WEBVTT - Creativity and Dominant Stories w/Sara Bareilles 0:00:00.040 --> 0:00:02.800 I'm Shonda Rhymes and we're bringing the dominant Stories created 0:00:02.800 --> 0:00:05.160 about Shawn land Audio in partnership with the Dove Self 0:00:05.200 --> 0:00:13.200 Steam Project. I am exactly the way you are when 0:00:13.200 --> 0:00:16.040 you're in the feudal position, crying and you can't figure 0:00:16.040 --> 0:00:20.200 out why. I am slipping through the city, feeling lost 0:00:20.239 --> 0:00:22.799 and alone half the time, and and doing the best 0:00:22.840 --> 0:00:25.680 I can. Right. I relate to people who are just 0:00:25.760 --> 0:00:27.600 doing the best they can, and I would only like 0:00:27.760 --> 0:00:29.360 to have them think of me as the same way, 0:00:29.400 --> 0:00:39.160 because I really feel like we're all the same that way. Hey, everybody, 0:00:39.200 --> 0:00:44.040 I'm Jess Weener and this is dominant stories. Dominant stories 0:00:44.120 --> 0:00:48.599 are those stories that we tell ourselves about ourselves. They 0:00:48.640 --> 0:00:52.400 can be about our worth or our value, our body image, beauty. 0:00:52.600 --> 0:00:54.920 That could sound like I'm not good enough, I'm too 0:00:54.920 --> 0:00:58.040 old to start something new, I don't deserve this. When 0:00:58.080 --> 0:01:01.040 we don't challenge those stories, they and end up shaping 0:01:01.360 --> 0:01:04.800 the direction of our lives. They say that you often 0:01:04.840 --> 0:01:07.039 teach what you most need to learn, and in this case, 0:01:07.080 --> 0:01:10.240 I think that's true. I've been exploring and teaching around 0:01:10.240 --> 0:01:12.640 the concept of dominant stories for a while now because 0:01:13.040 --> 0:01:15.360 I have a lot of those voices, and no matter 0:01:15.440 --> 0:01:18.399 what level of success I achieve or what my relationship 0:01:18.440 --> 0:01:21.440 statuses are, those voices are still there. So I'm trying 0:01:21.440 --> 0:01:23.360 to find a way to make peace with those voices, 0:01:23.400 --> 0:01:25.400 to unpack them. In one of the ways that I 0:01:25.440 --> 0:01:29.880 find that's really effective is just talking to people. These thoughts, 0:01:30.000 --> 0:01:33.959 these dominant stories, They really thrive in secrecy and in shame. 0:01:34.080 --> 0:01:36.520 So one of the greatest tools we have is the 0:01:36.640 --> 0:01:40.440 art of conversation, and these conversations on this show are 0:01:40.440 --> 0:01:45.240 going to be vulnerable, real and actionable. So in thinking 0:01:45.240 --> 0:01:48.560 about how to kick off this our very first episode, 0:01:48.760 --> 0:01:52.240 I knew that I wanted to be in conversation with 0:01:52.480 --> 0:01:56.320 one of the most talented, sweet, kind and dear friends 0:01:56.320 --> 0:01:58.360 that I have. I am talking about the one and 0:01:58.360 --> 0:02:02.480 the only Sarah Brella. You probably know and love. Sarah's 0:02:02.520 --> 0:02:05.480 incredible work in the world. Whether you've come to love 0:02:05.880 --> 0:02:08.200 her through Love Song, the hit song that she wrote 0:02:08.200 --> 0:02:12.200 in two thousand seven, She's done incredible work for Little 0:02:12.280 --> 0:02:16.440 Voice on Apple Plus TV, two Girls, five EVA on Peacock, 0:02:16.480 --> 0:02:19.400 and of course for all of my Broadway Officion autos 0:02:19.440 --> 0:02:22.800 out there. She wrote the music and lyrics for Waitress 0:02:22.840 --> 0:02:25.200 and a lot of what Sarah does inspires us and 0:02:25.240 --> 0:02:27.880 lifts us up. But there is a truth behind her 0:02:27.919 --> 0:02:31.200 process and her relationship to creativity that I knew that 0:02:31.240 --> 0:02:33.399 I wanted us to talk about a little bit more 0:02:33.720 --> 0:02:37.040 on this show. I think we really bonded talking about 0:02:37.639 --> 0:02:41.520 how creativity manifests in our life, how it is this 0:02:41.680 --> 0:02:45.800 gorgeous opportunity to know ourselves in the world, but also 0:02:46.040 --> 0:02:49.320 to be known by the world, being seen and heard 0:02:49.360 --> 0:02:52.120 and understood to something I'm passionate about. It is something 0:02:52.200 --> 0:02:54.880 she is passionate about. So I cannot wait for you 0:02:55.120 --> 0:02:58.360 to hear this conversation with Sarah Borellis. And of course, 0:02:58.480 --> 0:03:00.520 if you like the show, let you know what you 0:03:00.520 --> 0:03:04.720 think by subscribing by writing a review wherever you listen. 