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Speaker 1: Hey, fellow travelers. I'm Lori Gottlieb. I'm the author of

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Speaker 1: Maybe You Should Talk to Someone, and I write the

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Speaker 1: Dear Therapist column for the Atlantic.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Guy Wench. I wrote Emotional First Aid, and

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Speaker 2: I write the Dear Guy column for Ted. And this

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Speaker 2: is Deo Therapists.

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Speaker 1: This week, a woman tries to forge a relationship with

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Speaker 1: the younger brother she wasn't very nice to when they

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Speaker 1: were children.

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Speaker 3: It's very emotional to say that, yes, I was awful

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Speaker 3: to have said that I wish you weren't born, you know,

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Speaker 3: to a little kid like that, and I have said

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Speaker 3: that I'm sorry.

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Speaker 1: Listen in and maybe learn something about yourself in the process.

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Speaker 2: Deo therapist is for informational purposes only, does not constitute

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Speaker 2: medical advice, and is not a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis,

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Speaker 2: or treatment. Always seek the advice of your physician, mental

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Speaker 2: health professional, or other qualified health providers with any questions

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Speaker 2: you may have regarding a medical condition. By submitting a letter,

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Speaker 2: you are agreeing to let iHeartMedia use it in potter

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Speaker 2: and full and we may edit it for length, end

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Speaker 2: or clarity.

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Speaker 1: Hey guy, this week, we have a letter about some

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Speaker 1: sibling stuff that's playing out in adulthood. Here's how it goes,

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Speaker 1: dear therapists. I'm a middle child and have two brothers.

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Speaker 1: My older brother John and I are less than two

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Speaker 1: years apart in age, and my younger brother, Blake is

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Speaker 1: five years younger than I am. We're all in our

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Speaker 1: mid thirties now. John and I are good friends with

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Speaker 1: similar sensibilities and interests. We always have a lot to

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Speaker 1: talk about politics, being parents, etc. Blake, for his whole

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Speaker 1: life has struggled with feeling unloved and resentful. We grew

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Speaker 1: up in a household where there was scarce parental attention,

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Speaker 1: and we had vicious sibling rivalry. We were home alone

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Speaker 1: from very young ages. Growing up, John and I could

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Speaker 1: be emotionally cruel toward Blake, leaving him to play by himself,

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Speaker 1: ignoring him, avoiding him, and so on. I cringe to

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Speaker 1: tell you that I once told him I wished he

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Speaker 1: had never been born. I didn't grow out of my

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Speaker 1: resentment toward Blake until maybe age eleven, at which point

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Speaker 1: I treated him in a less dysfunctional manner. As adults,

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Speaker 1: Blake and I have gone through phases of mutually enjoying

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Speaker 1: each other's company, then being more distant. John was pretty

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Speaker 1: indifferent toward Blake until his mid to late twenties. For

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Speaker 1: the last decade or so, John has been a much

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Speaker 1: better older brother, regularly reaching out to Blake to catch

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Speaker 1: up and spend time together. Blake still carries a lot

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Speaker 1: of pain associated with his relationship with us. Every few years,

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Speaker 1: we talked through his feelings, most recently this past Labor Day.

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Speaker 1: The gist is that he yearns for a close relationship

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Speaker 1: with us, but has a hard time because he doesn't

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Speaker 1: have a history of being in that role with us.

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Speaker 1: John and I have been ready to have a normal, loving,

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Speaker 1: happy siblinghood with Blake for a long while, but Blake

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Speaker 1: insists that we are only going through the motions if

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Speaker 1: we do reach out, ostracizing him being unworthy of trust

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Speaker 1: and otherwise still inflicting the pain he's experienced all of

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Speaker 1: his life. How do we break out of this cycle?

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Speaker 1: Thanks Danica, Well.

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Speaker 2: Danica is right, there is a real cycle there, and

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Speaker 2: I think it might be perpetuating into the present still,

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Speaker 2: because it just sounds like she and John have so

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Speaker 2: much of a closer relationship and that Blake feels it.

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Speaker 2: He felt it in childhood and he feels it still,

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Speaker 2: and they can say we want to have a loving,

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Speaker 2: happy sibling relationship, but if he feels that it's the

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Speaker 2: two of them plus him rather the three of them,

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Speaker 2: then he's still going to have those feelings. And to

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Speaker 2: the extent that those are her feelings, then he probably

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Speaker 2: is picking up something accurate.

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Speaker 1: That's right. And when she says that she wants to

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Speaker 1: have a normal, loving, happy siblinghood with Blake, I wonder

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Speaker 1: if part of the problem is that she and John

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Speaker 1: haven't really taken full responsibility for the extent of the

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Speaker 1: pain that they caused him in childhood. It's almost like

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Speaker 1: they want to create a situation that doesn't take into

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Speaker 1: account their history.

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Speaker 2: And she says they grew up in a household with

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Speaker 2: scarce parental attention, and that meant that as the youngest

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Speaker 2: for Blake, he really looked up to his siblings as

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Speaker 2: parental figures, and so that kind of rejection wasn't just

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Speaker 2: coming from siblings were older, but from parental figures in

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Speaker 2: addition to the actual rejection from the parental figures.

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Speaker 1: Who weren't around, right, I think that there's still a

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Speaker 1: lot of unresolved issues that are very painful for him,

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Speaker 1: and I want to find out how willing she and

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Speaker 1: John have been to be able to not just listen

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Speaker 1: to Blake's feelings, but be able to take responsibility and

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Speaker 1: see what they can do to affect some kind of

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Speaker 1: repair in adulthood. That doesn't take away what happened, but

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Speaker 1: that can move them forward.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 2: I think just saying now we're going to treat you

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Speaker 2: normally is not sufficient. There's a makeup to be done.

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Speaker 2: So let's talk to her. You're listening to Deotherapists from iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: We'll be back after a quick break. I'm Lori Gottlieb

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Speaker 2: and I'm Guy Wench, and this is Deotherapist.

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Speaker 1: Hi Danica, Hi Laurie, Hey Guy.

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Speaker 3: Hello, Thanks for having me on the show.

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Speaker 1: Of course, So Danica, we read your letter and you

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Speaker 1: were talking about this cycle that you seem to be

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Speaker 1: in with Blake, and I wanted to hear a little

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Speaker 1: bit more about these conversations that you've been having and

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Speaker 1: what those conversations are like when you do talk about

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Speaker 1: what happened in your childhood.

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Speaker 3: So the conversations are very emotionally laiden, just like very loaded.

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Speaker 3: It's mostly my younger brother talking through his experiences, and

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Speaker 3: my older brother and I trying to listen and trying

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Speaker 3: to figure out what it is that he needs to

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Speaker 3: hear from us to help move the situation forward.

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Speaker 2: When you say it's mostly him talking, can you tell

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Speaker 2: us who brought it up? And if it was Blake,

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Speaker 2: what does he say. I just want to hear a

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Speaker 2: little bit of the back and forth to get a

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Speaker 2: sense of how that discussion actually happens.

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Speaker 3: This most recent time, he actually told my sister in

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Speaker 3: law that he was still very troubled by the dynamics

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Speaker 3: in our family. And then she told us, so then

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Speaker 3: we knew, and then I told my mom, and she

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Speaker 3: then really just had her heart set on her kids

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Speaker 3: having another conversation to work things out. We knew we

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Speaker 3: were going to be hanging out for Labor Day, and

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Speaker 3: we just all were planning on, Okay, Labor Day is

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Speaker 3: going to be when we're going to have another conversation

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Speaker 3: to hash through everything.

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Speaker 1: Danica, you say she wanted her kids to have this conversation.

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Speaker 1: You mean your mom wanted the three of you to

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Speaker 1: have this conversation.

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Speaker 3: Yes, but it wasn't that we would only have it

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Speaker 3: because she wanted us to John, and I are always

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Speaker 3: willing to talk with Blake about any of this. In

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Speaker 3: the past we would talk, and I think that she

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Speaker 3: wasn't necessarily aware of those conversations, but this time she

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Speaker 3: wanted to be there.

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Speaker 1: I'm really interested in the fact that your mom wants

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Speaker 1: you to have these conversations. I wonder given your childhood

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Speaker 1: you describe it as being very difficult, with your parents

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Speaker 1: not really being present and leaving you kids to your

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Speaker 1: own devices. Have you and your mom, and I don't

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Speaker 1: know where your father is in this as well, had

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Speaker 1: a conversation about what happened for all of you in

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Speaker 1: your childhood.

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Speaker 3: Not really it's taken for granted in our family that

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Speaker 3: my dad would work and then come home and watch

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Speaker 3: TV didn't really help. He acknowledges that. And then my

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Speaker 3: mom would also come home around six or seven, make dinner,

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Speaker 3: and then just kind of be in the scramble at

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Speaker 3: night getting us ready in Optibet. She just knows that

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Speaker 3: she was very busy and didn't have very much attention

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Speaker 3: for us growing up. So it's known in the family.

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Speaker 1: It's known because she and your father have said, we

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Speaker 1: worked a lot, and we had to work a lot

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Speaker 1: and that's why we weren't there, or it's known because

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Speaker 1: it was obvious from what happened the former.

