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Speaker 1: Welcome to Creature future production of iHeartRadio. I'm your host

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Speaker 1: of Many Parasites, Katie Golden. I studied psychology and evolutionary biology,

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Speaker 1: and today on the show Rats. There's rats in the

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Speaker 1: walls and the sewers on the subway. Why are there

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Speaker 1: so many rats around? And are they the most villainous

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Speaker 1: pests or just misunderstood? From plagues to pets, rats have

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Speaker 1: shaped human civilization in a variety of ways. Discover this

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Speaker 1: and more as we answer the angel question. Welcome, rats

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Speaker 1: get blamed for everything. Joining me today is front of

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Speaker 1: the show comedian and host of the podcast Jeff Has

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Speaker 1: Cool Friends. Jeff May welcome.

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Speaker 2: Heyy welcome, It's me a rat.

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Speaker 1: It's you a rat man. You pull up the human skin,

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Speaker 1: look great.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, most of my rat friends are in my legs.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well you know, moved. I've seen this exact case

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Speaker 1: so many times where top half kind of like a

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Speaker 1: rat tar, like not a centaur, but a rat tar.

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Speaker 1: Where it's like top half human bought and half a

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Speaker 1: bunch of rats.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, bundle a bundle of Dracula like rats, right.

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Speaker 1: Sort of like all kind of like a Megatron made

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Speaker 1: out of rats for the lower half.

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Speaker 2: That's probably the best way to do it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. So, Jeff, you actually suggested this topic, what

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Speaker 1: is what is going on in your life that involves rats?

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Speaker 2: So? I had a uninvited rat roommate in my house

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Speaker 2: not too long ago. I was. It's one of those

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Speaker 2: ones where you start here and you're like, oh, I

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Speaker 2: think we have mice, and then you see it and

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Speaker 2: you're like, we don't. We don't have mice. We don't. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: we don't have any mice. We do have at least

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Speaker 2: a rat, right, And you know, we met a couple times.

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Speaker 2: He was a little dodgy but also bold. Yeah, and

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Speaker 2: I sorry for all of you friends of rats, but

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Speaker 2: I got them.

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Speaker 1: You got them because.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we got them, which I'm sorry, but also like,

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Speaker 2: I don't need my house to burn down. If he's

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Speaker 2: like chew an electrical wire.

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Speaker 1: Or put a head out on this rat, it sounds like.

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Speaker 2: You know, you know, that would have been nice. But

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Speaker 2: I actually ended up doing it myself. Oh god, you know,

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Speaker 2: like you like, instead of hiring an assassin to come in,

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Speaker 2: you know, I will skit myself and just really went

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Speaker 2: for it, which is also scary because it turns out

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Speaker 2: I'm terrified of things that skitter.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, skittering is I think the problem with skittering

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Speaker 1: is that you know, the skidery is up to something.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. On top of that too, like when you think

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Speaker 2: about skittering, it's the creepiest, most most aggressive way to

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Speaker 2: run away from something. Yeah, but skittering is never at me,

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Speaker 2: It's always away from me. And yet I'll clutch my

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Speaker 2: if I see a cockroach, I'm gonna clutch my.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, No, I'm a lover of most things considered pests,

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Speaker 1: but a cockroach. The problem is once it's in my area, right,

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Speaker 1: like a rat or a cockroach or even a mouse,

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Speaker 1: it's like there is a certain like I've made eye

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Speaker 1: contact with it, and now it's tap danced away, and

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Speaker 1: it's so inappropriate. It's so anti social to like aggressively

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Speaker 1: tap dance away from me and be like, well, I'm

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Speaker 1: in your house. By ah, it's upsetting, he was at.

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Speaker 2: One point in time. They mean to assume that gender

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Speaker 2: was like in because we have like a laundry room

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Speaker 2: and and it has like the laundry room has basement energy,

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Speaker 2: but it's connected to my bedroom. So in order to

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Speaker 2: go into the laundry room to do my laundry. I

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Speaker 2: started like kind of knocking on the door because I

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Speaker 2: didn't want to see the rat.

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Speaker 1: Right, like, are you in here doing rat?

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Speaker 2: So then I realized it.

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Speaker 1: I was just looking at rat pornography.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, look at a little looking at some rat titty.

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Speaker 2: But I realized I was treating it like a slightly

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Speaker 2: hostile roommate. Yeah, like I was like, sorry for coming

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Speaker 2: in your room, man, I just got to do some

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Speaker 2: laundry real quick. Uh. And and yeah, I'm not a

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Speaker 2: fan of the rat. Telling people that a rat snuck

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Speaker 2: into your house through like a event or something. You

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Speaker 2: might as well tell people that you grew a rat

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Speaker 2: from all the pizza boxes that you sleeep in your house.

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Speaker 2: You know. That's that's the energy that that having a

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Speaker 2: rat in your house means, Like people automatically assume that

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Speaker 2: you are a pig. Yeah, that you are like an

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Speaker 2: absolute slob that you.

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Speaker 1: Sort of leave like a trail of food scraps directly

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Speaker 1: to your laundry room and little signs that says welcome rat.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, like a little rat strip club right right, so

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Speaker 2: that they can do that. But the reality is, you know,

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Speaker 2: it's been cold in Los Angeles and rainy, and that

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Speaker 2: we must have had like a hole somewhere in our house. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: that had to get plugged up. Yeah, it's and it's

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Speaker 2: not good like they sneak.

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Speaker 1: In because the rat they do, and they do use

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Speaker 1: air vents. I had a rat in my air ventt

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Speaker 1: once and this was like this, I think it was

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Speaker 1: a brown rat and it was large. It was large

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Speaker 1: and very aggressive and the skittering aspect was interesting because

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Speaker 1: like it was in the vents, so it would wake

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Speaker 1: me up in the middle of the night with sort

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Speaker 1: of this aggressive scratching and skittering. And what eventually worked

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Speaker 1: was allowing my dogs to uh just go ham on

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Speaker 1: the on the rat vent area whenever she pleased. So

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Speaker 1: she usually would like sleep in her crate because she's

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Speaker 1: a well trained puppy, but in this time I let

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Speaker 1: her sleep on my bed so that she uh would

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Speaker 1: just like every time the rat made a noise, she

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Speaker 1: would spring up and start like screaming at this rat,

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Speaker 1: which would wake me up for sure, But in the

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Speaker 1: long term it was good because she terrorized this poor

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Speaker 1: rat and basically trained the rat to like not be

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Speaker 1: in my vents because like whenever it would make a

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Speaker 1: sound in my vent, my dog would like slam into

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Speaker 1: the vent and bark really loud.

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Speaker 2: And if you're anywhere and something is like I'm gonna

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Speaker 2: kill you, Yeah, you're probably gonna be like, I don't

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Speaker 2: think I want to come back here.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And I felt sorry for the rat, you know,

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Speaker 1: like because again I like rats in general. Obviously, when

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Speaker 1: it's like in my vents pooping and keeping me awake

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Speaker 1: at night, that's not tinnable. But you know, it's like

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Speaker 1: I want to It's almost like, man, could I like

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Speaker 1: build a rat hut? And the answer is no, because

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Speaker 1: I didn't own this property, so there's no way I

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Speaker 1: could build like a rat hut for the rat to

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Speaker 1: live and I would get in trouble with the city.

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Speaker 1: So but yeah, it's just it's just not a it's

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Speaker 1: not a fun situation when you've got a rat in

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Speaker 1: your Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Like also it's a good reminder that like there's a

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Speaker 2: massive difference between like getting a pet rat and having

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Speaker 2: it at your house. Yes, and and an invasive it's

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Speaker 2: like a person. It's like having a person, like if

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Speaker 2: it's a diffuse and some home invader. Yeah, and then

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Speaker 2: there's another another persons just in your house, You're not

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Speaker 2: just like you know, every life is sacred. Yeah, you'd

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Speaker 2: be like, this is a problem and we need to

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Speaker 2: remedy it.

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Speaker 1: Lad. I would construct a giant slab of wood and

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Speaker 1: a hinge and a big metal bar and put a

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Speaker 1: burger on it, an enticing burger on there.

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Speaker 2: Big with and the burger would have like a nice

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Speaker 2: and it would like the finger on under.

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Speaker 1: The Yeah, the aroma, the aroma smell would form an

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Speaker 1: anthropomorphic hand and lure the person over. Yeah, I mean

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Speaker 1: I think so. Like one of the things with rat control,

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Speaker 1: right is it's it is not great when it like

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Speaker 1: falls upon us to try to get rid of rats

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Speaker 1: from our places. And one of the one of the

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Speaker 1: ideas of a more humane rat control is actually through

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Speaker 1: like rat birth control, right, so instead of poisoning them,

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Speaker 1: which is bad for the rats and bad for you know,

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Speaker 1: other animals, right, like mountain lions, domesticated.

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Speaker 2: Pets, you know, Yeah, like honestly, like feral cats.

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Speaker 1: Feral cats.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's terrible, like like poisoning. I used to we

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Speaker 2: were rescuing a colony of feral cats that were abandoned

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Speaker 2: in a neighborhood and one of them just straight up

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Speaker 2: we found dead. Yeah, and like based down on the ground,

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Speaker 2: no impact or anything like that. We were like, well, somebody,

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Speaker 2: some rat poison killed this cat.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. That's also like there was that owl that poor

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Speaker 1: owl I think in New York had been you know,

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Speaker 1: kidnapped from I think the zoo and then escaped and

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Speaker 1: then I think its name was Flacco, I think, and

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Speaker 1: I think it died. The cause of death was mostly

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Speaker 1: attributed to like poison in the rodents that it would

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Speaker 1: try to eat.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yes, those owl pellets would be weird coming.

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Speaker 1: Out, huh yeah, yeah, not great. And so you know,

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Speaker 1: I mean, like I think that the idea that we should,

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Speaker 1: like there are a few ways to control rat populations

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Speaker 1: near humans that do not involve poison or you know,

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Speaker 1: mass killing. It would involve like creating sort of birth

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Speaker 1: control for Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I'm fascinated by whatever the wherever you're going with birth

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Speaker 2: control with rat.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's not like it would not be like

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Speaker 1: tiny rat condoms. It would be capturing rats, sterilizing them,

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Speaker 1: or trying to put out baits that would have some

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Speaker 1: kind of sterilizing substance in it, so that the uh,

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Speaker 1: then you would have rats that would it would basically

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Speaker 1: waste the time of of other rats who are trying

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Speaker 1: to mate with them, and would reduce the rat population.

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Speaker 1: I do like the idea of rat sex ed though,

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Speaker 1: where you just have like, uh, you know, teaching rats.

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Speaker 2: About safe little rat bananas.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, tiny rat bananas and so. But like, I do

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Speaker 1: want to talk today about kind of this this complex

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Speaker 1: relationship we have with rats, because rats are really interesting animals,

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Speaker 1: you know, they're they're they're highly intelligent. They they're all

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Speaker 1: these kind of emotions and behaviors in them that I

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Speaker 1: think are very like humanizing that they can be tickled.

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Speaker 1: They seem to show care and empathy for other rats.

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Speaker 1: They'll want to help a rat who's stuck in a

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Speaker 1: bad situation, even if it doesn't seem to directly benefit themselves.

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Speaker 2: They're great chefs.

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Speaker 1: They're great chefs. Sometimes if you put a rat on

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Speaker 1: your head, it'll tug your hair that makes you cook

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Speaker 1: really good.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and that's who doesn't want that?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? If I could just have if I could have

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Speaker 1: a rat at tuy that helps me do my taxes,

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Speaker 1: that would.

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Speaker 2: Be on a little lawyer, a little account, right.

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Speaker 1: Accounting rat. Rat who helps me do my taxes? Rat

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Speaker 1: who helps me keep deadlines?

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Speaker 2: You know, like I would like a house cleaning rat.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, like a rat where you can just like zone

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Speaker 1: out and listen to podcasts, but the rat is like

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Speaker 1: pulling on your hair and having you vacuum. Perfect. That

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Speaker 1: would be that'd be perfect.

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Speaker 2: On it, Like or like a like a rummage sale

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Speaker 2: organization rat. Yeah, where you can be like, I got

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Speaker 2: all this stuff I don't the rat knows what I

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Speaker 2: need and what I don't need.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, like a rat helping you simplify a life coach rat.

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Speaker 1: There's so many ratituey opportunities beyond just cooking, is our point, Like,

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Speaker 1: like we need more variety of ratituey. But yeah, so

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Speaker 1: let's let's talk a little bit about what what is

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Speaker 1: a rat. Rats are in the Rattus genus, which you know, right,

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Speaker 1: not really but yeah, like this includes brown rats, black rats,

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Speaker 1: domesticated pet rats which are actually descendants from brown rats.