0:03:05.400 --> 0:03:17.000 I can't wait to dig in. Well, hi, friend, So 0:03:17.160 --> 0:03:20.200 as I was thinking about this conversation with you today 0:03:20.480 --> 0:03:23.320 and all of the things that I wonder about around 0:03:24.400 --> 0:03:28.080 making art and being creative and taking care of ourselves 0:03:28.080 --> 0:03:31.080 in the world, especially given the world that we're currently 0:03:31.120 --> 0:03:34.040 living in. You know, you and I had a chance 0:03:34.120 --> 0:03:39.360 to talk last year. Um so in twenty twenty, as 0:03:39.440 --> 0:03:42.400 worlds were shifting quite a bit and we were all 0:03:42.400 --> 0:03:45.640 sort of reckoning with what this means for our output 0:03:45.760 --> 0:03:48.800 in the world. And and it's almost like a little 0:03:48.840 --> 0:03:52.160 over a year later, and I was thinking about the 0:03:52.320 --> 0:03:55.800 role of creativity during this time and where it saves 0:03:55.920 --> 0:03:59.920 us and where it stalls us. And first I got 0:04:00.000 --> 0:04:01.680 so I was really thinking about going in the way 0:04:01.720 --> 0:04:06.280 way back machine too, little Sarah, and like, did you 0:04:06.320 --> 0:04:09.640 think about yourself as a creative kid? Like were you 0:04:09.760 --> 0:04:13.520 aware of your love of telling a story or being 0:04:13.560 --> 0:04:16.719 creative or like making things when you were a little girl? 0:04:17.360 --> 0:04:21.480 I wonder if I was, really I wonder if kids 0:04:21.560 --> 0:04:25.200 are aware of themselves that way, you know what I mean, Like, yeah, 0:04:25.360 --> 0:04:30.400 what is partially so magical about that age and why 0:04:31.000 --> 0:04:34.760 people love being around kids because there is it's like 0:04:34.839 --> 0:04:38.520 you haven't learned to be self conscious at all in 0:04:38.560 --> 0:04:43.400 those ways, or you're not measuring yourself against the rest 0:04:43.440 --> 0:04:46.600 of the world yet. Yeah. So I don't know if 0:04:46.640 --> 0:04:49.800 I had a great awareness of it, but when I 0:04:49.839 --> 0:04:54.200 look back, I clearly was someone who had a big imagination, 0:04:55.240 --> 0:04:57.960 not only just by myself, but like that was how 0:04:58.080 --> 0:05:01.359 my friends and I played. We made movies, We created 0:05:01.360 --> 0:05:05.440 these crazy stories. And I lived on five acres of 0:05:05.600 --> 0:05:07.880 redwood forest so it was I would playing with my 0:05:07.960 --> 0:05:11.680 cousins and we would leave in the morning and come 0:05:11.680 --> 0:05:14.200 home at night, and we were we had gone on 0:05:15.720 --> 0:05:20.040 grand adventures, and we had time traveled, and we had 0:05:20.760 --> 0:05:26.159 found dinosaur bones. But I don't remember ever feeling like 0:05:26.320 --> 0:05:30.520 I knew what that was really. I think, in context 0:05:30.560 --> 0:05:36.680 of anything I do now, that's what I was thinking about, 0:05:36.800 --> 0:05:40.159 is that moment of awareness that we get around the 0:05:40.279 --> 0:05:44.920 specialty of creativity, because I remember same like I would 0:05:44.960 --> 0:05:48.040 spend mostly playing with my sister and we would make 0:05:48.120 --> 0:05:52.840 up stories all day long. And but I do remember 0:05:52.880 --> 0:05:55.720 at some point when kids start to break off and 0:05:56.120 --> 0:05:58.400 people give you labels for the things that you're quote 0:05:58.480 --> 0:06:01.800 unquote good at, right when she becomes the athlete or 0:06:01.839 --> 0:06:05.640 he becomes the math superstar or whatever. I remember then 0:06:05.680 --> 0:06:08.760 I became height more heightened and aware of where I 0:06:08.800 --> 0:06:11.240 should fit in. Did it feel like that for you? 0:06:11.640 --> 0:06:14.120 I think it had to do with my singing voice. 