WEBVTT - CHAPTER EIGHT: The Trouble Closer to Home 0:00:01.520 --> 0:00:03.200 Hey there, I want to give you a heads up 0:00:03.279 --> 0:00:06.760 that this episode will discuss sexual abuse. Please listen with care. 0:00:08.320 --> 0:00:13.200 Previously on Hello John Dale, I think. 0:00:13.160 --> 0:00:15.240 Everybody's got an origin, and I would just like to 0:00:15.280 --> 0:00:16.600 know you know where I will get. 0:00:17.480 --> 0:00:19.880 The girls were traumatized by the tornado because we were 0:00:19.920 --> 0:00:23.800 in the trailer when the tornado hit and we had 0:00:23.840 --> 0:00:26.640 no way out. When you try to talk to her 0:00:26.680 --> 0:00:28.880 about certain things when we were little, she would change 0:00:28.920 --> 0:00:29.800 the subject real quick. 0:00:30.400 --> 0:00:33.160 Yes, she regrets that she didn't do everything that she could. 0:00:33.600 --> 0:00:36.239 She's putting a lot of the blame on herself, and 0:00:36.280 --> 0:00:39.720 I'm like, Mom, you know it's not just your fault. 0:00:46.720 --> 0:00:49.080 In the past few chapters, I've told you about Franklin 0:00:49.120 --> 0:00:52.440 for it's destructive impact on Steve's birth family. We heard 0:00:52.440 --> 0:00:55.440 how he kidnapped Steve's sister, Susie Sevegas, and how he 0:00:55.520 --> 0:00:59.440 kidnapped Michael, HER's son, and how Susie was killed and 0:00:59.480 --> 0:01:03.120 how Michael was never found. These stories are all part 0:01:03.160 --> 0:01:06.240 of the fabric of Steve's birth family, their traumatic past 0:01:06.280 --> 0:01:09.080 they've had to live with and grapple with. When Steve 0:01:09.160 --> 0:01:11.440 learned of his family of origin, some of their trauma 0:01:11.480 --> 0:01:14.760 became his trauma too, he started to mourn the sister 0:01:14.880 --> 0:01:17.600 that he never had. It's like Steve's been in during 0:01:17.640 --> 0:01:20.800 survivor's guilt and a feeling of being abandoned. At the 0:01:20.840 --> 0:01:22.960 same time, he's trying to figure out who he really is. 0:01:26.000 --> 0:01:28.959 He's facing an emotional mind field, and lately he can't 0:01:28.959 --> 0:01:32.520 stop thinking about the family never knew existed. Like his 0:01:32.600 --> 0:01:36.520 older sister, Amy Winkles, Sandy's third daughter. They found each 0:01:36.520 --> 0:01:39.040 other in twenty nineteen, the same way Steve found their mom, 0:01:39.160 --> 0:01:40.559 Sady on Facebook. 0:01:41.080 --> 0:01:42.120 I told her who I was. 0:01:41.959 --> 0:01:45.880 I think you're my sister, and then she's like, you 0:01:45.920 --> 0:01:50.080 gotta be kidding what I'm not kidding And then we 0:01:50.120 --> 0:01:51.280 just went back and forth from there. 0:01:52.120 --> 0:01:54.600 Amy read me some of those early Facebook messages. 0:01:55.560 --> 0:01:58.400 I said, Wow, I hate to say that I never 0:01:58.440 --> 0:02:00.440 believed her when she said we have had a brother 0:02:00.520 --> 0:02:03.400 named Steve, Well, let me tell you a little bit 0:02:03.440 --> 0:02:03.840 about me. 0:02:05.120 --> 0:02:07.920 The two shared DNA but knew almost nothing about each other, 0:02:08.440 --> 0:02:10.560 so they started feeling in each other in the details 0:02:10.600 --> 0:02:13.760 of their lives, if they were married, if they had kids, 0:02:14.120 --> 0:02:17.160 but they did for work for days. They talked on 0:02:17.280 --> 0:02:20.959 and off. Once he was ready, Steve asked something that 0:02:21.000 --> 0:02:22.560 had been weighing on him. 0:02:23.000 --> 0:02:24.720 And then he said, or are you calm enough to 0:02:24.760 --> 0:02:27.200 ask a question? And I said, yeah, what's on your mind? 0:02:27.880 --> 0:02:29.120 He said? Who is my dad? 0:02:30.280 --> 0:02:32.760 Steve