1 00:00:04,800 --> 00:00:07,600 Speaker 1: On this episode of Newts World. As many of you know, 2 00:00:08,119 --> 00:00:12,400 Speaker 1: I am a dinosaur enthusiast. I have loved studying dinosaurs, 3 00:00:12,440 --> 00:00:15,960 Speaker 1: reading about him, visiting museums since I was a young boy. 4 00:00:16,640 --> 00:00:19,400 Speaker 1: So I was struck this week when an article on 5 00:00:19,440 --> 00:00:22,959 Speaker 1: The New York Times entitled What's in a Name? The 6 00:00:23,000 --> 00:00:27,159 Speaker 1: Battle of Baby t Rex and Nano Taranus, profiling a 7 00:00:27,240 --> 00:00:31,200 Speaker 1: twenty million dollar dinosaur fossil for sale to David Aaron 8 00:00:31,640 --> 00:00:35,400 Speaker 1: Gallery in London. It seems there's a controversy about this 9 00:00:35,520 --> 00:00:41,159 Speaker 1: quote rare juvenile Trannosaurus rex skill. My guest today is 10 00:00:41,200 --> 00:00:44,519 Speaker 1: somebody you've heard before who's done several podcasts with those 11 00:00:44,520 --> 00:00:47,880 Speaker 1: who I think one of the most brilliant explainers of 12 00:00:47,920 --> 00:00:52,240 Speaker 1: paleontology alive today. He is quote one of the stars 13 00:00:52,280 --> 00:00:56,760 Speaker 1: of modern paleontology according to National Geography. He's worked on 14 00:00:56,840 --> 00:00:59,920 Speaker 1: dig sites and in labs all around the world. Was 15 00:01:00,120 --> 00:01:04,560 Speaker 1: also the paleontology advisor to the film Jurassic World Dominion. 16 00:01:05,080 --> 00:01:08,240 Speaker 1: So you can imagine how pleased I am to welcome 17 00:01:08,280 --> 00:01:12,480 Speaker 1: back my guest, doctor Stephen Prossatt, Chair of Paleontology and 18 00:01:12,520 --> 00:01:16,360 Speaker 1: Evolution in the School of Geosciences at the University of 19 00:01:16,520 --> 00:01:30,040 Speaker 1: Edinburgh in Scotland. Steve, welcome back and thank you for 20 00:01:30,160 --> 00:01:32,959 Speaker 1: joining me again on Newtsworld. The number of years back, 21 00:01:33,440 --> 00:01:37,760 Speaker 1: my wife Callista had gotten me a copy of a 22 00:01:37,920 --> 00:01:42,120 Speaker 1: Nanotyrannis skull from the Cleveland Museum, which sits proudly in 23 00:01:42,160 --> 00:01:45,640 Speaker 1: our library. So I have a big interest in nanotyrannusis. 24 00:01:46,080 --> 00:01:48,360 Speaker 1: I do not have a t rex, of course, but 25 00:01:48,560 --> 00:01:50,360 Speaker 1: I wouldn't mind having one if I could figure out 26 00:01:50,360 --> 00:01:50,960 Speaker 1: where I put it. 27 00:01:51,160 --> 00:01:53,440 Speaker 2: Well, mister Speaker, is always a pleasure because when we 28 00:01:53,480 --> 00:01:56,240 Speaker 2: get together and talk dinosaurs, it's a couple of guys 29 00:01:56,280 --> 00:01:59,600 Speaker 2: that love fossils, love science having chats about these things. 30 00:01:59,600 --> 00:02:01,560 Speaker 2: And you has been very kind to me for the 31 00:02:01,560 --> 00:02:04,240 Speaker 2: books I've written and to the field of paleontology in general. 32 00:02:04,320 --> 00:02:05,320 Speaker 2: You've been an enthusiast. 33 00:02:05,600 --> 00:02:07,600 Speaker 1: I have to ask you, have you ever been interviewed 34 00:02:07,600 --> 00:02:09,760 Speaker 1: before by somebody who had a Nana tyrannoskull? 35 00:02:09,960 --> 00:02:11,960 Speaker 2: Oh, you know, I've been asked a lot of interview 36 00:02:12,080 --> 00:02:14,800 Speaker 2: questions before. That's a question I've never been asked, so 37 00:02:14,840 --> 00:02:15,400 Speaker 2: I don't know. 38 00:02:15,680 --> 00:02:18,239 Speaker 1: Literally, when you walk in our house, to your right, 39 00:02:18,639 --> 00:02:21,880 Speaker 1: there's a Nana Turannos skull sitting there. It's beautiful. It's 40 00:02:21,880 --> 00:02:24,840 Speaker 1: a fabulous skull. It's a cast, of course, but we 41 00:02:24,919 --> 00:02:27,680 Speaker 1: got it from the Cleveland Museum of Science, which has 42 00:02:27,720 --> 00:02:31,639 Speaker 1: a terrific collection, particularly a fossil fish. 43 00:02:31,480 --> 00:02:35,840 Speaker 2: And that's the classic skull of this dinosaur. Maybe it's Nanotyrannus, 44 00:02:35,880 --> 00:02:39,920 Speaker 2: its own species. Maybe it's a juvenile, a teenage t rex. 45 00:02:39,919 --> 00:02:42,040 Speaker 2: There's a lot of debate about that, but that skull, 46 00:02:42,120 --> 00:02:45,080 Speaker 2: which was found many, many decades ago and went to 47 00:02:45,080 --> 00:02:47,440 Speaker 2: the Cleveland Museum, that's really the keystone of this whole debate. 48 00:02:47,480 --> 00:02:50,480 Speaker 2: And it's a beautiful, beautiful, beautiful fossil. So you're very lucky. 49 00:02:50,720 --> 00:02:53,760 Speaker 1: It's either the type fossil of a new species or 50 00:02:53,880 --> 00:02:55,640 Speaker 1: it's just a baby Terrannosaurs Rex. 51 00:02:56,520 --> 00:02:58,200 Speaker 2: Yes it is, and I think either of those is 52 00:02:58,280 --> 00:03:01,200 Speaker 2: very exciting. You know, Either it's a distinct species of 53 00:03:01,520 --> 00:03:05,200 Speaker 2: a smaller tyrannosaur. This animal would have been about the 54 00:03:05,240 --> 00:03:08,640 Speaker 2: size of an suv more or less, whereas t Rex 55 00:03:08,680 --> 00:03:10,960 Speaker 2: as an adult would have been the size of a bus. 56 00:03:11,320 --> 00:03:14,560 Speaker 2: So it's either its own species of smaller Tyrannus, or 57 00:03:15,120 --> 00:03:18,120 Speaker 2: it's a teenage t rex, which is pretty neat because 58 00:03:18,160 --> 00:03:21,320 Speaker 2: fossils of really all dinosaurs are very rare, and it's 59 00:03:21,360 --> 00:03:25,160 Speaker 2: hard to have fossils of babies and teenagers and adults. 60 00:03:25,160 --> 00:03:27,639 Speaker 2: So if we have a teenage t rex, that can 61 00:03:27,680 --> 00:03:30,200 Speaker 2: tell us a lot about how this great enormous king 62 00:03:30,240 --> 00:03:32,880 Speaker 2: of dinosaurs grew up. So I think either way, this 63 00:03:32,960 --> 00:03:35,880 Speaker 2: debate is resolved down the line. It's a very interesting 64 00:03:35,880 --> 00:03:36,840 Speaker 2: and important fossil. 65 00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:40,600 Speaker 1: So I'm curious because I'm guessing that to be called 66 00:03:40,640 --> 00:03:44,040 Speaker 1: a juvenile t rex has it listed at the David 67 00:03:44,040 --> 00:03:47,640 Speaker 1: Aaron Gowery, it must be substantially bigger than a nanoterremus. 68 00:03:48,040 --> 00:03:50,600 Speaker 2: It's really hard to know. So there is this new 69 00:03:50,680 --> 00:03:53,480 Speaker 2: specimen of this new fossil that's for sale. I don't 70 00:03:53,480 --> 00:03:56,040 Speaker 2: know a huge amount about it. I know not much 71 00:03:56,120 --> 00:03:58,800 Speaker 2: more than has been reported in the press, including in 72 00:03:58,840 --> 00:04:02,040 Speaker 2: this New York Times article. I haven't seen this fossil myself. 73 00:04:02,080 --> 00:04:04,960 Speaker 2: I haven't studied it. I've just seen some photos. They 74 00:04:04,960 --> 00:04:09,080 Speaker 2: are marketing it as a juvenile t rex. But other people, 75 00:04:09,320 --> 00:04:12,360 Speaker 2: other scientists, would look at that same fossil and say, 76 00:04:12,640 --> 00:04:16,040 Speaker 2: we actually think that's a nanotyrannus, a separate species. So 77 00:04:16,520 --> 00:04:19,560 Speaker 2: really it's the same thing as your Cleveland skull. The 78 00:04:19,640 --> 00:04:22,680 Speaker 2: cast of the skull that you have at home. Is 79 00:04:22,680 --> 00:04:25,119 Speaker 2: it a separate species, Is it a juvenile t rex? 80 00:04:25,120 --> 00:04:27,200 Speaker 2: We don't really know. We just know that it is 81 00:04:27,279 --> 00:04:30,400 Speaker 2: a tyrannosaur of some type that's about the size of 82 00:04:30,440 --> 00:04:33,360 Speaker 2: an suv. It lived at the end of the Cretaceous Period, 83 00:04:33,400 --> 00:04:36,720 Speaker 2: about sixty six million years ago, and I do think 84 00:04:36,839 --> 00:04:39,719 Speaker 2: until there are more fossils, scientists are going to be 85 00:04:39,720 --> 00:04:42,320 Speaker 2: debating this for a long time because these dinosaurs are 86 00:04:42,360 --> 00:04:42,880 Speaker 2: so rare. 87 00:04:43,200 --> 00:04:46,479 Speaker 1: I mean, even a nana Trannus as a predator would 88 00:04:46,480 --> 00:04:48,520 Speaker 1: have been very formidable if you'd walked into him in 89 00:04:48,520 --> 00:04:49,599 Speaker 1: the evening. Oh. 90 00:04:49,680 --> 00:04:53,240 Speaker 2: Absolutely, t Rex is the ultimate because this thing was 91 00:04:53,480 --> 00:04:56,200 Speaker 2: forty feet long, it weighed seven or eight tons, Its 92 00:04:56,240 --> 00:04:58,760 Speaker 2: head was the size of a bathtub. It could crush 93 00:04:59,000 --> 00:05:02,000 Speaker 2: us in its jaws. T Rex is the ultimate. So 94 00:05:02,080 --> 00:05:04,720 Speaker 2: if you compare any other dinosaur to t Rex, it's 95 00:05:04,800 --> 00:05:08,480 Speaker 2: gonna seem maybe a little bit more lame. But come on, 96 00:05:08,560 --> 00:05:12,080 Speaker 2: this Nanotyrannus or teenage t rex, whatever it is, was 97 00:05:12,680 --> 00:05:15,120 Speaker 2: a big animal in its own right. It surely would 98 00:05:15,120 --> 00:05:17,560 Speaker 2: have weighed about a ton. It could have run pretty fast, 99 00:05:17,560 --> 00:05:19,560 Speaker 2: it could have chased you down, and it had a 100 00:05:19,560 --> 00:05:21,719 Speaker 2: whole mouthful of sharp teeth, so you would not have 101 00:05:21,839 --> 00:05:24,080 Speaker 2: wanted to come anywhere near this animal. 