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Speaker 1: And these are all in the Rattus genus. But there

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Speaker 1: are some things that we call rats that are not

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Speaker 1: really true rats. So pack rats, kangaroo rats, pouched rats, muskrats,

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Speaker 1: none of these are in the Rattus genus. They're all rodents.

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Speaker 1: What's that snitches? Well, it depends because I guess if

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Speaker 1: you have a snitch, who is a rat? Right, Like, if.

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Speaker 2: This would have to be like that would be another.

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Speaker 1: Ratitude, it'd be a different ratitude.

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Speaker 2: You get a snitch ratitude.

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Speaker 1: Snitch ratitudey, that would be the I feel like that's

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Speaker 1: not the most ideal ratitudey, like a ratituey that helps

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Speaker 1: you do your taxes but then also reports you to

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Speaker 1: the I R S.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's an inside rat is.

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Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, exactly. There are over fifty species of rats,

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Speaker 1: including domesticated rats bread to be pets or rats bread

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Speaker 1: to be used in lamps. Rats are a cosmopolitan species,

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Speaker 1: found all over the world, on every continent except for

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Speaker 1: Antarctica because it's too cold.

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Speaker 2: I feel that rat awesome if you're like, except for Europe.

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Speaker 2: Yeah no, that's it's weird that they respect that border.

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Speaker 1: Yeah no, they yeah, well we'll talk about Europe in

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Speaker 1: a little bit, but yeah, So they have become invasive

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Speaker 1: on islands actually sort of close to Antarctica in the

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Speaker 1: southern Hemisphere, and they do threaten the nesting seabird populations there.

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Speaker 1: Like when we think about rats as pests, we kind

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Speaker 1: of think about them being in our homes or eating

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Speaker 1: our grain stockpiles, Like I hate it when rats are

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Speaker 1: like in my grain silos. One of the big things

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Speaker 1: that is a problem with rats is being invasive in

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Speaker 1: areas where they are not indigenous and out competing the

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Speaker 1: native wildlife. Because rats are very good at survivors. They

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Speaker 1: are like amazing. They're intelligent, they are omnivorous, they will

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Speaker 1: eat pretty much anything that can be eaten. They are

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Speaker 1: also very fecund. They are very fertile, and they have

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Speaker 1: a lot of offsprings, so they are fantastic survivors. I mean,

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Speaker 1: they it's interesting that we hate them so much because

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Speaker 1: they kind of are very huge men like and how

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Speaker 1: successful they are, Like they their ability to take advantage

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Speaker 1: of resources, to colonize, to to you know, kind of

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Speaker 1: like exploit things and mess up the eco system where

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Speaker 1: they are. It's very humanized.

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Speaker 2: I think it's important to note too that we are

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Speaker 2: also pests.

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Speaker 1: Yes, well yes, I mean depends on your perspective, but yeah,

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Speaker 1: like if if, if we are talking about our impact

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Speaker 1: on ecosystems, I think very much we could be considered pests.

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Speaker 2: I'm viewing it from the agent smith perspective.

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Speaker 1: Yeah that's yeah, that's I'm sure that's healthy. So yeah,

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Speaker 1: the most infamous rat species, the ones you probably are

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Speaker 1: most familiar with, are the black rat and the brown rat. So,

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Speaker 1: despite the names, black and brown rats are not like like.

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Speaker 1: It's not really the coloration difference that is the most

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Speaker 1: notable difference between the species, because blacks can be different

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Speaker 1: shades of black, gray, or brown, and brown rats can

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Speaker 1: be gray rather than brown. So the main difference in

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Speaker 1: appearance is the size and the body shape. So brown

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Speaker 1: rats are bigger and chunkier, their tails are shorter than

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Speaker 1: their overall body length, their snouts are boxier, and their

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Speaker 1: ears are stubbier, and black rats are more slender. They

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Speaker 1: have tails that are longer than their total body length,

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Speaker 1: they have more pointed snouts, more sort of slender faces,

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Speaker 1: and larger ears. So yeah, that's how you tell the

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Speaker 1: difference if you care.

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Speaker 2: I feel like Los Angeles is really good at brown

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Speaker 2: rats and New York is much better with black rats.

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Speaker 1: I think that's that's fairly accurate. Yeah, I mean they

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Speaker 1: both of these guys are found pretty much all over

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Speaker 1: the world.

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Speaker 2: But yes, I Yeah, mine was a I'm pretty sure

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Speaker 2: it was a gray brown rat. Yeah. I remember. I

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Speaker 2: was in New York in twenty nineteen for Comic Con.

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Speaker 2: I I had a panel and I was just kind

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Speaker 2: of like exploring the area and I cut off the

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Speaker 2: subway and I came up and immediately saw just like

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Speaker 2: a black rat running around like a little park area,

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Speaker 2: and I was like, ah, yes, metaphors. It's good to see.

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Speaker 2: Like it's definitely like beginning of a movie energy where

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Speaker 2: you're like, there's a rat. You're in New York.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean that's it's interesting, right, because it is

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Speaker 1: used as this thing of like, ah, you're in New

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Speaker 1: York because here, here's all the rats. And I mean

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Speaker 1: the reason that rats are drawn to New York is

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Speaker 1: like the same reason that people are drawn to New

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Speaker 1: York or major cities, right, It's because there's because there's

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Speaker 1: a lot. I mean, they are drawn to where there

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Speaker 1: are huge, dense populations of people because they like the

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Speaker 1: same things we do. They like warmth, they like structures,

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Speaker 1: and they like food, and they like our food and

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Speaker 1: there I'm neverous. They'll eat pretty much anything that we

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Speaker 1: can eat, so like they love people. We may not

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Speaker 1: like them, but they love a us.

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Speaker 2: You know What's it's so funny because and I can

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Speaker 2: guarantee we're going to get to this. But for those

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Speaker 2: of you that are not aware of my previous career,

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Speaker 2: I taught medieval history. I taught about the Middle Ages.

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Speaker 2: I taught about everything that happened between the Fall of

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Speaker 2: Rome and the Renaissance. And so thirteen forty seven showed

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Speaker 2: up and we did a whole unit on it. And

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Speaker 2: hearing you say that to me is just giving me

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Speaker 2: flashbacks of saying that to eighth breakers. So it's like,

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Speaker 2: it's very fascinating because I'm like, oh, yeah, they do

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Speaker 2: they do do that.

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Speaker 1: I'm so excited because I am not much of a historian,

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Speaker 1: so I just did some you know, research for this podcast,

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Speaker 1: So I'm excited for you to be able to fill

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Speaker 1: in the gaps or correct my mistakes.

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Speaker 2: Don't dust off my degree. Yeah yeah, in twelve years. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, like we kind of we kind of have

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Speaker 1: this disdain for rats, but the reason they're so populated

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Speaker 1: in areas where we live is because we produce waste

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Speaker 1: and we build buildings, and they will eat our food

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Speaker 1: and they will live in our buildings, and the best

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Speaker 1: way to like sort of control the problem with rats

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Speaker 1: is to you know, manage our waste, produce less food waste,

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Speaker 1: have good building infrastructure, and you know, I think that

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Speaker 1: is kind of all we can do in terms of

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Speaker 1: you know, because like when we do things like poison

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Speaker 1: rats and stuff, it doesn't actually really make that much

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Speaker 1: of an impact on their population, and it just causes

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Speaker 1: a lot of problems.

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Speaker 2: That they're not getting the word out about the poison.

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Speaker 1: They kind of are. Actually that's the thing that they're

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Speaker 1: so smart is that they will they will test food

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Speaker 1: sometimes and wait to see whether it has an effect,

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Speaker 1: or they'll watch another rat test food and then wait

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Speaker 1: to see if it has an effect on them. And

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Speaker 1: then they because they have they learn that things can

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Speaker 1: be poisonous, and then they will be careful about new

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Speaker 1: food sources. There's actually a pretty insidious way sometimes we

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Speaker 1: kill rats, which is with an I think an anticoagulant.

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Speaker 1: You give them the anticoagulant and they don't realize it

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Speaker 1: because it's the effects take so long to set in

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Speaker 1: that they don't realize it's poisoned. So even if they

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Speaker 1: do the little testing thing and then they eat it.

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Speaker 1: It takes a lot, there's a long delay in terms

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Speaker 1: of the effects, but then the effects happen later and

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Speaker 1: kills them in a pretty gruesome way.

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Speaker 2: And by an you're with an anti coagulant, does that

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Speaker 2: mean you're basically just like giving them like any bola.

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Speaker 1: Virus sort of like it's it's not a virus. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it kind of works like a snake bite works in

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Speaker 1: some cases where like some some snake bites can be

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Speaker 1: have a pro coagulant, like a more likely to form

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Speaker 1: blood cloths or be anti coagulants, and the anti coagulant

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Speaker 1: effects can cause like eternal bleeding. Yeah, it's pretty it's

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Speaker 1: pretty horrific. So you know, but you know, the there

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Speaker 1: are real problems that we face from rats, like in

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Speaker 1: terms of spread of disease, and we, like you kind

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Speaker 1: of hinted at Jeff, we cannot we cannot get through

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Speaker 1: this episode without talking about plague because it's such a

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Speaker 1: huge part of human history and when people think of

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Speaker 1: rats like they think of plague, and it is true

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Speaker 1: that rats can inadvertently spread plague. But we're gonna take.

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Speaker 2: Oh sorry, I was gonna say so if I may

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Speaker 2: and of course, I I apologize if I'm getting anything

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Speaker 2: wrong here, but so essentially like rodents, so like we

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Speaker 2: give rats because rats are social. The reality is all

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Speaker 2: of the cases of plague that hit in modern times

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Speaker 2: are not usually provided rats. Actually, and first and foremost,

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Speaker 2: it's important to note that rats are not the ones

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Speaker 2: that are delivering the Eucinia pestis bacteria to people. It's

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Speaker 2: it's almost always going to be fleas. Yes, the folice

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Speaker 2: that are are hanging out on the rats, they're the ones.

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Speaker 2: They they have rat blood in there inside of them

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Speaker 2: that is contaminated. They jump on us, they bite, they

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Speaker 2: then vomit that blood back into our open wounds, a

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Speaker 2: little bit of yeah, a little bit, a little bit

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Speaker 2: of the Rcinia bestest bacteria. And that's how it happens.

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Speaker 2: More most often comes through uh, like in the American Southwest.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, prairie dogs actually from prairie dogs, yes, yeah, because

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Speaker 1: there's a reservoir in prairie dogs, whereas uh, there is not,

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Speaker 1: you know, like the I think are ability to kind

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Speaker 1: of like do hygiene and use antibiotics to treat plagu

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Speaker 1: when it pops up like it is not it doesn't spread,

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Speaker 1: so easily to major cities nowadays, which is very good,

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Speaker 1: but this did not always. This was not always the case.

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Speaker 1: So we're going to take a quick break actually, but

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Speaker 1: then when we get back, we are going to talk

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Speaker 1: about plague and the discussion over how much blame do

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Speaker 1: rats have for the plague and what even is plague?

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Speaker 1: How does it work? And Jeff, I'm this is such kisman.

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Speaker 1: I had no idea that this is what you taught,

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Speaker 1: but it says if yes, I'm so excited. I don't

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Speaker 1: plan this, but maybe it's like the rats are just

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Speaker 1: communicating through me to bring this moment about a great

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Speaker 1: cosmic rat, you know, using us like puppets. Anyways, the

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Speaker 1: point is we'll be right back and when we come back,

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Speaker 1: we're gonna talk about the plague. Yeah, So Jeff gosh,

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Speaker 1: I'm I'm so I'm so excited because, like again, history

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Speaker 1: is not like my strong point. But I did, I

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Speaker 1: did do a little bit of homework before this episode,

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Speaker 1: but I'm hoping you can fill in some of the

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Speaker 1: details here or at least correct me if I say

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Speaker 1: something egregiously wrong or mispronounced something. So the plague, right,

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Speaker 1: it's like not I think when we think about or

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Speaker 1: when we think about plague. I think a lot of

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Speaker 1: people just think about the Black Death. But that was

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Speaker 1: not the only plague. It was a bad one. It

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Speaker 1: was a big one, for sure. But there were three

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Speaker 1: plague pandemics, and one was relatively recent. There was the

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Speaker 1: first plague pandemic from about five forty to seven fifty.

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Speaker 1: There was the second plague pandemic from about thirteen thirty

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Speaker 1: to eighteen fifty five ish, and then the third plague

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Speaker 1: pandemic from about eighteen fifty five ish to nineteen sixty.

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Speaker 1: Is that about right?

