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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics,

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Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of

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Speaker 1: today's best minds, and Donald Trump says on stage again

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Speaker 1: that he wants to be a dictator. Take him seriously

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Speaker 1: and literally. We have such an interesting show for you today.

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Speaker 1: The Intercepts Ryan Grimm stops by to tell us about

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Speaker 1: his new book, The Squad, AOC and the Hope of

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Speaker 1: a Political Revolution. Then we'll talk to Professor Steven Levitski

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Speaker 1: about why Republicans have turned against democracy.

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Speaker 2: But first we have.

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Speaker 1: The host of the Enemy's List, the one, the only,

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Speaker 1: the Lincoln Project's own, Rick Wilson.

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Speaker 2: Welcome back to Fast Politics.

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Speaker 3: Rick Wilson, Mollie Jong Fast, How are you this fine day?

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Speaker 2: Just keeping it going? Unlike the United States Congress, you.

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Speaker 3: Know, well, unlike the United States Congress, and unlike so

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Speaker 3: many arms of our government these days, you are the

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Speaker 3: hardest working woman in show business.

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Speaker 1: Well, the bar is very fucking low if we're going

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Speaker 1: to come the Congress.

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Speaker 2: I've started listening to a lot of podcasts, and I.

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Speaker 1: Was listening to a podcast that specializes in Congress and

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Speaker 1: is not very liberal. It's very striking them at all

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Speaker 1: if even maybe a little conservative, and they were talking

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Speaker 1: about how this Congress is the do nothing Congress.

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Speaker 2: Do nothing.

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Speaker 3: There is a meaningful number of actions Congress could be

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Speaker 3: taking right now that would improve the lives of Americans.

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Speaker 3: But why would they do that?

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Speaker 2: I mean, come on, crazy talk.

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Speaker 3: I heard this morning that they're trying to prepare hearings

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Speaker 3: on the Taylor swift syop because you know, if you're

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Speaker 3: the Republican Party and you want to cause yourself enormous agony,

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Speaker 3: you could do one of three things. You could put

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Speaker 3: your dick in a meat grinder, or you could attack

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Speaker 3: this week.

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Speaker 2: You get I love Rick.

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Speaker 1: You cannot have Rick on the podcast without the superfluois

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Speaker 1: dick meat grounder joke.

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Speaker 3: I don't know. It wasn't superfluous though.

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Speaker 2: I mean, right, just moving us right along.

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Speaker 3: The attacking tailors is like you're shoving a live wolverine

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Speaker 3: in your pants. It's going to be loud and messy,

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Speaker 3: but it's also got to eventually into nothing but pain

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Speaker 3: and suffering.

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Speaker 1: So let's just talk about this for a minute. The

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Speaker 1: Republicans in the House, you know, I think they have

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Speaker 1: like a few days left and do nothing Congress before

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Speaker 1: they go out for Christmas, because God forbid anyone should

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Speaker 1: work during any holiday ever. But one of the things

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Speaker 1: they're really working on is they want to open this

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Speaker 1: impeachment inquoy. One of my favorite things is I don't

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Speaker 1: know if you heard, because I have no life, and

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Speaker 1: I listened to c SPAN.

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Speaker 2: I heard what speaker Mike Johnson was trying.

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Speaker 1: To get people to vote, and he said, don't vote

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Speaker 1: for this because you believe in impeachment. Vote for this

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Speaker 1: because you believe in the United States Constitution.

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Speaker 3: So what I have questions? Yes, one of which is

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Speaker 3: what the fuck? I was like, huh wait what.

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Speaker 2: He's almost slick, that guy, but not quite.

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Speaker 3: He imagines that he's slick. He imagines that he's some

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Speaker 3: sort of like crafty rhetorical player. But let's be real,

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Speaker 3: other than being inspired by God himself and being told

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Speaker 3: that he's the Moses of our generation.

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Speaker 2: Yes, I think God actually spoke to him.

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Speaker 3: I think at least they were having a signal chat

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Speaker 3: with God.

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Speaker 2: Right exactly.

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Speaker 3: When you look at Johnson's hubris and that kind of thing,

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Speaker 3: it doesn't match up with his ability to move the

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Speaker 3: ball at all. So far. He is a guy who's

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Speaker 3: walking around with a target on his back. He knows it.

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Speaker 3: He knows that the gates is and all the weirdos

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Speaker 3: are ready to just leap on him and destroy him

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Speaker 3: at the slightest provocation.

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Speaker 2: But does anyone think that he would be good at this?

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Speaker 1: I mean, I don't think he got the job because

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Speaker 1: anyone thought he'd be good at it.

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Speaker 3: Moly. I think that's a really good observation, is that

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Speaker 3: in some ways he wasn't a compromise candidate. He was

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Speaker 3: exactly who they wanted, was somebody who would not resist

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Speaker 3: the train wreck, because remember, what they want is the spectacle.

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Speaker 3: They want the collapse, the chaos, the ugliness, the train wreck,

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Speaker 3: the bullshit. They want all those broken toy moments that

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Speaker 3: you know, if you have a party that has been

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Speaker 3: replaced by a cult run by mad men, right.

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Speaker 1: And I think that's a really good point. And that's

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Speaker 1: where we're looking down the barrel of So I don't

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Speaker 1: know where this goes next.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I don't know, what do you think.

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Speaker 3: Look, they have to do a few housekeeping matters before

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Speaker 3: the end of the year.

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Speaker 1: The enormous supplemental that would save U. Krayon just a

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Speaker 1: few housekeeping matters.

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Speaker 3: Whilst I am not a Jim Langford fanboy, he's actually

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Speaker 3: dealing with the White House to work out a deal.

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Speaker 3: The White House wants a deal too, and I think

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Speaker 3: it's important that they try to land something. And believe me,

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Speaker 3: Langford's not doing this without Mitch mca donald's blessing. They're

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Speaker 3: teeing up something that will put Johnson in a very

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Speaker 3: bad spot. But real talk, he has no choice. He

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Speaker 3: have to swallow hard and vote for this because if

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Speaker 3: he doesn't, the rest of the fund stops for the

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Speaker 3: Republicans in the House. Because even those guys need the

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Speaker 3: supplemental stuff. Even they need it, you know, it's just

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Speaker 3: you don't just as like a like blow it off.

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Speaker 1: At this point, there are three things in the supplemental

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Speaker 1: that Ukraine funding, Taiwan funding, and Israel funding. So these

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Speaker 1: are the three places where the world is on fire,

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Speaker 1: except Taiwan is to stop the world from going on fire.

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Speaker 3: If you're a Republican, do you want your Democratic opponent

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Speaker 3: to say my opponent, Republican John Smith is soft on Jina. Yes,

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Speaker 3: he voted also Chinese Communist Party in Jina, right, But.

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Speaker 1: I also think an important data point here is that

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Speaker 1: this is money that ultimately, right it goes to making

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Speaker 1: more weapons in the United States because we're sending Ukraine

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Speaker 1: our old stockpile, So it's actually money that's going into

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Speaker 1: the American economy.

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Speaker 2: So there's any number of reasons to do this.

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Speaker 3: Two thirds of the spend on Ukraine aid so far

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Speaker 3: has been to American defense contractors and American workers who

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Speaker 3: are replacing the old crap we're sending over there. By

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Speaker 3: old crap, I don't mean it's crappy. I think it's

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Speaker 3: just it's stuff that you know. Look, the Abrams tanks

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Speaker 3: were sending over there are things that were around during

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Speaker 3: the First Golf War and they're perfectly good combat operations things.

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Speaker 3: But now we're building new things to replace them. This

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Speaker 3: is not a bad outcome for this economy, which, by

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Speaker 3: the way, once again, the unemployment rate is now down

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Speaker 3: to three point seven percent as of this Friday, and

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Speaker 3: two hundred thousand jobs were created. Once again, the Biden

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Speaker 3: economy is a healthscape for what's the living in the dead.

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Speaker 1: Thoughts and prayers to Maria Bartaromo and all the people

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Speaker 1: at Fox and Fox News are going to have to

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Speaker 1: pretend that the economy is bad for another cycle.

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Speaker 3: By the way, Mawi not to change the subject, but

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Speaker 3: I don't know if you caught the Peter Deucy clip

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Speaker 3: on Friday morning, where he on the White House lawn

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Speaker 3: admitted to a shocked audience back on the Curvy Couch

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Speaker 3: that they'd been seeking to try to impeach Biden for

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Speaker 3: years and could never find any evidence. How did the

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Speaker 3: deep state get to Peter Deucy? My god, does there

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Speaker 3: reach no no limit?

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Speaker 1: What I love about Peter Doocy is that he's just

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Speaker 1: a fucking moron.

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Speaker 2: There I said it.

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Speaker 3: I don't know if you could even call him a moron.

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Speaker 3: It's like an insult to morons to call him a moron.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a good point. That's a very very good point.

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Speaker 1: That's a kind of hot take that we at fast

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Speaker 1: politics here we really appreciate. So there's this like last

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Speaker 1: dash to try to save Ukraine. And by the way,

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Speaker 1: the stakes in Ukraine, I mean could not be higher,

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Speaker 1: because I mean, this is what's keeping Russia from just

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Speaker 1: taking over, right.

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Speaker 3: The idea that we would abandon Ukraine at this point

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Speaker 3: and hand Vladimir Putin to win in a moment that

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Speaker 3: would destroy NATO, and look if you're a Trumper, maybe

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Speaker 3: you want to do that. That would shatter America's reputation

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Speaker 3: as an ally in the European battle against authoritarianism, that

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Speaker 3: would reward Vladimir Putin's war crimes because jd Vance and

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Speaker 3: Donald Trump and Steve Bannon want a side with Putin.

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Speaker 3: If you're willing to do that, you're a loss. You're

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Speaker 3: a lost cause, you're a lost soul. And the fact

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Speaker 3: of the matter is the same people right now who

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Speaker 3: don't want Ukraine aid. The minute the ukraineate stops and

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Speaker 3: the tanks rolling the Kiev will be screaming Joe Biden

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Speaker 3: so weak you couldn't stop Putin from advanting to you,

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Speaker 3: this is a very dark group of people who who

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Speaker 3: are completely in an alliance with Putin, whether they want

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Speaker 3: to say it or not. And frankly, some of them

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Speaker 3: were in a more there's a whole like weirdo Republican

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Speaker 3: alliance with Alexander due getting all these strange Russian nationalist types.

