1 00:00:08,520 --> 00:00:21,279 Speaker 1: Bodybags with Joseph Scott Morgan. In this old world, there's 2 00:00:21,320 --> 00:00:24,680 Speaker 1: not too many things that I value more than sleep. 3 00:00:25,800 --> 00:00:27,479 Speaker 1: It seems like the older I get, the more I 4 00:00:27,520 --> 00:00:31,840 Speaker 1: like it. That time that you can snuggle down your bed, 5 00:00:32,360 --> 00:00:36,519 Speaker 1: be warm, comfortable, forget the day that you've left behind, 6 00:00:37,760 --> 00:00:45,440 Speaker 1: and hopefully waked the next morning and be rested. But 7 00:00:45,560 --> 00:00:51,000 Speaker 1: for Christopher Osborne, he never woke up and went to 8 00:00:51,040 --> 00:00:56,680 Speaker 1: bed one night, and maybe, just maybe the last thing 9 00:00:56,720 --> 00:01:01,360 Speaker 1: that he heard was that hammered on the thirty eight 10 00:01:01,440 --> 00:01:09,400 Speaker 1: special Revolver in his life ended. Today, we're going to 11 00:01:09,480 --> 00:01:16,880 Speaker 1: talk about the home set of doctor Christopher Osborne. I'm 12 00:01:16,959 --> 00:01:25,720 Speaker 1: Joseph Scott Morgan, and this is Body Backs with me. 13 00:01:25,800 --> 00:01:29,959 Speaker 1: Today is Jackie Howard, executive producer of Crime Stories when 14 00:01:30,080 --> 00:01:34,240 Speaker 1: Nancy Grace, Jackie, I don't know about you, but I 15 00:01:34,319 --> 00:01:38,000 Speaker 1: sure do like bedtime. I love laying down my bed, 16 00:01:38,400 --> 00:01:41,120 Speaker 1: pulling the covers up over my head and just drifting 17 00:01:41,200 --> 00:01:46,360 Speaker 1: off into slumber. But doctor Osborne, he paid price. He 18 00:01:46,440 --> 00:01:48,880 Speaker 1: paid price for being married to Holly Osborne. I have 19 00:01:48,920 --> 00:01:50,840 Speaker 1: to say that because she ended his life as he 20 00:01:50,920 --> 00:01:54,720 Speaker 1: laid there sleeping. This is a case that just kind 21 00:01:54,760 --> 00:01:58,080 Speaker 1: of boggles the mind, because you have a crime and 22 00:01:58,520 --> 00:02:01,720 Speaker 1: a perpetrator who said she really doesn't remember a lot 23 00:02:01,800 --> 00:02:04,360 Speaker 1: of it. In fact, the police became aware of what 24 00:02:04,480 --> 00:02:10,160 Speaker 1: happened after Holly Osborne called her father to tell him 25 00:02:10,240 --> 00:02:14,720 Speaker 1: what had happened, and then the father ended up calling 26 00:02:14,800 --> 00:02:17,680 Speaker 1: nine one one, and during the phone call to nine 27 00:02:17,800 --> 00:02:21,400 Speaker 1: one one, her dad revealed that she was drunk when 28 00:02:21,480 --> 00:02:26,760 Speaker 1: she called him. Police get there and Holly Osborne was 29 00:02:27,080 --> 00:02:29,920 Speaker 1: not in I don't want to say she's not in 30 00:02:29,960 --> 00:02:31,880 Speaker 1: her faculties because that's not the way to say it, 31 00:02:32,360 --> 00:02:38,160 Speaker 1: but she is not sober. Police find two guns next 32 00:02:38,160 --> 00:02:41,800 Speaker 1: to the bed, and there is Joe. There's so many 33 00:02:41,800 --> 00:02:43,880 Speaker 1: ways that we could go at this case, So let's 34 00:02:43,919 --> 00:02:47,120 Speaker 1: start with if you were laying in the bed and 35 00:02:47,280 --> 00:02:51,560 Speaker 1: you were shot, the bed itself is obviously going to 36 00:02:51,680 --> 00:02:56,240 Speaker 1: be your evidence bonanza because the blood that drains from 37 00:02:56,280 --> 00:03:00,640 Speaker 1: the body is going to pull on the bed as 38 00:03:00,639 --> 00:03:06,359 Speaker 1: well as any gunshot residue, any fragments. I mean, plethora, 39 00:03:06,520 --> 00:03:10,280 Speaker 1: plea plethora. Yeah, you're right, Jackie. Some of the most 40 00:03:10,360 --> 00:03:15,560 Speaker 1: interesting cases that I've worked comicides have involved beds and bedding. 41 00:03:16,400 --> 00:03:18,680 Speaker 1: I think one of the cases that really jumps to 42 00:03:18,760 --> 00:03:21,960 Speaker 1: mind for me actually had a case where a swat 43 00:03:21,960 --> 00:03:25,440 Speaker 1: team had come into a home and Letty was lying 44 00:03:25,480 --> 00:03:27,959 Speaker 1: on the bed and she reached for a gun and 45 00:03:28,120 --> 00:03:31,560 Speaker 1: she was lying on the bed or the door bust open. 46 00:03:32,040 --> 00:03:35,400 Speaker 1: The problem was this, she was laid on a water bed. 47 00:03:35,760 --> 00:03:40,160 Speaker 1: They hit her with a fully automatic weapon and there 48 00:03:40,160 --> 00:03:44,440 Speaker 1: were bullets all over the place, and not just all 49 00:03:44,480 --> 00:03:48,680 Speaker 1: over the place, they were floating in a pool of 50 00:03:48,720 --> 00:03:51,920 Speaker 1: water that she was in turn floating in because the 51 00:03:51,920 --> 00:03:54,200 Speaker 1: bed had been perforated. And in this case you actually 52 00:03:54,240 --> 00:03:58,600 Speaker 1: have a perforation of the mattress, which from one perspective, 53 00:03:58,680 --> 00:04:02,960 Speaker 1: is really handy for forensic investigators. And let me kind 54 00:04:02,960 --> 00:04:05,280 Speaker 1: of tie this back to what happens in the crime 55 00:04:05,360 --> 00:04:08,720 Speaker 1: lab when we're test firing weapons. I think that people 56 00:04:08,880 --> 00:04:13,920 Speaker 1: might not know how we capture bullets at the ballistics laboratories, 57 00:04:13,920 --> 00:04:18,840 Speaker 1: but generally one of two ways. We either fire a 58 00:04:18,839 --> 00:04:23,200 Speaker 1: test fire weapon into a tank of water and bullet 59 00:04:23,200 --> 00:04:26,080 Speaker 1: will float down and it's caught in a trade down there. 60 00:04:26,240 --> 00:04:29,320 Speaker 1: And the beauty of firing into water is that it 61 00:04:29,600 --> 00:04:32,640 Speaker 1: allows the bullet to remain in kind of a pristine state. 62 00:04:32,720 --> 00:04:36,200 Speaker 1: It's not passing through some kind of solid object. It's 63 00:04:36,240 --> 00:04:41,839 Speaker 1: going through a fluid now other places. Actually, when you 64 00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:45,320 Speaker 1: fire a bullet to test fire, it goes into cotton, 65 00:04:45,400 --> 00:04:47,919 Speaker 1: and again it's it's not I don't think that it 66 00:04:47,960 --> 00:04:51,360 Speaker 1: would be as preferable as water. But still the bullet 67 00:04:51,800 --> 00:04:56,040 Speaker 1: maintains its integrity, if you will, the physical integrity. And 68 00:04:56,160 --> 00:04:58,920 Speaker 1: in this particular case, one of the rounds actually did 69 00:04:59,000 --> 00:05:03,760 Speaker 1: pass through osborne into the mattress. So when crime scene 70 00:05:03,760 --> 00:05:07,280 Speaker 1: investigators were there, you know, kind of digging around is 71 00:05:07,440 --> 00:05:09,839 Speaker 1: you have to do, because you can see where the 72 00:05:09,880 --> 00:05:12,599 Speaker 1: hole is in the mattress, they would have to track 73 00:05:12,680 --> 00:05:15,359 Speaker 1: that round determine what the trajectory is. You know, you 74 00:05:15,440 --> 00:05:18,400 Speaker 1: place a trajectory rod in the hole first, and you 75 00:05:18,480 --> 00:05:22,680 Speaker 1: take a photograph of that, or use a simulator in 76 00:05:22,720 --> 00:05:25,560 Speaker 1: the room like a Pharaoh device. They can shoot lasers 77 00:05:25,600 --> 00:05:27,560 Speaker 1: in the room and try to recreate kind of a 78 00:05:27,640 --> 00:05:31,160 Speaker 1: three D environment with this thing. And you would do that, 79 00:05:31,400 --> 00:05:33,520 Speaker 1: you know, to visualize it, and then you cut down 80 00:05:33,839 --> 00:05:37,880 Speaker 1: into that mattress and retrieve that spent round and hopefully 81 00:05:37,880 --> 00:05:39,840 Speaker 1: it will be intact. And you know, the end game 82 00:05:39,920 --> 00:05:43,120 Speaker 1: here is to try to match that round up with 83 00:05:43,240 --> 00:05:47,000 Speaker 1: a weapon that it originated from. One of the big 84 00:05:47,080 --> 00:05:50,000 Speaker 1: problems though, is that the body in a case like 85 00:05:50,040 --> 00:05:53,800 Speaker 1: this becomes what's referred to as an intermediate target. That 86 00:05:53,880 --> 00:05:58,200 Speaker 1: means that the body is in between the end of 87 00:05:58,240 --> 00:06:03,120 Speaker 1: the muzzle and the final resting spot of the projectile, 88 00:06:03,600 --> 00:06:06,880 Speaker 1: and so as it's passing through the body, the projectile 89 00:06:07,000 --> 00:06:10,279 Speaker 1: can become deformed, misshapen, that sort of thing, and it 90 00:06:10,320 --> 00:06:13,800 Speaker 1: can also fragment too. It will not look the same 91 00:06:13,839 --> 00:06:15,760 Speaker 1: as it does when you're testified in the lab, so 92 00:06:15,760 --> 00:06:19,760 Speaker 1: it won't be as pristine. But it's better, certainly going 93 00:06:19,800 --> 00:06:22,400 Speaker 1: into a mattress than it is striking a concrete floor, 94 00:06:23,520 --> 00:06:28,000 Speaker 1: because you have so much evidence at that point to process. 95 00:06:28,320 --> 00:06:30,920 Speaker 1: Start from the beginning, Joe, you walk in that room, 96 00:06:31,080 --> 00:06:34,159 Speaker 1: you see a body on a bed, you see guns, 97 00:06:34,880 --> 00:06:38,920 Speaker 1: you see blood. Where do you start? Do you start 98 00:06:39,000 --> 00:06:42,720 Speaker 1: with securing the guns that you find near the scene? 99 00:06:43,600 --> 00:06:47,280 Speaker 1: Do you check to make sure the victim is alive 100 00:06:47,440 --> 00:06:52,440 Speaker 1: and need medical help? Where do you actually start? Great question, 101 00:06:52,600 --> 00:06:55,760 Speaker 1: because the first thing that you do, look, forensics is great. 