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Speaker 2: I it might be. I take an interesting form of

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Speaker 2: umbrage with the fact that we went thirteen roughly thirteen

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Speaker 2: thirty to eighteen fifty five. That's a big span. Yeah,

433
00:25:16,320 --> 00:25:20,359
Speaker 2: it's a pandemic, but that's again, that's that's mostly that's

434
00:25:20,359 --> 00:25:22,320
Speaker 2: not me correcting you. That's just me being like, in

435
00:25:22,359 --> 00:25:22,960
Speaker 2: my head, I'm.

436
00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:25,000
Speaker 1: Like, I can't be no reason. So there is a

437
00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:28,679
Speaker 1: little bit of uh, you know, I think that that

438
00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:31,719
Speaker 1: is sort of the general span in terms of like

439
00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:39,120
Speaker 1: how they categorize these pandemics. But it's not like there

440
00:25:39,119 --> 00:25:44,480
Speaker 1: were a bunch of pandemics within that, And it's kind

441
00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:48,240
Speaker 1: of like there's some disagreement on how exactly one should

442
00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:52,000
Speaker 1: categorize these time periods, right, like this is it's not

443
00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:56,639
Speaker 1: like it's a little bit. It's kind of like a

444
00:25:56,880 --> 00:26:00,000
Speaker 1: taxonomy with animals, where it's like sometimes it's like, well,

445
00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:04,919
Speaker 1: where is exactly the cutoff with where one starts and

446
00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:08,120
Speaker 1: where the other begins.

447
00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:12,639
Speaker 2: It's important to note that the plague, that is the

448
00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:16,520
Speaker 2: famous plague. It's important because plague in general just means

449
00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:19,439
Speaker 2: an epidemic or however we want to say at a

450
00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:23,560
Speaker 2: pandemic or whatnot, that is sweeps across a massive amount

451
00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:28,080
Speaker 2: of the population. And again, if you're a pedant listening

452
00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:30,280
Speaker 2: to this, jumping into the comments, tell me I'm wrong.

453
00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:33,080
Speaker 2: I'm probably wrong about some stuff. It's been twelve years

454
00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:37,920
Speaker 2: since I've taught this. I have a degree, obviously in history.

455
00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:43,679
Speaker 2: My minor was in biology, and actually the focus on

456
00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:47,240
Speaker 2: that was infectious diseases. So I do bring a little

457
00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:48,560
Speaker 2: bit in here, but I'm not a scientist.

458
00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:51,119
Speaker 1: Plague heads are plague heads are coming for you, Jeff.

459
00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:54,919
Speaker 2: They might so, but I do need to classify that

460
00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:57,840
Speaker 2: because you know, I haven't been a teacher of this

461
00:26:58,080 --> 00:27:02,560
Speaker 2: since twenty twelve. But essentially the one we talk about

462
00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:06,640
Speaker 2: like the main one, because that's the one that everybody discusses,

463
00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:09,320
Speaker 2: right if you're talking like five fifty seven or whatever,

464
00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:12,240
Speaker 2: you know you're talking, you know, that's an earlier one.

465
00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:17,480
Speaker 2: That's not the one that's super famous. Roughly, we look

466
00:27:17,480 --> 00:27:21,600
Speaker 2: at the period and it's generally considered that thirteen forty seven,

467
00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:24,880
Speaker 2: that's like, yeah, that.

468
00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:27,320
Speaker 1: Was like when that's the Black plague, right.

469
00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:31,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's the Black Death, and the Black Death is

470
00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:35,600
Speaker 2: you know, it really comes down due to the growth

471
00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:39,840
Speaker 2: of towns in trade. So the growth of a market

472
00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:44,760
Speaker 2: economy is what led to this epidemic. When you talk

473
00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:47,879
Speaker 2: about where Europe was in the thirteen hundreds and when

474
00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:49,639
Speaker 2: you were establishing trade routes, and you look at the

475
00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:53,880
Speaker 2: areas that were affected the most, you see that it's

476
00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:57,800
Speaker 2: coming in into these trading towns, these trading centers, and

477
00:27:57,840 --> 00:28:00,600
Speaker 2: then it is being spread because the people that got

478
00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:04,240
Speaker 2: infected by those fleas from those rats in those areas

479
00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:08,720
Speaker 2: are then going to travel. And when all of you,

480
00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:13,320
Speaker 2: all of your hearers and blames are like about God,

481
00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:19,399
Speaker 2: you're kind of screwed. The results of plague created the

482
00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:23,320
Speaker 2: modern world, and that is something that is a very

483
00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:31,840
Speaker 2: ugly benefit, because there are massive benefits that happened as

484
00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:33,080
Speaker 2: a result of the Black Death.

485
00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:37,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like a silver or sort of blackish bloody

486
00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:39,840
Speaker 1: lining to the plague.

487
00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:45,040
Speaker 2: It's it's probably I would say that Black Death has

488
00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:50,479
Speaker 2: the silverist lining in of all pretty much horrible events

489
00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:54,920
Speaker 2: that have happened. And I know that that sounds really careless,

490
00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:58,280
Speaker 2: because you know, estimates go from anywhere from twelve to

491
00:28:58,360 --> 00:29:04,320
Speaker 2: thirty percent of the population where wiped out. But the

492
00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:10,080
Speaker 2: middle class rip was created. Around this time, the church

493
00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:13,800
Speaker 2: took a massive hit in its influence and power. The

494
00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:18,959
Speaker 2: church no longer became the global dominator that it once was.

495
00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:24,200
Speaker 2: The nobility and feudalism started to crash heavily. Like it Also,

496
00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:29,720
Speaker 2: the Renaissance is birthed of this. The awakening of science

497
00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:33,000
Speaker 2: and technology and medicine is starting to grow. And it

498
00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:36,520
Speaker 2: really all comes from the fact that like the failures

499
00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:39,800
Speaker 2: of the survivors and like the wealth that was accumulated

500
00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:43,520
Speaker 2: and the pulling of the population, which is such a

501
00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:47,720
Speaker 2: dystopian sci fi thing that they do. Yeah, we're like,

502
00:29:48,800 --> 00:29:50,360
Speaker 2: you know, half the time, if you're ever on like

503
00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:53,400
Speaker 2: an episode of hype Cast or something, with Tom Rayman

504
00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:55,760
Speaker 2: and David Bell or whatever, and they're like, hey, there's

505
00:29:55,760 --> 00:29:57,640
Speaker 2: another sci fi movie coming out, and they're like, we

506
00:29:57,760 --> 00:29:59,640
Speaker 2: have to kill eight percent of the population.

507
00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:03,120
Speaker 1: The thing is, like, the thing about like the idea

508
00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:06,880
Speaker 1: of calling is that we don't I mean, like, I

509
00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:11,440
Speaker 1: definitely agree that there were direct results of the of

510
00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:17,160
Speaker 1: the uh, the Black Death and the plague that resulted

511
00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:21,160
Speaker 1: in good societal changes, but we don't have the counterfactual, right, Like,

512
00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:24,000
Speaker 1: if it hadn't happened, we could have also had really

513
00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:27,360
Speaker 1: good societal changes, and we just don't know what would

514
00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:27,880
Speaker 1: have happened.

515
00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:32,720
Speaker 2: Yes, but we can also use historical patterns.

516
00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:34,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, we could guess.

517
00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:39,120
Speaker 2: You can make a pretty strong hypothesis that there are

518
00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:43,360
Speaker 2: certain things that would have been maintained. And the status

519
00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:48,040
Speaker 2: quo at that time was pretty strong. And when you

520
00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:52,120
Speaker 2: look at you know, warfare being what it was, and

521
00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:56,400
Speaker 2: I don't know it's the church would not have been

522
00:30:56,840 --> 00:30:58,840
Speaker 2: would not have lost the power that it did, right,

523
00:30:58,840 --> 00:31:01,040
Speaker 2: and the middle class would not have risen the way

524
00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:04,320
Speaker 2: it did. We can't say for sure, but we can

525
00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:07,960
Speaker 2: say judging from the patterns of societies at that time,

526
00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:12,680
Speaker 2: judging from the fact that you know, Islam had been

527
00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:16,600
Speaker 2: stopped at Spain as opposed to crossing over and then

528
00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:20,200
Speaker 2: spreading all the way across. Like there are certain tent

529
00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:23,160
Speaker 2: pole or if we want to go pop culture canon

530
00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:25,840
Speaker 2: events that had happened up to that point which had

531
00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:32,280
Speaker 2: established patterns in there, Like if Islam had spread, maybe

532
00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:37,120
Speaker 2: science and technology would have moved faster at that time,

533
00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:41,520
Speaker 2: but it didn't. It was yeah, it was you know,

534
00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:44,560
Speaker 2: it was stopped Charles Martel stopped him at tour and

535
00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:48,360
Speaker 2: pushed him back. So at that point in time, then

536
00:31:48,560 --> 00:31:52,640
Speaker 2: you have to be like, all right, well, the plague

537
00:31:53,320 --> 00:31:57,600
Speaker 2: caused certain things to happen. Yeah, and those things led

538
00:31:57,640 --> 00:32:01,040
Speaker 2: to that immediate and it's like it's not that gradual,

539
00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:05,080
Speaker 2: it's a relatively immediate shift. When you talk about wages

540
00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:09,560
Speaker 2: going exponentially higher, a lot of that came from the

541
00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:13,520
Speaker 2: fact that people weren't supplying the labor that they needed,

542
00:32:13,560 --> 00:32:17,440
Speaker 2: so the market equilibrium for that went up. But also

543
00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:21,840
Speaker 2: past that, like there was a lot of superstition that

544
00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:24,640
Speaker 2: was leading people to not work with like the irony

545
00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:27,560
Speaker 2: being that, like the people that worked with dead bodies

546
00:32:28,240 --> 00:32:31,640
Speaker 2: were the safest people, and they also were like the

547
00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:32,640
Speaker 2: most well paid.

548
00:32:33,080 --> 00:32:35,920
Speaker 1: Why were they the safest, did they like practice better

549
00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:39,640
Speaker 1: hygiene or was it that like by the time someone

550
00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:41,560
Speaker 1: was dead, the fleas were gone.

551
00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:44,840
Speaker 2: Thing, Go, Yeah, it's exactly that. So like fleas don't

552
00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:47,360
Speaker 2: they don't hang out on a dead body. They don't

553
00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:49,080
Speaker 2: like a cold body, so they would leave.

554
00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:53,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, then I correct me if I'm wrong. But I

555
00:32:53,720 --> 00:32:57,280
Speaker 1: think there were other jobs that people saw as potentially

556
00:32:57,680 --> 00:33:02,120
Speaker 1: really dirty but that actually didn't actually resulted in lower

557
00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:05,400
Speaker 1: death rates, like people who would clean like sort of

558
00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:10,680
Speaker 1: the sewage systems, which were sometimes just like canals through

559
00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:13,800
Speaker 1: the streets, and people would wash more regularly when they

560
00:33:13,840 --> 00:33:17,800
Speaker 1: did that because it was stinky and the plague didn't.

561
00:33:18,160 --> 00:33:22,400
Speaker 1: Like there was this idea that foul odors might cause illness.

562
00:33:22,880 --> 00:33:26,480
Speaker 1: And while there's something really kind of interesting about that

563
00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:29,520
Speaker 1: right where it's like there's a bit of a there's

564
00:33:29,560 --> 00:33:32,760
Speaker 1: a bit of an yeah, exactly a correlation in this case,

565
00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:36,600
Speaker 1: like plague was not spread through feces, uh, And so

566
00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:39,719
Speaker 1: people who worked directly with feces, well not always some

567
00:33:39,960 --> 00:33:42,440
Speaker 1: like there's certain types of plague. We'll get into that

568
00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:44,880
Speaker 1: a bit, where there is a type of plague that

569
00:33:45,520 --> 00:33:50,440
Speaker 1: could potentially be spread from the bodily fluids of people.

570
00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:54,840
Speaker 1: But the main spread was through fleas, and so people

571
00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:57,479
Speaker 1: who would work, who would work with like you know,

572
00:33:57,560 --> 00:34:01,080
Speaker 1: the sewage, they would be washed a lot because it

573
00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:04,640
Speaker 1: was gross, and so that washing actually may have had

574
00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:08,320
Speaker 1: a protective effect where they didn't get as many fleas.

575
00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:14,560
Speaker 2: It's a lot like how religions that forbade pork, you

576
00:34:14,640 --> 00:34:18,120
Speaker 2: had a significant drop in trichinosis.

577
00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:20,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, just by chance essentially.

578
00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:23,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's just like, oh, okay, well.

579
00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:26,719
Speaker 1: Either by chance or that either by chance or people

580
00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:30,920
Speaker 1: made a correlation, but they didn't know why this happened.