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Speaker 1: Even inadvertently or Edvertony, that crew probably would like to

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Speaker 1: see Vladimir Putin win. But it's a lot cheaper for

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Speaker 1: all parties involved for that not to happen. So the hope,

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Speaker 1: I think is that that doesn't happen.

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Speaker 3: From what I'm hearing around the feed store, we're getting

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Speaker 3: a lot closer than people want to admit. Which is fine.

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Speaker 3: You know, it's fine. It's Washington doing what actually is

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Speaker 3: supposed to happen in Washington, which is people are negotiating compromises.

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Speaker 3: I know this is sort of an astoundingly dangerous concept

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Speaker 3: for most people, but yeah, here we are.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so we have that, and then we have the

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Speaker 1: incredible stuff happening with Hunter Biden.

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Speaker 2: Hunter Biden.

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Speaker 1: No one has ever been charged with more things for

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Speaker 1: less stuff than Hunter Biden.

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Speaker 3: I'm just really terri that this is going to cost

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Speaker 3: Hunter Biden in the electoral swing states this year. Because

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Speaker 3: Hunter's presidential campaign is just getting off the ground, and

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Speaker 3: now that he's going to have these things hanging over him,

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Speaker 3: I just don't know he's going to perform in Arizona, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin,

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Speaker 3: and Michigan. It's just a right.

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Speaker 2: But we'll talk. Let's just talk about this. Does this

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Speaker 2: hurt Biden?

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Speaker 3: No, let me tell you it's already baked in the cake.

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Speaker 3: The only people that are that would make a decision

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Speaker 3: to vote against Joe Biden because of Hunter. Biden are Trumpers.

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Speaker 3: They were never going to vote for Joe Biden in

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Speaker 3: the first place. But of course I guarantee you we

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Speaker 3: will see a New York Times story the next like

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Speaker 3: seven days. These Democrats were considering Joe Biden, but now

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Speaker 3: because of Hunter, they've dogged the red hat of Maga.

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Speaker 3: We sat down, We sat down with four in cells,

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Speaker 3: kind a Dungeon and Dragons party.

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Speaker 1: Those dungeons and Dragons people are liberals. But I mean,

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Speaker 1: I do think it is really interesting. I mean, like,

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Speaker 1: you know, I saw polls this morning on how seventy

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Speaker 1: percent of Americans want action on climate seventy percent, fifty

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Speaker 1: percent of all Republicans. Okay, we're never going to see that, Poul, Right,

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Speaker 1: We're only going to see the poll that says.

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Speaker 2: Americans think Biden is too old. Right. That's the only

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Speaker 2: pole you ever get to say.

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Speaker 3: Mm hmm. It's funny you mentioned that because I talked

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Speaker 3: to a friend of mine who a very well meaning

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Speaker 3: activist and a smart person the other day. We're talking

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Speaker 3: about Trump and you know, Trump winning a second term,

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Speaker 3: and she said, you know, my biggest worry is you

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Speaker 3: know at that point, we'll we'll never get a climate bill.

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Speaker 3: I'm like, let me tell you, I love you and everything,

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Speaker 3: but uh, you see, the biggest problem of Trump's second

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Speaker 3: term is not getting a climate bill.

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Speaker 4: I have some news for you.

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Speaker 3: You won't even know about it because you'll be in

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Speaker 3: the camp.

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Speaker 2: I mean really like, that's the biggest.

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Speaker 3: That's your biggest source of worry about the second Trump term.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so I mean that, I think is a really

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Speaker 1: good point. And do you think people wake up on

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Speaker 1: January first? And I are like, oh fuck, because a

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Speaker 1: lot of people don't think Trump's going to be the nominee.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I was talking to someone who's a very

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Speaker 1: fancy media insider who was saying, fifty to fifty, Nicki

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Speaker 1: Haley is the nomination for focks.

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Speaker 2: And I thought, what.

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Speaker 1: Happen if the Republican Party were so normal that they

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Speaker 1: would nominate someone like Nikki Haley despite the fact that

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Speaker 1: she you know, her policies.

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Speaker 2: Saw the chance of that are zero, Like, there.

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Speaker 3: Is no universe. Let me just let me just go

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Speaker 3: back to this again. There is not a universe in

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Speaker 3: which Nicky Haley, even if she won. Don't like either

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Speaker 3: Iowa or New Hampshire wins the Republican primary. She is

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Speaker 3: behind Trump in the Super Tuesday states, which comprise over

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Speaker 3: twenty five percent of the total on average, by fifty

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Speaker 3: two points. Donald Trump could be caught in public fucking

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Speaker 3: a live goat, and there is no scenario where Nicki

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Speaker 3: Haley suddenly becomes like the anti live goat fucking candidate

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Speaker 3: and Donald Trump loses. It's not going to happen. People,

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Speaker 3: when somebody who is had by fifty points sixty days

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Speaker 3: out from an election, it's not going to change. This

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Speaker 3: is not how anything works. Nothing happens this way in politics.

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Speaker 2: So you're saying she has a chance.

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Speaker 3: Jesus Christ, So oh no, let's be this way, okay, Iowa,

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Speaker 3: New Hampshire, South Carolina. She's at a distant third in

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Speaker 3: Iowa right now, her numbers are improving, the Santa's are

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Speaker 3: slightly declining. She's still going to place second, only thirty

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Speaker 3: five points behind Donald Trump. She's doing okay. In New Hampshire,

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Speaker 3: she might play second, only twenty five points behind Donald Trump.

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Speaker 3: She's thirty points behind Donald Trump. And her home state.

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Speaker 3: She's at eight percent in Florida, which is a very

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Speaker 3: big prize on March twelfth. She's sixty points behind Trump

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Speaker 3: in Texas and California on Super Tuesday. Okay, sixty points

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Speaker 3: behind Trump are in Texas and California, and all the

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Speaker 3: Super Tuesday states except for like one or two, are

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Speaker 3: winter take all and the big states are all winner

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Speaker 3: take all. So if you have Trump winning Texas, California,

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Speaker 3: and Florida in March, and if he wins nothing else

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Speaker 3: right there, he's got thirty percent of the vote, this

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Speaker 3: isn't gonna go like she thinks it's gonna go. You

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Speaker 3: can put all the money into Nikky Hilly in the

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Speaker 3: world you want right now, and I'm sorry, you have

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Speaker 3: basically put your cash on a bonfire. Does it fuck

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Speaker 3: with Trump? Great? Does it make Trump look a little weaker?

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Speaker 4: Sure?

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Speaker 3: Okay, none of it, at the end of the day

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Speaker 3: is going to make this outcome any different.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 3: Sorry. I'm passionate about the subject because I believe you

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Speaker 3: have to hit the monster that's actually out there, and

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Speaker 3: that's Donald Trump.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. No, I feel like that's a good point.

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Speaker 1: I also feel like the thing I'm I see so

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Speaker 1: much is that there's so much like media on media violence,

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Speaker 1: and so many of these news cycles are driven by

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Speaker 1: like fantasy, wish cast god yes, holes that were direct

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Speaker 1: by Republican pollsters. You know, I don't think much of

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Speaker 1: the organic stuff, but I don't think much of the

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Speaker 1: news cycle is organic right now.

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Speaker 3: Oh No, As you pointed out in your article about pulling,

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Speaker 3: I guess a week ago. Now, these are not real events.

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Speaker 3: These are not real things driving the polls. And because

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Speaker 3: reporters look at all the polling aggregation sides five point

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Speaker 3: thirty eight real clear, all those places, Republicans learn you

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Speaker 3: can dump a lot of junk polls into the system

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Speaker 3: to get a media narrative running that every young motor

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Speaker 3: is a band of Joe Biden over Hamas. No, not true.

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Speaker 3: Every Hispanic voter, no, not true. Black men are all that. No,

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Speaker 3: not true. All those things are happening in small numbers,

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Speaker 3: and they should be concerning. But there's a lot of

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Speaker 3: fundamentals out there right now that put Biden in a

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Speaker 3: very strong position that is being underestimated and simultaneously underreported.

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Speaker 3: But look, Biden is in the middle of a massive

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Speaker 3: economic good news story. It's taking long time to trickle

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Speaker 3: into the minds and hearts and brains of people. But

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Speaker 3: it's happening. None of these things are easy. The facts

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Speaker 3: on the ground are starting to make it harder and

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Speaker 3: harder for Fox to portray the country as you know,

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Speaker 3: an economic healthcape. It's harder and harder for them to

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Speaker 3: deny that gas prices are down, interest rates are down,

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Speaker 3: the labor market is booming, the retirements are booming, the

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Speaker 3: stock market is booming.

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Speaker 2: And now we are booming on too far. So Rick Wilson,

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Speaker 2: thank you for joining us. You are the best.

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Speaker 3: I do my very best each and every day to

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Speaker 3: serve and protect this a great democracy of ours.

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Speaker 1: Ryan Grim is the Washington Bureau chief of the Intercept

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Speaker 1: and author of the Squad AOC and the hope of

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Speaker 1: a political revolution.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to Fast Politics.

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Speaker 4: Ryan, thank you for having me here.

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Speaker 2: Molly, talk to me about this book.

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Speaker 1: I want first explained to me why you decided to

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Speaker 1: write this book. I'm not surprised about the topic and

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Speaker 1: why you decided to write it, but I want you

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Speaker 1: to sort of talk us through it.

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Speaker 5: It's like a sequel kind of to my last book,

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Speaker 5: which was called We've Got People, which ran from basically

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Speaker 5: the nineteen eighties up until twenty eighteen, tracing the kind

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Speaker 5: of arc of the progressive movement. They like little underdog story,

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Speaker 5: you know, originating with Jesse Jackson and the Rainbow Coalition

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Speaker 5: fighting an outmatched battle against the kind of center left

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Speaker 5: wing of the Democratic Party, and then running through Howard

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Speaker 5: Dean really giving birth to the kind of online interaction

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Speaker 5: and the ability to raise you know, small donors to

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Speaker 5: counteract big money in politics, which then really gets turned

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Speaker 5: into perfection by Barack Obama in two thousand and eight.