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Speaker 3: They know like we worked a lot, we were just

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Speaker 3: doing our best. We know that we didn't have much

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Speaker 3: time necessarily.

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Speaker 2: Could you tell us a little bit about what Blake

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Speaker 2: actually says to you in these conversations, what he voices

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Speaker 2: as his complaints or his concerns, and how you and

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Speaker 2: John respond.

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Speaker 3: I think the main thing he says is he feels

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Speaker 3: like my older brother and I wear siblings, and we

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Speaker 3: have in our heads a sense of what it means

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Speaker 3: to be a brother and a sister. For him, when

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Speaker 3: he shows up, it's just like he's there, he's not

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Speaker 3: really participating. He doesn't know how to step into the

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Speaker 3: role of being this happy, loving brother. He kind of

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Speaker 3: knows how to play act it, but it doesn't really

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Speaker 3: feel all that authentic. And he feels like my older

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Speaker 3: brother doesn't empathize with how his experience was growing up.

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Speaker 3: And then for me, he says that I'm too inconsistent

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Speaker 3: as a sister towards him.

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Speaker 2: When he voices that, how do you respond to Blake?

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Speaker 3: Blake asked us repeatedly, what does it mean to you

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Speaker 3: to be a sibling to me, like, what can he

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Speaker 3: really count on from us? So we tell him it

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Speaker 3: means that where people who share a history together, we're

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Speaker 3: there for each other. We love each other, we share

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Speaker 3: life updates, and if we need help, then we ask

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Speaker 3: each other for help and we help each other.

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Speaker 1: That might be a nice definition of siblings if you

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Speaker 1: didn't have the history that you have. But I'm interested

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Speaker 1: in what he's feeling hurt by, and he said two

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Speaker 1: specific things. He said, he feels like John doesn't empathize

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Speaker 1: with him, and he feels like you are inconsistent. Yes,

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Speaker 1: and so when he says that, how do you address

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Speaker 1: that with him? Inconsistency?

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Speaker 3: I asked him would it help if we just have

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Speaker 3: a regular time that we talk, and he said yes,

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Speaker 3: So we're going to start there. Since Labor Day, I've

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Speaker 3: been just texting him on and off. But then we're

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Speaker 3: going to just have a monthly video call. So I'm

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Speaker 3: in a just very busy part of life right now

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Speaker 3: with family and work. He is too, So I think

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Speaker 3: that's part of the inconsistency. That's the concrete thing that

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Speaker 3: I offered to see if it would help.

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Speaker 1: Is there a consistency that you have with John that

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Speaker 1: you don't have with Blake, And what does that look like.

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Speaker 3: We don't have anything scheduled, but I do definitely just

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Speaker 3: message John naturally, like it doesn't take any effort or planning,

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Speaker 3: because John and I are close. I count him as

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Speaker 3: one of my best friends and someone who is just

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Speaker 3: on the same wavelength as I am. We're really into politics,

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Speaker 3: for example, So I'll just send him a message with

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Speaker 3: whatever news is going on. So in that sense, the

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Speaker 3: consistency is there, and it's not you know, Forester plan

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Speaker 3: at all.

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Speaker 2: It sounds like that when Blake says to you you're inconsistent, Danika,

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Speaker 2: then you think he means, well, you don't call me

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Speaker 2: regularly enough, or you don't initiate contact regularly enough. It's possible.

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Speaker 2: I'm not sure what he means. And when he says

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Speaker 2: to John that he's not empathetic enough, I'm not sure

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Speaker 2: if John understands exactly what Blake means by that. So

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Speaker 2: how much do you actually ask him questions? Blake tell

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Speaker 2: us more about what consistency would look like. Blake, tell me,

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Speaker 2: this is John speaking, Blake, tell me where you feel

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Speaker 2: my lack of empathy where you feel I should have

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Speaker 2: more compassion, where you feel I should have more understanding.

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Speaker 2: How much do you ask him to really explain what

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Speaker 2: he's actually talking about in a very granular way.

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Speaker 3: I think that both John and I try to do

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Speaker 3: what you're saying, And what I recall is that it

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Speaker 3: was a lot of I don't knows from Blake, like

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Speaker 3: like we would say, well, what does family look like

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Speaker 3: for you, and it would be I don't know.

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Speaker 2: I think because what he's trying to convey to you

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Speaker 2: is a feeling, and the feeling that he has is

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Speaker 2: that I'm not part of this group. Still, I don't

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Speaker 2: feel I have the closeness with you Danika that John has.

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Speaker 2: I don't feel that I have the closeness with you

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Speaker 2: John that Danika has, And I don't know how to

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Speaker 2: feel more accepted and more that I belong within that

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Speaker 2: circle of siblings. Possibly he doesn't articulate that, but my

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Speaker 2: suspicion is that's what he's talking about. He just doesn't

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Speaker 2: feel a part.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's completely accurate.

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Speaker 1: There's a difference between a conversation that goes like Blake

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Speaker 1: saying to you, Daniku, I feel like you're inconsistent with me,

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Speaker 1: and because you want to help, you are saying, okay,

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Speaker 1: well then let's have a video call every month, versus

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Speaker 1: a conversation that goes like Danik gout, I think there's

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Speaker 1: this inconsistency that you have with me, and you are saying,

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Speaker 1: tell me more about what you mean by that, and

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Speaker 1: he might say I don't know the first few times,

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Speaker 1: but I think what he's getting at is that there's

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Speaker 1: something that hasn't been healed between the three of you,

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Speaker 1: and there's something that he's wanting and maybe he doesn't

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Speaker 1: know how to articulate it. And one of the very

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Speaker 1: first things you said when we first started talking today

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Speaker 1: was you don't know what he needs to hear from you.

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Speaker 1: And I have a feeling that one thing he hasn't

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Speaker 1: maybe heard from you is a real sense of we

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Speaker 1: were terrible to you. We take responsibility for that. What

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Speaker 1: have those conversations been like where you go back and

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Speaker 1: take full responsibility for the extent of the pain that

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Speaker 1: you caused him as a child.

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Speaker 3: I have done that, like just acknowledged how awful I

259
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Speaker 3: was to him. For me, also, it's very emotional, you know,

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Speaker 3: to say that, yes, I was awful. You were very

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Speaker 3: much on your own, as like a five or a

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Speaker 3: six year old. Yes, I did ignore you, didn't play

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Speaker 3: with you. I didn't say this in the most recent

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Speaker 3: time we talked, but to have said that I wish

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Speaker 3: you weren't born, you know, to a little kid like that,

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Speaker 3: and I have said that I'm sorry.

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Speaker 1: How does he respond to that?

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Speaker 3: I held his hands and I cried and told him

269
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Speaker 3: how what a small thing it is to just share

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Speaker 3: some blood with somebody and be siblings, but also how

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Speaker 3: big of a thing it is, and how you know

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Speaker 3: it's like important. So he cried as well. But the

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Speaker 3: conversations that I had with him afterwards, it was still

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Speaker 3: a lot of railing on his part against how he

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Speaker 3: perceives my role and what I think Guy is describing

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Speaker 3: like still making him feel like an outsider. We had,

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Speaker 3: at least on the surface, a perfectly fine relationship for

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Speaker 3: several years into adulthood, and then within the past two

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Speaker 3: years or so he kind of cut me off, and

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Speaker 3: I asked, and he said, I do still somehow reinforce

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Speaker 3: the same dynamics that have been in place our whole lives.

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Speaker 1: How does he think you reinforce those patterns from child,

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Speaker 1: even though you're trying so hard not to.

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Speaker 3: I think he does definitely pick up. I mean I

285
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Speaker 3: even told him John and I we just have a

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Speaker 3: lot in common and we just naturally gravitate towards each

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Speaker 3: other as friends, and I think it really pains him

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Speaker 3: that if we weren't siblings with him, we probably would

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Speaker 3: not be friends. If we'd all met in the work

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Speaker 3: setting or something like, John and I would probably just

291
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Speaker 3: like hang out, but Blake would not be part of

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Speaker 3: that because we're just different.

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Speaker 2: But that's the thing, he says, I feel like an outsider.

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Speaker 2: And your response is, well, you know, John and I

295
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Speaker 2: are are closer and we have more in common, so

296
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Speaker 2: that's a natural thing that we would be closer. But

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Speaker 2: that's the wound for him, well one of them, and

298
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Speaker 2: so that might be the reality, but his feeling is

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Speaker 2: probably well, there are lots of siblings that don't have

300
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Speaker 2: a ton in common, but they still have of a

301
00:18:00,880 --> 00:18:04,919
Speaker 2: really close bond, and he doesn't feel that close bond.

302
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Speaker 2: How much do you really know him as an adult?

303
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Speaker 2: How much do you talk to him about his life

304
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Speaker 2: or about other things that go on with him to

305
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Speaker 2: really get to know who this person is these days.

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Speaker 3: I would say that there was a period of time,

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Speaker 3: so he's in his early thirties, maybe early twenties to

308
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Speaker 3: later twenties, when I would just call him, we would talk.

