1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:27,320 Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of I Heart Radio. Welcome 2 00:00:27,360 --> 00:00:30,520 Speaker 1: back to the show, Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always 3 00:00:30,600 --> 00:00:33,880 Speaker 1: so much for tuning in. Let's give a big hand, 4 00:00:33,920 --> 00:00:37,240 Speaker 1: so long as you're not driving to our man, the myth, 5 00:00:37,320 --> 00:00:40,880 Speaker 1: the legend, the one and only super producer, Mr Max Williams. 6 00:00:42,760 --> 00:00:45,960 Speaker 1: You can give it one hand if you're driving, that's okay, 7 00:00:46,000 --> 00:00:48,520 Speaker 1: just for a second. Then go back to Tennant to 8 00:00:48,280 --> 00:00:52,279 Speaker 1: Tennant to um. Yeah. Max is our own kind of 9 00:00:52,320 --> 00:00:55,320 Speaker 1: god of deception here. He's a real low key esque figure, 10 00:00:55,360 --> 00:00:58,960 Speaker 1: a real puckish fellow. And uh they called me Ben, 11 00:00:59,200 --> 00:01:03,120 Speaker 1: you're oal and no, you and I have been excited 12 00:01:03,640 --> 00:01:09,160 Speaker 1: about today's episode for quite some time. We love stories 13 00:01:09,240 --> 00:01:16,440 Speaker 1: about espionage. We love learning these um often often like 14 00:01:16,600 --> 00:01:21,360 Speaker 1: obscured in the modern day tales of what really happened 15 00:01:21,400 --> 00:01:24,800 Speaker 1: behind the scenes. Well, it's so interesting now, especially, I mean, 16 00:01:24,880 --> 00:01:27,520 Speaker 1: you know, we're living in a obviously a different time 17 00:01:27,640 --> 00:01:30,240 Speaker 1: than the early days of the Cold War, but we're 18 00:01:30,280 --> 00:01:34,399 Speaker 1: grappling with some very similar paranoia either around you know, 19 00:01:34,520 --> 00:01:38,920 Speaker 1: things like existential threats like climate change. Obviously now with 20 00:01:39,200 --> 00:01:42,520 Speaker 1: with Vladimir Putin really kind of puffing his chest out 21 00:01:42,520 --> 00:01:45,000 Speaker 1: and and pushing forward into Ukraine. You know, when that 22 00:01:45,040 --> 00:01:46,520 Speaker 1: first happened, I think a lot of people are, well, well, 23 00:01:46,560 --> 00:01:48,480 Speaker 1: if he's gonna do that, what's he gonna do next? 24 00:01:48,880 --> 00:01:50,640 Speaker 1: And then what's what's he gonna do after that? And 25 00:01:50,680 --> 00:01:52,080 Speaker 1: then what are we you know, where do we fit 26 00:01:52,080 --> 00:01:55,240 Speaker 1: into this equation? So, you know, the Cold War was 27 00:01:55,280 --> 00:01:58,840 Speaker 1: a time where it was hard to trust people because 28 00:01:58,920 --> 00:02:01,120 Speaker 1: there was a lot of con learned that someone who 29 00:02:01,200 --> 00:02:04,280 Speaker 1: you might think was your neighbor could actually be, you know, 30 00:02:04,320 --> 00:02:09,400 Speaker 1: a Red spy. And how how I proposed that you 31 00:02:09,480 --> 00:02:13,400 Speaker 1: bring this up? No, because you and I have become 32 00:02:13,480 --> 00:02:20,240 Speaker 1: fascinated recently by a novel called Gods of Deception. And 33 00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:24,639 Speaker 1: as you know, fellow ridiculous historians, we like to go 34 00:02:24,880 --> 00:02:29,080 Speaker 1: to the source whenever we have questions, whenever we want 35 00:02:29,120 --> 00:02:33,600 Speaker 1: to learn more. We had, in full disclosure, kicked around 36 00:02:34,160 --> 00:02:38,639 Speaker 1: off the air a couple of ideas about episodes surrounding 37 00:02:38,880 --> 00:02:43,080 Speaker 1: a gentleman named Algier Hiss, which will be familiar to 38 00:02:43,280 --> 00:02:47,360 Speaker 1: some but maybe not all of our listeners today. And no, 39 00:02:48,120 --> 00:02:51,520 Speaker 1: you and I had this moment where we looked at 40 00:02:51,520 --> 00:02:54,760 Speaker 1: each other. We're talking about alger Hiss. We're talking, We're 41 00:02:54,760 --> 00:02:59,040 Speaker 1: talking about Hiss. We're talking about this book, and um, 42 00:02:59,200 --> 00:03:06,799 Speaker 1: we were fortunate enough, lucky enough to join with the author, 43 00:03:07,320 --> 00:03:12,000 Speaker 1: the historian, the creator of this and many other works, 44 00:03:12,680 --> 00:03:16,560 Speaker 1: Mr David Adams, Cleveland. David, thank you so much for 45 00:03:16,639 --> 00:03:19,200 Speaker 1: joining us on the show today. Oh, Benn, it's my 46 00:03:19,280 --> 00:03:23,240 Speaker 1: pleasure now you have. I don't want to make I 47 00:03:23,240 --> 00:03:25,200 Speaker 1: don't want to make it awkward. You and I were 48 00:03:25,320 --> 00:03:28,680 Speaker 1: talking before we started rolling today and I said, I'm 49 00:03:28,720 --> 00:03:34,560 Speaker 1: going to try not to fanboy too much. But um, 50 00:03:34,680 --> 00:03:39,080 Speaker 1: Noel and I are authors as well, and one thing 51 00:03:39,200 --> 00:03:45,520 Speaker 1: that has always impressed me is the pursuit of literary fiction. 52 00:03:46,200 --> 00:03:51,680 Speaker 1: Could you tell us a little bit about what inspired 53 00:03:51,760 --> 00:03:56,160 Speaker 1: you to create Gods of Deception and then tell us 54 00:03:56,160 --> 00:03:59,960 Speaker 1: a little bit about this story, because I hope I 55 00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:04,840 Speaker 1: not the only person who was unaware of this before 56 00:04:05,080 --> 00:04:07,520 Speaker 1: encountering your work. No, No, you got me too. I 57 00:04:07,600 --> 00:04:11,080 Speaker 1: was unnoying. Well, Ben, No, let me set just say 58 00:04:11,160 --> 00:04:14,800 Speaker 1: that the Aldre his affair has been something that's been 59 00:04:14,840 --> 00:04:18,120 Speaker 1: on my radar screen since I was a kid. I 60 00:04:18,160 --> 00:04:24,799 Speaker 1: can remember years decades past, Bill Buckley having various guests 61 00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:30,200 Speaker 1: on firing Line and arguing about the about the innocence 62 00:04:30,279 --> 00:04:34,320 Speaker 1: or guilt of