WEBVTT - Murder on the Range PT 1 

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<v Speaker 1>I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the

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<v Speaker 1>last twenty five years writing about true crime.

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<v Speaker 2>And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

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<v Speaker 2>worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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<v Speaker 1>Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most

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<v Speaker 1>compelling true crimes.

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<v Speaker 2>And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring

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<v Speaker 2>new insights to old mysteries.

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<v Speaker 1>Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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<v Speaker 1>cases through a twenty first century lens.

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<v Speaker 2>Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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<v Speaker 1>This is Buried Bones.

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<v Speaker 2>Bay, Kate. How are you doing?

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<v Speaker 1>I'm doing great, Paul. I wonder if there's anything different

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<v Speaker 1>about me that you're noticing.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, your hair is different, very good.

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<v Speaker 1>What's different about it? Do you think?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, you're you've got it brushed back.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, hold on, I'll make it clear.

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<v Speaker 2>Is it shorter? Is it curly?

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<v Speaker 1>Curly? Yes? I am a girl with curls, and I

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<v Speaker 1>straighten my hair on special occasions. I et bery bones

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<v Speaker 1>and some book events. But I am definitely naturally curly,

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<v Speaker 1>like one of my kids is. So I would like

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<v Speaker 1>to say, Officially, I wanted to try something new, different look,

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<v Speaker 1>just see, you know, spice things up. Unofficially, I didn't

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<v Speaker 1>feel like straightening my hair.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, so this is you just just natural Kate today, right?

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, well, I mean I did some stuff, but

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<v Speaker 1>normally I have a you know, I mean I've got

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<v Speaker 1>my glasses on. Normally, I'm mean I have a ponytail going.

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<v Speaker 1>So this is a little different. So we'll have to see.

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<v Speaker 1>I don't want to take a pole or anything, but

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<v Speaker 1>I might go back and forth unless unless there's like

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<v Speaker 1>a mass objection trend that happens, which I don't think

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<v Speaker 1>it will.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you look great, thank you.

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<v Speaker 1>And I also want my kid to know the one

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<v Speaker 1>who has a real gosh, he has gorgeous long, curly hair.

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<v Speaker 1>I want heard it know that. You know, I don't

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<v Speaker 1>always when I go fancy, sometimes the curls are the

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<v Speaker 1>way to go, you know.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I like it.

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<v Speaker 1>Is this the same haircut you've always had high school everything?

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<v Speaker 1>And don't joke about your thinning hair thing? Hair is fine.

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<v Speaker 1>I know men are sensitive, but I mean, have you

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<v Speaker 1>ever changed up your look very much?

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<v Speaker 2>No? You know, it's definitely different than when I was

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<v Speaker 2>in high school, you know, back in the eighties, kind

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<v Speaker 2>of the feathered back hair style for you know, the

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<v Speaker 2>guys was in and so I had a part of

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<v Speaker 2>down the middle and feathered back. And I also had

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<v Speaker 2>a mustache in high school throughout high school, which when

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<v Speaker 2>I look back at my yearbook photos, I was like,

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<v Speaker 2>what the hell were you thinking, Paul, But you know,

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<v Speaker 2>it is what it is. Basically, when I went to

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<v Speaker 2>the Police Academy in nineteen ninety four, you know, I

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<v Speaker 2>was working in law enforcement, and though I could have

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<v Speaker 2>worn my hair differently pretty much, it was always just short.

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<v Speaker 2>You talk about the thinning hair, you know. At one

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<v Speaker 2>point when I noticed I was my hair was thinning,

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<v Speaker 2>I decided, you know, I'll just do the shave at

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<v Speaker 2>bro and I did a really close buzz cut. And

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<v Speaker 2>I remember coming home and my wife and my oldest

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<v Speaker 2>daughter they both looked at me. They saw my haircut,

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<v Speaker 2>and in essence they both started to dry heave because

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<v Speaker 2>I looked horrible. I'm not one of those guys that

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<v Speaker 2>can be bald and look good. Unfortunately they started to heave. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>but right now, my hair is probably the longest it's

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<v Speaker 2>been in a quarter century. To be frank. Really, I'm

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<v Speaker 2>growing it out a little little bit, and that way

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<v Speaker 2>I can next time I get it cut, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>I'll give the you know, the the barber some options.

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<v Speaker 2>Maybe I'll change my look up, maybe I'll shave it

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<v Speaker 2>off you. I'll stay tuned.

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<v Speaker 1>You should talk to your wife and your daughter before

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<v Speaker 1>you do anything. Clearly demoid any trauma. Alexis our producers

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<v Speaker 1>tiny med eval, and she thinks we both need to

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<v Speaker 1>give her our high school photos for social media.

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<v Speaker 2>Like a senior yearbook photo or the feather back where

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<v Speaker 2>you're talking.

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<v Speaker 1>Yes, the Miami vice, I think is probably what it is.

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<v Speaker 2>I've got my eyearbooks right up right across the room

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<v Speaker 2>from me. I can you know, scan something and get

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<v Speaker 2>it to Alexis if that's what she's asking for. And

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<v Speaker 2>I don't have a problem with that.

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<v Speaker 1>We pretty much always do what Alexis asks us to do,

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<v Speaker 1>so I think we're going to have to do that.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, listen, I was.

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<v Speaker 1>I was not always at my best in high school either,

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<v Speaker 1>and I can't remember. I have a bunch of my friends.

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<v Speaker 1>I have a group of seven girlfriends who are my

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<v Speaker 1>best friends. From a couple of them, Tina and Angie

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<v Speaker 1>starting from middle school, so for a gazillion years, and

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<v Speaker 1>we always look at high school yearbook stuff and make

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<v Speaker 1>fun of ourselves. So I'm not always at my best

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<v Speaker 1>in high school. But the whole point is that in

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<v Speaker 1>high school I wore my hair down. I never wore

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<v Speaker 1>it as a ponytail. And I don't know when I started,

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<v Speaker 1>probably the mom thing when I was just like, I'm

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<v Speaker 1>either going to tear my hair out or I have

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<v Speaker 1>to put in a ponytail.

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<v Speaker 2>So keep it easy right now.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, So we'll see how this goes. I mean, don't

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<v Speaker 1>be surprised if I go back to my normal straightened hair,

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<v Speaker 1>because I do wear it curly so often. But you know,

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<v Speaker 1>I like to change stuff up and you know all that.

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<v Speaker 1>So there you go.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I'll stay on top of you.

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<v Speaker 1>How's that? That's the I think the key ingredient to

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<v Speaker 1>any relationship is you're always kind of throwing curveballs at

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<v Speaker 1>your person, you know, kind of like, well what do

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<v Speaker 1>you think about this? So there we go.

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<v Speaker 2>Keep it exciting, right.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, I think we'll say right now talking about keeping

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<v Speaker 1>and exciting, that's where we're going. This is the furthest

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<v Speaker 1>back we've been I would have to say in quite

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<v Speaker 1>a while, we're in Civil War era when we talk

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<v Speaker 1>about this story, which as it unfolds, real history geeks

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<v Speaker 1>might recognize, you know, where we're going with this, So

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<v Speaker 1>we will see what you think.

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<v Speaker 2>That sounds good.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, let's set the scene. Get ready for a history lesson,

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<v Speaker 1>mister Paul Holes. I'm game, and we are actually going

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<v Speaker 1>to be in your state. We're going to Colorado. Oh

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<v Speaker 1>so it's actually not even Colorado the state yet, it's

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<v Speaker 1>Colorado Territory. Do you know much about Colorado history, just

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<v Speaker 1>as far as establishing borders and all of that kind

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<v Speaker 1>of stuff. Who was there before?

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<v Speaker 2>No, you know, I don't think I know anything. I

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<v Speaker 2>actually know Texas better because I had to. I did

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<v Speaker 2>seventh grade in Texas, and at least at the time

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<v Speaker 2>I went to school seventh grade, you had to have

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<v Speaker 2>go through Texas history.

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<v Speaker 1>And what a history. Okay, let's start with we're going

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<v Speaker 1>to Colorado and we are in March of eighteen sixty three,

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<v Speaker 1>smack in the middle of the Civil War. The Civil

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<v Speaker 1>War doesn't have anything to do with it, but you know,

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<v Speaker 1>you have to think about how much the country's expanding

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<v Speaker 1>at this point. You know, there's the wars happening. There

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<v Speaker 1>are people divided in not only states and cities and

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<v Speaker 1>families really over you know who they should side with.

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<v Speaker 1>So in Colorado Territory, officially its union, but very very

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<v Speaker 1>very divided. And I think part of that has to

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<v Speaker 1>do with the history. So I tried to really streamline this.

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<v Speaker 1>Ali did a great job, one of our researchers. Ali

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<v Speaker 1>did a great job giving me a ton of history,

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<v Speaker 1>and I wanted to streamline it because I just thought

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<v Speaker 1>you were just going to jump off a bridge or

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<v Speaker 1>something like three pages of history, which I adore. So, Okay,

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<v Speaker 1>we are in now Colorado Territory. We're in the southernmost portion,

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<v Speaker 1>which is called the San Louis Valley. Are you familiar

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<v Speaker 1>with that area at all? I don't know Colorado very

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<v Speaker 1>well as far as geography goes.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I'm fairly sure that probably on my way out

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<v Speaker 2>to Telluride, I went down south and then went west

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<v Speaker 2>to get out to Telluride, and San Luis Valley sounds familiar.

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<v Speaker 2>It's either that or I had consulted with Wichita, Texas

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<v Speaker 2>authorities and had driven back from Wichita Falls and came

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<v Speaker 2>up through New Mexico and then the southern part of

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<v Speaker 2>southeast part of Colorado, and so maybe that's also where

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<v Speaker 2>what I'm thinking of.

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<v Speaker 1>My experience with Colorado honestly is pretty much confined to Denver,

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<v Speaker 1>a little bit of skiing, and then I went to

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<v Speaker 1>Colorado City, I think is where I went to. So

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<v Speaker 1>the people who live in the Colorado Territory, this area

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<v Speaker 1>used to be Mexican citizens because it was with Mexico

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<v Speaker 1>twenty years earlier than it became New Mexico. So when

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<v Speaker 1>the property ownership happened with Mexico, you have all of

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<v Speaker 1>these people who have different plots of land. That's the ownership.

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<v Speaker 1>These plots of land go back for generations. When the

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<v Speaker 1>area becomes New Mexico, then you know there's no deeds

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<v Speaker 1>or paperwork really to back it up, and it doesn't

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<v Speaker 1>seem to matter because culturally New Mexico was really aligned

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<v Speaker 1>with the people of Mexico, so there were no problems.

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<v Speaker 1>You see where I'm heading here, there's a lot of

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<v Speaker 1>discontent when we have a new population come in. So

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<v Speaker 1>before this new population comes in, the residents mostly live

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<v Speaker 1>in what's called plazas. These are small adobe villages that

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<v Speaker 1>house a couple of different families. When this part of

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<v Speaker 1>the area, the southern part of the area of what

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<v Speaker 1>is now Colorado becomes a part of the territory, so

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<v Speaker 1>you know, New Mexico gives it up, or it's taken

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<v Speaker 1>from New Mexico and it's made into this new boundary.

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<v Speaker 1>This happens in eighteen sixty. So there had been a

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<v Speaker 1>gold rush, which I probably you know, I always think

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<v Speaker 1>about the California gold Rush, but this is a Colorado

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<v Speaker 1>gold rush. Do you know much about that?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I wouldn't say I know a lot about the

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<v Speaker 2>history of the gold rush. But one of the areas

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<v Speaker 2>that I go with my jeep because I live on

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<v Speaker 2>the side of Cheyenne Mountain and within ten minutes I

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<v Speaker 2>can be on the back side of that mountain. And

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<v Speaker 2>there is a road, old stage road that snakes its

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<v Speaker 2>way through the mountains out to Cripple Creek, which is

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<v Speaker 2>where there's this huge mine. And this road used to

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<v Speaker 2>be railroad, and I believe it was for the you know,

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<v Speaker 2>the metals that were being mined out of that mine,

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<v Speaker 2>and some of that I believe was gold, or at

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<v Speaker 2>least there was, you know, one of the one of

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<v Speaker 2>the roads out there is a gold camp road, so

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<v Speaker 2>I'm sure gold was being mined out just on the

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<v Speaker 2>other side of the mountain from where I live.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, And I, like I said, did not know that

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<v Speaker 1>there was a big gold rush in Colorado. There was.