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Speaker 3: We were both dating then, so we complain about dating together,

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Speaker 3: and we would talk about our jobs and whatever we

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Speaker 3: were stressed about. So at that point I would say

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Speaker 3: I knew his day to day pretty well. Even now,

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Speaker 3: I feel like I know him at a fundamental level,

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Speaker 3: just in terms of his personality and generally what he's

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Speaker 3: interested in, But I don't know his day to day

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Speaker 3: that well. So for the last couple years, I would

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Speaker 3: call him not that frequently, maybe like once a month

318
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Speaker 3: or once every couple of months, and he wouldn't pick up,

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Speaker 3: like you just at that point, I think was in

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Speaker 3: the mode where he felt like he wanted to distance

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Speaker 3: from me.

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Speaker 2: So it's interesting because when you described that, oh he

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Speaker 2: was dating, I was dating. We would talk about, you know,

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Speaker 2: complaints about dating, and that's just fothered for so many conversations.

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Speaker 2: But he must have felt at that point like, oh,

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Speaker 2: like we're buddies now, like you know, this is something

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Speaker 2: we have in common. We're going through it together. In

328
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Speaker 2: some kind of way. It's probably the kind of thing

329
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Speaker 2: that he was looking for in terms of feeling close

330
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Speaker 2: and that he has stuff in common with you and

331
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Speaker 2: that you're mutually interested in one another. When did that end?

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Speaker 2: When the dating kind of ended.

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Speaker 3: It wasn't like anything conscious on my end to have

334
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Speaker 3: that stop. It was just I had my first kid

335
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Speaker 3: and just got really busy. Of course, you know, he

336
00:19:53,119 --> 00:19:55,880
Speaker 3: could probably say, well, you still talk with John through

337
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Speaker 3: all of that, didn't you?

338
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Speaker 2: But even before your first kid, I'm assuming there was

339
00:20:00,280 --> 00:20:03,359
Speaker 2: a relationship that happened before that that took you out

340
00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:06,600
Speaker 2: to the dating game, So you lost that common touch point.

341
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Speaker 2: Did he into a relationship around the time or soon thereafter?

342
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Speaker 2: Is he in one now?

343
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Speaker 3: He actually broke up pretty soon after that, and then

344
00:20:14,920 --> 00:20:17,399
Speaker 3: that was a very hard breakup for him, I think.

345
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Speaker 3: So it was actually at that point where on both

346
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Speaker 3: sides we just ended up talking less.

347
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Speaker 2: After the breakup, because you would think that's when he

348
00:20:29,359 --> 00:20:30,560
Speaker 2: would need more support.

349
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Speaker 1: Were you concerned about him or did you think about

350
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Speaker 1: him as he was going through this really tough breakup?

351
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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I reached out to ask how he

352
00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:45,040
Speaker 3: was doing, probably more than once, you know, just like

353
00:20:45,280 --> 00:20:50,080
Speaker 3: checking in and I've always been interested in just knowing

354
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Speaker 3: what's going on with his dating life, so I would

355
00:20:53,560 --> 00:20:56,600
Speaker 3: just periodically call and ask him about that and how

356
00:20:56,600 --> 00:20:57,159
Speaker 3: it's going.

357
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Speaker 1: Where do you think John was all of this? You

358
00:21:00,760 --> 00:21:06,720
Speaker 1: said it wasn't until later that John changed his orientation

359
00:21:07,359 --> 00:21:11,359
Speaker 1: toward Blake. You guys were sort of talking about dating

360
00:21:11,400 --> 00:21:14,520
Speaker 1: and you were having a bit of a closer relationship.

361
00:21:14,960 --> 00:21:17,840
Speaker 1: Where was John in his relationship with Blake at that time?

362
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Speaker 3: John starting in like late twenties and so Blake was

363
00:21:23,680 --> 00:21:27,960
Speaker 3: early twenties. John would start to just reach out and

364
00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:31,359
Speaker 3: see if Blake wanted to hang out and call him periodically.

365
00:21:31,520 --> 00:21:35,480
Speaker 3: So I think John was around I live in another state,

366
00:21:35,560 --> 00:21:38,240
Speaker 3: so I don't have that closeive of you into things.

367
00:21:38,280 --> 00:21:43,160
Speaker 3: But my understanding is John would just periodically call him

368
00:21:43,320 --> 00:21:45,960
Speaker 3: and see if he was also going to be hanging

369
00:21:45,960 --> 00:21:48,440
Speaker 3: out with our parents on you know, around the holidays

370
00:21:48,520 --> 00:21:49,360
Speaker 3: and that sort of thing.

371
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Speaker 1: But do you think, for example, during the breakup, that

372
00:21:53,200 --> 00:21:55,199
Speaker 1: John was reaching out to him too, or that he

373
00:21:55,240 --> 00:21:57,440
Speaker 1: would be able to talk to his older brother about

374
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Speaker 1: what he was going through.

375
00:21:59,160 --> 00:22:03,760
Speaker 3: Not extensive, but I think some like after the breakup,

376
00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:07,119
Speaker 3: Blake actually stayed at John's house for a period of

377
00:22:08,119 --> 00:22:10,000
Speaker 3: I don't know, a week or something like that.

378
00:22:12,280 --> 00:22:14,840
Speaker 2: Is Blake in a relationship now? Has he had relationship

379
00:22:14,880 --> 00:22:15,760
Speaker 2: since that breakup?

380
00:22:16,359 --> 00:22:19,840
Speaker 3: He is in a relationship now, yes, And do you

381
00:22:20,119 --> 00:22:23,719
Speaker 3: know his partner. I've only met her once and I

382
00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:27,560
Speaker 3: think she's darling, so I really like her. I met

383
00:22:27,600 --> 00:22:29,919
Speaker 3: her over a Labor Day. They've been dating for almost

384
00:22:29,920 --> 00:22:33,840
Speaker 3: a year now. But Blake has actually said he is

385
00:22:34,280 --> 00:22:38,080
Speaker 3: really nervous about having us meet her get to know her.

386
00:22:38,240 --> 00:22:41,679
Speaker 3: He said it's because it's upon further reflection that he

387
00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:44,600
Speaker 3: realized how much of a role I play and continuing

388
00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:45,480
Speaker 3: to isolate him.

389
00:22:45,560 --> 00:22:49,840
Speaker 2: I guess I can see in your face how much

390
00:22:49,920 --> 00:22:54,480
Speaker 2: you really want things to be better between the two

391
00:22:54,480 --> 00:22:57,560
Speaker 2: of you. At least it's very clear you wrote the

392
00:22:57,640 --> 00:23:01,000
Speaker 2: letter this is what you want to figure out. What's

393
00:23:01,040 --> 00:23:05,640
Speaker 2: interesting is that he keeps saying, you know, consistent enough,

394
00:23:05,760 --> 00:23:09,280
Speaker 2: I'm worried about your influence still about making me an outsider.

395
00:23:09,440 --> 00:23:13,000
Speaker 2: I'm hesitant to introduce you to the partner. And I'm

396
00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:16,600
Speaker 2: not hearing you say to him. You know, Blake, you

397
00:23:16,760 --> 00:23:20,399
Speaker 2: keep feeling rejected by me, and I'm not sure when

398
00:23:20,400 --> 00:23:23,359
Speaker 2: that's happening or how that's happening. Could you help me understand,

399
00:23:23,920 --> 00:23:26,920
Speaker 2: because that's not my intention, and it must be happening

400
00:23:26,920 --> 00:23:29,480
Speaker 2: if you're feeling that way, But I need your help

401
00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:31,480
Speaker 2: and understanding in what way.

402
00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:34,560
Speaker 3: I haven't said those exact things to him, but I

403
00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:36,720
Speaker 3: am happy to try.

404
00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:41,680
Speaker 1: Well, there seems to be this divide that's existed since childhood,

405
00:23:42,359 --> 00:23:46,639
Speaker 1: and even though you and John have tried to become

406
00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:51,000
Speaker 1: closer and more inclusive with him, he's still feeling very

407
00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:54,840
Speaker 1: much how he felt as a child. And that makes

408
00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:58,760
Speaker 1: me wonder too a little bit about not only what

409
00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:03,119
Speaker 1: patterns are persistence so childhood, but also how have the

410
00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:07,560
Speaker 1: three of you worked through whatever you experienced in childhood

411
00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:10,760
Speaker 1: with your parents. So we talked a little bit about

412
00:24:10,840 --> 00:24:14,000
Speaker 1: how your mom and dad acknowledged that they worked a lot.

413
00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:19,040
Speaker 1: Did anybody talk about what went on with the siblings

414
00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:23,520
Speaker 1: with your parents? Are they aware of what went on

415
00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:29,959
Speaker 1: with Blake? And have you and John come to terms

416
00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:32,919
Speaker 1: in some way with what happened in childhood in a

417
00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:36,919
Speaker 1: way that maybe Blake hasn't, because it's not just a

418
00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:41,480
Speaker 1: sibling issue for Blake that he was so young that

419
00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:45,480
Speaker 1: you two were sort of like surrogate parents to him.

420
00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:48,280
Speaker 1: And so he was rejected not just by siblings, but

421
00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:51,679
Speaker 1: also by the closest thing he had to someone older

422
00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:54,200
Speaker 1: than him who could take care of him in some way.

