Speaker 1: You are listening and waiting on reparations production of I
Speaker 1: Heart Radio. The idea of abolitions existed a long time
Speaker 1: since before the founding father has been the documents ever
Speaker 1: sence they brought us to this continent along line I
Speaker 1: think it's pondered white Black operation watching bond slide or
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Speaker 1: at the mission of abolition. It's been this for a minute,
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Speaker 1: with our allies and the ballot and power for people
Speaker 1: we find received free for our time. Hey dope, knife,
Speaker 1: I'm lingua franca. We are waiting on reparation. Hurry up.
Speaker 1: So how you been this week, bron Man, I've been
Speaker 1: busy as what my bad, Joe. They're still popping off
Speaker 1: Memorial Day fireworks outside the crib, like right outside the window,
Speaker 1: because what way to better honor the troops then induce
Speaker 1: PTSD reactions by firing explosives into the sky. I'm in
Speaker 1: the hood right now. So I'm hoping this all fireworks.
Speaker 1: But anyway, what are we what are we talking about today?
Speaker 1: So people was going down today. We're talking about the
Speaker 1: election of progressive prosecutor Larry Krasner. Um. He was up
Speaker 1: for re election two weeks ago and so, and it's
Speaker 1: kind of the de facto like figurehead of the progressive
Speaker 1: prosecutor movement and so, um he recently was featured in
Speaker 1: a documentary, a little docuseries by PPS. Is that how
Speaker 1: you heard of him? I was aware of his work
Speaker 1: like over the last couple of years, but um, I
Speaker 1: think he's he's gained increasing popularity and like his work
Speaker 1: has drawn increasing awareness through this documentary that recently came out.
Speaker 1: And then yeah, he just eased reelection UM two weeks ago.
Speaker 1: And so we're gonna talk a little bit about progressive prosecutors,
Speaker 1: what d A. Krasner has done up in Philly. Um,
Speaker 1: some of the dynamics of his reelection uh campaign and
Speaker 1: UH and then look at the impacts that das have
Speaker 1: had on some rappers that we know in love. We'll
Speaker 1: talk about the musical relationship that rappers have had with
Speaker 1: the d A's office and as well as go into
Speaker 1: some real life examples of the adversarial nature between rappers
Speaker 1: and prosecutors. So I know about the work that you
Speaker 1: did with the district attorney and Athens back in December,
Speaker 1: but what's your usual interaction with district attorneys. Well, we
Speaker 1: both you and I we got out and we canvassed
Speaker 1: for Debre Gonzalez, the progressive district attorney in A two
Speaker 1: thousand in December two thousand, twenty UM. And so, uh,
Speaker 1: we're gonna talk a little bit about like what a
Speaker 1: d A does as what what does it matter for
Speaker 1: criminal justice reform um? But uh, right now, as we
Speaker 1: work on the city budget, she is the d a's
Speaker 1: office has requested I think like hundred seventy four thousand
Speaker 1: dollars increase in the budget recommendations for all these new programs,
Speaker 1: all this new stuff, and it's inciting a lot of
Speaker 1: conversation among myself and my fellow leftist commissioners about you know,
Speaker 1: we've been in this moment of like realizing that public
Speaker 1: safety starts outside of the cars rool system. It starts
Speaker 1: before the police arrived, It starts before you get to
Speaker 1: the District Attorney's office, where they're slapping you with charges
Speaker 1: and whatnot. And so ultimately, and we'll as we'll sort
Speaker 1: of lay out in our definition of what a d
Speaker 1: A does in a moment. You know, these people are prosecutors.
Speaker 1: These people are tasked with like deciding if people go
Speaker 1: to jail and for how long, and you know, what
Speaker 1: their bail is and all this kind of stuff, and so, uh,
Speaker 1: like there's been some hesitance to invest additional resources into
Speaker 1: an office that ultimately it's progressive as it wants to be,
Speaker 1: it's still about putting people in jail, law enforce. Well. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know something that I noticed, um when looking up
Speaker 1: things with the music is like as you as people
Speaker 1: see within hip hop, a lot of the the regard
Speaker 1: that people that that the d A has had has
Speaker 1: almost been identical to that that the police have, like
Speaker 1: like identical, you know, I mean almost to the point
Speaker 1: where their reference in the same sentence usually you know, right,
Speaker 1: parole officers, district attorneys, police, they're all sort of like
Speaker 1: a part of the system. And as layman, as people
Speaker 1: you know, listeners who may not be involved in the
Speaker 1: criminal dostice system, if you don't have a criminal background
Speaker 1: or have family members or friends that do. You might
Speaker 1: may not like peg a d A or someone like
Speaker 1: that as like the villain and the story as clearly
Speaker 1: as as the police, where we see these images of
Speaker 1: police like brutal as people, etcetera becausin and and I
Speaker 1: I say it's a false equivalency to say, you know,
Speaker 1: a d A is just as bad as the cops,
Speaker 1: because the cops are the ones that give them all
Speaker 1: these cases that they didn't have to prosecute in the
Speaker 1: first place. Are they supposed like so they're like they're
Speaker 1: not supposed to have that's well, obviously they're not supposed
Speaker 1: to have that relationship. They have to work together, but
Speaker 1: they're supposed to be like separate things, right, separate entities
Speaker 1: like the d a's office and the police department, right Like,
Speaker 1: it's not supposed to be like law and order where
Speaker 1: they're kind of like one big unit together exactly. The
Speaker 1: police like bring somebody in on certain charges and then
Speaker 1: they decide whether to pursue those charges or dismiss them,
Speaker 1: you know, potential sentences, negotiating clean bargains, all that kind
Speaker 1: of stuff. And so d as have typically run on
Speaker 1: like tough on crime stands up like colluding with the police.
