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Speaker 1: On the Bedel Cast, the questions asked if movies have

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Speaker 1: women in them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands,

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Speaker 1: or do they have individualism? The patriarchy? Zef and best

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Speaker 1: start changing it with the Bechdel Cast. Hey Jamie, Hey Caitlin,

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Speaker 1: it's me a journalist and you know you're the lead

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Speaker 1: podcaster of the Bechdel Cast. Yeah, and it's time for

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Speaker 1: our interview. So tell me, Jamie, what is it that

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Speaker 1: you love about podcasts? Sorry, I can't talk right now.

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Speaker 1: I have to go hook up with a podcast fan,

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Speaker 1: the horniest fans in the world. Are you talking about

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Speaker 1: a groupie or is she more of a No, I'd

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Speaker 1: say she's more of a there's no good word for

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Speaker 1: like band aid, like pod aid and for a assistance.

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Speaker 1: I'm more of a way a way. No, wait, wave.

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Speaker 1: There's more possibilities with wave. Oh sure, it's more of

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Speaker 1: a wave. Yeah, there's gotta be there's gotta be puns

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Speaker 1: like podcast something. I think it does speak to the

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Speaker 1: inherent and I say this with love, the inherent dorkiness

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Speaker 1: of having a podcast and being a big fan of

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Speaker 1: them that instead of having our equivalent of like super fans,

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Speaker 1: it's like parasocial relationships I'm very self conscious about. I'm like, oh,

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Speaker 1: we're all such dorks. It's fun. It's fun anyway. Hello,

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Speaker 1: and welcome to the Bechdel Cast. My name is Caitlin Darante.

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Speaker 1: My name's Jamie Loftus. And this is our podcast where we,

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Speaker 1: you know, get profiled and Rolling Stone once and completely

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Speaker 1: lose sight of ourselves and then almost get into a

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Speaker 1: plane accident. Yes, so you know, nice knowing you. No,

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Speaker 1: this is our podcast where we take an intersectional feminist

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Speaker 1: look at your favorite movies. And today a long time

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Speaker 1: request the two thousand Cameron Crow epic question Mark, Almost

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Speaker 1: Sure the Mouse. Yeah, a long time request for the show.

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Speaker 1: And I'm actually kind of glad we're covering it now

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Speaker 1: versus closer to when the show began, because I feel

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Speaker 1: like there's there's ways I feel about this movie now

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Speaker 1: that I may not have been had the tools to

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Speaker 1: articulate five or six years ago. Certainly. Yeah, and we

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Speaker 1: have an amazing guest. Yeah, should we stay what the

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Speaker 1: Bechtel test is? Oh? Fun at any point? Yeah, So

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Speaker 1: we've been doing the show for five thousand years, Caitlin'

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Speaker 1: you're right to say that. What is the Bechtel test anyways?

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Speaker 1: The Bechtel Test anyways is a mediometric created by a

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Speaker 1: queer cartoonist, Alison Bechtel, sometimes called the Bechtel Wallace Test.

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Speaker 1: Many versions of the test. The one that we use

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Speaker 1: is two characters of a marginalized gender with names must

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Speaker 1: speak to each other about something other than a man.

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Speaker 1: Hopefully it's a substantial conversation, something like one of my

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Speaker 1: favorite exchanges towards the end of this movie, I forgive you.

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Speaker 1: I didn't apologize meaningful. I mean that's actually a very

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Speaker 1: very meaningful exchange. That conversation carries a lot of weight

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Speaker 1: and meaning. Yes, for one moment, this movie is about

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Speaker 1: mothers and daughters, and I celebrated that one moment exactly.

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Speaker 1: But anyway, that's the metric that we use simply as

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Speaker 1: a jumping off point to industry a larger conversation and

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Speaker 1: to join us in today's conversation. Is pop culture journalist

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Speaker 1: film editor for The Rape and her book But have

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Speaker 1: you read the book fifty two Literary Gems that Inspired

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Speaker 1: Our Favorite Films, which is coming out on March seventh.

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Speaker 1: It's Kristin Lopez. Hello, I'm so glad I totally didn't

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Speaker 1: plan on this, but I'm wearing my wed Zeppelin T

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Speaker 1: shirt to talk about them. So yeah, yeah, I feel

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Speaker 1: like I came through paired. You did. Penny would be proud.

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Speaker 1: I feel like she would only the best bands. I'm

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Speaker 1: wearing my Titanic sweatshirt. Enny would still be proud. I mean,

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Speaker 1: she would be proud. I feel like she'd give me

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Speaker 1: some shit. I'm wearing an Ariana Grande sweatshirt. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it'd be interesting to see how they the feminist world

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Speaker 1: of rock star groupies would feel about female singers of today.

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Speaker 1: I feel like they would have many opinions, or they

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Speaker 1: would be like boomer women and just be like remember

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Speaker 1: back in our day. I don't know. I feel like

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Speaker 1: they'd be opposite ends of the spectrum. Yeah, totally. So

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Speaker 1: you brought us Almost Famous and we must know. What

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Speaker 1: is your history with this movie? What is your attachment

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Speaker 1: or non attachment to it? Please share with the class. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean, Almost Famous is probably one of my favorite

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Speaker 1: movies of all time. I remember seeing it in the

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Speaker 1: heyday of like when indie film was cool in like

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Speaker 1: the early two thousands. You know, this is like the

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Speaker 1: Garden State era. Right around you know, two thousand to

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Speaker 1: two thousand and three or four, when indie film was

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Speaker 1: still considered small scale, but studios were starting to get

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Speaker 1: into it and making independent films that just had budgets

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Speaker 1: and big stars, intended to win Oscars and had great soundtracks.

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Speaker 1: So for me, this was something that I gravitated towards

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Speaker 1: because of the soundtrack and the time period. You know,

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Speaker 1: I love the era of the seventies rock scene, even

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Speaker 1: though now as as an adult woman, I'm like, hm,

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Speaker 1: there's something to reading Pamela des Bars' book about you know,

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Speaker 1: groupies of the nineteen seventies and the power they held,

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Speaker 1: or watching you know, Cynthia plaster Casts documentary. But then

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Speaker 1: you realize that these were children running around at Los

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Speaker 1: Angeles at like fourteen fifteen, sleeping with grown men, And

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Speaker 1: I've had to reconcile with that a little bit. But

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Speaker 1: you know, as a teenager writing care about that, I

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Speaker 1: was just like the hedonism and let Zeppelin throwing TV

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Speaker 1: off of a balcony and driving a motorcycle through the

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Speaker 1: the you know Continental Hyatt House, Like that's that's cool, thrilling,

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Speaker 1: and also I mean it's it's probably one of the

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Speaker 1: few films that actually details with some authenticity do that

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Speaker 1: I don't think has changed, sadly, the desire to be

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Speaker 1: a journalist as a young person. You know, like I

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Speaker 1: tell people a lot like William Miller is very much

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Speaker 1: my prototype for how I started, you know, big dreams,

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Speaker 1: thinking it was going to be about hanging out with

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Speaker 1: cool people. And I mean Cameron Crowe because he based

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Speaker 1: a lot of that on his own life, really does

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Speaker 1: capture the naivete and the excitement of journalism in a

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Speaker 1: way that I don't think you necessarily get. You know,

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Speaker 1: if you look at like the history of journalism movies,

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Speaker 1: all the president's men, their dudes in three piece suits

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Speaker 1: and you know they're they're breaking like government conspiracies. It's

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Speaker 1: not sexy. It's not fun. I mean Robert Redford is,

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Speaker 1: but you know, water Gates not sexy. Um. So I

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Speaker 1: think there's a lot of different things too. I mean

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Speaker 1: Kate Hudson's great, I mean Billy crude up like that

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Speaker 1: was a moment in time that I'm not really proud of,

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Speaker 1: uh for for set problems. It was a wonderful moment

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Speaker 1: in time, and I think it still remains one of

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Speaker 1: like the de facto like two thousands era films that

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Speaker 1: just really captures like my own desire to be a

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Speaker 1: writer and to be a journalist and sets the bar high,

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Speaker 1: but at times is also ridiculously authentic and like how

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Speaker 1: much how little money you get paid, how much you're

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Speaker 1: working versus how less little you're sleeping. Um, you know,

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Speaker 1: the celebrities are weird, man, and they say that they're

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Speaker 1: your buddies until you write something they don't like, and

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Speaker 1: then it's like, we'll slit your throat up, you know.

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Speaker 1: So it really does capture a lot of the things

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Speaker 1: that you know. Now is it as an adult? You know,

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Speaker 1: I'm like, oh God, I remember those bright starry eyes

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Speaker 1: I had. I mean, I still have them to an extent,

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Speaker 1: but they've slowly been pounded down by time. Tell me

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Speaker 1: about it. There is something so appealing about the like,

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Speaker 1: I totally agree with you. I think the seeing Little William,

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Speaker 1: You're just like, oh that if you see that movie

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Speaker 1: at the right time, You're like, that's me. That's so me.

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna leave home tomorrow. My mom is so oppressive

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Speaker 1: and I'm going to go in the road and everyone's

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Speaker 1: gonna get it. But then it ends up kind of

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Speaker 1: being a cautionary tale, but then also not because if

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Speaker 1: you know anything about Cameron Crowe, which I did when

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Speaker 1: I first saw this movie, I like and it worked out.

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Speaker 1: Now he makes movies man like, so it's not a

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Speaker 1: super cautionary tale because you know that he's ends up

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Speaker 1: like he stays at journalist, he stays an artists. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and then he made elizabeth Town and then people got

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Speaker 1: mad at him. Oh yeah, yeah, I mean Cameron Crowe.

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Speaker 1: I think people forget the camera. Crow had such a

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Speaker 1: string of hits. He was almost too big to fail

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Speaker 1: in the nineteen nineties through to the early two thousands,

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Speaker 1: and I mean I love most of them. You know,

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Speaker 1: they're all problematic ish in different ways. I've still never

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Speaker 1: seen Jerry McGuire. Jerry McGuire is a lot of fun,

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Speaker 1: even though it is again incredibly troubling. But it's got

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Speaker 1: a it's got a fantastic Kelly Preston performance. So I

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Speaker 1: always it's one of those movies that I don't plan

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Speaker 1: on watching and then like an hour will have gone by,

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Speaker 1: but it's great. But then he did this, and then

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Speaker 1: I mean, I don't think Elizabethtown necessarily doomed him. I

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Speaker 1: think it was the film that people just realized that

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Speaker 1: they were sick of him. I think Vanilla Sky was

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Speaker 1: like the first, like Wobble, which I think Vanilla Sky

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Speaker 1: is a fantastic movie. Time is going to tell on

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Speaker 1: that one. And Elizabeth Town. I remember reading the script

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Speaker 1: for Elizabethtown back in the days when people would like

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Speaker 1: trade screenplays that they got from illicit means, and I

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Speaker 1: read the script, and the script that I read was fantastic.

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Speaker 1: The movie is not that. And I know that Crowe

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Speaker 1: is played around with it a bit more, and he's

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Speaker 1: released not necessarily director's cuts, but more extended versions of

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Speaker 1: that film that have gotten I think, closer to the

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Speaker 1: heart of what he wants it to be. But the

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Speaker 1: spark is gone because if you look at everything else,

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Speaker 1: you know, loha, Oh my god, I forgot that with him.

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Speaker 1: And then did he do we bought a zoo? He did?

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Speaker 1: We bought a zoo, which is only good for Matt

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Speaker 1: Damon in a cozy dad's sweater. So, I mean, I

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Speaker 1: don't know. I don't know if maybe he's one of

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Speaker 1: those directors that, like, once you become so far removed

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Speaker 1: from the zeitgeist, you just can't get it back because

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Speaker 1: I think that like Cameron Crowe as a director really

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Speaker 1: defined some some respective eras, whether that was writing the

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Speaker 1: script for Fast Times a Richmond High or say Anything,

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Speaker 1: or or even something like singles. I mean, he was

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Speaker 1: really close to the eras that he got, and I

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Speaker 1: don't know, maybe he's a maybe just you know, the

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Speaker 1: benefits of time and age. He's just not hitting it

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Speaker 1: in the same way. I feel like a lot of

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Speaker 1: directors from this generation are currently in a flop era,

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Speaker 1: and in some cases that's a decades long flop era.

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Speaker 1: I e. Robert Zemeckis and others. Oh yeah, anyway, Wow,

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Speaker 1: Caitlin just took this opportunity to just fling shit for

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Speaker 1: Robert Zamecas for no reason. Look, I had to. We

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Speaker 1: had to watch Pinocchio recently, and I'm still mad about it. Anyway, Jamie,

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Speaker 1: what is your history with almost Famous? I honestly I

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Speaker 1: rewatching this for this episode was kind of a journey

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Speaker 1: because I sort of went into it. I mean I

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Speaker 1: went into it being like, this is a movie I've

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Speaker 1: seen maybe like two times. I was like, I think

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Speaker 1: the first time I saw it would have been in

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Speaker 1: high school, and I liked it, but I don't something

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Speaker 1: about like movies about classic rock or just like not

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Speaker 1: fun for me. Usually it's just not my thing, even

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Speaker 1: though I liked the music itself, but like rock star

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Speaker 1: movies were never really it for me. However, journalism, scrappy

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Speaker 1: little journalism movies are for me. But I think that

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Speaker 1: I saw this movie on both sides of the raging

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Speaker 1: Manic Pixie dream Girl debates of the early twenty tents

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Speaker 1: and place out once before that was like a popular

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Speaker 1: term and was just like, ah, this movie is like

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Speaker 1: I wasn't thinking about it very hard because I was fifteen,

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Speaker 1: and I was like, I want to live on a bus,

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Speaker 1: and I think that might have been the extent of

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Speaker 1: my thoughts. I was like, I don't want to see

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Speaker 1: people do weird stuff, but like be a loser like

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Speaker 1: that seems like we're all excel in life hopefully. And

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Speaker 1: then on the other side, I think it was after

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Speaker 1: the Manic Pixie dream Girl thing, and I came in

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Speaker 1: with a feeling of dismissiveness towards the movie and the

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Speaker 1: character Penny Lane that now watching it again years later,

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Speaker 1: I think was maybe a little unfair, and I don't know, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I feel like if on a whole journey with this

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Speaker 1: damn movie because now, like I don't know, I did

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Speaker 1: that show Lolita podcast a couple of years ago and

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Speaker 1: really looked into how young women and in the case

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Speaker 1: of Penny Lane, girls are you know, hyper sexualized by

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Speaker 1: older men, and like how and then also on top

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Speaker 1: of that, how like fairly complex characters and movies can

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Speaker 1: be reduced to marketing symbols in a way that I

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Speaker 1: feel like Penny Lane kind of has become over the years.

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Speaker 1: And I didn't even realize that when I was going

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Speaker 1: into this viewing. I was coming in with the like

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Speaker 1: poster of Penny Lane in my head and didn't really

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Speaker 1: remember that much about what actually happens with the character,

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Speaker 1: what she says and what she does. And I still

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Speaker 1: think that, you know, we have a lot to talk about,

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Speaker 1: and there's like, certainly not enough to be like she's

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Speaker 1: actually like one of the most well developed characters in

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Speaker 1: film canon, Like she's definitely not. But I do think

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Speaker 1: that there was more to her than I gave credit

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Speaker 1: for on my last viewing. I have a lot of,

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Speaker 1: like I guess Lolita Dolores adjacent thoughts where Penny Lane

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Speaker 1: is the idea, and then Lady is the person and

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Speaker 1: finding the space between that, and then I had a

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Speaker 1: lot of fun looking into the person who Penny Lane

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Speaker 1: is based on, Pamela de Bars. Got a little bit

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Speaker 1: about her for later. I don't know, I just it's

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Speaker 1: been a real day I've been I'm in the fucking zone.

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Speaker 1: I didn't I didn't walk into this recording being like

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Speaker 1: it's time to lightly hand it to Cameron Crowe. But

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Speaker 1: here we are. It's the day we're doing it. Caitlyn.

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Speaker 1: What's your history with this movie? Not a long one.

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Speaker 1: I saw it for the first time in the mid

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Speaker 1: two thousands, I think as a freshman in college, and

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Speaker 1: I was not really I guess I was just kind

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Speaker 1: of indifferent about it. I was not like, Wow, I

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Speaker 1: love this, nor was I like I don't like. I

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Speaker 1: was it's like, okay, now I've seen it. So brave

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Speaker 1: of me to be indifferent about things. And then I

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Speaker 1: watched it again, I would say probably within the past

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Speaker 1: like six years or so, I think, just because I

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Speaker 1: was like, wow, people still talk about this movie a lot.

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Speaker 1: People still ride or die pretty hard for this movie,

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Speaker 1: and I don't remember it at all, So maybe I

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Speaker 1: should watch it again. And I watched it, and I

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Speaker 1: realized I kind of confused this movie with Boogie Nights.

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Speaker 1: Not necessarily like the plot or anything like that. It's

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Speaker 1: more just like scenes that I thought happened in Boogie

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Speaker 1: Nights actually happened. And Almost Famous. I think, like the

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Speaker 1: like guy on the roof and jumping into the pool scene,

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Speaker 1: I was like, that could happen in either a movie.

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Speaker 1: I feel like, so my brain kind of just like

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Speaker 1: confuses scene like individual scenes from those movies. But anyway,

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Speaker 1: the most important thing is that Almost Famous has no

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Speaker 1: Alpha Molina, and so it is by default the weaker film.

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Speaker 1: Um but precisely, you know, I don't think that that

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Speaker 1: means there's there's nothing to love about Almost Famous, But

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Speaker 1: what if Alfred Molina was in it? I also, this

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Speaker 1: is like so goofy. But I forgot that this was

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Speaker 1: the movie where Mark Marin said locked the gates, and

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Speaker 1: I sort of it like itched something in the back

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Speaker 1: of my mind where I was like, wait a second,

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Speaker 1: I like, I just forgot that that was where that

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Speaker 1: soundclip was from. I didn't realize that was Mark Marrin.

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Speaker 1: I didn't either. Yeah, at the beginning of not to

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Speaker 1: out myself as someone that. I mean, do WTFS gave

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Speaker 1: me a really good show, Okay, I can, and I

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Speaker 1: listened to it sometimes when i'm when I'm excited about

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Speaker 1: the guest. Okay. And at the beginning of every episode

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Speaker 1: of the show I've been listening to since high school.

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Speaker 1: That's just started when I was in high school. Wow,

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Speaker 1: And at the beginning of every episode, you guys, there's

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Speaker 1: that there's that clip where he goes, look the gates.

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Speaker 1: Now I'm embarrassed. I like that show sounds like you're

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Speaker 1: a podcast groupy to me, Jamie. He seems nice. Now,

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Speaker 1: my mom was a podcast groupie. My mom. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I think I've told the story in the podcast before.

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Speaker 1: My mom. I showed her WTF when I was in

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Speaker 1: high school and she got really into it, and she

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Speaker 1: had a huge crush on Mark Marin and we saw

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Speaker 1: him do you Stand Up? Once? And he like remembered

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Speaker 1: who she was because she had replied to all of

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Speaker 1: his tweets every single day for months, and he remembered

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Speaker 1: who she was, but like, not in a positive way.

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Speaker 1: He was like, so, Jill the groupie is in my

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Speaker 1: bloody fair Anyway, I'm excited to talk about the movie.

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Speaker 1: So shall we Let's unlock the gates and started this

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Speaker 1: amazing discussion. Let's do that right after we'd take this

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Speaker 1: quick break. All Right, we're back and we're unlocking those gates.

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Speaker 1: Mark Marin would be so mad. All right, shall we?

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Speaker 1: Is it time for Caitlin's famous recap? Yeah, let's do it. Okay,

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Speaker 1: It's nineteen sixty nine in San Diego, California. Ever heard

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Speaker 1: of it? We meet a young William, his mom, Elaine

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Speaker 1: played by Francis mcdormant, and his older sister Anita that's

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Speaker 1: Zoe Deschanelle. William's mom has a lot of rules, but

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Speaker 1: she's also kind of a hippie. But she hates drugs

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Speaker 1: and rock and roll's. But she's also pretty cool and chill.

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Speaker 1: She's also a non conformist who doesn't want them to

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Speaker 1: They don't celebrate Christmas on Christmas. They celebrate in September,

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Speaker 1: so it's not commercial. And they they're maybe vegans, I

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Speaker 1: don't know, they're whatever. Yeah, they see vegetarian vegans, is right.

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Speaker 1: She kind of cracked She cracked me up because I

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Speaker 1: feel like she I've known, like when I was younger,

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Speaker 1: I had like friends with like kind of hippie parents

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Speaker 1: like this where they were so countercultural that they sort

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Speaker 1: of were back to being conservative parents, and like didn't

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Speaker 1: realize it. I was like, but wait, they can't go

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Speaker 1: outside or say bad words, and they're like, yeah, but

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Speaker 1: that's because of counterculture, and you're like, hmm okay. So

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Speaker 1: Elaine and Anita don't get along because of all the

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Speaker 1: things that Elaine has banned in the household. So Anita

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Speaker 1: leaves home and leaves her music collection to William, saying

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Speaker 1: it will set him free, which is the best gift

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Speaker 1: that an elder sibling can give a younger sibling. That's

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Speaker 1: so beautiful. Yes, and I hope that William saved all

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Speaker 1: those records because they would fetch him the mint. Truly

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Speaker 1: someone's dad. Yeah, So yeah, we see him listening to

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Speaker 1: all these records, and then we flash forward to four

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Speaker 1: years later. He is now fifteen. He played by Patrick Fuget.

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Speaker 1: He is an aspiring music journalist and he's kind of

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Speaker 1: following around Lester Bangs. That's Philip Seymour Hoffmann, who is

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Speaker 1: the editor of Cream, a music magazine, and Lester is like,

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Speaker 1: all right, so you want to be a music journalist, great,

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Speaker 1: but don't make friends with rock stars because there'll be

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Speaker 1: a bad influence on you and they'll use you. Just

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Speaker 1: be careful. But he gives William his first assignment to

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Speaker 1: write a thousand words on Black Sabbath. So William goes

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Speaker 1: to a Black Sabbath concert but he can't get in

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Speaker 1: because he's not on the list and he's a baby

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Speaker 1: and he's a child. Also the baby Baby William as

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Speaker 1: Michael Anganaro, which I thought was fun. He's like a

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Speaker 1: child star and an adult star. He's lovely, and he's

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Speaker 1: married to Maya Erskin. He's the hilarious drama teacher in

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Speaker 1: Penn fifteen. If anybody watch this into Okay, he's amazing.

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Speaker 1: But the Patrick fugit, I think it's so like, I

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Speaker 1: don't know, so rare that Like I as I was

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Speaker 1: watching it, I was like, oh, you don't really see

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Speaker 1: a lot of like actual teenagers playing teenagers. Like he's

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Speaker 1: at the exact perfect moment where you're always just like,

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Speaker 1: oh my god. Like he's just so pubizent in struggling,

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Speaker 1: he's extremely fifteen. He's poor kid. Yeah, So outside the

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Speaker 1: Black Sabbath concert, he meets Penny Lane. That's Kate Hudson

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Speaker 1: and some other they're not groupies. They are band aids,

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Speaker 1: as they call themselves, because they are there not for

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Speaker 1: the famous people, but for the love of the music.

