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Speaker 1: You're listening to Facing Evil, a production of iHeartRadio and

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Speaker 1: Tenderfoot TV. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast

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Speaker 1: are solely those of the individuals participating in the show

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Speaker 1: and do not represent those of iHeartRadio or Tenderfoot TV.

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Speaker 1: This podcast contains subject matter which may not be suitable

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Speaker 1: for everyone. Listener discretion is advised. Today, we're picking up

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Speaker 1: right where we left off on the previous episode. We're

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Speaker 1: joined by Zach Levitt, producer and creator of the podcast

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Speaker 1: Root of Evil. Last episode, we revealed what was left

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Speaker 1: on the cutting room floor of Root of Evil, including

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Speaker 1: new information about the true relationship between George Hodell and

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Speaker 1: Fauna Hodel. We continue that conversation now.

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Speaker 2: So we now know for a fact that George Hodell

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Speaker 2: was not our mother's father, not the father.

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Speaker 3: Nope.

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Speaker 2: But wait for it, y'all. Wait for it, y'all. We

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Speaker 2: know who her father is.

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Speaker 3: We knew that George Hodel was not our mother's father

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Speaker 3: in the year twenty eighteen. Yes, so, mister Zach Levitt,

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Speaker 3: can you tell us and our listeners? Of course we know,

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Speaker 3: but tell our listeners why that fact was not in

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Speaker 3: Root of Evil.

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Speaker 4: At the time. I was so upset about it not

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Speaker 4: being in the podcast, and I wanted an opportunity to

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Speaker 4: talk about it, and it was something that I thought

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Speaker 4: about day and night for months and months and months.

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Speaker 4: I was devastated, and I can use that word. I

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Speaker 4: was devastated, absolutely, And I don't want to get ahead

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Speaker 4: of the story, but I just I'm going to circle

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Speaker 4: back in a second. But my point is that I

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Speaker 4: wanted to talk about it so badly, even though I

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Speaker 4: wasn't quite sure how to. And we spoke about it many,

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Speaker 4: many times, and I could have come out on Twitter

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Speaker 4: somewhere and said we found the results. George is not

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Speaker 4: the father, but it wasn't my story to tell. And

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Speaker 4: I knew that whoever revealed this news, it couldn't be

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Speaker 4: me because I'm not a member of the family. You know,

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Speaker 4: it was about your mother, so it was going to

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Speaker 4: be the two of you that would reveal it. And

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Speaker 4: I think Steve may have blogged something about it on

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Speaker 4: his website. I can't I can't remember, but yes, So

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Speaker 4: time went on and I saw the reaction that the

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Speaker 4: audience had to the show, and you know, sometimes you

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Speaker 4: don't want to fuck with that, yeah, right, And so

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Speaker 4: I sort of said to myself, Okay, people love the show.

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Speaker 4: Would it have been a better ending perhaps? Would it

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Speaker 4: have provided closure to the family, Yes, yes, ye. Would

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Speaker 4: it have prevented some possible bad feelings after the fact

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Speaker 4: of well why didn't it get used? Absolutely? But you know,

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Speaker 4: the audience doesn't know what they.

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Speaker 5: Don't know, right, right, right.

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Speaker 4: So you're always cutting things out. You're always always cutting

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Speaker 4: things out of a story. There's this term don't kill

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Speaker 4: don't throw the baby out with the bathwater, right, and

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Speaker 4: and sometimes it's a good thing. If you're losing amazing

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Speaker 4: moments from a show, it can be a good thing

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Speaker 4: because that means that, you know, you got to cut

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Speaker 4: it down for clarity or whatever the case may be.

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Speaker 4: And whatever's left is the really good stuff. And so

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Speaker 4: I said to myself, Okay, people have responded, they love

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Speaker 4: the show. The great stuff is in there. Move on

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Speaker 4: with your life, which it took me a while. We know, yes,

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Speaker 4: we do know, we know now why wasn't it in there?

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Speaker 2: Tell us this is the question.

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Speaker 4: As everybody knows. And we began talking about making the

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Speaker 4: show and what led to making the show, that this

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Speaker 4: was the sister podcast or the shoulder content.

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Speaker 5: Whatever, companion podcast.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, companion podcast to the TNT show I Am the Knight,

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Speaker 4: which was made by Patty Jenkins, who is an incredible

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Speaker 4: director who directed Wonder Woman and Monster Right. Yeah, and

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Speaker 4: so I said, holy shit, Okay, I'm going to be

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Speaker 4: working on a podcast where you know, the person putting

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Speaker 4: the show together is a massive director and her husband.

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Speaker 4: Pretty cool.

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Speaker 5: Pretty cool.

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Speaker 4: And of course going back to this idea of my

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Speaker 4: first call with Sam when he mentioned, hey, the girls

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Speaker 4: have these profiles of their DNA and Fauna's DNA on

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Speaker 4: twenty three and meter. But I told him, don't go

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Speaker 4: forward with anything until you talk to Zach and he

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Speaker 4: starts doing the podcast. Now fast forward to eight months

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Speaker 4: later whatever it was, where I now have the results

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Speaker 4: of that DNA test that they didn't really know about.

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Speaker 4: They were in the same boat as I was with

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Speaker 4: not really understanding it and okay, twenty three ae meters,

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Speaker 4: what is it going to tell you? No, we took

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Speaker 4: it an extra step further. We put it on this

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Speaker 4: other website which revealed whether Fauna was a product of

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Speaker 4: incest unbeknownst to anybody. You know, this is just me

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Speaker 4: making the story that I wanted to make. We have

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Speaker 4: those results, and I was given to TNT's credit and

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Speaker 4: everybody else's credit carte blanche to make the story that

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Speaker 4: I wanted to make, and we did that unbeknownst to them.

