Speaker 1: You and Me Both is a production of I Heart Radio.
Speaker 1: I'm Hillary Clinton and this is You and Me Both,
Speaker 1: and today I'm taking a look at how kids and
Speaker 1: the people who care for them are doing in this pandemic.
Speaker 1: I think we're going to be facing a lot of
Speaker 1: important questions coming out of this pandemic. Some of them
Speaker 1: are about how children have been able to withstand the isolation,
Speaker 1: the substituted zoom learning for actually being in a classroom.
Speaker 1: There's just so much we don't know, and I think
Speaker 1: we're going to be learning and trying to understand what
Speaker 1: the impact on kids has been. So later in the show,
Speaker 1: we'll be hearing from Emily Auster, who has applied her
Speaker 1: skills as an economist and therefore spends her time delving
Speaker 1: into data to the incredibly complicated issue of parenting. I'll
Speaker 1: also be sitting down with writer and comedian my Berbiglia,
Speaker 1: who's talked a lot about his fears and ambivalence about
Speaker 1: even becoming a dad. But first I'm talking to someone
Speaker 1: who has really been on the front lines of helping
Speaker 1: kids in this pandemic. Jamal Holmes, a sixth grade special
Speaker 1: education teacher in the Bronx. I am really delighted that
Speaker 1: I get to speak to an actual teacher. A lot
Speaker 1: of people have understood, maybe for the first time, or
Speaker 1: at least in a very personal way, how important teachers are.
Speaker 1: When your schools closed down and your kids are at
Speaker 1: home and you're figuring out ways of keeping them occupied
Speaker 1: trying to learn, all of a sudden, you go, wow,
Speaker 1: this is what a teacher does all day, every day.
Speaker 1: Jamal first came to our attention through an Instagram account
Speaker 1: that celebrates black educators, and in addition to what he
Speaker 1: does in the classroom or these days the Virtue a classroom,
Speaker 1: he works so hard to make sure that all of
Speaker 1: his students have everything they need at home so they
Speaker 1: can focus on learning when they sit in front of
Speaker 1: that screen. In the past year, he has delivered three
Speaker 1: hundred and sixty care packages and counting to his students
Speaker 1: with everything in them, from snacks to hand sanitizer. I
Speaker 1: was really delighted to speak with him. He is such
Speaker 1: a great example of a dedicated teacher. Hello, Jamal, how
Speaker 1: are you. I'm doing well, So great to meet and
Speaker 1: see you. It's so great to have you on our podcast.
Speaker 1: You know, it's been an exhausting year for all of us,
Speaker 1: but I think teachers in particular have really borne an
Speaker 1: extra set of burdens. So let's just start by checking in,
Speaker 1: how are you doing well? I'm doing well. So this
Speaker 1: week is spring break, so we kind of have some
Speaker 1: time just to kind of like pause, reflect and and
Speaker 1: take some time for health care. Around this time. Last year,
Speaker 1: our spring break was kind of taken away from us,
Speaker 1: and they felt that our students really needed us throughout
Speaker 1: that time. So it's good that now we can really,
Speaker 1: you know, enjoy some time with the family and just
Speaker 1: to kind of do things around the house and take
Speaker 1: care of ourselves essentially just the ordinary stuff of life.
Speaker 1: How are your students doing? How would you characterize what
Speaker 1: they've been through this past year? So it has been
Speaker 1: truly difficult for many of our students. But when I
Speaker 1: think about my students, perseverance is kind of really what
Speaker 1: defines them. You know, they show up. So a lot
Speaker 1: of them need an additional push, whether it's you know,
Speaker 1: frequent emails and phone calls and things like that. But
Speaker 1: when they truly know that they have people in their
Speaker 1: lives that genuinely care for them, they'll kind of go
Speaker 1: that extra amount. Well, for all of our listeners. Tell
Speaker 1: us about your students and a little bit about yourself
Speaker 1: to where do you teach, where do your students live
Speaker 1: and come from? So um, I teach in the South
Speaker 1: Bronx at East Bronx Academy for the Future, and that's
Speaker 1: a six to twelve middle school high school. And I
Speaker 1: love very opportunity that I get to talk about East
Speaker 1: Bronx Academy because I was a student there and I graduated,
Speaker 1: and I came back ten years later to teach. I'm
Speaker 1: a sixth grade special education teacher. A lot of the
Speaker 1: students that I work with have very similar experiences as myself,
Speaker 1: you know, growing up in a single parent household, living
Speaker 1: in the Bronx, and I wanted to become a teacher
Speaker 1: so that way I could be a positive male role model.
Speaker 1: And I truly believe that it is easier to build
Speaker 1: strong students than to repair broken men. Oh that's a great,
Speaker 1: great description. What's a profile of the kind of kids
Speaker 1: that you're currently teaching. My students are currently living in
Speaker 1: one of the poorest congressional districts in the country, but
Speaker 1: they're so motivated and eager to learn, and as far
Speaker 1: as like profile in the composition of my classroom. I
Speaker 1: work in an I C T classroom, which is an
Speaker 1: integrated co teaching classroom, and what that means is it's
Speaker 1: the six of the classroom is general education and special education.
Speaker 1: So on. Averages about twelve students who come in who
Speaker 1: have learning disabilities, and those disabilities ranged from anywhere from
Speaker 1: speech and language learning disability. I may have one or
Speaker 1: two that are labeled as emotional disturbed, and the vast
Speaker 1: majority come in multiple grade levels behind. Did you go
Speaker 1: virtually almost from the beginning and has that been the
Speaker 1: primary instructional approach that you've used since last year? Yes,
Speaker 1: I have been home the entire year. Every now and then,
Speaker 1: you know, I'm able to kind of get into the
Speaker 1: building when I know that a particular amount of students
Speaker 1: are there because I've been taking my students care packages
Speaker 1: and doing things beyond the classroom, so if I don't
Speaker 1: have to visit them, and can you know, capture ten
Speaker 1: students one day in the same building, it's easier to
Speaker 1: deliver it there. But as far as teaching, it has
Speaker 1: been remotely well. How have you dealt with the fact
Speaker 1: that I'm sure some of your students don't have access
Speaker 1: to the technology that they've needed to be virtual students.
