Speaker 1: Hey, Brian, Hi Katie. So today we are going to
Speaker 1: talk a lot about a very twenty one century habit
Speaker 1: of mine. Those high colonics you do, no, no, not
Speaker 1: those that I don't, but something else altogether, a little
Speaker 1: something called Instagram stories. Ah. These are the videos and
Speaker 1: photos on Instagram that disappear after twenty four hours, right exactly,
Speaker 1: And I am absolutely addicted to them. Well you're not alone,
Speaker 1: because our guest today, actress Busy Phillips, very much shares
Speaker 1: that addiction. That's right. In fact, The New York Or
Speaker 1: even called Busy the breakout star of Instagram Stories. Hey
Speaker 1: I thought that was me, but anyway, the magazine said, quote,
Speaker 1: she has transformed her daily life as a struggling actor
Speaker 1: and l a mother into an addictive sitcom imagine I
Speaker 1: love Lucy mixed with a modern lifestyle guru. Busy doesn't
Speaker 1: just share goofy off the Cuff store raise about her
Speaker 1: day to day life, from her workout classes to her
Speaker 1: family vacations. She also regularly opens up about very personal
Speaker 1: and tough moments, the kind of warts and all stuff
Speaker 1: that celebrities don't usually divulge, stuff like her habit of
Speaker 1: picking her skin. I feel you're busy, or the time
Speaker 1: that TV pilot she started didn't get picked up. She's
Speaker 1: like your hilarious best friend, and she always, it seems,
Speaker 1: keeps it very, very real. And Busy would be the
Speaker 1: first to admit that her success on Instagram She's got
Speaker 1: over a million followers and counting, has led directly to
Speaker 1: some very exciting new opportunities. She's out this month with
Speaker 1: a memoir called This Will Only Hurt a Little, and
Speaker 1: her new late night talk show, Busy Tonight, will premiere
Speaker 1: October on E So we spoke with Busy about those
Speaker 1: new projects, the TV roles she's known for, and her
Speaker 1: two young daughters, and we also delved into some heavier topics,
Speaker 1: including sexual assault and how Busy helped her be a
Speaker 1: good friend Michelle Williams deal with Heath Ledger's death. To start, though,
Speaker 1: we began on a much lighter note and I asked
Speaker 1: Busy why she loves Instagram so much. I've been an
Speaker 1: actor since I was nineteen, so pretty young, and you know,
Speaker 1: it was always really hard for me. There was such
Speaker 1: a disparity between the articles that were written about me
Speaker 1: and the interviews I would do and what I knew
Speaker 1: my sensibility and my sense of humor and the things
Speaker 1: that were important to me. What those things were, you know,
Speaker 1: like those things didn't seem to ever be able to
Speaker 1: cut through the sort of traditional ways of celebrity journalism.
Speaker 1: And of course things have changed so much, but this
Speaker 1: is we're talking like late nineties, early two thousand's, and
Speaker 1: I always felt like I was misrepresented. And when Twitter
Speaker 1: came along, I found it to be incredibly empowering because
Speaker 1: for the first time I was able to get across
Speaker 1: my own point of view dire actually were fans of
Speaker 1: me unfiltered, and it was something that I quite enjoy it.
Speaker 1: And then I remember Instagram starting in my friend who's
Speaker 1: actually an actress, Constant Zimmer. I love her. I love
Speaker 1: her too, I've known her forever. So Constance was saying, no,
Speaker 1: Instagram is so much better. You gotta get on Instagram.
Speaker 1: And then I got. I got into it, and it
Speaker 1: was fine. But I think that thing started to happen
Speaker 1: where I felt the community build so I was able
Speaker 1: to present my life in as honest away as I could,
Speaker 1: which is and I I love following you. And of
Speaker 1: course you have really embraced Instagram stories, which are those
Speaker 1: fifteen second video or photo things that you can get
Speaker 1: when you just press on your face on the Instagram
Speaker 1: page on my face guys and basically UM's it seems
Speaker 1: like it's been a incredibly liberating for you. Well, it was.
Speaker 1: And you know the other thing that happened is that
Speaker 1: it sort of happened at a time in my career
Speaker 1: where I was unsure of what I wanted to do
Speaker 1: next and I wasn't really working. I had done the
Speaker 1: HBO show at Dannie McBride Vice Principles and that was
Speaker 1: coming out, but I was kind of in a holding
Speaker 1: pattern as an actor, and I was just living my
Speaker 1: life and being a mom. But one thing that I
Speaker 1: always have been is in just in life, is someone
Speaker 1: who loves to tell stories, you know. And I was
Speaker 1: kind of bored in my career. You know. I would
Speaker 1: put my daughters to bed at night and be a
Speaker 1: little bit bored. And where was your husband busy? Well,
Speaker 1: you know, we were having a moment and so you
Speaker 1: didn't really want to hang with him. I mean we did, yeah,
Speaker 1: kind of a little bit. Like it was just I
Speaker 1: just turned outward for for a little bit, you know,
Speaker 1: And and the response was pretty and ridable. And then
Speaker 1: then it became like things that were happening in my
Speaker 1: life and being able to build Yeah, these little vignettes,
Speaker 1: like these little stories, and I really enjoyed figuring out
Speaker 1: how to tell the best story. I was going to
Speaker 1: ask you about that, really, how do you yeah, how
Speaker 1: do you decide what you're instagramming? Because I know that
Speaker 1: you know, the trampoline based worker, Yeah happens, I mean,
Speaker 1: and then there's a lot of just there, Brian, You've
Speaker 1: been spending too much time on busy stories. Well, you know,
Speaker 1: I had to prep for this interviews. This was very
Speaker 1: hardcore work research. But you know there's some direct camera action.