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Speaker 5: But then Bernie Sanders in twenty fifteen twenty sixteen exclusively

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Speaker 5: runs basically on the famous twenty seven dollars from his

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Speaker 5: individual supporters, and the book finishes with the squad getting

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Speaker 5: elected to Congress and AOC occupying Nancy Pelosi's office to

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Speaker 5: call for a Green New Deal and strong action on

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Speaker 5: climate change. So the book had a nice satisfying arc

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Speaker 5: to it. The sequel, I think is much less satisfying,

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Speaker 5: but I think even much more interesting, you know, in

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Speaker 5: some ways, it goes back through the twenty fifteen twenty

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Speaker 5: sixteen campaign to kind of find the origins of many

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Speaker 5: of the debates that we seem to be stuck in

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Speaker 5: a loop on now, and then ends with kind of

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Speaker 5: the passage of the Inflation Reduction Act in the mid

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Speaker 5: terms of twenty twenty two, and traces the way that

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Speaker 5: the progressive wing of the party evolved and transformed over

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Speaker 5: a very short amount of time. Like if you think

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Speaker 5: about what things were like and who Bernie was in

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Speaker 5: twenty fifteen and compare that to kind of where the

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Speaker 5: squad is today, a lot has happened.

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Speaker 1: So one of the things that I think a lot

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Speaker 1: about is how progressives have actually infiltrated the Republican the

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Speaker 1: Democratic Party oops the Democratic Party in lots of really

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Speaker 1: important ways. And one of them was that Bernie Sanders

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Speaker 1: had real par in the Biden administration when it came

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Speaker 1: to budget.

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Speaker 2: Will you talk a little bit about that.

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Speaker 5: It was a surreal moment, I think for Bernie Sanders,

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Speaker 5: somebody who had spent thirty years kind of shouting from

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Speaker 5: the outside and ran a quixotic message campaign in twenty sixteen,

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Speaker 5: Like eventually it caught fire and he started to believe

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Speaker 5: that maybe he could actually win the nomination, And certainly

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Speaker 5: in twenty twenty he was running to win. But he

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Speaker 5: started out just as somebody needs to be out there,

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Speaker 5: you know, making these points so that there's a national

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Speaker 5: conversation about them. His idea was never that he was

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Speaker 5: actually going to be in power, but to be the

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Speaker 5: kind of chair of the Budget Committee while someone that

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Speaker 5: he likes, John Joe Biden was ushering through one of

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Speaker 5: the biggest transformative agendas at least since the nineteen sixties,

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Speaker 5: perhaps since the New Deal was just a capstone moment

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Speaker 5: for Sanders. For sure, he had never had the ear

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Speaker 5: of a president before effort, and now he did. And

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Speaker 5: at the same time, Yeah, the kind of rise in

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Speaker 5: kind of celebrity of the squad at AOC in particular,

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Speaker 5: gave progressives a purchase on kind of cultural power that

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Speaker 5: they hadn't really had before either, and that translated into

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Speaker 5: ron Klaan in particular. You know, the chief of staff

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Speaker 5: for first two years really paying more attention to the

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Speaker 5: left of the Democratic Party than basically any chief of

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Speaker 5: staff ever probably.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So I want to ask you about that, because

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Speaker 1: it does seem like there were a lot of progressive

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Speaker 1: piece of legislation. Progressors were able to influence the Biden

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Speaker 1: administration in a lot of really cool ways.

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Speaker 2: I don't feel like we talk about that that much,

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Speaker 2: and I'm.

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Speaker 1: Always kind of disappointed that progressives don't get more credit for,

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Speaker 1: like we are reopening factors in the United States, right, Like,

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Speaker 1: I mean, one of the things people don't talk about

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Speaker 1: because they think it's boring, so it's not a pole,

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Speaker 1: so you're not allowed to talk about it on television

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Speaker 1: is the Chips Act, right, which is like they go

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Speaker 1: around the goal is you know, if something happens, you

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Speaker 1: won't be getting all of your technological your chips, the

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Speaker 1: stuff that runs your cell phone and your watch and your.

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Speaker 2: Car from China. You'll be getting it from Ohio.

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Speaker 1: And this is like really a kind of tenant of sanders'ism, right,

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Speaker 1: is this fiscal populism where you say, you know, we're

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Speaker 1: going to bring jobs back, but.

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Speaker 2: Then you actually just bring jobs back. R Trump who says,

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Speaker 2: you know, we're going to put everyone from Mexico in jail.

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Speaker 1: Is this not talked about because it's boring or is

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Speaker 1: it not talked about because I always feel like democrats

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Speaker 1: are a little scared to say, like we did this,

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Speaker 1: and progressives wanted us to like that, they're worried that

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Speaker 1: something's going to happen to them.

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Speaker 5: There is still a kind of scared of the progressive

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Speaker 5: shadow element to it.

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Speaker 4: I think that is real. At the same time, cutting

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Speaker 4: against it was you.

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Speaker 5: Know, Ron Klayan and the Biden administration's real belief, particularly

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Speaker 5: in twenty twenty one, that the youth vote was very

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Speaker 5: progressive and that the key to unlocking the youth vote

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Speaker 5: was both the Squad and organizations like Justice Democrats, and

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Speaker 5: particularly Sunrise Movement, which I write about in the book.

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Speaker 5: Sunrise Movement had a shocking amount of access to the

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Speaker 5: White House.

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Speaker 2: Tell us what Sunrise Movement is.

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Speaker 5: This was a group of kind of left wing activists

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Speaker 5: who came together in twenty sixteen twenty seventeen around the

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Speaker 5: issue of climate, but with a lens toward you know,

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Speaker 5: economic and racial and social justice, believing that all of

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Speaker 5: the kind of big green climate groups that had come

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Speaker 5: before them weren't being confrontational enough, weren't aggressive enough, weren't

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Speaker 5: taking it seriously enough, weren't taking seriously the deep anxieties

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Speaker 5: young people around the world, and that somebody needed to

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Speaker 5: channel that and their first cycle in business. You know,

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Speaker 5: they endorsed all of the members of the Squad, and

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Speaker 5: they were willing to take a very confrontational attitude toward

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Speaker 5: the Democratic Party whereas the kind of big green groups,

440
00:22:56,400 --> 00:22:58,920
Speaker 5: you know, the Serah Club and those in that ecosystem

441
00:22:59,040 --> 00:23:03,360
Speaker 5: you have generally become kind of allies of the democratic establishment.

442
00:23:03,520 --> 00:23:07,600
Speaker 5: And so when they decided to occupy Pelosi's office and

443
00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:11,400
Speaker 5: AOC joined them in that protest, it was a global

444
00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:14,879
Speaker 5: media sensation because you had the hallways just filled with

445
00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:19,480
Speaker 5: these sixteen, seventeen, eighteen year olds, maybe some in their twenties,

446
00:23:19,480 --> 00:23:22,160
Speaker 5: but it really symbolized the kind of rise of this

447
00:23:22,359 --> 00:23:25,360
Speaker 5: of this climate generation and put the Green New Deal

448
00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:27,199
Speaker 5: on a map in a way that we may not

449
00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:30,560
Speaker 5: even fully understand, like Spain implemented a Green New Deal,

450
00:23:30,600 --> 00:23:32,960
Speaker 5: like they took the name, Germany took it and called

451
00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:35,919
Speaker 5: it a New Green Deal lost in translation and sheared

452
00:23:35,920 --> 00:23:38,960
Speaker 5: of its connection to FDR. But there was a real

453
00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:42,439
Speaker 5: excitement and energy around this idea that we're going to

454
00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:45,960
Speaker 5: kind of transform our economy and get away from fossil fuels,

455
00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:48,439
Speaker 5: and while we do that, we're going to bring jobs

456
00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:50,240
Speaker 5: back on shore, and we're going to make sure that

457
00:23:50,280 --> 00:23:52,680
Speaker 5: we created a more just society.

458
00:23:52,280 --> 00:23:53,040
Speaker 4: In the process.

459
00:23:53,119 --> 00:23:55,879
Speaker 5: And so you would not have expected when this small

460
00:23:55,960 --> 00:23:58,679
Speaker 5: organization launched that just a couple of years later, they

461
00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:01,440
Speaker 5: would constantly have the ear of the Biden White House

462
00:24:01,560 --> 00:24:04,720
Speaker 5: in helping to shape what then becomes later the Inflation

463
00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:05,520
Speaker 5: Reduction Act.

464
00:24:05,760 --> 00:24:10,120
Speaker 1: But progressives have also been very patient with the Biden administration.

465
00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:12,399
Speaker 1: Like one of the success stories, were not allowed to

466
00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:15,440
Speaker 1: talk about success stories ever in the mainstream media.

467
00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:17,359
Speaker 4: But I won't tell anybody, it'll be our secret.

468
00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:19,719
Speaker 1: But one of the success stories about the Biden administration

469
00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:22,560
Speaker 1: has been that the Biden administration has not been out

470
00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:25,600
Speaker 1: there fighting with Bernie Sanders or fighting with AARC. And

471
00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:28,639
Speaker 1: in fact, I mean there have been moments certainly in

472
00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:31,880
Speaker 1: this administration where Progressives have not been happy, but they've

473
00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:35,320
Speaker 1: been able to sort of work with the administration as

474
00:24:35,359 --> 00:24:38,120
Speaker 1: opposed to you know, on the Republican side. And again

475
00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:40,840
Speaker 1: I don't want to compare Republicans to Democrats because they've

476
00:24:40,840 --> 00:24:44,639
Speaker 1: become authoritarian, many of them, so it's not the same.

477
00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:48,320
Speaker 1: But you definitely see, you know, the Republicans recently got

478
00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:52,359
Speaker 1: rid of their speaker, right, there hasn't been Dems in Disarrye.