Speaker 1: Do you have any idea how many of your students
Speaker 1: didn't have either a computer or internet access when you started.
Speaker 1: Particularly in my class, we at least had between twelve
Speaker 1: and fifteen students who didn't have devices, and that was
Speaker 1: a challenge in itself getting a device, and then one
Speaker 1: students had devices. Wi Flife was an issue, right, and
Speaker 1: we you know, had to work through that and eventually
Speaker 1: the school system was able to kind of provide hot
Speaker 1: spots and things like that. But even when our students
Speaker 1: got the devices, it was like the proficiency, So now
Speaker 1: I need to know how to navigate this device and
Speaker 1: do this work. And I think that they were many
Speaker 1: other challenges as far as executive functioning skills. Right as
Speaker 1: a student who was working from home, you know, you
Speaker 1: have to plan. It's the self monitoring, the self control,
Speaker 1: the working memory, the time management, and also like the organization. Right,
Speaker 1: so first period I'm in this class and after that
Speaker 1: class I have to go to this class. Also in
Speaker 1: addition to that, you know, the active home life. So
Speaker 1: some students are on with us and cameras are off
Speaker 1: or you know, when they mute themselves to engage in
Speaker 1: academic instruction. Sometimes it's very noisy, it's just so much
Speaker 1: happening and not having some sort of structure workspace where
Speaker 1: they can actually do their work. And then even at
Speaker 1: a very young age, My students are attending eleven years old,
Speaker 1: and students would say things like, you know, Mr Holmes,
Speaker 1: I can't be in class next period because my mom
Speaker 1: is leaving for work and I have to watch a
Speaker 1: younger sibling. So, you know, throughout the pandemic, we were
Speaker 1: able to really kind of dive in and see like
Speaker 1: a deeper view of what I would monies are really facing.
Speaker 1: We're taking a quick break. Stay with us. I'm so
Speaker 1: glad that you and other teachers working with you have
Speaker 1: you paid attention to all of these gaps in their
Speaker 1: learning and their access and their time everything you just described.
Speaker 1: Is there anything you discovered in teaching online that actually
Speaker 1: works better for some students? As a special education teacher
Speaker 1: at heart, the first thing is differentiated instruction. Working online,
Speaker 1: I'm able to really tailor certain lessons and this student
Speaker 1: needs to read allow this student is going to benefit
Speaker 1: reading this on this great level. In addition to that,
Speaker 1: when I think about the way in which we meet
Speaker 1: with parents parents teachers conference. Interesting, have they showed up
Speaker 1: more online than they did in person because you could
Speaker 1: schedule it around their need or they were at home more. Yes,
Speaker 1: So we were able to use platforms in which we
Speaker 1: were able to do time slots and it took, you know,
Speaker 1: some extra time and just reaching out to parents, are
Speaker 1: saying please sign up, but thinking about the opportunity to
Speaker 1: get parents involved more, and like, you don't have to
Speaker 1: come into the school building, you don't have to sacrifice
Speaker 1: leaving work early, You don't have to sacrifice deciding should
Speaker 1: you cook dinner or should you go to the evening
Speaker 1: parent Teachers conference. I also think about multiple means of engagement,
Speaker 1: so synchronous instruction versus the asynchronous instruction. Okay, explain that
Speaker 1: for our listeners. What you mean, sure when we talk
Speaker 1: about synchronous instruction is everyone is lives and we're working
Speaker 1: through this and we're doing this work together. But then
Speaker 1: the asynchronous instruction is when students, you know, get their
Speaker 1: work online and they can do it at their own pace.
Speaker 1: And I was able to use that time to kind
Speaker 1: of work with some students who are performing below great level.
Speaker 1: You mentioned that you've been providing care packages for students,
Speaker 1: and I think that you've been including in those care
Speaker 1: packages snacks and essentials and other kinds of activities. How
Speaker 1: did you start doing that? And can you walk me
Speaker 1: through how you connect with your kids? Yeah, so it
Speaker 1: has been next month would be a year since I've
Speaker 1: been doing care packages. Oh, that's so nice. It has
Speaker 1: been amazing to get out and to be of service
Speaker 1: to others. You know, this idea came about because when
Speaker 1: we're in the school building, I usually have all these things.
Speaker 1: Students coming hang around in my classroom during lunchtime, they
Speaker 1: come to after school programming and things like that. And
Speaker 1: you know, food is an essential food, drink, shelter, clothing,
Speaker 1: those necessary needs have to be met in order for
Speaker 1: us to kind of tap into the academics and everything
Speaker 1: else becomes secondary. So when we're thinking about the care packages,
Speaker 1: and you know, actually have a few. Um, so this
Speaker 1: is one. Oh that's big. That's like a big container
Speaker 1: filled with all kinds of goodies. I see, Well, you
Speaker 1: tell me what's in it. So, um, here like some
Speaker 1: hand wipes, we have, um, Colgate two brush and toothpaste. Um,
Speaker 1: we have some dove soap for our students. We have
Speaker 1: some protective gear, some masks and some hand sanitizing wipes.
Speaker 1: We have socks, we have washcloths, we have towels and deodorant.
Speaker 1: So it's tons of tons of things that we that
Speaker 1: I've been doing to support our students. And in addition
Speaker 1: to that, I have been doing what I call the
Speaker 1: green bag. Is this green bag bag? Yes? And and
Speaker 1: students were saying things like I couldn't come to school
Speaker 1: today because I didn't have clean clothes, and I said,
Speaker 1: there must be something I can do. So we have um,
Speaker 1: got clothes, washing detergent, um, you know, a whole setup
Speaker 1: of just things to support them. Well, I love that.
Speaker 1: Is there a teacher as you look back on your
Speaker 1: own experience at a kid, maybe at the academy yourself,
Speaker 1: that you still remember who inspired you to become the
Speaker 1: teacher you are today? Hands down, my seventh grade teacher,
Speaker 1: Christopher MDN. And he is currently a professor at Columbia University.
