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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the

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Speaker 1: last twenty five years writing about true crime.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 2: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 1: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most

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Speaker 1: compelling true crimes.

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Speaker 2: And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring

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Speaker 2: new insights to old mysteries.

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Speaker 1: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 1: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 2: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 1: This is Buried Bones.

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Speaker 2: Bay, Kate. How are you doing?

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Speaker 1: I'm doing great, Paul. I wonder if there's anything different

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Speaker 1: about me that you're noticing.

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Speaker 2: Well, your hair is different, very good.

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Speaker 1: What's different about it? Do you think?

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Speaker 2: Well, you're you've got it brushed back.

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Speaker 1: Okay, hold on, I'll make it clear.

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Speaker 2: Is it shorter? Is it curly?

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Speaker 1: Curly? Yes? I am a girl with curls, and I

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Speaker 1: straighten my hair on special occasions. I et bery bones

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Speaker 1: and some book events. But I am definitely naturally curly,

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Speaker 1: like one of my kids is. So I would like

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Speaker 1: to say, Officially, I wanted to try something new, different look,

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Speaker 1: just see, you know, spice things up. Unofficially, I didn't

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Speaker 1: feel like straightening my hair.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so this is you just just natural Kate today, right?

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Speaker 1: I mean, well, I mean I did some stuff, but

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Speaker 1: normally I have a you know, I mean I've got

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Speaker 1: my glasses on. Normally, I'm mean I have a ponytail going.

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Speaker 1: So this is a little different. So we'll have to see.

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Speaker 1: I don't want to take a pole or anything, but

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Speaker 1: I might go back and forth unless unless there's like

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Speaker 1: a mass objection trend that happens, which I don't think

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Speaker 1: it will.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you look great, thank you.

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Speaker 1: And I also want my kid to know the one

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Speaker 1: who has a real gosh, he has gorgeous long, curly hair.

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Speaker 1: I want heard it know that. You know, I don't

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Speaker 1: always when I go fancy, sometimes the curls are the

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Speaker 1: way to go, you know.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I like it.

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Speaker 1: Is this the same haircut you've always had high school everything?

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Speaker 1: And don't joke about your thinning hair thing? Hair is fine.

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Speaker 1: I know men are sensitive, but I mean, have you

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Speaker 1: ever changed up your look very much?

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Speaker 2: No? You know, it's definitely different than when I was

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Speaker 2: in high school, you know, back in the eighties, kind

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Speaker 2: of the feathered back hair style for you know, the

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Speaker 2: guys was in and so I had a part of

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Speaker 2: down the middle and feathered back. And I also had

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Speaker 2: a mustache in high school throughout high school, which when

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Speaker 2: I look back at my yearbook photos, I was like,

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Speaker 2: what the hell were you thinking, Paul, But you know,

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Speaker 2: it is what it is. Basically, when I went to

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Speaker 2: the Police Academy in nineteen ninety four, you know, I

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Speaker 2: was working in law enforcement, and though I could have

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Speaker 2: worn my hair differently pretty much, it was always just short.

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Speaker 2: You talk about the thinning hair, you know. At one

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Speaker 2: point when I noticed I was my hair was thinning,

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Speaker 2: I decided, you know, I'll just do the shave at

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Speaker 2: bro and I did a really close buzz cut. And

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Speaker 2: I remember coming home and my wife and my oldest

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Speaker 2: daughter they both looked at me. They saw my haircut,

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Speaker 2: and in essence they both started to dry heave because

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Speaker 2: I looked horrible. I'm not one of those guys that

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Speaker 2: can be bald and look good. Unfortunately they started to heave. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: but right now, my hair is probably the longest it's

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Speaker 2: been in a quarter century. To be frank. Really, I'm

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Speaker 2: growing it out a little little bit, and that way

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Speaker 2: I can next time I get it cut, you know,

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Speaker 2: I'll give the you know, the the barber some options.

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Speaker 2: Maybe I'll change my look up, maybe I'll shave it

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Speaker 2: off you. I'll stay tuned.

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Speaker 1: You should talk to your wife and your daughter before

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Speaker 1: you do anything. Clearly demoid any trauma. Alexis our producers

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Speaker 1: tiny med eval, and she thinks we both need to

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Speaker 1: give her our high school photos for social media.

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Speaker 2: Like a senior yearbook photo or the feather back where

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Speaker 2: you're talking.

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Speaker 1: Yes, the Miami vice, I think is probably what it is.

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Speaker 2: I've got my eyearbooks right up right across the room

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Speaker 2: from me. I can you know, scan something and get

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Speaker 2: it to Alexis if that's what she's asking for. And

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Speaker 2: I don't have a problem with that.

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Speaker 1: We pretty much always do what Alexis asks us to do,

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Speaker 1: so I think we're going to have to do that.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, listen, I was.

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Speaker 1: I was not always at my best in high school either,

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Speaker 1: and I can't remember. I have a bunch of my friends.

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Speaker 1: I have a group of seven girlfriends who are my

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Speaker 1: best friends. From a couple of them, Tina and Angie

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Speaker 1: starting from middle school, so for a gazillion years, and

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Speaker 1: we always look at high school yearbook stuff and make

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Speaker 1: fun of ourselves. So I'm not always at my best

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Speaker 1: in high school. But the whole point is that in

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Speaker 1: high school I wore my hair down. I never wore

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Speaker 1: it as a ponytail. And I don't know when I started,

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Speaker 1: probably the mom thing when I was just like, I'm

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Speaker 1: either going to tear my hair out or I have

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Speaker 1: to put in a ponytail.

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Speaker 2: So keep it easy right now.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So we'll see how this goes. I mean, don't

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Speaker 1: be surprised if I go back to my normal straightened hair,

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Speaker 1: because I do wear it curly so often. But you know,

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Speaker 1: I like to change stuff up and you know all that.

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Speaker 1: So there you go.

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Speaker 2: Well, I'll stay on top of you.

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Speaker 1: How's that? That's the I think the key ingredient to

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Speaker 1: any relationship is you're always kind of throwing curveballs at

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Speaker 1: your person, you know, kind of like, well what do

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Speaker 1: you think about this? So there we go.

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Speaker 2: Keep it exciting, right.

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Speaker 1: Well, I think we'll say right now talking about keeping

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Speaker 1: and exciting, that's where we're going. This is the furthest

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Speaker 1: back we've been I would have to say in quite

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Speaker 1: a while, we're in Civil War era when we talk

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Speaker 1: about this story, which as it unfolds, real history geeks

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Speaker 1: might recognize, you know, where we're going with this, So

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Speaker 1: we will see what you think.

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Speaker 2: That sounds good.

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Speaker 1: Okay, let's set the scene. Get ready for a history lesson,

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Speaker 1: mister Paul Holes. I'm game, and we are actually going

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Speaker 1: to be in your state. We're going to Colorado. Oh

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Speaker 1: so it's actually not even Colorado the state yet, it's

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Speaker 1: Colorado Territory. Do you know much about Colorado history, just

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Speaker 1: as far as establishing borders and all of that kind

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Speaker 1: of stuff. Who was there before?

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Speaker 2: No, you know, I don't think I know anything. I

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Speaker 2: actually know Texas better because I had to. I did

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Speaker 2: seventh grade in Texas, and at least at the time

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Speaker 2: I went to school seventh grade, you had to have

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Speaker 2: go through Texas history.

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Speaker 1: And what a history. Okay, let's start with we're going

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Speaker 1: to Colorado and we are in March of eighteen sixty three,

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Speaker 1: smack in the middle of the Civil War. The Civil

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Speaker 1: War doesn't have anything to do with it, but you know,

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Speaker 1: you have to think about how much the country's expanding

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Speaker 1: at this point. You know, there's the wars happening. There

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Speaker 1: are people divided in not only states and cities and

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Speaker 1: families really over you know who they should side with.

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Speaker 1: So in Colorado Territory, officially its union, but very very

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Speaker 1: very divided. And I think part of that has to

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Speaker 1: do with the history. So I tried to really streamline this.

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Speaker 1: Ali did a great job, one of our researchers. Ali

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Speaker 1: did a great job giving me a ton of history,

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Speaker 1: and I wanted to streamline it because I just thought

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Speaker 1: you were just going to jump off a bridge or

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Speaker 1: something like three pages of history, which I adore. So, Okay,

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Speaker 1: we are in now Colorado Territory. We're in the southernmost portion,

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Speaker 1: which is called the San Louis Valley. Are you familiar

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Speaker 1: with that area at all? I don't know Colorado very

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Speaker 1: well as far as geography goes.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm fairly sure that probably on my way out

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Speaker 2: to Telluride, I went down south and then went west

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Speaker 2: to get out to Telluride, and San Luis Valley sounds familiar.

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Speaker 2: It's either that or I had consulted with Wichita, Texas

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Speaker 2: authorities and had driven back from Wichita Falls and came

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Speaker 2: up through New Mexico and then the southern part of

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Speaker 2: southeast part of Colorado, and so maybe that's also where

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Speaker 2: what I'm thinking of.

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Speaker 1: My experience with Colorado honestly is pretty much confined to Denver,

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Speaker 1: a little bit of skiing, and then I went to

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Speaker 1: Colorado City, I think is where I went to. So

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Speaker 1: the people who live in the Colorado Territory, this area

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Speaker 1: used to be Mexican citizens because it was with Mexico

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Speaker 1: twenty years earlier than it became New Mexico. So when

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Speaker 1: the property ownership happened with Mexico, you have all of

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Speaker 1: these people who have different plots of land. That's the ownership.

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Speaker 1: These plots of land go back for generations. When the

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Speaker 1: area becomes New Mexico, then you know there's no deeds

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Speaker 1: or paperwork really to back it up, and it doesn't

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Speaker 1: seem to matter because culturally New Mexico was really aligned

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Speaker 1: with the people of Mexico, so there were no problems.

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Speaker 1: You see where I'm heading here, there's a lot of

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Speaker 1: discontent when we have a new population come in. So

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Speaker 1: before this new population comes in, the residents mostly live

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Speaker 1: in what's called plazas. These are small adobe villages that

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Speaker 1: house a couple of different families. When this part of

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Speaker 1: the area, the southern part of the area of what

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Speaker 1: is now Colorado becomes a part of the territory, so

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Speaker 1: you know, New Mexico gives it up, or it's taken

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Speaker 1: from New Mexico and it's made into this new boundary.