Aldrew Hiss. It was a huge, huge 63 00:04:34,520 --> 00:04:38,640 Speaker 1: issue in this country. The trial was nineteen fifty, but 64 00:04:38,839 --> 00:04:43,000 Speaker 1: for fifty years afterwards it divided the country between those 65 00:04:43,240 --> 00:04:48,160 Speaker 1: who thought Aldre Hiss was an innocent paragon of the 66 00:04:48,520 --> 00:04:51,400 Speaker 1: of the New Deal, the State Department, he was president 67 00:04:51,480 --> 00:04:54,960 Speaker 1: of the Carnegie Endowment, and half the country who thought 68 00:04:55,040 --> 00:04:57,960 Speaker 1: he was a trader who had sat at the right 69 00:04:58,040 --> 00:05:00,880 Speaker 1: hand of Roosevelt during the y'all to give away of 70 00:05:00,920 --> 00:05:03,880 Speaker 1: Eastern Europe and a lot of other bad things. So 71 00:05:04,320 --> 00:05:06,840 Speaker 1: this has been going on for quite a while and 72 00:05:07,040 --> 00:05:11,160 Speaker 1: in recent decades. In recent years a lot of new 73 00:05:11,240 --> 00:05:14,559 Speaker 1: information has come out. And the long and the short 74 00:05:14,600 --> 00:05:17,839 Speaker 1: of it is that we now know that his was 75 00:05:17,920 --> 00:05:22,240 Speaker 1: not only guilty, he was guilty of crimes that went 76 00:05:22,360 --> 00:05:26,760 Speaker 1: far beyond what he was actually charged for in the trial, 77 00:05:26,839 --> 00:05:31,679 Speaker 1: which was passing State Department documents in the late nineteen 78 00:05:31,760 --> 00:05:38,120 Speaker 1: thirties to Whittwaker Chambers, who was his Soviet military intelligence contact. Right, 79 00:05:38,880 --> 00:05:43,360 Speaker 1: So we now know that that was just that was 80 00:05:43,440 --> 00:05:47,320 Speaker 1: just the ten percent of the iceberg of it was 81 00:05:47,400 --> 00:05:52,240 Speaker 1: below the surface. We know that his and his fellow 82 00:05:52,279 --> 00:05:56,919 Speaker 1: spies in the Treasury Department and the State Department and 83 00:05:57,040 --> 00:06:00,560 Speaker 1: the White House even there were five of them at 84 00:06:00,640 --> 00:06:05,400 Speaker 1: least Stalin's willing agents working in the thirties and forties 85 00:06:05,400 --> 00:06:10,120 Speaker 1: and early fifties to further the goals of the Soviet Union. 86 00:06:10,480 --> 00:06:13,800 Speaker 1: So there were five hundred spies and a number that 87 00:06:13,920 --> 00:06:18,640 Speaker 1: still boggles my mind. There were two hundred thousand members 88 00:06:18,680 --> 00:06:23,359 Speaker 1: of the American Communist Party in the day, and uh, 89 00:06:23,400 --> 00:06:27,880 Speaker 1: they provided the infrastructure, the underground, the background, the support 90 00:06:28,000 --> 00:06:32,640 Speaker 1: system for the five hundred Soviet spies that were instrumental 91 00:06:32,920 --> 00:06:36,839 Speaker 1: in the stealing of the Adam bomb secrets and a 92 00:06:36,880 --> 00:06:39,680 Speaker 1: lot of other bad things that led to the Korean 93 00:06:39,680 --> 00:06:43,040 Speaker 1: War and Pearl Harbor. So that's just a starter. And 94 00:06:43,040 --> 00:06:45,760 Speaker 1: this is of course before the McCarthy hearings. I mean 95 00:06:46,080 --> 00:06:48,480 Speaker 1: that was when you know, it became you were blacklisted 96 00:06:48,520 --> 00:06:50,200 Speaker 1: if you were a member, you were one of those 97 00:06:51,240 --> 00:06:54,360 Speaker 1: hundreds of thousands of Americans that were a member of 98 00:06:54,400 --> 00:06:57,280 Speaker 1: the Communist Party. So this is sort of like maybe 99 00:06:57,279 --> 00:07:00,200 Speaker 1: one of the big trials that led to that kind 100 00:07:00,240 --> 00:07:02,840 Speaker 1: of which hunt mentality or right, what's what do you 101 00:07:02,839 --> 00:07:06,040 Speaker 1: feel like that fits in to this story. Well, there's 102 00:07:06,200 --> 00:07:11,600 Speaker 1: no question that the conviction of Altre Hiss for spying 103 00:07:12,760 --> 00:07:16,160 Speaker 1: was a wake up call to America. It also happened 104 00:07:16,200 --> 00:07:20,520 Speaker 1: at the same time that the Soviets tested their first 105 00:07:20,680 --> 00:07:25,200 Speaker 1: atomic bomb. It was also at the time that the 106 00:07:25,240 --> 00:07:29,720 Speaker 1: Red Chinese Mouzi Tongue took over China. It was also 107 00:07:29,880 --> 00:07:34,720 Speaker 1: right before the outbreak of the Korean War, So all 108 00:07:34,760 --> 00:07:40,600 Speaker 1: of these played into UM the spy frenzy, the red 109 00:07:40,680 --> 00:07:45,760 Speaker 1: baiting uh nineteen fifties. The truth of the matter is 110 00:07:45,760 --> 00:07:48,280 Speaker 1: is that there were had been a lot of spies. 111 00:07:48,320 --> 00:07:50,520 Speaker 1: There were five hundred of them that we now know. 112 00:07:51,160 --> 00:07:54,600 Speaker 1: There were, in fact two hundred thousand Americans who have 113 00:07:54,680 --> 00:07:59,040 Speaker 1: been part of the Communist Party. By the nineteen fifties, 114 00:07:59,760 --> 00:08:02,480 Speaker 1: most most of those members had kind of slunk away 115 00:08:02,640 --> 00:08:06,360 Speaker 1: and disappeared into the woodwork, and most of the spies 116 00:08:06,440 --> 00:08:10,480 Speaker 1: had either been um had had been shown up and 117 00:08:10,560 --> 00:08:13,680 Speaker 1: so had also disappeared, or had been the few that 118 00:08:13,720 --> 00:08:16,840 Speaker 1: had been convicted. So by the nineteen fifties it was 119 00:08:16,960 --> 00:08:19,480 Speaker 1: kind of a done deal. It was over. The damage 120 00:08:19,800 --> 00:08:23,840 Speaker 1: had long been done, but they didn't know that. In 121 00:08:23,880 --> 00:08:28,040 Speaker 1: the nineteen fifties there was still a feeling that the 122 00:08:28,160 --> 00:08:31,040 Speaker 1: US was under threat. It wasn't as much under threat 123 00:08:31,040 --> 00:08:34,000 Speaker 1: as it had been but it was still there, so 124 00:08:34,160 --> 00:08:44,480 Speaker 1: it was a very ambiguous time. One thing that I 125 00:08:44,520 --> 00:08:50,040 Speaker 1: think is fascinating about his his early life or his 126 00:08:50,280 --> 00:08:55,040 Speaker 1: you know, his trajectory, that is I think quite an 127 00:08:55,080 --> 00:09:00,720 Speaker 1: informative here is that David he had as all the 128 00:09:00,760 --> 00:09:07,240 Speaker 1: makings of the ideal asset for a foreign intelligence agency. 