Speaker 1: You talk a lot about sort of some small things
Speaker 1: that are happening in your life, what should you wear,
Speaker 1: what's going on with your daughters, and then some very
Speaker 1: serious topics like you know, raising money for hurricane victims,
Speaker 1: or your own anxiety. I mean, is there anything off
Speaker 1: limits in your Instagram? Yeah? I mean a little bit
Speaker 1: like including my kids in my instagram felt in the beginning,
Speaker 1: especially like I was taking the power back from paparazzi.
Speaker 1: Or I had a really horrible thing happened when Bernie
Speaker 1: was I think she was like three or four. Where
Speaker 1: is your daughter who's now ten? That's my daughter who's no. Ten.
Speaker 1: Where I just had one of those days with her
Speaker 1: where she or everything was wrong and she just threw
Speaker 1: this massive temper tantrum in public. And then I looked
Speaker 1: up and there was a guy with a camera and
Speaker 1: he was just like shooting the whole thing. And yeah,
Speaker 1: and I and I just like I remember just like
Speaker 1: sobbing in the car and feeling so helpless, Like I
Speaker 1: don't want that out there for her. You know, I'm
Speaker 1: talking about it now on your podcast, but like, do
Speaker 1: you know what I mean? Like I, but you don't
Speaker 1: want the video of it. That's horrible, and like kids
Speaker 1: should be allowed to have those days when they have
Speaker 1: meltdowns and whatever. And so we made that My husband
Speaker 1: and I have talked about it. We made the decision
Speaker 1: that it was okay for us to post photos of
Speaker 1: our kids. And I didn't. I thought of it as
Speaker 1: as being empowering to me. And then I know that
Speaker 1: there's a discussion of other people who feel like their
Speaker 1: kids didn't choose to be in the public eye and
Speaker 1: they should keep their privacy as much as possible, but
Speaker 1: to be honest, I go back and forth. I sometimes
Speaker 1: struggle with it a little bit. Like we were eating
Speaker 1: dinner and we're waiting for our car at Valet and
Speaker 1: this woman was just like walking her dog on the
Speaker 1: street here in l A and my daughters, you know,
Speaker 1: we're five ft away from me playing. I heard the
Speaker 1: woman say, oh, hi, Bertie, Hi cricket, and then I
Speaker 1: looked up and I was like, oh, no, we don't
Speaker 1: know this lady. And it occurred to me like I've
Speaker 1: done that to them, you know, And I get that
Speaker 1: night how to break down with Mark, and I was like,
Speaker 1: you know, it's so interesting because I've witnessed the culture
Speaker 1: change so dramatically, just you know, in the last ten years.
Speaker 1: And you know, when I was on the Today Show,
Speaker 1: I was very careful about talking about my kids or
Speaker 1: putting their picture out there, and I kind of took
Speaker 1: the lead from Jane Pauli, who just never did that
Speaker 1: and felt like she had to protect their privacy. And
Speaker 1: things have changed so dramatically. Now I'm much more relaxed.
Speaker 1: I mean, they are older, but I feel that, you know,
Speaker 1: if you look at Eva Chen, who I interviewed for
Speaker 1: a series I recently did who's had a fashion partnership
Speaker 1: set at Instagram and other parents, Um, they are being
Speaker 1: much more open about their kids. And you know, I
Speaker 1: do have mixed feelings about it too busy. It's hard
Speaker 1: for me. It's a struggle, and I a little bit
Speaker 1: I feel like it's a Pandora's box, like I already
Speaker 1: did it. I will say that Bertie's as she's gotten older.
Speaker 1: Sometimes last year someone commented, how come you only post
Speaker 1: photos of your younger daughter? And my response was, and
Speaker 1: this is true because Bertie has photo approval. We say
Speaker 1: do you want to be a part of this or
Speaker 1: do you you know, do you want this picture out there?
Speaker 1: And if she says no, then I'm like, yeah, of
Speaker 1: course you don't have to have that picture out there.
Speaker 1: And this similarly with them paid ads, because I really
Speaker 1: have been able to supplement my income doing the paid
Speaker 1: ads for Instagram. It occurred to me and when I
Speaker 1: use my kids, because a lot of brands obviously like
Speaker 1: that I'm a mom and like that I'm so open
Speaker 1: about parenting and all of that, that when I use
Speaker 1: my kids and ads, even though that money is going
Speaker 1: to their private school and our vacations and all that,
Speaker 1: I was saying, they are getting to their getting something
Speaker 1: from it. Um. But I but it occurred to me, Oh,
Speaker 1: I should pay them like I need to. So I
Speaker 1: need to put money a percentage of whatever it is
Speaker 1: that I'm getting paid for that post. If they're in it,
Speaker 1: I need to put money aside into an account for
Speaker 1: them for when they are eighteen they can have it.