Speaker 1: And he is truly in a mentor inspired me day
Speaker 1: in and day out with his work constantly, you know,
Speaker 1: following his work on social media, touching base with him,
Speaker 1: and he's just truly has been that model for me. Well,
Speaker 1: I bet there are going to be a lot of
Speaker 1: young men and women in a few years who look
Speaker 1: back and say that you did the same for them. Jamal,
Speaker 1: do you have a specific conversation or experience that you've
Speaker 1: had this past year that really lets you know that
Speaker 1: the work you're doing is making a difference. Sure, So,
Speaker 1: I think weren't very recent particular experiences. Just last week
Speaker 1: I was out delivering care packages and that same even
Speaker 1: in uh student contact, you know, through text message, and
Speaker 1: said to me homes like, how did you know that
Speaker 1: I needed socks? And I was like, you know, I
Speaker 1: didn't know that you needed socks, but it was a
Speaker 1: part of the care package, and you know, he said, wow,
Speaker 1: like it's almost as if you were in my home
Speaker 1: because these are the items that I need it. And
Speaker 1: I said, you know, please reach out to me and
Speaker 1: let me know what else you need. I received a
Speaker 1: surplus of things at home, and this is why I'm
Speaker 1: doing this, to make sure that you all have the
Speaker 1: items that you need. So I think that kind of
Speaker 1: stuck with me because you just kind of never know
Speaker 1: and our students, and at least I know my students
Speaker 1: for example, not all of them are going to say, like,
Speaker 1: you know, I need this, but if you give them something,
Speaker 1: they'll find use of it. So it's also like this
Speaker 1: trust and it's like homes, I know you got me
Speaker 1: beyond the classroom. You know, this really reminds me of
Speaker 1: how important acts of kindness are because that's really what
Speaker 1: you're doing, and you're modeling Jamal that you never know
Speaker 1: what somebody needs and trying to provide help for them
Speaker 1: without embarrassing them because you're giving them something that they
Speaker 1: need but didn't even know to ask for. It comes
Speaker 1: out of your love and your kindness and your understanding
Speaker 1: of what your students are dealing with on a daily basis.
Speaker 1: Is there anything you want to add as we are
Speaker 1: hopefully coming out of this pandemic, but things that you
Speaker 1: hope that people don't forget going forward. So I think
Speaker 1: that throughout the pandemic, because many of our students started
Speaker 1: learning at home, more families started to become more engage
Speaker 1: and be a part of their child's education. And oftentimes
Speaker 1: you see where it's just like, Nope, that's the school.
Speaker 1: You guys are the professionals. You guys do this. But
Speaker 1: as we think about this pandemic. We really needed it
Speaker 1: to be all hands on deck. So I just want
Speaker 1: to just kind of thank all of our parents, all
Speaker 1: of our teachers for collaborating, and our school administrators and
Speaker 1: everyone for just coming together to do the best, and
Speaker 1: you know, putting out children first and making sure that
Speaker 1: they have the supports to kind of navigate through this
Speaker 1: difficult time. You know you've made your passion, your purpose,
Speaker 1: your love of teaching, Your conviction about the possibilities ahead
Speaker 1: for your your students and what you can contribute to
Speaker 1: make them everything they can be to live up to
Speaker 1: their own God given potential is so inspiring to me.
Speaker 1: And I really appreciate your taking the time to talk
Speaker 1: with me and say a lot of your students the
Speaker 1: next time you are online with them from me, thank you.
Speaker 1: I so well. If you'd like to support teachers like
Speaker 1: Jamal Holmes in providing students with the resources they need
Speaker 1: to learn and thrive, visit the donors Choose website. Jamal
Speaker 1: posts all of his projects there and you can pitch
Speaker 1: in at donors Choose dot org slash classroom slash Mr
Speaker 1: dash Jay Holmes. That's h O l M E S.
Speaker 1: My next guest is Emily Auster. Emily is an economics
Speaker 1: professor at Brown University, and she's also the best selling
Speaker 1: author of several parenting books, Expecting Better, Crib Sheet, and
Speaker 1: The Family Firm, which comes out this August. You know,
Speaker 1: a lot of what we historically have thought about how
Speaker 1: to raise kids, how to be a good parent, has
Speaker 1: been anecdotal. We pass it on from friend to friend,
Speaker 1: generation of generation. But Emily Auster has really dug into
Speaker 1: the data and evidence about what works. She has been
Speaker 1: a valuable voice during COVID helping parents make sense of
Speaker 1: conflicting and confusing information to make the best decisions for
Speaker 1: themselves and their kids. But I began my conversation with
Speaker 1: Emily with a question about her own childhood. You know,
Speaker 1: it's been fascinating to read about and follow your career,
Speaker 1: and before we dive into parenthood, i'd love to hear
Speaker 1: more about something you mentioned in an interview with The
Speaker 1: New Yorker in apparently you were less than two years
Speaker 1: old when you would talk to yourself a lot, and
Speaker 1: in fact, your parents had a developmental psychologist record and
Speaker 1: then publish a book analyzing your monologues. Now, do you
Speaker 1: have any memory of that or in retrospect, can you
Speaker 1: tell us what you were saying or you were thinking. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so I remember when the book came out because I
Speaker 1: was like nine or ten, but I of course do
Speaker 1: not remember the recording, and I have read it or
Speaker 1: I've tried to read it. Most of what I'm saying
Speaker 1: is quite boring. Um. And so you know, I've seen
Speaker 1: people write about like my Child's Poet. I'm just like
Speaker 1: listing stuff that happened. I'm just like, today we did this.
