1
00:00:02,200 --> 00:00:06,800
Speaker 1: This is Masters in Business with Barry Ridholts on Boomberg Radio.

2
00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:12,160
Speaker 1: This week on the podcast, I have an extra special guest.

3
00:00:12,400 --> 00:00:16,239
Speaker 1: His name is Greg Sands. He is the founder and

4
00:00:16,280 --> 00:00:19,680
Speaker 1: managing partner at Cost to No A Ventures, of venture

5
00:00:19,720 --> 00:00:23,480
Speaker 1: capital firm that has been around for a decade or two.

6
00:00:23,880 --> 00:00:28,160
Speaker 1: He was the original product manager at a little firm

7
00:00:28,240 --> 00:00:33,600
Speaker 1: called Netscape, working with Jim Clark and Mark Andreeson. Uh.

8
00:00:33,640 --> 00:00:36,080
Speaker 1: Not only was he the first product manager, he put

9
00:00:36,120 --> 00:00:39,159
Speaker 1: together the business plan and he came up with the

10
00:00:39,240 --> 00:00:44,519
Speaker 1: name Netscape. And he is not just a technologist, but

11
00:00:44,600 --> 00:00:49,080
Speaker 1: a venture investor and a very insightful person who sits

12
00:00:49,720 --> 00:00:54,480
Speaker 1: really at the nexus of a number of fascinating aspects

13
00:00:54,760 --> 00:00:59,920
Speaker 1: of business, finance, technology. Go down the list. Uh, they're

14
00:01:00,080 --> 00:01:04,800
Speaker 1: out in Palo Alto. He is an early seed investor. UM.

15
00:01:05,000 --> 00:01:07,679
Speaker 1: I wouldn't even call it a stage or be a round.

16
00:01:08,040 --> 00:01:11,760
Speaker 1: He's earlier than that. Uh. They focus on a number

17
00:01:11,800 --> 00:01:17,000
Speaker 1: of really interesting technologies and platforms. If you're remotely interested

18
00:01:17,040 --> 00:01:20,840
Speaker 1: in anything having to do with angel or venture capital investing,

19
00:01:21,360 --> 00:01:26,480
Speaker 1: if you're intrigued or fascinated as I am about technology

20
00:01:26,520 --> 00:01:29,600
Speaker 1: and how it's going to develop and impact. Uh, the

21
00:01:29,640 --> 00:01:33,800
Speaker 1: economy and society at large. Then you're really gonna enjoy

22
00:01:33,920 --> 00:01:39,800
Speaker 1: this conversation. So, with no further ado, my interview with

23
00:01:39,920 --> 00:01:47,039
Speaker 1: Greg Sands of Costa no Ah Ventures. My special guest

24
00:01:47,080 --> 00:01:50,760
Speaker 1: today is Greg Sands. He is the founder and managing

25
00:01:50,840 --> 00:01:54,480
Speaker 1: partner of Coast to Noah Ventures. He was the first

26
00:01:54,520 --> 00:01:58,440
Speaker 1: product manager at Netscape Communications, where he not only wrote

27
00:01:58,720 --> 00:02:03,320
Speaker 1: the initial business plan in but coined the name Netscape.

28
00:02:03,720 --> 00:02:06,720
Speaker 1: Greg Sands, Welcome to Bloomberg. It's great to be here

29
00:02:06,760 --> 00:02:10,720
Speaker 1: with you. So you're a founder and a managing partner

30
00:02:10,800 --> 00:02:13,800
Speaker 1: at a venture capital firm. Is this the sort of

31
00:02:13,960 --> 00:02:16,880
Speaker 1: career path you were expecting to take? Your background is

32
00:02:16,919 --> 00:02:21,040
Speaker 1: not quite um total VC, although I guess in hindsight

33
00:02:21,080 --> 00:02:24,280
Speaker 1: we could say that, well, it isn't what I saw

34
00:02:24,320 --> 00:02:27,040
Speaker 1: myself doing as a kid. I grew up thinking I

35
00:02:27,040 --> 00:02:30,480
Speaker 1: wanted to be the Senator from the great state of Minnesota,

36
00:02:30,760 --> 00:02:33,520
Speaker 1: and much to my surprise, Al Franken holds that job

37
00:02:33,960 --> 00:02:37,280
Speaker 1: instead of me. So that's funny. I expected to be

38
00:02:37,320 --> 00:02:39,639
Speaker 1: a fighter pilot or an astronaut, so we had very

39
00:02:39,639 --> 00:02:42,520
Speaker 1: different goals, that's right, absolutely, and so that evolved as

40
00:02:42,600 --> 00:02:47,640
Speaker 1: I as I got into my career. Initially, at a

41
00:02:47,639 --> 00:02:50,639
Speaker 1: management consulting firm in Boston, made my way to business

42
00:02:50,680 --> 00:02:53,600
Speaker 1: school in at Stanford, so in the in the heart

43
00:02:53,600 --> 00:02:56,480
Speaker 1: of Silicon Valley, and then just started navigating my way

44
00:02:56,520 --> 00:03:01,200
Speaker 1: through the software. So so from Minnesota to Cambridge in

45
00:03:01,200 --> 00:03:05,639
Speaker 1: in outside of Boston to southern California. Did you how

46
00:03:05,680 --> 00:03:09,399
Speaker 1: did how did that transition go? I'm always surprised at

47
00:03:09,440 --> 00:03:13,239
Speaker 1: how people find their way to California and it's, oh

48
00:03:13,240 --> 00:03:16,360
Speaker 1: my god, it's beautiful. The geography is spectacular, the weather

49
00:03:16,480 --> 00:03:19,160
Speaker 1: is great. It's hard to leave there, isn't it. Well, yes,

50
00:03:19,240 --> 00:03:22,280
Speaker 1: and so you know we're we're we're in Palato in

51
00:03:22,280 --> 00:03:25,800
Speaker 1: the in northern California, near near San Francisco. And I

52
00:03:26,000 --> 00:03:29,000
Speaker 1: ended up, having spent seven years in Boston and Cambridge,

53
00:03:29,840 --> 00:03:32,880
Speaker 1: having the opportunity to head out there. And I didn't

54
00:03:32,880 --> 00:03:36,600
Speaker 1: know what I was getting into. I literally told people, Hey,

55
00:03:36,720 --> 00:03:38,840
Speaker 1: I'm I'm going to Stanford. I'm going to the beach.

56
00:03:39,200 --> 00:03:41,280
Speaker 1: And they said, it's not anywhere near the beach. Have

57
00:03:41,400 --> 00:03:42,880
Speaker 1: you ever been there? And I said no, but it

58
00:03:42,880 --> 00:03:47,840
Speaker 1: sounds great. The weather, everything is still spectacular. Boston's winters

59
00:03:47,840 --> 00:03:51,080
Speaker 1: are not not easy winters, well, they're easy when you

60
00:03:51,320 --> 00:03:53,600
Speaker 1: spent the first eighteen of them in Minnesota. I guess

61
00:03:53,640 --> 00:03:56,360
Speaker 1: it's all relative, isn't it. So so let's talk a

62
00:03:56,440 --> 00:03:59,839
Speaker 1: little bit about, um, what you were doing at at

63
00:04:00,280 --> 00:04:04,880
Speaker 1: uh sutter Hill. You started at a very story I

64
00:04:04,920 --> 00:04:08,320
Speaker 1: guess the first venture capital firms sutter Hill goes back

65
00:04:08,360 --> 00:04:10,440
Speaker 1: to the early sixties. Yeah, that's right, goes back to

66
00:04:10,480 --> 00:04:13,720
Speaker 1: the early sixties, and it's the longest running venture capital

67
00:04:13,760 --> 00:04:15,160
Speaker 1: firm on the East Coast. There were a couple of

68
00:04:15,200 --> 00:04:18,680
Speaker 1: earlier firms, but that don't still exist now, don't aren't

69
00:04:18,720 --> 00:04:21,920
Speaker 1: they also out in Palo Alto or y? I mean

70
00:04:21,960 --> 00:04:26,559
Speaker 1: then the original am I misremembering the original Sandhill VC?

71
00:04:26,920 --> 00:04:29,240
Speaker 1: Or or were they not not on sand Hill? But

72
00:04:29,360 --> 00:04:31,760
Speaker 1: you would think of him as basically the original West

73
00:04:31,760 --> 00:04:36,279
Speaker 1: Coast venture capital firm and a storied firm. Uh. You know,

74
00:04:36,440 --> 00:04:39,640
Speaker 1: a great group of people, very high integrity, great values,

75
00:04:39,680 --> 00:04:43,960
Speaker 1: performed exceptionally well, incredible companies video and just the list

76
00:04:44,040 --> 00:04:47,359
Speaker 1: of of companies that they backed were astonishing. And you

77
00:04:47,360 --> 00:04:51,600
Speaker 1: were there for more than a decade. What was that experience? Like? Well,

78
00:04:51,960 --> 00:04:56,680
Speaker 1: I came in having been basically uh GM of business unit,

79
00:04:56,720 --> 00:04:58,560
Speaker 1: most recently at ne Tscape. So I had never been

80
00:04:58,600 --> 00:05:01,719
Speaker 1: a professional investor, and I came in there was a

81
00:05:01,760 --> 00:05:05,680
Speaker 1: group of five partners or managing directors who had all

82
00:05:05,720 --> 00:05:10,560
Speaker 1: been there at least, you know, really thirteen to twenty

83
00:05:10,640 --> 00:05:13,239
Speaker 1: five years, and so I got to learn the trade

84
00:05:13,839 --> 00:05:17,240
Speaker 1: of venture capital. And so even in our at Coastineau,

85
00:05:17,360 --> 00:05:20,240
Speaker 1: we talked a lot about the old school craft a

86
00:05:20,400 --> 00:05:23,039
Speaker 1: venture capital and being a partnered entrepreneurs and being a

87
00:05:23,080 --> 00:05:25,560
Speaker 1: company builder. And I really did get to learn that

88
00:05:26,040 --> 00:05:29,360
Speaker 1: with an extraordinary group of people and feel really fortunate

89
00:05:29,400 --> 00:05:30,960
Speaker 1: to have been able to do that. What were some

90
00:05:31,040 --> 00:05:33,880
Speaker 1: of the companies you worked on when you were at

91
00:05:33,920 --> 00:05:37,520
Speaker 1: a Sutter Hill so Yoku, which is about the world's

92
00:05:37,520 --> 00:05:40,240
Speaker 1: third largest video property now owned by Ali Baba, but

93
00:05:40,279 --> 00:05:42,280
Speaker 1: went public on the New York Stock Exchange and was

94
00:05:42,880 --> 00:05:44,920
Speaker 1: had a five billion dollar markets going to say, that's

95
00:05:44,920 --> 00:05:46,920
Speaker 1: a good exit to Ali Baba. That's right now, that's

96
00:05:46,920 --> 00:05:49,440
Speaker 1: an excellent one. Quinn Street, which is a public company.

97
00:05:49,440 --> 00:05:52,240
Speaker 1: It was a guy in twenty power point slides. That's

98
00:05:52,279 --> 00:05:56,760
Speaker 1: a performance marketing company. And one that I that I

99
00:05:56,839 --> 00:05:59,440
Speaker 1: love but isn't very well known as a company called

100
00:05:59,720 --> 00:06:02,520
Speaker 1: mrs Said Systems. It was a call center performance management

101
00:06:02,920 --> 00:06:07,920
Speaker 1: software company. That's and we uh, we are they still

102
00:06:07,960 --> 00:06:10,599
Speaker 1: independent or they were brought by Nice Systems, which is

103
00:06:10,640 --> 00:06:15,120
Speaker 1: a billion dollar public software company and uh, and one

104
00:06:15,200 --> 00:06:18,360
Speaker 1: of the two founders there is working with us at

105
00:06:18,360 --> 00:06:20,800
Speaker 1: Coast to know Mark selco Oh really, that's really that's

106
00:06:20,800 --> 00:06:25,039
Speaker 1: really interesting. I recall you did something with feed burner.

107
00:06:25,160 --> 00:06:27,719
Speaker 1: Was that at sutter Hill. So back at Cutter Hill,

108
00:06:27,760 --> 00:06:30,960
Speaker 1: I was an investor at feed Burner. So Brad felt

109
00:06:30,960 --> 00:06:35,040
Speaker 1: from founder group and I let around and so I

110
00:06:35,080 --> 00:06:37,640
Speaker 1: was I was an observer on the board and worked

111
00:06:37,640 --> 00:06:42,360
Speaker 1: with Dick Costello and team and it was a terrific experience.

112
00:06:42,680 --> 00:06:44,960
Speaker 1: One of the things that was very interesting about it

113
00:06:45,000 --> 00:06:49,119
Speaker 1: is that Fred Wilson came in a year later and said,

114
00:06:49,400 --> 00:06:51,640
Speaker 1: I turned it down at the last round, but now

115
00:06:51,680 --> 00:06:53,960
Speaker 1: all of my friends in the publishing industry are using it,

116
00:06:54,279 --> 00:06:57,120
Speaker 1: and I want in. He's a blogger. I've been blogging

117
00:06:57,160 --> 00:07:01,520
Speaker 1: for a hundred years. When Google acquired FeedBurner, everybody I

118
00:07:01,600 --> 00:07:04,480
Speaker 1: know is using feedbourder as a way of shooting out

119
00:07:04,520 --> 00:07:08,839
Speaker 1: their daily update. To to this was this was back

120
00:07:08,839 --> 00:07:11,240
Speaker 1: in the day when everybody was using block feeds and

121
00:07:11,280 --> 00:07:15,440
Speaker 1: not actually going to specific websites. But FeedBurner was a

122
00:07:15,480 --> 00:07:17,200
Speaker 1: great property and that was a good exit. Was that

123
00:07:17,320 --> 00:07:19,040
Speaker 1: was a good exit. And yet one of the things

124
00:07:19,080 --> 00:07:22,280
Speaker 1: that I think is most interesting is that the investors

125
00:07:22,560 --> 00:07:24,720
Speaker 1: actually wanted to keep going. We felt like there was

126
00:07:24,760 --> 00:07:28,080
Speaker 1: a bigger, broader opportunity when we were when we were offered,

127
00:07:28,440 --> 00:07:32,120
Speaker 1: UH Google UH came and offered to buy the company,

128
00:07:32,200 --> 00:07:35,320
Speaker 1: and Dick Costelo, to his credit, he looked at us

129
00:07:35,320 --> 00:07:38,800
Speaker 1: and we put together basically effectively a competing offer that

130
00:07:38,840 --> 00:07:41,440
Speaker 1: would provide some founder liquidity. But he looked at us

131
00:07:41,440 --> 00:07:45,200
Speaker 1: and he said, we have in fact won the war

132
00:07:45,320 --> 00:07:47,000
Speaker 1: for the hearts and minds of bloggers, and we are

133
00:07:47,040 --> 00:07:50,760
Speaker 1: deployed everywhere, but we haven't yet figured out how to monetize,

134
00:07:50,960 --> 00:07:53,680
Speaker 1: for example, how to use to insert ads in the

135
00:07:53,760 --> 00:07:56,240
Speaker 1: RSS feeds. And if we had figured out monetization, I

136
00:07:56,280 --> 00:07:58,560
Speaker 1: would press on the gas and go for it. But

137
00:07:58,600 --> 00:08:00,640
Speaker 1: I don't think we've eliminated that risk in a business,

138
00:08:00,640 --> 00:08:03,560
Speaker 1: and as a result, I recommend that we that we

139
00:08:03,600 --> 00:08:06,080
Speaker 1: take this offer and we sell. And that's I think

140
00:08:06,120 --> 00:08:10,200
Speaker 1: a great example of the partnership between great founders and

141
00:08:10,280 --> 00:08:14,480
Speaker 1: leaders and great investors, and that Dick Costello has been

142
00:08:14,520 --> 00:08:17,720
Speaker 1: involved in other tech startups, hasn't he yes, as it

143
00:08:17,760 --> 00:08:20,160
Speaker 1: turns out he he ended up leading Twitter, and he's

144
00:08:20,160 --> 00:08:22,160
Speaker 1: now has his own company and is a is A

145
00:08:22,280 --> 00:08:24,120
Speaker 1: is a great friend and a and a great leader.