423
00:24:55,760 --> 00:24:58,640
Speaker 1: And you two were a little bit older, and maybe

424
00:24:58,680 --> 00:25:00,960
Speaker 1: you came to whatever terms you came to with what

425
00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:03,600
Speaker 1: happened as children, and you seem to have a good

426
00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:06,280
Speaker 1: relationship at least with your mom. I'm not sure where

427
00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:09,480
Speaker 1: things are with your dad, but I don't know what

428
00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:12,600
Speaker 1: Blake has done in terms of coming to terms with that,

429
00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:15,920
Speaker 1: And do you have any understanding or knowledge from him

430
00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:19,480
Speaker 1: about where he stands now as an adult visa for

431
00:25:19,520 --> 00:25:20,240
Speaker 1: your parents.

432
00:25:20,520 --> 00:25:23,439
Speaker 3: I think he actually said for a long time he

433
00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:27,040
Speaker 3: just hated my dad, and now he doesn't hate my dad,

434
00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:31,120
Speaker 3: but just kind of an indifference, which, to be honest,

435
00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:33,720
Speaker 3: is kind of in the boat that I'm in as well.

436
00:25:34,119 --> 00:25:38,119
Speaker 3: With my mom, she's a really amazing woman in a

437
00:25:38,119 --> 00:25:41,520
Speaker 3: lot of ways, very loving, and she tried her best.

438
00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:44,800
Speaker 3: So for me, I feel like I made peace with that.

439
00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:48,120
Speaker 3: And then for him, she's the sole person who gave

440
00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:52,159
Speaker 3: him the love and nurturing that a child should receive.

441
00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:54,960
Speaker 3: So I don't think he has any kind of anger

442
00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:59,840
Speaker 3: towards her, If anything, he's very defensive on her behalf

443
00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:04,080
Speaker 3: suggest that there were certain things where she may have

444
00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:07,840
Speaker 3: fell short. He's very defensive about her.

445
00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:12,000
Speaker 1: So he feels that he was taken care of by

446
00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:12,520
Speaker 1: your mom.

447
00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:19,119
Speaker 3: I would say that he agrees that we were neglected

448
00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:21,240
Speaker 3: to some degree, but then he very quickly says, well,

449
00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:22,640
Speaker 3: that was the best that she could do.

450
00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:26,479
Speaker 1: Can you tell us a little bit more about why

451
00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:29,399
Speaker 1: there's this anger towards your dad, because so far you've

452
00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:31,400
Speaker 1: told us that they both worked a lot and weren't there.

453
00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:34,560
Speaker 1: But what was the difference between how your mom was

454
00:26:34,600 --> 00:26:36,280
Speaker 1: and how your dad was when you were growing up.

455
00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:40,280
Speaker 3: He had a very short temper. He would yell at

456
00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:43,480
Speaker 3: us when we were younger, he would hit us. He

457
00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:47,119
Speaker 3: didn't participate much in the things that you do to

458
00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:50,760
Speaker 3: raise children. He really did just work and then watch

459
00:26:50,840 --> 00:26:54,840
Speaker 3: TV a lot of the time. So I think for

460
00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:57,880
Speaker 3: me at least, and probably for my younger brother, we

461
00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:02,320
Speaker 3: just felt like he was abusive of our mom, even

462
00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:07,480
Speaker 3: not verbally or physically, but in terms of having her

463
00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:08,560
Speaker 3: be a single parent.

464
00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:14,320
Speaker 1: Are they still married, yes? Have you ever talked to

465
00:27:14,359 --> 00:27:17,760
Speaker 1: your dad about how you feel about his role in

466
00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:19,080
Speaker 1: your childhood.

467
00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:23,080
Speaker 3: Not specifically how absent he.

468
00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:29,639
Speaker 1: Was, or his anger or you know, for hitting or

469
00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:30,119
Speaker 1: any of that.

470
00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:37,120
Speaker 3: I mean, it's like known. Even my dad would see

471
00:27:37,119 --> 00:27:39,560
Speaker 3: how I am with my kids, for example, or how

472
00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:42,399
Speaker 3: my husband is with our kids and say, like, I

473
00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:45,160
Speaker 3: know I was nothing like that when you guys are

474
00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:47,800
Speaker 3: growing up, and I know I have your mom to

475
00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:51,480
Speaker 3: thank for everything for how well our family has turned

476
00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:55,600
Speaker 3: out because I was so absent, and now I'm trying

477
00:27:55,600 --> 00:27:57,359
Speaker 3: to make up for it. How I can, Like he

478
00:27:57,400 --> 00:27:58,400
Speaker 3: would say things like.

479
00:27:58,359 --> 00:28:01,160
Speaker 1: That, are letting him make up for it?

480
00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:07,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think so. I mean I love to have

481
00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:11,640
Speaker 3: my kids interact with him, and like he would come

482
00:28:11,760 --> 00:28:14,520
Speaker 3: and help me regularly with things that I have going

483
00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:17,680
Speaker 3: on in my life. I try to show him affection.

484
00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:19,679
Speaker 3: How I can back.

485
00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:22,159
Speaker 2: To Blake for a minute. What are the things about

486
00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:28,560
Speaker 2: him that you like, respect that my feel you have

487
00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:31,840
Speaker 2: commonality with. Tell me what the touch points are.

488
00:28:32,359 --> 00:28:38,400
Speaker 3: He's a very caring person. He's a school psychologist. I

489
00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:42,480
Speaker 3: think it's pretty amazing to work with the population of

490
00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:45,600
Speaker 3: kids that he works with. I think that he's a

491
00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:52,320
Speaker 3: very reliable and loyal person, and he has certain goals

492
00:28:52,360 --> 00:28:57,520
Speaker 3: that he works towards steadily, like financial goals, and health goals.

493
00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:02,960
Speaker 3: When we were relating on a pretty comfortable basis, he

494
00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:05,480
Speaker 3: was just kind of like a good person for me

495
00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:08,640
Speaker 3: to bounce my feelings or thoughts.

496
00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:13,360
Speaker 2: So it sounds like there is enough a foundation there

497
00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:18,680
Speaker 2: for a closer relationship on your end, because what comes

498
00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:21,040
Speaker 2: across in the letter, and it came across when you

499
00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:24,760
Speaker 2: talk about John, is that the connection with John is

500
00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:28,480
Speaker 2: so much deeper, so much more profound. So it's at

501
00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:32,920
Speaker 2: such a different level than the connection with Blake was

502
00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:35,560
Speaker 2: is or could be even And I'm not sure if

503
00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:38,920
Speaker 2: that's how you really feel, but that's what comes across. Yeah,

504
00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:41,160
Speaker 2: And then when you talk about Blake, and it sounds

505
00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:44,600
Speaker 2: like there actually could be a real connection at a

506
00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:48,760
Speaker 2: deeper level. So that's what I'm a little confused by.

507
00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:52,560
Speaker 1: And when I think about the kinds of things you

508
00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:56,040
Speaker 1: talk about in terms of commonality. So with John, you

509
00:29:56,160 --> 00:30:00,200
Speaker 1: love to talk about politics, which isn't deep in your

510
00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:03,080
Speaker 1: personal types of things, but it's fun. You guys love that.

511
00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:07,600
Speaker 1: With Blake, you said, well, I ran things by him,

512
00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:11,440
Speaker 1: you know, emotional things you ran by him. And maybe

513
00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:15,440
Speaker 1: because he's a school psychologist and he's very interested in

514
00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:19,440
Speaker 1: people's in your lives. He's a really good person for that,

515
00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:23,640
Speaker 1: And I have a feeling that in your family, even

516
00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:26,240
Speaker 1: though there's so much love there, you know, you've said

517
00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:29,320
Speaker 1: about a few things, it's just understood. We don't really

518
00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:32,960
Speaker 1: talk about it. It just understood in our family. But

519
00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:35,880
Speaker 1: Blake is somebody who wants to talk about certain things.

520
00:30:36,120 --> 00:30:38,920
Speaker 1: And he's also somebody who's very insightful and wise in

521
00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:43,160
Speaker 1: that way, probably because of what he's been through. And

522
00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:46,080
Speaker 1: so how nice to have a sibling that you can

523
00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:50,320
Speaker 1: bounce things off of in that way. And so when

524
00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:52,240
Speaker 1: I think about the differences between what you have in

525
00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:54,560
Speaker 1: common with John and what you have in common with Blake,

526
00:30:55,480 --> 00:30:57,120
Speaker 1: they're different kinds of things.

527
00:30:57,480 --> 00:31:02,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, with John, we just think similarly, which can be

528
00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:05,760
Speaker 3: a good or a bad thing, you know. So yes,

529
00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:10,160
Speaker 3: talking with Blake definitely would give me a different perspective

530
00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:13,160
Speaker 3: on things, and that is something that I liked about

531
00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:17,760
Speaker 3: having Blake also kind of in my corner. I think

532
00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:21,640
Speaker 3: maybe what you're saying to me is that it does

533
00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:25,840
Speaker 3: sound to you as though there's enough between me and

534
00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:30,800
Speaker 3: Blake for us to have like a satisfying close relationship

535
00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:33,959
Speaker 3: on both sides. And I would actually completely agree with

536
00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:35,800
Speaker 3: you on that there's.

