1 00:00:05,120 --> 00:00:12,039 Speaker 1: June two thousand thirteen, Chilled and one Robinson that Walmart, 2 00:00:14,240 --> 00:00:17,080 Speaker 1: and you can hear the fear and panic and rain 3 00:00:17,160 --> 00:00:21,520 Speaker 1: Perry Winkle's voice, shortly after her daughter, Cherished disappears from 4 00:00:21,600 --> 00:00:25,360 Speaker 1: the Walmart purely get back. You want to him. He 5 00:00:25,560 --> 00:00:28,360 Speaker 1: befriended them both, offering to buy them snacks at a 6 00:00:28,400 --> 00:00:31,320 Speaker 1: Walmart store. Instead of doing that, they say, he took 7 00:00:31,440 --> 00:00:35,599 Speaker 1: eight year old Cherish Perry Winkle and killed her. Her 8 00:00:35,640 --> 00:00:39,400 Speaker 1: body found in a wooded area. This is Crime Stories 9 00:00:39,440 --> 00:00:43,960 Speaker 1: with Nancy Grace. Donald Smith is charged with murder and kidnapping, 10 00:00:44,120 --> 00:00:47,120 Speaker 1: and he is a registered sex offender. Smith's trial, he's 11 00:00:47,159 --> 00:00:51,080 Speaker 1: from the late several times already, Cherish, I'll feel in 12 00:00:51,200 --> 00:00:57,800 Speaker 1: head it and and I hope you'll memento me. I 13 00:00:57,840 --> 00:01:02,720 Speaker 1: guess every three days, you know, to be fair, let's 14 00:01:02,760 --> 00:01:07,280 Speaker 1: just say once a week, I am in a Target 15 00:01:08,280 --> 00:01:12,840 Speaker 1: or a Kroger, or a public X or a Costco 16 00:01:13,200 --> 00:01:17,720 Speaker 1: or a Walmart with my children and it's just me 17 00:01:18,000 --> 00:01:22,319 Speaker 1: and them. I've been on crowded New York streets many, 18 00:01:22,360 --> 00:01:28,800 Speaker 1: many times, in museums, you name it. And I'm wondering 19 00:01:28,959 --> 00:01:36,319 Speaker 1: about that moment when you realize within that crowd, that 20 00:01:36,440 --> 00:01:44,920 Speaker 1: you really are alone. Your child is gone. That is 21 00:01:44,959 --> 00:01:50,520 Speaker 1: a story of a little girl named Cherish Perrywinkle, an 22 00:01:50,600 --> 00:01:57,280 Speaker 1: eight year old little girl. I'm Nancy Grace. This is 23 00:01:57,360 --> 00:02:02,160 Speaker 1: crime Stories. Thank you for being with us, with me, 24 00:02:03,440 --> 00:02:09,680 Speaker 1: long time friend and champion. I guess that's really the 25 00:02:09,760 --> 00:02:13,000 Speaker 1: only word I could use to describe him. He's a champion. 26 00:02:14,280 --> 00:02:19,480 Speaker 1: Mark Class is with me, who went to Hell and 27 00:02:19,600 --> 00:02:23,520 Speaker 1: looked the devil in the face and came back to 28 00:02:23,639 --> 00:02:30,960 Speaker 1: this earth as a champion for victims, for crime victims. Well, 29 00:02:31,080 --> 00:02:33,040 Speaker 1: I guess that says it all about how I feel 30 00:02:33,040 --> 00:02:37,240 Speaker 1: about you, Mark, Class, founder of Class Kids. After your 31 00:02:37,280 --> 00:02:42,960 Speaker 1: little girl Polly went missing and was murdered. From that 32 00:02:43,040 --> 00:02:46,040 Speaker 1: point on, your life has been about one thing, and 33 00:02:46,120 --> 00:02:50,800 Speaker 1: that is helping to find missing people, no matter what 34 00:02:50,880 --> 00:02:54,280 Speaker 1: it takes. Thank you for being with me, Mark, Well, 35 00:02:54,320 --> 00:02:56,800 Speaker 1: thank you for having me Nancy, and I can assure 36 00:02:56,880 --> 00:03:01,760 Speaker 1: you it's a it's a mutual for I. I've enjoyed 37 00:03:02,160 --> 00:03:04,080 Speaker 1: knowing you and working with you in the past, and 38 00:03:04,120 --> 00:03:07,360 Speaker 1: I'm very excited about this opportunity as well. You know, 39 00:03:08,040 --> 00:03:12,079 Speaker 1: Cherish Perrywinkle was with her mother and everybody starts a 40 00:03:12,240 --> 00:03:16,320 Speaker 1: story at Walmart, but that is not where the story starts. 41 00:03:16,320 --> 00:03:20,960 Speaker 1: The story does not start in Walmart. The story actually starts. 42 00:03:21,560 --> 00:03:24,520 Speaker 1: And I think it was a family Dollar or a 43 00:03:24,600 --> 00:03:30,600 Speaker 1: Dollar General, and cherishes mom had her there and they 44 00:03:30,600 --> 00:03:34,720 Speaker 1: were buying some clothes for Cherish and her sister. And 45 00:03:34,720 --> 00:03:39,160 Speaker 1: it's the mom and the two girls and they try 46 00:03:39,200 --> 00:03:41,640 Speaker 1: to go to check out, and the mom doesn't have 47 00:03:41,760 --> 00:03:47,600 Speaker 1: enough money and insteps a man and he says, oh, man, 48 00:03:48,120 --> 00:03:50,640 Speaker 1: you're having a problem. You know what, let me cover that, 49 00:03:51,480 --> 00:03:53,480 Speaker 1: and you know what else, I'm about to meet my 50 00:03:53,520 --> 00:03:59,160 Speaker 1: wife up the street at Walmart. Bring your girls up there. 51 00:04:00,040 --> 00:04:02,720 Speaker 1: I've got some money. I'm gonna buy you guys some clothes. 52 00:04:04,280 --> 00:04:09,440 Speaker 1: So Rain Perrywinkle and her it's three daughters including Cherish, 53 00:04:09,680 --> 00:04:15,360 Speaker 1: get together and they go up to the Walmart. There 54 00:04:15,400 --> 00:04:20,120 Speaker 1: you see a gray haired man looks like an old grandpa, 55 00:04:20,880 --> 00:04:25,680 Speaker 1: Donald Smith inside the Walmart. And it's a it's a superstore, 56 00:04:26,400 --> 00:04:28,760 Speaker 1: right mark. It's one of those big ones that has, 57 00:04:29,320 --> 00:04:31,560 Speaker 1: you know, places to eat in it, you can get 58 00:04:31,560 --> 00:04:35,359 Speaker 1: your hair cut there, just the works. It's probably a 59 00:04:35,400 --> 00:04:42,039 Speaker 1: tire place everything. And they're in their shopping and I've 60 00:04:42,080 --> 00:04:48,000 Speaker 1: looked at the surveillance video very very carefully and the 61 00:04:48,040 --> 00:04:51,240 Speaker 1: guy says, they've been shopping for a while and they're 62 00:04:51,240 --> 00:04:54,360 Speaker 1: waiting on his wife to get there. And he goes, hey, 63 00:04:54,440 --> 00:04:55,800 Speaker 1: you know what, I don't want to make your kids 64 00:04:55,839 --> 00:04:59,160 Speaker 1: wait anymore. Let's go up front to the McDonald's. Come on, cherfs, 65 00:04:59,200 --> 00:05:01,760 Speaker 1: let's go up there and get some date. And the 66 00:05:01,800 --> 00:05:03,760 Speaker 1: mom says, okay, I'll be right out there. It's within 67 00:05:03,920 --> 00:05:10,000 Speaker 1: the same structure, it's you know what, eighty feet away, 68 00:05:10,120 --> 00:05:18,520 Speaker 1: and she never sees Cherish again. Cherish is kidnapped, brutally raped, 69 00:05:18,800 --> 00:05:22,280 Speaker 1: and murdered, and there's no doubt about that. And her 70 00:05:22,320 --> 00:05:27,840 Speaker 1: body isn't submerged halfway down beneath a tree and a 71 00:05:28,040 --> 00:05:34,160 Speaker 1: swampy muddy. All I can say is a ditch, that's 72 00:05:34,160 --> 00:05:38,680 Speaker 1: what happened to Cherish that fast. You know, we can 73 00:05:38,760 --> 00:05:41,960 Speaker 1: blame the mo I'm sure, and I see things that 74 00:05:42,000 --> 00:05:46,840 Speaker 1: she did wrong, of course, But you know, Mark, she's 75 00:05:46,880 --> 00:05:50,919 Speaker 1: not the villain in this scenario. He is, and he 76 00:05:51,040 --> 00:05:55,080 Speaker 1: was a villain long before he came into contact with 77 00:05:55,360 --> 00:06:00,400 Speaker 1: Cherish and her mother, because he was already a top 78 00:06:00,440 --> 00:06:04,359 Speaker 1: tier registered sex offender in the state of Florida. I 79 00:06:04,400 --> 00:06:06,560 Speaker 1: don't get it. I don't get why he's out walking 80 00:06:06,600 --> 00:06:10,400 Speaker 1: around to start with, and if I'm correct, his previous 81 00:06:10,480 --> 00:06:16,880 Speaker 1: offenses were for crimes on girls. That's correct, Nancy, And 82 00:06:17,080 --> 00:06:20,120 Speaker 1: you know is bad as that sounds. I mean, right 83 00:06:20,120 --> 00:06:23,960 Speaker 1: now here in the state of California, there is UH 84 00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:27,479 Speaker 1: an effort supported by all of the p o A s, 85 00:06:27,720 --> 00:06:31,280 Speaker 1: all of the d a's associations that in effect will 86 00:06:31,360 --> 00:06:35,800 Speaker 1: gut Megan's Law and basically take two thirds of the 87 00:06:35,880 --> 00:06:40,039 Speaker 1: individuals that are currently registering on a yearly basis and 88 00:06:40,080 --> 00:06:44,040 Speaker 1: that the public has asked access to and eliminate them 89 00:06:44,080 --> 00:06:49,200 Speaker 1: from the from the from the roles altogether. So we're 90 00:06:49,200 --> 00:06:52,880 Speaker 1: starting to see a trend in this country, and California 91 00:06:52,920 --> 00:06:57,200 Speaker 1: is oftentimes a bell weather state of dumbing down great 92 00:06:57,279 --> 00:06:59,640 Speaker 1: laws like Megan's Laws. So we won't even have those 93 00:06:59,720 --> 00:07:05,120 Speaker 1: kinds protections anymore. Mark, why is this happening? Well, Anty, 94 00:07:05,200 --> 00:07:08,039 Speaker 1: I think one of the reasons is that we have 95 00:07:08,200 --> 00:07:12,280 Speaker 1: an entire generation of of people that have grown up 96 00:07:12,560 --> 00:07:15,840 Speaker 1: in a very safe society. You know, when when Pauli 97 00:07:15,920 --> 00:07:18,800 Speaker 1: was kidnapped back in ninety three, we were pretty much 98 00:07:18,800 --> 00:07:21,480 Speaker 1: in the middle of a crime epidemic in this country. 99 00:07:21,520 --> 00:07:24,760 Speaker 1: We had crime rates for violent and non violent crime 100 00:07:24,800 --> 00:07:27,160 Speaker 1: that had really never been seen in this country before. 101 00:07:27,640 --> 00:07:30,880 Speaker 1: And as a result, a lot of laws Megan's Law, 102 00:07:31,280 --> 00:07:35,800 Speaker 1: the Amber Alert, ultimately UH Truth and Sentencing UM three 103 00:07:35,800 --> 00:07:39,360 Speaker 1: strikes and year outward past to hold criminals accountable for 104 00:07:39,400 --> 00:07:43,600 Speaker 1: their actions. And over the course of the next several years, 105 00:07:44,040 --> 00:07:48,560 Speaker 1: we put that that percentage of individuals who commit Haines 106 00:07:48,600 --> 00:07:52,480 Speaker 1: crime behind bars and kept them behind bars, and crime 107 00:07:52,560 --> 00:07:56,640 Speaker 1: rates absolutely plummeted. So here we are twenty years later 108 00:07:56,680 --> 00:07:59,440 Speaker 1: in a situation where we kind of live in relatively 109 00:07:59,480 --> 00:08:02,720 Speaker 1: safe xiety. We're not seeing the kinds of crimes that 110 00:08:02,760 --> 00:08:06,200 Speaker 1: we've ever seen before in this country. There's two hundred 111 00:08:06,280 --> 00:08:09,960 Speaker 1: thousand fewer children being reported missing every year now than 112 00:08:10,040 --> 00:08:14,119 Speaker 1: the word back in the day. And I think people 113 00:08:14,160 --> 00:08:18,400 Speaker 1: are complacent and as a result of that UM governments 114 00:08:18,480 --> 00:08:23,400 Speaker 1: are are easy up on criminal justice statutes and criminals 115 00:08:23,400 --> 00:08:26,920 Speaker 1: are no longer being held accountable, and we're seeing crime 116 00:08:27,000 --> 00:08:29,880 Speaker 1: rates go up again yet again. I guess it will 117 00:08:29,920 --> 00:08:33,480 Speaker 1: take cases like Cherish, Pyra, Winkles and Murdyr to be 118 00:08:33,600 --> 00:08:37,680 Speaker 1: publicized to make lawmakers think twice. It will take more 119 00:08:37,720 --> 00:08:40,160 Speaker 1: crime bactiesn't before people come to their senses on the 120 00:08:40,240 --> 00:08:44,360 Speaker 1: laws you are describing. If you don't believe me, take 121 00:08:44,400 --> 00:08:48,440 Speaker 1: a listen to cherish his mother when she calls nine 122 00:08:48,480 --> 00:08:55,640 Speaker 1: one one one Robinson. Hi, that will almost uninteresting and taken? 123 00:08:56,280 --> 00:09:03,160 Speaker 1: What do you mean taken by stranger? I can't priser? Okay, man? 124 00:09:03,200 --> 00:09:09,079 Speaker 1: How and you say you have the Walmart old In Turner? Yes, 125 00:09:09,240 --> 00:09:15,320 Speaker 1: I am okay. When was where did you last her at? 126 00:09:18,040 --> 00:09:20,880 Speaker 1: I made him in today Dollar General. He saw that 127 00:09:20,880 --> 00:09:24,600 Speaker 1: I was struggling to buy them some clothes. Keep hervous 128 00:09:24,720 --> 00:09:27,800 Speaker 1: here to buy us some clothes. And the only reason 129 00:09:27,840 --> 00:09:30,040 Speaker 1: I went with him because she said his wife was 130 00:09:30,120 --> 00:09:32,760 Speaker 1: gonna be here because I told him I gonna take 131 00:09:32,880 --> 00:09:38,480 Speaker 1: rides with strangers. Okay, man, what' and her her last name? 132 00:09:39,679 --> 00:09:42,559 Speaker 1: Can you start up on me please? And is she 133 00:09:42,600 --> 00:09:46,080 Speaker 1: a white female? Black female? Excuse me? Is she a 134 00:09:46,080 --> 00:09:52,200 Speaker 1: white or black female? What? What case? From? No? Remember 135 00:09:52,280 --> 00:09:54,800 Speaker 1: what course she's wearing because I'm panicking right now. I'm 136 00:09:54,800 --> 00:09:58,080 Speaker 1: trying to notathantic. Okay. And she was lasting what this 137 00:09:58,200 --> 00:10:00,959 Speaker 1: man is she went? He said he was going to 138 00:10:01,040 --> 00:10:05,720 Speaker 1: McDonald's And he, dude, he doesn't been there because the 139 00:10:05,800 --> 00:10:11,000 Speaker 1: store is closed right now? Okay? Is he a white 140 00:10:11,000 --> 00:10:13,560 Speaker 1: man or a black man? The white man's he's got 141 00:10:13,600 --> 00:10:17,360 Speaker 1: white short hair, and he's got dark eyebrows. He said, dark, 142 00:10:17,760 --> 00:10:23,199 Speaker 1: dark short hair. No, he's got white hair, his dark eyebrows. 143 00:10:27,080 --> 00:10:28,920 Speaker 1: I had a strange feeling get back he when I 144 00:10:28,960 --> 00:10:31,000 Speaker 1: first met him, and he took her to the He 145 00:10:31,120 --> 00:10:35,120 Speaker 1: took her to the to the dressing room twice, and 146 00:10:35,200 --> 00:10:37,760 Speaker 1: I was hoping that she would be okay, and I 147 00:10:37,840 --> 00:10:40,839 Speaker 1: was looking at the shoes and I didn't want him 148 00:10:40,880 --> 00:10:44,400 Speaker 1: to think that I was overly protective freaking out. But 149 00:10:44,520 --> 00:10:49,640 Speaker 1: now they're not here, and I find it very odd 150 00:10:49,720 --> 00:10:54,480 Speaker 1: because he knew that. Okay, man, what called a vehicle? 151 00:10:54,559 --> 00:11:00,160 Speaker 1: Does he drive? That's a white fan that Do you 152 00:11:00,200 --> 00:11:02,679 Speaker 1: remember any stickers or anything on the side of the van, 153 00:11:02,800 --> 00:11:04,480 Speaker 1: anything that you can remember at all? Did he have 154 00:11:04,559 --> 00:11:09,160 Speaker 1: tenant windows or anything? And know he's got Corton in 155 00:11:09,200 --> 00:11:14,880 Speaker 1: the name. And then tricked a good look and he said, 156 00:11:14,880 --> 00:11:18,600 Speaker 1: what I did, take a good look at the vands. Okay, 157 00:11:18,679 --> 00:11:20,679 Speaker 1: do you remember what? Did you see any tag on 158 00:11:20,720 --> 00:11:25,200 Speaker 1: it or anything? Want a tag? No? I didn't look 159 00:11:25,200 --> 00:11:30,160 Speaker 1: at that. They're like a fool. Okay, can't you remember 160 00:11:30,160 --> 00:11:33,800 Speaker 1: what he had on? No? I don't remember anything because 161 00:11:33,840 --> 00:11:37,520 Speaker 1: I'm kindicking right now, okay, man, what's your name? My name, 162 00:11:39,480 --> 00:11:44,439 Speaker 1: he said, his name is Don. He said he was 163 00:11:44,480 --> 00:11:46,640 Speaker 1: supposed to beat his wife here, and he's why they 164 00:11:46,640 --> 00:11:48,680 Speaker 1: were showing up. But I couldn't figure out why his 165 00:11:48,760 --> 00:11:54,600 Speaker 1: wife did hen show up at Dollar General. And he 166 00:11:54,679 --> 00:11:56,640 Speaker 1: told you that he y'all were gonna meet his wife 167 00:11:56,640 --> 00:12:00,400 Speaker 1: at um the Walmart. This first, she was suposed to 168 00:12:00,400 --> 00:12:03,360 Speaker 1: shop at Dollar General and then he was gonna meet 169 00:12:03,440 --> 00:12:07,120 Speaker 1: with her at at Walmart. And we've been here probably 170 00:12:07,200 --> 00:12:12,840 Speaker 1: two hours, and she didn't show up. And I had 