0:06:14.240 --> 0:06:16.680 That was the first thing that was like sort of 0:06:16.720 --> 0:06:20.440 the marker, and what I got I got validated for, 0:06:20.760 --> 0:06:24.360 I suppose, and it's the thing that made me special. 0:06:25.200 --> 0:06:28.279 I think what was interesting in reflection on it now 0:06:28.520 --> 0:06:31.760 is that it was a really self conscious kid. I 0:06:31.800 --> 0:06:34.479 got teased a lot in elementary school. It was a 0:06:34.520 --> 0:06:38.680 really uncomfortable time of always feeling like it was a 0:06:39.040 --> 0:06:40.400 I went to Catholic school. I went it was a 0:06:40.440 --> 0:06:43.480 really small class, and it was almost like I couldn't 0:06:43.520 --> 0:06:46.240 trust that anyone was quite my friend because they would 0:06:46.240 --> 0:06:48.159 turn on and I was like, they'd be nice to 0:06:48.200 --> 0:06:49.800 me one minute, and then they turned on it. That's 0:06:49.839 --> 0:06:52.479 just sort of the nature of the little beasts that 0:06:52.600 --> 0:06:55.760 got that age. Yes, there was a lot of self 0:06:55.800 --> 0:06:59.640 consciousness and and a lot of self loathing and body 0:06:59.680 --> 0:07:02.240 image issues that started at that age for me. But 0:07:02.320 --> 0:07:06.200 then I went to public school in eighth grade and 0:07:06.400 --> 0:07:08.800 I sang it like a rally. I sang either the 0:07:08.880 --> 0:07:11.840 national anthem or I sang like in a talent show 0:07:11.920 --> 0:07:15.440 or something like that, and I got to feel shiny 0:07:15.560 --> 0:07:17.880 and it was about my voice, and they didn't have 0:07:18.200 --> 0:07:20.320 my whole history attached to me. So I went to 0:07:20.360 --> 0:07:23.720 public school and was like, Oh, I'm just a normal kid. 0:07:23.880 --> 0:07:26.480 That's just like going to school and nobody's making fun 0:07:26.480 --> 0:07:28.880 of me all day, and this is kind of amazing. 0:07:29.680 --> 0:07:33.000 But a few years later, in high school, the first 0:07:33.040 --> 0:07:37.520 time I ever shared an original composition that went really poorly, 0:07:38.240 --> 0:07:40.520 and so I think for me where there was a 0:07:40.560 --> 0:07:42.840 real break there, and it was like, oh, I'm I'm 0:07:42.880 --> 0:07:45.600 good as a singer, not good as as a writer. 0:07:46.200 --> 0:07:48.720 And so I would share the singing, but I wouldn't 0:07:48.760 --> 0:07:51.760 share the writing for many years. And it wasn't until 0:07:51.760 --> 0:07:55.320 I was halfway through college before I would ever play 0:07:55.360 --> 0:07:59.120 anything for anybody. Again, isn't that interesting? Like the stories 0:07:59.160 --> 0:08:01.280 we like? This is the whole point, right, the stories 0:08:01.320 --> 0:08:04.640 that we get told about ourselves that then become our 0:08:04.640 --> 0:08:08.080 own internal voice. Right, So you have a rough experience 0:08:08.720 --> 0:08:11.720 being received in this creative output, and then the immediate 0:08:11.760 --> 0:08:13.880 story is like, I'm not good at writing and I'm 0:08:13.880 --> 0:08:17.200 not going to show the world that. It's so funny. 0:08:17.240 --> 0:08:19.840 I was thinking about in fourth grade, my my light 0:08:19.880 --> 0:08:22.840 switch went on. I had our fifth grade actually, Mrs 0:08:22.880 --> 0:08:25.280 Stetson was my teacher, and I'll remember she gave me 0:08:25.320 --> 0:08:28.720 like an extracurricular assignment to to like write a story 0:08:28.880 --> 0:08:31.239 and I could read it during lunchtime to the kids. 0:08:31.240 --> 0:08:32.840 And I don't know why she picked me to do 0:08:32.880 --> 0:08:35.520 that or what that was about, but I remember, yeah, 0:08:35.520 --> 0:08:37.280 it was so sweet, and I did it, and I 0:08:37.360 --> 0:08:41.560 remember physically feeling the love of being in front of 0:08:41.640 --> 0:08:44.640 people when they connected to my story and they laughed, 0:08:44.679 --> 0:08:48.400 and I remember like electricity in my body. Even at 0:08:48.480 --> 0:08:51.200 at ten years old, I could remember that moment. And 0:08:51.240 --> 0:08:54.720 I'm curious, when you sang that national anthem or when 0:08:54.800 --> 0:08:58.719 you first used your voice, was there a somatic experience? 