaker 1: a religion reporter, so understanding relation it's really important for 663 00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:28,640 Speaker 1: a variety of reasons. And just going is not reading 664 00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:31,240 Speaker 1: about it on the news or you know, watching videos. 665 00:36:31,239 --> 00:36:34,720 Speaker 1: It's just not the same as going. And it makes it. Yeah, 666 00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:39,160 Speaker 1: it does well. Everyone needs to pick up American prophets, 667 00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:42,680 Speaker 1: religious roots of progressive politics and the ongoing fight for 668 00:36:42,719 --> 00:36:47,000 Speaker 1: the soul of the country. Jack, thank you so much, 669 00:36:47,680 --> 00:36:50,720 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for having me. Thanks for listening 670 00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:54,640 Speaker 1: to this week's PM mood. My political podcast, Woke af 671 00:36:54,719 --> 00:36:58,000 Speaker 1: Daily is on Patreon for just five dollars a month. 672 00:36:58,280 --> 00:37:01,960 Speaker 1: That's five new our law shows every week for just 673 00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:06,239 Speaker 1: five dollars a month. Join the conversation now at Patreon 674 00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:09,560 Speaker 1: dot com slash woke AF and you can continue listening 675 00:37:09,560 --> 00:37:13,560 Speaker 1: to PM mood every week absolutely free. Now more than 676 00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:17,120 Speaker 1: ever we see the importance of independent media, so thank 677 00:37:17,160 --> 00:37:20,560 Speaker 1: you for your support, and as always, stay in the 678 00:37:20,640 --> 00:37:22,720 Speaker 1: PM mood to change the world.