hoped maybe Amy knew something no one else did, 0:02:33.080 --> 0:02:36.240 maybe she had some insight, but Amy didn't. 0:02:39.560 --> 0:02:42.200 I said, let me ask you something. How did you 0:02:42.320 --> 0:02:45.360 end up where you are? Did she give you away 0:02:45.520 --> 0:02:50.560 or what? He said, Yes, she gave me away. I said, 0:02:50.600 --> 0:02:53.960 did you have a good childhood? He said, call me. 0:02:55.200 --> 0:03:00.000 That's when Steve got real with Amy, and then he went. 0:03:00.200 --> 0:03:04.760 To his feelings, said that he's a bastard and I said, no, 0:03:04.960 --> 0:03:08.520 you're my brother, and that's what matters to me. He said, 0:03:08.560 --> 0:03:11.040 nobody cared about me. For forty five years. 0:03:12.080 --> 0:03:15.240 Steve felt abandoned, and he was fixated on the fact 0:03:15.240 --> 0:03:18.200 that his parents weren't even a couple, definitely not married. 0:03:19.080 --> 0:03:23.519 He was, in his words, a bastard. Amy set him straight. 0:03:24.040 --> 0:03:26.000 She read me the message just you sent to Steve. 0:03:26.880 --> 0:03:29.240 I didn't know you were alive. I was told you 0:03:29.320 --> 0:03:32.080 died as a baby. If I knew about you, I 0:03:32.080 --> 0:03:35.400 would have searched the world for you. I was robbed 0:03:35.400 --> 0:03:38.200 of knowing you and you were robbed of knowing me. 0:03:39.320 --> 0:03:41.960 She blamed some of this on her mom. Amy felt 0:03:41.960 --> 0:03:43.760 like Sandy didn't tell her the full story. When she 0:03:43.800 --> 0:03:47.000 was growing up. Sandy hadn't told her that Floyd forced 0:03:47.040 --> 0:03:49.520 her to give away Steve, or that she hitchhied looking 0:03:49.520 --> 0:03:52.480 for her missing kids. Now it was on Amy to 0:03:52.480 --> 0:03:54.720 make sense of the pastor for Steve. They talked on 0:03:54.800 --> 0:03:56.680 and off for the next two years, as the world 0:03:56.720 --> 0:04:00.880 dealt with COVID nineteen and travel was discouraged. In twenty 0:04:00.920 --> 0:04:03.520 twenty one, Aim and her husband packed up the car 0:04:03.600 --> 0:04:06.640 and made the trip from eastern Virginia to Charboro, North Carolina, 0:04:07.040 --> 0:04:12.520 to meet Steve for the first time. Both siblings had 0:04:12.520 --> 0:04:15.000 a serious case of the jitters, where they both act 0:04:15.040 --> 0:04:17.480 the same, look the same, but they get along. 0:04:18.520 --> 0:04:19.600 They stay focused on. 0:04:19.560 --> 0:04:22.640 The small details, the ones that were easier to control, 0:04:23.120 --> 0:04:24.200 and they kept texting. 0:04:24.880 --> 0:04:27.279 I said, we can come to you and order pizza, 0:04:27.800 --> 0:04:31.240 and he said, okay, we could go anywhere. I'll pay 0:04:31.320 --> 0:04:33.640 and I was like, on our way. He said, the 0:04:33.720 --> 0:04:37.040 place we were staying at right now is shitty and 0:04:37.080 --> 0:04:40.839 I'm embarrassed. I said, don't be. We aren't high allar either, 0:04:44.320 --> 0:04:46.680 and then he said, Okay, I'm nervous. I don't ever 0:04:46.680 --> 0:04:49.560 get nervous. I was like me too, and then I 0:04:49.560 --> 0:04:50.279 said I'm here. 0:04:51.200 --> 0:04:54.800 After almost fifty years apart, the siblings were face to face. 0:04:55.760 --> 0:04:57.839 We held each other tight. I mean I had said, 0:04:57.920 --> 0:05:00.960 oh my god, and I held a and I said, god, 0:05:01.040 --> 0:05:02.480 you look just like Papa. 0:05:03.200 --> 0:05:05.159 That's her grandpa, Sandy's dad. 0:05:05.600 --> 0:05:08.479 And it was like we held on for quite a while. 