479
00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:55,800
Speaker 5: I tell an interesting story that wasn't reported at the time,

480
00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:58,919
Speaker 5: of a rare way that the kind of you know,

481
00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:02,960
Speaker 5: super angry the online left the squad and Bernie Sanders,

482
00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:06,480
Speaker 5: the Congressional Progressive Caucus, and the party leadership kind of

483
00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:10,920
Speaker 5: all worked in unison to make the American Rescue Plan

484
00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:14,000
Speaker 5: as good as it was and beat back objections from

485
00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:16,560
Speaker 5: Joe Mansion. Basically what happened was, if you remember, there

486
00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:20,200
Speaker 5: was this ridiculous, outrageous thing where the parliamentarian comes in

487
00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:22,720
Speaker 5: and says, ah, you can't do a minimum fifteen dollars

488
00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:26,480
Speaker 5: minimum wage through reconciliation. Bernie holds a vote, you need sixty.

489
00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:28,640
Speaker 5: At that point he doesn't get He only f forty eight,

490
00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:31,080
Speaker 5: and so there's no fifteen dollars minimum wage.

491
00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:32,000
Speaker 4: People are livid.

492
00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:36,000
Speaker 5: Meanwhile, you've got Joe Manchin coming in saying these unemployment

493
00:25:36,040 --> 00:25:38,879
Speaker 5: benefits are too generous, These these checks are going to

494
00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:40,800
Speaker 5: too many people. You know, we need to trim this

495
00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:44,000
Speaker 5: back heavily or I'm out of here. Primila Jayapaul, who

496
00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:47,399
Speaker 5: had developed a relationship with Chuck Schumer over the years,

497
00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:50,040
Speaker 5: was able to go to Schumer and say, if you

498
00:25:50,119 --> 00:25:53,040
Speaker 5: cave to Mansion on these demands, the squad is going

499
00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:55,280
Speaker 5: to walk. They're out of here. And you see the

500
00:25:55,280 --> 00:25:57,639
Speaker 5: pressure that they're under like they will walk. And it

501
00:25:57,680 --> 00:26:01,280
Speaker 5: was the first time in decades that the left, the

502
00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:04,639
Speaker 5: Progressive Caucus could deliver a credible threat from the left,

503
00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:07,040
Speaker 5: because usually in the end, the left says, you know,

504
00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:08,840
Speaker 5: if I don't have X y Z in this bill,

505
00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:10,840
Speaker 5: I'm against it. But you don't get X y Z

506
00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:13,320
Speaker 5: and it's still decent bill. So you're like, okay, find

507
00:26:13,320 --> 00:26:15,520
Speaker 5: them voting for it. And so the left then has

508
00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:18,080
Speaker 5: no leverage in any of these negotiations. Finally they had leverage.

509
00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:20,479
Speaker 5: So Schumer went back to Mansion. He's like, Joe, I

510
00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:22,840
Speaker 5: can't do this, Like this is what you have to

511
00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:24,520
Speaker 5: take when it comes to unemployment, when it comes to

512
00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:26,640
Speaker 5: these other things, or you have to take the whole

513
00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:29,040
Speaker 5: bill down because we don't have the votes in the

514
00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:31,879
Speaker 5: House if you get your way, and Manchin thought about it,

515
00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:35,200
Speaker 5: any caved. And so there is a world in which

516
00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:38,640
Speaker 5: all of these kind of forces within the Democratic coalition

517
00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:42,000
Speaker 5: can work together against the kind of center right pro

518
00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:44,520
Speaker 5: corporate wing of it. But it's very hard to keep

519
00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:47,040
Speaker 5: that coalition together because there's so much suspicion. And I

520
00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:49,560
Speaker 5: hope one thing that this book does is help readers

521
00:26:49,560 --> 00:26:52,880
Speaker 5: across the kind of democratic spectrum get a better understanding

522
00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:55,280
Speaker 5: of the kind of AOC wing of the party.

523
00:26:55,720 --> 00:26:59,439
Speaker 1: Yeah, that is I think really such an important point.

524
00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:03,720
Speaker 1: It's certainly what I think about when I think about

525
00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:07,320
Speaker 1: all the stuff that's going on under the surface, like

526
00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:09,359
Speaker 1: the docks paddling.

527
00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:09,960
Speaker 2: So I wondered.

528
00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:14,199
Speaker 1: Also, it does seem like this squad started as a

529
00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:22,320
Speaker 1: group four had expanded in twenty twenty, added.

530
00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:24,480
Speaker 4: Corey Bush and Jamal Bowman in twenty twenty.

531
00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:26,119
Speaker 2: Talk me through where they are now.

532
00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:30,239
Speaker 5: In twenty twenty two, Summer Lee, who was elected in

533
00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:33,359
Speaker 5: twenty eighteen to the Pennsylvania State Legislature the same year

534
00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:36,040
Speaker 5: the squad was elected nationally and she was a Pennsylvania

535
00:27:36,080 --> 00:27:38,560
Speaker 5: wide story like, wow, look at Summerlee. And also she

536
00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:41,879
Speaker 5: was elected with Sarah Enamorado, who is now the Allegheny

537
00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:44,879
Speaker 5: County executive, so that they've both risen up together. And

538
00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:48,280
Speaker 5: so summer Lee won despite getting hit with like three

539
00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:52,280
Speaker 5: million dollars in APAC and DMFI Democratic Majority for Israel

540
00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:55,040
Speaker 5: money telling voters that she wasn't a good enough Democrat.

541
00:27:55,600 --> 00:27:59,040
Speaker 5: What I love about that criticism from APAK is not

542
00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:03,080
Speaker 5: only that they supported one hundred plus Republicans you know,

543
00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:07,360
Speaker 5: who were insurrectionists. And then after she wins the primary,

544
00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:10,199
Speaker 5: apag turned around and spent money on behalf of the

545
00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:13,399
Speaker 5: Republican so not just Republicans around the country. They even

546
00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:16,119
Speaker 5: try to get a Republican to beat her in that

547
00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:18,400
Speaker 5: very district where they were saying she wasn't a good

548
00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:20,600
Speaker 5: enough Democrat. So none of this is on the level,

549
00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:22,720
Speaker 5: but not that anybody thought it was to begin with.

550
00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:27,800
Speaker 6: As a Jew myself, the whole idea that somehow Republicans

551
00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:33,840
Speaker 6: are against anti Semitism while supporting a guy who told

552
00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:37,680
Speaker 6: me I was a bad Jew for voting Democrat because

553
00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:40,000
Speaker 6: he's an anti semi And that is one of the

554
00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:43,760
Speaker 6: best anti Semitic tropes you know, is that you know,

555
00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:46,040
Speaker 6: if you don't vote for Israel, you're not a good Jew.

556
00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:49,400
Speaker 2: I mean, it's just sort of mind blowing.

557
00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:52,960
Speaker 5: But anyway, the level of anti Semitism that comes out

558
00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:55,640
Speaker 5: of Trump's mouth is just startling. And when we almost

559
00:28:55,680 --> 00:28:58,600
Speaker 5: like don't even hear it anymore, it's just so blatant

560
00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:01,520
Speaker 5: to see them pretending out they're somehow concerned about that.

561
00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:04,000
Speaker 5: But what Trump says is fine is yeah, it's a

562
00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:06,040
Speaker 5: little bit too much to handle. Then you also had

563
00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:09,320
Speaker 5: in twenty twenty two, Greg Kassar winning an Austin seat,

564
00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:11,000
Speaker 5: and you know a lot of people consider him kind

565
00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:13,840
Speaker 5: of squad adjacent or kind of a squad member, and

566
00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:16,560
Speaker 5: maybe and maybe Becka Ballot, who would be I guess

567
00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:19,720
Speaker 5: the first white member of the squad if you considered

568
00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:22,760
Speaker 5: her and so. But now the question is do they

569
00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:25,480
Speaker 5: shrink radically in size or do they expand in the

570
00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:28,240
Speaker 5: face of this. So you've got APEX threatening to spend

571
00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:31,240
Speaker 5: one hundred million dollars in the twenty twenty four race

572
00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:34,320
Speaker 5: to knock out as many of these squad and squad

573
00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:36,920
Speaker 5: adjacent members as they possibly can. That would be the

574
00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:40,400
Speaker 5: by far, the biggest super Pac spend in congressional history.

575
00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:43,280
Speaker 5: Though they did come in. You know, they and DMFI

576
00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:46,080
Speaker 5: and another alley groups came over with forty plus million

577
00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:48,480
Speaker 5: last time, so jumping to one hundred wouldn't be that

578
00:29:48,520 --> 00:29:49,000
Speaker 5: out of it.

579
00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:53,440
Speaker 1: There's a lot of wanting to primary some of these

580
00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:56,360
Speaker 1: Democrats because they did not vote.

581
00:29:56,760 --> 00:29:58,520
Speaker 2: I mean, I thought it was interesting. I want to

582
00:29:58,560 --> 00:29:59,280
Speaker 2: talk to you about this.

583
00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:03,840
Speaker 1: So there was a vote against anti semitism in the

584
00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:08,040
Speaker 1: House last week and that vote there some people voted present,

585
00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:11,680
Speaker 1: a lot of people voted yes. There were some I

586
00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:15,600
Speaker 1: don't know exactly who voted what, but mostly people voted

587
00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:18,640
Speaker 1: against anti semitism as well they should of course Thomas

588
00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:21,840
Speaker 1: Massey voted now. But then there was another vote there

589
00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:27,400
Speaker 1: Republicans brought up that said anti Zionism is anti Semitism.

590
00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:29,000
Speaker 4: Just straight upset it, Yeah, because.

591
00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:32,120
Speaker 1: The goal here is not about protecting Jews, right, The

592
00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:35,440
Speaker 1: goal here is to get to try to make it

593
00:30:35,480 --> 00:30:38,360
Speaker 1: look like some of these Democrats are anti Semitic.

594
00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:42,440
Speaker 2: That's the goal, right, This is bullshit, And so in

595
00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:44,400
Speaker 2: that vote, this was set.

596
00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:47,920
Speaker 1: Up to make people who are progressives on the left

597
00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:50,800
Speaker 1: look bad. And I just want to sort of speak

598
00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:53,120
Speaker 1: to that for a minute, because you know these people,

599
00:30:53,280 --> 00:30:55,800
Speaker 1: I mean, it's a very tough situation there in but

600
00:30:56,080 --> 00:30:58,280
Speaker 1: this is just yet another target.