102 00:06:56,160 --> 00:07:00,679 Speaker 1: It's fantastic, it really is. But in every single case, 103 00:07:01,400 --> 00:07:05,440 Speaker 1: the health and safety of the public trump's everything else. 104 00:07:05,880 --> 00:07:09,520 Speaker 1: Okay here, people, many times cops in particular that the 105 00:07:09,640 --> 00:07:13,400 Speaker 1: work cases where they've had the firefighters, first responders that 106 00:07:13,440 --> 00:07:15,800 Speaker 1: will run onto the scene, or the paramedics that will 107 00:07:15,800 --> 00:07:19,680 Speaker 1: show up, and their quote unquote, according to investigators, they're 108 00:07:19,680 --> 00:07:24,040 Speaker 1: trampling on evidence in this environment. Okay, well, their goal, 109 00:07:24,520 --> 00:07:27,400 Speaker 1: and this is important to remember, their goal at that 110 00:07:27,640 --> 00:07:31,560 Speaker 1: moment in time is not to preserve evidence, is to 111 00:07:31,600 --> 00:07:35,520 Speaker 1: preserve life, right, And so you have to assess the 112 00:07:35,640 --> 00:07:40,200 Speaker 1: status at that time would be their patient. Me, I'm 113 00:07:40,200 --> 00:07:42,600 Speaker 1: a death investigator. I'm going to refer to the individuals 114 00:07:43,080 --> 00:07:47,000 Speaker 1: as a decedent. Okay, that's not the stage that you're at. 115 00:07:47,000 --> 00:07:49,480 Speaker 1: At this point, you have to determine the status of 116 00:07:49,560 --> 00:07:53,680 Speaker 1: the patient. Is it possible that this individual could still 117 00:07:53,960 --> 00:07:56,440 Speaker 1: be respiring, that they could still have a heartbeat, And 118 00:07:56,480 --> 00:07:58,640 Speaker 1: they're going to assess them at that moment in time. 119 00:07:58,840 --> 00:08:01,240 Speaker 1: They'll get out to steaths, they might even hook up 120 00:08:01,240 --> 00:08:04,680 Speaker 1: an EKG, a portable EKG, and see if there's any 121 00:08:04,720 --> 00:08:07,960 Speaker 1: evidence of life at all. But in this case, Jackie, 122 00:08:08,000 --> 00:08:11,240 Speaker 1: and you know, you really mentioned something just a second ago. 123 00:08:11,520 --> 00:08:17,880 Speaker 1: When Holly Osborne had this awareness that her husband was dead, 124 00:08:18,280 --> 00:08:23,240 Speaker 1: her first inclination was not to die none eleven. It 125 00:08:23,320 --> 00:08:27,640 Speaker 1: was to call her daddy. At that point, in time. Now, 126 00:08:29,000 --> 00:08:31,640 Speaker 1: one of the major problems with it is if you 127 00:08:31,760 --> 00:08:35,720 Speaker 1: don't get EMTs saddled up and headed in your way 128 00:08:36,360 --> 00:08:39,960 Speaker 1: in the quickest manner possible, this person's going to die. 129 00:08:41,080 --> 00:08:44,000 Speaker 1: And so I think that if you look at this 130 00:08:44,160 --> 00:08:47,160 Speaker 1: from not just let's just don't consider the evidence, let's 131 00:08:47,160 --> 00:08:52,200 Speaker 1: consider what that implies. Right, that you're aware that your 132 00:08:52,240 --> 00:08:56,560 Speaker 1: husband has sustained gunshot wounds, like I would assume you 133 00:08:56,559 --> 00:09:02,040 Speaker 1: would be aware of that, But yeah, you're not calling 134 00:09:02,320 --> 00:09:04,839 Speaker 1: nine to eleven, And that shows kind of a callousness, 135 00:09:04,880 --> 00:09:07,240 Speaker 1: doesn't it. I mean, just think about that just for 136 00:09:07,240 --> 00:09:09,439 Speaker 1: a second. I don't know about everybody else listening, but 137 00:09:09,480 --> 00:09:13,360 Speaker 1: I gotta tell you, if someone has the idea that 138 00:09:13,440 --> 00:09:15,800 Speaker 1: I've been shot, I don't want them to call their 139 00:09:15,840 --> 00:09:18,080 Speaker 1: next of kent. I want them to get on the 140 00:09:18,080 --> 00:09:21,120 Speaker 1: phone and I want to hear ambulances in the distance. 141 00:09:21,160 --> 00:09:23,160 Speaker 1: I want to hear the sirens and if I can 142 00:09:23,160 --> 00:09:25,440 Speaker 1: still see, I want to see those lights flashing outside 143 00:09:25,480 --> 00:09:28,800 Speaker 1: my window. That's not the case with this. She called 144 00:09:28,800 --> 00:09:32,440 Speaker 1: her dad. Her dad called police. So when he made 145 00:09:32,480 --> 00:09:36,880 Speaker 1: that call and the dispatcher sent out the alert to 146 00:09:37,040 --> 00:09:41,240 Speaker 1: all the appropriate people personnel who would have gotten there first. 147 00:09:41,280 --> 00:09:44,920 Speaker 1: Who would have been the personnel that nine one one 148 00:09:44,960 --> 00:09:47,600 Speaker 1: would have informed first, Well, there's gonna be a couple 149 00:09:47,600 --> 00:09:49,840 Speaker 1: of folks. The way this kind of breaks down is 150 00:09:49,840 --> 00:09:53,920 Speaker 1: that you you know, I think people think, well, paramedics 151 00:09:53,920 --> 00:09:55,880 Speaker 1: are going to get there first. Not most of the time. 152 00:09:55,920 --> 00:09:58,120 Speaker 1: You know, who generally shows up and sometimes they will 153 00:09:58,200 --> 00:10:00,360 Speaker 1: arrive at the same time. I'm always fascinated by this 154 00:10:00,400 --> 00:10:02,319 Speaker 1: because when I was a little boy and don't want 155 00:10:02,320 --> 00:10:04,400 Speaker 1: to be police officer, I'm gonna be a firefighter. I 156 00:10:04,520 --> 00:10:09,360 Speaker 1: love those trucks. Fire stations generally have paramedics that work 157 00:10:09,400 --> 00:10:12,080 Speaker 1: there as well. Now they're firefighters, and they will be 158 00:10:12,480 --> 00:10:16,439 Speaker 1: on a truck that's smaller than a regular fire truck, okay, 159 00:10:16,880 --> 00:10:20,000 Speaker 1: and they will they're standing by right, they hop in 160 00:10:20,040 --> 00:10:22,360 Speaker 1: the truck and off they go. Man, I mean they're 161 00:10:22,400 --> 00:10:26,440 Speaker 1: just blasting. Well. The police might be handling another call, 162 00:10:26,600 --> 00:10:29,440 Speaker 1: for instance, and they're going to get there as quickly 163 00:10:29,480 --> 00:10:32,600 Speaker 1: as they can. But the guys in the first responders 164 00:10:32,679 --> 00:10:34,959 Speaker 1: in those fire trucks, and like I said, it's generally 165 00:10:35,120 --> 00:10:39,320 Speaker 1: smaller one, they'll roll up at the scene themselves and 166 00:10:39,480 --> 00:10:41,560 Speaker 1: many times they have to let themselves in. And you know, 167 00:10:41,640 --> 00:10:44,679 Speaker 1: people often talk about how dangerous it is for police 168 00:10:44,720 --> 00:10:49,160 Speaker 1: officers to go to domestic calls. Think about an unarmed 169 00:10:49,160 --> 00:10:54,640 Speaker 1: firefighter first responder showing up and they not most of 170 00:10:54,640 --> 00:10:56,839 Speaker 1: the time. There are certain jurisdictions, but not most of 171 00:10:56,880 --> 00:11:01,280 Speaker 1: the time. Firefighters EMTs are not armed, okay, they're not 172 00:11:01,320 --> 00:11:05,160 Speaker 1: wearing a side arm. So they're going into an environment 173 00:11:05,559 --> 00:11:08,640 Speaker 1: where there has been gunfire. There's been gun play, okay, 174 00:11:08,880 --> 00:11:11,959 Speaker 1: and their goal is to try to determine what has 175 00:11:12,000 --> 00:11:14,600 Speaker 1: happened in this environment and try to save somebody. Just 176 00:11:14,679 --> 00:11:17,600 Speaker 1: imagine how horrific this is. If you're going into this 177 00:11:17,760 --> 00:11:21,559 Speaker 1: environment and you're walking in the door, you've got your 178 00:11:21,679 --> 00:11:25,120 Speaker 1: medical kit with you, maybe you're dragging a stretcher behind you, 179 00:11:26,720 --> 00:11:29,679 Speaker 1: and you're walking in and it's a person that's bleeding 180 00:11:29,679 --> 00:11:34,000 Speaker 1: out and guess who's standing there, the perpetrator. And guess 181 00:11:34,000 --> 00:11:37,000 Speaker 1: what else you mentioned it just a second ago. You've 182 00:11:37,000 --> 00:11:40,480 Speaker 1: got two weapons in there. You've got two weapons that 183 00:11:40,520 --> 00:11:44,320 Speaker 1: are in there, and you've got a person obviously that 184 00:11:44,480 --> 00:11:47,079 Speaker 1: has had a part in the death of this individual. 185 00:11:47,240 --> 00:11:50,520 Speaker 1: Was to say for these defenseless firefighters at this moment 186 00:11:50,559 --> 00:11:53,360 Speaker 1: time that they're not at risk too. That's why they're 187 00:11:53,360 --> 00:11:55,720 Speaker 1: so brave. I mean, they really are. When you begin 188 00:11:55,760 --> 00:11:58,360 Speaker 1: to think about what their job is to make an 189 00:11:58,400 --> 00:12:00,880 Speaker 1: assessment on a patient and try to determine if in 190 00:12:00,920 --> 00:12:04,400 Speaker 1: fact there's any hope whatsoever that they're going to survive, 191 00:12:05,120 --> 00:12:08,679 Speaker 1: and then it's absolutely terrifying. I've had any number of 192 00:12:09,160 --> 00:12:11,600 Speaker 1: friends that are first responders that have told me just 193 00:12:11,679 --> 00:12:14,160 Speaker 1: horror stories where they're having to wrestle with people, they're 194 00:12:14,200 --> 00:12:16,480 Speaker 1: being threatened. I've had friends that have been shot at. 195 00:12:16,520 --> 00:12:17,959 Speaker 1: I had a friend of mine that was stabbed. It 196 00:12:18,040 --> 00:12:21,280 Speaker 1: was a first responder, and it's a tough, tough job. 197 00:12:21,880 --> 00:12:24,800 Speaker 1: So as the first responders get there, no matter who 198 00:12:24,880 --> 00:12:28,560 Speaker 1: it is, whether it's a firefighters, whether it's premedics, or 199 00:12:28,600 --> 00:12:31,640 Speaker 1: whether it is the police, because they have to go 200 00:12:31,679 --> 00:12:34,720 Speaker 1: in and assess the scene. So basically what you're telling 201 00:12:34,760 --> 00:12:37,080 Speaker 1: me is is it really no matter who gets there first, 202 00:12:37,760 --> 00:12:41,520 Speaker 1: your crime scene is going to be damaged in some way. 203 00:12:41,920 --> 00:12:44,319 Speaker 1: So how do you figure it out? Here's kind of 204 00:12:44,360 --> 00:12:48,480 Speaker 1: an interesting part to all of this with firefighters, and 205 00:12:48,600 --> 00:12:51,760 Speaker 1: I note that if there are any in our audience today, 206 00:12:51,640 --> 00:12:55,960 Speaker 1: they'll they'll understand this. Firefighters many times have to have 207 00:12:56,600 --> 00:12:59,240 Speaker 1: get this. They have to be fingerprinted and I don't 208 00:12:59,240 --> 00:13:02,920 Speaker 1: mean like in order to get their job. They will 209 00:13:02,960 --> 00:13:06,800 Speaker 1: literally be printed in order to eliminate their fingerprints that 210 00:13:06,880 --> 00:13:09,000 Speaker 1: a scene. Let's say, for instance, they're not wearing gloves 211 00:13:09,000 --> 00:13:11,120 Speaker 1: when they roll in and they touch something. And also, 212 00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:14,600 Speaker 1: here's something else that's interesting. What do you have if 213 00:13:14,679 --> 00:13:18,640 Speaker 1: you have an individual that has sustained multiple gunshot ones 214 00:13:18,679 --> 00:13:21,040 Speaker 1: where you just don't have defects in the body, You've 215 00:13:21,040 --> 00:13:23,080 Speaker 1: probably got to copy this amount of blood. And guess 216 00:13:23,080 --> 00:13:25,200 Speaker 1: what happens with the firefighters when they're trying to make 217 00:13:25,240 --> 00:13:27,400 Speaker 1: their way to the body. Well, they're gonna step in it. 218 00:13:27,720 --> 00:13:29,280 Speaker 1: They're gonna step in it, and they don't have an 219 00:13:29,280 --> 00:13:31,240 Speaker 1: awareness of this. They're trying to get to the person 220 00:13:31,280 --> 00:13:34,360 Speaker 1: to render age. So when the firefighter actually steps in 221 00:13:34,400 --> 00:13:39,480 Speaker 1: the blood, they will transfer that bloody bootprint because most 222 00:13:39,480 --> 00:13:42,480 Speaker 1: of them wear boots like this, these kind of still 223 00:13:42,520 --> 00:13:44,720 Speaker 1: toad boots that protect their feet and all this stuff, 224 00:13:44,720 --> 00:13:47,320 Speaker 1: because they go into these really harsh and hostile environments 225 00:13:47,600 --> 00:13:50,800 Speaker 1: and they're going to transfer that print of that shoeprint 226 00:13:51,480 --> 00:13:55,559 Speaker 1: to the floor. I've been on scenes many times where 227 00:13:55,760 --> 00:13:59,080 Speaker 1: we'll ask the firefighters first responders to take their boots 228 00:13:59,080 --> 00:14:01,240 Speaker 1: off and we'll set them up and we'll take photos 229 00:14:01,320 --> 00:14:03,960 Speaker 1: of them. We'll demonstrate they've got blood on the souls 230 00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:06,000 Speaker 1: of them, and you can pick up on the tread 231 00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:08,000 Speaker 1: patterns and all of that stuff, so that if it 232 00:14:08,040 --> 00:14:11,240 Speaker 1: comes up later on down the road, you can compare 233 00:14:11,720 --> 00:14:15,360 Speaker 1: those prints that you see at the scene to prints 234 00:14:15,480 --> 00:14:18,280 Speaker 1: that are left behind by the bloody boots that they 235 00:14:18,280 --> 00:14:21,040 Speaker 1: were wearing at the time. And it's a matter of elimination. 