171 00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:15,400 Speaker 1: had this card full of clothes and he said he 172 00:12:15,480 --> 00:12:18,360 Speaker 1: was going to pay for with a hundred dollar gift card. 173 00:12:18,400 --> 00:12:23,040 Speaker 1: And I excuse me. I had a bad feeling. I thought, well, 174 00:12:24,360 --> 00:12:26,839 Speaker 1: I feel like pinching myself because this is too good 175 00:12:26,920 --> 00:12:29,600 Speaker 1: to be true. So I got to the checkout. He's 176 00:12:29,640 --> 00:12:34,800 Speaker 1: not here. Isn't here. Now I'm hoping he's not raping 177 00:12:34,840 --> 00:12:37,719 Speaker 1: her right now, because I've had that done to me. 178 00:12:39,040 --> 00:12:48,200 Speaker 1: It's not it's not the fun mcause she's she's supposed 179 00:12:48,200 --> 00:12:50,760 Speaker 1: to go to shell A, Florida in the morning. Who 180 00:12:50,960 --> 00:12:53,880 Speaker 1: the plane And he knows as I told him this, 181 00:12:54,559 --> 00:12:58,720 Speaker 1: he knew when the store was closing, he had a 182 00:12:58,760 --> 00:13:01,760 Speaker 1: bad feeling about him. Okay, how long have you been 183 00:13:01,800 --> 00:13:03,640 Speaker 1: looking for you? When was the last time he saw? 184 00:13:04,080 --> 00:13:09,240 Speaker 1: How long ago? About half an hour ago? Got ready 185 00:13:09,360 --> 00:13:12,840 Speaker 1: for her for half an hour. Yes, there's nobody in 186 00:13:12,880 --> 00:13:17,080 Speaker 1: the store, and he knew the store was closy. He 187 00:13:17,240 --> 00:13:19,480 Speaker 1: said he was good to McDonald's. She went with him. 188 00:13:19,480 --> 00:13:24,559 Speaker 1: I should have told her to stay with me. He 189 00:13:24,720 --> 00:13:27,520 Speaker 1: was going to the McDonald's inside of the store. Yes, 190 00:13:27,559 --> 00:13:30,960 Speaker 1: there's a McDonald's, has said the store. He wasn't here. Oh, 191 00:13:31,200 --> 00:13:33,679 Speaker 1: somebody said they told him, but she's not here. He 192 00:13:33,720 --> 00:13:38,400 Speaker 1: should have had the uh, the nerves to stay here 193 00:13:38,400 --> 00:13:50,040 Speaker 1: and wait. She must go the panicking butt out. Okay, man, 194 00:13:50,080 --> 00:13:52,400 Speaker 1: why are you in the store? Now? Are you outside 195 00:13:52,480 --> 00:13:54,360 Speaker 1: or where? So? I'm in the front of the store. 196 00:13:54,520 --> 00:13:57,320 Speaker 1: I think I need to hang up because no, man, 197 00:13:57,440 --> 00:14:01,360 Speaker 1: are you a white emale, black emil? So? Do you 198 00:14:01,400 --> 00:14:04,240 Speaker 1: have on that's five a what call a shirt do 199 00:14:04,320 --> 00:14:08,040 Speaker 1: you have on? I have on a short black polka 200 00:14:08,120 --> 00:14:14,560 Speaker 1: dot dress and brown flip flop sandals. Do have long 201 00:14:14,640 --> 00:14:19,320 Speaker 1: red hair? Are you right in front of the store? 202 00:14:21,400 --> 00:14:25,200 Speaker 1: Exuse me? Who are you talking to the Walmart employee? 203 00:14:25,240 --> 00:14:28,160 Speaker 1: They're they're talking to my girls? Because I haven't had 204 00:14:28,160 --> 00:14:32,560 Speaker 1: anything to eat. What's you say, ma'am? I haven't had 205 00:14:32,600 --> 00:14:35,320 Speaker 1: anything to eat for the Walmart employee was talking to 206 00:14:35,400 --> 00:14:39,520 Speaker 1: my girls, talking to your who my girls? Okay, you 207 00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:42,080 Speaker 1: have more kids with you? Yes, I have to my 208 00:14:42,240 --> 00:14:47,120 Speaker 1: other ones. I think he I think he took her. Okay, man, 209 00:14:47,200 --> 00:14:50,360 Speaker 1: you have do you think she's been hiking? You say 210 00:14:50,400 --> 00:14:54,280 Speaker 1: you have other kids with you? Yes? I do. He was, 211 00:14:54,480 --> 00:15:06,640 Speaker 1: he was he was giving too much attention. Kay. He 212 00:15:06,760 --> 00:15:10,360 Speaker 1: wanted her to buy these really tall shoes that were 213 00:15:10,400 --> 00:15:12,800 Speaker 1: women's shoes, and I told him no, I said there's 214 00:15:12,840 --> 00:15:17,640 Speaker 1: too high for her. I wouldn't even where shoes that high. 215 00:15:18,120 --> 00:15:20,640 Speaker 1: Maybe he was grooming her out. To God, he doesn't 216 00:15:20,760 --> 00:15:24,560 Speaker 1: kill her, and not to God, he doesn't rape birth. Okay, 217 00:15:24,600 --> 00:15:27,240 Speaker 1: And when did you meet him today? I met him 218 00:15:27,240 --> 00:15:31,040 Speaker 1: that Dollar General on Edgewood. I was struggling with my 219 00:15:31,120 --> 00:15:33,720 Speaker 1: money to buy the girl some clothes. And he saw 220 00:15:33,760 --> 00:15:37,280 Speaker 1: that what I was doing, and he waited for us 221 00:15:37,360 --> 00:15:40,800 Speaker 1: outside the stores, and he said that he was waiting 222 00:15:40,800 --> 00:15:43,960 Speaker 1: on his wife to show up, and so I waited 223 00:15:43,960 --> 00:15:46,240 Speaker 1: around to meet her and she didn't show up, and 224 00:15:46,280 --> 00:15:49,000 Speaker 1: then he said he was going to give us a 225 00:15:49,120 --> 00:15:53,120 Speaker 1: ride over here to Walmart, and then we waited in 226 00:15:53,160 --> 00:15:56,360 Speaker 1: the parking lot for maybe twenty minutes for her to 227 00:15:56,400 --> 00:15:59,240 Speaker 1: show up. She didn't show up, so we all went 228 00:15:59,280 --> 00:16:06,280 Speaker 1: into the store. We've been here about two hours and 229 00:16:06,400 --> 00:16:10,680 Speaker 1: she didn't show up. And I don't understand why he 230 00:16:10,680 --> 00:16:12,600 Speaker 1: would leave right now unless he's got a right, right 231 00:16:12,680 --> 00:16:16,400 Speaker 1: killer the taily reason, I'm wasting my tim standing here, 232 00:16:17,480 --> 00:16:19,480 Speaker 1: You're not wasting your time, and we have officers on 233 00:16:19,520 --> 00:16:27,680 Speaker 1: my way to you. I can't remember what wary. I 234 00:16:27,800 --> 00:16:31,360 Speaker 1: need to sit down became they closed my eyes and 235 00:16:31,480 --> 00:16:37,880 Speaker 1: trying to remember what wary. Okay, man, I'm just standing 236 00:16:37,880 --> 00:16:40,000 Speaker 1: frunning the store and then and yes, try to think 237 00:16:40,040 --> 00:16:42,160 Speaker 1: about what she's wearing and what he's wearing, so when 238 00:16:42,160 --> 00:16:45,280 Speaker 1: the officers get there, you can tell them, okay, yeah, okay, 239 00:16:45,320 --> 00:16:47,840 Speaker 1: can you think of anything else about the van or anything? 240 00:16:49,040 --> 00:16:51,400 Speaker 1: And he had a line around the van as if 241 00:16:51,440 --> 00:16:55,920 Speaker 1: it were maybe a mental a middle. I'm not a 242 00:16:55,960 --> 00:17:00,280 Speaker 1: sticker that maybe I don't know how it's played like 243 00:17:00,320 --> 00:17:03,400 Speaker 1: a like a pinstripe. You remember all one color the 244 00:17:03,480 --> 00:17:07,240 Speaker 1: line wise, I think it was dark, maybe like a silver. 245 00:17:12,480 --> 00:17:15,520 Speaker 1: And it had a big space in the middle of 246 00:17:15,560 --> 00:17:18,520 Speaker 1: the van where he had taken out where he had 247 00:17:18,560 --> 00:17:21,000 Speaker 1: taken out a couple of seats, said he put my 248 00:17:21,080 --> 00:17:23,400 Speaker 1: stroller in there, or I put the stroller in there. 