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Speaker 1: They're literally kind of announced themselves as like muses. They're like,

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Speaker 1: we are We're not here to fuck the band. We're

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Speaker 1: like a part of a grand tradition, right, But according

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Speaker 1: to be Hugh Phillips, she's like, we still kind of

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Speaker 1: fuck the band. Yeah, it's only what was a lie

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Speaker 1: like way, it's only black jobs. Yeah, just blow jobs

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Speaker 1: and that's it. Yes, there's rules, there's standards. Yes. Uh.

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Speaker 1: Then William meets the guys from fictional rock band Stillwater,

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Speaker 1: although there is a real rock band named Stillwater, but

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Speaker 1: this is not the same band. The Stillwater in this

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Speaker 1: movie is a very fictional band. They are coming into

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Speaker 1: the Black Sabbath concert. I guess they're probably like the Openers,

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Speaker 1: but um, we meet lead guitarist Russell that's Billy Crude. Up.

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Speaker 1: We also meet the lead singer Jeff that's Jason Lee

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Speaker 1: and the other band mates who are far less important characters. Um,

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Speaker 1: but William wants to interview them, and they're like, fuck critics,

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Speaker 1: we play for the fans, and then William shows them

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Speaker 1: that he is a fan because he knows theirs and

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Speaker 1: their songs and other tidbits about them. So they take

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Speaker 1: a liking to William and they get him into the show.

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Speaker 1: Then they invite William to go to La with them

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Speaker 1: and he basically starts touring with Stillwater as they're kind

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Speaker 1: of like journalist on retainer where everyone's role and I

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Speaker 1: know that this is like based in Cameron Crowe's actual experience,

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Speaker 1: but I'm just always like it would be so stressful

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Speaker 1: to me to be in a ragtag group and be

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Speaker 1: that unclear on what my role was. I be like

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Speaker 1: what am I doing here? Like what is my job? Well,

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Speaker 1: it's really like the ultimate who you know story apparently

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Speaker 1: because like he gets the first assignment because he meets

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Speaker 1: Lester Bangs the Great Philip symour Hoffmann who gives him

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Speaker 1: the assignment, and then at a certain point Ben Fong

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Speaker 1: Torres from Rolling Stone just calls him up and says, oh,

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Speaker 1: we've seen some of your stuff. We want you to

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Speaker 1: write for us, which, in Cameron Crowe's actual narrative he

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Speaker 1: did work partially for a Rolling Stone. They did hire

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Speaker 1: him on not knowing how old he was, but like

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Speaker 1: he was doing actual work for them before this, as

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Speaker 1: opposed to just them being like, oh, we read some

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Speaker 1: of your stuff other places and we want to poach

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Speaker 1: you as like probably a permalance, a physition. I don't

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Speaker 1: see them hiring him his staff. So you know, back

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Speaker 1: in the days when you didn't have to show any

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Speaker 1: proof of identity to get a job. They just call

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Speaker 1: him on the phone. They're like, you can write two

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Speaker 1: thousand words for us, right, we don't need a bank

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Speaker 1: account or social Security card. Just tell us where to

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Speaker 1: drop the money. Yeah, no need to hill out tax forms, etc.

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Speaker 1: I liked the few like actual historic figures that they

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Speaker 1: bring in from this era because mostly everyone's made up,

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Speaker 1: but like ben Functuras and lester Bangs, very real guys.

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Speaker 1: I went, my dad was a big lester Bangs head. Okay, yeah,

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Speaker 1: we had some lester Bangs kicking around the house. Make

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Speaker 1: no mistake. Okay. So William starts touring with the band

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Speaker 1: and they're going around the US penny Lane and the

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Speaker 1: other band aids are along for the ride, such as

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Speaker 1: Plexia that's Anna Paquin and Sapphire played by for Roosa

423
00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:26,720
Speaker 1: Balk and Penny Lane is having a not so secret

424
00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:31,360
Speaker 1: affair with the lead singer Russell, even though he has

425
00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:35,399
Speaker 1: a partner back home. And then also William seems to

426
00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:39,760
Speaker 1: have a crush on Penny. Meanwhile, back in San Diego,

427
00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:44,800
Speaker 1: Elane is not thrilled that William is like touring with

428
00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:48,359
Speaker 1: this rock band and she's always calling him and like

429
00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:51,560
Speaker 1: terrorizing the people at the front desk of hotels and

430
00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:54,720
Speaker 1: being like, send a message to my son to stay

431
00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:58,160
Speaker 1: away from drugs. I wish we knew more about Elaine

432
00:25:58,280 --> 00:26:02,159
Speaker 1: because I really I'm just like, she's just I'm like,

433
00:26:02,280 --> 00:26:04,560
Speaker 1: I just want more context for how she got to

434
00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:07,199
Speaker 1: where she's at. I also love that one of the

435
00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:10,439
Speaker 1: many people she calls and interacts with is a pre

436
00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:14,800
Speaker 1: modern family Eric stone Street. Yes, yes, the guy that's

437
00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:18,879
Speaker 1: like your mom really freaked me out. Yeah. I do

438
00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:21,840
Speaker 1: like the idea of Frances McDormand just calling around and

439
00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:24,280
Speaker 1: terrifying different men, which is kind of what she does

440
00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:27,520
Speaker 1: the whole movie. And she's totally fine with the long

441
00:26:27,560 --> 00:26:31,679
Speaker 1: distance charges because she's calling pretty much across the country.

442
00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:35,879
Speaker 1: Yeah right, it's so I mean, I don't know. Also,

443
00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:39,479
Speaker 1: her character was more complicated than I was expecting the

444
00:26:39,560 --> 00:26:44,760
Speaker 1: movie to allow her to be but we'll get there. Yeah.

445
00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:48,919
Speaker 1: So then William gets a call from Ben Funktores at

446
00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:52,919
Speaker 1: Rolling Stone, who wants William to write for them and

447
00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:55,720
Speaker 1: do a piece on Stillwater and they're going to pay

448
00:26:55,800 --> 00:26:59,520
Speaker 1: him a thousand dollars in nineteen seventies money. Oh my god,

449
00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:02,800
Speaker 1: I can't a thousand dollars in twenty twenty three money

450
00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:07,040
Speaker 1: for writing something like that. You're just like, right, okay, cool,

451
00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:10,560
Speaker 1: and like all expenses pay. That's how you know it's

452
00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:17,080
Speaker 1: fucking fiction. They're right. So now Stillwater is apprehensive about

453
00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:21,080
Speaker 1: talking to William because Rolling Stone has a reputation for

454
00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:25,840
Speaker 1: like hating certain bands, and they don't know if they

455
00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:29,159
Speaker 1: can trust him. But they're like, yeah, he's probably harmless.

456
00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:33,880
Speaker 1: So William keeps trying to do an interview with Russell,

457
00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:38,480
Speaker 1: but Russell keeps blowing him off. He's usually too busy

458
00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:43,240
Speaker 1: in his hotel room with Penny Lane. Then Russell and

459
00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:46,879
Speaker 1: Jeff get in a fight about their roles in the

460
00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:50,800
Speaker 1: band and the band's image and all this stuff. So

461
00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:54,560
Speaker 1: Russell takes off, with William saying that he just wants

462
00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:57,800
Speaker 1: to hang out with real people from now on. So

463
00:27:58,119 --> 00:28:01,560
Speaker 1: they go to this party at a fan's house in

464
00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:07,119
Speaker 1: Topeka where Russell does acid and is like, I'm a

465
00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:12,040
Speaker 1: golden God. I'm on drugs, and then he jumps over fun.

466
00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:17,560
Speaker 1: I didn't remember what happens in this movie to the

467
00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:20,600
Speaker 1: extent where I'm like, does he get injured when he jumped?

468
00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:23,080
Speaker 1: Because there are I feel like a few different scenes

469
00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:26,040
Speaker 1: in movies over the years where someone jumps into a

470
00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:29,160
Speaker 1: pool from a great height. Sometimes it's a really cathartic moment.

471
00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:32,679
Speaker 1: Other times they get gravely injured. This one was one

472
00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:35,080
Speaker 1: of the cathartic ones. Sometimes you have not another teen

473
00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:37,880
Speaker 1: movie where it's hilarious. Other times you get Get Him

474
00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:41,160
Speaker 1: to the Greek where Russell Brand does break his arm.

475
00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:44,880
Speaker 1: I hate that. I was probably thinking about Get Him

476
00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:48,560
Speaker 1: to the Greek. It was a moment in time. That's

477
00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:50,920
Speaker 1: a good movie. That's also a great rock star movie.

478
00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:54,000
Speaker 1: So were we ever so young as to be watching

479
00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:58,440
Speaker 1: Get Him to the Greek? Yeah, Oh my gosh. Okay.

480
00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:03,120
Speaker 1: So then and the next morning, the band reconciles and

481
00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:06,720
Speaker 1: they head to Greenville on their next step of the tour,

482
00:29:07,520 --> 00:29:10,280
Speaker 1: but William's deadline for the Rolling Stone piece is four

483
00:29:10,360 --> 00:29:14,280
Speaker 1: days away. And he still hasn't really interviewed Russell, and

484
00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:19,760
Speaker 1: he hasn't written anything substantial yet. Then the band's label

485
00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:26,040
Speaker 1: brings in a new manager, Jimmy Fallon, because they're they're

486
00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:29,640
Speaker 1: current manager doesn't really know what he's doing. So Jimmy

487
00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:31,920
Speaker 1: Fallon comes in. He's like, I know how to do

488
00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:34,680
Speaker 1: all this stuff for you, and also we're gonna fly

489
00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:36,640
Speaker 1: in a plane from now on. And they're like, what

490
00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:42,040
Speaker 1: abandoned Doris the Bus? Yeah? Right, that is like a

491
00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:45,280
Speaker 1: fun movie paner. It's like, bus means your assault of

492
00:29:45,360 --> 00:29:50,680
Speaker 1: the earth. Playing means your sellout garbage. You're like, yeah, exactly,

493
00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:54,880
Speaker 1: but also what a spirit airlines mean? Not addressed in film,

494
00:29:56,080 --> 00:30:00,680
Speaker 1: but also feminist icon Doris the Bus. It's true, you know,

495
00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:08,800
Speaker 1: although classically set in a nurturing role. Yeah, it's complicated anyway.

496
00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:14,080
Speaker 1: So meanwhile, William keeps not going back home as he's

497
00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:17,520
Speaker 1: supposed to. He misses his high school graduation, and then

498
00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:21,040
Speaker 1: Rolling Stone informs him that his piece on Stillwater is

499
00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:23,640
Speaker 1: going to be the cover, so the stakes are even

500
00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:28,520
Speaker 1: higher than They all head to Boston, where, during a

501
00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:34,560
Speaker 1: poker game with some other rock stars, Russell is like, yeah,

502
00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:37,240
Speaker 1: you guys, can have Penny Lane and the other band

503
00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:41,960
Speaker 1: aids after this, because Russell's girlfriend will be joining them

504
00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:44,680
Speaker 1: on the next step of the tour in New York,

505
00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:48,160
Speaker 1: so they kind of have to like distance themselves from

506
00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:54,400
Speaker 1: the band aids. And then William sees this unfold. Penny

507
00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:59,800
Speaker 1: sees Russell with his girlfriend Leslie. She's very upset by this,

508
00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:04,160
Speaker 1: and she takes a bunch of queludes and William finds

509
00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:09,000
Speaker 1: Penny in her hotel room. She's oding. He calls in

510
00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:13,040
Speaker 1: some doctors. They have to pump her stomach. There's more

511
00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:17,640
Speaker 1: that happens in this scene that we will unpack, but

512
00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:22,400
Speaker 1: the next day she's recovered and she kind of wishes

513
00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:27,160
Speaker 1: him farewell and she heads back to San Diego. Then

514
00:31:27,320 --> 00:31:31,400
Speaker 1: William is on the plane with the band. He finally

515
00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:34,480
Speaker 1: is getting his interview with Russell, but then the plane

516
00:31:34,560 --> 00:31:36,920
Speaker 1: runs into an electrical storm and it seems like they

517
00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:40,480
Speaker 1: might crash and die. So everyone starts yelling out all

518
00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:43,640
Speaker 1: of their secrets and they're like, I love you guys,

519
00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:45,960
Speaker 1: but wait a minute, I hate you. I killed a

520
00:31:46,080 --> 00:31:49,680
Speaker 1: man in my car, and then a very two thousand

521
00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:54,120
Speaker 1: gay joke, yes yeah, and everybody slept with the one

522
00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:58,640
Speaker 1: guy's wife. Yeah, yes, it's not like actual like real

523
00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:01,600
Speaker 1: stuff like I been stealing. Like I feel like the

524
00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:04,680
Speaker 1: menu does this a bit better where there like actually

525
00:32:04,760 --> 00:32:07,600
Speaker 1: have consequences like if you're not I mean, I know

526
00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:09,880
Speaker 1: that the manager admits that, like maybe he took an

527
00:32:09,880 --> 00:32:12,640
Speaker 1: extra dollar here, like maybe he's been embezzling. But like,

528
00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:15,600
Speaker 1: considering most of the rock stars of the seventies that

529
00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:19,360
Speaker 1: got like royally screwed over by recording companies, I feel

530
00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:25,440
Speaker 1: that this guy definitely probably stole way more from them, probably.

531
00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:28,920
Speaker 1: And then so William is like, you know what, all

532
00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:31,880
Speaker 1: you guys suck. You claim to be about the fans,

533
00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:34,719
Speaker 1: but Penny was your biggest fan and you used her

534
00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:38,560
Speaker 1: and dumped her. So it's a very intense moment. But

535
00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:41,640
Speaker 1: then the plane recovers from the storm and they all

536
00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:46,400
Speaker 1: survive and they land, and Russell is like, you know what,

537
00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:51,120
Speaker 1: William write whatever you want about us. So now William

538
00:32:51,120 --> 00:32:55,920
Speaker 1: has all these juicy secrets, and with pressure from Rolling Stone,

539
00:32:56,400 --> 00:33:00,320
Speaker 1: he writes this juicy story. But the band and eyes

540
00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:04,520
Speaker 1: everything because they realize they seem super corny and amateurish.

541
00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:09,080
Speaker 1: I love this like another as a fan of journalism movies,

542
00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:12,800
Speaker 1: even when they suck. There's something so fun to me

543
00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:16,720
Speaker 1: about the deadline call. The deadline call comes a couple

544
00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:21,920
Speaker 1: different times. The actor who's enforcing the deadline has really

545
00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:24,160
Speaker 1: never given much to work with, so it always sounds

546
00:33:24,240 --> 00:33:27,360
Speaker 1: kind of goofy, where he's like, all right, William, you

547
00:33:27,480 --> 00:33:30,880
Speaker 1: have one minutes to get me the best story of

548
00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:35,400
Speaker 1: all time or the magazine will explode, and it's like, yeah,

549
00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:38,080
Speaker 1: I feel it. I love when there's a character that's

550
00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:40,280
Speaker 1: like and I'm here to remind you of the stakes

551
00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:43,480
Speaker 1: and you're like, thanks, man, appreciate it. And then he

552
00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:47,400
Speaker 1: says something like oh yeah, when my lady wants me

553
00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:51,760
Speaker 1: to unclog the garbage disposal, I have I understand. I

554
00:33:51,840 --> 00:33:54,480
Speaker 1: gotta get on it too, And I'm like, okay, sir,

555
00:33:57,160 --> 00:34:02,840
Speaker 1: thank you, Ben Fong Taurus. So the band denies everything,

556
00:34:03,080 --> 00:34:05,920
Speaker 1: and so Rolling Stone can't run the story because they

557
00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:08,799
Speaker 1: think William made everything up, which I have a lot

558
00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:11,960
Speaker 1: of issues with that ending, well, at least that section

559
00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:16,600
Speaker 1: as a journalist, Like yeah, of course they're gonna say no,

560
00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:19,759
Speaker 1: they didn't do all of this, which is why you

561
00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:23,879
Speaker 1: have like if he has those seats or like other thing,

562
00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:27,799
Speaker 1: and I'm pretty sure like if he demanded it, they

563
00:34:27,840 --> 00:34:32,120
Speaker 1: could go to legal and pretty much say like sue us.

564
00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:34,840
Speaker 1: Like the US is pretty like when it comes to

565
00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:38,560
Speaker 1: like slander laws. I mean, I don't think Stoewater was

566
00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:40,080
Speaker 1: going to be sue in them because they would have

567
00:34:40,080 --> 00:34:42,760
Speaker 1: had they would have to prove that it didn't happen.

568
00:34:42,880 --> 00:34:45,280
Speaker 1: This is where I'm just like, come on, yeah. Also,

569
00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:48,440
Speaker 1: he has all this stuff on record, like he was

570
00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:55,000
Speaker 1: rolling a job that also stuck for me where you're

571
00:34:55,040 --> 00:34:57,440
Speaker 1: just like, but we've seen him taking notes and recording

572
00:34:57,480 --> 00:35:00,920
Speaker 1: everything the whole time he has their and even so

573
00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:04,000
Speaker 1: you're totally record like he would have more you know,

574
00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:07,799
Speaker 1: leeway than it's implied. And then also at the like

575
00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:11,440
Speaker 1: insult to injury that they cast off the entire like

576
00:35:11,600 --> 00:35:15,919
Speaker 1: blame of that onto like shrew woman who works at

577
00:35:15,960 --> 00:35:19,719
Speaker 1: the magazine who's like, you know, like the feminist kill

578
00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:24,719
Speaker 1: joy at Rolling Stone ruins the story and you're just like, ah, man,

579
00:35:25,320 --> 00:35:27,719
Speaker 1: You're just like, oh, it's a conspiracy. So the Who

580
00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:29,840
Speaker 1: can get on the cover of Rolling Stone, which I

581
00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:32,560
Speaker 1: was like, I love that still Water with your first

582
00:35:32,640 --> 00:35:36,600
Speaker 1: choice and the Who in nineteen sixteen, nineteen seventy whatever

583
00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:40,480
Speaker 1: with your backup choice, Like, that's offensive to rog your

584
00:35:40,520 --> 00:35:44,600
Speaker 1: daltry in so many levels, right, especially because at this

585
00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:48,440
Speaker 1: point in this like fictional band's career, they were still

586
00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:52,200
Speaker 1: an opening act. It seemed. Yeah, yeah, there's no like moment.

587
00:35:52,280 --> 00:35:55,080
Speaker 1: There's no like Star is Born moment where they like

588
00:35:55,680 --> 00:35:57,759
Speaker 1: have a song that races up the chart. I mean,

589
00:35:57,800 --> 00:36:00,600
Speaker 1: it's not it's not that thing you do. Not pretend

590
00:36:00,640 --> 00:36:03,000
Speaker 1: to be nice and Josie and the Pussycats yet. No,

591
00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:06,480
Speaker 1: and I mean I know as I know he sells.

592
00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:09,160
Speaker 1: It is like it's a think piece, which is that's

593
00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:11,600
Speaker 1: pretty much every journalist like thing where we don't know

594
00:36:11,640 --> 00:36:13,239
Speaker 1: what the hell to say. We're like, it's a think

595
00:36:13,239 --> 00:36:17,640
Speaker 1: piece about a working band making good and you know like, okay,

596
00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:21,320
Speaker 1: yeah that's great. It's not original, but I mean it's

597
00:36:21,360 --> 00:36:24,919
Speaker 1: it's doable. Um, So I mean I guess that's that's

598
00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:27,600
Speaker 1: your angle. So I mean, damn, dude, you better have

599
00:36:27,640 --> 00:36:29,640
Speaker 1: a really great story to back that up from every

600
00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:37,200
Speaker 1: other working band making good in the nineteen seventy Yeah,

601
00:36:37,200 --> 00:36:40,400
Speaker 1: can I have I have one more? I'm late to

602
00:36:40,480 --> 00:36:43,560
Speaker 1: adding that it's no blank from other music mon oh, no,

603
00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:47,240
Speaker 1: go for it. It's no Cinderella from the Cheetah Girls. Folks,

604
00:36:47,600 --> 00:36:51,960
Speaker 1: it's yeah, overnight hit, which I mean, I shouldn't complain.

605
00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:55,799
Speaker 1: Nobody's really watching Almost Famous for the journalistic elements of it,

606
00:36:55,880 --> 00:36:58,440
Speaker 1: I get it, But as a journalist, I just have

607
00:36:58,480 --> 00:37:02,040
Speaker 1: to be like, this is not how actual writing works.

608
00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:08,920
Speaker 1: Are you saying that Hollywood has misrepresented something? I mean, yeah, Hollywood.

609
00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:12,200
Speaker 1: If we're talking about how Hollywood has represented journalism again,

610
00:37:12,200 --> 00:37:16,000
Speaker 1: they're all hot dudes that are breaking like government corruption

611
00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:18,600
Speaker 1: in three piece suits looking like Bob Radford and or

612
00:37:19,239 --> 00:37:22,560
Speaker 1: they are female reporters who are sleeping with their sources

613
00:37:22,600 --> 00:37:25,440
Speaker 1: a la Amy Schumer or all of the other female

614
00:37:25,520 --> 00:37:28,239
Speaker 1: journalists that apparently can't keep it in their pants. Or

615
00:37:29,160 --> 00:37:34,000
Speaker 1: they're female journalists who are, in spite of being journalists,

616
00:37:34,560 --> 00:37:38,440
Speaker 1: constantly referred to as mothers and wives like the recent

617
00:37:38,520 --> 00:37:43,319
Speaker 1: movie she said, Oh yeah yeah, or they're they're never

618
00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:45,680
Speaker 1: been kissed, you know where. It's just like, we want

619
00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:49,200
Speaker 1: to have you relive your trauma in order to sustain

620
00:37:49,239 --> 00:37:53,040
Speaker 1: a story. Godos. I feel like if a woman had

621
00:37:53,080 --> 00:37:56,000
Speaker 1: been at the center of Almost Famous, this would have

622
00:37:56,080 --> 00:37:59,200
Speaker 1: been like pretty baby or something. This would have taken

623
00:37:59,239 --> 00:38:01,040
Speaker 1: a really dark her where they would have been like,

624
00:38:01,080 --> 00:38:04,799
Speaker 1: we can't take you seriously as a journalist. You're a groupie, right,

625
00:38:05,040 --> 00:38:08,360
Speaker 1: she would have been completely mistaken as a woman offering

626
00:38:08,440 --> 00:38:14,560
Speaker 1: sex with like a no patner hand. So, oh, you're

627
00:38:14,600 --> 00:38:18,000
Speaker 1: totally right. You're totally right. And it's like, uh, I

628
00:38:18,040 --> 00:38:21,760
Speaker 1: don't think I want that movie. I mean I kind

629
00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:23,759
Speaker 1: of do, but I would love, like maybe like a

630
00:38:23,840 --> 00:38:27,560
Speaker 1: Lourene Scafaria or like a woman who actually understands the

631
00:38:27,680 --> 00:38:31,480
Speaker 1: nuances of that era in some way to do it

632
00:38:31,560 --> 00:38:34,799
Speaker 1: because I think that, I mean, I have a lot

633
00:38:34,840 --> 00:38:36,959
Speaker 1: of opinions. I'll let you get through the recap before

634
00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:40,279
Speaker 1: I started throwing them out. So, because the band has

635
00:38:40,400 --> 00:38:44,560
Speaker 1: denied all of these you know, stories and quotes and stuff,

636
00:38:44,600 --> 00:38:48,680
Speaker 1: William basically gets fired from Rolling Stone, so he goes

637
00:38:48,719 --> 00:38:50,960
Speaker 1: to the airport to go back home, where he runs

638
00:38:50,960 --> 00:38:55,200
Speaker 1: into his sister Anita. They both return home and reunite

639
00:38:55,280 --> 00:39:01,840
Speaker 1: with their mom Elaine. Meanwhile, Russell calls Lane to see

640
00:39:01,880 --> 00:39:05,120
Speaker 1: how she's doing. He wants to meet up and like

641
00:39:05,719 --> 00:39:08,000
Speaker 1: clear the air and say the things they never said

642
00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:11,560
Speaker 1: to each other, and she gives him an address that

643
00:39:11,680 --> 00:39:15,960
Speaker 1: turns out to be William's address, so Russell shows up

644
00:39:16,080 --> 00:39:21,359
Speaker 1: realizes it's not Penny's house, it's Williams. And he's like, hey,

645
00:39:21,840 --> 00:39:26,480
Speaker 1: I called Rolling Stone and I was like, actually, what

646
00:39:26,760 --> 00:39:31,240
Speaker 1: William wrote was true. And then William's like, Okay, let's

647
00:39:31,239 --> 00:39:33,600
Speaker 1: do this one last time, and he takes out his

648
00:39:33,680 --> 00:39:37,960
Speaker 1: recording device and he starts to interview Russell again, and

649
00:39:38,000 --> 00:39:41,680
Speaker 1: then the movie ends with William's story does end up

650
00:39:41,680 --> 00:39:45,359
Speaker 1: on the cover of Rolling Stone. Penny. We see her

651
00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:48,919
Speaker 1: leaving on the trip to Morocco that she's always wanted

652
00:39:48,960 --> 00:39:52,760
Speaker 1: to go on. We see the band continuing to play together,

653
00:39:53,000 --> 00:39:56,880
Speaker 1: and we see William hanging out with his family. Yeah

654
00:39:56,960 --> 00:40:00,040
Speaker 1: the end as led Zeppelin plays at the end and

655
00:40:01,120 --> 00:40:05,200
Speaker 1: getting another Zeppelin reference in there. Yeah, let's take a

656
00:40:05,280 --> 00:40:07,759
Speaker 1: quick break and then we will come back to discuss.