102 00:05:24,279 --> 00:05:26,560 Speaker 1: Do you think in market value it would make a 103 00:05:26,600 --> 00:05:29,360 Speaker 1: difference in price if they concluded it was a nano 104 00:05:29,400 --> 00:05:32,400 Speaker 1: tyrannus or is it still so cool it'll probably get 105 00:05:32,520 --> 00:05:33,240 Speaker 1: the same price. 106 00:05:33,720 --> 00:05:36,600 Speaker 2: This is something that when the New York Times reporters 107 00:05:36,640 --> 00:05:38,680 Speaker 2: were writing this article and they talked to me about it, 108 00:05:38,680 --> 00:05:41,400 Speaker 2: if they asked me this question, and it's a good 109 00:05:41,480 --> 00:05:44,320 Speaker 2: question when you're marketing something. This is something they're trying 110 00:05:44,360 --> 00:05:46,840 Speaker 2: to sell for a lot of money. Of course, you're 111 00:05:46,839 --> 00:05:48,599 Speaker 2: going to try to market that in the way that 112 00:05:48,720 --> 00:05:52,200 Speaker 2: makes it most exciting for people and most exciting for 113 00:05:52,400 --> 00:05:55,760 Speaker 2: hopefully for museums that might want to purchase it. And 114 00:05:56,160 --> 00:05:58,479 Speaker 2: I don't know what sounds better to you. I'm not sure. Really, 115 00:05:58,520 --> 00:06:01,000 Speaker 2: do you think a nanotyrannus is better? Do you think 116 00:06:01,040 --> 00:06:02,960 Speaker 2: selling it as a babyt rex sound? But I don't 117 00:06:02,960 --> 00:06:06,320 Speaker 2: honestly know. I think both of those things are quite interesting. 118 00:06:06,560 --> 00:06:10,920 Speaker 2: And so you see auctions sometimes where these smaller tyrannosaurs 119 00:06:10,920 --> 00:06:13,640 Speaker 2: are up for sale and they call them nano tyrannus. 120 00:06:14,200 --> 00:06:16,880 Speaker 2: So you see both and I don't honestly know which 121 00:06:16,880 --> 00:06:20,320 Speaker 2: one would on its own fetch a higher price, said. 122 00:06:20,400 --> 00:06:23,440 Speaker 1: I was surprised to learn that in twenty twenty two, 123 00:06:23,880 --> 00:06:28,120 Speaker 1: a Dynoonicas, which is the inspiration for the Veloci raptors 124 00:06:28,520 --> 00:06:32,520 Speaker 1: in Jurassic Park, sold for twelve point four million dollars. 125 00:06:32,960 --> 00:06:37,000 Speaker 2: I'm really surprised these dinosaur auctions and sales. Yeah, they're 126 00:06:37,040 --> 00:06:40,200 Speaker 2: happening with more frequency these days. It does seem like 127 00:06:40,279 --> 00:06:43,400 Speaker 2: we're in a period of time where dinosaurs are in 128 00:06:43,839 --> 00:06:47,760 Speaker 2: with the world of private collectors and art collectors and 129 00:06:47,800 --> 00:06:50,360 Speaker 2: so on. There's just a trendy thing happening, and there's 130 00:06:50,400 --> 00:06:52,560 Speaker 2: a lot of auctions. You hear of new auctions all 131 00:06:52,600 --> 00:06:56,240 Speaker 2: the time or new sales, and it makes sense to me, right, 132 00:06:56,279 --> 00:06:59,200 Speaker 2: I mean, I love dinosaurs, and there's something fascinating and 133 00:06:59,320 --> 00:07:02,839 Speaker 2: enthralling about these animals, and so some of the price 134 00:07:02,920 --> 00:07:05,760 Speaker 2: tags are getting pretty high. Some of them do surprise 135 00:07:05,920 --> 00:07:08,760 Speaker 2: me when you're getting into the many millions of dollars, 136 00:07:08,760 --> 00:07:10,320 Speaker 2: But I think it just shows that there is this 137 00:07:10,480 --> 00:07:12,800 Speaker 2: enduring fascination with these animals, and there's a lot of 138 00:07:12,840 --> 00:07:14,760 Speaker 2: people around the world that would love to have their 139 00:07:14,800 --> 00:07:16,720 Speaker 2: own dinosaur, and I totally understand that. 140 00:07:17,280 --> 00:07:19,440 Speaker 1: Well. I noticed that there's a t reaction named Stan 141 00:07:20,240 --> 00:07:22,720 Speaker 1: who was sold at auction for thirty one point eight 142 00:07:22,760 --> 00:07:26,240 Speaker 1: million dollars in twenty twenty, and he was bought by 143 00:07:26,680 --> 00:07:29,320 Speaker 1: the Abu Dhabi Department of Culture and Tourism. I assume 144 00:07:29,680 --> 00:07:32,559 Speaker 1: going into a museum. I mean Abu Dhabi's really working 145 00:07:32,560 --> 00:07:35,880 Speaker 1: at this tourism business. They have a relationship, for example, 146 00:07:35,920 --> 00:07:38,920 Speaker 1: with the Lover and have a sort of Middle Eastern 147 00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:42,040 Speaker 1: louver building, which is pretty nice, But thirty one point 148 00:07:42,040 --> 00:07:45,680 Speaker 1: eight million for a single skeleton is pretty darn and pressive. 149 00:07:45,960 --> 00:07:48,880 Speaker 1: I suspect encourages people to go out in the field, 150 00:07:48,920 --> 00:07:52,440 Speaker 1: and particularly on private land and try to find these things. 151 00:07:53,640 --> 00:07:58,160 Speaker 2: That number when that fossil is sold, that thirty one 152 00:07:58,200 --> 00:08:00,880 Speaker 2: million number. That shocked me, and it shocked a lot 153 00:08:00,880 --> 00:08:04,880 Speaker 2: of paleontologists, and it got us worried, frankly, because if 154 00:08:04,880 --> 00:08:07,960 Speaker 2: a dinosaur goes for that much money, of course other 155 00:08:08,040 --> 00:08:09,880 Speaker 2: people are going to want to get in on the action, 156 00:08:10,040 --> 00:08:12,640 Speaker 2: and it means that there's now a really high price 157 00:08:13,320 --> 00:08:16,640 Speaker 2: a bounty if you will, the dinosaur bones out there. 158 00:08:16,680 --> 00:08:18,840 Speaker 2: So of course it encouraged a lot more people to 159 00:08:18,880 --> 00:08:22,880 Speaker 2: look for dinosaurs. That's a great thing. But also if 160 00:08:22,880 --> 00:08:25,840 Speaker 2: the price tags go ever higher, it makes it less 161 00:08:26,040 --> 00:08:30,040 Speaker 2: likely that museums can purchase these one of a kind dinosaurs, 162 00:08:30,120 --> 00:08:34,240 Speaker 2: more likely that they're only affordable to the ultra rich, 163 00:08:34,320 --> 00:08:36,640 Speaker 2: the really ultra rich, the kind of people that have 164 00:08:37,000 --> 00:08:39,600 Speaker 2: tens of millions sitting around. So I think it's a 165 00:08:39,640 --> 00:08:43,679 Speaker 2: double edged sword there. But thankfully that fossil stand that 166 00:08:43,760 --> 00:08:46,240 Speaker 2: t Rex is going into a museum, as you say, 167 00:08:46,320 --> 00:08:48,559 Speaker 2: in the Middle East, the museum still being built. I'm 168 00:08:48,640 --> 00:08:51,160 Speaker 2: very excited about that. I think it's a great thing. 