129 00:09:07,280 --> 00:09:09,720 Speaker 1: I mean, this is a guy who was a clerk 130 00:09:09,880 --> 00:09:13,760 Speaker 1: in the Supreme Court. He was a oh he was, 131 00:09:14,120 --> 00:09:17,280 Speaker 1: of course, as you mentioned, involved a state department, later 132 00:09:17,320 --> 00:09:20,720 Speaker 1: became a u N official. He was also, I believe 133 00:09:20,840 --> 00:09:24,319 Speaker 1: a graduate of Harvard. Is that correct? And Johns Hopkins 134 00:09:24,960 --> 00:09:28,640 Speaker 1: not mistaken not to mention a real smoke show, real, 135 00:09:28,800 --> 00:09:32,360 Speaker 1: real good looking man. Yeah. The the the interesting thing 136 00:09:32,520 --> 00:09:35,599 Speaker 1: is that Aldre Hiss and a lot of his uh 137 00:09:35,800 --> 00:09:40,199 Speaker 1: underground colleagues, uh, we're all Harvard graduates. There were a 138 00:09:40,280 --> 00:09:43,400 Speaker 1: lot of them. He wasn't just yes. And that's something 139 00:09:43,520 --> 00:09:48,200 Speaker 1: I think that might surprise many people unfamiliar with the 140 00:09:48,320 --> 00:09:53,520 Speaker 1: story because often in the public sphere, when people think 141 00:09:53,679 --> 00:09:58,200 Speaker 1: in terms of espionage and spycraft, uh, they think in 142 00:09:58,400 --> 00:10:04,760 Speaker 1: terms of some kind of deep cover, very ordinary, possible 143 00:10:04,800 --> 00:10:09,880 Speaker 1: mid level bureaucrat. They don't necessarily think of people who 144 00:10:09,920 --> 00:10:13,760 Speaker 1: are at the wheels of the halls of power. Could 145 00:10:13,760 --> 00:10:18,040 Speaker 1: you tell us a little bit about um hiss is 146 00:10:18,720 --> 00:10:24,400 Speaker 1: evolution toward becoming a spy? As as you said, you know, Um, 147 00:10:24,440 --> 00:10:27,840 Speaker 1: there was a lot of information that only came out 148 00:10:28,160 --> 00:10:32,439 Speaker 1: after the fact. Is there a moment in this man's 149 00:10:32,480 --> 00:10:37,920 Speaker 1: life or a frame of time where he encountered some 150 00:10:38,040 --> 00:10:44,200 Speaker 1: sort of ideology or event that UM persuaded him turned him, 151 00:10:44,240 --> 00:10:48,679 Speaker 1: that turned him. That's a great question. And Uh, the 152 00:10:48,760 --> 00:10:54,040 Speaker 1: answer is is that nobody really knows for sure, because 153 00:10:54,320 --> 00:10:59,440 Speaker 1: his is unique among the great major spies. If you 154 00:10:59,520 --> 00:11:04,720 Speaker 1: look instance at the British Cambridge Five, the great spies, 155 00:11:05,120 --> 00:11:11,640 Speaker 1: Kim Philby, Donald McLean, Anthony Blunt, John Cairncross, they all 156 00:11:11,800 --> 00:11:15,240 Speaker 1: fled to the Soviet Union. Uh. They all spent their 157 00:11:15,320 --> 00:11:19,880 Speaker 1: last days at their docas outside of Moscow. They admitted 158 00:11:19,920 --> 00:11:23,120 Speaker 1: that they had been spies and they were under such 159 00:11:23,360 --> 00:11:27,280 Speaker 1: pressure during the days of their spying. They were traders 160 00:11:27,320 --> 00:11:30,680 Speaker 1: to the country, they were traders to their to their class. 161 00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:35,959 Speaker 1: Uh that they were all alcoholics. They literally drank themselves 162 00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:39,800 Speaker 1: into early graves. So we have a pretty good idea 163 00:11:39,840 --> 00:11:43,440 Speaker 1: about when they became a Communists, mostly in their their 164 00:11:43,520 --> 00:11:48,640 Speaker 1: days at Cambridge. Uh, and they were active Communists, uh 165 00:11:48,679 --> 00:11:51,720 Speaker 1: and in in support of the Soviet Union from day one. 166 00:11:52,400 --> 00:11:55,800 Speaker 1: We don't know that much about altre His. He managed 167 00:11:55,840 --> 00:12:01,679 Speaker 1: to keep his affiliations under wraps. Only Whittaker Chambers, the 168 00:12:01,720 --> 00:12:05,640 Speaker 1: guy who found him out and who was he was 169 00:12:05,679 --> 00:12:12,040 Speaker 1: his spy handler, and who was was in the trial 170 00:12:13,559 --> 00:12:17,559 Speaker 1: against aldre His. He was the only person who really 171 00:12:17,679 --> 00:12:21,040 Speaker 1: knew algre His when he was reading up on Lenin 172 00:12:21,520 --> 00:12:25,400 Speaker 1: and in Marxist studied groups and that kind of things. 173 00:12:25,440 --> 00:12:29,040 Speaker 1: So we know that that went on, but we don't 174 00:12:29,080 --> 00:12:33,280 Speaker 1: know from algre His or any of his um contemporary 175 00:12:33,760 --> 00:12:38,000 Speaker 1: spies or agent or Communist party members exactly how that 176 00:12:38,120 --> 00:12:43,400 Speaker 1: evolution took place. But it was quite clear that for 177 00:12:43,600 --> 00:12:46,720 Speaker 1: his to get where he got in the highest reaches 178 00:12:46,800 --> 00:12:50,240 Speaker 1: of the State Department, he couldn't show any of that. 179 00:12:50,720 --> 00:12:54,679 Speaker 1: If he was caught reading the New Masses magazine or 180 00:12:54,720 --> 00:12:58,400 Speaker 1: the Communist Manifesto or the works of Lenin, that would 181 00:12:58,440 --> 00:13:01,360 Speaker 1: have come up in his security errands. So he was 182 00:13:01,440 --> 00:13:06,960 Speaker 1: obviously very careful um not to display anything like that 183 00:13:06,960 --> 00:13:11,920 Speaker 1: that would have brought issues in terms of his security clearance. 