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Speaker 1: This happens in eighteen sixty. So there had been a

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Speaker 1: gold rush, which I probably you know, I always think

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Speaker 1: about the California gold Rush, but this is a Colorado

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Speaker 1: gold rush. Do you know much about that?

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Speaker 2: Well, I wouldn't say I know a lot about the

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Speaker 2: history of the gold rush. But one of the areas

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Speaker 2: that I go with my jeep because I live on

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Speaker 2: the side of Cheyenne Mountain and within ten minutes I

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Speaker 2: can be on the back side of that mountain. And

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Speaker 2: there is a road, old stage road that snakes its

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Speaker 2: way through the mountains out to Cripple Creek, which is

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Speaker 2: where there's this huge mine. And this road used to

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Speaker 2: be railroad, and I believe it was for the you know,

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Speaker 2: the metals that were being mined out of that mine,

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Speaker 2: and some of that I believe was gold, or at

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Speaker 2: least there was, you know, one of the one of

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Speaker 2: the roads out there is a gold camp road, so

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Speaker 2: I'm sure gold was being mined out just on the

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Speaker 2: other side of the mountain from where I live.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And I, like I said, did not know that

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Speaker 1: there was a big gold rush in Colorado. There was.

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Speaker 1: There are an awful lot of white set flooding the area.

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Speaker 1: Now we're going to have problems in that part of

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Speaker 1: the territory. You have people who were Mexican residents who

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Speaker 1: are now residents of Colorado, and you have white settlers

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Speaker 1: coming and taking away land. And so there's one of

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Speaker 1: the conflicts. And you know, the other thing is then

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Speaker 1: they're saying, these people who were in this territory, they

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Speaker 1: have not moved, it's the boundary that's moved. When they

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Speaker 1: were in New Mexico, everybody left them alone. When they

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Speaker 1: became a part of the Colorado territory, it was much

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Speaker 1: more inclined culturally towards the white settlers. And so this

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Speaker 1: is where they're not getting any protection, and this is

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Speaker 1: where we're having some issues. And all of this is,

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Speaker 1: you know, part of this story. So are you following me?

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Speaker 2: I'm following you. Yeah, you know, I'm I'm just you know,

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Speaker 2: I'm starting to key in on you know, motives for crime.

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Speaker 1: Now what is this? This is for me, I would

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Speaker 1: call this historical context, right, but as an investigator, it's

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Speaker 1: not victimology. What would this be called? Where you need

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Speaker 1: to know is this a high crime area or there

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Speaker 1: was a riot here, you know, two years ago and

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Speaker 1: it might be pertinent. What is there a phrase for that?

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Speaker 2: Well, there is a discipline that's environmental criminology, and this

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Speaker 2: is how the environment and possibly even the social economic

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Speaker 2: aspects within that environment influence criminality. And so now when

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Speaker 2: you start talking about Colorado Territory, you're having different people

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Speaker 2: coming in and you know, the occupants that have been

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Speaker 2: there had a certain lifestyle, and now that lifestyle is

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Speaker 2: being influenced and there's going to be conflict that is developing.

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Speaker 2: And some of that conflict is developing over the environment

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Speaker 2: and what's within the environment, what's within the geography in

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Speaker 2: the area. Now, this is on with what you're talking about,

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Speaker 2: it's on a much bigger scale. Typically, when I'm going

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Speaker 2: into a town or a city and I'm looking at

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Speaker 2: a case, I'm wanting to know about, Okay, what is

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Speaker 2: this neighborhood like, especially if it was forty years ago

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Speaker 2: on a cold case. What was it like then? And

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Speaker 2: so that's where I'm starting to take a look at

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Speaker 2: what the environment was in which the crime occurred.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so we know the environment. It's tension filled, and

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Speaker 1: there are an awful lot of former Mexican citizens who

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Speaker 1: are saying our land is being taken by white settlers

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Speaker 1: and they're not getting kind of any backup from anybody

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Speaker 1: who's in leadership with the Colorado Territory. So here's where

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Speaker 1: we begin. We'll talk about several things, and you're going

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Speaker 1: to ask details, and I probably am not going to

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Speaker 1: have the details, but you know, we'll see kind of

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Speaker 1: how this unfolds. Just be very understanding if I can't

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Speaker 1: answer some of your questions. And no, we're definitely going

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Speaker 1: in a particular direction. Okay, Okay, could I be any

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Speaker 1: more cryptic? Do you want me to be more cryptic

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Speaker 1: than that's pretty cryptic, Kate.

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Speaker 2: I'm so used to it now, Kate, I just roll

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Speaker 2: with the punches.

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Speaker 1: This is to happen, but it might not happen, but

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Speaker 1: we'll see. I'll let you know in thirty minutes that's

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Speaker 1: gonna happen. That would drive me crazy. Okay. So this

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Speaker 1: is March eighteenth eighteen sixty three, and there's a guy

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Speaker 1: named Franklin William Bruce, and he has a house that

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Speaker 1: is near Canyon City and he owns a saw mill. Okay,

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Speaker 1: it sounds like Canyon City in the eighteen sixties, of course,

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Speaker 1: like much of the territory would have been farmland, and

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Speaker 1: now we have these sawmills. So Franklin is leaving Canyon

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Speaker 1: City to go to the sawmill that he owns, which

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Speaker 1: is about twelve miles away. So he gets on a

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Speaker 1: horse drawn wagon. We're in that era. So Franklin had

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Speaker 1: moved to Colorado from Wisconsin about three years earlier, when

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Speaker 1: a lot of other people came for the Gold Rush.

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Speaker 1: He was a prospector and now he's pivoted to farming

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Speaker 1: and selling lumber from his sawmill. He's in his fifties

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Speaker 1: and he has a wife named Ruth and four children.

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Speaker 1: And there are a couple of kids who old enough

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Speaker 1: to work in the sawmill. I will say, boy, that

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Speaker 1: could be almost any age if they could hold a

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Speaker 1: piece of wood, that would have been a kid who

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Speaker 1: could work in a saw mill. So child labor laws

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Speaker 1: and everything else, we don't have a great idea of

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Speaker 1: the range of the ages of these kids, but it

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Speaker 1: doesn't come too much into play. Okay, Franklin's log cabin

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Speaker 1: is twelve miles away. He gets on the horse and

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Speaker 1: wagon and goes. Sometime later that day, the horses come

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Speaker 1: back to the house pulling an empty wagon. I know

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Speaker 1: that this is a kind of a question, sort of

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Speaker 1: out of left field. But how do they know? I mean,

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Speaker 1: how do they know not to stay? Are they looking

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Speaker 1: for food? What is happening? Twelve miles that's a long way.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think some of our listeners probably have expertise

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Speaker 2: with horses. This is I think it's always amazing, you know,

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Speaker 2: these types of stories like family dog goes missing and

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Speaker 2: then you know they move and you know, years later

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Speaker 2: the dog all of a sudden shows up at the

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Speaker 2: new locate. How do these animals do that? You know?

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Speaker 2: So I just yeah, I think, you know, it's interesting

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Speaker 2: with the horses, obviously, it's like, well, we'res Franklin, Bruce,

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Speaker 2: you know what happened? Why? You know, why aren't these

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Speaker 2: horses tied up at the sawmill? Sounds like something bad

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Speaker 2: happened to Franklin and route to the saw mill. But again,

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Speaker 2: the horse is coming back. That's that's fascinating. I mean,

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Speaker 2: I don't I can't explain it. It's just it's really cool.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it is, but alarming to Franklin's family, of course.

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Speaker 1: So the newspapers of the time say that his youngest

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Speaker 1: son decided to go up I'm assuming, on the horse

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Speaker 1: and cart to go figure out what happened to his dad.

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Speaker 1: He's referred to in the eighteen sixties early nineteen hundreds

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Speaker 1: in these articles as a young boy, which to me

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Speaker 1: could be pretty young, because they probably would not have

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Speaker 1: set a twelve year old and or a thirteen year

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Speaker 1: old working on a farm in a saw mill as

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Speaker 1: a young boy. That would have been a young man.

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Speaker 1: So he could have been an eight year old. I

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Speaker 1: don't know why he went. I don't know where the

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Speaker 1: older kids were, but he went, and he came back

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Speaker 1: and said, Dad looks dead. So he had been shot

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Speaker 1: through the heart. He was carrying a handgun. I don't

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Speaker 1: know what kind, but it's still in its holster. There's

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Speaker 1: conflicting accounts about whether he was found inside the sawmill

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Speaker 1: or if he had been outside the sawmill near where

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Speaker 1: his horse had been grazing. What certain is that he

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Speaker 1: had been shot once. There is an account in several

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Speaker 1: of the newspapers that a cross had been carved into

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Speaker 1: his chest. Oh, I don't know if that falls into

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Speaker 1: a ritualistic or what that means just yet.

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Speaker 2: Do we know anything more about the cross? Is this

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Speaker 2: like a Christian cross? Is this, you know, something different

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Speaker 2: than what I'm envisioning. Do you have any details on that?

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Speaker 1: I think it is your standard cross, Just.

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Speaker 2: A cross, okay, yep. Which obviously there might be religious

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Speaker 2: connotations related to the cross that the offender is conveying.

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Speaker 2: There also potentially could just be you know how crosses,

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Speaker 2: I'm thinking about Arlington National Cemetery, you know how crosses

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Speaker 2: are used to basically mark the location of the deceased.

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Speaker 2: And was that just you know where the offender is

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Speaker 2: coming up? And is just you know, in essence, I've

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Speaker 2: killed this guy and here he is, so right now,

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Speaker 2: I couldn't really draw any conclusions as to what the

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Speaker 2: offender is thinking about the significance of the cross. However,

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Speaker 2: the offender is sending a message. Franklin Bruce is dead.

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Speaker 2: He's not doing this to send a message to Franklin Bruce.