581
00:34:31,080 --> 00:34:33,680
Speaker 1: And then it became sort of religious doctrine because it

582
00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:37,440
Speaker 1: like there were certain recipes for medications and stuff where

583
00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:41,200
Speaker 1: you would say a prayer as you were doing it,

584
00:34:41,680 --> 00:34:44,560
Speaker 1: and that actually provided the timing for like a chemical

585
00:34:44,600 --> 00:34:47,560
Speaker 1: reaction and it had obviously nothing to do with the

586
00:34:47,640 --> 00:34:50,440
Speaker 1: prayer incantation, but that kept time because people didn't have

587
00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:51,280
Speaker 1: stop watches.

588
00:34:52,480 --> 00:34:57,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's wild like the stuff that happened, Like there

589
00:34:57,239 --> 00:35:01,680
Speaker 2: were like touring groups of flagelens that would like they

590
00:35:01,719 --> 00:35:05,040
Speaker 2: would just go to different towns whipping themselves and being

591
00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:08,279
Speaker 2: but they were also like generally like scummy people that

592
00:35:08,320 --> 00:35:12,000
Speaker 2: would go by and would self flagellate in order to

593
00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:16,640
Speaker 2: like absorb the sins of the community, you know, like

594
00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:19,799
Speaker 2: because the thing about it was is like the church

595
00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:22,960
Speaker 2: was the center of everything at the time, and the

596
00:35:23,080 --> 00:35:28,520
Speaker 2: church fell apart during the Black Death, and the papacy

597
00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:32,640
Speaker 2: had already sort of revealed itself to be self serving

598
00:35:32,719 --> 00:35:35,720
Speaker 2: as they had relocated to Avignon in France at the time,

599
00:35:36,320 --> 00:35:37,279
Speaker 2: so during the.

600
00:35:37,160 --> 00:35:41,120
Speaker 1: Plague, always taking a charter plane off to Avignon. As

601
00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:44,319
Speaker 1: soon as stuff hits the flat, stuff hits the fan.

602
00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:49,600
Speaker 2: Well, so like there was the great Schism of where

603
00:35:49,640 --> 00:35:52,200
Speaker 2: they moved the papacy from Rome to Avignon, which caused

604
00:35:52,280 --> 00:35:55,920
Speaker 2: Rome to like fall apart anyway, and then you know

605
00:35:56,080 --> 00:35:59,120
Speaker 2: it was really just a king buying a pope and

606
00:35:59,360 --> 00:36:03,880
Speaker 2: having him live in his area. So it's one of

607
00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:07,239
Speaker 2: those things where like the papacy people were already like

608
00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:11,520
Speaker 2: this doesn't seem it doesn't seem very godly that you

609
00:36:11,560 --> 00:36:13,720
Speaker 2: guys just decides that you can move it. And then

610
00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:18,240
Speaker 2: when this shit's going down and the churches are closing,

611
00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:23,120
Speaker 2: they're refusing to give last rites while these rock star

612
00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:27,480
Speaker 2: flageleans are walking around and like they're like we'll do it,

613
00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:31,319
Speaker 2: and they became you know, you hate to say it,

614
00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:35,719
Speaker 2: but like they're like the Tea Party of very populous

615
00:36:35,880 --> 00:36:39,399
Speaker 2: that era, where like they're they're being populist, They're they

616
00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:42,960
Speaker 2: they're the ones that are diagnosing and recognizing problems. They

617
00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:46,839
Speaker 2: don't have an actual cure for it, but by recognizing it,

618
00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:51,319
Speaker 2: people felt seen. That's that's kind of one of the

619
00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:54,440
Speaker 2: ways that Trump got elected if you really think about it,

620
00:36:54,480 --> 00:36:57,520
Speaker 2: of he sees a problem and diagnosed it the way

621
00:36:57,600 --> 00:37:00,719
Speaker 2: Hillary didn't. He didn't have a plan forul no, but

622
00:37:00,920 --> 00:37:03,439
Speaker 2: just by seeing people people were like, oh, okay.

623
00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:05,839
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I mean it's a good point. I mean

624
00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:08,799
Speaker 1: I think that like, I mean, obviously there are a

625
00:37:08,840 --> 00:37:12,160
Speaker 1: lot of uh there, there are a lot of scapegoats.

626
00:37:12,239 --> 00:37:16,640
Speaker 1: During the plague times, there's a ton a ton of

627
00:37:16,680 --> 00:37:21,440
Speaker 1: anti semitism because you know, whenever, whenever there's a social problem,

628
00:37:21,480 --> 00:37:24,600
Speaker 1: it's just like, well, let's slap some anti semitism and

629
00:37:24,680 --> 00:37:25,600
Speaker 1: see how that works.

630
00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:30,759
Speaker 2: Ah poison Well term yeah was really popularized because of

631
00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:33,600
Speaker 2: the plague and the plug ROMs that would happen because

632
00:37:33,719 --> 00:37:34,480
Speaker 2: of the plague.

633
00:37:34,640 --> 00:37:38,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, And but really what the plague was caused by

634
00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:42,560
Speaker 1: was Ersinia pestis, which you mentioned earlier, like in every

635
00:37:42,640 --> 00:37:46,400
Speaker 1: case in like regardless of your your feelings about like

636
00:37:47,080 --> 00:37:50,800
Speaker 1: the years that you categorize these plagues, the first plague pandemic,

637
00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:53,880
Speaker 1: second plague pandemic, and the third plane plague pandemic, the

638
00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:59,440
Speaker 1: most recent one, all caused by this Orcinia pestis bacteria.

639
00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:02,680
Speaker 1: There are different forms or there are different types of

640
00:38:02,680 --> 00:38:06,320
Speaker 1: infection that this can cause. It can be pneumonic, which

641
00:38:06,360 --> 00:38:09,000
Speaker 1: is long infection, septusmic.

642
00:38:09,160 --> 00:38:13,080
Speaker 2: That's the coughing and sneezing one that's the mnemonic is

643
00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:15,279
Speaker 2: the one that spreads like wildfire.

644
00:38:15,480 --> 00:38:20,000
Speaker 1: Yes, because that one doesn't spread just through fleas. That

645
00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:24,160
Speaker 1: can also spread through body fluids and even droplets.

646
00:38:23,760 --> 00:38:27,439
Speaker 2: Of yes, because I think the words that they used.

647
00:38:28,280 --> 00:38:33,680
Speaker 1: There's also septasmic, which is blood infection, and bubonic, which

648
00:38:33,719 --> 00:38:35,799
Speaker 1: is I think the most well known one. And the

649
00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:39,120
Speaker 1: bubonic is infection of the lymph nodes, and those lymph

650
00:38:39,160 --> 00:38:42,000
Speaker 1: nodes when they swell, they form the bubos, the like

651
00:38:42,520 --> 00:38:46,880
Speaker 1: gross gnarly grape like bubbles on your skin, which is

652
00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:50,200
Speaker 1: really these like super inflamed lymph nodes.

653
00:38:52,320 --> 00:38:58,759
Speaker 2: Yeah. So so bubonic plague is the one that we

654
00:38:58,920 --> 00:39:03,200
Speaker 2: equate for the most part with and the two major

655
00:39:03,239 --> 00:39:06,680
Speaker 2: ones were numonic and bubonic at the time. Yeah, those

656
00:39:06,680 --> 00:39:09,520
Speaker 2: were the ones that people would see obviously knemonic can

657
00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:13,120
Speaker 2: see somebody coughing near you. That is going to give

658
00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:20,239
Speaker 2: us a much more recent example of a pandemic that

659
00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:22,279
Speaker 2: you have to be you know, it's one of those

660
00:39:22,320 --> 00:39:25,480
Speaker 2: things where like you can see now, and like why

661
00:39:25,560 --> 00:39:28,080
Speaker 2: I was really on edge because I also when I

662
00:39:28,120 --> 00:39:33,200
Speaker 2: was a teacher, I got swine flu. I got swine

663
00:39:33,239 --> 00:39:36,080
Speaker 2: flu from the kids I taught about plague. And so

664
00:39:36,280 --> 00:39:39,440
Speaker 2: when the pandemic had hit in twenty twenty, I was like,

665
00:39:40,040 --> 00:39:41,960
Speaker 2: and everyone's like, masks don't work. I was like, let

666
00:39:42,040 --> 00:39:44,960
Speaker 2: me explain to you how these like. I was like, look,

667
00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:46,560
Speaker 2: I'm not an expert, but I do. I am an

668
00:39:46,560 --> 00:39:51,200
Speaker 2: expert in the specific thing. So, but bubonic plague it

669
00:39:51,280 --> 00:39:54,320
Speaker 2: became the one that like was the visible, like oh

670
00:39:54,800 --> 00:39:59,480
Speaker 2: scenario and people the one thing people don't forget, like

671
00:39:59,600 --> 00:40:02,239
Speaker 2: it was isn't the death sentence that we think it

672
00:40:02,360 --> 00:40:06,760
Speaker 2: was at the time. People did survive it. There are

673
00:40:06,800 --> 00:40:09,480
Speaker 2: instances where there was like one town that like clearly

674
00:40:09,560 --> 00:40:13,479
Speaker 2: had immunity to it. Yeah, where they had gone through

675
00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:18,880
Speaker 2: and like there's also been fascinating studies about survivors of

676
00:40:19,080 --> 00:40:24,879
Speaker 2: plague having their descendants having an immunity to the HIV virus,

677
00:40:25,080 --> 00:40:30,040
Speaker 2: which is a weird phenomenon. That I'm not smart enough

678
00:40:30,080 --> 00:40:31,400
Speaker 2: to kind.

679
00:40:31,280 --> 00:40:33,720
Speaker 1: Of ampogenetic change maybe.

680
00:40:33,560 --> 00:40:38,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, like literally changing DNA to do that, and

681
00:40:38,800 --> 00:40:43,040
Speaker 2: that that's wild to me. But and again, I cannot

682
00:40:43,040 --> 00:40:45,800
Speaker 2: stress enough that even though I feel like I'm sounding smart,

683
00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:48,319
Speaker 2: I'm a very dumb mate. So don't ask me.

684
00:40:48,600 --> 00:40:51,000
Speaker 1: We're just we're all we're all dumb dumbs struggling in

685
00:40:51,040 --> 00:40:51,720
Speaker 1: this big world.

686
00:40:52,560 --> 00:40:55,600
Speaker 2: So like when you talk about your lymph nodes, the

687
00:40:55,640 --> 00:40:59,160
Speaker 2: ones that we most often think are right sort of

688
00:40:59,680 --> 00:41:02,919
Speaker 2: right the sides of your throats, right under the back

689
00:41:02,960 --> 00:41:08,040
Speaker 2: of your jaw, Yeah, the armpits and uh, unfortunately you're grond, you're.

690
00:41:07,920 --> 00:41:11,319
Speaker 1: Grind sort of in the you know where, like where

691
00:41:11,320 --> 00:41:15,480
Speaker 1: the Barbie Doll hinges are. It's the v But yeah,

692
00:41:15,520 --> 00:41:18,120
Speaker 1: we actually have we have many more lymph nodes than

693
00:41:18,160 --> 00:41:20,400
Speaker 1: that we have. Yeah, we have like a pair at

694
00:41:20,440 --> 00:41:22,360
Speaker 1: the back of our neck. We have a pair, like

695
00:41:22,360 --> 00:41:25,000
Speaker 1: there's both a pair like under your chin and then

696
00:41:25,040 --> 00:41:28,160
Speaker 1: at the base of your neck. Like you said, armpits.

697
00:41:28,400 --> 00:41:32,680
Speaker 1: We also have lymph nodes in the legs.

698
00:41:31,560 --> 00:41:35,320
Speaker 2: But yeah, they're clustered, they're most there, Their most visible

699
00:41:35,360 --> 00:41:38,640
Speaker 2: clusters are on those folds, I guess.

700
00:41:38,400 --> 00:41:40,680
Speaker 1: Right, And you'll feel them like if you have if

701
00:41:40,680 --> 00:41:43,360
Speaker 1: you ever had an infection. Sometimes you'll feel them and

702
00:41:43,360 --> 00:41:45,960
Speaker 1: they actually swell up a bit because they get inflamed

703
00:41:46,000 --> 00:41:48,960
Speaker 1: because they are kind of like the uh, waste management

704
00:41:49,120 --> 00:41:52,640
Speaker 1: centers of the body, where like they will help with

705
00:41:52,719 --> 00:41:59,359
Speaker 1: the flow of inflammatory cells. Uh. And then like when

706
00:42:00,040 --> 00:42:02,600
Speaker 1: when sort of like inflammation goes down, a lot of

707
00:42:02,600 --> 00:42:06,839
Speaker 1: that material is carried into the lymph nodes. Uh. And

708
00:42:06,920 --> 00:42:09,279
Speaker 1: so like it is kind of like they are very

709
00:42:09,320 --> 00:42:13,960
Speaker 1: reactive when you have an infection. But that's generally a

710
00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:16,799
Speaker 1: good thing, right because like you do want it's a

711
00:42:16,840 --> 00:42:18,400
Speaker 1: sign that your immune system is working.