Speaker 1: Let me ask you one thing about what you just
Speaker 1: said about paid ads, because this really struck me in
Speaker 1: reading about you, that you used to have to take
Speaker 1: some jobs that were not actually that interesting to you
Speaker 1: just to pay the bill, and now you've been able
Speaker 1: to make all this money doing ads Instagram. Let me
Speaker 1: just break it down for you as a person who's
Speaker 1: been a working actor for over twenty years, who's been
Speaker 1: on Freaks and Geeks, Dawson's Creek, I was on e
Speaker 1: Er for two years. I was on Cougar Town for
Speaker 1: six years. And I think people in the world assume
Speaker 1: that when you're working an actor who maybe has had
Speaker 1: some fame or people know who you are, you're recognizable,
Speaker 1: that the money just never stops and that you just
Speaker 1: like are constantly getting these checks and making a ton
Speaker 1: of money. I mean, I was. I talked about it
Speaker 1: in the book. I was basically broke by age seven,
Speaker 1: Like I had like lost all my money because I
Speaker 1: made like a bad real estate investment and whatever, but
Speaker 1: like I had no money. So um, yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: money especially like especially for artists, working actors, actors for
Speaker 1: higher it's always something that you're like, oh, God, what
Speaker 1: where's my next job? What how am I going to
Speaker 1: make money this year? Because you have all this instability
Speaker 1: and it's uncertainty. It's all uncertain and most actors, even
Speaker 1: the most famous actors that I've met and talked to,
Speaker 1: always have that feeling like this job might be my
Speaker 1: last job. Previously in my life before the Instagram monetizing
Speaker 1: my Instagram and that happened. Yeah, if I was offered
Speaker 1: like a week guest star on some show that I
Speaker 1: didn't love, I would take it because that's like I know,
Speaker 1: that's like dollars or sometimes twenty grand or whatever. And
Speaker 1: working on a television show, even as a guest star,
Speaker 1: it takes a lot of time and its effort, and
Speaker 1: if it's a show you're not crazy about, it's a bummer.
Speaker 1: Like you have to wake up at five in the morning,
Speaker 1: leave your maybe you don't see your kids for two
Speaker 1: days and whatever. So this is obviously you know, the
Speaker 1: financial security you've gotten. I know that in two thousand
Speaker 1: and sixteen you made more money from social media sponsorships
Speaker 1: than your acting roles, which is pretty amazing. So this
Speaker 1: gives you a lot more freedom to pick projects that
Speaker 1: are really important to you, not just to make ends meet. Yes,
Speaker 1: that's exactly right. And also I have I'm always nervous
Speaker 1: about money, and so it relieved me of that you
Speaker 1: always wanted to have your own talk show. I don't know,
Speaker 1: I don't know if that's what we read. Is that
Speaker 1: not you read that? I thought I read in your
Speaker 1: book that you had these goals and that at every
Speaker 1: stage in your life you've been able to sort of
Speaker 1: achieve what you wanted. You wanted to get out of
Speaker 1: Arizona and you did that. Oh yeah, that's that's the
Speaker 1: last that's the end of my book. No, no, no,
Speaker 1: The thing about the talk show is really interesting. So, um,
Speaker 1: many years ago, I guess I just have to say
Speaker 1: I was. I did a movie that Harvey Einstein was producing,
Speaker 1: and he was like, you should have your own talk show,
Speaker 1: and uh, I was like, now, that's not for me.
Speaker 1: I'm an actor. I love acting, it's not for me.
Speaker 1: So he was the first person that ever like said
Speaker 1: that to me. It just was not something that I
Speaker 1: was ever interested in, and because I have always loved acting,
Speaker 1: but the business has changed so much, and you used
Speaker 1: to be that like if you did one thing, you
Speaker 1: did that thing, and that was the thing you did.
Speaker 1: And now everybody does everything, which is fun, I think,
Speaker 1: but also can be overwhelming. Or when you think about
Speaker 1: sort of getting out there, putting yourself out on that
Speaker 1: kind of stage, it seems like the stakes are a
Speaker 1: little higher when it comes to a talk show in
Speaker 1: terms of everybody's a critic. How are you going to
Speaker 1: approach it? YadA, YadA, YadA, Who Katie, No no, no,
Speaker 1: no no no no, but no sorry, I don't mean
Speaker 1: to make it scary, but were you tymodacious at all
Speaker 1: about kind of you know, because it is sort of saying, hi,
Speaker 1: everyone here, I am have at it. Yeah, And I
Speaker 1: am very sensitive and um and I take things very personally.
Speaker 1: I know that about myself and I try to work
Speaker 1: on that. I know you're not gonna not everyone's gonna
Speaker 1: like you or even be kind about not liking you,
Speaker 1: you know. But I do feel like with the book
Speaker 1: and the talk show that I have made a decision
Speaker 1: to expose myself in a way that I personally that
Speaker 1: I've never done before. And even on Instagram, you're right,
Speaker 1: like you can You're allowed the jerks, you block the haters, Yeah,
Speaker 1: and you're able to sort of cocoon yourself and really
Speaker 1: nice feelings of people that want you to succeed and community. Katie,
Speaker 1: I think, as our audience probably knows, you did a
Speaker 1: talk show for two years, I did. If you were
Speaker 1: giving someone such as I don't know, Busy Um some
Speaker 1: advice about, you know, things I wish I had known
Speaker 1: when I started my talk show, what would those things be? Well,
Speaker 1: I think, you know, I think my goal in doing
Speaker 1: the show that I did was, you know, I came
Speaker 1: from a journalist perspective. I really wanted to educate and
Speaker 1: illuminate and enlighten people. And I think at two o'clock
Speaker 1: or three o'clock in the afternoon, where whenever my show ran,
Speaker 1: maybe people weren't that interested in that. So I think
Speaker 1: Busy is probably playing to a different audience with different
Speaker 1: expectations and desires. So I think that any advice I
Speaker 1: would give Busy is are things that she already knows,
Speaker 1: which of course is to be herself. To UM, connect
Speaker 1: with the audience is incredibly important. I think I minimize
Speaker 1: that because I was so interested in the guests and
Speaker 1: the conversations. But I think people just, you know, they
Speaker 1: in a way want company, They want you, They want
Speaker 1: to understand what makes you tick and how you feel
Speaker 1: about certain things. And as a journalist, by the way,
Speaker 1: I wasn't comfortable, you know, giving my opinion. I don't
Speaker 1: think you have to worry about that busy at all,
Speaker 1: which is great. I mean, I think clearly in the
Speaker 1: current landscape, not many people are actually worried about that anymore.