146
00:08:24,480 --> 00:08:28,600
Speaker 1: What does a product manager do in a tech startup?

147
00:08:29,360 --> 00:08:34,040
Speaker 1: So product manager is really the person who connects market

148
00:08:34,120 --> 00:08:39,120
Speaker 1: to technology. So ultimately that person decides what you're going

149
00:08:39,160 --> 00:08:42,160
Speaker 1: to build and then works with the engineering team to

150
00:08:42,840 --> 00:08:48,720
Speaker 1: make sure that, uh, what you're delivering basically meets the

151
00:08:48,800 --> 00:08:52,600
Speaker 1: requirements that you've mapped out. So it's a combination of

152
00:08:52,960 --> 00:08:56,319
Speaker 1: making it work, making sure the features are as promised.

153
00:08:56,760 --> 00:08:59,120
Speaker 1: Are you involved in the branding or marketing or is

154
00:08:59,160 --> 00:09:03,640
Speaker 1: that a different team. It's done differently at different times,

155
00:09:03,679 --> 00:09:09,439
Speaker 1: but mainly mainly not mainly the there's a separate marketing organization,

156
00:09:09,480 --> 00:09:14,320
Speaker 1: and there the product management often does product marketing, so

157
00:09:14,440 --> 00:09:17,880
Speaker 1: articulating the features and benefits and capabilities of that product,

158
00:09:17,920 --> 00:09:19,800
Speaker 1: but not of the company as a whole. So you

159
00:09:19,880 --> 00:09:24,360
Speaker 1: put together the first business plan effectively for Netscape. How

160
00:09:24,400 --> 00:09:27,280
Speaker 1: what was the thought process like behind it? It was

161
00:09:27,440 --> 00:09:30,360
Speaker 1: clear that if this worked, it was going to be revolutionary,

162
00:09:30,400 --> 00:09:32,640
Speaker 1: but how was the company ever gonna make any money?

163
00:09:32,840 --> 00:09:36,120
Speaker 1: It was fascinating exercise. So we did, in fact have

164
00:09:37,200 --> 00:09:40,240
Speaker 1: the company and innovated on on a whole variety of things,

165
00:09:40,240 --> 00:09:43,800
Speaker 1: including public beta, including affiliate programs and the like. But

166
00:09:43,920 --> 00:09:46,920
Speaker 1: it really was a very early version of a freemium

167
00:09:46,960 --> 00:09:50,520
Speaker 1: business model where the product was free for personal use

168
00:09:50,640 --> 00:09:54,920
Speaker 1: and use in educational institutions, but we charge businesses. And

169
00:09:55,160 --> 00:09:58,280
Speaker 1: so that's basically what we came up with. And I

170
00:09:58,320 --> 00:10:02,640
Speaker 1: will point out that working with Jim Clark, and you know,

171
00:10:02,679 --> 00:10:05,800
Speaker 1: with his guidance, we came out and we had a

172
00:10:05,840 --> 00:10:07,600
Speaker 1: plan that said the first year of revenue we were

173
00:10:07,640 --> 00:10:10,520
Speaker 1: going to do a little over fifty million dollars. And

174
00:10:10,559 --> 00:10:12,960
Speaker 1: then they hired three vps who are all much more

175
00:10:12,960 --> 00:10:15,200
Speaker 1: experienced than I. I was a kid, a puppy dog,

176
00:10:15,720 --> 00:10:18,000
Speaker 1: and they came in and said, you know what are

177
00:10:18,040 --> 00:10:20,280
Speaker 1: you doing? We actually are going to be responsible for

178
00:10:20,320 --> 00:10:23,080
Speaker 1: delivering this. This is ridiculous. They lowered the plan to

179
00:10:23,280 --> 00:10:24,959
Speaker 1: thirty five and then we went out and did eight.

180
00:10:26,240 --> 00:10:30,800
Speaker 1: So Jim Clark is a fascinating character. I love Michael

181
00:10:30,840 --> 00:10:33,600
Speaker 1: Lewis is the new new Thing. Tell us a little

182
00:10:33,600 --> 00:10:36,880
Speaker 1: bit about working with Jim Clark. Well, Jim has an

183
00:10:36,920 --> 00:10:43,199
Speaker 1: amazing capability of spotting mega trends and assembling incredible people

184
00:10:43,200 --> 00:10:45,800
Speaker 1: to do it before the trends are understood. A well

185
00:10:45,840 --> 00:10:48,719
Speaker 1: known he's we can all see a trend when it's

186
00:10:48,760 --> 00:10:52,240
Speaker 1: fully robust, but his genius is really this is where

187
00:10:52,280 --> 00:10:54,680
Speaker 1: the trend is going to go. Am I over didn't

188
00:10:54,679 --> 00:10:57,800
Speaker 1: know it's exactly right. And so to his credit, he

189
00:10:57,880 --> 00:11:02,079
Speaker 1: went out and saw this thing coming and he went

190
00:11:02,280 --> 00:11:06,680
Speaker 1: and grabbed Mark and Reason, who was also a kid

191
00:11:07,480 --> 00:11:10,640
Speaker 1: years old right at the time, and said, this is

192
00:11:10,679 --> 00:11:12,680
Speaker 1: the guy who has been the innovator in the category.

193
00:11:12,760 --> 00:11:14,880
Speaker 1: I want to work with him. We can go do

194
00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:18,280
Speaker 1: this together. And there aren't very many people who are

195
00:11:18,320 --> 00:11:23,240
Speaker 1: already luminaries, who have already started and led public companies

196
00:11:23,360 --> 00:11:25,760
Speaker 1: who go and look to a twenty one year old

197
00:11:26,080 --> 00:11:28,760
Speaker 1: right and say we're going to do this together. We're partners,

198
00:11:28,880 --> 00:11:32,319
Speaker 1: and and be right in his selection of people. And

199
00:11:32,640 --> 00:11:35,199
Speaker 1: by the way, Andreason was a prior guest. It's one

200
00:11:35,200 --> 00:11:39,280
Speaker 1: of everybody's favorite interviews because he is just fascinating. So

201
00:11:39,520 --> 00:11:41,920
Speaker 1: you were working with him in the early days, tell

202
00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:45,840
Speaker 1: us a little bit about Mark. What was that like? So, uh,

203
00:11:45,880 --> 00:11:49,680
Speaker 1: it was really clear that not only was Mark brilliant,

204
00:11:49,720 --> 00:11:53,160
Speaker 1: but he was just learning at an incredible rate. And

205
00:11:53,240 --> 00:11:55,440
Speaker 1: so I know about you but at twenty one, I

206
00:11:55,440 --> 00:11:59,280
Speaker 1: had no judgment about anything, certainly not about guilties. And

207
00:11:59,520 --> 00:12:05,800
Speaker 1: he us was a voracious reader and a voracious learner

208
00:12:05,960 --> 00:12:09,800
Speaker 1: and sought out mentors and got better and better and better.

209
00:12:10,080 --> 00:12:12,199
Speaker 1: And to me, that was really the most striking thing

210
00:12:12,240 --> 00:12:15,120
Speaker 1: about Mark in those days. That's that's fascinating you say

211
00:12:15,200 --> 00:12:18,400
Speaker 1: that because when I sat down with him out in

212
00:12:18,480 --> 00:12:23,920
Speaker 1: Palo Alto to do our conversation, he described Mark Zuckerberg,

213
00:12:24,440 --> 00:12:28,480
Speaker 1: founder and CEO of Facebook, as quote a learning machine

214
00:12:28,960 --> 00:12:31,880
Speaker 1: and pretty much that's how you're describing andrees. And it's

215
00:12:31,920 --> 00:12:36,079
Speaker 1: interesting each of you have described you describing him, him

216
00:12:36,120 --> 00:12:39,760
Speaker 1: describing Zuckerberg more or less in the same way. That's right.

217
00:12:40,240 --> 00:12:43,680
Speaker 1: So so let's talk a little bit about um, the name.

218
00:12:43,760 --> 00:12:48,960
Speaker 1: Where did the name Netscape come from? So the I

219
00:12:49,120 --> 00:12:54,360
Speaker 1: had been keeping a notebook of possible names. I'd led

220
00:12:54,400 --> 00:12:59,440
Speaker 1: brainstorming exercises with the engineering team, and we came up.

221
00:12:59,480 --> 00:13:02,079
Speaker 1: We were just coming up with anything. The company was

222
00:13:02,120 --> 00:13:06,800
Speaker 1: founded as Mosaic Communications. There was saber rattling about trademark

223
00:13:06,840 --> 00:13:10,679
Speaker 1: infringement and lawsuits from from who else, from the University

224
00:13:10,679 --> 00:13:12,719
Speaker 1: of Illinois. So Mark had been at the University of

225
00:13:12,760 --> 00:13:16,559
Speaker 1: Illinois and it created the freeware product Mosaic There gotcha.

226
00:13:16,640 --> 00:13:19,640
Speaker 1: That's that's not an unreasonable claim on their part. I

227
00:13:19,679 --> 00:13:24,319
Speaker 1: agree with that. And so one day I was Jim Clark,

228
00:13:24,360 --> 00:13:26,480
Speaker 1: Mark and Reason and Mike Homer, who was our new

229
00:13:26,600 --> 00:13:29,400
Speaker 1: vice president of marketing, pulled me into Mark's office, which

230
00:13:29,480 --> 00:13:32,600
Speaker 1: was a tiny little office with stacks of paper and

231
00:13:32,640 --> 00:13:35,680
Speaker 1: boxes of honeycombs everywhere, and they said, this is critical.

232
00:13:35,960 --> 00:13:38,319
Speaker 1: We really need to do something about it. And I've

233
00:13:38,400 --> 00:13:40,000
Speaker 1: been working on it. We've all been working on it.

234
00:13:40,080 --> 00:13:42,600
Speaker 1: We had nothing that was any good. And it literally

235
00:13:42,640 --> 00:13:47,600
Speaker 1: just popped into my head that you've the this visual

236
00:13:47,679 --> 00:13:51,640
Speaker 1: view of the Internet and the ability to navigate across it.

237
00:13:51,800 --> 00:13:55,520
Speaker 1: And I said how about Netscape? And everyone looked around

238
00:13:55,559 --> 00:13:57,920
Speaker 1: and they said, yeah, that might be it and we

239
00:13:58,000 --> 00:14:00,440
Speaker 1: walked out of the room and that was it. Bank

240
00:14:00,640 --> 00:14:04,560
Speaker 1: just like that. Yeah, that that's unbelievable. So Netscape goes

241
00:14:04,600 --> 00:14:10,480
Speaker 1: public in nine fourteen months after the company was founded,

242
00:14:11,240 --> 00:14:14,920
Speaker 1: which is an incredibly short period of time. Uh. People

243
00:14:14,920 --> 00:14:17,800
Speaker 1: looked a little askance at it, thinking it was well,

244
00:14:17,840 --> 00:14:20,920
Speaker 1: they have a business model, but look at the valuation.

245
00:14:20,960 --> 00:14:23,840
Speaker 1: It just blew up on I p O. Was there

246
00:14:23,840 --> 00:14:29,360
Speaker 1: any sense in that this was starting to become unhinged,

247
00:14:29,840 --> 00:14:32,480
Speaker 1: or was that still so early days that hey, we

248
00:14:32,560 --> 00:14:34,960
Speaker 1: rang the bell, let's move on to the business of

249
00:14:35,040 --> 00:14:38,000
Speaker 1: running the company. It was really more the ladder, I

250
00:14:38,040 --> 00:14:40,640
Speaker 1: think it was the way I think of it. There

251
00:14:40,640 --> 00:14:43,400
Speaker 1: were kind of two phases of that bubble, and we

252
00:14:43,400 --> 00:14:47,240
Speaker 1: were at the beginning of phase one. So we really

253
00:14:47,280 --> 00:14:49,800
Speaker 1: did have a sense that we were doing something special

254
00:14:49,840 --> 00:14:51,600
Speaker 1: and remarkable, that we were in the right place at

255
00:14:51,640 --> 00:14:56,640
Speaker 1: the right time. And you know, it literally was siege mentality,

256
00:14:56,800 --> 00:14:59,440
Speaker 1: and we were just after it every day, no room

257
00:14:59,520 --> 00:15:01,840
Speaker 1: for rest, no room to think about it, sitting at

258
00:15:01,840 --> 00:15:05,080
Speaker 1: the eye of the hurricane. But the company, if you

259
00:15:05,080 --> 00:15:08,200
Speaker 1: think about it in the context of today's internet companies

260
00:15:08,280 --> 00:15:12,520
Speaker 1: and technology companies, it had an eight billion dollar market cap,

261
00:15:12,560 --> 00:15:14,480
Speaker 1: which is which is a big market cap, a little

262
00:15:14,560 --> 00:15:20,240
Speaker 1: rich but but enormous potential, but enormous potential. It actually

263
00:15:20,280 --> 00:15:24,120
Speaker 1: mainly drifted down, and then at the end the acquisition

264
00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:26,640
Speaker 1: by A. O. L really was about an eight billion

265
00:15:26,680 --> 00:15:30,800
Speaker 1: dollar acquisition, so it did end up getting back to

266
00:15:30,880 --> 00:15:33,720
Speaker 1: that number, but it pretty quickly drifted down after it

267
00:15:33,760 --> 00:15:36,720
Speaker 1: after the early days when you were at Netscape, after

268
00:15:36,800 --> 00:15:39,760
Speaker 1: the I P. O. There was a tremendous amount of

269
00:15:39,840 --> 00:15:43,600
Speaker 1: potential and it looked like, hey, this could be a

270
00:15:43,720 --> 00:15:48,040
Speaker 1: giant company that really brings the Internet forward to the

271
00:15:48,520 --> 00:15:54,760
Speaker 1: twentieth century until the beheamoth from Redmond's Washington named Microsoft,

272
00:15:54,840 --> 00:15:57,760
Speaker 1: said hey, we want a piece of that. When did

273
00:15:57,800 --> 00:16:00,440
Speaker 1: you guys realize that, oh, these guys is are really

274
00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:02,760
Speaker 1: going to put a herd on us. It was about

275
00:16:02,760 --> 00:16:05,360
Speaker 1: a year in. It was about a year in and

276
00:16:05,400 --> 00:16:07,760
Speaker 1: they had started writing a little bit about it, and

277
00:16:07,800 --> 00:16:10,360
Speaker 1: at some point we saw Bill Gates memo on it,

278
00:16:10,440 --> 00:16:13,880
Speaker 1: and then you could really start to see them attempt

279
00:16:14,240 --> 00:16:16,040
Speaker 1: to make a difference. And it took them out about

280
00:16:16,040 --> 00:16:18,400
Speaker 1: another year to warm up. But by the end of

281
00:16:18,560 --> 00:16:22,520
Speaker 1: year two they had gotten their guns trained on us

282
00:16:22,640 --> 00:16:27,040
Speaker 1: and started having a pretty substantial impact on the business.