537
00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:40,400
Speaker 2: A perception that you have that you and John are

538
00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:45,680
Speaker 2: a unit and Blake is your plus one in terms

539
00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:48,719
Speaker 2: of a sibling, and I think that probably you have

540
00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:51,720
Speaker 2: to challenge that perception a bit in your head because

541
00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:54,960
Speaker 2: it's not really leaving a lot of room for Blake

542
00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:58,040
Speaker 2: to rise in the hierarchy as it went to become

543
00:31:58,280 --> 00:32:01,640
Speaker 2: one of three rather than two and one.

544
00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:04,560
Speaker 1: And also it was very different to talk about something

545
00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:07,280
Speaker 1: that has to do with other people like your friends

546
00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:09,880
Speaker 1: or people at work, then what's going on between the

547
00:32:09,880 --> 00:32:13,680
Speaker 1: two of us, And I think where Blake lives is

548
00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:16,400
Speaker 1: in this place of I want to address what's gone

549
00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:19,040
Speaker 1: on and what goes on between the two of us,

550
00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:22,479
Speaker 1: and that might be the harder thing in your family

551
00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:24,760
Speaker 1: to talk about. And maybe you and John could talk

552
00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:26,200
Speaker 1: about what goes on between the two of you, but

553
00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:30,200
Speaker 1: it's not so fraught. But with Blake, there's decades of history,

554
00:32:31,360 --> 00:32:33,160
Speaker 1: and I think that that's going to need to be

555
00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:38,040
Speaker 1: addressed in a much more direct way in order for

556
00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:41,280
Speaker 1: both of you to have more trust and be able

557
00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:43,600
Speaker 1: to open up and for you to be able to

558
00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:49,320
Speaker 1: see him through new eyes, not of this sibling. That

559
00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:52,960
Speaker 1: was problematic because he was annoying to you when you

560
00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:54,920
Speaker 1: didn't have anybody to take care of you anyway, and

561
00:32:54,960 --> 00:32:56,160
Speaker 1: so you didn't want to have to take care of

562
00:32:56,200 --> 00:32:58,440
Speaker 1: a younger sibling or deal with him when it wasn't

563
00:32:58,480 --> 00:33:00,520
Speaker 1: really appropriate for you too because you were were young.

564
00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:02,920
Speaker 1: But to see him now as someone that is a

565
00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:06,360
Speaker 1: really interesting person, and we really do have lots of

566
00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:09,200
Speaker 1: things that we could talk about that would be enjoyable,

567
00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:12,680
Speaker 1: that wouldn't be forced, that would feel organic. But I

568
00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:15,000
Speaker 1: think you have to make sure that these other things

569
00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:20,920
Speaker 1: get talked about directly.

570
00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:25,600
Speaker 2: So, Donica, we think you need to have a conversation

571
00:33:25,720 --> 00:33:29,680
Speaker 2: with Blake that has several parts to it. The fast

572
00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:35,240
Speaker 2: part is to really acknowledge what happened in childhood and

573
00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:38,800
Speaker 2: to apologize for it, but in a way that actually

574
00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:43,400
Speaker 2: takes responsibility by saying something like, Blake, you know, it

575
00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:45,800
Speaker 2: was very difficult for you as a kid. Mom and

576
00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:47,600
Speaker 2: dad were out of the house most of the day.

577
00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:51,400
Speaker 2: You had two older siblings that were like parental figures,

578
00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:54,360
Speaker 2: and instead of protecting you, instead of looking out for you,

579
00:33:54,800 --> 00:33:58,120
Speaker 2: we were abusive to you. We made you feel marginalized

580
00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:02,480
Speaker 2: and bad and terror and you had no one to

581
00:34:02,520 --> 00:34:07,120
Speaker 2: protect you. There, and I can only imagine how horrible

582
00:34:07,560 --> 00:34:10,279
Speaker 2: that was for you. You're a school psychologist, You go

583
00:34:10,400 --> 00:34:12,719
Speaker 2: to school every day and you work with kids who

584
00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:15,880
Speaker 2: are being damaged emotionally. It must be a daily reminder

585
00:34:16,200 --> 00:34:19,560
Speaker 2: of what your experience was growing up with us. And

586
00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:23,040
Speaker 2: I feel so bad for that, and I really want

587
00:34:23,080 --> 00:34:27,120
Speaker 2: to apologize for it in the way that you know

588
00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:31,239
Speaker 2: that I am aware of how damaging that was for

589
00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:37,120
Speaker 2: you and how much it left scars that you're dealing

590
00:34:37,120 --> 00:34:40,080
Speaker 2: with probably today, and it certainly left them in our relationship.

591
00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:42,880
Speaker 2: And there was childhood, and then there was stuff that

592
00:34:42,920 --> 00:34:44,120
Speaker 2: happened after childhood.

593
00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:48,080
Speaker 1: And one of the things that I think is important

594
00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:52,600
Speaker 1: to happen between you is for you to acknowledge that

595
00:34:53,120 --> 00:34:57,360
Speaker 1: he isn't crazy, that what he's perceiving about feeling left

596
00:34:57,400 --> 00:35:01,200
Speaker 1: out about feeling that you and John have something that

597
00:35:01,239 --> 00:35:08,400
Speaker 1: he doesn't, that without intending to you've perpetuated that into adulthood.

598
00:35:09,400 --> 00:35:11,920
Speaker 1: And if you can acknowledge that to him and say

599
00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:15,480
Speaker 1: I know that there are ways in which I have

600
00:35:15,640 --> 00:35:21,240
Speaker 1: continued to marginalize you. And the eye is very important

601
00:35:21,280 --> 00:35:23,680
Speaker 1: here because you're not speaking for John. You're trying to

602
00:35:23,920 --> 00:35:28,320
Speaker 1: create a direct relationship with Blake, So it's not always

603
00:35:28,360 --> 00:35:32,560
Speaker 1: you and John, that it's you and Blake in this moment.

604
00:35:34,280 --> 00:35:37,080
Speaker 1: And so one of the things that you can say

605
00:35:37,239 --> 00:35:42,400
Speaker 1: is that I realize that I have perpetuated this dynamic

606
00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:47,319
Speaker 1: of you being excluded. And when I've been thinking about that,

607
00:35:47,600 --> 00:35:50,799
Speaker 1: I've been thinking about all that we do have in

608
00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:54,279
Speaker 1: common and how much I haven't communicated that to you,

609
00:35:55,200 --> 00:35:57,960
Speaker 1: and all that I admire about you. Here are the

610
00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:00,120
Speaker 1: things I admire about you, the things you mentioned to

611
00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:05,000
Speaker 1: us earlier about he's thoughtful, he's compassionate, all of the

612
00:36:05,080 --> 00:36:09,239
Speaker 1: qualities that you mentioned, And you can say to him,

613
00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:16,520
Speaker 1: I have not been proactive in trying to get to

614
00:36:16,560 --> 00:36:19,200
Speaker 1: know you as an adult, in trying to have a

615
00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:23,240
Speaker 1: closer relationship with you as an adult in this way,

616
00:36:23,560 --> 00:36:25,840
Speaker 1: and I would really like to do that. You have

617
00:36:25,960 --> 00:36:28,440
Speaker 1: this partner that I think is delightful. I don't know

618
00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:33,800
Speaker 1: if you know that, and I really want to open

619
00:36:33,920 --> 00:36:37,279
Speaker 1: up that door for us so that I can get

620
00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:39,520
Speaker 1: to know you better as an adult, And it's on me.

621
00:36:40,160 --> 00:36:42,319
Speaker 1: I need to be doing that. I want to be

622
00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:44,799
Speaker 1: doing that. I don't think you know how much I

623
00:36:44,840 --> 00:36:47,120
Speaker 1: care about your or how interested I am in you

624
00:36:47,200 --> 00:36:49,319
Speaker 1: and your life, and you.

625
00:36:49,239 --> 00:36:52,279
Speaker 2: Can even say at the end, I want to do

626
00:36:53,120 --> 00:36:56,920
Speaker 2: the work here. All I need from you is to

627
00:36:56,960 --> 00:37:00,399
Speaker 2: know that you're willing to have an open mind and

628
00:37:00,440 --> 00:37:05,040
Speaker 2: give me the chance to show you what I haven't

629
00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:08,239
Speaker 2: been able to show you all these years. And I

630
00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:10,040
Speaker 2: want to know if you're willing to give me that chance.

631
00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:14,239
Speaker 2: I would ask him directly and hopefully he'll say yes.

632
00:37:15,320 --> 00:37:18,279
Speaker 2: And so that's one task we want you to accomplish

633
00:37:18,280 --> 00:37:21,480
Speaker 2: this week. And here's the other task we'd like you

634
00:37:21,560 --> 00:37:23,600
Speaker 2: to at least set up, but if you could execute,

635
00:37:23,640 --> 00:37:26,880
Speaker 2: that would be even better, they say to him. And

636
00:37:26,960 --> 00:37:30,520
Speaker 2: part of that is, I do think your partner is delightful.