Speaker 1: But UM, I think I think the most important thing
Speaker 1: in life and in talk shows is to to be
Speaker 1: genuinely curious about the world, about people, about things that
Speaker 1: are happening around you. And I just don't think you
Speaker 1: can fake that. And um, I also think it's really
Speaker 1: important to be polite and to make the guests feel welcome,
Speaker 1: because I think the more relaxed a guest is, and
Speaker 1: the more interested you are in that person, the more
Speaker 1: they'll shine. So that's my advice. What do you think
Speaker 1: of that. I love it. You're gonna have no shortage
Speaker 1: of fun, interesting people to talk to, and I'm super
Speaker 1: excited for you. So how do you think about this show? Well,
Speaker 1: to be honest with you, you know, I've been a
Speaker 1: sort of a crossroads in my career. And um, I
Speaker 1: did a pilot that Tina Fey produced for NBC called
Speaker 1: The Sacket Sisters. It was me and Casey Wilson and
Speaker 1: Bradley Whitford played our dad. And I was like, well,
Speaker 1: this is it. This is my show and it's going
Speaker 1: to be great and it's Tina fe And then NBC
Speaker 1: didn't pick it up. Why do you think? I don't know, Katie,
Speaker 1: I don't know who knows why anyone does anything in
Speaker 1: this industry. But like crushed me in a way that
Speaker 1: I wasn't prepared for. And I had after twenty years
Speaker 1: of being an actor and all the rejection and all
Speaker 1: the like you know, like clawing my way to the middle. Um,
Speaker 1: I just had this epiphany where I was done. I
Speaker 1: just couldn't. I don't. My heart always breaks. I keep
Speaker 1: waiting for this industry to not break my heart and
Speaker 1: it just always does. And so then I was like well,
Speaker 1: I don't want to do this anymore. I don't want
Speaker 1: to put myself out there in that way. Now I'm
Speaker 1: getting money for Instagram, I don't have to do bad
Speaker 1: guest spots on TV shows. I don't like whatever. Let
Speaker 1: me just take a beat. And Tina Fey reached out
Speaker 1: and they said, we would love to develop something for you,
Speaker 1: and I said, you know, that offer is beyond flattering
Speaker 1: coming from someone who's truly my idol, Tina Um. But
Speaker 1: I don't know if I can do this anymore as
Speaker 1: an actor. It's just too much. I don't know what
Speaker 1: I want to do, but I don't know if I
Speaker 1: want to do that. And Eric Gurian, who works with
Speaker 1: her is one of the producers in her company, said
Speaker 1: said to me, well, you should figure something out because
Speaker 1: you're giving away all those great content for free, and
Speaker 1: holy cow, he's right. I was like, holy cow, he's right.
Speaker 1: And then the New Yorker article came out. And then
Speaker 1: a few weeks later, I was in Palm Springs, UM
Speaker 1: for my manager's fifty birthday and her birthday party was
Speaker 1: at the MERV Griffin estate. Me too, I love MERV Griffin.
Speaker 1: He's a little bit my patron saint right now, um,
Speaker 1: him and Joan rivers Um and I got a little
Speaker 1: high at this party and I which is legal now
Speaker 1: in California. So you really didn't do anything wrong? I know.
Speaker 1: Oh no, I'm like, no, it's it is, it's legal. I'm,
Speaker 1: by the way, a total rule follower, like I don't
Speaker 1: like to break rules. So yeah, only when it's legal. Um.
Speaker 1: And I turned to Mark and I said, oh, I
Speaker 1: know what I'm supposed to do. I'm supposed to be uh,
Speaker 1: a female voice in late night television. They've got all
Speaker 1: the dudes doing it. I need to do an entertainment
Speaker 1: late night show for me like that I would watch
Speaker 1: like for us and Stone, just basically what you're telling
Speaker 1: kind of that this is what it should be, like,
Speaker 1: this is the natural progression and what I should be
Speaker 1: doing next. And Mark laughed and was like, well, look,
Speaker 1: if that's what you want to do, you can do that.
Speaker 1: I'm sure. And I called Eric and I said this
Speaker 1: is what I want to do, and he's like, well,
Speaker 1: we don't really do that. We've never done that, but
Speaker 1: I mean, I'll see what they think about it. I
Speaker 1: was like sure. I went into I c M and
Speaker 1: met with all the agents there that handle um, this
Speaker 1: kind of thing, because it's a totally different I've never
Speaker 1: had an agent that does hosting or whatever. And they
Speaker 1: were very sort of optimistic. They were like, you've never
Speaker 1: done like I don't know if Yeah, well maybe we
Speaker 1: can partner you with a producer who has a lot
Speaker 1: of experience in this space, or we could do this,
Speaker 1: or try to set you up with some meetings with
Speaker 1: some show runners. And I was like, no, guys, you're
Speaker 1: not listening to me. I'm getting a late night talk show.
