1 00:00:14,916 --> 00:00:35,716 Speaker 1: Pushkin. I suddenly saw myself from outside, and I saw 2 00:00:35,756 --> 00:00:38,796 Speaker 1: myself kind of explode in this cloud of blue post 3 00:00:38,836 --> 00:00:42,116 Speaker 1: it notes, you know, like confetti, and they came down 4 00:00:42,156 --> 00:00:44,316 Speaker 1: to the ground and they kind of masked in this 5 00:00:44,476 --> 00:00:48,036 Speaker 1: pool of blue paint, and that was me. I had 6 00:00:48,076 --> 00:00:52,556 Speaker 1: complete acceptance that had I died and vanished, that was fine. 7 00:00:52,636 --> 00:00:54,636 Speaker 1: It was what was meant to be. There was a 8 00:00:54,676 --> 00:00:58,596 Speaker 1: continuing consciousness of some kind. I know, it sounds crazy 9 00:00:59,516 --> 00:01:03,836 Speaker 1: and very hard to put into words. That's renowned author 10 00:01:04,036 --> 00:01:07,676 Speaker 1: Michael Pollen. He's talking about how a guided psychedelic trip 11 00:01:07,716 --> 00:01:11,596 Speaker 1: on psilocybin molecule found in mushrooms helped him see his 12 00:01:11,676 --> 00:01:15,196 Speaker 1: mortality through an entirely new lens. This is a very 13 00:01:15,236 --> 00:01:18,756 Speaker 1: non interventionist therapy. The therapists say nothing during the experience 14 00:01:18,756 --> 00:01:20,876 Speaker 1: except would you like a glass of water or a 15 00:01:20,916 --> 00:01:24,476 Speaker 1: snack or need to go to the bathroom. It really 16 00:01:24,556 --> 00:01:27,356 Speaker 1: they let your mind go where your mind wants to go. 17 00:01:27,996 --> 00:01:34,836 Speaker 1: It is a kind of self exploration, self healing. On 18 00:01:34,916 --> 00:01:37,916 Speaker 1: today's show, we hear from Michael Pollen about how plants 19 00:01:37,956 --> 00:01:42,076 Speaker 1: have the power to change our minds. I'm Maya Shunker 20 00:01:42,236 --> 00:01:44,676 Speaker 1: and this is a slight change of Plans a show 21 00:01:44,716 --> 00:01:46,956 Speaker 1: about who we are and who we become in the 22 00:01:46,996 --> 00:02:02,476 Speaker 1: face of a big change. I'm fascinated by the kinds 23 00:02:02,516 --> 00:02:06,916 Speaker 1: of experiences that can drastically change our perspectives, and guided 24 00:02:06,956 --> 00:02:10,436 Speaker 1: psychedelic trips have the potential to do just that. While 25 00:02:10,436 --> 00:02:13,316 Speaker 1: psychedelics aren't legal in the US, they have been used 26 00:02:13,356 --> 00:02:17,636 Speaker 1: in certain clinical trials and have delivered powerful therapeutic benefits 27 00:02:17,716 --> 00:02:22,596 Speaker 1: for people struggling with things like addiction, depression, and existential distress. 28 00:02:23,476 --> 00:02:26,076 Speaker 1: So what's happening to our brains under their influence that 29 00:02:26,116 --> 00:02:30,556 Speaker 1: gives rise to these remarkable changes. Michael's written two books 30 00:02:30,556 --> 00:02:33,356 Speaker 1: that explore the answer to this question, How to Change 31 00:02:33,356 --> 00:02:36,356 Speaker 1: Your Mind and This is Your Mind on Plants. And 32 00:02:36,396 --> 00:02:40,116 Speaker 1: so today we dig into the science of psychedelics. We 33 00:02:40,156 --> 00:02:44,076 Speaker 1: started off by discussing the somewhat astonishing fact that basically 34 00:02:44,116 --> 00:02:48,236 Speaker 1: every culture in the world has discovered psychoactive plants. They 35 00:02:48,236 --> 00:02:52,076 Speaker 1: contain molecules that can alter human consciousness. We're talking about 36 00:02:52,076 --> 00:02:54,836 Speaker 1: the morphine and the opium poppy, and the caffeine and 37 00:02:54,916 --> 00:02:58,436 Speaker 1: coffee and tea. Michael says there are a few explanations 38 00:02:58,476 --> 00:03:02,076 Speaker 1: for why we're so drawn to these substances, for starters, 39 00:03:02,116 --> 00:03:05,476 Speaker 1: they can provide pain, relief and stave off boredom. But 40 00:03:05,596 --> 00:03:09,796 Speaker 1: then I think that there are more profounds to which 41 00:03:09,836 --> 00:03:12,956 Speaker 1: people have put these psychoactive plants. And I'm talking here 42 00:03:12,996 --> 00:03:15,636 Speaker 1: about the more powerful ones, the ones we call psychedelics, 43 00:03:17,156 --> 00:03:21,556 Speaker 1: and that is for access to other realms, other dimensions 44 00:03:21,556 --> 00:03:26,916 Speaker 1: of reality and afterworld and underworld, and religious visions essentially 45 00:03:27,636 --> 00:03:30,556 Speaker 1: mystical experiences that are at the heart of a great 46 00:03:30,556 --> 00:03:34,156 Speaker 1: many religions. And it may well be that it was 47 00:03:34,356 --> 00:03:38,556 Speaker 1: these psychedelic substances that opened up that way of thinking, 48 00:03:40,036 --> 00:03:44,836 Speaker 1: that gave people the visions that were interpreted in such 49 00:03:44,876 --> 00:03:47,596 Speaker 1: a way as to underwrite whole religions. And we just 50 00:03:47,636 --> 00:03:51,956 Speaker 1: think of the artists who were influenced by psychoactives, you know, 51 00:03:52,036 --> 00:03:56,516 Speaker 1: new metaphors, new insights, or scientific discoveries. I mean, there's 52 00:03:56,516 --> 00:04:00,196 Speaker 1: a great many scientific discoveries that traced to psychedelic use. 53 00:04:00,796 --> 00:04:03,036 Speaker 1: I think of it as the natural history of imagination. 54 00:04:03,596 --> 00:04:06,596 Speaker 1: But it sure is interesting to think about it is, 55 00:04:06,716 --> 00:04:11,676 Speaker 1: and I mean it is striking to me that it 56 00:04:11,756 --> 00:04:15,676 Speaker 1: just appears like normal consciousness isn't enough for us humans, right, 57 00:04:15,716 --> 00:04:19,476 Speaker 1: Like we're not sated by it. And look, there's obviously 58 00:04:19,596 --> 00:04:23,276 Speaker 1: a continuum, and I fall closer to the risk averse. 59 00:04:23,516 --> 00:04:26,996 Speaker 1: I'm more of a boring person who seems I feel 60 00:04:27,436 --> 00:04:30,596 Speaker 1: totally fulfilled by my current realm of consciousness. I know 61 00:04:30,676 --> 00:04:34,556 Speaker 1: lots of other people have a much more exploratory mindset, 62 00:04:34,596 --> 00:04:37,876 Speaker 1: but it is striking that across all cultures there is 63 00:04:37,956 --> 00:04:43,876 Speaker 1: some itch for something beyond our everyday conscious experience, and 64 00:04:43,916 --> 00:04:47,436 Speaker 1: we seek transcendence. Of course, not just through drugs. Extreme 65 00:04:47,476 --> 00:04:50,596 Speaker 1: sports and intense periods of physical activity can do it 66 00:04:50,756 --> 00:04:53,316 Speaker 1: releasing drugs in the brain. Basically, I mean, we can 67 00:04:53,396 --> 00:04:57,036 Speaker 1: drug ourselves in all sorts of ways. Fasting does it, dance, 68 00:04:57,196 --> 00:05:01,636 Speaker 1: ecstatic dance, rhythm, drumming. I think the desire for a 69 00:05:01,676 --> 00:05:05,796 Speaker 1: transcendence goes really deep, and it's interesting. I mean, do 70 00:05:05,876 --> 00:05:11,116 Speaker 1: other creatures have it? We know that some other animals 71 00:05:11,156 --> 00:05:14,036 Speaker 1: do like to change consciousness from their you know, their 72 00:05:14,676 --> 00:05:19,356 Speaker 1: elephants love alcohol apparently and apparently birds. Will you favor 73 00:05:19,436 --> 00:05:22,476 Speaker 1: cannabis seeds over all different kinds seems to addle them 74 00:05:22,476 --> 00:05:26,916 Speaker 1: a little bit. But transcendence, that idea that you know 75 00:05:26,956 --> 00:05:31,196 Speaker 1: that there is another, there is another realm of existence, 76 00:05:31,236 --> 00:05:34,236 Speaker 1: another way to be, is something that I think is 77 00:05:34,236 --> 00:05:38,156 Speaker 1: a deep human desire. Yeah, I'm wondering, Michael, if you 78 00:05:38,156 --> 00:05:41,196 Speaker 1: can give us a quick history lesson, because in recent 79 00:05:41,276 --> 00:05:44,636 Speaker 1: years there's been a huge resurgence of interest in the 80 00:05:44,636 --> 00:05:49,716 Speaker 1: therapeutic benefits of psychedelics for people with anxiety, depression, addiction, 81 00:05:50,276 --> 00:05:54,996 Speaker 1: terminal illness. What's been responsible for this shift? Well, you know, 82 00:05:55,316 --> 00:05:58,396 Speaker 1: one of the big surprises in researching psychedelics was discovering 83 00:05:58,396 --> 00:06:01,876 Speaker 1: how much research had been done during this period, from 84 00:06:01,956 --> 00:06:05,436 Speaker 1: the late forties through the mid sixties and the fifties. 