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Speaker 4: We found the results and we recorded those results. And

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Speaker 4: once the people putting together I Am the Knight heard that,

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Speaker 4: I think it became an issue. Well I shouldn't say

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Speaker 4: I think it became an issue because the podcast was

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Speaker 4: being released around the same time as the TV show, right,

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Speaker 4: sister content companion podcast whatever. And that question of who

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Speaker 4: Fauna's father was, whether it was George or not, is

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Speaker 4: a theme in the I Am the Night.

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Speaker 3: Show, Yeah, which is inspired loosely inspired by Mom's life,

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Speaker 3: but yeah.

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Speaker 4: Ours was the true story the documentary, So that theme

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Speaker 4: of who Fauna's father was was a George is and

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Speaker 4: I don't remember the show, but it certainly comes up

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Speaker 4: and is sort of left unanswered.

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Speaker 5: But that's where it leaves you thinking that George's Mom's father.

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Speaker 2: That's where it ends. We should say yeah.

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Speaker 4: Exactly, which is certainly more interesting and goes along with

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Speaker 4: the crazy story and yeah, but we have the answer, right,

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Speaker 4: We actually have the answer now, Yeah, and we're going

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Speaker 4: to put it out there and everybody's going to hear it,

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Speaker 4: and we're going to have some closure for the actual

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Speaker 4: family that inspired this story. And that was always my motivation.

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Speaker 4: It had nothing to do and I say this in

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Speaker 4: all sincerity. For me, it was like, I knew it

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Speaker 4: would be an interesting moment for the audience, but it

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Speaker 4: was about providing closure to all of you who were

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Speaker 4: so generous with your time and emotions and lives and

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Speaker 4: all these things. And I wanted to give that to

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Speaker 4: all of you. I really wanted to, and we did,

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Speaker 4: and we gave you that moment. And then I hear

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Speaker 4: you need to take that out of the end of

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Speaker 4: the show. I'm like, wait, what you have to take

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Speaker 4: that out of the end of the show. It's going

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Speaker 4: to and these are my words, this is not anybody

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Speaker 4: else's words. It's going to potentially upcut the fictionalized version

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Speaker 4: because we put it out there that there is no answer,

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Speaker 4: and now if there is an answer, it's going to

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Speaker 4: upcut it. And so when I heard that, I was floridite.

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Speaker 4: So I sent the results. I sent all of this

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Speaker 4: other evidence that I had gathered that repts. Yeah, all

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Speaker 4: the receipts along the way there were articles written saying

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Speaker 4: that George was not the father, and you know, nobody

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Speaker 4: had had the proof that we had, but it had

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Speaker 4: been speculated on for for years. And if anything, this

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Speaker 4: is going to help the show, right, Like here, here

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Speaker 4: was my sort of pitch. You know, we've we've agreed

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Speaker 4: to tell this nonfiction this this this documentary story. We

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Speaker 4: have it. There's this other story that is slightly you know,

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Speaker 4: leaves things sort of out there in the ether. Why

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Speaker 4: can't they both live together? And really the story is okay,

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Speaker 4: we picked up where I Am the Night left off, right.

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Speaker 4: Patty did tell me in in that conversation, you know,

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Speaker 4: talk about this, tell tell this story. It just wasn't

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Speaker 4: the right time for the show. And in fact, the

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Speaker 4: first time I heard about DNA was from the showrunner.

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Speaker 5: So you were very confused.

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Speaker 4: Right, My sort of thought was, isn't this a great story? Like,

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Speaker 4: isn't this a good story? We're providing the family closure.

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Speaker 4: It can be both, it can be here's the real story,

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Speaker 4: here's the fictionalized story. They're both great. If they love

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Speaker 4: the limited series I Am the Night, that will drive

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Speaker 4: them to the podcast to hear more or vice versa.

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Speaker 4: If they love Root of Evil. They'll go to the

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Speaker 4: TV show and watch the show, and can't this moment live,

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Speaker 4: you know, for the sake of the family members and

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Speaker 4: the audience and all of that. And to my utter disappointment,

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Speaker 4: the answer was no. And so I do have to

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Speaker 4: say this, and I have to reiterate this. The process

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Speaker 4: of working with TNT and with everybody else was amazing.

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Speaker 4: From start to finish. They were hands off. They let

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Speaker 4: me tell the story, they were hearing rough cuts. They

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Speaker 4: knew how good it was going to be, or I

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Speaker 4: shouldn't say that. They knew that it had the potential

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Speaker 4: to be, to be interesting, to be big, and they

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Speaker 4: they let me be. But there was this one moment

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Speaker 4: where I think Patty decided that, you know, we don't

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Speaker 4: want to have that on. It's it's not going to

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Speaker 4: serve the show. I am the Knight in a meaningful way.

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Speaker 4: And and in her defense, I totally get that I

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Speaker 4: would have done the exact same thing if it were

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Speaker 4: my show, because you don't want anything to take away

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Speaker 4: from your show. And of course they're thinking from the

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Speaker 4: very beginning, was you know this podcast?

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Speaker 3: Like they had no idea?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, oh nobody did. And I didn't have any idea,

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Speaker 4: but but they, you know, it was, Okay, we're gonna

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Speaker 4: we're gonna drive an audience to the TV show. And

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Speaker 4: if we're going to do that, why would we want

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Speaker 4: the listeners of Root of Evil to have this information

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Speaker 4: in their minds as they're watching the TV show. It

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Speaker 4: will their interpretation of the story for the TV show

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Speaker 4: in a negative way. And I totally get that. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: I totally get that, especially from a director's perspective, that

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Speaker 4: is the last problem you want. So I don't fault

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Speaker 4: Patty or Sam or anybody in any way, shape or form.

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Speaker 4: They did what was right for their show, which there

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Speaker 4: would be no podcast if it weren't for that TV show.