0:05:09.520 --> 0:05:12.760 It was kind of emotional. We got the same personality 0:05:13.320 --> 0:05:15.960 more or less. She's a little bit lighter now, she's 0:05:16.000 --> 0:05:17.479 got a sense of email. She'll tell you like it 0:05:17.520 --> 0:05:20.599 is too now. She don't should have coad anything. She's 0:05:20.640 --> 0:05:21.240 a trait shooter. 0:05:23.000 --> 0:05:25.320 That day in North Carolina wasn't just a reunion for 0:05:25.320 --> 0:05:28.000 Steve and Amy. There was someone else who said goodbye 0:05:28.040 --> 0:05:31.320 to Amy half a century ago. Mary Patterson, the woman 0:05:31.360 --> 0:05:32.480 who had adopted Steve. 0:05:33.279 --> 0:05:37.360 Than my family. Now, you know, you know you could 0:05:37.400 --> 0:05:38.200 have been my child. 0:05:43.040 --> 0:05:46.239 You might remember this from before Steve's adopted mama. Mary 0:05:46.279 --> 0:05:48.719 considered taking all of Sandy's four kids, but didn't have 0:05:48.760 --> 0:05:51.920 the room in her trailer. Mary had always wondered about 0:05:51.960 --> 0:05:55.080 the three girls she left behind, Susy, Allison, and now 0:05:55.320 --> 0:05:56.560 here was Amy in front of her. 0:05:57.520 --> 0:05:59.880 I could have had you, she said, you had a 0:06:00.000 --> 0:06:01.040 I mean, I wouldn't went through what. 0:06:01.040 --> 0:06:01.640 I went through. 0:06:03.120 --> 0:06:06.280 The first time she hugged me, you could feel her 0:06:06.360 --> 0:06:10.720 ex hell to know that she wanted me, but it 0:06:10.760 --> 0:06:13.279 wasn't able to take me and for her to be 0:06:13.320 --> 0:06:14.760 able to see that I was okay. 0:06:16.080 --> 0:06:18.080 If Amy or Stay were worried that they might run 0:06:18.080 --> 0:06:20.239 out of things to say, they were dead wrong. 0:06:21.120 --> 0:06:24.640 We cried quite a while, and then we just sat 0:06:24.680 --> 0:06:27.760 there and we talked, went out to eat and talk, 0:06:28.080 --> 0:06:30.360 fought over who was paying for what, you know, all 0:06:30.400 --> 0:06:33.200 that sort of stuff like Girls of the Slumber Party. 0:06:33.200 --> 0:06:35.040 You just want to sit around and talk and talk 0:06:35.120 --> 0:06:35.520 and talk. 0:06:36.360 --> 0:06:38.840 Finding the family stable loss was just the first step. 0:06:39.279 --> 0:06:41.800 The next was deciding how and where he fits in. 0:06:42.600 --> 0:06:45.279 At this point, Steve was open to Amy, but he 0:06:45.400 --> 0:06:47.200 wasn't so sure he wanted to know Sandy. 0:06:47.960 --> 0:06:49.640 I don't blame him for not wanting to talk to 0:06:49.680 --> 0:06:53.000 her at all, and I try not to talk about 0:06:53.080 --> 0:06:58.080 her to him because I feel kind of guilty because 0:06:58.200 --> 0:07:01.080 I lived with her our whole life and he didn't, 0:07:01.839 --> 0:07:05.000 and it wasn't his choice. That's part of the guilt 0:07:05.000 --> 0:07:05.440 that I have. 0:07:10.560 --> 0:07:12.680 Steve didn't know it yet, but Amy was once at 0:07:12.720 --> 0:07:15.440 a crossroads too, figuring out how she wanted Sandy in 0:07:15.480 --> 0:07:18.720 her life. For a couple of years, she stopped talking 0:07:18.760 --> 0:07:22.440 to their mom entirely. You see, Amy had her fair 0:07:22.520 --> 0:07:26.120 sheriff suffering under Sandy's roof. In this chapter, we'll go 0:07:26.200 --> 0:07:28.280 back to Amy's childhood and hear her mixed feelings a 0:07:28.280 --> 0:07:32.240 better upbringing. Steve missed all of it back then, but 0:07:32.320 --> 0:07:34.320 he was about to learn the trauma that shot through 0:07:34.360 --> 0:07:36.800 his birth family was worse than he could have imagined. 0:07:43.640 --> 0:07:46.160 My name is Todd Matthews and this is hello John Doe, 0:07:46.400 --> 0:07:49.200 a sleuth, a family, and a serial killer. The story 0:07:49.200 --> 0:07:51.440 of the family torn apart by a tragedy and my 0:07:51.600 --> 0:07:58.760 quest to bring them back together. Chapter eight, The Trouble 0:07:58.800 --> 0:08:06.240 Closer to Home. Amy's a bus driver in Isla, White County. 