283
00:16:27,200 --> 00:16:32,960
Speaker 1: What once they built Internet Explorer into Windows. Every piece

284
00:16:33,080 --> 00:16:36,320
Speaker 1: in the world comes with their web browser. Why would

285
00:16:36,320 --> 00:16:41,720
Speaker 1: anyone have to download Navigator? Well, it's particularly challenging if

286
00:16:42,080 --> 00:16:45,600
Speaker 1: Steve Bamber Bill Gates is calling the CEO of your

287
00:16:45,720 --> 00:16:49,920
Speaker 1: hardware manufacturer and telling them if you include Netscape Navigator,

288
00:16:50,240 --> 00:16:54,920
Speaker 1: they'll stop selling you Windows. And hence the subsequent anti

289
00:16:54,960 --> 00:16:59,800
Speaker 1: trust trial which ultimately Netscape. Was there a settlement, Well, yeah,

290
00:16:59,840 --> 00:17:03,480
Speaker 1: there were no Ultimately there there was a settlement. It

291
00:17:03,520 --> 00:17:06,280
Speaker 1: was frankly long. It was two years after the sale

292
00:17:06,280 --> 00:17:08,439
Speaker 1: to a well, so it wasn't fast enough to have

293
00:17:08,520 --> 00:17:12,399
Speaker 1: any useful impacts as old patent litigation and any trust

294
00:17:12,440 --> 00:17:16,680
Speaker 1: litigation tends to be um And then eventually the any

295
00:17:16,680 --> 00:17:20,639
Speaker 1: trust case was settled. And but that created a Cambrian

296
00:17:20,720 --> 00:17:25,360
Speaker 1: explosion of people freed from the oppressive thumb of Microsoft.

297
00:17:25,920 --> 00:17:28,600
Speaker 1: And at the same time you end up going to

298
00:17:28,760 --> 00:17:32,800
Speaker 1: the starting uh as a venture capitalist. What was it

299
00:17:32,880 --> 00:17:36,440
Speaker 1: like in the mid to late nineties when there was

300
00:17:36,480 --> 00:17:38,720
Speaker 1: a lot of cash going to startups and a lot

301
00:17:38,760 --> 00:17:43,280
Speaker 1: of innovation and software and semiconductor and hardware. That was

302
00:17:43,359 --> 00:17:45,399
Speaker 1: really you know, it must have been an amazing period

303
00:17:45,400 --> 00:17:47,520
Speaker 1: of time. It was an amazing period of time. So

304
00:17:47,560 --> 00:17:50,000
Speaker 1: I started in September of ninety eight, so I think

305
00:17:50,000 --> 00:17:52,760
Speaker 1: of that, I think remember the Asian Flu that period

306
00:17:52,760 --> 00:17:54,880
Speaker 1: in there, so that's right when I started. And basically

307
00:17:54,920 --> 00:17:57,320
Speaker 1: coming out of the Asian Flu was phase two of

308
00:17:57,359 --> 00:18:00,600
Speaker 1: the bubble, which is about ten x on phase one

309
00:18:00,640 --> 00:18:04,080
Speaker 1: of the bubble, and it really was quite insane. And

310
00:18:04,440 --> 00:18:07,040
Speaker 1: did you realize you were in a bubble in real time,

311
00:18:07,040 --> 00:18:09,840
Speaker 1: because everybody says, well, you know, you can only identify

312
00:18:09,880 --> 00:18:12,400
Speaker 1: it after the fact, but you're right in the thick

313
00:18:12,440 --> 00:18:15,000
Speaker 1: of it is are people looking around and saying, hey,

314
00:18:15,040 --> 00:18:20,560
Speaker 1: we've valuations have become unhinged from reality. In nine and

315
00:18:20,680 --> 00:18:23,800
Speaker 1: early two thousand, I think it was pretty clear. And

316
00:18:23,920 --> 00:18:26,399
Speaker 1: so you know, one of my I was sitting with

317
00:18:26,440 --> 00:18:29,000
Speaker 1: a very experienced group of investors and we were just

318
00:18:29,040 --> 00:18:31,760
Speaker 1: looking at a whole bunch of things where you'd say,

319
00:18:32,200 --> 00:18:34,199
Speaker 1: you know, we're not gonna We're just not gonna do it.

320
00:18:34,240 --> 00:18:36,560
Speaker 1: We're not going to touch it if it goes into

321
00:18:36,600 --> 00:18:39,840
Speaker 1: those into those kind of categories. But it's still the

322
00:18:39,880 --> 00:18:43,760
Speaker 1: case that I can think of one specific example where

323
00:18:43,800 --> 00:18:47,480
Speaker 1: someone was offering US fifty million dollars for a company,

324
00:18:47,520 --> 00:18:50,520
Speaker 1: which was an irrationally high price, but that but the

325
00:18:50,560 --> 00:18:54,640
Speaker 1: comps were much higher. In the end, the company turned

326
00:18:54,640 --> 00:18:57,239
Speaker 1: down the acquisition and it, you know, ended up being

327
00:18:57,280 --> 00:19:00,240
Speaker 1: worth less than a hundred million dollars. Regretted, regretted not

328
00:19:00,359 --> 00:19:02,639
Speaker 1: selling into the bubble. That's right. So there's one of

329
00:19:02,680 --> 00:19:04,879
Speaker 1: the one of the legends of the of the venture

330
00:19:04,920 --> 00:19:10,600
Speaker 1: capital industry. When the bubble finally blew up, said basically,

331
00:19:11,040 --> 00:19:13,400
Speaker 1: you know, thank God had ended, because I was just

332
00:19:13,520 --> 00:19:16,600
Speaker 1: holding on to my principles, like I was just about

333
00:19:16,640 --> 00:19:19,520
Speaker 1: to let go. I couldn't hold on anymore that that

334
00:19:19,960 --> 00:19:24,359
Speaker 1: crowd enthusiasm. It's really easy to get swept up, both

335
00:19:24,400 --> 00:19:28,480
Speaker 1: positively and negatively. When the crowd is surging. It's it's

336
00:19:28,600 --> 00:19:32,760
Speaker 1: a siren call that is really difficult to resist. And

337
00:19:32,800 --> 00:19:36,679
Speaker 1: it sounds like you successfully navigated that. I think it's

338
00:19:36,720 --> 00:19:39,960
Speaker 1: an overstatement to say I said, well, so I you know,

339
00:19:40,040 --> 00:19:42,840
Speaker 1: I was the new guy, and so you were a

340
00:19:42,840 --> 00:19:45,160
Speaker 1: little cautious to begin with. Well, no, I would say

341
00:19:45,160 --> 00:19:47,159
Speaker 1: that I was the new guy, so I was unencumbered.

342
00:19:47,160 --> 00:19:49,600
Speaker 1: I mean, the venture capitalist is most dangerous when they

343
00:19:49,600 --> 00:19:52,919
Speaker 1: start because you don't know very much and you've got

344
00:19:52,960 --> 00:19:55,200
Speaker 1: a clean slate. You're not sitting on ten boards already.

345
00:19:55,600 --> 00:19:57,200
Speaker 1: And I was the guy who knew the internet stack,

346
00:19:57,320 --> 00:20:00,760
Speaker 1: so I wasn't doing crazy consumer internet things. It's still

347
00:20:00,800 --> 00:20:05,080
Speaker 1: I made I went too quickly. I made nine effectively

348
00:20:05,119 --> 00:20:08,280
Speaker 1: pre revenue venture capital investments over an eighteen month period.

349
00:20:08,320 --> 00:20:12,720
Speaker 1: Early seed, very early stage. Yeah. Uh, you know in

350
00:20:12,840 --> 00:20:15,720
Speaker 1: ninety nine there wasn't anything called the seed financing, so

351
00:20:15,760 --> 00:20:18,919
Speaker 1: they were you know, Series eight financings and formation just

352
00:20:19,080 --> 00:20:21,880
Speaker 1: very early. That's right. And so in Quinn Street, which

353
00:20:21,920 --> 00:20:23,720
Speaker 1: is now a public company with three hundred million dollars

354
00:20:23,720 --> 00:20:26,000
Speaker 1: in revenue, was the one that paid for the other eight.

355
00:20:26,160 --> 00:20:28,479
Speaker 1: I have to ask you, Coast to Noah, there's nobody

356
00:20:28,520 --> 00:20:31,840
Speaker 1: on your team page named Coasta Noah Where And I

357
00:20:31,960 --> 00:20:35,720
Speaker 1: keep mangling unfortunately the name Where does the name Coasta

358
00:20:35,720 --> 00:20:38,399
Speaker 1: Noah come from? So the Coast Sinowans are the Native

359
00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:41,320
Speaker 1: American tribe that occupied from Big Sir all the way

360
00:20:41,359 --> 00:20:43,840
Speaker 1: to the tip of the San Francisco Peninsula. And so

361
00:20:43,920 --> 00:20:47,600
Speaker 1: it's a way of uh sort of situating both in

362
00:20:47,720 --> 00:20:53,000
Speaker 1: place and also I think recognizing that, uh, the development

363
00:20:53,040 --> 00:20:57,239
Speaker 1: of Silicon Valley is has layers and is built on

364
00:20:57,280 --> 00:21:00,119
Speaker 1: the shoulders of giants. So we try to on are

365
00:21:00,359 --> 00:21:03,000
Speaker 1: the old school craft of the past as well as

366
00:21:03,000 --> 00:21:06,080
Speaker 1: having some ways in which we're uh modern and innovating.

367
00:21:06,520 --> 00:21:09,040
Speaker 1: So one of the things we always hear about early

368
00:21:09,160 --> 00:21:13,080
Speaker 1: mover advantages it's the second mass that gets the cheese.

369
00:21:13,400 --> 00:21:16,399
Speaker 1: How accurate is that? Is there a big advantage to

370
00:21:16,480 --> 00:21:21,199
Speaker 1: being first or is timing more important? So the answer,

371
00:21:21,359 --> 00:21:24,240
Speaker 1: as in most things that involve investing, is it depends

372
00:21:25,040 --> 00:21:27,560
Speaker 1: but I and so there are many examples of each.

373
00:21:28,280 --> 00:21:30,720
Speaker 1: I do think it's the case that, you know, one

374
00:21:30,720 --> 00:21:33,359
Speaker 1: of the things, you know, we in investing companies that

375
00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:35,320
Speaker 1: change the way the world does business, but we are

376
00:21:35,400 --> 00:21:38,720
Speaker 1: trying to focus on things that have platform capabilities that

377
00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:41,800
Speaker 1: can build ecosystems. And I do think it is the

378
00:21:41,800 --> 00:21:46,000
Speaker 1: case that when you're talking about platforms, it is often

379
00:21:46,040 --> 00:21:49,640
Speaker 1: the case that the first mover to be in market

380
00:21:49,960 --> 00:21:54,160
Speaker 1: and start attracting users and the data that comes with

381
00:21:54,200 --> 00:21:57,359
Speaker 1: it and the applications that get built on top of

382
00:21:57,359 --> 00:22:00,399
Speaker 1: it really does have a significant advantage. So you say

383
00:22:00,560 --> 00:22:03,159
Speaker 1: you want to invest in companies that can change the

384
00:22:03,200 --> 00:22:07,119
Speaker 1: world's of business, in what way? How can a startup

385
00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:11,360
Speaker 1: or an early venture funded entity really have an impact

386
00:22:11,440 --> 00:22:15,199
Speaker 1: on the giant world of business. It's amazing, actually the

387
00:22:15,280 --> 00:22:18,600
Speaker 1: impact that they can have. So, for example, all companies

388
00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:22,280
Speaker 1: that sell the businesses use a form of account based marketing.

389
00:22:22,280 --> 00:22:25,320
Speaker 1: You sell the companies, not to individuals. And on the

390
00:22:25,320 --> 00:22:27,840
Speaker 1: other hand, there wasn't really any way to do that

391
00:22:27,920 --> 00:22:31,920
Speaker 1: in the context of online or digital advertising. So demand Base,

392
00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:35,359
Speaker 1: which is a portfolio company, basically identified a way of

393
00:22:35,640 --> 00:22:38,719
Speaker 1: matching those two pieces of data together and by the

394
00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:42,320
Speaker 1: time they got distributed to hundreds of companies using it,

395
00:22:42,320 --> 00:22:44,760
Speaker 1: it is a self refreshing data advantage. And it is

396
00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:48,280
Speaker 1: now the platform for account based marketing. And there you know,

397
00:22:48,320 --> 00:22:51,600
Speaker 1: Google isn't doing it, Facebook isn't doing it, Salesforce isn't

398
00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:54,560
Speaker 1: doing it, Adobe isn't doing it, Oracle isn't doing it.

399
00:22:54,880 --> 00:22:57,080
Speaker 1: And so it really is the case that you can

400
00:22:57,119 --> 00:23:00,040
Speaker 1: sometimes take this kernel of an insight and turn it

401
00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:02,840
Speaker 1: into something really special. Would would we call that middlewhere

402
00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:06,160
Speaker 1: how would you describe what they all know? I would

403
00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:08,280
Speaker 1: call it a I would call it a business to

404
00:23:08,359 --> 00:23:12,840
Speaker 1: business marketing application for account based marketing. That that's quite fascinating.

405
00:23:13,040 --> 00:23:15,399
Speaker 1: Tell us about some other types of companies that you

406
00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:18,600
Speaker 1: invest in. Well, so there's another one. We're here at

407
00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:22,720
Speaker 1: Bloomberg and Elation is an enterprise data catalog for data

408
00:23:22,800 --> 00:23:26,880
Speaker 1: driven companies. And the problem is that end users, people

409
00:23:26,920 --> 00:23:30,880
Speaker 1: who are analytic in nature, spend hours, dozens of hours,

410
00:23:31,280 --> 00:23:33,600
Speaker 1: sometimes a third of their time looking for the right

411
00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:36,080
Speaker 1: data and trying to understand what it means before they

412
00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:38,879
Speaker 1: can do any analysis. And so Elation is a company

413
00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:42,960
Speaker 1: that we incubated from scratch, and it basically helps those

414
00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:45,159
Speaker 1: end users find what they're looking for and understand what

415
00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:48,439
Speaker 1: it means. And this is an example of something that

416
00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:50,760
Speaker 1: comes out of ten years of research of looking at

417
00:23:50,760 --> 00:23:53,480
Speaker 1: a field called master data management that I would argue

418
00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:57,720
Speaker 1: fundamentally doesn't really work. Master data management, that's right, which

419
00:23:57,760 --> 00:24:00,480
Speaker 1: is where the idea was, the human are going to

420
00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:03,679
Speaker 1: document all the data and write down what it means.