Speaker 1: Were like round them all up and let's lock them
Speaker 1: all up in your life and get them off the
Speaker 1: streets forever. And so both here and up in Philly
Speaker 1: there and across the country. Um, there's this movement of
Speaker 1: people who are coming in to try to reform the
Speaker 1: system from the inside by you know, it's not pursuing
Speaker 1: low level crimes, you know, or prosecuting them more lenient sentences,
Speaker 1: more rehabilitative or restorative justice techniques to actually help people
Speaker 1: get reintegrated into society after they have committed a crime. Um.
Speaker 1: But ultimately to me, and this has been my struggle
Speaker 1: recently with deciding whether or not to like better from
Speaker 1: the day's office is like that hundred seventy four thousand
Speaker 1: dollars could also go into programs that would prevent people
Speaker 1: from getting picked up by the cops in the first place,
Speaker 1: similar to like, similar to like the logic of defund
Speaker 1: like their cops arrived when the crime has already happened,
Speaker 1: but like if there had been a program in place
Speaker 1: to help support the person that committed the crime, they
Speaker 1: why do you need the cops for? Similarly, I feel
Speaker 1: similarly about about district attorneys. But um, there's it's it's
Speaker 1: a hard calculus, and we're gonna get into this more
Speaker 1: throughout the episode. But um, let's go ahead and hit
Speaker 1: the job and we'll see you all in a second. So,
Speaker 1: a district attorney is the chief prosecutor representing the US
Speaker 1: state and the local government area, typically a county. The
Speaker 1: prosecution is a legal party responsible for presenting the case
Speaker 1: against an individual suspective of breaking the law, initiating and
Speaker 1: directing further criminal investigations, guiding and recommending sentences for offenders,
Speaker 1: and are the only attorneys allowed to participate in the
Speaker 1: grand jury proceedings. The prosecutors decide what criminal charges to
Speaker 1: bring and when and where a person will answer those
Speaker 1: charges and carrying out their duties, Prosecutors have authority to
Speaker 1: investigate persons, grant immunity to witnesses, and accuse criminals, and
Speaker 1: plea bargain with defendants. So, for example, when we talk
Speaker 1: and think about like prosecutors decide what criminal charges to bring.
Speaker 1: A recent example here in Athens, there was a guy
Speaker 1: who got into a domestic dispute with his girlfriend, wouldn't
Speaker 1: leave her house or wouldn't let her leave the house
Speaker 1: or something like that. So the district attorney's office how
Speaker 1: to decide whether to charge him with kidnapping, which has
Speaker 1: a mandatory life sentence, or false imprisondent, which is like
Speaker 1: ten to fifteen years. So those are the kinds of
Speaker 1: decisions they're making about people that get picked up by
Speaker 1: the cops with regards to you know, the charges, and
Speaker 1: then it follows the impact on their sentencing whether the
Speaker 1: person who got in a fight with a girlfriend is
Speaker 1: going to jail for life or ten to fifteen years
Speaker 1: if convicted, you know, found guilty for the crime. Well,
Speaker 1: here's a question. This might not be something that you know,
Speaker 1: but is there like any sort of like a checker
Speaker 1: of the d A? Like is there anyone that checks
Speaker 1: why they present certain charges the cases? I mean, obviously
Speaker 1: you can't do everything in real time on the day
Speaker 1: that every case is filed. Was there any any sort
Speaker 1: of process that goes back and and looks after that
Speaker 1: sort of thing? I would say there's probably not a
Speaker 1: formal like role within the office or within the criminal
Speaker 1: justice system more broadly that is, like checking the d A.
Speaker 1: I mean, I guess it would just be something after
Speaker 1: the fact, like after scandal or something that you would
Speaker 1: check it sure and so what so what r d
Speaker 1: A has been doing? And I believe something that Larry
Speaker 1: Krasner has done extensively in his tenure in office is
Speaker 1: reviewing is case review, so looking back at the sentence
Speaker 1: thing that happened before they came in and determining, uh,
Speaker 1: you know, fairness, like is this is there any discrepancies
Speaker 1: based on race across like the data on who has
Speaker 1: been sentenced in for how long? Um? Was there any
Speaker 1: sort of misconduct in the way the trial was was undertaken,
Speaker 1: um and so and and and and a lot of times,
Speaker 1: I mean, we haven't had a case here yet, but
Speaker 1: often in other municipalities we find that people get exonerated.
Speaker 1: It turns out that like, actually this is sucked up
Speaker 1: that uh, they were sent to jail for this and
Speaker 1: for this long and they actually end up getting out.
Speaker 1: So district attorneys can check the work of previous of
Speaker 1: their predecessors. But in terms of an existing check on
Speaker 1: that office, I'm not really sure. I'm not really sure
Speaker 1: if there exists outside of like public accountability and then
Speaker 1: like public defenders, you know, who worked to defend the
Speaker 1: folks that are brought before the prosecution, um perhaps having
Speaker 1: some role in and like taking a look at how
Speaker 1: they're deciding criminal charges and sentencing and trying to weigh
Speaker 1: in against that if it's unfair. But yeah, across the country,
Speaker 1: there's been a lot of reform minded prosecutors setting a
Speaker 1: new precedent of winning elections on platforms committed to both
Speaker 1: public safety and reducing mass incarceration. Uh, Folks within this
Speaker 1: quote unquote progressive prosecutor movement have pursued a range of
Speaker 1: policies including using diversion and treatment programs as alternatives for
Speaker 1: your people convicted for drug related crimes, refew using to
Speaker 1: prosecute crisis brought by officers with a history of this
Speaker 1: honesty or unreliability, and then reducing prosecutions for lower level crimes.