0:08:06.520 --> 0:08:10.240 It's a mostly rural county in eastern Virginia. Every day 0:08:10.320 --> 0:08:12.680 she makes her rounds and opens those doors with a smile. 0:08:13.720 --> 0:08:16.960 Those are my children. You don't know what their life 0:08:17.000 --> 0:08:20.640 is like outside of the time you see them. 0:08:21.080 --> 0:08:23.280 In a lot of cases, she just doesn't know what 0:08:23.360 --> 0:08:26.120 kind of home the kids are going back to maybe 0:08:26.120 --> 0:08:28.679 they're going hungry, maybe their parents just turn around. 0:08:29.320 --> 0:08:30.119 Maybe it's worse. 0:08:31.120 --> 0:08:34.440 I know that I may be the only smile they 0:08:34.480 --> 0:08:36.520 get in the day. I may be the only I 0:08:36.559 --> 0:08:39.520 love you, or I may be the only one that say, hey, 0:08:39.559 --> 0:08:40.559 we don't behave like that. 0:08:41.400 --> 0:08:43.320 To know Amy Winkles is to know what a big 0:08:43.360 --> 0:08:47.560 heart she has. She lets everyone in her kids, her family, 0:08:47.920 --> 0:08:50.440 even me. But she wasn't always this way. 0:08:51.000 --> 0:08:53.679 I beat all my brothers and sisters up all the time. 0:08:54.720 --> 0:08:57.080 When she was a kid. Amy was a bully of sorts. 0:08:57.240 --> 0:08:59.800 She often acted out. When I met her in Virginia, 0:09:00.040 --> 0:09:02.680 he was warm and friendly. She laughed a lot. I 0:09:02.720 --> 0:09:04.920 had a hard time squaring Nat with the raide she 0:09:04.960 --> 0:09:07.239 carried around in childhood. 0:09:08.559 --> 0:09:12.320 I was a fighter and then Dodi was the angel. 0:09:12.440 --> 0:09:15.840 So I was secretly beating tar out at Dodie wife. Yeah, 0:09:15.920 --> 0:09:18.720 I'd beat her up when nobody else was around. 0:09:19.920 --> 0:09:23.440 Dodie is Dorothy Sandy's youngest. Amy grew up in Sandy's 0:09:23.440 --> 0:09:26.560 house in coastal Virginia. Her dad was Dennis Brandenburg, the 0:09:26.600 --> 0:09:27.560 professional gambler. 0:09:28.120 --> 0:09:30.520 It's not a whole lot to tell. I mean, we 0:09:30.600 --> 0:09:35.240 grew up your typical low income family, but. 0:09:35.240 --> 0:09:38.680 She wasn't raised by her father. Amy was raised by Carson, 0:09:39.000 --> 0:09:41.839 Sandy's last husband, who died in twenty ten, the one 0:09:41.880 --> 0:09:44.520 she was married to for thirty years, who she called Sonny. 0:09:45.480 --> 0:09:47.600 He was the only dad I ever knew. I never 0:09:47.640 --> 0:09:49.800 got to meet my dad. I was told that he 0:09:49.880 --> 0:09:51.080 died before I was born. 0:09:51.960 --> 0:09:55.680 Later, Amy learned that wasn't true. Dennis wasn't dead after all, 0:09:56.360 --> 0:09:58.679 Sandy said Dennis his grandmother lied to her. 0:10:00.000 --> 0:10:00.400 Anyway. 0:10:00.559 --> 0:10:03.800 Growing up, Amy was violent toward her siblings, but she 0:10:03.840 --> 0:10:07.160 didn't really get why she kept laying her hands on them. 0:10:07.400 --> 0:10:09.520 Much later, she was able to connect it to something 0:10:09.559 --> 0:10:10.600 she dealt with as a child. 0:10:11.840 --> 0:10:16.800 Carson abused me from the time I was seven until 0:10:16.840 --> 0:10:21.760 I got out. It was sexual abuse. The whole nine yards. 0:10:22.240 --> 0:10:26.560 Anything you can think of happen happened from seven until 0:10:26.600 --> 0:10:28.640 I was fourteen. It started when I was seven. 0:10:32.480 --> 0:10:35.280 For several years, Amy didn't speak up, which is common. 