169 00:08:51,240 --> 00:08:53,880 Speaker 2: First of all, that fossil will be conserved and it'll 170 00:08:53,880 --> 00:08:56,400 Speaker 2: be put on display, and it will also be put 171 00:08:56,440 --> 00:08:58,640 Speaker 2: on display in a part of the world where there 172 00:08:58,640 --> 00:09:01,040 Speaker 2: are not so many dinosaurs fossil. So I think this 173 00:09:01,120 --> 00:09:03,320 Speaker 2: will in a way be a great ambassador for both 174 00:09:03,320 --> 00:09:08,079 Speaker 2: paleontology and American paleontology. T Rex is an American dinosaur, 175 00:09:08,160 --> 00:09:11,280 Speaker 2: so I think it's wonderful that children and families throughout 176 00:09:11,320 --> 00:09:13,400 Speaker 2: the Middle East can go see this dinosaur in the 177 00:09:13,440 --> 00:09:15,200 Speaker 2: museum down the line we know. 178 00:09:15,320 --> 00:09:19,040 Speaker 1: I think prior to stan the most famous t Rex 179 00:09:19,080 --> 00:09:22,840 Speaker 1: purchase was by a public institution, the Field Museum of 180 00:09:23,000 --> 00:09:26,840 Speaker 1: Natural History in Chicago, which bought Sue for about eight 181 00:09:26,880 --> 00:09:30,200 Speaker 1: point three six million back in nineteen ninety seven, which 182 00:09:30,600 --> 00:09:33,720 Speaker 1: today be about thirteen point five million give an inflation. 183 00:09:34,080 --> 00:09:36,240 Speaker 1: But I mean, I've been out there. It's really a 184 00:09:36,360 --> 00:09:39,679 Speaker 1: very impressive exhibit. I mean, you can understand why some 185 00:09:39,760 --> 00:09:42,760 Speaker 1: of the donors who support the museum thought that they 186 00:09:42,760 --> 00:09:47,880 Speaker 1: would certainly be rewarded in popularity and in attendance by 187 00:09:47,920 --> 00:09:48,800 Speaker 1: having Sue there. 188 00:09:49,880 --> 00:09:53,560 Speaker 2: Sue is my favorite dinosaur of all time. I grew 189 00:09:53,640 --> 00:09:56,120 Speaker 2: up in northern Illinois, from a little town called Ottawa, 190 00:09:56,200 --> 00:09:58,960 Speaker 2: So hi, everybody out there from Ottawa who might be listening. 191 00:09:59,040 --> 00:10:02,760 Speaker 2: About seventy five mins miles southwest to Chicago, and Sue 192 00:10:02,800 --> 00:10:05,719 Speaker 2: was purchased by the Field Museum when I was a 193 00:10:05,760 --> 00:10:08,840 Speaker 2: young teenager, and I was incredibly excited. And then in 194 00:10:08,920 --> 00:10:11,840 Speaker 2: the year two thousand it was put on display and 195 00:10:11,880 --> 00:10:14,640 Speaker 2: I was sixteen years old, ben and I remember very well. 196 00:10:14,720 --> 00:10:17,000 Speaker 2: I tried to convince my parents to let me skip 197 00:10:17,000 --> 00:10:20,560 Speaker 2: school that day to go see the opening of the exhibit, 198 00:10:20,559 --> 00:10:22,920 Speaker 2: which was in the middle of the week. For some reason, 199 00:10:23,000 --> 00:10:24,880 Speaker 2: I think that was maybe just for journalists. I don't know, 200 00:10:24,920 --> 00:10:26,920 Speaker 2: but I really wanted to weasel my way in there 201 00:10:27,240 --> 00:10:28,839 Speaker 2: to see it. And they wouldn't let me do it. 202 00:10:28,880 --> 00:10:31,400 Speaker 2: And you know, Paul, props to my parents. They valued 203 00:10:31,559 --> 00:10:34,760 Speaker 2: education more than anything. But we did go and see 204 00:10:34,760 --> 00:10:37,640 Speaker 2: it very soon after, and I've seen Sue dozens of 205 00:10:37,679 --> 00:10:40,040 Speaker 2: times over the years. It is in many ways, I 206 00:10:40,080 --> 00:10:43,760 Speaker 2: feel my hometown dinosaur, and that fossil, probably more than 207 00:10:43,840 --> 00:10:48,800 Speaker 2: any single fossil, really inspired me as I was studying paleontology. 208 00:10:48,840 --> 00:10:52,440 Speaker 2: So I am thankful that that dinosaur, which when it 209 00:10:52,559 --> 00:10:56,200 Speaker 2: was sold in the late nineties, that price was exorbitant. 210 00:10:56,679 --> 00:10:59,360 Speaker 2: I am so thankful that a museum was able to 211 00:10:59,480 --> 00:11:03,120 Speaker 2: work with donors and sponsors to get the funding to 212 00:11:03,240 --> 00:11:06,280 Speaker 2: make sure that fossil was put on display, because there's 213 00:11:06,280 --> 00:11:11,600 Speaker 2: an alternative universe out there where an oligarch buys that 214 00:11:11,720 --> 00:11:14,640 Speaker 2: fossil and it disappears and it is never put on display, 215 00:11:14,640 --> 00:11:16,920 Speaker 2: and I never see it, and I'm never inspired, and 216 00:11:17,040 --> 00:11:19,960 Speaker 2: millions of others in Chicago that to visit the museum 217 00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:22,960 Speaker 2: are never inspired to. So my great hope is that 218 00:11:23,040 --> 00:11:26,040 Speaker 2: when these one of a kind dinosaurs are discovered, that 219 00:11:26,480 --> 00:11:29,200 Speaker 2: some way or another, they find their way to a museum. 220 00:11:29,640 --> 00:11:31,400 Speaker 1: Most of these do end up in some kind of 221 00:11:31,400 --> 00:11:34,000 Speaker 1: a museum environment, but I remember I think it was 222 00:11:34,080 --> 00:11:39,559 Speaker 1: the number three guy at Microsoft personally owned two t 223 00:11:39,800 --> 00:11:41,560 Speaker 1: Rexis in his home. 224 00:11:41,960 --> 00:11:44,880 Speaker 2: If you have the Microsoft money, that'll do it. But 225 00:11:45,040 --> 00:11:48,040 Speaker 2: you're referring to Nathan Miervold, who's very well known to 226 00:11:48,160 --> 00:11:50,760 Speaker 2: us in the field of paleontology. I mean, he's a polymath, 227 00:11:50,840 --> 00:11:55,080 Speaker 2: incredibly brilliant guy, and he has done research. He's done 228 00:11:55,280 --> 00:12:00,880 Speaker 2: primary research. He's published academic papers on dinosaur fossils in 229 00:12:01,559 --> 00:12:04,599 Speaker 2: peer reviewed journals, the same ones that I publish in 230 00:12:04,679 --> 00:12:07,720 Speaker 2: and other scientists too, So we greatly respect him in 231 00:12:07,760 --> 00:12:10,920 Speaker 2: the field. And I think as an aside, I'll just 232 00:12:10,960 --> 00:12:13,240 Speaker 2: say that's one of the neat things about paleontology is 233 00:12:13,280 --> 00:12:15,959 Speaker 2: as a science, it is fascinating to people. It attracts 234 00:12:16,040 --> 00:12:19,880 Speaker 2: a lot of different people that wouldn't necessarily be drawn 235 00:12:19,920 --> 00:12:22,000 Speaker 2: to a lot of other sciences. So I think that 236 00:12:22,200 --> 00:12:25,959 Speaker 2: is one of those things about dinosaurs that enduring mystery 237 00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:30,000 Speaker 2: and fascination that brings so many people together, and he's 238 00:12:30,040 --> 00:12:30,959 Speaker 2: a great example of that. 239 00:12:42,080 --> 00:12:44,960 Speaker 1: Hi, this is newt If you live in California or 240 00:12:45,000 --> 00:12:47,640 Speaker 1: you happen to be visiting, I'd like to invite you 241 00:12:47,679 --> 00:12:51,240 Speaker 1: to my two upcoming book events in January Challis and 242 00:12:51,320 --> 00:12:53,200 Speaker 1: I are both going to be at the Richard Nixon 243 00:12:53,240 --> 00:12:57,520 Speaker 1: Library and Museum in jor Belunda on January ninth at 244 00:12:57,520 --> 00:13:01,560 Speaker 1: seven pm. Check Its are available now at Nixon Foundation 245 00:13:01,760 --> 00:13:04,520 Speaker 1: dot org. And Chlis and I are both going to 246 00:13:04,520 --> 00:13:08,400 Speaker 1: be at the Ronald Reagan Presidential Foundation and Institute in 247 00:13:08,480 --> 00:13:12,400 Speaker 1: Simi Valley on January tenth at five pm. Tickets are 248 00:13:12,400 --> 00:13:16,680 Speaker 1: available now at Reaganfoundation dot org. I hope you'll join 249 00:13:16,760 --> 00:13:19,040 Speaker 1: us for a book signing and a talk and a 250 00:13:19,160 --> 00:13:21,800 Speaker 1: chance to get together and kick off the new year 251 00:13:22,080 --> 00:13:33,440 Speaker 1: at the Nixon Library and the Reagan Library. I have 252 00:13:33,480 --> 00:13:36,480 Speaker 1: to ask you just a little bit about not just 253 00:13:36,559 --> 00:13:41,760 Speaker 1: Toronto source, but this entire group of dinosaurs who reoccur. 254 00:13:41,840 --> 00:13:45,520 Speaker 1: I mean, there's sort of a parallel evolution over millions 255 00:13:45,559 --> 00:13:48,199 Speaker 1: of years, and if you go back, I guess what, 256 00:13:48,280 --> 00:13:50,959 Speaker 1: thirty forty million years you at Alisaurus. There are a 257 00:13:51,000 --> 00:13:54,280 Speaker 1: whole group of dinosaurs who end up very similar to 258 00:13:54,280 --> 00:13:58,600 Speaker 1: t Rex. It is really big rear legs, really big 259 00:13:58,720 --> 00:14:04,280 Speaker 1: powerful head, and really tiny arms. And I'm curious, from 260 00:14:04,320 --> 00:14:07,200 Speaker 1: your perspective, why do you think the tiny arm giant 261 00:14:07,280 --> 00:14:09,080 Speaker 1: predator keeps reemerging. 