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<v Speaker 1>There are an awful lot of white set flooding the area.

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<v Speaker 1>Now we're going to have problems in that part of

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<v Speaker 1>the territory. You have people who were Mexican residents who

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<v Speaker 1>are now residents of Colorado, and you have white settlers

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<v Speaker 1>coming and taking away land. And so there's one of

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<v Speaker 1>the conflicts. And you know, the other thing is then

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<v Speaker 1>they're saying, these people who were in this territory, they

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<v Speaker 1>have not moved, it's the boundary that's moved. When they

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<v Speaker 1>were in New Mexico, everybody left them alone. When they

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<v Speaker 1>became a part of the Colorado territory, it was much

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<v Speaker 1>more inclined culturally towards the white settlers. And so this

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<v Speaker 1>is where they're not getting any protection, and this is

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<v Speaker 1>where we're having some issues. And all of this is,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, part of this story. So are you following me?

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<v Speaker 2>I'm following you. Yeah, you know, I'm I'm just you know,

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<v Speaker 2>I'm starting to key in on you know, motives for crime.

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<v Speaker 1>Now what is this? This is for me, I would

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<v Speaker 1>call this historical context, right, but as an investigator, it's

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<v Speaker 1>not victimology. What would this be called? Where you need

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<v Speaker 1>to know is this a high crime area or there

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<v Speaker 1>was a riot here, you know, two years ago and

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<v Speaker 1>it might be pertinent. What is there a phrase for that?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, there is a discipline that's environmental criminology, and this

0:12:14.520 --> 0:12:18.160
<v Speaker 2>is how the environment and possibly even the social economic

0:12:18.240 --> 0:12:23.640
<v Speaker 2>aspects within that environment influence criminality. And so now when

0:12:23.679 --> 0:12:29.680
<v Speaker 2>you start talking about Colorado Territory, you're having different people

0:12:29.760 --> 0:12:32.600
<v Speaker 2>coming in and you know, the occupants that have been

0:12:32.640 --> 0:12:36.520
<v Speaker 2>there had a certain lifestyle, and now that lifestyle is

0:12:36.559 --> 0:12:40.280
<v Speaker 2>being influenced and there's going to be conflict that is developing.

0:12:40.520 --> 0:12:44.280
<v Speaker 2>And some of that conflict is developing over the environment

0:12:44.320 --> 0:12:46.920
<v Speaker 2>and what's within the environment, what's within the geography in

0:12:47.240 --> 0:12:50.760
<v Speaker 2>the area. Now, this is on with what you're talking about,

0:12:50.760 --> 0:12:54.280
<v Speaker 2>it's on a much bigger scale. Typically, when I'm going

0:12:54.320 --> 0:12:58.400
<v Speaker 2>into a town or a city and I'm looking at

0:12:58.440 --> 0:13:01.640
<v Speaker 2>a case, I'm wanting to know about, Okay, what is

0:13:01.640 --> 0:13:05.040
<v Speaker 2>this neighborhood like, especially if it was forty years ago

0:13:05.200 --> 0:13:08.480
<v Speaker 2>on a cold case. What was it like then? And

0:13:08.600 --> 0:13:10.840
<v Speaker 2>so that's where I'm starting to take a look at

0:13:10.880 --> 0:13:14.000
<v Speaker 2>what the environment was in which the crime occurred.

0:13:16.920 --> 0:13:20.200
<v Speaker 1>Okay, so we know the environment. It's tension filled, and

0:13:20.240 --> 0:13:22.840
<v Speaker 1>there are an awful lot of former Mexican citizens who

0:13:22.880 --> 0:13:26.240
<v Speaker 1>are saying our land is being taken by white settlers

0:13:26.280 --> 0:13:29.839
<v Speaker 1>and they're not getting kind of any backup from anybody

0:13:29.880 --> 0:13:34.080
<v Speaker 1>who's in leadership with the Colorado Territory. So here's where

0:13:34.120 --> 0:13:36.840
<v Speaker 1>we begin. We'll talk about several things, and you're going

0:13:36.920 --> 0:13:39.520
<v Speaker 1>to ask details, and I probably am not going to

0:13:39.559 --> 0:13:43.160
<v Speaker 1>have the details, but you know, we'll see kind of

0:13:43.200 --> 0:13:46.320
<v Speaker 1>how this unfolds. Just be very understanding if I can't

0:13:46.320 --> 0:13:48.600
<v Speaker 1>answer some of your questions. And no, we're definitely going

0:13:48.640 --> 0:13:51.720
<v Speaker 1>in a particular direction. Okay, Okay, could I be any

0:13:51.720 --> 0:13:53.559
<v Speaker 1>more cryptic? Do you want me to be more cryptic

0:13:53.600 --> 0:13:55.200
<v Speaker 1>than that's pretty cryptic, Kate.

0:13:55.360 --> 0:13:58.079
<v Speaker 2>I'm so used to it now, Kate, I just roll

0:13:58.120 --> 0:13:58.960
<v Speaker 2>with the punches.

0:13:59.200 --> 0:14:01.840
<v Speaker 1>This is to happen, but it might not happen, but

0:14:01.920 --> 0:14:04.320
<v Speaker 1>we'll see. I'll let you know in thirty minutes that's

0:14:04.360 --> 0:14:08.320
<v Speaker 1>gonna happen. That would drive me crazy. Okay. So this

0:14:08.360 --> 0:14:11.880
<v Speaker 1>is March eighteenth eighteen sixty three, and there's a guy

0:14:11.960 --> 0:14:16.400
<v Speaker 1>named Franklin William Bruce, and he has a house that

0:14:16.559 --> 0:14:21.120
<v Speaker 1>is near Canyon City and he owns a saw mill. Okay,

0:14:21.360 --> 0:14:24.600
<v Speaker 1>it sounds like Canyon City in the eighteen sixties, of course,

0:14:24.680 --> 0:14:27.600
<v Speaker 1>like much of the territory would have been farmland, and

0:14:27.600 --> 0:14:31.920
<v Speaker 1>now we have these sawmills. So Franklin is leaving Canyon

0:14:32.040 --> 0:14:34.400
<v Speaker 1>City to go to the sawmill that he owns, which

0:14:34.440 --> 0:14:36.720
<v Speaker 1>is about twelve miles away. So he gets on a

0:14:36.760 --> 0:14:40.480
<v Speaker 1>horse drawn wagon. We're in that era. So Franklin had

0:14:40.480 --> 0:14:44.040
<v Speaker 1>moved to Colorado from Wisconsin about three years earlier, when

0:14:44.040 --> 0:14:46.320
<v Speaker 1>a lot of other people came for the Gold Rush.

0:14:46.600 --> 0:14:50.280
<v Speaker 1>He was a prospector and now he's pivoted to farming

0:14:50.360 --> 0:14:53.880
<v Speaker 1>and selling lumber from his sawmill. He's in his fifties

0:14:53.960 --> 0:14:56.600
<v Speaker 1>and he has a wife named Ruth and four children.

0:14:57.360 --> 0:15:00.640
<v Speaker 1>And there are a couple of kids who old enough

0:15:00.640 --> 0:15:03.200
<v Speaker 1>to work in the sawmill. I will say, boy, that

0:15:03.240 --> 0:15:05.280
<v Speaker 1>could be almost any age if they could hold a

0:15:05.320 --> 0:15:07.000
<v Speaker 1>piece of wood, that would have been a kid who

0:15:07.040 --> 0:15:10.040
<v Speaker 1>could work in a saw mill. So child labor laws

0:15:10.040 --> 0:15:12.280
<v Speaker 1>and everything else, we don't have a great idea of

0:15:12.320 --> 0:15:16.160
<v Speaker 1>the range of the ages of these kids, but it

0:15:16.160 --> 0:15:19.600
<v Speaker 1>doesn't come too much into play. Okay, Franklin's log cabin

0:15:19.680 --> 0:15:22.200
<v Speaker 1>is twelve miles away. He gets on the horse and

0:15:22.200 --> 0:15:26.520
<v Speaker 1>wagon and goes. Sometime later that day, the horses come

0:15:26.600 --> 0:15:29.680
<v Speaker 1>back to the house pulling an empty wagon. I know

0:15:29.760 --> 0:15:31.880
<v Speaker 1>that this is a kind of a question, sort of

0:15:32.000 --> 0:15:34.480
<v Speaker 1>out of left field. But how do they know? I mean,

0:15:34.760 --> 0:15:36.960
<v Speaker 1>how do they know not to stay? Are they looking

0:15:36.960 --> 0:15:40.080
<v Speaker 1>for food? What is happening? Twelve miles that's a long way.

0:15:40.760 --> 0:15:43.840
<v Speaker 2>Well, I think some of our listeners probably have expertise

0:15:43.960 --> 0:15:49.120
<v Speaker 2>with horses. This is I think it's always amazing, you know,

0:15:49.200 --> 0:15:53.160
<v Speaker 2>these types of stories like family dog goes missing and

0:15:53.200 --> 0:15:56.640
<v Speaker 2>then you know they move and you know, years later

0:15:56.680 --> 0:15:58.520
<v Speaker 2>the dog all of a sudden shows up at the

0:15:58.520 --> 0:16:00.680
<v Speaker 2>new locate. How do these animals do that? You know?

0:16:00.760 --> 0:16:04.680
<v Speaker 2>So I just yeah, I think, you know, it's interesting

0:16:04.720 --> 0:16:07.800
<v Speaker 2>with the horses, obviously, it's like, well, we'res Franklin, Bruce,

0:16:08.600 --> 0:16:11.240
<v Speaker 2>you know what happened? Why? You know, why aren't these

0:16:11.280 --> 0:16:15.800
<v Speaker 2>horses tied up at the sawmill? Sounds like something bad

0:16:15.920 --> 0:16:19.400
<v Speaker 2>happened to Franklin and route to the saw mill. But again,

0:16:19.600 --> 0:16:22.280
<v Speaker 2>the horse is coming back. That's that's fascinating. I mean,

0:16:22.280 --> 0:16:24.800
<v Speaker 2>I don't I can't explain it. It's just it's really cool.

0:16:25.120 --> 0:16:28.640
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it is, but alarming to Franklin's family, of course.

0:16:29.200 --> 0:16:33.280
<v Speaker 1>So the newspapers of the time say that his youngest

0:16:33.280 --> 0:16:36.280
<v Speaker 1>son decided to go up I'm assuming, on the horse

0:16:36.280 --> 0:16:38.760
<v Speaker 1>and cart to go figure out what happened to his dad.

0:16:39.120 --> 0:16:42.800
<v Speaker 1>He's referred to in the eighteen sixties early nineteen hundreds

0:16:42.800 --> 0:16:46.560
<v Speaker 1>in these articles as a young boy, which to me

0:16:46.920 --> 0:16:50.440
<v Speaker 1>could be pretty young, because they probably would not have

0:16:50.480 --> 0:16:52.320
<v Speaker 1>set a twelve year old and or a thirteen year

0:16:52.320 --> 0:16:54.360
<v Speaker 1>old working on a farm in a saw mill as

0:16:54.400 --> 0:16:56.400
<v Speaker 1>a young boy. That would have been a young man.

0:16:57.040 --> 0:16:59.000
<v Speaker 1>So he could have been an eight year old. I

0:16:59.000 --> 0:17:01.000
<v Speaker 1>don't know why he went. I don't know where the

0:17:01.040 --> 0:17:05.120
<v Speaker 1>older kids were, but he went, and he came back

0:17:05.160 --> 0:17:08.760
<v Speaker 1>and said, Dad looks dead. So he had been shot

0:17:08.840 --> 0:17:12.160
<v Speaker 1>through the heart. He was carrying a handgun. I don't

0:17:12.200 --> 0:17:14.960
<v Speaker 1>know what kind, but it's still in its holster. There's

0:17:14.960 --> 0:17:17.840
<v Speaker 1>conflicting accounts about whether he was found inside the sawmill

0:17:18.280 --> 0:17:20.920
<v Speaker 1>or if he had been outside the sawmill near where

0:17:20.960 --> 0:17:24.439
<v Speaker 1>his horse had been grazing. What certain is that he

0:17:24.520 --> 0:17:28.399
<v Speaker 1>had been shot once. There is an account in several

0:17:28.400 --> 0:17:31.520
<v Speaker 1>of the newspapers that a cross had been carved into

0:17:31.600 --> 0:17:34.120
<v Speaker 1>his chest. Oh, I don't know if that falls into

0:17:34.160 --> 0:17:37.280
<v Speaker 1>a ritualistic or what that means just yet.