249 00:17:26,400 --> 00:17:32,840 Speaker 1: M h. I don't want him to kill it, or 250 00:17:33,560 --> 00:17:36,800 Speaker 1: I want to be one of those parents that very 251 00:17:36,880 --> 00:17:45,840 Speaker 1: going through this. I steel I feel responsible because I 252 00:17:45,840 --> 00:17:48,960 Speaker 1: I totally when I first met he that uh says 253 00:17:49,160 --> 00:17:51,159 Speaker 1: a little bit scared of it because I thought he 254 00:17:51,200 --> 00:17:53,720 Speaker 1: was waiting to rob us outside the dollor in general, 255 00:17:53,800 --> 00:17:56,880 Speaker 1: because he was just staying there. And he said, well, 256 00:17:57,320 --> 00:18:01,520 Speaker 1: if you really want that dress for I don't get 257 00:18:01,560 --> 00:18:08,320 Speaker 1: it for her. I should have told him no, my 258 00:18:08,840 --> 00:18:12,480 Speaker 1: my girls need closer beds. Why I let him do it? 259 00:18:12,560 --> 00:18:15,600 Speaker 1: But I'm so sorry these ladies have to put all 260 00:18:15,640 --> 00:18:25,520 Speaker 1: the clothes back in the store. Can't you remember anything 261 00:18:25,560 --> 00:18:27,720 Speaker 1: else about him whenever you were talking to him. Did 262 00:18:27,720 --> 00:18:31,040 Speaker 1: he sounds funny, like he had an accident, accent or anything, 263 00:18:31,280 --> 00:18:34,159 Speaker 1: or he said he works for habitacks? He said he 264 00:18:34,200 --> 00:18:42,440 Speaker 1: worked for habitats. Yes. Did he say where they lived? No, 265 00:18:42,520 --> 00:18:48,160 Speaker 1: I don't remember that. He said his wife is from 266 00:18:48,160 --> 00:18:50,760 Speaker 1: the Virgin Islands. We had a little chat in the 267 00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:59,760 Speaker 1: in the van all the way over. And did he 268 00:18:59,800 --> 00:19:01,720 Speaker 1: say he lived on my side of town or anything 269 00:19:01,960 --> 00:19:03,920 Speaker 1: he said he was. He didn't. He didn't know this 270 00:19:04,040 --> 00:19:06,600 Speaker 1: part of town. He wasn't sure about this part of town. 271 00:19:13,119 --> 00:19:16,760 Speaker 1: Oh gosh, he knows the store is closed. He knows 272 00:19:16,840 --> 00:19:19,640 Speaker 1: McDonald's is closed. One of the world would he takes. 273 00:19:20,480 --> 00:19:22,200 Speaker 1: I don't see the van in the in the parking 274 00:19:22,200 --> 00:19:28,159 Speaker 1: lot or anything where y'all left it. Well, have you 275 00:19:28,200 --> 00:19:31,600 Speaker 1: been outside to the parking lot? I went outside the door, 276 00:19:32,680 --> 00:19:35,480 Speaker 1: but I don't I don't think I see the van. 277 00:19:38,200 --> 00:19:43,400 Speaker 1: I'll tek. Yeah, yeah, he took hers, he took it away. Okay, 278 00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:45,840 Speaker 1: who are you speaking with, ma'am. I'm speaking to a 279 00:19:45,920 --> 00:19:55,040 Speaker 1: Walmart employees. Oh my gosh, Oh my god. Are you 280 00:19:55,119 --> 00:19:58,480 Speaker 1: outside now, ma'am? Yeah, there's Chick police officers. That Chick 281 00:19:58,480 --> 00:20:04,040 Speaker 1: police closed. Go ahead to speak with officers. Even after 282 00:20:04,040 --> 00:20:07,399 Speaker 1: this nine one one call Mark Class, the response to 283 00:20:07,520 --> 00:20:13,320 Speaker 1: Rain Perrywinkle's emergency call was delayed by police officers. They 284 00:20:13,359 --> 00:20:17,160 Speaker 1: were saying they were suggesting maybe the mom was confused, 285 00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:20,040 Speaker 1: maybe the child was in this. I don't know what happened, 286 00:20:20,280 --> 00:20:24,160 Speaker 1: but their response was delayed. After that, there was a 287 00:20:24,200 --> 00:20:29,879 Speaker 1: seven week internal investigation that revealed the Jackson sheriff's office 288 00:20:30,359 --> 00:20:34,600 Speaker 1: doubted the mom's story because she Mark was in the 289 00:20:34,600 --> 00:20:38,560 Speaker 1: middle of a custody battle over the kids, so they 290 00:20:38,840 --> 00:20:43,520 Speaker 1: just assumed, hey, she's making this up, and there was 291 00:20:43,560 --> 00:20:48,439 Speaker 1: a delay in getting and saving Cherish Perrywinkle, Mark, did 292 00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:51,320 Speaker 1: you know that part? Well, I didn't know that part. 293 00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:56,639 Speaker 1: I'll tell you the irony is abound heavily in this case. 294 00:20:56,720 --> 00:20:59,840 Speaker 1: I mean, she was taken out of a Walmart, which 295 00:20:59,880 --> 00:21:04,320 Speaker 1: is where the whole Code Adam program was born, and 296 00:21:04,359 --> 00:21:07,160 Speaker 1: that in fact, is a lockdown of the store once 297 00:21:07,160 --> 00:21:10,119 Speaker 1: a child is discovered to have been missing. So the 298 00:21:10,160 --> 00:21:12,919 Speaker 1: first thing that should have been available to law enforcements 299 00:21:12,960 --> 00:21:16,159 Speaker 1: when they finally did arrive at that scene should have 300 00:21:16,240 --> 00:21:19,240 Speaker 1: been the surveillance video. They should have easily been able 301 00:21:19,320 --> 00:21:22,399 Speaker 1: to look at that surveillance video see this man walking 302 00:21:22,440 --> 00:21:26,159 Speaker 1: out with this little girl, and then take the appropriate action, 303 00:21:26,280 --> 00:21:29,879 Speaker 1: which obviously in this case would have been to to 304 00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:34,040 Speaker 1: ask for an amber alert to be activated. And they 305 00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:37,239 Speaker 1: failed to do any of those things. Mark class, I 306 00:21:37,280 --> 00:21:39,520 Speaker 1: know you know all this like the back of your hand, 307 00:21:39,640 --> 00:21:43,760 Speaker 1: but our listeners may not. Could you explain the genesis 308 00:21:43,800 --> 00:21:47,320 Speaker 1: of Code Adam, Well, the genesis of Code Adam was 309 00:21:47,520 --> 00:21:51,159 Speaker 1: the disappearance of Adam Walsh back in I believe the 310 00:21:51,280 --> 00:21:55,880 Speaker 1: very early eighties or perhaps the mid eighties in Hollywood, Florida. 311 00:21:55,920 --> 00:21:59,200 Speaker 1: He was with his mother at a Shears store and 312 00:21:59,280 --> 00:22:02,040 Speaker 1: she left him loan in a nisle so that he 313 00:22:02,040 --> 00:22:04,040 Speaker 1: could play with some toys while she did some more 314 00:22:04,080 --> 00:22:07,360 Speaker 1: serious shopping. And when she came back a very few 315 00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:11,000 Speaker 1: minutes later to find him, he was absolutely missing, and 316 00:22:11,040 --> 00:22:16,200 Speaker 1: that ultimately led to well they found, They found Adam. 317 00:22:16,240 --> 00:22:18,919 Speaker 1: They were never able to get a successful conviction on 318 00:22:18,960 --> 00:22:22,880 Speaker 1: who had committed that crime against Adam, but ultimately launched 319 00:22:22,880 --> 00:22:26,880 Speaker 1: his father, John's UM career is one of the great 320 00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:30,080 Speaker 1: crime fighters of the last half of the twentieth century. 321 00:22:30,320 --> 00:22:35,639 Speaker 1: UM and then Code Adam then became a It became 322 00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:40,119 Speaker 1: a template to respond and react when child a child 323 00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:44,600 Speaker 1: goes missing, things like closing the store down, putting employees 324 00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:49,640 Speaker 1: on an extra alert, and immediately notifying law enforcement so 325 00:22:49,720 --> 00:22:53,560 Speaker 1: that they can have a timely response. Mark speaking about 326 00:22:53,560 --> 00:22:57,400 Speaker 1: being lulled into everyone with me as Mark class tireless 327 00:22:57,560 --> 00:23:01,360 Speaker 1: victims rights advocate A and knowing what I know, there 328 00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:04,439 Speaker 1: have been times, now the twins are now nine, that 329 00:23:04,600 --> 00:23:07,399 Speaker 1: I would let them be together on one row, and 330 00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:10,360 Speaker 1: I go to the next row, and I time myself 331 00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:13,240 Speaker 1: as to be to only be gone for three minutes. 332 00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:16,399 Speaker 1: But the truth is, really they can be gone in 333 00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:21,159 Speaker 1: three minutes. They can be gone in three minutes, but 334 00:23:22,119 --> 00:23:25,479 Speaker 1: they're together, Nancy. And it's much more difficult to control 335 00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:28,800 Speaker 1: two children, especially to two children who I'm sure are 336 00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:34,320 Speaker 1: is aware is your children of the responses of of strangers, 337 00:23:34,359 --> 00:23:37,360 Speaker 1: individuals they don't know, etcetera. It would be very, very 338 00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:41,320 Speaker 1: difficult for them to bamboozle those kids and get them outside. 