Speaker 1: I'm Shonda Rhymes and we're bringing the dominant Stories created
Speaker 1: about Shawn land Audio in partnership with the Dove Self
Speaker 1: Steam Project. I am exactly the way you are when
Speaker 1: you're in the feudal position, crying and you can't figure
Speaker 1: out why. I am slipping through the city, feeling lost
Speaker 1: and alone half the time, and and doing the best
Speaker 1: I can. Right. I relate to people who are just
Speaker 1: doing the best they can, and I would only like
Speaker 1: to have them think of me as the same way,
Speaker 1: because I really feel like we're all the same that way. Hey, everybody,
Speaker 1: I'm Jess Weener and this is dominant stories. Dominant stories
Speaker 1: are those stories that we tell ourselves about ourselves. They
Speaker 1: can be about our worth or our value, our body image, beauty.
Speaker 1: That could sound like I'm not good enough, I'm too
Speaker 1: old to start something new, I don't deserve this. When
Speaker 1: we don't challenge those stories, they and end up shaping
Speaker 1: the direction of our lives. They say that you often
Speaker 1: teach what you most need to learn, and in this case,
Speaker 1: I think that's true. I've been exploring and teaching around
Speaker 1: the concept of dominant stories for a while now because
Speaker 1: I have a lot of those voices, and no matter
Speaker 1: what level of success I achieve or what my relationship
Speaker 1: statuses are, those voices are still there. So I'm trying
Speaker 1: to find a way to make peace with those voices,
Speaker 1: to unpack them. In one of the ways that I
Speaker 1: find that's really effective is just talking to people. These thoughts,
Speaker 1: these dominant stories, They really thrive in secrecy and in shame.
Speaker 1: So one of the greatest tools we have is the
Speaker 1: art of conversation, and these conversations on this show are
Speaker 1: going to be vulnerable, real and actionable. So in thinking
Speaker 1: about how to kick off this our very first episode,
Speaker 1: I knew that I wanted to be in conversation with
Speaker 1: one of the most talented, sweet, kind and dear friends
Speaker 1: that I have. I am talking about the one and
Speaker 1: the only Sarah Brella. You probably know and love. Sarah's
Speaker 1: incredible work in the world. Whether you've come to love
Speaker 1: her through Love Song, the hit song that she wrote
Speaker 1: in two thousand seven, She's done incredible work for Little
Speaker 1: Voice on Apple Plus TV, two Girls, five EVA on Peacock,
Speaker 1: and of course for all of my Broadway Officion autos
Speaker 1: out there. She wrote the music and lyrics for Waitress
Speaker 1: and a lot of what Sarah does inspires us and
Speaker 1: lifts us up. But there is a truth behind her
Speaker 1: process and her relationship to creativity that I knew that
Speaker 1: I wanted us to talk about a little bit more
Speaker 1: on this show. I think we really bonded talking about
Speaker 1: how creativity manifests in our life, how it is this
Speaker 1: gorgeous opportunity to know ourselves in the world, but also
Speaker 1: to be known by the world, being seen and heard
Speaker 1: and understood to something I'm passionate about. It is something
Speaker 1: she is passionate about. So I cannot wait for you
Speaker 1: to hear this conversation with Sarah Borellis. And of course,
Speaker 1: if you like the show, let you know what you
Speaker 1: think by subscribing by writing a review wherever you listen.
Speaker 1: I can't wait to dig in. Well, hi, friend, So
Speaker 1: as I was thinking about this conversation with you today
Speaker 1: and all of the things that I wonder about around
Speaker 1: making art and being creative and taking care of ourselves
Speaker 1: in the world, especially given the world that we're currently
Speaker 1: living in. You know, you and I had a chance
Speaker 1: to talk last year. Um so in twenty twenty, as
Speaker 1: worlds were shifting quite a bit and we were all
Speaker 1: sort of reckoning with what this means for our output
Speaker 1: in the world. And and it's almost like a little
Speaker 1: over a year later, and I was thinking about the
Speaker 1: role of creativity during this time and where it saves
Speaker 1: us and where it stalls us. And first I got
Speaker 1: so I was really thinking about going in the way
Speaker 1: way back machine too, little Sarah, and like, did you
Speaker 1: think about yourself as a creative kid? Like were you
Speaker 1: aware of your love of telling a story or being
Speaker 1: creative or like making things when you were a little girl?
Speaker 1: I wonder if I was, really I wonder if kids
Speaker 1: are aware of themselves that way, you know what I mean, Like, yeah,
Speaker 1: what is partially so magical about that age and why
Speaker 1: people love being around kids because there is it's like
Speaker 1: you haven't learned to be self conscious at all in
Speaker 1: those ways, or you're not measuring yourself against the rest
Speaker 1: of the world yet. Yeah. So I don't know if
Speaker 1: I had a great awareness of it, but when I
Speaker 1: look back, I clearly was someone who had a big imagination,
Speaker 1: not only just by myself, but like that was how
Speaker 1: my friends and I played. We made movies, We created
Speaker 1: these crazy stories. And I lived on five acres of
Speaker 1: redwood forest so it was I would playing with my
Speaker 1: cousins and we would leave in the morning and come
Speaker 1: home at night, and we were we had gone on
Speaker 1: grand adventures, and we had time traveled, and we had
Speaker 1: found dinosaur bones. But I don't remember ever feeling like
Speaker 1: I knew what that was really. I think, in context
Speaker 1: of anything I do now, that's what I was thinking about,
Speaker 1: is that moment of awareness that we get around the
Speaker 1: specialty of creativity, because I remember same like I would
Speaker 1: spend mostly playing with my sister and we would make
Speaker 1: up stories all day long. And but I do remember
Speaker 1: at some point when kids start to break off and
Speaker 1: people give you labels for the things that you're quote
Speaker 1: unquote good at, right when she becomes the athlete or
Speaker 1: he becomes the math superstar or whatever. I remember then
Speaker 1: I became height more heightened and aware of where I
Speaker 1: should fit in. Did it feel like that for you?
Speaker 1: I think it had to do with my singing voice.
Speaker 1: That was the first thing that was like sort of
Speaker 1: the marker, and what I got I got validated for,
Speaker 1: I suppose, and it's the thing that made me special.