0:17:37.880 --> 0:17:40.520
<v Speaker 2>Do we know anything more about the cross? Is this

0:17:40.680 --> 0:17:45.520
<v Speaker 2>like a Christian cross? Is this, you know, something different

0:17:45.720 --> 0:17:48.639
<v Speaker 2>than what I'm envisioning. Do you have any details on that?

0:17:49.119 --> 0:17:51.360
<v Speaker 1>I think it is your standard cross, Just.

0:17:51.320 --> 0:17:56.119
<v Speaker 2>A cross, okay, yep. Which obviously there might be religious

0:17:56.600 --> 0:18:01.000
<v Speaker 2>connotations related to the cross that the offender is conveying.

0:18:02.119 --> 0:18:05.200
<v Speaker 2>There also potentially could just be you know how crosses,

0:18:05.480 --> 0:18:09.040
<v Speaker 2>I'm thinking about Arlington National Cemetery, you know how crosses

0:18:09.119 --> 0:18:13.080
<v Speaker 2>are used to basically mark the location of the deceased.

0:18:14.240 --> 0:18:16.919
<v Speaker 2>And was that just you know where the offender is

0:18:16.920 --> 0:18:19.960
<v Speaker 2>coming up? And is just you know, in essence, I've

0:18:20.040 --> 0:18:23.040
<v Speaker 2>killed this guy and here he is, so right now,

0:18:23.040 --> 0:18:27.520
<v Speaker 2>I couldn't really draw any conclusions as to what the

0:18:27.520 --> 0:18:31.240
<v Speaker 2>offender is thinking about the significance of the cross. However,

0:18:31.800 --> 0:18:35.560
<v Speaker 2>the offender is sending a message. Franklin Bruce is dead.

0:18:35.680 --> 0:18:38.680
<v Speaker 2>He's not doing this to send a message to Franklin Bruce.

0:18:38.680 --> 0:18:42.160
<v Speaker 2>He's sending a message to somebody who's going to either

0:18:42.200 --> 0:18:46.080
<v Speaker 2>find the body or to some other entities, you know,

0:18:46.160 --> 0:18:50.040
<v Speaker 2>group of people you know, in which now it's like,

0:18:50.720 --> 0:18:53.880
<v Speaker 2>you know, what's going on with Franklin, Bruce, you know this? Yeah?

0:18:54.280 --> 0:18:57.719
<v Speaker 2>Is he being specifically targeted or is this more of

0:18:57.920 --> 0:19:00.159
<v Speaker 2>he just happened to be a victim of opportunity. He

0:19:00.280 --> 0:19:03.800
<v Speaker 2>and the offender or offenders killed him, And it's like,

0:19:03.880 --> 0:19:06.720
<v Speaker 2>you send anybody else down this direction, you're going to

0:19:06.960 --> 0:19:10.320
<v Speaker 2>you know, suffer the same fate or something to that effect.

0:19:10.720 --> 0:19:13.800
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, And I had wondered if it was to benefit

0:19:14.119 --> 0:19:18.119
<v Speaker 1>Franklin somehow. I don't know what that would mean, putting

0:19:18.160 --> 0:19:19.640
<v Speaker 1>a cross on him that makes him.

0:19:19.560 --> 0:19:21.720
<v Speaker 2>Go to heaven like maybe like a like yeah, a

0:19:21.800 --> 0:19:23.000
<v Speaker 2>spiritual thing.

0:19:22.920 --> 0:19:26.520
<v Speaker 1>Just something. I mean that seems not very kind. But

0:19:26.600 --> 0:19:28.480
<v Speaker 1>I mean, of course they couldn't really tell or I

0:19:28.520 --> 0:19:30.680
<v Speaker 1>don't have notes that say whether this happened before or

0:19:30.720 --> 0:19:33.280
<v Speaker 1>after he was shot. I imagine after, of course, But.

0:19:33.680 --> 0:19:36.320
<v Speaker 2>I wouldn't argue against that thought. You know, this is

0:19:36.359 --> 0:19:42.359
<v Speaker 2>where the offender may be killing Franklin in this world

0:19:42.960 --> 0:19:46.680
<v Speaker 2>in order to deal with whatever's going on in this

0:19:46.920 --> 0:19:51.920
<v Speaker 2>world aspect, but is conscious of Franklin's spirit and wants

0:19:51.960 --> 0:19:55.520
<v Speaker 2>to ensure that the spirit is moving on in whatever

0:19:55.560 --> 0:20:03.800
<v Speaker 2>the religious philosophy. The offender had.

0:20:00.960 --> 0:20:02.919
<v Speaker 1>One of the things that I want to I know

0:20:02.960 --> 0:20:04.800
<v Speaker 1>this is going to be disconcerting, but we have to

0:20:04.840 --> 0:20:07.760
<v Speaker 1>move on from this story because this will be a

0:20:07.800 --> 0:20:10.720
<v Speaker 1>series of things and so this is not something where

0:20:10.760 --> 0:20:14.600
<v Speaker 1>we need to examine Franklin's inner circle. I promise, so

0:20:14.680 --> 0:20:17.159
<v Speaker 1>this will be We've got to go next to another

0:20:17.160 --> 0:20:19.080
<v Speaker 1>group of people. Is that okay? Or does that make

0:20:19.119 --> 0:20:20.480
<v Speaker 1>you fairly uncomfortable?

0:20:20.600 --> 0:20:22.720
<v Speaker 2>Again, I'll just roll with it, Kate.

0:20:22.880 --> 0:20:26.280
<v Speaker 1>Sorry, that's what I wish everybody said that to me. Okay, Kate,

0:20:26.400 --> 0:20:28.680
<v Speaker 1>we'll do what you say. But let's just we'll roll

0:20:28.720 --> 0:20:33.960
<v Speaker 1>with it the next night. So March nineteenth, eighteen sixty three.

0:20:34.200 --> 0:20:37.800
<v Speaker 1>This is near Colorado City, Colorado. There are a couple

0:20:37.800 --> 0:20:41.160
<v Speaker 1>of men who are building a new sawmill and there's

0:20:41.200 --> 0:20:44.120
<v Speaker 1>a you know, there's a little cabin nearby that they're

0:20:44.160 --> 0:20:46.119
<v Speaker 1>sleeping in, you know, so that they can get the

0:20:46.200 --> 0:20:49.879
<v Speaker 1>saw mill done. They notice that the cabin is dark,

0:20:50.480 --> 0:20:53.520
<v Speaker 1>so this is just a temporary home for them until

0:20:53.560 --> 0:20:57.000
<v Speaker 1>they're done. The reason they're alarmed that it's dark is

0:20:57.080 --> 0:21:01.560
<v Speaker 1>because one of the having mates, one of the workers,

0:21:01.600 --> 0:21:04.439
<v Speaker 1>who's a guy named Henry Harkins, is supposed to be

0:21:04.440 --> 0:21:07.280
<v Speaker 1>making them dinner. And every night when it's gotten dark

0:21:07.320 --> 0:21:10.240
<v Speaker 1>and two of the men are still working on the sawmill,

0:21:10.600 --> 0:21:16.440
<v Speaker 1>they could see through the cracks of the logs the lamplight,

0:21:16.720 --> 0:21:19.840
<v Speaker 1>and so this night there's no lights through the cracks

0:21:19.840 --> 0:21:22.160
<v Speaker 1>of the logs. So I guess they're facing a non window.

0:21:22.200 --> 0:21:23.879
<v Speaker 1>They might have a window at all in here, but

0:21:24.320 --> 0:21:25.919
<v Speaker 1>isn't it I thought that was really interesting. I mean,

0:21:25.960 --> 0:21:29.399
<v Speaker 1>we've talked about laundry hanging up, you know, as a

0:21:29.440 --> 0:21:32.640
<v Speaker 1>sign that this woman would never have done this because

0:21:32.640 --> 0:21:35.800
<v Speaker 1>it rained last night, all of these signals of alarm,

0:21:36.160 --> 0:21:39.560
<v Speaker 1>and these guys were alarmed because the light was out

0:21:39.640 --> 0:21:42.160
<v Speaker 1>when Henry was supposed to be cooking dinner for everyone.

0:21:42.640 --> 0:21:46.080
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so now they must go explore this, right, what's

0:21:46.240 --> 0:21:49.040
<v Speaker 2>you know, where's Henry? What's up with Henry? Because they're hungry,

0:21:48.840 --> 0:21:50.159
<v Speaker 2>they want their food.

0:21:49.960 --> 0:21:53.280
<v Speaker 1>Right, they're hungry and irritated. Maybe he fell asleep. As

0:21:53.359 --> 0:21:57.560
<v Speaker 1>they approached the darkened cabin, they realized that Henry has

0:21:57.680 --> 0:22:01.440
<v Speaker 1>been attacked. It's not sir, whether he's inside or outside

0:22:01.440 --> 0:22:03.720
<v Speaker 1>the cabin. But what we do know is that he's

0:22:03.760 --> 0:22:07.120
<v Speaker 1>been shot in the forehead. The men think with a revolver,

0:22:07.520 --> 0:22:10.199
<v Speaker 1>but I don't know whether they retrieved a bullet or not.

0:22:10.800 --> 0:22:13.520
<v Speaker 1>And then they said that he was also attacked with

0:22:13.560 --> 0:22:17.679
<v Speaker 1>an axe. So there's a pertinent piece of information. And

0:22:17.720 --> 0:22:22.359
<v Speaker 1>then there's what the men say Henry's body was in

0:22:22.400 --> 0:22:25.480
<v Speaker 1>a state of the pertinent part of information is that

0:22:25.960 --> 0:22:28.480
<v Speaker 1>this is a group of men who came with Franklin

0:22:28.760 --> 0:22:32.240
<v Speaker 1>and his family to be prospectors. So they knew each other,

0:22:32.560 --> 0:22:34.840
<v Speaker 1>but they're quite a bit of part. They live kind

0:22:34.880 --> 0:22:37.720
<v Speaker 1>of in the same little region, but they are miles

0:22:37.760 --> 0:22:39.440
<v Speaker 1>and miles and miles apart where they might not ever

0:22:39.480 --> 0:22:40.040
<v Speaker 1>see each other.

0:22:40.440 --> 0:22:43.480
<v Speaker 2>Right, No, I had to look up where Colorado City

0:22:43.560 --> 0:22:46.399
<v Speaker 2>is because here in Colorado Springs there's old Colorado City.

0:22:46.960 --> 0:22:49.120
<v Speaker 2>And it was like, is this you know in the Springs,

0:22:49.520 --> 0:22:53.719
<v Speaker 2>But I believe where you're talking about this is. It

0:22:53.760 --> 0:22:58.200
<v Speaker 2>looks like it's about thirty thirty miles south of Pueblo,

0:22:59.000 --> 0:23:02.359
<v Speaker 2>which is about again about thirty miles south of Colorado Springs.

0:23:02.560 --> 0:23:06.479
<v Speaker 2>And then I can see it's really south of Canyon

0:23:06.520 --> 0:23:09.280
<v Speaker 2>City by about a good thirty miles maybe, Yeah, So

0:23:09.440 --> 0:23:11.520
<v Speaker 2>I could you know back in the day. That would

0:23:11.520 --> 0:23:14.040
<v Speaker 2>be a pretty significant distance to have to cover for

0:23:14.240 --> 0:23:16.480
<v Speaker 2>these groups that know each other to see each.