637
00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:33,480
Speaker 2: I'm really interested in getting to know her, and I

638
00:37:33,520 --> 00:37:36,080
Speaker 2: would love to set up a zoom dinner with you

639
00:37:36,200 --> 00:37:37,920
Speaker 2: and her and my husband and I, the four of

640
00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:41,239
Speaker 2: us as two siblings and their spouses, just to have

641
00:37:41,320 --> 00:37:44,719
Speaker 2: dinner and just talk. Maybe this weekend if we can.

642
00:37:45,160 --> 00:37:48,879
Speaker 2: Because the best way to show Blake that you want

643
00:37:48,920 --> 00:37:50,880
Speaker 2: to have the relationship with him is to do it authentically,

644
00:37:50,880 --> 00:37:53,560
Speaker 2: and that means get to know the partner, hang out

645
00:37:53,640 --> 00:37:58,120
Speaker 2: as couples. And the one thing I would not do

646
00:37:58,200 --> 00:38:01,160
Speaker 2: in this entire conversation unless he brings it up is

647
00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:05,160
Speaker 2: don't mention John. John is not a part of this.

648
00:38:05,520 --> 00:38:07,879
Speaker 2: It's it's you because you can't mend it if it's

649
00:38:07,880 --> 00:38:09,360
Speaker 2: for you and John, because that just puts you and

650
00:38:09,440 --> 00:38:12,400
Speaker 2: John together again. So no, John, in this conversation, just

651
00:38:12,440 --> 00:38:15,080
Speaker 2: do you and Blake? Does that sound doable?

652
00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:17,760
Speaker 3: You have such great ideas, and I'm.

653
00:38:17,640 --> 00:38:20,120
Speaker 2: So glad you're smiling. Sometimes we give the ideas and

654
00:38:20,160 --> 00:38:20,959
Speaker 2: people look at us.

655
00:38:20,880 --> 00:38:24,759
Speaker 3: Like, what, No, that all makes sense?

656
00:38:24,840 --> 00:38:25,480
Speaker 2: You look willing.

657
00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:27,520
Speaker 1: I'm so glad, And I think the reason that you're

658
00:38:27,520 --> 00:38:29,680
Speaker 1: smiling is because we're not asking you to do anything

659
00:38:29,680 --> 00:38:32,480
Speaker 1: that you haven't been thinking or feeling. You've been saying,

660
00:38:32,560 --> 00:38:35,960
Speaker 1: I really want to have a different relationship with Blake.

661
00:38:36,040 --> 00:38:38,239
Speaker 1: But you've had it in your mind that I have

662
00:38:38,320 --> 00:38:40,120
Speaker 1: so much in common with John and I don't have

663
00:38:40,160 --> 00:38:42,479
Speaker 1: anything in common with Blake, and then when you talk

664
00:38:42,600 --> 00:38:46,160
Speaker 1: to us, it's a completely different story. So we want

665
00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:51,800
Speaker 1: you to move out of your fixed belief for a

666
00:38:51,840 --> 00:38:54,920
Speaker 1: little bit here. Oh and to say, wait a minute,

667
00:38:55,000 --> 00:38:58,600
Speaker 1: I need to get to know who Blake is, because already,

668
00:38:58,760 --> 00:39:01,000
Speaker 1: without having done the world, there's so much that I

669
00:39:01,040 --> 00:39:04,440
Speaker 1: think we would enjoy talking about with each other. But

670
00:39:04,520 --> 00:39:06,960
Speaker 1: once I actually put in the effort to get to

671
00:39:07,000 --> 00:39:11,200
Speaker 1: know him, I'll bet there's so much more. Okay, yeah,

672
00:39:11,280 --> 00:39:13,160
Speaker 1: all right, well good luck. We look forward to hearing

673
00:39:13,160 --> 00:39:19,080
Speaker 1: how it goes. I think she's tried so hard in

674
00:39:19,120 --> 00:39:21,239
Speaker 1: a lot of ways to say, well, how can I

675
00:39:21,239 --> 00:39:23,759
Speaker 1: include you? Maybe we can do a zoom call once

676
00:39:23,800 --> 00:39:26,920
Speaker 1: a month, right, And that's not what he's wanting, and

677
00:39:26,960 --> 00:39:29,319
Speaker 1: so that's why he hasn't been able to articulate it,

678
00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:32,600
Speaker 1: because I think at the core, what he's wanting is

679
00:39:32,640 --> 00:39:35,200
Speaker 1: her love, and he doesn't know how to say that.

680
00:39:35,320 --> 00:39:37,040
Speaker 1: He doesn't know how to say I want to feel

681
00:39:37,080 --> 00:39:41,560
Speaker 1: loved by you. And I think that opening the door

682
00:39:41,600 --> 00:39:45,240
Speaker 1: in this way and saying, look, I feel terrible about

683
00:39:45,239 --> 00:39:49,480
Speaker 1: what happened. I can imagine what you experienced, and I

684
00:39:49,520 --> 00:39:52,800
Speaker 1: also see the ways in which I'm perpetuating that now

685
00:39:53,239 --> 00:39:55,879
Speaker 1: and I want to change that. That's how you make

686
00:39:55,920 --> 00:39:56,880
Speaker 1: someone feel loved.

687
00:39:57,600 --> 00:40:00,480
Speaker 2: And a really important part here is that we can

688
00:40:00,640 --> 00:40:03,560
Speaker 2: not do that with John in the room. He has

689
00:40:03,600 --> 00:40:06,920
Speaker 2: to be not present for them to really connect, and

690
00:40:06,960 --> 00:40:09,319
Speaker 2: so I hope that will help as well.

691
00:40:10,040 --> 00:40:12,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, we really have to help them separate out the

692
00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:17,680
Speaker 1: sibling relationships. Sometimes siblings get so tangled up in the

693
00:40:17,760 --> 00:40:21,920
Speaker 1: coalitions between the siblings, and so John, I'll have whatever

694
00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:25,280
Speaker 1: relationship he's going to have with Blake, and maybe Danica's

695
00:40:25,320 --> 00:40:29,239
Speaker 1: relationship with Blake, as it improves, will encourage John to

696
00:40:29,760 --> 00:40:32,160
Speaker 1: reach out and have a different relationship with Blake, right

697
00:40:32,200 --> 00:40:35,840
Speaker 1: to model it for him exactly. But right now I

698
00:40:35,880 --> 00:40:39,600
Speaker 1: think there's so much possibility between Danica and Blake. So

699
00:40:39,680 --> 00:40:42,680
Speaker 1: I'm really looking forward to hearing how this week goes

700
00:40:42,680 --> 00:40:52,360
Speaker 1: for them. You're listening to Dear Therapist from My Heart Radio.

701
00:40:52,800 --> 00:41:05,560
Speaker 1: We'll be back after a quick break. So, Guy, we

702
00:41:05,600 --> 00:41:09,160
Speaker 1: heard back from Danica, but we should probably share with

703
00:41:09,239 --> 00:41:13,600
Speaker 1: people before we listen to that that she actually wrote

704
00:41:13,640 --> 00:41:17,200
Speaker 1: to our producer during the week and had some questions

705
00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:18,600
Speaker 1: about the assignment we gave her.

706
00:41:18,800 --> 00:41:21,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was a really interesting letter, and why don't

707
00:41:21,680 --> 00:41:23,200
Speaker 2: we let up produce a Mike read it?

708
00:41:24,120 --> 00:41:26,600
Speaker 4: Hi, Mike, so sorry. I was hoping you could forward

709
00:41:26,640 --> 00:41:30,160
Speaker 4: to Lori and Guy a question for clarification on my homework.

710
00:41:30,800 --> 00:41:33,080
Speaker 4: I just wanted to ask if it's okay and how

711
00:41:33,120 --> 00:41:35,400
Speaker 4: to tweak this so that it reflects the goal that

712
00:41:35,440 --> 00:41:37,920
Speaker 4: I have for this relationship. I want to have what

713
00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:41,240
Speaker 4: is probably a pretty typical kind of sibling relationship where

714
00:41:41,280 --> 00:41:45,200
Speaker 4: there's musual warmth and periodic enjoyment, but not a buzzombuddy

715
00:41:45,280 --> 00:41:48,200
Speaker 4: kind of relationship. I want to be closer, but not

716
00:41:48,280 --> 00:41:52,200
Speaker 4: necessarily close. This isn't because I de facto have something

717
00:41:52,239 --> 00:41:54,960
Speaker 4: against him or view him as deficient. I know you're

718
00:41:55,080 --> 00:41:58,400
Speaker 4: encouraging me to see Blake differently, but I really don't

719
00:41:58,440 --> 00:42:02,200
Speaker 4: think our sensibility is John. So it's laborious to have

720
00:42:02,320 --> 00:42:06,400
Speaker 4: conversations past a certain point. It's difficult because whether I

721
00:42:06,440 --> 00:42:09,239
Speaker 4: find him to be an interesting or engaging person is

722
00:42:09,280 --> 00:42:12,200
Speaker 4: a major source of pain and insecurity for him. But

723
00:42:12,320 --> 00:42:14,320
Speaker 4: on my side, I don't know how I can really

724
00:42:14,360 --> 00:42:17,719
Speaker 4: force feeling interest. I'm as interested in him as I

725
00:42:17,760 --> 00:42:19,959
Speaker 4: am in my sister and brothers in law, which means

726
00:42:19,960 --> 00:42:22,520
Speaker 4: we are perfectly happy and excited to see each other

727
00:42:22,560 --> 00:42:26,200
Speaker 4: and catch up periodically. If this is the case, how

728
00:42:26,200 --> 00:42:28,440
Speaker 4: can I really help Blake's pain over the fact that

729
00:42:28,520 --> 00:42:31,520
Speaker 4: John and I do just jive while Blake and I

730
00:42:31,640 --> 00:42:34,760
Speaker 4: aren't similar in that way? Does the suggest that approach

731
00:42:34,880 --> 00:42:39,400
Speaker 4: still apply in this case? Thank you for any clarification, Danica.