184 00:13:12,160 --> 00:13:16,679 Speaker 1: But the amazing thing is is that Alger Hiss maintained 185 00:13:16,760 --> 00:13:20,160 Speaker 1: his innocence literally to his dying day. He went to 186 00:13:20,280 --> 00:13:23,600 Speaker 1: jail for four years, he came out, and again he 187 00:13:23,720 --> 00:13:28,600 Speaker 1: tried to undo his conviction, and uh tried it again 188 00:13:28,640 --> 00:13:33,040 Speaker 1: and again to appeal his conviction. Was unable to do so. Um, 189 00:13:33,080 --> 00:13:37,280 Speaker 1: but to his dying day, with the greatest equanimity, maintained 190 00:13:37,320 --> 00:13:40,760 Speaker 1: his total innocence. And that was a conviction for perjury, 191 00:13:40,920 --> 00:13:43,480 Speaker 1: which is obviously a big deal, but it's not the 192 00:13:43,520 --> 00:13:48,920 Speaker 1: same as treason. Well, the conviction was for perjury about 193 00:13:49,040 --> 00:13:54,120 Speaker 1: lying about passing top secret State Department papers to Whittaker Chambers, 194 00:13:54,160 --> 00:13:59,480 Speaker 1: so it amounted to uh to espionage and a traitorous 195 00:13:59,520 --> 00:14:02,880 Speaker 1: active it even though the they got him on the 196 00:14:02,920 --> 00:14:07,520 Speaker 1: technical issue of perjuring. Yes, I see, I've always wondered, 197 00:14:07,520 --> 00:14:10,000 Speaker 1: you know, you talked about these two hundred thousand Americans 198 00:14:10,040 --> 00:14:12,920 Speaker 1: that you know, identified as members of the Communist Party 199 00:14:12,920 --> 00:14:17,400 Speaker 1: at that time. That doesn't necessarily mean, you know, complete 200 00:14:17,400 --> 00:14:20,680 Speaker 1: affiliation with the Soviet Union, or that they were spies, 201 00:14:20,760 --> 00:14:22,600 Speaker 1: or that they were in some way trying to bring 202 00:14:22,640 --> 00:14:25,000 Speaker 1: down the government of the United States. I mean, isn't 203 00:14:25,040 --> 00:14:26,600 Speaker 1: there some of those that just thought it was an 204 00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:29,400 Speaker 1: interesting philosophy and and found, you know, things in it 205 00:14:29,440 --> 00:14:31,760 Speaker 1: they were functional that maybe they wanted to read about 206 00:14:31,760 --> 00:14:34,640 Speaker 1: and that they were inspired by. It's a little bit 207 00:14:34,680 --> 00:14:38,680 Speaker 1: hard to say, because, uh, most of the members of 208 00:14:38,720 --> 00:14:42,760 Speaker 1: the American Communist Party UH just stated into the woodwork 209 00:14:42,960 --> 00:14:47,000 Speaker 1: and UH didn't admit anything about their past, and most 210 00:14:47,080 --> 00:14:51,160 Speaker 1: would say that, uh, they were idealists. And in fact, 211 00:14:51,240 --> 00:14:55,200 Speaker 1: the American Communist Party, it has to be said, was 212 00:14:55,360 --> 00:15:00,160 Speaker 1: in the forefront of trying to get civil rights reform 213 00:15:00,160 --> 00:15:03,560 Speaker 1: early in the UH. In the in the thirties and forties, 214 00:15:03,960 --> 00:15:07,200 Speaker 1: they were really in the forefront for calling for Voting 215 00:15:07,280 --> 00:15:11,520 Speaker 1: Rights Act and the desegregation all of that good stuff. 216 00:15:11,600 --> 00:15:15,160 Speaker 1: So there were a lot of good things that they 217 00:15:15,320 --> 00:15:20,040 Speaker 1: believed in. But in fact, the Communist Party was in 218 00:15:20,120 --> 00:15:24,760 Speaker 1: itself a secret organization dedicated to the overthrow of the 219 00:15:24,800 --> 00:15:30,200 Speaker 1: American government. It was not a democratic party. They believed 220 00:15:30,240 --> 00:15:35,080 Speaker 1: in revolution. They believed in overthrowing the US government by 221 00:15:35,200 --> 00:15:39,520 Speaker 1: one way or another. So even though a lot of 222 00:15:39,560 --> 00:15:44,800 Speaker 1: the fellow travelers Communist Party members believed in good things 223 00:15:44,800 --> 00:15:49,320 Speaker 1: and wanted good things for the country, they nevertheless provided 224 00:15:49,400 --> 00:15:55,480 Speaker 1: the underground, uh, infrastructure financing and what have you for 225 00:15:56,000 --> 00:15:59,920 Speaker 1: the for the American spies. So they were you know, 226 00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:03,320 Speaker 1: they had they had their side to them. That was 227 00:16:03,760 --> 00:16:07,880 Speaker 1: pretty anodyne. But on the other hand, uh, they also 228 00:16:08,040 --> 00:16:11,920 Speaker 1: provided the underground for almost all the Soviet spies, and 229 00:16:12,040 --> 00:16:15,560 Speaker 1: almost all the Soviet spies came out of the American 230 00:16:15,600 --> 00:16:19,840 Speaker 1: Communist Party. Is fellow travelers a thing like I've not 231 00:16:19,920 --> 00:16:24,280 Speaker 1: heard that term used in this context before. Yeah, fellow travelers, 232 00:16:24,480 --> 00:16:28,080 Speaker 1: uh is uh sort of those little bit betwixt and 233 00:16:28,160 --> 00:16:31,880 Speaker 1: between who are not quite members of the party. Um. 234 00:16:31,920 --> 00:16:35,600 Speaker 1: But on the other hand, we're cow towing to most 235 00:16:35,640 --> 00:16:39,640 Speaker 1: of the party discipline and the party's line, uh in 236 00:16:39,800 --> 00:16:44,280 Speaker 1: terms of their attitudes towards the Soviet Union and uh, 237 00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:49,080 Speaker 1: the communist movement around the world. So, I mean one 238 00:16:49,120 --> 00:16:54,920 Speaker 1: of alger Hisses spy compatriots was Harry Dexter White, who 239 00:16:55,200 --> 00:16:58,880 Speaker 1: worked in the Treasury Department. Now Harry Dexter White, among 240 00:16:58,920 --> 00:17:02,200 Speaker 1: other things, and wittered your chambers knew this very well, 241 00:17:02,360 --> 00:17:06,680 Speaker 1: was never actually a member of the American Communist Party. 