657
00:40:14,120 --> 00:40:19,600
Speaker 1: And we're back, and we're back. Where shall we start

658
00:40:19,640 --> 00:40:23,600
Speaker 1: with this movie? There's so much to talk about. I mean,

659
00:40:23,640 --> 00:40:26,000
Speaker 1: I think I think for me, there there's two there's

660
00:40:26,040 --> 00:40:29,719
Speaker 1: two things that are worth pointing out. So I don't know,

661
00:40:29,800 --> 00:40:31,960
Speaker 1: did you got you guys. I'm assuming saw the theatrical

662
00:40:32,080 --> 00:40:35,120
Speaker 1: version of this. Yes, Oh, I guess I don't know

663
00:40:35,200 --> 00:40:40,120
Speaker 1: the difference, but I saw whatever version is on Amazon Prime. Okay, Yeah,

664
00:40:40,120 --> 00:40:43,279
Speaker 1: because there's there's two versions. There's there's the theatrical cut,

665
00:40:43,320 --> 00:40:46,520
Speaker 1: and then there's crows director's cut, which is commonly called

666
00:40:46,600 --> 00:40:49,000
Speaker 1: untitled UM, which is what he wanted to name the

667
00:40:49,040 --> 00:40:51,839
Speaker 1: movie and they told him, no, you can't. People will

668
00:40:51,880 --> 00:40:55,200
Speaker 1: get confused by a movie with no title called untitled,

669
00:40:55,239 --> 00:41:01,160
Speaker 1: which is fair enough. And the un title version is

670
00:41:01,239 --> 00:41:04,719
Speaker 1: maybe about half an hour longer it's and it's got

671
00:41:04,760 --> 00:41:08,880
Speaker 1: a bit more backstory, particularly with regards to Penny Lane's

672
00:41:08,960 --> 00:41:12,200
Speaker 1: relationship with Russell Hammond. It's kind of frustrating that they

673
00:41:12,200 --> 00:41:15,439
Speaker 1: cut so like that sequence when they first re meet

674
00:41:15,640 --> 00:41:19,640
Speaker 1: at the hotel and the ice room where you just

675
00:41:19,640 --> 00:41:22,279
Speaker 1: see her coat go over the window to block it.

676
00:41:22,560 --> 00:41:25,360
Speaker 1: There's a whole dialogue exchange there that goes on that

677
00:41:25,520 --> 00:41:28,920
Speaker 1: pretty much like yeah, yeah, that lays out their history

678
00:41:29,280 --> 00:41:32,160
Speaker 1: and pretty much she's like the back and forth of

679
00:41:32,239 --> 00:41:34,920
Speaker 1: like she doesn't want to, but she can't help it,

680
00:41:35,840 --> 00:41:39,880
Speaker 1: you know. There's an extended sequence about her birthday that

681
00:41:40,040 --> 00:41:43,520
Speaker 1: is just like heartbreaking leading up to the reveal that

682
00:41:43,800 --> 00:41:47,800
Speaker 1: they've sold the groupies to Humble Pie, where Jimmy Fallon

683
00:41:47,920 --> 00:41:50,200
Speaker 1: just like treats her like shit and it's just like

684
00:41:50,239 --> 00:41:53,120
Speaker 1: another like poker. So there's a lot more to her

685
00:41:53,200 --> 00:41:57,319
Speaker 1: character in the untitled version, as well as more like

686
00:41:57,640 --> 00:42:01,759
Speaker 1: inside rock things like I think the Mark Marin scene

687
00:42:01,800 --> 00:42:04,560
Speaker 1: goes all longer in that one. Uh So I would

688
00:42:04,600 --> 00:42:08,839
Speaker 1: say to people Mark Merrin, yes, I would say, if

689
00:42:08,840 --> 00:42:12,080
Speaker 1: you haven't, it's it's worth watching the director's cut, if

690
00:42:12,160 --> 00:42:14,480
Speaker 1: only because I think the biggest complaint a lot of

691
00:42:14,480 --> 00:42:18,439
Speaker 1: people have when they watch the theatrical is like, well,

692
00:42:18,480 --> 00:42:20,120
Speaker 1: I don't know why she would give this guy the

693
00:42:20,160 --> 00:42:23,200
Speaker 1: time of day other than he's hot, you know, and

694
00:42:23,280 --> 00:42:25,920
Speaker 1: he's a rock star. In the movie, there are a

695
00:42:25,960 --> 00:42:29,839
Speaker 1: couple more scenes that showcase this history. She doesn't seem

696
00:42:29,920 --> 00:42:32,600
Speaker 1: quite as naive when it comes to him. So I

697
00:42:32,640 --> 00:42:34,439
Speaker 1: just had to throw that out. It's worth It's worth

698
00:42:34,440 --> 00:42:37,520
Speaker 1: a watch. It doesn't completely fix the Penny Lane issues,

699
00:42:37,560 --> 00:42:40,400
Speaker 1: but it gives a little bit more backstory. Sure, I

700
00:42:40,480 --> 00:42:43,440
Speaker 1: watched the ice box scene and then I read about

701
00:42:43,480 --> 00:42:45,560
Speaker 1: the kind of the rest of their mouth stuff, and

702
00:42:45,600 --> 00:42:49,160
Speaker 1: I do feel like it would, yeah, like help a

703
00:42:49,200 --> 00:42:52,640
Speaker 1: little bit because so much of I don't know, I

704
00:42:52,680 --> 00:42:55,640
Speaker 1: have so many complicated feelings about Penny Lane. But I

705
00:42:55,760 --> 00:42:59,399
Speaker 1: think that in the theatrical cut, before I started doing

706
00:42:59,560 --> 00:43:03,319
Speaker 1: research when I just watched it raw. I mean there,

707
00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:06,560
Speaker 1: you just don't get to learn very much about her

708
00:43:06,719 --> 00:43:09,879
Speaker 1: until the very end, and that's because you know, this

709
00:43:09,920 --> 00:43:14,560
Speaker 1: movie is so told through William's eyes and like part

710
00:43:14,600 --> 00:43:17,040
Speaker 1: of and so that's like, I guess that's where I

711
00:43:17,200 --> 00:43:19,760
Speaker 1: struggle with it. Where it's I think the criticism around

712
00:43:20,080 --> 00:43:24,239
Speaker 1: how little we know about her is like well placed,

713
00:43:24,280 --> 00:43:26,120
Speaker 1: and we don't know a lot about this character, but

714
00:43:26,160 --> 00:43:29,359
Speaker 1: this movie is being narrated by someone who doesn't know

715
00:43:29,400 --> 00:43:34,319
Speaker 1: a lot about her and is clearly like idealizing her

716
00:43:34,520 --> 00:43:37,480
Speaker 1: in a way that is, you know that maybe is

717
00:43:37,520 --> 00:43:39,920
Speaker 1: like what she how she wants to be idealized, but

718
00:43:40,040 --> 00:43:42,280
Speaker 1: not as is not a reflection of who she actually

719
00:43:42,360 --> 00:43:45,440
Speaker 1: is as a person. And I do think that that's

720
00:43:45,480 --> 00:43:51,319
Speaker 1: really interesting in a character. I don't know, I don't

721
00:43:51,360 --> 00:43:52,840
Speaker 1: know how well I'm going to be able to articulate

722
00:43:52,840 --> 00:43:55,880
Speaker 1: my thoughts on Penny Lane, because there definitely is like

723
00:43:56,280 --> 00:43:59,839
Speaker 1: so much going on with her in terms of like

724
00:44:00,520 --> 00:44:02,879
Speaker 1: who she wants to project to the world versus who

725
00:44:02,880 --> 00:44:05,440
Speaker 1: she actually is, which is like such a thing for

726
00:44:05,719 --> 00:44:09,320
Speaker 1: sixteen year olds that I feel like it's overly dismissive

727
00:44:09,360 --> 00:44:11,040
Speaker 1: to be like Penny Lane is not a real character.

728
00:44:11,040 --> 00:44:14,400
Speaker 1: It's like, well, no, Penny Lane is a like character

729
00:44:14,960 --> 00:44:18,400
Speaker 1: that lady devised for herself to be able to navigate

730
00:44:18,440 --> 00:44:22,319
Speaker 1: the world. And you know, you can have issues with

731
00:44:22,680 --> 00:44:24,960
Speaker 1: that on its face, and you can have issues with

732
00:44:25,080 --> 00:44:29,080
Speaker 1: like a you know world where that seems necessary. But

733
00:44:29,120 --> 00:44:31,319
Speaker 1: I don't think that that means that it's not a

734
00:44:31,400 --> 00:44:35,560
Speaker 1: character worth examining. It's she's a Cameron Crowe woman, I

735
00:44:35,600 --> 00:44:38,600
Speaker 1: think is the big thing. You know, like Cameron Crowe

736
00:44:39,200 --> 00:44:41,920
Speaker 1: is nothing if not consistent with the types of women

737
00:44:41,960 --> 00:44:45,040
Speaker 1: that he has written. You know, she's she's Dorothy Boyd

738
00:44:45,239 --> 00:44:48,080
Speaker 1: and Dorothy Boyd I think, yeah, Dorothy Boyard is the

739
00:44:48,080 --> 00:44:50,719
Speaker 1: Renees Awa, her character in Jerry Maguire, you know, the

740
00:44:50,840 --> 00:44:54,120
Speaker 1: woman that makes you want to be a better man,

741
00:44:54,400 --> 00:44:57,439
Speaker 1: you know, type of thing hit a woman who has

742
00:44:57,520 --> 00:45:02,000
Speaker 1: you at hello. Yes, yes, exactly. And they're all blonde too.

743
00:45:02,040 --> 00:45:04,160
Speaker 1: Like we didn't really start to realize that he was

744
00:45:04,200 --> 00:45:07,760
Speaker 1: actually creating the same type, you know, like Penelope Cruz

745
00:45:07,800 --> 00:45:11,360
Speaker 1: and Ventila Skies is very similar. Or of course, like

746
00:45:11,400 --> 00:45:14,560
Speaker 1: the Apotheosis is the Manipixie dream girl. Karson Dunst in

747
00:45:14,680 --> 00:45:19,279
Speaker 1: Elizabethtown and that's where it becomes dissociative, yes, And I

748
00:45:19,320 --> 00:45:22,600
Speaker 1: think what's what's interesting is Crowe has talked about how

749
00:45:22,640 --> 00:45:25,719
Speaker 1: he wrote Penny Lane to be a tribute to the

750
00:45:25,800 --> 00:45:30,719
Speaker 1: women that he saw on the road in groupie situations

751
00:45:30,719 --> 00:45:34,160
Speaker 1: now what we know as groupies, And it's really jarring

752
00:45:34,239 --> 00:45:36,839
Speaker 1: to me again to watch this movie as a teenager

753
00:45:37,360 --> 00:45:41,800
Speaker 1: and to read Pamela Despar's book and numerous other groupies

754
00:45:41,800 --> 00:45:44,760
Speaker 1: of this time period of written books and Cynthia plaster

755
00:45:44,840 --> 00:45:48,000
Speaker 1: Casts did a documentary which is also really interesting worth watching,

756
00:45:48,000 --> 00:45:51,680
Speaker 1: and these women will tell you that in the nineteen seventies,

757
00:45:51,719 --> 00:45:54,480
Speaker 1: which was a far more permissive time, that they felt

758
00:45:54,520 --> 00:45:57,440
Speaker 1: there was empowerment in being a groupie, that they are

759
00:45:57,560 --> 00:46:01,560
Speaker 1: inspiring the music right as as as she says, you know,

760
00:46:01,600 --> 00:46:05,840
Speaker 1: and that did happen? You know, I think, like what

761
00:46:06,000 --> 00:46:09,759
Speaker 1: is it? Rolling Stone referred to groupies by name in

762
00:46:09,840 --> 00:46:13,520
Speaker 1: some of their songs. Zeppelin did it, like all of

763
00:46:13,560 --> 00:46:17,560
Speaker 1: them have name dropped. But now to go back to

764
00:46:17,640 --> 00:46:19,919
Speaker 1: this post me two world that we're living in now,

765
00:46:20,040 --> 00:46:24,120
Speaker 1: especially like watching the movie this week after like Steven

766
00:46:24,120 --> 00:46:28,000
Speaker 1: Tyler got sued for sexually assaulting a minor who he

767
00:46:28,120 --> 00:46:31,160
Speaker 1: also talked openly about having a relationship with when she

768
00:46:31,280 --> 00:46:34,600
Speaker 1: was a child. It hits differently now, I think, like

769
00:46:34,760 --> 00:46:38,080
Speaker 1: I realized I had aged differently with this movie when

770
00:46:38,120 --> 00:46:41,520
Speaker 1: I realized that Penny Lane, they make a very specific

771
00:46:41,560 --> 00:46:45,520
Speaker 1: point of saying that she's over eighteen. She's clearly over

772
00:46:45,560 --> 00:46:48,759
Speaker 1: twenty one because they're drinking too, So like she's in

773
00:46:48,800 --> 00:46:53,520
Speaker 1: this weird non specific age limit where she's clearly legal,

774
00:46:53,960 --> 00:46:58,920
Speaker 1: but she's not old and decrepit, like twenty okay, because yeah,

775
00:46:58,960 --> 00:47:02,120
Speaker 1: because I was really I mean, and we'll talk, we'll

776
00:47:02,160 --> 00:47:06,440
Speaker 1: get into this, but this movie's approach to consent. This

777
00:47:06,560 --> 00:47:12,160
Speaker 1: movie is approached to underage characters and their sexuality. Right.

778
00:47:12,239 --> 00:47:15,520
Speaker 1: Not bad, it's real bad. Um, But I was like,

779
00:47:15,760 --> 00:47:19,400
Speaker 1: how old are these these band aids? Because there's a

780
00:47:19,400 --> 00:47:23,520
Speaker 1: scene early on where Penny Lane is talking to William

781
00:47:23,680 --> 00:47:26,560
Speaker 1: and she's like, how old are you? And he's like eighteen.

782
00:47:26,800 --> 00:47:29,880
Speaker 1: She's like me too, okay, but how old are we really?

783
00:47:30,000 --> 00:47:33,319
Speaker 1: And he goes seventeen. She says me too, and he's like, well,

784
00:47:33,360 --> 00:47:35,880
Speaker 1: I'm sixteen. She says me too, and then he's like,

785
00:47:36,000 --> 00:47:38,799
Speaker 1: but I'm also fifteen, and then she stops talking. So

786
00:47:38,840 --> 00:47:41,480
Speaker 1: I'm like, okay, I guess she's sixteen. But I also

787
00:47:42,080 --> 00:47:44,360
Speaker 1: wasn't sure if she was just kind of like playing

788
00:47:44,400 --> 00:47:47,600
Speaker 1: along with him. Yeah, she's playing along with him. She says,

789
00:47:47,640 --> 00:47:50,640
Speaker 1: the truth sounds different. You know, it's clear that she

790
00:47:50,680 --> 00:47:53,839
Speaker 1: can tell that he's not being truthful. I mean, I

791
00:47:54,000 --> 00:47:57,720
Speaker 1: got the impression, and I think it's helped by Kate Hudson. Looking.

792
00:47:57,760 --> 00:47:59,880
Speaker 1: I think she was like what twenty twenty two was

793
00:48:00,120 --> 00:48:02,920
Speaker 1: early twenties when she was twenty one when the movie

794
00:48:03,000 --> 00:48:06,120
Speaker 1: came out, because she's born in seventy nine, so she

795
00:48:06,200 --> 00:48:07,680
Speaker 1: was an adult one of his film. But then I

796
00:48:07,760 --> 00:48:11,960
Speaker 1: went and looked at the script because the script usually

797
00:48:12,040 --> 00:48:15,760
Speaker 1: tells how old a character is or ballpark. So here's

798
00:48:15,760 --> 00:48:18,160
Speaker 1: what I found. As far as Penny Lane, her character

799
00:48:18,200 --> 00:48:21,960
Speaker 1: introduction does not specify how old she is, so we

800
00:48:22,280 --> 00:48:26,600
Speaker 1: don't have anything to go on there. But Plexia when

801
00:48:26,640 --> 00:48:30,760
Speaker 1: her character is introduced, here's what the script says. Another

802
00:48:30,880 --> 00:48:33,759
Speaker 1: breathless girl teetering on tall shoes. She is in the

803
00:48:33,880 --> 00:48:36,960
Speaker 1: vicinity of sixteen. Her black hair is cropped short and

804
00:48:37,040 --> 00:48:39,439
Speaker 1: died red, just like the cover of Bowie's Aladdin Sane.

805
00:48:39,719 --> 00:48:44,680
Speaker 1: She is Plexia, the voluptuous one from Riverside. So Polexia

806
00:48:44,880 --> 00:48:50,160
Speaker 1: sixteen years old. Here we go for outsteps Sapphire nineteen,

807
00:48:50,280 --> 00:48:54,200
Speaker 1: a tall girl with taller platforms, heavy eye makeup, etc.

808
00:48:55,040 --> 00:48:59,360
Speaker 1: So we have a Sapphire who's the Froosa Baut character.

809
00:48:59,600 --> 00:49:06,000
Speaker 1: She is nineteen in the script. Then we have chattering

810
00:49:06,080 --> 00:49:11,480
Speaker 1: excitedly with sophistication far beyond her seventeen years. Is Australia

811
00:49:11,960 --> 00:49:15,080
Speaker 1: so or estralla, I don't know how she pronounces it.

812
00:49:16,440 --> 00:49:19,960
Speaker 1: So she is seventeen. So we have these characters who

813
00:49:20,000 --> 00:49:23,799
Speaker 1: are no older than nineteen, and some as young as

814
00:49:23,840 --> 00:49:28,960
Speaker 1: sixteen Penny Lane unclear. Again it's not specified, but I

815
00:49:29,080 --> 00:49:31,960
Speaker 1: have to assume because even if they are drinking, that

816
00:49:32,000 --> 00:49:35,399
Speaker 1: doesn't mean they're of legal drinking age, right because they're

817
00:49:35,480 --> 00:49:38,200
Speaker 1: usually like you know, they're in hotel rooms and stuff

818
00:49:38,239 --> 00:49:40,880
Speaker 1: like that where they wouldn't be carded or anything. I

819
00:49:41,040 --> 00:49:45,359
Speaker 1: feel like Penny Lane could very easily be sixteen. There's

820
00:49:45,400 --> 00:49:48,360
Speaker 1: definitely a chance that she's not of age. Yeah, the movie.

821
00:49:48,440 --> 00:49:50,520
Speaker 1: The movie puts her in this like she's old enough

822
00:49:50,560 --> 00:49:54,120
Speaker 1: to party age whatever age that you want that to be.

823
00:49:54,400 --> 00:49:57,480
Speaker 1: And and I mean to read Pamela Dispar's book in

824
00:49:57,520 --> 00:50:00,960
Speaker 1: the other like groupies of that era sixteen would be

825
00:50:01,120 --> 00:50:03,719
Speaker 1: nice because like a lot of these girls started out

826
00:50:03,719 --> 00:50:07,240
Speaker 1: at like thirteen, fourteen, fifteen. I mean they're they're babies

827
00:50:07,480 --> 00:50:10,480
Speaker 1: who had very permissive parents, you know, or we're not

828
00:50:11,000 --> 00:50:13,240
Speaker 1: you know, came from from families where it was okay

829
00:50:13,239 --> 00:50:14,920
Speaker 1: for them to be running around and I mean you

830
00:50:15,080 --> 00:50:18,560
Speaker 1: and I think what's hard for me to reconcile with

831
00:50:18,800 --> 00:50:21,640
Speaker 1: is like the real world implications of what we now know.

832
00:50:21,840 --> 00:50:25,719
Speaker 1: You know, like what is an Axel Rose adopted his

833
00:50:25,800 --> 00:50:28,840
Speaker 1: teenage girlfriend, you know, so he could write sweetch out

834
00:50:28,719 --> 00:50:32,480
Speaker 1: of Mine or something like that, like absurd. Yeah, I

835
00:50:32,520 --> 00:50:35,600
Speaker 1: mean there's like I mean, the list I feel like

836
00:50:35,640 --> 00:50:38,480
Speaker 1: the lists of kind of classic rockers of the sixteen

837
00:50:38,520 --> 00:50:41,240
Speaker 1: and seventies that didn't engage in this behavior is shorter

838
00:50:41,280 --> 00:50:44,320
Speaker 1: than the ones that did. I usually, I joke quote

839
00:50:44,360 --> 00:50:46,879
Speaker 1: unquote because I think that's the only way to deal

840
00:50:46,880 --> 00:50:49,440
Speaker 1: with with some of this sometimes is I'm like, finding

841
00:50:49,440 --> 00:50:52,440
Speaker 1: a rock star that didn't sleep with children is a

842
00:50:52,520 --> 00:50:56,040
Speaker 1: lesson futility because I think, I mean, I know, like

843
00:50:56,040 --> 00:50:59,080
Speaker 1: like you know, I've read rock star biographies. I love

844
00:50:59,160 --> 00:51:01,840
Speaker 1: the who you know. I'm like Roger Daughtry writes in

845
00:51:01,920 --> 00:51:05,319
Speaker 1: his autobiography that like he had illegitimate children, but you

846
00:51:05,320 --> 00:51:07,720
Speaker 1: don't need to know about like he was. He claims

847
00:51:07,760 --> 00:51:10,440
Speaker 1: he wasn't doing anything terrible, you know, whereas as we

848
00:51:10,560 --> 00:51:13,479
Speaker 1: know like Pete Townsend, you know, it was definitely dating

849
00:51:13,560 --> 00:51:16,160
Speaker 1: underach girls. So it's it's one of those things where

850
00:51:16,160 --> 00:51:19,839
Speaker 1: you're like, how do we reconcile with what we historically

851
00:51:19,840 --> 00:51:22,200
Speaker 1: know and in which now I think, even within the

852
00:51:22,280 --> 00:51:25,360
Speaker 1: last few years with me too, is far more open

853
00:51:25,600 --> 00:51:29,680
Speaker 1: about like actually know this was inappropriate and some of

854
00:51:29,719 --> 00:51:32,640
Speaker 1: these these you know, women that were groupies in that

855
00:51:32,680 --> 00:51:34,520
Speaker 1: era have had to go back and do their own

856
00:51:34,600 --> 00:51:37,680
Speaker 1: kind of reflection on like, yeah, did I get taken

857
00:51:37,680 --> 00:51:42,320
Speaker 1: advantage of? And it's hard to enjoy the movie without knowing.