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Speaker 4: So I think that that is a really important point

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Speaker 4: to make. And I'm not you know, just trying to

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Speaker 4: be you know, magnanimous in any way like that. That

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Speaker 4: is truly how I feel like if I were if

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Speaker 4: the shoe were on the other foot, I would have

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Speaker 4: probably done the exact same thing, because you don't want

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Speaker 4: anything messing with your story, and it could have messed

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Speaker 4: with the story. Now that being said, it fucked me up,

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Speaker 4: I know, yes, I know, because not only did it

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Speaker 4: pull the teeth out of this story that I had

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Speaker 4: built up until that point, and what the hell am

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Speaker 4: I going to do? And now it's going to fall flat.

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Speaker 4: It's just going to be this, you know, moment with

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Speaker 4: everybody together and emoting. We don't have any real information

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Speaker 4: as far as George Hode, I mean, George Hodell is

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Speaker 4: sort of, you know, this looming figure in the entire series. Yes,

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Speaker 4: so not only can we bring the family together, but

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Speaker 4: we can answer this question and really just tie up

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Speaker 4: every loose end in this moment. And I had to

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Speaker 4: convince myself that Shita life is loose. Ends don't always

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Speaker 4: get tied up. They just sort of stay loose and

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Speaker 4: you got to live with it. But it really really

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Speaker 4: messed me up for a while as far as feeling

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Speaker 4: so upset that that wasn't going to be there. But

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Speaker 4: more so than anything, it was telling the family I

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Speaker 4: can't put this.

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Speaker 5: In yeah, that your hands are tied, I.

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Speaker 4: Think, sort of explaining that this is not my decision.

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Speaker 4: Like I fought for this. I had the DNA expert

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Speaker 4: who I spoke to initially on the phone when we

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Speaker 4: were talking with TNT and with the creators of I

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Speaker 4: Am the Night. I had the DNA expert on to

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Speaker 4: help make this case. Yeah, yeah, it wasn't to be

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Speaker 4: And so I had to live with it. And it sucked.

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Speaker 4: And I know it sucked even way more for you

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Speaker 4: guys and for Steve and and love, peace and joy

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Speaker 4: and fun of two and and uh, it sucked for

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Speaker 4: everybody to not be able to have some closure to

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Speaker 4: to that piece of the story, which I think they

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Speaker 4: all felt. You know, it was going to be negative.

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Speaker 4: George wasn't the father, but to be able to.

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Speaker 5: Tell the public definitively tie that up, definitively to the public, no,

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Speaker 5: he's not the father.

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Speaker 4: To not be able to have that that stuck with me,

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Speaker 4: I would say for more than a year. I couldn't

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Speaker 4: get over that.

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Speaker 5: You're just being real.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it was truly a betrayal, you know, to the family.

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Speaker 2: That's what we felt. And when we got that call

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Speaker 2: from Patty, you know, saying that it wasn't going to

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Speaker 2: be in I mean, we were devastated, but we were

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Speaker 2: put in the middle, you know what I mean, And

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Speaker 2: we said what we had to say because we wanted

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Speaker 2: that in rud of evil, like you said, it was

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Speaker 2: so powerful, it was so profound and it was the

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Speaker 2: perfect ending to the true story. But like I told you,

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Speaker 2: I'll never forget sitting in the car when we were

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Speaker 2: going to the iHeartRadio Podcast Awards. It was the beginning

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Speaker 2: of twenty twenty in January. Yeah, and I remember saying

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Speaker 2: to you that Rude of Evil was your baby. I

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Speaker 2: Am the Knight was Patty's baby. And you know, we're

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Speaker 2: trying to make the both of you happy because there's

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Speaker 2: that loyalty right to Patty, who brought Mom's you know

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Speaker 2: movie to Fruition, you know, her lifelong dream.

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Speaker 4: Right. I wouldn't have been making this podcast without her. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: absolutely right right.

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Speaker 3: I'll never forget having that conversation with Patty and with Sam.

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Speaker 3: And of course after we fought for it and we

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Speaker 3: realized we were losing the battle, Patty did tell us

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Speaker 3: because she's you know, become Mohamma to us over the years,

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Speaker 3: she told us, she said, you girls, this is your story.

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Speaker 3: You can tell this story however you want to tell it,

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Speaker 3: just not now. So that's why we're here today. That's

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Speaker 3: why it's so apropos that we're telling the world with you, Zach,

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Speaker 3: because we've even looking for a vehicle and trying to

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Speaker 3: figure out how we were going to tell the world.

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Speaker 3: One George Hodel is not our mother Fano Hodel's father,

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Speaker 3: He's only her grandfather. And two we get to reveal

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Speaker 3: to the world today who are Mom's biological father really was.

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Speaker 3: And you were the one that was supposed to be

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Speaker 3: here with Vett and I to tell the world.

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Speaker 2: That absolutely and full circle, things happen the way they're

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Speaker 2: supposed to happen. I truly believe that. And like Russia

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Speaker 2: just said, you know, we started with you and we're

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Speaker 2: going to end with you by sharing this, you know,

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Speaker 2: this discovery that we've been wanting to know for so long.

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Speaker 3: So with all of that being said, take you back right,

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Speaker 3: So all of us before Mom died from breast cancer

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Speaker 3: in September of twenty seventeen, our uncle Joy gifted all

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Speaker 3: of us I swear twenty three and me needs to

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Speaker 3: sponsor this episod, but gifted us all twenty three and

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Speaker 3: meters DNA kids. So we all did it, including our mom,

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Speaker 3: And that is how we got all of that, right,

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Speaker 3: That's how we got That's how we figured out that

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Speaker 3: George was not her father. Of course we didn't find

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Speaker 3: that out till after Mom died. But fast forward, so

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Speaker 3: twenty eighteen is when we all found out that George

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Speaker 3: was not Mom's father. Fast forward to twenty twenty two.