262 00:14:09,880 --> 00:14:12,800 Speaker 2: This is why I love talking to you, mister speaker, 263 00:14:12,800 --> 00:14:15,840 Speaker 2: about dinosaurs, because we can get in the weeds these 264 00:14:16,080 --> 00:14:18,680 Speaker 2: fascinating bits of science, and this is one of them. 265 00:14:18,920 --> 00:14:22,160 Speaker 2: T Rex is an incredible dinosaur, sublime dinosaur in so 266 00:14:22,200 --> 00:14:25,880 Speaker 2: many ways. But there were other meat eating dinosaurs over 267 00:14:25,960 --> 00:14:30,520 Speaker 2: time that also evolved to look something like t Rex, 268 00:14:30,520 --> 00:14:34,000 Speaker 2: to become around the size of a bus, to develop 269 00:14:34,080 --> 00:14:37,160 Speaker 2: really big heads with lots of sharp teeth, and to 270 00:14:37,240 --> 00:14:40,120 Speaker 2: make their arms smaller as they did so. And as 271 00:14:40,160 --> 00:14:43,120 Speaker 2: you say, the alosaurs are some of those dinosaurs. There's 272 00:14:43,120 --> 00:14:45,800 Speaker 2: a group called the carcarodontosaurs. I know that's a real 273 00:14:45,840 --> 00:14:49,480 Speaker 2: tongue twister, but one of the most famous ones is Jiganotosaurus, 274 00:14:49,480 --> 00:14:53,160 Speaker 2: which was the villain in the new Jurassic World film 275 00:14:53,320 --> 00:14:55,240 Speaker 2: from twenty twenty two, the one that I worked on. 276 00:14:55,800 --> 00:14:58,160 Speaker 2: And there's many other examples. So there seems to be 277 00:14:58,360 --> 00:15:02,440 Speaker 2: something about dinosaur where time and time again, over and 278 00:15:02,520 --> 00:15:06,920 Speaker 2: over again, these different groups of meat eaters all developed 279 00:15:06,920 --> 00:15:10,200 Speaker 2: about the same size and similar types of body. So 280 00:15:10,240 --> 00:15:14,040 Speaker 2: I think it means that there was something very successful 281 00:15:14,080 --> 00:15:18,000 Speaker 2: about that design about making a living, about hunting food, 282 00:15:18,680 --> 00:15:22,520 Speaker 2: about getting enough food, at being able to get enough 283 00:15:22,600 --> 00:15:26,000 Speaker 2: nutrition and cover enough area, and so on with that 284 00:15:26,120 --> 00:15:28,720 Speaker 2: type of body. And what it really is is the 285 00:15:28,800 --> 00:15:31,920 Speaker 2: head seems to get so big that it takes over 286 00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:35,640 Speaker 2: most of the functions of the arms and the smaller ancestors. 287 00:15:35,680 --> 00:15:40,239 Speaker 2: So in the smaller tyrannosaurs or smaller alosaurs, the ancestors 288 00:15:40,280 --> 00:15:42,360 Speaker 2: of the big ones, the arms were longer and they 289 00:15:42,360 --> 00:15:45,560 Speaker 2: had sharp claws, and they were probably used to grab 290 00:15:45,680 --> 00:15:48,720 Speaker 2: prey and to slash a prey. In the big ones, 291 00:15:49,080 --> 00:15:51,440 Speaker 2: time and time again, the arms get small, the heads 292 00:15:51,480 --> 00:15:54,800 Speaker 2: get big. The heads are probably doing almost everything. They're 293 00:15:54,800 --> 00:15:58,040 Speaker 2: grabbing the food, they're biting the food, they're killing the prey, 294 00:15:58,080 --> 00:16:01,960 Speaker 2: they're chopping up the prey, swallowing the prey. And that 295 00:16:02,120 --> 00:16:05,320 Speaker 2: seems to be the case. But that's very different than say, 296 00:16:05,360 --> 00:16:08,000 Speaker 2: how mammals have evolved. You know, different types of meat 297 00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:12,240 Speaker 2: eating mammals, saber toothed tigers, wolves and dogs and so on. 298 00:16:12,760 --> 00:16:15,080 Speaker 2: They don't do that. And I think that speaks to 299 00:16:15,160 --> 00:16:18,040 Speaker 2: just the differences of dinosaurs and mammals and the types 300 00:16:18,080 --> 00:16:20,720 Speaker 2: of biology they have in physiology and so on. And 301 00:16:20,720 --> 00:16:24,120 Speaker 2: there's so much more we could go into the book. 302 00:16:24,160 --> 00:16:26,040 Speaker 2: I did The Rise and Fall the Dinosaurs a few 303 00:16:26,080 --> 00:16:28,720 Speaker 2: years back. I have a few chapters on these big 304 00:16:28,800 --> 00:16:32,960 Speaker 2: theropod meat eating dinosaurs, because to me, they're so fascinating. 305 00:16:33,280 --> 00:16:35,960 Speaker 2: These are some of the most incredible animals I think 306 00:16:35,960 --> 00:16:38,200 Speaker 2: that have ever lived in the history of the earth. 307 00:16:38,360 --> 00:16:43,160 Speaker 2: Bus sized predators with heads that we could fit inside, 308 00:16:43,600 --> 00:16:45,520 Speaker 2: that crush the bones of their prey. 309 00:16:45,840 --> 00:16:49,800 Speaker 1: They're astonishing animals. And of course they required other dinosaurs 310 00:16:49,800 --> 00:16:52,200 Speaker 1: to have grown very big in order to be able 311 00:16:52,240 --> 00:16:54,920 Speaker 1: to pray off of them. You can imagine how much 312 00:16:55,160 --> 00:16:58,480 Speaker 1: these guys had to eat in order to sustain themselves, 313 00:16:58,600 --> 00:17:01,480 Speaker 1: especially if, as some people think, they may have been 314 00:17:01,520 --> 00:17:03,960 Speaker 1: warm blooded, in which case they would have been burning 315 00:17:04,040 --> 00:17:07,040 Speaker 1: up a lot more energy than say, a crocodile does. 316 00:17:07,680 --> 00:17:10,320 Speaker 1: And these were apparently obviously pretty good predators in terms 317 00:17:10,359 --> 00:17:12,800 Speaker 1: of running, would have been very formidable. I mean, if 318 00:17:12,800 --> 00:17:16,440 Speaker 1: they were appearing in Montana this week, you would definitely 319 00:17:16,560 --> 00:17:18,800 Speaker 1: weakened the tourist attraction of going out in the woods 320 00:17:18,840 --> 00:17:20,400 Speaker 1: by yourself. 321 00:17:21,240 --> 00:17:24,960 Speaker 2: You got it. I mean, these animals were feats of nature. 322 00:17:25,680 --> 00:17:29,840 Speaker 2: The thing that really impresses me about them is not 323 00:17:29,960 --> 00:17:34,199 Speaker 2: just their huge size. That's interesting enough, amazing enough, but 324 00:17:34,560 --> 00:17:36,760 Speaker 2: one of the things we now know is that these 325 00:17:37,119 --> 00:17:41,159 Speaker 2: dinosaurs they didn't just have brawn, they had brains as well. 326 00:17:41,200 --> 00:17:43,920 Speaker 2: We know they were quite smart. And the reason we 327 00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:47,520 Speaker 2: know that is because we use cat scanners to see 328 00:17:47,720 --> 00:17:51,520 Speaker 2: inside of the skulls of dinosaurs. So maybe many of 329 00:17:51,560 --> 00:17:53,439 Speaker 2: you listening, some of you at least have had a 330 00:17:53,440 --> 00:17:55,800 Speaker 2: cat scan and you've gone in the tube and the 331 00:17:55,920 --> 00:17:58,359 Speaker 2: X rays of the scanner, you know, allows the doctor 332 00:17:58,400 --> 00:18:00,800 Speaker 2: to see inside of you with that having cut you out, 333 00:18:01,200 --> 00:18:03,560 Speaker 2: And we can do the same with a t rex 334 00:18:03,560 --> 00:18:06,919 Speaker 2: skull of velociraptor's skull. And when we do that, we 335 00:18:06,960 --> 00:18:09,760 Speaker 2: can see the brain cavity, we can build a digital 336 00:18:09,800 --> 00:18:12,119 Speaker 2: model of the brain, We can measure the size of 337 00:18:12,160 --> 00:18:15,080 Speaker 2: the brain compare it to living animals, and that tells 338 00:18:15,160 --> 00:18:18,359 Speaker 2: us that many dinosaurs were a lot smarter than we 339 00:18:18,440 --> 00:18:20,760 Speaker 2: used to think. And t Rex was probably one of 340 00:18:20,800 --> 00:18:24,040 Speaker 2: the smartest dinosaurs of all. So it was a completely 341 00:18:24,080 --> 00:18:27,280 Speaker 2: formidable predator with brawn and with brains. 342 00:18:27,720 --> 00:18:29,720 Speaker 1: Well. I was at the Smithsonian one year and they 343 00:18:29,720 --> 00:18:33,840 Speaker 1: had borrowed the kind of cat scan that automobile companies used, 344 00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:37,399 Speaker 1: So they had this huge machine that they were putting 345 00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:40,480 Speaker 1: fossils in and it was fascinating to watch. But you know, 346 00:18:40,520 --> 00:18:42,080 Speaker 1: one of the points you make about the brain. You 347 00:18:42,119 --> 00:18:46,080 Speaker 1: can actually tell how an animal is adapted based on 348 00:18:46,080 --> 00:18:49,639 Speaker 1: this brain case. And my impression is that predators like 349 00:18:49,680 --> 00:18:52,439 Speaker 1: t rex had remarkably good vision. I mean, is that 350 00:18:52,560 --> 00:18:53,159 Speaker 1: your sense. 