242 00:17:06,920 --> 00:17:09,760 Speaker 1: And if you're a member of the American Communist Party, 243 00:17:09,840 --> 00:17:13,159 Speaker 1: you are under the discipline of the party, which basically 244 00:17:13,200 --> 00:17:16,679 Speaker 1: means you're under the discipline of Moscow Central and the 245 00:17:16,720 --> 00:17:22,200 Speaker 1: Soviet Union in Stalin and his his his band of brothers. Right, 246 00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:26,720 Speaker 1: So Harry Dexter White was not under the discipline of 247 00:17:26,760 --> 00:17:29,919 Speaker 1: the Communist Party, but he did. He did some of 248 00:17:29,960 --> 00:17:32,760 Speaker 1: the more damage in some ways than even an alger 249 00:17:32,880 --> 00:17:38,320 Speaker 1: his Just as a brief example, Harry Dexter White was 250 00:17:38,640 --> 00:17:42,600 Speaker 1: called into a meeting by his Soviet handler. This was 251 00:17:42,840 --> 00:17:47,760 Speaker 1: in the summer of nine. Victor Pavlov was his name, 252 00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:51,800 Speaker 1: was the Soviet handler in Washington, d c. And he 253 00:17:51,840 --> 00:17:56,840 Speaker 1: asked Harry Dexter White to have a meeting with him 254 00:17:57,040 --> 00:18:01,159 Speaker 1: at Old Abbott's Grill across the from the Treasury Department 255 00:18:01,200 --> 00:18:05,600 Speaker 1: in Washington. And Pavlov says, I'll be carrying a copy 256 00:18:05,640 --> 00:18:07,879 Speaker 1: of the New Yorker. That's how you will recognize me. 257 00:18:07,960 --> 00:18:11,840 Speaker 1: They never met in person. They had lunch together at 258 00:18:11,840 --> 00:18:16,520 Speaker 1: Old Eppit's grill, and Pavlov same Pavlov like the dog 259 00:18:17,200 --> 00:18:20,959 Speaker 1: you can remember that, pushed a piece of paper across 260 00:18:21,000 --> 00:18:24,840 Speaker 1: the table to Harry Dexter White and said, I want 261 00:18:24,880 --> 00:18:27,280 Speaker 1: you to memorize what's on this piece of paper. And 262 00:18:27,320 --> 00:18:29,520 Speaker 1: Harry Dexter White picked it up and looked at it 263 00:18:29,560 --> 00:18:32,439 Speaker 1: and read it, nodded, noted, nodded and was about to 264 00:18:32,440 --> 00:18:34,840 Speaker 1: put it in his coat pockets, and Pabble says, dog, 265 00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:37,600 Speaker 1: give it back to me, and he handed it back 266 00:18:37,960 --> 00:18:41,760 Speaker 1: to Pavlov, and Pavlov said, do you remember everything that's 267 00:18:41,800 --> 00:18:44,760 Speaker 1: on that piece of paper? And Harry Dexter White said, 268 00:18:44,960 --> 00:18:51,600 Speaker 1: I do, I remember, and I will follow the orders explicitly. Well. 269 00:18:51,840 --> 00:18:54,000 Speaker 1: What was in that piece of paper was known as 270 00:18:54,119 --> 00:18:59,400 Speaker 1: Operation White, as in Snow White. This was a plan 271 00:18:59,600 --> 00:19:04,639 Speaker 1: can acted by intelligence agencies of the Soviet Union to 272 00:19:04,920 --> 00:19:10,440 Speaker 1: get Harry Dexter White to influence the pot American policy 273 00:19:10,520 --> 00:19:15,320 Speaker 1: towards Japan at this very precarious moment before Pearl Harbor, 274 00:19:16,640 --> 00:19:20,120 Speaker 1: when the Japanese had been fighting the Soviet Union for 275 00:19:20,400 --> 00:19:26,400 Speaker 1: years along the Soviet borders with Mongolia and Manchuria. They 276 00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:30,040 Speaker 1: had had flare ups there and thousands of soldiers had 277 00:19:30,040 --> 00:19:32,480 Speaker 1: been killed. It was a big deal. It was it was. 278 00:19:32,800 --> 00:19:36,520 Speaker 1: It was a war by by any shape or form. 279 00:19:36,560 --> 00:19:40,560 Speaker 1: And so the orders that Harry Dexter Watt got was 280 00:19:40,640 --> 00:19:44,640 Speaker 1: to put pressure on the Japanese. He was the top guy, 281 00:19:44,840 --> 00:19:47,640 Speaker 1: one of the highest officials in the Treasury Department. Put 282 00:19:47,680 --> 00:19:52,280 Speaker 1: pressure on the more sanctions on oil, steel, war materials, 283 00:19:52,359 --> 00:19:55,800 Speaker 1: rubber of all kinds. Ratchet up the pressure, ratchet up 284 00:19:55,840 --> 00:19:59,040 Speaker 1: the pressure. And the idea was that at the US 285 00:19:59,200 --> 00:20:03,639 Speaker 1: ratcheted up the pressure enough, the Japanese, instead of going 286 00:20:04,840 --> 00:20:10,840 Speaker 1: west into Siberia north into Siberia, would go east into 287 00:20:10,880 --> 00:20:15,000 Speaker 1: the Pacific and would attack the US and go south 288 00:20:15,080 --> 00:20:19,520 Speaker 1: into Indonesia where the oil was. And uh, Harry Dexter 289 00:20:19,600 --> 00:20:24,520 Speaker 1: White pushed this policy for many, many months with his 290 00:20:24,640 --> 00:20:28,160 Speaker 1: colleagues in the State Department and Treasury. And what happened. 291 00:20:28,520 --> 00:20:33,479 Speaker 1: They ratcheted up the pressure on the Japanese precisely at 292 00:20:33,520 --> 00:20:36,800 Speaker 1: the time that the U. S. Navy brass was telling 293 00:20:36,920 --> 00:20:41,840 Speaker 1: Roosevelt was telling the State Department, do not put pressure 294 00:20:41,880 --> 00:20:44,359 Speaker 1: on japan. We are not in a position to fight 295 00:20:44,359 --> 00:20:47,320 Speaker 1: a war in the Pacific, much less the Two Front War, 296 00:20:47,640 --> 00:20:51,880 Speaker 1: which we expect to be fighting against Germany any day. Now. Nevertheless, 297 00:20:52,160 --> 00:20:56,080 Speaker 1: Harry Dexter White pushed this policy. We upped the anti 298 00:20:56,480 --> 00:20:59,320 Speaker 1: where the Japanese pushed them, and they made the decision 299 00:20:59,640 --> 00:21:03,800 Speaker 1: to fight and go south to Pearl Harbor and the Pacific. 