0:08:58.760 --> 0:09:01.839 Do you remember what happened for you and your body? 0:09:01.840 --> 0:09:06.040 Were you conscious of that? I mean, in my mind 0:09:06.040 --> 0:09:09.480 at this moment, I remember it as heat. I think 0:09:09.520 --> 0:09:13.240 I felt flushed, I felt excited. It almost felt a 0:09:13.280 --> 0:09:16.120 tiny bit dangerous too. It was like the thrill. The 0:09:16.240 --> 0:09:19.280 thrill of having to step up to that moment and 0:09:19.360 --> 0:09:24.679 meet the moment was intoxicating, and I think it's like, 0:09:24.840 --> 0:09:26.840 you know, you get bit by the bug. And I 0:09:26.880 --> 0:09:30.679 did community theater as well, which was in my little town. 0:09:31.559 --> 0:09:35.720 Such a tremendous gift and such a safe, safe space 0:09:36.040 --> 0:09:39.520 because as theater usually is, I can't say that it 0:09:39.600 --> 0:09:42.880 always always is for everyone, but there really is such 0:09:43.559 --> 0:09:48.840 a deep devotion to inclusivity and letting people like bring 0:09:48.880 --> 0:09:51.960 your weird with you kind of thing is like it's celebrated. 0:09:52.600 --> 0:09:55.760 So I really feel like I got to enjoy being 0:09:55.800 --> 0:09:58.280 in front of people and singing and getting I got 0:09:58.280 --> 0:10:01.640 the role as for And in Charlotte's Web and got 0:10:01.679 --> 0:10:07.640 to sing my solo and which was about Cork. And 0:10:09.320 --> 0:10:11.800 I love that, you know, it's an interesting journey when 0:10:11.800 --> 0:10:14.320 we're younger, I feel like we collect a lot of 0:10:14.400 --> 0:10:17.800 stories about ourselves, but we also for me and you know, 0:10:17.840 --> 0:10:20.680 we look out at the world to see where you fit. 0:10:20.800 --> 0:10:23.040 And I love that you talked about sort of the 0:10:23.040 --> 0:10:25.360 theater community as a place where a lot of folks 0:10:25.360 --> 0:10:28.200 who don't feel like they fit can fit and do fit. 0:10:28.320 --> 0:10:30.880 And then you become this band of storytellers, like you know, 0:10:31.000 --> 0:10:35.520 sharing all of that energy and that love and that passion. 0:10:35.520 --> 0:10:37.520 Because I think about you know you as a little 0:10:37.559 --> 0:10:39.920 girl being bullied in elementary school. I had the same 0:10:39.960 --> 0:10:41.400 I mean I was a girl with the last name 0:10:41.400 --> 0:10:43.720 of Wiener, so like I was pretty much done for 0:10:43.920 --> 0:10:47.160 in in school and picked on for image issues and 0:10:47.160 --> 0:10:49.840 and then it becomes fuel in a way. I think 0:10:49.880 --> 0:10:53.240 if you become aware of your journey and you can 0:10:53.280 --> 0:10:56.320 kind of challenge it and change it. But for me, 0:10:56.440 --> 0:10:58.200 that heat that you talk about, like when you say 0:10:58.240 --> 0:11:02.120 to rise to meet the moment, Sometimes when you're rising 0:11:02.160 --> 0:11:04.400 to meet the moment of a public performance, is there 0:11:05.120 --> 0:11:07.719 do you have to battle voices that come up that 0:11:08.240 --> 0:11:11.000 start telling you something like you don't deserve to be here, 0:11:11.120 --> 0:11:13.840 Like why is this happening? Like do those voices pop up? 0:11:13.840 --> 0:11:17.920 And do you still have those voices? Oh? Yeah, absolutely, 0:11:18.080 --> 0:11:22.840 There's a reason imposter syndrome runs rampant among even the 0:11:22.880 --> 0:11:26.760 most successful people. It's just