421
00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:06,000
Speaker 1: And it turns out that this is a place where

422
00:24:06,280 --> 00:24:11,000
Speaker 1: the dawn of artificial intelligence combined with humans is able

423
00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:13,760
Speaker 1: to do something that humans alone couldn't do. And as

424
00:24:13,800 --> 00:24:18,240
Speaker 1: a result, it's incredibly useful for companies like eBay and

425
00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:22,640
Speaker 1: uh and other large enterprises who have masses of data

426
00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:25,160
Speaker 1: that the end user can't possibly get their arms around.

427
00:24:25,560 --> 00:24:29,439
Speaker 1: That's interesting. So let's talk a little bit about not

428
00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:34,119
Speaker 1: the investing aspect of it, but the business of venture

429
00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:38,080
Speaker 1: capital investing. You've just raised is it the third fund?

430
00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:41,480
Speaker 1: Third fund? Right? So first to the lay person, why

431
00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:44,080
Speaker 1: do we keep rolling out different funds if it's the

432
00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:47,760
Speaker 1: same group of people investing in the same types of technology,

433
00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:51,040
Speaker 1: What what's the thinking behind this vintage, that vintage and

434
00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:56,080
Speaker 1: the following So it really is a result of the

435
00:24:56,560 --> 00:25:00,000
Speaker 1: fact that limited partners so investors, which are often endowed

436
00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:03,720
Speaker 1: ments are large financial institutions want to ensure alignment of

437
00:25:03,760 --> 00:25:07,560
Speaker 1: interests and no conflict of interests, so they generally tend

438
00:25:07,920 --> 00:25:10,480
Speaker 1: to say, hey, we'll make an investment decision up front,

439
00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:12,639
Speaker 1: and then you invest in a group of companies and

440
00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:14,960
Speaker 1: support those group of companies all out of one pool

441
00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:18,720
Speaker 1: of capital, and five years later, when you're investing in

442
00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:21,919
Speaker 1: another group of companies, keep those companies together so that

443
00:25:21,960 --> 00:25:24,399
Speaker 1: you don't use somebody else's money to bail out a

444
00:25:24,400 --> 00:25:27,879
Speaker 1: bad investment earlier. Vintage makes sense, makes a lot of sense.

445
00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:33,000
Speaker 1: So you're running three funds um simultaneously. Some are fully invested.

446
00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:35,520
Speaker 1: How how long does it take? So here it is

447
00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:38,639
Speaker 1: let's let's say a new fund launch is January one?

448
00:25:40,119 --> 00:25:43,440
Speaker 1: How long and it's a hundred million dollars? How long

449
00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:46,320
Speaker 1: will it take to deploy that hundred million dollars? And

450
00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:50,120
Speaker 1: you're fully invested. So the way it works is typically

451
00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:52,720
Speaker 1: in the next three years, will make all the new

452
00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:56,399
Speaker 1: commitments to companies three years three years. So over that

453
00:25:56,480 --> 00:26:01,320
Speaker 1: period of time we will invest in something like seventeen

454
00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:05,479
Speaker 1: or eighteen companies, and of that maybe of the capital

455
00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:08,119
Speaker 1: will be called and already invested in those companies, but

456
00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:12,280
Speaker 1: six will be reserved for follow on rounds in those companies.

457
00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:14,720
Speaker 1: Let me take apart those let's unpack those numbers a

458
00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:19,040
Speaker 1: little bit. So eighteen companies over thirty six months. That

459
00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:23,520
Speaker 1: means essentially you're deciding on a company every other month.

460
00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:26,399
Speaker 1: Is it that spread out or is it a little

461
00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:32,000
Speaker 1: more bunched together? What's the process like to manage? All Right,

462
00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:34,359
Speaker 1: we're making this decision, we're ending this company. How do

463
00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:37,240
Speaker 1: you paste that? How do you source that? First? We've

464
00:26:37,280 --> 00:26:40,440
Speaker 1: got a team of five person investment team and we

465
00:26:41,119 --> 00:26:44,479
Speaker 1: basically work as a team to attack our most important

466
00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:48,480
Speaker 1: opportunities and talk to customers and prospects, talk to technologists

467
00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:52,000
Speaker 1: to do technical due diligence, spend lots of time talking

468
00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:54,800
Speaker 1: to founders to see how they think because so much

469
00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:58,400
Speaker 1: is unknown that you're fundamentally investing in people and products.

470
00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:02,480
Speaker 1: And I've heard that repeatedly. Is we're not buying technologies,

471
00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:06,000
Speaker 1: We're buying a founder. We're investing in a founder and

472
00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:09,520
Speaker 1: their vision. Is that a fair descriptor? Or are you

473
00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:12,840
Speaker 1: buying technology? Are you investing in new technologies? I would

474
00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:19,080
Speaker 1: say we're investing in the founder's vision. And ability to think.

475
00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:21,480
Speaker 1: And that's the part that I think people don't really

476
00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:25,080
Speaker 1: talk about because there are all of these. To me,

477
00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:28,560
Speaker 1: the thing that people think of founders as I want

478
00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:30,639
Speaker 1: Steve Jobs, and he's going to be right a hundred

479
00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:32,919
Speaker 1: percent of the time over the next twenty years. And

480
00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:35,400
Speaker 1: I'm just back in his vision. And what we look

481
00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:38,480
Speaker 1: at is I want Steve Jobs who doesn't have reality

482
00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:42,119
Speaker 1: distortion field. I want Steve Jobs who is completely immersed

483
00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:46,480
Speaker 1: in reality, who has situational awareness, who knows what is possible,

484
00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:51,879
Speaker 1: who knows what market needs and can navigate assemble to

485
00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:56,560
Speaker 1: pieces and get themselves to the right spot. You mentioned

486
00:27:56,560 --> 00:27:59,080
Speaker 1: when you were at Sutter Hill you did nine investments

487
00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:02,600
Speaker 1: right away. One of them was really successful, paid for

488
00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:06,680
Speaker 1: the other eight ones not so successful. In general, what

489
00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:11,680
Speaker 1: do the statistics look like of a hundred investments um

490
00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:14,480
Speaker 1: that are made. How many of your losers, how many

491
00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:17,000
Speaker 1: break events, how many of your minor winners, and how

492
00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:20,400
Speaker 1: many are the you know, unfathomable home runs that pay

493
00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:23,000
Speaker 1: for the previous nine nine and then some Well, so

494
00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:25,040
Speaker 1: I can only talk about my experience, which I think

495
00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:27,920
Speaker 1: is frankly different than the industry as a whole, which

496
00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:30,520
Speaker 1: is another question why, but we'll get to that. Yeah.

497
00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:35,120
Speaker 1: So in my experience, I'd say one out of ten

498
00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:38,840
Speaker 1: are great winners, meaning ten times your money or better

499
00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:41,800
Speaker 1: ten x wow. Yeah, so on one out of ten,

500
00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:45,480
Speaker 1: and then it really is the case that about uh,

501
00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:50,880
Speaker 1: I'd say, uh, two thirds end up being winners of

502
00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:56,080
Speaker 1: some you know, of some material variety meaning you know, yes,

503
00:28:56,320 --> 00:28:58,600
Speaker 1: you two x to you know, four or five x,

504
00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:00,760
Speaker 1: which doesn't make a venture capital, but it's better than

505
00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:04,360
Speaker 1: a stick in the eye. And uh. And then out

506
00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:07,160
Speaker 1: of you know, out of ten, you'll have to where

507
00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:09,880
Speaker 1: you get your money back and one where you write

508
00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:11,880
Speaker 1: it off. And that is very different than the industry is.

509
00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:14,640
Speaker 1: I was gonna say, mine, you tell me if my

510
00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:18,840
Speaker 1: understanding is wrong. That or outright money losers, and the

511
00:29:18,880 --> 00:29:23,000
Speaker 1: next or break evens, and then some more do one x,

512
00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:26,120
Speaker 1: two x, three x, and then there's that one home

513
00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:28,600
Speaker 1: run that pays for everything, and then some that that

514
00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:31,960
Speaker 1: a fair assessment of the industry as a whole. I

515
00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:38,200
Speaker 1: think that's right. The reasons are one that the consumer business,

516
00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:41,080
Speaker 1: which we don't really do, is much more volatile, is

517
00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:43,360
Speaker 1: not only a hits business, but it's also a luck

518
00:29:43,400 --> 00:29:46,760
Speaker 1: business that you know, a great team assembled on a

519
00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:50,200
Speaker 1: validated problem in the business to business world can usually

520
00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:54,120
Speaker 1: figure something out right, So so that's certainly one I think.

521
00:29:54,160 --> 00:29:57,680
Speaker 1: The second is we're as early stage investors were all

522
00:29:57,760 --> 00:30:01,320
Speaker 1: former product managers. We think like product people, so we're

523
00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:05,320
Speaker 1: used to doing Uh. It isn't just a hey, let's

524
00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:08,160
Speaker 1: take a flyer on this. We're asking the same questions

525
00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:11,600
Speaker 1: that the founder should be asking his or herself, which

526
00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:14,040
Speaker 1: is what the customers care about. Is this a big

527
00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:17,400
Speaker 1: enough problem to be worth addressing? Do the set of

528
00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:21,000
Speaker 1: technologies that are available at this time can we actually

529
00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:24,479
Speaker 1: solve this problem in a meaningful way. If so, how

530
00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:27,200
Speaker 1: much is it worth to a customer? And you know

531
00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:30,600
Speaker 1: so because we both make that set of assessments in

532
00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:33,280
Speaker 1: a really nuanced way up front. And then we've got

533
00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:36,960
Speaker 1: an operating team that helps these typically product oriented founders

534
00:30:37,240 --> 00:30:40,080
Speaker 1: build the sales and marketing and commercial infrastructure that they

535
00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:43,560
Speaker 1: need for their product, their customer, their price point, their market.

536
00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:46,440
Speaker 1: We think that we have higher ods of success. That's

537
00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:49,960
Speaker 1: really fascinating. We have been speaking with Greg Stands of

538
00:30:50,080 --> 00:30:53,760
Speaker 1: cost to Noah Ventures. If you enjoy this conversation, be

539
00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:56,200
Speaker 1: sure and check out the podcast extras where we keep

540
00:30:56,200 --> 00:31:00,600
Speaker 1: the tape rolling and continue discussing all things venture capital investing.

541
00:31:01,120 --> 00:31:04,719
Speaker 1: You can find all the podcast extras wherever fine podcasts

542
00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:09,800
Speaker 1: are sold Apple iTunes, Overcast, SoundCloud, or Bloomberg dot com.

543
00:31:09,920 --> 00:31:12,720
Speaker 1: Be sure and check out my daily column on Bloomberg

544
00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:15,640
Speaker 1: View dot com. You can follow me on Twitter at

545
00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:20,360
Speaker 1: rit Halts. We love your comments, feedback and suggestions right

546
00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:24,040
Speaker 1: to us at m IB podcast at Bloomberg dot net.

547
00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:27,479
Speaker 1: I'm Barry rid Holts. You're listening to Masters in Business

548
00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:43,880
Speaker 1: on Bloomberg Radio. Welcome to the podcast. I don't know

549
00:31:43,880 --> 00:31:46,200
Speaker 1: why I do that every week. I just it's I

550
00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:48,440
Speaker 1: like this part of stuff. Greg. Thank you so much

551
00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:51,080
Speaker 1: for doing this. I've been I've been looking forward to

552
00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:54,120
Speaker 1: doing this. And you know what I forgot to say earlier,

553
00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:59,400
Speaker 1: I'll say it here just for um completing its completeness

554
00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:03,360
Speaker 1: is say um, my disclosure is we have a mutual

555
00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:08,200
Speaker 1: friends who is a senior executive at Dimensional Fund Advisors,

556
00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:12,720
Speaker 1: And my disclosure is I'm an investor in d f

557
00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:15,920
Speaker 1: A funds. My client clients over healths wealth management investing

558
00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:18,960
Speaker 1: their funds. And I probably should have said that during broadcast.

559
00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:20,320
Speaker 1: I don't know if I want to move that back

560
00:32:20,360 --> 00:32:23,440
Speaker 1: there or not. But there's the disclosure. Although I make

561
00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:27,280
Speaker 1: no um that that's fairly well known and fairly public.

562
00:32:27,600 --> 00:32:31,440
Speaker 1: But we met through someone from dimensional and I always

563
00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:35,520
Speaker 1: feel better disclosing more rather than less. Let's let's keep

564
00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:39,320
Speaker 1: talking about venture investing because some of the questions we

565
00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:43,440
Speaker 1: didn't get to I think are really interesting. Starting with

566
00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:48,920
Speaker 1: you reference luck on the consumer side, the question I

567
00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:52,080
Speaker 1: have is how important is luck across the board the

568
00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:55,800
Speaker 1: board when it comes to technology or venture investing. Is

569
00:32:56,160 --> 00:33:02,720
Speaker 1: serendipity all that important? Or is it more rigorous? And

570
00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:08,600
Speaker 1: here's our process and here's the outcome and randomness doesn't matter. Uh,

571
00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:10,400
Speaker 1: You're both are true. I mean, look, look place a

572
00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:13,240
Speaker 1: huge role. It would be completely disingenuous to say that

573
00:33:13,280 --> 00:33:17,760
Speaker 1: it doesn't. I do think that it has a uh

574
00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:23,120
Speaker 1: that there's an element of you put yourself in lucky places, right,

575
00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:25,080
Speaker 1: and so you navigate to those and you think you

576
00:33:25,120 --> 00:33:26,760
Speaker 1: way through them, and you work with the best people

577
00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:29,120
Speaker 1: that you can so you can increase your odds of

578
00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:33,120
Speaker 1: getting lucky. Is that what it's probability plus randomness that

579
00:33:34,120 --> 00:33:39,160
Speaker 1: that's really interested? And I wanted to ask you about, um,

580
00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:42,760
Speaker 1: some of the companies. We talked about the success ratio.

581
00:33:43,120 --> 00:33:44,800
Speaker 1: I want to ask you about some of the companies

582
00:33:44,800 --> 00:33:47,920
Speaker 1: that got away and what you learned about that, and

583
00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:50,640
Speaker 1: some of the companies that maybe this wasn't a great investment.

584
00:33:50,720 --> 00:33:53,520
Speaker 1: So so let's start with the first one. And the

585
00:33:53,560 --> 00:33:57,120
Speaker 1: reason this question came to mind is a number of

586
00:33:57,200 --> 00:34:00,920
Speaker 1: venture firms have a page on their site where, hey,

587
00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:04,360
Speaker 1: we missed this opportunity to invest in Uber. We could

588
00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:06,480
Speaker 1: have been an early investor in Amazon. We said no,

589
00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:09,719
Speaker 1: it's almost like a badge of honor that hey, here's

590
00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:12,200
Speaker 1: our process. It doesn't lead us here, but we stick

591
00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:14,839
Speaker 1: to the process, and and here's how it didn't work out.

592
00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:18,000
Speaker 1: Any stories along those lines, anybody, Yeah, well, this is

593
00:34:18,200 --> 00:34:23,960
Speaker 1: this This is a inauspicious time to note that Fred

594
00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:28,000
Speaker 1: Wilson introduced me to Mango dB for its Series A financing.