858
00:51:42,440 --> 00:51:45,719
Speaker 1: I mean, I compartmentalize because as a woman, as a

859
00:51:45,719 --> 00:51:48,440
Speaker 1: disabled woman, like I have to compartmentalize in order to

860
00:51:48,520 --> 00:51:51,480
Speaker 1: enjoy anything, because nothing is perfect. But they talk about

861
00:51:51,520 --> 00:51:55,120
Speaker 1: this often on the podcast, and I mean, like you

862
00:51:55,160 --> 00:51:57,600
Speaker 1: have to in order to enjoy this movie, because you're like,

863
00:51:58,920 --> 00:52:03,520
Speaker 1: I don't really know if that's appropriator, right, because what's

864
00:52:03,560 --> 00:52:06,960
Speaker 1: happening in the movie, there's certainly a historical precedent for

865
00:52:07,000 --> 00:52:10,200
Speaker 1: all of this behavior, and it was very permissible back

866
00:52:10,239 --> 00:52:13,040
Speaker 1: then in the in this era, and even in two

867
00:52:13,080 --> 00:52:15,719
Speaker 1: thousand when this movie came out, it was still far

868
00:52:15,800 --> 00:52:20,160
Speaker 1: more permissible by our rape culture than it is today

869
00:52:20,239 --> 00:52:24,360
Speaker 1: in twenty twenty three. So it's very tricky too. My

870
00:52:24,480 --> 00:52:30,000
Speaker 1: thing is like it's I have no issue with even like, like,

871
00:52:30,040 --> 00:52:32,840
Speaker 1: I mean, the character descriptions I think are very obviously

872
00:52:32,880 --> 00:52:36,759
Speaker 1: written by a man, But I mean the fact that

873
00:52:36,840 --> 00:52:39,479
Speaker 1: these characters are the age that they are, I feel

874
00:52:39,480 --> 00:52:42,279
Speaker 1: like that's just pretty historically accurate. I feel like it

875
00:52:42,320 --> 00:52:45,080
Speaker 1: would be almost dishonest to be like, and these women

876
00:52:45,120 --> 00:52:49,040
Speaker 1: were twenty seven and like, you know, taking time off

877
00:52:49,120 --> 00:52:51,600
Speaker 1: from their job at the bank or whatever fun you know,

878
00:52:51,800 --> 00:52:54,640
Speaker 1: Like it is like this was what historically happened, and

879
00:52:54,680 --> 00:52:58,200
Speaker 1: it's something that I agree Christmas has been really uncomfortable

880
00:52:58,239 --> 00:53:02,720
Speaker 1: and fascinating to watch the people involved have to grapple

881
00:53:02,880 --> 00:53:05,719
Speaker 1: or not grapple with that period of history. I think

882
00:53:05,719 --> 00:53:08,080
Speaker 1: that my problems with it just have to do it

883
00:53:08,160 --> 00:53:11,279
Speaker 1: the way that it's framed and told, and like it

884
00:53:11,360 --> 00:53:15,400
Speaker 1: just seems like I mean, in some ways and for

885
00:53:15,480 --> 00:53:18,360
Speaker 1: certain characters, Cameron Crowe is an excellent person to be

886
00:53:18,360 --> 00:53:21,760
Speaker 1: telling this story. He literally, to some extent was William,

887
00:53:22,000 --> 00:53:27,120
Speaker 1: but in other areas he's like deeply unqualified to like

888
00:53:27,160 --> 00:53:30,160
Speaker 1: I mean, and even in most of the issues with

889
00:53:30,200 --> 00:53:32,440
Speaker 1: this movie are not with what's happening. It's how it's

890
00:53:32,520 --> 00:53:36,160
Speaker 1: we're being told that it's happening, and the way that

891
00:53:36,440 --> 00:53:39,440
Speaker 1: it's you know, like glorified as like these are the

892
00:53:39,520 --> 00:53:43,640
Speaker 1: golden days, like this was the best that things ever were,

893
00:53:43,719 --> 00:53:50,040
Speaker 1: and there's it's just deeply uncritical of anything and is

894
00:53:50,239 --> 00:53:53,680
Speaker 1: so determined to kind of glorify certain aspects of this world,

895
00:53:53,719 --> 00:53:56,080
Speaker 1: not all of them, but most of but a lot

896
00:53:56,120 --> 00:53:58,640
Speaker 1: of them. There's the point at the end, towards the

897
00:53:58,680 --> 00:54:00,600
Speaker 1: end of the movie where they're talking about the new

898
00:54:00,719 --> 00:54:04,960
Speaker 1: types of groupies, right Sapphire brings out. You know, none

899
00:54:05,000 --> 00:54:07,439
Speaker 1: of them use birth control, and you know they don't

900
00:54:07,440 --> 00:54:09,680
Speaker 1: know what it's like to be a fan, you know,

901
00:54:09,760 --> 00:54:12,239
Speaker 1: until love a piece of music till it hurts. And

902
00:54:12,320 --> 00:54:16,040
Speaker 1: I think that that's this real critical distinction that Cameron

903
00:54:16,080 --> 00:54:21,000
Speaker 1: Crowe feels that these women are responsible for that they

904
00:54:21,040 --> 00:54:25,360
Speaker 1: are responsible. They are muses, right, they are these Tripsikorean

905
00:54:25,600 --> 00:54:29,439
Speaker 1: type of muses that have inspired the music. And they're

906
00:54:29,480 --> 00:54:31,520
Speaker 1: not here for the money. They're not here to get

907
00:54:31,560 --> 00:54:34,719
Speaker 1: pregnant and railroads, you into marriage or any of that.

908
00:54:34,840 --> 00:54:37,920
Speaker 1: You know, they're not here for anything other than the music.

909
00:54:38,360 --> 00:54:41,480
Speaker 1: But as we've seen a lot of rock stars, Will

910
00:54:41,840 --> 00:54:45,279
Speaker 1: Jeff says at one point, the chicks are great, and

911
00:54:45,360 --> 00:54:49,160
Speaker 1: so it's a little like ridiculous to be like, yeah,

912
00:54:49,200 --> 00:54:51,040
Speaker 1: it's kind of stupid for you to say that the

913
00:54:51,080 --> 00:54:54,400
Speaker 1: women are here for this altruistic like they're here to

914
00:54:54,480 --> 00:54:57,880
Speaker 1: inspire music and the dudes are are just here because

915
00:54:58,280 --> 00:55:00,560
Speaker 1: you know they're not. They don't see them just things

916
00:55:00,600 --> 00:55:03,960
Speaker 1: to have messed around with and get weighed. And really,

917
00:55:04,080 --> 00:55:07,640
Speaker 1: if we're talking about inspiring the music, I mean, sweet

918
00:55:07,680 --> 00:55:09,879
Speaker 1: Child of minds a great song, but would we does

919
00:55:09,920 --> 00:55:12,840
Speaker 1: anybody know the name of the girl that inspired it? No?

920
00:55:13,200 --> 00:55:15,640
Speaker 1: You know, like, and I think so it is a

921
00:55:15,640 --> 00:55:19,720
Speaker 1: little disingenuous to be like, these these women are here,

922
00:55:19,920 --> 00:55:23,560
Speaker 1: these young girls are here, you know, purely because they

923
00:55:23,600 --> 00:55:26,640
Speaker 1: don't want to And Penny Laye makes that distinction at

924
00:55:26,640 --> 00:55:30,000
Speaker 1: several times. You know, groupies want to be near someone famous.

925
00:55:30,080 --> 00:55:35,239
Speaker 1: They're not here for anything else. There's a hierarchy, right,

926
00:55:35,360 --> 00:55:37,560
Speaker 1: I'm also sorry. I always think of that. I also

927
00:55:37,560 --> 00:55:40,400
Speaker 1: think of the song My Sharona every time that this

928
00:55:40,600 --> 00:55:43,640
Speaker 1: like thing comes up, like there's so many songs and

929
00:55:43,680 --> 00:55:46,040
Speaker 1: you're totally right, Christmas. It's like that you never know

930
00:55:46,160 --> 00:55:48,680
Speaker 1: who it actually is, very very rarely. There's a few

931
00:55:48,680 --> 00:55:50,719
Speaker 1: songs that you're like, oh, that's about yo, go on

932
00:55:50,880 --> 00:55:54,080
Speaker 1: now and h and John Lennon, you know, no notes

933
00:55:54,120 --> 00:55:57,600
Speaker 1: about him? Great guy. Well there's that scene where I

934
00:55:57,680 --> 00:56:00,759
Speaker 1: don't remember which character it is now, but she's introducing

935
00:56:00,960 --> 00:56:03,399
Speaker 1: William two Penny Lane and being like, you haven't heard

936
00:56:03,440 --> 00:56:06,520
Speaker 1: of Penny Lane. She is like one of the founders

937
00:56:06,560 --> 00:56:10,399
Speaker 1: of the band Aids, and her whole ethos is, I'm

938
00:56:10,440 --> 00:56:13,399
Speaker 1: tired of letting my body be sexually exploited by these

939
00:56:13,520 --> 00:56:16,879
Speaker 1: rock stars. You know, we're here for the music, we're

940
00:56:16,920 --> 00:56:20,400
Speaker 1: here simply because we are fans of the music. So

941
00:56:20,440 --> 00:56:24,080
Speaker 1: it's almost it seems as though Penny and the other

942
00:56:24,120 --> 00:56:27,360
Speaker 1: band Aids they're again their ethos is like we're taking

943
00:56:27,360 --> 00:56:31,760
Speaker 1: the power back for ourselves, like well, but they still

944
00:56:31,880 --> 00:56:34,959
Speaker 1: end up being exploited by these men and in many

945
00:56:34,960 --> 00:56:38,760
Speaker 1: cases like statutory rape is happening right here, and remember

946
00:56:38,840 --> 00:56:42,560
Speaker 1: nobody's Williams not interested in writing about their struggle Like

947
00:56:42,640 --> 00:56:46,040
Speaker 1: that's I think that's that's an actually more interesting story

948
00:56:46,080 --> 00:56:49,080
Speaker 1: than local band makes good. Like let's talk about these

949
00:56:49,120 --> 00:56:53,320
Speaker 1: young girls that are supposedly inspiring the music or you.

950
00:56:53,480 --> 00:56:56,279
Speaker 1: And it's almost like this we saw in the two

951
00:56:56,320 --> 00:56:58,960
Speaker 1: thousands up until maybe about like what is it like

952
00:56:59,000 --> 00:57:02,120
Speaker 1: twenty fifteen. This this kind of like reverse feminism, which

953
00:57:02,160 --> 00:57:05,719
Speaker 1: is which was women taking things that we've historically like

954
00:57:05,840 --> 00:57:08,439
Speaker 1: as a response to, like second wave feminism and kind

955
00:57:08,440 --> 00:57:12,120
Speaker 1: of like recontextualing it as empowering. Yet the girl Boss era,

956
00:57:12,320 --> 00:57:17,240
Speaker 1: for example, you know, and relationships, the cougar thing, you know, like, oh,

957
00:57:17,280 --> 00:57:19,120
Speaker 1: it's okay because like men have been doing it, so

958
00:57:19,120 --> 00:57:21,720
Speaker 1: we're gonna do it, um right, And I feel like

959
00:57:21,760 --> 00:57:24,400
Speaker 1: they're this is kind of this is part of that. Like,

960
00:57:24,800 --> 00:57:27,400
Speaker 1: and if you read Pamela des Bars and any other

961
00:57:27,480 --> 00:57:29,640
Speaker 1: groupie of the seventies, like they'll say that, yeah, they

962
00:57:29,640 --> 00:57:32,640
Speaker 1: thought that they were empowered and that they were doing

963
00:57:32,720 --> 00:57:36,000
Speaker 1: something that was like saying screw you to the counterculture.

964
00:57:36,320 --> 00:57:38,000
Speaker 1: But it's one thing to hear that, and then it's

965
00:57:38,040 --> 00:57:39,800
Speaker 1: another to read out of the same breath. You know,

966
00:57:39,840 --> 00:57:42,520
Speaker 1: Pamela das Bars talking about like locking herself in a

967
00:57:42,640 --> 00:57:46,280
Speaker 1: bathroom because a rock star was trying to have sex

968
00:57:46,280 --> 00:57:48,440
Speaker 1: with her and she had told him no, Yeah, so

969
00:57:48,680 --> 00:57:51,160
Speaker 1: you're kind of like like Crow, I think sees this

970
00:57:51,200 --> 00:57:55,080
Speaker 1: as this this empowerment thing. But even the women of

971
00:57:55,080 --> 00:57:57,479
Speaker 1: the two thousands into the twenty tens that we're doing

972
00:57:57,520 --> 00:58:00,280
Speaker 1: this now, like looking back at this, were like, Yeah,

973
00:58:00,280 --> 00:58:03,040
Speaker 1: that actually wasn't as empowering as they thought they were.

974
00:58:03,360 --> 00:58:06,120
Speaker 1: You know, it's a forty day but it's true, which

975
00:58:06,160 --> 00:58:08,000
Speaker 1: again is like he's just I just don't think that

976
00:58:08,040 --> 00:58:11,320
Speaker 1: he as a writer is kind of able to or

977
00:58:11,400 --> 00:58:16,160
Speaker 1: qualified to give you the appropriate context, Like because even

978
00:58:16,200 --> 00:58:18,320
Speaker 1: if you're watching this in two thousand as a young person,

979
00:58:18,640 --> 00:58:20,080
Speaker 1: like it would have I think it would have been

980
00:58:20,080 --> 00:58:24,080
Speaker 1: really helpful to in any way in the story shoehorn

981
00:58:24,120 --> 00:58:27,439
Speaker 1: in like where is second wave feminism at this point?

982
00:58:27,520 --> 00:58:31,280
Speaker 1: Like there are certain things about this story that they

983
00:58:31,520 --> 00:58:33,400
Speaker 1: go out of their way to give you the historical

984
00:58:33,440 --> 00:58:36,000
Speaker 1: contexts you need, and then other areas where you just

985
00:58:36,120 --> 00:58:39,720
Speaker 1: kind of don't know, because like I didn't understand the

986
00:58:39,760 --> 00:58:41,880
Speaker 1: first time that I saw this movie. You know, I

987
00:58:41,920 --> 00:58:44,280
Speaker 1: just was like, Oh, this looks really fucking cool. But

988
00:58:44,400 --> 00:58:47,800
Speaker 1: how you know, like with the ethos of second wave feminism,

989
00:58:47,960 --> 00:58:50,920
Speaker 1: like they are still very much under the thumb of patriarchy,

990
00:58:51,040 --> 00:58:54,640
Speaker 1: like they're still very beholden to the interests of men.

991
00:58:55,320 --> 00:58:58,360
Speaker 1: The subversion, or the way that the subversion was often

992
00:58:58,400 --> 00:59:00,440
Speaker 1: seen is that like, I don't have to be a

993
00:59:00,480 --> 00:59:03,960
Speaker 1: fucking housewife. I'm not like demand, Like it's not demanded

994
00:59:04,000 --> 00:59:07,520
Speaker 1: that I am home and being a wife. And that

995
00:59:07,720 --> 00:59:10,000
Speaker 1: is kind of where the freedom and the catharsiss is

996
00:59:10,040 --> 00:59:12,840
Speaker 1: like some level of choice, but even when you're able

997
00:59:12,880 --> 00:59:16,800
Speaker 1: to make that choice, you're still treated like shit, which

998
00:59:16,840 --> 00:59:19,440
Speaker 1: I feel like it is illustrated in Penny Lane and

999
00:59:19,600 --> 00:59:23,040
Speaker 1: the Band Aids to some extent, but it just like,

1000
00:59:23,080 --> 00:59:26,080
Speaker 1: I don't know, it doesn't go far enough for me,

1001
00:59:26,120 --> 00:59:28,600
Speaker 1: and I think it makes you wonder you look at

1002
00:59:28,640 --> 00:59:31,720
Speaker 1: like the relationship with Anita. Anita is a great example

1003
00:59:31,720 --> 00:59:33,760
Speaker 1: of exactly what you're saying, Like she's a woman that

1004
00:59:33,840 --> 00:59:36,440
Speaker 1: doesn't want to be a housewife. From what we know

1005
00:59:36,520 --> 00:59:39,280
Speaker 1: about her, she wants to go see the world. She

1006
00:59:39,360 --> 00:59:42,880
Speaker 1: becomes a steward is and like seems to be having

1007
00:59:42,920 --> 00:59:46,000
Speaker 1: a real good life. You know, she's happy about that,

1008
00:59:46,960 --> 00:59:49,600
Speaker 1: and yet the movie still doesn't really I don't know

1009
00:59:49,640 --> 00:59:53,000
Speaker 1: if it makes an opinion about how it feels about Anita,

1010
00:59:53,280 --> 00:59:56,800
Speaker 1: because she clearly has no relationship with her mother. It's

1011
00:59:56,840 --> 00:59:59,880
Speaker 1: unclear what her mother expected of her to do, you know,

1012
01:00:00,120 --> 01:00:03,840
Speaker 1: because because she seems fine with when William follows his bliss,

1013
01:00:03,920 --> 01:00:05,840
Speaker 1: but when Anita tries to do it, it's like, I

1014
01:00:05,880 --> 01:00:08,480
Speaker 1: feel like there's so much internalized misogyny going on with

1015
01:00:08,520 --> 01:00:11,080
Speaker 1: the mom that I would have been cool to see more.

1016
01:00:11,480 --> 01:00:13,720
Speaker 1: Elaine's whole thing is like, oh, this is a hobby, right,

1017
01:00:13,760 --> 01:00:15,720
Speaker 1: William's gonna give this up at some point and go

1018
01:00:15,800 --> 01:00:19,520
Speaker 1: become a lawyer. And and even though she's opposed to it,

1019
01:00:19,640 --> 01:00:22,000
Speaker 1: she still allows it to happen. There's no like, don't

1020
01:00:22,000 --> 01:00:24,240
Speaker 1: come back if you can't do this. I mean, the

1021
01:00:24,320 --> 01:00:27,280
Speaker 1: kid misses his high school graduation and she's like upset,

1022
01:00:27,800 --> 01:00:31,080
Speaker 1: but we don't see any like severe pushback. But it's

1023
01:00:31,160 --> 01:00:33,600
Speaker 1: unclear what she wants from her other daughter. You know.

1024
01:00:33,640 --> 01:00:35,080
Speaker 1: She says to her at one point in like this

1025
01:00:35,120 --> 01:00:38,360
Speaker 1: really hurtful moment that you know, when she asked what

1026
01:00:38,760 --> 01:00:41,760
Speaker 1: their dad thought of her, and Elaine says, you are

1027
01:00:41,840 --> 01:00:45,320
Speaker 1: rebellious and ungrateful of my love. Yeah, it's not really

1028
01:00:45,360 --> 01:00:49,480
Speaker 1: clear what she expects her child to do, and she

1029
01:00:49,600 --> 01:00:51,960
Speaker 1: seems to be doing okay. If anything. It seems more

1030
01:00:51,960 --> 01:00:55,680
Speaker 1: empowering than Penny Elaine. And yet we still have to

1031
01:00:55,680 --> 01:00:58,400
Speaker 1: send Anita back home to reunite with the mom, and

1032
01:00:58,440 --> 01:01:02,040
Speaker 1: it's really unclear she kind of stay home? Is she going?

1033
01:01:02,320 --> 01:01:05,600
Speaker 1: Did she quit her job? Yeah? What is the deal here?

1034
01:01:05,640 --> 01:01:08,800
Speaker 1: Because she's actually living this empowered life that the movie

1035
01:01:08,840 --> 01:01:12,400
Speaker 1: seems to be saying that the band Aids are living, right,

1036
01:01:12,560 --> 01:01:15,360
Speaker 1: and she and we explicitly know her age. We know

1037
01:01:15,440 --> 01:01:17,440
Speaker 1: that she is eighteen when she leaves home, and so

1038
01:01:17,480 --> 01:01:19,520
Speaker 1: it's like, well, she's on her own, she's doing her

1039
01:01:19,520 --> 01:01:22,480
Speaker 1: own thing. And and by the time the movie jumps

1040
01:01:22,520 --> 01:01:26,160
Speaker 1: she's eighteen when when he's little right, and then right

1041
01:01:26,480 --> 01:01:29,640
Speaker 1: the movie jumps forward to like him, missus sears in

1042
01:01:29,720 --> 01:01:33,320
Speaker 1: high school. So yeah, she's she's easily like early mid twenties,

1043
01:01:33,400 --> 01:01:36,880
Speaker 1: so definitely old enough to make decisions and like start

1044
01:01:36,920 --> 01:01:42,520
Speaker 1: paying taxes and whatnot. So I think that characterization and

1045
01:01:42,600 --> 01:01:45,560
Speaker 1: just like the framing of all of that is indicative

1046
01:01:45,640 --> 01:01:48,440
Speaker 1: of the big issue with this movie, which is that

1047
01:01:49,440 --> 01:01:51,800
Speaker 1: there is a far more interesting story to be told

1048
01:01:51,840 --> 01:01:55,120
Speaker 1: about these characters. Like you said, Kristen, as far as

1049
01:01:55,440 --> 01:01:59,000
Speaker 1: the way that these teen girls are having to kind

1050
01:01:59,000 --> 01:02:02,400
Speaker 1: of like reframe or thinking of like, oh, well, I'm

1051
01:02:02,440 --> 01:02:06,720
Speaker 1: not being abused if I don't view what's happening to

1052
01:02:06,760 --> 01:02:09,080
Speaker 1: me as abuse, Like if I am again like kind

1053
01:02:09,080 --> 01:02:11,520
Speaker 1: of taking the power back and saying like, yeah, the

1054
01:02:11,560 --> 01:02:14,640
Speaker 1: same thing still happening, but if I approach it differently

1055
01:02:14,680 --> 01:02:19,000
Speaker 1: in my mind, then then it's fine. I'm I'm consenting

1056
01:02:19,040 --> 01:02:22,040
Speaker 1: to this actually, which young people are kind of put

1057
01:02:22,080 --> 01:02:24,840
Speaker 1: in a position to do all the time. Like every

1058
01:02:24,880 --> 01:02:28,480
Speaker 1: generation has those situations. I feel like it's just the

1059
01:02:28,520 --> 01:02:32,040
Speaker 1: way that Crowe frames the Rockers, Like he frames them

1060
01:02:32,200 --> 01:02:34,880
Speaker 1: as assholes for sure, and he frames them as like

1061
01:02:35,280 --> 01:02:38,680
Speaker 1: vapid and too into their own success, but he does

1062
01:02:38,720 --> 01:02:41,280
Speaker 1: that in a way that still makes them extremely redeemable

1063
01:02:41,680 --> 01:02:44,280
Speaker 1: and clearly wants you to still love them by the

1064
01:02:44,360 --> 01:02:46,600
Speaker 1: end of the movie and still be rooting for their success.