Speaker 1: And they're like, okay, we'll work on some things. Literally
Speaker 1: two weeks later, my phone rang and eric Aarrean said, so,
Speaker 1: I feel like Tina maybe just sold your show on
Speaker 1: the phone to E. I was like what. Then very
Speaker 1: shortly after that we went in and sat down with
Speaker 1: them and they said, yes, that was less than a
Speaker 1: year ago. So are you gonna have guests? Are you
Speaker 1: gonna So it's a half hour, it's ten pm on
Speaker 1: E four nights a week. It was really important to
Speaker 1: me to fight for a strip show, which is multiple days,
Speaker 1: so four or five nights or days a week. And
Speaker 1: I was so important because the guys get it and
Speaker 1: I just wanted what the men get, and I feel
Speaker 1: like a lot of times women are given one night
Speaker 1: a week as a consolation brides, and I want it.
Speaker 1: I wanted what they cat And I think it's important
Speaker 1: to re established. I mean, I think I love sam
Speaker 1: By and I do her show. She's so smart. But
Speaker 1: I also think there's something to be said for establishing
Speaker 1: kind of a regular, daily or nightly relationship with viewers
Speaker 1: that you know, they feel even more connected when they
Speaker 1: can spend that amount of time with you on a
Speaker 1: regular basis. Who would be your dream first guest? We're
Speaker 1: trying to figure out who our first guest is right now,
Speaker 1: and we I really wanted Julia Roberts to be our
Speaker 1: first guest, and our first show happens to be her birthday,
Speaker 1: so well, that's a good way for her to celebrate.
Speaker 1: I know that's what I said, but she I think
Speaker 1: she would rather be with her family. I don't know whoever.
Speaker 1: I think I would recommend having someone you feel really
Speaker 1: comfortable with and uh, which maybe Michelle Williams. What about Michelle?
Speaker 1: It's her daughter's birthday, Damn, everyone's everybody tell me a
Speaker 1: little bit. I think it's so great that you and
Speaker 1: Michelle have been so oose I guess since Dawson's Creek
Speaker 1: and um, you know, on a serious note, busy, I
Speaker 1: imagine you've had to help Michelle deal with some very
Speaker 1: difficult things. Specifically, obviously, I'm talking about the death of
Speaker 1: of Heath Ledger, and I'm just curious what you learned
Speaker 1: or what that experience was like for you as someone
Speaker 1: who is continues to be so close to Michelle. You know,
Speaker 1: it's interesting I write about this in the book Every
Speaker 1: person that I love the most, All of my best
Speaker 1: friends lost great loves when we were in our twenties.
Speaker 1: Everyone my best friend Emily b b first, her boyfriend
Speaker 1: died really unexpectedly and it was really traumatic and upsetting. Um.
Speaker 1: And then my roommate from college, Diana, her her best
Speaker 1: friend from childhood, passed away really one actively a year
Speaker 1: later when we were twenty three, and then we lost
Speaker 1: Heath several years later. There's nothing like especially losing people young,
Speaker 1: like there's just nothing that makes sense about it. And
Speaker 1: and as a friend, you know, being adjacent to the
Speaker 1: person who really is experiencing the loss, your job is
Speaker 1: to kind of, at least most moments, like put your
Speaker 1: own ship aside, and like be able to sit with
Speaker 1: them and get them cold wash cloths for their faces
Speaker 1: when they need it, and make everyone laugh when they
Speaker 1: need that, and like make the dinner reservation or write
Speaker 1: the email however you can support. That's what That's what
Speaker 1: your job is like. Mr. Rogers says, look to the helpers, right,
Speaker 1: the helpers. Yeah, you just have to you become a helper.
Speaker 1: And you know, I'm super obviously so protective Michelle, because
Speaker 1: of the public fascination with um not it's not just hard.
Speaker 1: I mean obviously, it's with him and and people's feelings
Speaker 1: of ownership over his his legacy or his and his death,
Speaker 1: you know, and what it meant to other people. And
Speaker 1: and I try to be really respectful of that too,
Speaker 1: because I understand it. I appreciate honestly how protective you are,
Speaker 1: even you know, years later, for for people's personal pain,
Speaker 1: because it's really not yours to necessarily discuss. So I
Speaker 1: have to say, it sounds like like you've been a
Speaker 1: very good friend in a lot of things, tough situations,
Speaker 1: and it it really matters. Just having lost my husband
Speaker 1: at an early age, I think about all the friends
Speaker 1: that helped me and you know, lately, I've been going
Speaker 1: through letters that I requested. My girls were just six
Speaker 1: and two when my husband died, and I asked every
Speaker 1: one who knew Jay, whether it was from growing up
Speaker 1: in Manhasset too, going to college, or practicing law with him,
Speaker 1: if they would write my girls a letter about him
Speaker 1: and about why they liked him or loved him, or
Speaker 1: cared about him, or how he affected their lives. And
Speaker 1: I've been going through those letters recently because my girls
Speaker 1: are all grown up now and they're so moving. Not
Speaker 1: only are they moving because they talk about Jay, but
Speaker 1: they're moving that people took the time. I mean, these
Speaker 1: are handwritten letters, you guys, that are in some cases
Speaker 1: ten pages long. Like the woman who said when Jay
Speaker 1: and I first went out, he went into her office
Speaker 1: and said, I just met the woman I'm going to marry.
Speaker 1: And you know, just even these little stories about him
Speaker 1: are so um. First of all, they're moving. It makes
Speaker 1: me cry, but it's also such a special thing for
Speaker 1: my girls. Yeah. I actually did that. Right after he
Speaker 1: passed away. I wrote a few letters of like all
Speaker 1: the memories of like everything that I wanted her to
Speaker 1: know about her parents when they were together and UM,
Speaker 1: she's going to really she's going to really cherish that.