351 00:18:54,080 --> 00:18:58,080 Speaker 2: Yes, you're correct, You're absolutely correct. We can tell that 352 00:18:58,280 --> 00:19:00,959 Speaker 2: both from looking at the brain through the cat scans. 353 00:19:01,000 --> 00:19:03,159 Speaker 2: We can see the regions of the brain that control 354 00:19:03,240 --> 00:19:06,480 Speaker 2: the sense of vision, and those are fairly large. But 355 00:19:06,560 --> 00:19:08,840 Speaker 2: what really tells us they had good vision is they 356 00:19:08,840 --> 00:19:12,359 Speaker 2: had huge eye sockets, and in t Rex in particular, 357 00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:16,280 Speaker 2: the eyes faced partially forward, so they would have had 358 00:19:16,400 --> 00:19:21,760 Speaker 2: three D vision, stereoscopic vision, depth perception, just like we do, 359 00:19:21,880 --> 00:19:26,000 Speaker 2: and that's actually a pretty unusual thing among animals. So 360 00:19:26,040 --> 00:19:29,239 Speaker 2: it means they could have seen in three D. They 361 00:19:29,240 --> 00:19:31,960 Speaker 2: could have seen their prey, they could have seen their environment. 362 00:19:32,000 --> 00:19:35,359 Speaker 2: That was one of their key hunting tools surely. And 363 00:19:35,440 --> 00:19:38,240 Speaker 2: we can also tell from their brain and from their 364 00:19:38,280 --> 00:19:40,159 Speaker 2: ears that they had a really good sense of smell, 365 00:19:40,560 --> 00:19:43,919 Speaker 2: really good sense of hearing. So these were predators that 366 00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:48,560 Speaker 2: were well endowed with the whole toolkit of senses to 367 00:19:48,640 --> 00:19:50,400 Speaker 2: seek out their prey well. 368 00:19:50,200 --> 00:19:56,040 Speaker 1: And that ability to have exquisitely effective eyesight. Their descendants, 369 00:19:56,080 --> 00:19:59,560 Speaker 1: the eagles and the hawks have very similar patterns. 370 00:20:00,280 --> 00:20:03,680 Speaker 2: Yes, and that's a wonderful thing that although t Rex 371 00:20:03,720 --> 00:20:06,800 Speaker 2: is extinct and Triceratops and Brontosaurus and all of those 372 00:20:06,840 --> 00:20:10,320 Speaker 2: classic dinosaurs, they've been dead for a long time, but 373 00:20:10,480 --> 00:20:14,320 Speaker 2: the descendants of dinosaurs live on as birds, and we 374 00:20:14,359 --> 00:20:17,199 Speaker 2: can study birds. We do study birds. We love birds, 375 00:20:17,240 --> 00:20:19,720 Speaker 2: so many of us love going bird watching or have 376 00:20:19,840 --> 00:20:25,000 Speaker 2: birds as pets. And through watching birds appreciating birds, we 377 00:20:25,160 --> 00:20:28,840 Speaker 2: can get a sense for what some dinosaurs were like. 378 00:20:28,920 --> 00:20:33,720 Speaker 2: And birds are quite smart, birds have great senses. Birds 379 00:20:33,800 --> 00:20:38,639 Speaker 2: are active, energetic, dynamic, adaptable animals, and dinosaurs would have 380 00:20:38,640 --> 00:20:39,520 Speaker 2: been like that too. 381 00:20:40,040 --> 00:20:44,360 Speaker 1: You were describing how a t rex would have grabbed 382 00:20:44,359 --> 00:20:46,600 Speaker 1: its prey and would have torn pieces out of its prey, 383 00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:49,159 Speaker 1: and was doing this with these very tiny arms that 384 00:20:49,240 --> 00:20:52,160 Speaker 1: basically had no use. I was reminded that the one 385 00:20:52,240 --> 00:20:55,320 Speaker 1: place I can think of this parallel is watching a 386 00:20:55,400 --> 00:20:58,919 Speaker 1: killer whale. That if you watch them, they take on 387 00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:02,400 Speaker 1: a huge whale and they gradually devoured and it's all done, 388 00:21:02,400 --> 00:21:04,680 Speaker 1: of course, with their mouth. They have no limbs that 389 00:21:04,840 --> 00:21:07,720 Speaker 1: enable them to operate. Very similar, I think in a 390 00:21:07,760 --> 00:21:09,800 Speaker 1: way to how t Rex would have behaved. 391 00:21:10,320 --> 00:21:13,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's a very keen point and good observation. 392 00:21:13,600 --> 00:21:16,640 Speaker 2: And sometimes I've done this before, you know, I've called 393 00:21:16,640 --> 00:21:19,840 Speaker 2: t rex like a giant land shark, and kind of 394 00:21:19,880 --> 00:21:22,560 Speaker 2: in the same way that these you know, whether it's 395 00:21:22,560 --> 00:21:25,879 Speaker 2: big sharks, whether it's killer whales. When they're in the water, 396 00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:29,760 Speaker 2: they don't really have arms or legs anymore, not proper ones. 397 00:21:29,800 --> 00:21:33,240 Speaker 2: They have flippers to swim, and so they can't just 398 00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:36,639 Speaker 2: grab prey the way that say a dog or a 399 00:21:36,680 --> 00:21:40,280 Speaker 2: cat could, so they use their heads for everything. And 400 00:21:40,320 --> 00:21:42,080 Speaker 2: I think that's what t rex would have been like, 401 00:21:42,080 --> 00:21:45,919 Speaker 2: and it's a very unusual way of hunting. It's just 402 00:21:46,119 --> 00:21:49,479 Speaker 2: different than any of the big predatory animals today. The 403 00:21:49,520 --> 00:21:53,200 Speaker 2: biggest meat eater today on the land is a polar bear, 404 00:21:53,800 --> 00:21:55,840 Speaker 2: plenty ferocious. I mean, of course we don't want to 405 00:21:55,880 --> 00:21:59,080 Speaker 2: run into polar bears, but a polar bear could have 406 00:21:59,119 --> 00:22:03,159 Speaker 2: been swadded away by the jaws of a t rex. 407 00:22:03,240 --> 00:22:06,240 Speaker 2: So that just goes to show how much more extreme 408 00:22:06,240 --> 00:22:08,960 Speaker 2: a t rex was compared to anything that's on land today. 409 00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:13,119 Speaker 1: Do you think the evolutionary advantage of the tiny arms 410 00:22:13,280 --> 00:22:16,199 Speaker 1: was that, since they weren't necessary, they just saved the 411 00:22:16,320 --> 00:22:18,879 Speaker 1: energy of growing bigger arms. You know, some people have 412 00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:22,560 Speaker 1: argued that if they hunted in packs the smaller arms man, 413 00:22:22,680 --> 00:22:24,240 Speaker 1: you didn't bite your neighbors. Often. 414 00:22:25,280 --> 00:22:28,159 Speaker 2: There's a lot of ideas that have been proposed. We 415 00:22:28,240 --> 00:22:30,600 Speaker 2: have a project that I'm part of that one of 416 00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:34,560 Speaker 2: my former postdocs, a really brilliant young scientist named Greg Funston, 417 00:22:35,080 --> 00:22:37,600 Speaker 2: is leading and we're working this up into a paper 418 00:22:37,640 --> 00:22:40,159 Speaker 2: as we speak. Actually we're talking about this even today 419 00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:42,800 Speaker 2: over email or getting this ready, and we have some 420 00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:46,600 Speaker 2: ideas for what the arms of t rex were for 421 00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:48,680 Speaker 2: or what they were not for. I think the key 422 00:22:48,720 --> 00:22:51,200 Speaker 2: thing is the arms are really small. The arms of 423 00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:55,719 Speaker 2: a t rex are only the length of our arms, 424 00:22:56,320 --> 00:22:59,960 Speaker 2: but they're much more muscular. They had a huge muss. 425 00:23:00,280 --> 00:23:02,679 Speaker 2: We can tell that because muscles leave marks on the 426 00:23:02,680 --> 00:23:06,439 Speaker 2: bones where they attach. So t Rex was weird. It 427 00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:08,240 Speaker 2: had arms that would have been the length of a 428 00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:10,800 Speaker 2: human arm. So imagine a bus. These were the animals 429 00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:13,359 Speaker 2: the size of a bus. So imagine a city bus 430 00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:15,600 Speaker 2: with human arms sticking out of the front. How weird 431 00:23:15,640 --> 00:23:19,640 Speaker 2: is that? That's really really obscene? Almost but those arms 432 00:23:19,640 --> 00:23:22,960 Speaker 2: were so muscular that they were still doing something. If 433 00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:26,080 Speaker 2: they were doing nothing, evolution would have got rid of them, 434 00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:28,800 Speaker 2: just like the legs of a whale. For instance, the 435 00:23:28,840 --> 00:23:31,440 Speaker 2: ancestors of whales had legs, they moved into the water. 