85 00:06:05,796 --> 00:06:08,996 Speaker 1: It was, you know, a really vibrant field of research 86 00:06:09,196 --> 00:06:13,516 Speaker 1: with some very promising results using LSD and psilocybin to 87 00:06:13,556 --> 00:06:17,036 Speaker 1: treat alcoholism and of life anxiety, things like that. It 88 00:06:17,116 --> 00:06:21,076 Speaker 1: was completely respectable, and then the work stops in the 89 00:06:21,196 --> 00:06:25,036 Speaker 1: late sixties early seventies. There is a tremendous backlash under 90 00:06:25,076 --> 00:06:28,436 Speaker 1: President Nixon, and the culture kind of turns against them. 91 00:06:28,476 --> 00:06:32,556 Speaker 1: There's a backlash and the media, which had been incredibly 92 00:06:32,796 --> 00:06:36,676 Speaker 1: positive about psychedelics turns on a dime, and so the 93 00:06:36,756 --> 00:06:41,156 Speaker 1: research stops. The way it gets restarted is really a 94 00:06:41,236 --> 00:06:43,916 Speaker 1: function of a couple things. One is, you have a 95 00:06:43,956 --> 00:06:48,556 Speaker 1: group of psychiatrists therapists of other kinds who never lost 96 00:06:48,636 --> 00:06:52,156 Speaker 1: faith in the fact that these were powerful therapeutic agents, 97 00:06:52,436 --> 00:06:54,796 Speaker 1: and in fact, some of them were working with them underground, 98 00:06:55,116 --> 00:06:58,716 Speaker 1: and people in that world started kind of plotting the 99 00:06:58,796 --> 00:07:02,956 Speaker 1: return of psychedelics. And then in the early nineties they 100 00:07:03,036 --> 00:07:06,516 Speaker 1: kind of got a signal from the FDA. There was 101 00:07:06,596 --> 00:07:09,716 Speaker 1: a bureaucrat there in charge of drug development, and he 102 00:07:09,796 --> 00:07:13,516 Speaker 1: basically sends a signal to researchers that, look, we're going 103 00:07:13,596 --> 00:07:16,556 Speaker 1: to just treat psychedelics like any other drug. If you've 104 00:07:16,596 --> 00:07:19,236 Speaker 1: got a good experiment, if you've got a good indication, 105 00:07:19,316 --> 00:07:22,156 Speaker 1: you think it's going to be useful for We're not 106 00:07:22,196 --> 00:07:27,276 Speaker 1: going to discriminate against it. The key moment, I think, though, 107 00:07:27,356 --> 00:07:32,076 Speaker 1: comes when Bob Jesse, who is an interesting character. He's 108 00:07:32,076 --> 00:07:35,756 Speaker 1: not a doctor or a therapist. He's a computer engineer 109 00:07:35,796 --> 00:07:39,836 Speaker 1: at Oracle who had experiences with psychedelics. Dad had convinced 110 00:07:39,916 --> 00:07:44,636 Speaker 1: him of their value, and he reaches out to a 111 00:07:44,676 --> 00:07:48,436 Speaker 1: man named Roland Griffith, who is a very well respected 112 00:07:48,476 --> 00:07:52,716 Speaker 1: psychopharmacologist at Johns Hopkins, you know, the leading medical institution 113 00:07:52,756 --> 00:07:55,916 Speaker 1: in the country, and they cook up this study and 114 00:07:56,236 --> 00:07:58,756 Speaker 1: it's not a clinical study, it's not a therapeutic study 115 00:07:58,756 --> 00:08:01,756 Speaker 1: at all. It's an effort to see whether you could 116 00:08:01,876 --> 00:08:05,236 Speaker 1: induce a mystical type experience in someone with a high 117 00:08:05,316 --> 00:08:08,996 Speaker 1: dose of psilocybin. Mystical type experience is something that role 118 00:08:09,156 --> 00:08:12,276 Speaker 1: and is personally very interested in. And they do this 119 00:08:12,396 --> 00:08:16,156 Speaker 1: study that's published in two thousand and six, and it's 120 00:08:16,196 --> 00:08:18,916 Speaker 1: the craziest study. I mean, the title is something like 121 00:08:19,116 --> 00:08:23,676 Speaker 1: psilocybin can occasion mystical type experience in healthy, normal people 122 00:08:23,756 --> 00:08:26,396 Speaker 1: or something like that. And for me to see these 123 00:08:26,436 --> 00:08:30,556 Speaker 1: words mystical experience in the pages of a medical journal 124 00:08:30,796 --> 00:08:34,356 Speaker 1: was just so mind blowing. And what is the hallmark 125 00:08:34,396 --> 00:08:38,276 Speaker 1: of a mystical experience? Good question, I had no idea. 126 00:08:38,556 --> 00:08:42,916 Speaker 1: But it involves a transcendence of space and time, a 127 00:08:43,036 --> 00:08:47,716 Speaker 1: euphoric feeling or feeling of intense well being, a dissolution 128 00:08:47,756 --> 00:08:51,916 Speaker 1: of ego, followed by a sense of merging with something 129 00:08:52,036 --> 00:08:55,796 Speaker 1: larger than yourself. You feel connected to nature or other people, 130 00:08:55,916 --> 00:09:00,756 Speaker 1: or the universe of the divinity. And they found that 131 00:09:00,916 --> 00:09:03,876 Speaker 1: of the two thirds of people who had this mystical experience, 132 00:09:03,956 --> 00:09:07,316 Speaker 1: they reported enduring changes in their sense of well being 133 00:09:07,436 --> 00:09:10,436 Speaker 1: going out six weeks or eight weeks or something. And 134 00:09:10,996 --> 00:09:14,156 Speaker 1: in a follow up study they found that aspects of 135 00:09:14,196 --> 00:09:20,436 Speaker 1: their personality, specifically openness, the trait of openness increased, and 136 00:09:20,476 --> 00:09:25,036 Speaker 1: that's quite striking because in general, personality doesn't change in adults. 137 00:09:25,116 --> 00:09:29,596 Speaker 1: So this study really is the foundation on which subsequent 138 00:09:29,596 --> 00:09:33,036 Speaker 1: work has been done. And by looking at these results 139 00:09:33,036 --> 00:09:34,916 Speaker 1: that there seemed to be an improvement in well being, 140 00:09:35,756 --> 00:09:40,636 Speaker 1: the idea occurred, well, we should try this with cancer patients. 