and I imagine you're right 0:11:26.880 --> 0:11:32.640 to investigate. When these seeds get planted, I feel like, somehow, 0:11:32.679 --> 0:11:34.640 inside my own life I'm going to get tapped on 0:11:34.640 --> 0:11:38.800 the shoulder and be like you, you're not you. You 0:11:38.880 --> 0:11:40.480 stuck through for a little while about and not you 0:11:40.520 --> 0:11:43.840 gotta go. But yes, I mean every big event I 0:11:43.880 --> 0:11:47.160 can ever think of. It's a little bit like stepping 0:11:47.160 --> 0:11:50.320 on the roller coaster. And and it's like I bought 0:11:50.400 --> 0:11:52.480 this book one time because I deal with a lot 0:11:52.480 --> 0:11:55.880 of anxiety and depression. It is like the churning that 0:11:55.920 --> 0:11:58.320 will be with me forever and ever. Amen. I bought 0:11:58.320 --> 0:12:01.839 this book one time on tour called Feel the Fear 0:12:01.920 --> 0:12:04.640 and Do It Anyway. And to be honest, I was 0:12:04.679 --> 0:12:07.040 like embarrassed to read it in public because I'm like, 0:12:07.120 --> 0:12:11.320 everyone knows what's going on inside. Like it's like the 0:12:11.320 --> 0:12:14.040 fact that I have this beautiful book by John Cabots 0:12:14.080 --> 0:12:17.080 in I'm a big John Cabots infant, and it's called 0:12:17.080 --> 0:12:19.960 Full Catastrophe Living, and I'm like, that's the book I'm reading. 0:12:19.960 --> 0:12:27.000 It's like, you're a mess. No secrets here, folks, but 0:12:27.200 --> 0:12:29.600 I bought this book. Feel the fear and do it anyway. 0:12:29.920 --> 0:12:32.520 It's like, the point is not to rid yourself of 0:12:32.600 --> 0:12:36.040 the voices. It's just like you let them be in 0:12:36.080 --> 0:12:38.760 the driver's seat or not. They're going to be there, 0:12:38.840 --> 0:12:43.520 they are going to come back. And so really cultivating 0:12:43.840 --> 0:12:47.440 that part of yourself that can hold space and know 0:12:47.600 --> 0:12:49.720 that two things can be true at the same time. 0:12:49.760 --> 0:12:53.960 There can be these wild assholes in my mind telling 0:12:53.960 --> 0:12:56.640 me I don't belong here, and I can still choose 0:12:56.679 --> 0:13:00.240 to belong here. Yes, I talk about have a like 0:13:00.320 --> 0:13:02.800 inviting those stories in to have a seat at the table, 0:13:02.880 --> 0:13:06.720 because for me, these dominant stories have like it's not binary. 0:13:06.920 --> 0:13:08.760 I don't think they ever go away. I think we 0:13:08.880 --> 0:13:11.679 just learned better ways to navigate through them. And why 0:13:11.679 --> 0:13:14.520 I wanted to, you know, chat with folks to who 0:13:14.559 --> 0:13:19.160 I think have achieved a kind of experience that I 0:13:19.200 --> 0:13:21.160 think a lot of people think oh well, once I 0:13:21.200 --> 0:13:23.960 get here, once I'm successful in my work, or once 0:13:23.960 --> 0:13:26.880 I'm successful in a relationship, or once I fill in 0:13:26.880 --> 0:13:29.920 the blank, then I won't have any of these feelings. 0:13:30.559 --> 0:13:33.720 And that's I think a disservice for for us on 0:13:33.760 --> 0:13:36.360 a journey, because I think everybody, like you said, and 0:13:36.720 --> 0:13:39.360 the most creative people in the world still struggle with 0:13:39.440 --> 0:13:43.000 imposter syndrome completely. I don't know if we can hear 0:13:43.040 --> 0:13:46.199 that enough. I think it's reassuring. I do too. I mean, 0:13:46.320 --> 0:13:48.840 I I think about you know, waitress is a huge 0:13:48.840 --> 0:13:51.840 part of my life, of course, and uh, I mean 0:13:51.880 --> 0:13:56.080 going through that entire process, I was like, I don't 0:13:56.120 --> 0:13:58.440 know how to do this. I don't know how to 0:13:58.559 --> 0:14:01.120 do this, and I'm just going to keep putting one 0:14:01.120 --> 0:14:04.000 ft in front of the other and trusting my collaborators 0:14:04.040 --> 0:14:09.240 and knowing that like I out of sheer will of 0:14:09.320 --> 0:14:13.000 moving