Speaker 1: Tomorrow we're gonna do this, We're gonna go to childboard,
Speaker 1: we're gonna buy diapers, we're gonna pick up Like that's
Speaker 1: my whole narrative. It's just stuff that's going to happen
Speaker 1: tomorrow and what happened today. You have two children yourself
Speaker 1: now right, You have a daughter named Penelope and Finn,
Speaker 1: a son, yes nine and five, And you know your
Speaker 1: books became really Phenomenon's Expecting Better Crib Sheet and The
Speaker 1: Family Firm, which is coming out in August. And you're
Speaker 1: so good at breaking down the research because there's so
Speaker 1: much information out there. There's so much stuff flooding into
Speaker 1: our heads about everything, and you know, parenting is our
Speaker 1: biggest and most important lifelong responsibility, and how do you
Speaker 1: make sense of it all? And how did you get
Speaker 1: interested in helping other parents to wade through the complexity. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so for me, that's really started with my own pregnancy.
Speaker 1: And so I got pregnant with Penelope, and you know,
Speaker 1: I was an economist, I was a professor. I was
Speaker 1: doing my professor things. But you know, like many of us,
Speaker 1: sort of when you get pregnant, it kind of it's
Speaker 1: not that it takes over, like you can't do other things,
Speaker 1: but it's very like particular first pregnance is very occupying,
Speaker 1: and there were a lot of questions that I had
Speaker 1: about what I could do and what I couldn't do,
Speaker 1: and what was the right set of choices to make.
Speaker 1: And I basically felt like I couldn't get the answers
Speaker 1: that I wanted, or that the books and even my
Speaker 1: doctors were not always kind of explaining to the extent
Speaker 1: that I wanted things explained. And I kind of found
Speaker 1: myself using a lot of what I was doing in
Speaker 1: my job, where I was looking into research and evaluating
Speaker 1: research and thinking about the quality of research and using
Speaker 1: that data to structure my questions. I found I was
Speaker 1: basically doing that in my pregnancy, and you know, having
Speaker 1: these interactions with my husband, who claims that he's the
Speaker 1: villain in the book, which is not how I see it, um,
Speaker 1: but you know, have in these interactions where I would
Speaker 1: say like, I think we should do this, here's the research,
Speaker 1: and then he would say like, oh, well what about
Speaker 1: this other you know, what about this piece of evidence?
Speaker 1: You know? And so I kind of started doing this,
Speaker 1: and then I was explaining to people and some those
Speaker 1: people be like, oh, I would want to know that,
Speaker 1: and then that's sort of ultimately led into the book,
Speaker 1: and then that's kind of led into this whole other
Speaker 1: life that I never sure this residency is some extap
Speaker 1: with you also, like a sort of version of this life.
Speaker 1: I did not think I would have, well, you know,
Speaker 1: the so called rules for pregnancy that people have been told,
Speaker 1: you know, no caffeine at all ever when you're pregnant,
Speaker 1: and natural births are best and and breastfeed for this
Speaker 1: many months and absolutely no alcohol. You really dove into that.
Speaker 1: I mean a lot of people didn't have the capacity
Speaker 1: in the background to be able to do what you did.
Speaker 1: And what did you find? So, I mean, I think
Speaker 1: that there are sort of little pieces of what I found,
Speaker 1: and then there are are big pieces. I think, you know,
Speaker 1: one kind of overarching theme and a lot of this
Speaker 1: stuff is many of these things that we're told as
Speaker 1: sort of prohibitions or you must do this, or you
Speaker 1: must not do this, the evidence is more nuanced, So
Speaker 1: you know, breastfeeding is a good example where the sort
Speaker 1: of very long term breastfeeding is gonna make your kids
Speaker 1: smarter and thinner and better and more like a superhero.
Speaker 1: You know, that's not really supported in the best data.
Speaker 1: And you know, in the books, I spend a lot
Speaker 1: of time trying to help people understand where correlation and
Speaker 1: causality are different, and how hard it is to learn
Speaker 1: from data that compare women who do different things because
Speaker 1: they tend to be different in other ways. And I think,
Speaker 1: you know, in the end, a lot of the conclusions
Speaker 1: and pregnancy are like it's okay to have a little
Speaker 1: bit of coffee, you know, depending on your risk tolerance,
Speaker 1: there may be a case for occasionally having a glass
Speaker 1: of wine also, and sort of going through some of
Speaker 1: those pieces of data, but I think the big picture
Speaker 1: message in all of the books is that you know,
Speaker 1: these are choices you need to think carefully about for yourself,
Speaker 1: and that in most cases there are some small risks
Speaker 1: and maybe some small benefits, and that you know, mental preferences,
Speaker 1: maternal preferences are actually going to play a pretty important
Speaker 1: role in making those choices. And there's a sort of
Speaker 1: like autonomy aspect of the message. I remember when I
Speaker 1: was pregnant, and then of course when Chelsea was born,
Speaker 1: and so my mother would say things like, I don't know,
Speaker 1: I was knocked out for your birth and your your brothers.
Speaker 1: I don't remember anything. So you guys turned out okay.
Speaker 1: And then of course when Chelsea had her first child,
Speaker 1: I'm in there saying, well, I don't know, I didn't
Speaker 1: do that. That's worked out okay for you. I didn't
Speaker 1: breastfeed for a year. I breastfed for four months, and
Speaker 1: seems like you're okay. So it is an important way
Speaker 1: of trying to relieve some of the anxiety to say, okay,
Speaker 1: there's a broad range of decisions that are going to
Speaker 1: be okay if you are, you know, making intentional, well
Speaker 1: informed choices. Yeah, And I think that you know, this
Speaker 1: sort of modern experience of parenting is this kind of
Speaker 1: like I want to do it right, and this is like,
Speaker 1: I'm going to achieve this in the best way possible.
Speaker 1: And I think that that has led us in some
Speaker 1: cases to really put a lot of pressure on ourselves
Speaker 1: but also on other people, like, well, you didn't do
Speaker 1: it the way I did it, and so your way
Speaker 1: must be wrong. And I think, you know, dialing that
Speaker 1: down and saying like, hey, there's the best way for you,
Speaker 1: in the best way for me, and they may not
Speaker 1: actually be the same, is a way into a little
Speaker 1: bit of maybe a little bit less judgment, you know,
Speaker 1: of other people, but also to some extentpt for of ourselves.
Speaker 1: So I have to ask you, have you followed your
Speaker 1: own advice with your two kids and are they different?