141 00:09:41,276 --> 00:09:44,076 Speaker 1: We should try this with people who have what the 142 00:09:44,116 --> 00:09:49,116 Speaker 1: psychiatrists call existential distress over their diagnosis or the proximity 143 00:09:49,116 --> 00:09:52,716 Speaker 1: of death. And that became the first clinical trial that 144 00:09:52,956 --> 00:09:55,156 Speaker 1: the people at Hopkins did, and it was duplicated at 145 00:09:55,156 --> 00:09:58,396 Speaker 1: the same time at YU. Yeah. You know what's notable 146 00:09:58,596 --> 00:10:02,116 Speaker 1: about some of these controlled studies is that participants report 147 00:10:02,636 --> 00:10:07,716 Speaker 1: that their guided experiences on psychedelics are totally singular in nature, right, 148 00:10:07,716 --> 00:10:11,396 Speaker 1: that they count among the top most meaningful experiences they've 149 00:10:11,396 --> 00:10:14,996 Speaker 1: ever had. And I'd love to dig into the neuroscience 150 00:10:15,076 --> 00:10:17,996 Speaker 1: just a bit so we can understand what is giving 151 00:10:18,116 --> 00:10:22,436 Speaker 1: rise to these exceptional subjective states. Well, the honest answer is, 152 00:10:22,436 --> 00:10:26,196 Speaker 1: we don't really know. We have some really interesting hints, 153 00:10:26,996 --> 00:10:29,396 Speaker 1: but there's a lot more work to be done. A 154 00:10:29,556 --> 00:10:33,756 Speaker 1: researcher in England named Robin Carhart Harris put people in 155 00:10:33,796 --> 00:10:38,316 Speaker 1: an fMRI machine and injected them with psilocybin in one 156 00:10:38,356 --> 00:10:43,356 Speaker 1: trial and LSD in another, and he found something very interesting. 157 00:10:44,356 --> 00:10:47,716 Speaker 1: Where he expected to see a kind of explosion of 158 00:10:47,756 --> 00:10:53,836 Speaker 1: activity mirroring the extraordinary visual effects and emotional effects, he 159 00:10:53,956 --> 00:10:56,636 Speaker 1: actually found the most notable thing was a quieting of 160 00:10:56,676 --> 00:11:00,396 Speaker 1: activity in one particular network. And this network, which I 161 00:11:00,396 --> 00:11:03,836 Speaker 1: had never heard of, is the default mode network. The 162 00:11:03,916 --> 00:11:07,316 Speaker 1: default mode network is the part of your brain that's 163 00:11:07,356 --> 00:11:10,316 Speaker 1: most active when you're not doing anything. It's where your 164 00:11:10,316 --> 00:11:12,996 Speaker 1: brain goes. It's the default and it was discovered when 165 00:11:12,996 --> 00:11:15,716 Speaker 1: they were doing fMRI tasks of other kinds and they 166 00:11:15,716 --> 00:11:18,196 Speaker 1: had to get the baseline. So they tell people don't 167 00:11:18,196 --> 00:11:20,916 Speaker 1: do anything, don't think about anything, or try not to 168 00:11:20,956 --> 00:11:23,316 Speaker 1: think about anything, just lie there, and it turns out 169 00:11:23,316 --> 00:11:25,516 Speaker 1: their brains lit up and all sorts of stuff went on, 170 00:11:25,596 --> 00:11:31,156 Speaker 1: and a lot of it involved self reflection, worry rumination, 171 00:11:31,836 --> 00:11:34,516 Speaker 1: thinking about the future, or thinking about the past. The 172 00:11:34,596 --> 00:11:38,196 Speaker 1: default mode network seems to be involved with creating this 173 00:11:38,916 --> 00:11:42,276 Speaker 1: projection or illusion that we have a self. It's involved 174 00:11:42,276 --> 00:11:44,956 Speaker 1: in time travel, the ability to think about the future 175 00:11:44,996 --> 00:11:47,516 Speaker 1: and the past, which if you think about it, you 176 00:11:47,676 --> 00:11:49,636 Speaker 1: need if you're going to have a sense of self. 177 00:11:49,716 --> 00:11:52,036 Speaker 1: Our sense of self is what's happened to us in 178 00:11:52,076 --> 00:11:54,116 Speaker 1: the past and what we hope will happen in the future, 179 00:11:54,236 --> 00:11:56,316 Speaker 1: or what we think might happen to us in the future. 180 00:11:57,236 --> 00:12:00,236 Speaker 1: It's also involved in something called theory of mind. That's 181 00:12:00,236 --> 00:12:03,396 Speaker 1: the ability to imagine the thoughts of other people, to 182 00:12:03,516 --> 00:12:07,036 Speaker 1: understand that other people have thoughts, have a subjectivity, have 183 00:12:07,076 --> 00:12:11,956 Speaker 1: an interiority. That's a big deal. And it's involved in 184 00:12:12,516 --> 00:12:16,116 Speaker 1: what's called the narrative self. That the story we tell 185 00:12:16,196 --> 00:12:19,716 Speaker 1: ourselves of who we are and how we take new 186 00:12:19,756 --> 00:12:23,756 Speaker 1: events and kind of weave them into that narrative. So 187 00:12:23,996 --> 00:12:26,316 Speaker 1: you know, to the extent the self has an address 188 00:12:26,356 --> 00:12:29,476 Speaker 1: in the brain, it appears to be in this network. 189 00:12:29,796 --> 00:12:35,356 Speaker 1: And this network gets very quiet under psychedelics and in 190 00:12:35,396 --> 00:12:40,396 Speaker 1: the minds of very experienced meditators and you know Robin. 191 00:12:40,476 --> 00:12:46,116 Speaker 1: Then you know correlated reports of ego dissolution and people 192 00:12:46,156 --> 00:12:51,196 Speaker 1: can describe that's it's quite a wild experience. You observe 193 00:12:51,276 --> 00:12:55,036 Speaker 1: your sense of self completely melting or crumbling. I had 194 00:12:55,396 --> 00:12:59,356 Speaker 1: once happened to me when people reported that they had 195 00:12:59,396 --> 00:13:03,116 Speaker 1: the most precipitous drops in activity and the default mode network. 196 00:13:03,156 --> 00:13:06,556 Speaker 1: So that's one of the findings really of psychedelic science already. 197 00:13:06,596 --> 00:13:10,756 Speaker 1: That is significant, I think for our understanding of consciousness 198 00:13:10,756 --> 00:13:13,356 Speaker 1: and the self. But it's not the only theory of 199 00:13:13,356 --> 00:13:15,476 Speaker 1: what's going on. There are people who aren't sold on 200 00:13:15,516 --> 00:13:19,596 Speaker 1: the default mode. We're hoping to get some more precise 201 00:13:19,596 --> 00:13:24,276 Speaker 1: answers to these questions. Yeah, I mean, in addition to 202 00:13:24,716 --> 00:13:28,436 Speaker 1: you some of the therapeutic effects. It is so compelling 203 00:13:28,636 --> 00:13:33,156 Speaker 1: that this basic research can help us further understand what 204 00:13:33,276 --> 00:13:36,876 Speaker 1: brain structures are associated with our sense of self. Yeah, 205 00:13:36,996 --> 00:13:42,636 Speaker 1: there's another area to investigate too, is what psychedelics might 206 00:13:42,636 --> 00:13:46,956 Speaker 1: teach us about the consciousness of children. You may know 207 00:13:46,996 --> 00:13:50,116 Speaker 1: Alison Gopnick Alison Yes yea such a fan of hers, 208 00:13:50,516 --> 00:13:55,316 Speaker 1: and she studies child consciousness and problem solving, and she's 209 00:13:55,396 --> 00:14:00,516 Speaker 1: convinced that the psychedelic experience is as close as adults 210 00:14:00,556 --> 00:14:03,236 Speaker 1: get to the mind of the child and the way 211 00:14:03,236 --> 00:14:05,596 Speaker 1: of thinking and the kind of what she describes as 212 00:14:05,596 --> 00:14:10,716 Speaker 1: the lantern consciousness, as opposed to the consciousness of adults, 213 00:14:10,756 --> 00:14:14,476 Speaker 1: which is very focused in linear children taking information from 214 00:14:14,476 --> 00:14:17,676 Speaker 1: all different sides, which allows for a different kind of creativity, 215 00:14:18,276 --> 00:14:22,516 Speaker 1: and she thinks that there's a retrogression and psychedelic consciousness 216 00:14:22,556 --> 00:14:25,996 Speaker 1: that closely resembles that of children. So that's a whole 217 00:14:25,996 --> 00:14:29,476 Speaker 1: other avenue of exploration. That's very exciting. Yeah, I love 218 00:14:29,516 --> 00:14:32,636 Speaker 1: her quote that babies and children are basically tripping all 219 00:14:32,636 --> 00:14:36,316 Speaker 1: the time. What a lovely, colorful way of saying it. 220 00:14:36,556 --> 00:14:40,436 Speaker 1: This was an insight she had when her granddaughter was born. 221 00:14:41,676 --> 00:14:45,596 Speaker 1: I love that. Yeah. You know you mentioned that you 