236 00:14:21,120 --> 00:14:26,160 Speaker 1: So from Jump Street, your scene is contaminated. It's contaminated 237 00:14:26,200 --> 00:14:30,760 Speaker 1: before it actually becomes an official crime scene, and all 238 00:14:30,760 --> 00:14:34,840 Speaker 1: of that has to be taken into consideration. Here's another 239 00:14:34,960 --> 00:14:40,120 Speaker 1: fascinating part about first responders. Unlike even the patrol officer 240 00:14:40,400 --> 00:14:42,480 Speaker 1: that's out there that shows up at the scene and 241 00:14:42,600 --> 00:14:44,960 Speaker 1: kind of has security and they're in control of everything, 242 00:14:45,600 --> 00:14:48,360 Speaker 1: guests who are the first eyes on the scene, well, 243 00:14:48,440 --> 00:14:51,800 Speaker 1: it's going to be the first responder and they'll hear 244 00:14:51,880 --> 00:14:55,160 Speaker 1: and see things that other people will not hear and see. 245 00:14:55,880 --> 00:14:57,840 Speaker 1: Can you imagine what it's like to be a first 246 00:14:57,880 --> 00:15:01,520 Speaker 1: responder and you show up and you've got a spouse 247 00:15:01,560 --> 00:15:03,880 Speaker 1: that is just talking out of their head, and you 248 00:15:03,920 --> 00:15:06,440 Speaker 1: know they're saying things like I didn't mean to shoot them, 249 00:15:06,560 --> 00:15:10,520 Speaker 1: or the gun accidentally went off, or I'd had enough 250 00:15:10,600 --> 00:15:13,160 Speaker 1: of him, or whatever the case might be. Well, they 251 00:15:13,240 --> 00:15:16,760 Speaker 1: hear that, they hear that, and guess what, they're not 252 00:15:16,840 --> 00:15:19,600 Speaker 1: police officers, So they're going to include that in their report, 253 00:15:19,640 --> 00:15:22,440 Speaker 1: and that report can be subpoenaed and they'll be called 254 00:15:22,480 --> 00:15:25,320 Speaker 1: to the stand. The firefighter or the mt they can 255 00:15:25,360 --> 00:15:28,800 Speaker 1: actually hear this loved one or the perpetrator, as the 256 00:15:28,800 --> 00:15:31,520 Speaker 1: case might be, actually hear them make the statement, and 257 00:15:31,560 --> 00:15:33,600 Speaker 1: that's going to be committed into evidence. So they play 258 00:15:33,680 --> 00:15:37,280 Speaker 1: like this really key role in what they see and 259 00:15:37,360 --> 00:15:40,080 Speaker 1: what they hear when they first roll up at a scene. Okay, 260 00:15:40,120 --> 00:15:42,960 Speaker 1: so you talked about bloody footprints, but one of the 261 00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:46,600 Speaker 1: other things that you're gonna see, especially on a bloody 262 00:15:46,640 --> 00:15:50,960 Speaker 1: crime scene, if they're trying to revive the victim, it's 263 00:15:51,080 --> 00:15:55,240 Speaker 1: going to disturb your blood patterns. Instead of droplets and 264 00:15:55,320 --> 00:15:58,600 Speaker 1: spatters and smears, you're gonna have drag marks. You're going 265 00:15:58,640 --> 00:16:01,640 Speaker 1: to have I don't know, I don't know all the 266 00:16:01,720 --> 00:16:04,240 Speaker 1: terminology for them, but you're going to have marks that 267 00:16:04,360 --> 00:16:10,000 Speaker 1: were not there caused by the actual incident. So how 268 00:16:10,080 --> 00:16:14,360 Speaker 1: do you, as a crime scene investigator tell the difference 269 00:16:14,400 --> 00:16:18,120 Speaker 1: in something that was caused by your crime and then 270 00:16:18,320 --> 00:16:22,200 Speaker 1: caused by your first responders when they pulled the body 271 00:16:22,240 --> 00:16:25,480 Speaker 1: off the bed. Just picture this. Let's say, for instance, 272 00:16:25,480 --> 00:16:27,480 Speaker 1: you've got an individual that has been shot in the 273 00:16:27,600 --> 00:16:32,800 Speaker 1: chest okay and around, has punctured their long. Well, what 274 00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:36,400 Speaker 1: do what do they do? What do first responders do? 275 00:16:36,560 --> 00:16:38,920 Speaker 1: If they're trying to re establish a heartbeat, they're trying 276 00:16:38,920 --> 00:16:41,720 Speaker 1: to get them to respire. Well, they're doing chess compressions, 277 00:16:41,720 --> 00:16:45,280 Speaker 1: aren't they. Well, they they covered the wound. Let's say, 278 00:16:45,280 --> 00:16:47,600 Speaker 1: for instance, the old term as a sucking chess wound. 279 00:16:47,680 --> 00:16:49,960 Speaker 1: If you have a wound that penetrates the chess cavity 280 00:16:49,960 --> 00:16:52,640 Speaker 1: and it goes into the long they'll be taking air 281 00:16:52,880 --> 00:16:57,040 Speaker 1: into that space, the thoracic region there, and they develop 282 00:16:57,080 --> 00:17:00,680 Speaker 1: what's called it pneumothorax, which means that the is beginning 283 00:17:00,720 --> 00:17:02,600 Speaker 1: to collapse. So they'll try to seal that off with 284 00:17:03,360 --> 00:17:05,480 Speaker 1: plastic and covered up. But then they have to start 285 00:17:05,480 --> 00:17:08,840 Speaker 1: doing chess compressions. And guess what all I have to 286 00:17:08,880 --> 00:17:11,880 Speaker 1: do is think back to that image from the crime 287 00:17:11,920 --> 00:17:15,720 Speaker 1: scene with Travis Alexander where we had bloody aspirt all 288 00:17:15,760 --> 00:17:18,919 Speaker 1: over the sync where he spit it out after Jodieires 289 00:17:18,920 --> 00:17:21,840 Speaker 1: had stabbed him. So many times, the same thing kind 290 00:17:21,840 --> 00:17:24,520 Speaker 1: of happens when you're doing chess compressions. The individual will 291 00:17:24,520 --> 00:17:27,560 Speaker 1: be spitting up blood. Well, that's bloody aspirt that's coming out, 292 00:17:27,880 --> 00:17:30,640 Speaker 1: and sometimes that can appear to be like medium velocity 293 00:17:30,640 --> 00:17:33,520 Speaker 1: blood staining and so it lands all over the place. Well, 294 00:17:33,520 --> 00:17:37,679 Speaker 1: how do you separate that from something that was generated 295 00:17:37,760 --> 00:17:40,440 Speaker 1: as a result of an attack. Well, the best way 296 00:17:40,480 --> 00:17:43,560 Speaker 1: to do it is to speak to the responders what 297 00:17:43,640 --> 00:17:45,960 Speaker 1: was going on, Why you were doing the chess compressions? 298 00:17:46,320 --> 00:17:48,679 Speaker 1: Was he spitting up blood? Because that kind of blood, 299 00:17:49,640 --> 00:17:53,199 Speaker 1: it has a different kind of appearances. It's heavily oxygenated. 300 00:17:53,240 --> 00:17:55,159 Speaker 1: It will have kind of a frothy appearance to it 301 00:17:55,240 --> 00:17:58,359 Speaker 1: many times, and you have to try to understand is 302 00:17:58,440 --> 00:18:00,880 Speaker 1: that the source of that blood? Is it? Because they 303 00:18:00,880 --> 00:18:03,679 Speaker 1: were doing the chest compressions and then you talked about 304 00:18:03,760 --> 00:18:06,160 Speaker 1: the movement of the body to try to examine the body, 305 00:18:06,160 --> 00:18:09,120 Speaker 1: because you know that's that's part of assessment. You're trying 306 00:18:09,160 --> 00:18:12,400 Speaker 1: to triage somebody a scene or do the initial examination. 307 00:18:13,240 --> 00:18:15,440 Speaker 1: The EMTs are not thinking, oh my gosh, I gotta 308 00:18:15,520 --> 00:18:19,440 Speaker 1: leave this body in its pristine state, so that the detectives, 309 00:18:19,480 --> 00:18:23,280 Speaker 1: if this person dies, can appreciate them in this original position. No, 310 00:18:23,359 --> 00:18:25,640 Speaker 1: they're not doing that. They're rolling this person over, they're 311 00:18:25,720 --> 00:18:28,320 Speaker 1: checking them for injuries, they're checking them for signs of life. 312 00:18:28,320 --> 00:18:31,280 Speaker 1: They're going to manipulate the body. Just think of it. 313 00:18:31,320 --> 00:18:34,119 Speaker 1: When you go to the doctor. The doctor doesn't have 314 00:18:34,160 --> 00:18:36,360 Speaker 1: you stay in one static position. They're going to move 315 00:18:36,400 --> 00:18:38,560 Speaker 1: around you to listen to your your heart sounds and 316 00:18:38,600 --> 00:18:41,879 Speaker 1: you're you're breathing the on your backside, on between your 317 00:18:41,880 --> 00:18:44,480 Speaker 1: shoulder blades, and they're going to put the stethoscope over 318 00:18:44,520 --> 00:18:46,920 Speaker 1: your chest. They'll have you laid down, do all kinds 319 00:18:46,920 --> 00:18:50,640 Speaker 1: of things. They're going to manipulate you in that circumstance. 320 00:18:51,680 --> 00:18:55,120 Speaker 1: The individual they're responding to is not unlike that. They 321 00:18:55,200 --> 00:18:57,800 Speaker 1: are a patient, they're not a deceit. At that moment, 322 00:19:16,400 --> 00:19:18,440 Speaker 1: I cannot tell you how happy I I got to 323 00:19:18,480 --> 00:19:20,639 Speaker 1: talk about EMTs. There's some of my favorite people in 324 00:19:20,640 --> 00:19:25,200 Speaker 1: the world because they are so self sacrificing in their profession. 325 00:19:25,440 --> 00:19:28,440 Speaker 1: They know they were corbel hours there. They're there for us, 326 00:19:28,880 --> 00:19:30,840 Speaker 1: night and day, and they certainly showed up on this 327 00:19:30,920 --> 00:19:33,560 Speaker 1: scene for doctor Osborne. But of course it was to 328 00:19:34,040 --> 00:19:37,920 Speaker 1: no avail because, as was determined, he was in fact 329 00:19:38,160 --> 00:19:43,000 Speaker 1: dead at the scene. Doctor Osborne was shot, and we 330 00:19:43,240 --> 00:19:46,199 Speaker 1: know that he was shot by his wife by the 331 00:19:46,320 --> 00:19:49,880 Speaker 1: nature of her call to her father and his call 332 00:19:49,960 --> 00:19:55,600 Speaker 1: to the police. So when police get there, we know 333 00:19:55,800 --> 00:19:59,440 Speaker 1: that they saw two guns and the defendant had been shot. 334 00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:04,120 Speaker 1: If he had been shot more than once, do you 335 00:20:04,240 --> 00:20:07,040 Speaker 1: get now here comes my stupid question of the day. 336 00:20:07,040 --> 00:20:09,600 Speaker 1: But there's a reason I'm asking it like this, so 337 00:20:09,680 --> 00:20:13,680 Speaker 1: don't laugh at me. Are you going to see more 338 00:20:13,680 --> 00:20:16,520 Speaker 1: blood the more times that you're shot or does it 339 00:20:16,600 --> 00:20:20,359 Speaker 1: depend on where you were shot? We know Christopher Osborne 340 00:20:20,359 --> 00:20:25,840 Speaker 1: was shot three times in the head, so how much 341 00:20:25,920 --> 00:20:29,359 Speaker 1: blood there ends up being outside the body? Does it 342 00:20:29,480 --> 00:20:32,680 Speaker 1: depend on where you were shot or how many times 343 00:20:32,680 --> 00:20:35,479 Speaker 1: you were shot? Mama said when we were growing up, 344 00:20:35,520 --> 00:20:37,879 Speaker 1: we don't use word stupid, all right, there are no 345 00:20:37,960 --> 00:20:41,600 Speaker 1: stupid questions, So you can't any longer and there are 346 00:20:41,640 --> 00:20:44,800 Speaker 1: no stupid questions. And actually it's a valid question because 347 00:20:44,840 --> 00:20:49,000 Speaker 1: you know what the forensic mythologists identified as gunshot wound 348 00:20:49,080 --> 00:20:51,000 Speaker 1: A And I got to be very clear about this. 349 00:20:51,480 --> 00:20:55,320 Speaker 1: The letter that's assigned to this does not have any 350 00:20:55,359 --> 00:20:58,000 Speaker 1: bearing on the sequence in which they were fired. Okay, 351 00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:03,440 Speaker 1: But what the friends of ologist is calling the letter 352 00:21:03,680 --> 00:21:07,159 Speaker 1: or the number that is assigned in an autopsy report 353 00:21:07,280 --> 00:21:10,320 Speaker 1: to a gunshot wound or even a stab wound does 354 00:21:10,440 --> 00:21:14,520 Speaker 1: not imply the sequence. There's no way to know the sequence, 355 00:21:14,880 --> 00:21:17,719 Speaker 1: but the one that the forensic pathologist is referring to 356 00:21:17,880 --> 00:21:23,120 Speaker 1: as gunshot wound. A Get this, and this was actually 357 00:21:23,160 --> 00:21:29,359 Speaker 1: stated on the stand. This round went through his right jaw, 358 00:21:30,480 --> 00:21:33,960 Speaker 1: his mandible, which is your jawbone on the right aspect, 359 00:21:34,640 --> 00:21:39,280 Speaker 1: passed in the posterior neck, which means on the back 360 00:21:39,320 --> 00:21:42,840 Speaker 1: side of the neck, traversed the body and was lodged 361 00:21:43,320 --> 00:21:46,000 Speaker 1: in the cheek on the left side. So it entered 362 00:21:46,040 --> 00:21:49,720 Speaker 1: on the right, passed in front of the spine, okay, 363 00:21:49,760 --> 00:21:53,399 Speaker 1: and clipped what they call the upper cervical spinal area, 364 00:21:53,480 --> 00:21:57,280 Speaker 1: which is like C one through C four, and then 365 00:21:57,320 --> 00:22:00,680 Speaker 1: wound up in the soft tissue of the of the jaw. 366 00:22:01,280 --> 00:22:06,640 Speaker 1: And get this, it didn't clip a single vessel. It 367 00:22:06,720 --> 00:22:09,520 Speaker 1: was absent any kind of blood. You didn't have blood 368 00:22:09,520 --> 00:22:11,639 Speaker 1: that was generated from that. And there, you know, to 369 00:22:11,680 --> 00:22:14,520 Speaker 1: say that it didn't clip any vessel is kind of misleading. 370 00:22:14,600 --> 00:22:17,560 Speaker 1: But what she said on the stand is that she 371 00:22:17,680 --> 00:22:21,560 Speaker 1: said specifically, it didn't hit the juggler vein, okay, which 372 00:22:21,560 --> 00:22:23,399 Speaker 1: we all have heard the juggler vein. You know, of 373 00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:26,399 Speaker 1: course you've got the crowded that passes through that area. 374 00:22:26,520 --> 00:22:30,560 Speaker 1: That none of the structures were struck with bullet A. 375 00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:34,159 Speaker 1: So the volume of blood has a lot to do 376 00:22:34,240 --> 00:22:38,240 Speaker 1: with where you're struck anatomically, because there are certain areas 377 00:22:38,280 --> 00:22:40,600 Speaker 1: you can be hit in your body where you're going 378 00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:45,119 Speaker 1: to bleed less than you would compare to another anatomical location. 379 00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:48,320 Speaker 1: What's fascinating about this particular case is the fact that 380 00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:53,000 Speaker 1: it's kind of an amazing little factoid there that this 381 00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:55,359 Speaker 1: gunshot wound A that they refer to this A, B 382 00:22:55,520 --> 00:22:59,000 Speaker 1: and C. That gunshot wound A. The forensic pathologist says, 383 00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:01,320 Speaker 1: it didn't clip any vessel. You factor that in with 384 00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:04,320 Speaker 1: the idea that the head, you know, the neck through 385 00:23:04,320 --> 00:23:06,879 Speaker 1: the head is the most vascular area, and what that 386 00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:10,480 Speaker 1: means is there's more blood vessels that are traveling through 387 00:23:10,520 --> 00:23:16,639 Speaker 1: that area. Because your brain requires so much oxygenated blood 388 00:23:16,720 --> 00:23:19,360 Speaker 1: more so than any other area in the body, you're 389 00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:21,439 Speaker 1: going to have all of these branches of vessels that 390 00:23:21,480 --> 00:23:25,600 Speaker 1: are running every which way. Through there. Let's say, for instance, 391 00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:29,040 Speaker 1: you're struck in the temple with a gunshot wound and 392 00:23:29,080 --> 00:23:32,359 Speaker 1: it passes, say from right to left and winds up, 393 00:23:32,560 --> 00:23:36,639 Speaker 1: you know, exiting out of your skull. That's going to 394 00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:39,720 Speaker 1: be a very, very bloody wound. I just I would 395 00:23:39,760 --> 00:23:42,240 Speaker 1: ask anybody within the sound of my voice that's ever 396 00:23:42,280 --> 00:23:45,000 Speaker 1: sustained an open head injury. And when I say that, 397 00:23:45,359 --> 00:23:47,920 Speaker 1: it's not as it doesn't have to be severe. Like 398 00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:51,320 Speaker 1: you know, your skull is fraction, you have brains visible. 399 00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:53,680 Speaker 1: I'm just talking about where you split your head open. 400 00:23:53,760 --> 00:23:57,240 Speaker 1: Have you ever noticed how much you bleed anytime your 401 00:23:57,280 --> 00:24:00,840 Speaker 1: scalp is insulted at all, as apposed to say a 402 00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:03,720 Speaker 1: paper cut on your finger, or maybe even if you've 403 00:24:03,760 --> 00:24:06,000 Speaker 1: cut your wrist in some way, or the back of 404 00:24:06,040 --> 00:24:09,359 Speaker 1: your arm or skinned up a knee. It just seems 405 00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:12,399 Speaker 1: as though that you bleach so much coming from your scalp, 406 00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:14,800 Speaker 1: and of course below that area when you get into 407 00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:17,560 Speaker 1: the skull. So it is what we refer to as 408 00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:21,280 Speaker 1: being anatomically depended upon where each one of those rounds 409 00:24:21,280 --> 00:24:24,200 Speaker 1: it's targeted, particularly when it comes to the head. Okay, Joe, 410 00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:26,000 Speaker 1: but I got to go back to my original question, 411 00:24:26,920 --> 00:24:29,240 Speaker 1: because I really want to understand this, and the point 412 00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:33,080 Speaker 1: I'm getting at by asking it is knowing how blood 413 00:24:33,119 --> 00:24:38,000 Speaker 1: if the first shot did not kill Christopher Osborne, knowing 414 00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:42,840 Speaker 1: how the body still pumps blood, would there have been 415 00:24:43,720 --> 00:24:48,000 Speaker 1: with the second wound just more blood initially or would 416 00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:51,840 Speaker 1: there been more pressure coming from that first wound that 417 00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:54,440 Speaker 1: made a hole in the body to the exterior. Would 418 00:24:54,480 --> 00:24:57,560 Speaker 1: that have seemed seen more blood? You understand what I'm 419 00:24:57,560 --> 00:25:00,439 Speaker 1: trying to get at. Oh? Yeah, yeah, I do, particularly 420 00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:02,439 Speaker 1: if you're talking about, let's say, for instance, like a 421 00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:05,200 Speaker 1: through and through wound. And when I say through and through, 422 00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:07,399 Speaker 1: I mean that you have an entrance in an exit, 423 00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:11,800 Speaker 1: an obvious exit. We talked about wound a okay that 424 00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:15,080 Speaker 1: they identified in the autopsy. The bullet did not completely 425 00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:19,359 Speaker 1: exit out of that wound. It was sitting right beneath 426 00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:23,760 Speaker 1: the surface of the skin and Jason to the left jaw. Okay. 427 00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:26,640 Speaker 1: But if you have a through and through wound, it's 428 00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:31,240 Speaker 1: just logical you're perforating the body through and through. So 429 00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:33,840 Speaker 1: the more defects you having the body, the more you're 430 00:25:33,840 --> 00:25:38,000 Speaker 1: going to bleed. And you know, I have folks ask 431 00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:42,199 Speaker 1: me and have asked me throughout my career. Here's the 432 00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:45,639 Speaker 1: one question that's posed me, particularly when I notify families. 433 00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:50,000 Speaker 1: They always say, did they suffer? That's a relative question, Okay. 434 00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:53,000 Speaker 1: I think people are asking do they have an awareness 435 00:25:53,119 --> 00:25:56,560 Speaker 1: that they're dying or you know that they're in throes 436 00:25:56,600 --> 00:25:59,479 Speaker 1: of death or whatever the case might be. If you 437 00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:02,840 Speaker 1: were shot in the head, let's say you take around 438 00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:10,760 Speaker 1: to the brain. Yeah, from a neurological standpoint, you're automatically diminished. Okay, 439 00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:13,199 Speaker 1: But just because you're shot in certain areas of the 440 00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:16,640 Speaker 1: brain doesn't mean you die instantaneously. Now, if you're talking 441 00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:20,000 Speaker 1: about the brainstem is clipped where all of the autonomic 442 00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:22,199 Speaker 1: stuff is going on, you know, our heart's beating and 443 00:26:22,280 --> 00:26:25,840 Speaker 1: all that, You're not gonna be dead instantly. Okay. So 444 00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:29,640 Speaker 1: it's again we're back to this idea of being anatomically dependent. 