595
00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:31,719
Speaker 1: Mango dB went public yesterday. I think Dwight Merriment is

596
00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:37,000
Speaker 1: an extraordinary founder and technologist. Uh. It was based in

597
00:34:37,040 --> 00:34:41,160
Speaker 1: New York. Uh, there was no sort of business partner

598
00:34:41,200 --> 00:34:44,000
Speaker 1: or commercial partner with him at that time. And it's

599
00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:46,000
Speaker 1: an and and it's an open source company, and it

600
00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:50,800
Speaker 1: is you know, open source doesn't monetize as well as

601
00:34:51,040 --> 00:34:53,480
Speaker 1: what you would think of, as you know, proprietary software,

602
00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:57,480
Speaker 1: and so it has the category has to take off

603
00:34:57,520 --> 00:35:00,400
Speaker 1: and be incredibly important, which no sequel has, and you

604
00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:03,520
Speaker 1: have to win. You can't be number two. And so

605
00:35:03,600 --> 00:35:06,480
Speaker 1: in the end, I you know, for me, the thing

606
00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:08,640
Speaker 1: that I that I learned from that is when you

607
00:35:08,719 --> 00:35:12,919
Speaker 1: have a uh an anchor founder who is a great

608
00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:17,480
Speaker 1: technologist and a pied piper for other technical talent, that

609
00:35:17,520 --> 00:35:20,840
Speaker 1: those can be really interesting opportunities. There will be a

610
00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:23,880
Speaker 1: question over time of how you graft the sales and

611
00:35:23,920 --> 00:35:27,120
Speaker 1: marketing and business leadership into the company, but that can

612
00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:29,279
Speaker 1: be a very good formula. And that's one that I

613
00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:33,720
Speaker 1: missed and I would have imagined that you know, between

614
00:35:33,760 --> 00:35:36,560
Speaker 1: Oracle and Microsoft, isn't that like a giant, and then

615
00:35:36,600 --> 00:35:40,359
Speaker 1: you throw in salesforce. Beyond that is then the of

616
00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:43,320
Speaker 1: the database market or am I naive about that? Oracle

617
00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:47,359
Speaker 1: itself is the database market. So so you're running into

618
00:35:47,360 --> 00:35:50,960
Speaker 1: a monopoly. But that is sequel, which is basically a

619
00:35:51,040 --> 00:35:54,680
Speaker 1: very heavy weight UH database. I nine, I I don't

620
00:35:54,719 --> 00:35:56,720
Speaker 1: even know what we're up to, probably eleven and right.

621
00:35:56,760 --> 00:35:59,320
Speaker 1: But then in the in the world of no sequel,

622
00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:02,400
Speaker 1: and then loop, which is cloud Era and her works

623
00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:07,439
Speaker 1: and the like. There's been an explosion of lighter weight

624
00:36:07,520 --> 00:36:11,080
Speaker 1: databases to manage less structured data and so that that

625
00:36:11,160 --> 00:36:14,839
Speaker 1: has been a really important megatrend and they were on

626
00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:17,040
Speaker 1: the front edge of it, and that was So the

627
00:36:17,120 --> 00:36:20,399
Speaker 1: question is what was the takeaway? Was anytime there's a fail,

628
00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:23,319
Speaker 1: I always want to say personally or anyone else, So

629
00:36:23,360 --> 00:36:24,920
Speaker 1: what was the lesson from that? What? What did you

630
00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:29,400
Speaker 1: take away from that? One got away? I think it

631
00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:35,560
Speaker 1: is this idea that, particularly in the infrastructure category, that

632
00:36:35,560 --> 00:36:41,000
Speaker 1: that building the entire company around a great technologist as

633
00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:44,880
Speaker 1: a is a can be a really important way to

634
00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:46,719
Speaker 1: build those companies. So I think the model that I

635
00:36:46,760 --> 00:36:49,240
Speaker 1: grew up in is you build company around great CEO,

636
00:36:50,080 --> 00:36:52,239
Speaker 1: and so I think the the the idea that you

637
00:36:52,239 --> 00:36:55,480
Speaker 1: can build around great technologists and graft on that business

638
00:36:55,560 --> 00:37:02,480
Speaker 1: leadership over time because in an incredible technology infrastructure categories

639
00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:06,160
Speaker 1: tend to be driven more by technology than by uh

640
00:37:06,360 --> 00:37:11,160
Speaker 1: than by you know, relationship to to customer. I may

641
00:37:11,160 --> 00:37:13,759
Speaker 1: be quoting and reason I'm not sure where this came from.

642
00:37:14,640 --> 00:37:18,680
Speaker 1: Actually it is injuries and it's you could possibly teach

643
00:37:18,719 --> 00:37:22,960
Speaker 1: a technologist the CEO and related business skills. But it's

644
00:37:22,960 --> 00:37:28,680
Speaker 1: all but impossible to teach a CEO that technology visionary insight,

645
00:37:28,920 --> 00:37:32,319
Speaker 1: that that is something that you have and can't learn.

646
00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:36,520
Speaker 1: But hey, many good technologists can learn the business side

647
00:37:36,560 --> 00:37:40,719
Speaker 1: of it. And I'm slightly mangling that, but but absolutely

648
00:37:40,719 --> 00:37:42,799
Speaker 1: Mark Mark is absolutely on record on that, and I

649
00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:47,279
Speaker 1: would I would actually, uh for for my purposes and

650
00:37:47,280 --> 00:37:52,120
Speaker 1: our purposes, i'd actually so there are a few Jensen

651
00:37:52,200 --> 00:37:56,480
Speaker 1: Wongs from Nvidia, but there aren't that many either. And ultimately,

652
00:37:56,880 --> 00:37:59,920
Speaker 1: you know, a technologist to remain CEO needs to go

653
00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:03,279
Speaker 1: a boot camp on sales, boot camp on marketing, needs

654
00:38:03,320 --> 00:38:07,600
Speaker 1: to own those and off and so ultimately the you know,

655
00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:09,360
Speaker 1: this is what I talk when I talk about grafting

656
00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:12,160
Speaker 1: those on. They need to know who to hire and

657
00:38:12,200 --> 00:38:15,279
Speaker 1: how to manage them, and so they can, Yes, they

658
00:38:15,280 --> 00:38:17,279
Speaker 1: can often learn it, but they've got to be a

659
00:38:17,360 --> 00:38:21,120
Speaker 1: learning machine like Mark himself was, or like Mark Starberg was,

660
00:38:21,520 --> 00:38:25,279
Speaker 1: and some will end up, uh, you know, some will

661
00:38:25,360 --> 00:38:28,920
Speaker 1: end up doing that, and some will end up, you know,

662
00:38:28,960 --> 00:38:32,600
Speaker 1: not succeeding in learning all of all of those skills

663
00:38:32,600 --> 00:38:34,839
Speaker 1: and will need a partner in another form. And what

664
00:38:34,880 --> 00:38:38,960
Speaker 1: we try to be is is a UM is a

665
00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:41,880
Speaker 1: great long term partner that helps them understand where they

666
00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:45,040
Speaker 1: are and understand where they need to be in order

667
00:38:45,080 --> 00:38:47,600
Speaker 1: to lead the company. I guess I have to go

668
00:38:47,600 --> 00:38:50,439
Speaker 1: to boot camp myself. Then, UM, let's talk a little

669
00:38:50,440 --> 00:38:54,640
Speaker 1: bit about the space. Venture capital and private equity both

670
00:38:54,680 --> 00:38:58,239
Speaker 1: seem to be pretty competitive, attracting a lot of UM

671
00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:03,200
Speaker 1: new and expanded UH players in the space. How competitive

672
00:39:03,400 --> 00:39:07,760
Speaker 1: is venture investing these days? Well, it's highly competitive, but honestly,

673
00:39:07,800 --> 00:39:11,160
Speaker 1: it's always been highly competitive. So people will say, oh,

674
00:39:11,200 --> 00:39:13,799
Speaker 1: there's too much money slashing around and then like and

675
00:39:13,960 --> 00:39:17,560
Speaker 1: my my view is everybody always thinks there's too much

676
00:39:17,640 --> 00:39:19,600
Speaker 1: money in their own asset class. Welcome to life in

677
00:39:19,640 --> 00:39:23,440
Speaker 1: perfect competition, right, So that that kind of leads to

678
00:39:23,440 --> 00:39:26,440
Speaker 1: my next question. You guys really are an early a

679
00:39:26,840 --> 00:39:30,520
Speaker 1: or seed investor, meaning you're looking at technologies when they're

680
00:39:30,560 --> 00:39:34,040
Speaker 1: still very new, when the companies are still very new. UM,

681
00:39:34,200 --> 00:39:36,480
Speaker 1: there may or may not be any sort of revenue

682
00:39:36,560 --> 00:39:40,680
Speaker 1: yet why that space and does that provide you guys

683
00:39:40,680 --> 00:39:44,600
Speaker 1: with any sort of advantage over some of your peers? Absolutely?

684
00:39:44,960 --> 00:39:47,640
Speaker 1: The I mean the two reasons to be an early

685
00:39:47,719 --> 00:39:50,919
Speaker 1: stage investor from a sort of financial or strategy point

686
00:39:50,920 --> 00:39:55,279
Speaker 1: of view, are fundamentally about ownership, you know, being able

687
00:39:55,320 --> 00:39:58,640
Speaker 1: to buy you know, big chunks of companies, and about

688
00:39:58,719 --> 00:40:02,120
Speaker 1: multiples of capital. And so it isn't a category where

689
00:40:02,160 --> 00:40:04,919
Speaker 1: you can invest very much money, where you can raise

690
00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:07,680
Speaker 1: really big funds, where you can have enormous fee income,

691
00:40:08,160 --> 00:40:09,920
Speaker 1: but it is the place where you can earn the

692
00:40:09,920 --> 00:40:12,399
Speaker 1: biggest multiples of the capital. Now, I will also point

693
00:40:12,440 --> 00:40:17,200
Speaker 1: out that personally, the reason why I'm an early stage

694
00:40:17,239 --> 00:40:20,440
Speaker 1: investor is because that's what I love doing. That's the

695
00:40:20,520 --> 00:40:23,040
Speaker 1: time in the company's life that I'm most interested in.

696
00:40:23,440 --> 00:40:26,239
Speaker 1: That it's the time where you build the foundational relationship

697
00:40:26,280 --> 00:40:29,719
Speaker 1: with partners, that helping them navigate through this process of

698
00:40:29,840 --> 00:40:32,759
Speaker 1: launching first product and great use old three of them. Now,

699
00:40:32,800 --> 00:40:35,239
Speaker 1: who do we hire? Who else can possibly sell this?

700
00:40:35,360 --> 00:40:37,279
Speaker 1: And what does that person look like? And how do

701
00:40:37,360 --> 00:40:39,759
Speaker 1: we go do it? That's the most fun that there

702
00:40:39,840 --> 00:40:43,279
Speaker 1: is in business. So how intimately are you involved with

703
00:40:43,320 --> 00:40:46,520
Speaker 1: the companies once you found them? It's not here's a check,

704
00:40:46,560 --> 00:40:49,600
Speaker 1: we'll we'll follow up with you every quarter. You're much

705
00:40:49,640 --> 00:40:55,160
Speaker 1: more hands on. So yes, unequivocally, founders and management teams

706
00:40:55,160 --> 00:40:57,640
Speaker 1: are running companies, you know, Just to be clear, but

707
00:40:58,160 --> 00:41:03,759
Speaker 1: I'll use the example of Elation where they incubated in

708
00:41:03,800 --> 00:41:06,000
Speaker 1: our office for a year, so they were up to

709
00:41:06,440 --> 00:41:09,319
Speaker 1: fifteen or sixteen people by the time they left, and

710
00:41:09,400 --> 00:41:13,000
Speaker 1: so there was an almost daily interaction and a debrief

711
00:41:13,040 --> 00:41:16,920
Speaker 1: after they came back from customer meetings and strategy conversations

712
00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:19,920
Speaker 1: and you know, all of these team building conversations on

713
00:41:20,000 --> 00:41:23,359
Speaker 1: a highly regular basis. And that both is great fun,

714
00:41:23,960 --> 00:41:26,920
Speaker 1: but I think it it really helps because it is

715
00:41:26,960 --> 00:41:29,440
Speaker 1: lonely at the top. It's lonely being a founder. It's

716
00:41:29,560 --> 00:41:34,800
Speaker 1: lonely being a CEO and having someone who is there

717
00:41:35,160 --> 00:41:38,480
Speaker 1: but frankly whom you trust and who you're willing to

718
00:41:38,719 --> 00:41:41,680
Speaker 1: be open with and you know, even vulnerable with. I

719
00:41:41,680 --> 00:41:43,920
Speaker 1: don't know the answer to X. Can you help me

720
00:41:43,960 --> 00:41:47,960
Speaker 1: think about why? Is I think a huge asset? So

721
00:41:48,200 --> 00:41:53,360
Speaker 1: what about the macro environments of the economy, the stock

722
00:41:53,440 --> 00:41:55,560
Speaker 1: market when you're when you're looking at a company a

723
00:41:55,640 --> 00:41:59,600
Speaker 1: founder of technology, does that come into the calculation or

724
00:41:59,719 --> 00:42:02,160
Speaker 1: is it, Hey, the next five years are gonna elapse

725
00:42:02,320 --> 00:42:05,759
Speaker 1: regardless of where we are with the market cycle. It

726
00:42:05,840 --> 00:42:09,480
Speaker 1: really is more the ladder we are are. Fundamental discipline

727
00:42:09,520 --> 00:42:11,680
Speaker 1: is micro and bottoms up the way I like to

728
00:42:11,680 --> 00:42:13,360
Speaker 1: say that to our team is the company is the

729
00:42:13,400 --> 00:42:16,279
Speaker 1: unit of analysis here, right, and so we go do

730
00:42:16,320 --> 00:42:19,839
Speaker 1: those fundamentals. Let me repeat that the company is the

731
00:42:19,960 --> 00:42:25,640
Speaker 1: unit of analysis here as opposed to what as opposed to, uh,

732
00:42:26,640 --> 00:42:29,920
Speaker 1: the market. So there are thematic investors who I think

733
00:42:29,960 --> 00:42:32,360
Speaker 1: sometimes do a very good job at saying we're gonna

734
00:42:32,360 --> 00:42:35,200
Speaker 1: go invest in this category and we're gonna interview every

735
00:42:35,239 --> 00:42:38,120
Speaker 1: company and we're gonna pick one because we're smart enough

736
00:42:38,160 --> 00:42:40,560
Speaker 1: to know that this is the one important thing. So

737
00:42:40,600 --> 00:42:43,279
Speaker 1: it's top down. Hey, the social networking thing is big,

738
00:42:43,360 --> 00:42:45,359
Speaker 1: Let's go find a social company that's right. And so

739
00:42:45,400 --> 00:42:47,480
Speaker 1: I think the what I refer to as the bulge

740
00:42:47,480 --> 00:42:50,920
Speaker 1: brack adventure firms tend to think, hey, there's you know,

741
00:42:50,960 --> 00:42:54,239
Speaker 1: there's something moving in this category, and we've got to

742
00:42:54,280 --> 00:42:58,160
Speaker 1: have one, and they so they do this top down process.