Speaker 1: I think what was interesting in reflection on it now
Speaker 1: is that it was a really self conscious kid. I
Speaker 1: got teased a lot in elementary school. It was a
Speaker 1: really uncomfortable time of always feeling like it was a
Speaker 1: I went to Catholic school. I went it was a
Speaker 1: really small class, and it was almost like I couldn't
Speaker 1: trust that anyone was quite my friend because they would
Speaker 1: turn on and I was like, they'd be nice to
Speaker 1: me one minute, and then they turned on it. That's
Speaker 1: just sort of the nature of the little beasts that
Speaker 1: got that age. Yes, there was a lot of self
Speaker 1: consciousness and and a lot of self loathing and body
Speaker 1: image issues that started at that age for me. But
Speaker 1: then I went to public school in eighth grade and
Speaker 1: I sang it like a rally. I sang either the
Speaker 1: national anthem or I sang like in a talent show
Speaker 1: or something like that, and I got to feel shiny
Speaker 1: and it was about my voice, and they didn't have
Speaker 1: my whole history attached to me. So I went to
Speaker 1: public school and was like, Oh, I'm just a normal kid.
Speaker 1: That's just like going to school and nobody's making fun
Speaker 1: of me all day, and this is kind of amazing.
Speaker 1: But a few years later, in high school, the first
Speaker 1: time I ever shared an original composition that went really poorly,
Speaker 1: and so I think for me where there was a
Speaker 1: real break there, and it was like, oh, I'm I'm
Speaker 1: good as a singer, not good as as a writer.
Speaker 1: And so I would share the singing, but I wouldn't
Speaker 1: share the writing for many years. And it wasn't until
Speaker 1: I was halfway through college before I would ever play
Speaker 1: anything for anybody. Again, isn't that interesting? Like the stories
Speaker 1: we like? This is the whole point, right, the stories
Speaker 1: that we get told about ourselves that then become our
Speaker 1: own internal voice. Right, So you have a rough experience
Speaker 1: being received in this creative output, and then the immediate
Speaker 1: story is like, I'm not good at writing and I'm
Speaker 1: not going to show the world that. It's so funny.
Speaker 1: I was thinking about in fourth grade, my my light
Speaker 1: switch went on. I had our fifth grade actually, Mrs
Speaker 1: Stetson was my teacher, and I'll remember she gave me
Speaker 1: like an extracurricular assignment to to like write a story
Speaker 1: and I could read it during lunchtime to the kids.
Speaker 1: And I don't know why she picked me to do
Speaker 1: that or what that was about, but I remember, yeah,
Speaker 1: it was so sweet, and I did it, and I
Speaker 1: remember physically feeling the love of being in front of
Speaker 1: people when they connected to my story and they laughed,
Speaker 1: and I remember like electricity in my body. Even at
Speaker 1: at ten years old, I could remember that moment. And
Speaker 1: I'm curious, when you sang that national anthem or when
Speaker 1: you first used your voice, was there a somatic experience?
Speaker 1: Do you remember what happened for you and your body?
Speaker 1: Were you conscious of that? I mean, in my mind
Speaker 1: at this moment, I remember it as heat. I think
Speaker 1: I felt flushed, I felt excited. It almost felt a
Speaker 1: tiny bit dangerous too. It was like the thrill. The
Speaker 1: thrill of having to step up to that moment and
Speaker 1: meet the moment was intoxicating, and I think it's like,
Speaker 1: you know, you get bit by the bug. And I
Speaker 1: did community theater as well, which was in my little town.
Speaker 1: Such a tremendous gift and such a safe, safe space
Speaker 1: because as theater usually is, I can't say that it
Speaker 1: always always is for everyone, but there really is such
Speaker 1: a deep devotion to inclusivity and letting people like bring
Speaker 1: your weird with you kind of thing is like it's celebrated.
Speaker 1: So I really feel like I got to enjoy being
Speaker 1: in front of people and singing and getting I got
Speaker 1: the role as for And in Charlotte's Web and got
Speaker 1: to sing my solo and which was about Cork. And
Speaker 1: I love that, you know, it's an interesting journey when
Speaker 1: we're younger, I feel like we collect a lot of
Speaker 1: stories about ourselves, but we also for me and you know,
Speaker 1: we look out at the world to see where you fit.
Speaker 1: And I love that you talked about sort of the
Speaker 1: theater community as a place where a lot of folks
Speaker 1: who don't feel like they fit can fit and do fit.
Speaker 1: And then you become this band of storytellers, like you know,
Speaker 1: sharing all of that energy and that love and that passion.
Speaker 1: Because I think about you know you as a little
Speaker 1: girl being bullied in elementary school. I had the same
Speaker 1: I mean I was a girl with the last name
Speaker 1: of Wiener, so like I was pretty much done for
Speaker 1: in in school and picked on for image issues and
Speaker 1: and then it becomes fuel in a way. I think
Speaker 1: if you become aware of your journey and you can
Speaker 1: kind of challenge it and change it. But for me,
Speaker 1: that heat that you talk about, like when you say
Speaker 1: to rise to meet the moment, Sometimes when you're rising
Speaker 1: to meet the moment of a public performance, is there
Speaker 1: do you have to battle voices that come up that
Speaker 1: start telling you something like you don't deserve to be here,
Speaker 1: Like why is this happening? Like do those voices pop up?
Speaker 1: And do you still have those voices? Oh? Yeah, absolutely,
Speaker 1: There's a reason imposter syndrome runs rampant among even the
Speaker 1: most successful people. It's just and I imagine you're right
Speaker 1: to investigate. When these seeds get planted, I feel like, somehow,
Speaker 1: inside my own life I'm going to get tapped on
Speaker 1: the shoulder and be like you, you're not you. You
Speaker 1: stuck through for a little while about and not you
Speaker 1: gotta go. But yes, I mean every big event I
Speaker 1: can ever think of. It's a little bit like stepping
Speaker 1: on the roller coaster. And and it's like I bought
Speaker 1: this book one time because I deal with a lot
Speaker 1: of anxiety and depression. It is like the churning that
Speaker 1: will be with me forever and ever. Amen. I bought
Speaker 1: this book one time on tour called Feel the Fear
Speaker 1: and Do It Anyway. And to be honest, I was
Speaker 1: like embarrassed to read it in public because I'm like,
Speaker 1: everyone knows what's going on inside. Like it's like the
Speaker 1: fact that I have this beautiful book by John Cabots
Speaker 1: in I'm a big John Cabots infant, and it's called
Speaker 1: Full Catastrophe Living, and I'm like, that's the book I'm reading.
Speaker 1: It's like, you're a mess. No secrets here, folks, but
Speaker 1: I bought this book. Feel the fear and do it anyway.
Speaker 1: It's like, the point is not to rid yourself of
Speaker 1: the voices. It's just like you let them be in
Speaker 1: the driver's seat or not. They're going to be there,
Speaker 1: they are going to come back. And so really cultivating
Speaker 1: that part of yourself that can hold space and know
Speaker 1: that two things can be true at the same time.
Speaker 1: There can be these wild assholes in my mind telling
Speaker 1: me I don't belong here, and I can still choose
Speaker 1: to belong here. Yes, I talk about have a like
Speaker 1: inviting those stories in to have a seat at the table,
Speaker 1: because for me, these dominant stories have like it's not binary.