339 00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:45,199 Speaker 1: The great danger is when one child is by themselves 340 00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:48,879 Speaker 1: and really has no other resources than their own young mind. 341 00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:51,880 Speaker 1: You know, I'm looking right now as we're talking, Mark, 342 00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:56,560 Speaker 1: I'm looking at this guy walking out the door of 343 00:23:56,600 --> 00:24:01,080 Speaker 1: the Walmart superstore with the little girl beside him, with 344 00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:05,400 Speaker 1: her beside him, and again everybody's attacked the mom. Yeah, 345 00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:08,720 Speaker 1: the mom made mistakes, but the mom isn't the killer here. Yes, 346 00:24:08,760 --> 00:24:12,119 Speaker 1: the mom made mistakes, but she's not the killer. She 347 00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:15,760 Speaker 1: described that he kept they were looking for clothes, and 348 00:24:15,800 --> 00:24:17,879 Speaker 1: he kept wanting to get the little girls still like 349 00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:21,399 Speaker 1: high heels, and she would say no, no, that that 350 00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:25,240 Speaker 1: wouldn't be right. And I've reviewed the video over and 351 00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:28,080 Speaker 1: over and over Mark, and so there's the two other 352 00:24:28,119 --> 00:24:31,399 Speaker 1: little girls and the mother, but even when they're all together, 353 00:24:31,440 --> 00:24:33,760 Speaker 1: it's like he gets her off to the side. His 354 00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:37,560 Speaker 1: focus is all on this one eight year old girl. 355 00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:41,520 Speaker 1: It is very obvious. Then the surveillance video switches and 356 00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:45,600 Speaker 1: you can see them walking to his vehicle in the 357 00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:49,760 Speaker 1: parking lot. It's all on video. One has to wonder 358 00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:53,640 Speaker 1: how law enforcement misconstrues that into some kind of a 359 00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:58,080 Speaker 1: performance um to gain an advantage in a custody battle. 360 00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:00,800 Speaker 1: It doesn't even make sense. It's seems to me that 361 00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:04,879 Speaker 1: you get into that situation, you see that video, and 362 00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:07,960 Speaker 1: the first thing you do is you respond accordingly. You 363 00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:11,080 Speaker 1: don't start looking for background information and things to make 364 00:25:11,119 --> 00:25:14,520 Speaker 1: it not be what it appears to be. There are 365 00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:18,240 Speaker 1: so many inherent problems as it goes with the Amber alert, 366 00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:23,480 Speaker 1: and if law enforcement doesn't do their due diligence, doesn't 367 00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:28,400 Speaker 1: do their duty immediately and respond immediately, then the chances 368 00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:33,840 Speaker 1: of recovering a child um diminish tremendously. What are the 369 00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:38,600 Speaker 1: stats on that Mark if it if it's been ten hours, 370 00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:42,959 Speaker 1: twenty four hours, what are the stats on the likelihood 371 00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:47,240 Speaker 1: of recovering the child alive. Well, here, here's the problem. 372 00:25:47,359 --> 00:25:51,600 Speaker 1: In a nutshell, of children that are murdered as a 373 00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:57,720 Speaker 1: result of abduction will be dead within the first three hours. 374 00:25:58,280 --> 00:26:01,840 Speaker 1: I think will be d within the first twenty four hours. 375 00:26:01,840 --> 00:26:04,520 Speaker 1: But it's the three hours that are critical. And the 376 00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:07,920 Speaker 1: reason that's so critical is because in order to activate 377 00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:10,560 Speaker 1: an AMBER alert in any state in the United States, 378 00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:15,920 Speaker 1: the jurisdictional agency really has no authority whatsoever. They can 379 00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:19,240 Speaker 1: make a recommendation and then send that up the ladder 380 00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:22,920 Speaker 1: to the amber alert coordinator for the state, who has 381 00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:26,199 Speaker 1: to be located, has to be notified and has to 382 00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:29,080 Speaker 1: be brought up to speed on the case before any 383 00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:31,520 Speaker 1: kind of a determination is going to be made whether 384 00:26:31,560 --> 00:26:34,480 Speaker 1: an AMBER alert should be issued or not, and all 385 00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:39,680 Speaker 1: of that takes up huge chunks of time. So unfortunately, 386 00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:42,919 Speaker 1: it's a situation where if an AMBER alert is going 387 00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:45,480 Speaker 1: to be activated anywhere in this country, it's going to 388 00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:49,760 Speaker 1: be somewhere between four to five hours before the alert 389 00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:52,399 Speaker 1: is activated, which means that the children that need the 390 00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:57,960 Speaker 1: amber most children like Adam, children like PAULI, are not 391 00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:00,280 Speaker 1: going to be able to take advantage of it. They're 392 00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:02,199 Speaker 1: not going to be able to be saved by the 393 00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:05,199 Speaker 1: Amber alert. The children that are most likely to be 394 00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:08,720 Speaker 1: saved by the Amber alert are children that are engaged 395 00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:14,000 Speaker 1: in custodial battles, um children that have acrimonious parents that 396 00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:17,119 Speaker 1: are trying to you know, one's doing one thing, one's 397 00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:20,800 Speaker 1: doing other things, very things I think were using Mrs 398 00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:26,359 Speaker 1: Periwinkle of doing. But the reality is is that those 399 00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:29,240 Speaker 1: kids aren't going to be harmed anyway. So what they've 400 00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:34,160 Speaker 1: done is they've created a program that that originally had 401 00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:38,679 Speaker 1: great