222 00:14:45,876 --> 00:14:48,916 Speaker 1: did have the experience of feeling your ego dissolved, and 223 00:14:48,956 --> 00:14:51,196 Speaker 1: I know you did try psychedelics while you were writing 224 00:14:51,196 --> 00:14:53,916 Speaker 1: your book. You say that you felt your sense of 225 00:14:53,956 --> 00:14:57,396 Speaker 1: self scattered to the wind like a blizzard of post its. 226 00:14:58,636 --> 00:15:01,356 Speaker 1: And I'm wondering, can you just paint a scene of 227 00:15:01,396 --> 00:15:05,276 Speaker 1: the many ways in which ego dissolusion expressed itself during 228 00:15:05,316 --> 00:15:10,476 Speaker 1: your trips. It was such an interesting, strange experience. I 229 00:15:10,556 --> 00:15:13,276 Speaker 1: was really not prepared for it. So I had a 230 00:15:13,316 --> 00:15:18,196 Speaker 1: fairly high dose psilocybin experience guided by an underground guide 231 00:15:18,636 --> 00:15:21,676 Speaker 1: somebody I really trusted. And I mentioned that because if 232 00:15:21,716 --> 00:15:25,516 Speaker 1: you're going to let go to the extent of allowing 233 00:15:25,556 --> 00:15:28,556 Speaker 1: your sense of self to completely vanish, you're going to 234 00:15:28,636 --> 00:15:31,236 Speaker 1: have to feel very safe and very comfortable. And I did, 235 00:15:31,356 --> 00:15:36,076 Speaker 1: you know, under her guidance. And anyway, at a certain point, 236 00:15:36,116 --> 00:15:40,156 Speaker 1: well into the experience, she offered me what's called a 237 00:15:40,196 --> 00:15:42,716 Speaker 1: booster dose, and I figured in for a diamond for 238 00:15:42,716 --> 00:15:44,916 Speaker 1: a dollar. I was doing this for my book, actually, 239 00:15:44,996 --> 00:15:48,076 Speaker 1: and so I said sure, and I ate another research purposes, 240 00:15:48,756 --> 00:15:51,836 Speaker 1: strictly for research purposes, you know, in the interest of 241 00:15:51,836 --> 00:15:55,036 Speaker 1: my readers, because and it really was because I was 242 00:15:55,076 --> 00:15:57,236 Speaker 1: although I was very curious, I was very afraid to 243 00:15:57,276 --> 00:15:59,916 Speaker 1: do psychedelics, you know, I didn't. I didn't do this 244 00:16:00,076 --> 00:16:04,396 Speaker 1: till I was like in my late fifties, and I 245 00:16:04,396 --> 00:16:06,636 Speaker 1: had a lot of fear of what could happen. I 246 00:16:06,676 --> 00:16:09,276 Speaker 1: had read the stories of you know, bad trips, and 247 00:16:09,876 --> 00:16:12,996 Speaker 1: I didn't know what. Also, you can discover really unpleasant 248 00:16:12,996 --> 00:16:18,756 Speaker 1: things about yourself. And anyway, at this point, I suddenly 249 00:16:19,716 --> 00:16:23,796 Speaker 1: saw myself from outside, and I saw myself kind of 250 00:16:23,876 --> 00:16:26,916 Speaker 1: explode in this cloud of post it notes, blue post 251 00:16:26,956 --> 00:16:30,316 Speaker 1: it notes, you know, like confetti, and they came down 252 00:16:30,356 --> 00:16:32,556 Speaker 1: to the ground and they kind of masked in this 253 00:16:32,676 --> 00:16:35,756 Speaker 1: pool of blue paint. And that was me. And I 254 00:16:35,796 --> 00:16:38,956 Speaker 1: was absolutely sure it was me. But I was perceiving 255 00:16:38,996 --> 00:16:43,756 Speaker 1: it from this new perspective that I had never experienced before. 256 00:16:44,076 --> 00:16:46,196 Speaker 1: I don't know quite what it was. It wasn't me. 257 00:16:46,396 --> 00:16:52,036 Speaker 1: It was very equable, disinterested. It had no problem with 258 00:16:52,076 --> 00:16:55,356 Speaker 1: what had happened. I didn't feel threatened in any way, 259 00:16:55,556 --> 00:16:59,196 Speaker 1: and that was me. I was gone and that was fine, 260 00:16:59,796 --> 00:17:02,716 Speaker 1: but I was still aware. And it was the first 261 00:17:02,756 --> 00:17:05,156 Speaker 1: time it ever occurred to me that you could have 262 00:17:05,756 --> 00:17:09,916 Speaker 1: awareness without self, which is something Buddhists and Hindus will 263 00:17:09,916 --> 00:17:12,156 Speaker 1: tell you about. But you know, that seemed very far 264 00:17:12,236 --> 00:17:16,436 Speaker 1: from my experience. And then what happens when you don't 265 00:17:16,556 --> 00:17:21,836 Speaker 1: have a self is that that you merge with everything 266 00:17:21,876 --> 00:17:25,236 Speaker 1: around you. And in this case, what I merged with 267 00:17:25,836 --> 00:17:31,916 Speaker 1: was a piece of music. And she put on Bach's 268 00:17:32,036 --> 00:17:34,676 Speaker 1: Unaccompanied Cello Suite number two in D minor, which is 269 00:17:34,676 --> 00:17:37,636 Speaker 1: a very sad piece of music, so gorgeous. Yeah, and 270 00:17:37,836 --> 00:17:45,236 Speaker 1: I became one with the music. It was complete merging, 271 00:17:45,876 --> 00:17:49,156 Speaker 1: and it was incredibly beautiful. It's most profound experience of 272 00:17:49,236 --> 00:17:53,036 Speaker 1: music I'd ever had. And I felt as though the bow, 273 00:17:53,196 --> 00:17:55,876 Speaker 1: the horsehairer of the bow was going over my body. 274 00:17:55,916 --> 00:17:58,356 Speaker 1: And then at one point that I was inside the 275 00:17:59,156 --> 00:18:04,396 Speaker 1: well of this you know this wooden container and it 276 00:18:04,476 --> 00:18:07,756 Speaker 1: was so beautiful, and although it was very sad, I 277 00:18:07,756 --> 00:18:10,996 Speaker 1: wouldn't call it a happy experience. It was very sad. 278 00:18:11,036 --> 00:18:13,156 Speaker 1: It was all about death. I mean that the piece 279 00:18:13,196 --> 00:18:21,116 Speaker 1: of music. To me, it was all about death. But 280 00:18:21,236 --> 00:18:26,836 Speaker 1: I was completely I had complete acceptance that had I 281 00:18:26,956 --> 00:18:29,996 Speaker 1: died and vanished, that was fine. It was what was 282 00:18:30,036 --> 00:18:33,756 Speaker 1: meant to be something. Something followed on that death of 283 00:18:33,796 --> 00:18:37,236 Speaker 1: the self. There was a continuing consciousness of some kind. 284 00:18:37,796 --> 00:18:41,676 Speaker 1: I know it sounds crazy and very hard to put 285 00:18:41,756 --> 00:18:45,036 Speaker 1: into words. I struggled to describe it in the book, 286 00:18:45,436 --> 00:18:47,636 Speaker 1: but it was one of the most profound experiences of 287 00:18:47,636 --> 00:18:51,876 Speaker 1: my life. The struggle you're having putting your experience into 288 00:18:51,916 --> 00:18:56,676 Speaker 1: words is very characteristic of how many people feel after 289 00:18:56,716 --> 00:18:58,356 Speaker 1: a trip. Right. They're saying, this is one of the 290 00:18:58,356 --> 00:19:01,156 Speaker 1: most profound experiences of my life, and yet when they 291 00:19:01,196 --> 00:19:04,396 Speaker 1: try and express it in words, it sounds cliche new 292 00:19:04,436 --> 00:19:07,516 Speaker 1: ag you know, everything is love, that sort of thing. 293 00:19:08,156 --> 00:19:11,996 Speaker 1: It's interesting interviewing Casey Musgrave's the country music singer and 294 00:19:12,156 --> 00:19:14,356 Speaker 1: a previous episode of A Slight Change of Plans about 295 00:19:14,356 --> 00:19:17,916 Speaker 1: her psychedelic trip, and I was actually asking whether the 296 00:19:17,956 --> 00:19:21,676 Speaker 1: ability to create music in some way was an antidote 297 00:19:22,396 --> 00:19:26,196 Speaker 1: to her inability to fully express the profound insights that 298 00:19:26,236 --> 00:19:28,476 Speaker 1: she had had using the words that we have at 299 00:19:28,476 --> 00:19:32,716 Speaker 1: our disposal. Well, you know, you've just reminded me of 300 00:19:32,716 --> 00:19:35,956 Speaker 1: one of the other of the eight characteristics of mystical experience, 301 00:19:36,036 --> 00:19:40,476 Speaker 1: and that's ineffability, the fact that these are very hard 302 00:19:40,516 --> 00:19:44,396 Speaker 1: to describe because it kind of defies the language we have. 303 00:19:44,836 --> 00:19:47,916 Speaker 1: Our language wasn't built to describe these kinds of experiences. 