Speaker 1: Were that? Was it different parenting Penelope versus FIV? Yeah,
Speaker 1: so I think, like, you know, I wrote the first
Speaker 1: book when I was spreading with Penelope, and there's a
Speaker 1: long gap between the first two books and the sort
Speaker 1: of second one is really I sort of tell people
Speaker 1: I had to have the second kid to write the
Speaker 1: second book about parenting, because you know, with your first kid,
Speaker 1: every like if I wrote a book based on early
Speaker 1: parenting of the first kid, it would be like fifty
Speaker 1: pages long, and it would contain every neurosis you know.
Speaker 1: I I once like it's spent a lot of time
Speaker 1: trying to figure out if she should wear mittens, because
Speaker 1: like my mom told me that if they wear mittens,
Speaker 1: they won't use their hands. And I was like, what
Speaker 1: is that? You know? And that's the second kid, You're
Speaker 1: like a mittens who can like And so I think
Speaker 1: that my that with Finn, I just I had a
Speaker 1: much better sense of what to expect, and so it
Speaker 1: was much easier to focus in on the sets of
Speaker 1: decisions that were most important right One area that I
Speaker 1: certainly resonated with in your academic work is on a
Speaker 1: policy level, how the United States could get our infant
Speaker 1: mortality right down. That's a issue I've worked on for
Speaker 1: a really long time, and you point out some of
Speaker 1: the obvious things that should be done, which is, you know,
Speaker 1: to make sure we do everything we can to prevent
Speaker 1: preterm births, to make sure people women have access to
Speaker 1: healthcare from the very beginning, which is one of the
Speaker 1: reasons why I was a huge proponent of the Affordable
Speaker 1: Care Act and the expansion to Medicaid, because it's hard
Speaker 1: to get prenatal care if you can't afford to go
Speaker 1: to the doctor, and then looking at the traumas that
Speaker 1: happen in labor delivery and postnatal care and therefore mortality
Speaker 1: in poor communities, because it's just outrageous that in our country,
Speaker 1: African American women have an infant mortality and a maternal
Speaker 1: mortality rate that is so much higher, not just than
Speaker 1: white women in the United States, but in some parts
Speaker 1: of our country, like Texas, certain parts of Texas. It
Speaker 1: puts them in kind of third world categories. So I
Speaker 1: really appreciate the way you took that issue in particular
Speaker 1: and expanded your focus. Yeah, and I think, you know,
Speaker 1: there we write about that and think about it more broadly.
Speaker 1: I think that for me, a huge thing that comes
Speaker 1: out is the need to support women even once they're
Speaker 1: at home, and so that this piece is really missing,
Speaker 1: particularly in you know, among women of call and particularly
Speaker 1: in lower income communities in the US, that you know,
Speaker 1: we kind of maybe we support them well in the hospital,
Speaker 1: but then they're sort of sent home in the social
Speaker 1: support kind of crumbles in a way that that it
Speaker 1: simply does not in many European countries. And I think,
Speaker 1: you know, what we were trying to push a little
Speaker 1: bit there is is to really make sure that we
Speaker 1: think about the policy solutions. How can we make sure
Speaker 1: that people are supported three weeks, in four weeks in
Speaker 1: when you know right now there's no paid family leave.
Speaker 1: I know this is something we are likely aligned on
Speaker 1: that having you know better, you know better paid family
Speaker 1: leave in a national sense is really important. It's important
Speaker 1: for moms, important for baby, is important for our families.
Speaker 1: We know what works. We just have refused, willfully refused
Speaker 1: over many years, even with the convincing evidence about how
Speaker 1: these investments early pay off in terms of health and
Speaker 1: social consequences that can be avoided or at least blunted.
Speaker 1: And that brings me to COVID because here we are
Speaker 1: amidst of a pandemic, and I think that the effects
Speaker 1: of both loss of learning and then social isolation and
Speaker 1: some of the mental health issues that are beginning to
Speaker 1: be observed and reported, you know, really raise some big
Speaker 1: red flags. So what do you think are good ways
Speaker 1: for kids to stay engaged uh and connected and hopeful
Speaker 1: about their futures? And do you have any advice about
Speaker 1: how to make you know, virtual learning more engaging for
Speaker 1: kids who find it isolating. The second piece is very
Speaker 1: hard because I think for a lot of kids are
Speaker 1: not even logging on, so it's like sort of put
Speaker 1: aside making it better, like you got to get them
Speaker 1: on the computer. Um. So, you know, I do think
Speaker 1: that there's a space for trying to improve our our
Speaker 1: ability to kind of find the kids for whom this
Speaker 1: is really not working and try to scaffold a little bit,
Speaker 1: whether that's smaller group meetings in schools, which some districts
Speaker 1: have done. Um, basically try to get some kids out
Speaker 1: of the house, even though that's really hard. What some
Speaker 1: schools have done, even if they're not open in person,
Speaker 1: is said, you know, we're going to organize some outdoor,
Speaker 1: socially distanced meetups so kids can see other kids. Because
Speaker 1: I think, you know, if you have little kids, you
Speaker 1: kind of realize, like at three o'clock, even if you
Speaker 1: have the best you know, synchronous and my kids go
Speaker 1: to a great school and occasionally there are distance learning days,
Speaker 1: and you know, even with the school trying really hard
Speaker 1: and being on the you know, having them on synchronous
Speaker 1: zoom all day, they need to go outside and see
Speaker 1: other people. At the end of the day, and I
Speaker 1: think we could do more to try to help facilitate that.
Speaker 1: There are ways to do that safely. You know, kids
Speaker 1: outdoor to playground in a mask, that's a really low
Speaker 1: risk environment. Um and I think, you know, schools and
Speaker 1: districts and parents to some extent could be working to
Speaker 1: try and make that possible. I love the idea of
Speaker 1: trying to get school districts and and maybe partner civic
Speaker 1: organization and not for profits to think about what could
Speaker 1: be done to get more kids outside and get them active. Finally,
Speaker 1: I wanted to ask you about rethinking parenthood post COVID.