445 00:26:30,040 --> 00:26:33,439 Speaker 1: And let's say, for instance, an individual is shot in 446 00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:35,840 Speaker 1: the head. It's through and through, it goes from say 447 00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:39,119 Speaker 1: the right temporal area, through the left temporal area and 448 00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:42,760 Speaker 1: exits the body. But heart's still going to be beating, Okay, 449 00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:45,560 Speaker 1: still gonna be beating. And if it's still beating, that 450 00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:49,120 Speaker 1: means that blood is coursing through the system. Now you've 451 00:26:49,119 --> 00:26:54,520 Speaker 1: compromised the structural integrity of all of the vascular system, okay, 452 00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:57,280 Speaker 1: the little vascular pathways in the brain, and now you've 453 00:26:57,320 --> 00:26:59,720 Speaker 1: got these openings that have been blown out. So yeah, 454 00:26:59,840 --> 00:27:03,000 Speaker 1: there'll be a tremendous amount of blood that comes out. 455 00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:06,000 Speaker 1: You see people that sustain and there are many of 456 00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:09,360 Speaker 1: them that sustain intra oral gunshot wounds, which are most 457 00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:11,320 Speaker 1: of the time self inflicted. You see in the movies 458 00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:14,480 Speaker 1: people stick guns in people's mouths and threatening postures and 459 00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:17,160 Speaker 1: all that sort of thing. I don't know of any 460 00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:19,879 Speaker 1: case I ever worked where that was a homicidal event, 461 00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:22,640 Speaker 1: but you do have that with suicide, and those are 462 00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:25,520 Speaker 1: some of the blood is cases that you can possibly work. 463 00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:29,679 Speaker 1: When it comes to gunshot wound related suicides, there'll be 464 00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:32,720 Speaker 1: a tremendous amount of blood. And you think, well, you know, 465 00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:36,159 Speaker 1: if they if they die instantaneously, why is there so 466 00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:39,560 Speaker 1: much blood at the scene. Well, their heart doesn't just 467 00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:43,439 Speaker 1: automatically cease beating at that moment in time. Now do 468 00:27:43,480 --> 00:27:46,560 Speaker 1: they have an awareness that this is going on? I 469 00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:50,359 Speaker 1: think most neurologists would probably say no, they don't. They've 470 00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:53,320 Speaker 1: lost consciousness at this point. They don't have an awareness 471 00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:56,040 Speaker 1: of it. But yet the heart continues to beat because 472 00:27:56,080 --> 00:27:59,080 Speaker 1: it's it's part of the it's controlled by the autonomic 473 00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:01,920 Speaker 1: nervous system. So you're still going to be pumping out 474 00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:06,760 Speaker 1: blood until eventually. Here's another fancy ten dollar word. If 475 00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:09,640 Speaker 1: Nancy was here, she'd say, just got start to start 476 00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:12,520 Speaker 1: speaking English at this point. There's a terminus use that 477 00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:17,639 Speaker 1: we refer to as exsanguination. Exanguination, It's very simple. It 478 00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:20,360 Speaker 1: just means that you bleed out, You lose a tremendous 479 00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:23,800 Speaker 1: amount of blood that exsanguinated, and that just means major 480 00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:26,760 Speaker 1: blood loss at that point in time. But you know, 481 00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:29,679 Speaker 1: to kind of tied up in a neat bow most 482 00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:33,320 Speaker 1: of the time when you have head trauma, particularly related 483 00:28:33,359 --> 00:28:37,200 Speaker 1: to gunfire instances, it's going to be a bloody mess. 484 00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:42,120 Speaker 1: And it makes it makes interpreting the scene from a 485 00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:47,280 Speaker 1: blood stained characteristic standpoint the devil. You pay the devil 486 00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:49,680 Speaker 1: to do it, because not only do you have that 487 00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:53,760 Speaker 1: dynamic event, say for instance, where an individual is shot 488 00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:56,760 Speaker 1: and that round passes through the skull and you have 489 00:28:57,160 --> 00:29:00,360 Speaker 1: high velocity blood staining that goes over every thing, you know, 490 00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:03,520 Speaker 1: where you get that real fine particulate blood droplets that 491 00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:06,400 Speaker 1: are all over the place, but yet they lay in 492 00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:10,240 Speaker 1: that same spot, and they've got this secondary blood flow 493 00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:13,400 Speaker 1: that kind of covers and obscures that initial blast that 494 00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:17,400 Speaker 1: takes place. It can be very, very tough to kind 495 00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:20,440 Speaker 1: of figure things out at that point. Does the state 496 00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:24,400 Speaker 1: of Christopher Osborne's body at that point a state of 497 00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:31,560 Speaker 1: complete relaxation sleep? Does that play anything at all into 498 00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:35,880 Speaker 1: what happened in that the reaction of the body when 499 00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:38,920 Speaker 1: he shot. I think that it speaks a lot to 500 00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:45,480 Speaker 1: the perpetrator. It's not like the perpetrator went face to 501 00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:49,440 Speaker 1: face with doctor Osborne where they're in some kind of 502 00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:54,719 Speaker 1: dynamic fight. This guy was asleep when the first officer 503 00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:59,400 Speaker 1: rolled up. Doctor Osborne was laying face. Now, now I'm 504 00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:01,680 Speaker 1: not a stumach slep for myself, it's just something I 505 00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:04,680 Speaker 1: don't find comfort in. But let's just say, let's just 506 00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:08,280 Speaker 1: say for argument's sake, that that's the position he slept in. 507 00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:11,120 Speaker 1: If you sustain a gunshot wound the head, more than 508 00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:14,320 Speaker 1: likely you're going to die right where you're shot. Okay, 509 00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:18,240 Speaker 1: You're going to bleed out in that position. And it 510 00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:21,040 Speaker 1: says a lot for the and I use this term 511 00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:25,640 Speaker 1: a lot for the asymmetry in this kind of environment 512 00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:29,600 Speaker 1: and this kind of violent relationship. What I mean that 513 00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:33,200 Speaker 1: moment of violence where you have an individual that's dominant, 514 00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:37,960 Speaker 1: that is standing over him or immediately over him with 515 00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:42,680 Speaker 1: this weapon and firing into this man's head not once, 516 00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:46,360 Speaker 1: not twice, but three times. Three times they're going to 517 00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:49,160 Speaker 1: get the job done. And here's another thing that you 518 00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:52,440 Speaker 1: can ascertain from the grouping, what we refer to if 519 00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:54,640 Speaker 1: you were out of a firing range, where you're looking 520 00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:57,040 Speaker 1: at the grouping of the bullet holes or defects as 521 00:30:57,080 --> 00:31:00,440 Speaker 1: we refer to them. I've never been a good shot. 522 00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:02,800 Speaker 1: I was in the Army and I barely qualified as 523 00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:06,000 Speaker 1: firing guns. I love guns. I love to talk about guns, 524 00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:09,239 Speaker 1: particularly from a forensic standpoint. I've never been good at 525 00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:11,880 Speaker 1: firing guns. I come from a family that are really good. 526 00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:15,520 Speaker 1: To my great shame, I was never a great marksman. 