Speaker 1: So this is like a wave that's been sweeping the
Speaker 1: country in recent years, with the probably probably the most
Speaker 1: prominent figure in this movement being Larry Krassner, who was
Speaker 1: elected to fill as Philadelphia's district turning into thousand seventeen.
Speaker 1: Prior to seeking the district attorney seat, he worked as
Speaker 1: a criminal defense lawyer in Philadelphia for about thirty years,
Speaker 1: specializing in civil rights, frequently representing protesters that's Black Lives Matter,
Speaker 1: Occupy Philadelphia protesters. He would do a pro bono so
Speaker 1: that earned him that anti establishment cred. When he was
Speaker 1: a candidate in seventeen, Mr Krassner announced his first run
Speaker 1: after Donald J. Trump's presidential inauguration, and his promised to
Speaker 1: stop prosecuting drug possession and prostitution and to hold police
Speaker 1: accountable for misconduct attracted a coalition of young progressives, labor unions,
Speaker 1: and moderate black voters behind him that boosted him to victory.
Speaker 1: It's I mean, and he had kind of had like
Speaker 1: the the cred, the track record to back it up.
Speaker 1: You know, when he was talking about holding place accountable,
Speaker 1: he had sued the police for civil rights violation seventy
Speaker 1: five times prior to his run for office. So he
Speaker 1: had the bona fides, I guess to bring out young progressive,
Speaker 1: bring out black folks, bring out people in the labor
Speaker 1: movement to support him because like he had previously walked
Speaker 1: the talk. Yeah, he showed them that he had the
Speaker 1: experience to like actually get the ship done. Yeah. And
Speaker 1: then Yeah, indeed, during his first term in office, he
Speaker 1: ended criminal charges against those caught with pot ended cash
Speaker 1: bail for minor misdemeanors and non violent felonies, pursued reduced
Speaker 1: supervision for parolees, and sought more lenient sentences for certain crimes,
Speaker 1: and even wouldn't given the opportunity to climbing to the
Speaker 1: death penalty in capital cases. Um and as a result
Speaker 1: of all these efforts to phil DA's offices lower the
Speaker 1: number of people in the city's jail by more than
Speaker 1: and cut the city's appropriate rules by a third. This
Speaker 1: workers are in Krasner the support of Philadelphia based and
Speaker 1: raised rapper Meek Mill, who talked about on the show before,
Speaker 1: and who's had a couple agressions with Krasner's office following
Speaker 1: Meek's own charges incarceration in probation. Throughout the early two
Speaker 1: thousands and two thousand tens, Meek co founded the Reform Alliance,
Speaker 1: a project dedicated to getting one million people off probation,
Speaker 1: and has since been very outspoken about probation reform, having
Speaker 1: experienced at firsthand the way the terms of probation hindered
Speaker 1: his own rehabilitation. In addition to tweets and support of
Speaker 1: Krasner's reelection, Meek could also deny the purported link between
Speaker 1: Krasner's policies and the spike and gun crime at Philadelphia.
Speaker 1: He said, Larry Krasner did not put three thousand ghost
Speaker 1: guns and phillies and is not to blame for the
Speaker 1: rising murder rate. We don't do three D printing in
Speaker 1: the hood. So something happened, Meek tweeted back in April.
Speaker 1: A good point. I mean it's like, what are you thinking, Like,
Speaker 1: where are you gotta a dress? Where the guns are
Speaker 1: coming from the coming from the d A's office. But
Speaker 1: we'll get more into that, uh in a second. Krasner's
Speaker 1: work has also been praised by the a c l U,
Speaker 1: particularly the work of a Sentencing Integrity Union, which has
Speaker 1: exonerated twenty innocent people who combined lost hundreds of years
Speaker 1: of their lives in prison during his three plus years
Speaker 1: as d A. As well the a c l U
Speaker 1: s opine, none of his predecessors has been as committed
Speaker 1: to rooting out violent cops Krasner see, for example, the
Speaker 1: Philly DA's office taking a case to the Pennsylvania Supreme
Speaker 1: Court challenging the Commonwealth use of force law in a
Speaker 1: case stemming from the prosecution of officer Ryan Pannell, who
Speaker 1: shot and killed David Jones as he fled from the officer.
Speaker 1: So he's cracking down on cracking down on violent cops,
Speaker 1: exonerating and I said, people letting people out of jail,
Speaker 1: Well that are in there for low level crimes or
Speaker 1: lessening the burden of probation on folks that are you know,
Speaker 1: doing quote unquote community supervision. Sounds great, right, Well, we're
Speaker 1: still in the pandemic. So, you know, during his tenure
Speaker 1: in the last year, especially homicide and gun violence in Philadelphia,
Speaker 1: they're on rising levels not seen since the nineties. Skyrocketing
Speaker 1: homicide ray resulting from the pandemic has now created public
Speaker 1: cries for making more rest and getting killers off the streets.
Speaker 1: So we're talking about people were people are saying, oh,
Speaker 1: this guy is leaning on crime, he's letting people out
Speaker 1: of jail. He was not prosecuting people, and that's why
Speaker 1: gun violence is spiking in the city. So the police
Speaker 1: seized upon this pandemic driven rise in crime to promote Mr.