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Speaker 2: He's sending a message to somebody who's going to either

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Speaker 2: find the body or to some other entities, you know,

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Speaker 2: group of people you know, in which now it's like,

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Speaker 2: you know, what's going on with Franklin, Bruce, you know this? Yeah?

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Speaker 2: Is he being specifically targeted or is this more of

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Speaker 2: he just happened to be a victim of opportunity. He

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Speaker 2: and the offender or offenders killed him, And it's like,

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Speaker 2: you send anybody else down this direction, you're going to

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Speaker 2: you know, suffer the same fate or something to that effect.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And I had wondered if it was to benefit

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Speaker 1: Franklin somehow. I don't know what that would mean, putting

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Speaker 1: a cross on him that makes him.

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Speaker 2: Go to heaven like maybe like a like yeah, a

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Speaker 2: spiritual thing.

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Speaker 1: Just something. I mean that seems not very kind. But

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Speaker 1: I mean, of course they couldn't really tell or I

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Speaker 1: don't have notes that say whether this happened before or

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Speaker 1: after he was shot. I imagine after, of course, But.

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Speaker 2: I wouldn't argue against that thought. You know, this is

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Speaker 2: where the offender may be killing Franklin in this world

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Speaker 2: in order to deal with whatever's going on in this

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Speaker 2: world aspect, but is conscious of Franklin's spirit and wants

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Speaker 2: to ensure that the spirit is moving on in whatever

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Speaker 2: the religious philosophy. The offender had.

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Speaker 1: One of the things that I want to I know

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Speaker 1: this is going to be disconcerting, but we have to

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Speaker 1: move on from this story because this will be a

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Speaker 1: series of things and so this is not something where

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Speaker 1: we need to examine Franklin's inner circle. I promise, so

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Speaker 1: this will be We've got to go next to another

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Speaker 1: group of people. Is that okay? Or does that make

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Speaker 1: you fairly uncomfortable?

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Speaker 2: Again, I'll just roll with it, Kate.

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Speaker 1: Sorry, that's what I wish everybody said that to me. Okay, Kate,

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Speaker 1: we'll do what you say. But let's just we'll roll

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Speaker 1: with it the next night. So March nineteenth, eighteen sixty three.

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Speaker 1: This is near Colorado City, Colorado. There are a couple

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Speaker 1: of men who are building a new sawmill and there's

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Speaker 1: a you know, there's a little cabin nearby that they're

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Speaker 1: sleeping in, you know, so that they can get the

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Speaker 1: saw mill done. They notice that the cabin is dark,

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Speaker 1: so this is just a temporary home for them until

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Speaker 1: they're done. The reason they're alarmed that it's dark is

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Speaker 1: because one of the having mates, one of the workers,

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Speaker 1: who's a guy named Henry Harkins, is supposed to be

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Speaker 1: making them dinner. And every night when it's gotten dark

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Speaker 1: and two of the men are still working on the sawmill,

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Speaker 1: they could see through the cracks of the logs the lamplight,

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Speaker 1: and so this night there's no lights through the cracks

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Speaker 1: of the logs. So I guess they're facing a non window.

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Speaker 1: They might have a window at all in here, but

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Speaker 1: isn't it I thought that was really interesting. I mean,

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Speaker 1: we've talked about laundry hanging up, you know, as a

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Speaker 1: sign that this woman would never have done this because

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Speaker 1: it rained last night, all of these signals of alarm,

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Speaker 1: and these guys were alarmed because the light was out

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Speaker 1: when Henry was supposed to be cooking dinner for everyone.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so now they must go explore this, right, what's

402
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Speaker 2: you know, where's Henry? What's up with Henry? Because they're hungry,

403
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Speaker 2: they want their food.

404
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Speaker 1: Right, they're hungry and irritated. Maybe he fell asleep. As

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Speaker 1: they approached the darkened cabin, they realized that Henry has

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Speaker 1: been attacked. It's not sir, whether he's inside or outside

407
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Speaker 1: the cabin. But what we do know is that he's

408
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Speaker 1: been shot in the forehead. The men think with a revolver,

409
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Speaker 1: but I don't know whether they retrieved a bullet or not.

410
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Speaker 1: And then they said that he was also attacked with

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Speaker 1: an axe. So there's a pertinent piece of information. And

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Speaker 1: then there's what the men say Henry's body was in

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Speaker 1: a state of the pertinent part of information is that

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Speaker 1: this is a group of men who came with Franklin

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Speaker 1: and his family to be prospectors. So they knew each other,

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Speaker 1: but they're quite a bit of part. They live kind

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Speaker 1: of in the same little region, but they are miles

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Speaker 1: and miles and miles apart where they might not ever

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Speaker 1: see each other.

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Speaker 2: Right, No, I had to look up where Colorado City

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Speaker 2: is because here in Colorado Springs there's old Colorado City.

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Speaker 2: And it was like, is this you know in the Springs,

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Speaker 2: But I believe where you're talking about this is. It

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Speaker 2: looks like it's about thirty thirty miles south of Pueblo,

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Speaker 2: which is about again about thirty miles south of Colorado Springs.

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Speaker 2: And then I can see it's really south of Canyon

427
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Speaker 2: City by about a good thirty miles maybe, Yeah, So

428
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Speaker 2: I could you know back in the day. That would

429
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Speaker 2: be a pretty significant distance to have to cover for

430
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Speaker 2: these groups that know each other to see each.

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Speaker 1: Other, right, right, And I mean there's horseback and carts

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Speaker 1: and everything. But you're right, okay. Let me tell you

433
00:23:22,040 --> 00:23:24,399
Speaker 1: about Henry and what happens. I told you that he

434
00:23:24,520 --> 00:23:28,639
Speaker 1: had been shot through the forehead, so Franklin had been

435
00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:32,800
Speaker 1: shot through the heart. There is a large gash in

436
00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:37,160
Speaker 1: Henry's head from an axe, they presume from his This

437
00:23:37,240 --> 00:23:40,520
Speaker 1: is graphic, y'all. I mean, if you know you're squeamish

438
00:23:40,520 --> 00:23:43,879
Speaker 1: at all. It's a gash that goes from his forehead

439
00:23:44,119 --> 00:23:47,439
Speaker 1: to his mouth. There are two wounds on his chest.

440
00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:51,359
Speaker 1: They are each four inches long and about three inches apart.

441
00:23:51,560 --> 00:23:54,520
Speaker 1: On the left side of his chest. It looks like

442
00:23:54,560 --> 00:23:57,080
Speaker 1: he's been hit on the sides of his head with

443
00:23:57,560 --> 00:24:01,040
Speaker 1: the blunt side of an axe. And the men find

444
00:24:01,119 --> 00:24:04,119
Speaker 1: two pieces of skull in some of Henry's brain on

445
00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:08,040
Speaker 1: top of his head, and the cabin has been ransacked.

446
00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:12,240
Speaker 1: I don't see where Franklin had been robbed, but this

447
00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:15,520
Speaker 1: is major damage. I don't know how close these guys

448
00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:19,800
Speaker 1: are close enough to see light peeking through you know, logs,

449
00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:23,280
Speaker 1: so I don't know how this happened without these men

450
00:24:23,359 --> 00:24:23,760
Speaker 1: knowing it.

451
00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:28,080
Speaker 2: My initial questions, which you probably can't answer, was there

452
00:24:28,080 --> 00:24:32,560
Speaker 2: any evidence of distance that the firearm was from this?

453
00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:36,080
Speaker 2: This is this something that the offenders up close, you know,

454
00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:39,040
Speaker 2: and then so we would see firearms discharge evidence on

455
00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:44,440
Speaker 2: Henry's forehead? Or was this from a distance? And in essence,

456
00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:49,720
Speaker 2: you know, the offender was able to incapacitate and likely

457
00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:52,879
Speaker 2: kill Henry. But then did he used the axe on

458
00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:57,639
Speaker 2: Henry afterwards? Or was there a physical altercation prior to

459
00:24:57,680 --> 00:25:00,359
Speaker 2: the shooting in which an axe was used, and then

460
00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:03,160
Speaker 2: in essence Henry was finished off with a gunshot.

461
00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:07,040
Speaker 1: I don't know the answer to that. I'm so confused

462
00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:11,439
Speaker 1: about how that could happen. A gun shot acts It

463
00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:14,280
Speaker 1: sounds like probably Henry was maybe he was fighting back,

464
00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:17,359
Speaker 1: I'm not really sure versus Franklin, who it sounds like

465
00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:19,160
Speaker 1: just took one. It was one shot through his heart

466
00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:22,359
Speaker 1: and that was it. These men are close enough to

467
00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:24,760
Speaker 1: be able to see a light coming through the cabin,

468
00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:27,560
Speaker 1: and then I was thinking, how is that possible? Maybe

469
00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:31,760
Speaker 1: these guys are involved, but with saws and everything else

470
00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:35,040
Speaker 1: that they're doing, maybe a gunshot was something that was

471
00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:37,479
Speaker 1: covered up. I don't know, But I don't know if

472
00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:39,840
Speaker 1: he was axed first and then shot or the other

473
00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:42,520
Speaker 1: way around. And I didn't read anything about is it stippling?

474
00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:44,439
Speaker 1: Is that what it would be? Any kind of burns

475
00:25:44,560 --> 00:25:46,520
Speaker 1: or anything like if it was close contact.

476
00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:50,880
Speaker 2: Right, you know, the stippling of the gunpowder from the discharge,

477
00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:54,240
Speaker 2: you know, and that we are talking in the eighteen sixties,

478
00:25:54,600 --> 00:25:58,080
Speaker 2: so probably a black powder weapon. I don't think they

479
00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:02,119
Speaker 2: had the smokeless power, you know, single shot type of

480
00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:07,119
Speaker 2: handgun is what I'm envisioning my perspective in terms of

481
00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:10,720
Speaker 2: asking some of these questions. Am I dealing with everything

482
00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:13,600
Speaker 2: happening to Henry within the cabin or do I have

483
00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:17,720
Speaker 2: an offender shooting Henry and the offender's actually outside the cabin.

484
00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:19,879
Speaker 2: We know the use of the axe on Henry is

485
00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:22,760
Speaker 2: occurring when the two are the offender and the victim

486
00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:26,920
Speaker 2: are close together. Are there any symbols carved into Henry?