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Speaker 3: Both Vet and I get an alert, Hey, you have

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Speaker 3: a new DNA relative, which that happens all the time,

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Speaker 3: because there's you know, five thousand.

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Speaker 5: Removed cousins whatever.

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Speaker 3: We've been looking since twenty seventeen for anyone that he

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Speaker 3: Vet and I are related to that are not related

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Speaker 3: to the Hodels. We're talking because Peace and Joy did

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Speaker 3: their DNA as well as Steve and F two. Love

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Speaker 3: is the only one that didn't do it on that side.

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Speaker 3: And so someone came up and it came up as

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Speaker 3: like a close DNA relative. And this is August of

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Speaker 3: twenty two two, right before we're going to leave for

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Speaker 3: podcast movement. Our lives are changing, Facing Evil had just launched.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm sitting in the beauty salon getting my hair

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Speaker 2: done and Rash just sends me this message and I

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Speaker 2: was like, holy shit, it was screenshots.

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Speaker 3: And when I sent her the screenshot, I'm like, there's

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Speaker 3: this guy named Mario Delo Sada who is a relative

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Speaker 3: on Mom's side. All these things and I didn't realize

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Speaker 3: when I sent her the screenshot because I logged in

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Speaker 3: because I still have moms log in for her twenty

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Speaker 3: three and meters. I logged in his mom after I

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Speaker 3: sent her the screenshot. Took screen quick screenshots from moms

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Speaker 3: because you can see more when it's your own profile.

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Speaker 3: And it's like, I was Fana Hodel in that moment,

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Speaker 3: and it said Fana Hodel's half sibling and not related

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Speaker 3: to any of the Hodels, so all the Hodels are

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Speaker 3: half siblings, so that gets even more complicated.

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Speaker 5: But I was like, what right.

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Speaker 3: It has no photo, just has a name and it

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Speaker 3: says born nineteen fifty eight Mario del Sada, And I'm like.

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Speaker 5: Oh my god, Oh my god, oh my god.

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Speaker 3: We're literally just about to get on a plane to

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Speaker 3: go to Dallas, Texas to go to podcast movement.

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Speaker 5: And I did a deep dive.

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Speaker 3: I googled every Mario de Losada you could find, and

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Speaker 3: within about twenty minutes I found him on Facebook. And

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Speaker 3: you know, he's gonna think I'm crazy by messaging him

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Speaker 3: and being like, hey, you know I think you're related

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Speaker 3: to us anyway, Long rabbit hole down. Within about an

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Speaker 3: hour and a half, of us finding that original thing.

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Speaker 3: I sent messages to Mario on Instagram, Facebook, twenty three

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Speaker 3: and meters and then we got a message back from

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Speaker 3: his sister named Judy de Losada.

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Speaker 2: But in that hour and a half, you can imagine,

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Speaker 2: you know, the anxiety, the surrealness, the like like you're

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00:19:48,280 --> 00:19:50,480
Speaker 2: on your show exactly exactly.

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Speaker 3: And Duty messaged back and she said, I'm so sorry.

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Speaker 3: Mario is on a flight, you know, to Atlanta, and they.

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Speaker 5: All live in Canada. So I was like, yeah, there's

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Speaker 5: no way.

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Speaker 3: I'm like, I don't Annie was too pretty, and she's like, yep,

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Speaker 3: that's him.

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Speaker 5: He was born in nineteen fifty eight.

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Speaker 3: And before she told me our grandfather's name, I had

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Speaker 3: found it and I was.

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Speaker 5: Like, oh my god, I think it's Gus de Losada.

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Speaker 5: I think it's Gus de Losada. And I broke down

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Speaker 5: in tears. You've it.

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Speaker 3: Broke down in tears, and I told Judy, I said,

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Speaker 3: I know you're going to google us as soon as

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Speaker 3: you see all these messages. Please don't freak out, but

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00:20:25,040 --> 00:20:30,320
Speaker 3: you and Mario have just proven that mom one hundred

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Speaker 3: million percent, that Mom was not the product of incest.

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Speaker 5: By finding Mario and.

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Speaker 2: In that moment, like for me, I was sitting in

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Speaker 2: the you know, in the in the salon, it felt

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00:20:42,640 --> 00:20:48,199
Speaker 2: like the gates of heaven like just opened, and I

358
00:20:48,240 --> 00:20:52,960
Speaker 2: could see my mom's face like just smiling with the biggest,

359
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Speaker 2: brightest smile and such.

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Speaker 4: A relief I can't even imagine.

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Speaker 2: I was like Mom, I was like, Mama, we did it.

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Speaker 2: We know, we know that fucker wasn't your dad. You

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00:21:05,119 --> 00:21:08,280
Speaker 2: know what I mean, because you know, when you think

364
00:21:08,320 --> 00:21:11,880
Speaker 2: about it, you know, Mom searched her whole life right

365
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Speaker 2: for her mother. She never puts that emphasis on finding

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Speaker 2: her father because she was afraid of what she might

367
00:21:19,680 --> 00:21:24,960
Speaker 2: find right exactly. So to get this news and to

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00:21:25,040 --> 00:21:31,080
Speaker 2: see these pictures in that moment was extraordinary and a

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Speaker 2: what a gift.

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Speaker 3: And we have to tell the world so that they know.

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Speaker 3: Fana Hodel's father's name was august oracee Manuel Delo Saba,

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Speaker 3: and he was born in nineteen twenty seven and sadly

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Speaker 3: died in nineteen eighty. He had three children after Mom,

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Speaker 3: one child before her. Actually, while we were at Podcast Movement,

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Speaker 3: we face timed with them. We spoke with all of them,

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Speaker 3: and they're all beautiful, gorgeous amazing souls.