0:10:35.320 --> 0:10:38.160 By the way, Amy was scared to fight back against Carson, 0:10:38.200 --> 0:10:42.120 her stepfather, or even to tell her mom. Sandy told 0:10:42.160 --> 0:10:44.120 us herself that she didn't always speak the right guy 0:10:44.120 --> 0:10:46.760 in her life, but she thought her husband of thirty years, 0:10:47.240 --> 0:10:51.280 the one that stuck around was the exception that Amy 0:10:51.280 --> 0:10:53.520 said that her mama often chose men over her kids, 0:10:53.920 --> 0:10:55.720 and Sandy could have a temper. 0:10:55.920 --> 0:10:58.720 If she had a man, she was fine. The time 0:10:58.800 --> 0:11:01.680 she didn't have a man, it was hell. It was 0:11:01.720 --> 0:11:04.640 like she was mad at all of us kids because 0:11:04.640 --> 0:11:05.480 she didn't have a man. 0:11:06.960 --> 0:11:10.200 The sexual abuse went on for seven years. At the 0:11:10.200 --> 0:11:13.199 beginning of high school, Amy met a boy named Mike Winkles. 0:11:13.960 --> 0:11:17.520 My husband and I are high school sweethearts. We started 0:11:17.600 --> 0:11:20.200 dating the first day of school. I was in ninth grade. 0:11:20.280 --> 0:11:22.959 He was a senior. He knocked my books out of 0:11:23.000 --> 0:11:25.000 my hand going down the hallway, and I grabbed his 0:11:25.080 --> 0:11:27.480 ear and made him pick a up right in front 0:11:27.520 --> 0:11:31.480 of all his friends. And we haven't been separated since. 0:11:32.440 --> 0:11:34.520 One day when they were in high school, Mike was 0:11:34.520 --> 0:11:39.400 ob at Amy's house, Carson, her stepfather had a strange request. 0:11:38.920 --> 0:11:41.920 For Mike asked him to go buy him some condoms. 0:11:42.520 --> 0:11:45.520 This startled Mike and it made him realize his girlfriend 0:11:45.559 --> 0:11:49.040 was being abused by her stepfather. He got angry and 0:11:49.080 --> 0:11:52.920 told Amy she was coming with him. 0:11:53.160 --> 0:11:55.000 I went to the house and packed it back. He said, 0:11:55.040 --> 0:11:57.920 you're leaving now, and I don't know if it's just 0:11:58.440 --> 0:12:00.679 when he said, why does your dad want me to 0:12:00.760 --> 0:12:04.240 go buy condoms or whatever? And I think I might 0:12:04.280 --> 0:12:06.480 have blurted out so he can use them on me. 0:12:07.559 --> 0:12:09.400 And that's when Amy went to her mother, Sandy. 0:12:10.240 --> 0:12:13.199 She believed me because he didn't deny it. I said 0:12:13.200 --> 0:12:15.480 something to her, and she said something to him, and 0:12:15.520 --> 0:12:19.080 he admitted to it. He never denied the abuse. 0:12:19.400 --> 0:12:23.079 Never I asked Sandy about it. 0:12:23.880 --> 0:12:30.120 She said that her dad had touched her, that Sonny 0:12:30.160 --> 0:12:32.960 had touched her. So I confront of him right away 0:12:33.000 --> 0:12:33.480 about it. 0:12:34.200 --> 0:12:35.319 Then she kicked him out. 0:12:36.040 --> 0:12:38.640 I made him leave. He was gone for a long time. 0:12:40.040 --> 0:12:42.000 He went to jail because of us. 0:12:43.240 --> 0:12:46.480 In nineteen eighty seven, Carsonus found guilty of sodomy and 0:12:46.520 --> 0:12:49.760 aggravated sexual battery and sentenced to one year in jail 0:12:49.840 --> 0:12:53.720 and forum probation. According to court records, when Amy told 0:12:53.720 --> 0:12:56.800 her mother what her stepfather had done, Sandy believed her, 0:12:57.160 --> 0:12:59.760 But what happened next caused the relationship to break down. 0:13:01.360 --> 0:13:04.319 Did she kicked me out? We went for two years. 0:13:04.400 --> 0:13:07.199 We didn't talked, two years, not a word. 0:13:10.320 --> 0:13:12.400 So Amy was all of fourteen when she spoke up 0:13:12.400 --> 0:13:13.840 about being sexually abused. 