Speaker 1: Krasner's opponent, Carlos Vega. Vega and assistant d A. Hu
Speaker 1: Krasner or former sist in da Hu Krassner fired upon
Speaker 1: taking office two thousand eighteen. However, criminologists have said it
Speaker 1: would be impossible to substantiate the claim that Krastner's policies
Speaker 1: had led to more gun crime, with gun violence has
Speaker 1: risen sharply in many cities at last year, regardless of
Speaker 1: whether their prosecutors were considered progressive. So, I mean, I
Speaker 1: don't I don't understand how people are like pointing at
Speaker 1: like anything that was happening post pandemic to like as
Speaker 1: an explanation for the rising crime. Like the pandemic hit,
Speaker 1: the economy took a hit, and there's mad guns in
Speaker 1: the country, So like, what do people expect is gonna happen.
Speaker 1: That's not like the result of a progressive district attorney, obviously,
Speaker 1: It's just it's like a stupid you know, it's like
Speaker 1: a stupid explanation. And my view is that for every
Speaker 1: person we incarceor rate, we create another criminal. For every
Speaker 1: father we take out of a home and put behind bars,
Speaker 1: that's another child that's gonna become destabilized because they lost
Speaker 1: a breadwinner, because they lost a mentor, and now that
Speaker 1: kid's gonna go out and start robbing people and shooting people,
Speaker 1: or like looking for supports outside the home because he
Speaker 1: no longer has one of his parents and it's gonna
Speaker 1: start rolling with the gang or rolling with folks. You know,
Speaker 1: let's go around breaking in the houses. Oh, let's go
Speaker 1: shopping and um. You know every time uh mother loses
Speaker 1: a son to the car stool system. Uh, you know
Speaker 1: that that drives that drives um, alcoholism, that drives drug addiction,
Speaker 1: that drives hopelessness in despair, that then forces people to
Speaker 1: turn to more crime. So, you know, on the one hand,
Speaker 1: we have people saying, oh, you let people back off
Speaker 1: the streets where they're reoffending. At the same time, I
Speaker 1: think that every time you put someone away, were further
Speaker 1: to stabilizing a community. Quite taking away a family member
Speaker 1: or a friend, or a breadwinner or colleague employee, you
Speaker 1: know whatever, that ultimately drives crime further exactly. But yeah, So,
Speaker 1: the Fraternal Order of Police, the union that represents fourteen
Speaker 1: thousand current and retired officers in the city of Philadelphia,
Speaker 1: has thrown everything they have at d a craft and
Speaker 1: an attempt to oust him, and even when so far
Speaker 1: as to park a soft serve ice cream truck outside
Speaker 1: the District Attorney's office to emphasize that Mr. Krasner had
Speaker 1: been soft on crime, which I love, I love, I love,
Speaker 1: I love Larry's respond In response, Mr Krasner's campaign released
Speaker 1: a statement of support from Ben Cohen of Ben and Jerry's.
Speaker 1: The unions given hundreds of thousands of dollars to Krasner's
Speaker 1: opponent and has encouraged Republican voters to register as Democrat
Speaker 1: in order to vote Krasner out of the Democratic primary. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so Vega was running against Krasner in a Democratic primary.
Speaker 1: It's like I think, uh uh, Democrats out number of
Speaker 1: Republicans in the city of Philadelphia like seven to one.
Speaker 1: So whoever wins the primary, usually it's gonna it's gonna
Speaker 1: be the d A. Yeah. Yeah. So. Krasner's attractive criticism
Speaker 1: from the left too. He's basically been called by the
Speaker 1: A C. L you for backing away from his promise
Speaker 1: to eliminate cash bail to stop holding juveniles and adult jails.
Speaker 1: His prosecutors routinely seek to detain people and have been
Speaker 1: asking judges to issue bail orders of a million dollars
Speaker 1: against certain defendants. Once a huge proponent of ending cash
Speaker 1: bill for many offenses during his first term, he actually
Speaker 1: criticized judges for settling bill too low for gun crimes.
Speaker 1: On juvenile justice front, virtually the same number of youth
Speaker 1: are being charged with adults is before Krasner became district
Speaker 1: attorney do in large parts of Pennsylvania's direct file law,
Speaker 1: which requires that young people accused of certain crimes start
Speaker 1: in adult court. So an additional critique I was leveraged
Speaker 1: by Ernest Owens, who wrote in Philly mag as a
Speaker 1: black queer progressive who was called for the defunding of
Speaker 1: the police. I find Krasner's performative wokeness, a pattern of
Speaker 1: behavior in which he spends more time acting self righteous
Speaker 1: on social issues than achieving progressive goals, distracts from the casts.
Speaker 1: I believe it for starters, the concept of being a
Speaker 1: progressive prosecutor is oxymoronic. Prosecutors, just like the police, are
Speaker 1: part of a flawed system that incarcerates people. Prosecutors are
Speaker 1: committed to convicting people. That's the job. Whether a d
Speaker 1: a's office decides to offer less to charges or not.
Speaker 1: The idea that it can served as a progressive institution
Speaker 1: is patently false. I would never consider a police commissioner progressive.
Speaker 1: Regardless of how many reforms commissioners may plan to make,
Speaker 1: they're still operating within an oppressive system. What makes the
Speaker 1: d A's office any different gave it the institution's longstanding
Speaker 1: history of criminal injustice to poor black and brown people.