forward, I will just keep going. There was no 0:14:13.160 --> 0:14:17.080 sense of like, yeah, man, I had this figured out. 0:14:17.120 --> 0:14:19.680 There just wasn't that. That was not a part of 0:14:19.720 --> 0:14:23.560 that process, And in some ways that was a large 0:14:23.600 --> 0:14:26.760 part of why that was such a rewarding process, to 0:14:27.120 --> 0:14:32.080 not to only stay in our safest spaces like um, 0:14:32.440 --> 0:14:34.520 I was in a show called I am in a 0:14:34.560 --> 0:14:37.880 show called Girls five EVA, and last season we were 0:14:38.000 --> 0:14:41.520 which I love so much. It's so good. Well, I 0:14:41.600 --> 0:14:44.160 just I loved making the show so much. It but 0:14:44.200 --> 0:14:47.520 I'm remembering. I had a monologue and it's a comedy. 0:14:47.600 --> 0:14:50.680 It's not like I was giving this deep speech, but 0:14:50.800 --> 0:14:54.200 I had this long monologue. My character was kind of 0:14:54.200 --> 0:14:59.120 losing her ship a little bit, and I was so nervous. 0:14:59.200 --> 0:15:01.080 I felt like I did don't belong there at all. 0:15:01.160 --> 0:15:04.720 I was so out of my body. And Renale Scholsberry, 0:15:04.840 --> 0:15:08.640 who is such a beautiful, beautiful soul and has become 0:15:08.680 --> 0:15:11.080 a very close friend, she was the one that had 0:15:11.080 --> 0:15:12.880 to give me the pep talk. She just like me, 0:15:13.640 --> 0:15:18.720 you listen to me, here, you belong here. You you 0:15:18.800 --> 0:15:21.400 take as much time as you need, you move from 0:15:21.480 --> 0:15:23.560 point A to point B, and we are all on 0:15:23.560 --> 0:15:25.600 this ride to support you in this moment. And don't 0:15:25.640 --> 0:15:29.960 you dare for one second apologize for how you got 0:15:30.040 --> 0:15:32.920 here or why you're here. I was like, Wow, we 0:15:33.040 --> 0:15:35.840 can gift that to each other in moments, but here 0:15:35.880 --> 0:15:38.440 I am, I'm in this show and I'm like, I 0:15:38.480 --> 0:15:41.960 don't belong here, Like it doesn't go away that incredible. 0:15:42.040 --> 0:15:46.600 It does, and the power of speaking to that voice, 0:15:46.640 --> 0:15:49.440 like or having a friend speak to that voice is 0:15:49.520 --> 0:15:53.600 so insanely awesome because sometimes we don't have the words. 0:15:53.760 --> 0:15:55.920 And she saw that, she saw through that, and she 0:15:56.000 --> 0:15:59.560 got to advocate for you. What a delight. For me, 0:15:59.680 --> 0:16:03.320 that's a deliciously dangerous part of creativity as well. I 0:16:03.320 --> 0:16:05.680 think it brings us to a brink if we're going 0:16:05.720 --> 0:16:09.840 to explore an area that is unchartered, and I think 0:16:09.880 --> 0:16:13.480 that's part of our hero Shiro's journey as creatives right 0:16:13.600 --> 0:16:16.880 is to enter into that space. But you know, perfection 0:16:17.000 --> 0:16:20.840 is the enemy of the good and I am definitely 0:16:21.080 --> 0:16:23.680 like had been the president of the perfection fan club 0:16:23.800 --> 0:16:26.080 growing up and still still struggle with that. And I'm 0:16:26.120 --> 0:16:30.800 curious what your relationship is with perfectionism. Oh gosh, it's 0:16:31.000 --> 0:16:37.880 un complicated. Yeah, it's delicate the balance between having high 0:16:37.920 --> 0:16:42.160 expectations or high standards or wanting something to be its best. 0:16:43.120 --> 0:16:46.520 And then it's really easy to get lost in sort 0:16:46.560 --> 0:16:51.120 of the ego of that too. For me, you're sort 0:16:51.120 --> 0:16:54.240 of looking for that. There's like a little bell that 0:16:54.400 --> 0:16:59.520 rings when it's truthful, when it speaks to something that 0:17:00.520 --> 0:17:06.160 has an element of vulnerability to it. It's mostly about honesty. Yeah, 0:17:06.440 --> 0:17:10.679 my my deepest intention is authenticity. But I think, you know, 0:17:11.600 --> 0:17:15.680 getting something right, I don't know. It's hard for me. 0:17:15.760 --> 0:17:18.119 It's hard in my relationship. Joe and I talked about that. 0:17:18.160 --> 0:17:20.040 My partner, Joe and I talked about that a lot. 0:17:20.160 --> 0:17:22.320 I have a real allergy to feeling like I did 0:17:22.359 --> 0:17:26.240 it wrong, or like I got something wrong, or I yeah, 0:17:26.680 --> 0:17:28.800 I don't have any good advice about that. I'm just 0:17:29.320 --> 0:17:31.960 I have to work on softening my reaction to that 0:17:32.000 --> 0:17:33.880 because I think it's of course we're going to get 0:17:33.880 --> 0:17:36.879 it wrong sometimes, but in terms of art, I think 0:17:36.960 --> 0:17:41.320 there is no right way ultimately agreed. I think it's 0:17:41.359 --> 0:17:45.440 also there's two ways I've been looking at tools for perfectionism. 0:17:45.480 --> 0:17:49.880 One is about inviting joy in because I so much 0:17:49.960 --> 0:17:55.240 forget to actually enjoy any of these processes. It's such 0:17:55.280 --> 0:17:58.720 a gift to be able to like move somebody, or 0:17:58.920 --> 0:18:01.520 create and collaborate with somebody, or like I try to 0:18:01.600 --> 0:18:05.160 focus on joy and tiny things so that I almost 0:18:05.160 --> 0:18:08.760 like refuel with that. And compassion has been my other 0:18:08.840 --> 0:18:13.200 tool because the perfectionism will like beat me to a pulp. 0:18:13.680 --> 0:18:16.600 I mean, I will go from feeling so grand to 0:18:16.680 --> 0:18:20.120 feeling so tiny. For me, that's like my my trauma 0:18:20.160 --> 0:18:23.400 response to not being perfect or not getting it right 0:18:23.560 --> 0:18:26.360 is like I immediately decimate myself so that somebody else 0:18:26.400 --> 0:18:30.760 can't decimate me. I mean, my gosh, we are we 0:18:30.800 --> 0:18:34.040 are experts at making ourselves feel small. Do you know 0:18:34.119 --> 0:18:36.359 what I mean? Like, yeah, I happened. It happened yesterday. 0:18:36.520 --> 0:18:38.399 I was with a good friend and I was just 0:18:38.440 --> 0:18:42.640 telling her about my I haven't been writing a lot 0:18:42.760 --> 0:18:46.040 and my this conversation about creativity. It's interesting it's coming 0:18:46.119 --> 0:18:51.520 up today because I haven't written a lot outside of 0:18:51.680 --> 0:18:55.080 for an assignment. It's become more of my of my 0:18:55.200 --> 0:18:58.480 process has been more assignment based. And that was that's 0:18:58.520 --> 0:19:01.080 a whole new chapter in my life, like doing things 0:19:02.080 --> 0:19:05.080 to respond to a prompt or to fit into this 0:19:05.119 --> 0:19:08.000 scene of a musical, or to be a part of 0:19:08.040 --> 0:19:10.920 this animated thing or whatever it is. And I think 0:19:10.920 --> 0:19:14.760 there's a part of me and my relationship to what 0:19:14.800 --> 0:19:18.199 I consider my muse that has suffered from that a 0:19:18.240 --> 0:19:21.000 little bit where there's like, oh, the plant needs a 0:19:21.000 --> 0:19:23.560 little watering. But I was telling her about this and 0:19:23.640 --> 0:19:27.440 she's like, can I just tell you you're being awfully 0:19:27.480 --> 0:19:30.760 hard on yourself, like you're starting at a Broadway show. 0:19:30.760 --> 0:19:33.320 You're about to start shooting this other thing. There's like 0:19:33.680 --> 0:19:37.280 all kinds of ship going on, working on another animated problem, 0:19:37.280 --> 0:19:40.439 and she's like, you're you're like getting upset with yourself 0:19:40.480 --> 0:19:44.360 for not doing more. And it was a nice light 0:19:44.400 --> 0:19:48.520 bulb moment where that compassionate voice has not been very 0:19:48.560 --> 0:19:51.600 present for me. I'm really good at making myself feel 0:19:51.600 --> 0:19:56.439 like I'm not doing enough. Yeah. Well, first of all, 0:19:56.480 --> 0:19:59.439 I love that you've got these beautiful voices around you 0:19:59.520 --> 0:20:03.159 who can flecked back to you amazing friends. Friendship is 0:20:03.200 --> 0:20:06.879 a massive bomb for being able to soothe these like 0:20:07.280 --> 0:20:13.359 kind of weary, perfectionistic voices. Well, it feels like a 0:20:13.359 --> 0:20:15.159 great time to take a little break. We're going to 0:20:15.240 --> 0:20:30.280 be right back, and we're back with this awesome conversation. 