487
00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:29,760
Speaker 1: Not that I know of, but the way that they

488
00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:33,159
Speaker 1: are describing those marks, and I can read them to you, again,

489
00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:36,720
Speaker 1: it might have been across and they just misread them.

490
00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:39,280
Speaker 1: They said that they're two wounds on his chest. They

491
00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:43,119
Speaker 1: are four inches long and about three inches apart on

492
00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:45,199
Speaker 1: the left side of his in the left side of

493
00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:49,200
Speaker 1: his chest. But I don't see whether what direction they're

494
00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:51,560
Speaker 1: in or if they could have been across. I think

495
00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:53,760
Speaker 1: if it was a clear cross, it would have shown

496
00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:56,960
Speaker 1: up in the newspaper articles. I don't know, but something

497
00:26:57,040 --> 00:27:01,120
Speaker 1: is and somebody's carving stuff in these these people chests.

498
00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:06,440
Speaker 2: Or these two These sound like possibly two blows from

499
00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:10,040
Speaker 2: maybe the sharp edge of the acts that are four

500
00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:13,360
Speaker 2: inches apart. They're not crossing over like a cross. Yeah,

501
00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:16,440
Speaker 2: you know, And this is this just part of an offender,

502
00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:19,840
Speaker 2: you know, during maybe combat with the victim, or is

503
00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:22,000
Speaker 2: this you know, after the victim has been shot he's

504
00:27:22,080 --> 00:27:24,520
Speaker 2: down and now either it's the same, you know, the

505
00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:26,960
Speaker 2: shooter is the one who's picking up an axe and

506
00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:30,280
Speaker 2: deciding to use an axe for whatever reason. You know.

507
00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:33,560
Speaker 2: But it's interesting, you know that does two weapons being

508
00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:36,840
Speaker 2: used suggest that two offenders were possibly present.

509
00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:39,200
Speaker 1: Let me show you something that I think you'll think

510
00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:42,120
Speaker 1: is interesting. I didn't think I was going to mention this.

511
00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:46,960
Speaker 1: The men who responded to Franklin, the first victim, the

512
00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:50,080
Speaker 1: men said that they thought there was a it was

513
00:27:50,119 --> 00:27:52,679
Speaker 1: a certain kind of gun that had been used. I

514
00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:56,560
Speaker 1: just thought it's a revolver and it doesn't really particularly

515
00:27:56,560 --> 00:27:59,840
Speaker 1: come into play. But now that you're talking about single shot,

516
00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:03,119
Speaker 1: let me show you what they thought it was.

517
00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:06,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, So this see how it says this warning black

518
00:28:06,160 --> 00:28:09,520
Speaker 2: powder firearms cannot be shipped, et cetera, et cetera. So

519
00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:14,320
Speaker 2: this sounds like, you know how modern guns have ammunition

520
00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:18,080
Speaker 2: in which there's a cartridge case that has the gunpowder

521
00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:21,680
Speaker 2: in it and a primer that the firing pin strikes,

522
00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:25,960
Speaker 2: and then of course the round, the bullet is seated

523
00:28:26,119 --> 00:28:28,159
Speaker 2: in this cartridge case. So that's where you have a

524
00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:32,880
Speaker 2: single round of ammunition, and so it's all contained together,

525
00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:38,040
Speaker 2: whereas with black powder rifles, black powder revolvers what you're

526
00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:41,280
Speaker 2: now seeing and I am no expert on this at all,

527
00:28:41,560 --> 00:28:44,920
Speaker 2: but because we didn't deal with black powder guns and

528
00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:48,800
Speaker 2: modern crime, but the little bit of exposure I've had

529
00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:52,440
Speaker 2: with it, what I'm envisioning is is that the shooter

530
00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:57,440
Speaker 2: has to load each chamber in the revolver with the

531
00:28:57,480 --> 00:29:01,480
Speaker 2: black powder, with the round, you know, and kind of

532
00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:06,360
Speaker 2: tamp it down. So it's a very slow process to

533
00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:10,320
Speaker 2: reload a gun like this. But this as opposed to

534
00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:14,920
Speaker 2: a single shot handgun the revolver. Once he's taken the

535
00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:20,000
Speaker 2: time to put this black powder ammunition into the revolver,

536
00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:24,040
Speaker 2: he could shoot however many shots this revolver would hold,

537
00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:27,239
Speaker 2: you know, typically modern revolvers are usually six, but they

538
00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:31,240
Speaker 2: can vary. So once he's loaded it, he's now got

539
00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:34,840
Speaker 2: the capability to be able to shoot multiple times with

540
00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:37,440
Speaker 2: that old black powder revolver.

541
00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:40,960
Speaker 1: When we were talking about single shot, I was reminded

542
00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:43,600
Speaker 1: of a show that I used to watch all the time.

543
00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:48,120
Speaker 1: I'm slightly obsessed with Sleepy Hollow. I worked at a

544
00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:52,120
Speaker 1: university in Sleepy Hollow in New York, in North Terrytown,

545
00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:53,800
Speaker 1: and I would take the train up there and everything,

546
00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:56,480
Speaker 1: and it was part of Fordham University and I taught there,

547
00:29:57,080 --> 00:30:01,040
Speaker 1: and so I'm a huge Washington Irving fan. And this

548
00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:04,840
Speaker 1: TV show came out about Pikabod Crane, you know, the

549
00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:08,560
Speaker 1: star of Sleepy Hollow, and he is sort of comes

550
00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:11,680
Speaker 1: back to life, and he's very handsome and he's interacting

551
00:30:11,760 --> 00:30:15,040
Speaker 1: with the modern police and it's very confusing. He has

552
00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:17,600
Speaker 1: kind of a woman who is working with him trying

553
00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:20,600
Speaker 1: to solve cases, but he feels like it's the seventeen hundreds,

554
00:30:20,800 --> 00:30:22,840
Speaker 1: and so there's a scene when they're sort of fighting

555
00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:26,920
Speaker 1: the headless horseman and she runs ahead and she says,

556
00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:29,440
Speaker 1: unload your gun, and he goes okay, and there's one

557
00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:32,520
Speaker 1: shot and she said, I thought you unloaded your gun,

558
00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:36,520
Speaker 1: and she said I did. So I always think about that,

559
00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:38,880
Speaker 1: you know, when when I do think about, like how

560
00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:41,320
Speaker 1: many bullets do we have to work with here? So anyway,

561
00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:44,800
Speaker 1: that was the longest side to say that. I still

562
00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:47,840
Speaker 1: wonder why they thought it was the specific one Colt

563
00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:51,440
Speaker 1: Navy revolver. But I mean, maybe it was a bullet

564
00:30:51,520 --> 00:30:53,360
Speaker 1: or something. I don't know. But the people who responded

565
00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:55,520
Speaker 1: to Franklin's body said, this is what it looks like

566
00:30:55,560 --> 00:30:55,880
Speaker 1: to us.

567
00:30:56,640 --> 00:31:00,440
Speaker 2: Okay, so you're saying that in Franklin's case, they think

568
00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:03,640
Speaker 2: it was this forty four black powder revolver.

569
00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:07,760
Speaker 1: They just called it the cult Navy revolver. And that's

570
00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:10,600
Speaker 1: what I looked up. And then all of these popped up,

571
00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:12,960
Speaker 1: and they look exactly the same if.

572
00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:15,640
Speaker 2: It was a handgun like this, and these handguns were

573
00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:20,000
Speaker 2: not tremendously accurate. In fact, I think this is possibly

574
00:31:20,880 --> 00:31:23,840
Speaker 2: it's not a rifled barrel, you know, the rifling in

575
00:31:23,880 --> 00:31:26,720
Speaker 2: the barrel puts a twist on the projectile that gives

576
00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:30,880
Speaker 2: its stability. I'm guessing this is not a rifled barrel

577
00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:34,040
Speaker 2: based on this era, and again I am no expert.

578
00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:37,440
Speaker 2: But now, in essence, you've got a round coming out

579
00:31:37,480 --> 00:31:41,600
Speaker 2: of this very inaccurate weapon and striking Franklin in the heart.

580
00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:47,000
Speaker 2: So I'm surmising that the shooter was reasonably close to

581
00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:50,800
Speaker 2: Franklin versus Franklin is driving the horses and he's on

582
00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:54,200
Speaker 2: the stagecoach and he gets sniped from a distance from

583
00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:57,840
Speaker 2: a rifle. So it almost sounds like Franklin and the

584
00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:03,640
Speaker 2: shooter probably were in relatively close proximity before Franklin was shot.

585
00:32:03,760 --> 00:32:06,360
Speaker 2: That's my guess based off of this type of weapon.

586
00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:10,120
Speaker 1: And I wondered about the damage that was done to

587
00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:12,880
Speaker 1: his forehead gashes. I mean, this sounds like a total

588
00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:16,080
Speaker 1: mess of a scene. So right, Pablo, they still would

589
00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:18,920
Speaker 1: have seen the black on him on his forehead, but

590
00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:20,760
Speaker 1: still it's such a mess, you.

591
00:32:20,680 --> 00:32:23,840
Speaker 2: Know, Yes, so with Henry, if he's being hit with

592
00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:27,120
Speaker 2: the blunt end of an axe, you know, this is

593
00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:30,600
Speaker 2: a very devastating weapon. It's in essence, you know, that's

594
00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:34,040
Speaker 2: like being hit in the head with a sledgehammer, and

595
00:32:34,120 --> 00:32:37,560
Speaker 2: so the skull is going to be compromised. And yes,

596
00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:40,280
Speaker 2: you know you talked about the description of blood and

597
00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:44,960
Speaker 2: brain matter being present outside of his skull. Absolutely, Now

598
00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:48,080
Speaker 2: that could also be a result of the gunshot. So

599
00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:50,200
Speaker 2: it just depends on what they're seeing and what the

600
00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:52,680
Speaker 2: sequence of Henry's injuries were.