0:23:16.280 --> 0:23:19.359
<v Speaker 1>Other, right, right, And I mean there's horseback and carts

0:23:19.359 --> 0:23:21.960
<v Speaker 1>and everything. But you're right, okay. Let me tell you

0:23:22.040 --> 0:23:24.399
<v Speaker 1>about Henry and what happens. I told you that he

0:23:24.520 --> 0:23:28.639
<v Speaker 1>had been shot through the forehead, so Franklin had been

0:23:28.640 --> 0:23:32.800
<v Speaker 1>shot through the heart. There is a large gash in

0:23:32.920 --> 0:23:37.160
<v Speaker 1>Henry's head from an axe, they presume from his This

0:23:37.240 --> 0:23:40.520
<v Speaker 1>is graphic, y'all. I mean, if you know you're squeamish

0:23:40.520 --> 0:23:43.879
<v Speaker 1>at all. It's a gash that goes from his forehead

0:23:44.119 --> 0:23:47.439
<v Speaker 1>to his mouth. There are two wounds on his chest.

0:23:47.760 --> 0:23:51.359
<v Speaker 1>They are each four inches long and about three inches apart.

0:23:51.560 --> 0:23:54.520
<v Speaker 1>On the left side of his chest. It looks like

0:23:54.560 --> 0:23:57.080
<v Speaker 1>he's been hit on the sides of his head with

0:23:57.560 --> 0:24:01.040
<v Speaker 1>the blunt side of an axe. And the men find

0:24:01.119 --> 0:24:04.119
<v Speaker 1>two pieces of skull in some of Henry's brain on

0:24:04.240 --> 0:24:08.040
<v Speaker 1>top of his head, and the cabin has been ransacked.

0:24:08.200 --> 0:24:12.240
<v Speaker 1>I don't see where Franklin had been robbed, but this

0:24:12.440 --> 0:24:15.520
<v Speaker 1>is major damage. I don't know how close these guys

0:24:15.680 --> 0:24:19.800
<v Speaker 1>are close enough to see light peeking through you know, logs,

0:24:20.000 --> 0:24:23.280
<v Speaker 1>so I don't know how this happened without these men

0:24:23.359 --> 0:24:23.760
<v Speaker 1>knowing it.

0:24:24.320 --> 0:24:28.080
<v Speaker 2>My initial questions, which you probably can't answer, was there

0:24:28.080 --> 0:24:32.560
<v Speaker 2>any evidence of distance that the firearm was from this?

0:24:32.560 --> 0:24:36.080
<v Speaker 2>This is this something that the offenders up close, you know,

0:24:36.160 --> 0:24:39.040
<v Speaker 2>and then so we would see firearms discharge evidence on

0:24:39.880 --> 0:24:44.440
<v Speaker 2>Henry's forehead? Or was this from a distance? And in essence,

0:24:44.640 --> 0:24:49.720
<v Speaker 2>you know, the offender was able to incapacitate and likely

0:24:49.880 --> 0:24:52.879
<v Speaker 2>kill Henry. But then did he used the axe on

0:24:52.960 --> 0:24:57.639
<v Speaker 2>Henry afterwards? Or was there a physical altercation prior to

0:24:57.680 --> 0:25:00.359
<v Speaker 2>the shooting in which an axe was used, and then

0:25:00.480 --> 0:25:03.160
<v Speaker 2>in essence Henry was finished off with a gunshot.

0:25:03.920 --> 0:25:07.040
<v Speaker 1>I don't know the answer to that. I'm so confused

0:25:07.080 --> 0:25:11.439
<v Speaker 1>about how that could happen. A gun shot acts It

0:25:11.440 --> 0:25:14.280
<v Speaker 1>sounds like probably Henry was maybe he was fighting back,

0:25:14.320 --> 0:25:17.359
<v Speaker 1>I'm not really sure versus Franklin, who it sounds like

0:25:17.440 --> 0:25:19.160
<v Speaker 1>just took one. It was one shot through his heart

0:25:19.200 --> 0:25:22.359
<v Speaker 1>and that was it. These men are close enough to

0:25:22.400 --> 0:25:24.760
<v Speaker 1>be able to see a light coming through the cabin,

0:25:25.320 --> 0:25:27.560
<v Speaker 1>and then I was thinking, how is that possible? Maybe

0:25:27.560 --> 0:25:31.760
<v Speaker 1>these guys are involved, but with saws and everything else

0:25:31.800 --> 0:25:35.040
<v Speaker 1>that they're doing, maybe a gunshot was something that was

0:25:35.080 --> 0:25:37.479
<v Speaker 1>covered up. I don't know, But I don't know if

0:25:37.560 --> 0:25:39.840
<v Speaker 1>he was axed first and then shot or the other

0:25:39.880 --> 0:25:42.520
<v Speaker 1>way around. And I didn't read anything about is it stippling?

0:25:42.600 --> 0:25:44.439
<v Speaker 1>Is that what it would be? Any kind of burns

0:25:44.560 --> 0:25:46.520
<v Speaker 1>or anything like if it was close contact.

0:25:46.480 --> 0:25:50.880
<v Speaker 2>Right, you know, the stippling of the gunpowder from the discharge,

0:25:51.359 --> 0:25:54.240
<v Speaker 2>you know, and that we are talking in the eighteen sixties,

0:25:54.600 --> 0:25:58.080
<v Speaker 2>so probably a black powder weapon. I don't think they

0:25:58.160 --> 0:26:02.119
<v Speaker 2>had the smokeless power, you know, single shot type of

0:26:02.160 --> 0:26:07.119
<v Speaker 2>handgun is what I'm envisioning my perspective in terms of

0:26:07.160 --> 0:26:10.720
<v Speaker 2>asking some of these questions. Am I dealing with everything

0:26:10.760 --> 0:26:13.600
<v Speaker 2>happening to Henry within the cabin or do I have

0:26:13.640 --> 0:26:17.720
<v Speaker 2>an offender shooting Henry and the offender's actually outside the cabin.

0:26:17.800 --> 0:26:19.879
<v Speaker 2>We know the use of the axe on Henry is

0:26:19.880 --> 0:26:22.760
<v Speaker 2>occurring when the two are the offender and the victim

0:26:22.760 --> 0:26:26.920
<v Speaker 2>are close together. Are there any symbols carved into Henry?

0:26:27.520 --> 0:26:29.760
<v Speaker 1>Not that I know of, but the way that they

0:26:29.800 --> 0:26:33.159
<v Speaker 1>are describing those marks, and I can read them to you, again,

0:26:33.760 --> 0:26:36.720
<v Speaker 1>it might have been across and they just misread them.

0:26:36.840 --> 0:26:39.280
<v Speaker 1>They said that they're two wounds on his chest. They

0:26:39.320 --> 0:26:43.119
<v Speaker 1>are four inches long and about three inches apart on

0:26:43.200 --> 0:26:45.199
<v Speaker 1>the left side of his in the left side of

0:26:45.200 --> 0:26:49.200
<v Speaker 1>his chest. But I don't see whether what direction they're

0:26:49.240 --> 0:26:51.560
<v Speaker 1>in or if they could have been across. I think

0:26:51.600 --> 0:26:53.760
<v Speaker 1>if it was a clear cross, it would have shown

0:26:53.880 --> 0:26:56.960
<v Speaker 1>up in the newspaper articles. I don't know, but something

0:26:57.040 --> 0:27:01.120
<v Speaker 1>is and somebody's carving stuff in these these people chests.

0:27:01.400 --> 0:27:06.440
<v Speaker 2>Or these two These sound like possibly two blows from

0:27:06.480 --> 0:27:10.040
<v Speaker 2>maybe the sharp edge of the acts that are four

0:27:10.080 --> 0:27:13.360
<v Speaker 2>inches apart. They're not crossing over like a cross. Yeah,

0:27:13.480 --> 0:27:16.440
<v Speaker 2>you know, And this is this just part of an offender,

0:27:16.640 --> 0:27:19.840
<v Speaker 2>you know, during maybe combat with the victim, or is

0:27:19.880 --> 0:27:22.000
<v Speaker 2>this you know, after the victim has been shot he's

0:27:22.080 --> 0:27:24.520
<v Speaker 2>down and now either it's the same, you know, the

0:27:24.520 --> 0:27:26.960
<v Speaker 2>shooter is the one who's picking up an axe and

0:27:27.080 --> 0:27:30.280
<v Speaker 2>deciding to use an axe for whatever reason. You know.

0:27:30.320 --> 0:27:33.560
<v Speaker 2>But it's interesting, you know that does two weapons being

0:27:33.640 --> 0:27:36.840
<v Speaker 2>used suggest that two offenders were possibly present.

0:27:37.320 --> 0:27:39.200
<v Speaker 1>Let me show you something that I think you'll think

0:27:39.280 --> 0:27:42.120
<v Speaker 1>is interesting. I didn't think I was going to mention this.

0:27:42.920 --> 0:27:46.960
<v Speaker 1>The men who responded to Franklin, the first victim, the

0:27:47.119 --> 0:27:50.080
<v Speaker 1>men said that they thought there was a it was

0:27:50.119 --> 0:27:52.679
<v Speaker 1>a certain kind of gun that had been used. I

0:27:52.720 --> 0:27:56.560
<v Speaker 1>just thought it's a revolver and it doesn't really particularly

0:27:56.560 --> 0:27:59.840
<v Speaker 1>come into play. But now that you're talking about single shot,

0:28:00.560 --> 0:28:03.119
<v Speaker 1>let me show you what they thought it was.

0:28:04.040 --> 0:28:06.120
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, So this see how it says this warning black

0:28:06.160 --> 0:28:09.520
<v Speaker 2>powder firearms cannot be shipped, et cetera, et cetera. So

0:28:09.560 --> 0:28:14.320
<v Speaker 2>this sounds like, you know how modern guns have ammunition

0:28:14.480 --> 0:28:18.080
<v Speaker 2>in which there's a cartridge case that has the gunpowder

0:28:18.119 --> 0:28:21.680
<v Speaker 2>in it and a primer that the firing pin strikes,

0:28:21.680 --> 0:28:25.960
<v Speaker 2>and then of course the round, the bullet is seated

0:28:26.119 --> 0:28:28.159
<v Speaker 2>in this cartridge case. So that's where you have a

0:28:28.480 --> 0:28:32.880
<v Speaker 2>single round of ammunition, and so it's all contained together,

0:28:33.080 --> 0:28:38.040
<v Speaker 2>whereas with black powder rifles, black powder revolvers what you're

0:28:38.080 --> 0:28:41.280
<v Speaker 2>now seeing and I am no expert on this at all,

0:28:41.560 --> 0:28:44.920
<v Speaker 2>but because we didn't deal with black powder guns and

0:28:45.320 --> 0:28:48.800
<v Speaker 2>modern crime, but the little bit of exposure I've had

0:28:48.840 --> 0:28:52.440
<v Speaker 2>with it, what I'm envisioning is is that the shooter

0:28:52.720 --> 0:28:57.440
<v Speaker 2>has to load each chamber in the revolver with the

0:28:57.480 --> 0:29:01.480
<v Speaker 2>black powder, with the round, you know, and kind of

0:29:02.080 --> 0:29:06.360
<v Speaker 2>tamp it down. So it's a very slow process to

0:29:06.440 --> 0:29:10.320
<v Speaker 2>reload a gun like this. But this as opposed to

0:29:10.320 --> 0:29:14.920
<v Speaker 2>a single shot handgun the revolver. Once he's taken the

0:29:15.120 --> 0:29:20.000
<v Speaker 2>time to put this black powder ammunition into the revolver,

0:29:20.360 --> 0:29:24.040
<v Speaker 2>he could shoot however many shots this revolver would hold,

0:29:24.120 --> 0:29:27.239
<v Speaker 2>you know, typically modern revolvers are usually six, but they

0:29:27.240 --> 0:29:31.240
<v Speaker 2>can vary. So once he's loaded it, he's now got

0:29:31.280 --> 0:29:34.840
<v Speaker 2>the capability to be able to shoot multiple times with

0:29:35.080 --> 0:29:37.440
<v Speaker 2>that old black powder revolver.

0:29:38.000 --> 0:29:40.960
<v Speaker 1>When we were talking about single shot, I was reminded

0:29:41.200 --> 0:29:43.600
<v Speaker 1>of a show that I used to watch all the time.