Speaker 1: This next part kind of gets at what they reveal
Speaker 1: a lot through the documentaries to the docuseries, which I
Speaker 1: actually did watch some of recently. Ernest continued, as much
Speaker 1: as Krasner would like to pretend the calls for more
Speaker 1: law and order are only coming from Trump or the
Speaker 1: Fraternal Order of Police, they're also coming from the black
Speaker 1: and brown communities he claims to be listening to. In
Speaker 1: the PBS documentary following Krafsner's first term, a black mother
Speaker 1: expresses rifle rage at Krasner after his office frees the
Speaker 1: man who killed her teenage son because investigators accessed incriminating
Speaker 1: evidence without a warrant. So, and then there's another example
Speaker 1: from the documentary where the certain members of the family
Speaker 1: of a Slatin police officer wanted Krassner to pursue the
Speaker 1: death penalty for his murderer, and he had he had,
Speaker 1: you know, running a pledge of not pursuing the of
Speaker 1: the death penalty, and so ultimately he kind of went
Speaker 1: against not what some of the victims family wanted. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and these are black and brown and low income people
Speaker 1: that live in Philadelphia. It's one of those things that
Speaker 1: it's like, you know, people aren't a monolith, and like,
Speaker 1: not everybody, you know, not everybody is as a tied
Speaker 1: to ideology is like has like us sometimes get when
Speaker 1: we're in our bubbles of like dealing with other people
Speaker 1: who are as political as we are all the time,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean, you forget that like some people. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean and and like I like we all. I
Speaker 1: think we all struggle with a desire for vengeance, you know,
Speaker 1: and we have very deeply socialized into us conceptions of
Speaker 1: what justices and it often means making the person that
Speaker 1: hurt you suffer. Um. And so I don't think we
Speaker 1: can even blame people for like turning to that in
Speaker 1: their most in their darkest moments when they've lost a
Speaker 1: member of their family. Um, because that's what we're taught
Speaker 1: all our lives, that justices, and so grappling with that,
Speaker 1: like what does it mean for us to listen to
Speaker 1: those voices to center those voices in the work that
Speaker 1: we do. Even if we disagree with this orientation towards
Speaker 1: punishment and revenge as as as um means of justice
Speaker 1: is something that he has to grapple with and we
Speaker 1: all have to grapple with in this in this work
Speaker 1: of criminal justice reform. I mean, it's it's definitely a
Speaker 1: tough job. I can definitely see how it could uh
Speaker 1: be conflicting for somebody who who is you know, stepping
Speaker 1: into like that role and maybe they have uh, you know,
Speaker 1: of view and a philosophy. That's one way. But just
Speaker 1: like being part of that machine requires you to have
Speaker 1: to make decisions that you know what I mean, just
Speaker 1: fundamentally you're gonna put you be, make you be opposed
Speaker 1: to what you or wise would would be cool with,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. It's it's one of those
Speaker 1: things where I always, like, I I don't know if
Speaker 1: I ever asked you this when we were canvassing for
Speaker 1: Bernie and stuff like that, but like, did you ever
Speaker 1: like that anybody who's like a Bernie supporter ever, like
Speaker 1: wonder if like whatever issue you want to think about it,
Speaker 1: that Bernie or position that like someone like Bernie Sanders
Speaker 1: has now and then they get and then he gets
Speaker 1: into office and like he hears something that none of
Speaker 1: us have privy you know, information to where he's like, oh, okay,
Speaker 1: well then that ship that I was saying, I can't
Speaker 1: do that obviously, you know what I mean, Like because
Speaker 1: of the job just makes you fundamentally from the very
Speaker 1: nature of it. In order to do it a certain way,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean, you either have to throw
Speaker 1: out how it's done or you have to like kind
Speaker 1: of like go again some things that you might believe it.
Speaker 1: I faced that as I faced that in politics constantly,
Speaker 1: where it's like balancing my own values against my duty
Speaker 1: to be responsive to the folks that elected me, and
Speaker 1: like living in a representative democracy being the people's voice
Speaker 1: being versus uh, I guess like embrace embrace of the
Speaker 1: position that that people trusted me to make the right
Speaker 1: decision based on my consciousness when they voted for me.
Speaker 1: So maybe I am just allowed to do what I
Speaker 1: want to do like they were very They're often very
Speaker 1: conflicting views on a number of policy things you have
Speaker 1: to vote on, and also like which voices do you
Speaker 1: listen to, like people want to pay like black and
Speaker 1: brown communities is a monolith like, oh we you know,
Speaker 1: we black. Like all the time I hear black people like, oh,
Speaker 1: black people don't want to fund the police. And then
Speaker 1: all the other side, like the black people are like
Speaker 1: all my niggas like screaming, well, ah, my niggas be
Speaker 1: screaming foxwell what And each each side wants to claim
Speaker 1: that they are the voice of their democrat of their community,
Speaker 1: like I really represent the community. What do I say? Really? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't listen these niggas over here. So um no,
Speaker 1: it's really it's really tricky. It's really tricky. It's conflicting.
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, that's things like that. Those are
Speaker 1: the things that make me, you know, very very respectful
Speaker 1: of people to anybody. There's a there's a certain base
Speaker 1: level of respect that I have for anyone who approaches
Speaker 1: getting into politics and good faith to begin with, because
Speaker 1: it's like, man, there's some hard decisions that you gotta make. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: straight up. So in the end, Larry Krasner ended up
Speaker 1: dustin Carlos Vega. Krasner earned more than double Vegas vote total.
Speaker 1: Krassman's victory two weeks ago likely assures his re election
Speaker 1: ahead of November's general election, because the registered Democrats there
Speaker 1: out number the Republicans like seven to one up there,
Speaker 1: so he's a safe bet to win the whole thing.