304 00:19:48,236 --> 00:19:51,316 Speaker 1: And the other thing that you alluded to is that 305 00:19:51,356 --> 00:19:56,756 Speaker 1: there is a tremendous banality to some of the insights, 306 00:19:56,836 --> 00:20:00,076 Speaker 1: the profound insights that people have, such as love is 307 00:20:00,116 --> 00:20:03,636 Speaker 1: the most important principle in the universe. You know, that 308 00:20:03,756 --> 00:20:06,516 Speaker 1: is banal, but it's also profound. And one of the 309 00:20:06,516 --> 00:20:08,756 Speaker 1: things you come out of the experience realizing is that 310 00:20:08,796 --> 00:20:12,836 Speaker 1: it's a very fine line between binality and profundity. And 311 00:20:12,916 --> 00:20:15,276 Speaker 1: one of the things psychedelics does is it takes all 312 00:20:15,396 --> 00:20:19,036 Speaker 1: that ironic crust we cover the world with and it 313 00:20:19,356 --> 00:20:23,916 Speaker 1: scrapes it off really effectively, and suddenly things appear with 314 00:20:24,076 --> 00:20:29,716 Speaker 1: the profundity and beauty of first sight. I mean, awe 315 00:20:29,036 --> 00:20:32,076 Speaker 1: at the at the ordinary is a really you know, 316 00:20:32,116 --> 00:20:36,036 Speaker 1: a piece of music, a flower, I mean, And that's 317 00:20:36,076 --> 00:20:38,316 Speaker 1: another way in which I think you're recovering the mind 318 00:20:38,316 --> 00:20:43,236 Speaker 1: of the child. And that's a wonderful aspect of psychedelic experience. 319 00:20:47,996 --> 00:20:49,996 Speaker 1: We'll be back in a moment with a slight change 320 00:20:49,996 --> 00:21:05,676 Speaker 1: of plants. I'm talking with Michael Pollen about how psychedelics 321 00:21:05,676 --> 00:21:08,676 Speaker 1: can change our minds. I wanted to hear more about 322 00:21:08,676 --> 00:21:12,356 Speaker 1: the therapy cutic benefits of psychedelics. Studies show that when 323 00:21:12,356 --> 00:21:15,716 Speaker 1: they're administered and guided clinical settings, they can help with 324 00:21:15,796 --> 00:21:20,916 Speaker 1: a surprisingly vast number of mental health conditions, including depression, anxiety, 325 00:21:21,156 --> 00:21:25,276 Speaker 1: obsessive compulsive disorder, and fear of death. Now, I was 326 00:21:25,316 --> 00:21:30,556 Speaker 1: initially kind of suspicious of the you know, is this 327 00:21:30,676 --> 00:21:32,836 Speaker 1: some sort of panacea. It's being used for all these 328 00:21:32,876 --> 00:21:37,556 Speaker 1: different things. And I remember interviewing Tom Insel, former a psychiatrist, 329 00:21:37,636 --> 00:21:40,556 Speaker 1: former head of the National Institute of Mental Health, and 330 00:21:40,596 --> 00:21:42,236 Speaker 1: I said, isn't this a little weird that all these 331 00:21:42,236 --> 00:21:45,916 Speaker 1: different indications are responding to the same kind of treatment, 332 00:21:45,996 --> 00:21:49,516 Speaker 1: And he said, well, you're assuming that they're all different, 333 00:21:49,556 --> 00:21:52,356 Speaker 1: you know, indications. They may be symptoms of a similar brain, 334 00:21:52,476 --> 00:21:55,156 Speaker 1: and that is that a brain that's overly rigid, and 335 00:21:55,236 --> 00:21:59,316 Speaker 1: it's thinking that's trapped in patterns of rumination. And indeed, 336 00:21:59,396 --> 00:22:06,036 Speaker 1: all those things depression, anxiety, obsession, addiction represent people stuck 337 00:22:06,116 --> 00:22:10,556 Speaker 1: in loops of destructive thought and behavior, and that what 338 00:22:10,716 --> 00:22:13,636 Speaker 1: psychedelics may do is help you break out of that. 339 00:22:13,916 --> 00:22:17,356 Speaker 1: I mean, certainly that's consonant with the use of SSRIs 340 00:22:17,396 --> 00:22:23,396 Speaker 1: selective serotonin reuptic inhibitors rights. Yeah, OCDA, anxiety, depression, etc. 341 00:22:23,836 --> 00:22:27,396 Speaker 1: So it would be very reasonable to expect that what 342 00:22:27,436 --> 00:22:30,236 Speaker 1: Tom is saying applies in this case. I'm wondering if 343 00:22:30,236 --> 00:22:33,996 Speaker 1: you can share some examples of the therapeutic benefits that 344 00:22:34,036 --> 00:22:37,596 Speaker 1: can be conferred by psychedelics, in particular people who are 345 00:22:37,756 --> 00:22:42,516 Speaker 1: facing what you've referred to as existential distress. Yeah. Well, 346 00:22:42,556 --> 00:22:45,356 Speaker 1: the first group of patients I talked to were cancer patients, 347 00:22:45,756 --> 00:22:48,476 Speaker 1: and I interviewed quite a few of them. Patrick Metas 348 00:22:48,556 --> 00:22:50,596 Speaker 1: is someone I wrote about in detail in the book. 349 00:22:50,796 --> 00:22:53,276 Speaker 1: I never met him. He had died already, but I 350 00:22:53,316 --> 00:22:55,036 Speaker 1: spent a lot of time with his wife and his 351 00:22:55,156 --> 00:22:58,116 Speaker 1: therapist and learning about his story and reading his account. 352 00:22:58,716 --> 00:23:01,276 Speaker 1: And he was a man he was about my age 353 00:23:01,276 --> 00:23:03,916 Speaker 1: at the time that and a journalist like me also 354 00:23:04,036 --> 00:23:07,756 Speaker 1: who had gotten cancer of the bile ducts, and his 355 00:23:07,796 --> 00:23:10,876 Speaker 1: wife noticed the whites of his eyes had turned very yellow, 356 00:23:11,476 --> 00:23:15,356 Speaker 1: and he was given a terminal diagnosis and struggled with 357 00:23:15,436 --> 00:23:18,236 Speaker 1: that for a long time. It was really paralyzed by it. 358 00:23:18,676 --> 00:23:21,396 Speaker 1: He read about this experiment going on at NYU. He 359 00:23:21,476 --> 00:23:25,716 Speaker 1: was in New York, and he decided to enroll in 360 00:23:25,796 --> 00:23:28,516 Speaker 1: this drug trial to see if this could help him 361 00:23:28,556 --> 00:23:32,036 Speaker 1: with his anxiety and depression. His wife actually was against 362 00:23:32,076 --> 00:23:34,916 Speaker 1: it because to her it represented giving up, but he 363 00:23:34,956 --> 00:23:37,916 Speaker 1: had no intention of doing that. He was continuing with 364 00:23:37,996 --> 00:23:41,236 Speaker 1: his at least for a while, with his chemo after 365 00:23:41,276 --> 00:23:44,596 Speaker 1: the experience, and he did it, and he had a 366 00:23:44,676 --> 00:23:47,556 Speaker 1: mystical experience. It was very profound. He described it in 367 00:23:47,596 --> 00:23:52,356 Speaker 1: great detail. He explored his body and visited his cancer. 