Speaker 1: And if there and if there are other people, you know,
Speaker 1: it's not too late. If you know, it's something that
Speaker 1: will really help her. I think if she gets older
Speaker 1: and wants to know more about her father. Let's take
Speaker 1: a quick break and when we come back, we'll chat
Speaker 1: with Busy about her new book. That's right after this.
Speaker 1: And now back to our conversation with a very smart,
Speaker 1: very funny Busy Phillips. You talk a lot about very
Speaker 1: personal things in this book, Um, and I'm curious, particularly
Speaker 1: about a sexual assault that you experienced, and I'm curious
Speaker 1: how you weighed discussing that. Yeah, um M, I I
Speaker 1: feel like an alternate title in my head of this
Speaker 1: book is you don't get all this without the trauma.
Speaker 1: And there's something that This has been a really interesting
Speaker 1: week too, like super triggering and really tough for me. Um,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna try not to cry. I'm gonna start crying. Um.
Speaker 1: We should note that we're recording this discussion about Brett
Speaker 1: Kavanaugh and what he did or didn't do as a
Speaker 1: young man. Right, Well, I think that you know it's tricky,
Speaker 1: Um for me, I didn't think that the payoff of
Speaker 1: all the fun stuff means anything without the other stuff.
Speaker 1: For me, like the thing that consists dently has driven
Speaker 1: me has been these series of kind of like traumas
Speaker 1: in my early life and being sexually assaulted, having that
Speaker 1: power taken away from me at fourteen. The way that
Speaker 1: I dealt with it and the shame that I had,
Speaker 1: and the way I internalized it and made it make
Speaker 1: sense to me, I don't think is unique. I think
Speaker 1: that we're seeing now, of course, the last year, that
Speaker 1: women have experienced these kinds of assaults for a really
Speaker 1: long time, and the conversation about what consent is. I mean,
Speaker 1: this was ninety I was in the mid nineties. I mean,
Speaker 1: think about the messages I was being sent from the president.
Speaker 1: I love the Clintons my life, but like that he
Speaker 1: you know, stuck a cigar and this girl's vagina, but
Speaker 1: she was the slut, like she was defamed and like,
Speaker 1: you know, was breaking. What happened to Monica Lewinsky, Although
Speaker 1: I feel like she's come through this and and I
Speaker 1: really admire the work she does, but sorry to interrupt, no,
Speaker 1: but I mean it's the same thing that's happening right now.
Speaker 1: And why I just started crying because I think about
Speaker 1: the message that this pret Kavanaugh thing is sending girls
Speaker 1: still fucking thirty years ago he was a teenager. What
Speaker 1: maybe he what he didn't wasn't even that bad. He
Speaker 1: didn't even rape for you know whatever people are saying.
Speaker 1: I mean the things that people said on my Instagram
Speaker 1: when I posted in support of um DR for Dr Ford, Yeah,
Speaker 1: thank you. There was this amazing CNN story, I don't
Speaker 1: know if you saw it, a focus group of some
Speaker 1: Republican and conservative women and one of them said, actually
Speaker 1: said on TV, what boy hasn't done this? And it
Speaker 1: triggered the whole movement on social media right of men
Speaker 1: saying I didn't do this? And I feel like this
Speaker 1: is locker room talk all over there. They're trying to
Speaker 1: normalize it by saying everybody does it. Well, everybody doesn't
Speaker 1: do it, but it's a worthy conversation to have, Yes,
Speaker 1: what man hasn't done this? I know, like I was
Speaker 1: even last week in the room. I mean, probably shouldn't
Speaker 1: even say this out loud us just like room stuff,
Speaker 1: but I was like, truly, at this point, when we
Speaker 1: introduce our guests, we can if it's a woman we
Speaker 1: can literally say has probably been a victim of sexual assault,
Speaker 1: please welcome out like it's fucking bonkers and it has
Speaker 1: to stop. And I just, you know, my heart breaks
Speaker 1: because I have little girls, but my heart breaks for
Speaker 1: these boys that are being raised in thinking into thinking
Speaker 1: that this is okay, that this is Do you think
Speaker 1: that something can be done? Though, Busy? I mean, I
Speaker 1: think a lot about this about, you know, how we
Speaker 1: are culturally conditioning boys and girls, and how we can
Speaker 1: do it differently. And I mean, I think this movement
Speaker 1: will really obviously have a massive impact on I hope,
Speaker 1: I hope I pray on how boys and girls and
Speaker 1: men and women relate to each other and the kind
Speaker 1: of behavior that they engage in. But you know, it
Speaker 1: feels like there has to be more than that. I mean,
Speaker 1: I think we need to help our boys become responsible
Speaker 1: and know, in no uncertain terms sort of the rules
Speaker 1: of behavior obviously taught primarily by parents, but also influenced
Speaker 1: heavily by peers and girls. And I've noticed that my
Speaker 1: daughters have a very different attitude about this, of course
Speaker 1: than I did, or what I was kind of brought
Speaker 1: up to believe was just tolerated, right, and just kind
Speaker 1: of got an eye roll or oh god, that's gross.
Speaker 1: But yeah, of course, and you know they have a
Speaker 1: very different attitude. Of course I do as well now,
Speaker 1: but um, you know, you're kind of a product of
Speaker 1: your environment and the culture that you exist in. Do
Speaker 1: you do you think this is a very long winded
Speaker 1: way of asking, do you think it is changing already
Speaker 1: and will change even more? I mean, that's my hope. Certainly.