Speaker 1: What's interesting is that Krassner's mandate is now far greater
Speaker 1: than it was after his initial elections thousand seventeen, when
Speaker 1: he won the Democratic primary ut percent of the vote
Speaker 1: in a multi candidate field. This year and a one
Speaker 1: on one race, he got about sixty five from the vote.
Speaker 1: Some more people voted for him this time and then
Speaker 1: last time, despite the spike in crime, despite some of
Speaker 1: the critiques in the left, And so it's interesting, um
Speaker 1: that yeah, here we are. I mean, I think there's
Speaker 1: a number of like of like uh aspects of the
Speaker 1: zeit guys that manifested, you know, made this manifest like
Speaker 1: the fucking biggest social movement of my goddamn lifetime last year,
Speaker 1: or that we're still in you know, I'm assuming that
Speaker 1: the So the Carlos Vega guy, he was the Republican candidate,
Speaker 1: well he was running in the Democratic primary, but he
Speaker 1: was a Republican candidate though or was he writing in
Speaker 1: a Democratic he was running as a Democrat. Yeah, backed
Speaker 1: by the cop Union with like hundreds of thousands of dollars. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and so what some had to say about how, why
Speaker 1: has happened? How has happened? UM? Nicholas old Rourke, the
Speaker 1: organizing director for the Pennsylvania Working Families Party, supported Krasner
Speaker 1: pulled the nation voters reacted the FOP spear based propaganda
Speaker 1: and send a fear message. We cannot incarceerate our way
Speaker 1: into public safety. So I mean this this general idea
Speaker 1: that's reimagining of what it means to make our communities safe.
Speaker 1: I think uh expanded his support as the consciousness has
Speaker 1: been raised around UM the need for us to just
Speaker 1: do things utterly differently, more so than it was in
Speaker 1: two thousand seventeen when he was first elected. Kendrew Brooks,
Speaker 1: the Philly councilwoman also elected with the w f P
Speaker 1: party line in two thousand nineteen, had this to say.
Speaker 1: The uprising clearly articulated that the power of the people
Speaker 1: was greater than any one election or elected official, that
Speaker 1: if real change was going to happen, we would have
Speaker 1: to fight for liberation every avenue of power. And so
Speaker 1: I think this again, one of the results of the
Speaker 1: uprising People's Uh Uh increased the earness and attention paid
Speaker 1: to local politics, that things like defund that, things like
Speaker 1: ending mass incarceration start with your d A. They start
Speaker 1: with your police department, it starts with your public defender's office.
Speaker 1: It starts with your local county jail. It's not you know,
Speaker 1: going to Biden and like expecting him to fucking do
Speaker 1: anything about X architected the fucking system we're living in,
Speaker 1: and the federal level doesn't have a ton to do
Speaker 1: with what's happening in your neighborhood with regards to people
Speaker 1: getting picked up by the cops and sentenced to decades
Speaker 1: in prison for stupid ship. Um, all of that is controlled,
Speaker 1: you know, locally, and I think maybe out of last
Speaker 1: summer's uprising came an increased awareness of that and increased
Speaker 1: engagement with that, and that using every avenue of power
Speaker 1: to dismantle the system of mass incarceration, even one that
Speaker 1: is inherently complicit in it to a degree. So yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, like this said, you know, progressive prosecutor definitely
Speaker 1: has oxymoronic a vibe to it, But you know, you
Speaker 1: gotta work with what you got, and sometimes you can't
Speaker 1: be so idealistic in terms of like everything kind of
Speaker 1: has to be, you know, the perfect way that you
Speaker 1: would want it to be. You kind of have to
Speaker 1: just you know, go with what you got, and what
Speaker 1: we got right now is the system. So you know,
Speaker 1: you can't bring it down if you're completely incapable of
Speaker 1: infiltrating it. So you have to try that first. So
Speaker 1: let's get into the music portion of things, where we
Speaker 1: are going to be discussing the relationship between hip hoppers
Speaker 1: and the District Attorney's office. We're gonna get to that
Speaker 1: after the jump. You don't give anyway. That was a
Speaker 1: line from um the late Notorious b I G on
Speaker 1: the song Realist Nigga feature in fifty I think I
Speaker 1: was like a two thousand two the mixtape joint. But anyway, Yeah,
Speaker 1: the district attorney as the character, if you will, and
Speaker 1: hip hop has has been regarded like the police, like
Speaker 1: we were talking about in the beginning of the episode,
Speaker 1: it's mostly like an adversarial relationship. Most of the references
Speaker 1: of it are in resentment or with ill will, people
Speaker 1: expressing like a funk the d A. There's the famous
Speaker 1: outro ad libs at the end of Tupac's pitching me
Speaker 1: rolling where he's he's literally just addressing the d a's
Speaker 1: like a d A. Can you see me? I'm rolling,
Speaker 1: bitch pitching me rolling, you know that sort of ship.
Speaker 1: Meek Mill was in a courtroom in his hometown Philadelphia
Speaker 1: back in two thousand twelve. Based on reports, the judge
Speaker 1: present ideing over the case, it's scolded him for the
Speaker 1: youth for his song titled the Ride. We're gonna check
Speaker 1: that out right now, but I don't understand. We're not
Speaker 1: just to show in front of damn. That's so, I mean,
Speaker 1: this goes so deep. It's like she takes taking taking
Speaker 1: her frustrations out on people in her courtroom. I probably
Speaker 1: need a man, I mean, that's like a harsh critique.