712
00:42:19,719 --> 00:42:22,400
Speaker 2: Yeah. The unfortunate thing is that you're the human The

713
00:42:22,440 --> 00:42:25,239
Speaker 2: average human body cannot handle the speed at which your

714
00:42:25,239 --> 00:42:30,919
Speaker 2: siniopestics bacteria replicates. And so therefore it's basically and I'm

715
00:42:31,440 --> 00:42:33,360
Speaker 2: I'm trying to find a way to use this without

716
00:42:33,400 --> 00:42:37,000
Speaker 2: using another disease, but it's essentially giving your lymph nodes

717
00:42:37,040 --> 00:42:40,880
Speaker 2: a cancerous form of replication almost and I know that

718
00:42:40,880 --> 00:42:44,440
Speaker 2: that's not technically correct, but it's.

719
00:42:44,239 --> 00:42:48,000
Speaker 1: The exponential, right, It's the exponential growth of the bacteria.

720
00:42:48,360 --> 00:42:52,480
Speaker 1: It's like, there are so we can especially today, we

721
00:42:52,560 --> 00:42:55,160
Speaker 1: treat a lot of things with antibiotics, a lot of

722
00:42:55,160 --> 00:42:59,440
Speaker 1: bacterial infections with antibiotics, and so a lot of times

723
00:42:59,480 --> 00:43:03,560
Speaker 1: like bacterial infections are not such a big deal because

724
00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:05,600
Speaker 1: it's like, all right, we take an antibiotic and that

725
00:43:05,640 --> 00:43:10,640
Speaker 1: clears it up. There are some bacterial infections where it's

726
00:43:10,680 --> 00:43:13,480
Speaker 1: like the rate of replication of the bacteria are so

727
00:43:13,840 --> 00:43:18,319
Speaker 1: fast even our modern antibiotics can struggle to take care

728
00:43:18,360 --> 00:43:22,120
Speaker 1: of the infection. So things like necrotizing fasciitis is a

729
00:43:22,160 --> 00:43:27,680
Speaker 1: type of bacterial infection usually from like flesh wounds, where

730
00:43:27,840 --> 00:43:30,480
Speaker 1: it's just the rate of the bacterial growth is so

731
00:43:30,960 --> 00:43:35,520
Speaker 1: fast that it can be hard to treat it with antibiotics.

732
00:43:35,600 --> 00:43:38,959
Speaker 2: I mean, do you know what isn't one of those though, Yeah,

733
00:43:39,440 --> 00:43:44,200
Speaker 2: lague is a routine cycle of antibiotics will eliminate nowadays.

734
00:43:44,239 --> 00:43:46,920
Speaker 1: It is. It is something that is highly treatable. You

735
00:43:47,120 --> 00:43:49,880
Speaker 1: just do have to get it treated because if you don't,

736
00:43:50,000 --> 00:43:53,839
Speaker 1: it'll have the same effect as someone living, you know,

737
00:43:53,880 --> 00:43:56,480
Speaker 1: in the dark ages it's.

738
00:43:56,080 --> 00:43:58,440
Speaker 2: It's certainly one of those things. I see this happen

739
00:43:59,320 --> 00:44:02,600
Speaker 2: a lot on social media where somebody will share a

740
00:44:02,640 --> 00:44:08,120
Speaker 2: story about how somebody got plague Phoenix man gets plague.

741
00:44:08,080 --> 00:44:09,359
Speaker 1: And people panic.

742
00:44:09,600 --> 00:44:12,160
Speaker 2: And they go, oh, like we need this again.

743
00:44:12,400 --> 00:44:16,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it happens. It happens every year. A few

744
00:44:16,280 --> 00:44:19,160
Speaker 1: people get plague in the US, about.

745
00:44:18,920 --> 00:44:21,920
Speaker 2: Twelve people a year. Yeah, get plague in the US.

746
00:44:22,320 --> 00:44:26,480
Speaker 2: It is the it's it's funny because of how dominant

747
00:44:26,520 --> 00:44:28,720
Speaker 2: it was back in the Y. It's like Michael Jordan

748
00:44:28,840 --> 00:44:32,080
Speaker 2: playing for the Wizards. You're like, man, you were dominant

749
00:44:32,080 --> 00:44:35,400
Speaker 2: at one point in time. I'm just not impressed.

750
00:44:35,840 --> 00:44:38,480
Speaker 1: Yeah. There's a few. Yeah, there's a few reasons that

751
00:44:38,560 --> 00:44:45,719
Speaker 1: plague is no longer a huge concern. One is like antibiotics,

752
00:44:46,600 --> 00:44:51,440
Speaker 1: that the power of antibiotics is really incredible. Also hygiene,

753
00:44:52,120 --> 00:44:55,400
Speaker 1: the fact that we human beings are no longer covered

754
00:44:56,000 --> 00:44:59,800
Speaker 1: in fleas and body lice pretty much at all times

755
00:45:00,120 --> 00:45:04,799
Speaker 1: we used to be. And so the combination of like

756
00:45:04,880 --> 00:45:09,399
Speaker 1: hygiene and antibiotics, like changes in our hygiene practices and

757
00:45:09,600 --> 00:45:12,120
Speaker 1: in our anti like people did not people would not

758
00:45:12,239 --> 00:45:16,160
Speaker 1: regularly bathe a lot like they would do some washing

759
00:45:16,200 --> 00:45:18,439
Speaker 1: like it's not true that they just like would never

760
00:45:18,719 --> 00:45:21,760
Speaker 1: wash themselves right there. There would be some forms of washing,

761
00:45:21,800 --> 00:45:26,080
Speaker 1: of course, like people people were not so fundamentally different

762
00:45:26,800 --> 00:45:30,680
Speaker 1: in you know, the olden times like in the Middle

763
00:45:30,719 --> 00:45:35,160
Speaker 1: Ages or medieval period that they also did not want

764
00:45:35,160 --> 00:45:39,799
Speaker 1: to reek and be stinky and gross. But it's not

765
00:45:39,840 --> 00:45:43,839
Speaker 1: like they had showers, and like heating up enough bath water,

766
00:45:43,880 --> 00:45:46,680
Speaker 1: getting enough bath water to take a bath was really hard.

767
00:45:46,760 --> 00:45:50,080
Speaker 1: So people would do things like wipe themselves down essentially

768
00:45:50,160 --> 00:45:53,080
Speaker 1: right like they do like little bird baths, like to

769
00:45:53,160 --> 00:45:56,160
Speaker 1: kind of like wipe themselves down to clean themselves. But

770
00:45:56,520 --> 00:45:59,560
Speaker 1: having like it's not like everyone had soap. That was

771
00:45:59,640 --> 00:46:04,160
Speaker 1: not like, you know, something that everyone could afford to have. Uh,

772
00:46:04,239 --> 00:46:09,000
Speaker 1: certainly people didn't just all have indoor plumbing. That was

773
00:46:09,480 --> 00:46:14,240
Speaker 1: you know, the mass availability of plumbing of like water.

774
00:46:14,480 --> 00:46:19,840
Speaker 2: Explaining chamber pots to eighth graders was real fun and

775
00:46:21,320 --> 00:46:25,000
Speaker 2: something something to wit to which we had mentioned earlier,

776
00:46:25,040 --> 00:46:28,240
Speaker 2: and I forgot to mention that like obviously like feces

777
00:46:28,280 --> 00:46:33,440
Speaker 2: doesn't carry plague, rats don't hate feces, that's true, and

778
00:46:33,440 --> 00:46:36,480
Speaker 2: and so they would Uh that's actually one of the

779
00:46:36,520 --> 00:46:40,600
Speaker 2: problems would with sort of the rats, and how it

780
00:46:40,680 --> 00:46:44,560
Speaker 2: was spread is that the as you had said, essentially

781
00:46:44,600 --> 00:46:48,120
Speaker 2: you'd have ditches, like sewage was ditches in the streets

782
00:46:48,200 --> 00:46:51,400
Speaker 2: that people would empty their pots into and the rats

783
00:46:51,760 --> 00:46:54,880
Speaker 2: fucking loved that. They that is like that is like

784
00:46:54,920 --> 00:46:59,600
Speaker 2: a rat yeah and so h and so in that

785
00:46:59,640 --> 00:47:02,040
Speaker 2: regard too, like that's that is how a lot of

786
00:47:02,040 --> 00:47:05,120
Speaker 2: people would you know, literally that the process of showing

787
00:47:05,200 --> 00:47:09,160
Speaker 2: away a rat could get Yeah, the thing that would

788
00:47:09,200 --> 00:47:10,560
Speaker 2: have given And actually.

789
00:47:10,280 --> 00:47:12,919
Speaker 1: Like even if it was like, well we can kill

790
00:47:13,040 --> 00:47:15,640
Speaker 1: rats and that should help with the plague, right, Well,

791
00:47:16,239 --> 00:47:18,160
Speaker 1: when a rat dies, where do the fleas go?

792
00:47:19,320 --> 00:47:21,480
Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, they're not going to stick around, so they're

793
00:47:21,480 --> 00:47:21,920
Speaker 2: going to move.

794
00:47:22,160 --> 00:47:25,000
Speaker 1: So like, in fact, a lot of plagues were preceded

795
00:47:25,040 --> 00:47:27,319
Speaker 1: by something called rat fall, where it was like a

796
00:47:27,360 --> 00:47:30,760
Speaker 1: bunch of rats dying and then you started seeing plague

797
00:47:30,800 --> 00:47:33,120
Speaker 1: and people because the rats would get the plague first

798
00:47:33,120 --> 00:47:35,399
Speaker 1: and they'd start dying. And then when the rats die,

799
00:47:35,719 --> 00:47:39,360
Speaker 1: the fleas jump to somewhere else, which was often humans

800
00:47:39,640 --> 00:47:42,399
Speaker 1: because they lived near humans, and so you would get

801
00:47:42,400 --> 00:47:47,120
Speaker 1: this kind of like very notable rat die off before

802
00:47:47,719 --> 00:47:52,040
Speaker 1: a plague outbreak. But something that is really interesting is

803
00:47:52,120 --> 00:47:58,759
Speaker 1: like the commonly understood knowledge is that rats were the

804
00:47:58,800 --> 00:48:02,880
Speaker 1: main drivers of plague and we're the drivers of the

805
00:48:02,880 --> 00:48:08,200
Speaker 1: Black Death. But there is a more recent sort of

806
00:48:09,000 --> 00:48:11,680
Speaker 1: method of research that is examining this and it's not

807
00:48:11,920 --> 00:48:17,799
Speaker 1: it's not questioning whether rats transmit the plague. That's absolutely

808
00:48:18,000 --> 00:48:21,359
Speaker 1: know that we know that rats carry plague and can

809
00:48:21,360 --> 00:48:25,200
Speaker 1: transmit it to humans and can definitely either spark a

810
00:48:25,239 --> 00:48:28,640
Speaker 1: plague or contribute to a plague. But the question is

811
00:48:28,760 --> 00:48:34,480
Speaker 1: we're rats the main culprits behind the Black Death plague.

812
00:48:35,200 --> 00:48:37,799
Speaker 2: That's interesting. I'm interested to see where this is going.

813
00:48:37,960 --> 00:48:41,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, So this is covered by a National Geographic article

814
00:48:42,000 --> 00:48:47,880
Speaker 1: by Michael Greshko which highlights a paper in PNAS called

815
00:48:47,960 --> 00:48:50,680
Speaker 1: Human Ectoparasites in the Spread of Plague in Europe during

816
00:48:50,719 --> 00:48:56,319
Speaker 1: the Second Pandemic by Dean Krawer, Wallow, and Schmid. So,

817
00:48:56,560 --> 00:49:04,200
Speaker 1: these researchers used these models to kind of plot out

818
00:49:04,800 --> 00:49:11,239
Speaker 1: essentially expected human versus rat caused propagation of plague. So

819
00:49:11,400 --> 00:49:14,080
Speaker 1: like if you they looked at like, okay, if you

820
00:49:14,360 --> 00:49:17,880
Speaker 1: if it was primarily rap to human propagation of plague

821
00:49:18,280 --> 00:49:21,200
Speaker 1: or human to human propagation of plague, what would it

822
00:49:21,239 --> 00:49:24,399
Speaker 1: look like in this model? That they created and then

823
00:49:24,480 --> 00:49:30,279
Speaker 1: compared that to historical records of mortality patterns during the

824
00:49:30,320 --> 00:49:34,840
Speaker 1: Second Plague pandemic during like different kind of plague outbreaks,

825
00:49:34,840 --> 00:49:39,200
Speaker 1: different cities, and they found that not in all, but

826
00:49:39,360 --> 00:49:43,440
Speaker 1: in most cases that they examined, the human spread model,

827
00:49:43,520 --> 00:49:47,040
Speaker 1: like primarily it being from human to human was a

828
00:49:47,280 --> 00:49:53,280
Speaker 1: better fit for historical mortality records than rat to human driven.