601
00:30:58,080 --> 00:31:01,480
Speaker 5: Right, right, And you had people like Jerry Nadler coming

602
00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:05,280
Speaker 5: out and helpfully explaining to the uninitiated it is just

603
00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:07,200
Speaker 5: I think, as he put it, it's either it's either

604
00:31:07,280 --> 00:31:11,280
Speaker 5: factually wrong or it's intellectually disingenuous to make this claim,

605
00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:13,080
Speaker 5: and for some of them it might be both, Like

606
00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:15,720
Speaker 5: you can't underestimate the amount of ignorance that there might

607
00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:17,800
Speaker 5: be over on the other side of the Aisle. But

608
00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:20,600
Speaker 5: for many of them, it's just completely disingenuous, and like

609
00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:24,280
Speaker 5: you said, it's not about doing anything about anti Semitism.

610
00:31:24,280 --> 00:31:25,520
Speaker 4: In fact, it probably.

611
00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:30,640
Speaker 2: Trump voices.

612
00:31:31,040 --> 00:31:33,560
Speaker 1: My word to the Proud Boys is stand back and

613
00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:34,200
Speaker 1: stand by.

614
00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:37,320
Speaker 2: Those are not ourn't people the Proud Boys. When you're

615
00:31:37,320 --> 00:31:39,280
Speaker 2: telling the browd boys to stand.

616
00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:41,480
Speaker 4: Books, yeah, you've kind of lost your privilege to say.

617
00:31:41,520 --> 00:31:43,560
Speaker 4: I think at that point, right, those.

618
00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:45,560
Speaker 2: Guys are not friends to the Jews.

619
00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:48,280
Speaker 1: I mean, it's funny because it's like my grandfather, Howard

620
00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:52,880
Speaker 1: Fast Jewish Communist House on American Activities, sent to jail

621
00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:58,440
Speaker 1: fighting with the certain conservative Jew over like whether we

622
00:31:58,520 --> 00:32:01,360
Speaker 1: get to be called Jews or not, because you know,

623
00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:04,560
Speaker 1: we are not Zions. I mean, I believe in the

624
00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:06,960
Speaker 1: State of Israel one hundred percent and I'm a Jew,

625
00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:07,520
Speaker 1: but I.

626
00:32:07,560 --> 00:32:09,120
Speaker 2: Do not believe that.

627
00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:13,320
Speaker 1: Zionism should be connected to Judaism. It's not the same thing,

628
00:32:13,560 --> 00:32:16,680
Speaker 1: you know, it's conflating two totally different things. And so

629
00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:19,120
Speaker 1: I just think that, you know, if I have to

630
00:32:19,160 --> 00:32:22,960
Speaker 1: fucking fight with that same family for three generations, we're.

631
00:32:22,800 --> 00:32:26,040
Speaker 2: Fighting with each other by dianu, as we say.

632
00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:29,560
Speaker 4: Right, And so going back through the brief history.

633
00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:31,880
Speaker 5: When I was read reporting this book, it was interesting

634
00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:34,920
Speaker 5: to see, you know, how quickly and how dominant this

635
00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:39,840
Speaker 5: issue became. In January twenty nineteen, that's when Mark Mehlman

636
00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:42,760
Speaker 5: stood up Democratic Majority for Israel. And Mark Melmon's a

637
00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:45,920
Speaker 5: long time kind of APAC advisor. He's also a consultant

638
00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:50,360
Speaker 5: for the Yaye Lapede, prominent Israeli politician, and he told

639
00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:54,400
Speaker 5: me that his work against the progressive left in the

640
00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:57,400
Speaker 5: US was aimed at I'm curious for your take on

641
00:32:57,440 --> 00:33:00,240
Speaker 5: his rationale was aimed at defeating that Yahoo and his

642
00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:03,960
Speaker 5: argument was Netanyahu holds up the squad and people like

643
00:33:04,040 --> 00:33:06,520
Speaker 5: them in America and says, you know, this is why

644
00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:09,400
Speaker 5: we can't elect somebody like yere Lapede, and you have

645
00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:12,080
Speaker 5: to stick with me and the far right over in Israel.

646
00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:15,520
Speaker 5: This kind of interesting bank shot, which also is kind

647
00:33:15,520 --> 00:33:17,760
Speaker 5: of an admission that the work he's doing in the

648
00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:21,000
Speaker 5: US is on behalf of a foreign agent, which is

649
00:33:21,120 --> 00:33:24,560
Speaker 5: completely another question. It's like, okay, well, that's interesting. They

650
00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:28,080
Speaker 5: launched DMFI in twenty nineteen in direct response to Ylan

651
00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:32,719
Speaker 5: Omar and Rashida Talib being sworn into Congress and josh Gottenheimer,

652
00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:35,760
Speaker 5: who was kind of connected with no labels and founds

653
00:33:35,840 --> 00:33:38,720
Speaker 5: the problem Solverri's caucus in the US House makes it

654
00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:41,560
Speaker 5: his mission to kind of marginalize as much as possible

655
00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:44,480
Speaker 5: to leave in omar, and so you saw that developing

656
00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:48,000
Speaker 5: very early and really never taking a break from then

657
00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:48,840
Speaker 5: up until now.

658
00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:52,560
Speaker 1: This was so interesting. I really appreciate you, Ryan. I

659
00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:53,440
Speaker 1: hope you'll come back.

660
00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:54,160
Speaker 4: I would love to.

661
00:33:56,360 --> 00:33:59,960
Speaker 1: Steven Lebitski is a professor of government at Harvard University

662
00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:03,600
Speaker 1: an author of Tyranny of the Minority, How to Reverse

663
00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:07,160
Speaker 1: an Authoritarian Turn and Forge Democracy for All.

664
00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:10,799
Speaker 2: Welcome Too Fast Politics.

665
00:34:10,040 --> 00:34:11,480
Speaker 4: Steve, Thanks for having me.

666
00:34:11,640 --> 00:34:14,120
Speaker 1: I want to talk to you about what it means

667
00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:17,759
Speaker 1: to have a political party that no longer believes in

668
00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:22,480
Speaker 1: the tenants of democracy, because this is something I've observed

669
00:34:22,880 --> 00:34:26,160
Speaker 1: casually and then I heard you talking about it on

670
00:34:26,280 --> 00:34:31,120
Speaker 1: c SPAN because I'm very exciting, and it was like, Oh,

671
00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:35,400
Speaker 1: that's exactly what I have been casually observing in a

672
00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:39,759
Speaker 1: more intellectual framing. So explain to me a little bit

673
00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:42,879
Speaker 1: about what that looks like and what these tenants are.

674
00:34:43,200 --> 00:34:45,759
Speaker 4: Sure. Well, first of all, I'm so excited that you

675
00:34:45,880 --> 00:34:47,799
Speaker 4: heard about Sea spit At didn't begin any bit.

676
00:34:49,640 --> 00:34:50,960
Speaker 2: It's me. It's just me.

677
00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:56,400
Speaker 4: Secondly, this is a really big deal. Democracies cannot survive

678
00:34:57,200 --> 00:35:00,680
Speaker 4: if one of two parties in a two parties system

679
00:35:00,960 --> 00:35:04,040
Speaker 4: is not committed to democracy. This is a big problem

680
00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:06,680
Speaker 4: that I think as a society we have not come

681
00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:09,240
Speaker 4: to grips with because it's more than just Donald Trump.

682
00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:13,280
Speaker 4: In our book Tyranny of the Minority, we argue, drawing

683
00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:16,520
Speaker 4: on the Great twentieth century put beside this que lens

684
00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:20,320
Speaker 4: that for a party to be committed to democracy, For

685
00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:22,080
Speaker 4: us to be able to say that a party is

686
00:35:22,080 --> 00:35:26,520
Speaker 4: committed to democracy, it needs to do three really basic things.

687
00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:30,040
Speaker 4: First of all, the party needs to accept the results

688
00:35:30,080 --> 00:35:34,520
Speaker 4: of elections, win to lose. Needs to unambiguous publicly accept

689
00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:38,080
Speaker 4: the results of elections, win to lose. Secondly, party needs

690
00:35:38,120 --> 00:35:43,320
Speaker 4: to unambiguously renounce and denounce the use of political violence.

691
00:35:43,560 --> 00:35:48,040
Speaker 4: And third party needs to break completely and unambiguously with

692
00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:52,400
Speaker 4: anti democratic extremist forces. So parties need to accept elections,

693
00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:55,240
Speaker 4: they need to reject violence, and they need to break

694
00:35:55,280 --> 00:35:58,600
Speaker 4: with anti democratic extremists. When Danie and I wrote How

695
00:35:58,640 --> 00:36:01,719
Speaker 4: Democracies Died, I was public just twenty eighteen. We wrote

696
00:36:01,719 --> 00:36:05,440
Speaker 4: it in twenty seventeen, we believed that the Republican Party

697
00:36:05,600 --> 00:36:08,640
Speaker 4: was still committed to democracy. We thought it'd made a

698
00:36:08,719 --> 00:36:12,120
Speaker 4: huge mistake in allowing Donald Trump to be their nominee,

699
00:36:12,120 --> 00:36:14,720
Speaker 4: but that the party was committed to democracy. But since

700
00:36:14,840 --> 00:36:18,400
Speaker 4: twenty twenty, it's become clear that that is no longer

701
00:36:18,440 --> 00:36:22,080
Speaker 4: the case. The bulk of the Republican Party no longer

702
00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:24,400
Speaker 4: checks off any of those three boxes.

703
00:36:24,680 --> 00:36:25,839
Speaker 2: So interesting.

704
00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:29,200
Speaker 1: One of the things that I think enables people not

705
00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:35,040
Speaker 1: to see this slide into autocracy that the entire party

706
00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:40,360
Speaker 1: has engaged in or been victim to, however you want

707
00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:43,759
Speaker 1: to give them credit, which I do not, is that

708
00:36:43,880 --> 00:36:47,440
Speaker 1: I don't think and again this is like my own subpositions,

709
00:36:47,480 --> 00:36:53,279
Speaker 1: but I don't think they got here because they were malevolent.

710
00:36:53,480 --> 00:36:57,160
Speaker 1: I actually think they got here because they were cowardly.