743
00:42:58,400 --> 00:43:02,640
Speaker 1: And so ultimately, as I as I said, products and people,

744
00:43:03,480 --> 00:43:06,560
Speaker 1: the only way that macro really comes into it is

745
00:43:07,560 --> 00:43:10,000
Speaker 1: UH one, we have to be sure that we can

746
00:43:10,040 --> 00:43:13,239
Speaker 1: finance the company. Right, so there'll be other capital available

747
00:43:13,680 --> 00:43:16,759
Speaker 1: and meaning you work with other vcs, well you'll co

748
00:43:17,000 --> 00:43:20,160
Speaker 1: invest with and I assume you have relationships with people

749
00:43:20,200 --> 00:43:22,279
Speaker 1: all over. We have relationships with people all over who

750
00:43:22,320 --> 00:43:24,680
Speaker 1: will lead a B in, a C and a D round.

751
00:43:25,360 --> 00:43:27,600
Speaker 1: So that's one, and then the second is as we

752
00:43:27,640 --> 00:43:32,080
Speaker 1: work with companies, the question is this is actually where

753
00:43:32,080 --> 00:43:37,840
Speaker 1: the macro environment plays a stronger role. Is ah, how

754
00:43:37,960 --> 00:43:42,640
Speaker 1: willing are you to get over your skis in pursuing

755
00:43:42,800 --> 00:43:45,960
Speaker 1: growth at any price? And I would say that the

756
00:43:46,000 --> 00:43:48,520
Speaker 1: Bulish bracket firms who have big funds, they gotta return

757
00:43:48,920 --> 00:43:51,320
Speaker 1: four billion dollars if you've got a one and a

758
00:43:51,360 --> 00:43:55,040
Speaker 1: half billion dollar fund. And they tell companies your job

759
00:43:55,120 --> 00:43:57,200
Speaker 1: is to strap on the rocket boosters, and you may

760
00:43:57,200 --> 00:43:58,719
Speaker 1: go into the side of the cliff, or you may

761
00:43:58,719 --> 00:44:01,680
Speaker 1: get into orbit, but job is to maximize the number

762
00:44:01,680 --> 00:44:03,640
Speaker 1: that get into orbit. And I think one of the

763
00:44:03,640 --> 00:44:06,480
Speaker 1: advantages of a boutique firm like us is that we

764
00:44:06,520 --> 00:44:09,880
Speaker 1: can work with founders and say, look, we can, uh,

765
00:44:09,960 --> 00:44:13,400
Speaker 1: let's build on a solid foundation, let's prepare ourselves for

766
00:44:13,440 --> 00:44:18,759
Speaker 1: explosive motion, but let's um be thoughtful about how much

767
00:44:18,800 --> 00:44:23,239
Speaker 1: to invest in growth and and and when to when

768
00:44:23,239 --> 00:44:25,080
Speaker 1: to accelerate, and when to tap on the brakes. And

769
00:44:25,160 --> 00:44:28,960
Speaker 1: I think we're oftentimes a better partner to companies than

770
00:44:29,160 --> 00:44:31,360
Speaker 1: even the biggest names in the business. So you mentioned

771
00:44:31,360 --> 00:44:35,759
Speaker 1: earlier the fee versus the performance side. So with a

772
00:44:35,800 --> 00:44:38,640
Speaker 1: hedge fund it's two and twenty. Venture capital is not

773
00:44:38,760 --> 00:44:41,400
Speaker 1: all that different now it's typically two and two and twenties.

774
00:44:41,400 --> 00:44:44,239
Speaker 1: So if you're on a hundred times less money, well,

775
00:44:44,280 --> 00:44:46,880
Speaker 1: if you're a one of the bulge firms that have

776
00:44:47,239 --> 00:44:51,200
Speaker 1: billions and billions of dollars, that two percent is not insubstantial.

777
00:44:51,640 --> 00:44:55,480
Speaker 1: When I'm hearing from you as an early investor, A,

778
00:44:56,560 --> 00:44:59,600
Speaker 1: there isn't enough capacity to put billions of dollars to work.

779
00:44:59,640 --> 00:45:01,680
Speaker 1: It's that's why these are a hundred and fifty and

780
00:45:01,680 --> 00:45:06,680
Speaker 1: two hundred million dollar UM funds. And be the upside

781
00:45:06,719 --> 00:45:09,400
Speaker 1: to you is to be right more than wrong, and

782
00:45:09,440 --> 00:45:12,760
Speaker 1: it's the performance side. So if they're looking at three

783
00:45:13,000 --> 00:45:15,680
Speaker 1: x on the performance side, you guys are looking at

784
00:45:15,680 --> 00:45:19,280
Speaker 1: a bigger numbers. That Am I catching that? Right? Yeah?

785
00:45:19,320 --> 00:45:22,319
Speaker 1: I think it's it is right that A we are

786
00:45:22,840 --> 00:45:27,600
Speaker 1: striving for higher multiples of capital. And you know, I

787
00:45:27,640 --> 00:45:30,080
Speaker 1: think any of the LPs who actually look at the

788
00:45:30,120 --> 00:45:34,560
Speaker 1: numbers say that people who are raising multi billion dollar

789
00:45:34,640 --> 00:45:37,080
Speaker 1: funds have a hard time return in Uh, you know,

790
00:45:37,320 --> 00:45:39,799
Speaker 1: reacts right, but but yeah, we're you know, we're we

791
00:45:39,840 --> 00:45:44,640
Speaker 1: are striving for uh, you know for four and five

792
00:45:44,680 --> 00:45:47,120
Speaker 1: and six and seven X. Doing ten X on a

793
00:45:47,160 --> 00:45:50,120
Speaker 1: fund is extraordinary. It has been done. But it's an

794
00:45:50,880 --> 00:45:53,799
Speaker 1: and you know, and peoples on or a Facebook or

795
00:45:53,800 --> 00:45:57,719
Speaker 1: a Google or something that's just that's absolutely off the chain. Um,

796
00:45:57,760 --> 00:46:01,919
Speaker 1: what's the process like raising money? Who are the venture investors?

797
00:46:02,400 --> 00:46:06,960
Speaker 1: I don't mean by name, but academic endowmonds, pension funds.

798
00:46:07,120 --> 00:46:10,160
Speaker 1: Who who are your LPs? Yeah? So I started out

799
00:46:10,360 --> 00:46:12,600
Speaker 1: five years ago and I never raised a dime in

800
00:46:12,680 --> 00:46:15,919
Speaker 1: my life really and so and so I really went

801
00:46:16,040 --> 00:46:19,120
Speaker 1: to co investors who had worked with on boards other

802
00:46:19,200 --> 00:46:22,920
Speaker 1: venture capitalists, and a couple of them, people like Fred

803
00:46:22,920 --> 00:46:26,600
Speaker 1: Wilson and Bradfeld, introduced me to some of their LPs.

804
00:46:26,640 --> 00:46:29,239
Speaker 1: And then I just anytime someone would refer me, I

805
00:46:29,280 --> 00:46:34,640
Speaker 1: just kept talking. And it turns out that the university

806
00:46:34,719 --> 00:46:39,160
Speaker 1: endowments and hospital endowments are a big group that there

807
00:46:39,160 --> 00:46:44,759
Speaker 1: are uh for small funds. The pension funds really show

808
00:46:44,840 --> 00:46:47,239
Speaker 1: up in the form of fund of funds that effectively

809
00:46:47,239 --> 00:46:49,880
Speaker 1: our wholesalers they disaggregate pension funds just because they have

810
00:46:49,880 --> 00:46:52,400
Speaker 1: too much money. Pension fund needs to write a hundred

811
00:46:52,400 --> 00:46:55,600
Speaker 1: million dollar check, not a ten million dollar check. UH

812
00:46:55,640 --> 00:46:59,080
Speaker 1: and fund of funds also aggregate money from family offices,

813
00:46:59,480 --> 00:47:02,319
Speaker 1: and sometimes family offices come direct. So those are really

814
00:47:02,360 --> 00:47:07,120
Speaker 1: the three main categories endowments, fund of funds, and family offices.

815
00:47:07,239 --> 00:47:10,399
Speaker 1: So you said you never raised money before five years ago.

816
00:47:10,520 --> 00:47:14,160
Speaker 1: I'm in the exact same situation. What are your experiences

817
00:47:14,239 --> 00:47:19,040
Speaker 1: like speaking to investors and prospective investors? How how does

818
00:47:19,080 --> 00:47:22,239
Speaker 1: that go? And how you obviously have been very successful?

819
00:47:22,600 --> 00:47:29,200
Speaker 1: How did you learn how to pet that animal? I

820
00:47:29,320 --> 00:47:33,880
Speaker 1: honestly trial and air. I didn't know what I was doing.

821
00:47:34,320 --> 00:47:37,040
Speaker 1: I was young and stupid, naive, and I just marched

822
00:47:37,040 --> 00:47:39,520
Speaker 1: into it. And I do think that there's a look,

823
00:47:39,560 --> 00:47:42,560
Speaker 1: there's a great lesson there that you can, you know,

824
00:47:42,680 --> 00:47:46,840
Speaker 1: just learned by doing. I did work with UH, a

825
00:47:46,920 --> 00:47:51,120
Speaker 1: lawyer who was also council that Sutter Hill, so I'd

826
00:47:51,120 --> 00:47:54,440
Speaker 1: had twenty years of trust in history and working with him,

827
00:47:54,440 --> 00:47:56,200
Speaker 1: who could be a little bit of a river guide

828
00:47:56,200 --> 00:47:59,799
Speaker 1: to that. We didn't use any you know, external consultants,

829
00:48:00,200 --> 00:48:04,280
Speaker 1: and I think over time I've been able to incorporate

830
00:48:04,760 --> 00:48:09,480
Speaker 1: advice from other venture capitalists, from people on our team

831
00:48:09,520 --> 00:48:13,799
Speaker 1: who have helped improve our storytelling around that, because I

832
00:48:13,840 --> 00:48:16,359
Speaker 1: really started out saying I've got a point of view

833
00:48:16,400 --> 00:48:19,799
Speaker 1: of what we want to do and who we are,

834
00:48:20,320 --> 00:48:23,359
Speaker 1: and all I wanna do is authentically represent that and

835
00:48:23,440 --> 00:48:26,160
Speaker 1: people for whom that's good enough, great, and where it's

836
00:48:26,200 --> 00:48:29,080
Speaker 1: not good enough, so be it. It becomes a sort

837
00:48:29,080 --> 00:48:32,239
Speaker 1: of self selecting group of people. That's right, it's a

838
00:48:32,320 --> 00:48:36,800
Speaker 1: it's a mutual fit um. And you referenced machine learning

839
00:48:36,800 --> 00:48:41,239
Speaker 1: and artificial intelligence earlier. I would really not be doing

840
00:48:41,280 --> 00:48:44,840
Speaker 1: my job if I didn't ask you. Lots of people

841
00:48:44,880 --> 00:48:50,040
Speaker 1: seem to be concerned about the upcoming singularity and eventual

842
00:48:50,239 --> 00:48:54,640
Speaker 1: robot revolution. Is are these fears overblown? Have we been

843
00:48:54,640 --> 00:48:59,240
Speaker 1: watching too many sci fi movies? Well? I think those

844
00:48:59,320 --> 00:49:03,080
Speaker 1: beers are overblown. But I do think that it's right

845
00:49:03,160 --> 00:49:07,439
Speaker 1: to say that the the Cambrian explosion in AI, which

846
00:49:07,440 --> 00:49:09,600
Speaker 1: it really is right. People have been working on it

847
00:49:09,640 --> 00:49:13,640
Speaker 1: for decades, but that's you know it really you know,

848
00:49:13,680 --> 00:49:17,400
Speaker 1: the proliferation of data, the availability of huge amounts of

849
00:49:17,440 --> 00:49:21,719
Speaker 1: compute in the cloud, and modest improvement in the algorithms

850
00:49:22,120 --> 00:49:25,279
Speaker 1: have really led us to be able to do a

851
00:49:25,360 --> 00:49:28,800
Speaker 1: different set of things. And so every business application, for example,

852
00:49:29,040 --> 00:49:32,200
Speaker 1: will have AI fully infused, and I do think that

853
00:49:32,200 --> 00:49:35,919
Speaker 1: that has employment implications. Were coming off a period where

854
00:49:36,480 --> 00:49:40,239
Speaker 1: wage stignation has been a problem for forty years one time,

855
00:49:40,360 --> 00:49:43,280
Speaker 1: that's right, and I think that will there will continue

856
00:49:43,320 --> 00:49:47,279
Speaker 1: to be the elimination of certain job categories. At the

857
00:49:47,320 --> 00:49:50,080
Speaker 1: same time, there are extraordinary new opportunities. I'll give you

858
00:49:50,120 --> 00:49:53,640
Speaker 1: one example. We've got a company called bug Crowd, which

859
00:49:53,719 --> 00:49:58,520
Speaker 1: is bug crowd bug Crowd which helps companies orchestrate a

860
00:49:58,560 --> 00:50:01,239
Speaker 1: bug bounty program so that so in other words, they

861
00:50:01,239 --> 00:50:05,160
Speaker 1: want users to identify issues with their software so they

862
00:50:05,200 --> 00:50:08,600
Speaker 1: could fix them more or less in real time and

863
00:50:08,680 --> 00:50:10,440
Speaker 1: so right, so that the good guys can find them

864
00:50:10,440 --> 00:50:13,000
Speaker 1: before the bad guys find them. Is this security specific

865
00:50:13,120 --> 00:50:15,719
Speaker 1: or is it everything? It is security specific. And they

866
00:50:15,760 --> 00:50:21,759
Speaker 1: have over forty security researchers on the platform who are

867
00:50:22,320 --> 00:50:26,520
Speaker 1: working with companies like Visa and Fiat Chrysler and PayPal

868
00:50:26,880 --> 00:50:30,240
Speaker 1: to identify those kinds of vulnerabilities. And there are people

869
00:50:30,920 --> 00:50:35,680
Speaker 1: really making a living really as security researchers. In other words,

870
00:50:35,719 --> 00:50:38,000
Speaker 1: they're trying to hack a company, and when they identify

871
00:50:38,080 --> 00:50:41,719
Speaker 1: the hack, they let so really, had had one of

872
00:50:41,760 --> 00:50:47,000
Speaker 1: the credit companies um actually right, had Equifax done this,

873
00:50:47,320 --> 00:50:49,480
Speaker 1: they could have saved themselves a lot of time and headachain.

874
00:50:49,520 --> 00:50:51,200
Speaker 1: That's right, And so this is an example of a

875
00:50:51,280 --> 00:50:54,279
Speaker 1: job that didn't exist five years ago. But people can make.

876
00:50:54,920 --> 00:50:59,360
Speaker 1: People can make really good incomes and six figures, seven figures,

877
00:50:59,360 --> 00:51:03,080
Speaker 1: six figures and uh, you know high five figures and

878
00:51:03,120 --> 00:51:06,480
Speaker 1: six figures, and people can do it at their convenience,

879
00:51:06,480 --> 00:51:07,960
Speaker 1: and they can do it wherever they are, and there

880
00:51:07,960 --> 00:51:12,280
Speaker 1: are examples. Uh, there was a story recently about a

881
00:51:12,320 --> 00:51:15,840
Speaker 1: thirteen year old kid in Bangladesh working out of internet

882
00:51:15,880 --> 00:51:19,800
Speaker 1: cafes who taught himself to hack with YouTube videos and

883
00:51:20,200 --> 00:51:23,880
Speaker 1: he is supporting his family. That's amazing. That's totally amazing.