436 00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:33,439 Speaker 2: They didn't need an evolution got rid of them. So 437 00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:36,960 Speaker 2: the arms of t Rex were doing something. The muscles 438 00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:39,720 Speaker 2: that are really strong on those arms were the ones 439 00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:42,280 Speaker 2: that would have been used to grab onto things. So 440 00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:46,040 Speaker 2: we think maybe they were using their arms to brace 441 00:23:46,119 --> 00:23:48,919 Speaker 2: themselves when they were feeding or when they were mating. 442 00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:53,480 Speaker 1: When you go back to the forerunners of for example, 443 00:23:53,560 --> 00:23:56,040 Speaker 1: t Rex or Alosaurus, do they tend to have much 444 00:23:56,080 --> 00:23:56,800 Speaker 1: bigger arms. 445 00:23:57,320 --> 00:24:02,119 Speaker 2: They do, And that's what's really intriguing. The ancestors of 446 00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:05,119 Speaker 2: t Rex, the ancestors of Alisaurus, and the ancestors of 447 00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:08,520 Speaker 2: some of these other types of dinosaurs that independently became 448 00:24:08,600 --> 00:24:12,880 Speaker 2: big predators. In all cases, those ancestors were quite small, 449 00:24:13,359 --> 00:24:17,560 Speaker 2: and the very first tyrannosaurs, for instance, were only the 450 00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:22,720 Speaker 2: size of dogs, and some were the size of humans. 451 00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:26,080 Speaker 2: But that's it. And they were not only small. They 452 00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:29,720 Speaker 2: had long legs, they could run really fast, they had 453 00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:32,760 Speaker 2: smaller heads, they had more delicate, dainty teeth. They were 454 00:24:32,760 --> 00:24:35,719 Speaker 2: still meat eaters, but their teeth were quite thin, and 455 00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:38,719 Speaker 2: their arms were long, Their arms were much longer. Their 456 00:24:38,840 --> 00:24:41,920 Speaker 2: arms had big sharp claws at the end. So clearly 457 00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:43,919 Speaker 2: these dinosaurs which were not at the top of the 458 00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:46,199 Speaker 2: food chain, these smaller ones would have been living in 459 00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:49,160 Speaker 2: the shadows of other dinosaurs, but they were using their 460 00:24:49,320 --> 00:24:51,960 Speaker 2: arms to do more things. And then over time their 461 00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:56,800 Speaker 2: descendants got bigger, probably the arms became less useful and 462 00:24:56,840 --> 00:24:59,560 Speaker 2: the head took over most of those jobs at the 463 00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:03,000 Speaker 2: arms had, but the arms did not become useless. They 464 00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:04,880 Speaker 2: were still doing something. 465 00:25:24,119 --> 00:25:27,080 Speaker 1: You're always so interesting. What are you working on and 466 00:25:27,119 --> 00:25:28,080 Speaker 1: thinking about? Now? 467 00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:30,879 Speaker 2: The big thing now in the world of dinosaurs is 468 00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:34,399 Speaker 2: that we have a major anniversary coming up, and that's 469 00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:39,520 Speaker 2: a two hundredth anniversary of dinosaurs. The very first dinosaur 470 00:25:39,560 --> 00:25:44,440 Speaker 2: that ever got a name was Megalosaurus back in eighteen 471 00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:48,440 Speaker 2: twenty four February of eighteen twenty four to be precise, 472 00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:52,800 Speaker 2: in England, and it was the first time that scientists 473 00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:56,800 Speaker 2: had recognized that there were these giant reptiles that used 474 00:25:56,800 --> 00:26:00,320 Speaker 2: to live, whose bones were fossilized and could be and 475 00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:03,119 Speaker 2: a lot of these bones were found by workmen and quarries, 476 00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:07,240 Speaker 2: digging canals and so on. During the Industrial Revolution in England. 477 00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:10,439 Speaker 2: First of all, and then farther around the world. So 478 00:26:10,560 --> 00:26:12,879 Speaker 2: that anniversary is coming up. It's amazing for me to 479 00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:16,600 Speaker 2: think about everything that's happened over the past two hundred years. 480 00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:20,200 Speaker 2: You know, two hundred years ago humans had no real 481 00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:24,639 Speaker 2: concept that dinosaurs existed. Now dinosaurs are everywhere, you know, 482 00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:27,640 Speaker 2: we take them for granted. But we've learned so much 483 00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:30,199 Speaker 2: during that time. And for me, we're working on this 484 00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:32,760 Speaker 2: t rex project. That's one thing we're doing. We're doing 485 00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:35,080 Speaker 2: a lot of work in my lab, not just on 486 00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:38,200 Speaker 2: dinosaur evolution, but also on mammal evolution, how mammals took 487 00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:41,240 Speaker 2: over from the dinosaurs. But one of the things we're 488 00:26:41,280 --> 00:26:45,280 Speaker 2: turning our attention to is more about dinosaur intelligence and 489 00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:49,600 Speaker 2: dinosaur senses and dinosaur cognition. Can we actually look at 490 00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:53,879 Speaker 2: fossils and say more than just oh, this dinosaur had 491 00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:57,200 Speaker 2: a big brain. Can we actually get into the head 492 00:26:57,200 --> 00:26:59,879 Speaker 2: of a dinosaur. Can we make comparisons to modern day 493 00:26:59,880 --> 00:27:03,560 Speaker 2: animals that might tell us something about the types of 494 00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:07,000 Speaker 2: brains dinosaurs had. How many neurons they had, you know, 495 00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:09,959 Speaker 2: the little powerhouse cells of the brain, what kind of 496 00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:13,879 Speaker 2: behaviors they were capable of, would they have recognized their 497 00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:16,240 Speaker 2: self in a