300 00:21:04,040 --> 00:21:09,440 Speaker 1: So there is a specific example of a Soviet spy 301 00:21:09,480 --> 00:21:22,359 Speaker 1: influencing American policy that literally brought about Pearl harbor. Yes, 302 00:21:22,560 --> 00:21:24,960 Speaker 1: and this is this is something that I am. I 303 00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:31,760 Speaker 1: am so glad we're discussing today, because the geopolitical circumstances 304 00:21:32,119 --> 00:21:38,000 Speaker 1: of Japan building up to that great conflict were I think, 305 00:21:38,040 --> 00:21:40,480 Speaker 1: for for the people in the know, the writing was 306 00:21:40,560 --> 00:21:45,160 Speaker 1: on the wall. Japan was it was known, it wasn't 307 00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:49,720 Speaker 1: a secret. Japan was resource poor in several key areas, 308 00:21:50,080 --> 00:21:54,880 Speaker 1: and they would go inevitably. One could argue in one 309 00:21:54,920 --> 00:21:59,359 Speaker 1: direction or another. And the way that you are describing 310 00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:05,120 Speaker 1: this um, this influence, this finger on the scale right 311 00:22:05,560 --> 00:22:10,040 Speaker 1: of this fellow traveler. I believe it's a story that 312 00:22:10,160 --> 00:22:14,320 Speaker 1: needs to be told more often, and I'd like to 313 00:22:14,720 --> 00:22:19,120 Speaker 1: I'd like to return David to something that you mentioned 314 00:22:19,160 --> 00:22:21,679 Speaker 1: that I think is going to catch a lot of 315 00:22:21,680 --> 00:22:27,680 Speaker 1: our fellow ridiculous historians a bit flat footed here. So Aldre, 316 00:22:27,800 --> 00:22:34,919 Speaker 1: his four doesn't pass away until, as we always say, 317 00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:40,160 Speaker 1: history is closer than um. Many people would like to think, right, 318 00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:42,880 Speaker 1: perhaps Faulkner is right when he says the past isn't 319 00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:47,600 Speaker 1: even past. But the thing that I really was drawn 320 00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:53,920 Speaker 1: to is that the story doesn't end when his goes 321 00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:58,119 Speaker 1: to prison, he gets out of prison, and then people 322 00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:04,480 Speaker 1: involved in the litigation. Right, people involved in the in 323 00:23:04,520 --> 00:23:09,280 Speaker 1: the legal proceedings, by one way or another, seemed to 324 00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:14,919 Speaker 1: meet with some abrupt ends. Could you tell us a 325 00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:20,399 Speaker 1: little bit about Aldre his post conviction, you know, or 326 00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:24,440 Speaker 1: post incarceration, excuse me, when he when he gets out, 327 00:23:24,640 --> 00:23:29,439 Speaker 1: when he serves his time and let's see, he's released 328 00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:34,760 Speaker 1: in n Is that correct? That's correct? Yes, So he 329 00:23:35,119 --> 00:23:40,399 Speaker 1: is released, he's disbarred. He goes on to write his 330 00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:43,720 Speaker 1: own book, I believe, which is about like you said, 331 00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:49,040 Speaker 1: he maintains his innocence. But what was what was the 332 00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:54,160 Speaker 1: fallout of this great discovery? You know, at this point, 333 00:23:54,280 --> 00:23:59,040 Speaker 1: Uncle Sam has no choice but to acknowledge, Yes, there 334 00:23:59,119 --> 00:24:03,720 Speaker 1: is espionage occurring at the highest levels. Were there changes 335 00:24:03,840 --> 00:24:09,080 Speaker 1: in US policy regarding this um? Were there further consequences 336 00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:14,520 Speaker 1: for his what happened to some of the people? And 337 00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:20,280 Speaker 1: I'm thinking also specifically of the example of Lawrence Dugan. 338 00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:26,600 Speaker 1: If I'm pronouncing that correctly, who has a well, I 339 00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:28,359 Speaker 1: I don't want to I don't want to poison the 340 00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:32,040 Speaker 1: weld too much here, David, But I believe he falls 341 00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:37,199 Speaker 1: from a window under questionable circumstances. That's absolutely right, And 342 00:24:37,280 --> 00:24:40,600 Speaker 1: this is actually one of the things that my reading 343 00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:43,359 Speaker 1: of the history and doing my research for the book, 344 00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:49,280 Speaker 1: that I was profoundly amazed at. Uh. It was something 345 00:24:49,320 --> 00:24:52,440 Speaker 1: that was spoken of at the time, but not too 346 00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:55,119 Speaker 1: many people paid a lot of attention to it. But 347 00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:59,440 Speaker 1: the fact is that a lot of the people around 348 00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:07,000 Speaker 1: the his trial, potential witnesses disappeared in and unhappy ways. 349 00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:12,199 Speaker 1: For instance, you mentioned Lawrence Duggin. Lawrence Duggin was in 350 00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:15,919 Speaker 1: the State Department with his He was actually before his 351 00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:21,440 Speaker 1: he was the golden boy of Soviet intelligence. Uh. They 352 00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:25,080 Speaker 1: had a lot of money writing on Lawrence Duggan. They 353 00:25:25,119 --> 00:25:28,720 Speaker 1: thought that he would prove to be the hiss Um 354 00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:33,240 Speaker 1: in the State Department. But Lawrence Duggin got cold feet 355 00:25:33,320 --> 00:25:36,880 Speaker 1: after a while. He was a very nervous character. But anyway, 356 00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:41,520 Speaker 1: Lawrence Duggin would have been called as a witness to 357 00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:45,440 Speaker 1: the Aldre His trial, who had obviously known Aldre hiss 358 00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:48,520 Speaker 1: and had obviously known Aldre His as a communist and 359 00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:51,880 Speaker 1: as a and as a spy. But Lawrence Duggan never 360 00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:57,160 Speaker 1: made it. He somehow fell out the sixteen story window 361 00:25:57,240 --> 00:26:02,040 Speaker 1: on Street in New York and fell to his death. Uh. 362 00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:06,520 Speaker 1: They found him in a snow bank, very near death. 