368 00:23:52,396 --> 00:23:55,396 Speaker 1: He saw it, and at one moment he climbed a 369 00:23:55,556 --> 00:23:57,956 Speaker 1: kind of precipice in his mind and he looks out 370 00:23:58,036 --> 00:24:02,276 Speaker 1: and he sees this kind of plane of consciousness, you know, 371 00:24:02,756 --> 00:24:05,676 Speaker 1: a vista in front of him, which really he thought 372 00:24:05,876 --> 00:24:08,676 Speaker 1: was what would happen to him after he was after 373 00:24:08,716 --> 00:24:12,596 Speaker 1: he died, and he had a sense this was where 374 00:24:12,636 --> 00:24:16,516 Speaker 1: he was going. It wasn't frightening. He would be okay 375 00:24:16,556 --> 00:24:18,636 Speaker 1: to go there, but he wasn't ready. He still wanted 376 00:24:18,676 --> 00:24:20,876 Speaker 1: more time with his wife, and he kind of turned back, 377 00:24:21,756 --> 00:24:25,116 Speaker 1: and he came out of the experience a changed man, 378 00:24:25,396 --> 00:24:30,276 Speaker 1: and he had I forget how much time it was. 379 00:24:30,316 --> 00:24:35,036 Speaker 1: It was like another eleven months where he was able 380 00:24:35,036 --> 00:24:37,436 Speaker 1: to have great pleasure in life. He would spend his 381 00:24:37,556 --> 00:24:41,436 Speaker 1: days walking along the Brooklyn Pier checking out new restaurants, 382 00:24:42,076 --> 00:24:45,196 Speaker 1: had really good periods of time with his wife, and 383 00:24:45,276 --> 00:24:48,236 Speaker 1: at a certain point decided to stop his chemo, which 384 00:24:48,276 --> 00:24:51,516 Speaker 1: was really debilitating, and he wanted the clarity that would 385 00:24:51,516 --> 00:24:54,836 Speaker 1: come with just living out his last months without medicine 386 00:24:54,876 --> 00:24:59,356 Speaker 1: in his body. And he died a death of acceptance. 387 00:25:00,236 --> 00:25:04,036 Speaker 1: People I interviewed described his room at Mount Sinai as 388 00:25:04,196 --> 00:25:11,396 Speaker 1: like having this glow. He was incredibly settled and happy, 389 00:25:11,676 --> 00:25:13,956 Speaker 1: and all the staff of the hospital would want to 390 00:25:13,956 --> 00:25:17,356 Speaker 1: come by this room to get you a taste of 391 00:25:17,396 --> 00:25:23,116 Speaker 1: this man who was approaching death with such equanimity. So 392 00:25:23,196 --> 00:25:25,356 Speaker 1: it was, you know, it was incredible. And at one 393 00:25:25,356 --> 00:25:27,756 Speaker 1: point his wife sent me a photograph of him snapped 394 00:25:27,836 --> 00:25:30,436 Speaker 1: like three or four days before his death, and he 395 00:25:30,516 --> 00:25:34,716 Speaker 1: was very thin, wearing the hospital smock, and he had 396 00:25:34,756 --> 00:25:38,236 Speaker 1: an oxygen clip in his nose and he was beaming, 397 00:25:39,316 --> 00:25:43,036 Speaker 1: so that you had a profound effect on me. And 398 00:25:43,076 --> 00:25:48,356 Speaker 1: I interviewed a great many patients about their experiences, and 399 00:25:48,676 --> 00:25:50,756 Speaker 1: there were a lot of common denominators. One was a 400 00:25:50,876 --> 00:25:53,596 Speaker 1: kind of a confrontation with death and a confrontation with 401 00:25:54,036 --> 00:26:00,116 Speaker 1: one's cancer, and in most cases it made people much 402 00:26:00,156 --> 00:26:02,556 Speaker 1: more accepting of their death. So I think it has 403 00:26:02,596 --> 00:26:07,996 Speaker 1: a powerful application there for people with life changing diagnoses, 404 00:26:07,996 --> 00:26:10,236 Speaker 1: and obviously not just answer, I mean someone with an 405 00:26:10,236 --> 00:26:14,876 Speaker 1: als diagnosis or any number of other terminal diagnoses. I 406 00:26:14,956 --> 00:26:16,916 Speaker 1: was kind of sold on it for that use, and 407 00:26:16,916 --> 00:26:18,836 Speaker 1: because we have so little to offer people, you know, 408 00:26:18,876 --> 00:26:21,156 Speaker 1: we give them morphine which dulls their minds, and this 409 00:26:21,276 --> 00:26:27,156 Speaker 1: clarifies their minds, so you know, hopefully this will become common. Yeah. 410 00:26:27,196 --> 00:26:31,676 Speaker 1: You know, Patrick's story reminds me of the most stirring, 411 00:26:32,076 --> 00:26:36,436 Speaker 1: powerful part of your book, which is learning that many 412 00:26:36,476 --> 00:26:39,076 Speaker 1: people believe that the insights that they've tapped into while 413 00:26:39,076 --> 00:26:43,276 Speaker 1: they're on these psychedelic trips do represent objective truths about 414 00:26:43,276 --> 00:26:45,836 Speaker 1: the universe, right, This no edit quality, and that you 415 00:26:45,836 --> 00:26:49,076 Speaker 1: know they're not just dismissing their insights as these zany 416 00:26:49,156 --> 00:26:52,156 Speaker 1: things that they had while they were high. They see 417 00:26:52,276 --> 00:26:56,956 Speaker 1: their experiences as this kind of window into some more 418 00:26:56,996 --> 00:27:00,476 Speaker 1: accurate view of reality. You know, take Patrick who believes 419 00:27:00,476 --> 00:27:03,956 Speaker 1: that he's confronted what his afterlife will look like, and 420 00:27:04,156 --> 00:27:09,916 Speaker 1: to me, it raises some very interesting philosophical and moral questions. 421 00:27:10,596 --> 00:27:13,316 Speaker 1: I struggle with that, and I asked some of the 422 00:27:13,356 --> 00:27:17,516 Speaker 1: researchers about this, and I got a range of answers. 423 00:27:17,556 --> 00:27:19,956 Speaker 1: I mean, one is, you know, well, we don't really 424 00:27:19,996 --> 00:27:24,116 Speaker 1: know what happens after someone dies, and it's not for 425 00:27:24,196 --> 00:27:26,916 Speaker 1: us to tell our patients what happens after someone dies. 426 00:27:27,596 --> 00:27:29,396 Speaker 1: But I would say, you know, well, maybe what you're 427 00:27:29,396 --> 00:27:32,756 Speaker 1: administering is a delusion to people. And I remember one 428 00:27:32,836 --> 00:27:35,596 Speaker 1: researcher said, hey, if it works, who cares it? Took 429 00:27:35,596 --> 00:27:40,396 Speaker 1: a purely pragmatic view. That's my camp for what it's worth. Yeah. Absolutely, 430 00:27:40,676 --> 00:27:43,356 Speaker 1: as somebody studies cognitive science and believes I guess I 431 00:27:43,356 --> 00:27:45,756 Speaker 1: have a very reductionist view of life. But I am 432 00:27:45,796 --> 00:27:48,236 Speaker 1: of the mind that all we are are our subjective states, 433 00:27:48,236 --> 00:27:51,356 Speaker 1: and so in the throes of a terminal illness, if 434 00:27:51,356 --> 00:27:54,476 Speaker 1: you can be brought relief by believing the afterlife is 435 00:27:54,476 --> 00:27:58,596 Speaker 1: one thing, great, You've reduced suffering. But again, not everybody 436 00:27:58,596 --> 00:28:02,836 Speaker 1: has my exceedingly reductionist view of human existence. Yeah, and 437 00:28:02,876 --> 00:28:05,756 Speaker 1: I think it's something that needs to be explored. I mean, 438 00:28:05,796 --> 00:28:08,516 Speaker 1: I think that there are many ethical issues raised by 439 00:28:08,516 --> 00:28:13,476 Speaker 1: psychedelic But it's also important understand that it's not the 440 00:28:13,636 --> 00:28:18,276 Speaker 1: researchers that are planting this image of the afterlife, and 441 00:28:18,396 --> 00:28:21,556 Speaker 1: it's not the pill. The pill is just is a 442 00:28:21,596 --> 00:28:28,196 Speaker 1: catalyst for thoughts and fantasies and images. They're not priming 443 00:28:28,236 --> 00:28:31,916 Speaker 1: you to have an afterlife experience. They may be priming 444 00:28:31,956 --> 00:28:34,756 Speaker 1: you a little bit to have a mystical experience in 445 00:28:34,796 --> 00:28:36,756 Speaker 1: the way they prepare you. I mean that needs to 446 00:28:36,756 --> 00:28:40,716 Speaker 1: be looked at. But everything that happens on a psychedelic 447 00:28:40,796 --> 00:28:45,116 Speaker 1: experience is the product of your mind and to some extent, 448 00:28:45,196 --> 00:28:48,876 Speaker 1: your expectations and your setting. I mean we know