Speaker 1: You know, I think a lot of people are reevaluating
Speaker 1: so much in their lives right now, and what are
Speaker 1: the roles that schools should play in communities and how
Speaker 1: do we raise happy and healthy, productive kids. Do you
Speaker 1: have any thoughts about what you'd like to see in
Speaker 1: terms of changes once we finally come out of this
Speaker 1: pandemic that would better support parents, educators, and kids. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I mean, I think in some ways this experience of
Speaker 1: virtual school has really highlighted how important school is and
Speaker 1: the sort of pieces that school is is important for.
Speaker 1: And I think that we have at least in some
Speaker 1: ways sort of push so much in the direction of
Speaker 1: school being about test scores and achieving things in testing
Speaker 1: and how much math do we do and what are
Speaker 1: we do earlier? And are you reading at the end
Speaker 1: of kindergarten and in kindergarten and younger kids especially like
Speaker 1: the kind of academic push in that space, and I
Speaker 1: wonder whether there will be a little bit of a
Speaker 1: pull back to say, you know, one of the things
Speaker 1: we've realized is that like a lot of the things
Speaker 1: that are really important about school are the sort of
Speaker 1: like emotional development of kids, and they need to learn
Speaker 1: how to interact with other people, and that that's actually
Speaker 1: really important for being a productive member of society. So
Speaker 1: I kind of do wonder whether we'll see more of
Speaker 1: a push in schools almost teaching that stuff, sort of
Speaker 1: trying to push that as a piece of a curriculum
Speaker 1: that is kind of on par with, you know, math.
Speaker 1: I really agree with you, because I think a lot
Speaker 1: of the different styles of learning and teaching have been
Speaker 1: compressed into a very narrow band about what teaching and
Speaker 1: academic success should look like. But Emily Austir, I cannot
Speaker 1: thank you enough for talking with me today. I literally
Speaker 1: could talk to you all day. This was amazing. Thank
Speaker 1: you so much, Secretary for insights on parenting and pandemic safety.
Speaker 1: You can subscribe to Emily's newsletter. It's called parent Data.
Speaker 1: Just go to her website Emily Aster. That's O. S T.
Speaker 1: E r dot net to subscribe. The first thing you
Speaker 1: should know about Mike Barbiglia, which will become abundantly clear shortly,
Speaker 1: is that he is very funny. The second thing to
Speaker 1: know about Mike is that he is unflinching, lee honest.
Speaker 1: Both of these traits are on full display in his
Speaker 1: most recent book, The New One, which chronicles his bumpy
Speaker 1: journey from knowing he should never have kids to becoming
Speaker 1: a devoted dad. Mike is a comedian, actor, writer, and
Speaker 1: director known for his hilarious one man shows on and
Speaker 1: off Broadway. That's actually how The New One originated on stage.
Speaker 1: He and his wife Jen have one daughter, Una, and
Speaker 1: when Mike and I spoke, Una was five and three
Speaker 1: quarters years old, but who's counting. I am so happy
Speaker 1: to welcome you to this show. Mike. You've spent a
Speaker 1: lot of time on stage and in your books talking
Speaker 1: about parenting, especially in the New One, which was published
Speaker 1: last year. I thought it was painfully and disarmingly honest
Speaker 1: because you talk about not only becoming a father, which
Speaker 1: was quite a journey for you, but feeling like a father,
Speaker 1: sort of growing into the role. And here you are
Speaker 1: the father of a five and three quarter year old daughter.
Speaker 1: Thanks for being specific. The book is very By the way,
Speaker 1: that's my cat, Massie, who really enjoys just being in
Speaker 1: the mix. I attempted to not include Massie, but Massi
Speaker 1: is uh she she follows politics, my kind of cat,
Speaker 1: absolutely so. Um, what I would say about the book,
Speaker 1: the book is a is called The New One, and
Speaker 1: it's a it's sort of a triple or quadruple on
Speaker 1: chandre of like the new baby in the new life
Speaker 1: and the new consciousness and all of these new feelings
Speaker 1: one might have when one has a child. And when
Speaker 1: I say one, I'm very specific because what I learned
Speaker 1: after doing comedy for twenty years and talking about murder
Speaker 1: and awful, you know, horrible things in my comedy, is
Speaker 1: that nothing is as controversial as parenting. You got it
Speaker 1: close to the bone. Oh my gosh. I had no
Speaker 1: idea because here I am writing this book about my
Speaker 1: experience of like not being sure about bringing a child
Speaker 1: into this world, and the earth is sinking into the ocean,
Speaker 1: and and people are terrible often, And then you get
Speaker 1: some people read the book and they go, well, this
Speaker 1: is not a guide for parenting, and I go, right,
Speaker 1: this is a this is a humorous memoir about my
Speaker 1: specific experience of going through this. And a majority of
Speaker 1: the time, you know I did. I did a version
Speaker 1: of this story on Broadway for a hundred performances in
Speaker 1: two eighteen and uh nineteen and released the book, and
Speaker 1: a majority of the response I get is positive in
Speaker 1: the sense that people feel a Catharsis from when you
Speaker 1: open up and tell them these things that you're uncomfortable
Speaker 1: even saying yourself we're putting down on the page or
Speaker 1: saying on stage. A majority of the time you find
Speaker 1: that people, I would say, actually tips towards more. Mothers
Speaker 1: approached me and say I didn't connect with my daughter
Speaker 1: or son until they were a year old, and I
Speaker 1: didn't know what was what I was gonna do. And
Speaker 1: you realize when you you open up and tell stories
Speaker 1: just how common that fear is. Right, you helped so
Speaker 1: many people. I think I feel that they weren't alone,
Speaker 1: that they didn't need to be feeling guilty or even
Speaker 1: ashamed of their own feelings. But you know the other
Speaker 1: thing I wanted to mention. You've written about it, You've
Speaker 1: talked about it. I mean, you were an anxious child.