601
00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:57,920
Speaker 1: Okay, well let's move forward. So now we're talking about tracking,

602
00:32:58,120 --> 00:33:01,600
Speaker 1: and I know very little about but what happens is

603
00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:03,760
Speaker 1: there's US sheriff. So I always like to figure out

604
00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:06,240
Speaker 1: who law enforcement is. What are we calling them? The

605
00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:11,480
Speaker 1: local sheriff and the deputy are tracking Henry's attackers. It

606
00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:15,040
Speaker 1: sounds like using the horse tracks and they follow this trail.

607
00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:19,040
Speaker 1: This doesn't even seem possible, Paul, from Colorado City to

608
00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:23,280
Speaker 1: the Ute Pass, which is about ninety miles to the north,

609
00:33:23,720 --> 00:33:27,280
Speaker 1: and then Canyon City, where the first murder took place,

610
00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:31,960
Speaker 1: is kind of is in between these points. So ninety miles.

611
00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:34,360
Speaker 1: How do you how would they I know you probably

612
00:33:34,360 --> 00:33:35,960
Speaker 1: don't know this, but how do you how would you

613
00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:39,640
Speaker 1: even differentiate which horse prints or which horse hoofs we're

614
00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:40,320
Speaker 1: going with here?

615
00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:42,280
Speaker 2: I don't I'm not a tracker.

616
00:33:42,560 --> 00:33:44,560
Speaker 1: So now we have to call another expert. So we

617
00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:47,320
Speaker 1: need something, yes, okay for listeners and watches, we need

618
00:33:47,360 --> 00:33:49,360
Speaker 1: a gun expert, and we need a tracker.

619
00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:54,120
Speaker 2: Well, but I think, you know, I've followed, you know,

620
00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:58,680
Speaker 2: shoe impressions, you know, which the let's say an offender

621
00:33:58,760 --> 00:34:02,000
Speaker 2: running away from a scene and he steps in a

622
00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:04,640
Speaker 2: garden bed, and so now I shoe impressions, and then

623
00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:07,800
Speaker 2: he's running over grass, and then you see him cross

624
00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:10,200
Speaker 2: over an area where there's dirt and you see the

625
00:34:10,280 --> 00:34:12,960
Speaker 2: same tread pattern. You know, So I've done that type

626
00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:17,440
Speaker 2: of thing. That's just typical CSI style, you know tracking,

627
00:34:17,520 --> 00:34:22,239
Speaker 2: if you will, to track this distance with something that

628
00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:27,840
Speaker 2: is so nondescript as horse shoes, it almost tells me

629
00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:31,280
Speaker 2: that whatever path that they're following is not a well

630
00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:35,799
Speaker 2: traveled path, and they're probably taking a look at the

631
00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:39,640
Speaker 2: what they're interpreting as being the fresh impressions that they

632
00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:43,399
Speaker 2: can see, and then so they're connecting the dots because

633
00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:47,520
Speaker 2: I can guarantee over ninety miles, there's probably long lengths

634
00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:50,080
Speaker 2: of this trail in which they don't have anything that

635
00:34:50,120 --> 00:34:52,239
Speaker 2: they can see, and they just kind of keep on

636
00:34:52,320 --> 00:34:55,840
Speaker 2: the same direction that the previous you know, track showed

637
00:34:55,880 --> 00:34:57,680
Speaker 2: and all of a sudden they're picking up the track again.

638
00:34:58,200 --> 00:35:00,799
Speaker 2: You know. So that's my guess. It's just that how

639
00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:03,600
Speaker 2: accurate is it? Could they have been misled?

640
00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:09,080
Speaker 1: Well, let's continue on. Now we are about thirteen days

641
00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:14,800
Speaker 1: after Franklin, twelve days after Henry. This is March thirty first,

642
00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:18,879
Speaker 1: and now we're in an area called Wilkerson Pass. This

643
00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:22,960
Speaker 1: is between Colorado City and another gold camp which is

644
00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:25,759
Speaker 1: about fifty miles away. And this is a man working

645
00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:28,359
Speaker 1: at a way station. This is a rest stop, kind

646
00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:30,320
Speaker 1: of like a truck or rest stop in a way Okay,

647
00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:33,839
Speaker 1: so people stop for rest and they get supplies. There

648
00:35:33,960 --> 00:35:37,640
Speaker 1: is a guy named John Adelman who runs away station.

649
00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:40,240
Speaker 1: And this is again these places are in the middle

650
00:35:40,239 --> 00:35:43,959
Speaker 1: of nowhere, literally in the middle of nowhere in Wilkerson Pass.

651
00:35:43,960 --> 00:35:47,840
Speaker 1: And there's a mail carrier who stops at this way station.

652
00:35:48,520 --> 00:35:54,600
Speaker 1: When he arrives to Adelman's way station, the mail carrier

653
00:35:54,719 --> 00:35:58,080
Speaker 1: finds the house to be disordered, is what he says.

654
00:35:58,200 --> 00:36:01,360
Speaker 1: Quickly he rides away. It looks like it's been trashed.

655
00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:04,640
Speaker 1: He doesn't find anything. He just sees that maybe they've

656
00:36:04,680 --> 00:36:07,600
Speaker 1: been robbed. He finds the sheriff in the deputy who

657
00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:11,440
Speaker 1: have been tracking Henry and Franklin's attackers. They're connecting these

658
00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:15,120
Speaker 1: because it doesn't sound like these kind of attacks are common.

659
00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:19,799
Speaker 1: And it's at two sawmills, Franklin sawmill and Henry with

660
00:36:19,880 --> 00:36:23,400
Speaker 1: the cabin. So you've got the sheriff in the deputy

661
00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:26,799
Speaker 1: covering god knows how many miles, at least ninety. And

662
00:36:27,040 --> 00:36:29,480
Speaker 1: this mail carrier, gosh, what a hard job. That must

663
00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:33,120
Speaker 1: have been a cold territory being a mail carrier. This

664
00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:37,759
Speaker 1: mail carrier tracks them down and he says, this way

665
00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:40,840
Speaker 1: station is normally very orderly. I don't know where John is.

666
00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:44,439
Speaker 1: It's been trashed. Can you come and help. They get

667
00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:46,920
Speaker 1: to Adalmans and they find his body on the property,

668
00:36:47,200 --> 00:36:50,480
Speaker 1: not inside the way station. So some reports say that

669
00:36:50,520 --> 00:36:52,880
Speaker 1: he had been shot through the head. Others say that

670
00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:56,719
Speaker 1: he was shot twice through the heart. And we don't

671
00:36:56,760 --> 00:36:59,040
Speaker 1: know about the type of gun, and we don't have

672
00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:04,279
Speaker 1: a clear connection to the other two men. So to summarize,

673
00:37:04,440 --> 00:37:08,279
Speaker 1: we've got three victims, all men connected to you know,

674
00:37:08,320 --> 00:37:12,520
Speaker 1: this part of the territory, not tremendously far apart, and

675
00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:15,480
Speaker 1: two victims know each other mostly just in passing. That

676
00:37:15,560 --> 00:37:18,000
Speaker 1: kind of came in at the same time. It looks

677
00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:20,400
Speaker 1: like there's been a robbery in this one too, So

678
00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:24,879
Speaker 1: these are happening close. I mean, this is the eighteenth

679
00:37:24,960 --> 00:37:27,520
Speaker 1: of March, the nineteenth of March, and then the thirty

680
00:37:27,560 --> 00:37:30,880
Speaker 1: first of March. And before you ask, I do not

681
00:37:31,160 --> 00:37:35,080
Speaker 1: see that he has been hit with an axe, John,

682
00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:38,680
Speaker 1: and I do not see that there has been anything

683
00:37:38,680 --> 00:37:40,160
Speaker 1: carved in his chest.

684
00:37:40,400 --> 00:37:43,120
Speaker 2: You know, even though you know Franklin and Henry had

685
00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:50,000
Speaker 2: some sort of connection to each other, whereas Adalman, there's

686
00:37:50,080 --> 00:37:53,480
Speaker 2: no known connection to the two previous victims. So I'm

687
00:37:53,520 --> 00:37:56,239
Speaker 2: wondering at this point of the you know, Henry and

688
00:37:56,280 --> 00:37:59,520
Speaker 2: Franklin becoming victims even though they knew each other, that

689
00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:03,480
Speaker 2: that really relationship was just coincidental. They're not being targeted

690
00:38:03,520 --> 00:38:08,440
Speaker 2: because they knew each other, So if I'm right about that,

691
00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:13,719
Speaker 2: So now you have with Henry and John Adelman, you

692
00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:17,839
Speaker 2: now have this what sounds like the tossing of the

693
00:38:17,840 --> 00:38:21,319
Speaker 2: inside of the places where you know they had control over.

694
00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:25,440
Speaker 2: Henry's killed inside this cabin, whereas Adelman's body is outside,

695
00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:28,080
Speaker 2: but the offender took the time to go inside and

696
00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:30,799
Speaker 2: toss the place. Part of the assessment is as, why

697
00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:33,719
Speaker 2: are they looking for something? You know, what are they

698
00:38:33,719 --> 00:38:35,840
Speaker 2: looking for? Are they looking for something that has you know,

699
00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:39,920
Speaker 2: monetary value? Are they looking for land deeds? You know?

700
00:38:40,239 --> 00:38:44,160
Speaker 2: So that's if I'm assessing this crime scene, I want

701
00:38:44,200 --> 00:38:48,320
Speaker 2: to know, Okay, is there something about the locations within

702
00:38:48,440 --> 00:38:53,319
Speaker 2: these structures that the offender seems to be focused in

703
00:38:53,480 --> 00:38:56,680
Speaker 2: on and what would normally be kept at these locations?

704
00:38:56,760 --> 00:39:00,640
Speaker 2: Is there overlap between these two crime scenes? J indicates

705
00:39:00,640 --> 00:39:05,120
Speaker 2: these offenders are going around looking for something specific or

706
00:39:05,320 --> 00:39:07,759
Speaker 2: they just I mean sometimes you know, I've processed many

707
00:39:07,760 --> 00:39:10,759
Speaker 2: burglaries early on in my career, and you just have

708
00:39:11,239 --> 00:39:12,960
Speaker 2: you know, some of these guys are very focused on

709
00:39:12,960 --> 00:39:16,400
Speaker 2: what they're going after and targets certain areas within a house.