Speaker 1: I don't think they ever go away. I think we
Speaker 1: just learned better ways to navigate through them. And why
Speaker 1: I wanted to, you know, chat with folks to who
Speaker 1: I think have achieved a kind of experience that I
Speaker 1: think a lot of people think oh well, once I
Speaker 1: get here, once I'm successful in my work, or once
Speaker 1: I'm successful in a relationship, or once I fill in
Speaker 1: the blank, then I won't have any of these feelings.
Speaker 1: And that's I think a disservice for for us on
Speaker 1: a journey, because I think everybody, like you said, and
Speaker 1: the most creative people in the world still struggle with
Speaker 1: imposter syndrome completely. I don't know if we can hear
Speaker 1: that enough. I think it's reassuring. I do too. I mean,
Speaker 1: I I think about you know, waitress is a huge
Speaker 1: part of my life, of course, and uh, I mean
Speaker 1: going through that entire process, I was like, I don't
Speaker 1: know how to do this. I don't know how to
Speaker 1: do this, and I'm just going to keep putting one
Speaker 1: ft in front of the other and trusting my collaborators
Speaker 1: and knowing that like I out of sheer will of
Speaker 1: moving forward, I will just keep going. There was no
Speaker 1: sense of like, yeah, man, I had this figured out.
Speaker 1: There just wasn't that. That was not a part of
Speaker 1: that process, And in some ways that was a large
Speaker 1: part of why that was such a rewarding process, to
Speaker 1: not to only stay in our safest spaces like um,
Speaker 1: I was in a show called I am in a
Speaker 1: show called Girls five EVA, and last season we were
Speaker 1: which I love so much. It's so good. Well, I
Speaker 1: just I loved making the show so much. It but
Speaker 1: I'm remembering. I had a monologue and it's a comedy.
Speaker 1: It's not like I was giving this deep speech, but
Speaker 1: I had this long monologue. My character was kind of
Speaker 1: losing her ship a little bit, and I was so nervous.
Speaker 1: I felt like I did don't belong there at all.
Speaker 1: I was so out of my body. And Renale Scholsberry,
Speaker 1: who is such a beautiful, beautiful soul and has become
Speaker 1: a very close friend, she was the one that had
Speaker 1: to give me the pep talk. She just like me,
Speaker 1: you listen to me, here, you belong here. You you
Speaker 1: take as much time as you need, you move from
Speaker 1: point A to point B, and we are all on
Speaker 1: this ride to support you in this moment. And don't
Speaker 1: you dare for one second apologize for how you got
Speaker 1: here or why you're here. I was like, Wow, we
Speaker 1: can gift that to each other in moments, but here
Speaker 1: I am, I'm in this show and I'm like, I
Speaker 1: don't belong here, Like it doesn't go away that incredible.
Speaker 1: It does, and the power of speaking to that voice,
Speaker 1: like or having a friend speak to that voice is
Speaker 1: so insanely awesome because sometimes we don't have the words.
Speaker 1: And she saw that, she saw through that, and she
Speaker 1: got to advocate for you. What a delight. For me,
Speaker 1: that's a deliciously dangerous part of creativity as well. I
Speaker 1: think it brings us to a brink if we're going
Speaker 1: to explore an area that is unchartered, and I think
Speaker 1: that's part of our hero Shiro's journey as creatives right
Speaker 1: is to enter into that space. But you know, perfection
Speaker 1: is the enemy of the good and I am definitely
Speaker 1: like had been the president of the perfection fan club
Speaker 1: growing up and still still struggle with that. And I'm
Speaker 1: curious what your relationship is with perfectionism. Oh gosh, it's
Speaker 1: un complicated. Yeah, it's delicate the balance between having high
Speaker 1: expectations or high standards or wanting something to be its best.
Speaker 1: And then it's really easy to get lost in sort
Speaker 1: of the ego of that too. For me, you're sort
Speaker 1: of looking for that. There's like a little bell that
Speaker 1: rings when it's truthful, when it speaks to something that
Speaker 1: has an element of vulnerability to it. It's mostly about honesty. Yeah,
Speaker 1: my my deepest intention is authenticity. But I think, you know,
Speaker 1: getting something right, I don't know. It's hard for me.
Speaker 1: It's hard in my relationship. Joe and I talked about that.
Speaker 1: My partner, Joe and I talked about that a lot.
Speaker 1: I have a real allergy to feeling like I did
Speaker 1: it wrong, or like I got something wrong, or I yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't have any good advice about that. I'm just
Speaker 1: I have to work on softening my reaction to that
Speaker 1: because I think it's of course we're going to get
Speaker 1: it wrong sometimes, but in terms of art, I think
Speaker 1: there is no right way ultimately agreed. I think it's
Speaker 1: also there's two ways I've been looking at tools for perfectionism.
Speaker 1: One is about inviting joy in because I so much
Speaker 1: forget to actually enjoy any of these processes. It's such
Speaker 1: a gift to be able to like move somebody, or
Speaker 1: create and collaborate with somebody, or like I try to
Speaker 1: focus on joy and tiny things so that I almost
Speaker 1: like refuel with that. And compassion has been my other
Speaker 1: tool because the perfectionism will like beat me to a pulp.
Speaker 1: I mean, I will go from feeling so grand to
Speaker 1: feeling so tiny. For me, that's like my my trauma
Speaker 1: response to not being perfect or not getting it right
Speaker 1: is like I immediately decimate myself so that somebody else
Speaker 1: can't decimate me. I mean, my gosh, we are we
Speaker 1: are experts at making ourselves feel small. Do you know
Speaker 1: what I mean? Like, yeah, I happened. It happened yesterday.
Speaker 1: I was with a good friend and I was just
Speaker 1: telling her about my I haven't been writing a lot
Speaker 1: and my this conversation about creativity. It's interesting it's coming
Speaker 1: up today because I haven't written a lot outside of
Speaker 1: for an assignment. It's become more of my of my
Speaker 1: process has been more assignment based. And that was that's
Speaker 1: a whole new chapter in my life, like doing things
Speaker 1: to respond to a prompt or to fit into this
Speaker 1: scene of a musical, or to be a part of
Speaker 1: this animated thing or whatever it is. And I think
Speaker 1: there's a part of me and my relationship to what
Speaker 1: I consider my muse that has suffered from that a
Speaker 1: little bit where there's like, oh, the plant needs a
Speaker 1: little watering. But I was telling her about this and
Speaker 1: she's like, can I just tell you you're being awfully
Speaker 1: hard on yourself, like you're starting at a Broadway show.