intention of benefiting kids like Pauli and kids like 402 00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:43,000 Speaker 1: Adam that get no benefit from them whatsoever, but they 403 00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:48,520 Speaker 1: become a great pr device for Amber alert coordinators who 404 00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:52,080 Speaker 1: can say, well, you know, we we we we had 405 00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:56,000 Speaker 1: any success rate because they had all the information that 406 00:27:56,080 --> 00:27:58,600 Speaker 1: they need. One of the one of the conditions you 407 00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:01,200 Speaker 1: need to meet for an Amber alert is you need 408 00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:05,840 Speaker 1: to have a vehicle description and or a license plate number. Well, 409 00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:09,080 Speaker 1: predators don't generally do that. In this case, they did 410 00:28:09,080 --> 00:28:12,200 Speaker 1: have this description, but generally they don't. You know that, 411 00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:16,160 Speaker 1: it's so many people failed. This eight year old little 412 00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:18,800 Speaker 1: girl And when I say eight year old little girl, 413 00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:21,920 Speaker 1: I think of Lucy who's just turned nine, my little girl. 414 00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:28,479 Speaker 1: Because the response to the mom's devastating one call was 415 00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:33,560 Speaker 1: delayed by police officers who didn't believe her. They thought 416 00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:36,720 Speaker 1: she was lying because she was in the middle of 417 00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:42,040 Speaker 1: a custody battle fighting to keep her children. Then the 418 00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:47,400 Speaker 1: media we're not notified of the Amber alert for hours. 419 00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:54,000 Speaker 1: Hours after the little girl disappeared. More officers were disciplined 420 00:28:54,120 --> 00:28:58,240 Speaker 1: over that. UM, I don't know what the failure was. There. 421 00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:04,360 Speaker 1: The v cole that he had I believe had been 422 00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:09,400 Speaker 1: used in other crimes. Listen to this. The same guy 423 00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:14,280 Speaker 1: had been released from jail less than one month before, 424 00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:18,760 Speaker 1: where he served only four hundred and thirty eight days 425 00:29:18,880 --> 00:29:25,040 Speaker 1: on felony child abuse and impersonation of an officer. He 426 00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:29,200 Speaker 1: had been out a little over four hundred days. He 427 00:29:29,280 --> 00:29:34,480 Speaker 1: has been a registered sex offender since nineteen ninety three 428 00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:39,160 Speaker 1: for trying to kidnap a little girl. I mean is 429 00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:42,040 Speaker 1: is arrest go back as far as nineteen seventy seven, 430 00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:47,400 Speaker 1: where he was convicted of indecent assault on a little 431 00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:53,240 Speaker 1: girl under sixteen. That was nineteen seventy seven, and it 432 00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:56,520 Speaker 1: goes on and on. He went to prison again in 433 00:29:56,680 --> 00:30:00,760 Speaker 1: ninety two for attempted kidnapping. He was evicted on that 434 00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:05,040 Speaker 1: charge in addition to two counts of showing obscene material 435 00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:07,800 Speaker 1: to a child. I mean, it just goes on and on, 436 00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:11,760 Speaker 1: and here he is wandering around Walmart. I don't get it. 437 00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:15,200 Speaker 1: I don't get it. And what this child lived through 438 00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:20,040 Speaker 1: before she was murdered is awful. There are blood stains 439 00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:24,480 Speaker 1: on the carpet of his car, of his white van. 440 00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:28,840 Speaker 1: And you know what, there's no telling how many children 441 00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:33,200 Speaker 1: he has raped and molested that we don't even know about. Mark, 442 00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:36,560 Speaker 1: There's no telling how many children really out there that 443 00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:38,680 Speaker 1: may be dead. Do you think this is the first 444 00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:41,560 Speaker 1: child he killed. I know it wasn't the first child 445 00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:46,320 Speaker 1: he raped. That's very telling because what happens with these 446 00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:49,720 Speaker 1: characters is that the nature of the crimes tend to escalate. 447 00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:51,760 Speaker 1: And we're talking about a guy that had a forty 448 00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:55,760 Speaker 1: year history of escalating crime, criminal activity, and they learn 449 00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:58,720 Speaker 1: at a certain point, Nancy, that you don't leave the 450 00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:02,480 Speaker 1: evidence behind, that you don't leave the child alive so 451 00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:05,480 Speaker 1: that the child can ultimately point you out or testify 452 00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:08,360 Speaker 1: against you. That if you want to stay out of prison, 453 00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:11,200 Speaker 1: the way you stay out of prison is you become 454 00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:14,800 Speaker 1: a stealth predator. You take the children, You take the 455 00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:19,440 Speaker 1: children uh under the veil of darkness, and you get 456 00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:23,760 Speaker 1: rid of them. So you're exactly right. How many victims 457 00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:26,080 Speaker 1: were there? Victims that will never be able to tell 458 00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:28,959 Speaker 1: their story, that you'll never be able to tell their story, 459 00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:32,120 Speaker 1: Kids that are missing and will continue to be missing, 460 00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:35,520 Speaker 1: probably forever and ever. This is what I know about 461 00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:42,120 Speaker 1: Cherish Periwinkle because I have reviewed the documents and much 462 00:31:42,280 --> 00:31:44,240 Speaker 1: of the evidence in our case. Although it has not 463 00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:50,640 Speaker 1: gone to trial again, Cherish Periwincoln's and murtyr is nauseating. 