0:29:43.800 --> 0:29:48.120
<v Speaker 1>I'm slightly obsessed with Sleepy Hollow. I worked at a

0:29:48.360 --> 0:29:52.120
<v Speaker 1>university in Sleepy Hollow in New York, in North Terrytown,

0:29:52.160 --> 0:29:53.800
<v Speaker 1>and I would take the train up there and everything,

0:29:53.880 --> 0:29:56.480
<v Speaker 1>and it was part of Fordham University and I taught there,

0:29:57.080 --> 0:30:01.040
<v Speaker 1>and so I'm a huge Washington Irving fan. And this

0:30:01.120 --> 0:30:04.840
<v Speaker 1>TV show came out about Pikabod Crane, you know, the

0:30:04.880 --> 0:30:08.560
<v Speaker 1>star of Sleepy Hollow, and he is sort of comes

0:30:08.600 --> 0:30:11.680
<v Speaker 1>back to life, and he's very handsome and he's interacting

0:30:11.760 --> 0:30:15.040
<v Speaker 1>with the modern police and it's very confusing. He has

0:30:15.120 --> 0:30:17.600
<v Speaker 1>kind of a woman who is working with him trying

0:30:17.640 --> 0:30:20.600
<v Speaker 1>to solve cases, but he feels like it's the seventeen hundreds,

0:30:20.800 --> 0:30:22.840
<v Speaker 1>and so there's a scene when they're sort of fighting

0:30:23.280 --> 0:30:26.920
<v Speaker 1>the headless horseman and she runs ahead and she says,

0:30:27.000 --> 0:30:29.440
<v Speaker 1>unload your gun, and he goes okay, and there's one

0:30:29.480 --> 0:30:32.520
<v Speaker 1>shot and she said, I thought you unloaded your gun,

0:30:32.640 --> 0:30:36.520
<v Speaker 1>and she said I did. So I always think about that,

0:30:36.640 --> 0:30:38.880
<v Speaker 1>you know, when when I do think about, like how

0:30:38.880 --> 0:30:41.320
<v Speaker 1>many bullets do we have to work with here? So anyway,

0:30:41.320 --> 0:30:44.800
<v Speaker 1>that was the longest side to say that. I still

0:30:44.880 --> 0:30:47.840
<v Speaker 1>wonder why they thought it was the specific one Colt

0:30:47.920 --> 0:30:51.440
<v Speaker 1>Navy revolver. But I mean, maybe it was a bullet

0:30:51.520 --> 0:30:53.360
<v Speaker 1>or something. I don't know. But the people who responded

0:30:53.360 --> 0:30:55.520
<v Speaker 1>to Franklin's body said, this is what it looks like

0:30:55.560 --> 0:30:55.880
<v Speaker 1>to us.

0:30:56.640 --> 0:31:00.440
<v Speaker 2>Okay, so you're saying that in Franklin's case, they think

0:31:00.480 --> 0:31:03.640
<v Speaker 2>it was this forty four black powder revolver.

0:31:03.840 --> 0:31:07.760
<v Speaker 1>They just called it the cult Navy revolver. And that's

0:31:07.760 --> 0:31:10.600
<v Speaker 1>what I looked up. And then all of these popped up,

0:31:10.960 --> 0:31:12.960
<v Speaker 1>and they look exactly the same if.

0:31:12.880 --> 0:31:15.640
<v Speaker 2>It was a handgun like this, and these handguns were

0:31:15.680 --> 0:31:20.000
<v Speaker 2>not tremendously accurate. In fact, I think this is possibly

0:31:20.880 --> 0:31:23.840
<v Speaker 2>it's not a rifled barrel, you know, the rifling in

0:31:23.880 --> 0:31:26.720
<v Speaker 2>the barrel puts a twist on the projectile that gives

0:31:26.760 --> 0:31:30.880
<v Speaker 2>its stability. I'm guessing this is not a rifled barrel

0:31:30.960 --> 0:31:34.040
<v Speaker 2>based on this era, and again I am no expert.

0:31:34.120 --> 0:31:37.440
<v Speaker 2>But now, in essence, you've got a round coming out

0:31:37.480 --> 0:31:41.600
<v Speaker 2>of this very inaccurate weapon and striking Franklin in the heart.

0:31:42.000 --> 0:31:47.000
<v Speaker 2>So I'm surmising that the shooter was reasonably close to

0:31:47.040 --> 0:31:50.800
<v Speaker 2>Franklin versus Franklin is driving the horses and he's on

0:31:50.840 --> 0:31:54.200
<v Speaker 2>the stagecoach and he gets sniped from a distance from

0:31:54.240 --> 0:31:57.840
<v Speaker 2>a rifle. So it almost sounds like Franklin and the

0:31:58.400 --> 0:32:03.640
<v Speaker 2>shooter probably were in relatively close proximity before Franklin was shot.

0:32:03.760 --> 0:32:06.360
<v Speaker 2>That's my guess based off of this type of weapon.

0:32:07.200 --> 0:32:10.120
<v Speaker 1>And I wondered about the damage that was done to

0:32:10.160 --> 0:32:12.880
<v Speaker 1>his forehead gashes. I mean, this sounds like a total

0:32:12.960 --> 0:32:16.080
<v Speaker 1>mess of a scene. So right, Pablo, they still would

0:32:16.080 --> 0:32:18.920
<v Speaker 1>have seen the black on him on his forehead, but

0:32:19.000 --> 0:32:20.760
<v Speaker 1>still it's such a mess, you.

0:32:20.680 --> 0:32:23.840
<v Speaker 2>Know, Yes, so with Henry, if he's being hit with

0:32:23.920 --> 0:32:27.120
<v Speaker 2>the blunt end of an axe, you know, this is

0:32:27.520 --> 0:32:30.600
<v Speaker 2>a very devastating weapon. It's in essence, you know, that's

0:32:30.680 --> 0:32:34.040
<v Speaker 2>like being hit in the head with a sledgehammer, and

0:32:34.120 --> 0:32:37.560
<v Speaker 2>so the skull is going to be compromised. And yes,

0:32:37.680 --> 0:32:40.280
<v Speaker 2>you know you talked about the description of blood and

0:32:40.400 --> 0:32:44.960
<v Speaker 2>brain matter being present outside of his skull. Absolutely, Now

0:32:45.000 --> 0:32:48.080
<v Speaker 2>that could also be a result of the gunshot. So

0:32:48.160 --> 0:32:50.200
<v Speaker 2>it just depends on what they're seeing and what the

0:32:50.240 --> 0:32:52.680
<v Speaker 2>sequence of Henry's injuries were.

0:32:53.520 --> 0:32:57.920
<v Speaker 1>Okay, well let's move forward. So now we're talking about tracking,

0:32:58.120 --> 0:33:01.600
<v Speaker 1>and I know very little about but what happens is

0:33:01.640 --> 0:33:03.760
<v Speaker 1>there's US sheriff. So I always like to figure out

0:33:03.800 --> 0:33:06.240
<v Speaker 1>who law enforcement is. What are we calling them? The

0:33:06.360 --> 0:33:11.480
<v Speaker 1>local sheriff and the deputy are tracking Henry's attackers. It

0:33:11.520 --> 0:33:15.040
<v Speaker 1>sounds like using the horse tracks and they follow this trail.

0:33:15.440 --> 0:33:19.040
<v Speaker 1>This doesn't even seem possible, Paul, from Colorado City to

0:33:19.160 --> 0:33:23.280
<v Speaker 1>the Ute Pass, which is about ninety miles to the north,

0:33:23.720 --> 0:33:27.280
<v Speaker 1>and then Canyon City, where the first murder took place,

0:33:27.400 --> 0:33:31.960
<v Speaker 1>is kind of is in between these points. So ninety miles.

0:33:32.160 --> 0:33:34.360
<v Speaker 1>How do you how would they I know you probably

0:33:34.360 --> 0:33:35.960
<v Speaker 1>don't know this, but how do you how would you

0:33:36.040 --> 0:33:39.640
<v Speaker 1>even differentiate which horse prints or which horse hoofs we're

0:33:39.680 --> 0:33:40.320
<v Speaker 1>going with here?

0:33:40.880 --> 0:33:42.280
<v Speaker 2>I don't I'm not a tracker.

0:33:42.560 --> 0:33:44.560
<v Speaker 1>So now we have to call another expert. So we

0:33:44.600 --> 0:33:47.320
<v Speaker 1>need something, yes, okay for listeners and watches, we need

0:33:47.360 --> 0:33:49.360
<v Speaker 1>a gun expert, and we need a tracker.

0:33:50.440 --> 0:33:54.120
<v Speaker 2>Well, but I think, you know, I've followed, you know,

0:33:54.480 --> 0:33:58.680
<v Speaker 2>shoe impressions, you know, which the let's say an offender

0:33:58.760 --> 0:34:02.000
<v Speaker 2>running away from a scene and he steps in a

0:34:02.040 --> 0:34:04.640
<v Speaker 2>garden bed, and so now I shoe impressions, and then

0:34:04.680 --> 0:34:07.800
<v Speaker 2>he's running over grass, and then you see him cross

0:34:07.880 --> 0:34:10.200
<v Speaker 2>over an area where there's dirt and you see the

0:34:10.280 --> 0:34:12.960
<v Speaker 2>same tread pattern. You know, So I've done that type

0:34:13.000 --> 0:34:17.440
<v Speaker 2>of thing. That's just typical CSI style, you know tracking,

0:34:17.520 --> 0:34:22.239
<v Speaker 2>if you will, to track this distance with something that

0:34:22.360 --> 0:34:27.840
<v Speaker 2>is so nondescript as horse shoes, it almost tells me

0:34:28.120 --> 0:34:31.280
<v Speaker 2>that whatever path that they're following is not a well

0:34:31.360 --> 0:34:35.799
<v Speaker 2>traveled path, and they're probably taking a look at the

0:34:35.960 --> 0:34:39.640
<v Speaker 2>what they're interpreting as being the fresh impressions that they

0:34:39.719 --> 0:34:43.399
<v Speaker 2>can see, and then so they're connecting the dots because

0:34:43.400 --> 0:34:47.520
<v Speaker 2>I can guarantee over ninety miles, there's probably long lengths

0:34:47.520 --> 0:34:50.080
<v Speaker 2>of this trail in which they don't have anything that

0:34:50.120 --> 0:34:52.239
<v Speaker 2>they can see, and they just kind of keep on

0:34:52.320 --> 0:34:55.840
<v Speaker 2>the same direction that the previous you know, track showed

0:34:55.880 --> 0:34:57.680
<v Speaker 2>and all of a sudden they're picking up the track again.

0:34:58.200 --> 0:35:00.799
<v Speaker 2>You know. So that's my guess. It's just that how

0:35:01.120 --> 0:35:03.600
<v Speaker 2>accurate is it? Could they have been misled?

0:35:04.080 --> 0:35:09.080
<v Speaker 1>Well, let's continue on. Now we are about thirteen days

0:35:09.200 --> 0:35:14.800
<v Speaker 1>after Franklin, twelve days after Henry. This is March thirty first,

0:35:15.000 --> 0:35:18.879
<v Speaker 1>and now we're in an area called Wilkerson Pass. This

0:35:19.160 --> 0:35:22.960
<v Speaker 1>is between Colorado City and another gold camp which is

0:35:22.960 --> 0:35:25.759
<v Speaker 1>about fifty miles away. And this is a man working

0:35:25.800 --> 0:35:28.359
<v Speaker 1>at a way station. This is a rest stop, kind

0:35:28.400 --> 0:35:30.320
<v Speaker 1>of like a truck or rest stop in a way Okay,

0:35:30.400 --> 0:35:33.839
<v Speaker 1>so people stop for rest and they get supplies. There

0:35:33.960 --> 0:35:37.640
<v Speaker 1>is a guy named John Adelman who runs away station.

0:35:38.000 --> 0:35:40.240
<v Speaker 1>And this is again these places are in the middle

0:35:40.239 --> 0:35:43.959
<v Speaker 1>of nowhere, literally in the middle of nowhere in Wilkerson Pass.

0:35:43.960 --> 0:35:47.840
<v Speaker 1>And there's a mail carrier who stops at this way station.