about 449 00:28:48,876 --> 00:28:53,236 Speaker 1: set and setting. Very suggestible, yeah, very suggestible, But it's 450 00:28:53,316 --> 00:28:57,716 Speaker 1: really your creation. This isn't mind control. So if that's 451 00:28:57,716 --> 00:29:01,236 Speaker 1: where somebody's mind takes them and that's a helpful place, 452 00:29:01,436 --> 00:29:03,396 Speaker 1: it's hard to argue with that. I mean, I mean, 453 00:29:03,396 --> 00:29:05,876 Speaker 1: I tend to agree with you, but you know, I mean, 454 00:29:05,916 --> 00:29:09,036 Speaker 1: people might have ethical qualms about that. But I come 455 00:29:09,156 --> 00:29:12,436 Speaker 1: back to the fact that there's no information in the 456 00:29:12,756 --> 00:29:16,556 Speaker 1: in the molecule. Right, It's it's all what your what 457 00:29:16,676 --> 00:29:20,436 Speaker 1: your mind is creating. Yeah, maybe it's subjective states, Yeah, 458 00:29:20,516 --> 00:29:24,316 Speaker 1: it's it's about maybe maybe a reframing for skeptics or 459 00:29:24,356 --> 00:29:26,796 Speaker 1: people who might have some concerns is that it is 460 00:29:26,916 --> 00:29:30,996 Speaker 1: essentially a creative exploration into the types of things that 461 00:29:30,996 --> 00:29:35,276 Speaker 1: could reassure an individual person. Right, It's like, yeah, what 462 00:29:35,596 --> 00:29:39,516 Speaker 1: what would pacify Patrick in this very specific situation in 463 00:29:39,556 --> 00:29:43,156 Speaker 1: his mind engages with that. You know what's interesting there 464 00:29:43,276 --> 00:29:47,116 Speaker 1: is you're healing yourself, um right, I mean, and in fact, 465 00:29:47,196 --> 00:29:49,996 Speaker 1: that is a large part what happens. I mean, these 466 00:29:50,036 --> 00:29:53,116 Speaker 1: are this is a very non interventionist therapy. The therapists 467 00:29:53,156 --> 00:29:55,156 Speaker 1: say nothing during the experience except would you like a 468 00:29:55,156 --> 00:29:57,596 Speaker 1: glass of water or a snack or need to go 469 00:29:57,636 --> 00:30:01,036 Speaker 1: to the bathroom. It's it really They let your mind 470 00:30:01,116 --> 00:30:03,596 Speaker 1: go where your mind wants to go. It is a 471 00:30:03,676 --> 00:30:09,276 Speaker 1: kind of self exploration, self healing, and you know, there's 472 00:30:09,396 --> 00:30:12,036 Speaker 1: there's so much more we need to learn about it. 473 00:30:12,076 --> 00:30:14,756 Speaker 1: For scaredy cats like me Michael, who will almost certainly 474 00:30:15,116 --> 00:30:18,636 Speaker 1: never be willing to do a psychedelic trip, are there 475 00:30:18,636 --> 00:30:23,036 Speaker 1: ways of approximating the effects of psychedelics through other means, Yes, 476 00:30:23,436 --> 00:30:26,436 Speaker 1: there are. The most interesting one I came across is 477 00:30:26,476 --> 00:30:31,476 Speaker 1: something called holotropic breathwork. This was devised by Stan Groff, 478 00:30:31,556 --> 00:30:33,436 Speaker 1: who was a psychiatrist who was doing a lot of 479 00:30:33,436 --> 00:30:37,156 Speaker 1: psychedelic therapy in the sixties, and once the drugs were 480 00:30:37,196 --> 00:30:39,316 Speaker 1: made illegal, he wanted to find a legal way to 481 00:30:39,356 --> 00:30:41,876 Speaker 1: get the same results because he was getting amazing results 482 00:30:41,876 --> 00:30:46,276 Speaker 1: with his patients, and borrowing from many different traditions, including 483 00:30:46,356 --> 00:30:50,956 Speaker 1: yogic breathing techniques, he came up with this way of 484 00:30:51,556 --> 00:30:55,356 Speaker 1: inducing a trance state that is very much like psychedelics. 485 00:30:55,356 --> 00:30:58,756 Speaker 1: I did it once, and you basically have this pattern 486 00:30:58,756 --> 00:31:02,996 Speaker 1: of breathing that I think hyperventilates you. You're breathing very 487 00:31:03,036 --> 00:31:07,236 Speaker 1: fast and exhaling more than you're inhaling, and they're playing 488 00:31:07,396 --> 00:31:11,796 Speaker 1: very loud, rhythmic drum and after a certain amount of time, 489 00:31:11,836 --> 00:31:14,956 Speaker 1: a few minutes, you enter into this state where you 490 00:31:15,196 --> 00:31:18,996 Speaker 1: can do that breathing without trying to. You're on your back, 491 00:31:19,036 --> 00:31:21,676 Speaker 1: but you're dancing, You're all your limbs are moving. It's 492 00:31:21,716 --> 00:31:25,236 Speaker 1: the strangest thing that you could induce this trance and 493 00:31:25,356 --> 00:31:27,756 Speaker 1: you have the kind of imagery that you do on 494 00:31:27,996 --> 00:31:30,876 Speaker 1: psychedelic experience. And I did it, and I felt like 495 00:31:30,876 --> 00:31:32,596 Speaker 1: I'd run a marathon when it was over. It was 496 00:31:32,636 --> 00:31:37,996 Speaker 1: a very intense experience, no drugs involved whatsoever. What is 497 00:31:37,996 --> 00:31:39,836 Speaker 1: it doing in the brain. I think it may in 498 00:31:39,916 --> 00:31:42,556 Speaker 1: fact be doing the same thing to the default mode network, 499 00:31:42,596 --> 00:31:46,836 Speaker 1: because you're probably starving the brain of oxygen. But yes, 500 00:31:46,956 --> 00:31:51,476 Speaker 1: there are non pharmacological ways to get similar effects. I 501 00:31:51,516 --> 00:31:55,276 Speaker 1: do wonder whether we as humans would be more tolerant 502 00:31:55,316 --> 00:31:59,556 Speaker 1: of non pharmacological states that actually rival the psychedelic ones 503 00:31:59,876 --> 00:32:02,676 Speaker 1: if they're negative, if they're not drug induced, Like there's 504 00:32:02,716 --> 00:32:06,476 Speaker 1: somehow this bias against the drug induced bad trip. But 505 00:32:06,556 --> 00:32:09,436 Speaker 1: if I were to achieve that psychological state through natural means, somehow, 506 00:32:09,476 --> 00:32:11,636 Speaker 1: I'm more okay with the idea of if it going 507 00:32:11,676 --> 00:32:14,716 Speaker 1: sour or being scary. Yeah, well, we you know, we 508 00:32:14,756 --> 00:32:17,996 Speaker 1: have a prejudice against exogenous drugs, but there are ways 509 00:32:18,036 --> 00:32:22,476 Speaker 1: to drug yourself without them, and this is one. There 510 00:32:22,516 --> 00:32:24,916 Speaker 1: may be risks though to doing that. We haven't talked 511 00:32:24,956 --> 00:32:27,796 Speaker 1: about risk. But one of the really striking things about 512 00:32:27,876 --> 00:32:32,156 Speaker 1: the classical psychedelics like LSD and psilocybin and DMT is 513 00:32:32,196 --> 00:32:34,916 Speaker 1: that there is no lethal dose. You can't overdose on 514 00:32:34,956 --> 00:32:37,836 Speaker 1: these drugs, and you can't overdose on all sorts of 515 00:32:37,836 --> 00:32:40,956 Speaker 1: over the counter drugs. There's no risk of addiction either. 516 00:32:41,236 --> 00:32:44,396 Speaker 1: I mean, I'm not trying to sell you on anything. Worry, 517 00:32:44,476 --> 00:32:46,636 Speaker 1: you haven't sold me on anything. I'm still not going 518 00:32:46,676 --> 00:32:50,196 Speaker 1: to do it. But the risks, the risks, such as 519 00:32:50,196 --> 00:32:53,036 Speaker 1: they are, are, there are psychological risks. People do get 520 00:32:53,076 --> 00:32:57,476 Speaker 1: into psychological trouble, especially when they don't pay enough attention 521 00:32:57,516 --> 00:32:59,316 Speaker 1: to set and setting, and they don't do it with 522 00:32:59,356 --> 00:33:02,076 Speaker 1: a guide, and they don't do it in a safe environment. 