1065
01:02:47,040 --> 01:02:49,040
Speaker 1: Is just like, well, then he's he's coming at it

1066
01:02:49,120 --> 01:02:52,160
Speaker 1: like in a way that is just like not I

1067
01:02:52,200 --> 01:02:55,720
Speaker 1: don't know, like it just I always and maybe if

1068
01:02:55,760 --> 01:02:57,840
Speaker 1: I watch the extended cut I would feel different, but

1069
01:02:57,880 --> 01:03:02,560
Speaker 1: I am. I just I'm like I don't care about Russell.

1070
01:03:02,640 --> 01:03:05,280
Speaker 1: I don't care about him. I'm like, who gives a

1071
01:03:05,320 --> 01:03:07,800
Speaker 1: shit if this guy's successful? And at the end when like,

1072
01:03:08,200 --> 01:03:10,160
Speaker 1: you know, he's like, oh, I think Penny wanted you

1073
01:03:10,200 --> 01:03:12,760
Speaker 1: and me together. I'm like, why would william even want

1074
01:03:12,760 --> 01:03:15,160
Speaker 1: to talk to you? You're the fucking worst. I don't

1075
01:03:15,240 --> 01:03:18,040
Speaker 1: understand why Williams still interested in you after all this time,

1076
01:03:18,280 --> 01:03:20,000
Speaker 1: christ And I think you're totally right. If he was

1077
01:03:20,040 --> 01:03:22,440
Speaker 1: a really good journalist, he would have realized that Russell's

1078
01:03:22,480 --> 01:03:25,120
Speaker 1: not the story or he if anything, he's the villain

1079
01:03:25,160 --> 01:03:26,880
Speaker 1: of the story. If anything, he would have written a

1080
01:03:26,880 --> 01:03:29,880
Speaker 1: story that like, Snowwater is great, but Russell Hammond's a dick,

1081
01:03:30,080 --> 01:03:32,720
Speaker 1: a piece of shit. Yeah, like yeah, like their music

1082
01:03:32,800 --> 01:03:36,440
Speaker 1: might be good, but them as people are bad. I mean,

1083
01:03:36,480 --> 01:03:38,720
Speaker 1: and yeah, I mean I know that like the movie

1084
01:03:39,000 --> 01:03:43,560
Speaker 1: The Snowwater is supposedly loosely based on Robert Plant and

1085
01:03:43,640 --> 01:03:47,880
Speaker 1: Jimmy Page from from Led Zeppelin, which yeah, I'm like, okay,

1086
01:03:47,960 --> 01:03:49,640
Speaker 1: if that was the case, trust me, this would be

1087
01:03:49,680 --> 01:03:51,920
Speaker 1: way more fucked up of a movie, because if you've

1088
01:03:51,920 --> 01:03:54,800
Speaker 1: read even an ounce of what Zeppelin did during their heyday,

1089
01:03:54,880 --> 01:03:59,600
Speaker 1: like they committed practically committed crimes. Oh so, but I

1090
01:03:59,640 --> 01:04:01,320
Speaker 1: always I tell people all the time, I think I

1091
01:04:01,360 --> 01:04:03,160
Speaker 1: put this on Twitter, like a year or two ago,

1092
01:04:04,160 --> 01:04:06,520
Speaker 1: who was who is your favorite trash boyfriend? And why

1093
01:04:06,600 --> 01:04:09,840
Speaker 1: is mine? Russell Hammond um and that like he is

1094
01:04:09,920 --> 01:04:14,000
Speaker 1: he is essentially like the Troy Dwyer of this movie,

1095
01:04:14,560 --> 01:04:17,680
Speaker 1: you know, but the Ethan Hawk in the sense that, like,

1096
01:04:18,000 --> 01:04:21,640
Speaker 1: I know, he's a horrid human being. But maybe it's

1097
01:04:21,680 --> 01:04:25,640
Speaker 1: the hair. Maybe it's like the seventies aesthetic. There's just

1098
01:04:25,720 --> 01:04:30,400
Speaker 1: something where you're like, oh, I can't. I didn't. I know,

1099
01:04:30,480 --> 01:04:33,320
Speaker 1: it's terrible. I can't do him. I can't do him,

1100
01:04:33,480 --> 01:04:35,880
Speaker 1: And I wonder how much of this now? I mean,

1101
01:04:35,920 --> 01:04:38,800
Speaker 1: I have backstory to Mike's and my explanation for this

1102
01:04:38,840 --> 01:04:41,240
Speaker 1: because I think, again, as I said it up top,

1103
01:04:41,600 --> 01:04:43,880
Speaker 1: I had a billy crude up thing back in the

1104
01:04:43,960 --> 01:04:48,040
Speaker 1: day leading up to the whole like Claire Danes Mary

1105
01:04:48,120 --> 01:04:52,120
Speaker 1: Louis Parker triangle that happened, which again he's also part

1106
01:04:52,120 --> 01:04:54,840
Speaker 1: of the problem because he is just as problematic as

1107
01:04:54,880 --> 01:04:58,080
Speaker 1: the movie that he's in. Google that story if you

1108
01:04:58,240 --> 01:05:02,560
Speaker 1: want some juicy reading. But but I mean to watch

1109
01:05:02,600 --> 01:05:04,480
Speaker 1: them like this was kind of like his stock in

1110
01:05:04,600 --> 01:05:08,919
Speaker 1: trade is he played douchebags, like inventing the Abbots, which

1111
01:05:08,960 --> 01:05:12,280
Speaker 1: is another favorite of mine, Like he plays the same character,

1112
01:05:12,320 --> 01:05:15,000
Speaker 1: he's got better hair, h So I mean, I get it,

1113
01:05:15,080 --> 01:05:18,040
Speaker 1: and I wonder how much that plays into all of this,

1114
01:05:19,440 --> 01:05:21,480
Speaker 1: And I think conceiving him as kind of like a

1115
01:05:21,560 --> 01:05:26,320
Speaker 1: Robert plant esque like musical genius, but he's like a

1116
01:05:26,320 --> 01:05:29,640
Speaker 1: piece of shit. I hate it. I have no explanation

1117
01:05:29,680 --> 01:05:31,640
Speaker 1: for why I dug it then, I have no explanation

1118
01:05:31,680 --> 01:05:33,480
Speaker 1: for why I dig it now. But I think that

1119
01:05:33,600 --> 01:05:37,000
Speaker 1: like in the grand tradition of like all the trash

1120
01:05:37,040 --> 01:05:40,480
Speaker 1: boyfriends again going back to Ethan Hawk, in reality bites

1121
01:05:40,600 --> 01:05:44,440
Speaker 1: like there's just something where you're like, God, I maybe

1122
01:05:44,440 --> 01:05:46,560
Speaker 1: I want to feel like shit. Maybe I want somebody

1123
01:05:46,560 --> 01:05:50,320
Speaker 1: to treat me bad. It's a very masochistic relationship. The

1124
01:05:50,480 --> 01:05:55,760
Speaker 1: movie kind of explores this in certain conversations between William

1125
01:05:55,880 --> 01:05:59,040
Speaker 1: and Lester Bangs, where they're both like, we're not cool

1126
01:05:59,080 --> 01:06:00,600
Speaker 1: and we're never going to be the type of guy

1127
01:06:00,640 --> 01:06:04,560
Speaker 1: who's gonna like instantly get the girl quote unquote, because

1128
01:06:04,600 --> 01:06:07,240
Speaker 1: it's the rock stars who get the girl and who

1129
01:06:07,320 --> 01:06:10,200
Speaker 1: are perceived as so cool and who you know, are

1130
01:06:10,240 --> 01:06:15,000
Speaker 1: just like effortlessly like chicken magnets. It feels a little

1131
01:06:15,040 --> 01:06:18,680
Speaker 1: revenge of the nerds that that whole exchange where he's like,

1132
01:06:18,760 --> 01:06:21,439
Speaker 1: you know, like we're just we're smarter than them, Like

1133
01:06:21,480 --> 01:06:23,919
Speaker 1: we're we're playing the long game. And you're like, okay,

1134
01:06:23,960 --> 01:06:27,320
Speaker 1: so women are still objects to you, but you know

1135
01:06:27,360 --> 01:06:31,240
Speaker 1: you're just playing a longer game. Cool, right, So it's

1136
01:06:31,880 --> 01:06:35,960
Speaker 1: so the movie has some self awareness about like these dynamics,

1137
01:06:36,000 --> 01:06:40,520
Speaker 1: these these power dynamics as they relate to gender and

1138
01:06:40,760 --> 01:06:44,120
Speaker 1: like these age gaps and all this stuff. But for me,

1139
01:06:44,160 --> 01:06:46,600
Speaker 1: it goes back to what would be a more interesting

1140
01:06:46,640 --> 01:06:52,120
Speaker 1: story here, the mental gymnastics that a lot of girls

1141
01:06:52,240 --> 01:06:55,360
Speaker 1: and women have to do in a culture where they

1142
01:06:55,360 --> 01:06:59,120
Speaker 1: are so heavily oppressed and objectified, and you know, any

1143
01:06:59,200 --> 01:07:02,000
Speaker 1: marginalized person has to deal with this, like the mental

1144
01:07:02,040 --> 01:07:06,680
Speaker 1: gymnastics you kind of have to do just as a survival, right, technique,

1145
01:07:06,840 --> 01:07:10,040
Speaker 1: Like that would have been the more interesting thing to

1146
01:07:10,200 --> 01:07:13,120
Speaker 1: explore through the lens of like the Penny Land character

1147
01:07:13,160 --> 01:07:15,920
Speaker 1: and seeing things from her point of view, But instead

1148
01:07:15,960 --> 01:07:18,120
Speaker 1: we're seeing the story from the point of view of

1149
01:07:18,160 --> 01:07:22,400
Speaker 1: this teenage boy who doesn't understand her, who doesn't understand her,

1150
01:07:22,440 --> 01:07:25,440
Speaker 1: who's in love with her, quote unquote, but he's can't

1151
01:07:25,480 --> 01:07:27,560
Speaker 1: be because he doesn't know her, Like he's in love

1152
01:07:27,600 --> 01:07:30,920
Speaker 1: with the right, with the persona she's crafted exactly. I

1153
01:07:31,000 --> 01:07:34,520
Speaker 1: feel like Sophia Coppola did this a lot better, you

1154
01:07:34,560 --> 01:07:38,480
Speaker 1: know what, like the year before with the version of Suicience,

1155
01:07:38,640 --> 01:07:42,040
Speaker 1: which which is very much about like a group of

1156
01:07:42,120 --> 01:07:45,560
Speaker 1: boys that think that they know these manic pixie dream girls,

1157
01:07:45,560 --> 01:07:48,520
Speaker 1: and Sofia Coppola's like, slow your role, you actually know

1158
01:07:48,600 --> 01:07:52,600
Speaker 1: shit and you don't know these people, and you know,

1159
01:07:53,400 --> 01:07:57,160
Speaker 1: and the source materials very similar to that. So it's doable.

1160
01:07:57,400 --> 01:08:01,040
Speaker 1: It's doable if you care. And fortunately, I mean I

1161
01:08:01,080 --> 01:08:03,720
Speaker 1: think again this was this was Cameron Crow and his

1162
01:08:03,840 --> 01:08:07,040
Speaker 1: too Big to Fail era, and you know, we weren't.

1163
01:08:07,080 --> 01:08:09,480
Speaker 1: We weren't asking those questions. We were just like wrapped

1164
01:08:09,600 --> 01:08:13,840
Speaker 1: up in the seventies aesthetic man. And I think Boogie Knights,

1165
01:08:13,920 --> 01:08:16,680
Speaker 1: like you mentioned, you know, really did play into this

1166
01:08:16,720 --> 01:08:19,240
Speaker 1: as well, because what is it the thirty year gap

1167
01:08:19,520 --> 01:08:22,800
Speaker 1: that we take to nostalgize stuff, you know, so like

1168
01:08:22,840 --> 01:08:26,240
Speaker 1: the nineties into the two thousands, was this seventies heyday,

1169
01:08:26,800 --> 01:08:29,519
Speaker 1: which honestly, I would love for us to go back

1170
01:08:29,560 --> 01:08:32,120
Speaker 1: and look at now because I feel like we still

1171
01:08:32,160 --> 01:08:35,400
Speaker 1: have never reconciled. We just went straight to letting dudes

1172
01:08:35,439 --> 01:08:38,400
Speaker 1: make movies about how great the eighties were, but we

1173
01:08:38,520 --> 01:08:42,599
Speaker 1: never really looked at or criticized the nineteen seventies, which

1174
01:08:42,640 --> 01:08:46,120
Speaker 1: is probably one of the most fraught decades just from

1175
01:08:46,120 --> 01:08:50,000
Speaker 1: a gender perspective, and gender influenced everything. I mean, it

1176
01:08:50,080 --> 01:08:53,439
Speaker 1: even influenced the music and in so many ways. So

1177
01:08:53,720 --> 01:08:57,759
Speaker 1: you know, I would love a nineteen seventies groupie story

1178
01:08:58,120 --> 01:09:01,360
Speaker 1: from like a feminine, like a female director script that

1179
01:09:01,439 --> 01:09:04,920
Speaker 1: it's just like, actually, how do you reconcile with the

1180
01:09:04,920 --> 01:09:08,439
Speaker 1: fact that you're like a teenage girl and you're hanging

1181
01:09:08,439 --> 01:09:12,000
Speaker 1: out with like again Louren Scafaria, just like make Diary

1182
01:09:12,000 --> 01:09:15,720
Speaker 1: of a Teenage Girl again, but like groupy addition, Yeah,

1183
01:09:15,760 --> 01:09:17,400
Speaker 1: I would, I mean I really would love to see.

1184
01:09:17,439 --> 01:09:19,920
Speaker 1: And also I would love to see a piece about

1185
01:09:19,960 --> 01:09:24,280
Speaker 1: like a woman now who was who was a teenager

1186
01:09:24,320 --> 01:09:28,080
Speaker 1: then having to reconcile it and like getting into arguments

1187
01:09:28,120 --> 01:09:31,920
Speaker 1: with her daughter or something about like how because that's

1188
01:09:31,960 --> 01:09:35,760
Speaker 1: like it is like a fascinating, difficult position that I

1189
01:09:35,840 --> 01:09:38,240
Speaker 1: don't envy anyone to have to be in, is to

1190
01:09:38,360 --> 01:09:44,000
Speaker 1: have to feel in conflict with modern feminists because you

1191
01:09:44,040 --> 01:09:46,719
Speaker 1: didn't have a twenty twenty three brain in nineteen seventy

1192
01:09:46,720 --> 01:09:50,360
Speaker 1: two and having to process that with a modern lens,

1193
01:09:50,840 --> 01:09:53,320
Speaker 1: a past middle age and figure out, well, how do

1194
01:09:53,360 --> 01:09:56,599
Speaker 1: I feel about that, and like challenging how you It's

1195
01:09:56,640 --> 01:09:59,960
Speaker 1: like challenging sort of everything, you know, which I think

1196
01:10:00,560 --> 01:10:02,200
Speaker 1: I don't know. I've talked with my mom a lot

1197
01:10:02,280 --> 01:10:05,519
Speaker 1: about that too, because I think and this movie again

1198
01:10:05,800 --> 01:10:09,160
Speaker 1: almost sort of I think, touches on it a little

1199
01:10:09,439 --> 01:10:13,080
Speaker 1: with Elaine and Anita of how a parent, in this

1200
01:10:13,120 --> 01:10:17,599
Speaker 1: case a mother specifically's own you know, internalized misogyny can

1201
01:10:17,640 --> 01:10:21,639
Speaker 1: be projected back onto their own kid in a way

1202
01:10:21,760 --> 01:10:24,479
Speaker 1: that diminishes them and makes them feel like shit. And

1203
01:10:25,120 --> 01:10:27,599
Speaker 1: it's like, well, yeah, if you don't, if you're not

1204
01:10:27,640 --> 01:10:30,640
Speaker 1: able to for whatever reason, process your own experience and

1205
01:10:30,640 --> 01:10:32,280
Speaker 1: figure out how you feel about it, it's going to

1206
01:10:32,360 --> 01:10:36,120
Speaker 1: turn into like this inadvertent weapon that can like hurt

1207
01:10:36,160 --> 01:10:38,760
Speaker 1: people you don't want to hurt. And I don't know.

1208
01:10:38,840 --> 01:10:42,160
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm excited that I ordered Pamelad as far

1209
01:10:42,160 --> 01:10:44,000
Speaker 1: as book because I really want to read it now.

1210
01:10:44,880 --> 01:10:47,719
Speaker 1: And there was a good interview with her in Vulture

1211
01:10:48,320 --> 01:10:51,760
Speaker 1: back in twenty twenty just talking about this with a

1212
01:10:51,960 --> 01:10:55,439
Speaker 1: post me to sort of focus on how she sort

1213
01:10:55,479 --> 01:10:57,559
Speaker 1: of views this character because there were a lot of

1214
01:10:58,000 --> 01:11:01,599
Speaker 1: Peter's I think three different women that Ameron Crowe has

1215
01:11:01,680 --> 01:11:06,920
Speaker 1: like alluded to. There's Penny Lane, Trumbull, Baby Bull, and

1216
01:11:07,479 --> 01:11:13,640
Speaker 1: Pamela Dispars. Penny Lane Trumbull also fascinating person, and I

1217
01:11:13,680 --> 01:11:17,240
Speaker 1: think what was cool about her was that she later

1218
01:11:17,280 --> 01:11:19,719
Speaker 1: made a band that was like made up of other

1219
01:11:19,760 --> 01:11:22,600
Speaker 1: groupies and they started making their own music, which is

1220
01:11:22,600 --> 01:11:25,840
Speaker 1: another thing of like access, Like that's a way to

1221
01:11:25,960 --> 01:11:28,080
Speaker 1: gain access to a world you may not have had

1222
01:11:28,080 --> 01:11:31,599
Speaker 1: access to otherwise that was not as welcoming to women.

1223
01:11:31,680 --> 01:11:35,720
Speaker 1: But anyways, Pamela Diaspars, she says a bunch of things.

1224
01:11:35,760 --> 01:11:41,400
Speaker 1: I mean, she she's particularly bothered by the Penny Lane

1225
01:11:41,560 --> 01:11:44,720
Speaker 1: overdose scene, not for the same reasons I'm sure we're

1226
01:11:44,760 --> 01:11:48,160
Speaker 1: about to talk about, but because of so she says this.

1227
01:11:48,360 --> 01:11:51,240
Speaker 1: She says that that scene where Penny Lane sees that

1228
01:11:51,360 --> 01:11:55,400
Speaker 1: Russell is with his girlfriend and then seems to attempt

1229
01:11:55,479 --> 01:11:59,360
Speaker 1: to or inadvertently overdoses. She says that that's quote horribly

1230
01:11:59,400 --> 01:12:02,840
Speaker 1: misogynists to look at what a groupie muse is. That

1231
01:12:02,880 --> 01:12:05,960
Speaker 1: made me so angry. This character, the groupie like she's portrayed,

1232
01:12:06,080 --> 01:12:08,439
Speaker 1: is pathetic. I knew all the main groupies in a

1233
01:12:08,439 --> 01:12:11,040
Speaker 1: heyday of group edom, none of them would have done that.

1234
01:12:11,120 --> 01:12:13,479
Speaker 1: There was always someone else coming to town that really

1235
01:12:13,479 --> 01:12:16,880
Speaker 1: turned me off. No actual music loving goddess groupie would

1236
01:12:16,880 --> 01:12:19,000
Speaker 1: do such a thing unquote. So I think she thought that,

1237
01:12:19,040 --> 01:12:23,040
Speaker 1: you know, Cameron Crowe is being melodramatic and diminishing a

1238
01:12:23,160 --> 01:12:26,960
Speaker 1: character that was very much based on her. And then

1239
01:12:27,000 --> 01:12:29,160
Speaker 1: the other thing that she said that I was like, Oh, yeah,

1240
01:12:29,200 --> 01:12:33,880
Speaker 1: they're like, Cameron Crowe hired a number of consultants for

1241
01:12:33,960 --> 01:12:36,800
Speaker 1: this movie because obviously he's like well connected in this

1242
01:12:37,240 --> 01:12:41,240
Speaker 1: period of history. Peter Frampton was a consultant on this movie. Yes,

1243
01:12:41,479 --> 01:12:44,639
Speaker 1: And I guess that Pamela dispars because she didn't meet

1244
01:12:44,880 --> 01:12:46,880
Speaker 1: Cameron Crowe when he was a fifteen year old writer,

1245
01:12:47,400 --> 01:12:49,439
Speaker 1: and she did see the movie, and she did have

1246
01:12:50,040 --> 01:12:52,680
Speaker 1: notes about it. She's not completely dismissive of it, but

1247
01:12:52,720 --> 01:12:55,000
Speaker 1: she's there's a lot of things she's kind of like

1248
01:12:55,240 --> 01:12:57,720
Speaker 1: what the fuck about. One of them was that she

1249
01:12:57,800 --> 01:13:01,680
Speaker 1: wasn't brought on as a consultant, And that makes a

1250
01:13:01,680 --> 01:13:03,719
Speaker 1: ton of fucking sense, Like, if you've got a Peter

1251
01:13:03,840 --> 01:13:07,720
Speaker 1: Frampton consultant budget, you've got a Pamela dispar As consultant

1252
01:13:07,720 --> 01:13:10,559
Speaker 1: budget and like your Cameron Crowe in two thousand, fucking

1253
01:13:10,640 --> 01:13:13,080
Speaker 1: hire her. And I bet that this the material would

1254
01:13:13,080 --> 01:13:15,880
Speaker 1: have been elevated. And I don't think Peter Frampton would

1255
01:13:15,880 --> 01:13:18,040
Speaker 1: have been giving a lot of great insider Like when

1256
01:13:18,040 --> 01:13:20,560
Speaker 1: you talk about top tier hedonistic rock stars at the

1257
01:13:20,600 --> 01:13:24,320
Speaker 1: seventies that had like groupies that were probably on that level,

1258
01:13:24,360 --> 01:13:28,679
Speaker 1: I'm not thinking Frampton comes alive. Okay, it is interesting

1259
01:13:28,720 --> 01:13:32,759
Speaker 1: though you brought up, you know, reconciling as an older woman.