0:13:14.760 --> 0:13:15.240 She told me. 0:13:15.280 --> 0:13:18.320 From that moment on, she studied her boyfriend Mike's house 0:13:18.480 --> 0:13:22.280 with his family, and that's how it went. I asked 0:13:22.280 --> 0:13:24.480 Sandy if she kicked Damie out after she told her 0:13:24.480 --> 0:13:27.360 about the abuse, and she swore Amy left of her 0:13:27.360 --> 0:13:27.880 own volition. 0:13:28.760 --> 0:13:30.960 No, I did not blame her. I believe it. 0:13:31.080 --> 0:13:35.199 Then Sandy didn't deny Carson's abuse, but had a different 0:13:35.280 --> 0:13:38.600 perspective on what happened after. But you didn't ask, really, 0:13:38.760 --> 0:13:40.800 so she finally ended up going to live with Mike 0:13:40.840 --> 0:13:43.599 in his house. And so you didn't ask for the 0:13:43.679 --> 0:13:45.840 lead because she felt like you did. 0:13:47.080 --> 0:13:51.280 No, no, no, okay. Mike's parents let Mike do whatever 0:13:51.320 --> 0:13:54.720 they wanted to do, and they had no curfew, no rules, 0:13:54.880 --> 0:13:59.439 no nothing. And you know, at fifteen, no curse, you, 0:13:59.600 --> 0:14:01.800 no rule. If you don't want to go to school, 0:14:01.840 --> 0:14:04.400 you don't go to school. It sounds really good. So 0:14:04.480 --> 0:14:08.319 she went and told my family that she couldn't live 0:14:08.360 --> 0:14:12.200 with us anymore because we were too strict, and she 0:14:12.280 --> 0:14:13.360 went to lived at mike house. 0:14:14.280 --> 0:14:18.199 Obviously the two have conflicting stories, but think about it. 0:14:18.440 --> 0:14:21.320 Amy was just a teenager. Sandy was the parent. If 0:14:21.360 --> 0:14:23.080 she had made a fuss and told Amy to get 0:14:23.080 --> 0:14:26.680 her ayes home, she likely would have instead. Mother and 0:14:26.800 --> 0:14:31.080 daughter didn't talk for two whole years. After Carson served 0:14:31.160 --> 0:14:33.680 us one year behind bars, Sandy allowed him to move 0:14:33.720 --> 0:14:36.560 back in with her and the rest of the kids. Sandy, 0:14:36.680 --> 0:14:38.600 who had gotten herself out of what she calls an 0:14:38.600 --> 0:14:42.840 overbearing household in Detroit, then lived with PTSD plus the 0:14:42.880 --> 0:14:45.360 loss of two kids, finally met a guy who treated 0:14:45.360 --> 0:14:48.360 her right, but lost contact with her daughter as a result. 0:14:49.320 --> 0:14:52.320 Her husband abused her daughter, and Sandy still welcomed him 0:14:52.320 --> 0:14:53.800 back after he served his time. 0:14:54.440 --> 0:14:58.120 He did his time, but I wasn't allowed to go back. 0:15:01.800 --> 0:15:05.160 My experients were caring, they were often around, but they 0:15:05.280 --> 0:15:10.080 also had expectations. Amy is telling this different than Sandy's. 0:15:10.480 --> 0:15:12.480 Amy says, my experients were more strict. 0:15:13.960 --> 0:15:15.840 You follow the rules, of course, you had to go 0:15:15.880 --> 0:15:19.600 to school. At school. Before I moved in with them, 0:15:19.640 --> 0:15:24.120 I missed fifty four d's and I got caught sleeping 0:15:24.120 --> 0:15:28.280 in the parking lot in the car, and Mom would 0:15:28.280 --> 0:15:30.680 write notes like Amy was absent because she went to 0:15:30.680 --> 0:15:33.280 get her lazy ass out of bed. They'd excuse it. 0:15:34.880 --> 0:15:37.880 And even though Amy recognized her generosity and taking her in, 0:15:38.160 --> 0:15:40.800 and even though she loved Mike, she still had a 0:15:40.840 --> 0:15:43.840 tough time following those rules to a tea or choosing 0:15:43.920 --> 0:15:46.680 to do the right thing, or even knowing what the 0:15:46.760 --> 0:15:47.720 right thing even was. 0:15:48.760 --> 0:15:51.000 I'm not an angel, don't get me wrong. I've done 0:15:51.080 --> 0:15:54.480 some shady shit. I've drained our bank accounts. I've stole 0:15:54.560 --> 0:15:58.240 from his parents. You know, I didn't know what it 0:15:58.280 --> 0:16:01.800 was like having money. So when I moved on with them, 0:16:01.840 --> 0:16:03.720 and you had all these things and if you wanted it, 0:16:03.720 --> 0:16:06.400 you got it, and things like, I didn't understand that 0:16:06.440 --> 0:16:08.440 you worked for it before you could get it. 0:16:09.160 --> 0:16:13.040 Eventually something started to shifting Amy. She recognized what was 0:16:13.080 --> 0:16:16.000 going on. This was stability. 