Speaker 1: You're about to start shooting this other thing. There's like
Speaker 1: all kinds of ship going on, working on another animated problem,
Speaker 1: and she's like, you're you're like getting upset with yourself
Speaker 1: for not doing more. And it was a nice light
Speaker 1: bulb moment where that compassionate voice has not been very
Speaker 1: present for me. I'm really good at making myself feel
Speaker 1: like I'm not doing enough. Yeah. Well, first of all,
Speaker 1: I love that you've got these beautiful voices around you
Speaker 1: who can flecked back to you amazing friends. Friendship is
Speaker 1: a massive bomb for being able to soothe these like
Speaker 1: kind of weary, perfectionistic voices. Well, it feels like a
Speaker 1: great time to take a little break. We're going to
Speaker 1: be right back, and we're back with this awesome conversation.
Speaker 1: The part that you said that's really like resonating for
Speaker 1: me is like the assignment based performing or like And
Speaker 1: I've also felt very similarly like I get so caught
Speaker 1: up in like work for my clients or in producing
Speaker 1: something for somebody else, that I forget how to pull
Speaker 1: for myself and just to explore and I heard you
Speaker 1: say your your muse. Can we talk about that relationship
Speaker 1: for a second, Like, how do you describe your muse
Speaker 1: or what are they? What does it sound like, what
Speaker 1: do you like? What's your relationship like with that? Because
Speaker 1: I'm so I'm so curious. I mean, songwriting for me
Speaker 1: is like worship. I am at the altar of the news,
Speaker 1: the gods of music, whatever that is. I've always felt
Speaker 1: like songwriting is my direct relationship with God. That's why
Speaker 1: I had a lot of trouble initially in finding even
Speaker 1: the sort of space or capacity for collaboration because it
Speaker 1: felt so private. It was like offensive to me that
Speaker 1: someone would as co writers get together. It's not it's
Speaker 1: not always a religious experience. It's just like sometimes they're
Speaker 1: just making things and that there's nothing wrong with that.
Speaker 1: For me, it was traumatic. It was just like you're
Speaker 1: doing surgery without anesthesia. Like I don't know, I don't
Speaker 1: know what you think you're doing, but this is not
Speaker 1: how you make music. And I since sort of learned
Speaker 1: the joys and the possibilities of collaboration. But for me,
Speaker 1: the relationship to the muses just I got the honor
Speaker 1: of being a vessel that for whatever reason when I
Speaker 1: came and I got my turn on the rock here,
Speaker 1: I got to have a voice and the capacity to
Speaker 1: tell stories with and that is isn't something I like
Speaker 1: gave to myself. It came in my suitcase. And so
Speaker 1: I feel, really I'm very reverent about honoring that. I
Speaker 1: definitely lived my life in parts of it where I
Speaker 1: have stuffed things into my physical vessels so that I
Speaker 1: wouldn't feel some of the gift that I was afraid
Speaker 1: of being, you know, rejected or ostracized by what I
Speaker 1: wanted to experience and express in the world. And so
Speaker 1: I numbed a lot of that out. And now I think,
Speaker 1: like when you talk about the collaboration with a partner,
Speaker 1: there's so much vulnerability to create in partnership. That's actually
Speaker 1: what I miss about the theater so much, was the
Speaker 1: vulnerability of all of us together and like the risk
Speaker 1: of sucking, you know, as a group. I miss sucking
Speaker 1: at dress rehearsal, like just it going so bad, you
Speaker 1: know what I mean, or like things going horribly awry
Speaker 1: and you're like, oh my god, we're never gonna make it.
Speaker 1: This is never gonna work. And then the you know,
Speaker 1: it happens the magic happens. The magic always happens. It's
Speaker 1: just incredible. It's the greatest team sport. It's so that's
Speaker 1: what I love about it too. It is a shared
Speaker 1: experience and it doesn't matter if you're the star of
Speaker 1: the show or whatever. It doesn't happen without each other
Speaker 1: up there just don't know, And it doesn't happen without
Speaker 1: a bump and it going awry, like it's not that
Speaker 1: perfect journey. And I like so the process like of
Speaker 1: shaping of editing. But I find like when I'm most
Speaker 1: scared or I'm most unsure that it's going to resonate
Speaker 1: is typically the thing that resonates the most with people,
Speaker 1: because I feel like it brings me to the brink
Speaker 1: of like my own comfort, Like then i know I'm
Speaker 1: onto something. When it scares me a little bit, it
Speaker 1: makes me think of there's a song from Waitress called
Speaker 1: She Used to Be Mine, and I was playing it
Speaker 1: in concert before it was ever a part of the show.
Speaker 1: I mean, i'd written it for the show and I
Speaker 1: was sharing with my audiences of like, I'm working on
Speaker 1: this project. This is a song from it. But I
Speaker 1: remember feeling incredibly self conscious because there's a lyric where
Speaker 1: she actually says the word pie where she's like she's
Speaker 1: all of this mixed up and baked in a beautiful pie.
Speaker 1: And as just a pop artist out on a concert circuit,
Speaker 1: I'm like playing those words and I'm like, am I embarrassed?
Speaker 1: Is that what's coming? But then get to the end
Speaker 1: of the song and it's like, clearly something about that
Speaker 1: song resonates for people in a really deep level. But
Speaker 1: I remember the first time I played it, I was
Speaker 1: like very self conscious about it, and it's just a
Speaker 1: reminder to keep just keep pushing into those places. It
Speaker 1: is so true. Well, you no remember I texted you
Speaker 1: that one day and I was like, I'm listening to
Speaker 1: all your music while I'm writing these new things that
Speaker 1: scared me, So that song was on repeat for me.
Speaker 1: That song, for me, it unlocks the little that little
Speaker 1: voice inside of me, which is another thing that you
Speaker 1: wrote about, right, So, and I kept listening to it
Speaker 1: because that's who I was trying to reach, the newer
Speaker 1: version of me. Um. I was going to ask you
Speaker 1: speaking of little voice, which is also an incredible I
Speaker 1: loved that story and and the music in that show
Speaker 1: when you were I keep going back to childhood just
Speaker 1: for that unfettered before you were in the industry time.
Speaker 1: But like, what were the stories that little Sarah wanted
Speaker 1: to tell, like high school, college, Like before you flip
Speaker 1: into industry mode when you weren't doing this professionally, did
Speaker 1: you have a were there stories that you wanted to tell? Evince,
Speaker 1: since you were a little person on this plan it.