829
00:49:54,239 --> 00:49:59,480
Speaker 2: That's interesting. I obviously, you know, I'm not an expert

830
00:49:59,520 --> 00:50:01,880
Speaker 2: and I'm not s studying that. I think that that

831
00:50:01,960 --> 00:50:04,080
Speaker 2: also does kind of feel like it has a slightly

832
00:50:04,120 --> 00:50:08,880
Speaker 2: semantic point to it, which is like, well, once it

833
00:50:08,920 --> 00:50:11,640
Speaker 2: got into the humans, they spread it faster. It's like, well, yeah,

834
00:50:11,680 --> 00:50:13,319
Speaker 2: we hang out with humans more than we hang out

835
00:50:13,320 --> 00:50:17,720
Speaker 2: with rats. But the fact that the usiniapesist bacteria lays

836
00:50:17,920 --> 00:50:23,560
Speaker 2: essentially dormant in a rat's body, it doesn't particularly kill

837
00:50:23,640 --> 00:50:29,440
Speaker 2: them the way it kills us, obviously like they're going

838
00:50:29,480 --> 00:50:33,759
Speaker 2: to have a more a greater efficacy in doing that,

839
00:50:33,840 --> 00:50:37,560
Speaker 2: as opposed to the humans who are like, oh yeah,

840
00:50:37,760 --> 00:50:40,480
Speaker 2: these swellings in here. People are like I'm out, I'm gone.

841
00:50:40,960 --> 00:50:44,279
Speaker 1: No, I mean, it's an it's an unexpected thing, right,

842
00:50:44,440 --> 00:50:50,040
Speaker 1: But like the idea is not necessarily that I think

843
00:50:50,080 --> 00:50:53,160
Speaker 1: it's like, it's not it's not necessarily semantic, because it

844
00:50:53,400 --> 00:50:59,080
Speaker 1: is the idea of like what because if it's kind

845
00:50:59,080 --> 00:51:03,000
Speaker 1: of tracking like the patterns of the Black Death and

846
00:51:03,040 --> 00:51:05,919
Speaker 1: the plague in terms of like, was it like these

847
00:51:06,040 --> 00:51:12,120
Speaker 1: human sort of social and travel patterns driving plague or

848
00:51:12,280 --> 00:51:17,200
Speaker 1: was it that you know, you had, say, like a

849
00:51:17,280 --> 00:51:20,200
Speaker 1: rat population in this area that was the one that

850
00:51:20,280 --> 00:51:22,560
Speaker 1: like triggered the plague or drove the plague. And in

851
00:51:22,680 --> 00:51:27,600
Speaker 1: terms of like, I think that the the interesting aspect

852
00:51:27,680 --> 00:51:30,839
Speaker 1: of this is like, obviously it's not like disproving that

853
00:51:30,960 --> 00:51:36,080
Speaker 1: rats can cause or exacerbate plague in areas. It is

854
00:51:36,960 --> 00:51:41,080
Speaker 1: kind of figuring out what exactly, like what drove specific

855
00:51:41,600 --> 00:51:44,840
Speaker 1: plague outright, Yeah, yeah.

856
00:51:44,600 --> 00:51:48,680
Speaker 2: Exactly, Yeah, absolutely, trade and and so that that's that's

857
00:51:48,680 --> 00:51:52,000
Speaker 2: a point. That's a part of it is that you know, yes,

858
00:51:52,120 --> 00:51:54,480
Speaker 2: humans did that, but also it's important to note how

859
00:51:54,480 --> 00:51:56,480
Speaker 2: many rats like to hang out on trade chips.

860
00:51:56,600 --> 00:51:59,360
Speaker 1: No, I mean that's a that's a really complicating factor.

861
00:51:59,560 --> 00:52:03,720
Speaker 1: I mean, well, rats and trade routes, like trade routes

862
00:52:04,200 --> 00:52:08,440
Speaker 1: determined the where rats ended up because rats are not

863
00:52:08,480 --> 00:52:11,640
Speaker 1: it's not like rats suddenly popped up on every continent

864
00:52:11,680 --> 00:52:15,640
Speaker 1: in the world. Rats probably originated I mean I think

865
00:52:17,400 --> 00:52:22,279
Speaker 1: they may have originated in Southeast Asia or China, and

866
00:52:22,320 --> 00:52:25,959
Speaker 1: then they eventually got into all corners of the route

867
00:52:26,280 --> 00:52:30,279
Speaker 1: of the world through human trade. So like so if

868
00:52:30,280 --> 00:52:34,040
Speaker 1: you're looking at trade routes, right, it's it's gonna be

869
00:52:34,080 --> 00:52:36,440
Speaker 1: hard to tease a part whether the humans on the

870
00:52:36,440 --> 00:52:39,000
Speaker 1: boat were spreading plague or whether the rats on the

871
00:52:39,040 --> 00:52:41,520
Speaker 1: boat were spreading plague, because there was not a boat

872
00:52:41,560 --> 00:52:44,280
Speaker 1: that didn't have rats on it at this time.

873
00:52:45,239 --> 00:52:50,279
Speaker 2: And it's it's important to see too because obviously, like

874
00:52:50,360 --> 00:52:52,399
Speaker 2: when when I would teach about trade and you would

875
00:52:52,440 --> 00:52:54,840
Speaker 2: talk about like, look, it's the answer for all trade

876
00:52:54,920 --> 00:52:59,359
Speaker 2: is water. Like water is is your trade inlet so

877
00:52:59,600 --> 00:53:03,440
Speaker 2: like your highways. And if I may kind of branch

878
00:53:03,480 --> 00:53:06,160
Speaker 2: off for a split second, I would I would actually

879
00:53:06,160 --> 00:53:09,560
Speaker 2: compare because this was you know, you know, twenty twelve,

880
00:53:09,719 --> 00:53:13,360
Speaker 2: and before I would, I would compare towns and cities

881
00:53:13,880 --> 00:53:17,399
Speaker 2: to malls. And you would say, like if you pick

882
00:53:17,440 --> 00:53:19,360
Speaker 2: a mall, like imagine a mall in your head, and

883
00:53:19,400 --> 00:53:21,960
Speaker 2: anybody who is listening picture your local mall if it's

884
00:53:22,000 --> 00:53:24,440
Speaker 2: still open, and you will know that it is among

885
00:53:24,480 --> 00:53:26,840
Speaker 2: two major trade routes, and by say trade routes, I

886
00:53:26,880 --> 00:53:31,080
Speaker 2: mean highways. So like malls are almost always wedged between

887
00:53:31,200 --> 00:53:36,160
Speaker 2: two major highways, Los Angeles has a slightly different scenario

888
00:53:36,200 --> 00:53:39,919
Speaker 2: on that because it's a more of a whatever.

889
00:53:39,800 --> 00:53:43,120
Speaker 1: Endless web of tangled intersections.

890
00:53:43,640 --> 00:53:47,960
Speaker 2: But for most people, like if you live in you know, Massachusetts,

891
00:53:48,120 --> 00:53:50,520
Speaker 2: and you're like, oh, the Auburn Mall, because that was ours,

892
00:53:50,520 --> 00:53:52,080
Speaker 2: the Auburn Mall, and I'd be like, look, there's the

893
00:53:52,080 --> 00:53:54,160
Speaker 2: mass Pike, there's two ninety, there's three ninety five, there's

894
00:53:54,239 --> 00:53:56,560
Speaker 2: rough twenty right in the middle of those intersections as

895
00:53:56,600 --> 00:53:58,960
Speaker 2: a mall, and you would do that with every major

896
00:53:59,040 --> 00:54:00,959
Speaker 2: mall in an area. Yeah, and you'd be like, here's

897
00:54:01,040 --> 00:54:04,600
Speaker 2: where the two highways intersect. There's them all, and the

898
00:54:04,640 --> 00:54:06,800
Speaker 2: bigger the highway, the more successful to them all that

899
00:54:07,440 --> 00:54:12,800
Speaker 2: so that same thing. Waterways were the highways of history obviously,

900
00:54:13,239 --> 00:54:18,920
Speaker 2: and so the more waterways you had, if you look

901
00:54:18,960 --> 00:54:20,719
Speaker 2: at it, you're going to say, obviously, the more trade.

902
00:54:20,719 --> 00:54:24,120
Speaker 2: But that's also going to show you the more plague.

903
00:54:23,840 --> 00:54:27,440
Speaker 1: Deaths, right, and the more and the more rats.

904
00:54:27,480 --> 00:54:31,239
Speaker 2: Which is yeah, which is why Italy got hit so

905
00:54:31,440 --> 00:54:36,520
Speaker 2: brutally is because they were the trade center of Europe. Yeah,

906
00:54:36,560 --> 00:54:38,560
Speaker 2: and so you know when you talk about you know,

907
00:54:39,040 --> 00:54:43,040
Speaker 2: the Lombard Leagues and all the stuff that went through

908
00:54:43,040 --> 00:54:46,680
Speaker 2: there and all the trade battles and wars that were

909
00:54:46,680 --> 00:54:47,000
Speaker 2: going on.

910
00:54:47,160 --> 00:54:49,080
Speaker 1: And also Italy used to be a bunch of different

911
00:54:49,120 --> 00:54:52,840
Speaker 1: countries ruled by like incredibly wealthy families.

912
00:54:53,680 --> 00:54:56,840
Speaker 2: So yeah, yeah, everyone thinks Italy is super old, and

913
00:54:56,840 --> 00:54:58,879
Speaker 2: it's like that's like eighteen eighty or something.

914
00:54:59,200 --> 00:55:03,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, definitely stuff is super old here because

915
00:55:03,560 --> 00:55:07,799
Speaker 1: like there's the buildings still exist. But yeah, Italy is

916
00:55:07,800 --> 00:55:11,840
Speaker 1: a unified countries relatively recent from the eighteen hundreds.

917
00:55:12,400 --> 00:55:16,920
Speaker 2: Italy and Germany are incredibly young countries, yes, just they

918
00:55:17,000 --> 00:55:21,000
Speaker 2: happen to be existing on incredibly ancient Yeah.

919
00:55:21,040 --> 00:55:22,480
Speaker 1: Younger than the US.

920
00:55:23,040 --> 00:55:27,640
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, by like by a century, yes, but so

921
00:55:27,840 --> 00:55:30,920
Speaker 2: like but when you see like Italy got decimated and

922
00:55:30,960 --> 00:55:33,600
Speaker 2: then you look at like all the different trade porting

923
00:55:33,680 --> 00:55:36,840
Speaker 2: cities in all these different areas and they got absolutely destroyed.

924
00:55:36,960 --> 00:55:40,279
Speaker 2: It's actually one of the reasons that the like the

925
00:55:40,960 --> 00:55:46,279
Speaker 2: web the crust of the of Britain got absolutely decimated

926
00:55:46,360 --> 00:55:49,439
Speaker 2: because of of all the trade. Like islands got hit

927
00:55:49,520 --> 00:55:55,120
Speaker 2: real bad because you know, there's no there's no escape really.

928
00:55:55,360 --> 00:55:57,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, And so I think like when you're looking at

929
00:55:57,719 --> 00:56:00,919
Speaker 1: like whether it fall, it's it absolutely follows trade routes.

930
00:56:00,960 --> 00:56:02,959
Speaker 1: But then that doesn't really inform us too much about

931
00:56:02,960 --> 00:56:05,239
Speaker 1: whether it was humans or rats. Right, Like you could

932
00:56:05,239 --> 00:56:08,000
Speaker 1: say like, well, humans caused it because we're the ones

933
00:56:08,040 --> 00:56:10,319
Speaker 1: on the boats, But when we're talking in terms of

934
00:56:10,360 --> 00:56:13,480
Speaker 1: sort of an epidemiological perspective, it's like, well, y is

935
00:56:13,520 --> 00:56:16,600
Speaker 1: it from rat to human or human to human? And

936
00:56:16,680 --> 00:56:20,640
Speaker 1: so what this these researchers are contending is that while

937
00:56:20,960 --> 00:56:24,160
Speaker 1: it doesn't account for all of the outbreaks, like a

938
00:56:24,160 --> 00:56:27,840
Speaker 1: lot of outbreaks at this time may have been mainly

939
00:56:28,600 --> 00:56:34,160
Speaker 1: like driven from human, like direct human to human transmission

940
00:56:34,320 --> 00:56:37,000
Speaker 1: rather than rat to human. Even if the rat to

941
00:56:37,080 --> 00:56:42,280
Speaker 1: human initiated it, there may have been greater amounts of

942
00:56:42,320 --> 00:56:45,280
Speaker 1: like human to human transmission once the ball got rolling.