363 00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:10,719 Speaker 1: On his last breath, a Catholic priest came along and 364 00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:13,720 Speaker 1: gave him the last rites. He had one gum shoe 365 00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:18,520 Speaker 1: on and one gum shoe off. Very strange thing. Uh. 366 00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:22,240 Speaker 1: And at the time it was remarked upon people couldn't 367 00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:27,760 Speaker 1: understand what had happened. His wife Um said it wasn't suicide, 368 00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:29,919 Speaker 1: that he was fine, that he was that he was 369 00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:33,040 Speaker 1: in good shape. Um. But it was a strange death. 370 00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:37,320 Speaker 1: But it was also a death by falling, which was 371 00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:42,240 Speaker 1: a specialty of the KGB. They knew their way around this. 372 00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:45,800 Speaker 1: And there was yet another witness in the algae his 373 00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:50,359 Speaker 1: trial by the name of Marvin Smith, who was a 374 00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:54,840 Speaker 1: lawyer in the Justice Department and he somehow fell six 375 00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:58,240 Speaker 1: stories to his death on an inner stairwell in the 376 00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:01,840 Speaker 1: Justice department. He was the man who had signed the 377 00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:07,359 Speaker 1: transfer document on his his Ford roadster which he wanted 378 00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:11,600 Speaker 1: to contribute to the Communist Party. And uh he needed 379 00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:14,800 Speaker 1: to get a legal document signed, and Marvin Smith was 380 00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:17,880 Speaker 1: a friend of Algree his going way back, had been 381 00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:22,080 Speaker 1: the witness to that signing of that document. That document 382 00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:26,320 Speaker 1: would have fairly conclusively proved that his was a member 383 00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:28,800 Speaker 1: of the Communist Party if not a if not a 384 00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:33,960 Speaker 1: spy and Marvin Smith uh fell to his death. Harry 385 00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:37,679 Speaker 1: Dexter why who we just talked about, died mysteriously of 386 00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:40,240 Speaker 1: a sudden heart attack at his home in New Hampshire, 387 00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:46,159 Speaker 1: just days after testifying about Kiss, denied knowing if his 388 00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:51,399 Speaker 1: was a Communist Party member, denied being a spy himself. Um. 389 00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:55,920 Speaker 1: He died suddenly of an overdose of digitalis um at 390 00:27:55,960 --> 00:28:00,280 Speaker 1: his home in New Hampshire. And talk about straight aine 391 00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:03,960 Speaker 1: deaths Algre hissed when he was in jail just before 392 00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:07,840 Speaker 1: he got out, was in jail with another Soviet spy 393 00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:11,880 Speaker 1: who had been convicted of spying. William Remington was murdered 394 00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:16,760 Speaker 1: in Lewis Bird Penitentiary. Uh when when Hiss was in 395 00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:20,399 Speaker 1: there and he was bluntoned to death by a couple 396 00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:24,720 Speaker 1: of inmates uh and nobody had any motive for doing it. Uh. 397 00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:28,000 Speaker 1: It was assumed that they were after something in his cell, 398 00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:31,959 Speaker 1: maybe to grab cigarettes or money, but it made no sense. 399 00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:38,600 Speaker 1: Most likely William Remington's had been killed by by the KGB, 400 00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:41,800 Speaker 1: or these guys have been hired by the KGB to 401 00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:46,360 Speaker 1: murder him as a warning to Aldre Hiss that if 402 00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:49,480 Speaker 1: when he got out from prison just two weeks later, 403 00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:52,440 Speaker 1: that he better keep his head down and keep quiet, 404 00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:56,720 Speaker 1: because what happened to William Remington's what's gonna happen to Hiss. 405 00:28:57,160 --> 00:29:01,720 Speaker 1: So Hiss was under no doubt that he better keep 406 00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:04,160 Speaker 1: his mouth shut one way or the other, and