1260
01:13:33,000 --> 01:13:35,600
Speaker 1: People forget. Two years after this movie came out, we

1261
01:13:35,680 --> 01:13:39,959
Speaker 1: got Goldie Hawn and Susan Surandon in The Banger Sisters,

1262
01:13:40,080 --> 01:13:43,840
Speaker 1: which actually is a comedy about two women who were

1263
01:13:44,080 --> 01:13:49,920
Speaker 1: nineteen seventies groupies dealing with like being essentially fish out

1264
01:13:49,920 --> 01:13:52,720
Speaker 1: of water. Like it's just it's just not at all

1265
01:13:52,880 --> 01:13:55,559
Speaker 1: Like it's a very two thousands look at groupie dom

1266
01:13:55,640 --> 01:13:58,000
Speaker 1: in the same way as this, where it's like Susan

1267
01:13:58,040 --> 01:14:01,200
Speaker 1: Surrandon's given up that groupie life and wears brown suits

1268
01:14:01,240 --> 01:14:04,200
Speaker 1: and she's very type A and she puts that aside

1269
01:14:04,200 --> 01:14:06,720
Speaker 1: to raise her children to be utterly perfect and they

1270
01:14:06,760 --> 01:14:09,400
Speaker 1: hate her for it. And Goldie Hawn is like the

1271
01:14:09,920 --> 01:14:13,800
Speaker 1: Goldie han She's this free spirit who's still trying to

1272
01:14:13,840 --> 01:14:16,479
Speaker 1: be She's like, um, she's like Steve the pirate from

1273
01:14:17,280 --> 01:14:20,400
Speaker 1: from Dodgeball who like still commits to the bit and

1274
01:14:20,600 --> 01:14:24,280
Speaker 1: doesn't understand why people believe, like don't believe that she's

1275
01:14:24,680 --> 01:14:29,160
Speaker 1: a modern woman. She's Austin Powers. Pretty much very fun movie,

1276
01:14:29,400 --> 01:14:32,880
Speaker 1: but not does not reconcile at all with like the

1277
01:14:32,960 --> 01:14:37,280
Speaker 1: dichotomy of that era. It's more just like Susan Sarandon's

1278
01:14:37,439 --> 01:14:41,040
Speaker 1: daughter in the movie, who's Erica Christensen is like, you're saying,

1279
01:14:41,040 --> 01:14:43,960
Speaker 1: our mom used to be fun and made mistakes and

1280
01:14:44,040 --> 01:14:49,639
Speaker 1: smoked weed. What What's It's very much of its era, right.

1281
01:14:49,680 --> 01:14:52,719
Speaker 1: Do you think Goldie Hawn, her character in that movie

1282
01:14:52,760 --> 01:14:56,479
Speaker 1: is somehow related to Penny Lane's character in Almost Famous

1283
01:14:56,479 --> 01:15:00,760
Speaker 1: because famously Goldie Hawn is Kate Hudson's mom. It took

1284
01:15:00,840 --> 01:15:03,720
Speaker 1: until two thousand and three, February seventeenth, at one o

1285
01:15:03,840 --> 01:15:06,519
Speaker 1: six pm for me to make that connection. I did

1286
01:15:06,560 --> 01:15:08,880
Speaker 1: not realize that until I just started talking about it,

1287
01:15:09,160 --> 01:15:11,240
Speaker 1: and I wish I had made that connection that. I mean,

1288
01:15:11,280 --> 01:15:14,720
Speaker 1: it's very very possible. It's very possible. The movie did

1289
01:15:14,720 --> 01:15:17,680
Speaker 1: not do well enough to make any impact on audiences

1290
01:15:17,680 --> 01:15:21,080
Speaker 1: except me, who still finds it delightful. And I think

1291
01:15:21,080 --> 01:15:24,559
Speaker 1: if anything, that movie also throws in like the plaster

1292
01:15:24,720 --> 01:15:28,040
Speaker 1: castor elements like there's a whole there's a whole sequence

1293
01:15:28,080 --> 01:15:31,480
Speaker 1: of Goldie Haunt and Susan s Randon looking at pictures

1294
01:15:31,520 --> 01:15:37,200
Speaker 1: of supposedly famous rock penises, but again never reconciling with

1295
01:15:37,240 --> 01:15:39,080
Speaker 1: the fact that they're like, also, hey, look at this

1296
01:15:39,120 --> 01:15:42,200
Speaker 1: photo of us. We were like fourteen years old, and

1297
01:15:42,280 --> 01:15:48,439
Speaker 1: also we have dick pics on Polaroid. Yeah, I mean

1298
01:15:48,479 --> 01:15:49,960
Speaker 1: I would, and I do think that there's a way

1299
01:15:49,960 --> 01:15:53,440
Speaker 1: to make a movie like that that isn't inherently fucking depressing,

1300
01:15:53,600 --> 01:15:56,120
Speaker 1: which I think is always my issue with movies about

1301
01:15:56,240 --> 01:15:58,960
Speaker 1: like women reflecting on their lives. And they're like, well,

1302
01:15:58,960 --> 01:16:01,720
Speaker 1: of course it's safe to assume it fucking sucked, and

1303
01:16:01,920 --> 01:16:04,160
Speaker 1: like it was really depressing the whole time. You're like, well,

1304
01:16:04,160 --> 01:16:07,080
Speaker 1: it can still be like an engaging, interesting I think

1305
01:16:07,080 --> 01:16:09,960
Speaker 1: we just need to write this. Yeah. Another thing that

1306
01:16:10,000 --> 01:16:13,519
Speaker 1: Pamela despars mentioned that also registered for me, just given

1307
01:16:13,560 --> 01:16:16,599
Speaker 1: the time and the scene that you're in, is she

1308
01:16:16,920 --> 01:16:19,280
Speaker 1: made a note in that twenty twenty interview with Vulture

1309
01:16:19,400 --> 01:16:22,960
Speaker 1: of saying how whitewashed the movie felt to her, and

1310
01:16:23,120 --> 01:16:26,960
Speaker 1: how like centered on white rockers, you know, white rockers

1311
01:16:26,960 --> 01:16:29,880
Speaker 1: who were certainly around and people that Cameron crow would

1312
01:16:29,880 --> 01:16:32,679
Speaker 1: have encountered, but like the seventies was a huge moment

1313
01:16:32,920 --> 01:16:35,840
Speaker 1: for black music in particular, and like the fact that

1314
01:16:35,880 --> 01:16:39,280
Speaker 1: you the only black musicians and black people in general

1315
01:16:39,360 --> 01:16:41,800
Speaker 1: that you see are very much in the background of

1316
01:16:41,920 --> 01:16:45,400
Speaker 1: scenes either like set dressing and the way that women

1317
01:16:45,560 --> 01:16:48,759
Speaker 1: are occasionally used as set dressing in this movie as well,

1318
01:16:49,240 --> 01:16:54,439
Speaker 1: in a way that this is just like not historically accurate, right,

1319
01:16:54,920 --> 01:16:59,000
Speaker 1: I feel like Cameron Crowe has that problem in all

1320
01:16:59,040 --> 01:17:01,920
Speaker 1: of his movie. Well, he did make a lohot, didn't

1321
01:17:01,960 --> 01:17:03,960
Speaker 1: he did. I was gonna say, yeah, I mean Emma

1322
01:17:04,040 --> 01:17:07,400
Speaker 1: Stone was one eighth Chinese or what I whatever the

1323
01:17:07,400 --> 01:17:10,760
Speaker 1: hell that movie was saying, Yeah, saying she was so

1324
01:17:11,120 --> 01:17:15,639
Speaker 1: you know, chronic problem, yes, but yeah, I appreciated that

1325
01:17:15,680 --> 01:17:18,000
Speaker 1: she called that out as well. Yeah, and yeah, I

1326
01:17:18,000 --> 01:17:20,479
Speaker 1: guess she teaches memoir writing classes now, which is kind

1327
01:17:20,520 --> 01:17:22,559
Speaker 1: of cool. Cool, I was I want to take that

1328
01:17:22,760 --> 01:17:28,960
Speaker 1: what okay, Um, We've been speaking broadly about consent so

1329
01:17:29,040 --> 01:17:32,080
Speaker 1: far in this episode, there's a few specific let's talk

1330
01:17:32,120 --> 01:17:36,439
Speaker 1: about the scene, the two scenes where it's a huge thing, yes,

1331
01:17:37,760 --> 01:17:43,920
Speaker 1: um placing a trigger warning here for rape for underage

1332
01:17:44,240 --> 01:17:53,200
Speaker 1: sexual assault. So chronologically, the first one is the let's

1333
01:17:53,479 --> 01:18:00,760
Speaker 1: deflower William scene where three of the band aids Sapphire,

1334
01:18:01,000 --> 01:18:06,439
Speaker 1: Polexia and I think Beth from Denver. Question Mark is

1335
01:18:06,439 --> 01:18:10,880
Speaker 1: the third one. They basically decide amongst themselves that they

1336
01:18:10,920 --> 01:18:14,920
Speaker 1: are going to deflower William, who they know is fifteen

1337
01:18:15,000 --> 01:18:19,320
Speaker 1: years old. They then descend on him while he's trying

1338
01:18:19,360 --> 01:18:22,439
Speaker 1: to talk to Penny Lane, who he's in love with

1339
01:18:22,520 --> 01:18:25,519
Speaker 1: the idea of who she has presented herself as being.

1340
01:18:25,920 --> 01:18:28,639
Speaker 1: But anyway, so they're talking, they descend on him. They

1341
01:18:28,720 --> 01:18:32,560
Speaker 1: kind of like pull him into the other room. He's resisting,

1342
01:18:33,280 --> 01:18:38,840
Speaker 1: He's saying no, no, no. They are pulling his clothes off,

1343
01:18:39,200 --> 01:18:40,920
Speaker 1: and then they start kissing in front of him, and

1344
01:18:40,960 --> 01:18:43,160
Speaker 1: then we cut to the next morning they wake up

1345
01:18:43,160 --> 01:18:46,040
Speaker 1: and bed together, and then they say they refer to

1346
01:18:46,240 --> 01:18:51,120
Speaker 1: him no longer being a virgin, and everyone's kind of giggling, right,

1347
01:18:51,200 --> 01:18:54,360
Speaker 1: I mean, it's very clear what happens. It's the way

1348
01:18:54,360 --> 01:19:00,120
Speaker 1: that it's framed as this like romantic cool moment like

1349
01:19:00,160 --> 01:19:04,080
Speaker 1: the scene could not be filmed more as like, pro

1350
01:19:04,479 --> 01:19:09,200
Speaker 1: what's happening, even though what he's saying is no. And

1351
01:19:09,240 --> 01:19:12,479
Speaker 1: he's in the middle of a conversation with Penny, and

1352
01:19:12,680 --> 01:19:17,120
Speaker 1: like they physically drag him into the bedroom. But then

1353
01:19:17,160 --> 01:19:21,120
Speaker 1: it's like a very romantic tone, the cameras like circling them,

1354
01:19:21,200 --> 01:19:24,880
Speaker 1: and you know, it's very cropped body. You know, there's

1355
01:19:24,960 --> 01:19:27,240
Speaker 1: just butts passing his face and he's looking at Kate

1356
01:19:27,320 --> 01:19:29,600
Speaker 1: Hudson and she seems to be thrilled that this is

1357
01:19:29,640 --> 01:19:32,439
Speaker 1: happening as well, and she leaves the room and it's

1358
01:19:32,479 --> 01:19:36,280
Speaker 1: just like, well, this is an assault that's taking place,

1359
01:19:36,920 --> 01:19:39,639
Speaker 1: but the way that Cameron Crowe films it and frames it,

1360
01:19:40,160 --> 01:19:41,559
Speaker 1: you kind of would never know it. And I don't

1361
01:19:41,560 --> 01:19:44,080
Speaker 1: think that people really talked about it like that until

1362
01:19:44,200 --> 01:19:47,400
Speaker 1: at least a decade later, right, I think we still

1363
01:19:47,439 --> 01:19:50,559
Speaker 1: have this weird issue with male consent. I mean, we

1364
01:19:50,600 --> 01:19:53,840
Speaker 1: saw the same types of discussions when Bridgertin came out.

1365
01:19:54,160 --> 01:19:56,680
Speaker 1: There was some deep talk about like is that a

1366
01:19:56,760 --> 01:19:59,719
Speaker 1: rape scene that we're watching it certainly non doesn't feel

1367
01:19:59,720 --> 01:20:03,160
Speaker 1: consider ENSUALU And that just came and went, like we

1368
01:20:03,280 --> 01:20:05,360
Speaker 1: never really talked about it after that. And I think

1369
01:20:05,400 --> 01:20:08,680
Speaker 1: that with with something like this, it goes back to

1370
01:20:08,720 --> 01:20:11,200
Speaker 1: that whole concept of like the reverse feminism that we

1371
01:20:11,280 --> 01:20:14,360
Speaker 1: saw in the two thousands, where it's like, well, these

1372
01:20:14,400 --> 01:20:17,360
Speaker 1: women have power, they're taking it back, and like they're

1373
01:20:17,400 --> 01:20:20,000
Speaker 1: the ones that are offering, like as if to say

1374
01:20:20,120 --> 01:20:23,400
Speaker 1: that as long as women are consenting, that makes it

1375
01:20:23,439 --> 01:20:26,680
Speaker 1: okay that they're okay with it. And you know what

1376
01:20:26,800 --> 01:20:29,080
Speaker 1: kind of guy wouldn't want his first time to be

1377
01:20:29,160 --> 01:20:32,360
Speaker 1: with three women? Am I right? Like it's just very

1378
01:20:32,439 --> 01:20:36,720
Speaker 1: much in that grand scheme of like women can't be predators.

1379
01:20:36,800 --> 01:20:39,320
Speaker 1: It's it's you know, if they're dating young men, it's

1380
01:20:39,360 --> 01:20:41,679
Speaker 1: just like doing what men have been doing all this time.

1381
01:20:42,479 --> 01:20:45,840
Speaker 1: It doesn't make it right. But it's this this mentality

1382
01:20:45,880 --> 01:20:48,840
Speaker 1: that I think we had at the time, where it's

1383
01:20:48,840 --> 01:20:51,840
Speaker 1: the rock and roll lifestyle and the women are okay

1384
01:20:51,880 --> 01:20:55,000
Speaker 1: with it, so therefore it is fine. Right, That is

1385
01:20:55,160 --> 01:20:59,519
Speaker 1: very much a byproduct of rape culture. That's still yeah,

1386
01:20:59,560 --> 01:21:04,080
Speaker 1: permis to this day where there there's still an idea of, oh, men,

1387
01:21:04,840 --> 01:21:07,439
Speaker 1: there's no need for a man to consent or not,

1388
01:21:07,520 --> 01:21:10,920
Speaker 1: because a man is always going to consent to sex

1389
01:21:10,960 --> 01:21:13,599
Speaker 1: with a woman, right, And then if you don't, there's

1390
01:21:13,640 --> 01:21:16,439
Speaker 1: something wrong with people. And it's like your if your

1391
01:21:16,600 --> 01:21:22,040
Speaker 1: default isn't hyper sexual, then you're lesser, you're less masculine

1392
01:21:22,120 --> 01:21:27,200
Speaker 1: or whatever that thing is. Yeah, like it's so frustrating

1393
01:21:27,200 --> 01:21:30,799
Speaker 1: and interesting to like reflect on that period of time.

1394
01:21:31,040 --> 01:21:34,360
Speaker 1: They're talking about Christen of like the girl Boss mentality

1395
01:21:34,400 --> 01:21:38,560
Speaker 1: of like, well, the solution to patriarchy, which already is

1396
01:21:38,680 --> 01:21:42,360
Speaker 1: very like cut down the gender binary, is that women

1397
01:21:42,479 --> 01:21:44,439
Speaker 1: should just be able to do what men have been

1398
01:21:44,479 --> 01:21:47,680
Speaker 1: doing the whole time. And it's like, no, it's a

1399
01:21:47,720 --> 01:21:52,680
Speaker 1: systemic no, no, Yeah, it's come on, like it's not

1400
01:21:52,760 --> 01:21:54,839
Speaker 1: a challenge of like, well, how do we view consent

1401
01:21:55,000 --> 01:21:57,919
Speaker 1: in general? And like have we ever had a productive

1402
01:21:57,960 --> 01:22:01,559
Speaker 1: cultural conversation about consent. It's just that, you know, women

1403
01:22:01,600 --> 01:22:03,360
Speaker 1: should be allowed to do what men do. And it's like,

1404
01:22:03,360 --> 01:22:05,400
Speaker 1: well no, but we didn't like what they were doing.

1405
01:22:06,280 --> 01:22:09,439
Speaker 1: That was the that was a big problem. No one

1406
01:22:09,520 --> 01:22:13,960
Speaker 1: should mistreat anyone, regardless of gender. So yeah, the movie

1407
01:22:14,000 --> 01:22:19,200
Speaker 1: does not frame what happens as a gang rape, but

1408
01:22:19,320 --> 01:22:23,519
Speaker 1: that's what is happening. And then the movie just moves on.

1409
01:22:23,680 --> 01:22:26,320
Speaker 1: Immediately they're like okay, and now there's another call about

1410
01:22:26,360 --> 01:22:29,920
Speaker 1: the deadline and then it just like never comes back.

1411
01:22:30,160 --> 01:22:32,439
Speaker 1: And this is also like would be an interesting thing

1412
01:22:32,479 --> 01:22:36,799
Speaker 1: to see an older man reflect on in a movie

1413
01:22:36,880 --> 01:22:39,400
Speaker 1: like this is just yeah, I don't know, this is

1414
01:22:39,600 --> 01:22:43,040
Speaker 1: sort of bizarre. But I used to be really into

1415
01:22:43,800 --> 01:22:48,639
Speaker 1: these self published blog memoirs that a Carney would write.

1416
01:22:49,400 --> 01:22:53,599
Speaker 1: He would be around Kivered Crow's age, but like, same,

1417
01:22:53,800 --> 01:22:58,479
Speaker 1: what was traveling in carnivals as a teenager in the

1418
01:22:58,560 --> 01:23:01,920
Speaker 1: late sixties early seventies, And when I was watching the scene,

1419
01:23:01,960 --> 01:23:04,360
Speaker 1: I was like, whoa, this is so similar to something

1420
01:23:04,360 --> 01:23:08,479
Speaker 1: that Kevin wrote about in his blog of like how

1421
01:23:08,520 --> 01:23:11,240
Speaker 1: when he was a teenager, like there were a group

1422
01:23:11,320 --> 01:23:14,280
Speaker 1: of women carnies that were like, Okay, it's time for

1423
01:23:14,360 --> 01:23:17,000
Speaker 1: you to lose your virginity and he was like okay,

1424
01:23:17,000 --> 01:23:19,000
Speaker 1: and then like writing about it as an older man,

1425
01:23:19,160 --> 01:23:22,920
Speaker 1: like not quite knowing how to place that experience, and

1426
01:23:23,040 --> 01:23:25,360
Speaker 1: like at the time telling himself as a kid like

1427
01:23:26,160 --> 01:23:28,519
Speaker 1: I'm supposed to feel happy about this, So I guess

1428
01:23:28,560 --> 01:23:32,519
Speaker 1: I feel happy about this, but in reality, it's like

1429
01:23:32,600 --> 01:23:35,800
Speaker 1: that's it's just because you're sort of in the same

1430
01:23:35,840 --> 01:23:38,400
Speaker 1: way that Penny Lane is sort of reflecting how she's

1431
01:23:38,400 --> 01:23:41,200
Speaker 1: supposed to feel about things in order to keep some

1432
01:23:41,240 --> 01:23:43,720
Speaker 1: semblance of control of her life. It's like William has

1433
01:23:43,760 --> 01:23:46,439
Speaker 1: to do that too, But I don't think that Cameron

1434
01:23:46,439 --> 01:23:48,799
Speaker 1: Crow sees it that way. And then I'm also wondering

1435
01:23:48,840 --> 01:23:52,160
Speaker 1: how this reflects Cameron Crowe's life and experience like that too.

1436
01:23:52,240 --> 01:23:56,400
Speaker 1: We don't know he's the William character. Yeah, I was

1437
01:23:56,520 --> 01:24:00,080
Speaker 1: very curious about that too, but I haven't found any

1438
01:24:00,080 --> 01:24:02,840
Speaker 1: thing about it, not that it's any of our fucking business. Right,

1439
01:24:03,040 --> 01:24:06,040
Speaker 1: how Camera Crow lost his virginity? So there you go.

1440
01:24:06,240 --> 01:24:13,080
Speaker 1: I mean, the movie's attitude toward consents insects is very

1441
01:24:13,120 --> 01:24:17,639
Speaker 1: reflective of the seventies the two thousands. And then there's

1442
01:24:17,680 --> 01:24:22,840
Speaker 1: the overdose scene. Yes, what happens here is Penny Lane

1443
01:24:23,040 --> 01:24:27,920
Speaker 1: is overdosing on Quelude's William calls a doctor to the

1444
01:24:27,920 --> 01:24:31,120
Speaker 1: hotel room. He's waiting for the doctor to arrive. He's

1445
01:24:31,160 --> 01:24:35,920
Speaker 1: like holding her, She's drifting in and out of consciousness.

1446
01:24:36,000 --> 01:24:39,479
Speaker 1: He professes his love to her, and then he says

1447
01:24:39,479 --> 01:24:42,000
Speaker 1: something like I'm going to boldly go where many men

1448
01:24:42,120 --> 01:24:47,920
Speaker 1: have gone before. Hilarious moon landing assault joke. And then

1449
01:24:48,000 --> 01:24:52,320
Speaker 1: he kisses her while she's unconscious. Good one, and the

1450
01:24:52,400 --> 01:24:55,120
Speaker 1: movie again it is not critical of this at all.

1451
01:24:55,240 --> 01:24:59,840
Speaker 1: It does not see this as the assault that it is,

1452
01:25:01,000 --> 01:25:04,760
Speaker 1: and it just breathes right past this moment as if like, yeah,

1453
01:25:04,800 --> 01:25:08,000
Speaker 1: that's just what you do. It's also unclear what this

1454
01:25:08,160 --> 01:25:12,360
Speaker 1: does to their relationship, in the sense that it's not

1455
01:25:12,400 --> 01:25:17,840
Speaker 1: even clear if she knows. Don't think she does. Yeah, which,

1456
01:25:17,960 --> 01:25:21,400
Speaker 1: considering like their their relationship and that this would be

1457
01:25:21,439 --> 01:25:24,920
Speaker 1: a moment for them to discuss are we into each

1458
01:25:24,920 --> 01:25:27,240
Speaker 1: other or is she into him as much as he

1459
01:25:27,320 --> 01:25:31,519
Speaker 1: is into her, it's never acknowledged. The scene culminates with

1460
01:25:31,560 --> 01:25:34,519
Speaker 1: the stomach pumping. I mean, I think, if anything, that

1461
01:25:34,880 --> 01:25:38,720
Speaker 1: the humor of having my Sharia Moore play over her

1462
01:25:38,920 --> 01:25:43,320
Speaker 1: bar finger gets out is probably a better use of

1463
01:25:43,439 --> 01:25:47,600
Speaker 1: humor than the moon landing joke. But when she, you know,

1464
01:25:47,680 --> 01:25:51,120
Speaker 1: has the realization later and they have that discussion, it's

1465
01:25:51,160 --> 01:25:53,439
Speaker 1: more of a moment for her to be real with

1466
01:25:53,520 --> 01:25:56,200
Speaker 1: him right and say what her real name is and

1467
01:25:56,280 --> 01:25:59,920
Speaker 1: talk about her background very briefly, But it never is

1468
01:26:00,640 --> 01:26:05,800
Speaker 1: discussed what their relationship is. It stays fairly platonic, not

1469
01:26:05,880 --> 01:26:09,479
Speaker 1: for his lack of trying, but he never makes any

1470
01:26:09,520 --> 01:26:13,080
Speaker 1: effort to do that. While she is coherent right right.