711
00:36:57,880 --> 00:37:00,600
Speaker 1: Not that that matters, but I mean, do you think

712
00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:04,200
Speaker 1: that's true? And it's like, there's been an important slide

713
00:37:04,360 --> 00:37:07,279
Speaker 1: since Trump was president, but then it's been worse since

714
00:37:07,320 --> 00:37:08,560
Speaker 1: Trump has not been president.

715
00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:11,320
Speaker 4: On Yeah, it has radicalized, it has gotten worse. I

716
00:37:11,360 --> 00:37:14,080
Speaker 4: think a lot of us assumed that after the election,

717
00:37:14,320 --> 00:37:19,040
Speaker 4: especially after January sixteentynty one, that the Republicans would sort

718
00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:22,319
Speaker 4: of deradicalize or come back down to earth, and that

719
00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:26,800
Speaker 4: has not happened. I think your basic pre subposition is correct, Molly.

720
00:37:26,840 --> 00:37:31,200
Speaker 4: It's not malevolence on the part of most Republicans. I

721
00:37:31,239 --> 00:37:35,560
Speaker 4: think Trump is a is an openly authoritarian figure. But

722
00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:40,839
Speaker 4: most Republican leaders even today, don't want to kill democracy there.

723
00:37:41,120 --> 00:37:43,359
Speaker 4: That's not what they're setting out to do. What they

724
00:37:43,719 --> 00:37:46,359
Speaker 4: want to do is keep their careers golled. They want

725
00:37:46,440 --> 00:37:50,200
Speaker 4: to get ahead in Republican politics. That's their job. They

726
00:37:50,239 --> 00:37:53,399
Speaker 4: have calculated and this is a serious problem, but they've

727
00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:56,440
Speaker 4: calculated that in order to get ahead, in order to

728
00:37:56,600 --> 00:38:00,840
Speaker 4: keep their job, in order to aspire to a higher office,

729
00:38:00,840 --> 00:38:04,120
Speaker 4: in order to maybe keep from getting shouted down by

730
00:38:04,120 --> 00:38:07,720
Speaker 4: the base or Fox News, that they need to enable

731
00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:12,480
Speaker 4: Donald Trump. They need to be complicit in this authoritarian urn.

732
00:38:12,600 --> 00:38:15,319
Speaker 4: So in the book, in Tyranny of the Minority, we

733
00:38:15,360 --> 00:38:18,360
Speaker 4: have a chapter on what is called semi loyal Democrats,

734
00:38:18,360 --> 00:38:19,880
Speaker 4: and this is small D democrats.

735
00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:23,000
Speaker 2: Can you explain the difference between small D Democrats?

736
00:38:23,040 --> 00:38:26,239
Speaker 4: Just for my dad, A large D Democrat is a

737
00:38:26,239 --> 00:38:28,560
Speaker 4: member of the Democratic Party. I'm not talking about the

738
00:38:28,600 --> 00:38:31,520
Speaker 4: Democratic Party. I'm talking about democrats in the sense of

739
00:38:31,640 --> 00:38:36,000
Speaker 4: are you committed to democracy or not? And a semi

740
00:38:36,160 --> 00:38:38,880
Speaker 4: loyal democrat is someone who meets all three criteria that

741
00:38:38,960 --> 00:38:42,160
Speaker 4: I just talked about. Always accept someone, always rejects violence,

742
00:38:42,960 --> 00:38:47,720
Speaker 4: always rejects anti democratic extremists. Van Lenz, the Spanish political scientist,

743
00:38:48,080 --> 00:38:51,759
Speaker 4: use the term semi loyal democrat to describe someone who's

744
00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:56,080
Speaker 4: a regular politician, not someone storming the capital on January sixth,

745
00:38:56,080 --> 00:38:58,480
Speaker 4: but rather one of the folks in a suit inside

746
00:38:58,480 --> 00:39:01,840
Speaker 4: the capital on January sixth, looks, dresses, talks like a

747
00:39:01,880 --> 00:39:10,680
Speaker 4: regular politician, but is willing to cooperate with condone enable authoritarians.

748
00:39:10,840 --> 00:39:14,920
Speaker 4: Authoritarians like Trump cannot kill democracy by themselves. They require

749
00:39:14,920 --> 00:39:20,400
Speaker 4: accomplices among mainstream politicians. And that is what the vast

750
00:39:20,440 --> 00:39:24,840
Speaker 4: bulk of Republican leaders, from Mitch McConnell to Lindsey Graham

751
00:39:25,000 --> 00:39:28,319
Speaker 4: to Kevin McCarthy to Alice stephonic and you can go

752
00:39:28,360 --> 00:39:30,759
Speaker 4: down and down and down the line. That's what they've done.

753
00:39:30,800 --> 00:39:34,319
Speaker 4: They have quietly enabled Trump in different ways. They have

754
00:39:34,440 --> 00:39:38,640
Speaker 4: condoned his behavior, they have protected him. The Senate vote

755
00:39:38,640 --> 00:39:42,000
Speaker 4: to acquit him after the second impeachment was crucial because

756
00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:45,000
Speaker 4: he would not be a candidate today had they vote

757
00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:48,640
Speaker 4: simply voted to convict him. It's that enabling behavior which

758
00:39:48,719 --> 00:39:52,000
Speaker 4: is done. You could say it's political cowardice. There's also

759
00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:55,480
Speaker 4: an increasing amount of information coming out, and we see

760
00:39:55,520 --> 00:39:58,520
Speaker 4: this in both Admit Romney's biography that came out several

761
00:39:58,520 --> 00:40:01,440
Speaker 4: months ago, and also in Chinese book is about to

762
00:40:01,440 --> 00:40:04,239
Speaker 4: come out that many Republican leaders not only that they

763
00:40:04,239 --> 00:40:07,160
Speaker 4: fear a primary, or that they fear you know that

764
00:40:07,360 --> 00:40:10,160
Speaker 4: somebody on Fox News is going to criticize that they

765
00:40:10,200 --> 00:40:14,200
Speaker 4: actually fear physical retribution if they they take god Trump,

766
00:40:14,280 --> 00:40:17,160
Speaker 4: if they voted to convict Trump, for example, or voted

767
00:40:17,200 --> 00:40:19,759
Speaker 4: to impeach him in the House, they feed, or that

768
00:40:19,920 --> 00:40:22,560
Speaker 4: something would happen to them or their families, their kids.

769
00:40:22,760 --> 00:40:26,080
Speaker 4: There is a level of violence percolating the Republican base

770
00:40:26,400 --> 00:40:29,880
Speaker 4: that is affecting the behavior of Republican leaders. It's fear

771
00:40:29,920 --> 00:40:31,360
Speaker 4: in a very real sense.

772
00:40:31,520 --> 00:40:34,920
Speaker 2: So the original sin here is that quote from the

773
00:40:34,960 --> 00:40:38,680
Speaker 2: Republican in the New York Times, the unnamed Republican who

774
00:40:38,760 --> 00:40:44,040
Speaker 2: said in twenty twenty, he's just playing golf. Let's just

775
00:40:44,160 --> 00:40:44,719
Speaker 2: humor him.

776
00:40:45,120 --> 00:40:47,520
Speaker 1: It's not the original sin, but it's one of the

777
00:40:47,600 --> 00:40:49,560
Speaker 1: later original sense.

778
00:40:49,719 --> 00:40:51,840
Speaker 4: They've been committed a sin since he came down the

779
00:40:51,880 --> 00:40:55,560
Speaker 4: Golden Escape. Yeah right, Oh, you know, take him seriously,

780
00:40:55,600 --> 00:40:58,799
Speaker 4: don't take them literally. He'll grow in the office. It's

781
00:40:58,840 --> 00:41:03,200
Speaker 4: not that ads doing this from the very beginning.

782
00:41:03,560 --> 00:41:05,920
Speaker 1: Can you talk a little bit about sort of how

783
00:41:05,960 --> 00:41:10,320
Speaker 1: you got into studying democracy, because it's really interesting.

784
00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:12,880
Speaker 4: I'm a political scientist. At my day job is to

785
00:41:12,880 --> 00:41:15,759
Speaker 4: study Latin American politics. I've been a student of Latin

786
00:41:15,760 --> 00:41:19,000
Speaker 4: American politics since the nineteen eighties. And I got into

787
00:41:19,040 --> 00:41:22,200
Speaker 4: this game as it literally as a teenager in college

788
00:41:22,440 --> 00:41:25,399
Speaker 4: at a time when Central America was in civil war

789
00:41:25,800 --> 00:41:29,360
Speaker 4: and when South America was just coming out from under

790
00:41:29,520 --> 00:41:33,560
Speaker 4: the most brutal period of military deputation in that region's history.

791
00:41:33,840 --> 00:41:39,200
Speaker 4: And so my introduction to democracy was studying the absence

792
00:41:39,239 --> 00:41:42,760
Speaker 4: of democracy and the achievement of democracy at great cost

793
00:41:42,920 --> 00:41:44,560
Speaker 4: in Latin America in the nineteen eighties.

794
00:41:44,600 --> 00:41:45,799
Speaker 3: And I learned my.

795
00:41:46,160 --> 00:41:50,560
Speaker 4: Teachers, my professors, and their colleagues were people who had

796
00:41:50,600 --> 00:41:55,040
Speaker 4: directly suffered at friends and cousins and brothers and sisters,

797
00:41:55,160 --> 00:41:57,880
Speaker 4: who had been exiled and jailed and tortured, in some

798
00:41:57,960 --> 00:42:01,359
Speaker 4: cases disappeared in life in America and I learned from

799
00:42:01,360 --> 00:42:05,400
Speaker 4: them directly what it was like to lose a democracy,

800
00:42:05,480 --> 00:42:08,840
Speaker 4: and that those lessons, for whatever reason, stuck with me

801
00:42:09,200 --> 00:42:12,919
Speaker 4: my whole career, and I've been a student of democracy

802
00:42:12,960 --> 00:42:16,600
Speaker 4: and committed to learning how to preserve a democracy, how

803
00:42:16,600 --> 00:42:19,920
Speaker 4: to not lose a democracy again my whole career. What

804
00:42:19,960 --> 00:42:22,400
Speaker 4: I did not expect was that I would be studying

805
00:42:22,400 --> 00:42:24,479
Speaker 4: this in the United States and I would be talking

806
00:42:24,560 --> 00:42:27,720
Speaker 4: about this in the United States. It's only in twenty fifteen,

807
00:42:27,760 --> 00:42:31,319
Speaker 4: twenty sixteen, maybe a little early. I think we saw

808
00:42:31,719 --> 00:42:33,880
Speaker 4: glimpses of this with the Tea Party, but really with

809
00:42:33,920 --> 00:42:36,920
Speaker 4: the rise of Trump, I started to see my co author,

810
00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:40,120
Speaker 4: who studies the breakdown of democracy in Europe in the

811
00:42:40,120 --> 00:42:44,200
Speaker 4: twenties and thirties, we started to see and hear language

812
00:42:44,200 --> 00:42:46,799
Speaker 4: and behavior in the United States in twenty fifteen and

813
00:42:46,800 --> 00:42:50,560
Speaker 4: sixteen that we'd seen in our own regions, that I'd

814
00:42:50,600 --> 00:42:53,080
Speaker 4: seen in Latin America. And I started to feel like

815
00:42:53,200 --> 00:42:56,560
Speaker 4: I'd seen this movie before and that it doesn't end well.