710
00:39:16,840 --> 00:39:20,560
Speaker 2: Other guys will just start throwing things everywhere, just hoping

711
00:39:20,600 --> 00:39:22,960
Speaker 2: to run across something, you know. So that's what I'm

712
00:39:23,000 --> 00:39:27,680
Speaker 2: trying to discern here. Am I dealing with just you know,

713
00:39:27,800 --> 00:39:30,839
Speaker 2: somebody who's looking for something random, not knowing what's in

714
00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:35,200
Speaker 2: the structure or is this a targeted type of ransacking

715
00:39:35,320 --> 00:39:37,160
Speaker 2: within these structures? Yeah?

716
00:39:37,280 --> 00:39:41,160
Speaker 1: And I don't have an impression that this was anything

717
00:39:41,239 --> 00:39:44,280
Speaker 1: but just tossing and trying to grab anything of value.

718
00:39:44,920 --> 00:39:48,880
Speaker 1: I do know that this part of Colorado, the Colorado territory,

719
00:39:49,080 --> 00:39:53,640
Speaker 1: is remote, all of it, but there are sembilances of cities, right.

720
00:39:53,680 --> 00:39:55,880
Speaker 1: I mean, we talked about the plazas where all of

721
00:39:55,880 --> 00:39:58,920
Speaker 1: these Adobe houses are set up and everything, But where

722
00:39:59,360 --> 00:40:04,040
Speaker 1: the killer is hitting are these remote spots and spots

723
00:40:04,080 --> 00:40:07,319
Speaker 1: that are not particularly well traveled. I mean, I know

724
00:40:07,360 --> 00:40:10,480
Speaker 1: this is a way station, but John might not have

725
00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:12,880
Speaker 1: seen people for days and days and days, depending on

726
00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:16,399
Speaker 1: how many people are going through this area. So you've

727
00:40:16,440 --> 00:40:19,279
Speaker 1: got Franklin who is by himself. You've got John at

728
00:40:19,280 --> 00:40:21,880
Speaker 1: the way station, who is by himself. But then you

729
00:40:21,920 --> 00:40:25,600
Speaker 1: have Henry, who has two or three people not far

730
00:40:25,640 --> 00:40:30,239
Speaker 1: from him at all there. And so I wonder what

731
00:40:30,280 --> 00:40:33,440
Speaker 1: the motive is. If it's just simply killing people, that

732
00:40:33,480 --> 00:40:36,240
Speaker 1: just seems risky to me, because these are the people

733
00:40:36,280 --> 00:40:39,759
Speaker 1: at the middle murder, Henry's murder. These were all relatively

734
00:40:39,840 --> 00:40:43,560
Speaker 1: young men who could have overpowered whomever ends up being

735
00:40:43,600 --> 00:40:44,359
Speaker 1: the one who did this.

736
00:40:45,040 --> 00:40:49,279
Speaker 2: You saying that there's no information to indicate that the

737
00:40:49,880 --> 00:40:55,040
Speaker 2: ransacking that's being done has any targeted item that the

738
00:40:55,040 --> 00:40:58,640
Speaker 2: offender is looking for, And so if the offender is

739
00:40:58,920 --> 00:41:02,759
Speaker 2: just going into these struck and is taking whatever he

740
00:41:03,160 --> 00:41:06,400
Speaker 2: or they run across for financial value. You know, that

741
00:41:06,520 --> 00:41:10,120
Speaker 2: suggests to me that this is possibly somebody that does

742
00:41:10,200 --> 00:41:15,160
Speaker 2: not have let's say, a lot of monetary means, you know,

743
00:41:15,239 --> 00:41:19,120
Speaker 2: and is having to subsist off of whatever he finds

744
00:41:19,400 --> 00:41:24,040
Speaker 2: during the ransacking the homicides. You know, I think right

745
00:41:24,080 --> 00:41:26,279
Speaker 2: now it's kind of hard to say. You know, the

746
00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:29,640
Speaker 2: cross being put into Franklin, you know, if that was

747
00:41:29,680 --> 00:41:33,920
Speaker 2: to send a message to others, then that would seem

748
00:41:33,960 --> 00:41:36,759
Speaker 2: to think that there's a mission that this offender is on.

749
00:41:37,520 --> 00:41:40,319
Speaker 2: But if, like your thought, if this was just the

750
00:41:40,360 --> 00:41:44,399
Speaker 2: offender for religious purposes, you know, carving the cross into

751
00:41:44,480 --> 00:41:48,200
Speaker 2: to Franklin's body, you know, then now in essence, you

752
00:41:48,320 --> 00:41:52,680
Speaker 2: may be dealing with somebody who is just marauding around

753
00:41:52,719 --> 00:41:56,320
Speaker 2: the countryside, you know, trying to find things of monetary

754
00:41:56,400 --> 00:42:00,239
Speaker 2: value to be able to continue to subsist as willing

755
00:42:00,320 --> 00:42:03,600
Speaker 2: to kill. Right now, I can't say that there's anything

756
00:42:03,640 --> 00:42:08,080
Speaker 2: that suggests there's like a predatory aspect, but it could be.

757
00:42:08,200 --> 00:42:10,880
Speaker 2: You know that that's where if if we have more victims,

758
00:42:10,880 --> 00:42:14,920
Speaker 2: and maybe it becomes more apparent that you are dealing

759
00:42:14,960 --> 00:42:18,399
Speaker 2: with a fender that is purposely going out to trying

760
00:42:18,440 --> 00:42:20,600
Speaker 2: to find victims because he wants to kill. He gets

761
00:42:20,640 --> 00:42:24,279
Speaker 2: some sort of satisfaction. It may be, you know, retaliation

762
00:42:24,440 --> 00:42:28,239
Speaker 2: against raw perceived wrongs that these people do. You know,

763
00:42:28,320 --> 00:42:31,480
Speaker 2: and if you have somebody that's been displaced because of

764
00:42:31,520 --> 00:42:34,399
Speaker 2: the white settlers, now you can see where there could

765
00:42:34,440 --> 00:42:38,520
Speaker 2: be what I would consider an anger retaliation type of offender,

766
00:42:38,560 --> 00:42:42,040
Speaker 2: where he's now angry based on his lifestyle being impacted.

767
00:42:42,320 --> 00:42:44,880
Speaker 2: And even though these aren't the people that who necessarily

768
00:42:45,080 --> 00:42:49,000
Speaker 2: displaced him from a in person type of aspect, they're

769
00:42:49,080 --> 00:42:52,959
Speaker 2: representative of somebody of a group, you know, the white

770
00:42:53,000 --> 00:42:57,319
Speaker 2: settlers that are impacting his life. And now he's you know,

771
00:42:57,360 --> 00:43:00,960
Speaker 2: he's taken it out on these to white settlers.

772
00:43:01,320 --> 00:43:05,920
Speaker 1: Okay, well, unfortunately we do have more victims to talk about.

773
00:43:06,200 --> 00:43:07,680
Speaker 2: I had a feeling it was going that way.

774
00:43:07,920 --> 00:43:11,440
Speaker 1: Yeah. The sheriff and the deputy who find John's body

775
00:43:11,600 --> 00:43:15,520
Speaker 1: ride back down south to Canyon City to report this

776
00:43:15,760 --> 00:43:18,640
Speaker 1: additional murder. So now they're up to three. But it

777
00:43:18,800 --> 00:43:23,640
Speaker 1: looks like the killer or killers went north because there

778
00:43:23,680 --> 00:43:27,960
Speaker 1: are more bodies, so this is near fair play. We

779
00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:30,719
Speaker 1: were twenty five miles from Colorado City. So this is

780
00:43:30,760 --> 00:43:33,120
Speaker 1: far north. This is a lot. I mean, we're not

781
00:43:33,120 --> 00:43:36,759
Speaker 1: talking about geographic profiling at this point. They're going at

782
00:43:36,920 --> 00:43:41,760
Speaker 1: least ninety miles, maybe hundreds of miles on horseback likely.

783
00:43:42,400 --> 00:43:44,560
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, just you know, taking a car to go

784
00:43:44,640 --> 00:43:49,480
Speaker 2: from Colorado Springs up to Breckenridge along roughly this route,

785
00:43:49,880 --> 00:43:53,120
Speaker 2: probably where fair Play is located at, that's going to

786
00:43:53,120 --> 00:43:56,320
Speaker 2: be about a two hour drive, you know, and it's

787
00:43:56,640 --> 00:44:00,120
Speaker 2: i mean it's freeway speeds, but it's you know, these

788
00:44:00,120 --> 00:44:04,600
Speaker 2: are windy roads and stuff through the you know, sometimes

789
00:44:04,440 --> 00:44:09,480
Speaker 2: it's mountainous, sometimes it's open plains. So on horseback, you know,

790
00:44:10,000 --> 00:44:12,719
Speaker 2: this is a pretty significant distance to go, let's say,

791
00:44:12,920 --> 00:44:16,360
Speaker 2: from the Canyon City area all the way up to

792
00:44:16,400 --> 00:44:16,960
Speaker 2: fair Play.

793
00:44:17,360 --> 00:44:20,440
Speaker 1: What does that tell you about the offender or offenders

794
00:44:21,239 --> 00:44:24,440
Speaker 1: they're obviously comfortable on horseback and going long distances.