0:35:48.520 --> 0:35:54.600
<v Speaker 1>When he arrives to Adelman's way station, the mail carrier

0:35:54.719 --> 0:35:58.080
<v Speaker 1>finds the house to be disordered, is what he says.

0:35:58.200 --> 0:36:01.360
<v Speaker 1>Quickly he rides away. It looks like it's been trashed.

0:36:01.520 --> 0:36:04.640
<v Speaker 1>He doesn't find anything. He just sees that maybe they've

0:36:04.680 --> 0:36:07.600
<v Speaker 1>been robbed. He finds the sheriff in the deputy who

0:36:07.600 --> 0:36:11.440
<v Speaker 1>have been tracking Henry and Franklin's attackers. They're connecting these

0:36:11.680 --> 0:36:15.120
<v Speaker 1>because it doesn't sound like these kind of attacks are common.

0:36:15.360 --> 0:36:19.799
<v Speaker 1>And it's at two sawmills, Franklin sawmill and Henry with

0:36:19.880 --> 0:36:23.400
<v Speaker 1>the cabin. So you've got the sheriff in the deputy

0:36:23.520 --> 0:36:26.799
<v Speaker 1>covering god knows how many miles, at least ninety. And

0:36:27.040 --> 0:36:29.480
<v Speaker 1>this mail carrier, gosh, what a hard job. That must

0:36:29.480 --> 0:36:33.120
<v Speaker 1>have been a cold territory being a mail carrier. This

0:36:33.239 --> 0:36:37.759
<v Speaker 1>mail carrier tracks them down and he says, this way

0:36:37.840 --> 0:36:40.840
<v Speaker 1>station is normally very orderly. I don't know where John is.

0:36:41.160 --> 0:36:44.439
<v Speaker 1>It's been trashed. Can you come and help. They get

0:36:44.440 --> 0:36:46.920
<v Speaker 1>to Adalmans and they find his body on the property,

0:36:47.200 --> 0:36:50.480
<v Speaker 1>not inside the way station. So some reports say that

0:36:50.520 --> 0:36:52.880
<v Speaker 1>he had been shot through the head. Others say that

0:36:52.920 --> 0:36:56.719
<v Speaker 1>he was shot twice through the heart. And we don't

0:36:56.760 --> 0:36:59.040
<v Speaker 1>know about the type of gun, and we don't have

0:36:59.080 --> 0:37:04.279
<v Speaker 1>a clear connection to the other two men. So to summarize,

0:37:04.440 --> 0:37:08.279
<v Speaker 1>we've got three victims, all men connected to you know,

0:37:08.320 --> 0:37:12.520
<v Speaker 1>this part of the territory, not tremendously far apart, and

0:37:12.600 --> 0:37:15.480
<v Speaker 1>two victims know each other mostly just in passing. That

0:37:15.560 --> 0:37:18.000
<v Speaker 1>kind of came in at the same time. It looks

0:37:18.040 --> 0:37:20.400
<v Speaker 1>like there's been a robbery in this one too, So

0:37:20.880 --> 0:37:24.879
<v Speaker 1>these are happening close. I mean, this is the eighteenth

0:37:24.960 --> 0:37:27.520
<v Speaker 1>of March, the nineteenth of March, and then the thirty

0:37:27.560 --> 0:37:30.880
<v Speaker 1>first of March. And before you ask, I do not

0:37:31.160 --> 0:37:35.080
<v Speaker 1>see that he has been hit with an axe, John,

0:37:35.760 --> 0:37:38.680
<v Speaker 1>and I do not see that there has been anything

0:37:38.680 --> 0:37:40.160
<v Speaker 1>carved in his chest.

0:37:40.400 --> 0:37:43.120
<v Speaker 2>You know, even though you know Franklin and Henry had

0:37:43.360 --> 0:37:50.000
<v Speaker 2>some sort of connection to each other, whereas Adalman, there's

0:37:50.080 --> 0:37:53.480
<v Speaker 2>no known connection to the two previous victims. So I'm

0:37:53.520 --> 0:37:56.239
<v Speaker 2>wondering at this point of the you know, Henry and

0:37:56.280 --> 0:37:59.520
<v Speaker 2>Franklin becoming victims even though they knew each other, that

0:37:59.520 --> 0:38:03.480
<v Speaker 2>that really relationship was just coincidental. They're not being targeted

0:38:03.520 --> 0:38:08.440
<v Speaker 2>because they knew each other, So if I'm right about that,

0:38:08.800 --> 0:38:13.719
<v Speaker 2>So now you have with Henry and John Adelman, you

0:38:13.840 --> 0:38:17.839
<v Speaker 2>now have this what sounds like the tossing of the

0:38:17.840 --> 0:38:21.319
<v Speaker 2>inside of the places where you know they had control over.

0:38:21.360 --> 0:38:25.440
<v Speaker 2>Henry's killed inside this cabin, whereas Adelman's body is outside,

0:38:25.480 --> 0:38:28.080
<v Speaker 2>but the offender took the time to go inside and

0:38:28.200 --> 0:38:30.799
<v Speaker 2>toss the place. Part of the assessment is as, why

0:38:30.840 --> 0:38:33.719
<v Speaker 2>are they looking for something? You know, what are they

0:38:33.719 --> 0:38:35.840
<v Speaker 2>looking for? Are they looking for something that has you know,

0:38:35.960 --> 0:38:39.920
<v Speaker 2>monetary value? Are they looking for land deeds? You know?

0:38:40.239 --> 0:38:44.160
<v Speaker 2>So that's if I'm assessing this crime scene, I want

0:38:44.200 --> 0:38:48.320
<v Speaker 2>to know, Okay, is there something about the locations within

0:38:48.440 --> 0:38:53.319
<v Speaker 2>these structures that the offender seems to be focused in

0:38:53.480 --> 0:38:56.680
<v Speaker 2>on and what would normally be kept at these locations?

0:38:56.760 --> 0:39:00.640
<v Speaker 2>Is there overlap between these two crime scenes? J indicates

0:39:00.640 --> 0:39:05.120
<v Speaker 2>these offenders are going around looking for something specific or

0:39:05.320 --> 0:39:07.759
<v Speaker 2>they just I mean sometimes you know, I've processed many

0:39:07.760 --> 0:39:10.759
<v Speaker 2>burglaries early on in my career, and you just have

0:39:11.239 --> 0:39:12.960
<v Speaker 2>you know, some of these guys are very focused on

0:39:12.960 --> 0:39:16.400
<v Speaker 2>what they're going after and targets certain areas within a house.

0:39:16.840 --> 0:39:20.560
<v Speaker 2>Other guys will just start throwing things everywhere, just hoping

0:39:20.600 --> 0:39:22.960
<v Speaker 2>to run across something, you know. So that's what I'm

0:39:23.000 --> 0:39:27.680
<v Speaker 2>trying to discern here. Am I dealing with just you know,

0:39:27.800 --> 0:39:30.839
<v Speaker 2>somebody who's looking for something random, not knowing what's in

0:39:30.840 --> 0:39:35.200
<v Speaker 2>the structure or is this a targeted type of ransacking

0:39:35.320 --> 0:39:37.160
<v Speaker 2>within these structures? Yeah?

0:39:37.280 --> 0:39:41.160
<v Speaker 1>And I don't have an impression that this was anything

0:39:41.239 --> 0:39:44.280
<v Speaker 1>but just tossing and trying to grab anything of value.

0:39:44.920 --> 0:39:48.880
<v Speaker 1>I do know that this part of Colorado, the Colorado territory,

0:39:49.080 --> 0:39:53.640
<v Speaker 1>is remote, all of it, but there are sembilances of cities, right.

0:39:53.680 --> 0:39:55.880
<v Speaker 1>I mean, we talked about the plazas where all of

0:39:55.880 --> 0:39:58.920
<v Speaker 1>these Adobe houses are set up and everything, But where

0:39:59.360 --> 0:40:04.040
<v Speaker 1>the killer is hitting are these remote spots and spots

0:40:04.080 --> 0:40:07.319
<v Speaker 1>that are not particularly well traveled. I mean, I know

0:40:07.360 --> 0:40:10.480
<v Speaker 1>this is a way station, but John might not have

0:40:10.480 --> 0:40:12.880
<v Speaker 1>seen people for days and days and days, depending on

0:40:13.000 --> 0:40:16.399
<v Speaker 1>how many people are going through this area. So you've

0:40:16.440 --> 0:40:19.279
<v Speaker 1>got Franklin who is by himself. You've got John at

0:40:19.280 --> 0:40:21.880
<v Speaker 1>the way station, who is by himself. But then you

0:40:21.920 --> 0:40:25.600
<v Speaker 1>have Henry, who has two or three people not far

0:40:25.640 --> 0:40:30.239
<v Speaker 1>from him at all there. And so I wonder what

0:40:30.280 --> 0:40:33.440
<v Speaker 1>the motive is. If it's just simply killing people, that

0:40:33.480 --> 0:40:36.240
<v Speaker 1>just seems risky to me, because these are the people

0:40:36.280 --> 0:40:39.759
<v Speaker 1>at the middle murder, Henry's murder. These were all relatively

0:40:39.840 --> 0:40:43.560
<v Speaker 1>young men who could have overpowered whomever ends up being

0:40:43.600 --> 0:40:44.359
<v Speaker 1>the one who did this.

0:40:45.040 --> 0:40:49.279
<v Speaker 2>You saying that there's no information to indicate that the

0:40:49.880 --> 0:40:55.040
<v Speaker 2>ransacking that's being done has any targeted item that the

0:40:55.040 --> 0:40:58.640
<v Speaker 2>offender is looking for, And so if the offender is

0:40:58.920 --> 0:41:02.759
<v Speaker 2>just going into these struck and is taking whatever he

0:41:03.160 --> 0:41:06.400
<v Speaker 2>or they run across for financial value. You know, that

0:41:06.520 --> 0:41:10.120
<v Speaker 2>suggests to me that this is possibly somebody that does

0:41:10.200 --> 0:41:15.160
<v Speaker 2>not have let's say, a lot of monetary means, you know,

0:41:15.239 --> 0:41:19.120
<v Speaker 2>and is having to subsist off of whatever he finds

0:41:19.400 --> 0:41:24.040
<v Speaker 2>during the ransacking the homicides. You know, I think right

0:41:24.080 --> 0:41:26.279
<v Speaker 2>now it's kind of hard to say. You know, the

0:41:26.400 --> 0:41:29.640
<v Speaker 2>cross being put into Franklin, you know, if that was

0:41:29.680 --> 0:41:33.920
<v Speaker 2>to send a message to others, then that would seem

0:41:33.960 --> 0:41:36.759
<v Speaker 2>to think that there's a mission that this offender is on.

0:41:37.520 --> 0:41:40.319
<v Speaker 2>But if, like your thought, if this was just the

0:41:40.360 --> 0:41:44.399
<v Speaker 2>offender for religious purposes, you know, carving the cross into

0:41:44.480 --> 0:41:48.200
<v Speaker 2>to Franklin's body, you know, then now in essence, you

0:41:48.320 --> 0:41:52.680
<v Speaker 2>may be dealing with somebody who is just marauding around

0:41:52.719 --> 0:41:56.320
<v Speaker 2>the countryside, you know, trying to find things of monetary

0:41:56.400 --> 0:42:00.239
<v Speaker 2>value to be able to continue to subsist as willing

0:42:00.320 --> 0:42:03.600
<v Speaker 2>to kill. Right now, I can't say that there's anything

0:42:03.640 --> 0:42:08.080
<v Speaker 2>that suggests there's like a predatory aspect, but it could be.

0:42:08.200 --> 0:42:10.880
<v Speaker 2>You know that that's where if if we have more victims,

0:42:10.880 --> 0:42:14.920
<v Speaker 2>and maybe it becomes more apparent that you are dealing

0:42:14.960 --> 0:42:18.399
<v Speaker 2>with a fender that is purposely going out to trying

0:42:18.440 --> 0:42:20.600
<v Speaker 2>to find victims because he wants to kill. He gets

0:42:20.640 --> 0:42:24.279
<v Speaker 2>some sort of satisfaction. It may be, you know, retaliation

0:42:24.440 --> 0:42:28.239
<v Speaker 2>against raw perceived wrongs that these people do. You know,

0:42:28.320 --> 0:42:31.480
<v Speaker 2>and if you have somebody that's been displaced because of

0:42:31.520 --> 0:42:34.399
<v Speaker 2>the white settlers, now you can see where there could

0:42:34.440 --> 0:42:38.520
<v Speaker 2>be what I would consider an anger retaliation type of offender,

0:42:38.560 --> 0:42:42.040
<v Speaker 2>where he's now angry based on his lifestyle being impacted.