527 00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:17,800 Speaker 1: But this is what I know. Anytime I had to 528 00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:20,320 Speaker 1: go to the range to qualify, I know that the 529 00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:23,160 Speaker 1: closer I got to the target, the tighter my shot 530 00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:27,320 Speaker 1: group got. So if you're scoring head shots, which this 531 00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:31,680 Speaker 1: individual scored three head shots on doctor Christopher, that implies 532 00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:36,880 Speaker 1: to me that either they're a highly skilled marksman or 533 00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:41,840 Speaker 1: they're in very close proximity to doctor Osma. So what 534 00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:45,400 Speaker 1: you're telling me is the state of the body, whether 535 00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:51,440 Speaker 1: in heightened anxiety or full relaxation, changes nothing. When an 536 00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:54,000 Speaker 1: event likes this happens when you're shocked, the amount of 537 00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:58,680 Speaker 1: blood that exudes from the body doesn't change the pressure 538 00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:00,640 Speaker 1: within the side of the body, of out, how fast 539 00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:04,040 Speaker 1: the blood's going to come out, things like that. Being 540 00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:07,840 Speaker 1: awake versus being asleep makes no difference. It's not a 541 00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:11,800 Speaker 1: matter of being awake or being asleep. What matters is 542 00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:14,760 Speaker 1: is that if you're already in a sleep state and 543 00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:18,440 Speaker 1: someone shoot you in the head, you're not coming out 544 00:32:18,440 --> 00:32:20,400 Speaker 1: of that sleep state. As a matter of fact, you're 545 00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:23,760 Speaker 1: going to drift off into death because the brain has 546 00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:26,320 Speaker 1: been so damaged at that point in time. Now, if 547 00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:29,560 Speaker 1: doctor Osborne had been shots for instance, if he'd been 548 00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:32,400 Speaker 1: shot in his back and a round had passed through 549 00:32:32,440 --> 00:32:35,240 Speaker 1: his intestines, he would have come to he would have 550 00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:38,000 Speaker 1: come out of that sleep state. That might not have 551 00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:40,960 Speaker 1: been for a longng time, but he would have had 552 00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:44,960 Speaker 1: certainly have had awareness, and you would see him bleeding 553 00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:47,800 Speaker 1: out rolling around in it. Kind of the best term 554 00:32:47,880 --> 00:32:51,480 Speaker 1: I've ever been able to kind of use is writhing. 555 00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:54,280 Speaker 1: We hear that associated with pain, and it is painful. 556 00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:57,200 Speaker 1: You can imagine being shot in midsection through your bowels, 557 00:32:57,600 --> 00:33:01,000 Speaker 1: a very painful event, and there would be a pain 558 00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:04,640 Speaker 1: response at that moment in time. If his brain's not damaged, 559 00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:07,240 Speaker 1: he has an awareness of what's happened, and certainly he 560 00:33:07,320 --> 00:33:09,840 Speaker 1: still has his faculties. If you're shot like that and 561 00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:12,640 Speaker 1: the abdomen or in the back, you have an awareness 562 00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:15,000 Speaker 1: because you can hear, you can see, you can smell. 563 00:33:15,560 --> 00:33:18,080 Speaker 1: You imagine waking up, you've heard you've heard a loud 564 00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:21,840 Speaker 1: report of a weapon, and you've been shot, but you 565 00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:25,280 Speaker 1: also smell gunpowder that's hanging in the air. You know 566 00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:28,520 Speaker 1: that burned gunpowder. It gives off a very distinctive odor. 567 00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:31,120 Speaker 1: So you would have that kind of century awareness to 568 00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:35,000 Speaker 1: what's going on, and with the bleeding in that circumstance, 569 00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:38,320 Speaker 1: you'd have them writhing around in it. Lack of movement, 570 00:33:38,320 --> 00:33:42,320 Speaker 1: though many times, is indicative of a shot that literally 571 00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:44,800 Speaker 1: takes your lights out to the point where you're not 572 00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:47,760 Speaker 1: going to move at that point in time, after you've 573 00:33:47,800 --> 00:34:12,120 Speaker 1: been injured, I've often thought of evidence in terms of 574 00:34:12,160 --> 00:34:16,480 Speaker 1: whispering and screaming, and essentially what I mean by that 575 00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:20,719 Speaker 1: is that sometimes it's very gentle your sensitivity to it. 576 00:34:20,920 --> 00:34:24,000 Speaker 1: You have to have your total awareness of what's going 577 00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:27,720 Speaker 1: on and pick up on every little subtlety. Other times 578 00:34:27,760 --> 00:34:30,160 Speaker 1: you look at a circumstance and it is literally the 579 00:34:30,160 --> 00:34:34,560 Speaker 1: evidence of physical evidence you have there absolutely screams as 580 00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:37,399 Speaker 1: to what was the nature of the event. In this 581 00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:40,000 Speaker 1: particular case, I think we've got a lot of evidence 582 00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:43,319 Speaker 1: at screaming at us, Oh, screaming in day, Joe, you 583 00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:47,360 Speaker 1: were telling me how close you thought this incident happened, 584 00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:51,120 Speaker 1: And from what I've learned from you about gunshot residue, 585 00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:52,959 Speaker 1: you're really not going to get it on you after 586 00:34:53,040 --> 00:34:58,000 Speaker 1: thirty six inches will During the arguments made by Polly 587 00:34:58,080 --> 00:35:01,720 Speaker 1: Odsbourne's defense attorney and the fact that she was found 588 00:35:01,719 --> 00:35:05,400 Speaker 1: with gunshot residue on her, her attorneys were trying to 589 00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:10,239 Speaker 1: claim that it was possibly transferred to her body by 590 00:35:10,719 --> 00:35:15,000 Speaker 1: police contact with the gunshot residue. But this was what 591 00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:19,160 Speaker 1: I found most damning and most interesting about this case. 592 00:35:19,719 --> 00:35:24,000 Speaker 1: Not only was gunshot residue found on her, Joe was 593 00:35:24,040 --> 00:35:28,200 Speaker 1: found on her eyebrow. There's two chemical compounds that you 594 00:35:28,320 --> 00:35:32,600 Speaker 1: fund within a bullet. Okay, let's say live ammunition. I 595 00:35:32,640 --> 00:35:34,680 Speaker 1: don't like to use the term bullet because it means 596 00:35:34,680 --> 00:35:37,399 Speaker 1: a lot of different things to people. Bullet can be 597 00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:40,239 Speaker 1: the totality of the live round. And you've got this 598 00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:42,719 Speaker 1: lead core projectile, it's going down rain. Some people will 599 00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:44,320 Speaker 1: call that a bullet. Then they'll look at a fully 600 00:35:44,360 --> 00:35:47,560 Speaker 1: intact item of live ammunition, they'll call that a bullet. 601 00:35:47,640 --> 00:35:52,040 Speaker 1: So it's variable. But let's just say with live ammunition, 602 00:35:52,120 --> 00:35:55,600 Speaker 1: you have two chemical compounds that are at work. You 603 00:35:55,680 --> 00:36:01,480 Speaker 1: have what's referred to as propellant, and propellant is gunpowder. Okay. 604 00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:06,520 Speaker 1: Where you have the gunpowder that is actually ignited and 605 00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:10,600 Speaker 1: it drives that projectile out of the end of the barrel. Okay, 606 00:36:10,719 --> 00:36:15,080 Speaker 1: So the projectile itself is packed into the casing and 607 00:36:15,640 --> 00:36:21,080 Speaker 1: the gunpowder sits directly beneath the projectile. Now, how does 608 00:36:21,120 --> 00:36:24,680 Speaker 1: this start? How does this mechanism start? I've often described 609 00:36:24,680 --> 00:36:28,279 Speaker 1: it to my students in forensics classes. Just think of 610 00:36:28,320 --> 00:36:32,160 Speaker 1: it as a rocket ignition. So what do you ignite 611 00:36:32,640 --> 00:36:35,840 Speaker 1: the propellant with. Well, you have a primer with a 612 00:36:37,280 --> 00:36:41,520 Speaker 1: piece of ammunition, particularly thirty eight caliber thirty eight special round. 613 00:36:41,800 --> 00:36:45,759 Speaker 1: You'll have the base of the live round and you'll 614 00:36:45,800 --> 00:36:47,759 Speaker 1: see what looks like if you ever look at one, 615 00:36:47,880 --> 00:36:50,239 Speaker 1: turn it on its end and look at it looks 616 00:36:50,239 --> 00:36:53,960 Speaker 1: like a bull's eye. That little brass area right in 617 00:36:53,960 --> 00:36:57,960 Speaker 1: the center that's called the primer cap and the primer 618 00:36:58,520 --> 00:37:02,000 Speaker 1: in there. When the hammer goes forward, it strikes that primer. Well, 619 00:37:02,000 --> 00:37:07,800 Speaker 1: the primer is a bit more unstable chemically. That means 620 00:37:07,800 --> 00:37:13,120 Speaker 1: that as soon as it's touched off, it fires off vigorously, okay, 621 00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:16,399 Speaker 1: and it sends sparks up through these what are called 622 00:37:16,440 --> 00:37:20,279 Speaker 1: flasholes in the base of the live round, and it 623 00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:25,080 Speaker 1: ignites the propellant. So you've got several chemical reactions going on. 624 00:37:25,719 --> 00:37:31,000 Speaker 1: You talked about this gunshot residue, the GSR that's found 625 00:37:31,600 --> 00:37:36,319 Speaker 1: on Holly Osborne's eyebrows and on her hands. What that 626 00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:41,920 Speaker 1: means is is that when that primer initiated where's it 627 00:37:41,960 --> 00:37:44,359 Speaker 1: creates a puff of smoke. You get two puffs of smoke. 