464 00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:55,600 Speaker 1: There are over a hundred ninety pages of documents, nearly 465 00:31:55,600 --> 00:32:02,760 Speaker 1: a thousand photos, and discovery. Right now we know that, specifically, 466 00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:07,200 Speaker 1: this eight year old little girl's body was found partially clothed, 467 00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:11,720 Speaker 1: submerged in about six inches of water and a tidal 468 00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:16,760 Speaker 1: creak like a ditch, hidden under a log and weighted 469 00:32:16,920 --> 00:32:23,320 Speaker 1: down by asphalt chunks, an eight year old little girl. 470 00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:30,640 Speaker 1: We learned that he was covered and scratches. We learned 471 00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:37,760 Speaker 1: that his clothes were soaking wet, and that the water 472 00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:41,520 Speaker 1: I guarantee you the water from his clothes, the sediment 473 00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:45,520 Speaker 1: in his clothes and shoes, are going to be compared 474 00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:51,800 Speaker 1: to the sediment where he allegedly dumped her body. By 475 00:32:51,840 --> 00:32:55,200 Speaker 1: putting her body in the water mark, you know, it 476 00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:58,440 Speaker 1: was in the hopes that she wouldn't be found and 477 00:32:58,520 --> 00:33:01,239 Speaker 1: that the water would wash a way evidence. There's no 478 00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:05,040 Speaker 1: doubt in my mind. What do you make of that? No, 479 00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:08,040 Speaker 1: I think you're absolutely correct. I think that his flaw 480 00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:11,280 Speaker 1: in this particular case was that he was so desperate 481 00:33:11,320 --> 00:33:14,880 Speaker 1: for a new victim that he exposed himself. And I 482 00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:17,520 Speaker 1: think that, you know, in retrospect, if you were to 483 00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:21,320 Speaker 1: look back, he probably would play this out very differently. Um, 484 00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:23,840 Speaker 1: but you know, it is what it is. This guy 485 00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:26,800 Speaker 1: has been caught, Thank goodness. He will never have an 486 00:33:26,840 --> 00:33:31,080 Speaker 1: opportunity another child. You don't think, don't you think that 487 00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:34,320 Speaker 1: after his first conviction, Hey, they put him away, he'll 488 00:33:34,360 --> 00:33:37,160 Speaker 1: never get out again. But he got out once, twice, 489 00:33:37,280 --> 00:33:41,400 Speaker 1: three times, and now Cherish is dead well as they deserve. 490 00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:44,360 Speaker 1: Ever been a better argument for the death penalty, Nannswy, 491 00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:48,880 Speaker 1: I mean, seriously, has there? Because you know, that's how 492 00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:51,760 Speaker 1: you put a stop to these guys, and unfortunately that's 493 00:33:51,840 --> 00:33:54,040 Speaker 1: the only way you put a stop to these guys. 494 00:33:54,400 --> 00:33:57,440 Speaker 1: I don't want to take you and me to a 495 00:33:57,560 --> 00:34:04,440 Speaker 1: dark place, but I'm going to This guy's body was 496 00:34:04,520 --> 00:34:09,359 Speaker 1: covered in scratches. You know what that means. As this 497 00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:13,560 Speaker 1: child was raped, as this child was murdered, she was 498 00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:20,600 Speaker 1: fighting to live and she ended up dead submerged in water. 499 00:34:22,680 --> 00:34:25,399 Speaker 1: This guy has been let out, let out, let out, 500 00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:31,080 Speaker 1: let out, And I want justice smart, and I tell you, 501 00:34:31,200 --> 00:34:33,560 Speaker 1: I just don't know how to get it in this case, 502 00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:37,440 Speaker 1: because he should never have been left out four hundred days, 503 00:34:38,640 --> 00:34:44,040 Speaker 1: four hundred days on yet another child abuse case, and 504 00:34:44,120 --> 00:34:47,040 Speaker 1: you're so sure he'll go away for good this time. Really, 505 00:34:47,640 --> 00:34:51,160 Speaker 1: I don't know. You know, that's three hundred days more 506 00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:54,200 Speaker 1: free he had than the guy that killed my daughter had. 507 00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:57,920 Speaker 1: I mean, he was out ninety days, decided he was 508 00:34:57,920 --> 00:35:01,440 Speaker 1: going to take out Falling. Don't understand it either, Nancy. 509 00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:05,400 Speaker 1: I don't understand why you get a serial predator, somebody 510 00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:08,560 Speaker 1: with the recipirous history that goes back decades and decades 511 00:35:08,600 --> 00:35:12,440 Speaker 1: and decades, that escalates all along the line, and they 512 00:35:12,480 --> 00:35:15,399 Speaker 1: continue to find reasons to allow these people back out 513 00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:21,040 Speaker 1: under the streets, knowing full well exactly happened, not point 514 00:35:21,040 --> 00:35:23,240 Speaker 1: who the victim is going to be, but knowing full 515 00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:26,200 Speaker 1: well that they're going to kill, they're going to rape, 516 00:35:26,560 --> 00:35:30,120 Speaker 1: and they'll probably do it multiple times unless they slip 517 00:35:30,200 --> 00:35:35,120 Speaker 1: up like this character did. I understand that. That's why 518 00:35:35,320 --> 00:35:39,000 Speaker 1: I that's why you have been fighting all of these years, Nancy, 519 00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:42,279 Speaker 1: to hold these people accountable for their actions. But as 520 00:35:42,360 --> 00:35:45,919 Speaker 1: much as we fight, as hard as we fight, as 521 00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:49,200 Speaker 1: real as our arguments can be, there are those out 522 00:35:49,239 --> 00:35:52,879 Speaker 1: there that feel that it's society's fault, or that dad 523 00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:55,680 Speaker 1: didn't give them enough hugs, or that there's some other 524 00:35:55,800 --> 00:36:01,000 Speaker 1: social reason that can be that can be remedied by rehabilitation, 525 00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:05,960 Speaker 1: or by counseling, or by a minimal time in prison. 526 00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:10,279 Speaker 1: But it never works. It never works, and we find 527 00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:14,440 Speaker 1: ourselves in these horrible cycles, going again and again and 528 00:36:14,480 --> 00:36:18,400 Speaker 1: again and again, and unfortunately, in my case, my little 529 00:36:18,400 --> 00:36:22,600 Speaker 1: girl was the endgame for this guy. Well, I say, 530 00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:24,759 Speaker 1: to the end game. But you know what, he's still 531 00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:29,680 Speaker 1: alive in prison. He's he's living in an environment right 532 00:36:29,719 --> 00:36:33,879 Speaker 1: now where our governor and our legislature in California are 533 00:36:33,960 --> 00:36:39,960 Speaker 1: doing everything they can to either a eliminate a death penalty, 534 00:36:40,080 --> 00:36:43,720 Speaker 1: which then I believe would ultimately make him eligible for parole, 535 00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:47,719 Speaker 1: or be find other reasons to empty out our prisons 536 00:36:48,120 --> 00:36:53,160 Speaker 1: by dumming down the criminal justice legislation that exists. So, 537 00:36:53,680 --> 00:36:55,759 Speaker 1: you know, is there an answer. I don't know if 538 00:36:55,760 --> 00:36:58,759 Speaker 1: there's an answer. Does it infuriate me as much as 539 00:36:58,760 --> 00:37:01,840 Speaker 1: it infuriates you. I don't know what we can do 540 00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:05,080 Speaker 1: except keep fighting the good fight, you know more. Another thing, 541 00:37:06,360 --> 00:37:12,680 Speaker 1: sometimes I've noticed that let me just say, normal people normal, 542 00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:16,440 Speaker 1: not you and not me. Okay, I call it crime. 