he 407 00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:08,560 Speaker 1: maintained his silence throughout the fifties and sixties right up 408 00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:18,200 Speaker 1: to his death. Hold the phone, hold the phone? It again, 409 00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:23,080 Speaker 1: someone need to hold something. I don't know should I 410 00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:25,680 Speaker 1: hold the phone? Guys? Where that expression comes from? But 411 00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:28,520 Speaker 1: I like it. I use it like like I guess 412 00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:32,040 Speaker 1: the day of landline phones. Nobody has ever really told 413 00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:35,000 Speaker 1: me to literally hold the phone. But what we mean, 414 00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:41,160 Speaker 1: I think it means putting someone on hold. But the guys, 415 00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:43,920 Speaker 1: then there's the real question is where did the phrase 416 00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:47,080 Speaker 1: being on hold come from? Like where did that expression 417 00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:49,080 Speaker 1: come from? Like like the holder, I don't know they're 418 00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:51,239 Speaker 1: asking that, you're asking the big questions. We don't have 419 00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:53,800 Speaker 1: time to dig into that right now because it's been 420 00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:55,800 Speaker 1: too much time. We actually have to have to end 421 00:29:55,920 --> 00:29:57,840 Speaker 1: this episode. But we thought it was going to be 422 00:29:57,840 --> 00:30:00,000 Speaker 1: like kind of a single topic discussion about a book 423 00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:02,840 Speaker 1: ended up going so many other places with a very 424 00:30:02,880 --> 00:30:06,760 Speaker 1: fascinating David Adams Cleveland. Um, so we're gonna take a 425 00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:09,200 Speaker 1: pause for this episode and then we're gonna come back 426 00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:12,440 Speaker 1: with a whole another episode with David that goes into 427 00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:17,280 Speaker 1: everything from art history to geo state of geopolitics, and honestly, 428 00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:19,200 Speaker 1: I was just kind of blown away by the guys 429 00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:23,760 Speaker 1: off the dome, uh fact dropping. And this is uh, 430 00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:27,440 Speaker 1: you know, long time listeners of ridiculous history or stuff. 431 00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:30,920 Speaker 1: They will want you know, you know that that next 432 00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:34,880 Speaker 1: conversation is oo, mommy for me. Uh. We are not 433 00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:38,640 Speaker 1: blowing smoke. Uh. We are big fans of the book 434 00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:42,880 Speaker 1: and David Cleveland's work. We can't wait for you to 435 00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:46,240 Speaker 1: check it out. So stay tuned for later this week 436 00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:50,640 Speaker 1: on Thursday, when we'll come with part two of our 437 00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:55,920 Speaker 1: conversation with David Adams Cleveland on Gods of Deception and 438 00:30:56,080 --> 00:30:59,920 Speaker 1: much much more. Thinks as always to Mr Max Williams, 439 00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:04,720 Speaker 1: Thanks to Alex Williams, Thanks to Christopher Hasiotis, Jonathan Strickland 440 00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:09,520 Speaker 1: ak the Quister, Thanks to um listen, let's thank let's 441 00:31:09,520 --> 00:31:12,480 Speaker 1: thank everybody well. Thanks to Beetle Juice. I loved that 442 00:31:12,560 --> 00:31:16,320 Speaker 1: film the star or the or the fictional character both. 443 00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:19,760 Speaker 1: You know what, It's Friday. Thanks to the Cosmos for 444 00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:23,000 Speaker 1: make thanks for thanks for making it Friday. The Cosmos 445 00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:25,280 Speaker 1: Matt Frederick of course, because you know he is the 446 00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:27,240 Speaker 1: best among us. He is the best among us and 447 00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:31,280 Speaker 1: also the star of our Max with the Facts audio bumper, 448 00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:34,400 Speaker 1: So thanks for that. Thanks to you, ridicul story are 449 00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:36,400 Speaker 1: the best. We love you very much with all of 450 00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:40,640 Speaker 1: our little shriveled hearts. Speaking for myself anyway, well, you 451 00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:42,760 Speaker 1: know it's it's time for the end of the episode. 452 00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:52,600 Speaker 1: Can you do the line? We'll see you nextbooks. For 453 00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:54,840 Speaker 1: more podcasts for my Heart Radio, visit the I Heart 454 00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:57,760 Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your 455 00:31:57,800 --> 00:31:58,520 Speaker 1: favorite shows.