1471
01:26:13,160 --> 01:26:15,320
Speaker 1: He even says, like, why am I doing this? You're

1472
01:26:15,360 --> 01:26:18,679
Speaker 1: never even going to remember it tomorrow, Like he's aware. Yeah,

1473
01:26:18,680 --> 01:26:21,519
Speaker 1: he comes so close to being self aware in that moment.

1474
01:26:21,560 --> 01:26:24,200
Speaker 1: And then still and even the setup of that scene,

1475
01:26:24,320 --> 01:26:26,679
Speaker 1: And I mean, I think once I read that Pamela

1476
01:26:26,720 --> 01:26:29,760
Speaker 1: des Bars took serious issue with the fact that that

1477
01:26:29,840 --> 01:26:33,000
Speaker 1: scene happens at all, sort of clarified for it, like

1478
01:26:33,200 --> 01:26:37,080
Speaker 1: he's already set up as the hero of that scene

1479
01:26:37,120 --> 01:26:40,160
Speaker 1: where it's like sort of implied that not only you know,

1480
01:26:40,280 --> 01:26:44,840
Speaker 1: as Penny Lane so devastated that she would you know, overdose,

1481
01:26:45,120 --> 01:26:49,320
Speaker 1: but also that she needs to be rescued by William,

1482
01:26:49,360 --> 01:26:51,920
Speaker 1: which she does. And then later Russell echoes that exact

1483
01:26:52,000 --> 01:26:56,040
Speaker 1: thing in that scene I don't like where he's like, oh,

1484
01:26:56,120 --> 01:26:59,160
Speaker 1: I think she wanted us to do our little interview,

1485
01:26:59,160 --> 01:27:01,240
Speaker 1: what do you think? And then it's also one of

1486
01:27:01,280 --> 01:27:03,720
Speaker 1: her friends is like, oh, I always told Penny not

1487
01:27:03,760 --> 01:27:05,599
Speaker 1: to let too many guys fall in love with her,

1488
01:27:06,080 --> 01:27:08,280
Speaker 1: but I guess I was wrong because one of them

1489
01:27:08,560 --> 01:27:13,080
Speaker 1: saved her life kind of like Mario style, and you're like, uh, like,

1490
01:27:13,200 --> 01:27:15,600
Speaker 1: I feel like at that point in the movie, you

1491
01:27:15,680 --> 01:27:20,839
Speaker 1: have enough about Penny that if we're talking movie logic.

1492
01:27:21,360 --> 01:27:23,800
Speaker 1: It would have made sense to me that she would

1493
01:27:23,800 --> 01:27:27,000
Speaker 1: have saved herself, because that's like where her narrative is

1494
01:27:27,040 --> 01:27:31,000
Speaker 1: heading anyways. But William has to be the hero in

1495
01:27:31,040 --> 01:27:35,360
Speaker 1: that moment, but he also assaults her immediately before, Like

1496
01:27:35,560 --> 01:27:40,880
Speaker 1: it's just it's a mess of a scorn horrid. How

1497
01:27:40,880 --> 01:27:44,519
Speaker 1: did Peter Frampton not say something? But again, it's like,

1498
01:27:44,560 --> 01:27:47,120
Speaker 1: I bet that scene wouldn't even be there if Pamela

1499
01:27:47,200 --> 01:27:49,280
Speaker 1: Dispars was a consultant, or would be there in a

1500
01:27:49,280 --> 01:27:53,000
Speaker 1: different form, in a different capacity. Yeah. Yeah. The last

1501
01:27:53,080 --> 01:27:57,080
Speaker 1: thing I want to touch on is the character coming

1502
01:27:57,160 --> 01:28:01,960
Speaker 1: out as a joke two thousands a two thousand. Yeah,

1503
01:28:02,000 --> 01:28:05,759
Speaker 1: So what happens here is one of the other members

1504
01:28:05,840 --> 01:28:08,479
Speaker 1: of the band who we haven't spent much time with,

1505
01:28:08,600 --> 01:28:13,519
Speaker 1: so not Jeff or Russell. Um, I honestly don't even

1506
01:28:13,560 --> 01:28:17,320
Speaker 1: know which one it is, Larry or is it? Yeah?

1507
01:28:17,720 --> 01:28:20,519
Speaker 1: Oh no, it's Ed. It's Ed. It's Ed. Okay, it's Ed,

1508
01:28:20,680 --> 01:28:23,439
Speaker 1: someone who doesn't speak throughout the entirety of the movie.

1509
01:28:23,520 --> 01:28:27,080
Speaker 1: He literally says almost nothing. So what happens is they're

1510
01:28:27,120 --> 01:28:29,800
Speaker 1: on the is the scene on the plane they're hitting

1511
01:28:29,800 --> 01:28:32,320
Speaker 1: all this turbulence, they think they might crash and die,

1512
01:28:32,400 --> 01:28:35,479
Speaker 1: so they're again they're like kind of being very forward

1513
01:28:35,520 --> 01:28:39,280
Speaker 1: with their feelings and their secrets. And the button on

1514
01:28:39,880 --> 01:28:44,280
Speaker 1: that conversation is, um, who did we decide it was Larry?

1515
01:28:44,760 --> 01:28:54,080
Speaker 1: I think okay, ed name so Ed is like I'm gay.

1516
01:28:55,040 --> 01:28:59,120
Speaker 1: Everyone is like huh. And then immediately after that, the

1517
01:28:59,160 --> 01:29:01,760
Speaker 1: plane kind of like levels out, the turbulent stops, the

1518
01:29:01,880 --> 01:29:05,160
Speaker 1: light comes back on, like everything seems smooth, sailing through

1519
01:29:05,240 --> 01:29:11,280
Speaker 1: one lens, living his authentic truth saved everyone's life through magic.

1520
01:29:11,600 --> 01:29:13,679
Speaker 1: But I don't think that's what camera Crow is trying

1521
01:29:13,760 --> 01:29:17,080
Speaker 1: to do exactly so, and then the character has this

1522
01:29:17,160 --> 01:29:20,560
Speaker 1: kind of like panicked look, which fair coming out is

1523
01:29:20,600 --> 01:29:23,519
Speaker 1: gay in nineteen seventy three certainly came with a lot

1524
01:29:23,560 --> 01:29:26,720
Speaker 1: of risk, But I feel like the coming out and

1525
01:29:26,760 --> 01:29:30,320
Speaker 1: then his panicked aftermath is it was a Joel played

1526
01:29:30,360 --> 01:29:33,200
Speaker 1: for comedy. Yeah for sure, Like, oh and now everyone

1527
01:29:33,240 --> 01:29:35,640
Speaker 1: knows he's gay, and isn't that funny? Is how the

1528
01:29:35,680 --> 01:29:39,240
Speaker 1: movie wants you to view that. Yes, On the one hand,

1529
01:29:39,360 --> 01:29:42,920
Speaker 1: it's really weird to find the connection because there's a

1530
01:29:43,040 --> 01:29:47,880
Speaker 1: joke in Mall Rats that Jason Lee ironically tells that's

1531
01:29:47,880 --> 01:29:50,400
Speaker 1: a very similar story about like people on an airplane,

1532
01:29:50,439 --> 01:29:54,439
Speaker 1: the plane crashes and they start essentially masturbating, and then

1533
01:29:54,560 --> 01:29:57,320
Speaker 1: the plane rights itself and everybody asks to look at

1534
01:29:57,320 --> 01:30:00,439
Speaker 1: each other knowing what they've done. Kevin Smith that in

1535
01:30:00,520 --> 01:30:03,360
Speaker 1: like ninety four, and then it happens in this movie

1536
01:30:03,360 --> 01:30:05,640
Speaker 1: in the sense that like it's a very similar and

1537
01:30:05,680 --> 01:30:08,240
Speaker 1: it starts Jason Lee. So I never liked know how

1538
01:30:08,280 --> 01:30:11,759
Speaker 1: to take that. If that's like an intentional comparison, that's

1539
01:30:11,840 --> 01:30:14,920
Speaker 1: so bizarre. But I mean the plane, the plane crash element,

1540
01:30:15,000 --> 01:30:17,400
Speaker 1: there's this this air of dark comedy in it. Right,

1541
01:30:17,400 --> 01:30:21,320
Speaker 1: considering how many rock stars did perish in plane crashes,

1542
01:30:21,439 --> 01:30:24,120
Speaker 1: do you wonder what their their last moments were, like,

1543
01:30:24,240 --> 01:30:27,559
Speaker 1: you know, was it a similar like confessional moment? And

1544
01:30:27,640 --> 01:30:30,880
Speaker 1: I think that at the time, like as as you said,

1545
01:30:30,880 --> 01:30:33,679
Speaker 1: two thousands is going to two thousand, like we this

1546
01:30:33,760 --> 01:30:36,519
Speaker 1: is the Will and Grace era still, you know, like

1547
01:30:36,560 --> 01:30:39,120
Speaker 1: we were still laughing at like we accepted that, you know,

1548
01:30:39,240 --> 01:30:42,120
Speaker 1: gay people or a thing, and we're still finding we're

1549
01:30:42,160 --> 01:30:44,640
Speaker 1: trying to find humor in this type of like revelation.

1550
01:30:44,720 --> 01:30:48,559
Speaker 1: But I think for me, again, context is key and

1551
01:30:48,960 --> 01:30:51,120
Speaker 1: knowing that it's nineteen seventy three. I was like, oh,

1552
01:30:51,200 --> 01:30:52,840
Speaker 1: so they would have just kicked it out of the

1553
01:30:52,840 --> 01:30:56,320
Speaker 1: band after this, Like what is the discussion after this?

1554
01:30:56,479 --> 01:30:59,960
Speaker 1: Because there I mean, I'm doing just a casual search

1555
01:31:00,080 --> 01:31:02,920
Speaker 1: of my brain, and I don't know any rock stars

1556
01:31:02,960 --> 01:31:07,439
Speaker 1: that openly were gay in the nineteen seventies, especially considering

1557
01:31:07,439 --> 01:31:09,280
Speaker 1: this is like the era we're coming up on, like

1558
01:31:09,320 --> 01:31:15,080
Speaker 1: Anita Bryant and like harsh backlash for gay people. I

1559
01:31:15,160 --> 01:31:18,320
Speaker 1: don't I think that, like if anything, again, William leaves

1560
01:31:18,320 --> 01:31:20,479
Speaker 1: the story on the table, not that outing should be

1561
01:31:20,520 --> 01:31:23,280
Speaker 1: a thing, but like that would be like Ben functorres

1562
01:31:23,400 --> 01:31:25,599
Speaker 1: might be like, dude, wait a minute, one of these

1563
01:31:25,600 --> 01:31:28,840
Speaker 1: guys is gay, like the screw local band makes good,

1564
01:31:28,960 --> 01:31:31,920
Speaker 1: Like there would be repercussions. There would have to be

1565
01:31:31,960 --> 01:31:35,519
Speaker 1: a discussion because to be a major rock band came

1566
01:31:35,720 --> 01:31:40,240
Speaker 1: with a heavy dose of heterosexuality. That's why they had groupies.

1567
01:31:40,280 --> 01:31:43,479
Speaker 1: There weren't We weren't hearing stories about groups of dudes

1568
01:31:44,120 --> 01:31:47,880
Speaker 1: offering sex to rock stars, you know, in this time period,

1569
01:31:47,920 --> 01:31:50,960
Speaker 1: even though I'm sure there were rock stars that were gay,

1570
01:31:51,040 --> 01:31:54,040
Speaker 1: and there probably were groupies that were also, I mean,

1571
01:31:54,240 --> 01:31:57,240
Speaker 1: those stories aren't told, but there would have to say

1572
01:31:57,280 --> 01:32:00,160
Speaker 1: that they would have gotten off that plane and not

1573
01:32:01,160 --> 01:32:03,960
Speaker 1: looked at him, it would have changed everything, I think.

1574
01:32:03,960 --> 01:32:05,600
Speaker 1: And at the end of the movie when it's like

1575
01:32:05,640 --> 01:32:08,600
Speaker 1: every look at where everybody is like they show ed,

1576
01:32:08,840 --> 01:32:12,000
Speaker 1: He's just like, I'm with the bands still okay, So

1577
01:32:12,560 --> 01:32:14,439
Speaker 1: did you have to lie? Did you get a girlfriend?

1578
01:32:14,439 --> 01:32:16,960
Speaker 1: Like Elton John had to date women? Right, and he

1579
01:32:17,000 --> 01:32:20,080
Speaker 1: was the biggest star in the world. Yeah, in the

1580
01:32:20,120 --> 01:32:23,800
Speaker 1: same time period, what was happening with Freddie Mercury? Freddie Mury?

1581
01:32:23,880 --> 01:32:26,920
Speaker 1: I think Queen was starting out in the mid seventies

1582
01:32:27,040 --> 01:32:30,240
Speaker 1: and even then, like I mean, Freddie was okay, well,

1583
01:32:30,280 --> 01:32:32,439
Speaker 1: but we still like people still made fun of him

1584
01:32:32,520 --> 01:32:35,320
Speaker 1: and there was still criticism and back like he just

1585
01:32:35,400 --> 01:32:37,719
Speaker 1: didn't give a fuck about it. Yeah. Well, I ultimately

1586
01:32:37,760 --> 01:32:40,240
Speaker 1: think that that joke takes place in two thousand in

1587
01:32:40,280 --> 01:32:42,600
Speaker 1: a movie that is supposed to be in nineteen seventy two. Like,

1588
01:32:42,640 --> 01:32:46,400
Speaker 1: I think that that is a very of the late nineties,

1589
01:32:46,720 --> 01:32:51,920
Speaker 1: well into the two thousands, just referencing queerness as a

1590
01:32:52,000 --> 01:32:55,680
Speaker 1: punchline with no serious thought about the year. Like I

1591
01:32:55,720 --> 01:32:58,400
Speaker 1: don't think Cameron Crowe was thinking about nineteen seventy two

1592
01:32:58,439 --> 01:33:00,559
Speaker 1: when he wrote that Big used those oh, this is

1593
01:33:00,560 --> 01:33:04,320
Speaker 1: a fun button for the scene like, and it simply

1594
01:33:04,439 --> 01:33:07,479
Speaker 1: is not. And maybe he knows that now. I don't know.

1595
01:33:07,720 --> 01:33:09,840
Speaker 1: It's always one of the things that frustrates me, especially

1596
01:33:09,880 --> 01:33:14,599
Speaker 1: about this new world of color blind casting in period pieces.

1597
01:33:15,240 --> 01:33:19,439
Speaker 1: We've just bypassed the discussion and gone straight to it's

1598
01:33:19,439 --> 01:33:23,880
Speaker 1: okay to see to have all these characters be different ethnicities,

1599
01:33:23,920 --> 01:33:27,080
Speaker 1: that's great. I'm glad that we're seeing something like Minx,

1600
01:33:27,320 --> 01:33:31,360
Speaker 1: and there's more black women and we're having more minorities.

1601
01:33:31,680 --> 01:33:34,639
Speaker 1: Minx is a great example. It's not just casting that way,

1602
01:33:34,800 --> 01:33:37,639
Speaker 1: it's also saying, what would the experience of a black

1603
01:33:37,680 --> 01:33:39,920
Speaker 1: woman in the nineteen seventies have been like? Because trust us,

1604
01:33:39,920 --> 01:33:41,439
Speaker 1: it would not have been the same as the experience

1605
01:33:41,479 --> 01:33:43,400
Speaker 1: of a white woman in the nineteen seventies. And I

1606
01:33:43,400 --> 01:33:47,920
Speaker 1: think that too many films and television shows have not

1607
01:33:48,080 --> 01:33:51,920
Speaker 1: wanted to reconcile with how different races would have been

1608
01:33:51,920 --> 01:33:54,960
Speaker 1: treated in the past. Again, not to piss on Bridgertin again,

1609
01:33:55,000 --> 01:33:58,759
Speaker 1: but Bridgerton is a great example. It's a great world

1610
01:33:58,800 --> 01:34:01,320
Speaker 1: to live in where you have a predominant cast of

1611
01:34:01,439 --> 01:34:03,960
Speaker 1: people of color. That's great, but you have to look

1612
01:34:03,960 --> 01:34:06,519
Speaker 1: at the era in some way, we can't. We have

1613
01:34:06,600 --> 01:34:10,160
Speaker 1: to talk about how the distinctions of having a black

1614
01:34:10,200 --> 01:34:13,920
Speaker 1: monarch would be in that time period, and to not

1615
01:34:14,120 --> 01:34:17,880
Speaker 1: discuss it with any nuance just seems disingenuous. And we're

1616
01:34:17,920 --> 01:34:20,599
Speaker 1: still not having those conversations. And it's twenty twenty three,

1617
01:34:20,600 --> 01:34:23,280
Speaker 1: It's how many years since this movie came out. We're

1618
01:34:23,320 --> 01:34:26,760
Speaker 1: still not able to have those those discussions. The last

1619
01:34:26,800 --> 01:34:30,719
Speaker 1: thing I wanted to touch on is how Cameron Crowe

1620
01:34:30,920 --> 01:34:33,479
Speaker 1: did have to sort of like answer for some of

1621
01:34:33,520 --> 01:34:36,640
Speaker 1: his crimes in this movie about twenty years later. I

1622
01:34:36,640 --> 01:34:39,679
Speaker 1: think it was like twenty nineteen or twenty that Almost

1623
01:34:39,680 --> 01:34:43,519
Speaker 1: Famous was being adapted into a Broadway musical and Cameron

1624
01:34:43,520 --> 01:34:47,080
Speaker 1: crow is very involved in the process, and so a

1625
01:34:47,120 --> 01:34:49,160
Speaker 1: lot of the criticism that have been made of the

1626
01:34:49,200 --> 01:34:51,880
Speaker 1: movie came up while this was being developed into a

1627
01:34:51,880 --> 01:34:56,040
Speaker 1: Broadway musical. He did defend Penny Lane against the manic

1628
01:34:56,080 --> 01:35:00,559
Speaker 1: pixie dreamgirl allegations. He said, I always thought that she

1629
01:35:00,640 --> 01:35:03,000
Speaker 1: was a soulless, selfless, loving person who was super into

1630
01:35:03,000 --> 01:35:06,439
Speaker 1: community and kept herself a little bit hidden, and also

1631
01:35:06,520 --> 01:35:09,360
Speaker 1: makes reference to the real women he was pulling from,

1632
01:35:09,640 --> 01:35:12,680
Speaker 1: which fair point, but they did not get the opportunity

1633
01:35:12,800 --> 01:35:14,680
Speaker 1: to weigh in on the characters. I feel like that

1634
01:35:14,800 --> 01:35:19,200
Speaker 1: is maybe perhaps a little deflective. But the positive thing

1635
01:35:19,200 --> 01:35:21,960
Speaker 1: I wanted to mention was that he does at least

1636
01:35:22,000 --> 01:35:25,759
Speaker 1: have the self awareness that he cuts the gang rape

1637
01:35:25,880 --> 01:35:29,320
Speaker 1: scene from the musical that does not appear. It seems

1638
01:35:29,600 --> 01:35:33,160
Speaker 1: as if he took the note that that is not

1639
01:35:33,240 --> 01:35:35,640
Speaker 1: a sequence that you would want to glorify, and I

1640
01:35:35,680 --> 01:35:39,680
Speaker 1: think that his response was to not include it in

1641
01:35:39,760 --> 01:35:42,640
Speaker 1: the musical adaptation at all. Wow, a man doing the

1642
01:35:42,680 --> 01:35:47,400
Speaker 1: bare minimum. I know, yeay, not including a gang rape

1643
01:35:47,400 --> 01:35:52,880
Speaker 1: scene in a lighthearted Broadway musical. So that's that. Does

1644
01:35:52,920 --> 01:35:56,600
Speaker 1: anyone have anything else they want to talk about? I

1645
01:35:56,680 --> 01:35:59,800
Speaker 1: will throw out that as flawed as this movie is,

1646
01:36:00,680 --> 01:36:05,479
Speaker 1: the Tiny Dancer sequence is still my favorite favorite movie

1647
01:36:05,520 --> 01:36:11,040
Speaker 1: moment of all all time on feminist icon Doris the Bus. Yes,

1648
01:36:11,560 --> 01:36:15,000
Speaker 1: I don't believe any movie has has done the group

1649
01:36:15,160 --> 01:36:19,800
Speaker 1: sing with as much fun and beautifully filmed as it

1650
01:36:19,840 --> 01:36:22,880
Speaker 1: does in this movie, So much so that me, as

1651
01:36:22,920 --> 01:36:25,920
Speaker 1: a little film nerd in junior my junior year of

1652
01:36:25,960 --> 01:36:29,280
Speaker 1: high school, did a whole presentation about just that scene

1653
01:36:29,320 --> 01:36:33,760
Speaker 1: and Cameron Crowe's relationship to music and editing, and I

1654
01:36:33,800 --> 01:36:36,720
Speaker 1: knew I was a goner. So I give this movie,

1655
01:36:36,760 --> 01:36:41,880
Speaker 1: if anything, credit for that moment. Hell yeah, Well does

1656
01:36:41,960 --> 01:36:45,920
Speaker 1: this movie pass the Bechdel test? Ah? Yeah, it does.