628 00:37:44,440 --> 00:37:46,239 Speaker 1: You get a puff of smoke that comes up out 629 00:37:46,280 --> 00:37:48,239 Speaker 1: of the rear of the weapon. That's going to be 630 00:37:48,280 --> 00:37:53,359 Speaker 1: the primer igniting when it strikes, and it gives off 631 00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:57,000 Speaker 1: this cloud. Just think of I'd like to use talcum powder, 632 00:37:57,000 --> 00:37:58,719 Speaker 1: And my description is a lot. If you think about 633 00:37:58,800 --> 00:38:02,719 Speaker 1: talcum powder and you open up the little vents on 634 00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:05,440 Speaker 1: the top of a bottle of talcum powder and you 635 00:38:05,480 --> 00:38:07,359 Speaker 1: squeeze it and you get that little puff in the air, 636 00:38:07,520 --> 00:38:10,320 Speaker 1: it's got to settles. It doesn't just hang in the hair, right. 637 00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:16,400 Speaker 1: So this gunshot residue is generated from this primer strike, okay, 638 00:38:16,480 --> 00:38:19,439 Speaker 1: And it's very chemically, it's very specific. So it comes 639 00:38:19,480 --> 00:38:23,480 Speaker 1: to rest generally on the backs of the hands many times. 640 00:38:23,840 --> 00:38:26,279 Speaker 1: And if you're standing like in really close or you're 641 00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:29,200 Speaker 1: holding the weapon in really close proximity to your face, 642 00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:31,719 Speaker 1: guess what it's going to do. It's going to rain 643 00:38:31,880 --> 00:38:34,400 Speaker 1: down on your face. So you catch bits of it, 644 00:38:34,440 --> 00:38:37,200 Speaker 1: for instance, in your eyebrows. It'll come to rest on 645 00:38:37,239 --> 00:38:42,279 Speaker 1: your skin. I'm actually amazed that they swapped her eyebrows. 646 00:38:42,320 --> 00:38:45,879 Speaker 1: I find that quite fascinating. But they did, and they 647 00:38:45,880 --> 00:38:49,560 Speaker 1: were able to detect gunshot residue in these areas. It 648 00:38:49,600 --> 00:38:54,520 Speaker 1: had actually deposited in these areas. The main components of 649 00:38:54,560 --> 00:39:00,400 Speaker 1: the gunshot residue are going to be things like lead, antimony, burial, 650 00:39:00,640 --> 00:39:04,080 Speaker 1: and that that kind of creates this this chemical storm, 651 00:39:04,120 --> 00:39:07,759 Speaker 1: if you will. You know, years ago before we had 652 00:39:08,040 --> 00:39:11,800 Speaker 1: scanning electronic microscopes that were widely used, they used to 653 00:39:11,920 --> 00:39:15,000 Speaker 1: use a very interesting test and it is called a 654 00:39:15,040 --> 00:39:18,160 Speaker 1: paraffin test. And so if an individual had fired a weapon, 655 00:39:18,239 --> 00:39:22,279 Speaker 1: what they would do it just imagine this. They would 656 00:39:22,280 --> 00:39:24,879 Speaker 1: take hot wax, paraffin wax, and you'd have to set 657 00:39:24,880 --> 00:39:28,120 Speaker 1: your hand in it. Okay, you'd set your hand in it. 658 00:39:28,400 --> 00:39:31,560 Speaker 1: They take a cast of the suspect's hand. The cast 659 00:39:31,600 --> 00:39:34,480 Speaker 1: would be removed, and then they would apply was referred 660 00:39:34,520 --> 00:39:38,440 Speaker 1: to as a reagent to the actual cast, this wax 661 00:39:38,600 --> 00:39:41,560 Speaker 1: cast of the hand, and you would begin to get 662 00:39:41,600 --> 00:39:44,279 Speaker 1: these hits, these color hits on there, and it would 663 00:39:44,320 --> 00:39:47,640 Speaker 1: give you the indication that you had these uh you know, 664 00:39:48,000 --> 00:39:51,399 Speaker 1: partially burned components that were left behind, and it would 665 00:39:51,440 --> 00:39:53,560 Speaker 1: it would interact with the chemicals. But it was hit 666 00:39:53,680 --> 00:39:57,319 Speaker 1: or miss. It just wasn't that accurate. And still some 667 00:39:57,360 --> 00:40:01,200 Speaker 1: people argue with gunshot ros they're not you know, they'll 668 00:40:01,239 --> 00:40:03,319 Speaker 1: still doubt the efficacy of it. And that's why the 669 00:40:03,360 --> 00:40:08,399 Speaker 1: defense attorney raised this suspicion, you know that that the 670 00:40:08,480 --> 00:40:13,399 Speaker 1: gunshot residue was actually transferred somehow i've heard in this case, 671 00:40:13,440 --> 00:40:15,400 Speaker 1: I've heard, well, it could have been transferred from the body, 672 00:40:15,680 --> 00:40:18,160 Speaker 1: because they're not denying that he was shot with this 673 00:40:18,280 --> 00:40:21,920 Speaker 1: thirty eight caliber pistol, so it was transferred from his body, 674 00:40:22,080 --> 00:40:26,040 Speaker 1: or that the police had transferred it onto her in 675 00:40:26,560 --> 00:40:30,120 Speaker 1: handling her, for instance, And that's kind of that's a 676 00:40:30,200 --> 00:40:32,759 Speaker 1: real reach. I mean, the defense attorney is doing what 677 00:40:32,840 --> 00:40:36,239 Speaker 1: defense attorneys do. They're attempting to defend this individual, and 678 00:40:36,280 --> 00:40:38,520 Speaker 1: they'll throw up any kind of seed that will plant 679 00:40:38,640 --> 00:40:41,640 Speaker 1: reasonable doubt. In this case, of course, it didn't work. 680 00:40:41,960 --> 00:40:47,239 Speaker 1: Stupid question time again. Are all gunpowders the same? No, 681 00:40:47,320 --> 00:40:50,399 Speaker 1: they're not. And that's an excellent question. As a matter 682 00:40:50,440 --> 00:40:54,160 Speaker 1: of fact, you look at you're knocking it out of 683 00:40:54,160 --> 00:40:57,120 Speaker 1: the park, hanging curveballs. The beauty of it is that 684 00:40:57,480 --> 00:40:59,839 Speaker 1: you don't even have to do a chemical test on 685 00:41:00,320 --> 00:41:04,280 Speaker 1: gunpowder to determine if it's different from the other. What's 686 00:41:04,280 --> 00:41:09,680 Speaker 1: really interesting is that gunpowder depended upon the manufacturer it. 687 00:41:10,320 --> 00:41:12,400 Speaker 1: You can look at the morphology of it and what 688 00:41:12,440 --> 00:41:15,520 Speaker 1: that means is the appearance of it under high magnification. 689 00:41:15,719 --> 00:41:21,799 Speaker 1: You'll have some gunpowder that will be disc shaped. You'll 690 00:41:21,840 --> 00:41:24,319 Speaker 1: have some of it that will be cone shaped. You'll 691 00:41:24,320 --> 00:41:26,640 Speaker 1: have some of it that are shaped into little rods, 692 00:41:27,120 --> 00:41:30,600 Speaker 1: for instance. And it's it's all deepended upon who's manufacturing this. 693 00:41:30,680 --> 00:41:34,239 Speaker 1: And of course they have the same basic chemical compound, 694 00:41:34,640 --> 00:41:40,120 Speaker 1: but they are chemically distinct. Okay, deepended upon the manufacturer 695 00:41:40,160 --> 00:41:44,040 Speaker 1: because these things are you know, their registered, the items 696 00:41:44,080 --> 00:41:48,120 Speaker 1: that are sold. Okay, there are specific signatures that you 697 00:41:48,160 --> 00:41:50,400 Speaker 1: can go back and look for. I've always been fascinated 698 00:41:50,440 --> 00:41:53,759 Speaker 1: by that little item there. From a forensic standpoint, can 699 00:41:53,840 --> 00:41:57,359 Speaker 1: you tie something back? The key is, though, how deep 700 00:41:57,400 --> 00:42:00,480 Speaker 1: are the police going to dig? How deep are people 701 00:42:00,600 --> 00:42:04,360 Speaker 1: at the forensics lab going to dig in to whatever 702 00:42:04,480 --> 00:42:08,000 Speaker 1: sample they've captured at a scene. Are they going to 703 00:42:08,040 --> 00:42:10,960 Speaker 1: be compelled enough and enthusiastic enough to go in and 704 00:42:11,000 --> 00:42:14,960 Speaker 1: examine these things? In this particular case, they were. The 705 00:42:15,160 --> 00:42:18,920 Speaker 1: other scientific reality here is that not only do we 706 00:42:19,000 --> 00:42:23,160 Speaker 1: have gunshot residue in this case, but we have what's 707 00:42:23,200 --> 00:42:28,880 Speaker 1: referred to as a distribution of gunpowder on doctor Osmond's 708 00:42:28,920 --> 00:42:32,759 Speaker 1: body here. Okay, well, what do you mean distribution like 709 00:42:33,040 --> 00:42:35,239 Speaker 1: all up and down his body? No, not all up 710 00:42:35,239 --> 00:42:38,520 Speaker 1: and down his body. But here's the key. When we 711 00:42:38,719 --> 00:42:42,080 Speaker 1: take a body into the morgue. After we've done all 712 00:42:42,120 --> 00:42:45,799 Speaker 1: of our primary trace evidence collection on a body, we 713 00:42:45,840 --> 00:42:50,719 Speaker 1: will clean the body up. Okay, that seems counterintuitive, I know, 714 00:42:50,840 --> 00:42:53,040 Speaker 1: because you want to see the body. Keep using this 715 00:42:53,200 --> 00:42:56,000 Speaker 1: term pristine. But you have to be able to appreciate 716 00:42:56,080 --> 00:42:59,560 Speaker 1: anything that's underneath, say, for instance, the blood that's on 717 00:42:59,600 --> 00:43:02,920 Speaker 1: the body, any kind of other injuries that might be 718 00:43:03,040 --> 00:43:05,040 Speaker 1: resting in it it and needs. Let's say they were for instance, 719 00:43:05,160 --> 00:43:06,440 Speaker 1: not in this case, but if you have a case 720 00:43:06,480 --> 00:43:09,319 Speaker 1: where somebody was beaten down or pistol whipped and then 721 00:43:09,360 --> 00:43:13,560 Speaker 1: they were shot. Okay, well, blood that has seeped out 722 00:43:13,560 --> 00:43:16,400 Speaker 1: of the body could cover up say contusions and that 723 00:43:16,480 --> 00:43:21,280 Speaker 1: sort of thing. But the thing about the distribution of powder, 724 00:43:21,480 --> 00:43:25,960 Speaker 1: unburned powder, specifically from a firearms related event, is that 725 00:43:26,239 --> 00:43:30,520 Speaker 1: it's not going to wash away. Unlike gun shot residue. 726 00:43:31,360 --> 00:43:33,720 Speaker 1: You have to be very careful with people that you suspect. 727 00:43:33,800 --> 00:43:36,920 Speaker 1: You cannot allow them to clean themselves up. They have 728 00:43:37,040 --> 00:43:40,000 Speaker 1: to stay in their current state when the police find them, 729 00:43:40,320 --> 00:43:43,400 Speaker 1: because you can rinse off gunshot residue. You know, if 730 00:43:43,400 --> 00:43:46,320 Speaker 1: you scrub hard enough and this sort of thing, you can, 731 00:43:46,480 --> 00:43:48,640 Speaker 1: you know, kind of get rid of it. I'll return 732 00:43:48,719 --> 00:43:50,800 Speaker 1: back to the gunshot women in just second. But here's 733 00:43:50,920 --> 00:43:54,279 Speaker 1: another little interesting part to this, and the detective was 734 00:43:54,360 --> 00:43:59,880 Speaker 1: actually assets under cross examination, and I found it very interesting. 