732
00:42:39,920 --> 00:42:45,040
Speaker 2: So what we told Mike is to tell Danica that

733
00:42:45,440 --> 00:42:47,640
Speaker 2: we gave her the suggestion of what we think she

734
00:42:47,680 --> 00:42:50,400
Speaker 2: should do. What she does and what she wants to

735
00:42:50,440 --> 00:42:52,680
Speaker 2: do is truly up to her, and we left it

736
00:42:52,719 --> 00:42:55,200
Speaker 2: in her hands. And that's why I am super curious

737
00:42:55,800 --> 00:42:56,920
Speaker 2: to hear this voicemail.

738
00:42:57,840 --> 00:43:00,680
Speaker 5: Hi Laurie, Hi guy. I wanted to send you an

739
00:43:00,760 --> 00:43:03,880
Speaker 5: update on how things have been going with Blake. So

740
00:43:04,440 --> 00:43:06,960
Speaker 5: I had a couple talks with him. The first he

741
00:43:07,160 --> 00:43:09,480
Speaker 5: was on his way to a camping trip, so the

742
00:43:09,520 --> 00:43:14,920
Speaker 5: whole conversation was only twenty five minutes or so. I

743
00:43:14,920 --> 00:43:17,760
Speaker 5: apologized for how I treated him when we were kids,

744
00:43:18,320 --> 00:43:21,560
Speaker 5: continuing to marginalize him outside of the diad I have

745
00:43:21,719 --> 00:43:24,800
Speaker 5: with my older brother, and expressed what I admired and

746
00:43:24,960 --> 00:43:27,600
Speaker 5: enjoy about him, and let him know that I wanted

747
00:43:27,640 --> 00:43:30,400
Speaker 5: to put in the effort to build a relationship with him,

748
00:43:31,000 --> 00:43:34,400
Speaker 5: and it went really well. He said something like Wow,

749
00:43:34,480 --> 00:43:37,360
Speaker 5: that was a lot better than what I've expected, and

750
00:43:37,400 --> 00:43:40,200
Speaker 5: he really did sound happy and just to lighter than

751
00:43:40,719 --> 00:43:44,799
Speaker 5: our past few interactions have been. And then a week

752
00:43:44,920 --> 00:43:48,360
Speaker 5: later I had another call with him. It wasn't a

753
00:43:48,440 --> 00:43:51,600
Speaker 5: video chat double date. He wanted to talk just the

754
00:43:51,640 --> 00:43:55,279
Speaker 5: two of us, so we caught up and circled back

755
00:43:55,320 --> 00:43:59,240
Speaker 5: to our relationships and childhood. One thing that we talked

756
00:43:59,280 --> 00:44:02,160
Speaker 5: about a lot was the idea that I was in

757
00:44:02,239 --> 00:44:05,600
Speaker 5: the role of a pseudo parent as a kid. And

758
00:44:05,640 --> 00:44:10,400
Speaker 5: it's interesting because he seems to vacillate between saying he

759
00:44:10,480 --> 00:44:13,719
Speaker 5: wants us to be equals, just siblings, not little brother,

760
00:44:13,840 --> 00:44:18,440
Speaker 5: older sister, and then also saying he wants an older sister,

761
00:44:18,719 --> 00:44:21,080
Speaker 5: someone who looks out for him, goes out of her

762
00:44:21,120 --> 00:44:22,879
Speaker 5: way to make him feel wanted and.

763
00:44:22,800 --> 00:44:23,880
Speaker 3: Worth the effort to know.

764
00:44:24,880 --> 00:44:28,600
Speaker 5: And I honestly didn't quite understand what he wanted before,

765
00:44:28,680 --> 00:44:31,680
Speaker 5: but the thought of going back and trying to be

766
00:44:31,800 --> 00:44:34,879
Speaker 5: a better pseudo parent makes sense to me. I kind

767
00:44:34,920 --> 00:44:37,800
Speaker 5: of think of it as if we were tennis partners.

768
00:44:37,800 --> 00:44:40,560
Speaker 5: I would lob seventy five percent of the balls for

769
00:44:40,600 --> 00:44:43,480
Speaker 5: a while and let him lob twenty five percent, so

770
00:44:44,080 --> 00:44:47,839
Speaker 5: we would work up to fifty to fifty eventually. And

771
00:44:48,440 --> 00:44:52,120
Speaker 5: I just think that it's so neat that my diad

772
00:44:52,160 --> 00:44:56,600
Speaker 5: with him and my family has gotten so much out

773
00:44:56,600 --> 00:44:59,399
Speaker 5: of talking with you for just an hour or so.

774
00:45:00,040 --> 00:45:02,919
Speaker 5: Really want to thank you for helping us. I hope

775
00:45:02,960 --> 00:45:07,640
Speaker 5: this podcast helps other listeners out there, especially as we

776
00:45:07,800 --> 00:45:11,160
Speaker 5: go into the holidays, So thank you so much.

777
00:45:17,120 --> 00:45:20,480
Speaker 1: So when I heard that email, it felt to me

778
00:45:21,160 --> 00:45:26,000
Speaker 1: like Danica was experiencing a lot of resistance to connecting

779
00:45:26,000 --> 00:45:29,000
Speaker 1: with Blake. And I wasn't really sure what that was about.

780
00:45:29,000 --> 00:45:31,000
Speaker 1: But she had every excuse in the book. You know,

781
00:45:31,120 --> 00:45:33,560
Speaker 1: we're really not SYMPATICO. I'm not really sure what we

782
00:45:33,640 --> 00:45:38,319
Speaker 1: have in common. John and I just naturally click, which

783
00:45:38,360 --> 00:45:42,120
Speaker 1: is everything that Blake is so upset about. And so

784
00:45:42,160 --> 00:45:46,440
Speaker 1: it was almost like, after a conversation, which is not uncommon,

785
00:45:47,239 --> 00:45:51,120
Speaker 1: she went back to square one because whatever defense is

786
00:45:51,160 --> 00:45:55,560
Speaker 1: against whatever she was feeling cropped up brought her back there.

787
00:45:56,040 --> 00:45:59,759
Speaker 1: And what we did as therapists was what we would

788
00:45:59,760 --> 00:46:02,960
Speaker 1: do if any client who came to see us, which

789
00:46:03,000 --> 00:46:06,960
Speaker 1: is here was the conversation, and you make of it

790
00:46:07,040 --> 00:46:08,920
Speaker 1: what you will, and we'll talk about it next week.

791
00:46:09,560 --> 00:46:10,920
Speaker 1: And that's what we did with her.

792
00:46:11,480 --> 00:46:15,720
Speaker 2: And that's the thing about someone's old story, old script.

793
00:46:15,760 --> 00:46:18,520
Speaker 2: It's really strong. So they sit in the session, they

794
00:46:18,520 --> 00:46:20,600
Speaker 2: get the advice, but when they leave, it starts to

795
00:46:20,680 --> 00:46:23,200
Speaker 2: creep back, and it starts to dominate their thoughts. And

796
00:46:23,200 --> 00:46:26,160
Speaker 2: then she goes back to but wait, you know, really

797
00:46:26,200 --> 00:46:27,840
Speaker 2: the old way of thinking in that email, it was

798
00:46:27,880 --> 00:46:30,680
Speaker 2: almost like we hadn't had the discussion with her. But

799
00:46:30,719 --> 00:46:32,920
Speaker 2: the way I felt about the voicemail once I heard

800
00:46:32,960 --> 00:46:35,239
Speaker 2: it is exactly like Blake, Oh well, that meant so

801
00:46:35,360 --> 00:46:39,640
Speaker 2: much better than I expected, exactly.

802
00:46:39,719 --> 00:46:43,640
Speaker 1: And you can see why he thought that, because everything

803
00:46:43,680 --> 00:46:47,120
Speaker 1: that she said there was probably communicated verbally or nonverbally

804
00:46:47,160 --> 00:46:49,640
Speaker 1: to Blake in some way. And then when she sat

805
00:46:49,680 --> 00:46:51,800
Speaker 1: with it a little bit more, which is what happens

806
00:46:51,800 --> 00:46:54,720
Speaker 1: with people, she was able to access the other version

807
00:46:54,760 --> 00:46:57,440
Speaker 1: of the story and there was more to the story,

808
00:46:57,760 --> 00:46:58,080
Speaker 1: and she.