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Speaker 4: That's so cool.

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00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:11,960
Speaker 2: I have to tell one story too, because you know

379
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Speaker 2: when we were speaking to the whole family, when we

380
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Speaker 2: finally got on a video chat with the whole family,

381
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Speaker 2: and I said, so, Mario, this is one of the

382
00:22:22,080 --> 00:22:24,879
Speaker 2: you know, one of the brothers, Our's off brother, our uncle.

383
00:22:25,320 --> 00:22:27,960
Speaker 2: I said, so, why now, why did you decide to

384
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Speaker 2: go on twenty three and me now? And he goes, well,

385
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Speaker 2: it was on.

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Speaker 5: Sale on Amazon primeday, right, it.

387
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Speaker 2: Was ninety nine random.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And I was like, thank you, thank you, thank you.

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00:22:45,320 --> 00:22:45,560
Speaker 1: Yeah.

392
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Speaker 5: August went by Gus.

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Speaker 3: He had a beautiful relationship with his entire family accepted Mario,

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00:22:51,920 --> 00:22:54,680
Speaker 3: and Mario came out at a very young age. For

395
00:22:54,800 --> 00:22:57,960
Speaker 3: all accounts and purposes, he was a beautiful human being,

396
00:22:58,760 --> 00:23:03,240
Speaker 3: and he was Spanish and Ecuadorian and he lived in

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Speaker 3: San Francisco.

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Speaker 5: Like everything lined up. We found census, we found passports.

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Speaker 3: Photos, photos, yes, which now we can post and share.

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Speaker 5: And now we can tell the hotels.

401
00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:17,280
Speaker 3: We haven't told them yet because we wanted to do

402
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Speaker 3: it the right way.

403
00:23:18,920 --> 00:23:23,240
Speaker 4: That is really exciting. So not only did we find

404
00:23:23,280 --> 00:23:27,080
Speaker 4: out that George wasn't the father, but now we know

405
00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:30,600
Speaker 4: who he actually is and that that is real.

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00:23:30,760 --> 00:23:32,080
Speaker 5: Closure, that is real close.

407
00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:32,560
Speaker 2: Yes.

408
00:23:32,800 --> 00:23:39,159
Speaker 3: Yes, So that first video call with the De Loosadas,

409
00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:41,919
Speaker 3: our auntie Judy told us, she's like, so, you know,

410
00:23:42,040 --> 00:23:46,879
Speaker 3: I watched the Doctor Phil show with you and Evet

411
00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:51,000
Speaker 3: and your great uncle Steve, and he was trying to

412
00:23:51,040 --> 00:23:56,320
Speaker 3: say that, you know, our dad raped your grandmother Tamar,

413
00:23:56,760 --> 00:24:00,000
Speaker 3: and she was just like, there's no way. There's apps

414
00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:03,080
Speaker 3: you know. She's like, she's like, there is no way.

415
00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:05,680
Speaker 3: And I just want to put that out there that

416
00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:08,480
Speaker 3: this was a one night encounter. None of us know

417
00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:11,960
Speaker 3: what really happened. Everyone who is involved is not alive anymore.

418
00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:13,840
Speaker 3: But I do want to say on behalf of the

419
00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:18,560
Speaker 3: de Losadas that there's like, there's no way. Our father

420
00:24:18,720 --> 00:24:21,600
Speaker 3: was a beautiful, loving, kind man. I just I just

421
00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:23,200
Speaker 3: have to say that. That's what she told us, and

422
00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:25,880
Speaker 3: we're like, yeah, sorry about sorry about that, sorry about

423
00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:27,920
Speaker 3: doctor Phil, but we love doctor Phil obviously.

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Speaker 4: Well yeah, I mean that was the information that everybody

425
00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:34,560
Speaker 4: had at that time, you know, and now you have

426
00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:37,439
Speaker 4: new information exactly. I was just going to say, how

427
00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:40,000
Speaker 4: do you feel knowing who it is now?

428
00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:44,159
Speaker 2: It's a piece within you know for me, you know,

429
00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:47,480
Speaker 2: being the eldest. And I just have to say, from

430
00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:50,280
Speaker 2: the time I was very young and hearing this story,

431
00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:53,960
Speaker 2: I never accepted that. Ask me why, I don't know,

432
00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:57,919
Speaker 2: It's just my personality. I didn't accept it. But you know,

433
00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:01,040
Speaker 2: when Mom passed and we asked her, you know, did

434
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Speaker 2: she believe that George was her father? And she said yes,

435
00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:07,879
Speaker 2: that starts to resonate in your head that the possibility

436
00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:11,679
Speaker 2: is very true. And you know, then to go on

437
00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:13,800
Speaker 2: root of Evil and find out all of these things

438
00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:17,439
Speaker 2: you just didn't know, you know, but to have a

439
00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:21,919
Speaker 2: definitive answer of who it puts me at peace. But

440
00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:26,479
Speaker 2: more so than me, Zach, I feel the peace in

441
00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:27,399
Speaker 2: my mom's spirit.

442
00:25:28,119 --> 00:25:29,719
Speaker 4: That's the gift, you know.

443
00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:34,120
Speaker 3: I always thought that George was our mom's father because

444
00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:37,640
Speaker 3: of all the questions that I had asked my grandmother

445
00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:41,879
Speaker 3: tomorrow over the years, and Mom's evasiveness to talk about

446
00:25:41,920 --> 00:25:44,760
Speaker 3: it and all of that, and obviously like to you know,

447
00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:47,280
Speaker 3: a few days before Tamar died herself, she died in

448
00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:49,760
Speaker 3: twenty fifteen, she said the same thing out.

449
00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:51,639
Speaker 5: Loud, that she thought that George was the father.