Speaker 1: I think I was always enamored with the sort of
Speaker 1: finding your voice story even in films and television and stuff,
Speaker 1: like anything that had a young girl for me, which
Speaker 1: is who I identified the most closely with. Seeing a
Speaker 1: young girl find courage and strength, discovering the ability to
Speaker 1: sort of stand up for themselves was always something that
Speaker 1: really resonated. Like The Secret Garden was a story that
Speaker 1: I loved, and that was the first musical I ever saw,
Speaker 1: like a big musical. I saw it in Fan francisc
Speaker 1: Going for and the power of a little Girl because
Speaker 1: she's a she's a truth teller, even though she's a
Speaker 1: brat and she's a pain in the ass, but she's
Speaker 1: a drewth teller. Ultimately is what is happening and the
Speaker 1: magic that becomes unlocked because she is unwilling to give
Speaker 1: up on this path, and I think that that was
Speaker 1: something that and still very much resonates with me. Those
Speaker 1: are the stories I'm the most interested in telling. Gosh
Speaker 1: Friends same And actually I wonder sometimes if my desire
Speaker 1: because I always was very drawn to the underdog, the
Speaker 1: girl discovering against all odds how amazing she is in
Speaker 1: a world that didn't think she was. And I actually
Speaker 1: think a lot of that was a response to the
Speaker 1: bullying that I experienced as well when I was younger,
Speaker 1: because I would always fantasize when I was sitting in
Speaker 1: my classroom with kids that were being jerks. I've never
Speaker 1: said this out loud. This is going to be more
Speaker 1: defined by IM mis say it anyway, Because I love you.
Speaker 1: I would sit in this classroom and I would fantasize
Speaker 1: my celebrity crushes, which, by the way, at the time
Speaker 1: was I loved like sitcom stars like Ricky Schroeder, Kirk Cameron.
Speaker 1: He's canceled for me, but anyway, understand. But I would
Speaker 1: imagine the people that I love from TV coming into
Speaker 1: the classroom and being like, you're yes. I had the
Speaker 1: same fantasy these or they would like say to a
Speaker 1: mean girl, yeah, bitch, I love her, you know what
Speaker 1: I mean? Yes, I think now the difference in my
Speaker 1: life's work is I'm trying to rescue myself. I'm trying
Speaker 1: to come into that room myself and be like enough.
Speaker 1: And now those voices are not just from outside people.
Speaker 1: They became my internal voices. And that's a big part
Speaker 1: of my works journey is like, how do I have
Speaker 1: a conversation now where I can you know, advocate and
Speaker 1: love myself. I miss some of that purity in the
Speaker 1: journey of these stories. You too, Oh, it's so sweet
Speaker 1: to revisit like all this time because it's the same
Speaker 1: I think. When I really think about those fixations on
Speaker 1: love and even romance at such a young age, when
Speaker 1: you don't really have a deep understanding, it's about feeling special.
Speaker 1: You just want to feel seen and feel special and
Speaker 1: feel um chosen. I wanted to match totally, totally. I
Speaker 1: wanted to be somebody's special person. And I think I
Speaker 1: mean a lot of women girls who have grown up
Speaker 1: in a traditional societal upbringing around gender roles, like that's
Speaker 1: also a part that's been expressed for us, right, Like
Speaker 1: that was the way I derived value was by being
Speaker 1: chosen by somebody else, you know. And that's actually an
Speaker 1: interesting kind of question now around like the fame in
Speaker 1: the world that you're in and the the unlock that
Speaker 1: you get as a creative artist when you achieve a
Speaker 1: level of success and you and more people know you,
Speaker 1: more people choose you. I'm curious, like what that has
Speaker 1: felt like for you internally as you've climbed, Like how
Speaker 1: you've traversed the growth of fame and celebrity And do
Speaker 1: you even think about it like that? Sure, I mean
Speaker 1: I definitely think about it. I was a little older.
Speaker 1: I was in my eight twenties when I when my
Speaker 1: first record came out, and so thankfully I was a
Speaker 1: little more set in who I knew myself to be
Speaker 1: when I encountered the industry for the first time. I
Speaker 1: think had I been younger and even more impressionable and
Speaker 1: less sure of who Sarah really is, yeah, I would
Speaker 1: have had a much harder time. But I think I've
Speaker 1: always really related to the underdog story, and I never
Speaker 1: had There was no like rocket ship for me. It
Speaker 1: was always a real slow burn. Even if it felt
Speaker 1: like from the outside in it looked like wow, this
Speaker 1: like took off, it really didn't not from the inside.
Speaker 1: I played hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of shows before
Speaker 1: anything ever happened, and so there was this relationship to
Speaker 1: the work. When I think about young artists now and
Speaker 1: when people ask advice, my advice is all always like,
Speaker 1: go play, go play, go play, go play. It is
Speaker 1: not about the discovery of the next best hook that's
Speaker 1: going to be the number one song on whatever. If
Speaker 1: you really want a relationship to your creativity and to
Speaker 1: an artistic life, if that is something that is important
Speaker 1: to you, you have some work to do. It takes
Speaker 1: time to discover and to unearthed what your artistry is
Speaker 1: all about. And it doesn't happen overnight. It is not
Speaker 1: a fast process. It is a slow burn. And I
Speaker 1: think that I was very fortunate that my first record
Speaker 1: brought a lot of crazy success and travel and tours
Speaker 1: and stuff that nobody, including my record label, was anticipating.
Speaker 1: We were all betting against me. Let's be honest, But
Speaker 1: I I same. I had a lot of trepidation about fame.
Speaker 1: I had a lot of real fear about fame because
Speaker 1: I always felt like, I don't want to be famous.
Speaker 1: I want to be an artist who makes things. I
Speaker 1: don't look at the lifestyle of someone that can't leave
Speaker 1: their house without people following them. That is not for me.
Speaker 1: I don't want it. I don't never coveted that, no,
Speaker 1: thank you. It's it looks like a prison to me.
Speaker 1: And I'm a claustrophobic person anyway. So it's like the
Speaker 1: idea that there would be limitations on how I can
Speaker 1: move through the world makes me very, very uncomfortable. So
Speaker 1: I've been so fortunate in that way where like I
Speaker 1: don't have trouble moving through the world, but I get
Speaker 1: to make things I love. Fame is smoking, Mirrors is
Speaker 1: smoke and mirrors, And so I think really rooting in
Speaker 1: the humanity of the people you make things with, why
Speaker 1: are you making the thing you're making for me? It's
Speaker 1: just about getting really right with what are you in
Speaker 1: alignment about. Don't you think our relationship though with fame
Speaker 1: or are thinking about celebrity has shifted so much with
Speaker 1: social media because I also imagine now, like when you
Speaker 1: talk about it being a slow burn, you know, there's
Speaker 1: a generation growing up where like that slow burn doesn't exist.
Speaker 1: You pushed a video and it's viral tomorrow. There's no
Speaker 1: such thing. There's an expectation that I put this work
Speaker 1: out in the world and I should be famous tomorrow.