0:16:16.640 --> 0:16:19.960 There was always food. I just remember that there's always 0:16:19.960 --> 0:16:22.880 food to be like, oh you can get seconds, or 0:16:22.920 --> 0:16:23.600 you can get more. 0:16:23.840 --> 0:16:24.040 You know. 0:16:24.120 --> 0:16:28.160 It was just a complete flip flop of everything that 0:16:28.200 --> 0:16:31.040 I had got used to growing up. It was weird 0:16:31.120 --> 0:16:35.960 at first because I didn't know. I didn't know what love, 0:16:36.480 --> 0:16:37.480 what it really felt like. 0:16:38.760 --> 0:16:40.000 And she stopped acting out. 0:16:40.520 --> 0:16:44.720 I didn't fight anymore. I didn't get in fights. It's 0:16:44.800 --> 0:16:48.640 just things just changed. So it was a blessing. 0:16:49.880 --> 0:16:53.000 Things got better for Amy, but her relationship with her 0:16:53.040 --> 0:17:01.800 mama remained fractured. So let me wrap my mind around this. 0:17:02.880 --> 0:17:05.840 Amy's mam married a serial killer who kidnapped and killed 0:17:05.840 --> 0:17:11.600 Amy's sister Susy and her nephew, Michael. Unlike Susanne, Amy lived, 0:17:11.880 --> 0:17:16.199 She survived, and she can tell her story. Amy escaped 0:17:16.240 --> 0:17:19.520 the clutches of her monster. What's striking him as the 0:17:19.600 --> 0:17:23.560 parallel like her sister Amy and during sexual abuse at 0:17:23.560 --> 0:17:26.520 the hands of her own stepfather, even though she grew 0:17:26.560 --> 0:17:28.639 up in a different place and even though she stayed 0:17:28.640 --> 0:17:36.199 with her mom, she dealt with similar demons. Things are 0:17:36.240 --> 0:17:39.080 really complicated. For several years between Sandy and her daughter, 0:17:39.640 --> 0:17:42.399 and then in twenty ten, Carson had a heart attack 0:17:42.440 --> 0:17:45.400 and died suddenly. He and Sandy were on a trip 0:17:45.440 --> 0:17:48.399 together in Michigan at the time. Sandy couldn't drive home, 0:17:48.640 --> 0:17:52.760 so Amy went to get her. Death opened a door 0:17:52.800 --> 0:17:55.920 for them. Amy tried to fill Carson's role. 0:17:56.560 --> 0:17:58.159 If she wanted something, he found a way to get 0:17:58.160 --> 0:18:00.879 it for. You know, whether it meant when extra jobs 0:18:01.000 --> 0:18:03.520 or barter room with somebody or whatever. He got it for. 0:18:04.640 --> 0:18:06.040 So Amy did the same thing. 0:18:06.960 --> 0:18:09.000 She is one of the first ones that a woe 0:18:09.080 --> 0:18:13.000 is me In a second, I fell for it for 0:18:13.040 --> 0:18:16.840 a long time. After Carson died, I paid her bills 0:18:18.160 --> 0:18:21.800 and forgot our bills, didn't pay our bills. 0:18:22.280 --> 0:18:24.960 By this point, Amy was about forty and married to Mike, 0:18:25.040 --> 0:18:28.840 her high school sweetheart, so you know, it. 0:18:28.760 --> 0:18:31.679 Almost cost me a marriage. And then he was like, 0:18:31.800 --> 0:18:32.440 you gotta stop. 0:18:33.160 --> 0:18:37.160 That's when Sandy and Amy stopped talking again. During that time, 0:18:37.200 --> 0:18:40.240 the FBI agents knocked on Sandy's door. They asked for 0:18:40.320 --> 0:18:42.639 DNA samples so they could figure out if she was Susie. 