543 00:37:18,080 --> 00:37:23,319 Speaker 1: Violent crime only happens to low rent people. Okay, I've 544 00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:28,319 Speaker 1: noticed it. It's anecdotal like, oh, yeah, she was in 545 00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:30,480 Speaker 1: the she was in a bad area. She shouldn't have 546 00:37:30,520 --> 00:37:33,480 Speaker 1: been there, he shouldn't have done this. Blah blah blah 547 00:37:33,520 --> 00:37:38,120 Speaker 1: blah blah. It just you know anything. And you know why, 548 00:37:38,160 --> 00:37:40,600 Speaker 1: I don't fault people for that. You know why I 549 00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:43,640 Speaker 1: think they do it. I think they do it so 550 00:37:43,719 --> 00:37:46,480 Speaker 1: in their mind they can go that's never gonna happen 551 00:37:46,480 --> 00:37:51,440 Speaker 1: to me because I don't fill in the blank. I 552 00:37:51,520 --> 00:37:55,600 Speaker 1: never would let let my kid walk to the food 553 00:37:55,680 --> 00:37:59,680 Speaker 1: stand in the Walmart. I would never do X. And 554 00:37:59,680 --> 00:38:03,239 Speaker 1: it think it makes them feel safer or better. I 555 00:38:03,520 --> 00:38:08,640 Speaker 1: don't know what, But I think you have to live 556 00:38:09,440 --> 00:38:14,680 Speaker 1: live this life and you know, walk timmans, walk Timmans 557 00:38:14,719 --> 00:38:23,000 Speaker 1: in my moccasins. I always told her not to talk 558 00:38:23,000 --> 00:38:26,080 Speaker 1: to strangers and that I would always be there protected 559 00:38:26,160 --> 00:38:29,200 Speaker 1: to protect her. And you know what, she didn't talk 560 00:38:29,239 --> 00:38:33,520 Speaker 1: to strangers. A stranger busted into her bedroom and he 561 00:38:33,600 --> 00:38:35,560 Speaker 1: took her, and you know what, I wasn't there to 562 00:38:35,600 --> 00:38:39,640 Speaker 1: protect her. So it takes more than platitudes. It takes 563 00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:43,600 Speaker 1: more than words. It takes action, and it takes commitment, 564 00:38:43,880 --> 00:38:46,319 Speaker 1: and it takes an understanding on the part of the 565 00:38:46,480 --> 00:38:50,520 Speaker 1: public in general that terrible things can happen to very 566 00:38:50,640 --> 00:38:53,560 Speaker 1: very good people, and the only way we can stop 567 00:38:53,640 --> 00:38:58,480 Speaker 1: that is to be diligent in our commitment to keeping 568 00:38:58,800 --> 00:39:07,479 Speaker 1: innocent people from those that are horrible. I am very 569 00:39:07,640 --> 00:39:10,800 Speaker 1: upset about what you're saying, and I know you're telling 570 00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:12,600 Speaker 1: the truth. I don't have any reason to doubt, yet 571 00:39:12,880 --> 00:39:16,600 Speaker 1: very upset about trying to that there is a movement 572 00:39:16,600 --> 00:39:20,440 Speaker 1: of foot to water down the law where these people 573 00:39:21,080 --> 00:39:24,920 Speaker 1: are going to be out. They're going to get out 574 00:39:25,000 --> 00:39:27,960 Speaker 1: back on the street, and there are going to be 575 00:39:28,080 --> 00:39:31,200 Speaker 1: so many innocent victims that are going to live through 576 00:39:31,280 --> 00:39:33,879 Speaker 1: what I live through every day. They're going to live 577 00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:38,279 Speaker 1: through what you live through every day. I just don't 578 00:39:38,400 --> 00:39:45,880 Speaker 1: understand why we have to repeat this. The preliminary reports, 579 00:39:45,960 --> 00:39:48,800 Speaker 1: crime reports from the FBI for the last two years 580 00:39:49,480 --> 00:39:53,200 Speaker 1: um have indicated, and they've in fact, they've proven that 581 00:39:53,680 --> 00:39:59,040 Speaker 1: both violent and non violent crime in California is escalating. 582 00:39:59,320 --> 00:40:03,520 Speaker 1: It's going up. So those victims already exist. Those people 583 00:40:03,680 --> 00:40:05,920 Speaker 1: that are walking in your shoes and that are walking 584 00:40:05,960 --> 00:40:09,120 Speaker 1: in my shoes are only now getting used to the 585 00:40:09,200 --> 00:40:12,360 Speaker 1: idea and trying to get a grip on what happened 586 00:40:12,360 --> 00:40:15,600 Speaker 1: to them. Because violent offenders are being put back on 587 00:40:15,680 --> 00:40:20,080 Speaker 1: the street, and they're committing violent offenses at an escalating rate. 588 00:40:21,160 --> 00:40:23,000 Speaker 1: I want to want to ask you one last question. 589 00:40:24,960 --> 00:40:32,080 Speaker 1: M hmm. Do you ever quote get over it? Quote? 590 00:40:32,920 --> 00:40:36,600 Speaker 1: Do you ever go a period of days where you 591 00:40:36,640 --> 00:40:41,279 Speaker 1: don't think about Polly? I mean, because I don't, And 592 00:40:41,760 --> 00:40:45,760 Speaker 1: for people that haven't lived through it, they think there's 593 00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:49,000 Speaker 1: something wrong with you. Sometimes I think is there something 594 00:40:49,080 --> 00:40:52,520 Speaker 1: wrong with me? But I keep remembering, and when I 595 00:40:52,600 --> 00:40:56,000 Speaker 1: hear cases like this, I think about it again. It's 596 00:40:56,080 --> 00:41:01,720 Speaker 1: all fresh, even this many years later. I don't get 597 00:41:01,800 --> 00:41:07,000 Speaker 1: over it, and I think about it all the time. 598 00:41:07,760 --> 00:41:12,400 Speaker 1: I mean, my my life has been surrounded by twelve 599 00:41:12,480 --> 00:41:17,800 Speaker 1: year old little girl for the last twenty five years. Wow, 600 00:41:20,840 --> 00:41:23,279 Speaker 1: But you know, I mean, I don't know, Nancy. It's 601 00:41:23,280 --> 00:41:26,359 Speaker 1: made me a better person because it's given me more 602 00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:29,320 Speaker 1: empathy than I've ever had. It's given me a greater 603 00:41:29,440 --> 00:41:31,799 Speaker 1: understanding than I've ever had. It's given me a cause, 604 00:41:31,800 --> 00:41:34,280 Speaker 1: and it's given me a commitment. But all the price 605 00:41:34,719 --> 00:41:39,360 Speaker 1: that one pays for those kinds of things, it's just unfathomable. 606 00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:43,120 Speaker 1: And sure, it hurts, will always hurt. There's always a 607 00:41:43,160 --> 00:41:48,680 Speaker 1: hole in your heart. You can kind of recover, but 608 00:41:48,800 --> 00:41:52,919 Speaker 1: you never fully recover because it's always there. The hurts, there, 609 00:41:52,960 --> 00:41:59,320 Speaker 1: the pains there there. I say this, Mark, just talking 610 00:41:59,400 --> 00:42:04,000 Speaker 1: to you, it gives me strength. It gives me strength 611 00:42:04,200 --> 00:42:08,200 Speaker 1: to do another podcast. It gives me strength to report 612 00:42:08,280 --> 00:42:13,160 Speaker 1: on another case. It gives me strength to battle another politician. 613 00:42:14,560 --> 00:42:18,040 Speaker 1: Just hearing your voice and listening to you speak gives 614 00:42:18,080 --> 00:42:20,920 Speaker 1: me strength. And I pray to God that whoever hears 615 00:42:20,960 --> 00:42:25,000 Speaker 1: you today that you empowered them the way you are 616 00:42:25,040 --> 00:42:29,600 Speaker 1: empowering me. Thank you, friend, Nancy Grace Crime Stories signing off, 617 00:42:29,880 --> 00:42:30,640 Speaker 1: goodbye friend.