0:42:42.320 --> 0:42:44.880
<v Speaker 2>And even though these aren't the people that who necessarily

0:42:45.080 --> 0:42:49.000
<v Speaker 2>displaced him from a in person type of aspect, they're

0:42:49.080 --> 0:42:52.959
<v Speaker 2>representative of somebody of a group, you know, the white

0:42:53.000 --> 0:42:57.319
<v Speaker 2>settlers that are impacting his life. And now he's you know,

0:42:57.360 --> 0:43:00.960
<v Speaker 2>he's taken it out on these to white settlers.

0:43:01.320 --> 0:43:05.920
<v Speaker 1>Okay, well, unfortunately we do have more victims to talk about.

0:43:06.200 --> 0:43:07.680
<v Speaker 2>I had a feeling it was going that way.

0:43:07.920 --> 0:43:11.440
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. The sheriff and the deputy who find John's body

0:43:11.600 --> 0:43:15.520
<v Speaker 1>ride back down south to Canyon City to report this

0:43:15.760 --> 0:43:18.640
<v Speaker 1>additional murder. So now they're up to three. But it

0:43:18.800 --> 0:43:23.640
<v Speaker 1>looks like the killer or killers went north because there

0:43:23.680 --> 0:43:27.960
<v Speaker 1>are more bodies, so this is near fair play. We

0:43:28.000 --> 0:43:30.719
<v Speaker 1>were twenty five miles from Colorado City. So this is

0:43:30.760 --> 0:43:33.120
<v Speaker 1>far north. This is a lot. I mean, we're not

0:43:33.120 --> 0:43:36.759
<v Speaker 1>talking about geographic profiling at this point. They're going at

0:43:36.920 --> 0:43:41.760
<v Speaker 1>least ninety miles, maybe hundreds of miles on horseback likely.

0:43:42.400 --> 0:43:44.560
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Well, just you know, taking a car to go

0:43:44.640 --> 0:43:49.480
<v Speaker 2>from Colorado Springs up to Breckenridge along roughly this route,

0:43:49.880 --> 0:43:53.120
<v Speaker 2>probably where fair Play is located at, that's going to

0:43:53.120 --> 0:43:56.320
<v Speaker 2>be about a two hour drive, you know, and it's

0:43:56.640 --> 0:44:00.120
<v Speaker 2>i mean it's freeway speeds, but it's you know, these

0:44:00.120 --> 0:44:04.600
<v Speaker 2>are windy roads and stuff through the you know, sometimes

0:44:04.440 --> 0:44:09.480
<v Speaker 2>it's mountainous, sometimes it's open plains. So on horseback, you know,

0:44:10.000 --> 0:44:12.719
<v Speaker 2>this is a pretty significant distance to go, let's say,

0:44:12.920 --> 0:44:16.360
<v Speaker 2>from the Canyon City area all the way up to

0:44:16.400 --> 0:44:16.960
<v Speaker 2>fair Play.

0:44:17.360 --> 0:44:20.440
<v Speaker 1>What does that tell you about the offender or offenders

0:44:21.239 --> 0:44:24.440
<v Speaker 1>they're obviously comfortable on horseback and going long distances.

0:44:25.000 --> 0:44:27.880
<v Speaker 2>Well, I would say, you know, like like my experience,

0:44:27.920 --> 0:44:32.560
<v Speaker 2>of course, is dealing with offenders that are utilizing modern

0:44:32.560 --> 0:44:36.400
<v Speaker 2>transportation to move around. And you know, some of this

0:44:36.640 --> 0:44:43.200
<v Speaker 2>is due to the offenders' work, let's say truckers. Other times, offenders,

0:44:43.440 --> 0:44:47.600
<v Speaker 2>possibly Golden State killer DiAngelo, purposely moved around just to

0:44:48.280 --> 0:44:51.760
<v Speaker 2>commit crimes. And try to prevent law enforcement from linking

0:44:51.960 --> 0:44:56.880
<v Speaker 2>crimes together. So you know, there may be an aspect

0:44:57.120 --> 0:44:59.960
<v Speaker 2>to either one of those scenarios with this offender who

0:45:00.000 --> 0:45:03.560
<v Speaker 2>who's purposely traveling around. Maybe it's work related, maybe it

0:45:03.640 --> 0:45:07.440
<v Speaker 2>is purposely just trying to move around and kind of

0:45:07.480 --> 0:45:09.920
<v Speaker 2>stay hidden from sight, if you will, by moving to

0:45:10.160 --> 0:45:14.359
<v Speaker 2>such you know, disparate locations to commit crimes. Right now,

0:45:14.400 --> 0:45:18.080
<v Speaker 2>I'll just say it seems like there's no question that

0:45:18.120 --> 0:45:22.000
<v Speaker 2>the offender is comfortable moving around, as you mentioned, it's

0:45:22.040 --> 0:45:24.200
<v Speaker 2>just why is he moving around? And right now there's

0:45:24.280 --> 0:45:27.080
<v Speaker 2>there's not enough information to try to discern that. And

0:45:27.160 --> 0:45:30.879
<v Speaker 2>from a geographic profile standpoint, I think what I would

0:45:30.960 --> 0:45:35.279
<v Speaker 2>be looking at is these paths that the offender is

0:45:35.320 --> 0:45:37.920
<v Speaker 2>having to take to go from one location to another.

0:45:38.560 --> 0:45:43.080
<v Speaker 2>Are they what we would consider primary arterial you know, roads,

0:45:43.120 --> 0:45:46.040
<v Speaker 2>if you will. And is the offender just following a

0:45:46.160 --> 0:45:50.000
<v Speaker 2>known path and is offending along a certain route as

0:45:50.040 --> 0:45:54.680
<v Speaker 2>he's proceeding north or is are there anchor points for

0:45:54.719 --> 0:45:57.520
<v Speaker 2>the offender? Does he have a connection to these locations

0:45:57.719 --> 0:46:00.759
<v Speaker 2>maybe for work, maybe because he's lived there, or he's

0:46:00.760 --> 0:46:05.520
<v Speaker 2>got family there, and while he's visiting that particular location,

0:46:05.840 --> 0:46:08.279
<v Speaker 2>he's deciding to go out and offend because he needs

0:46:08.320 --> 0:46:08.880
<v Speaker 2>more money.

0:46:09.200 --> 0:46:12.880
<v Speaker 1>Well, let's find out. We are now on the road

0:46:13.080 --> 0:46:17.040
<v Speaker 1>to Denver. We are well, as I said, fair Play, Colorado,

0:46:17.120 --> 0:46:19.480
<v Speaker 1>about fifty miles north of where all this other stuff

0:46:19.480 --> 0:46:24.760
<v Speaker 1>had been happening. And this is a campground. So people

0:46:24.880 --> 0:46:28.799
<v Speaker 1>find two bodies, both men. One is a twenty three

0:46:28.840 --> 0:46:33.200
<v Speaker 1>year old named Jacob Binkley. The other is a twenty

0:46:33.280 --> 0:46:38.720
<v Speaker 1>nine year old named Abram Shoop. Shoop becomes important because

0:46:38.719 --> 0:46:42.800
<v Speaker 1>his brother is a prominent lieutenant and he will ultimately

0:46:42.840 --> 0:46:44.879
<v Speaker 1>go on to be the first governor of the state

0:46:44.920 --> 0:46:49.120
<v Speaker 1>of Idaho and one of its first senators. And so

0:46:49.680 --> 0:46:52.879
<v Speaker 1>this happened with the Bloody Benders, which we've never talked

0:46:52.920 --> 0:46:55.000
<v Speaker 1>about that story. I've interviewed a lot of people about,

0:46:55.239 --> 0:46:58.080
<v Speaker 1>you know, which was a family I think in Kansas

0:46:58.080 --> 0:46:59.799
<v Speaker 1>who murdered a lot of people as they would come

0:46:59.840 --> 0:47:02.080
<v Speaker 1>by and try to stay at their inn. They were

0:47:02.080 --> 0:47:04.759
<v Speaker 1>getting away with it until there is a person who

0:47:04.800 --> 0:47:07.760
<v Speaker 1>they murder who is related to a very prominent person,

0:47:07.920 --> 0:47:10.960
<v Speaker 1>and that all hell breaks loose when that happens. So

0:47:11.200 --> 0:47:14.759
<v Speaker 1>you've got these two men. So you've got Jacob and Abram.

0:47:15.040 --> 0:47:17.719
<v Speaker 1>The bodies are found by an innkeeper who saw their

0:47:17.719 --> 0:47:23.680
<v Speaker 1>oxen grazing unaccompanied and recognize them because the men had

0:47:23.719 --> 0:47:27.279
<v Speaker 1>stayed with him the previous trips and so you know,

0:47:27.280 --> 0:47:30.160
<v Speaker 1>they had been regulars at this inn. The weather had

0:47:30.200 --> 0:47:33.080
<v Speaker 1>been nice the previous night, so it looks like instead

0:47:33.120 --> 0:47:35.160
<v Speaker 1>of staying at the end, these guys decided to go

0:47:35.200 --> 0:47:39.560
<v Speaker 1>ahead and camp, and they are both found at their campground,

0:47:39.600 --> 0:47:42.360
<v Speaker 1>which is right by a river. Jacob had been shot

0:47:42.440 --> 0:47:46.719
<v Speaker 1>once through the back, with the bullet becoming lodged at

0:47:46.760 --> 0:47:50.480
<v Speaker 1>the front of the chest and is found lying face

0:47:50.600 --> 0:47:54.239
<v Speaker 1>down on the river bank right at that campsite. They

0:47:54.239 --> 0:47:56.879
<v Speaker 1>don't know what kind of gun is used. Doesn't sound

0:47:56.960 --> 0:48:00.120
<v Speaker 1>like a shotgun? Does that sound like a revolver? Or

0:48:00.160 --> 0:48:01.880
<v Speaker 1>I mean, I guess we don't get a rifle, do that?

0:48:02.239 --> 0:48:05.000
<v Speaker 2>I guess right now, there's no information to indicate what

0:48:06.000 --> 0:48:10.720
<v Speaker 2>type of weapon was used. Now, the bullet, the projectile,

0:48:11.120 --> 0:48:14.920
<v Speaker 2>you know, penetrated through the victim's body from the back

0:48:15.360 --> 0:48:19.480
<v Speaker 2>and lodged at the chest. Now, there is a phenomenon

0:48:19.520 --> 0:48:22.040
<v Speaker 2>that happens where you can have a bullet, you know,

0:48:22.040 --> 0:48:25.600
<v Speaker 2>because as bullets pass through bodies, they lose energy and

0:48:25.760 --> 0:48:28.479
<v Speaker 2>sometimes you can have something as simple as a T shirt.

0:48:28.560 --> 0:48:31.720
<v Speaker 2>When the bullet comes out and exits out of the body,

0:48:31.920 --> 0:48:34.200
<v Speaker 2>the fabric of the T shirt is strong enough to

0:48:34.320 --> 0:48:36.880
<v Speaker 2>just kind of contain the bullet and keep the bullet

0:48:36.960 --> 0:48:38.880
<v Speaker 2>sort of at the exit wound. And this is what

0:48:38.920 --> 0:48:42.360
<v Speaker 2>we called a shored exit. Now, with him being faced

0:48:42.400 --> 0:48:44.640
<v Speaker 2>down on the river bank, you know, one of the

0:48:45.000 --> 0:48:47.120
<v Speaker 2>questions that I have is was he shot upright and

0:48:47.200 --> 0:48:50.600
<v Speaker 2>he collapsed or did the offender, after this guy is

0:48:50.640 --> 0:48:53.319
<v Speaker 2>made to late lay prone, you came up and shot

0:48:53.480 --> 0:48:55.360
<v Speaker 2>in the back and now you got the ground in

0:48:55.480 --> 0:48:58.520
<v Speaker 2>essen's preventing the bullet from exiting out the chest. And

0:48:58.560 --> 0:49:01.480
<v Speaker 2>it's also possible that the bullet just lost enough energy

0:49:01.520 --> 0:49:04.240
<v Speaker 2>as it passed through the upper torso of this victim

0:49:04.680 --> 0:49:07.040
<v Speaker 2>and never even had the energy to be able to

0:49:07.080 --> 0:49:09.200
<v Speaker 2>exit out in the first place. And that would tend

0:49:09.239 --> 0:49:12.839
<v Speaker 2>to suggest that that's a less powerful weapon. So it

0:49:12.880 --> 0:49:15.520
<v Speaker 2>all depends right now, I can't draw any conclusions as

0:49:15.560 --> 0:49:16.839
<v Speaker 2>to what kind of weapon was used.