mirror. Could they have navigated a maze? 498 00:27:16,280 --> 00:27:20,160 Speaker 2: It sounds totally fanciful, But there's so much experimental work 499 00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:23,600 Speaker 2: on the modern animals that are close relatives of dinosaurs, 500 00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:27,200 Speaker 2: birds and crocodiles, and there's so much work now on 501 00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:30,160 Speaker 2: cat scans of dinosaurs skulls that maybe we can bring 502 00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:32,800 Speaker 2: these lines of evidence together. So I'm getting obsessed with 503 00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:35,240 Speaker 2: that and part of a team. It's a big international team. 504 00:27:35,359 --> 00:27:38,000 Speaker 2: My good colleague Larry Whitmer, a great dinosaur expert who 505 00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:39,920 Speaker 2: you may know you know Ohio, is a big part 506 00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:42,359 Speaker 2: of this. And then we have colleagues in Sweden, the 507 00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:45,399 Speaker 2: Czech Republic who are some of the world's experts on 508 00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:50,479 Speaker 2: animal cognition and animal brains, Masospuff and Problemiamic, and we're 509 00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:53,040 Speaker 2: all starting to work together, us and our students about this. 510 00:27:53,119 --> 00:27:55,680 Speaker 2: I have a new PhD student who is just starting, 511 00:27:55,680 --> 00:27:58,280 Speaker 2: another student who will start next year, Ada Manning, and 512 00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:00,600 Speaker 2: really mead here in Britain and going to be working 513 00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:03,199 Speaker 2: on dinosaur brains and dinosaur intelligence. I think that is 514 00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:06,080 Speaker 2: so fascinating and I can't wait to see what we find. 515 00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:08,040 Speaker 1: Will this lead to your third book? 516 00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:10,159 Speaker 2: Oh, the third book well, you know, I did the 517 00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:12,600 Speaker 2: dinosaur one a few years back, which again thank you 518 00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:15,680 Speaker 2: for the very kind reviewed for Fox News of the 519 00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:18,080 Speaker 2: Rise and Fall the Dinosaurs, and I followed up with 520 00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:20,000 Speaker 2: the one on mammals, the Rise and Rain of the Mammals. 521 00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:22,119 Speaker 2: That's the last time we spoke on the podcast was 522 00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:24,840 Speaker 2: all about mammals. And I do have a third in 523 00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:27,440 Speaker 2: the works and I'm just starting to write it. It'll 524 00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:29,639 Speaker 2: be with the same publishers, and it's going to be 525 00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:31,919 Speaker 2: about birds. So it's going to be about the origin 526 00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:35,040 Speaker 2: of birds and the history of birds, the one hundred 527 00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:38,280 Speaker 2: and fifty million years of evolution that led to today's birds. 528 00:28:39,080 --> 00:28:43,480 Speaker 2: Evolution that included routes of Earth history, penguins that were 529 00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:48,840 Speaker 2: eight feet tall, terror birds, elephant birds, birds with wingspans 530 00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:52,480 Speaker 2: almost the size of fighter jets, all the way down 531 00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:55,960 Speaker 2: to you know, tiny hummingbirds. All of this great, incredible 532 00:28:55,960 --> 00:28:59,320 Speaker 2: diversity of birds today, over ten thousand species of living 533 00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:01,880 Speaker 2: modern data dinosaurs. Really, that's just the tip of the 534 00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:04,720 Speaker 2: iceberg of what have been many more species of birds 535 00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:08,040 Speaker 2: that have lived over time. Sometimes birds have been the 536 00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:12,040 Speaker 2: top predators in their ecosystem. Other times birds have adapted 537 00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:15,560 Speaker 2: to do all kinds of remarkable things with their wings 538 00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:18,400 Speaker 2: and with their feathers, and I'm just starting to dive 539 00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:21,320 Speaker 2: into this. I'm starting to write it now this month, 540 00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:24,080 Speaker 2: the New Year is kind of my starting point here, 541 00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:25,840 Speaker 2: and this will take me about a year and a 542 00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:29,120 Speaker 2: half to write. It'll come out probably in twenty twenty six, 543 00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:31,920 Speaker 2: but keep your eyes tuned for that, and of course 544 00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:33,520 Speaker 2: I'd love to talk to you more about it when 545 00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:34,080 Speaker 2: it comes out. 546 00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:37,960 Speaker 1: That would be fascinating. It's interesting that when you look 547 00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:42,200 Speaker 1: in the Paleocene and the scene you could have imagined 548 00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:45,840 Speaker 1: an alternative with the birds actually won out because they 549 00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:50,840 Speaker 1: were certainly remarkable competitors, and the number of carnivorous birds 550 00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:53,320 Speaker 1: that were not somebody'd want to run into in a 551 00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:54,000 Speaker 1: dark alley. 552 00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:59,000 Speaker 2: No, and you're absolutely right. There were some ecosystems after 553 00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:01,880 Speaker 2: the asteroid killed it dinosaurs, you know, t rex was gone. 554 00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:05,000 Speaker 2: That job at the top of the food chain was open, 555 00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:09,480 Speaker 2: the top predator job. Mammals eventually filled those roles, sabertooth 556 00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:12,760 Speaker 2: tigers and dogs and cats and so on, but for 557 00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:15,720 Speaker 2: a period of time in some ecosystems it was birds, 558 00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:19,280 Speaker 2: birds that had survived the asteroid that got bigger and 559 00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:22,760 Speaker 2: became the top predator. So in a way, dinosaurs kind 560 00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:25,680 Speaker 2: of continued their rule at the top of the food 561 00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:29,200 Speaker 2: chain in some ecosystems for many millions of years until 562 00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:32,680 Speaker 2: mammals were able to catch up and finally take over. 563 00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:34,640 Speaker 2: And I know that's going to be a big theme 564 00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:36,440 Speaker 2: I'm going to explore in the book because whenever I 565 00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:40,480 Speaker 2: do public talks, whenever I talk to people, especially kids, 566 00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:42,520 Speaker 2: and I say, what birds do you want me to 567 00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:45,360 Speaker 2: really talk about in my book, And almost all the 568 00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:48,480 Speaker 2: time I hear somebody say the big giant predator ones 569 00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:51,479 Speaker 2: that lived after the dinosaurs died. So I look forward 570 00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:52,400 Speaker 2: to writing about those. 