943
00:56:45,920 --> 00:56:48,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's I think it's it's the rats are the

944
00:56:48,520 --> 00:56:54,720
Speaker 2: match and the forest fire happened, Yeah, exactly off the match.

945
00:56:55,120 --> 00:56:57,479
Speaker 1: So one one last thing I want to talk about

946
00:56:57,480 --> 00:56:59,960
Speaker 1: with in terms of rats is there's this really interesting thing,

947
00:57:00,080 --> 00:57:04,480
Speaker 1: which is that because rats are so closely tied to

948
00:57:05,000 --> 00:57:09,600
Speaker 1: humans in terms of they I mean, they love us,

949
00:57:09,600 --> 00:57:12,880
Speaker 1: they love our buildings, they love our food, and anywhere

950
00:57:12,960 --> 00:57:19,000
Speaker 1: humans go pretty much rats will follow. They can actually

951
00:57:19,000 --> 00:57:23,720
Speaker 1: give us clues in terms of human history, archaeological clues

952
00:57:24,240 --> 00:57:27,560
Speaker 1: when we can't say use like direct evidence from humans,

953
00:57:27,600 --> 00:57:31,600
Speaker 1: we can actually examine rats, you know, rat bones in

954
00:57:31,800 --> 00:57:34,520
Speaker 1: order to understand what humans were doing at the time,

955
00:57:34,560 --> 00:57:37,920
Speaker 1: because the rats would be essentially hanging around the humans.

956
00:57:37,960 --> 00:57:41,560
Speaker 1: So there's a study by Swift at All that looked

957
00:57:41,560 --> 00:57:45,800
Speaker 1: at rat bones found on Polynesian islands, and analysis of

958
00:57:45,840 --> 00:57:49,400
Speaker 1: these bones allowed researchers to actually infer the diet of

959
00:57:49,600 --> 00:57:55,120
Speaker 1: humans from two thousand years ago, because the rats were

960
00:57:55,240 --> 00:57:58,600
Speaker 1: understood to have probably eaten a lot of our scraps.

961
00:57:58,600 --> 00:58:00,520
Speaker 1: And so if you find these rat bones that have

962
00:58:01,720 --> 00:58:04,640
Speaker 1: sort of interesting sort of composition in an area of

963
00:58:04,680 --> 00:58:07,280
Speaker 1: the island, you can actually kind of infer like what

964
00:58:07,360 --> 00:58:11,160
Speaker 1: kind of agriculture were we doing? Were people eating a

965
00:58:11,200 --> 00:58:13,120
Speaker 1: lot of fish or were they eating a lot of

966
00:58:13,320 --> 00:58:17,240
Speaker 1: sort of you know, fruits and vegetables and stuff and so.

967
00:58:18,240 --> 00:58:21,240
Speaker 1: And the reason you would use rat bones not human

968
00:58:21,280 --> 00:58:25,120
Speaker 1: bones is just because of the abundance of rat bones.

969
00:58:25,200 --> 00:58:28,439
Speaker 1: Rats are super abundant and they can provide a huge

970
00:58:28,440 --> 00:58:33,560
Speaker 1: amount of archaeological samples over vast periods of time, so.

971
00:58:33,560 --> 00:58:37,600
Speaker 2: Many bones, so many bones. We love a rat bone. Yeah,

972
00:58:37,080 --> 00:58:40,200
Speaker 2: and again like it's one of those things where we

973
00:58:40,280 --> 00:58:42,800
Speaker 2: came in here, and like, obviously there's a lot of

974
00:58:43,560 --> 00:58:47,880
Speaker 2: negativity about rats. I get it, Like I understand. I

975
00:58:47,880 --> 00:58:50,360
Speaker 2: don't feel comfortable when I see a rat. No, I

976
00:58:50,400 --> 00:58:52,560
Speaker 2: feel like if we're over someone like there are there

977
00:58:52,600 --> 00:58:54,480
Speaker 2: are also like and this is weird, not to be

978
00:58:55,200 --> 00:58:58,680
Speaker 2: not to insult any listeners, but like rat ownership is

979
00:58:58,720 --> 00:59:00,760
Speaker 2: like right on a par with snake ownership with me,

980
00:59:01,360 --> 00:59:03,240
Speaker 2: where like when I know somebody that has one of

981
00:59:03,280 --> 00:59:05,040
Speaker 2: those animals, I'm like, I don't think we need to

982
00:59:05,080 --> 00:59:08,640
Speaker 2: hang out, maybe a little judgmental.

983
00:59:09,000 --> 00:59:11,960
Speaker 1: I like them. I don't have a rat or a snake,

984
00:59:12,040 --> 00:59:14,360
Speaker 1: but if someone owns a rat or a snake, I

985
00:59:14,400 --> 00:59:16,360
Speaker 1: want to pet the rat. Well, I don't want to

986
00:59:16,360 --> 00:59:18,400
Speaker 1: pet the snake. I want the snake to just I

987
00:59:18,480 --> 00:59:20,360
Speaker 1: want to chill with the snake because I don't think

988
00:59:20,360 --> 00:59:23,640
Speaker 1: the snake likes to be pet but I'm into it.

989
00:59:23,720 --> 00:59:27,120
Speaker 1: I don't. I don't like to me. The the problem

990
00:59:27,200 --> 00:59:29,280
Speaker 1: with owning a rat to me is I feel like

991
00:59:29,280 --> 00:59:31,640
Speaker 1: I would make an emotional connection to this rat. And

992
00:59:31,800 --> 00:59:34,080
Speaker 1: the rats live span is pretty short. It's like two

993
00:59:34,160 --> 00:59:37,360
Speaker 1: to four years, and that just feels because like apparently

994
00:59:37,440 --> 00:59:40,720
Speaker 1: rats get really like attached to you and like they

995
00:59:40,840 --> 00:59:43,440
Speaker 1: will snuggle up to you and come when you call

996
00:59:43,480 --> 00:59:46,000
Speaker 1: their name and stuff, and that's like like okay, So

997
00:59:46,200 --> 00:59:50,880
Speaker 1: essentially this is a small trash dog and so if

998
00:59:50,920 --> 00:59:53,000
Speaker 1: it's got such a short live span, I feel like

999
00:59:53,040 --> 00:59:53,960
Speaker 1: it would destroy me.

1000
00:59:54,920 --> 00:59:57,160
Speaker 2: Every two years, you'd have to make across to that

1001
00:59:57,320 --> 00:59:58,200
Speaker 2: rainbow bridge.

1002
00:59:58,360 --> 01:00:02,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, no, it's that's too much. That's too much

1003
01:00:02,480 --> 01:00:05,560
Speaker 1: for me. But look, I I I understand the appeal

1004
01:00:05,560 --> 01:00:08,600
Speaker 1: of them as pets because they are I mean, you.

1005
01:00:08,600 --> 01:00:10,000
Speaker 2: Can tickle the guys.

1006
01:00:10,160 --> 01:00:12,360
Speaker 1: You can tickle, you can tickle them, and then they

1007
01:00:12,600 --> 01:00:16,439
Speaker 1: I mean, we can't necessarily hear uh these squeaks because

1008
01:00:16,440 --> 01:00:18,160
Speaker 1: they're so high pitched. But you can tickle them and

1009
01:00:18,200 --> 01:00:20,720
Speaker 1: then they make really high pitched squeaks because they're essentially

1010
01:00:20,720 --> 01:00:22,200
Speaker 1: giggling and that's adorable.

1011
01:00:23,560 --> 01:00:30,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then you know, they wipe out a massive population. Yeah.

1012
01:00:30,160 --> 01:00:34,520
Speaker 2: Also and also like take little dumps by my laundry. Well,

1013
01:00:34,680 --> 01:00:36,600
Speaker 2: and I don't like that. Well, I don't like that

1014
01:00:37,200 --> 01:00:38,840
Speaker 2: I have to I have to. I had to take

1015
01:00:38,840 --> 01:00:42,000
Speaker 2: a little dustbuster and suck up some turds that were

1016
01:00:42,000 --> 01:00:42,520
Speaker 2: next to my.

1017
01:00:42,680 --> 01:00:46,680
Speaker 1: Uh who among us hasn't done taken a dump near

1018
01:00:46,760 --> 01:00:47,520
Speaker 1: Jeff's laundry?

1019
01:00:47,520 --> 01:00:51,360
Speaker 2: Though, well it is fair. I do have a rotating

1020
01:00:52,720 --> 01:00:54,240
Speaker 2: scenario where that does happen.

1021
01:00:54,920 --> 01:00:57,600
Speaker 1: Uh. Anyways, Jeff, before we go, we got to play

1022
01:00:57,640 --> 01:01:00,800
Speaker 1: a little game called Guess Who's squaw and the Mystery

1023
01:01:00,800 --> 01:01:05,520
Speaker 1: Animal Sound Game. Every week I select a sound for you,

1024
01:01:05,600 --> 01:01:07,480
Speaker 1: and you the listener, and you the guests, try to

1025
01:01:07,520 --> 01:01:09,919
Speaker 1: guess who is making this sound. It can be any

1026
01:01:09,960 --> 01:01:13,200
Speaker 1: animal in the world. The hint for this one is

1027
01:01:13,600 --> 01:01:17,160
Speaker 1: this is a very common sound, so the trick is

1028
01:01:17,200 --> 01:01:26,280
Speaker 1: more about the timing. All right, you.

1029
01:01:26,280 --> 01:01:31,680
Speaker 2: Got any guesses, I'm gonna guess it's We used to

1030
01:01:31,720 --> 01:01:34,440
Speaker 2: call them peepers, the little frogs, A little frog.

1031
01:01:36,480 --> 01:01:40,400
Speaker 1: That is a very good guess. This is actually a cricket,

1032
01:01:41,000 --> 01:01:47,040
Speaker 1: but it has been slowed down significantly. So this is

1033
01:01:47,880 --> 01:01:51,320
Speaker 1: the sound that a cricket chirp makes. And we're not

1034
01:01:51,520 --> 01:01:55,040
Speaker 1: just slowing it down to trick you, although that's definitely

1035
01:01:55,080 --> 01:01:59,280
Speaker 1: part of it, and I love tricking people. But part

1036
01:01:59,320 --> 01:02:02,560
Speaker 1: of it is this concept that something like a cricket

1037
01:02:02,680 --> 01:02:06,280
Speaker 1: may experience the world in a different way that we

1038
01:02:06,400 --> 01:02:11,880
Speaker 1: do in terms of like the sort of the idea

1039
01:02:12,000 --> 01:02:14,880
Speaker 1: is that there is a rate at which their brains

1040
01:02:14,920 --> 01:02:19,160
Speaker 1: can process information that is a lot slower, and so

1041
01:02:20,280 --> 01:02:22,720
Speaker 1: when they would experience the world things would actually kind

1042
01:02:22,760 --> 01:02:26,640
Speaker 1: of be slowed down in a crickety way. It's hard

1043
01:02:26,680 --> 01:02:28,000
Speaker 1: to know what it would be like to be a

1044
01:02:28,040 --> 01:02:31,440
Speaker 1: cricket because they're just so incredibly different. It's not like

1045
01:02:31,640 --> 01:02:34,680
Speaker 1: avataring a human consciousness inside a cricket body.

1046
01:02:35,000 --> 01:02:37,240
Speaker 2: No, you'd have to like rub your legs together.

1047
01:02:37,600 --> 01:02:42,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, well essentially, yes, So crickets use stridulation to produce

1048
01:02:42,680 --> 01:02:47,080
Speaker 1: their chip chirping sound, which is rubbing these textured parts together,

1049
01:02:47,160 --> 01:02:51,240
Speaker 1: like their legs, and male crickets chirp to attract females

1050
01:02:51,440 --> 01:02:55,600
Speaker 1: as well as worn males away from their territory. Weirdly,

1051
01:02:55,760 --> 01:02:59,760
Speaker 1: sometimes they also will chirp after mating as a way

1052
01:02:59,800 --> 01:03:02,600
Speaker 1: to encourage the female to kind of like stick around

1053
01:03:02,720 --> 01:03:05,240
Speaker 1: and lay our eggs rather than just go off and

1054
01:03:05,280 --> 01:03:10,080
Speaker 1: mate with another male immediately. So very romantic.

1055
01:03:11,160 --> 01:03:14,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, I I always like, uh so not to make

1056
01:03:14,600 --> 01:03:16,640
Speaker 2: this episode about things that have been in my house,

1057
01:03:16,720 --> 01:03:19,400
Speaker 2: but like you know, whenever a cricket gets in the house.