0:49:17.719 --> 0:49:20.759
<v Speaker 1>My guess would be that he was standing up and

0:49:20.960 --> 0:49:23.839
<v Speaker 1>the only reason why is the way that the other

0:49:23.960 --> 0:49:28.319
<v Speaker 1>murder plays out, which is Abram Shoop. He's found at

0:49:28.360 --> 0:49:31.760
<v Speaker 1>the bottom of a gulch about four hundred yards away.

0:49:31.840 --> 0:49:35.480
<v Speaker 1>He had been stabbed three times in the chest and

0:49:35.560 --> 0:49:39.279
<v Speaker 1>his head had been mutilated. I don't know the specifics,

0:49:39.719 --> 0:49:42.200
<v Speaker 1>not with the cross I'm pretty sure carved into it,

0:49:42.239 --> 0:49:45.359
<v Speaker 1>but it had been mutilated. It appears that he ran

0:49:46.200 --> 0:49:49.839
<v Speaker 1>before collapsing at the bottom of the gulch, and they

0:49:49.840 --> 0:49:53.040
<v Speaker 1>had both been robbed. So I don't know if this

0:49:53.239 --> 0:49:55.680
<v Speaker 1>was a everybody lay down and then they're shot, but

0:49:55.840 --> 0:49:58.400
<v Speaker 1>Abram's the first one to not be shot. I think

0:49:58.480 --> 0:50:01.080
<v Speaker 1>he was stabbed. What does this sound like and all,

0:50:01.120 --> 0:50:03.640
<v Speaker 1>and definitely think about the number of offenders at this point.

0:50:03.800 --> 0:50:05.719
<v Speaker 1>What does this all sound like to you so far?

0:50:06.280 --> 0:50:11.680
<v Speaker 2>Well, obviously, with Abram being stabbed three times in the chest,

0:50:11.880 --> 0:50:15.320
<v Speaker 2>you know, it's indicating that the offender is very close.

0:50:15.360 --> 0:50:18.879
<v Speaker 2>I mean, you are dealing with face to face interactions

0:50:18.920 --> 0:50:22.760
<v Speaker 2>between the offender and Abram. The fact that he's able

0:50:22.800 --> 0:50:26.759
<v Speaker 2>to run before collapsing, which is something that you see

0:50:26.760 --> 0:50:30.560
<v Speaker 2>with stabbings. You know, even if it's a fatal stab

0:50:30.600 --> 0:50:33.360
<v Speaker 2>wound that's inflicted, it takes time for the you know,

0:50:33.440 --> 0:50:37.920
<v Speaker 2>the the bleeding to cause the person to in essence

0:50:38.000 --> 0:50:41.719
<v Speaker 2>lose consciousness, right, And so sometimes you do see stabbing victims.

0:50:42.160 --> 0:50:44.360
<v Speaker 2>They receive fatal stab wounds, but then they're able to

0:50:44.440 --> 0:50:47.640
<v Speaker 2>run a distance and then they collapse a distance further

0:50:47.760 --> 0:50:52.840
<v Speaker 2>down that the head being mutilated. I'm just kind of wondering,

0:50:53.440 --> 0:50:55.400
<v Speaker 2>you know, And this is where sequencing would come in.

0:50:55.520 --> 0:51:00.239
<v Speaker 2>It's just is this just possibly in some ways the

0:51:01.239 --> 0:51:05.680
<v Speaker 2>offender is trying to stab the victim, and now you

0:51:05.760 --> 0:51:09.759
<v Speaker 2>have incisive injuries and stab wounds to Abram's head as

0:51:09.760 --> 0:51:13.000
<v Speaker 2>he's warding off the knife attack. And then of course

0:51:13.000 --> 0:51:15.439
<v Speaker 2>there's some stabs to the chest and Abram is able

0:51:15.480 --> 0:51:19.920
<v Speaker 2>to get away before he collapses. So I'm not you know,

0:51:19.960 --> 0:51:22.200
<v Speaker 2>I don't know what to make about the head mutilation.

0:51:22.320 --> 0:51:24.800
<v Speaker 2>If it's if the offender is purposely coming up and

0:51:25.160 --> 0:51:28.239
<v Speaker 2>trying to do something like that, then that sounds like

0:51:28.280 --> 0:51:31.560
<v Speaker 2>there's a personal aspect to that, you know, between the

0:51:31.560 --> 0:51:35.080
<v Speaker 2>offender and Abram. Again, you have the use of two

0:51:35.080 --> 0:51:41.680
<v Speaker 2>different weapons. You have Jacob being shot and Abram being stabbed,

0:51:41.920 --> 0:51:44.680
<v Speaker 2>and they were both robbed. How do you control two

0:51:44.760 --> 0:51:48.080
<v Speaker 2>men with the gun? Absolutely, you know, give me, give

0:51:48.080 --> 0:51:52.680
<v Speaker 2>me your money. And then you get into basically close

0:51:52.760 --> 0:51:57.400
<v Speaker 2>quarters with Abram with a knife, and now you have Jacob,

0:51:57.680 --> 0:51:59.640
<v Speaker 2>you know, running away, and you're able, you know, once

0:51:59.680 --> 0:52:03.680
<v Speaker 2>you've you know, stabbed Abrahm. Now you pull out your

0:52:03.680 --> 0:52:06.319
<v Speaker 2>gun and you shoot Jacob in the back. I mean

0:52:06.400 --> 0:52:11.080
<v Speaker 2>that's a possibility. Or you control these two men with

0:52:11.239 --> 0:52:14.000
<v Speaker 2>two offenders. Yeah, one's armed with a knife and one's

0:52:14.080 --> 0:52:15.080
<v Speaker 2>armed with a gun.

0:52:15.440 --> 0:52:19.880
<v Speaker 1>Okay, I forgot to tell you that these two murders

0:52:19.920 --> 0:52:24.279
<v Speaker 1>happened fifty miles away from the other ones, about eight

0:52:24.360 --> 0:52:28.080
<v Speaker 1>days after the last ones, after John at the way station.

0:52:28.560 --> 0:52:31.440
<v Speaker 1>So these are happening to me so quickly, especially with

0:52:31.520 --> 0:52:34.520
<v Speaker 1>the distances that you know the offender is traveling. So

0:52:35.040 --> 0:52:37.279
<v Speaker 1>it's clear they've been able to get away with this.

0:52:37.280 --> 0:52:40.280
<v Speaker 2>So far right, you know. And the interesting thing about

0:52:40.280 --> 0:52:46.040
<v Speaker 2>this is obviously you have a series. It appears, you know,

0:52:46.120 --> 0:52:48.800
<v Speaker 2>even though back in the day they don't have DNA

0:52:48.880 --> 0:52:52.080
<v Speaker 2>to say it's the same person. But there's enough mo

0:52:52.080 --> 0:52:55.359
<v Speaker 2>o characteristics that you say, yeah, you have somebody that's

0:52:55.400 --> 0:53:01.480
<v Speaker 2>going around killing men and robbing them, you know, financially motivated.

0:53:01.920 --> 0:53:05.480
<v Speaker 2>So you know, by definition, for some people you could

0:53:05.480 --> 0:53:09.840
<v Speaker 2>say this is a serial killer. You know. Now, this

0:53:09.960 --> 0:53:13.200
<v Speaker 2>is a very different type of psychology than the fantasy

0:53:13.239 --> 0:53:15.960
<v Speaker 2>motivated killer. At this point in time based on what

0:53:16.000 --> 0:53:18.719
<v Speaker 2>you've told me. Now, there may be aspects where this

0:53:18.920 --> 0:53:22.200
<v Speaker 2>is an offender that really gets off on killing men,

0:53:23.160 --> 0:53:26.400
<v Speaker 2>but it appears that he's doing this for financial purposes

0:53:26.520 --> 0:53:29.120
<v Speaker 2>at this point in time, and I'm not convinced it's

0:53:29.120 --> 0:53:33.839
<v Speaker 2>a single offender at this stage. So it's it's fascinating

0:53:33.840 --> 0:53:39.120
<v Speaker 2>from that perspective, and so I'm really curious to see

0:53:39.160 --> 0:53:43.160
<v Speaker 2>what other cases you know, are part of this series

0:53:43.239 --> 0:53:45.839
<v Speaker 2>and ultimately who is the person responsible.

0:53:46.320 --> 0:53:51.120
<v Speaker 1>Well, about three weeks later, we have another murder, but

0:53:51.600 --> 0:53:54.040
<v Speaker 1>we have a survivor also, oh, we have a witness.

0:53:54.520 --> 0:53:58.880
<v Speaker 1>We will talk about all of that next week. Because

0:53:59.280 --> 0:54:01.520
<v Speaker 1>I did not know until about five minutes ago that

0:54:01.560 --> 0:54:04.759
<v Speaker 1>this would need to be it's harder because I just

0:54:04.800 --> 0:54:06.960
<v Speaker 1>told Alexis I didn't know you were going to like

0:54:07.000 --> 0:54:09.399
<v Speaker 1>this case so much, and that's great. I would rather,

0:54:09.800 --> 0:54:12.480
<v Speaker 1>you know, have to expand it. But we we have

0:54:12.560 --> 0:54:14.680
<v Speaker 1>a lot lot more to talk about.

0:54:15.160 --> 0:54:18.080
<v Speaker 2>Nope, you and right now, this is very akin to

0:54:18.120 --> 0:54:20.680
<v Speaker 2>where you have a series of robberies, you know, maybe

0:54:20.680 --> 0:54:23.319
<v Speaker 2>not necessarily resulting in homicide, but you do have one

0:54:23.320 --> 0:54:26.840
<v Speaker 2>offender that's going around and robbing people for financial purposes,

0:54:27.160 --> 0:54:29.200
<v Speaker 2>and so I would say it's it's very similar to

0:54:29.400 --> 0:54:31.800
<v Speaker 2>a modern version of this type of crime.

0:54:32.200 --> 0:54:36.120
<v Speaker 1>Well, we will talk about this type of crime next week.

0:54:36.400 --> 0:54:38.279
<v Speaker 2>All right, I'm looking forward to it again.

0:54:42.719 --> 0:54:45.240
<v Speaker 1>This has been an exactly right production.

0:54:45.239 --> 0:54:48.120
<v Speaker 2>For our sources and show notes go to exactly Rightmedia

0:54:48.200 --> 0:54:50.640
<v Speaker 2>dot com slash Buried Bones Sources.

0:54:50.840 --> 0:54:53.200
<v Speaker 1>Our senior producer is Alexis Amrosi.

0:54:53.520 --> 0:54:56.480
<v Speaker 2>Research by Alison Trumble and Kate Winkler Dawson.

0:54:56.719 --> 0:54:58.960
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0:54:59.280 --> 0:55:01.560
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0:55:01.840 --> 0:55:03.880
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0:55:04.120 --> 0:55:08.240
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0:55:08.520 --> 0:55:11.919
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0:55:12.000 --> 0:55:13.160
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0:55:13.600 --> 0:55:16.160
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0:55:16.200 --> 0:55:18.200
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0:55:18.200 --> 0:55:20.279
<v Speaker 2>criminal mind, is available now.

0:55:20.320 --> 0:55:24.600
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0:55:24.600 --> 0:55:26.680
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0:55:27.000 --> 0:55:30.719
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