450
00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:54,200
Speaker 3: Our mom said it a few days before she died

451
00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:56,560
Speaker 3: in twenty seventeen that she thought that George was the father,

452
00:25:56,640 --> 00:25:58,960
Speaker 3: and the sad part is that he could have been.

453
00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:03,240
Speaker 5: And so for me when I found out.

454
00:26:04,040 --> 00:26:08,040
Speaker 3: Definitively that we knew who the father was, because we

455
00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:10,119
Speaker 3: didn't know if it was John Houston Man Ray some

456
00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:13,440
Speaker 3: random rumor at the Franklin Souden house.

457
00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:14,359
Speaker 5: We had no idea.

458
00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:19,920
Speaker 3: But I love the fact that we now know that

459
00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:24,080
Speaker 3: there was this beautiful human and this beautiful family, and

460
00:26:24,119 --> 00:26:27,000
Speaker 3: like we know where Mom got her kindness from. Like

461
00:26:27,320 --> 00:26:32,400
Speaker 3: the Delo Sadas just have this oozing warmth and sincerity

462
00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:38,080
Speaker 3: and kindness and supportiveness, and I'm like, oh, like just

463
00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:38,719
Speaker 3: the breath.

464
00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:42,239
Speaker 2: Absolutely, absolutely, it really is.

465
00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:45,560
Speaker 3: We haven't met them, the Delosadas in person yet because

466
00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:48,720
Speaker 3: they all live in Canada now, but we're in you know,

467
00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:50,879
Speaker 3: we're in constant communication on social media.

468
00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:53,960
Speaker 5: We got their blessing. We're like, hey, we're going to

469
00:26:54,040 --> 00:26:54,600
Speaker 5: tell the world.

470
00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:58,639
Speaker 3: They're like, yeah, like they only wish they could have

471
00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:02,720
Speaker 3: met Mom. But we've told them just like we told you,

472
00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:04,320
Speaker 3: you know, you know, Fana.

473
00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:09,320
Speaker 2: Hodel, through the two of us, through us, through her girls, beautiful.

474
00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:11,439
Speaker 4: I love that you were able to have that moment

475
00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:16,160
Speaker 4: And now can you know see where the next chapter goes.

476
00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:39,960
Speaker 2: We're just going to get right into this because you

477
00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:42,760
Speaker 2: know you've talked about throughout this podcast how you hate

478
00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:47,680
Speaker 2: your voice, which we don't understand why why that is,

479
00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:51,560
Speaker 2: but we know you have a fabulous voice, and you

480
00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:54,520
Speaker 2: just have to tell us about this new podcast that

481
00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:58,919
Speaker 2: you are hosting called the Set about the Dirty thirty.

482
00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:02,119
Speaker 2: I know that it's said in the late eighties nineties

483
00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:08,160
Speaker 2: about the whole Wild Kingdom, the Crack Empire, the heroin

484
00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:11,000
Speaker 2: the stage houses. I mean, get into is Zach tell us.

485
00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:13,880
Speaker 4: Thank you for the opportunity to talk about it. I mean,

486
00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:21,400
Speaker 4: the biggest scandal in NYPD history. And I was actually

487
00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:25,879
Speaker 4: doing research for season four of another show that I

488
00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:29,080
Speaker 4: have done called Gangster Capitalism. We just came off of

489
00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:33,679
Speaker 4: season three, which was about Jerry Folwell Junior and Liberty University,

490
00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:38,920
Speaker 4: which was a very rewarding process for me, advocating on

491
00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:42,840
Speaker 4: behalf of sexual violence survivors on campus where the school

492
00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:45,840
Speaker 4: covered it up, and I was able to connect them

493
00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:49,479
Speaker 4: with an attorney who ended up suing the school on

494
00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:53,560
Speaker 4: behalf of twenty two. Jane Does sued the school successfully

495
00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:57,320
Speaker 4: and wowow, So it was a really rewarding process, and

496
00:28:57,360 --> 00:28:59,800
Speaker 4: the show did really well, and I was looking for

497
00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:03,760
Speaker 4: a topic for the fourth season, and I was literally

498
00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:08,560
Speaker 4: googling corrupt industries, what will come up? And you know,

499
00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:12,200
Speaker 4: I was doing all sorts of research and pharma and

500
00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:17,240
Speaker 4: the auto industry and not saying that they're corrupt as

501
00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:19,480
Speaker 4: a whole, but specific stories that I was sort of

502
00:29:19,520 --> 00:29:22,840
Speaker 4: circling around. And I went down the rabbit hole and

503
00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:27,720
Speaker 4: I realized that there was this precinct, the thirtieth Precinct

504
00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:30,960
Speaker 4: in the NYPD, which is located in West Harlem in

505
00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:35,320
Speaker 4: the northern northwestern end of Manhattan during the height of

506
00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:38,400
Speaker 4: the crack epidemic. It was a level of corruption that

507
00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:43,080
Speaker 4: I had never imagined or even heard about, cops actually

508
00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:48,520
Speaker 4: robbing drug dealers and then selling the stolen drugs back

509
00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:52,640
Speaker 4: to friendly drug dealers, so they were essentially drug dealers themselves.