1058
01:03:20,040 --> 01:03:22,120
Speaker 2: Cricket gets in the house and it starts chirping, and

1059
01:03:22,160 --> 01:03:25,760
Speaker 2: you're like, you're not gonna get laid in here, man, Yeah,

1060
01:03:25,800 --> 01:03:27,640
Speaker 2: it's not gonna work. What are you doing. Let's get

1061
01:03:27,640 --> 01:03:28,040
Speaker 2: out of here.

1062
01:03:28,280 --> 01:03:30,760
Speaker 1: This isn't This isn't speed dating for crickets. It's the

1063
01:03:30,840 --> 01:03:33,480
Speaker 1: laundry room with a pile of rath turns in it.

1064
01:03:34,080 --> 01:03:37,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's just two humans in a rat. You're not

1065
01:03:37,680 --> 01:03:39,120
Speaker 2: going to get anything out of this, right.

1066
01:03:39,400 --> 01:03:42,120
Speaker 1: That would be a great name for like a singles bar, though,

1067
01:03:42,160 --> 01:03:44,960
Speaker 1: two humans in a rat, Yeah.

1068
01:03:44,760 --> 01:03:47,880
Speaker 2: I mean that's that. Seems like every third person would

1069
01:03:47,920 --> 01:03:49,360
Speaker 2: get side eyed pretty hard in there.

1070
01:03:49,640 --> 01:03:51,520
Speaker 1: Yeah. But you know, if we could have like a

1071
01:03:51,600 --> 01:03:55,880
Speaker 1: ratituey for dating, right, like a Ratituey wingman, I guess

1072
01:03:55,880 --> 01:03:56,840
Speaker 1: that was in the movie.

1073
01:03:57,760 --> 01:04:01,280
Speaker 2: That would make my life so much easier. Oh my god.

1074
01:04:01,320 --> 01:04:03,360
Speaker 2: If I could have a ratitudey for dating, I think

1075
01:04:03,760 --> 01:04:05,680
Speaker 2: I think a lot of men have tried that, and

1076
01:04:05,840 --> 01:04:09,760
Speaker 2: those are called the rats are called pickup artists.

1077
01:04:09,640 --> 01:04:11,760
Speaker 1: Right exactly, We've already got I'm not going to.

1078
01:04:11,920 --> 01:04:14,960
Speaker 2: I'm not going to insult rats, no compe them to

1079
01:04:15,120 --> 01:04:17,520
Speaker 2: mystery like but I think.

1080
01:04:17,360 --> 01:04:20,240
Speaker 1: If you put a rat on your head, just a

1081
01:04:20,280 --> 01:04:23,040
Speaker 1: normal rat, not even a Pixar ratituy rat, just a

1082
01:04:23,080 --> 01:04:26,200
Speaker 1: normal rat, you would still be more attractive to women

1083
01:04:26,360 --> 01:04:28,120
Speaker 1: than if you listen to a pickup.

1084
01:04:27,880 --> 01:04:31,000
Speaker 2: Artist and that's your peacocking putting the rat on you,

1085
01:04:31,320 --> 01:04:32,560
Speaker 2: I'll be like, what's that rat on.

1086
01:04:32,560 --> 01:04:36,360
Speaker 1: Your You will be I can guarantee you. I can

1087
01:04:36,360 --> 01:04:38,640
Speaker 1: guarantee you this. You will be noticed if you put

1088
01:04:38,640 --> 01:04:44,200
Speaker 1: a rat on your head. So here is another sound

1089
01:04:44,240 --> 01:04:47,680
Speaker 1: for you to give. This is the hint for this

1090
01:04:47,720 --> 01:04:51,000
Speaker 1: one is uh. It gets its name from the sound

1091
01:04:51,040 --> 01:04:53,640
Speaker 1: it makes, not for sitting at the cool kids table

1092
01:04:53,640 --> 01:05:03,440
Speaker 1: in high school? All right, Jeff, you got any guesses?

1093
01:05:05,200 --> 01:05:07,720
Speaker 2: Was the sound I was listening for that little like knocking?

1094
01:05:07,920 --> 01:05:08,240
Speaker 1: Yes?

1095
01:05:09,200 --> 01:05:15,440
Speaker 2: Oh cracle, yeah circle?

1096
01:05:15,600 --> 01:05:16,440
Speaker 1: You got it?

1097
01:05:17,440 --> 01:05:22,560
Speaker 2: Did I guess that? I mean? Now? That was that

1098
01:05:22,560 --> 01:05:26,440
Speaker 2: that I couldn't even figure out, Like I was so

1099
01:05:26,600 --> 01:05:30,800
Speaker 2: focused on the uh, the hint that I was like,

1100
01:05:30,920 --> 01:05:35,080
Speaker 2: not from the cool kids table? Got nothing?

1101
01:05:37,960 --> 01:05:41,480
Speaker 1: All right? Is it c ercle or cucku Burrough? Well

1102
01:05:41,520 --> 01:05:44,800
Speaker 1: we'll find out next time on Creature feature. Jeff, thank

1103
01:05:44,800 --> 01:05:46,840
Speaker 1: you so much for joining Where can people find you?

1104
01:05:47,480 --> 01:05:49,800
Speaker 2: Thanks for having me? Well I am at hey there,

1105
01:05:49,880 --> 01:05:52,040
Speaker 2: Jeff row h y t h e r e j

1106
01:05:52,200 --> 01:05:54,960
Speaker 2: E f f r O on all social media, including

1107
01:05:54,960 --> 01:05:58,640
Speaker 2: my YouTube. My YouTube. Every Wednesday I opened up packs

1108
01:05:58,680 --> 01:06:01,200
Speaker 2: of trading cards on camera and Katie it is the most.

1109
01:06:00,960 --> 01:06:02,560
Speaker 1: Fun thing that it sounds very fun.

1110
01:06:03,160 --> 01:06:05,640
Speaker 2: It's so fun and people really like it, so I'm

1111
01:06:05,640 --> 01:06:07,880
Speaker 2: gonna keep doing it. But you can check that out.

1112
01:06:07,960 --> 01:06:11,280
Speaker 2: I do some would say too many podcasts, but not me.

1113
01:06:11,560 --> 01:06:13,360
Speaker 2: I have shows like Jeff Has Cool Friends, which you

1114
01:06:13,400 --> 01:06:15,680
Speaker 2: had mentioned earlier. I do a great show called Nerd

1115
01:06:15,720 --> 01:06:18,320
Speaker 2: with Drey Alvarez and U Fine with Kim Crawl. Those

1116
01:06:18,360 --> 01:06:20,880
Speaker 2: are all available at pictureon dot com slash Jeff may

1117
01:06:21,240 --> 01:06:23,480
Speaker 2: for early access to on some episodes with bonus content,

1118
01:06:23,840 --> 01:06:27,280
Speaker 2: or you can get them for free Otherwise. I do

1119
01:06:27,720 --> 01:06:30,600
Speaker 2: Tom and Jeff watch Fatman with Tom Raeman of Gamefully Unemployed,

1120
01:06:30,640 --> 01:06:32,640
Speaker 2: and I do a lot of shows with Adam Todd

1121
01:06:32,640 --> 01:06:35,040
Speaker 2: Brown on that you don't even like podcast Networks, which

1122
01:06:35,120 --> 01:06:37,080
Speaker 2: is you don't even like this show, you don't even

1123
01:06:37,120 --> 01:06:39,680
Speaker 2: like sports, and you don't even like sports live every

1124
01:06:39,720 --> 01:06:43,080
Speaker 2: Wednesday at four o'clock on his YouTube. I also do

1125
01:06:43,160 --> 01:06:45,880
Speaker 2: a live stand up show called Mint on Card the

1126
01:06:45,880 --> 01:06:48,240
Speaker 2: second Friday of every month at Blast from the Past

1127
01:06:48,240 --> 01:06:51,480
Speaker 2: on Magnolia and Burbank, California. It is a comedy show

1128
01:06:51,520 --> 01:06:56,000
Speaker 2: and a toy store for free. It's my favorite. I

1129
01:06:56,560 --> 01:06:58,360
Speaker 2: have a lot of really fun things that I do,

1130
01:06:58,640 --> 01:07:01,800
Speaker 2: and I love my little life that I get to do,

1131
01:07:01,880 --> 01:07:04,320
Speaker 2: and I get to work with lovely people like Katie Golden,

1132
01:07:04,960 --> 01:07:09,560
Speaker 2: brilliant and charming and making great, great shows. So I

1133
01:07:09,600 --> 01:07:10,640
Speaker 2: love that I get to do that.

1134
01:07:10,880 --> 01:07:13,640
Speaker 1: Well, thank you for that. That's very kind. And yeah,

1135
01:07:13,680 --> 01:07:16,479
Speaker 1: podcasts are kind of like rats, like once you've got one,

1136
01:07:17,280 --> 01:07:19,240
Speaker 1: probably got a whole bunch of other ones too.

1137
01:07:19,600 --> 01:07:22,040
Speaker 2: I'm invested with podcasts.

1138
01:07:22,840 --> 01:07:24,680
Speaker 1: Well, thank you guys so much for listening. And if

1139
01:07:24,720 --> 01:07:26,720
Speaker 1: you're enjoying the show and you leave a radio or review,

1140
01:07:27,280 --> 01:07:29,960
Speaker 1: that's greatly appreciated. I read every single one of them.

1141
01:07:30,000 --> 01:07:32,600
Speaker 1: And thanks to the Space Classics for their super awesome

1142
01:07:32,640 --> 01:07:35,960
Speaker 1: song ex So Lumina. Creature features a production of iHeartRadio

1143
01:07:36,000 --> 01:07:39,120
Speaker 1: for more podcasts like the one she us Hurd Is

1144
01:07:39,160 --> 01:07:41,400
Speaker 1: it a hurryo app Apple podcast? Or Hi guess what

1145
01:07:41,680 --> 01:07:43,720
Speaker 1: wherever you listening to your favorite shows. I'm not your

1146
01:07:43,720 --> 01:07:45,600
Speaker 1: mom can't tell you what you do. You got to

1147
01:07:45,640 --> 01:07:49,080
Speaker 1: live your own life, make your own decisions, your own mistakes.

1148
01:07:49,920 --> 01:07:52,880
Speaker 1: Can't let a ratituy do everything for you. You know,

1149
01:07:52,960 --> 01:07:54,920
Speaker 1: at a certain point you got to pick yourself up

1150
01:07:54,960 --> 01:07:58,560
Speaker 1: by your own pants and make your own decisions.

1151
01:07:58,640 --> 01:08:01,880
Speaker 2: Learn, learn to cook those reviews. I this is actually

1152
01:08:01,960 --> 01:08:04,240
Speaker 2: something that I will say, and this is something that

1153
01:08:04,280 --> 01:08:06,800
Speaker 2: I think our mutual friend Logan Trent had started doing

1154
01:08:07,200 --> 01:08:10,720
Speaker 2: when he'd got when he guests on podcasts. Folks, please

1155
01:08:10,800 --> 01:08:14,080
Speaker 2: go rate and review this podcast, leave a comment. All

1156
01:08:14,120 --> 01:08:17,160
Speaker 2: of those free things. These things are free for you

1157
01:08:17,240 --> 01:08:20,879
Speaker 2: to do, to leave a review, to give a rate, comments,

1158
01:08:20,960 --> 01:08:26,120
Speaker 2: to subscribe to notifications, bell thing the free stuck helps

1159
01:08:26,160 --> 01:08:27,800
Speaker 2: get these people paid better.

1160
01:08:28,080 --> 01:08:30,639
Speaker 1: It puts food on my family and for my mini

1161
01:08:30,760 --> 01:08:32,840
Speaker 1: rats that I your many rat like.

1162
01:08:32,920 --> 01:08:35,280
Speaker 2: It's such a free thing you could do, Like, just

1163
01:08:35,360 --> 01:08:35,680
Speaker 2: do that.

1164
01:08:35,960 --> 01:08:38,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, I have hundreds, I have literally hundreds of mouths

1165
01:08:38,960 --> 01:08:40,800
Speaker 1: to feed all the rats that I am.

1166
01:08:40,960 --> 01:08:43,759
Speaker 2: So many rats and horny crickets.

1167
01:08:43,120 --> 01:08:46,559
Speaker 1: Horny crickets rats. My apartment is so full of life

1168
01:08:46,720 --> 01:08:51,439
Speaker 1: and fun and laughs, live, laugh, love, feed all the

1169
01:08:51,560 --> 01:08:57,240
Speaker 1: rats in my apartments live, laugh, louse perfect. See you

1170
01:08:57,320 --> 01:09:00,480
Speaker 1: next Wednesday.