795
00:44:25,000 --> 00:44:27,880
Speaker 2: Well, I would say, you know, like like my experience,

796
00:44:27,920 --> 00:44:32,560
Speaker 2: of course, is dealing with offenders that are utilizing modern

797
00:44:32,560 --> 00:44:36,400
Speaker 2: transportation to move around. And you know, some of this

798
00:44:36,640 --> 00:44:43,200
Speaker 2: is due to the offenders' work, let's say truckers. Other times, offenders,

799
00:44:43,440 --> 00:44:47,600
Speaker 2: possibly Golden State killer DiAngelo, purposely moved around just to

800
00:44:48,280 --> 00:44:51,760
Speaker 2: commit crimes. And try to prevent law enforcement from linking

801
00:44:51,960 --> 00:44:56,880
Speaker 2: crimes together. So you know, there may be an aspect

802
00:44:57,120 --> 00:44:59,960
Speaker 2: to either one of those scenarios with this offender who

803
00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:03,560
Speaker 2: who's purposely traveling around. Maybe it's work related, maybe it

804
00:45:03,640 --> 00:45:07,440
Speaker 2: is purposely just trying to move around and kind of

805
00:45:07,480 --> 00:45:09,920
Speaker 2: stay hidden from sight, if you will, by moving to

806
00:45:10,160 --> 00:45:14,359
Speaker 2: such you know, disparate locations to commit crimes. Right now,

807
00:45:14,400 --> 00:45:18,080
Speaker 2: I'll just say it seems like there's no question that

808
00:45:18,120 --> 00:45:22,000
Speaker 2: the offender is comfortable moving around, as you mentioned, it's

809
00:45:22,040 --> 00:45:24,200
Speaker 2: just why is he moving around? And right now there's

810
00:45:24,280 --> 00:45:27,080
Speaker 2: there's not enough information to try to discern that. And

811
00:45:27,160 --> 00:45:30,879
Speaker 2: from a geographic profile standpoint, I think what I would

812
00:45:30,960 --> 00:45:35,279
Speaker 2: be looking at is these paths that the offender is

813
00:45:35,320 --> 00:45:37,920
Speaker 2: having to take to go from one location to another.

814
00:45:38,560 --> 00:45:43,080
Speaker 2: Are they what we would consider primary arterial you know, roads,

815
00:45:43,120 --> 00:45:46,040
Speaker 2: if you will. And is the offender just following a

816
00:45:46,160 --> 00:45:50,000
Speaker 2: known path and is offending along a certain route as

817
00:45:50,040 --> 00:45:54,680
Speaker 2: he's proceeding north or is are there anchor points for

818
00:45:54,719 --> 00:45:57,520
Speaker 2: the offender? Does he have a connection to these locations

819
00:45:57,719 --> 00:46:00,759
Speaker 2: maybe for work, maybe because he's lived there, or he's

820
00:46:00,760 --> 00:46:05,520
Speaker 2: got family there, and while he's visiting that particular location,

821
00:46:05,840 --> 00:46:08,279
Speaker 2: he's deciding to go out and offend because he needs

822
00:46:08,320 --> 00:46:08,880
Speaker 2: more money.

823
00:46:09,200 --> 00:46:12,880
Speaker 1: Well, let's find out. We are now on the road

824
00:46:13,080 --> 00:46:17,040
Speaker 1: to Denver. We are well, as I said, fair Play, Colorado,

825
00:46:17,120 --> 00:46:19,480
Speaker 1: about fifty miles north of where all this other stuff

826
00:46:19,480 --> 00:46:24,760
Speaker 1: had been happening. And this is a campground. So people

827
00:46:24,880 --> 00:46:28,799
Speaker 1: find two bodies, both men. One is a twenty three

828
00:46:28,840 --> 00:46:33,200
Speaker 1: year old named Jacob Binkley. The other is a twenty

829
00:46:33,280 --> 00:46:38,720
Speaker 1: nine year old named Abram Shoop. Shoop becomes important because

830
00:46:38,719 --> 00:46:42,800
Speaker 1: his brother is a prominent lieutenant and he will ultimately

831
00:46:42,840 --> 00:46:44,879
Speaker 1: go on to be the first governor of the state

832
00:46:44,920 --> 00:46:49,120
Speaker 1: of Idaho and one of its first senators. And so

833
00:46:49,680 --> 00:46:52,879
Speaker 1: this happened with the Bloody Benders, which we've never talked

834
00:46:52,920 --> 00:46:55,000
Speaker 1: about that story. I've interviewed a lot of people about,

835
00:46:55,239 --> 00:46:58,080
Speaker 1: you know, which was a family I think in Kansas

836
00:46:58,080 --> 00:46:59,799
Speaker 1: who murdered a lot of people as they would come

837
00:46:59,840 --> 00:47:02,080
Speaker 1: by and try to stay at their inn. They were

838
00:47:02,080 --> 00:47:04,759
Speaker 1: getting away with it until there is a person who

839
00:47:04,800 --> 00:47:07,760
Speaker 1: they murder who is related to a very prominent person,

840
00:47:07,920 --> 00:47:10,960
Speaker 1: and that all hell breaks loose when that happens. So

841
00:47:11,200 --> 00:47:14,759
Speaker 1: you've got these two men. So you've got Jacob and Abram.

842
00:47:15,040 --> 00:47:17,719
Speaker 1: The bodies are found by an innkeeper who saw their

843
00:47:17,719 --> 00:47:23,680
Speaker 1: oxen grazing unaccompanied and recognize them because the men had

844
00:47:23,719 --> 00:47:27,279
Speaker 1: stayed with him the previous trips and so you know,

845
00:47:27,280 --> 00:47:30,160
Speaker 1: they had been regulars at this inn. The weather had

846
00:47:30,200 --> 00:47:33,080
Speaker 1: been nice the previous night, so it looks like instead

847
00:47:33,120 --> 00:47:35,160
Speaker 1: of staying at the end, these guys decided to go

848
00:47:35,200 --> 00:47:39,560
Speaker 1: ahead and camp, and they are both found at their campground,

849
00:47:39,600 --> 00:47:42,360
Speaker 1: which is right by a river. Jacob had been shot

850
00:47:42,440 --> 00:47:46,719
Speaker 1: once through the back, with the bullet becoming lodged at

851
00:47:46,760 --> 00:47:50,480
Speaker 1: the front of the chest and is found lying face

852
00:47:50,600 --> 00:47:54,239
Speaker 1: down on the river bank right at that campsite. They

853
00:47:54,239 --> 00:47:56,879
Speaker 1: don't know what kind of gun is used. Doesn't sound

854
00:47:56,960 --> 00:48:00,120
Speaker 1: like a shotgun? Does that sound like a revolver? Or

855
00:48:00,160 --> 00:48:01,880
Speaker 1: I mean, I guess we don't get a rifle, do that?

856
00:48:02,239 --> 00:48:05,000
Speaker 2: I guess right now, there's no information to indicate what

857
00:48:06,000 --> 00:48:10,720
Speaker 2: type of weapon was used. Now, the bullet, the projectile,

858
00:48:11,120 --> 00:48:14,920
Speaker 2: you know, penetrated through the victim's body from the back

859
00:48:15,360 --> 00:48:19,480
Speaker 2: and lodged at the chest. Now, there is a phenomenon

860
00:48:19,520 --> 00:48:22,040
Speaker 2: that happens where you can have a bullet, you know,

861
00:48:22,040 --> 00:48:25,600
Speaker 2: because as bullets pass through bodies, they lose energy and

862
00:48:25,760 --> 00:48:28,479
Speaker 2: sometimes you can have something as simple as a T shirt.

863
00:48:28,560 --> 00:48:31,720
Speaker 2: When the bullet comes out and exits out of the body,

864
00:48:31,920 --> 00:48:34,200
Speaker 2: the fabric of the T shirt is strong enough to

865
00:48:34,320 --> 00:48:36,880
Speaker 2: just kind of contain the bullet and keep the bullet

866
00:48:36,960 --> 00:48:38,880
Speaker 2: sort of at the exit wound. And this is what

867
00:48:38,920 --> 00:48:42,360
Speaker 2: we called a shored exit. Now, with him being faced

868
00:48:42,400 --> 00:48:44,640
Speaker 2: down on the river bank, you know, one of the

869
00:48:45,000 --> 00:48:47,120
Speaker 2: questions that I have is was he shot upright and

870
00:48:47,200 --> 00:48:50,600
Speaker 2: he collapsed or did the offender, after this guy is

871
00:48:50,640 --> 00:48:53,319
Speaker 2: made to late lay prone, you came up and shot

872
00:48:53,480 --> 00:48:55,360
Speaker 2: in the back and now you got the ground in

873
00:48:55,480 --> 00:48:58,520
Speaker 2: essen's preventing the bullet from exiting out the chest. And

874
00:48:58,560 --> 00:49:01,480
Speaker 2: it's also possible that the bullet just lost enough energy

875
00:49:01,520 --> 00:49:04,240
Speaker 2: as it passed through the upper torso of this victim

876
00:49:04,680 --> 00:49:07,040
Speaker 2: and never even had the energy to be able to

877
00:49:07,080 --> 00:49:09,200
Speaker 2: exit out in the first place. And that would tend

878
00:49:09,239 --> 00:49:12,839
Speaker 2: to suggest that that's a less powerful weapon. So it

879
00:49:12,880 --> 00:49:15,520
Speaker 2: all depends right now, I can't draw any conclusions as

880
00:49:15,560 --> 00:49:16,839
Speaker 2: to what kind of weapon was used.

881
00:49:17,719 --> 00:49:20,759
Speaker 1: My guess would be that he was standing up and

882
00:49:20,960 --> 00:49:23,839
Speaker 1: the only reason why is the way that the other

883
00:49:23,960 --> 00:49:28,319
Speaker 1: murder plays out, which is Abram Shoop. He's found at

884
00:49:28,360 --> 00:49:31,760
Speaker 1: the bottom of a gulch about four hundred yards away.

885
00:49:31,840 --> 00:49:35,480
Speaker 1: He had been stabbed three times in the chest and

886
00:49:35,560 --> 00:49:39,279
Speaker 1: his head had been mutilated. I don't know the specifics,

887
00:49:39,719 --> 00:49:42,200
Speaker 1: not with the cross I'm pretty sure carved into it,

888
00:49:42,239 --> 00:49:45,359
Speaker 1: but it had been mutilated. It appears that he ran

889
00:49:46,200 --> 00:49:49,839
Speaker 1: before collapsing at the bottom of the gulch, and they

890
00:49:49,840 --> 00:49:53,040
Speaker 1: had both been robbed. So I don't know if this

891
00:49:53,239 --> 00:49:55,680
Speaker 1: was a everybody lay down and then they're shot, but

892
00:49:55,840 --> 00:49:58,400
Speaker 1: Abram's the first one to not be shot. I think

893
00:49:58,480 --> 00:50:01,080
Speaker 1: he was stabbed. What does this sound like and all,

894
00:50:01,120 --> 00:50:03,640
Speaker 1: and definitely think about the number of offenders at this point.