510
00:29:53,520 --> 00:29:56,880
Speaker 4: The next step that I always do in this situation is, HM,

511
00:29:57,440 --> 00:30:00,960
Speaker 4: what's been done on this? Because for sure, there have

512
00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:05,160
Speaker 4: been ten documentaries about this already made, and I'm so

513
00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:09,480
Speaker 4: late to the game because it's thirty years later, and

514
00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:14,480
Speaker 4: to my utter disbelief and happiness, nothing the story had

515
00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:18,040
Speaker 4: never been told. And I said Holy shit, how has

516
00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:22,040
Speaker 4: this story never been told in narrative form other than

517
00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:25,320
Speaker 4: you know, sort of the news writers at the time

518
00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:28,520
Speaker 4: who were on the police beat, just reporting the news

519
00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:32,000
Speaker 4: of the day. And I thought to myself, Wow, this

520
00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:33,920
Speaker 4: this could be really big. And what I often do

521
00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:35,960
Speaker 4: in these situations is I bite off way more than

522
00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:39,520
Speaker 4: I can chew. And I'm thinking this could be a

523
00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:43,920
Speaker 4: story about New York City itself and policing, and you know,

524
00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:47,760
Speaker 4: told through the prism of this one precinct and this

525
00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:51,280
Speaker 4: commission that was formed, the MOLN Commission that was formed

526
00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:56,000
Speaker 4: to look into police corruption. If I can get people

527
00:30:56,040 --> 00:31:00,080
Speaker 4: to talk, it could be a highly entertaining show. But

528
00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:03,040
Speaker 4: it also could be and this is where my mind

529
00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:05,800
Speaker 4: always goes, it could also teach us sort of what

530
00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:08,840
Speaker 4: can happen, I guess when policing goes wrong, you know.

531
00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:10,400
Speaker 5: The ultimate power interruption?

532
00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:15,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, what can happen when a police department does not

533
00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:21,080
Speaker 4: police itself? And so I thought that that question is

534
00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:25,480
Speaker 4: one worthy of diving into and one that should never

535
00:31:25,520 --> 00:31:29,120
Speaker 4: go away, right because what happened with the Dirty thirty

536
00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:32,080
Speaker 4: in New York City and the crack era is exactly

537
00:31:32,120 --> 00:31:36,000
Speaker 4: what happens when the police department fails to police itself,

538
00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:41,000
Speaker 4: and so I began doing my research, and I connected

539
00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:44,760
Speaker 4: with the attorney of who I thought could be the

540
00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:48,200
Speaker 4: main character or sort of the person through whose eyes

541
00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:50,800
Speaker 4: a lot of this would would be seen, and who

542
00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:55,280
Speaker 4: was taken for an insane ride himself at Barry Brown.

543
00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:57,960
Speaker 4: And I connected with Barry Brown. And Barry Brown was

544
00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:00,360
Speaker 4: a fan of the basketball documentaries that I had done,

545
00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:04,520
Speaker 4: so he knew who I was, and we hit it off,

546
00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:08,560
Speaker 4: and he had never really told his story, and he

547
00:32:08,680 --> 00:32:12,320
Speaker 4: was willing to tell it, and so we developed a

548
00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:15,160
Speaker 4: relationship in much the same way that the two of

549
00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:19,320
Speaker 4: you and I developed our relationship, and he trusted me

550
00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:22,760
Speaker 4: with it. And in addition to Barry, I ended up

551
00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:29,080
Speaker 4: connecting with most of the surviving members of the Malan Commission,

552
00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:33,880
Speaker 4: who was impaneled to investigate police corruption at the time

553
00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:37,840
Speaker 4: and happened upon this precinct that was filled with corruption

554
00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:41,280
Speaker 4: and opened it up for the world to see. So

555
00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:44,840
Speaker 4: I connected with all of them, including the investigators, and

556
00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:49,400
Speaker 4: then I connected with federal and state prosecutors, and the

557
00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:53,200
Speaker 4: state prosecutors were working for Robert Morgenthaugh at the time,

558
00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:56,480
Speaker 4: who was the most powerful DA in the country known

559
00:32:56,520 --> 00:33:00,600
Speaker 4: as the Boss, with this incredible reputation, and Mary Joe

560
00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:03,880
Speaker 4: White was the US Attorney and there became this enormous

561
00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:07,760
Speaker 4: turf war that happened behind the scenes. I ended up

562
00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:10,560
Speaker 4: getting some of the cops who were convicted of corruption.

563
00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:15,520
Speaker 4: So it's a really round story. And for the first

564
00:33:15,560 --> 00:33:18,520
Speaker 4: time I think it's I don't think it's a stretch.

565
00:33:18,920 --> 00:33:20,880
Speaker 4: It's not a stretch. It's the truth to say that

566
00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:24,000
Speaker 4: this is the first time that this story is being

567
00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:27,200
Speaker 4: told by the people who lived it. And it is

568
00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:32,600
Speaker 4: cops dealing drugs, it's cops perjuring themselves. It is the

569
00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:36,600
Speaker 4: police department reacting to it and cleaning things up. It

570
00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:39,320
Speaker 4: is the turf war that went on behind the scenes

571
00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:44,880
Speaker 4: between Robert Morgenthal, the Boss, the DA and the Molon

572
00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:47,480
Speaker 4: Commission and the Southern District of New York and that

573
00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:51,600
Speaker 4: story has never been told. And the pawn who is

574
00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:54,640
Speaker 4: in the middle of all of it, who gets fucked over,

575
00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:58,480
Speaker 4: And it is all told in this landscape of the

576
00:33:58,600 --> 00:34:03,520
Speaker 4: crack epidemic and what West Harlem and other communities were

577
00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:07,520
Speaker 4: put through because these police were not out policing, they

578
00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:11,399
Speaker 4: were in it for themselves. There are all these crazy moments. Yeah,

579
00:34:11,440 --> 00:34:13,920
Speaker 4: but at the end of the day, it's a story

580
00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:17,560
Speaker 4: that I think could happen in any city when the

581
00:34:17,560 --> 00:34:21,239
Speaker 4: police department does not police itself. Yet this is a

582
00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:25,040
Speaker 4: uniquely New York story as well, and so I hope

583
00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:29,080
Speaker 4: that it will really resonate with the audience. I think

584
00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:29,520
Speaker 4: it will.

585
00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:30,480
Speaker 5: It will.

586
00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:33,640
Speaker 2: Can you tell our listeners exactly when it's going to launch?