884
00:51:24,440 --> 00:51:27,520
Speaker 1: So it sounds like you are really focused at a

885
00:51:27,640 --> 00:51:31,160
Speaker 1: very interesting stage of technology. And it also sounds like

886
00:51:31,160 --> 00:51:33,399
Speaker 1: you really enjoy what you do. I love what I do.

887
00:51:33,760 --> 00:51:37,440
Speaker 1: So on that note, let's jump to our uh standard

888
00:51:37,520 --> 00:51:41,239
Speaker 1: questions we ask all our guests. UM, let's start with

889
00:51:41,760 --> 00:51:44,960
Speaker 1: tell us the most important thing that people don't know

890
00:51:45,000 --> 00:51:49,439
Speaker 1: about your background. So I didn't know what I wanted

891
00:51:49,480 --> 00:51:52,319
Speaker 1: to do out of college, and so while I was

892
00:51:52,360 --> 00:51:55,600
Speaker 1: figuring that out, my very first job was as the

893
00:51:55,680 --> 00:51:59,359
Speaker 1: receptionist at the Houghton Mifflin publishing company that I got

894
00:51:59,440 --> 00:52:03,600
Speaker 1: through a temp agency. Okay, Holton Mifflin was a huge publisher. Yeah,

895
00:52:03,600 --> 00:52:06,800
Speaker 1: so you know, textbook publisher. And to me, the point

896
00:52:06,840 --> 00:52:10,799
Speaker 1: of that is, career is long, and your job is

897
00:52:10,840 --> 00:52:13,680
Speaker 1: to navigate and to learn and to put yourself on

898
00:52:13,680 --> 00:52:16,560
Speaker 1: a path and go on a journey. And your first

899
00:52:16,640 --> 00:52:20,319
Speaker 1: job isn't the destination? Very interesting? Tell us about some

900
00:52:20,400 --> 00:52:24,120
Speaker 1: of your early mentors who helped guide your path. Well,

901
00:52:24,200 --> 00:52:28,120
Speaker 1: I would say coming out of my first real professional job,

902
00:52:28,200 --> 00:52:32,560
Speaker 1: which was at a management consulting company now known as Mercer,

903
00:52:32,680 --> 00:52:36,680
Speaker 1: so one Adaran sly Watsky, who is author of The

904
00:52:36,719 --> 00:52:39,680
Speaker 1: Profit Zone and a handful of other books, really taught

905
00:52:39,719 --> 00:52:42,800
Speaker 1: me to think and understand business. I was a political

906
00:52:42,800 --> 00:52:46,960
Speaker 1: science major, so that to me was a real opening

907
00:52:47,080 --> 00:52:50,080
Speaker 1: and I learned a ton. Now. The thing that's also

908
00:52:50,120 --> 00:52:53,399
Speaker 1: interesting is that my uh, the other person I'd put

909
00:52:53,440 --> 00:52:56,759
Speaker 1: on that list is Steve Leavitt, author of fre Economics.

910
00:52:56,880 --> 00:53:00,719
Speaker 1: So he was my uh classmate and my colleague on

911
00:53:00,840 --> 00:53:05,040
Speaker 1: that case. And I jokingly say I did some of

912
00:53:05,080 --> 00:53:07,280
Speaker 1: my best work when I was teamed up with Steve Lovett.

913
00:53:08,080 --> 00:53:09,640
Speaker 1: You know, I also did some of my best work

914
00:53:09,680 --> 00:53:11,480
Speaker 1: at an escape when I was teamed up with Ben Horowitz.

915
00:53:11,480 --> 00:53:13,799
Speaker 1: It turns out, you know, working with Steve taught me

916
00:53:13,840 --> 00:53:15,680
Speaker 1: how to work with people who are smarter than I

917
00:53:15,719 --> 00:53:19,759
Speaker 1: am and to still contribute and and collaborate in a

918
00:53:19,760 --> 00:53:22,680
Speaker 1: way that is really highly productive. And that's ultimately, I think,

919
00:53:22,880 --> 00:53:27,040
Speaker 1: a really important skill that that's really very interesting. Um

920
00:53:27,200 --> 00:53:33,560
Speaker 1: venture capitalists. Who who influenced your approach to VC investment? Well,

921
00:53:33,640 --> 00:53:37,879
Speaker 1: I I've mentioned Fred Wilson before, but he Fred, Fred

922
00:53:37,880 --> 00:53:42,200
Speaker 1: Wilson is in Union Square Ventures and is pointed by

923
00:53:42,200 --> 00:53:46,239
Speaker 1: the way, I'm literally pointing square, that's right, and and

924
00:53:46,360 --> 00:53:50,200
Speaker 1: notably the early investor in Twitter, which I also passed on.

925
00:53:50,960 --> 00:53:56,120
Speaker 1: But you know, Fred, there are lots of great business opportunities.

926
00:53:56,320 --> 00:54:02,200
Speaker 1: But Fred helped really teach me the value of platforms,

927
00:54:03,320 --> 00:54:07,600
Speaker 1: platforms and ecosystems. And that's how you take the ten

928
00:54:07,800 --> 00:54:10,680
Speaker 1: x opportunity and turned it into the fifty or opportunity.

929
00:54:10,719 --> 00:54:14,480
Speaker 1: Ecosystems and platforms. Yes, that's really interesting, and I'm gonna

930
00:54:14,480 --> 00:54:17,120
Speaker 1: do something I never do. Fred. You keep saying, no,

931
00:54:17,800 --> 00:54:20,759
Speaker 1: I've had Mark on, I've had Greg on, come on,

932
00:54:21,000 --> 00:54:25,040
Speaker 1: step up, let's let's let's get you out of downtown

933
00:54:25,040 --> 00:54:28,360
Speaker 1: and up to midtown for an hour or two. Um,

934
00:54:28,400 --> 00:54:32,200
Speaker 1: this is everybody's favorite question. Tell us about some of

935
00:54:32,239 --> 00:54:37,080
Speaker 1: your favorite books, fiction, nonfiction, technology, venture, investing, or what

936
00:54:37,200 --> 00:54:42,080
Speaker 1: have you. So you know, to me, the book that

937
00:54:42,200 --> 00:54:46,920
Speaker 1: basically every educated adults should read is Sapiens. The predecessor

938
00:54:47,000 --> 00:54:49,320
Speaker 1: of that fifteen years earlier was guns, germs, and steel.

939
00:54:50,280 --> 00:54:55,880
Speaker 1: But to me, those explain who we are as you know,

940
00:54:55,920 --> 00:54:59,360
Speaker 1: as a people and how we got here. And to me,

941
00:54:59,680 --> 00:55:03,480
Speaker 1: in the context of something like Sapiens, it's fascinating to

942
00:55:04,239 --> 00:55:11,160
Speaker 1: look at uh, language and money as early API s right,

943
00:55:11,239 --> 00:55:16,800
Speaker 1: application programming interfaces, ways of exchanging information or exchanging goods,

944
00:55:17,080 --> 00:55:20,160
Speaker 1: and so I love having that sort of universal and

945
00:55:20,239 --> 00:55:23,600
Speaker 1: historical perspective. Have you gotten to Homodaeus yet? This is

946
00:55:23,680 --> 00:55:28,799
Speaker 1: follow up? So I found Sapiens to be a little dark. Um,

947
00:55:28,840 --> 00:55:32,959
Speaker 1: agriculture leads to disease. It was a little, But Homodaeus

948
00:55:33,120 --> 00:55:37,799
Speaker 1: is just a little dystopia view of the future of mankind.

949
00:55:38,000 --> 00:55:41,799
Speaker 1: He's a fascinating writer. I love the way he contextualizes

950
00:55:42,600 --> 00:55:45,239
Speaker 1: of physics, biology, and chemistry, the way he puts that

951
00:55:45,280 --> 00:55:48,560
Speaker 1: into a broader context. In the beginning of Sapiens, I

952
00:55:48,600 --> 00:55:51,480
Speaker 1: found that really to be a fascinating thing. Give us

953
00:55:51,480 --> 00:55:55,560
Speaker 1: a guns, germs and steel sapiens. How we got to now,

954
00:55:55,560 --> 00:55:58,200
Speaker 1: which is Steven Johnson, So it basically the second person

955
00:55:58,200 --> 00:56:01,480
Speaker 1: who's recommended that it's fabulous. And so this idea that

956
00:56:01,560 --> 00:56:06,319
Speaker 1: things that we just take for granted were fundamental innovations

957
00:56:06,400 --> 00:56:11,560
Speaker 1: and have had as big and implication implications for uh,

958
00:56:11,600 --> 00:56:15,160
Speaker 1: for for the human race as things like transistors that

959
00:56:15,200 --> 00:56:17,680
Speaker 1: are not that that we acknowledge have had. So an

960
00:56:17,680 --> 00:56:20,960
Speaker 1: example would be glass, right, right, you don't even think

961
00:56:20,960 --> 00:56:23,160
Speaker 1: twice about it, that's right, and not not only glass,

962
00:56:23,200 --> 00:56:26,680
Speaker 1: but safety glass. Think about what that did for automobiles

963
00:56:26,719 --> 00:56:29,640
Speaker 1: and who even thinks twice about that? Exactly right? So

964
00:56:29,680 --> 00:56:33,560
Speaker 1: but but you know before glass, you were you either

965
00:56:33,640 --> 00:56:36,440
Speaker 1: had light or you were cold. It was one of

966
00:56:36,480 --> 00:56:40,080
Speaker 1: the one. Right, Um, how about not? How about fiction?

967
00:56:40,400 --> 00:56:44,319
Speaker 1: All of us read nonfiction because we can rationalize the

968
00:56:44,360 --> 00:56:47,040
Speaker 1: time as well, it's work related. But how often do

969
00:56:47,080 --> 00:56:50,360
Speaker 1: you step back and read something that's just fiction? I

970
00:56:50,360 --> 00:56:54,800
Speaker 1: would say about what I read is fiction? I basically

971
00:56:54,840 --> 00:56:57,320
Speaker 1: pick about one out of five from my wife's book clubs,

972
00:56:58,080 --> 00:57:04,160
Speaker 1: and there are the person that I so, by the way,

973
00:57:04,160 --> 00:57:07,920
Speaker 1: I'll read anything that Michael Lewis writes, I'll read UM,

974
00:57:08,040 --> 00:57:11,759
Speaker 1: but I really love Michael Sabone, And for me, that

975
00:57:11,920 --> 00:57:16,000
Speaker 1: started with Cavalier and Clay. Michael Sabone, Cavalier and Clay

976
00:57:16,000 --> 00:57:19,040
Speaker 1: I am not familiar with. So it is a so

977
00:57:19,120 --> 00:57:21,520
Speaker 1: it actually is a New York story. But it's two

978
00:57:21,600 --> 00:57:24,000
Speaker 1: kids who start out in Eastern Europe, you know, who

979
00:57:24,080 --> 00:57:26,560
Speaker 1: migrate to New York and then they basically start a

980
00:57:26,600 --> 00:57:29,960
Speaker 1: comic book company and they and they, you know, I

981
00:57:30,000 --> 00:57:32,240
Speaker 1: think they end up on the on the Lower East Side,

982
00:57:32,240 --> 00:57:35,120
Speaker 1: and they navigate their way through and it's uh. But

983
00:57:35,240 --> 00:57:40,040
Speaker 1: he has an amazing human insight and turn of a phrase.

984
00:57:40,240 --> 00:57:43,920
Speaker 1: And so for me, when I'm reading a book UH

985
00:57:44,080 --> 00:57:48,080
Speaker 1: with a truly great author, I find myself periodically I

986
00:57:48,120 --> 00:57:52,720
Speaker 1: just laugh out loud where they just capture humanity in

987
00:57:52,760 --> 00:57:55,200
Speaker 1: a in a way that I had never thought of,

988
00:57:55,480 --> 00:57:58,520
Speaker 1: and it gives unique insight. But it also is just funny.

989
00:57:58,800 --> 00:58:02,120
Speaker 1: It makes my wife crazy when we're we're coming. I

990
00:58:02,200 --> 00:58:04,920
Speaker 1: read Ready Player one on a flight back from Europe.

991
00:58:04,960 --> 00:58:07,560
Speaker 1: I pretty much killed the whole book on a flight,

992
00:58:07,960 --> 00:58:10,560
Speaker 1: and parts of it are really funny and I start

993
00:58:10,640 --> 00:58:14,440
Speaker 1: laughing out loud and she just gets embarrassed. By by

994
00:58:14,560 --> 00:58:19,680
Speaker 1: my Hyena. Like before, in the middle of a of

995
00:58:19,760 --> 00:58:21,960
Speaker 1: a room, I watched her I get an elbow and

996
00:58:21,960 --> 00:58:24,640
Speaker 1: then she turns red and it's actually pretty funny. I'm

997
00:58:24,640 --> 00:58:27,640
Speaker 1: gonna have to check that book out. That sounds really fascinating.

998
00:58:28,080 --> 00:58:31,880
Speaker 1: Um the venture capital industry, tell us about what's changed

999
00:58:32,320 --> 00:58:34,520
Speaker 1: since you've become a VC. What what are the big

1000
00:58:34,560 --> 00:58:38,080
Speaker 1: shifts that have taken place. Well, I think twenty years

1001
00:58:38,080 --> 00:58:41,040
Speaker 1: ago it felt much more like an ivory tower where

1002
00:58:41,360 --> 00:58:44,040
Speaker 1: people came to pay homage to venture capitalists, and venture

1003
00:58:44,080 --> 00:58:46,440
Speaker 1: capitalists made pronouncements about whether or not they were going

1004
00:58:46,480 --> 00:58:49,800
Speaker 1: to fund. And I would say that there's been a

1005
00:58:49,880 --> 00:58:55,160
Speaker 1: huge so some of there's been a proliferation of seed

1006
00:58:55,200 --> 00:58:57,880
Speaker 1: funds and incubators, so there are many more sources of capital,

1007
00:58:58,520 --> 00:59:02,480
Speaker 1: and there's a transparency and so there are reputation effects

1008
00:59:02,520 --> 00:59:06,000
Speaker 1: and the like which you see in a bunch of

1009
00:59:06,280 --> 00:59:11,720
Speaker 1: um you know uh that I think ultimately holds venture

1010
00:59:11,720 --> 00:59:16,720
Speaker 1: capitals and and their firms accountable for being truly good partners.

1011
00:59:16,960 --> 00:59:20,240
Speaker 1: So certainly that's one. The other is, you know, there

1012
00:59:20,240 --> 00:59:21,800
Speaker 1: are two and a half billion cell phones in the

1013
00:59:21,800 --> 00:59:26,760
Speaker 1: world right so the markets that we can address are

1014
00:59:26,880 --> 00:59:30,560
Speaker 1: much bigger, and I would say twenty years ago the

1015
00:59:30,640 --> 00:59:35,400
Speaker 1: only venture capital was really only proven in Silicon Valley Boston.