Speaker 1: But there's also an expectation that fame somehow is going
Speaker 1: to feed all those parts of you that feel empty
Speaker 1: and hollow. Well, and then I always ask people like,
Speaker 1: what does that mean to you to be famous? Because
Speaker 1: people will say I want to be famous, m what
Speaker 1: does that mean to you? Does it mean money? Because
Speaker 1: I think it's just about money and recognition, which again,
Speaker 1: I mean money is complicated. I mean it's it is
Speaker 1: helpful in a lot of in a lot of wonderful ways,
Speaker 1: but it also comes with a lot of complications too.
Speaker 1: And then being you know, having people know who you are, well,
Speaker 1: that's complicated too. It's all complicated. It is all complicated.
Speaker 1: But that's why I want us to examine those those
Speaker 1: same questions about your relationship with your art and your
Speaker 1: trajectory in that way because I can imagine there might
Speaker 1: be people listening, because I think like I would probably
Speaker 1: been thinking this a while ago without some of the
Speaker 1: life experience I had, which is like, well, if you
Speaker 1: don't want to be like super super famous, and like
Speaker 1: what are you going for? Right? Because always I felt
Speaker 1: like the trajectory was icon level, right, Like you know
Speaker 1: you can't leave your house kind of fame. I don't
Speaker 1: know if we thought about, like what is it that
Speaker 1: I want? Then? Right? And I love that you said
Speaker 1: two things that I heard was like freedom and flexibility
Speaker 1: to move in the world, and the freedom and opportunity
Speaker 1: to make the things that you want to make. But
Speaker 1: does does your relationship and understanding now fame and celebrity,
Speaker 1: does it shift what your goals are? Yeah? I think
Speaker 1: the times that I have gotten close to people who
Speaker 1: really exists on that sort of stratosphere, there's nothing there
Speaker 1: for me personally. There might be something there for someone else,
Speaker 1: but it's not right. I don't want that life. I
Speaker 1: see a tremendous amount of overwhelmed people get so they
Speaker 1: put so much on you as a public figure. I
Speaker 1: mean I experienced that to a very small degree, and
Speaker 1: sometimes it's overwhelming that someone has given me an extraordinary
Speaker 1: amount of power in their lives, and it's a little
Speaker 1: bit like I actually can't meet that, Like I've just
Speaker 1: I'm a mess. I don't I don't write like truly
Speaker 1: a mess. You're gonna want to rethink that you have
Speaker 1: to pick somebody else, But you know what, I what
Speaker 1: I do appreciate. I was thinking about this too with you,
Speaker 1: like you've just ablished such an authentic rapport with your
Speaker 1: fans and the people who admire your work. Was that
Speaker 1: thought out by you to share some of the inner
Speaker 1: workings of your life more publicly so that there's almost
Speaker 1: a protection built in, quite frankly, of like, listen, I'm
Speaker 1: going to share more about who I am, so you
Speaker 1: stop building an unrealistic expectation about me or was it like, also,
Speaker 1: just did you need to do it? Because that's your truth? Truly?
Speaker 1: And this is I am to a fault someone who
Speaker 1: like I have a real allergy to an authenticity. And
Speaker 1: it's not it's not cute all the time. It's like
Speaker 1: I'm the person who's like saying the thing that's like
Speaker 1: a little it's like, do you have tact like are
Speaker 1: you not? Like I don't really have a poker face,
Speaker 1: and I'm I'm not interested in projecting any kind of
Speaker 1: image of something I'm not. I'm just don't have I
Speaker 1: don't want the pressure of living up to that kind
Speaker 1: of an expectation. So I would rather remind people that
Speaker 1: like I am exactly the way you are when you're
Speaker 1: in the feudal position, crying and you can't figure out
Speaker 1: why I am slipping through the city, gent feeling lost
Speaker 1: and alone half the time and and doing the best
Speaker 1: I can. Right. I relate to people who are just
Speaker 1: doing the best they can, and I would only like
Speaker 1: to have them think of me as the same way,
Speaker 1: because I really feel like we're all the same that way.
Speaker 1: Take a moment, reflect on what you've heard, and we'll
Speaker 1: be right back. Welcome back to dominant Stories. Let's pick
Speaker 1: up right where we left off. One of the things
Speaker 1: that is awesome actually about and I like this about
Speaker 1: having professional success as or having is that it brings
Speaker 1: opportunities and then really cool doors can open to meet
Speaker 1: awesome people are collaborate in certain ways, and but one
Speaker 1: of the things I've struggled with is saying no to
Speaker 1: opportunity when for so long those doors weren't open, and
Speaker 1: when they started to open for you, and when you
Speaker 1: get asked to do a lot of things that I
Speaker 1: imagine you do, how do you navigate your boundaries of
Speaker 1: self care and protection and saying no but also being
Speaker 1: really like, you know, excited about being chosen, being asked,
Speaker 1: that's a hard part of the process. The first time
Speaker 1: it happened, I got into a complete state of overwhelm
Speaker 1: and was just wrung out. I had said yes to everything,
Speaker 1: and I think when, especially when you're new in your
Speaker 1: career and you are getting opportunities for the first time,
Speaker 1: there is a part of you that does have to
Speaker 1: say yes, you have to go to these places for
Speaker 1: the first time and then. But I think the mistake
Speaker 1: that I made was not quite picking up on my
Speaker 1: own signal else that like, oh, I'm actually breaking down
Speaker 1: a little bit in this. I am too exhausted to
Speaker 1: meet the moment. We're in Paris and I can't leave
Speaker 1: the hotel room because I'm literally too physically exhausted to
Speaker 1: even go see the Eiffel Debt, Like that's not the
Speaker 1: quality of experience. Why go like it? Just save it
Speaker 1: for another time. But I understand the fear of that
Speaker 1: it might not come again. But boundaries have been an
Speaker 1: incredible tool, Like I don't think you can do this
Speaker 1: life successfully without boundaries. I think I still run into
Speaker 1: that problem. I put too much on my plate because
Speaker 1: I have this amazing privilege of wonderful projects that come
Speaker 1: to me and I don't want to say no to anything.
Speaker 1: But again, it's like the Eiffel Tower in Paris. I'm
Speaker 1: not going to see it because I can't. It's like
Speaker 1: we were talking about joy. There's no joy in doing
Speaker 1: things from a place of overwhelmed. There's no joy there.