Speaker 1: But the Yeah, the judge admonished him for the lotter
Speaker 1: a bit right, Yeah, and uh you know, instructed him
Speaker 1: to not to mention the d A in any of
Speaker 1: his future recordings. Um. We've also discussed the nationwide phenomena
Speaker 1: of local d as using rap lyrics as evidence in
Speaker 1: cases against uh, you know, local local rappers in their areas,
Speaker 1: with the example that we had of Draco the Ruler
Speaker 1: some sometimes back. We have that example, but justin in
Speaker 1: in searching, there's almost too many cases for us to
Speaker 1: even really reference because it seems like there's one going
Speaker 1: on in every state. I highly recommend this article. Uh.
Speaker 1: It's an NPR article called rap Lyrics in Court Art
Speaker 1: versus Evidence. But it's pretty much a breakdown of like
Speaker 1: it's kind of like a debate article between like a
Speaker 1: you know, a criminal justice advocate and then like some
Speaker 1: legal minds and they're pretty much going back and forth
Speaker 1: about why so many district attorneys offices are using rap
Speaker 1: lyrics and stuff like that, and on what basis they're
Speaker 1: using the lyrics to do that? What are your thoughts
Speaker 1: on that whole thing. Well, I actually participated in a
Speaker 1: panel with this woman named Andrea Dennis earlier this year
Speaker 1: where we were talking about the idea using, uh using
Speaker 1: rap lyrics in trial. It's interesting because, uh, myself and
Speaker 1: my friend Montu who are on the panel, we're talking
Speaker 1: about how, oh rap is the CNN of the of
Speaker 1: the streets. You know, rapis list is journalistic you know,
Speaker 1: expression of our lived experiences out reality. And then the
Speaker 1: author was actually like, actually, you all are wrong. Rap
Speaker 1: Lyrics are fictional. Rap Lyrics are impressionistic. They are not
Speaker 1: talking about actual things that happened. Most of the time
Speaker 1: talking about things and they would like to have happened
Speaker 1: or thinks they want to boast having happened even though
Speaker 1: they did not. It has like a flex that is
Speaker 1: not actually grounded in reality. And for that purpose and
Speaker 1: then for those reasons, rap rap lyrics should not be
Speaker 1: used on trial. And I actually it like fus with
Speaker 1: me because I was like, damn, Like my my argument
Speaker 1: for why, like oh rappist journalism rapids is that also
Speaker 1: can be used against us of like oh rapis journalism. Well,
Speaker 1: this nigga said he shot four people in this song.
Speaker 1: I think it's like a case by case basis, you
Speaker 1: know what I mean? Like it for me, I just
Speaker 1: can't comfortably be like I generally think it's out of
Speaker 1: bounce things because I can think of specific examples just
Speaker 1: imagining it in my head where it's like, okay, I
Speaker 1: would understand that, Like for example, if like Eminem's wife
Speaker 1: we'rena go missing and the cops are like, yeah, we
Speaker 1: want to talk to Emine because we heard some ship.
Speaker 1: Like I'm not you know, all I'm saying is I'm
Speaker 1: just saying I would understand why a detective would be like, oh,
Speaker 1: I'm going to look into that, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1: Like I just feel like if you can go on
Speaker 1: somebody's Instagram account and like, oh, this person was posting
Speaker 1: that they did this, and they were posting that they
Speaker 1: did that, and oh we we we connected a plus
Speaker 1: B and oh that person got caught because they snitched
Speaker 1: on themselves on Instagram. And it seems like people would
Speaker 1: probably do that in rap songs, you know what I mean?
Speaker 1: And and if there is I know that there was
Speaker 1: that case of what was his name is why y
Speaker 1: m W Melly y MW Melly. Yeah, Like again you know,
Speaker 1: I don't I don't know the full details of it,
Speaker 1: so I I, you know, hesitate to speak on it
Speaker 1: like that. But like from my general understanding of how
Speaker 1: that case was going down, he had a song called
Speaker 1: Murder on My Mind that was like a huge hit,
Speaker 1: and it's like literally like giving evidence, you know what
Speaker 1: I mean. It wasn't it wasn't like a stretch like oh,
Speaker 1: we're just gonna grab any of You're just gonna like
Speaker 1: take all of his songs, and it was like nos,
Speaker 1: like oh no, when he said this, it meant you
Speaker 1: know what I mean in that particular song and like
Speaker 1: something like that. It's like with me, I'm like, oh, well,
Speaker 1: I don't want to see somebody go to jail. But
Speaker 1: at the same time, like literally talking about somebody that
Speaker 1: was killed and that person needs justice an accountability to
Speaker 1: So it's complicated and d as do that. D as
Speaker 1: can bring in lyrics as evidence happened, drinking of the
Speaker 1: ruler happened, Melly happens all the time, and then their
Speaker 1: legal minds on either side of the issue trying to
Speaker 1: determine the legitimacy of the practice. Yeah, yeah, I'd have
Speaker 1: to start seeing it happen. So I don't know. It's
Speaker 1: one of those things that I don't know. It's it's
Speaker 1: a very very for me conflicting, conflicting issue because like,
Speaker 1: on one hand, I definitely can imagine like a totalitarian
Speaker 1: state where by the fund is it just pulling up
Speaker 1: people's writing and their artistic expressions and manipulating it and
Speaker 1: using it to lock people up and ship like that.
Speaker 1: But I don't I'm not necessarily sure that that's what's
Speaker 1: happening on that front though. Yeah, I mean we talk
Speaker 1: Abo had that whole episode about Pablo Slho had lyrics
Speaker 1: about praising terrorists and insulting you know, the insulting the monarchy.