1657
01:36:46,280 --> 01:36:50,639
Speaker 1: It does. It passes between at least Anita and Elaine

1658
01:36:51,240 --> 01:36:53,920
Speaker 1: at I think a few different points. They're arguing about

1659
01:36:55,040 --> 01:36:59,360
Speaker 1: Anita's direction in life and Elaine's opinions on when Christmas

1660
01:36:59,360 --> 01:37:02,080
Speaker 1: Shippy slid rated. It passes again at the end with

1661
01:37:02,240 --> 01:37:05,120
Speaker 1: that exchange that was so loaded, and I was like, ah,

1662
01:37:05,160 --> 01:37:07,120
Speaker 1: I want to know more about this of like, I

1663
01:37:07,200 --> 01:37:10,800
Speaker 1: forgive you, I didn't apologize. I think it may pass

1664
01:37:10,840 --> 01:37:13,640
Speaker 1: the most between them, but I'm sure it passes at

1665
01:37:13,680 --> 01:37:16,400
Speaker 1: least a couple times between the band aids. Among the

1666
01:37:16,439 --> 01:37:19,160
Speaker 1: band aids, yeah, I feel like they are often talking

1667
01:37:19,360 --> 01:37:25,000
Speaker 1: about the male members of Stillwater, but yea or well, yeah,

1668
01:37:25,080 --> 01:37:28,240
Speaker 1: we talk about music, question mark. I always forget to

1669
01:37:28,240 --> 01:37:33,000
Speaker 1: pay attention. Famously, I am almost famous for not remembering

1670
01:37:33,680 --> 01:37:36,200
Speaker 1: how to do our show. I was gonna say it

1671
01:37:36,280 --> 01:37:41,160
Speaker 1: might pass for that wonderful discussion between the band aids,

1672
01:37:41,640 --> 01:37:44,080
Speaker 1: Sapphire saying that she needs to get into a room

1673
01:37:44,160 --> 01:37:47,679
Speaker 1: and have a valium. I think that might that might

1674
01:37:48,000 --> 01:37:54,280
Speaker 1: count Mike. My favorite pass was when Anita says, feck you, mom,

1675
01:37:54,680 --> 01:37:58,679
Speaker 1: and then Elaine says her sister did it. She used

1676
01:37:58,680 --> 01:38:03,080
Speaker 1: the effort in Little Little Williams like I think she said, fete,

1677
01:38:03,160 --> 01:38:07,000
Speaker 1: what's missing the letter you? And then Elaine was like,

1678
01:38:07,040 --> 01:38:10,400
Speaker 1: I gotta hand it to him there, Yeah, Elane. I mean,

1679
01:38:10,439 --> 01:38:13,120
Speaker 1: I think Lane, there's so much going on with Elane

1680
01:38:13,120 --> 01:38:14,960
Speaker 1: and I wish that. I mean, will you get a

1681
01:38:14,960 --> 01:38:17,360
Speaker 1: good amount of Elane and you get like a single

1682
01:38:17,439 --> 01:38:21,240
Speaker 1: parent in the seventies. We know what her job is,

1683
01:38:21,360 --> 01:38:24,040
Speaker 1: we know like stuff you wouldn't normally know in a

1684
01:38:24,120 --> 01:38:26,600
Speaker 1: movie like this. I will say that there is a

1685
01:38:26,640 --> 01:38:29,519
Speaker 1: sequence in the untitled version as we were talking about

1686
01:38:29,560 --> 01:38:31,920
Speaker 1: like what are her beliefs as this, like maybe she's

1687
01:38:31,920 --> 01:38:34,479
Speaker 1: a hippie. There is an extended discussion at the beginning

1688
01:38:34,520 --> 01:38:37,040
Speaker 1: of the movie where she stops somebody who is painting

1689
01:38:37,120 --> 01:38:40,920
Speaker 1: Mary xmis on a storefront and she goes on like

1690
01:38:40,960 --> 01:38:44,519
Speaker 1: a five minute diatribe about how it's either marry Christmas

1691
01:38:44,640 --> 01:38:49,000
Speaker 1: or happy Holidays because ords have meaning. That says a

1692
01:38:49,000 --> 01:38:53,679
Speaker 1: lot about her as a person. It does based on

1693
01:38:54,200 --> 01:38:57,080
Speaker 1: Cameron Crowe's own mother, It's true and I guess she

1694
01:38:57,280 --> 01:38:59,920
Speaker 1: was like on set a lot, Yeah, to keep any

1695
01:39:00,439 --> 01:39:03,960
Speaker 1: why couldn't you have high hired family dispars Everyone worked

1696
01:39:03,960 --> 01:39:10,800
Speaker 1: on this anyways. But let's get to the metric that

1697
01:39:10,960 --> 01:39:14,240
Speaker 1: really matters. The nipple scale shall exactly zero to five

1698
01:39:14,320 --> 01:39:18,720
Speaker 1: nipples based on how the movie fares when examining it

1699
01:39:18,800 --> 01:39:26,200
Speaker 1: through an intersectional feminist lens. Oh, well, I would probably

1700
01:39:26,280 --> 01:39:30,920
Speaker 1: only give this a nipple because for the potential that

1701
01:39:31,360 --> 01:39:34,840
Speaker 1: ends up being squandered. But as far as like Penny

1702
01:39:34,920 --> 01:39:39,040
Speaker 1: Lane and the other band aids circumstances and their situation,

1703
01:39:39,439 --> 01:39:43,200
Speaker 1: there's a very interesting story there that just simply goes

1704
01:39:44,040 --> 01:39:50,559
Speaker 1: almost entirely unexplored by Cameron Crow and the other kind

1705
01:39:50,560 --> 01:39:54,240
Speaker 1: of creative forces behind this movie, because it's more interested

1706
01:39:54,280 --> 01:39:58,120
Speaker 1: in telling, ultimately a story about what it's like to

1707
01:39:58,200 --> 01:40:02,160
Speaker 1: be a young teenage boy journalist swept up in the

1708
01:40:02,200 --> 01:40:05,240
Speaker 1: cool world of rock and roll. And even though those

1709
01:40:05,320 --> 01:40:09,320
Speaker 1: rock and rollers are pieces of shit who absolutely abuse

1710
01:40:09,640 --> 01:40:15,000
Speaker 1: women and are predators and creeps, at the end of

1711
01:40:15,000 --> 01:40:17,439
Speaker 1: the day, aren't they still kind of cool? But ultim

1712
01:40:17,439 --> 01:40:21,440
Speaker 1: believe they deserve a redemption arc At the end, Russell

1713
01:40:21,880 --> 01:40:25,200
Speaker 1: actually was a pretty good guy who deserves all the

1714
01:40:25,280 --> 01:40:28,200
Speaker 1: success he got, which is how the movie feels. This

1715
01:40:28,240 --> 01:40:30,560
Speaker 1: is how the movie. They're like, he's yeah, he was flawed.

1716
01:40:30,880 --> 01:40:33,400
Speaker 1: But would I hire him to consult on my movie

1717
01:40:33,400 --> 01:40:37,320
Speaker 1: in thirty years I guess I would. And yeah, the question, yeah,

1718
01:40:37,360 --> 01:40:39,639
Speaker 1: we never know if like Russell and Leslie, I mean,

1719
01:40:39,680 --> 01:40:43,160
Speaker 1: it's eluded that maybe they aren't together. I don't know.

1720
01:40:43,320 --> 01:40:45,600
Speaker 1: It could very well be that she decided after a

1721
01:40:45,640 --> 01:40:48,679
Speaker 1: couple of weeks that their toxic relationship is worth keeping.

1722
01:40:49,880 --> 01:40:53,599
Speaker 1: I'd like to believe that he never cheated again. But again,

1723
01:40:53,760 --> 01:40:57,599
Speaker 1: to go back to Roger Daldry's autobiography, he could also

1724
01:40:57,680 --> 01:41:00,400
Speaker 1: have just been the guy that, in twenty years or

1725
01:41:00,400 --> 01:41:03,080
Speaker 1: thirty years would write a Stillwater biography where he says,

1726
01:41:03,120 --> 01:41:06,760
Speaker 1: I have illegitimate children, but my wife understood that what

1727
01:41:06,840 --> 01:41:09,360
Speaker 1: happens on the road stays on the road, and we're

1728
01:41:09,439 --> 01:41:11,760
Speaker 1: not going to talk about all of the cheating I did.

1729
01:41:11,960 --> 01:41:14,160
Speaker 1: I have three children from it. But you know, you

1730
01:41:14,160 --> 01:41:18,439
Speaker 1: don't need to know the details. You're like, sir, sir,

1731
01:41:19,200 --> 01:41:22,640
Speaker 1: there this is I mean, yeah, this is like anything

1732
01:41:22,680 --> 01:41:26,080
Speaker 1: I hear about rock history inherently stresses me out, which

1733
01:41:26,120 --> 01:41:28,479
Speaker 1: is why maybe this is just like not my genre,

1734
01:41:28,600 --> 01:41:31,080
Speaker 1: because you do have to like like you're saying Christ

1735
01:41:31,080 --> 01:41:34,120
Speaker 1: and like compartmentalize so many different parts of your brain

1736
01:41:34,160 --> 01:41:36,599
Speaker 1: to be able to engage with it where it's trying

1737
01:41:36,640 --> 01:41:39,840
Speaker 1: to come at you. It's like my mom grew up

1738
01:41:39,880 --> 01:41:42,040
Speaker 1: in the seventies and she always tells me stories and

1739
01:41:42,120 --> 01:41:44,800
Speaker 1: they always culminate with me saying how did you not die?

1740
01:41:45,240 --> 01:41:47,679
Speaker 1: Like how are you not on a block curtain? Because

1741
01:41:47,720 --> 01:41:50,960
Speaker 1: every story is horrible? And she says to me all

1742
01:41:51,000 --> 01:41:54,040
Speaker 1: the time, if you were there, just got it. And

1743
01:41:54,080 --> 01:41:56,400
Speaker 1: I think that that's like the thing is that, like

1744
01:41:56,439 --> 01:41:59,439
Speaker 1: if you lived in that time, it makes more sense

1745
01:41:59,439 --> 01:42:02,400
Speaker 1: than us as outside observers. So maybe that's Cameron Crowe's

1746
01:42:02,400 --> 01:42:05,240
Speaker 1: whole thing, Like you had to be there, man, Like

1747
01:42:05,320 --> 01:42:07,400
Speaker 1: you know, it's like me trying to explain the beanie

1748
01:42:07,479 --> 01:42:11,639
Speaker 1: baby thing to somebody likes you had to be there.

1749
01:42:10,680 --> 01:42:14,040
Speaker 1: I can't. I can't explain that to you now. I

1750
01:42:14,080 --> 01:42:16,720
Speaker 1: mean you missed it. Oh I've tried to explain it

1751
01:42:16,760 --> 01:42:20,519
Speaker 1: to people and no one fucking gets it there. But no,

1752
01:42:20,760 --> 01:42:23,479
Speaker 1: I think you're right. And but again that that would

1753
01:42:23,479 --> 01:42:27,360
Speaker 1: only be elevated by him hiring Pamela des Bars because

1754
01:42:27,360 --> 01:42:29,400
Speaker 1: she was also there. And it's like, at the end

1755
01:42:29,400 --> 01:42:31,599
Speaker 1: of the day, the real winner is Pamela des Bars.

1756
01:42:31,680 --> 01:42:34,120
Speaker 1: I think we all agreed yes, because she's she's been

1757
01:42:34,120 --> 01:42:39,879
Speaker 1: plugging her this entire Yes. In conclusion, the movie's failure

1758
01:42:39,920 --> 01:42:44,400
Speaker 1: to understand various nuances across a bunch of different topics,

1759
01:42:44,960 --> 01:42:50,479
Speaker 1: most horrifyingly, the movie's failure to understand consent. So yeah,

1760
01:42:50,640 --> 01:42:54,240
Speaker 1: one nipple for the female characters we do get who

1761
01:42:54,520 --> 01:42:57,880
Speaker 1: I would have liked to see more of potential was squandered.

1762
01:42:58,360 --> 01:43:04,320
Speaker 1: One nipple all give to Doris the Bus. I'll give it,

1763
01:43:04,400 --> 01:43:08,320
Speaker 1: I guess a nipple and a half. I'll I'll skew

1764
01:43:08,360 --> 01:43:11,479
Speaker 1: you up a little bit, and I'll bisect a nipple

1765
01:43:11,600 --> 01:43:14,880
Speaker 1: for because I do think that like Penny Lane is

1766
01:43:14,920 --> 01:43:19,960
Speaker 1: a very rich character who is um, I think miss misused.

1767
01:43:20,000 --> 01:43:23,559
Speaker 1: I would be interested to see the other cut in full,

1768
01:43:23,800 --> 01:43:28,200
Speaker 1: where you do get more context for what her history is. UM.

1769
01:43:28,240 --> 01:43:30,519
Speaker 1: I don't know. Maybe I'm just like bringing my Litlita

1770
01:43:30,600 --> 01:43:32,640
Speaker 1: podcast up to the to the table here, but I

1771
01:43:32,680 --> 01:43:36,960
Speaker 1: am always like interested in a young woman who is

1772
01:43:37,040 --> 01:43:42,240
Speaker 1: sort of just being projected upon like fucking wildfire and

1773
01:43:42,320 --> 01:43:45,920
Speaker 1: has to develop a way to navigate that. UM. Like

1774
01:43:46,040 --> 01:43:50,040
Speaker 1: young women, especially the further back you go historically, like

1775
01:43:50,160 --> 01:43:55,840
Speaker 1: are always projected upon and viewed through this very through

1776
01:43:56,040 --> 01:43:58,760
Speaker 1: the fucking mail gaze. God, And now I sound like

1777
01:43:58,800 --> 01:44:04,160
Speaker 1: a freshman in college. But in all serios, like, I

1778
01:44:04,240 --> 01:44:09,320
Speaker 1: think it's interesting that Penny Lane slash Lady has to

1779
01:44:09,840 --> 01:44:13,400
Speaker 1: develop a persona in order to navigate the world with

1780
01:44:13,479 --> 01:44:17,160
Speaker 1: some feeling of power and belonging, and of course that

1781
01:44:17,320 --> 01:44:20,679
Speaker 1: is still not going to be enough in a place

1782
01:44:20,680 --> 01:44:23,880
Speaker 1: where she's not being looked out for by anybody really,

1783
01:44:23,960 --> 01:44:26,639
Speaker 1: And I think that there's just there's just more there

1784
01:44:26,760 --> 01:44:30,600
Speaker 1: than Cameron Crowe was interested in exploring, and she was

1785
01:44:30,600 --> 01:44:34,519
Speaker 1: I think misused in like you're describing Kristen as like

1786
01:44:34,520 --> 01:44:37,840
Speaker 1: the Cameron Crowe woman, where ultimately her purpose is to

1787
01:44:37,920 --> 01:44:43,120
Speaker 1: show Russell and William that life is epic and boys

1788
01:44:43,200 --> 01:44:46,920
Speaker 1: can be forgiven for all of their trespasses and it's

1789
01:44:46,960 --> 01:44:49,240
Speaker 1: all good. And I just wanted you to hang out

1790
01:44:49,320 --> 01:44:52,479
Speaker 1: the whole time, ignore all the assaults and my lack

1791
01:44:52,520 --> 01:44:55,600
Speaker 1: of ability to navigate the world with a sense of identity.

1792
01:44:56,360 --> 01:44:59,200
Speaker 1: But I think that that was there. It just he

1793
01:44:59,320 --> 01:45:02,439
Speaker 1: just wasn't interest did in it, which is frustrating. I

1794
01:45:02,520 --> 01:45:05,360
Speaker 1: like Anita a lot. I wish that there was more Anita.

1795
01:45:05,640 --> 01:45:07,360
Speaker 1: Maybe not in the framework of that story, it wouldn't

1796
01:45:07,360 --> 01:45:08,960
Speaker 1: have worked, But I just thought it was a good

1797
01:45:09,000 --> 01:45:12,080
Speaker 1: performance and a good character. I like Lane. I wish

1798
01:45:12,920 --> 01:45:15,960
Speaker 1: that we could have understood her a little more as well.

1799
01:45:16,040 --> 01:45:18,599
Speaker 1: And I don't know. I mean, there's no shortage of

1800
01:45:18,680 --> 01:45:21,080
Speaker 1: interesting women in this narrative, and I just feel like

1801
01:45:21,479 --> 01:45:25,240
Speaker 1: they're not really focused on by the story, and that

1802
01:45:25,479 --> 01:45:28,439
Speaker 1: is a bummer. Also the consent, I mean, and then

1803
01:45:28,479 --> 01:45:30,719
Speaker 1: I'll go everything you said gaitly about the consent stuff,

1804
01:45:30,720 --> 01:45:36,599
Speaker 1: which is complete dogshit and forgivable. Yeah, And you know,

1805
01:45:36,800 --> 01:45:40,560
Speaker 1: on the part of the filmmaker prioritizing bringing on consultants

1806
01:45:40,600 --> 01:45:44,640
Speaker 1: who would not bring any sort of critical lens to

1807
01:45:44,720 --> 01:45:47,759
Speaker 1: this era, I feel like it's kind of a misstep

1808
01:45:48,320 --> 01:45:50,599
Speaker 1: on his part. So given a nipple and a half,

1809
01:45:51,320 --> 01:45:55,360
Speaker 1: I'm going to give one to lady and I'll give

1810
01:45:55,400 --> 01:46:00,559
Speaker 1: the other half to Anita. Nice Christ, how about you?

1811
01:46:01,000 --> 01:46:05,320
Speaker 1: Oh gosh, I mean, I I compartmentalize a lot with this.

1812
01:46:05,880 --> 01:46:08,559
Speaker 1: But if if we're looking at it, you know, just

1813
01:46:08,960 --> 01:46:13,240
Speaker 1: watching it, especially somebody watching it today, you know, it's

1814
01:46:13,280 --> 01:46:15,439
Speaker 1: it's one of those moments in time where I'm like yeah,

1815
01:46:15,479 --> 01:46:19,120
Speaker 1: but in two thousand, man, it was great. I mean

1816
01:46:19,160 --> 01:46:22,479
Speaker 1: it gets it gets it gets a two. Uh you know,

1817
01:46:22,600 --> 01:46:25,760
Speaker 1: I'd give it higher just purely off of the nostalgia

1818
01:46:25,800 --> 01:46:28,320
Speaker 1: and you know how it affected me as a person

1819
01:46:28,360 --> 01:46:30,960
Speaker 1: and as a writer, Like it's it's up there with

1820
01:46:31,040 --> 01:46:33,680
Speaker 1: like you know, I tell people the two movies that

1821
01:46:33,760 --> 01:46:36,920
Speaker 1: define me are like my girl in this uh you know,

1822
01:46:37,120 --> 01:46:40,400
Speaker 1: in terms of like who I am as a person. Um.

1823
01:46:40,680 --> 01:46:43,840
Speaker 1: But at the same time, yeah, I mean reading the

1824
01:46:43,880 --> 01:46:46,400
Speaker 1: stuff that I've read, like growing as a person. It's

1825
01:46:46,400 --> 01:46:48,479
Speaker 1: one of those movies, you know, much like Garden State

1826
01:46:48,600 --> 01:46:51,120
Speaker 1: is a great example going back and like being like,

1827
01:46:51,240 --> 01:46:54,720
Speaker 1: oh god, I have real issues with this now, um

1828
01:46:54,960 --> 01:46:56,759
Speaker 1: you know, but I mean as a piece of film,

1829
01:46:56,800 --> 01:46:58,920
Speaker 1: I still look at it and I still you know,

1830
01:46:58,960 --> 01:47:02,040
Speaker 1: the soundtrack and the time period in the la story,

1831
01:47:02,360 --> 01:47:05,880
Speaker 1: like the acting. It's I love it for all of

1832
01:47:05,920 --> 01:47:08,840
Speaker 1: those things. I and I have to put all of

1833
01:47:08,880 --> 01:47:11,920
Speaker 1: the problems in a in a separate little container where

1834
01:47:11,920 --> 01:47:14,639
Speaker 1: I'm like, I love it, but uh and the butt

1835
01:47:14,840 --> 01:47:18,880
Speaker 1: gets longer every time I talk about it. Um, So

1836
01:47:18,920 --> 01:47:21,439
Speaker 1: I love it, but you know, Cameron Crow and I

1837
01:47:21,479 --> 01:47:26,040
Speaker 1: know it's got problems, and I am glad that Cameron

1838
01:47:26,080 --> 01:47:28,519
Speaker 1: Crowe seems to know it has problems. Now. That is

1839
01:47:28,560 --> 01:47:31,840
Speaker 1: like again, a fun, bare minimum thing to to observe of,

1840
01:47:31,920 --> 01:47:34,439
Speaker 1: like someone who's able to engage with the criticism of

1841
01:47:34,439 --> 01:47:38,040
Speaker 1: their work over time. H is not nothing. However, the

1842
01:47:38,080 --> 01:47:43,759
Speaker 1: crimes of Aloha will never be forgotten. Um all right, um, Kristen,

1843
01:47:43,880 --> 01:47:46,439
Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining us. Thank you. We're

1844
01:47:46,479 --> 01:47:49,840
Speaker 1: a big fan. We cite your writing frequently, so it's

1845
01:47:49,880 --> 01:47:54,200
Speaker 1: so nice to have you finally on the show. Come

1846
01:47:54,200 --> 01:47:58,519
Speaker 1: back anytime. I mean I'm always around to talk mess

1847
01:47:58,560 --> 01:48:05,240
Speaker 1: and feminist them and where the two intertwine. So yeah,

1848
01:48:04,360 --> 01:48:08,800
Speaker 1: we'll have to team up again. I'm ready. So you guys,

1849
01:48:09,080 --> 01:48:11,840
Speaker 1: you guys were my first like la event that I

1850
01:48:12,400 --> 01:48:15,880
Speaker 1: ever I ever saw came to our show at the Ruby.

1851
01:48:15,920 --> 01:48:18,280
Speaker 1: I forget which movie it was, but it feels so

1852
01:48:18,320 --> 01:48:20,320
Speaker 1: long ago. I mean it must have been like maybe

1853
01:48:20,520 --> 01:48:22,960
Speaker 1: three or four years ago. Yeah, it was a robe

1854
01:48:23,000 --> 01:48:28,160
Speaker 1: in Michelle. Oh maybe God yes, yeah, wow it was

1855
01:48:28,200 --> 01:48:31,479
Speaker 1: a simpler time. Yes, I've come full circle. So yeah,

1856
01:48:31,520 --> 01:48:33,960
Speaker 1: well here you are, and we'll have you back. Where

1857
01:48:33,960 --> 01:48:37,639
Speaker 1: can people um follow you online? Check out your writing,

1858
01:48:37,760 --> 01:48:41,080
Speaker 1: check out your book. Yeah, so I'm I'm over at

1859
01:48:41,120 --> 01:48:43,120
Speaker 1: The Wrap The Wrap dot com you can search the

1860
01:48:43,200 --> 01:48:46,479
Speaker 1: Rap Kristin Lopez. You'll find my my writing there. I'm

1861
01:48:46,560 --> 01:48:49,479
Speaker 1: on all the social media platforms, probably to my detriment,

1862
01:48:49,520 --> 01:48:52,519
Speaker 1: but I'm most active on Twitter at Journey's Underscore Film

1863
01:48:52,880 --> 01:48:55,600
Speaker 1: and Instagram at Kristin Lopez eighty eight. And yes, but

1864
01:48:55,680 --> 01:48:58,120
Speaker 1: have you read the book fifty two literary Gems that

1865
01:48:58,200 --> 01:49:01,439
Speaker 1: inspired our classic or favorite Holmes is out merged seventh.

1866
01:49:01,840 --> 01:49:04,960
Speaker 1: You can buy that wherever you get books. I know

1867
01:49:05,040 --> 01:49:08,840
Speaker 1: a lot of authors hype buying independent, but honestly, I

1868
01:49:08,880 --> 01:49:11,479
Speaker 1: will just be happy for anybody who buys it anywhere.

1869
01:49:11,600 --> 01:49:14,840
Speaker 1: So it's wherever you can get your books. And I

1870
01:49:14,880 --> 01:49:16,960
Speaker 1: hope to do a lot of stuff in the LA

1871
01:49:17,040 --> 01:49:18,720
Speaker 1: area when the book comes out. So if you're you're

1872
01:49:18,840 --> 01:49:22,840
Speaker 1: around and you buy it, let me know ooh amazing.

1873
01:49:23,040 --> 01:49:27,240
Speaker 1: We'll be there and you can follow us on social

1874
01:49:27,280 --> 01:49:30,719
Speaker 1: media Twitter and Instagram. At Bechtel Cast, you can scoot

1875
01:49:30,800 --> 01:49:35,280
Speaker 1: over to our Patreon aka Patreon. It's five bucks a month.

1876
01:49:35,280 --> 01:49:38,599
Speaker 1: It gets you two bonus episodes every month. That's at

1877
01:49:38,640 --> 01:49:42,519
Speaker 1: patreon dot com slash Bechtel Cash. That's where you can

1878
01:49:42,560 --> 01:49:46,760
Speaker 1: find the Pinocchio Wars episode that Kaitlin was dumping on

1879
01:49:46,960 --> 01:49:50,920
Speaker 1: earlier zamecas found dead ditch all right, you can also

1880
01:49:50,960 --> 01:49:54,000
Speaker 1: get our merch at public dot com, slash v Bechtel

1881
01:49:54,120 --> 01:49:59,320
Speaker 1: cast And with that, let's let's let's load onto Doris

1882
01:49:59,360 --> 01:50:01,160
Speaker 1: and get the fuck out of here. What are you saying?

1883
01:50:01,560 --> 01:50:06,920
Speaker 1: I'm a golden god jumps into pool, Bye bye,