Speaker 1: So I don't want to do that, you know, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I was. I was talking to my friend um leve
Speaker 1: a Giant Jones, and she was saying that she's got
Speaker 1: like a system of questions that she asks herself when
Speaker 1: opportunities come before her. She asked like five questions and
Speaker 1: then she says if she says yes to three out
Speaker 1: of the five, she'll do the experience. And I adapted
Speaker 1: it for myself, so I asked myself, like, will this
Speaker 1: bring me joy? Does my soul aligned to this? Can
Speaker 1: I be of service in this situation? Does this help
Speaker 1: me financially? If that's also still a part of like,
Speaker 1: you know, motivation, Like sure I still live in this
Speaker 1: capitalistic world? And then the fifth one is will I
Speaker 1: learned something new in this experience? And you realize like,
Speaker 1: oh wow, No, it doesn't bring me joy. Yes, it
Speaker 1: might bring me money, but no, I don't know if
Speaker 1: I'm gonna learn anything new, Like it starts to give
Speaker 1: you a roadmap of saying no, because saying no it's
Speaker 1: very hard for me as a people pleaser. I'm sure
Speaker 1: it is, and especially with the amount of philanthropic requests
Speaker 1: that come through, there's so much being of service. But
Speaker 1: that has been a hard lesson for me as well
Speaker 1: as like I have gotten to a place at times
Speaker 1: where it's like I'm actually not even doing it from
Speaker 1: the right place anymore because I'm so overwhelmed or exhausted
Speaker 1: or I'm just trying to get it off the list.
Speaker 1: And then you have to really ask yourself, is this
Speaker 1: how I want to show up in these places? I
Speaker 1: also think our capacity to say yes to things for
Speaker 1: me was impacted when I got into a relationship with
Speaker 1: my husband. My type, availability and the priority around it shifted.
Speaker 1: He's my favorite person to spend time with. And I'm
Speaker 1: curious that that shifted for you as love has come
Speaker 1: into your life and you've been sharing that, you know
Speaker 1: more publicly with folks. Did this relationship with Joe like
Speaker 1: alter a little bit about how you prioritized your space
Speaker 1: and giving yourself more time to enjoy love. Yeah, it's been,
Speaker 1: I think because they become your favorite people and you're
Speaker 1: just like, it's so easy because it's built into the
Speaker 1: structure of your life that you're just around them. I
Speaker 1: have to continually come back to prioritizing I'm someone who
Speaker 1: needs a lot of alone time, and as an artist
Speaker 1: about something that I have realized, it's really important for
Speaker 1: my creative process for me to be actually physically alone.
Speaker 1: And so it's hard when you're like, oh, wait, you
Speaker 1: want to get pizza and you're so cute. Yeah, you're
Speaker 1: so cute, and that so much and so I mean,
Speaker 1: we were actually just talking about that recently, where it's
Speaker 1: like the nurturing of the creative self and the everything
Speaker 1: has to be in balance, you know, and it knocks
Speaker 1: out of balance really easily, and you just it's like
Speaker 1: the meditation phrase I come back to over and over
Speaker 1: again is just to begin again. You just have to
Speaker 1: begin again, try again, to recalibrate and to even things out,
Speaker 1: and it will move off track again and you just
Speaker 1: come back and start over. I agree. That's the compassion piece,
Speaker 1: I think, and that begin again part and I find
Speaker 1: it too. With Philipe, my husband, he builds furniture and
Speaker 1: he's got his shop in our garage, and and then
Speaker 1: I have like a studio here and I have a
Speaker 1: little home office. And we talk about how when we're
Speaker 1: out of sync is oftentimes when we're not in our
Speaker 1: little places making things whatever that means for us, because
Speaker 1: then when we come together, it's like we can turn
Speaker 1: those things off and then really be together. But I
Speaker 1: think it takes a certain maturity in a relationship to know,
Speaker 1: for my own sanity and well being and creativity, I
Speaker 1: need this time. And that has nothing to do with
Speaker 1: me not choosing you yes totally, and on the flip side,
Speaker 1: growing up enough to not take it personally and be like, yes,
Speaker 1: I want you to be your fullest, most expanded, biggest,
Speaker 1: brightest self and take all the space you need. That
Speaker 1: was one of the things that Joe, very early in
Speaker 1: our relationship, was very clear, there's nothing about him that
Speaker 1: wants to make me smaller, you know. So that's a
Speaker 1: nice illness, that's an honestly, that's an amazing thing. I
Speaker 1: remember having a conversation like that with Phelipe when we
Speaker 1: first met, and I said, you know, I want to
Speaker 1: live this big life and I want to do all
Speaker 1: these things and does not intimidate you, because that had
Speaker 1: been a story that I had in prior relationships, Right
Speaker 1: was either I was too much or I felt it
Speaker 1: felt like I was too much or And I remember
Speaker 1: his almost in immediate response was like, why would I
Speaker 1: be intimidated? Like I'm secure in who I am. Like
Speaker 1: that's awesome, that's inspiring. And I was like, what am
Speaker 1: I getting punked? Like you know, and when we got married,
Speaker 1: we one of our vows that we pledged to was
Speaker 1: the preservation of self love because without us working on ourselves,
Speaker 1: we couldn't keep showing up to give to the other persons.
Speaker 1: So true, has this relationship or this time in your life,
Speaker 1: this season in your life, has this taught you anything
Speaker 1: new about your love ability or your belief in your
Speaker 1: love ability to be loved and seen by somebody else? Like,
Speaker 1: I'm curious how that might have shifted any of those
Speaker 1: voices from long ago. Yeah, it's really interesting. I mean,
Speaker 1: this is my first real partnership, I think, and there
Speaker 1: is so much that is so terrifying about that. To me,
Speaker 1: the choice to just stay is a constant conversation because
Speaker 1: I'm real flighty, and I'm like, it's overwhelming I have
Speaker 1: to go, and so like the choice that I make
Speaker 1: every day to just stay and because there's so much
Speaker 1: good here. But being seen for real, for real is
Speaker 1: terrifying and beautiful and liberating and complicated. One of the
Speaker 1: things that I love about Joe is that he's not
Speaker 1: pulling punches of me. I've got some real so to say,
Speaker 1: he has real issues too, but like I've got some
Speaker 1: real issues, but we are choosing to stay next to
Speaker 1: each other and like figure it out and shape shift
Speaker 1: a little bit for each other and on behalf of
Speaker 1: the wholeness of our our couple. That is a new experience.
Speaker 1: It about real, real connection. Conflict is sometimes a sign
Speaker 1: of intimacy, and oftentimes if you're willing to stay, the
Speaker 1: ability and the interest in resolving disagreements and where we
Speaker 1: don't we aren't in alignment is a part of the
Speaker 1: growth and that has been so illuminating to me. But yeah,
Speaker 1: Joe has made me feel completely lovable and a reminder
Speaker 1: of like, oh, where are the places in myself where
Speaker 1: I'm not loving myself being as much as he does?