895
00:50:03,800 --> 00:50:05,719
Speaker 1: What does this all sound like to you so far?

896
00:50:06,280 --> 00:50:11,680
Speaker 2: Well, obviously, with Abram being stabbed three times in the chest,

897
00:50:11,880 --> 00:50:15,320
Speaker 2: you know, it's indicating that the offender is very close.

898
00:50:15,360 --> 00:50:18,879
Speaker 2: I mean, you are dealing with face to face interactions

899
00:50:18,920 --> 00:50:22,760
Speaker 2: between the offender and Abram. The fact that he's able

900
00:50:22,800 --> 00:50:26,759
Speaker 2: to run before collapsing, which is something that you see

901
00:50:26,760 --> 00:50:30,560
Speaker 2: with stabbings. You know, even if it's a fatal stab

902
00:50:30,600 --> 00:50:33,360
Speaker 2: wound that's inflicted, it takes time for the you know,

903
00:50:33,440 --> 00:50:37,920
Speaker 2: the the bleeding to cause the person to in essence

904
00:50:38,000 --> 00:50:41,719
Speaker 2: lose consciousness, right, And so sometimes you do see stabbing victims.

905
00:50:42,160 --> 00:50:44,360
Speaker 2: They receive fatal stab wounds, but then they're able to

906
00:50:44,440 --> 00:50:47,640
Speaker 2: run a distance and then they collapse a distance further

907
00:50:47,760 --> 00:50:52,840
Speaker 2: down that the head being mutilated. I'm just kind of wondering,

908
00:50:53,440 --> 00:50:55,400
Speaker 2: you know, And this is where sequencing would come in.

909
00:50:55,520 --> 00:51:00,239
Speaker 2: It's just is this just possibly in some ways the

910
00:51:01,239 --> 00:51:05,680
Speaker 2: offender is trying to stab the victim, and now you

911
00:51:05,760 --> 00:51:09,759
Speaker 2: have incisive injuries and stab wounds to Abram's head as

912
00:51:09,760 --> 00:51:13,000
Speaker 2: he's warding off the knife attack. And then of course

913
00:51:13,000 --> 00:51:15,439
Speaker 2: there's some stabs to the chest and Abram is able

914
00:51:15,480 --> 00:51:19,920
Speaker 2: to get away before he collapses. So I'm not you know,

915
00:51:19,960 --> 00:51:22,200
Speaker 2: I don't know what to make about the head mutilation.

916
00:51:22,320 --> 00:51:24,800
Speaker 2: If it's if the offender is purposely coming up and

917
00:51:25,160 --> 00:51:28,239
Speaker 2: trying to do something like that, then that sounds like

918
00:51:28,280 --> 00:51:31,560
Speaker 2: there's a personal aspect to that, you know, between the

919
00:51:31,560 --> 00:51:35,080
Speaker 2: offender and Abram. Again, you have the use of two

920
00:51:35,080 --> 00:51:41,680
Speaker 2: different weapons. You have Jacob being shot and Abram being stabbed,

921
00:51:41,920 --> 00:51:44,680
Speaker 2: and they were both robbed. How do you control two

922
00:51:44,760 --> 00:51:48,080
Speaker 2: men with the gun? Absolutely, you know, give me, give

923
00:51:48,080 --> 00:51:52,680
Speaker 2: me your money. And then you get into basically close

924
00:51:52,760 --> 00:51:57,400
Speaker 2: quarters with Abram with a knife, and now you have Jacob,

925
00:51:57,680 --> 00:51:59,640
Speaker 2: you know, running away, and you're able, you know, once

926
00:51:59,680 --> 00:52:03,680
Speaker 2: you've you know, stabbed Abrahm. Now you pull out your

927
00:52:03,680 --> 00:52:06,319
Speaker 2: gun and you shoot Jacob in the back. I mean

928
00:52:06,400 --> 00:52:11,080
Speaker 2: that's a possibility. Or you control these two men with

929
00:52:11,239 --> 00:52:14,000
Speaker 2: two offenders. Yeah, one's armed with a knife and one's

930
00:52:14,080 --> 00:52:15,080
Speaker 2: armed with a gun.

931
00:52:15,440 --> 00:52:19,880
Speaker 1: Okay, I forgot to tell you that these two murders

932
00:52:19,920 --> 00:52:24,279
Speaker 1: happened fifty miles away from the other ones, about eight

933
00:52:24,360 --> 00:52:28,080
Speaker 1: days after the last ones, after John at the way station.

934
00:52:28,560 --> 00:52:31,440
Speaker 1: So these are happening to me so quickly, especially with

935
00:52:31,520 --> 00:52:34,520
Speaker 1: the distances that you know the offender is traveling. So

936
00:52:35,040 --> 00:52:37,279
Speaker 1: it's clear they've been able to get away with this.

937
00:52:37,280 --> 00:52:40,280
Speaker 2: So far right, you know. And the interesting thing about

938
00:52:40,280 --> 00:52:46,040
Speaker 2: this is obviously you have a series. It appears, you know,

939
00:52:46,120 --> 00:52:48,800
Speaker 2: even though back in the day they don't have DNA

940
00:52:48,880 --> 00:52:52,080
Speaker 2: to say it's the same person. But there's enough mo

941
00:52:52,080 --> 00:52:55,359
Speaker 2: o characteristics that you say, yeah, you have somebody that's

942
00:52:55,400 --> 00:53:01,480
Speaker 2: going around killing men and robbing them, you know, financially motivated.

943
00:53:01,920 --> 00:53:05,480
Speaker 2: So you know, by definition, for some people you could

944
00:53:05,480 --> 00:53:09,840
Speaker 2: say this is a serial killer. You know. Now, this

945
00:53:09,960 --> 00:53:13,200
Speaker 2: is a very different type of psychology than the fantasy

946
00:53:13,239 --> 00:53:15,960
Speaker 2: motivated killer. At this point in time based on what

947
00:53:16,000 --> 00:53:18,719
Speaker 2: you've told me. Now, there may be aspects where this

948
00:53:18,920 --> 00:53:22,200
Speaker 2: is an offender that really gets off on killing men,

949
00:53:23,160 --> 00:53:26,400
Speaker 2: but it appears that he's doing this for financial purposes

950
00:53:26,520 --> 00:53:29,120
Speaker 2: at this point in time, and I'm not convinced it's

951
00:53:29,120 --> 00:53:33,839
Speaker 2: a single offender at this stage. So it's it's fascinating

952
00:53:33,840 --> 00:53:39,120
Speaker 2: from that perspective, and so I'm really curious to see

953
00:53:39,160 --> 00:53:43,160
Speaker 2: what other cases you know, are part of this series

954
00:53:43,239 --> 00:53:45,839
Speaker 2: and ultimately who is the person responsible.

955
00:53:46,320 --> 00:53:51,120
Speaker 1: Well, about three weeks later, we have another murder, but

956
00:53:51,600 --> 00:53:54,040
Speaker 1: we have a survivor also, oh, we have a witness.

957
00:53:54,520 --> 00:53:58,880
Speaker 1: We will talk about all of that next week. Because

958
00:53:59,280 --> 00:54:01,520
Speaker 1: I did not know until about five minutes ago that

959
00:54:01,560 --> 00:54:04,759
Speaker 1: this would need to be it's harder because I just

960
00:54:04,800 --> 00:54:06,960
Speaker 1: told Alexis I didn't know you were going to like

961
00:54:07,000 --> 00:54:09,399
Speaker 1: this case so much, and that's great. I would rather,

962
00:54:09,800 --> 00:54:12,480
Speaker 1: you know, have to expand it. But we we have

963
00:54:12,560 --> 00:54:14,680
Speaker 1: a lot lot more to talk about.

964
00:54:15,160 --> 00:54:18,080
Speaker 2: Nope, you and right now, this is very akin to

965
00:54:18,120 --> 00:54:20,680
Speaker 2: where you have a series of robberies, you know, maybe

966
00:54:20,680 --> 00:54:23,319
Speaker 2: not necessarily resulting in homicide, but you do have one

967
00:54:23,320 --> 00:54:26,840
Speaker 2: offender that's going around and robbing people for financial purposes,

968
00:54:27,160 --> 00:54:29,200
Speaker 2: and so I would say it's it's very similar to

969
00:54:29,400 --> 00:54:31,800
Speaker 2: a modern version of this type of crime.

970
00:54:32,200 --> 00:54:36,120
Speaker 1: Well, we will talk about this type of crime next week.

971
00:54:36,400 --> 00:54:38,279
Speaker 2: All right, I'm looking forward to it again.

972
00:54:42,719 --> 00:54:45,240
Speaker 1: This has been an exactly right production.

973
00:54:45,239 --> 00:54:48,120
Speaker 2: For our sources and show notes go to exactly Rightmedia

974
00:54:48,200 --> 00:54:50,640
Speaker 2: dot com slash Buried Bones Sources.

975
00:54:50,840 --> 00:54:53,200
Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Alexis Amrosi.

976
00:54:53,520 --> 00:54:56,480
Speaker 2: Research by Alison Trumble and Kate Winkler Dawson.

977
00:54:56,719 --> 00:54:58,960
Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ben Toliday.

978
00:54:59,280 --> 00:55:01,560
Speaker 2: Our theme saw is by Tom Bryfogel.

979
00:55:01,840 --> 00:55:03,880
Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

980
00:55:04,120 --> 00:55:08,240
Speaker 2: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hard Stark and Danielle Kramer.

981
00:55:08,520 --> 00:55:11,919
Speaker 1: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

982
00:55:12,000 --> 00:55:13,160
Speaker 1: Buried Bones pod.

983
00:55:13,600 --> 00:55:16,160
Speaker 2: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded

984
00:55:16,200 --> 00:55:18,200
Speaker 2: Age story of murder and the race to decode the

985
00:55:18,200 --> 00:55:20,279
Speaker 2: criminal mind, is available now.

986
00:55:20,320 --> 00:55:24,600
Speaker 1: And Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life Solving America's

987
00:55:24,600 --> 00:55:26,680
Speaker 1: Cold Cases is also available now.

988
00:55:27,000 --> 00:55:30,719
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989
00:55:30,800 --> 00:55:32,719
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