Speaker 1: So I guess it just like it becomes a slippery
Speaker 1: slope thing as well. Like at one point it's like
Speaker 1: free speech, not can you not just say like sh
Speaker 1: like just because you want to say it in a song,
Speaker 1: and now you're criminalized for it. In the way things
Speaker 1: are headed now, I can totally see if they can
Speaker 1: start convicting people on stuff like this. Then if you
Speaker 1: make a song that's like a protest song or like
Speaker 1: something that's got like a run the jewels, eat the
Speaker 1: rich and burn down a bank to it, Oh, you
Speaker 1: inspired them to burn down the fucking YadA YadA bank
Speaker 1: or to break such and such window. Now you gotta
Speaker 1: you know you incited to riote with your song. That's
Speaker 1: probably what Keysha Lance Bottoms called up killing Mike and
Speaker 1: said when she got him to that press conference last
Speaker 1: summer where they were like burning down the CNN Center Like, well, Mike,
Speaker 1: I actually have the d A on online too, and um,
Speaker 1: we're very concerned about your lyrics about uh giving them
Speaker 1: CEOs hell the burning of the sofa. Goddamn I left
Speaker 1: to smell. Well, when we find them, we don't kill them.
Speaker 1: We just warter boredom. Um, So I'm gonna need you
Speaker 1: to come down here for this press conference. Other wise, Um,
Speaker 1: look outside your window, a p D is sitting and
Speaker 1: waiting to bring you to the Fulton County Channel. Even
Speaker 1: want to put that bad ju ju in the air
Speaker 1: because I definitely got some stuff out there that could
Speaker 1: definitely be twisted. On the next subject I wanted to
Speaker 1: talk about. This last thing is this uh situation with
Speaker 1: Mark Jones who was a district attorney hopeful a year
Speaker 1: ago he was running in a Columbus, Georgia for a
Speaker 1: district attorney and that how do you pronounced that? Chattah Chachi,
Speaker 1: the Chattahoochie. That's that's quite quite a word, the Chattahoochie
Speaker 1: judicial circuit. Now, he uh filmed a video was to
Speaker 1: get out the vote video with a rapper called Judge Boy.
Speaker 1: We're gonna listen to a little bit of that right now.
Speaker 1: Freedom and legal Yeah, yeah, people we need Why don't
Speaker 1: right now? No kid? He want the band he wonna
Speaker 1: be preaching and talking about it. Oh my god, all right,
Speaker 1: that's enough. What the fund did? I just watching. Yeah,
Speaker 1: the video, I'll explain to the video. It's like a
Speaker 1: bunch of people hanging out cars parked around them, very
Speaker 1: like hip hop video Stale Boy Jays wrapping people got
Speaker 1: like Mark Jones signs. But then Mark Jones is this
Speaker 1: skinny ask white boy in like a blue suit with
Speaker 1: a red tie, and he's like bouncing giving the thumbs up,
Speaker 1: like what the fund is this? And arrest warrant was
Speaker 1: issued shortly after, just thirteen days ahead of his Democratic
Speaker 1: primary by the Columbus Police, and they charged him with
Speaker 1: four felonies and two misdemeanors connection with the video that
Speaker 1: was posted to Facebook after the police said his campaign
Speaker 1: had failed to get a permit to for the shoot
Speaker 1: in the parking lot of the Columbus Civics Center. Now,
Speaker 1: the charges included check this out. The charges included conspiracy
Speaker 1: to commit criminal damage of property, conspiracy to commit interference
Speaker 1: with government property, and conspiracy to commit reckless conduct, and
Speaker 1: they were filed after Jones gave a stinging criticism of
Speaker 1: the District Attorney's Office of Columbus and the Columbus Police
Speaker 1: in response to the reports that officers were confiscating marijuana
Speaker 1: and consuming it while on the job, but he won
Speaker 1: the election is currently he ended up turning himself in,
Speaker 1: but he's currently the district attorney elect. So I I
Speaker 1: assume everything worked out. I didn't follow too much on
Speaker 1: the case props. I gotta give the man props to
Speaker 1: that ship. Yeah, that's why that's I'm actually I'm gonna
Speaker 1: try to I'm gonna try to reach out to him
Speaker 1: so we can get him on the show to talk
Speaker 1: to him, because you know, he's he's billed himself, at
Speaker 1: least I can tell from his Facebook page. He's build
Speaker 1: himself as the People's d a, you know what I mean,
Speaker 1: And he's hip hopping around, so I kind of want
Speaker 1: to talk to the dude and see what that's all about,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. So we might have to
Speaker 1: follow this up on this episode. Well, I mean, that's
Speaker 1: what we got for today, and we will be back
Speaker 1: next week as we always are. I think we are
Speaker 1: going to be if if if if the things aligned
Speaker 1: the way that's supposed to. I think we're going to
Speaker 1: be talking about battle Rap in the next episode and
Speaker 1: some of the political and social implications that that has,
Speaker 1: just in the culture of hip hop and justin pop
Speaker 1: culture in general. That's gonna be a fun one. Can't
Speaker 1: wait to do that. You got anything going? Um? What
Speaker 1: I got? Nah? I'll see you all next week. I
Speaker 1: got I got shift for y'all. Alright, well, everybody be
Speaker 1: safe out there. Uh, you know, we can't go anywhere
Speaker 1: without spitting some some funky fresh traps. Ao Joel, can
Speaker 1: we please get a beat? Hey, this is Dope Knife
Speaker 1: Lingua Franca and we are waiting on reparations. See you
Speaker 1: next week. Listen to Waiting on Reparations on the I
Speaker 1: Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your
Speaker 1: podcasts m