Speaker 1: I also want my daughters to understand like sex as
Speaker 1: pleasure and not have the message that it's about servicing
Speaker 1: a man. I was thinking about how I never had
Speaker 1: growing up. I guess I just sex was very shameful
Speaker 1: or like we didn't talk about it. And I guess
Speaker 1: I always just from media from movies and TV, just
Speaker 1: thought it was like about whatever the guy wanted and
Speaker 1: not and that the girl was just like you're just
Speaker 1: sort of there, You're just like the thing that it
Speaker 1: happens to. Well, maybe that's what happens when guys right
Speaker 1: the shows, Guys direct the shows, guys produced the show
Speaker 1: and put them on the air. You know, I started
Speaker 1: writing in a book, oh a year and a half ago,
Speaker 1: and it was before the Harvey Weinstein allegations came to light,
Speaker 1: and then it all sort of felt like it's been
Speaker 1: you know, building and but to me, I felt like
Speaker 1: when Donald Trump became elected president, it was like already
Speaker 1: time to get rid of the shame of this thing
Speaker 1: and to like own it in a way my own
Speaker 1: personal thing. Let me ask you about that, because you
Speaker 1: were in the Javit Center. I was in the Javits
Speaker 1: Center on election when the glass ceiling was supposed to
Speaker 1: break once and for all, and Hillary Clinton was supposed
Speaker 1: to be the first female president. And I think there
Speaker 1: are really two theories about the aftermath of that. One is,
Speaker 1: if Hillary hadn't lost the whole me two times up,
Speaker 1: women's rights movement wouldn't have come to the four and
Speaker 1: overtaken the culture in the way that they have. Um
Speaker 1: maybe the other theory, the other theory, the more pessimistic theory, is,
Speaker 1: you know, Trump said about the worst stuff you could
Speaker 1: possibly say. He did a lot of terrible stuff to women,
Speaker 1: and he got away with it. And the fact that
Speaker 1: he's president sends a message to boys and girls that
Speaker 1: you can get away with it. How do you think
Speaker 1: about that. I tend toward the ladder, and that was
Speaker 1: what was really hard for me to reconcile and why
Speaker 1: it was so heartbreaking for me, and why I wrote
Speaker 1: in the book when Mark, my husband said, he's not
Speaker 1: gonna be that bad, I mean, he's not gonna like
Speaker 1: They're not gonna like let him funk up the country busy,
Speaker 1: It'll be fine. The Republicans will let him suk up
Speaker 1: the country. By the way, Mark was wrong. But um,
Speaker 1: and I just looked at my husband for the first time.
Speaker 1: My husband, who is a true ally, a feminist and uh,
Speaker 1: is a man who you know, can say with confidence,
Speaker 1: but I've never done that, you know, like we were
Speaker 1: just saying, Um, I looked at him for the first
Speaker 1: time and I was like, Oh, you really don't get it.
Speaker 1: The message that I've just been given is that the
Speaker 1: majority of the country doesn't fucking care about me. It
Speaker 1: doesn't care about my experience, and that you can get
Speaker 1: away with anything if you've got enough money and power
Speaker 1: and you're white and your man. But do you think
Speaker 1: now that now people are I think people were not
Speaker 1: literally woke to any of that at the time of
Speaker 1: the election, and I feel like people are are being educated,
Speaker 1: enlightened and have galvanized and are seeing things in a
Speaker 1: in a very different way. I think that, you know
Speaker 1: what I would hope will happen too busy is just
Speaker 1: more conversations and less anger and more sort of I
Speaker 1: believe me, I understand the anger. I'm not saying that,
Speaker 1: but a way that we can all sort of try
Speaker 1: to help people see things in a way that some
Speaker 1: people aren't maliciously blind, They're just not evolved. Oh. Do
Speaker 1: you know what's interesting is that I just saw Deray
Speaker 1: McKesson speak the other night at a book party and
Speaker 1: he said something that really I mean, he said so
Speaker 1: many things that really resonate with me, but um, the
Speaker 1: thing that he said is, uh, you know a lot
Speaker 1: of times people are saying, oh, you're you're preaching to
Speaker 1: the choir, and his feeling about it is, you know,
Speaker 1: have you ever been in a choir. It takes a
Speaker 1: lot of work and organization and everybody needs to and
Speaker 1: everyone needs to sing their own part and know how
Speaker 1: to do the harmony. So I'm happy to to preach
Speaker 1: to the choir because the choir needs work, Like this
Speaker 1: choir needs work, and we have enough people to make
Speaker 1: a really beautiful fucking song. But we're not singing the
Speaker 1: same melodies right now. People are off on their own harmonies, Like,
Speaker 1: we need to get the choir together. A lot of
Speaker 1: people in the choir don't even vote. A lot of
Speaker 1: people in the choir, yeah, are like what where where?
Speaker 1: Where are we meeting? Like what what time is rehearsal?
Speaker 1: I was there at two? Like, you know, we need
Speaker 1: to get the choir together. I think that there are
Speaker 1: certain things that fundamentally I will never agree with, like
Speaker 1: people across the aisle on there are certain people. I look,
Speaker 1: I've spent a lot of time in the South. I've
Speaker 1: done to TV shows there and I love it, and
Speaker 1: I have talked to people and become friends with people.
Speaker 1: Are like, oh, we really will never come to terms
Speaker 1: on this issue. Um, a woman's right to choose as
Speaker 1: one of them. You know, you fundamentally believe this thing.