0:18:42.680 --> 0:18:49.240 Saveka's his mom. You know this story. This is where 0:18:49.280 --> 0:18:52.560 Sandy realized Susie had been killed by Floyd. For the 0:18:52.560 --> 0:18:55.600 first few weeks after Sandy found out, Amy just blew 0:18:55.640 --> 0:18:58.119 her off, didn't believe that she was telling her the 0:18:58.119 --> 0:19:01.920 truth about Susie. She realized there was an entire book 0:19:01.920 --> 0:19:05.679 about her sister that Sandy wasn't lying. Her sister was 0:19:05.680 --> 0:19:08.200 out there for two decades, and Amy had no idea 0:19:09.280 --> 0:19:10.880 someone could have saved Susie. 0:19:11.840 --> 0:19:17.120 It made me so mad to know that she was alive. 0:19:18.560 --> 0:19:20.879 We knew she had gotten kidnapped. MoMA always said she 0:19:20.880 --> 0:19:23.399 got kidnapped, but because I couldn't remember, I was like, whatever, 0:19:24.160 --> 0:19:27.640 you're so full shit, whatever, because she lies a lot. 0:19:27.920 --> 0:19:29.840 She's always lied a lot my whole life. 0:19:31.119 --> 0:19:33.520 This was a turning point. Amy started to talk to 0:19:33.600 --> 0:19:36.440 her mom again. It was a tragic way to reunite 0:19:36.440 --> 0:19:40.200 a family, but it is a silver lining. Sandy had 0:19:40.200 --> 0:19:42.200 to make peace with the fact that she lost a daughter, 0:19:43.080 --> 0:19:46.040 but in this moment of utter agony, she was reunited 0:19:46.080 --> 0:19:50.280 with another. Then, in twenty nineteen, the family found the 0:19:50.280 --> 0:19:54.880 biggest silver lining in the whole story. Steve Patterson was alive. 0:19:55.800 --> 0:19:58.720 I feel a little guilty because I didn't get to 0:19:58.720 --> 0:20:00.359 grow up with him I didn't get to p protect 0:20:00.440 --> 0:20:04.560 him or show him how to do things, or you know, 0:20:04.720 --> 0:20:06.560 things a big sister would do. 0:20:09.320 --> 0:20:12.159 Now Amy's in her fifties and Sandy's in her seventies. 0:20:12.840 --> 0:20:14.920 They only live about an hour apart from each other. 0:20:15.800 --> 0:20:19.480 I forgave, I forgave, I forgive, I forgave, And Steven says, 0:20:19.520 --> 0:20:22.840 do you talk to Trim like you? I almost every day. 0:20:23.920 --> 0:20:26.520 I just saw her yesterday. I mean, you would think 0:20:26.640 --> 0:20:30.680 we were a normal TV family or whatever. Like nobody 0:20:30.680 --> 0:20:32.159 knows the dark secrets. 0:20:33.520 --> 0:20:36.320 Amy has that essence about her. You just kind of 0:20:36.359 --> 0:20:39.840 feel comfortable, like she's seen some shit and doesn't judge 0:20:39.880 --> 0:20:40.879 you whatsoever. 0:20:41.640 --> 0:20:45.080 I love my mom, I really do. Do I like 0:20:45.160 --> 0:20:45.960 her sometimes? 0:20:46.080 --> 0:20:46.119 No? 0:20:47.600 --> 0:20:51.480 Do I like the choices she's made some? No, but 0:20:51.560 --> 0:20:55.359 I love her. She's still my mom. 0:20:55.560 --> 0:20:58.520 Amy's lived long enough to realize everybody's done something they 0:20:58.520 --> 0:21:01.399 ain't proud of. After all, Amy used to beat up 0:21:01.440 --> 0:21:04.359 her siblings. She put her marriage on the line. Amy 0:21:04.440 --> 0:21:07.080 is mature enough to realize she's not perfect, and neither 0:21:07.119 --> 0:21:07.679 is their mama. 0:21:08.240 --> 0:21:09.159 Am I mad at her? 0:21:09.280 --> 0:21:09.520 Yes? 0:21:10.000 --> 0:21:13.600 Hell, yeah, I'm pissed. I just can't walk away. You know, 0:21:14.520 --> 0:21:17.399 after everything I've been through, I cannot walk away. 0:21:17.680 --> 0:21:18.560 And you forgive her? 0:21:19.920 --> 0:21:23.080 I think. I don't know if I forgive her or 0:21:23.200 --> 0:21:26.399 just to accept her. I'm a grown woman, I have 0:21:26.560 --> 0:21:30.120 children of mine. I've seen shit, been through shit. Everybody 0:21:30.160 --> 0:21:33.119 has a past. Everybody has a past. 0:21:38.040 --> 0:21:40.000