1016
00:59:35,440 --> 00:59:37,120
Speaker 1: At that point, it kind of fallen off the map.

1017
00:59:37,200 --> 00:59:40,960
Speaker 1: And there really is there is innovation everywhere, and there

1018
00:59:41,040 --> 00:59:43,800
Speaker 1: is and so both in a lot of pockets in

1019
00:59:43,840 --> 00:59:48,160
Speaker 1: the US outside of Silicon Valley, but also in you know,

1020
00:59:48,200 --> 00:59:52,480
Speaker 1: we found some really interesting investments in Australia. There's obviously

1021
00:59:52,520 --> 00:59:54,800
Speaker 1: a ton of work being done in London and Estonia

1022
00:59:55,240 --> 00:59:59,480
Speaker 1: and parts of Scandinavia, obviously Estonian Scandinavia. I don't think

1023
00:59:59,520 --> 01:00:02,120
Speaker 1: a lot of people bowl would think that's obvious. I

1024
01:00:02,160 --> 01:00:08,280
Speaker 1: mean New York, Chicago, Boston, Austin, San Francisco, Seattle, Shore, Estonia.

1025
01:00:08,320 --> 01:00:11,920
Speaker 1: What is happening in Estonia? Well, I think so, the

1026
01:00:11,920 --> 01:00:15,280
Speaker 1: the Russian Soviet Empire had a long history of computer

1027
01:00:15,360 --> 01:00:20,479
Speaker 1: science and so but there are you know, starting with

1028
01:00:20,840 --> 01:00:24,240
Speaker 1: Skype and some and some other companies, there have been uh,

1029
01:00:24,320 --> 01:00:29,480
Speaker 1: some really impressive companies and even more really impressive technologists

1030
01:00:29,520 --> 01:00:32,200
Speaker 1: that have come out of those places. So often they

1031
01:00:32,200 --> 01:00:35,640
Speaker 1: will set up end up setting setting up headquarters in

1032
01:00:37,040 --> 01:00:41,000
Speaker 1: Silicon Valley or elsewhere, but that kernel of innovation is

1033
01:00:41,040 --> 01:00:43,880
Speaker 1: coming from all over the world. So Silicon Valley is

1034
01:00:43,960 --> 01:00:50,880
Speaker 1: infamous for having the full critical mass of people, capital, technology,

1035
01:00:51,080 --> 01:00:55,120
Speaker 1: access to universities, access to great companies. It's all right

1036
01:00:55,160 --> 01:00:58,920
Speaker 1: there in one place. How essential is that? Do you

1037
01:00:59,000 --> 01:01:01,640
Speaker 1: get that in a New York or Seattle or or

1038
01:01:01,640 --> 01:01:04,880
Speaker 1: in Essotonia or do you have to have ties to

1039
01:01:05,840 --> 01:01:11,080
Speaker 1: Silicon Valley as as the motherland? Well, I'd say Silicon

1040
01:01:11,160 --> 01:01:13,400
Speaker 1: Valley in its in sort of the breadth and depth

1041
01:01:13,480 --> 01:01:15,440
Speaker 1: of its market is really unique in the world. I mean,

1042
01:01:15,440 --> 01:01:18,560
Speaker 1: it is a very very unique place. That said, you

1043
01:01:18,600 --> 01:01:22,400
Speaker 1: can build really interesting companies plenty of other places, and

1044
01:01:22,600 --> 01:01:24,959
Speaker 1: you know, we do have companies all over the country.

1045
01:01:25,160 --> 01:01:29,720
Speaker 1: I think for companies that are even farther away, you know,

1046
01:01:29,760 --> 01:01:33,520
Speaker 1: so outside the US, it ends up being very important

1047
01:01:33,920 --> 01:01:38,640
Speaker 1: to have some connection to two Silicon Valley and the

1048
01:01:38,680 --> 01:01:42,840
Speaker 1: ability to do that. Sometimes that's opening up a sales

1049
01:01:42,840 --> 01:01:45,600
Speaker 1: and marketing office. Sometimes it's having headquarters there and keeping

1050
01:01:45,600 --> 01:01:48,840
Speaker 1: product development where the company was started. But I think

1051
01:01:48,880 --> 01:01:52,640
Speaker 1: even in Europe, the most successful venture capital firms are

1052
01:01:52,680 --> 01:01:55,600
Speaker 1: ones that have significant Silicon Valley ties, so they can

1053
01:01:55,640 --> 01:01:59,480
Speaker 1: help the companies translate back and forth. Very very interesting.

1054
01:02:00,480 --> 01:02:02,800
Speaker 1: We briefly touched on this before but I want to

1055
01:02:02,840 --> 01:02:06,160
Speaker 1: revisit it in this context. Tell us about a time

1056
01:02:06,200 --> 01:02:09,280
Speaker 1: you failed personally, I don't mean a failed venture investment,

1057
01:02:09,960 --> 01:02:12,640
Speaker 1: a time you failed, and what you learned from the experience.

1058
01:02:13,480 --> 01:02:17,280
Speaker 1: We all fail multiple times in our lives, and I

1059
01:02:17,320 --> 01:02:22,080
Speaker 1: would say, um, the most dramatic one, even though it

1060
01:02:22,120 --> 01:02:25,560
Speaker 1: wasn't actually a failure, was what it felt like raising

1061
01:02:25,600 --> 01:02:28,040
Speaker 1: fund one for the first time. And you know, I

1062
01:02:28,040 --> 01:02:30,959
Speaker 1: talked about not having done it. I had not really

1063
01:02:31,000 --> 01:02:33,040
Speaker 1: ever had a sales job. I hadn't been turned down

1064
01:02:33,480 --> 01:02:37,080
Speaker 1: that many times in my life, I believe, uh, you know,

1065
01:02:37,280 --> 01:02:41,120
Speaker 1: I had probably about a hit rate, but that means

1066
01:02:41,160 --> 01:02:45,840
Speaker 1: about turned down, right, And actually it was in its

1067
01:02:45,840 --> 01:02:48,080
Speaker 1: own way, it was kind of crushing, and it happened

1068
01:02:48,080 --> 01:02:50,880
Speaker 1: that it happened at a time when there were a

1069
01:02:50,880 --> 01:02:53,600
Speaker 1: couple of things going on in my family, including a

1070
01:02:53,760 --> 01:02:55,560
Speaker 1: you know, a young daughter at that time who tore

1071
01:02:55,640 --> 01:02:59,600
Speaker 1: ra c L and the like. And for me, the

1072
01:02:59,600 --> 01:03:03,560
Speaker 1: the ultimate lesson and the of going through that was

1073
01:03:04,040 --> 01:03:08,520
Speaker 1: really adopting this idea of the growth mentality. So you know,

1074
01:03:08,760 --> 01:03:11,880
Speaker 1: Carol tax book is sort of a seminal piece on

1075
01:03:11,920 --> 01:03:15,160
Speaker 1: that that what's the name of that book. I think

1076
01:03:15,200 --> 01:03:21,560
Speaker 1: it's called I think it's just called mentality, but I

1077
01:03:21,560 --> 01:03:25,720
Speaker 1: could be wrong about that, but it basically summarizes this mindset.

1078
01:03:25,880 --> 01:03:29,240
Speaker 1: Mindset there you go that your job is just to learn.

1079
01:03:29,760 --> 01:03:31,919
Speaker 1: Your job isn't to win, your job isn't to be right,

1080
01:03:32,240 --> 01:03:33,960
Speaker 1: your job is just to learn. It comes back to

1081
01:03:33,960 --> 01:03:36,479
Speaker 1: what we talked about with Andreson and Zuckerberg. Your job

1082
01:03:36,600 --> 01:03:39,480
Speaker 1: is to learn. And so when you basically take the

1083
01:03:39,520 --> 01:03:43,040
Speaker 1: pressure off because that I, hey, I have to succeed,

1084
01:03:43,080 --> 01:03:45,440
Speaker 1: I can't fail, ended up being a monkey on my

1085
01:03:45,480 --> 01:03:49,160
Speaker 1: back and breaking through to the other side to say, hey, look,

1086
01:03:49,160 --> 01:03:51,160
Speaker 1: we're just gonna do our best and we're gonna learn.

1087
01:03:51,280 --> 01:03:52,720
Speaker 1: And by the way, I'm gonna be better next year

1088
01:03:52,760 --> 01:03:57,880
Speaker 1: than I am now. And it was really um I

1089
01:03:57,920 --> 01:04:03,080
Speaker 1: would really recommend that, uh that people pick up Carol

1090
01:04:03,120 --> 01:04:08,520
Speaker 1: Drects mindset And it was a it. It really did

1091
01:04:08,680 --> 01:04:12,080
Speaker 1: shift the way that I approached my work. Fascinating. Tell

1092
01:04:12,160 --> 01:04:14,400
Speaker 1: us what you do outside of the office to relax

1093
01:04:14,440 --> 01:04:18,600
Speaker 1: either mentally, you're feasibly Most importantly, I'm a cyclist, so

1094
01:04:18,600 --> 01:04:21,960
Speaker 1: I'm a road cyclist. We have, you know, incredible territory,

1095
01:04:22,000 --> 01:04:24,000
Speaker 1: so I can write up my front door for two

1096
01:04:24,000 --> 01:04:26,040
Speaker 1: to three hours and be you know, up in the

1097
01:04:26,160 --> 01:04:31,600
Speaker 1: Santa Cruz Mountains and uh, you know, surrounded by the redwoods,

1098
01:04:31,600 --> 01:04:34,720
Speaker 1: which I've decided are my spirit animal. And you know,

1099
01:04:34,840 --> 01:04:37,320
Speaker 1: and I do that most Saturday mornings with you know,

1100
01:04:37,360 --> 01:04:40,120
Speaker 1: a couple of of really good friends. And that's just

1101
01:04:40,200 --> 01:04:44,240
Speaker 1: my way to decompress and put my life in context

1102
01:04:44,280 --> 01:04:47,280
Speaker 1: and have some fun. So we we hadn't touched on

1103
01:04:47,320 --> 01:04:51,040
Speaker 1: this earlier. If if a millennial or a recent college

1104
01:04:51,040 --> 01:04:53,520
Speaker 1: grad came up to you and said, Hey, I'm thinking

1105
01:04:53,520 --> 01:04:58,160
Speaker 1: about going into filling the blank technology venture investing, et cetera,

1106
01:04:58,640 --> 01:05:02,480
Speaker 1: what sort of advice would you of them? Uh? Number one,

1107
01:05:02,520 --> 01:05:05,680
Speaker 1: surround yourself with the best people that you can. And

1108
01:05:05,720 --> 01:05:07,840
Speaker 1: by the way, that doesn't mean the most famous people

1109
01:05:08,240 --> 01:05:10,320
Speaker 1: or the people that other people think are great. Right,

1110
01:05:10,440 --> 01:05:14,040
Speaker 1: your value system your lens, because that's the only way

1111
01:05:14,040 --> 01:05:16,240
Speaker 1: that your lens will get better over time is to

1112
01:05:16,280 --> 01:05:21,360
Speaker 1: focus on on that. The second is work on things

1113
01:05:21,400 --> 01:05:25,200
Speaker 1: that you find interesting, because you're never going to be

1114
01:05:25,400 --> 01:05:29,040
Speaker 1: great at something that you don't love. It just takes

1115
01:05:29,080 --> 01:05:31,680
Speaker 1: too much time and energy. And then the third thing

1116
01:05:31,800 --> 01:05:35,120
Speaker 1: I just layer back in is uh. And by the way,

1117
01:05:35,160 --> 01:05:37,120
Speaker 1: I was talking to a young woman at an event

1118
01:05:37,200 --> 01:05:40,680
Speaker 1: that we held last night on diversity in in Tech

1119
01:05:40,760 --> 01:05:45,720
Speaker 1: called Seat at the Table and the Life is Long

1120
01:05:46,120 --> 01:05:50,960
Speaker 1: beyond a journey learn. I like that philosophy and our

1121
01:05:51,040 --> 01:05:54,680
Speaker 1: final question what is it that you know about venture

1122
01:05:54,720 --> 01:05:58,560
Speaker 1: investing today that you wish you knew twenty years ago

1123
01:05:58,640 --> 01:06:02,840
Speaker 1: when you were first starting. So I will point out

1124
01:06:02,880 --> 01:06:05,960
Speaker 1: that the thing that I was taught very early on

1125
01:06:06,040 --> 01:06:09,959
Speaker 1: that's foundational is people, people people, and you know that's

1126
01:06:10,200 --> 01:06:14,320
Speaker 1: what the sutter Hill orientation. The thing that I didn't

1127
01:06:14,360 --> 01:06:19,560
Speaker 1: fully understand that I wish I knew was platform, platform platform.

1128
01:06:19,640 --> 01:06:21,800
Speaker 1: I think that's the thing that again it takes the

1129
01:06:21,800 --> 01:06:24,400
Speaker 1: ten x opportunity and turns it into the hundred x opportunity.

1130
01:06:24,760 --> 01:06:30,440
Speaker 1: And so that is ultimately the thing that we are

1131
01:06:30,520 --> 01:06:33,800
Speaker 1: most looking for in these early stage companies. You don't know,

1132
01:06:34,360 --> 01:06:38,120
Speaker 1: but you say, if we're successful, if A and B happen,

1133
01:06:38,840 --> 01:06:44,200
Speaker 1: can the next chapter be this extraordinary platform opportunity? Thank you, Greg,

1134
01:06:44,240 --> 01:06:47,520
Speaker 1: that that's really quite fascinating. Everybody makes fun of me

1135
01:06:47,560 --> 01:06:50,800
Speaker 1: for using that word, but it's fascinating. We have been

1136
01:06:50,840 --> 01:06:53,840
Speaker 1: speaking with Greg Sands of Coast to No A Ventures.

1137
01:06:54,400 --> 01:06:57,160
Speaker 1: If you enjoy this conversation, be sure and looked up

1138
01:06:57,160 --> 01:06:59,920
Speaker 1: an inch or it down an inch on Apple, Itune

1139
01:07:00,200 --> 01:07:02,760
Speaker 1: or wherever fine podcasts are sold, and you can see

1140
01:07:03,240 --> 01:07:06,280
Speaker 1: any of the other hundred and fifty nine or so

1141
01:07:06,760 --> 01:07:11,160
Speaker 1: such conversations we've had previously. We love your comments, feedback

1142
01:07:11,280 --> 01:07:15,480
Speaker 1: and suggestions right to us at m IB podcast at

1143
01:07:15,480 --> 01:07:18,600
Speaker 1: Bloomberg dot net. I would be remiss if I did

1144
01:07:18,600 --> 01:07:21,880
Speaker 1: not thank my crack staff who helped me put together

1145
01:07:22,480 --> 01:07:28,160
Speaker 1: these podcasts. Medina Parwana is our audio producer and engineer.

1146
01:07:28,680 --> 01:07:32,040
Speaker 1: Taylor Riggs is our booker. Michael Batnick is my head

1147
01:07:32,040 --> 01:07:36,320
Speaker 1: of research. I'm Barry Ritolts. You've been listening to Masters

1148
01:07:36,360 --> 01:07:38,720
Speaker 1: in Business on Bloomberg Radio