Speaker 1: You you had cancer when you were younger, you had
Speaker 1: you know, sleep disorders, one which resulted in you're literally
Speaker 1: walking into a glass wall in a hotel and and
Speaker 1: and badly injuring yourself. I mean, you had a lot
Speaker 1: of reason to wonder. You were being very self reflective.
Speaker 1: I think, Mike, Yeah, I think the chapter where I
Speaker 1: referenced all of my maladies is called my Body as
Speaker 1: a Lemon Enough, that's really how I feel. I really
Speaker 1: feel that way sometimes. I've got rem sleep behavior disorder,
Speaker 1: I had cancer, i had Type two diabetes. I mean,
Speaker 1: I'm just like a walking pre existing condition. And I
Speaker 1: was like, I don't we don't need more of these,
Speaker 1: We don't need to more bring more of these in
Speaker 1: the world. This is this model, but indeed we do.
Speaker 1: That's what's so striking about the book is how it
Speaker 1: shows we need all kinds of folks. And and there's
Speaker 1: another brutally honest moment in the book when you get
Speaker 1: the flu and you were touring, and you know, you
Speaker 1: drag yourself home and literally you're just dying on the
Speaker 1: couch and your wife says you're not helping enough around
Speaker 1: the house. And then you think, and I this really
Speaker 1: caught me when I read it, I get why Dad's leave.
Speaker 1: And it wasn't an endorsement of dad's leaving. And it's
Speaker 1: not it's not a laugh line. It's not a laugh line.
Speaker 1: It was a painful, you know, revelation actually, because people
Speaker 1: are overwhelmed by the pressure of their own lives, especially
Speaker 1: you know, right now, and you're giving voice to that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know. I'll tell you an interesting like anecdote about
Speaker 1: mounting the show originally off Broadway and then bringing to Broadways.
Speaker 1: When it was off Broadway, there was a review that
Speaker 1: was really positive about the show and really negative about
Speaker 1: that moment where I think, I get why dads leave,
Speaker 1: and it clearly like triggered something in this person where
Speaker 1: they said, you know, I think they said something in
Speaker 1: the reviewed it to the effect of I don't get
Speaker 1: white dad's leave. I get why why women get divorced,
Speaker 1: you know, And I was like, oh, okay, Well, that's
Speaker 1: yours and this is that's your story. This is my story,
Speaker 1: and it's a thought. And as I make clear in
Speaker 1: the in the book and the show, I'm not leaving.
Speaker 1: I'm in. I'm all in. Uh. But what we did
Speaker 1: when we moved the show to Broadway is we we
Speaker 1: really meditated on what is it that is triggering these
Speaker 1: people to be upset about this line? And so I
Speaker 1: came up one day with this idea of saying, I
Speaker 1: have this thought, and I can't believe my own thought.
Speaker 1: I get why Dad's leave, And that way the audience
Speaker 1: knows going into the line that I don't approve of
Speaker 1: my own actions and behavior in that moment. And it
Speaker 1: was that priming that allowed I would say, like a
Speaker 1: majority of the audience to be on board for this
Speaker 1: really dark thought that a lot of people have, and
Speaker 1: a lot of people have come up and said to me,
Speaker 1: thanks for saying that. I've had people literally in tears
Speaker 1: at the stage. You're saying, this is the first time
Speaker 1: I understood like why my parents left, and and it's
Speaker 1: devastating to hear, but it's also you go like, well,
Speaker 1: it's worth what I'm doing, which is confessional comedy. It's
Speaker 1: worth it for that. We'll be right back. You know,
Speaker 1: my mother was basically abandoned by her parents, and honest
Speaker 1: to goodness, Mike, I think she thought about that every
Speaker 1: day of her life until she died at ninety two.
Speaker 1: So abandonment, it's about one of the worst things anybody
Speaker 1: can experience. But that doesn't mean a lot of people
Speaker 1: don't think about it. And actually thinking about it, in
Speaker 1: my view anyway, helps you say, wait a minute, I
Speaker 1: wouldn't want to leave. How could I not live with? You? Know,
Speaker 1: Jan and Una you're One of the other descriptions you
Speaker 1: use in the book is that you said you often
Speaker 1: felt like the family intern, the pudgy I think I
Speaker 1: think I said that, and the pudgy, milkless vice president
Speaker 1: of the family. You describe something that a lot of
Speaker 1: fathers feel, where you say, look, everything I can do,
Speaker 1: Jen can do better your wife Jen. And a lot
Speaker 1: of fathers feel that way. I mean, when confronted with
Speaker 1: this little, tiny, helpless infant. I think most fathers sort
Speaker 1: of stand there and stare like, Okay, you know, when
Speaker 1: can you be old enough to you know, ride a
Speaker 1: bike or throw a ball? Yeah, that's actually been one
Speaker 1: of the things in COVID I've been able to do
Speaker 1: with my daughter, which is if we go out and
Speaker 1: play soccer, and we go in nature walks, and we
Speaker 1: went snow tubing a few weeks ago. I mean, the
Speaker 1: joke of the book is that, you know, you hear
Speaker 1: all these cliches about children, it's the most joy I'll
Speaker 1: ever experience from other parents, you know, I call them zombies,
Speaker 1: you know, because they're just like, it's the most joy,
Speaker 1: it's the most joy. And you're like, all right, you know,
Speaker 1: let me let me figure this out myself. And then
Speaker 1: and then in the book, you know, spoiler alert at
Speaker 1: the end, you know, I say, you know, it's the
Speaker 1: most joy. I'm I'm seeing the world through baby's eyes,
Speaker 1: which which is a cliche that people also say that
Speaker 1: you'll see the world through baby's eyes, and you do,
Speaker 1: you know, and at a certain point if if you're lucky,
Speaker 1: but it's not. The key thing that I learned is
Speaker 1: you don't all do it at the same time. It
Speaker 1: is the hardest balancing aft, trying to get the balance right,
Speaker 1: your balance, your you know, the mom's balance, the balance
Speaker 1: between the two of you, and then all of a sudden,
Speaker 1: this little person who was pretty a neert for a while,
Speaker 1: starts having opinions, starts expressing them. Right, you know, what
Speaker 1: to eat and what to wear and what she wants
Speaker 1: to do. And so now the balance is is like tripartheid,
Speaker 1: it's the three of you. Well that was my Yeah,
Speaker 1: that was part of the thing. I grew up with
Speaker 1: an older brother and two older sisters, and my my
Speaker 1: oldest sisters eleven years older than me. And so when
Speaker 1: I was like when I was in his age, my
Speaker 1: sister Gina was like sixteen and like, and my other
Speaker 1: sister was probably thirteen, and like, I mean, I remember
Speaker 1: these fights that were like they were raw. I mean
Speaker 1: it was like world wrestling around our house. You couldn't
Speaker 1: even believe. I remember a fight where it's like where
Speaker 1: my mom was so mad. I never told us on
Speaker 1: stage or anything, but like, my mom was so mad
Speaker 1: that that that my sisters hadn't cleaned their shared room,
Speaker 1: that she took all of their clothes and through it.