735 00:44:00,040 --> 00:44:03,359 Speaker 1: When Ali Osborne was taken into custody, they did not 736 00:44:03,400 --> 00:44:06,840 Speaker 1: take her clothes from her for testing, So it was 737 00:44:06,960 --> 00:44:10,440 Speaker 1: kind of a moment in court, I think for the jury. 738 00:44:10,840 --> 00:44:13,239 Speaker 1: They did do just are testing on the hands and 739 00:44:13,320 --> 00:44:17,400 Speaker 1: obviously the eyebrows, which still for me is fascinating, but 740 00:44:17,480 --> 00:44:20,520 Speaker 1: they did not collect her clothing like shirt, that sort 741 00:44:20,520 --> 00:44:22,799 Speaker 1: of thing. What did I say earlier? You know about 742 00:44:22,920 --> 00:44:26,080 Speaker 1: my example with the baby powder, that cloud has got 743 00:44:26,080 --> 00:44:28,800 Speaker 1: to settle somewhere, and it can settle onto her clothing 744 00:44:28,840 --> 00:44:30,640 Speaker 1: as she's fired the weapon. So it's not just going 745 00:44:30,680 --> 00:44:32,360 Speaker 1: to be on her hands and maybe the backs of 746 00:44:32,400 --> 00:44:35,279 Speaker 1: her arms or the palmer aspects of her arms, but 747 00:44:35,320 --> 00:44:37,280 Speaker 1: it can come to rest on the fabric of the clothing. 748 00:44:37,320 --> 00:44:39,480 Speaker 1: They didn't collect her clothing, and that could be a 749 00:44:39,480 --> 00:44:42,960 Speaker 1: problem in some cases. But when you think about the 750 00:44:43,000 --> 00:44:48,160 Speaker 1: gunshot wound or wounds that doctor Osborne sustained, what the 751 00:44:48,239 --> 00:44:55,000 Speaker 1: pathologist concluded was that he had stippling patterns all over 752 00:44:55,400 --> 00:44:58,920 Speaker 1: these wounds. And what that means is that the unburned 753 00:44:58,960 --> 00:45:01,840 Speaker 1: powder and anything thing else that might come out of 754 00:45:01,920 --> 00:45:04,480 Speaker 1: the end of that muzzle. It's not just a bullet 755 00:45:04,480 --> 00:45:06,640 Speaker 1: coming out, and you've got smoke that comes out, You've 756 00:45:06,640 --> 00:45:10,799 Speaker 1: got flame that shoots out. Sometimes you've got unburned particles 757 00:45:10,840 --> 00:45:13,680 Speaker 1: of gunpowder that come out. And what happens is is 758 00:45:13,680 --> 00:45:18,960 Speaker 1: that that literally embeds itself into the tissue. And of course, 759 00:45:19,080 --> 00:45:22,160 Speaker 1: the further you move back with the end of the muzzle, 760 00:45:22,719 --> 00:45:26,560 Speaker 1: the broader the distribution of that pattern will be. Okay, 761 00:45:27,080 --> 00:45:30,600 Speaker 1: And so you can appreciate you can ascertain range of fire. Now, 762 00:45:31,000 --> 00:45:33,359 Speaker 1: I know that I have said in the past when 763 00:45:33,360 --> 00:45:35,759 Speaker 1: I said out to thirty six inches. Now let me 764 00:45:35,840 --> 00:45:38,000 Speaker 1: qualify that because I heard you mentioned that earlier. See, 765 00:45:38,040 --> 00:45:40,120 Speaker 1: I know you listen, Jackie. I just know you listen. 766 00:45:41,040 --> 00:45:43,719 Speaker 1: Thirty six inches you might be talking about a high 767 00:45:43,719 --> 00:45:47,240 Speaker 1: powered weapon, then okay, because you would have a tremendous 768 00:45:47,239 --> 00:45:51,319 Speaker 1: amount of more force. You'd certainly have more propellant that 769 00:45:51,320 --> 00:45:53,960 Speaker 1: would be coming out. But when we're talking about handguns, 770 00:45:54,000 --> 00:45:57,960 Speaker 1: most of the time you're looking about an eighteen inch range. Well, 771 00:45:58,560 --> 00:46:04,439 Speaker 1: here's what we know. These are intermediate gunshot wounds. And 772 00:46:04,560 --> 00:46:06,840 Speaker 1: the reason I know that and The reason that the 773 00:46:06,880 --> 00:46:10,680 Speaker 1: pithologists knew that is because there was a distribution pattern, 774 00:46:10,800 --> 00:46:14,000 Speaker 1: the spread, if you will, where it had deposited on 775 00:46:14,080 --> 00:46:18,080 Speaker 1: this poor man's skin as he laid their sleeping That 776 00:46:18,200 --> 00:46:22,920 Speaker 1: would give you an indication that it wasn't eighteen inches. 777 00:46:23,239 --> 00:46:26,480 Speaker 1: She moved that muzzle, they believe, anywhere from six to 778 00:46:26,800 --> 00:46:31,720 Speaker 1: nine inches away from his skin. When she pulled that trigger, 779 00:46:31,800 --> 00:46:34,920 Speaker 1: she was right on top of him. And here's another 780 00:46:34,920 --> 00:46:41,400 Speaker 1: fascinating thing when you think about that. That gunshot residue 781 00:46:41,719 --> 00:46:45,640 Speaker 1: was on her eyebrows. She was very up close in 782 00:46:45,719 --> 00:46:48,560 Speaker 1: personal when she fired this weaman. I mean she drew, 783 00:46:49,040 --> 00:46:51,160 Speaker 1: She drew that thing into her face and then she 784 00:46:51,360 --> 00:46:54,479 Speaker 1: leaned forward over his body. And she didn't just fire 785 00:46:54,560 --> 00:46:57,720 Speaker 1: once or twice. She fired three times into this man's 786 00:46:57,719 --> 00:47:00,759 Speaker 1: body that she's married too, and killed him right there 787 00:47:00,760 --> 00:47:03,440 Speaker 1: in the bed well. In shooting with the thirty eight. 788 00:47:03,520 --> 00:47:06,880 Speaker 1: Of course, learning that about the sixtensions, the first thing 789 00:47:06,960 --> 00:47:08,719 Speaker 1: I thought of was how in the world did she 790 00:47:08,840 --> 00:47:10,759 Speaker 1: keep from giving herself a black eye with from the 791 00:47:10,800 --> 00:47:15,080 Speaker 1: recoil for one, But you mentioned something a minute ago 792 00:47:15,320 --> 00:47:18,200 Speaker 1: about the residue on both of her hands. I want 793 00:47:18,200 --> 00:47:19,840 Speaker 1: to reach a sentence on which you explain it to 794 00:47:19,880 --> 00:47:24,680 Speaker 1: me that came from the report about this autopsy or 795 00:47:24,840 --> 00:47:28,839 Speaker 1: about this investigation. I mean both of her hands had 796 00:47:28,920 --> 00:47:33,200 Speaker 1: the cut off ten particles. They don't go up higher 797 00:47:33,239 --> 00:47:36,880 Speaker 1: than that. Okay, what does that mean? Ten particles? That 798 00:47:36,960 --> 00:47:40,960 Speaker 1: means ten points of identification relative to the chemical distribution 799 00:47:41,120 --> 00:47:43,520 Speaker 1: of those items. All you have to do is find ten. 800 00:47:44,200 --> 00:47:46,919 Speaker 1: You have to find ten of those. I still don't 801 00:47:47,000 --> 00:47:52,800 Speaker 1: understand ten particles. Is it like the ridges on your fingerprints? Yeah, exactly. 802 00:47:52,880 --> 00:47:56,080 Speaker 1: So if you can find ten of those particles that's 803 00:47:56,120 --> 00:47:59,480 Speaker 1: the cutoff. That means that you have chemically assessed this. 804 00:48:00,040 --> 00:48:03,040 Speaker 1: Their tolerance here and the court's tolerance because this has 805 00:48:03,080 --> 00:48:06,560 Speaker 1: passed through the membrane of scientific rigor if you will, 806 00:48:07,160 --> 00:48:10,160 Speaker 1: you know, those things that we test in court, for instance, 807 00:48:10,200 --> 00:48:12,759 Speaker 1: are those things that passed through like Daubert hearings, and 808 00:48:12,760 --> 00:48:15,040 Speaker 1: this sort of thing is an acceptable science. And what 809 00:48:15,080 --> 00:48:19,160 Speaker 1: they have determined is that ten of these components are 810 00:48:19,239 --> 00:48:24,320 Speaker 1: found on her. So for them, the court is saying 811 00:48:24,360 --> 00:48:28,680 Speaker 1: that the court has recognized that that is acceptable, that 812 00:48:28,680 --> 00:48:32,760 Speaker 1: that is demonstrative of the fact she has gunshot residue 813 00:48:32,840 --> 00:48:35,720 Speaker 1: on her, and that that is solid enough to stand 814 00:48:35,800 --> 00:48:39,560 Speaker 1: up in court. That's precisely what it means. Ten particles. 815 00:48:39,920 --> 00:48:42,080 Speaker 1: Give me an example of what I'm just trying to 816 00:48:42,160 --> 00:48:45,279 Speaker 1: understand of what a particle would be. I still don't 817 00:48:45,400 --> 00:48:47,840 Speaker 1: understand what that means. Where you're talking about the breakdown 818 00:48:47,880 --> 00:48:53,799 Speaker 1: components of the gunpowder residue itself. Yeah, yeah, and it 819 00:48:53,840 --> 00:48:57,640 Speaker 1: can be the components itself. You can actually find lead 820 00:48:57,880 --> 00:49:00,319 Speaker 1: that's associated with this. You can find ser it off 821 00:49:00,320 --> 00:49:04,000 Speaker 1: pieces of brass in there sometimes. So you find a 822 00:49:04,040 --> 00:49:08,319 Speaker 1: base number of ten of these components present on the 823 00:49:08,360 --> 00:49:11,880 Speaker 1: individual's hands when you're going to test her, and you 824 00:49:11,920 --> 00:49:18,240 Speaker 1: know the structure of gunshot residue is not simply lead, antimonium, barium. 825 00:49:18,280 --> 00:49:21,440 Speaker 1: There are other associated elements that are considered in this. 826 00:49:22,080 --> 00:49:25,000 Speaker 1: You can have things like calcium, you can have silicone 827 00:49:25,040 --> 00:49:27,480 Speaker 1: in there, there are any number of other things. And 828 00:49:27,520 --> 00:49:30,880 Speaker 1: so you find this combination of ten that's enough of 829 00:49:30,920 --> 00:49:33,319 Speaker 1: a baseline to establish that she did in fact have 830 00:49:33,719 --> 00:49:38,160 Speaker 1: gunshot residue on her and putting together the evidence against 831 00:49:38,160 --> 00:49:43,560 Speaker 1: Holly Osbourne, not only was gunshot residue found on her hands, 832 00:49:44,360 --> 00:49:49,319 Speaker 1: but her DNA was found on the guns because the 833 00:49:49,400 --> 00:49:52,799 Speaker 1: guns were in her home, and you would imagine that yes, 834 00:49:52,840 --> 00:49:55,800 Speaker 1: her DNA would be on it. How did it prove 835 00:49:56,360 --> 00:49:59,279 Speaker 1: that she was the perpetrator? You know, it's one thing 836 00:49:59,320 --> 00:50:02,960 Speaker 1: if you just up a pistol, say for instance, by 837 00:50:03,000 --> 00:50:06,920 Speaker 1: the pistol grip, and you transfer your DNA onto that surface. 838 00:50:07,800 --> 00:50:13,839 Speaker 1: But if your DNA completely envelops the backside of the 839 00:50:13,880 --> 00:50:18,160 Speaker 1: housing of that weapon and you find, say, for instance, 840 00:50:18,480 --> 00:50:22,560 Speaker 1: your DNA deposited on the trigger, the trigger housing, or 841 00:50:22,600 --> 00:50:24,480 Speaker 1: when you went to check to see if it was 842 00:50:24,600 --> 00:50:26,960 Speaker 1: loaded and you opened up the cylinder. Because this was 843 00:50:27,000 --> 00:50:29,239 Speaker 1: a revolver, there's a lot of action that goes on 844 00:50:29,280 --> 00:50:31,480 Speaker 1: with a revolver to kind of maintain it and to 845 00:50:31,600 --> 00:50:34,759 Speaker 1: see if it's a hot weapon. If you will, you're 846 00:50:34,800 --> 00:50:37,279 Speaker 1: touching it all over the place. It's one thing just 847 00:50:37,320 --> 00:50:39,480 Speaker 1: to kind of passively pick it up and move it 848 00:50:39,520 --> 00:50:42,800 Speaker 1: to another location. But when you've got that much touching 849 00:50:42,840 --> 00:50:45,719 Speaker 1: going on, it's one more element in this case that 850 00:50:45,760 --> 00:50:48,440 Speaker 1: puts that weapon in her hand and eventually has that 851 00:50:48,520 --> 00:50:51,920 Speaker 1: muzzle pointed at the back of doctor Osborne's head. Holly 852 00:50:52,000 --> 00:50:55,880 Speaker 1: Osborne was convicted of murder in the death of her husband. 853 00:50:56,280 --> 00:50:59,840 Speaker 1: She has been sentenced to eighteen years to life in prison. 854 00:51:03,840 --> 00:51:07,560 Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Moore, and this is body bags.