571 00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:55,200 Speaker 1: That's what makes it the most fun. I've always been 572 00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:58,720 Speaker 1: surprised when you talk about flight, for example, that I 573 00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:02,600 Speaker 1: think forty percent of all mammals or bats, yes, So 574 00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:06,680 Speaker 1: competition for using the era is much more complex than 575 00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:07,400 Speaker 1: people might. 576 00:31:07,280 --> 00:31:10,320 Speaker 2: Know it is. And I think we don't appreciate that 577 00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:12,840 Speaker 2: about bats just because most bats are nocturnal, we don't 578 00:31:12,840 --> 00:31:15,080 Speaker 2: really see them. I mean, they're small, they hide away, 579 00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:18,520 Speaker 2: they're mostly sleeping or inactive during the day, but there's 580 00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:21,800 Speaker 2: tons of them and they live almost all over the world. 581 00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:27,320 Speaker 2: And dinosaurs, though and pterodactyls as well the reptiles that 582 00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:30,600 Speaker 2: live during the time of dinosaurs. They evolved flight before bats, 583 00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:34,440 Speaker 2: so dinosaurs had their time continue today of course, as 584 00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:38,000 Speaker 2: birds bats are the newcomers on the scene. And really 585 00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:41,000 Speaker 2: today there's such a wealth of flying animals. We're in 586 00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:43,680 Speaker 2: an almost unprecedented time in Earth history where there's such 587 00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:45,600 Speaker 2: a great diversity of flying creatures. 588 00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:49,120 Speaker 1: Steve, I want to thank you for joining me helping 589 00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:52,440 Speaker 1: our listeners understand more about the dinosaurs and the auction 590 00:31:52,600 --> 00:31:57,160 Speaker 1: world and extraordinarily interesting issues that we're beginning to learn 591 00:31:57,160 --> 00:32:00,000 Speaker 1: how to deal with. I loved reading both of your books, 592 00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:02,360 Speaker 1: so of course your latest book, The Rise and Rain 593 00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:05,520 Speaker 1: of the Mammals, is actually a superb book. Then, because 594 00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:08,880 Speaker 1: a dinosaur person, how could I not love The Rise 595 00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:11,880 Speaker 1: and Follow the Dinosaurs? And I recommend both of them 596 00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:16,080 Speaker 1: to everybody. And I think that having a childlike interest 597 00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:19,160 Speaker 1: in the world that has been keeps you younger and 598 00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:22,320 Speaker 1: keeps your brain open. And I appreciate you for being 599 00:32:22,320 --> 00:32:25,200 Speaker 1: one of the great advocates of all of us understanding 600 00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:25,840 Speaker 1: what's going on. 601 00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:28,800 Speaker 2: Well, thank you. That means a lot, and I appreciate 602 00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:30,480 Speaker 2: you as well. You've done a lot for the field 603 00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:33,080 Speaker 2: of paleontology. You've done a lot to keep this field 604 00:32:33,120 --> 00:32:35,960 Speaker 2: in the public eye. Your interests, your enthusiasm, your work 605 00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:38,600 Speaker 2: with museums, and the things you do, like say when 606 00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:41,840 Speaker 2: you reviewed my book. These things all matter. So you know, 607 00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:45,360 Speaker 2: a big thanks for me for your help with this field. 608 00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:47,160 Speaker 2: And the last thing I'll just say is, you know, 609 00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:50,000 Speaker 2: any of you listening, if you're into dinosaurs as much 610 00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:53,200 Speaker 2: as the speaker and I are, and you're ever confronted 611 00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:56,440 Speaker 2: with this opportunity to purchase a dinosaur at an auction, 612 00:32:57,200 --> 00:32:59,680 Speaker 2: think about donating that to a museum. That's one of 613 00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:03,280 Speaker 2: the ways to carry on a legacy in paleontology, to 614 00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:08,400 Speaker 2: ensure that children that families for generations to come can 615 00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:12,000 Speaker 2: also become enthused about dinosaurs. 616 00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:17,640 Speaker 1: Thank you to my guest doctor Steve Brussette. You can 617 00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:20,440 Speaker 1: get a link to buy his latest book, The Rise 618 00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:22,920 Speaker 1: and Rain of the Mammals, a New History from the 619 00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:26,480 Speaker 1: Shadow of Dinosaurs to us on our show page at 620 00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:29,800 Speaker 1: neut world dot com. Newt World is produced by Gingerish 621 00:33:29,800 --> 00:33:34,600 Speaker 1: three sixty and iHeartMedia. Our executive producer is Guardnsie Sloan. 622 00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:39,040 Speaker 1: Our researcher is Rachel Peterson. The artwork for the show 623 00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:42,720 Speaker 1: was created by Steve Penley. Special thanks to the team 624 00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:46,200 Speaker 1: at Ginglishtree sixty. If you've been enjoying news World, I 625 00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:49,120 Speaker 1: hope you'll go to Apple Podcast and both rate us 626 00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:52,440 Speaker 1: with five stars and give us a review so others 627 00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:55,600 Speaker 1: can learn what it's all about. Right now, listeners of 628 00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:59,200 Speaker 1: Newt World concern up for my three free weekly columns 629 00:33:59,360 --> 00:34:03,840 Speaker 1: at gingerishtree sixty dot com slash newsletter. I'm Newt Gingrich. 630 00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:05,320 Speaker 1: This is nuts World.