Speaker 1: And I found and I'm not going to change that,
Speaker 1: like you're I'm not going to But this idea about
Speaker 1: preaching to acquire and and coming together to make the
Speaker 1: best version. I mean, and I think it is voting.
Speaker 1: But I also think that what's happening now, like people
Speaker 1: aren't going to show up to vote because you're trying
Speaker 1: to make them feel bad about the fact that they're
Speaker 1: not voting. They're going to show up to vote when
Speaker 1: they feel compelled that they need to. They want to
Speaker 1: be a part of change. I feel like people are apathetic,
Speaker 1: but I I do feel I feel very inspired and
Speaker 1: optimistic about this younger generation that I think really wants
Speaker 1: to take ownership of a lot of the problems that
Speaker 1: are facing this country and realize that they can't wait
Speaker 1: for their government to fix it, and they can't wait
Speaker 1: for companies necessarily to fix it or other institutions that
Speaker 1: they have to be part of the solution. And I
Speaker 1: don't know, I feel that I hope that what I'm
Speaker 1: what I'm feeling will be borne out and participation not
Speaker 1: only in the mid terms but in the next election.
Speaker 1: But I do feel very I don't know, I'm very
Speaker 1: hopeful about the future. I'm hopeful too, and I think
Speaker 1: that but even Katie I did this thing. My friend
Speaker 1: ed Drosi as the lead singer of an indie band
Speaker 1: called Grizzly Bear, and he was talking to a friend
Speaker 1: of his who's a school teacher, and he was the
Speaker 1: teacher was saying, oh, I spent seven hundred dollars this
Speaker 1: week on school supplies for my kids. And I haven't
Speaker 1: even gotten my paycheck yet, and I'm like, you know,
Speaker 1: in the red whatever. And so Ed has a following
Speaker 1: on Instagram, so he did this thing. He asked teachers
Speaker 1: who needed school supplies to d m him with an
Speaker 1: Amazon wish list and a picture. And for ten days
Speaker 1: he did this ten featured teachers Amazon wish list, and
Speaker 1: he asked me if I would do it, and I
Speaker 1: was like, yeah, that seems like an interesting use of
Speaker 1: my Instagram and time. And I picked ten teachers posted
Speaker 1: their Amazon wish lists. They were like sold out so quickly.
Speaker 1: It's such an incredible, like grassroots way to help. I
Speaker 1: wanted to do that now too, but I was just like,
Speaker 1: it was so inspiring to me because I think that people.
Speaker 1: I think people want to help. I think people want
Speaker 1: to do the right thing and they want to support,
Speaker 1: and sometimes they get overwhelmed. And especially WET I got
Speaker 1: a lot of art teachers because a lot of times
Speaker 1: teachers well those the programs are cut, their programs are
Speaker 1: cut so much um. But there was one art teacher
Speaker 1: who works three jobs and spends over four thousand dollars
Speaker 1: of her own money every year. Scandal. I mean, it's
Speaker 1: nice when people can help out, but we should teachers
Speaker 1: are underpaid and under respect as a totally unbelievable that
Speaker 1: in this position unbelievable. It is appalling and but at
Speaker 1: the same time, until we can figure it out in
Speaker 1: sort of a bigger picture maybe like a grassroots way
Speaker 1: of supporting and helping, and it's the way to go.
Speaker 1: And also, you know, make sure that you think about
Speaker 1: that when you vote. You know, these single issue voters,
Speaker 1: I don't think you should be a necessarily single issue,
Speaker 1: but you should say what matters to me and how
Speaker 1: are these candidates fulfilling you know, my goals to support
Speaker 1: certain causes, And I think education is often overlooked when
Speaker 1: it comes to, you know, making a decision at the poll. Anyway,
Speaker 1: we've taken way too much time. But busy, good luck
Speaker 1: with everything. It's been so fun talking to you. I
Speaker 1: wish you all the success in the world, you know,
Speaker 1: and it's been so fun talking to you. It's been
Speaker 1: really great. Thank you so much for doing this has
Speaker 1: been so much fun. So folks, that's a wrap. A
Speaker 1: big thank you to our producer Emma Morgan Stern, our
Speaker 1: associate producer Nora Richie, and our audio engineer extraordinaire Jared O'Connell.
Speaker 1: Special thanks to the great Gianna Palmer for her help
Speaker 1: on this one, and thanks also to Julian Nicholson at
Speaker 1: Invisible Studios for engineering my side of the conversation from
Speaker 1: l A today. Also a big shout out as always
Speaker 1: to my assistant Beth Dems and to Julia Lewis, who
Speaker 1: is my social media guru. Mark Phillips wrote our theme music.
Speaker 1: You can find Brian on Twitter he's at Goldsmith b
Speaker 1: and you can find me posting incessantly and hilariously. I
Speaker 1: might add on Instagrams to raise under what else? How original?
Speaker 1: Katie Correct. You don't want to miss those, and remember
Speaker 1: the lines are always open over at comments at correct
Speaker 1: podcast dot com. We'd really love to hear your questions, feedback,
Speaker 1: guest ideas, and in particular this time, any thoughts or
Speaker 1: questions you have about the upcoming mid term elections. We're
Speaker 1: going to do an episode all about understanding the mid terms,
Speaker 1: or you can leave us a voicemail on those topics
Speaker 1: at nine to nine, two to four, four, six, three
Speaker 1: seven and we may very well. Play it on the show.
Speaker 1: Thanks as always for listening, and we'll talk to you
Speaker 1: next week. Bye.