0:20:39.240 --> 0:20:41.600 The part that you said that's really like resonating for 0:20:41.680 --> 0:20:45.119 me is like the assignment based performing or like And 0:20:45.240 --> 0:20:47.920 I've also felt very similarly like I get so caught 0:20:48.000 --> 0:20:50.800 up in like work for my clients or in producing 0:20:50.880 --> 0:20:53.960 something for somebody else, that I forget how to pull 0:20:54.119 --> 0:20:57.239 for myself and just to explore and I heard you 0:20:57.280 --> 0:20:59.960 say your your muse. Can we talk about that relationship 0:21:00.080 --> 0:21:03.080 for a second, Like, how do you describe your muse 0:21:03.200 --> 0:21:05.640 or what are they? What does it sound like, what 0:21:05.680 --> 0:21:08.080 do you like? What's your relationship like with that? Because 0:21:08.080 --> 0:21:11.640 I'm so I'm so curious. I mean, songwriting for me 0:21:11.960 --> 0:21:18.000 is like worship. I am at the altar of the news, 0:21:18.200 --> 0:21:22.119 the gods of music, whatever that is. I've always felt 0:21:22.160 --> 0:21:26.520 like songwriting is my direct relationship with God. That's why 0:21:26.560 --> 0:21:30.720 I had a lot of trouble initially in finding even 0:21:30.760 --> 0:21:34.040 the sort of space or capacity for collaboration because it 0:21:34.160 --> 0:21:38.679 felt so private. It was like offensive to me that 0:21:38.840 --> 0:21:43.000 someone would as co writers get together. It's not it's 0:21:43.040 --> 0:21:46.440 not always a religious experience. It's just like sometimes they're 0:21:46.480 --> 0:21:49.240 just making things and that there's nothing wrong with that. 0:21:49.640 --> 0:21:53.600 For me, it was traumatic. It was just like you're 0:21:53.640 --> 0:21:55.880 doing surgery without anesthesia. Like I don't know, I don't 0:21:55.920 --> 0:21:58.159 know what you think you're doing, but this is not 0:21:58.200 --> 0:22:01.760 how you make music. And I since sort of learned 0:22:02.000 --> 0:22:06.040 the joys and the possibilities of collaboration. But for me, 0:22:06.200 --> 0:22:10.760 the relationship to the muses just I got the honor 0:22:10.880 --> 0:22:13.960 of being a vessel that for whatever reason when I 0:22:14.040 --> 0:22:17.880 came and I got my turn on the rock here, 0:22:18.520 --> 0:22:21.960 I got to have a voice and the capacity to 0:22:22.000 --> 0:22:26.080 tell stories with and that is isn't something I like 0:22:26.960 --> 0:22:30.439 gave to myself. It came in my suitcase. And so 0:22:30.640 --> 0:22:35.280 I feel, really I'm very reverent about honoring that. I 0:22:35.400 --> 0:22:38.479 definitely lived my life in parts of it where I 0:22:38.520 --> 0:22:42.800 have stuffed things into my physical vessels so that I 0:22:42.800 --> 0:22:46.520 wouldn't feel some of the gift that I was afraid 0:22:46.520 --> 0:22:49.720 of being, you know, rejected or ostracized by what I 0:22:49.800 --> 0:22:52.280 wanted to experience and express in the world. And so 0:22:52.359 --> 0:22:55.840 I numbed a lot of that out. And now I think, 0:22:55.880 --> 0:22:58.560 like when you talk about the collaboration with a partner, 0:22:59.119 --> 0:23:04.320 there's so much vulnerability to create in partnership. That's actually 0:23:04.400 --> 0:23:06.800 what I miss about the theater so much, was the 0:23:06.880 --> 0:23:09.880 vulnerability of all of us together and like the risk 0:23:09.920 --> 0:23:13.560 of sucking, you know, as a group. I miss sucking 0:23:13.560 --> 0:23:16.960 at dress rehearsal, like just it going so bad, you 0:23:16.960 --> 0:23:19.240 know what I mean, or like things going horribly awry 0:23:19.280 --> 0:23:21.000 and you're like, oh my god, we're never gonna make it. 0:23:21.080 --> 0:23:23.080