Speaker 1: I'm not I'm not making this up. I'm not exaggerating.
Speaker 1: Through it in the sewer across the street, throw it
Speaker 1: in the sewer, and and and so I was this
Speaker 1: little assistant to my sister's Gina and Patty, and so
Speaker 1: they had me running interference and carrying the clothes from
Speaker 1: the sewer back into their room. I was the intern then.
Speaker 1: Also it was this thing where it was like, oh
Speaker 1: my gosh. I remember hearing my sisters say to my mom,
Speaker 1: I hate you, and I remember thinking, well, that that's
Speaker 1: a bad deal. You know, that's a that's a Ponzi scheme.
Speaker 1: You know. You put all your time and energy into
Speaker 1: this person or these people, these kids, and at certain point,
Speaker 1: no matter what you do, they're gonna say some variation
Speaker 1: on I hate you, I don't appreciate you. Yeah. Well,
Speaker 1: and that's a write of passage. Hopefully you get through,
Speaker 1: but it's painful when it happens to you. And now
Speaker 1: that you've got a few years of actual parenting under
Speaker 1: your belt, would you say you were worried about the
Speaker 1: right things. Uh. There's a moment in the book where
Speaker 1: where I asked my brother Joe for advice about having
Speaker 1: a child, and he says, it's relentless. And I think
Speaker 1: that that has proven to be very true. It doesn't stop.
Speaker 1: And so in that and parenting is so much more
Speaker 1: involved than I could have ever imagined. And also it's
Speaker 1: with your your body and your mind, but it's with
Speaker 1: your heart too, and so it's it's always sort of
Speaker 1: pulling out your heartstrings in this way that I had
Speaker 1: never experienced before. So in that sense, it's harder, um.
Speaker 1: But then conversely, it's more rewarding than you could imagine.
Speaker 1: You know. I have friends who say, like, how would
Speaker 1: you describe it now that you have a child who's five.
Speaker 1: I say, it's like, it's like your aperture opening at
Speaker 1: a certain point if if you're lucky, I mean not
Speaker 1: everybody is the same, but your aperture opening and you go,
Speaker 1: oh my goodness. I can see that, and I can
Speaker 1: see that, and I can feel that emotion. So that's
Speaker 1: been my experience. I only have one piece of advice.
Speaker 1: The book is all about whenever people think like, this
Speaker 1: is a bad guy for parenting, I'm like, yes, absolutely right,
Speaker 1: it's a terrible guys. I'm i'm, I'm, I'm telling you
Speaker 1: all the ways to do it wrong so that you
Speaker 1: can do it right. Um. But I think that if
Speaker 1: there is one lesson from the book, if you buy
Speaker 1: into the book, is about candor and about I believe
Speaker 1: that being honest with your children is one of the
Speaker 1: best things that you can give to them, because I
Speaker 1: think that being honest with people who you care about
Speaker 1: is our best chance at becoming closer to the people
Speaker 1: we love. Oh wow, that's a wonderful note to end on, Mike.
Speaker 1: That's so beautiful. You know, when you're on stage again,
Speaker 1: when we're all vaccinated and you can be in front
Speaker 1: of a live audience, if you say that, you're going
Speaker 1: to hear this. Oh, come up women in the audience,
Speaker 1: because that is so touching. This has been a real joy.
Speaker 1: Thank you, Mike. Mike's latest book is called The New One,
Speaker 1: and you can hear him on his podcast Mike le
Speaker 1: As working it out. Well, there's so much that I
Speaker 1: hope happens for our kids. Our parents, are caregivers, are
Speaker 1: educators coming out of this pandemic. I hope that we've
Speaker 1: learned some lessons about how we can support each other
Speaker 1: and what works for different kids and what works for us,
Speaker 1: the adults who are trying to make sense of it all.
Speaker 1: I'm really glad that there's going to be help coming
Speaker 1: from the federal government for families and for schools and
Speaker 1: for child care centers and for lots of places that
Speaker 1: families need in this difficult time. I'm hoping businesses get
Speaker 1: back up and going as fast as possible so parents
Speaker 1: get their jobs back, they get to know that they're
Speaker 1: going to be able to provide for their families. And
Speaker 1: I hope that we also keep supporting each other, not
Speaker 1: just online, as important as that is, but in person,
Speaker 1: finding ways to reach out and make sure that everybody
Speaker 1: is doing as well as we can under the circumstances.
Speaker 1: I for one, can't wait for summer when you know
Speaker 1: most of the adults in our country will be vaccinated
Speaker 1: and we can get outside with our kids and with
Speaker 1: each other and you know, try to remember what that
Speaker 1: was like. But until then, you know, take care of
Speaker 1: yourself and keep getting vaccinated and make sure everybody you
Speaker 1: know gets vaccinated. To you and me, both is brought
Speaker 1: to you by I Heart Radio. We're produced by Julie Subran,
Speaker 1: Kathleen Russo and Lauren Peterson, with help from Juma Aberdeen,
Speaker 1: nicki etur Oscar Flores, Lindsay Hoffman, Brianna Johnson, Nick Merrill,
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Speaker 1: and the original music is by Forrest Gray. If you
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