587
00:34:34,080 --> 00:34:37,919
Speaker 4: Yeah, So the first three episodes are coming out on

588
00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:43,319
Speaker 4: June fourteenth. Again, it's called the Set Set and you'll

589
00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:47,279
Speaker 4: find out what that means as you listen, and it

590
00:34:47,360 --> 00:34:51,680
Speaker 4: will be ten episodes released weekly. You can also binge

591
00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:53,440
Speaker 4: it on the Odyssey app.

592
00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:57,200
Speaker 3: Well, we are so excited and honored to listen to it,

593
00:34:57,239 --> 00:34:59,320
Speaker 3: to promote it, to do all the things.

594
00:34:59,080 --> 00:35:03,840
Speaker 2: All the things, Yes, Zach, from the bottom of our hearts,

595
00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:07,480
Speaker 2: you know you. You will forever be our brother from

596
00:35:07,520 --> 00:35:11,200
Speaker 2: another mother. We love you. You are our family, You

597
00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:16,719
Speaker 2: are o'hanna, and we are forever grateful for you and

598
00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:21,040
Speaker 2: to you. So thank you so much again for being

599
00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:25,040
Speaker 2: with us today. It was it was the reunion of

600
00:35:25,080 --> 00:35:25,759
Speaker 2: a lifetime.

601
00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:30,279
Speaker 4: Thank you, and and right back at you, Vet, I mean,

602
00:35:30,320 --> 00:35:31,960
Speaker 4: I feel the same way about the both of you.

603
00:35:32,080 --> 00:35:34,799
Speaker 4: I'm so happy to see you doing what you love

604
00:35:34,840 --> 00:35:39,439
Speaker 4: to do. And thank you for having me on. Thank

605
00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:41,480
Speaker 4: you for you know, for having this for them to

606
00:35:41,520 --> 00:35:44,680
Speaker 4: talk about all these things, about this moment in our

607
00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:48,160
Speaker 4: lives where we came together and and uh and and

608
00:35:48,160 --> 00:35:50,600
Speaker 4: and did this thing and and uh and of course

609
00:35:50,640 --> 00:35:53,040
Speaker 4: thank you for allowing me to talk about the set.

610
00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:56,240
Speaker 4: I will be a fan of both of you forever.

611
00:36:01,680 --> 00:36:05,680
Speaker 2: Today's message of hope and healing goes out to our mama,

612
00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:11,000
Speaker 2: Fauna Fanna Hodel. Her life's mission has become our mission

613
00:36:11,160 --> 00:36:15,440
Speaker 2: to share stories of how we can all overcome and

614
00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:16,160
Speaker 2: be the light.

615
00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:20,600
Speaker 3: Our emua also goes out to our guests today, mister

616
00:36:20,719 --> 00:36:25,040
Speaker 3: Zach Lovett, who our mother would have loved with every

617
00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:28,399
Speaker 3: ounce of her heart and soul just like we do,

618
00:36:29,320 --> 00:36:32,680
Speaker 3: because he took her life's work and he turned it

619
00:36:32,719 --> 00:36:38,600
Speaker 3: into a true masterpiece of storytelling. We are forever grateful

620
00:36:38,640 --> 00:36:42,879
Speaker 3: for the gift that Zach and our mom have given us.

621
00:36:43,560 --> 00:36:47,279
Speaker 2: It is all about the storytelling, and one thing that

622
00:36:47,360 --> 00:36:50,680
Speaker 2: we know for sure is we can all learn from

623
00:36:50,760 --> 00:37:02,080
Speaker 2: one another and move onward and upward. Emua ema emua.

624
00:37:03,960 --> 00:37:05,440
Speaker 5: Well, that's our show for today.

625
00:37:05,680 --> 00:37:08,640
Speaker 3: We'd love to hear what you thought about today's discussion

626
00:37:08,880 --> 00:37:11,040
Speaker 3: and if there's a case you'd like for us to cover.

627
00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:14,799
Speaker 2: Find us on social media or email us at facingebl

628
00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:16,720
Speaker 2: pod at Tenderfoot dot tv.

629
00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:20,839
Speaker 3: And one small request if you haven't already, please find

630
00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:23,239
Speaker 3: us on iTunes and give us a good rating and

631
00:37:23,280 --> 00:37:25,520
Speaker 3: a good review. If you like what we do, your

632
00:37:25,560 --> 00:37:28,920
Speaker 3: support is always cherished until next time.

633
00:37:29,320 --> 00:37:29,960
Speaker 2: Aloha.

634
00:37:47,320 --> 00:37:51,000
Speaker 1: Facing Evil is a production of iHeartRadio and Tenderfoot TV.

635
00:37:51,880 --> 00:37:54,960
Speaker 1: The show is hosted by Russia Pacuerero in a Vetchintile,

636
00:37:55,760 --> 00:37:59,440
Speaker 1: Matt Frederick and Alex Williams, our executive producers on behalf

637
00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:03,200
Speaker 1: of iHeart Radio, with producers Trevor Young and Jesse Funk,

638
00:38:03,920 --> 00:38:07,440
Speaker 1: Donald albright In Payne Lindsay our executive producers on behalf

639
00:38:07,480 --> 00:38:12,480
Speaker 1: of Tenderfoot TV, alongside producer Tracy Kaplan. Our researcher is

640
00:38:12,560 --> 00:38:17,640
Speaker 1: Carolyn Talmage. Original music by Makeup and Vanity Set. Find

641
00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:21,480
Speaker 1: us on social media or email us at Facingevilpod at

642
00:38:21,480 --> 00:38:26,520
Speaker 1: Tenderfoot dot tv. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio or Tenderfoot TV,

643
00:38:27,160 --> 00:38:31,360
Speaker 1: visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen

644
00:38:31,360 --> 00:38:34,360
Speaker 1: to your favorite shows.