816
00:42:56,960 --> 00:43:00,720
Speaker 4: And so it was that that's what got me early

817
00:43:00,760 --> 00:43:05,279
Speaker 4: on in twenty sixteen thinking about the coming crisis of

818
00:43:05,320 --> 00:43:07,440
Speaker 4: democracy in the United States. We started to see the

819
00:43:07,480 --> 00:43:11,240
Speaker 4: warning signs, And I never ever imagined that I would

820
00:43:11,239 --> 00:43:13,880
Speaker 4: think about applying lessons that I learned in Latin America

821
00:43:14,040 --> 00:43:15,960
Speaker 4: to the United States. But here we are.

822
00:43:16,440 --> 00:43:18,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, do you see similarities there?

823
00:43:19,440 --> 00:43:23,320
Speaker 4: Sure, there are a bunch of similarities. First and foremost,

824
00:43:23,400 --> 00:43:27,160
Speaker 4: I mean, Donald Trump would be a great tinpot dictator.

825
00:43:27,239 --> 00:43:30,480
Speaker 4: We have in the United States, very many figures like Trump.

826
00:43:30,640 --> 00:43:34,600
Speaker 4: Trump is a is an authoritarian through and through. He's

827
00:43:34,640 --> 00:43:37,440
Speaker 4: someone who thinks that who thought when he came to

828
00:43:37,480 --> 00:43:41,839
Speaker 4: the presidency that all of the machinery of government and

829
00:43:41,880 --> 00:43:46,840
Speaker 4: the agencies of the state ought to be deployable for

830
00:43:46,960 --> 00:43:50,160
Speaker 4: his own personal and political use. That's not not even

831
00:43:50,160 --> 00:43:54,600
Speaker 4: addicted tinpot dictators like Somosa or Tohieu in mid twentieth

832
00:43:54,600 --> 00:43:57,760
Speaker 4: century Latin America, they were able to use the entire

833
00:43:58,280 --> 00:44:02,280
Speaker 4: state apparatus, the entire machine government for their own personal

834
00:44:02,560 --> 00:44:05,840
Speaker 4: and political ends. And that's what Trump's instincts are. It

835
00:44:05,880 --> 00:44:07,919
Speaker 4: took us a while to come to grips with that here,

836
00:44:08,000 --> 00:44:11,640
Speaker 4: because most of our politicians, even our nastiest politicians, sort

837
00:44:11,640 --> 00:44:14,319
Speaker 4: of respect that they can't do whatever the hell they

838
00:44:14,360 --> 00:44:17,080
Speaker 4: want with the state. But that's not Trump. Another thing

839
00:44:17,120 --> 00:44:19,880
Speaker 4: about Latin America is if you go back to the

840
00:44:19,960 --> 00:44:25,680
Speaker 4: nineteen seventies, we see what happens when politics becomes extremely polarized,

841
00:44:25,840 --> 00:44:29,200
Speaker 4: when parties begin to see one another not as rivals,

842
00:44:29,280 --> 00:44:31,840
Speaker 4: not as people they disagree with and don't like or

843
00:44:31,840 --> 00:44:34,360
Speaker 4: don't like their policies, but when they see their rivals

844
00:44:34,400 --> 00:44:38,680
Speaker 4: as an existential threat, as enemies, as forces that are

845
00:44:38,880 --> 00:44:42,719
Speaker 4: so noxious that we need to use any means necessary

846
00:44:43,000 --> 00:44:46,160
Speaker 4: to prevent them. American politics has been there before. We

847
00:44:46,160 --> 00:44:48,040
Speaker 4: were there in the eighteen fifties. We were there in

848
00:44:48,080 --> 00:44:51,760
Speaker 4: the seventeen nineties, but nobody alive in the United States

849
00:44:51,800 --> 00:44:55,520
Speaker 4: remembers our parties being so polarized that they can no

850
00:44:55,600 --> 00:44:59,240
Speaker 4: longer accept the other side winning that the nineteen sixties

851
00:44:59,320 --> 00:45:02,200
Speaker 4: seventies he didn't and well, and in many cases in

852
00:45:02,239 --> 00:45:06,400
Speaker 4: military dictatorship and heavy repression. And that's where we've gotten

853
00:45:06,520 --> 00:45:08,759
Speaker 4: in the second decade of the twenty first century in

854
00:45:08,760 --> 00:45:12,399
Speaker 4: the United States. I'm not predicting civil war or military too,

855
00:45:12,440 --> 00:45:14,719
Speaker 4: but we are a polarization.

856
00:45:15,160 --> 00:45:17,920
Speaker 1: One of the problems I've had throughout this period is

857
00:45:17,960 --> 00:45:20,399
Speaker 1: that there has been on the left and the right,

858
00:45:20,480 --> 00:45:24,479
Speaker 1: there has been a sort of hope wish casting, which

859
00:45:24,560 --> 00:45:28,480
Speaker 1: hasn't worked of this fantasy that eventually things.

860
00:45:28,280 --> 00:45:29,360
Speaker 2: Will go back to normal.

861
00:45:29,600 --> 00:45:32,440
Speaker 1: Right, Maybe then there's a conversation about how normal was

862
00:45:32,480 --> 00:45:37,080
Speaker 1: never good, but that eventually, you know, the norms will

863
00:45:37,160 --> 00:45:39,520
Speaker 1: the guardrails. I mean that's my favorite. You know, the

864
00:45:39,520 --> 00:45:43,319
Speaker 1: guard rails will hold. The guardrails have held. But we're

865
00:45:43,360 --> 00:45:47,120
Speaker 1: looking down the barrel of a Trump nomination, right, I

866
00:45:47,160 --> 00:45:50,719
Speaker 1: mean bearing some kind of media or Trump is going

867
00:45:50,800 --> 00:45:53,560
Speaker 1: to be nominated, So we're going to have another year

868
00:45:54,000 --> 00:45:59,799
Speaker 1: of real anti democratic speech and ideas. And so even

869
00:45:59,840 --> 00:46:02,000
Speaker 1: if he doesn't win, and if he does win, I

870
00:46:02,000 --> 00:46:05,239
Speaker 1: think we're all just completely fucked. But if he doesn't win,

871
00:46:05,360 --> 00:46:09,960
Speaker 1: we still will be one step closer to autocracy, right,

872
00:46:10,040 --> 00:46:10,560
Speaker 1: I mean.

873
00:46:10,560 --> 00:46:13,359
Speaker 4: There's a slow process. So we do have a very

874
00:46:13,760 --> 00:46:18,520
Speaker 4: strong constitutional order, a very stable democracy, strong institutions, and

875
00:46:18,560 --> 00:46:21,279
Speaker 4: a strong opposition, all of which serves us well. So

876
00:46:21,320 --> 00:46:25,200
Speaker 4: we're not immediately going to slide into Russia or Venezuela

877
00:46:25,719 --> 00:46:27,759
Speaker 4: or even hungry. We do have a lot of guard

878
00:46:28,000 --> 00:46:31,720
Speaker 4: but guardrails eventually wear down if you assault them over

879
00:46:31,840 --> 00:46:35,920
Speaker 4: and over again. And we have both informal and formal guardrails.

880
00:46:35,920 --> 00:46:39,680
Speaker 4: Informal guard rails are the norms of mutual toleration, and

881
00:46:39,760 --> 00:46:42,560
Speaker 4: forbearans that we write about how democracies die, those have

882
00:46:42,640 --> 00:46:46,960
Speaker 4: been pretty much beaten to smithereeds. We also have important

883
00:46:47,080 --> 00:46:52,600
Speaker 4: formal guardrails the Constitution, a very strong independent judiciary, federalism,

884
00:46:53,040 --> 00:46:56,720
Speaker 4: Bill of Rights. Those things, for the most part, have help,

885
00:46:57,200 --> 00:47:01,080
Speaker 4: but we have tested them in ways that we never

886
00:47:01,200 --> 00:47:06,360
Speaker 4: ever imagine. I'm considered a pessimist. Some people consider me

887
00:47:06,360 --> 00:47:10,040
Speaker 4: an alarmist about the state of US democracy. I never

888
00:47:10,160 --> 00:47:12,799
Speaker 4: expected that there would be a serious effort by an

889
00:47:12,800 --> 00:47:16,880
Speaker 4: incumbent president that would almost succeed to overturn the results

890
00:47:16,920 --> 00:47:19,359
Speaker 4: of an election. And yet there we were. We had

891
00:47:19,400 --> 00:47:22,200
Speaker 4: in the summer of twenty twenty political deaths. People kill

892
00:47:22,239 --> 00:47:25,600
Speaker 4: each other on the streets for political reasons. So the

893
00:47:25,640 --> 00:47:30,240
Speaker 4: guardrails held at some level, but they clearly have been weakening,

894
00:47:30,400 --> 00:47:34,560
Speaker 4: and they're continued to weaken. And another Trump presidency, it's

895
00:47:34,600 --> 00:47:38,319
Speaker 4: impossible to predict exactly what would happen, but there's no

896
00:47:38,560 --> 00:47:41,680
Speaker 4: question that Trump learned a bunch of lessons from his

897
00:47:41,719 --> 00:47:44,799
Speaker 4: first presidency. He learned that he really needs to go

898
00:47:44,880 --> 00:47:48,640
Speaker 4: out and purge and pack the administration in order to

899
00:47:48,640 --> 00:47:52,080
Speaker 4: wield state institutions the way that he wants to, He

900
00:47:52,120 --> 00:47:52,960
Speaker 4: will try to do that.