Speaker 1: I know. That was like so humbling. To see me
Speaker 1: through my partner's eyes is a real trip. Is a
Speaker 1: real experience to be like, oh, because sometimes, much like
Speaker 1: your friends that you were talking about earlier in the conversation,
Speaker 1: like Renee and your other friend who spoke beautiful words
Speaker 1: to you back to you in that moment, like I
Speaker 1: found the intimacy of having that with this partner. The
Speaker 1: way he could see me at times when I was
Speaker 1: not seeing myself and love me through moments where I
Speaker 1: was being just god awful was also so humbling and
Speaker 1: so beautiful because I found that to be a real
Speaker 1: challenge to the stories in my head about what my
Speaker 1: worth was and and realizing that you're you're right, the
Speaker 1: choosing to show up for yourself for this partnership, for
Speaker 1: the learning for me goes back like even full circle
Speaker 1: to what we're talking about, which is, you know, these
Speaker 1: beliefs that we have, the stories that were told, like
Speaker 1: all of that is constant, and what also can be
Speaker 1: constant is we can love and be loved at the
Speaker 1: same time. How has it been for your creativity in
Speaker 1: a relationship? Do different things inspire you because of some
Speaker 1: of the emotions that get unlocked. I think for me
Speaker 1: it's a little bit of a logistical thing. I'm just
Speaker 1: used to creating in solitude. Yeah, I live with someone
Speaker 1: now and so I don't have alone time in that
Speaker 1: same way. So I think I'm actually trying to figure
Speaker 1: out how to solve for that a little bit. At
Speaker 1: the moment, it's the urgent necessarily, but it is something
Speaker 1: that has been kind of brewing, and I'm just I'm
Speaker 1: kind of examining, Oh, why am I not writing as much?
Speaker 1: And I think it's some of that is like, oh,
Speaker 1: I just like hanging out, and and then some of
Speaker 1: it's just a little bit logistical. Yeah, I agree. I
Speaker 1: mean I've had very similarly as well, Like I've I
Speaker 1: get up very very early now and I need those
Speaker 1: couple of hours before he wakes for me to sit
Speaker 1: with my creativity and call it in and have those moments.
Speaker 1: But as for people who are listening who like, I
Speaker 1: love what you said before when you said you want
Speaker 1: to live a creative, artistic life, I'm curious if there
Speaker 1: is something that you have learned, maybe of late, about
Speaker 1: a way to balance your identity around creativity, right, because
Speaker 1: I think sometimes creative people, if they're not producing all
Speaker 1: the time, we know that we're used to hustling for
Speaker 1: our worth and like we've got to be productive. Is
Speaker 1: there a piece of advice or an insight that you
Speaker 1: have do you want to give to people, like something
Speaker 1: that you've learned that has helped you through those rockier
Speaker 1: moments around your identity as a creative person while being human. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I mean what I feel compelled to say is that
Speaker 1: I find it helpful to think of it as a relationship.
Speaker 1: It is a relationship that you cultivate, nurture, tends to
Speaker 1: It will shift, it will sometimes be really fertile, it
Speaker 1: will sometimes feel like it's never going to return. I mean,
Speaker 1: how many artists have you spoken to songwriters who are like, no,
Speaker 1: I'll never write another song. They wrote a song that
Speaker 1: will never write another song'll never write another book, I'll
Speaker 1: never write whatever. It's an emotion sational relationship. And so
Speaker 1: treat it like a relationship and tend to it and
Speaker 1: offer compassion and grace and attention and intention and really
Speaker 1: nurture it the way you would nurture a relationship you
Speaker 1: really care about. Because I think there's a beautiful book
Speaker 1: called The War of Art Stephen Pressfield. He talks about,
Speaker 1: you know, the muse rewards the person who shows up
Speaker 1: every day show up for this relationship. You are the reward,
Speaker 1: my friend. You are so incredible. I love all of
Speaker 1: our convos, and I thank you so much for digging
Speaker 1: in with me on this. I'm more than happy to anytime.
Speaker 1: I adore you, and I'm so happy for this new
Speaker 1: adventure for you. Oh my word, I literally could talk
Speaker 1: to Sarah forever, forever, forever grateful for that one. And
Speaker 1: you know, I'd like to think about a couple of
Speaker 1: key takeaways after a conversation like this, because there's a
Speaker 1: lot that we unpacked, and I call them next supportive
Speaker 1: action steps because for me, I think these small steps
Speaker 1: help lead to great change. So here's kind of three
Speaker 1: things I'm thinking about. Number one is like managing my
Speaker 1: expectations around dominant stories. You know, Sarah and I talked
Speaker 1: about how these stories, these negative voices, they don't ever
Speaker 1: really go away no matter how much fame or success
Speaker 1: do you have, Like, none of that really matters. So
Speaker 1: give them a seat at the table, explore where they
Speaker 1: come from, get curious about them. The second thing that
Speaker 1: I'm loving about this conversation was the reminder that compassion
Speaker 1: and joy are truly necessary ingredients for us, not just
Speaker 1: as we rewrite these dominant stories, but just in life
Speaker 1: in general and around creativity, like don't forget to enjoy,
Speaker 1: joy the journey to find compassion for yourself when you
Speaker 1: screw up. And then lastly, and this is a big takeaway,
Speaker 1: treat your creativity like a relationship or in relationship with
Speaker 1: our mused to our creativity, So tend to it. Offer
Speaker 1: your creativity compassion and grace and attention and intention and
Speaker 1: and Sarah's advice to young artists is simple and beautiful.
Speaker 1: Go play, go play, go play, do your art. The
Speaker 1: rest will follow. If you're interested in learning more about
Speaker 1: dominant Stories, you can always join me for a workshop.
Speaker 1: Learn more about this at Jess Weiner dot com or
Speaker 1: feel free to follow me on social and I'm just
Speaker 1: Weiner on Instagram. I really want to build a community
Speaker 1: here and I want this to be a community conversation
Speaker 1: as so I would love to hear from you if
Speaker 1: you want to tell us about your dominant stories and
Speaker 1: how you're rewriting them. Uh, you can do it two ways.
Speaker 1: You can email us at podcast at Dominant stories dot com,
Speaker 1: or you can leave us a voicemail at two one
Speaker 1: three to five nine three zero three three. Next week,
Speaker 1: we're gonna be speaking with writer and psychotherapist Lori gott Leap.
Speaker 1: She wrote that incredible best selling book Maybe you Should
Speaker 1: talk to someone, and we're gonna do just that. We're
Speaker 1: gonna talk about how changing your dominant stories can actually
Speaker 1: change your life. Thank you so so much for tuning in.
Speaker 1: I'm so grateful, and don't forget to write a review
Speaker 1: wherever you're listening. It really helps us out a lot.
Speaker 1: And remember we are always learning and we are always growing.
Speaker 1: M Dominant Stories with Jess Winer is a production of
Speaker 1: Shondaland Audio in partnership with I Heart Radio. For more
Speaker 1: podcasts from Shondaland Audio, visit the I Heart Radio app,
Speaker 1: Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.