809
00:46:58,040 --> 00:46:59,960
Speaker 2: Said he was very interested in this idea of her

810
00:47:00,160 --> 00:47:03,520
Speaker 2: being a bit of a parentified older sister and having

811
00:47:03,520 --> 00:47:06,200
Speaker 2: that role. And I think that's in part what he

812
00:47:06,360 --> 00:47:09,480
Speaker 2: was responding to that he felt so happy and so

813
00:47:09,560 --> 00:47:13,160
Speaker 2: much lighter because that's her owning much more of the

814
00:47:13,200 --> 00:47:16,480
Speaker 2: impact than she had previously by just saying sorry, I

815
00:47:16,560 --> 00:47:17,320
Speaker 2: was mean to you.

816
00:47:17,440 --> 00:47:20,400
Speaker 1: When we were kids, right, And it was nice to

817
00:47:20,440 --> 00:47:23,160
Speaker 1: hear that he doesn't want that forever. What he wants

818
00:47:23,200 --> 00:47:26,840
Speaker 1: is an equal relationship, but that there's a lot of

819
00:47:26,880 --> 00:47:30,480
Speaker 1: catching up to do, and as they try to repair

820
00:47:30,520 --> 00:47:33,080
Speaker 1: this relationship, they're going to have to go through different

821
00:47:33,360 --> 00:47:35,879
Speaker 1: phases of it. I thought it was really interesting when

822
00:47:35,880 --> 00:47:38,040
Speaker 1: she said in her email, I want to be closer,

823
00:47:38,239 --> 00:47:42,879
Speaker 1: but not necessarily close. There's something that she gets out

824
00:47:42,880 --> 00:47:46,200
Speaker 1: of this too, So it wasn't just that Blake got

825
00:47:46,239 --> 00:47:48,280
Speaker 1: something out of it and he felt better. You could

826
00:47:48,320 --> 00:47:52,040
Speaker 1: hear in her voicemail she felt better. And the part

827
00:47:52,120 --> 00:47:54,680
Speaker 1: that she's going to have to really explore a little

828
00:47:54,719 --> 00:47:58,279
Speaker 1: bit more is why is it scary for her to

829
00:47:58,320 --> 00:48:01,480
Speaker 1: get close to him because there was so much resistance

830
00:48:01,520 --> 00:48:04,319
Speaker 1: to that? And why is it scary for her to

831
00:48:04,440 --> 00:48:08,720
Speaker 1: actually feel some positive feelings toward Blake and to connect

832
00:48:08,719 --> 00:48:10,520
Speaker 1: with him the way she connects with John. Now, maybe

833
00:48:10,520 --> 00:48:12,840
Speaker 1: she'll never connect with Blake in the same way that

834
00:48:12,880 --> 00:48:15,840
Speaker 1: she connects with John. But it seems like even she

835
00:48:16,000 --> 00:48:21,080
Speaker 1: is aware, particularly after having these conversations, that there is

836
00:48:21,120 --> 00:48:23,919
Speaker 1: a lot of room for connection there. And so what

837
00:48:24,000 --> 00:48:26,040
Speaker 1: was that resistance about. That's going to be something for

838
00:48:26,080 --> 00:48:27,120
Speaker 1: her to understand better.

839
00:48:27,840 --> 00:48:30,800
Speaker 2: She must have been somewhat apprehensive, like she's opening a

840
00:48:30,880 --> 00:48:31,680
Speaker 2: kind of wombs.

841
00:48:31,920 --> 00:48:35,520
Speaker 1: I really feel like she is afraid that she is

842
00:48:35,560 --> 00:48:38,560
Speaker 1: going to be confronted by getting closer to him with

843
00:48:38,840 --> 00:48:42,680
Speaker 1: maybe her guilt about how she treated him, maybe it's

844
00:48:42,719 --> 00:48:45,640
Speaker 1: going to bring up some uncomfortable feelings in her, but

845
00:48:45,719 --> 00:48:49,359
Speaker 1: I think if she can not self flagellate over that

846
00:48:49,920 --> 00:48:53,120
Speaker 1: and really be the sister that he's always wanted her

847
00:48:53,160 --> 00:48:57,320
Speaker 1: to be, that they're both going to grow so much

848
00:48:57,600 --> 00:48:58,640
Speaker 1: from this experience.

849
00:48:59,080 --> 00:49:01,440
Speaker 2: The last thing she said that I really liked is

850
00:49:01,480 --> 00:49:03,880
Speaker 2: she said, yes, I'll have to love seventy five percent

851
00:49:03,920 --> 00:49:06,919
Speaker 2: of the bulls for now, which is a great way

852
00:49:07,000 --> 00:49:09,480
Speaker 2: to illor Street that she totally gets that, Yes, the

853
00:49:09,480 --> 00:49:11,360
Speaker 2: burden of proof is on me, because this is in

854
00:49:11,400 --> 00:49:14,120
Speaker 2: part what Blake was communicating to her. It's nice that

855
00:49:14,160 --> 00:49:16,279
Speaker 2: you're saying this. It makes me feel really really good.

856
00:49:16,480 --> 00:49:18,560
Speaker 2: I need to see it in action for a little

857
00:49:18,600 --> 00:49:20,960
Speaker 2: bit before I can really believe it. And he's right,

858
00:49:21,000 --> 00:49:23,200
Speaker 2: he should see it in action, and she should deliver

859
00:49:23,239 --> 00:49:25,160
Speaker 2: it in action. And I hope she will indeed do

860
00:49:25,320 --> 00:49:30,560
Speaker 2: that because that will really start to realign that relationship.

861
00:49:30,320 --> 00:49:32,799
Speaker 1: And the fact that she had the conversation with him

862
00:49:32,840 --> 00:49:37,080
Speaker 1: without John, that it wasn't the siblings as a diad

863
00:49:37,440 --> 00:49:39,960
Speaker 1: talking to Blake, and I think that they will do

864
00:49:40,080 --> 00:49:43,440
Speaker 1: that double date at some point, meaning Blake and his

865
00:49:43,520 --> 00:49:46,720
Speaker 1: partner and Danica and her partner. So they can start

866
00:49:46,760 --> 00:49:51,400
Speaker 1: to establish adult sibling relationships that are not about the

867
00:49:51,480 --> 00:49:56,840
Speaker 1: three siblings and those dynamics, but about Danica and Blake

868
00:49:57,239 --> 00:50:00,640
Speaker 1: and their partners and their adult lives. That will also

869
00:50:00,719 --> 00:50:01,560
Speaker 1: be a game changer.

870
00:50:01,960 --> 00:50:04,680
Speaker 2: And I think this shows us that despite how difficult

871
00:50:04,719 --> 00:50:07,719
Speaker 2: that childhood was for Blake, for Danika and John two,

872
00:50:07,800 --> 00:50:11,440
Speaker 2: but for Blake especially, it's never too late if your

873
00:50:11,440 --> 00:50:18,960
Speaker 2: heart is in the right place to do the repair. Hey,

874
00:50:19,000 --> 00:50:22,200
Speaker 2: fellow travelers, if you've used any of our advice from

875
00:50:22,239 --> 00:50:24,759
Speaker 2: the podcast in your own life, send us a quick

876
00:50:24,840 --> 00:50:28,640
Speaker 2: voice memo to Loriandguy at iHeartMedia dot com and tell

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Speaker 2: us about it. We may include it in a future show.

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Speaker 1: And if you're enjoying our podcast each week, please help

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Speaker 1: support Dear Therapists. You can tell your friends about it

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Speaker 1: and we'd be so grateful if you leave us a

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Speaker 1: five star review on Apple Podcasts. Your reviews help people

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Speaker 1: find the show. You can follow us both online. I'm

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Speaker 1: at Lorigottlieb dot com and you can follow me on

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Speaker 1: Twitter at Lorigottlieb one or on Instagram at Lorigottlieb Underscore Author.

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Speaker 2: And I'm at Guywinch dot com. I'm on Twitter and

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Speaker 2: on Instagram at Guy Wench. If you have a dilemma

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Speaker 2: you'd like to discuss with us, big or small, email

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Speaker 2: us at Lorian Guy at iHeartMedia dot com.

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00:51:08,080 --> 00:51:12,359
Speaker 1: Our executive producers Christopher Hasiotis, were produced and edited by

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00:51:12,400 --> 00:51:16,399
Speaker 1: Mike Johns. Special thanks to Samuel Benefield and to our

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Speaker 1: podcast Fairy Godmother Katie Couric.

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Speaker 2: Next Week, a man struggles to trust his wife again

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Speaker 2: after she has an affair.

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00:51:23,400 --> 00:51:27,160
Speaker 6: She said, I'm sorry for everything I've done. I know

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Speaker 6: you were hurt. I would like to work it out

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00:51:30,160 --> 00:51:33,440
Speaker 6: with you. Could you give me a chance? I said,

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00:51:33,560 --> 00:51:35,479
Speaker 6: why do you want to come back? The last time

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Speaker 6: I saw you, I pushed you out.

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Speaker 3: Why.

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Speaker 6: I just don't understand this.

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Speaker 1: Dear Therapist is a production of iHeartRadio.