901
00:47:53,000 --> 00:47:54,040
Speaker 3: He will throw.

902
00:47:54,040 --> 00:47:57,160
Speaker 4: Many, many more punches at our democratic system than he

903
00:47:57,200 --> 00:48:00,680
Speaker 4: did the first time around. The Republican Party, we know,

904
00:48:01,440 --> 00:48:05,520
Speaker 4: very very clearly will back him with much greater loyalty

905
00:48:05,920 --> 00:48:08,719
Speaker 4: than in the past, because all of the dissidents in

906
00:48:08,800 --> 00:48:12,160
Speaker 4: the party have essentially left. There are very few remaining,

907
00:48:12,520 --> 00:48:14,920
Speaker 4: and so you know how much damage will do, how

908
00:48:15,000 --> 00:48:18,080
Speaker 4: many of those punches will land, how much damage will

909
00:48:18,120 --> 00:48:21,400
Speaker 4: be done when he lands these blows very hard to predict,

910
00:48:21,440 --> 00:48:24,560
Speaker 4: but I think the second presidency will be much much worse,

911
00:48:24,960 --> 00:48:26,439
Speaker 4: much more dangerous than the first one.

912
00:48:26,480 --> 00:48:31,279
Speaker 1: I think another year of Trump campaigning will further radicalize

913
00:48:31,320 --> 00:48:35,319
Speaker 1: the Republican Party and make them more anti democratic.

914
00:48:35,520 --> 00:48:37,959
Speaker 4: Think about what we're getting used to, right, it's now

915
00:48:38,040 --> 00:48:42,560
Speaker 4: become socialized in the Republican subculture. Among two thirds of

916
00:48:42,600 --> 00:48:47,279
Speaker 4: Republicans that the twenty twenty election was still and that

917
00:48:47,400 --> 00:48:52,160
Speaker 4: it's okay to reject the results of elections again the

918
00:48:52,200 --> 00:48:56,200
Speaker 4: cardinal rule of democracy. Only way democracy works is if

919
00:48:56,280 --> 00:48:59,400
Speaker 4: all the major political parties accept the results of elections,

920
00:48:59,520 --> 00:49:02,840
Speaker 4: whether they win or lose. And what Trump twenty twenty

921
00:49:03,160 --> 00:49:07,360
Speaker 4: and subsequent has done is socialized within the Republican Party

922
00:49:07,840 --> 00:49:10,719
Speaker 4: is break that norm right, is say that not only

923
00:49:10,800 --> 00:49:13,000
Speaker 4: was the election stolen, but it's okay to reject the

924
00:49:13,080 --> 00:49:17,640
Speaker 4: results of elections. And now the Republican Party is rallying

925
00:49:17,640 --> 00:49:19,640
Speaker 4: behind his I agree with you. He is almost certain

926
00:49:19,719 --> 00:49:24,320
Speaker 4: to nominate a president who tried to overturn the results

927
00:49:24,360 --> 00:49:26,880
Speaker 4: in the election, who tried to effectively lead a whop,

928
00:49:27,320 --> 00:49:32,320
Speaker 4: who says openly that he will use the Justice Department

929
00:49:32,360 --> 00:49:34,879
Speaker 4: to go after his rivals. Let me smike a point here.

930
00:49:35,080 --> 00:49:39,320
Speaker 4: I can't think of any candidate in any competitive political

931
00:49:39,400 --> 00:49:43,040
Speaker 4: system since World War Two that is as openly nakedly

932
00:49:43,120 --> 00:49:47,839
Speaker 4: authoritarian promising to engage in authoritary behavior as openly as

933
00:49:47,880 --> 00:49:51,720
Speaker 4: Donald Trump. Not Victor Orban, not Air Towan, not open

934
00:49:51,760 --> 00:49:55,000
Speaker 4: when he was first elected, not Ulu Chavez. None of

935
00:49:55,040 --> 00:49:59,640
Speaker 4: these guys were as openly telling voters as openly as

936
00:49:59,680 --> 00:50:02,560
Speaker 4: Donald Trump how authoritarian they're going to be. Most of

937
00:50:02,520 --> 00:50:05,480
Speaker 4: them hight it. Trump doesn't even hide it. So Republicans

938
00:50:05,520 --> 00:50:09,080
Speaker 4: are getting used not only to not accepting results, not

939
00:50:09,120 --> 00:50:12,319
Speaker 4: only to not believing electual results, but they're getting used

940
00:50:12,320 --> 00:50:16,440
Speaker 4: to backing a candidate who's openly authoritarian. You got to

941
00:50:16,440 --> 00:50:19,040
Speaker 4: go back to the nineteen thirties to find this kind

942
00:50:19,080 --> 00:50:21,840
Speaker 4: of behavior in Western democracies.

943
00:50:21,440 --> 00:50:24,320
Speaker 2: And it's not good. I did not end well for

944
00:50:24,480 --> 00:50:29,719
Speaker 2: my people. No, Steven, thank you so much for joining us.

945
00:50:29,960 --> 00:50:33,440
Speaker 4: Thanks for having me pleasure.

946
00:50:33,600 --> 00:50:38,920
Speaker 1: No moment, Wick Wilson, our special guest for fuckery.

947
00:50:39,400 --> 00:50:41,600
Speaker 2: Do you want to know what my moment of fuckery is?

948
00:50:41,800 --> 00:50:42,880
Speaker 3: I do, go ahead.

949
00:50:43,239 --> 00:50:47,439
Speaker 1: Mine is the Great State of Texas. I mean that ironically,

950
00:50:47,600 --> 00:50:53,759
Speaker 1: Ken Maxton, he is suing a pregnant woman to make

951
00:50:53,760 --> 00:50:56,799
Speaker 1: sure she doesn't have an abortion, despite the fact that

952
00:50:57,040 --> 00:51:00,040
Speaker 1: her baby's going to die if he is about to die.

953
00:51:00,280 --> 00:51:01,120
Speaker 2: Or maybe dead.

954
00:51:01,840 --> 00:51:05,680
Speaker 1: Forcing a woman to carry a dead or dying baby

955
00:51:06,360 --> 00:51:11,160
Speaker 1: because of life. Again, I could read this, but it's

956
00:51:11,480 --> 00:51:14,200
Speaker 1: just Ken Paxton shoots back with more.

957
00:51:14,320 --> 00:51:17,040
Speaker 2: You're not allowed to have control of your own body.

958
00:51:17,239 --> 00:51:21,840
Speaker 1: And for that, Ken Paxton and his band of Republicans

959
00:51:22,280 --> 00:51:26,080
Speaker 1: in the gynecological chair, they are my moment of fuckery.

960
00:51:26,040 --> 00:51:29,240
Speaker 3: And rightly so. My moment of fuckery are the college

961
00:51:29,239 --> 00:51:33,200
Speaker 3: presidents of Harvard, MIT and Penn. Now, look, I am

962
00:51:33,239 --> 00:51:35,800
Speaker 3: not an e least stophonic fanboy by any stretch of

963
00:51:35,840 --> 00:51:39,120
Speaker 3: the imagination. She's the Gretchen Wieners pick me girl, of

964
00:51:39,280 --> 00:51:43,359
Speaker 3: Republican politics. But when she asked them this week, individually

965
00:51:43,440 --> 00:51:46,720
Speaker 3: and collectively if calling for the genocide of the Jewish

966
00:51:46,800 --> 00:51:50,120
Speaker 3: people violated their speech codes and their harassment codes on

967
00:51:50,160 --> 00:51:53,120
Speaker 3: their universities, every single one of those people hemmed and

968
00:51:53,239 --> 00:51:58,120
Speaker 3: hawed and smirked and gave smug, discursive, evasive answers. It

969
00:51:58,360 --> 00:52:02,200
Speaker 3: weirdly united America in a weird moment, left right and

970
00:52:02,320 --> 00:52:06,839
Speaker 3: center of absolute loathing of how these university presidents who

971
00:52:06,960 --> 00:52:10,839
Speaker 3: if someone said I want genocide for all trans Americans,

972
00:52:10,960 --> 00:52:15,839
Speaker 3: or genocide for all African Americans, or genocide for indigenous

973
00:52:15,880 --> 00:52:19,640
Speaker 3: people or anything close to that, they would be expelled

974
00:52:19,680 --> 00:52:22,279
Speaker 3: and thrown off campus in a hot second. But somehow

975
00:52:22,320 --> 00:52:28,200
Speaker 3: it requires these elaborate, jesuitical answers so baroque and complex

976
00:52:28,239 --> 00:52:31,279
Speaker 3: and evasive when it comes to saying it's not cool

977
00:52:31,320 --> 00:52:33,680
Speaker 3: for anyone on our campuses to call for the genocide

978
00:52:33,680 --> 00:52:36,080
Speaker 3: of the Jewish people. That's how you get the genocide

979
00:52:36,080 --> 00:52:39,040
Speaker 3: of the Jewish people, you Fox, that's my moment of fuckery.

980
00:52:40,520 --> 00:52:41,840
Speaker 2: Thank you, Rick Wilson.

981
00:52:42,360 --> 00:52:45,280
Speaker 3: A lot of fucks in the show today. Sorry about that, folks.

982
00:52:45,640 --> 00:52:46,400
Speaker 2: People love it.

983
00:52:47,040 --> 00:52:51,359
Speaker 3: I think, all right, guys.

984
00:52:52,000 --> 00:52:55,359
Speaker 1: That's it for this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in

985
00:52:55,400 --> 00:52:58,640
Speaker 1: every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday to hear the best minds

986
00:52:58,640 --> 00:53:01,840
Speaker 1: in politics makes sense of all this chaos. If you

987
00:53:01,960 --> 00:53:04,640
Speaker 1: enjoyed what you've heard, please send it to a friend

988
00:53:04,719 --> 00:53:08,280
Speaker 1: and keep the conversation going. And again, thanks for listening.