523 00:33:02,676 --> 00:33:05,116 Speaker 1: It can be you know, it can be terrifying, and 524 00:33:05,516 --> 00:33:07,796 Speaker 1: so you do have to keep that in mind. But 525 00:33:08,676 --> 00:33:11,076 Speaker 1: when you know, I came to it late and I 526 00:33:11,116 --> 00:33:13,596 Speaker 1: did my due diligence. I was not a twenty year old, 527 00:33:13,756 --> 00:33:16,476 Speaker 1: you know, with no proper sense of you're in a 528 00:33:16,516 --> 00:33:18,396 Speaker 1: whole freaking book on it. No one's going to be 529 00:33:18,436 --> 00:33:20,276 Speaker 1: able to compete with you on that front in terms 530 00:33:20,276 --> 00:33:22,676 Speaker 1: of doing your due diligence. Well, but I wanted to 531 00:33:22,716 --> 00:33:24,836 Speaker 1: make sure it was safe, and I really did look 532 00:33:24,876 --> 00:33:28,156 Speaker 1: at all the research and convinced myself this wasn't a 533 00:33:28,196 --> 00:33:31,916 Speaker 1: stupid or irresponsible thing to do. There are legal risks 534 00:33:31,956 --> 00:33:34,996 Speaker 1: we should point out, unless unless you're in a drug trial, 535 00:33:35,196 --> 00:33:38,396 Speaker 1: you know, you go to a university and enter. But 536 00:33:39,156 --> 00:33:42,836 Speaker 1: aside from that, I convinced myself that the benefits would 537 00:33:42,836 --> 00:33:45,196 Speaker 1: probably outweigh the risks, and I certainly feel that way 538 00:33:45,236 --> 00:33:48,436 Speaker 1: having done it. I'd love to ask you a more 539 00:33:48,516 --> 00:33:52,636 Speaker 1: personal question about the long term impact psychedelics have had 540 00:33:52,676 --> 00:33:55,516 Speaker 1: on your own life. What are some enduring changes you've 541 00:33:55,556 --> 00:34:01,476 Speaker 1: had in your perspective or your personality ever since? You know. 542 00:34:01,556 --> 00:34:04,636 Speaker 1: I think the big thing is I acquired and it 543 00:34:04,676 --> 00:34:08,276 Speaker 1: was during that episode of ego dissolution or you know, 544 00:34:09,116 --> 00:34:12,236 Speaker 1: solution of self that I described a little more perspective 545 00:34:12,276 --> 00:34:16,076 Speaker 1: on my ego or self. I identified with it. I 546 00:34:16,156 --> 00:34:20,036 Speaker 1: thought I was that that person, that voice, and I've 547 00:34:20,076 --> 00:34:23,516 Speaker 1: come to see that it's one voice among several in 548 00:34:23,556 --> 00:34:26,116 Speaker 1: my mind, and that I don't necessarily have to listen 549 00:34:26,116 --> 00:34:28,836 Speaker 1: to it, and that sometimes I can recognize that my 550 00:34:29,716 --> 00:34:32,676 Speaker 1: ego is up to his old tricks and he's being 551 00:34:32,876 --> 00:34:37,356 Speaker 1: hypercritical or needlessly worrying, and I can kind of get 552 00:34:37,396 --> 00:34:39,716 Speaker 1: some distance on it, and I find that very useful. 553 00:34:39,916 --> 00:34:43,436 Speaker 1: It's exactly the kind of insight you might or practice, 554 00:34:43,476 --> 00:34:47,076 Speaker 1: you might get out of conventional psychotherapy, but I got 555 00:34:47,076 --> 00:34:49,396 Speaker 1: it in the course of an afternoon, you know, and 556 00:34:49,836 --> 00:34:52,556 Speaker 1: that was very useful. If you ask my wife, she 557 00:34:52,596 --> 00:34:55,076 Speaker 1: would tell you that the experiences have made me more open, 558 00:34:55,356 --> 00:34:58,596 Speaker 1: more emotionally available, things like that. I'm not sure I can, 559 00:34:58,836 --> 00:35:02,356 Speaker 1: you know, I necessarily see that, but it has opened 560 00:35:02,436 --> 00:35:07,116 Speaker 1: up this space of curiosity about myself and self exploration, 561 00:35:07,796 --> 00:35:10,156 Speaker 1: and I found it very ful. I mean, every time 562 00:35:10,196 --> 00:35:12,676 Speaker 1: I've done it, you know, I learned things about myself 563 00:35:12,716 --> 00:35:16,436 Speaker 1: I didn't know before, and that's incredibly valuable, and especially 564 00:35:16,436 --> 00:35:19,156 Speaker 1: at my age. I'm in my sixties now, and you 565 00:35:19,236 --> 00:35:22,396 Speaker 1: sort of think that that process, you know, would have 566 00:35:22,996 --> 00:35:25,596 Speaker 1: slowed or ended, but not at all. It's actually been 567 00:35:25,636 --> 00:35:29,076 Speaker 1: intensified by this. Okay, now, now you're selling me a 568 00:35:29,076 --> 00:35:31,836 Speaker 1: little bit in the last minute, Folks, he gets me 569 00:35:31,916 --> 00:35:36,476 Speaker 1: while I'm weak and vulnerable. No, this is awesome. Thank 570 00:35:36,516 --> 00:35:39,556 Speaker 1: you so much, Michael. Oh my pleasure. I really enjoyed 571 00:35:39,596 --> 00:35:40,876 Speaker 1: talking to you. I hope we can do this in 572 00:35:40,916 --> 00:36:05,316 Speaker 1: person next time. Hey, thanks for listening. Next week we'll 573 00:36:05,316 --> 00:36:08,556 Speaker 1: bring you the story of Korean American journalist un A Lee. 574 00:36:09,196 --> 00:36:11,556 Speaker 1: She was held captive for one hundred and forty days 575 00:36:11,556 --> 00:36:14,876 Speaker 1: in North Korea. Her time in captivity taught her that 576 00:36:14,996 --> 00:36:18,276 Speaker 1: sometimes finding humanity and your enemy can help you survive. 577 00:36:19,076 --> 00:36:22,796 Speaker 1: There were some moments that we could connect on a 578 00:36:22,876 --> 00:36:26,156 Speaker 1: human level, There were some commonalogies that we could understand 579 00:36:26,156 --> 00:36:31,636 Speaker 1: each other as parents and then also understanding the Korean kirture, 580 00:36:32,196 --> 00:36:35,156 Speaker 1: and there were moments that we were able to make 581 00:36:35,356 --> 00:36:50,396 Speaker 1: more talk that was really helpful during that Depenson. A 582 00:36:50,476 --> 00:36:53,636 Speaker 1: Slight Change of Plans is created, written an executive produced 583 00:36:53,676 --> 00:36:57,396 Speaker 1: by me Maya Shanker. The Slight Change family includes Tyler 584 00:36:57,476 --> 00:37:01,436 Speaker 1: Greene our senior producer, Jan Guera our senior editor, Then 585 00:37:01,516 --> 00:37:05,676 Speaker 1: Holiday our sound engineer, Emily Rostak our producer, and Neil 586 00:37:05,756 --> 00:37:09,796 Speaker 1: LeBell our executive producer. Luis Skara wrote our theme song, 587 00:37:09,956 --> 00:37:13,476 Speaker 1: and Ginger Smith helped arrange the vocals. A Slight Change 588 00:37:13,516 --> 00:37:16,436 Speaker 1: of Plans is a production of Pushkin Industries. So big 589 00:37:16,476 --> 00:37:20,676 Speaker 1: thanks to everyone there, including Malcolm Gladwell, Jacob Weisberg, Lee 590 00:37:20,716 --> 00:37:24,756 Speaker 1: Tall Mulat and Heather Fame, and of course a very 591 00:37:24,796 --> 00:37:28,236 Speaker 1: special thanks to Jimmy Lee. You can follow A Slight 592 00:37:28,316 --> 00:37:32,116 Speaker 1: Change of Plans on Instagram at doctor Maya Schunker. See 593 00:37:32,116 --> 00:37:41,476 Speaker 1: you next week. So how does this sound? I think 594 00:37:41,516 --> 00:37:46,316 Speaker 1: I'm on the proper microphone. Why are the three legs 595 00:37:46,316 --> 00:37:49,556 Speaker 1: of this microphone not the same length. We like to 596 00:37:49,556 --> 00:37:52,716 Speaker 1: introduce logic puzzles into the mic setup, Michael, So if 597 00:37:52,716 --> 00:37:54,956 Speaker 1: you could figure out the three leg problem, that's actually 598 00:37:55,036 --> 00:37:58,036 Speaker 1: part of the challenge. Oh god, this is admissions ticket 599 00:37:58,036 --> 00:37:58,636 Speaker 1: to the interview.